So, what's the point of using Macs as a better Linux, if they are continuing to strip out the parts of Linux that are useful? Might as well use WSL or Cygwin and save a bunch of money.
... but you have to install these in Linux as well? Python, ruby, etc are not required for Linux to run and for a long time we’re not installed by default (I don’t know if they are these days because the regular fresh install dance for Linux just has me autopilot through installation of all the things that are inexplicably not included, which historically included python).
There are many reasons that people choose to use a Mac, mostly when people say “Linux” in this context they mean: posix shell, and the ability to run most other posix software (eg most Linux commandline apps).
It’s not because it has every interpreter on earth installed by default. In fact as others have said the current status is that the system installs of python and ruby are old because updating them breaks software. The solution is to make them not part of the OS so if software does want to use an interpreter they don’t lock the shipping version again.
Linux doesn’t have this problem because it’s assumed that your update process comes from a central repository of all the apps so if you (say) update python you also pull recompiled updates of all the apps you have that depend on python. Software installation on a Mac is generally not all from one source, and even if it were Apple doesn’t have the ability to recompile other developer’s apps.
You do realise that the reason these things are being stripped out is because macOS includes hideously old versions for backwards compatibility with older software that depended on them, right?
There is no real loss here; no sane users would use the built-in versions due to their age. It has been preferable to download and install newer versions for a long time, this changes nothing.
And if it's fine to spend a tiny amount of effort to install WSL or Cygwin on Windows, then it's surely also no effort at all to install Homebrew or MacPorts (or other) — with the benefit of not working in a contrived, separate environment.
This comment betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of modern developer workflows in macOS and feels just slightly like a troll comment from someone who likely doesn't use macOS to begin with.
> And if it's fine to spend a tiny amount of effort to install WSL or Cygwin on Windows
Well, plenty of people use macOS precisely because it was like a more consistent Linux out-of-the-box. Apple will lose a ton of mindshare; indeed, they are losing a ton of mindshare. They've been slowly deprecating things for years, now, and leaving the rest to rot, and open source developers are increasingly drifting away.
About 10 years ago macOS and Apple hardware started becoming the preferred kit for open source developers, and this showed--Apple kit was seen everywhere in Silicon Valley and eventually became the default kit given out by big software companies. That was all because of macOS' Unix personality. That's all going to change over the next several years.
I was surprised when WSL 1.0 debuted. By making Linux _native_ on Windows, it solidified Linux' position as the dominate server-side platform. I'm not at all surprised they're ditching it for WSL 2.0, which is just Linux in a VM with a networked filesystem, precisely what people have been doing for about 15 years, keeping it solidly second class--like running Windows on macOS.
I personally believe that the reason why Apple is losing mindshare among some software developers, particularly in Silicon Valley and in academia, has less to do with particular choices regarding macOS and has more to do with Apple's hardware situation, particularly regarding the keyboards on Apple's recent laptops. The keyboard situation has led some developers to consider alternatives to the MacBook Pro, which often necessitates needing to consider non-Mac alternatives. PC manufacturers have been offering some really compelling alternatives to the MacBook Pro such as the Microsoft Surface line of tablets, the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon, and the Dell XPS 13 and 15, among other computers. Those frustrated with Apple's long delays in releasing updated Mac Mini and Mac Pro models have also considered switching to PCs, if they haven't already.
On top of this, the introduction of WSL in Windows 10 has made Windows a compelling option for many people who use macOS as a Unix that doesn't have the driver issues of Linux/*BSD and happens to support Microsoft Office, Adobe Creative Suite, and other commercial software packages. Provided that they are not hardcore Unix systems programmers, if they want a Unix-like userland with support for Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Suite, why not try WSL? Despite my preference for macOS, I've used WSL on my work-issued computer as well as on my personal Dell XPS 15, and I must say, I'm very impressed with it. No more having to mess around with PuTTY or with virtual machines to do Unix work on Windows. While I am personally more productive in macOS than in Windows even with WSL, I know quite a few former Mac users who are very happy with Windows 10, thanks to WSL.
Now, software engineers who primarily work with Apple frameworks and technologies probably won't be satisfied with Windows. But software engineers who use macOS primarily as a convenient Unix with support for commercial software packages might want to give Windows 10 and WSL a try. Now, personally I'm still turned off by certain lingering "Windowsisms" (insert gripes about telemetry, ads, mandatory updates, and the UI here), but for many people Windows 10 is now a compelling alternative to the Mac.
Not that I'm providing any citations myself, but I'd like to see some evidence that macOS is losing mindshare because it doesn't bundle this, that, or the other by default anymore. macOS will remain a consistent UNIX out of the box, more consistent than Linux, as it still bundles the FreeBSD userland, their own additions, and make it simpler than ever get started developing — you can install Xcode from the App Store or just the command line tools with ``xcode-select --install``. Things like Homebrew and MacPorts can even install those for you if they're missing.
When using macOS, nobody is thinking "fantastic, I can't wait to use these hideously outdated versions of things" — it's a straight trip to Homebrew or MacPorts to sort things out, always, because the built-in version is categorically never the version people write scripts against. Nobody could depend on such old versions of Perl, Python, and Ruby because they were so ridiculously out of date.
Deprecating things that should already have been deprecated is not going to stop people preferring the experience that macOS still affords to developers. I don't see how that's going to change, there's no evidence to support this; if macOS has been losing popularity amongst developers, the butterfly mechanism and Touch Bar on the MacBook Pros has more to answer for than macOS itself which remains solid, reliable, and the best way to get stuff done on UNIX without the interminable fiddlyness of Linux.
Also, I think your timing and causations back to front; the release of WSL didn't solidify anything, it was already well known that Linux was the dominant server-side platform long before. WSL was and is Microsoft's way of bringing Unix-style tooling and development to the desktop, something macOS had done long before. I'd argue that WSL is still a VM of sorts; underneath it all, it's still a slimmed down version of Ubuntu that remains separate from other Windows processes. That WSL 2 will properly move into a VM will make that existing separation clearer, I believe — and yet, I can't help but think Docker on Windows is a more attractive offering in terms of flexibility, anyway.
I think it's fine. Linux distros don't typically come with this stuff, but they do come with package manager (unlike OSX), but it's nbd to install one.
I recently switched to linux after 10+ years of MacBook Pros because I'm disappointed in the hardware quality post 2015. I used to die-hard argue that they were worth the price tag, but now I can't do so in good faith so I got a Dell XPS about 6 months back and love it. Cheaper and superior hardware. There is a bit of learning curve for using linux as an every day work machine, and there is a couple days of setup to get things working just right and achieve parity with OSX features I love (quick view, screenshots, keyboard shortcuts, etc), but once I got everything configured I have no complaints.
It will be two lines of code and two minutes to install the interpreter you need, and you will no longer be tied to a global, possibly ancient system version.
Likewise, you won't have your own installed applications break on update because (for example) python2.7 was EoL and dropped from the OS.
Installing your own instance of python or ruby should be two lines and about two minutes assuming a decent internet connection.
