ASF : Apache Software Foundation
EC : Executive Committee
EE : Enterprise Edition
JCP : Java Community Process
JSR : Java Specification Request
JSPA : Java Specification Participation Agreement
SE : Standard Edition
TCK : Test Compatibility Kit
We remember when you used to be cool. Now you spend all of your time drinking and hanging out with lawyers. We are leaving and taking the dog and all of the CDs with us.
We are breaking up, except this time, it's not me, it's you
-Kicking ass and taking names
You said you wanted to be friends, but Oracle just wants us as fans. We need more in a relationship.
If a hypothetical Java Servlet API v4.0 would be released they could still make Tomcat be compliant with it.
On the other hand Tomcat is very widely used in the not-quite-huge-enterprise companies and it is obviously helpful for a spec if all implementers can agree on some common ground before it is written. ECMA probably wouldn't see a point in doing ES5 if Microsoft and Mozilla would not talk to them.
What do you think would happen in order for a library to be certified (passed a certain TCK) would require to pay Oracle a huge amount of money?
Oracle can get more money from IBM, RedHat, SpringSource (SS uses a modified Tomcat for their tcServer) and a slew bunch of other companies.
Whether they'll do it or not, I don't know.
FOU: field-of-use restrictions (in the TCK license).
Now the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that Oracle is eliminating the VM's on mobile not because they have competency there (Ellison is smart enough know it would be a forgone battle to try to now edge in between IOS and Android) but rather to clear the market for a sympathetic partner that will split the purse. And I think that partner is none other than Apple.
I find the timing of Apple relinquishing the JDK back to Oracle timely and suspicious further both Steve and Larry know that the other has significant competencies is separate, independent, non-overlapping, but complementary markets. If the mobile market it seceded to a closed vertical vendor they are free to chose who become the infrastructure to support the new global mobile network. I think the land has already been divided up and now it is just time to play the battle out.
Having Apache on the EC (Executive Committee) strengthened Java by giving an official voice to the (large) open source Java community. This was useful for Java because Apache often agitated to make sure specifications were licensed under terms that are compatible with open source implementations. Open Source implementations have kept Java competitive with .NET in terms of price, and many specifications have grown out of open source Java projects.
The Eclipse organisation remains on the EC, so Oracle can point to them as a voice for open source. However, Eclipse is different to Apache in that it is primarily a pay-to-play organisation, whilst Apache is a meritocracy.
In terms of specifications themselves (JSRs), Apache will no longer automatically have a representative. Individual experts can still be invited, but Apache's withdrawal (as well as that of people like Doug Lea & Bob Lee) makes it less likely experts will want to serve on a JSR committee.
This isn't related to the discussion at hand, but can you elaborate on this?
The Eclipse Foundation board is mainly representatives from companies who have paid the substantial "strategic member" fee.
To that end, our representative has informed the JCP's Program Management Office of our resignation,
effective immediately. As such, the ASF is removing all official representatives from any
and all JSRs. In addition, we will refuse any renewal of our JCP membership and, of course,
our EC position.
That just sounds like Java is really bleeding now. Anyone knows how significant the real impact of leaving representatives on the JSRs is?
The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical problems. JavaME is dying and Spring showed JavaEE how things should be done so they are catching up now.
It's very hard to get momentum behind a free software project on .NET, and once you do Microsoft and their shill army kills it by reinvention, heavy promotion of their vaporware, and badmouthing the competition.
It's really hard to work against the culture, and the dominant .NET culture sees Redmond as the One True Source for anything worth using.
Honestly, as someone who has no interest in Microsoft technologies and distrusts Mono, but who likes the idea of a batteries-included, CTO-friendly, cross-platform, JIT-compiling VM with a huge userbase and oodles of libraries, I am feeling a little lost now. Not that Java is going to die quickly -- I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years to come -- but it's starting to look like Java is a platform with a lot less future than I expected.
First let me disclaimer that this is totally my perspective on the subject but as a decision maker in a company that is now looking to move on and believes that this is the fatal shot to Java, I wanted to say that for us we feel that with the JVM shenanigans that any technology that runs on the JVM is in danger of Oracle's legal reach. After kicking this one around a lot among our peers we are hopeful that a language that run on the LLVM makes it to the forefront as a replacement.
I don't know what you mean by that. Just have a look at what JSRs JDK 7 consists of:
Now imagine some of Apaches representatives were spec leads on some JSRs. Thats a serious threat to a JSR then. Spec leads are not easy to find. Participators in a JSR can go with important knowledge on the topic, too.
Of more concern will be Apache's attitude to new development in Java. Will they continue to use it and to make cool new stuff in Java, or is this a breaking point for them in terms of using the tech?
The Apache Software Foundation concludes that that JCP is not an open
specification process - that Java specifications are proprietary technology
that must be licensed directly from the spec lead under whatever terms the
spec lead chooses
Huge loss for the JCP either way.
Heck, they are in the same league as IBM when speaking of patents. Only trolls have the balls to go after them.
How does the MS CLR get around this issue? Surely their VM is infringing on some of this pool? Do they now licence from Oracle?
If only it WAS this simple... this hypothetical situation would be awesome!
“The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.” (Ayn Rand)
Seriously, what did we actually think Oracle was going to do with Java? Get all open and community-minded and crap?
Zooming out. What are the biggest technologies being affected by this, and what are the alternatives available to the creators and developers of those technologies?
Would we end up in a situation where someone like Google would have to revamp their entire Android runtime?
"So much traffic/interest in the ASF leaving the JCP that blogs.apache.org is wonky. Oh yeah, it's Java. #JCPIsDead"
Edit: the blog post is back up.