I was actually talking about Trump and his rhetoric vs actions, which don't support his stated goal, however you apparently agree with him so I guess take it however you want.
> These are entirely different issues and I want strong border security regardless of foreign policy.
You keep saying that they're entirely different issues, but they're absolutely related. It's like if you get a cold because you went out in the winter in just a shirt and then saying that the cold you caught is unrelated to you not being warmly dressed. No, these are absolutely related. Just like the migrant crisis in the EU is related to its foreign policy blunders, so is the US crisis related to decades of meddling in Latin America. If you keep ignoring that, we can't move on.
> Venezuela was doing fine before the socialist policies that bankrupted the nation.
The situation is complex, yes. there's corruption, there's the issue of them having not diversified the economy away from oil, so when the price crashed in 2014, trouble started. Aggravating all this are the crippling U.S. sanctions, which are responsible for 40,000+ civilians not having the medicine etc. they need and dying as a result according to a recent study, the U.N. has also expressed that the sanctions mostly punish civilians and amount to a medieval siege.
The notion that Venezuela was "doing fine" before Chavez/Maduro is laughable. The reason Chavez was elected in a free and fair election, was precisely because Venezuela was not doing fine for large swaths of people. There was widespread poverty and illiteracy, something that was slowly being eradicated before the 2014 crisis. You may want to read "Venezuela Before Chávez: Anatomy of an Economic Collapse", it analyzes the economic situation fairly in detail. "The Shock Doctrine" is excellent for how South America more widely was doing in these times. Not a pretty picture.
Yes I want strong border security. A nation is only as strong as its borders.
Everything in the world is related but can still stay separate topics. Foreign policy may have affected other countries but that doesn't mean it's illegal immigrants are suddenly allowed, which is what we're discussing. Just because traffic lights can increase traffic doesn't mean you illegally run the red lights. Just because health insurance is expensive doesn't mean you can steal supplies from the hospital. All related, all different.
Venezuela wasn't perfect before, but it's a whole lot worse now isn't it? Socialism is attractive as can be seen in the rise of the left because it promises everything to everyone without any sense of reality on how such things are provided. Unfortunately they paid the price and have a long road to recovery now because socialism leads to catastrophe and ruin every single time.
> foreign policy may have affected other countries but that doesn't mean it's illegal immigrants are suddenly allowed
It doesn't mean they're suddenly allowed, but it does mean that you have no (moral) leg to stand on when complaining about how much illegal immigrants are trying to cross the border. Actions have (unintended) consequences. There's blowback.
You could have had strong borders, no need for a wall, much fewer agents and no justification for any of the brute tactics deployed, (which there isn't a justification for now either, but would be clear to everybody), if you stopped meddling aboard.
It's not just Venezuela, it's your War On Drugs, it's your financing of the Contras, supporting military takeovers in Chile, Argentina, Syria, Libya etc.
> Venezuela wasn't perfect before, but it's a whole lot worse now isn't it?
No it's not. It's not clear cut like that, however much would you like it to be. As I said before, prior to 2014, poverty & homelessness was decreasing & illiteracy was eliminated under Chavez.
Now Maduro is no Chavez and since 2014 when oil prices crashed, the oil dependent economy collapsed, (they should have diversified when oil prices were high and make themselves a lot less import dependent, they failed to do that), and inflation skyrocketed. Since 2015, when Obama decided Venezuela poses a national security risk to the US, (which it credibly doesn't), the crippling sanctions accelerated the job the oil crash started. Since Trump took office, the sanctions were increased to an even more crippling level, making it hard to import even medial supplies.
> Socialism is attractive as can be seen in the rise of the left because it promises everything to everyone without any sense of reality on how such things are provided
That's not what socialism is, but I don't expect you to know much about it, since you seem to have strong preconceived notions, without being interested in any actual facts.
It's worth noting that Venezuela's economy is actually not socialist, despite what Fox News would tell you. Large swaths of the economy are owned by private capital, who actually play a big role in the currency manipulation responsible for the current hyperinflation as well. Within the broader political debate, it's also worth noting that there's not just economics at play here, but racial politics as well. Notice how the vast majority of the opposition is white, despite that not being representative of the Venezuelan society? Wonder why? Also notice how they're dressed etc. It's a bit of a clue that there's a certain constituency within Venezuela they represent, rather than the population as a whole.
Also, it's interesting how the US is so strongly against any Socialist policy, (still no universal health coverage for example), yet when American financial institutions, car makers etc. are personally irresponsible and fail on the free market, they're being bailed out with public money. Is that succeeding on the free market? And didn't they got themselves into the situation they were in playing the Capitalist game?
You see, no system is perfect, which is why I am personally in favor of a combination of the good aspects of both, simply screaming Socialism == bad is childish, intellectually dishonest and incredibly simplistic way to look at the world.
Bearing all that in mind, I'll reiterate: Venezuela is actually not a Socialist economy. It has a large state and a large private sector. There was no revolution like in Cuba, where everything was transferred under state control, (arguably, the Cuban economy is doing considerably better right now, than the Venezuelan one).
As for the sanctions, why? If the system is so bad, let it collapse on its own on the 'free market', no? But that's not the point is it? The point is to get the assets back under U.S. influence ASAP, which sanctions would greatly accelerate. If the administration truly believed the system in Venezuela is completely unsustainable, there's no need for crippling sanctions. It would simply fail on its own, no need to nudge it, (same goes for the Cuban sanctions btw).
Within the U.S., there are more homeless people than there is the entire population of Venezuela, Flint still has poisonous water, there are cities and areas within the U.S. that have 3rd world-grade infrastructure. You just don't hear about that every day on the evening news.
> socialism leads to catastrophe and ruin every single time
Not more so than free market capitalism does, in fact socialism wouldn't exist if capitalism was so perfect. The fact is that you need a mix of both, no one or the other in their purest form works well.
The Nordic countries seem to have figured out the right blend, which is why their model is never seriously discussed by the right in the U.S. For that, they'd had to confront real facts, instead of just strawmaning and that has proven difficult, because the U.S doesn't even have the 'socialist' policies that have been proven in other Western countries, like single payer, paid vacation, maternity leave etc.
Lastly, before you respond with some PR nonsense about human rights etc. take a look at Yemen and the U.S. role there first, OK?
Your comments have devolved into personal attacks on morality and stances I've never made. Since you're contributing to the billions in poverty around the world, you also don't have a moral legal to stand on. See how unproductive that is? We'll leave it there.
I was actually talking about Trump and his rhetoric vs actions, which don't support his stated goal, however you apparently agree with him so I guess take it however you want.
> These are entirely different issues and I want strong border security regardless of foreign policy.
You keep saying that they're entirely different issues, but they're absolutely related. It's like if you get a cold because you went out in the winter in just a shirt and then saying that the cold you caught is unrelated to you not being warmly dressed. No, these are absolutely related. Just like the migrant crisis in the EU is related to its foreign policy blunders, so is the US crisis related to decades of meddling in Latin America. If you keep ignoring that, we can't move on.
> Venezuela was doing fine before the socialist policies that bankrupted the nation.
The situation is complex, yes. there's corruption, there's the issue of them having not diversified the economy away from oil, so when the price crashed in 2014, trouble started. Aggravating all this are the crippling U.S. sanctions, which are responsible for 40,000+ civilians not having the medicine etc. they need and dying as a result according to a recent study, the U.N. has also expressed that the sanctions mostly punish civilians and amount to a medieval siege.
The notion that Venezuela was "doing fine" before Chavez/Maduro is laughable. The reason Chavez was elected in a free and fair election, was precisely because Venezuela was not doing fine for large swaths of people. There was widespread poverty and illiteracy, something that was slowly being eradicated before the 2014 crisis. You may want to read "Venezuela Before Chávez: Anatomy of an Economic Collapse", it analyzes the economic situation fairly in detail. "The Shock Doctrine" is excellent for how South America more widely was doing in these times. Not a pretty picture.