"nobody lays on their deathbed wishing they would have spent _less_ time with their family"
I keep seeing this idea repeated time after time, yet I've never seen any formal study of this issue. I know this idea has been asserted by some people with very large followings. Stephen Covey, in his book "The 7 Habits Of Highly Effective People" asserts nearly the identical sentiment that you've expressed here.
All I can say is, from what I've seen, this is just one of those things that varies a great deal from one family to another, and from one person to another. I know that both my mother and my father keenly felt the strain of having children, and both of them wished they'd had more time and money to advance their careers. My dad was lucky enough to be successful as a commercial photographer, but increasingly after he turned 50 he wondered why he never broke through to the top ranks of photography. He made good money but he never became famous. He thought, not unreasonably, that if he had less demands from his family, then he might have more money and energy to reach the top ranks of his field. When he was in his 70s he made several attempts to get into the top galleries in New York City, but he only had one small success in that regard. He died of cancer at the age of 79. Since I stayed with him every day during the last month of his life, I can tell you without a doubt that when he was on his deathbed he did wish that he had had more time for his career - a tradeoff that could only have been purchased by him spending less time with his family.
From what I can see, my dad is hardly an isolated case. When I talk to my friends, and to people older than myself, what I hear, again and again, is disappointment. Many people, perhaps most people, feel that they have somehow failed to live up to their true potential. At least among my friends, most feel that having kids has imposed a heavy sacrifice on them. I can not think of a single one of my friends who hasn't thought, at some point, that they might be much more successful if they did not have kids.
More than that, not everyone is happy with their family life. If you suggest that family life is always rewarding, in a country where 45% of all marriages end in divorce (I'm using the USA as an example here) then you are simply in denial of reality.
I think this is an issue that at least deserves a frank, honest discussion, especially on a forum like Hacker News, where we all expect honesty regarding the tradeoffs of the entrepreneurial life. This is not the right place for sentimental nonsense about the joyous wonders of family. This is a place for bluntness and honesty.
Your attitude about "buy enough downvotes to make this comment disappear forever" is really worrisome.
This is much better than your original comment which was muddied by a grand pronouncement about kids and startups. In this comment you acknowledge individual differences, and you take some conventional wisdom to task. In the former comment you jump up on a soap box and proclaim what people with kids should do.
So first off, as a #1 employee in a startup that had a baby right during the early stage, I'm living proof of the fallacy of your judgement. I pull off the work-life balance thing pretty well (stay-at-home mom helps a lot), and my effectiveness at work is not diminished. The fact is that commitments at home give me an ongoing sense of urgency that keeps my overall productivity up without inducing burnout the way 18-hour days do. And in any case, the variance between individuals is far greater than the variance between hours worked. You'd be a fool to hire lesser talent just because they're willing to work 80 hours a week.
More to the point about this last comment, you're absolutely right to think about future regrets. Having a family is a big sacrifice, and it will not necessarily make you happy. On the other hand, slaving away at startups, even if you find financial success may not make you happy either. Today's media culture (of which silicon valley porn is a significant part these days) programs our ego with all kinds of beliefs about happiness: if I'm rich I'll be happy, if I'm famous I'll be happy, if my talent is recognized I'll be happy, but the belief doesn't make them true. The sad truth may be that nothing will make you happy, and you are destined to be miserable, or vice-versa. It may be that the greatest accomplishments require a certain discontent, and in fact you care more about the accomplishment than the happiness. It's a mess that you have to sort out for yourself. Anyone preaching how others should live their life is invested in a particular belief system that may or may not apply to you. When you are making these kinds of decisions I think deep soul searching is the only way to go. I wouldn't place too much stock in other people's regrets, because there's no way you can sort out the baggage underlying someone's stated beliefs to really get a read on how it might apply to you. Instead your only recourse is to go with your gut. This is the ultimate gift and curse of living in a free society.
I realize that my point is unpopular, however, it remains true: if you do not have children, then you will have more time for your startup.
The fact that this idea is unpopular does not make it untrue.
You can downvote it as much as you want, but it still remains true.
This is Hacker News. This is forum for bluntness and truthfulness when it comes to the entrepreneurial life. We should not shy away from a truth just because it makes us uncomfortable. This is a forum where we all expect frank conversations about the trade-offs that we face when we pursue the opportunities presented by a startup.
If you have children, then you will have less time for your startup. It's as simple as that.
First of all, you're talking right past my whole point and just restating your original point, which is pretty disrespectful of the time I put in crafting a balanced response.
You claim you want frank discussion, but then you reduce the whole debate to a time equation. The problem is that it's only as simple if you measure success by hours worked. As someone who has pulled many many 100 hour weeks, I can tell you that I'm more effective in 40 hours now then I used to be in 80. This may not be true for everybody (I'm not trying to tell anyone how to live their lives), but for me, I draw energy and inspiration from the downtime. I'm in touch with real human beings outside the echo chamber, giving me insight into building products that normal people will buy. When I get to the office, most of the time I know I have only until 6pm to get my todo list done. When I was single and working 100 hour weeks, it was easy to get caught on tangents, or work when over-tired, because hey I have 12 hours on Saturday and 12 hours on Sunday to catch up.
Limiting your work hours can be constraint that leads to increased creativity and effectiveness. It also creates a buffer when you really do need to put in extra effort to make a critical deadline. Time spent away from work lets your subconscious process things and come to more optimal solutions.
I'm not denying that there is a correlation between highly successful entrepreneurs and long work hours, but it's a fallacy to treat it as a causal relationship. How many people work 24/7 in silicon valley and never get anywhere? A lot more than you think because no one is telling their stories. The focus should be on efficiency, creative thinking, intelligence and above all persistence. It's possible to jeopardize all of those by forsaking work-life balance.
I'd like to buy enough upvotes to make this comment appear forever.
This is a fantastic post. I have found that at moments with friends and family when the happy platitudes are stripped away, whether through drunkenness, circumstance, or just plain frank discussion - this is the sentiment that often shows itself.
You would like for my comment to disappear forever? I find it worrisome that your attitude exists on Hacker News. This is suppose to be a forum for frank, honest discussions about the life of entrepreneurs. I think my point is valid: the early phase of a startup is uniquely stressful. That should not be the part of your life that overlaps with having a child. We are talking about maybe 2 or 3 years of your life, or maybe 4 at a stretch. Why not have kids before that, or after that? Why have kids just then, during what you know will be the most stressful years of your whole life? I'd be curious to know what your reasoning is. Of course, if you can buy enough down votes to make my comment disappear forever, then you won't need to address the point that I raise.
"We are talking about maybe 2 or 3 years of your life, or maybe 4 at a stretch."
I'm on startup #4 in 8 years. Every entrepreneur that I know is as hopelessly addicted to startups as I am. (Granted, there may be self-selection at work.)
Remember: Groupon going from $0 - $3B in two years is the exception. For every Andrew Mason, there are 10,000 chumps like me who spend 10 or 15 or 20 years at a startup. And the very nature of a startup means that you don't know when the "uniquely stressful" period is going to be over.
So the advice to have kids before or after some special 2-year Goldilocks zone strikes me as very naive. Your average startup is far too messy for that kind of precision life planning.
Because your comment reeks of "startup romanticism", not startup practice.
The most successful "Startup Guys™" that I know aren't the ones that spend 23 hours at the office and an hour commuting. They're the same guys that appreciate you staying late, but understand the importance of a life outside of their project and encourage you to get out of the office.
It is unhealthy for you and it is unhealthy for your company.
What's the point of being the boss if you can't take advantage of being the boss? Having enough money to live on an island is worthless if you don't get to spend any time on the island.
"Because your comment reeks of "startup romanticism", not startup practice."
Surely you realize that I could make the same kind of assertion about what you have written? I could write: "You comment reeks of sentimental notions about family life, not the actual reality of family life."
If you want to argue that all people, everywhere, enjoy their families then you are simply in denial of reality.
If you want to deny the fact that some people are deeply bitter about the sacrifices they have made for their children, then you are simply running away from the truth.
As for the startup romanticism that you mention, I've been working with startups since 2002, which is long enough to have some idea about what habits work over the long term, and what habits do not work over the long term. From what I've seen, it is a bad idea to have a child during the first 2 or 3 years of a startup. You can have kids before then, or after then, but not right during the most intense phase of the startup.
A startup is still a job, and a job is still only part of your life.
There are jobs before and jobs after, but nobody lays on their deathbed wishing they would have spent _less_ time with their family.