I made the mistake of joining a Goodlife gym in Canada many moons ago...
The place was disgusting. Always crowded. Mould growing in the bathrooms. Stunk very badly, etc...
So I stopped going regularly... and one day I was in the area I decided to stop in and cancel my membership.
"Oh sorry, you'll need to make an appointment with management in order to cancel."
"OK, is a manager in right now?"
"Yes, the manager is in but I was told not to disturb her right now."
"OK, well can you tell her a customer is waiting paitiently to cancel his account?"
"No, sorry, I am not allowed to disturb her. You're going to need to make an appointment and come back."
So I did that...
And about 3 weeks later I went in at the agreed upon time to cancel my subscription and I was just sitting... waiting... for over 1 hour...
Right beside a poor old lady that was trying to cancel her subscription as well!!!
She was overly polite and was dealing with this overagressive meathead trying to keep her locked into the service...
"I hate coming here... I never come... I never should have signed up... I just want to cancel..."
"But do you have any friends that might want to take on your subscription? It's at a discounted rate and you might be able to help them out by transferring it over to them."
"No, I do know know anyone who wants to come here."
"Ok, let me go talk to my manager about this."
And he left for like 20 minutes and came back and gave her the gears again.
When my turn came... I just said "I'm moving to england and I don't know a single person here who might want to absorb my contract".
It was a total lie... but it was the only answer that would get me out of there in under 10 minutes.
Companies abusing politeness really are terrible to society.
The best thing to do is issue a chargeback. You tell the credit card company that you 1) tried to cancel, and they wouldn't do it; and 2) you did not get any service from them since you tried to cancel.
They have to pay you back AND THEY GET CHARGED an additional $20-$30 that your credit card company takes from them as punishment.
Please don't abuse chargebacks unless the merchant deserves it, though.
Maybe in Canada but in USA you have companies like "ABC Financing" (real name) that process majority of membership for most of the gyms I ever visited, including LA Fitness, Golds Gym, Balleys Total Fitness.
The way it works (cause I tried) is that you call (or in bank to dispute membership) and guess what? they made you wait on the line/ in the branch until they contact ABC customer support that knows exactly what membership you have when you have it etc. They were even able to fax over my photo (!!) to the banker to prove it wasn't a fraud. I was actually quite happy because I need that kind of chargeback service for my companies when anyone can call (and does) and usually says "my child ordered this". Unfortunately banks will only work this way with merchants pushing hundreds of millions of dollars in memberships, as I was told by a friend of mine who works for Bank of America.
I don't know in Canada, but in USA most membership programs are continue to be a cancer on our society (despite the fact its easier to dispute transaction than it was years ago) and most banks will help in this bad behavior because they don't want too many disputes for credit card companies they underwrite and represent.
Oof, that seems like a bad thing to do in America. In the EU thanks to SEPA regulations banks allow you do withdraw direct withdrawal consent at any time luckily.
This is actually not always reliable, many larger institutions are able to re-enable the DD and continue charging you. I had this with my council tax after I moved out and cancelled it from my end. There are many complaints about the same behaviour from phone companies, insurance companies, and others.
Fitness First did this to me, probably a genuine error their side that they didn't cancel my account properly but I'd cancelled the DD with my bank and it re-appeared. I contacted the bank about it and they offered to put a lock on my account so I have to be contacted about any future Direct Debits which seems like it should be the default.
If I cancelled without formally ending our contract (with their demanded appointment in order to cancel)... they would have dinged my credit score with a complaint of non-payment for an agreed upon contract.
Charging people who do not need the service and not letting them cancel looks like fraud, certainly not a voluntary transaction of two willing individuals. I do not see any problem from the point of libertarian for the state to protect the right of a person who does not consent to a business relationship anymore to withdraw from it - just as it is true for any other relationship. Just as libertarians would not object to the laws allowing people to leave a job or divorce, they should not object - from purely libertarian grounds - to laws that allow people to dissolve business relationship without undue burden and involuntary money transactions.
Now, if the gym in question would fully inform the person that they have nearly impossible cancellation procedure and obtained informed prior consent, that would be different. But that never happens.
Made sense until the last paragraph and everything turned upside down.
"Fully inform" is that not simply what we in real life call "the small print"?
Taking advantage of people is never ok in my book. If you think you're allowed just because you are a little smarter than us I would question your moral and welcome any basic consumer protection.
> "Fully inform" is that not simply what we in real life call "the small print"?
It depends. We can easily get into the sophistry of "what is understanding", "what's the nature of knowledge" and "how many gains of sand makes it a heap". But usually the most common, though definitely imperfect, test would be whether a random reasonable commoner would be able to understand it. I.e., if somebody is told "we have a contract for 12 months, for X dollars per month, if you want out earlier, you'd have to pay fee of Y dollars" and you say "yes, I agree" - that is voluntary transaction. If you are told "the price is X per month, don't worry about cancelling, it's easy" and then you have to jump through hoops and pay Y dollars because it was printed in unreadable font somewhere in the 2-inch pile of documents you've been given to sign - it's not voluntary, because average reasonable person wouldn't realize it.
> Taking advantage of people is never ok in my book.
Neither it is in mine. There is, however, a wide area of situations where some consider it to be "taking advantage", while others, sometimes including the individuals supposedly being taken advantage of, consider it a free choice. I am against paternalistic approach which says some people can define for other people what's best for them and must protect them from voluntary transactions because it looks to the paternalists like "taking advantage". On the other hand, if it looks for everybody, including the participants, as "taking advantage", and involves hiding substantial information that alters the meaning of the deal, then it's not voluntary. I know it's a more complicated position than fits on a bumper sticker, but life is complicated, so there's no reason not to have complicated positions.
To put it maybe too bluntly: but I do not see the difference between "randomly reasonable commoner" and a "paternalistic approach".
And more importantly I think you put in too much trust in the good will of people. To me it is important to factor in the "human nature" which not always conform to higher ideals. And that does put me firmly in the paternalistic camp.
Not to say I want to remove all liberty. But with the gym examples they clearly show they need to be regulated. They've shown no intent to listen to reasonable random commoners.
I live a place with better consumer protection. I have never in my life had to do a charge back. And have the same bank account. Reasonable consumer protection makes life better - not worse. With the added benefit of making the market more fair for the reasonable players and not cater for the buccaneers.
I'm a libertarian and I don't know what to say. There will be shitty companies as well I guess, but when they lose customers due to such practices, they will learn? If they don't learn they will go out of business.
You're stuck with a bad govt law, no efficient weeding out process exists.
The thing about the invisible hand is that it works really well if you buy a chocolate bar that you don't like. The next day, you won't buy that same chocolate bar. However, when a handsome man in a suit offers my cousin a loan for a house that she can't afford and puts her in severe financial trouble, she might very well not use that bank again the next time she's looking for a loan (in maybe 30 years), but that doesn't help much.
The free market self regulates well in some areas. Others need some assistance.
“If they don’t learn they will go out of business” sounds nice, but in reality, we can all point to hundreds and hundreds of different companies that show that that simply does not happen. Otherwise, the US would have the best and friendliest companies in the world, since that’s where capitalism runs the most rampant, and where you can really see that “the market will sort itself out” philosophy in action.
My credit union has a charge dispute process that is pretty straight forward and has worked well for me over the years. Consider moving your services to another bank/credit union if they don't provide services like that.
The problem was though that if I just stopped paying them without adhering to the contract which stated I must meet with them before cancelling... they would have dinged my credit report for non payment.
> When my turn came... I just said "I'm moving to england and I don't know a single person here who might want to absorb my contract".
I actually came here to say the same thing. I realized “I’m moving” was the best way to get results in these situations when I was actually moving out of the country for a bit. It’s like a magical incantation that immediately gets them to stop trying to upsell or retain you, no questions asked.
I've actually started mastering this technique and using it where it makes sense. When a salesperson tries to get you - always be a buyer but a buyer of something they aren't selling. I think it's like the Benjamin Franklin technique where you build up immediate rapport and control by getting the other person to do something for you. So by asking for something it's like saying "parlay" in Pirates of the Caribbean. It stops them from their normal process.
Example: on the Vegas strip they always have people selling strip clubs and pestering you. I'll say "can't do that tonight but do you have any (insert legit magician) tickets?"
They'll go oh man sorry don't have those tonight. Was going to get some, oh shoot. Have a nice night and take care!!!!
It's like the sale that got away. You're still cool to them so they back off.
I do this with the CD artists - don't have a CD player, you streaming? Nah man.
So always be a buyer of whatever they don't have to sell haha.
Recent renewal contract for LA Fitness has this cover. If you moving away you have to provide some sort of a proof, like new lease contract, job letter etc so that they still will try to find the gym within 15 miles and move you over. I was told in LA Fitness you cannot cancel without any sort of proof if you want to use "moving away" as a reason.
>If you moving away you have to provide some sort of a proof, like new lease contract, job letter etc so that they still will try to find the gym within 15 miles and move you over.
Just tell them you're moving to another continent then... or Antarctica!
Strange you would have to suggest that. To me, it shows how some American people can't even imagine that living in another country (or even lying about it) would be taken seriously.
images.google.com contains zillions of nice form letter rental contracts. Ditto job offer letters.
Please keep in mind the difference between counterfeit vs fraudulent. Making your own currency is inherently illegal; making your own lease contract or job offer is not. Its very easy for the people/orgs named on a contract to sue for fraud if a counterfeit contract is attempted to be used, very difficult for an unrelated 3rd party. If you use google to make sure your counterparty or property do not exist, its very difficult for the contract counterparty to sue you, given they don't exist and there are no financial damages. Note that bank collateral or financial industry KYC verification or accounting revenue / SOX or insurance fraud is obviously not "unrelated". If you own a small company, which is cheap and you probably should, you can easily issue yourself a job offer in any location; wanna winter over in Antarctica?
They almost intentionally are not trying very hard; they could trivially demand state ID card / drivers license from the new address. Obviously they just want a speed bump as a dark pattern of customer retention.
You seem like a patient person. That first visit should have ended with the cancellation or an unambiguous announcement of your intention to issue chargebacks for any future charges by said gym as far as I'm concerned.
There's no way I'd be relying on a manager's schedule to cancel their services.
That first visit ended with my berating the staffer for being useless and working for a shitty company.
I was not proud of that moment, but what I said was not untrue.
They really had me in their grips... if I just stopped paying without formally ending the contract with the agreed upon "cancellation appointment" (that I apparently agreed to in the original contract) then they would have dinged my credit score for not paying my bills on time essentially.
I had the same experience. I was straight up lied to by the salesmen. I talked about it to my bank, they were aware of the problem as it happens to a lot of people. BMO offered to open a new bank account, and move all my funds to it and close my account that goodlife tricked me into using.
I was told that I could cancel any time after a free trial. It turns out I was lied to. I went to see the salesman again as it was on my way. Telling him that I switched my accounts made shut up and look defeated. Felt so good.
>I had the same experience. I was straight up lied to by the salesmen.
My appointment was for 2pm... when the rep showed up at 3pm... his first response was literally "oh hey... you're actually 30 minutes late for our 2:30pm appointment so I'm going to have to cancel.."
I told him I had been waiting there since 2pm (and he had seen me waiting there since 2pm) and then he began to take my fraudulent cancellation data of my moving to another country.
The abuse of politeness appears to be the cornerstone of our society.
My name is MEGACORP. I am a member of the polite society that contains us both. A polite person follows the rules with a smile. The rules say that I get to eat you.
Politeness is not a problem. You can be very polite and still insist on doing what you want. You just need to realize the person who's selling you crap is not your friend and you don't owe them anything, and politely refuse to take it. Saying "no, I do not want this, thank you" is not impolite.
Gyms are a whole other level of insanity for unwanted charges. Planet Fitness's entire business model is essentially counting on people to forget they entered their checking account number, and missing the bill. They wont even allow you to sign up with a credit card.
> They wont even allow you to sign up with a credit card.
This has not been true for years now. I have a Planet Fitness account happily billed to my credit card right now. I actually go 2 times a week, though, and the one time that I did have to cancel it, the process was painless and quick.
Yeah, this is the sleaziest tricks by gyms, especially in Canada/US
No thanks, no bank details. I'll pay by cash, every month. I don't care if I'm paying "double" because that "half price" is accounting for crap like this.
>I don't care if I'm paying "double" because that "half price" is accounting for crap like this.
That's exactly how they got me iirc.
I could have paid a few dollars more per month to be pay as you go... but I was "gonna do this" and I was going to "stick to my gym habits" and keep at this for years so why not sign my life away???
Lesson learned.
I now happily badmouth Goodlife Fitness whenever I get a chance like this.
I'd probably call the police. That's what they would presumably do if a customer was repeatedly trying to sneak in without an account, so it doesn't feel like overkill to me.
I made the mistake of joining a Goodlife gym in Canada many moons ago...
The place was disgusting. Always crowded. Mould growing in the bathrooms. Stunk very badly, etc...
So I stopped going regularly... and one day I was in the area I decided to stop in and cancel my membership.
"Oh sorry, you'll need to make an appointment with management in order to cancel."
"OK, is a manager in right now?"
"Yes, the manager is in but I was told not to disturb her right now."
"OK, well can you tell her a customer is waiting paitiently to cancel his account?"
"No, sorry, I am not allowed to disturb her. You're going to need to make an appointment and come back."
So I did that...
And about 3 weeks later I went in at the agreed upon time to cancel my subscription and I was just sitting... waiting... for over 1 hour...
Right beside a poor old lady that was trying to cancel her subscription as well!!!
She was overly polite and was dealing with this overagressive meathead trying to keep her locked into the service...
"I hate coming here... I never come... I never should have signed up... I just want to cancel..."
"But do you have any friends that might want to take on your subscription? It's at a discounted rate and you might be able to help them out by transferring it over to them."
"No, I do know know anyone who wants to come here."
"Ok, let me go talk to my manager about this."
And he left for like 20 minutes and came back and gave her the gears again.
When my turn came... I just said "I'm moving to england and I don't know a single person here who might want to absorb my contract".
It was a total lie... but it was the only answer that would get me out of there in under 10 minutes.
Companies abusing politeness really are terrible to society.