I call this the painting problem. Painting the walls of a room seems easy to an amateur: You just buy a few gallons at Home Depot and slap it on. But a professional knows that prep, trim, and cleanup are 80% of the job and they take skill. Anybody can slap paint onto the middle of a wall. What's difficult and time-consuming are making the edges sharp and keeping paint off the damn carpet.
It is frightening to see bikeshedding in practice. I used to work for a regional transportation authority that would administer hundreds of millions of dollars in federal/state/local road projects. Local leaders would monthly come in and sit at a huge round table (40-50 cities/counties/regional leaders) and vote on projects. 800 million dollar projects would sail through with almost no questions in the first five minutes, but then the leaders would spend the next two hours of the meeting debating about the $100,000 pilot project to help the homeless.
I once sat in the board of a student organisation management a $3mil investment fund. Which was rapidly declining as funds where being withdrawn to cover budget deficits. At the same meeting where no-one could explain, and no-one seemed to care about a 100,000$ transaction listed as “assorted expenses”, people spend 1,5 hours debating whether the coffee-shop should keep buying newspapers for 200$ a year...
I think it's also kind of an effect that humans don't have an intuitive grasp of big numbers. Add to that the effect that humans think more about what they can imagine. You can kind imagine spending $200 on newspaper in your everyday life. You seldom make $100,000 decisions. Big one-time transactiosn seem intuitively less impactful than many smaller ones.
As Programmers we deal with numbers a lot more often, so this effect is minimized. But still there.
I'm skeptical 800 million dollar projects would pass through local government at that level in 5 minutes, unless everyone who voted in favor had already been canvassed or taken part in intense debates at other meetings or were rubber stamping a special committee decision etc. What regional authority was it where 800 million dollar projects happened so regularly?
This was a transportation authority for a large metro region. CTRMA (Central Texas Regional Mobility Authority) is an example that works with large projects like this all the time, though it wasn’t the one I worked for.
In that case it was a jobs program (to help construct roads) and the rationale against it was that they were extending beyond their purview of what the commission was meant to do.
I think (at least, I hope) what OP was trying to get at was the relative irrationality of something 1/8000th the cost of the very expensive item taking a very long time to debate through (especially when $100,000 is most probably far less than many of those board members earn as a salary every year)
My experience is a careful amateur painter is 1000% better than an average professional. Professionals are certainly a lot faster, but if you look carefully at their work it is in the main very shoddy.
If you want a good result don’t skimp on the tools. Buy good quality brushes, rollers, filler, throws and paint. Also buy an edger to cut in the walls and ceilings. One final tip buy some of the disposable plastic liners for the roller tray so you don’t have to spend time washing out the tray at the end of the day.
Here where I live (Australia) it is near impossible to find good professional tradesmen. While it might be irrational on a financial level to spend my time painting or other trades, I get the quality I want by doing it myself.
Even on the financial level tradesmen here in Australia are so overpaid (compared to everyone else) that it makes sense even for me to do it myself. My house was painted by "professionals" just before we moved in (purple??) and it cost the previous owner $20,000. My wife and I repainted it white (this required 5 coats of paint) and it took us two weeks including the time I had to spend getting the purple paint off the windows and floors and patching all the holes that had been painted over.
Tip. If you are selling your home don't paint it some unusual color. I managed to buy my home $200K under its actual market value and quite a bit of this was due to the crazy way the place has been painted.
I am not sure that description is apt. Underdelivering is only rational for the painter because the client won't be on the market long enough to gather sufficient information. The client is getting cheated, and it creates a lemons market, the fact that it is a Nash equilibrium does not make avoiding the entire thing irrational.
And the entire thing has parallels on software development...
I meant it in a similar sense to that in which some hobbies are often irrational if you consider them only for market value. I probably could have chosen a better term.
An amateur painter will often spend far more time than any reasonable estimation of the market value of that job would justify. Part of this is lack of efficiency and experience, but another part is doing things with sharply diminishing returns. For example, you might apply expensive techniques to inexpensive materials, in a way that would not make for a viable business.
Put it another way - amateurs can easily arrive at a finished job (of painting, in this case) that they would never be able to convince themselves to pay market rate for. This is irrational in certain restricted senses.
For what it's worth I don't believe that "lemons market" is accurate for painters in general, but I'm guessing there is a segment of it that meets your description.
> amateurs can easily arrive at a finished job (of painting, in this case) that they would never be able to convince themselves to pay market rate for.
If you're looking at it from a economic standpoint, to be considered irrational, the tradeoff between the value of time vs the cost of hiring a professional would have to assume that the value of the time is greater than the value of the professional.
I always hear this compared to "what is your hourly rate in your job" or "my time is worth more than that", but I think for most people this just isn't a fair comparison. Just because I can spend 10 hours painting my room and I make $x/hour and it would cost <$x to pay a professional, does not mean I would be able to actually generate an _incremental_ $x per hour by not painting and hiring the professional.
For most people on a salary (where your pay is fixed no matter how much time you put in), their time outside of the job is, in a very real sense from an economic standpoint, valueless, and it would be perfectly rational to spend that time yourself, no matter how cheaply a professional could do it.
If you're looking at it from a economic standpoint, to be considered irrational, the tradeoff between the value of time vs the cost of hiring a professional would have to assume that the value of the time is greater than the value of the professional.
That’s an oversimplification, and not the argument I was attempting.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think we are really disagreeing much.
Not at all, merely pointing out an aspect of this trade-off that I often hear described as irrational based on the exact oversimplification that you pointed out. Consider my comment an addendum to yours. :-)
Not sure where you're from but in Germany there are industry standards professionals have to adhere to. Sure, there are sloppy professionals like in any other job too but if they adhere to the industry standards, the result will be pretty much what you expect and they're not allowed to take shortcuts that result in lower quality work.
On the other hand, coming from a country that takes its trades extremely serious, I was shocked about what I observed every time I visited the UK. It seems the expectations vary drastically between different countries (though I'm sure there are quality professionals in the UK too).
It doesn't make too much sense to do quality work in the UK, on the whole.
House price / rent value is basically dependent on location. Money spent on fitting is generally wasted.
There are a lot of great craftsmen in the UK, but they tend to work on a subset of jobs - restoration, passion projects, really high-end stuff.
PS: This is also a direct result of ever-rising house prices. If land/house prices are consistently rising, it often makes more sense to let lots stay empty, rather than building (which is always a massive risk). It also makes sense to do any repair or upkeep work as cheaply as possible - since in a rising market, the only way you can lose money is by expensive development costs.
Yes I agree especially the cleaning part. The kitchen and the rooms close to the kitchen it is critical to clean and clean and clean. The prep should take longer than the painting.
On the sand paper front make sure to spend money there. Cheap sandpaper last 2 nanoseconds and does a terrible job.
That may be a bad analogy, considering painting your own apartment is something a great deal of people do, and often with good success.
My parents (not in any way experts on that field) painted their entire house themselves, except for two rooms that were painted by a professional painter, and the professional painter left much worse corners than my parents. This was the paid-for result (ignore the dark corner at the bottom, that’s caused by the flash): https://i.imgur.com/s1VHV2W.jpg
Aside from the "sample size of one"-issue: how much time did your parents take, and how much effort and preparation time, and how did that compare to the time and effort the professional needed? It could be a trade-off issue there.
Also, note that this thread started with a comment about how many developers don't appreciate what the actual hard problems in their own line of work are, and how that produces poor results because of that. I expect that to be true of any profession that doesn't have some kind of rigorously enforced standard.
My family painted about half our house ourselves when I was about a pre-teen. My mom just hired a painter to paint her new house. The painter didn't take an appreciably shorter time period than a couple pre-teens did. IIRC, it took us about a week for about 800 square feet worth, and it took the professional 3 weeks for 2400 square feet. And yeah, we did the whole masking-tape, dropcloth, and primer routine as well, and our corners were just as good. (I was gonna say we probably took more cajoling, but given the number of times my mom had to call the painter to make sure he showed up and would have it all done by move-in, I'm not sure that's true.)
Painting isn't a profession with a particularly high return on experience. You hire a painter for comparative-advantage reasons. It may take him just as long as it takes you, and several thousand dollars more, but chances are you can make more than several thousand dollars in the time you would've spent painting your house. (If you can't, you may want to re-think hiring a professional, and instead go into business as a painter yourself...)
When you weigh hiring a professional versus DIY, you have to consider the impact of income taxes, not just what you earn/hr versus pay/hr. You have to pay the pro with post-taxed earnings, and then the pro has to pay tax on what you pay them before they can do anything with it. Whereas, if you DIY, you aren't taxed for it. (Also, many people can't just 'work ore hours' to get paid more).
I'm a die-hard DIYer. I hire out drywall and blueboard/skimcoat work. Two guys who do that work everyday can do in a 6-hour day and ~$800 what it would take me two weeks and $300 in materials and their job looks 4x better than mine.
For us non-english speakers - "sheetrock" == drywall.
I find I can do most such works better than (average) professionals, but it takes a lot of time to learn, prepare, execute (+ sometimes re-execute) and clean. It all depends on when you are satisfied with the result.
I have also heard it as "gypsum wallboard", which is certainly most descriptive.
I'm not certain whether the water-resistant, mold-resistant variety typically hung behind tiles in bathrooms is ever referred to as "wetwall" or if they still call it "drywall".
Nor am I aware of whether anyone calls the foil-backed, glass-reinforced, fire-resistant variety "firewall" instead of "drywall".
I wouldn't be surprised if obsolete and inapplicable names still attach to items with the same function. If we ever move to polyethylene film panels sandwiched with phase-change material for our walls, it might still be called "plasterboard" somewhere.
it is called dry wall because it is installed while already dry. Unlike the old technique of lath and plaster where you build up the wall with multiple layers of wet plaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath_and_plaster
I used to work for a home theater company. We were regularly working on newer mansion in the suburbs. If you ever want to see some dudes that work faster than fast, go hang out with a drywall crew.
I remember showing up on a site, and the drywall guys had just started carting in a ton of drywall. By the time we left in the afternoon, they had cut, hung, taped and mudded over 3,000 sq feet of home, it was insane.
The hardest part is knowing when it is a better use of your time to hire someone else to do it for you.
You can just follow all the same steps as you usually do:
1. Define the problem.
2. Determine the desired outcome.
3. Measure the existing state.
4. Note the foreseeable failure modes.
5. Plot the path from existing state to desired outcome as a series of reasonable steps, avoiding the failure modes.
6. Recursively analyze the steps, breaking them down into smaller steps if necessary.
7. Rework your plan as additional failure modes become evident.
In my experience, yes, you can do anything, as long as you ignore costs. You can't, for instance, justify buying a specialized tool to finish just one job. The hardest part is really step 2.
