This is the most backward and regressive country in the world.
The fact that Europe, US, western media and other busy bodies can sanctimoniously preach human rights and execute wars and destroy entire countries for decades non stop while supporting a regime like SA is a true reflection of how global news and propaganda works. And exposes the silliness of a 'value' based world that exists simply to provide cover for geo-political objectives to cause devastation and death on the ground. These are crimes against humanity.
And mindbogglingly this support has continued even while the Saudis finance the spread of a hateful wahhabist ideology and we spend billions to build surveillance states at home to protect against it.
Yet it is Libya, Iraq and now Syria and Iran - all generations ahead on human rights compared to the Saudis - that are targeted while the Saudi's continue uninterrupted with western support. This 'purge' is happening with US and european support so you don't see the usual hysteria about 'rule of law' and 'human rights'. This is a truly messed up world.
Well said! We (those in the US) should really think about who we are, as I think it's harder to be self reflective about our own doings, but we can see how bad Saudi Arabia is. Saudi Arabia is considered an ally. Saudi Arabia is a leading state sponsor of terrorism and has been exporting an extreme ideology which is the terrorism that is wreaking havoc. How can we consider ourselves the "good guys", if Saudi Arabia (a country that is so obviously doing horrible things) is considered an ally and a country which we (the US) have been arming them with weapons?
> The purge began overnight Saturday, initially catching 11 princes and 38 officials, military officers and business leaders. They are being held at five-star hotels, including the Ritz-Carlton in Riyadh.
Really getting the royal treatment even during probe. Btw, is this in any way related to the pending Aramco IPO?
Detained in a 5* hotel probably feels like prison would be for most of us. In the end, prison is about not having any freedom and that will be the case for them as well. A nice bed doesn't help much if you have no say about your life.
> Btw, is this in any way related to the pending Aramco IPO?
More likely the handover to the new crown prince (MBS). The IPO could be cancelled anyway but both are driven by MBS to modernise Saudi Arabia and make it ready for a future without oil.
This is an aspect of the proposed narrative I don't understand.
How on Earth is turning the country into an absolute dictatorship, with the rule of law utterly disregarded, supposed to help Saudi Arabia move forward? The last things I would want to do financially would be to put money into a state where the local dictator has a proven willingness to seize assets on a whim.
In theory it would be that they believe they can kill two birds with one stone.
1) Take out competing power lines in the family. As a kicker they get to seize upwards of $300 billion that can go into the remake-Saudi-Arabia-fund for Mohammad Bin Salman (likely several times what they'd get initially from the Aramco IPO).
2) Neutralize concerns over that by covering it in a guise of cleaning up the kingdom. Most likely the kingdom has always operated by these means and they're simply throwing a switch and choosing to selectively prosecute.
Their plan bets on the second part being an acceptable cover story. They're betting some percentage of people will buy the premise outright. They're betting some percentage of people will find the cover story good enough to provide their own personal cover to continue working with the Saudis ('just give me some kind of rationale I can take to my people'). It would all rest on the notion that given enough time and stability afterward, that the vast majority of people that do business with Saudi Arabia now, will let this slide.
Dictatorships can be extremely good or extremely bad. Anti corruption moves, if true, are much easier to pull off with bureaucracy (and laws) out of the way. I'm hoping it will go back to the days of the French or Ottoman empires.
Suspect that treating royalty like common prisoners would be viewed as "cruel and unusual punishment" by segments of Saudi Arabian society which have relatively little issue with the principle of mass arrests of political rivals (or indeed the cruel and unusual punishments the kingdom does carry out)
There's a very serious risk that some or all of these princes are going to get executed. That's how Saudi Arabia does things. It's unlikely they will all be set free to go back to their old lives, it would pose too great of a risk to the new power structure MbS and the king are trying to put into place. For example it appears they're going to confiscate Al-Waleed bin Talal's assets. There's no chance he's going to be set free after this, to then go overseas and cause havoc for the regime.
Perhaps a 5* for them is equivalent to a 6x8 jail cell for us. I would imagine they usually get the best service on the planet, not the best service available for average people.
That's exactly what I wanted to say. For us, living in flats or houses and owning up to two cars (and no jets), a cell is probably as much of a restriction on our comfort as a luxury hotel room is for a Saudi prince.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't go to a proper jail if convicted but I'm sure they already feel punished.
From pictures I've seen in online media [1], it seems they're sleeping on the floor in the foyer, not in suites. Probably works better for surveillance purposes to have them all in one place.
TBH looks fishy to me. Article claims there's 10 princes and 38 officials. But there's hardly 5 beds on that video, which could just as easily be stuffed with cushions. And why are there guns lying on the corner with the guard being on the other side?
Looks like PR work while they stay in their nice rooms.
These guys are extremely powerful people. Even under house arrest, MBS risks assassination and worse for such a bold move. The least they could do is keep them detained comfortably.
When it is all said and done the Saudi Crown is going to have significant stakes in many critical American and Western companies including huge media companies.
Like I commented elsewhere in this post, if anything remotely close to this was happening in any of "official" adversaries like Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, etc., media would be calling for US troops on the ground. It this was in Russia or China, there would be multiple levels of sanctions imposed as we speak.
Yeah, exactly. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst offenders on human rights [1] and a leading state sponsor of terrorism [2]. Yet, somehow this ploy for the prince to assert power and attack his enemies is not questioned, and the propaganda that is given is taken at face value. This is outrageous that they are considered an ally. We must really question ourselves, if they are an ally. Here's an interesting article regarding Saudi Arabia trying to destabilize Lebanon with the forced resignation of Hariri [3].
Well, their views on gender equality and religious freedom on average tend to be very different from the vast majority of those in the West. So yes, they might well be worse.
The policy on gender and religious freedom is only the tip of the iceberg.
Freedom as a concept seems to be under direct attack in their Kingdom considering the Crown Prince is rounding up political enemies en masse with complete impunity.
Maybe on certain domestic policies (though I think it's a stretch), but Saudi Arabia is in the dark ages, so it's not hard to be considered moderate there. He has been consolidating power with these "corruption" arrests. He is also destabilizing the region into chaos with an aggressive war against Yemen, a blockade of Qatar [1], and the forced resignation of Hariri [2].
I do not think it’s accurate to call this a “corruption probe.” Surely that’s how Saudi Arabia’s leaders and their allies would like it described. To me, it’s a biased headline.
Keep in mind that the opposing side is being murdered, or detained, without due process.
The KSA is an absolute monarchy that beheads people and severs limbs for thievery. Murdering or detaining the other side without due process is how these states work, it's how you consolidate power when there are hundreds of pretenders to the throne.
Sure, but where is the outcry from Western media and round the clock coverage of this outrage? If anything remotely close to this was happening in any of "official" adversaries like Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, etc., media would be calling for US troops on the ground. It this was in Russia or China, there would be multiple levels of sanctions imposed as we speak.
But, hey, this is Saudi Arabia, so let's just treat it with bemused detachment like an extended Game of Thrones season.
Kind of hard to get outraged about. These people _are_ corrupt. So is the crown prince. The Game of Thrones reference is apt, none of these people are morally superior to the others.
On the list of Saudi outrages, this ranks pretty far down the list.
Yeah, sure, compared to routinely beheading people for witchcraft, this might even seem civilized.
My point was that when it's murderous tyrannical allies like Saudis, the mainstream response is just like yours, "eh, what am I supposed to do about it, that's how it goes".
When it's adversaries like Saddam Hussein, it's "wtf, let's bomb the shit out of them".
> It's an absolute monarchy, it's not supposed to be fair.
"It's a dictatorship, it's not supposed to be fair". Or I guess all Saddam or Gaddafi had to do was to rebrand as monarchs and US would have completely backed off.
The Prime Minister of Lebanon also turned up in Riyadh and resigned via television on the same day in unclear circumstances (conflicting reports whether he is free to leave or not), which is a particularly weird tie-in: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/10/middleeast/lebanon-hariri-...
Let's put it into perspective. Paul Allen is holding $9.5 billion in Microsoft. Paul is worth around $6 billion more than Alwaleed.
That position couldn't shake Microsoft very much at all, much less the wider tech world. Alwaleed's position in Apple and Twitter are, basically, meaningless to affecting tech stocks. Apple is a $900 billion company, nearing the worth of Aramco at this point. Alwaleed's entire worth is $17 billion, barely a drop in the ocean versus tech stocks. Not to mention nobody seriously believes those positions are going to be haphazardly liquidated. If Saudi Arabia manages to seize Kingdom Holdings, they'll most likely make gradual maneuvers.
Some of my conspiracy forums are saying supposedly this is part of a corruption sweep agreement that will include America (rumors of sealed indictments), designed to get "deep state" people to start singing.
Not saying its true, but just thought it might add context.
Never forget who created the house of saud in the first place.
I'm seeing the same thing, in relatively mainstream conservative fora.
The most convincing part of this seems to be that Alwaleed bin Talil has longstanding ties with the US political system, particularly on the left. His past work with the Podestas has many eyebrows raised.
There are also dozens of sealed federal indictments pending, which I'm told is quite unusual. The assumption seems to be that they are related to Mueller's investigation although I've seen no compelling evidence that this is the case, aside from timing and wishful thinking.
> There are also dozens of sealed federal indictments pending, which I'm told is quite unusual. The assumption seems to be that they are related to Mueller's investigation although I've seen no compelling evidence that this is the case, aside from timing and wishful thinking.
Neither the total number, nor timing, is particularly unusual; then speculation about Mueller is mostly based on the number in D.C. between the Manafort and Papadopoulos indictments being somewhat higher than would be expected by random chance, but even that is fairly weak. There is basically zero evidence of anything unusual with sealed indictments.
Is this good news? By all accounts this seems to as much a purging of political enemies by the new leaders and them cementing their grip on power as anything to do with corruption.
True, but what is the lesson people are taking away? Is it "I better stop being corrupt" or is it "if I want to keep being corrupt I better swear loyalty to MBS and make sure he gets his cut". If it's purely the latter, has anything really been won?
Fair enough. I think it is too early to say what the outcome is going to be.
I'm also fairly amused at some comments here being critical of the manner in which the changes are happening. An autocratic monarchy is not going to change via committee meetings, legislative votes, or reasoned judicial orders -- not significantly at least.
Moving toward more moderate policies or even further to a constitutional monarchy is going to come from the use of brute force.
I think we can all agree that this is a move towards something new and big. The significant questions are will it work, and is that something a 'good' something.
Yes, they are getting ready for a life after oil. They'll still have large inflows for another 1-2 decades so if they start now, they can be a highly developed economy with sizeable tourism, education sector and tech once oil dries up (or becomes less profitable). They recently announced to build a city solely focused around renewables and self driving technology, a future version of Dubai basically.
Whether this is a good move remains to be seen. As was said in another comment, this seems more about cementing power than anything else.
A corrupt regime is bad, but sometimes the alternatives are worse. Just look at some of the Arab countries that were once relatively stable yet now are (still) in turmoil after the Arab spring.
Saudi Arabia is changing, full stop. Mohammad bin Salman is pushing through a sweeping reform agenda, with the explicitly stated aim of returning Saudi Arabia to a moderate Islamic state. We've already seen substantial change. The powers of the religious police have been greatly curtailed, women are allowed to drive, the state-owned petroleum company is being partly privatised and there are major plans for economic modernisation.
Whether this reform agenda actually comes to pass is yet to be seen, but I think we should applaud both the rhetoric and the efforts made so far.
Saudi Arabia is bombing and starving Yemenis as we speak. It has been destabilizing Syria by funding jihadis. It is still publicly beheading people for sorcery, witchcraft, apostasy, and sex outside marriage.
Women are NOT allowed to drive until at least a year from now, for "reasons". This was just a PR bone thrown to the West before starting the war on Lebanon.
Technically they've said that women will be allowed to drive at some time in future, possibly June 2018. As of today women are still not allowed to drive.
The reform agenda only reaches as far as the door to the throne room. Assuming perfect execution of western reforms we'll still be left with an enormously wealthy, powerful, and ruthless autocratic regime actively trying to spread their power far beyond their borders.
Unless they become a constitutional monarchy with severely limited powers I am going to hold my applause.
For a country like Saudi, if you want to make a large scale sudden changes which turns everything upside-down (even if those were good intentions), you will end up with something like Afganistan or Iraq.
The pace of change (however slow for our standard), is quite unthinkable for the locals. I think it will take a couple of decades, at least, to see if anything good came out of this.
A cosolidation of autocratic power domestically combined with escalating it's apparent effort to initiate a larger regional war than it already has are not what I'd call unqualified “good news”.
As another comment pointed out, it is quite naive to consider "corruption purges" in countries like Russia, China or Saudi Arabia to be actually concerned with corruption.
But yes absolutely, this is a PR strategy change, but it is primarily concerned with the public image of the crown prince not of the KSA itself.
Well, it's debatable if the improvements in women's rights and the corruption-related investigations are reflective of core changes to the society or if they are superficial changes in the first case, and moves to consolidate power in the second case.
The fact that Europe, US, western media and other busy bodies can sanctimoniously preach human rights and execute wars and destroy entire countries for decades non stop while supporting a regime like SA is a true reflection of how global news and propaganda works. And exposes the silliness of a 'value' based world that exists simply to provide cover for geo-political objectives to cause devastation and death on the ground. These are crimes against humanity.
And mindbogglingly this support has continued even while the Saudis finance the spread of a hateful wahhabist ideology and we spend billions to build surveillance states at home to protect against it.
Yet it is Libya, Iraq and now Syria and Iran - all generations ahead on human rights compared to the Saudis - that are targeted while the Saudi's continue uninterrupted with western support. This 'purge' is happening with US and european support so you don't see the usual hysteria about 'rule of law' and 'human rights'. This is a truly messed up world.