[Most] credit card bloggers like The Points Guy are shills, don't listen to them. They make their money from affiliate marketing so they'll pimp the cards that make them the most (like Chase cards) and ignore deals that are good for you but bad for them. The Points Guy's website is owned by Bankrate.
The Points Guy and other credit card bloggers are like the people who hold "I Will Teach You To Get Rich" seminars at the Holiday Inn. He never answered when asked how much his salary he makes from his blog is but it's reported to be 7 figures.
This is not the golden age, it's pretty mainstream. Card issues are cracking down on gamers. AMEX just started putting terms about gaming in their application. Citi merged limits on sign up bonuses across their cards. Chase doesn't even approve you if you've opened too many credit cards in the last 24 months (5) and has long called out gaming as against their T&C.
Even if you get a million miles it's a chore to redeem them for something worthwhile. You also have to worry about keeping them from expiring.
I still collect points and miles but don't kid yourself that it's not a commitment. Most people who are serious in the miles/points game go out buying gift cards and then using ever closing loopholes to liquidate the gift cards. It's just crazy some of the time, money, and effort people put into it. Might as well get a part time job at that point.
Personally, in two years, between credit cards and bank accounts I've gotten $6,000 in realized worth (that is redeemed) and at least as much in unrealized worth. I've got my first rejection a few weeks ago.
I don't know if your assessment of that is accurate. I opened 2 cards last year, the AMEX Platinum and Chase Sapphire Reserve deal. I got 100k points for each card. I had some existing points and then some extra spending and I was able to get 2 business class tickets to Japan ($18k value) and 15 nights in 5 and 6 star Hyatt hotels. That was probably another $8k in value. I spent 170k AMEX points on the flights and 155k Chase points on the hotels. That trip was amazing and it was only possible because of the points.
Was it a lot of work? Not really. I just put all my spending on my AMEX for a few months. Then I switched to the Chase Sapphire for a months. Once I got all the points I needed, I just transferred the the Amex points to ANA and the Chase points to Hyatt. I then booked my flights and hotels. Booking flights was slightly harder as my fiance and I weren't married so we had to transfer points to separate accounts, but it definitely wasn't a chore at all. A simple phone call to AMEX took care of that. Booking rooms with Hyatt and using points was a breeze.
There are other benefits of having high end cards too. I got Global Entry for my fiance and I ($200 value). We didn't have to go through customs on the way back to USA. I got $300 travel credit from CSR card per year. $200 airline credit from AMEX Plat. I was able to get orchestra tickets to Hamilton in NYC for $399 through AMEX plat.
If I had a million points, I could book 3-4 dream vacations. Not sure what went wrong with your redemptions.
Would you have paid $18K to fly to Japan though? The "cents per mile" is high but it's better to measure your WTP (willingness to pay).
BTW, you can regularly get west coast to Japan in business class for ~$3-4k/pp. ex. https://goo.gl/flights/BDTu. If you wait for deals, there was Vancouver - Japan/Hong Kong/SE Asia for ~$2k in business class for a while. Business class prices have been consistently dropping transatlantic (TATL) and we're seeing that transpacific (TPAC) too, albeit more slowly.
I think what you did was smart, but there's really no way to continue to get that kind of value from your miles. You could get the other Amex cards (~150k MR?), and other Chase cards (~150k UR?), but hard to repeatedly get big bonuses like that :P
Totally agree though that keeping one or both of those cards is great for the right kind of spend. It's just not like a free trip to Europe every quarter like it used to be.
Not sure how much "willingness to pay" makes sense. This is more about taking advantage of money which would otherwise be left on the table. If you aren't going out of your way to spend on cards, and all you need to do is shift spending onto certain cards for certain purchases during the first X months in order to get a nice point bonus, seems like a nice way to get a free vacation.
Yes thats true, I conceded that point in another reply to Sleeep. I did look up tickets just now and they are about $6500/person on ANA. I specifically looked up ANA because I wanted to fly on one of the better airlines. The service I got was absolutely fantastic.
2 business class tickets is definitely not $18k in value. There are regularly sales with various airlines when you can get a business class to Japan for around $2k per ticket. And since availabilities for rewards vary and are sometimes hard to come buy, you cannot compare them to the price of a fully flexible airline ticket.
But that said, you can get good value from using miles.
I know they aren't normally that much, but at the time they were like 8800 per person. I had a specific airline in mind when I flew because I wanted the full experience. ANA currently is like $6500/person for business but I felt it was well worth the cost. I know you can get cheaper tickets.
Out of curiosity, how much do you have to spend to get those bonus miles? Right now Chase Sapphire Reserve will give you 50k miles for $4k in spending within 3 months (in addition to the $450 annual fee).
It just seems like a lot of these credit card based mileage schemes are really limited to people who can naturally spend tens of thousands a year on credit cards and can additionally afford the potentially thousands more in annual fees (if you have multiple cards). For those who aren't in the top 20th percentile of income, or who just prefer a frugal lifestyle, I don't see how its viable.
Or are there tricks to manufacture spending and recoup your costs?
When I signed up to those two cards, it was $3k spend in 3 months for each card. I also signed up at different times. For my Amex platinum I actually put my security deposit on it for 2k and 2k down on a car haha.
You can manufacture spending and spend something like $10,000 a month on gift cards, then turn that back into cash to pay your credit card bill. Not sure how to do it and its also risky. AMEX/Chase have been closing accounts for it and one guy was doing it with Money Orders and the US Postal Service went after him for money laundering.
As for me I have a natural spend of about 5500 a month for all expenses and rent. I paid rent using Plastiq (2.5% fee) for a while and got triple points before Chase cut off the triple points offer on Plastiq's services. They re-categorized it as a business service instead of travel.
It definitely favors higher incomes for sure.
I can put 4-5000 a month on a card and with point bonuses, earn something like 6-8000 points per month. So in 2 years we'll have enough to go on another dream vacation (Probably Japan again cause it was amazing!).
EDIT: You can down grade your card to a no fee card after you've gotten your bonuses. Then later re apply. AMEX has language in their Terms that limits you to 1 bonus per card per lifetime, but recently some of their cards do not have that language. Chase limits you to 5 cards opened in a 24 month period, regardless of the credit card servicer. Citi also has some form of restriction. This all recently started in the last year or 2.
AMEX is calling out downgrading after 12 months as a way to lose your sign up bonus as of a few weeks ago. They are cracking down on people who don't have a serious interest in keeping the card. This is one of the reasons why I said the golden age is well over - https://www.doctorofcredit.com/amex-updates-terms-penalize-g...
When I got it was $450, they recently raised the prices. Even if you run the calculations, its still worth it.
$550 a year fee
$200 airline credit
$200 Uber credit
$20 Global Entry credit per year (Prorated. Global entry costs $100 per 5 years and AMEX will cover the cost).
Gold status with SPG and Hilton
Lounge access at many airports
Free subscription to GoGo for in flight internet (domestic)
And lastly, AMEX Platinum Concierge is still the best service for any card.
5x points on airline purchases.
Chase Sapphire has even better value.
$450 fee
$300 credit per year (When I got this card, I was able to redeem the credit twice due to the timing and how Chase calculates the year.) ALso Chase's credit is far more useful since "travel" is loosely defined for them.
Lounge access
$20 Global Entry Credit per year (used this one for fiance)
The AMEX redemptions are some of the worst, and they are losing partners. They also didn't auto-reimburse me for the airline credit when I followed all their instructions. They also didn't reimburse me for Uber credit -- apparently it doesn't work when the trips are in other countries (only the US), which is a really lame for a "travel" card.
For ANA its pretty sweet. 85k round trip on business to Asia. But, in general I agree I think they are on the down fall and they need to come up with some new things to remain competitive. The hotel status are the only reason I have them because I have been traveling a lot lately and its worth it. I may end up cancelling it in the future.
You can't call your airlines tickets $18k in value because you wouldn't have spent $18k on two airline tickets. My value is the max I'm willing to pay for a ticket, not the price the airline says the ticket I redeemed for is worth. Bloggers say this too and it's disingenuous. For me those tickets would be $5k because that's the most I'm willing to pay for two tickets to Japan.
It's a pain to figure out the best way to get from point A to point B using points. You have to figure out which points to collect,then you have to collect enough of them, then figure out which time of the year to go where the redemptions you can afford are. Then you have to transfer and book on partner airlines. It certainly isn't straightforward.
Yeah, sure, you can do a big trip with two HUGE sign up bonuses of flexible points very easily. Being able to get one high quality trip isn't the same as being able to get many high quality trips, you aren't going to be able to do that a couple times a year (which is what bloggers make it seem like). Travel bloggers promote churning through cards to keep generating more points. You can't just churn through Platinum and CSR applications over and over again. (Platinum is churable to an extent but that's another topic and AMEX is cracking down on that)
Those two sign up bonuses you got are not common and the CSR one won't come back ever again (Chase is losing money on the CSR, look for a devaluation in the future).
Also your points have to be spread out among 5+ different loyalty programs if you want to continue churning credit cards/points/bonuses.
My redemptions are fine, they fit my needs. I have not redeemed a lot yet. I haven't planned a big trip yet. So far all my redemptions have been for a couple nights at a time. You aren't going to get as much value if you simply fly domestic. Flying to Japan may get you the most value but it's worthless if you don't want to fly to Japan.
Anyways, my point of the GP was:
-TPG and most travel blogs are a business that are making money off you.
-Points aren't as simple as "sign up for credit card, fly to Japan," you have to be flexible and usually to get a good redemption you'll have to transfer and book off peak. Availably is limited.
-To get more than 1-2 trips you're going to have to game the system. Sign up, collect bonuses, close card, repeat. You hit a wall with this after a while.
-Credit card companies are cracking down on gamers.
-Some people are better off getting part time job with how much effort they put into gaming the system.
I do not believe its disingenuous to say that they are $18k in value. That's how much the tickets cost at the time. Could I afford the tickets if I paid cash? No, but isn't that the whole point of churning?
I looked up the cheapest flights on ANA business class in September 2017 and they look to be around $6500 per person. That is still quite a bit of money saved. I potentially could afford that if I was extra frugal for a few years. It also means you can use the money for other things, which we did in the form hot springs ryokan, more gifts and souvenirs.
Figuring out which points to collect really wasn't that hard, it takes 10 minutes to look up that information. There are plenty of sites that catalog that information like reddit.com/r/awardtravel, www.awardace.com, www.awardhacker.com
Figuring out which time of the year to go may change the amount of points you need, that I agree can be annoying.
I will concede that its not a straight forward process, but its also something you can look up and research in a day.
As for the huge sign up bonuses, yes they probably won't come around again for a long time, but you can still get the amount of points needed pretty quick. Since I booked our trips in 2016 (2017 was the vacation), I have accumulated 50k Amex points and 40k Chase points. Amex has quite a few offers that double, triple, or even 10x the normal amount of points received. I bought a TV from Best Buy and got 3000 points. I signed up for "Pay over time" and got 10,000 points. I had to ship a few packages (ebay stuff) on Fedex and got 10x points for 2k points.
With Chase I put all my grocery/dining/travel expenses on it. I get 3x for that.
At the end of the day, I guess it depends on how much you want out of it. I do not do manufactured spending and buy gift cards, but I do look at deals and offers and try to maximize my point earnings. Whether you believe that's a chore and is worth it or not is up to you.
You can get a $500 hotel on points. You don't say "well, I live for free at home, so technically this night is worth nothing."
Just because you can "buy" something with a different currency that might make more sense, doesn't make it cost less in USD if you were to purchase it outright.
He's talking about willingness to pay (WTP), which is the right way to value travel imo. A biz flight might be $4k, but the economy option might be $800. If I buy economy but would pay ~$1500 for business, but no more, then the miles are effectively worth that to you. If an airline was selling fares at $1500 you'd buy them, but since they're not, you won't be buying at $4k.
In your hotel example, you should look at the WTP for a room. I might pay $150 for a room, and up to $250 for the high end room. So even if the sticker price is $500, it's value to me is closer to $250, so I'll calculate my CPM that way.
If I was given a $500 hotel voucher (that was non-transferable and expires) and I had absolutely no use for a hotel room I would value that voucher at $0, yes.
Just like if Amazon offered me a year of prime membership for $10 I'd say "no thank you" because I value prime membership at $0. (Don't shop at Amazon much, don't mind waiting for shipping, have all the streaming I need)
Its pretty easy to use points to book rooms for other people, I was able to gift 4 reservations a few weeks back for an event. All I had to do was write "Gift Reservation for xyz person" in the Request option.
Right, but that's why I said "voucher," not "points." Incidentally, that is why United got such a bad rap for giving out vouchers rather than cash for bumping passengers. Because everyone knows vouchers are more than likely never going to be used before they expire.
Even considering you can book rooms for others, there's still a huge segment of the population (50%?) where hotel points are still completely useless. There's a time in my life hotel points would be completely useless to me too. Many people don't travel and don't have friends/family who travel either, it's as simple as that. The HN crowd seems to believe that everyone is taking a few vacations to far away places a year but that's simply not the case, most people I know do not travel at all and do not want to either.
Plus, even you wanted to use them they would have to have a hotel at the destination where you also wanted to travel to.
The Points Guy is fine in that it'll teach most people the basics. It's not perfect advice, and they (Kelly, and Bankrate) make a killing on it… but it's good enough. For most people, the alternative is using a debit card or redeeming their miles for a new toaster. Following TPG's advice is already a massive improvement.
In the past year, I've flown >100 times, 200k "butt-in-seat" miles, all long-haul in first or business class, spent 150+ nights in luxury hotels. I've flown around the US in private jets. I have millions of points and miles. I don't dare imagine what the retail cost would've been—but I pay a tiny tiny fraction of the price. Travel in that style is a hobby and I go out of my way to fly new airlines (I've tried long-haul first class on almost every reputable airline) and visit new places (40 countries and counting).
Getting really good at this, however, is a ton of work. It's a time-consuming hobby. I have spreadsheets, scripts, crawlers, and private groups to trade info, miles, and favors. I'm constantly on the lookout for new deals and loopholes; and I know the ins-and-outs of airlines' and hotels' policies. I've put in my 10,000h.
The point is that sure; for me, TPG seems like child's play. A lot of the information is a bit inaccurate, and they're not entirely unbiased. But most people don't have the willingness or interest to put in the work required to be really successful at this hobby. For that majority of people, following TPG's advice will let them experience a taste of this lifestyle. It might be enough to take their fiancé on a first class luxury honeymoon to Japan. In my opinion, that's pretty cool…
Have you considered monetizing your knowledge? I would pay maybe $100/hour for some advice on how to adapt my current lifestyle and credit card usage to gain more miles/benefits.
I help my friends a lot and I'm always happy to chat it through with anyone. That said, no, I haven't looked into turning this into something more, for two reasons:
1) The nature of the game is that the more people play it, the less value it provides. A lot of my success in this is due to obscure opportunities that die as soon as they get too publicized.
2) Turning this from a hobby to a job would take the fun out of it.
I tried to monetize my knowledge of credit card awards. The problem I ran into is that in order to find awards for customers of the same quality that I do for myself, I'd need to charge >$1000 per passenger to make it worth my time.
If finding the awards for two people to do a somewhat-complicated trip takes me 10 hours, charging $100 a pop just doesn't make sense.
This. I recently redeemed a great trip with a round the world award on cathay pacific (a oneworld multipartner award). It's a really great value and it does save me a lot of money (compared to what I would have been willing to pay for an equivalent trip) but it takes time.
- finding the available seats
- calling and getting it done on the phone (and finding that Asiamiles can't find the award you thought was available)
- making sure you follow the rules so that that specific award works (I needed to book 3 different airlines which became difficult when suddenly one of the airlines I was planning to use didn't have any awards at all anymore)
It's fun doing for myself and if I do it for myself, I can quickly evaluate alternatives but I can't imagine doing it for someone else.
There are a few services who do book awards for around $250 but a lot of them don't really want to do overly complex bookings.
TPG exists to make TPG money not to lead you to the right cards for your needs. If you want to learn you should learn from a resource that doesn't contain referral links.
TFA is nothing but a marketing piece. The travel blog market is saturated.
The article acknowledges both the affiliate marketing and bankrate ownership. Do you have evidence that his reporting is influenced 8n a way that serves him but not his readers? Not really fair to call him a shill otherwise.
As for your assessment of the utility of collecting points, I agree. I have ADHD. I will miss a payment or something that will blow the whole mess apart. Not worth it to me, but good for those who can make it work.
Here's him getting called out on Reddit for some practices: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/471yey/im_the_points_...
The Points Guy and other credit card bloggers are like the people who hold "I Will Teach You To Get Rich" seminars at the Holiday Inn. He never answered when asked how much his salary he makes from his blog is but it's reported to be 7 figures.
This is not the golden age, it's pretty mainstream. Card issues are cracking down on gamers. AMEX just started putting terms about gaming in their application. Citi merged limits on sign up bonuses across their cards. Chase doesn't even approve you if you've opened too many credit cards in the last 24 months (5) and has long called out gaming as against their T&C.
Even if you get a million miles it's a chore to redeem them for something worthwhile. You also have to worry about keeping them from expiring.
I still collect points and miles but don't kid yourself that it's not a commitment. Most people who are serious in the miles/points game go out buying gift cards and then using ever closing loopholes to liquidate the gift cards. It's just crazy some of the time, money, and effort people put into it. Might as well get a part time job at that point.
Personally, in two years, between credit cards and bank accounts I've gotten $6,000 in realized worth (that is redeemed) and at least as much in unrealized worth. I've got my first rejection a few weeks ago.
This is a credit card blog that is independent, the only blog I look at: https://www.doctorofcredit.com