At this point it seems that many Europe nations are more "free" than the US. Now with same-sex marriage getting legal in germany the probably last big issue is resolved. You will not get extreme high salaries like in the US, but there is stuff like free higher education and getting serious medical care won't be expensive at all.
Also remember that the EU has a higher population than the US with very diverse countries to explore just a few hours apart, all rich of culture and stuff that is over thousand years old.
I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation and far greater taxes. Maybe you have a greater quality of life by certain measures, but I think the freedom point is hard to defend. Maybe I'm wrong?
Taxes are not higher everywhere, and where they are higher it's usually because there is really awesome infrastructure and a social safety net and other stuff you would normally want to finance collectively. Compare, say, the homeless situation in Berlin to that in San Francisco... or compare pretty much any bus system anywhere in the developed world to MUNI.
One freedom Europeans have is freedom from fear of the police, i.e. I don't think there's any country in Europe in which you might have to fear for your life when you're not doing anything wrong and happen to meet a cop, regardless of your skin color.
Also I think there's more political freedom in countries where small parties play a role in government, i.e. you don't have to choose between the Democrats or Republicans or a symbolic protest vote.
And while this varies by country, there are places where you can be just as "off the grid" as in the US and the bureaucracy will never find you (or even try). But I wouldn't try that in, say, Germany.
Anyway, that said I wouldn't propose that an American is likely to feel "more free" living in Europe, probably the opposite, but in some things they probably would be.
Source: US American living in Europe for a long time. :-)
Maybe taxes in California are crater than Croatia, but I would be very surprised if the average tax want much greater in Europe than in the US. Do you have specific places in mind?
I also think fear of police is overblown in the US (maybe I would feel differently if my skin were a different color, but this doesn't appear to have a basis in data), and "freedom from fear of police" isn't really a political freedom (at least in my mind) unless you are referring to police oppressing people for their speech, political affiliations, etc, which clearly is a non-issue in the US. That said, while the odds of being injured or killed by police are many times greater than in Europe, they are still miniscule. It seems analogous to the recently heightened risk of terrorist activity in Europe--many times greater than in the US, but still not a reason to avoid Europe.
I do think Europe is a good value proposition for a lot of people (I've lived there and occasionally consider trying to move back), but I don't think Europeans have more freedom.
The tax picture is complicated, as always, but consider Hungary, where VAT is very high (27%) but income tax is very low (15% flat tax). Vibrant tech scene, programmers are paid very well by local standards, etc.
Having gotten quite used to the mellow police of Europe (not that I've ever been arrested or anything) I find the militarized police of the US unnerving every time I go back. Not sure I'd call it a political freedom but having mostly-friendly cops even in a really big city is a big quality of life thing.
Plus, drinking beer on the tram (in Berlin) -- that's definitely a freedom you won't enjoy in California. :-)
Good example: There is no homeschooling allowed in Germany. And private schools and universities are rare. The public education system is full of international socialist propaganda.
You are not. In fact Europe tends to be worse. The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there. In the past years we have seen a huge flip to the right side. The eastern nations are largely in the hands of ultra-right wing politicians even worse than Trump. Germany stands but wait for the election this year and that might be gone, too. Britain is already leaving the party and France just dodged a Bullet but got Macron in return. It's not all bad here, but it keeps getting worse.
>> The main reason is, that law is now made in Brussels and people have no idea what's going on there.
False but typical argument. Some laws are voted in Brussels, all such laws have to be approved by the Europen Parliament whose members are directly elected (you elected a MEP, remember?), and many such laws are just harmonization of local laws that already existed in most member states.
The moment where we may have 'no idea' is when a law is drafted and negociated behind closed doors by the Commission, i.e the EU governments' representatives (your government and my government) who then conveniently blames Brussels for said 'closed doors', when it suits them.
There are reforms to be made in the EU for sure, but saying it is all-encompassing and secret is a mischaracterisation. The info is out there, it's just not spoon-fed to you by the media, mostly because it's boring. For example, what is being voted on can be accessed here:
http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-...
What freedoms do you think are missing in Europe? Owning a gun?
Taxes are higher because they include health insurance, free education, retirement benefits and unemployment insurance.
I believe it. I wonder if that figure assumes personal insurance and the like as opposed to corporate benefits. I imagine for the HN crowd, the US is the better financial bargain (obviously there are lots of other factors besides finances) but if I were low income maybe I would prefer the EU?
I consider myself a highly patriotic American and I used to think that France was much less free than the US, but after living here I have a different view. There seem to be fewer extremes in France: not so many rich people, not so many poor people. No one seems to get too worked up about anything. You can't so easily go buy dirt cheap, low quality food/clothes/cars/housing that are just going to cause you problems later. There is a ton of administration (see my comments elsewhere in this thread) but most of it you only have to do once. Drivers licenses last 15 years. You register you car once and pay tax once, not every year, and the tax isn't that much. No required safety and admissions tests. Property tax is really low (600 euros a year on a 200K euro house). Gas is more expensive, but everything else is generally the same as the US (I live outside Paris).
Auto insurance costs me 25 euros a month for two drivers, two vehicles, with unlimited personal liability and 100 million euro property damages liability (not a typo). Doctor's visits are 25 euros each time and basically no other fees at all (from what I can tell). It's cheap and easy to register a small business. I rarely see police. I've seen a car pulled over by police 1 time in 1 year.
Once you get all your paperwork in line and get "in the system" life is pretty good. It's calm and you have a lot of social protections which brings peace of mind. It's safe. Crime is low. Food quality is off the charts. If you haven't been to France, come just for the food. You'll never be the same. Food quality is high and prices are a little lower than in the US. You pay more in taxes, but not a lot more (ignoring having to pay US income tax as an expat).
So it has caused me to look at freedom differently. Here in France it feels like the government is actually on your side, working to protect you. I've never felt that way in the US. I'm sure France has it's corruption and injustices but it seems much lower than the US.
The US is more like the Wild West. You are free, but you have to defend yourself. You have to do everything on your own: plow the field, milk the cows, stand with a shotgun when someone rides in. It's a sort of "dangerous" freedom. I'd take that over being subjugated, but France seems to have a better perspective. I think the climate and culture are the reason why, not really the form of government. And I don't think there is as much racial or ethnic strife here.
So I think France is actually pretty free. But I don't know if the US would get the same results if it just implemented the same policies. I think there would need to be a cultural change first.
I like France, and I lived there for a short time (near Rennes) and just returned from a trip to Paris a few weeks ago. There is certainly a lot to like, my comment was only about the degree of freedom. Thanks for your thoughtful comment!
You don't have Trump, but other than Switzerland, any of the European countries are within a generation of being ruled by an autocrat with far more power than Trump. From Franco in Spain, De Gaulle in France, Hitler in Germany and even some the of post WWII Chancellors were pretty autocratic. In addition, Europe seems to have far more tolerance for government intervention in everyday life. In addition, especially in Germany, criminal speech codes have kept a lot of badness under the surface without a legal way to voice it.
Thus, IMHO there is a volcano under the surface, and if it goes off and someone like Trump comes to power,they will be controlling a more pervasive government that can do far more harm than the US government.
Germany is currently raiding people's homes for posting anything they deem "hate speech" online. Facebook can be fined 50 million now for not removing what the German government deems hate speech. No WrongThink allowed in Germany.
That isn't "freedom" in my mind and I think any member of HN should be horrified at the precedent being set for the future. What happens when someone who comes into power determines "hate speech" is anything that goes against them?
Ironically, Germany has returned to Nazi policies in their attempts to prove they aren't Nazis anymore.
Your freedom ends where my freedom begins. Hate speech only does harm other people, so why should we tolerate it? Sure it may be abused under circumstances, but afaik most people here are in favor of these laws. Just because you disagree doesn't make us less free. Oh and of course we're talking about obvious hate speech here, not suppressing political discussion.
By the way, we already had the "Stasi" in Germany and know exactly how real political censorship feels like. There is quite a difference between that and trying to protect peasants from being harassed to death.
The tone of your post indicates you have no idea what you are talking about. In Europe hate speech laws are a thing, essentially it is considered a form of libel and/or intimidation. It exists across most of Europe, and has existed for decades.
You may agree or disagree with that kind of (again, fairly common) legal framework, but this has nothing to do specifically with Germany or with 2017. The only news in this article is that until now typically they would act on social media only following complaint, whereas now they are acting as if it were traditional media (i.e. acting once it is published).
They might get higher numbers, but they are paid in Dollar which is less worth than Euro, also everything is more expensive there than it is here, especially rent and food.
Uh, what? Have you been to the United States before? Everything, and I mean everything is incredibly cheap here. I'm just like an average dev in flyover country and I max out my retirement savings, bought a house, and can go buy a BMW and fill it up with <$2.00/gal gasoline, oh and that's just on my income. Doesn't include spouse. And after I fill up with gas I can go to an average grocery store that is far larger than just about anything I've seen in all my European travels and buy like 50 avocados for $0.89/ea, then go buy a bottle of Grey Goose for $30, pour it out, then buy another one and pretend I'm in Europe paying Europe prices for things.
Right, which is why I said average. Average American grocery stores are nearby and sell a gigantic amount of food. And the quality is exactly the same or better.
Rent is far cheaper in the U.S. My last apartment was $450/month for 600 sq ft in a good neighborhood. I paid $650 for less than half of that in rural France.
Food is probably cheaper too, though not as dramatically.
I'm sure there are lots of perks to living in Europe, but rent is not among them.
For 600 sq ft? That's not hard to find anywhere in the Midwest. Here are dozens of results for Waterloo, IA for below $600, many of which are much larger than 600 sq ft:
Those figures don't normalize for apartment size. The "cost to buy" figures do, however, and they show the US costing less than half the price in Germany.
Strange, to me it's the converse experience, my appartement in downtown Montpellier, is cheaper and bigger than my girlfriend's appartement in south Scottsdale, AZ.
Also remember that the EU has a higher population than the US with very diverse countries to explore just a few hours apart, all rich of culture and stuff that is over thousand years old.
Oh, and of course we don't have Trump. :D