In this case, the other person said "Many people will just quietly write you off as a hopeless dweeb if you expose your laziness in this way."
Is that not a personal attack because it's hidden behind one layer of indirection?
>if we don't approach the problem this way, it's a downward spiral
I get that it's not easy moderating a site like this when there's only two of you to do the job, but once you've shown up in the thread, is it that much more work to call out everyone involved instead of just picking the last nasty comment?
You might be surprised at how much more work it is. We can't come close to reading everything, even in a context where we're already moderating, for the same reason cops don't catch everyone who's speeding.
If you notice a bad post going unmoderated, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. Users can help by flagging those, or by emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com.
No, it isn't. That "layer of indirection" changes it from a personal attack to a statement of fact. It's a lesson that I had to learn the hard way, and I said it because I wish someone had said it to me back in the day. If someone had, it would have saved me a lot of pain.
But now I understand why no one did. I will certainly never make the mistake of trying to offer this advice on HN again.
>That "layer of indirection" changes it from a personal attack to a statement of fact.
So if instead of calling you an ass, 'mixmastamyk has said to you "many people would think you're acting like an ass for commenting like this" -- would that also be something you wish people had said you back in the day? Or are you so convinced of the value of your "advice" that you wouldn't care what many people would think?
EDIT:
>I wish someone had said it to me back in the day. If someone had, it would have saved me a lot of pain.
I am genuinely sorry that people treated you so badly for asking questions.
>I certainly would not consider it a personal attack.
Fair enough. I suppose there's a certain type of person you've never had to interact with; but can you imagine the existence of such a person who, when they said "many people will just write you off as a hopeless dweeb", what they actually meant was "many people including myself..." or "all the people whose opinion matters..."?
In other words, the sort of person who, when they want to make a personal attack, hide behind the kind of language that lets them claim they're just stating a fact about what other people think?
After our little back-and-forth, I don't believe that you are that kind of person; and maybe its a problem with me that I'm too ready to connect insulting language with ill intent; I just find it easier all around to frame things in a way that avoids any misapprehensions (for example, by pointing out "stupid" questions by saying "HN users don't appreciate questions that could be easily answered by reading the article and using Google")
You're right. Asking if you could imagine such a person could be construed as implying that I'm only reacting to imaginary offenses like some sort of snowflake (after all, the word "imagine" was right there in my comment!)
So I'll be more clear; assholes that hide behind weaselly language are not imaginary; maybe I attach too much importance on not being mistaken for an asshole, and if that makes me a snowflake then so be it.
> maybe I attach too much importance on not being mistaken for an asshole
No, that's not your problem. (Though it's actually much more important to not actually be an asshole than to not be mistaken for one. People will make mistaken assessments of you throughout your life. If you let that bother you, you will never get anything done.)
Your problem is that you don't seem to understand what makes HN a cool place to hang out: there are really smart, successful people here who will give you incredibly high quality insights and answers to questions that you won't find anywhere else, and they'll do it for free. But the flip side of the bargain is that you not waste these people's time by asking stupid questions, i.e. questions whose answers are plainly stated in the linked article, or can be easily found with a simple Google search or on Wikipedia. If too many people break that rule, the cool kids will go away because they have better things to do with their time than read a site full of stupid questions. So if you ask a stupid question you will sometimes be called on the carpet for it, and sometimes the person calling you out will do it inartfully. There are a lot of aspies here.
But it is very important to understand that on HN the stupid question is the greater sin because those are what will drive the cool kids away more than the inartful calling out. (One of the things that makes the cool kids cool is that they actually appreciate it when someone calls them out because they learn something when that happens.) You can argue that lucb1e's question was not stupid, and if you win that argument, you can expect me to apologize. But if you focus on my use of the phrase "stupid dweeb" while tacitly conceding that lucb1e did ask a stupid question then you are missing the point: the stupid question does a lot more harm than the inartful calling-out, so we let the latter slide more than the former.
>you don't seem to understand what makes HN a cool place to hang out ... the stupid question does a lot more harm than the inartful calling-out
I guess I have a different perspective on HN than you do; because I've never noticed the "cool kids" wasting their time by griping about stupid questions (presumably they just scroll past them), and I've never seen anyone I consider one of the "cool kids" give warning that they were going to leave HN because of stupid questions.
EDITED to add: And I do know smart, successful, insightful people who don't post on HN precisely because of the kind of behaviors that you want to "let slide".
I'm not griping about the stupid questions. The occasional stupid question is forgivable. Everyone asks stupid questions sometimes. But the proper response to being called out for asking a stupid question is, "Wow, you're right, that was a stupid question, sorry about that." Not, "Hey, that wasn't very nice!"
HN is a site dedicated, ultimately, to high-tech entrepreneurship. In the startup world, if you don't do your homework, or worse, if you get offended when someone calls you out for not doing your homework, even if they do it undiplomatically, even if they level actual personal attacks at you, you will lose, and your competition will happily dance on your grave.
In this case, the other person said "Many people will just quietly write you off as a hopeless dweeb if you expose your laziness in this way."
Is that not a personal attack because it's hidden behind one layer of indirection?
>if we don't approach the problem this way, it's a downward spiral
I get that it's not easy moderating a site like this when there's only two of you to do the job, but once you've shown up in the thread, is it that much more work to call out everyone involved instead of just picking the last nasty comment?