Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Ask HN: Tech-cofounder feeling lost/burned-out. What to do?
90 points by starlord on June 16, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 58 comments
We raised a few hundred thousand seed sort of round sometime back. Have been working on product for more than a year now, recently launched about a month ago. Response has been sort of nice. Have a few thousand users doing transactions.

But I still feel lost and burned out. I built out the product from scratch, later we hired a few guys who are okay in terms of skills. Now I spend a lot of time guiding them to deal with the issues that keep cropping up every now and then. Trying to move away from being a single point of failure in the startup. Finally booked a vacation, but feeling quite guilty about it. I know I need some rest time, energy levels aren't what they used to be. But still feel guilty and will probably end up working 4-5 days as week on vacation as well...

What do you guys do to recover from such situations?

Motivation levels are getting very variable everyday. Had quit job 2+ years ago, started withdrawing a small salary about a year ago so personal liquidity situation isn't that great either. But now need to start to raise more money soon for company... Is it normal to feel quite screwed while running a company most of the time?



I agree with the others about vacation. It'd go a little further though: you should take a _true_ vacation, as in no phone, no internet, no nothing. What you gain from this is:

1. full recharge

2. peace of mind knowing that your company can survive without you

3. it will help you think ahead: you will realize that your immediate work is not the most important of your tasks. You need to focus on the future of your product rather than on operational issues.

3. less guilt about taking vacation

4. your employees / cofounder will feel empowered that you let them in charge for a little while

5. your employees will feel less guilty taking vacations themselves

On the other hand, the drawbacks of taking a full week off are:

6. 1 week of funding 'lost' - yes, but you will realize that you will quickly make up for the time you took off.

7. possible failures: yes, although you have 3 guys in your staff, they should be able to dig into issues, probably not as fast as you can, but, hey, you won't be debugging forever... So they've got to learn as well.

8. annoyed customers: yes, well, your product is not perfect yet, so that's the way it's going to be for that week.

In fact, I think what's important to realize is that if you find yourself in this situation, it means that your company made some mistakes somewhere. You guys made some trade-offs in favor of quality or time to market and at the expense of personal happiness. And now it's payback time. That "overwork" debt the company took is no longer sustainable.

I think the ability to go hands off is way underrated. It is a true skill that you need to develop. For your own sake, but also for the sake of your company.


This is the perfect answer! Nothing else matters in this situation. The only problem with the picture painted by OP is that he is reluctant to let go of control, which is exactly what he should have done a year ago, at least partially.

Nobody in the company should be irreplaceable, otherwise you have a single point of failure.

On a more practical side: don't work on your vacation (and I mean this in general - like ever) or it doesn't make sense to even go on one. If you must, you can try shorter breaks first so you get confident that the world is still turning once you get back. And do not answer phone calls during the breaks!


>less guilt about taking vacation

This, and make it clear in various forms (email, several personal meetings, via wife, via friends, et cetera) that any outcome of the state of the company after return is okay. It's the only way to ensure the vacation is effective: vacation with guilt is having a lot less effective vacation. "Freedom" (from the company) must be felt.


> peace of mind knowing that your company can survive without you

And if it doesn't, then hell, it wasn't going to survive with you either! So there's no need to let those thoughts consume you on your vacation.


This sounds good, helpful and a little relaxing. Thanks! I shall add "Going Hands Off" to next skill to acquire list :)


"When left to themselves, things tend to go from bad to worse" , Murphy


This... doesn't really help me right now, but resonates a lot with my current understanding of the world.


Yes, that's correct. The challenge is to accept that and go with the flow, rather than trying to swim upstream.


Love this, applies to so many things.


[flagged]


[flagged]


the first ever purely garbage spam comment on HN after many years! (that I've seen, anyway.) I wonder if the garbage-bot-pushers have finally added HN to their list.


There's plenty of them but most are auto blocked. You see these occasional flare-ups and then they usually die down just as fast when they realize it is pointless.


Short term: Take a break. Delegate. List the things that are painful/stressful and avoid on the days you're not feeling it. Limit email to twice a day. Don't use IRC/Chat if you can, it's too demanding on your attention. Take the vacation, leave the smartphone at home and let your mind rest.

Long term: Focus on moving to a point where you can take a step back. It's easy when you're a founder to become control-obsessed, which leads you feeling like you, and only you can fix XYZ. This is a precarious position to be in, and certainly isn't scalable. Think of this as the "what if I get hit by a bus" plan. All your efforts should be on proccesses, documenting and some key hires so that the company can run without you. Both for yours and the companies sake. After all, you need the option to retire/sell one day - the company MUST be able to run without you.


Went through the same. 3 years of no money and salary before we raised . It was worse for us, because we were doing fintech at a time when it was considered stupid and everyone who was doing Uber-of-X were raising incredible amounts of funding from the same coworking space.

You should definitely take a holiday - but here's my viewpoint. People don't burn out by working hard. In fact, people start getting depressed when they are not burning with purpose.

Burning out is a deeper symptom - I know because I had it and I realized what it was. It could be a combination of fear and frustration at what you are doing.

I have an alternate suggestion - talk to other cofounders. Nothing cheers you up as seeing other miserable people (it's true!). Gives you perspective and a country to belong to. I have come to realize that some startup meetups are actually therapy camps - I don't know of the US ones, but there are a couple in India.

One of the most interesting statements I heard while attending YC was "One of the reasons founders quit is because they think others had it easier". Emphasis on "easier".

Not sure who said it (I think mwseibel), but it was at least true in my case. It just made me work harder. Even if my startup had not survived, it was still worth it.


Could you please share which meetups in India?


Which city are you in ? If you're in Delhi, I'm happy to share stories of my misery ;) I'll buy.

91springboard events are pretty good and non-hypey. Headstart Network (though they have reduced their activities quite a bit).

Hasgeek events in Bangalore are borderline - the tech content is good, but has a fair amount of "unicorn" domination, which tends to worsen the therapy.

We had organized a "Reboot Conference" in delhi for failed founders [1]. Pretty damn awesome... could not follow through with it because of lack of time.

[1] https://www.slideshare.net/akshayblitz/reboot-conference-del...


A vacation tainted by work can be worse than not going. If you really must work on your vacation, decide those days beforehand and ensure that you're of touch for the remaining days.

I once took a "dream trip" to Iceland with extended family, but made the mistake of not properly signing off from work. We saw all the natural wonders of the island and everyone had a great time... Except me. My primary memory of the trip is sitting in a hostel kitchen with my laptop while everyone else is out playing in a park. That's when I understood that I'm going to miss out on my children's lives completely if I keep going like this.


I understand. I have had a few of these experiences in life where I still end up working and missing out on the "vacation" part. I need to move away from these partially-toxic vacations...


Well, you can continue but then you'll just crash harder. Talk with your co-founders (assuming you have any), explain the situation and tell them you really need time off. It's a very good test of how solid your co-founder relations are, if they understand and let you take a break your company will likely succeed because you are capable of dealing with crisis in a constructive way. If they force you to stay or if it results in a fight then most likely in the long run the company will not do well because it does not know how to deal with unforeseen events.

Whatever happens: you take that break. Otherwise the price only gets higher.

Companies can become millstones around your neck, if the company is now selling to a few thousand users and you are able to draw a small salary a break should be possible. After all, if something else that is serious (say a car accident) would happen to you then they would have to cope with that as well. This is fortunately something a lot more controllable than that.

FWIW any company with more than 3 people should be able to continue to function for at least a couple of months without major change if one of the principal players has to bow out. Life happens.

As for the recovery: try to do as little as possible, and if you do decide to do something make sure it is as physical as you can stand. That's the fastest way to recovery.

Best of luck to you.


Take a proper holiday and give your team the space they need to show you that you're not a single point of failure. Give them a phobne number that is only to be called in dire emergency. Turn off data and Wifi on your phone.


Vacations don't help. They are periodic relief from everyday stress that you feel guilty about. Vacations should be a treat, NOT a relaxation.

To relax every day:

1. Work out. I get up between 3-4am and (edit: low intensity) work out. 7 days/week. Improves my mood _every single day_.

2. Find something that relaxes you and do it every week. Golf? Do it. Massage? Do it. Sex? You get the idea.

The point is that the only person who can help you get what you want from this world is you. No silver bullet exists.


> Sex?

heh good one, where and how do I get it? On a serious side though I agree about finding a physical activity which make one feel positively and constructively tired and relaxed.


If you can't get it easily for free, or it would take too much time, pay for it. This goes for everything.

I could easily have my girlfriend massage me, but I choose to get a professional. If my girlfriend is too busy for sex, I'm not going to bother her and/or beg.


What time do you go to bed at?


Between 9 and 9:30 most nights.


This is fairly important information. In my experience most people go to bed much later so saying you get up at 3am is, rightly or wrongly, automatically associated with too little sleep. You get around 7 hours of sleep per night which is quite healthy and probably a more meaningful data point.


My alarm is actually set for 4:30 am, but my internal clock wakes me up between 3-4 for some reason. I do think I can use better sleep, but I think diet affects that significantly.


If you continue and don't change anything, you will have a break down from stress,overwork, constant problem solving, not looking after yourself

You need to - totally relax

try music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yd7An4Ztes&feature=player_e...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrwuKDrJI9c

meditation Detachment from overthinking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSE8iJC51BY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vx8iUvfyCY

For kids BUT My Fav The hot air balloon ride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlv6Y1tq1sQ

yoga, tai chi, swimming pool lengths, run or walk, play with your pet, volunteer

- no work on Vacation & plan next Vacation now

- employ extra help/work experience/volunteer

- delegate

- in your normal routine include sleep, exercise, good food, good company/ social events, plan future fun things, read positive articles/books, learn something new, go out into nature, cook a delicious meal for someone you like/love

- listen to Mindfulness podcasts about being in the present moment/ focus only on what you are doing SOUNDTRACKS http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=107 (weekly podcasts) http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=22&oTopID=22

- find some Apps like http://smilingmind.com.au/

Email me if you want some more info smith.louise@optusnet.com.au

Cheers Louise

Louise Smith PSYCHOLOGIST (Assoc MAPS) (QCT), B. A. (Hons) (Psych) (Japanese & Music), Dip. T. Prim. & Spec. Ed. (Hearing Impaired)


For me, the experience of founding a company is quite similar to giving myself bipolar depression. I tend to go from soaring heights to terrible lows almost daily. So yeah, I'd agree that starting something new is about managing feeling completely screwed all the time.

Managing is the key word here. First, you need to keep reminding yourself that this shit is hard and feeling totally screwed is part of it. It's why they pay you the theoretical by bucks. Second, you need to find somewhere to put the bad. Ever done any rock climbing, long distance running or serious weight training? If no, it's time to start. Find a healthy hobby.

While we're on the topic of managing, you've got to learn to delegate.

And finally, take the vacation and don't work at all!


This was posted on HN a month ago; lots of thoughtful comments here: Recovering from Burnout and Depression [1].

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14320392


Wow. The analogy from the top comment hit me like a truck. Thanks for sharing.

I feel like this despair effects all the people I know who work ultra-hours in a marketing related startup. Or anyone who works at Symantec.


I would discuss this with your co-founders - highly likely that they are in the same situation. Agree a schedule where you can all get breaks while remaining in touch to handle emergencies - I'd suggest a couple of phone calls a day (first thing in morning and in evening) rather than email/slack/whatever.

Personally, I found that when I was in a similar situation years ago going on a vacation where you do something helps a lot. My wife arranged a vacation and signed me up for a few dinghy sailing courses - which I hadn't done before and they were brilliant.


I feel a personal attachment to this question because I could have written it two years ago down to how much money we raised and how successful we were at the time. I see the right advice in this thread but I want to highlight from my own experience.

* Reach out honestly to family, friends, and coworkers, today. If there is some idea of pride or ego holding you back and influencing you to keep it to yourself and deal with it "like a man" kick that shit to the curb now. What you are trying to accomplish on a personal level for yourself, your family, or your team, is much more important then that.

* Personal resources like happiness, hope, drive, passion, etc, are finite but they have much deeper reserves then we could ever imagine. If like me you frequently feel like you've "lost" any of the above, know that you do in fact have much more, and, like mentioned above, you can find help from others especially in this regard.

* Talk to others with similar experiences. HN is a good start but it is not the end of this conversation. There are many smart and well meaning people here. But only so many have been through what you have and small details such as where you are dealing with these problems, where in life you are at this moment, and what your life has been like, do matter and you should seek people who can relate as well as the many who don't.

I'd be happy to share some of my personal failings in this regard if you want to reach out. I don't imagine I have all the answers or even ones relevant to you personally, but who knows.

benjamin.stanley.jones@gmail.com


Thanks a lot for this! I will be reaching out to you.


That sounds horrible. I can only echo the advice given here. Carve out time for yourself, exercise, and balance your life. A balanced life is the key to avoiding burnout (this after 25 years of specializing in tiger teams and rapid prototyping).

Also, there is a startup opportunity here for someone. A specialty of concierge medicine around concierge psychology for startup founders, CTOs, and CEOs. Not sure whether it would be profitable, but given that it would likely save company productivity and in some cases make the difference between failing or not, I'd think it would be very profitable. I do not have the chops or desire to execute on it though. Feel free to use the idea if you want to run with it. If you do and want to compensate me then remember that nine nines (99.9999999%) of success is execution, not the idea. If you succeed, and still want to compensate me, and I'm at the point where I can use it, then give me attribution and free access to the service for life and we'll be 100% good.


Balanced life sounds great, but is damn difficult to maintain with consistency... work almost always wins. I might take up the idea in sometime, when i perhaps get back to normal and have more time at hand.


I've read a blog of a solo game developer recently, who's been developing a game for 2-3 for years full time. His conclusions regarding breaks and burn-out is that it works best for him to take a week-long vacation every 2-3 months. Without it, he noticed decreased concentration and motivation. I think it may be solid advice for anyone doing challenging work.


That's essentially the basecamp's working schedule! 6 weeks of work, 1 week of tying loose ends and 8'th week sabbatical.


could you link the blog? sounds interesting


Consider the possibility that you may have your personality built in a certain way that led you to structure your business to depend on you? Maybe deep down you kind of like it to be this way, only that now it's being increasingly too much and you can't shoulder it all? I know that I have been guilty of that kind of attitude in my personal life. Maybe you could benefit from talking to a psychologist? If only so that you could get some leads on what literature you could study to explore this. It is very enlightening and freeing when you start to understand the reasons behind your personality.

And yeah, I deducted all of this from your username :-p


I guess, you are correct in quite a few observations. I shall talk to a psychologist soon. Thanks!


I have no answer, but few questions. If you offload your stress to someone while on vacation or short breaks, will that solve one-man problem? Or will it become two-man, one of them having no big interest? If you take a day off per week, does your service lose 1/7 of its quality, or is that day a complete show stopper?

Can stress points be determined, classificated and resolved to processes (some classes refused)? Will clients appreciate that? Is there economic in creating departments that will take problems as a whole, not as distinct persons? Do you have non-key features? How much do these cost to you?


I'm in a similar position but if I leave the company will die with 100% certainty. My cofounder has no idea and the company is doing well and growing but it is a living nightmare. So many uncertainties and we're in a problematic market where there are a lot of room for errors with dire consequences.

I'll give up a lot of potential money if I leave but I don't care. The biggest problem is that my cofounder would never forgive me. I can't even imagine his reaction.


You should really talk to your cofounder... If your company relies so much on you, and if you're burnt out, then your company is NOT doing well at all. You should let your cofounder know, so that you can take action together before the whole thing blows up. Your cofounder will not forgive you for hiding the fact that the company is in a dire situation.


That sounds horrible. Are there any steps you can take to enable your cofounder, or someone else, to take over some of the highest risk tasks?


Can I get more details?


Are you the aforementioned co-founder by any chance? Geez


> Now I spend a lot of time guiding them to deal with the issues that keep cropping up every now and then.

Pick the best guy and start relying on him more. You really do need to delegate. It's not only for your own health but for the health of the company as well. Your 'hit by a truck' factor is approaching 1. If you get hit by a truck, the company is probably done for.


If you continue and don't change anything, you will have a break down from stress,overwork, constant problem solving, not looking after yourself

You need to - totally relax

try music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yd7An4Ztes&feature=player_e...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrwuKDrJI9c

meditation Detachment from overthinking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSE8iJC51BY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vx8iUvfyCY

For kids BUT My Fav The hot air balloon ride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlv6Y1tq1sQ

- yoga, tai chi, martial arts,swimming pool lengths, run or walk, play with your pet, volunteer

- no work on Vacation & plan next Vacation now

- employ extra help/work experience/volunteer

- delegate

- in your normal routine include sleep, exercise, good food, good company/ social events, plan future fun things, read positive articles/books, learn something new, go out into nature, cook a delicious meal for someone you like/love

- listen to Mindfulness podcasts about being in the present moment/ focus only on what you are doing SOUNDTRACKS http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=107 (weekly podcasts) http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=22&oTopID=22

- find some Apps like http://smilingmind.com.au/

Email me if you want some more info smith.louise@optusnet.com.au

Cheers Louise

Louise Smith PSYCHOLOGIST (Assoc MAPS) (QCT), B. A. (Hons) (Psych) (Japanese & Music), Dip. T. Prim. & Spec. Ed. (Hearing Impaired)


Check your health, exercise routine, sleep... Talk to doctor. Often it is not a burnout, but bad lifestyle.


How about this? Go on your vacation, don't work at all, and if things don't melt down, you can relax a little bit!


Create a 'do not disturb' time in your office so you can focus on work. End work after your office hours.


Try reading: A Technique for Producing Ideas ‑ by James Webb Young


LOTS of good ideas in total here !


Here's what I would do:

VACATION - Do not cancel it, and do not work while on vacation. You need rest, and working a few days a week is not rest, it's work. Do not feel guilty. Your startup needs it as much as you. And above all, your number one priority is to your health - mental and physical.

It's a false dichotomy, though. The startup will survive a couple of weeks without you. At most, it won't grow as much (or at all) - big deal. If you're afraid your tech team will burn the house down, don't let them touch production. In a fast-moving startups there's always tech debt piling up. While you're recuperating, let them clean up things, fix issues, write tests, etc - improve the state of things - without pushing anything to production. It's still useful, important work, and it will temporarily remove you from the critical path.

Do not bring equipment on which you'd be able to work while on vacation. If you do get a panicked phone call, you'll feel terrible about not jumping in and fixing things, if you can. It's easier if you just are not in a position to do that all. If you can, leave your phone (or bring a dumbphone instead).

When you do return to work, start by introspecting why you're feeling burn out. Sure there's ton of work and user base or revenue is not growing as fast as you'd hope, but there might be some other reason: maybe you had a nice clean architecture and now it gets all trampled over by several people just rushing to build things? Maybe the people are not as productive a you hoped? Maybe they're not as passionate as you and you feel like you have to force them to work? Maybe they're not responsible/pedantic enough and you feel like you have to clean up after them all the time?

Or maybe your biz/other cofounders just expect you to conjure the solutions quickly, don't understand it takes time to build something that'll actually work (mostly)?

All of these fears and frustrations are normal, but they should not be buried, instead they should be addressed. First, identify the actual point that frustrates you most. If it's something you're not 100% aligned with your cofounders, talk with them. And talk some more, until they understand your frustration, you understand them, and you devise something that'll avoid it. Don't stop talking until that is fixed. Don't bury it.

If the frustration is due to (your interaction with, or performance of) your dev team: first, make sure evefyone's on the same page regarding what's important (ie. tell them explicitly). If you feel they're slow, tell them. If you feel they write buggy code, tell them. It's way better for them to be told explicitly than to have an angry, frustrated, burned out boss (and they can ense these things from a mile off, trust me9.

Then, try to document best practices. Read this for an example https://sivers.org/delegate (and if you need reading suggestion for the vacation, read everything else Derek wrote). Use every problem as an example of how it could be done better. You can start by enumerating and documenting things that could or will go wrong or need special attention while you're not away. Think of it now, document it now, and you'll avoid frantic phone calls while you're on a vacation.

Fix yourself first (vacation), your startup after that (delegation, expectation).

Good luck!


Agree with everything said about taking your break, but I think you also should set your expectations properly. 2 years without a vacation when starting a business is not so much, it's actually pretty standard I think. So are 80 hour weeks and everybody else in th company making money except for you. I don't know any successful entrepreneurs that are not complete workaholics.


This "grin and bear it like a big boy" attitude is toxic IMHO.


If you assume that 80 hours weeks are neccessary, you will work 80 hours long weeks whether it is needed or not and whether it is actually effective or detrimental.


There are lots, they just also aren't egotistical maniacs who need to let everyone know how pious they are.

If you want a really high profile example: DHH from Basecamp.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: