He said that some people drew inspiration from construction, where there are designers and builders. One or two highly paid architects draw up the plans. Then you can hire a bunch of cheap labor to build it, say a bridge. This belief leads to a dichotomy in software companies, where one person is the "architect" and others are just "regular" programmers --- often outsourced to the lowest bidder.
From Jack Reeves he cites the epiphany "that in fact the source code is a design document and that the construction phase is actually the use of the compiler and linker." There is little repetitive, mindless work in programming, because as most of you know, "anything that you can treat as construction can and should be automated." Therefore, "In software all the effort is design . . ."
The fault in your argument is that there's no design/construction dichotomy, but rather a gradient: everything can be viewed upon as a design from close enough distance, and everything can be a construction looking from the high above. For business people all the programming is just very, very low-level construction, and there's no design to it. Damn, even hiring programmers and creating companies is just a construction stage to them.
And from the practical standpoint, the truth is that perceiving a lot of programming "just as a construction" just works. For the better or worse. It is cheaper and usually reliable enough to design the system in a way that a lot of the components would be plugins not depending one on the other that can be outsourced to anyone. Even if some fail, the system continues to work while you hire new people to rewrite some components. Sure, maybe it would be more efficient and "cool" to hire a really smart guy (or do it yourself, if you believe you can) to write it as really optimized monolith system, but if this isn't required, it is usually less risky to build something not so sophisticated, and improve it if need be. It is usually ok, that some parts of the system may fail. Fuck it, let's not lie to ourselves: there always are some parts of the system that fail, whether you think it's "acceptable" or not, let's just take it into account.
Sure, but there is a cost to automation. We all know the programmers who will attempt to automate God if left to their own devices. cough At some point there is a tradeoff between automating something, and sending an email to an intelligent human being who maybe isn't god level at software architecture but who can fill out some organizational context with pidgen code.
I think the idea that the only code that needs to get written is type of a decorator on a subtype Haskell kind of stuff is wrong. It's the same fallacy as people who say we just need physics and all of the natural sciences will shake out of it. We need Richard Stallmans and Terry Davis's to write that stuff for sure, and maybe they are the only True Programmers out there. But there's an awful lot of automation engineering that needs to get done too, and some of that really is just putHotDogIn(basket) (unless Debbie from accounting emails you to say no) and wget http://wordpress.com/dist.zip
Let me say it another way: there are and will always be gnarled programmers who think in koans and concoct the words we code in, but spread across that will be a thick layer of humans embedded in human systems mapping the minutia of the day in code. I daresay we'll all be doing it.
I suppose I agree that work is all design. But the code isn't the part that's being designed. The code is just the log format.
Their back-end code might be bollocks, and I can certainly believe that judging by how sluggish their FB app feels on my phone, but the fact is that they've conquered the Internet (together with Google and a couple of other companies). It's a fact that I personally hate, but they're still winners in the end.
Fyi to help set the record straight... RG's "Worse Is Better" is not shorthand for "worse quality" is better than "better quality".
Richard Gabriel was trolling readers with the word "worse" for comical effect. His essay is: "simpler with less features" wins in the marketplace of ideas more than "complex". His observation isn't about "quality".
That said, there is another meme with the exact same 3 words called "worse is better" which does stand for "worse _quality_ is better than better _quality_" but that's not related to RG. It's just the more common interpretation of those 3 words -- especially for 99% of people that are not familiar with RG's original essay.
tldr: Richard Gabriel trolled people so hard that "worse is better" has taken on a life of its own divorced from his original thesis
Only it IS about quality.
The simpler and with less features" examples he gave were examples of broken implementations, that will succesful in getting "out of the door" and having viral acceptance, have resulted on lots of issues, lost man-months, and piles upon piles of hacks.
That's regardless of what Gabriels himself thought he was saying.
And while "getting out of the door" pronto might be good for a product, it's not good for infrastructure software.
I have to say that reading the thing again I don't really think that's accurate, since he also talks about sacrificing correctness for the sake of ease of implementation.
RG's use of "correct" doesn't mean that it's ok for a program to return "2+2=5" which is "better" than "2+2=4".
To refer back to the original essay, RG's use of words like "correct" and the "Right Thing" requires careful reading because he's deliberately abusing those terms to burnish the opposing side's philosophy. He's playing with the adjectives "worse/correct/right" to present both sides of the New Jersey vs MIT philosophy.
RG says that MIT approach of "backing out of the system routine" is the "correct" way for argument's purposes. It doesn't mean it's The Universally True Correct Way. RG doesn't state it explicitly but the The New Jersey approach of adding user code to test for a failure is also "correct". There are 2 competing semantics of "correct". His observation is that the one with the simpler implementation will spread.
Maybe another analogous example would be clearer. Suppose a C++ programmer would label the "~destructors()" as the "correct" approach to clean up code. No extra user code has to be written to do housekeeping after each object goes out of scope.
However, a C programmer disagrees and "destructors/constructors" are complicated with "spooky action at a distance". They'd rather write explicit wrapper functions called "cleanup()".
Both the C and C++ camps are disagreeing about which "correctness" is better. In this case, RG would award the "correct" label to the C++ philosophy for the sake of a creating a provocative essay.
(It's not an exact analogy because the more complicated C++ programming has survived along side the simpler C for decades.)
Whether one prefers MIT over New Jersey, it doesn't change the fact that RG is not saying that "low quality is better than high quality".
But it means it's ok to occasionally return Null, instead of of a guaranteed 4.
You're interpreting my example literally instead of just seeing it as one example of "correctness" that is a binary TRUE or FALSE. My point is that RG is not writing about "correctness" in that binary sense.
>, so I'm having a hard time seeing the distinction"
The NJ approach of writing user code to check for an error is also correct. It's just a different approach to "correctness."
If you only see "correctness" in binary terms instead of competing abstraction levels of simplicity-vs-complexity, then yes, you will not see RG's distinction.
I don't understand where the confusion in conversation happened. If I'm trying to dismiss literal "correctness" as a binary interpretation, why would I think it applies to Facebook?
To make it more explicit: I don't think OP (paganel) link from RG's "worse is better" to Facebook is relevant. He interpreted RG incorrectly or he misremembered what that essay was actually about since it's been 12 years.
But what if they aren't in an optimal position? What if having a higher quality code base all along would have let them dominate social media more and faster, and perhaps be more successful in areas they have stumbled in the past?
A lot of people (especially non-technical folks and inexperienced coders) seem to think that code quality comes at a cost and that a bad code base full of technical debt is just a side effect of fast iteration and the cost of being quick to market. I say that's crap. A higher quality codebase with less technical debt actually improves speed tremendously because it lets you iterate faster with fewer rewrites down the road and it will be more stable and result in fewer distractions from having to put out fires with unforeseen bugs making it into production.
A sloppy codebase with technical debt is much more costly on your ability to go to market and add features and iterate.
Well, I don't know. What if spending so much time on quality would have led to it never catching on? It is curious that the world is full of compromises like Unix, QWERTY, C, VHS, etc., all of which had arguably superior competitors that failed to catch on.
Your reply includes the very fallacy that I mention in my comment that you're replying to. Namely that better quality code requires more time. Again, I say, that's not really the case. If you write better code you will spend less time debugging, adding features and iterating in the future, and I would argue it takes less time to write better code once you're in the habit of it.
But of course any number of things are possible, they could have written better code and failed. They could have written even worse code than they did and failed. Who knows. My point wasn't "Facebook should have written better code and then Zuckerberg would have another $10 billion." My point was that the comment I was replying to was based on some assumptions that, for me, aren't true.
> It is curious that the world is full of compromises like Unix, QWERTY, C, VHS, etc., all of which had arguably superior competitors that failed to catch on.
But it's the arguably superior that matters here. For each of them there are circumstantial reasons why they beat out competitors, and it's usually not really because of the mythical "worse wins" baloney. In reality there's usually a number of reasons that combine together for a given result, and that's certainly the case with, for example, VHS vs. Beta. Costs of tapes and players, Sony's tight control of Beta, camcorders, etc. all combine together.
Anyway, we're way off on a tangent now. My point was it's a fallacy that writing worse code is a short cut. It's like driving badly vs. driving well. You're still going to the same place on the same roads.
However, given a minimum bar of quality, where I've seen the biggest quality issues crop up are due to the layering of code over time written by different developers with views of the problem domain and different priorities. Solving these kinds of issues often requires major time investment in refactoring to align the new worldview with the old. Doing so successfully requires a clear vision that is harder and harder to coalesce as the code base gets more complex. Good architecture mitigates, but is only possible to the extent that the fundamental business logic allows.
Deciding when to refactor and realign older code and architecture is where the hard decisions are, not so much in today's coding choices.
Yes, that's probably true. But you'll spend more time now. Sometimes that might be time you don't have.
You don't save time by skimping on quality, it's foolish to think otherwise.
We shouldn't attribute Facebook's success to poor quality code, unless we really believe that 429 people working that that slow sluggish app is productive. Do you?
Maybe Facebook would be in a better situation than they are if they had a firm foundation? What happens when a competitor comes along and knocks on their door? That mess of code becomes an anchor.
They succeeded not because "worse is better" but because ...they succeeded, maybe because they had the greatest social network in the world to expand within, or because of some other reason we don't know. But they didn't succeed because of worse is better, they succeeded in spite of it.
Worse is better makes the observation that doing right thing slows you down. Often, an ok solution is much quicker to get finished than a great one. And it concludes that the projects that prioritize getting stuff done over code quality will suceeed.
Would facebook be as successful as it is today if it had taken longer to ship features, but maintained higher code quality? Who knows.
But the intuition in worse is better, which matches with my own experiences, is that making that trade off would have cost Facebook, as other faster moving projects closed the gap.
It's very possible that a better architecture would have allowed them to move quicker and make more changes without breaking as much stuff. It's possible considering features before haphazardly implementing them would be beneficial overall.
Nobody can really know that, and to apply intuition to what is an extreme outlier seems off.
It's written between the article's lines, so to speak, but it seems like the bad code quality was generated in part by FB moving at a very fast pace. I think they wouldn't have been as successful as they are had they chosen a slower path with more "correct" code and architecture.
> What happens when a competitor comes along and knocks on their door?
They successfully managed to "eat" and integrate both Instagram and WahtsApp, both worthy contenders at the time, and they're now on their way to stealing Snap's lunch, so they've proved to be pretty resilient on this front. Not to forget how they successfully kept Google+ in check.
a big part of their success was delivering results... if they hadn't quickly crapped everything out of the door, how would facebook look today?
I can't see the point in Twitter (neither could a number of my colleagues when it was mentioned at a dinner a couple of weeks ago, none of them used it).
MySpace was a genuine competitor, but allowing teenagers to style their own HTML made for some horrendous pages.
Facebook had a nice clean interface, as well as network effects. I was signed up to a similar service at the time - HighFive I think it was called, but the network effect was what snowballed with Facebook and led to its success. At the time I didn't see either one being better or more stable than the other.
Is not all so different from "Fewer patients die when heart surgeons are on vacation". Of course your site is going to be more reliable when nobody is changing it! You should be worried if reliable isn't the steady state, and it requires constant changes to stay up!
What counts as an incident?
> Figure 1 includes data from an analysis of the timing of events severe enough to be considered an SLA (service-level agreement) violation. Each violation indicates an instance where our internal reliability goals were not met and caused an alert to be generated. Because our goals are strict most of these incidents are minor and not noticeable to users of the site.
So these are minor issues. The parent article is paraphrasing at best, and jumping to conclusions at worst. From Facebook:
> We believe this is not a result of carelessness on the part of people making changes but rather evidence that our infrastructure is largely self-healing in the face of non-human causes of errors such as machine failure.
They then list a number of sane strategies to mitigate this.
But then their view is slanted towards UI changes. Performance improvements and other subtleties are features too.
But I've learned that that there are two kinds of development teams:
(A) the teams that are "moving fast and breaking things" while "creating business value"
(B) the teams that are "only maintaining legacy code", "not getting anything done", "costing a lot of money" and "complaining too much" about code quality that team A wrote.
As an engineer, I've learned that it's less work and more rewarding to be on the (A) teams than on the (B) teams.
It is bad organizational structure.
There was much panic and thinking it would all go horribly wrong, and indeed it was madness for the first week. Then the people who took over started to stabilise some of the worst parts of the system and it all sort of fell into place after that.
Fast forward a couple of months, the project was pretty much hands off and we all realised that keeping a whole team on that project had pretty much been a giant waste of money. They did nothing but create fires for themselves to fix. The Team B's exodus was actually a really great thing for the company.
I suppose the thing to learn here is, that you need redundancy in your teams. If we hadn't had other devs to step in and take over, it would have been a bit different. Still, I'm not convinced that a handful of contractors couldn't have been brought in to the same result, just more expensive.
Both kinds of teams are needed. Or even better, teams should not be divided like this, everyone should do their shares of both breaking things, and creating value and cleaning the mess and scaling the things.
>>As an engineer, I've learned that it's less work and more rewarding to be on the (A) teams than on the (B) teams.
It is certainly more rewarding to be on the (A) team, but do we always have a choice?
When you find yourself in the janitor role, time to move on, because your employer doesn't think much of you.
oh my god
Just the other day I was dealing with Spring's declarative transactional support. Here's a fun read: http://docs.spring.io/spring-framework/docs/4.2.x/spring-fra...
If the names were more abstract, as in some java code, then it would be somewhat dubious in value. Most of these seem very precise however.
Just saying "YAGNI" and "KISS" doesn't actually make the resulting code simpler. Why? You do have some things to build and refusing to lay out a plan for what that is going to be doesn't stop that. It just means that the complexity doesn't have a clear narrative
Facebook is successful for reasons that have almost nothing to do with their code, however, and as long as that's true there isn't a reason for them to change how they develop their software. In that sense, code quality doesn't actually matter (at least, until it does).
Until we see someone taking market share away, I'd argue it doesn't. Facebook still retains top tier people regardless of any perceived quality problems.
Sorry you left. I just started here, and I do agree that what I feel about code quality isn't generally shared here. But as I get older, I start realizing that in the end, as long as things work relatively well at our scale and in our problem domain (we're not medical device software, we can fail) alls well.
Personally, I like for humans to be pickier than they seemed to be at Facebook, but it really opened my eyes to the value of what I think of as a "keep your garbage in your own trash can" approach to quick-and-dirty coding. As long as you didn't spill your trash into the hallway, the machines were satisfied, and your reviewer didn't find your work to be _insane_, your work shipped.
[EDIT: And I find that this can often be a wonderfully pragmatic way to work if you have the tools to keep you from doing harm.]
There's no reasonable way to say FB should have less engineers without being a high level director of the company.
I'm going to assume you don't literally mean only company directors can levy logical criticisms of a company.
Consider the fact that the FB app itself was built with a very small team to begin with and only once it became 80-90% feature-complete did the exponential growth in engineers suddenly become "needed".
I can understand why Microsoft needs tons of engineers. OSes are complicated and have lots of moving parts (drivers, file systems, kernel, etc) that are all absolutely required and must be constantly updated, even without bringing their other products into it. But Facebook? At its core, it's a single webapp that serves simple relatively static pages. Yes, at web scale, so it's not entirely trivial.
My explanation is that Google and Facebook face a similar dilemma: most of their revenue comes from a single, relatively simple core product. To really optimize that core product, they might need a couple of dozen highly skilled engineers, along with a lot of equipment to scale it.
But that's not why they hire thousands. It's because they're both constantly trying to branch out for growth. In terms of revenue it is fair to say that strategy has been a failure for Google and except for a few of the "bells and whistles" FB has added like IM, probably for them as well. This problem is caused by the way that tech companies are primarily valued by perceived growth potential rather than actual earnings. They can get away with hiring lots of useless people because capital costs in this industry are fairly low.
The problem with design, in software, is not that most people forget to do it. It's that they never learn to do it. It always comes back to bite you.
I don't want to start a discussion on design, and how most people mess it up because of lack of skill or experience therein. But hacker culture seems to be allergic to design, and hacker culture seems to be what everybody strives for these days.
Here's a simple example:
Split the user population into 365* groups. Assign them to days of the year. Test new code only the group whose day has come up. Follow them until they stop having problems. Now you can deploy that to a month's worth of groups. All good? Deploy to everyone.
Yes, that means that you can't have more than 365 changes in simultaneous development. Tough.
*Yes, yes, leap years. Take a day off from deploying.
They have to investigate it, revert or fix the bad code and start the deployment process again.
Only that it's not 365 groups, because at the size of FB that would be several million people.
The problem isn't that it's impossible -- it's that it's more expensive than just hiring one more engineer to keep papering over the problems.
All of them. Are your roads more reliable when they're constantly being changed or when they are just being maintained? Is NASA achieving its reliability by constantly changing the designs of their ships, or by reusing the same design over and over?
Arguably, with formal verification, you could ensure large parts of your system are perfectly reliable given simple assumptions.
Yes. But a fixed formally verified system will still be more reliable than a formally verified system being constantly changed.
What was said wasn't that FB couldn't be more reliable. It's that they are already so reliable that only new changes introduce problems. Sure you can still work on minimizing those problems, but that's a different point.
> "That’s 429 people working, in some way, on the Facebook iOS app. Rather than take the obvious lesson that there are too many people working on this application, the presentation goes on to blame everything from git to Xcode for those 18,000 classes."
How does the author know that 429 is too many? How does the author know that FB's goals and functionality can be best achieved with fewer people/classes. This just reads like a classic "Why is Google so big, I can do that in a weekend" comment (https://danluu.com/sounds-easy/)
> "Our site works when the engineers go on holiday"
This is pretty much universally true for any dynamic site where engineers are constantly adding new features. Change always comes with risks. Changing code is always more likely to break something in the very-short-term, compared to not changing code. I have a hobby site (shameless plug, http://thecaucus.net) which has been running in auto-pilot for the past year, and almost never breaks, because there are virtually no moving pieces. The fact that the FB site breaks more often when engineers are making changes to it, is just repeating a universal law of software development.
I do think that the organizational structures at most large companies are bloated, inefficient, non-transparent, and produce sub-par code. I had high hopes when I read the article's headline, but the arguments presented simply aren't very persuasive.
I'd also love to hear an update to the "Our site works when the engineers go on holiday" claim.
Isn't this an inevitable outcome once your systems are actually reliable? I've been reading the Google SRE book and they make the same point: every new feature (read: change) is risky. Hence they delay deployments once their "error budget" starts running low.
Seems to me that the only systems that don't work more reliably when the engineers are out are the ones which require hands on deck just to keep them running.
Even if they didn't move fast and break things, they would still have code quality issues. It's just the nature of a huge codebase like they have. And let's face facts - the development process needs to be suitable to the type of problem being solved. This is not a life and death situation and users would value new features, more than extreme reliability and consistency.
This generally worked, except when a lot of refactoring was needed. Occasionally, we would learn after the fact that one of our designs, programs, etc. was fundamentally flawed in some way, but we couldn't fix it with a series of moderate changes. Those cases really need a dedicated refactoring effort.
Although I've never worked on a company with the size of FB, and I believe the same logic wouldn't apply to them.
They have to keep creating stuff, as fb still has a lot of potential on becoming way more profitable.
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I'm not sure the author understand what a Research team is and what it does. Trying out a new solution to an existing problem is sort of their job. I'm also not sure how a research team publishing a paper discussing an alternate solution indicates anything about the company's "code quality".
I've become very cynical since the past year or so because there is a lot of noise/articles on the net, all knowing what's best for you or wrong with what you are doing. Yet without context or true authority to talk about it. My question these days when I read such article, "What has the author done that is equivalent?" There is rarely anything to be found.
Facebook might have a "code quality problem." But until you have worked at an organization that is big like Facebook please hold forth your tongues or fingers in this case. Startup principles don't apply nor academia. Facebook's "code problem" is what really does happen in the real world with such humongous business enterprises. Lot's of moving pieces in code, in people, in ideas and the amalgamation of these results in what most programmers will see as "code quality problem" yet the market sees as billions of dollars.
The thing about critique is that you don't need to have made an equivalent project/effort/artwork/whatever to be able to critique it with a valid objection.
You just need to be able to spot an actual issue.
Sure, some might think they've spotted an issue when there is none. Or not understand that the issue exists for a reason (e.g. engineering tradeoff).
But those are orthogonal to the subject.
The key is that critique can come from any source, and it doesn't need someone to have done something "equivalent" or to have specific credentials to be valid.
The latter can at best serve as a rough filter to throw out some noise. But they will throw a lot of valid critique as well, which can come from everybody, including a layman.
My problem with the article is that it's extremely hard for humans in general, and critics in particular, to accurately model the alternative. I think that's the heart of what the commenter is talking about.
Unless you've worked at Facebook's scale, it's really difficult to tell what happens. (I don't work anywhere near that scale, so maybe take my opinion with a grain of salt.) This critic is reading signals and attributing them to a failure on Facebook's part, but who knows if an alternate scenario (a) actually makes things better, or just results in different trade-offs; or (b) is even feasible for a company of Facebook's size to do. I have no idea. There are only a handful Facebook-sized enterprises that have ever existed.
The lack of a visible solution does not make all criticism less valid. Criticism can be an expression of flaws without including a drubbing for not doing better. It's often made public as combination of the two, but the later can be disqualified without impeaching the validity of the former.
Even if the criticized thing is the best possible expression of the goal(s) given all the other constraints, it is still right to accept and express that limitations exist. -- Pretending they don't is just an ugly attempt to prevent the critic from refining their criticism to include the goals and self-imposed constants they view as causing the flaw.
In short, he states that Facebook has a code quality problem, one which most of us would expect of an organization of that size, but is it really a problem? Would their bottom-line be better with higher-quality code that took longer (higher cost) to develop? Make that argument. Convince us why code quality is a problem and how improving it would make sense to all stakeholders (not just engineering). I think this message resonates with an audience of software developers (myself included), but it doesn't pay attention to all of the competing interests.
If all you've ever built was houses, it's hard to give too much credence to your critique of a skyscraper, especially if you aren't privy to the underlying geographical features like bedrock depth, wind velocity at altitude, etc.
This analogy isn't apt. We're talking iOS app development versus Facebook's iOS app development. This is a very easy to compare thing. Yes, with Facebook's scale they likely run into some interesting issues than many will never but that doesn't make it into something vastly different. It's still an iOS app that may have more optimizations than other apps.
It's like comparing a regular house being built and a house that has to support every type of person in existence. They're still a house.
I bet if facebook was able to ship an app that only came with the mostly used %20 and was able to download the 100kb of binary for each of the mini features inside their app on demand, it would be a far more scalable application. But they cant, because iOS stops them.
To put that another way: sometimes the problem isn't the problem. Sometimes the ungainliness of the tool or process used to solve the problem, is the problem. If you've got a 1000-ton hammer, you might (in theory) be able to hammer a nail, but you've got some other logistical challenges to solve first.
My experience with huge real-world code bases is that yes they do encode lots of important functinal knowledge about real-world requirements that a new programmer will not see. But it will also contain even more plain old stupidity.
The obvious conclusion is: Because they're so successful, they're right and XCode, Dalvik, Git et al are wrong, and their hacks are entirely justified.
The less obvious conclusion is: despite them being so successful, they have a code quality issue, and the tools are entirely justified in breaking under the load that's being put on them.
Arguably, the big problem here is that the obvious conclusion is wrong, and the less obvious conclusion is right. And, because the right conclusion is the less obvious one, there's plenty of value in advising the kind of onlooker that's likely to want to emulate facebook's success (read: the sort of startup that's precisely HN's target audience!) that they shouldn't accept FB's excuses at face value, and should think about avoiding these problems in the future.
That's not one conclusion, it's two.
Suppose for the sake of argument we grant the first part and say Facebook has a code quality issue and they should have less code. (I'm not familiar enough with Facebook to have an opinion on the matter, but I'm willing to postulate this for the sake of argument.)
That does not in any way imply the second conclusion! One of the most important differences between a good tool and a shoddy one is precisely that a shoddy tool can only withstand the load that should be put on it, whereas a good tool can go beyond that.
You don't want space-shuttle O-rings that fray under high tension; you want space-shuttle O-rings that fray under low tension, because they're never supposed to be under any tension and so incorrect installation that puts tension on them should result in them shredding apart before they ever get out of the factory.
To answer that, the fact that they managed to break not one but several tools is highly informative. I'm willing to accept that some tools might not work at scale. I'm less willing to accept that what basically amounts to the whole stack for mobile development is _that_ weak, not without very solid evidence.
Near as I can tell, there haven't been reports of this sort of issue with MS Office for either Android or iOS, or from other applications that should, by any reasonable metric, be more complex than facebook.
A fair question. The most reliable way to answer it is to see whether there are similar tools that hold up better under load. For example, are there rival version control systems that scale better than Git? Ditto for the other tools.
(Let's all watch out for the human tendency to interpret an affirmative answer as taking a side in e.g. a Git vs X competition. A more useful way to interpret it would be as a source of ideas on how to improve Git.)
Facebook popularized the idea of "move fast and break things." Move fast, by all means, and don't be paralyzed by fear of all change whatsoever, but I really didn't appreciate it when my classmates thought that by being willing to break things constantly in our group project they were showing us all their potential to be the next Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs. Or when some of those classmates were hired as my team mates and brought that crap into a customer-facing service. I interviewed at Facebook and was scared by the cowboy mentality I sensed in every room and with every interviewer. I'd like the glorification of that to be balanced by, "hey here's some concrete data demonstrating they have some real issues that could clearly be addressed better."
Fine, go ahead and break stuff, but be willing and able to actually FIX it afterwards. That part never seems to get picked up.
"We'll circle back and add tests later"
My deepity for the day...
Being able to build something equivalent is not a requirement for criticizing things.
In fact, some of the best and most valuable criticism often comes from people who have no idea about how the thing they are criticizing works.
Remember your words the next time you complain about the food in a restaurant.
Sorry but, in my opinion, this is dangerous thinking. Saying you shouldn't say anything unless you've done equivalent / better creates the implication that anyone who hasn't worked on a Facebook scale mobile app doesn't know what they're talking about or can't provide something to the conversation that is at least informational or useful.
Do you complain about politics? If so then I would expect you to have at least held office in the past otherwise you should hold your tongue.
Have you complained about a truck driver on the road? Well, have you driven a truck? If not you should not complain.
Anyone can share their opinion and regardless of where they have worked it may or may not be valuable. If you are judging value based on the market CAP of their LinkedIn profile then you are probably missing out on most good information out there.
Well I happen to (vaguely) know the author and have worked with him in the past and he has done a lot of great work, not all of it in the public domain though.
Comparing him with an organisation that employs 17k people is a little unfair but he comes out of it favourably IMHO!
Literally an ad hominem.
Poster questions author's qualifications to criticize Facebook. Poster's own blog post about software quality never hit the front page of HN.
To quoque, dude. Tu quoque.~
Is it bullet proof? Of course not. As an easy example, there are many that are more overweight than I am that know nutrition better than I do. That said, it is does seem somewhat logical to question health advice from clearly unhealthy people.
Using your easy example with OP's logic, a 100-pound overweight person trying to lose 100 pounds by throwing up and taking dangerous diet pills should also discount the advice of a physician who've never lost 100 pounds themselves or successfully helped a patient lose at least 100 pounds.
That is, again, it is not bullet proof. But, it is too often for someone to have experience that does not scale to the speed and size of facebook in this regard. Life is too easy to argue in the extremes of straw men. Wanting to know of experience that backs an argument is perfectly reasonable.
Facebook's "code problem" is what really does happen in the real world with such humongous business enterprises.
But does it have to be this way?
Nasa, budget is $19 billion. I can't find a public official record of their code size, but the IIS is approx 6 mil lines of code, and i don't think the other missions they did (all 33 unmanned space missions in total) are too far off, so lets give each an average of 5mil per mission. That's 165 million lines of code. And arguably, probably more difficult code than facebook's domain.
You might not think it, but you'd be wrong. Facebook was for several first years just a set of PHP crud pages and heaps of servers to run them well.
Since then they added their own compiler and such, but the core of what they do is serving web pages at scale.
All known problems, solved by tens of teams all over the world, even at larger scales (Google for one).
NASA's problem on the other hand is quite unique, any errors can cost lives, and their tasks frequently include totally novel solutions for totally novel problems related to space travel, guidance, simulations, materials science, and so on.
Not the same difficulty at all.
Personally, I think we've all got a piece of the elephant here. It is true that there are no known methodologies that could build Facebook at the speed it has been built without producing a globally-incoherent design. Anything that could produce a globally-coherent design would have slowed them down so much that they wouldn't have been such big winners in the first place. (So "globally incoherent" isn't much of a criticism here, really.)
On the other hand, there are options other than "a big set of PHP CRUD pages and heaps of servers" available to us now, too, and I expect those options to continue to advance in usability. Even the various projects that improve on PHP would bring more benefit if you could use them from day one instead of a retrofit.
The other social networks were open season. Facebook made some good design choices with the simple looking UI, and didn't offer the customisations MySpace had. But that's a design choice, not software engineering choice.
HN tends to be rather myopic in that programmers exist to program. Nope. Programmers exist to use a tool to solve a real world problem. The best way to do that is with the minimal amount of design and time required to accomplish the task at the desired level of reliability. Very few projects require anything resembling the "code quality" talked about on HN - in most cases I would say trying to enforce such principles generally result in worse outcomes and folks would have been better off spending 1/10th the money on a 16 year old off elance.com and simply fixed problems as they came up.
Typically the thing that is done the quickest wins, even if the implementation would make you cry. The fact is from a business standpoint - it truly rarely matters. Very little is as critical as people think.
I've noticed the industry becoming vastly disconnected with this fact recently.
Probably true, but it's also important that they did not lose because of the software. There are lot of great ideas that have gone in the drain because of sloppy software.
Twitter was crap at the start, most software in electronics was beyond unusable until recently (in some systems) etc.
You can of course lose because of sloppy software, but if your marketing is done well, I don't see why that would happen. There is an enormous overestimation how much people care about that kind of thing here on HN. From the first decade of the Windows versions to tons of Twitter outages after the launch to getting their computers hacked, passwords stolen, CCs stolen, privacy taken, slow as molasses systems, forced reboots, many crashes, bodged updates, forced updates, virus/malware scanners taking up 50%+ of your /still too expensive/ resources too much of the time, really bad iteration of the Facebook app at the moment (at least on Android), broken airplane booking forms, 404 support pages etc etc etc and yet no-one goes away because most people curse and move on to whatever. Unless your marketing is bad aka no-one uses it, it usually won't fail because of sloppy software.
Here's a great article on how NASA did development on the space shuttles code and the importance of process and quality:
Not an attack or support for your position, just thought it was an amusing choice of words.
In the sense that they gave us React and couple JS tools? What are their other "industry leading open source innovations"?
That's hardly a major "open source innovation". Heck, Google itself has produces 2-3 similar JS pieces (Angular, GWT, Closure compiler, Dart, etc).
OpenCompute (http://opencompute.org), Hack (http://hacklang.org), Phabricator (now spun off, still OSS, https://secure.phabricator.com), GraphQL (http://graphql.org)...none of these are JS tools, all have had major industry impact. GitHub's entire API, for example, is now GraphQL based. And that's just a small sampling.
I can't quite decide if you're being deliberately provocative or just misinformed.
Or maybe I genuinely disagree in your assessment that any of those technologies (apart from GraphQL, and that is still nowhere near major league) had any major "industry impact".
Appeal to authority usually takes the form of skipping making an actual argument for something and instead resting upon "X said so" and not explaining further. This is also not valid but is sometimes a shorthand for saying "X made argument Y," which can be valid if argument Y is valid (in which case the fact that X made the argument is purely incidental trivia).
Criticism of the government from someone who has experience running a large bureaucracy, negotiating, balancing groups with competing interests et cetera will rightly, other things equal, be taken more seriously than from someone whose experience of politics doesn't extend past ranting on Twitter.
Of course, other things may not be equal. If the latter person has sufficiently convincing arguments, can back them up with reference to sufficiently solid evidence, then these things may carry the point on their own merit.
You did not demonstrated enough of knowledge/expeciance for me to take your criticism seriously is valid answer.
If, on the other hand, you say "Al Gore said Global Warming is happening, Al Gore's argument is premise A and B, therefore C" that's not fallacious because your argument doesn't actually rest on the identity of the authority, but the argument they made.
But all of this is irrelevant because it's not an appeal to authority. It's an ad hominem. The author is being attacked for not-being-an-authority.
So, there's a huge lesson when an organization starts blaming every one else for scale problems; if everywhere you go there are issues, it's you.
Have you used it as such?
There's something called waste. The issue is that we don't know how much better the situation can be but we can recognize that it's pretty shitty at the moment. If they're making billions of dollars and they're a big company and have all these code quality issues, what hope does a small company have when trying to make quality software? How many more billions could have been made with less churn and less maintenance costs?
The author has picked some data points and written an article. You have said 'So?'.
Thus we can and should challenge writers and pundits, but probably from the perspective of first asking if they are making a logical argument or an emotional one instead of making it about their experience levels
Once you get to "average" quality, then business and product decisions become far more important than anything else.
I wish software engineering had the barriers and requirements of other engineering fields. I deal with industrial control systems, and we have the national electric code, UL, CE, NFPA 79, etc. With all that you can still make a machine that doesn't work well, but at least it's going to conform to certain conventions to make installation and maintenance easier, it will have a robust safety system, and it will be well-documented. Most fields of software engineering have no such minimum standards.
It does where I live you're required to be licensed if what you're doing passes these 3 criteria:
1. any act of planning, designing, composing, evaluating, advising, reporting, directing or supervising (or the managing of any such act)
2. that requires the application of engineering principles
3. concerns the safeguarding of life, health, property, economic interests, the public welfare or the environment, or the managing of any such act.
This includes software development. It is illegal to use, "engineer," in your professional title unless your accredited.
I think this is a good thing. Better software that works towards the public interest requires liability and professional accreditation. You can't take the, "move fast, break stuff" approach when your software is being used to monitor and control water filtration plants or food safety processes in a manufacturing facility. That works for the Facebook's of the world but they are by no means the be all and end all of professional software development.
Point being: This shit might not be rocket scientist hard, but it ain't easy either. And when you don't have the war chest of the likes of FB you're in for an ongoing and never ending (quality) battle.
if a company can make billions with a poor-quality codebase, clearly quality isn't a bottom-line concern.
what is a concern is shipping the damn product.
i get the impression that they use the struct keyword to avoid having to type public everywhere for instance...
This affects every organization and is something that should be actively fight against. Having accidental, unplanned, unaccounted costs should not be the default path.
To be fair, that's absolutely their call to make. Nothing of value is ever lost if your platform does not provide any non-ephemeral value.
Also, the building of infrastructure that takes on scale that's not yet been required is somewhat inefficient. But it does beg the question: If Facebook is limited by its infrastructure, what responsibilities do they have to build software that continues to scale for future organizations?
Their app also used to be unbearably sluggish despite not doing anything too fancy.
They didn't care since that API period propelled them to more dominance and growth for awhile. After they shut down the viral channels, the developer ecosystem died...but it had proven its usefulness.
The only issue now is developers don't trust them and they can't get enough developers to build atop them.
Ha. That is laughable. If it were so, then we would be able to automatically graft features from one product to another. I contend this is exactly how SoC are designed and there's no reason why we shouldn't copy the methods of the digital design community (proven to scale or you wouldn't be reading this).
Well, yeah, that's what the "break things" part means. The problem is when people/companies try to have it both ways. "Move fast and have high quality" isn't possible.
This seems like a great thing to me. i.e. The system is stable and the error budget is being used to facilitate change.