I just don't see where you are going with that text in the context of Creatine production. Vegetarians HAVE Creatine in their system, fully produced by the body. They just don't have the same amount as the meat-eaters, __because red meat contains Creatine itself, as a form of Creatine supplement__. Ergo, vegetarians are fully capable of producing the necessary amount of Creatine they need, by the ingestion of the required components. (otherwise there'd be no Creatine in their bodies.)
> Vegetarians HAVE Creatine in their system, fully produced by the body. They just don't have the same amount as the meat-eaters, __because red meat contains Creatine itself, as a form of Creatine supplement__. Ergo, vegetarians are fully capable of producing the necessary amount of Creatine they need, by the ingestion of the required components.
That's quite a logical leap there. I 'HAVE Money in my wallet', so ergo, I am 'fully capable of producing the necessary amount of Money I need'? (You should know I dream of living like a billionaire.)
Humans can produce vitamin D or omega-N oils on their own, yet, it's established fact that many humans are persistently deficient.
I consider it just a small leap in logic compared to your knee-jerk parallel regarding money in the wallet.
We know that increased oxygen in the blood speeds up healing of damaged tissue - this is why you get a tube up your nose blowing extra oxygen into your respiratory system when you come out of surgery. Does this by your logic mean that we're persistently oxygen deficient in our natural state, just because ADDING oxygen gives a higher effect?
What IS the nominal level of creatine in the body? Do you know? I don't. Pure creatine supplement from meat ingestion can so far only be proven to be an _added aid_, rather than going by the logic that vegetarians turn dumb when they stop eating red meat.
I don't understand how you can argue against the research that shows that vegetarians who supplement with creatine perform better than vegetarians who don't. Vegetarians do not produce "enough" creatine on their own. If you want to disprove that, find research that shows otherwise.
The wallet analogy wasn't that great. Allow me to try. I have all the exercise equipment needed to stay in great shape in my house, but that doesn't mean I'm in great shape.
But, I never argued that they benefit better with Creatine. You haven't read my posts. And just as vegetarians get a boost from it, so do meat-eaters, who also perform better when supplementing Creatine - ask 10 athletes (body builders in particular) and you will find at least 5 who uses it and can vouch for increased stamina from it. Does this, too, mean that they don't get enough? Surely it should, by the logic you've been using, and at this point you are contradicting yourself. From this we can simply draw the conclusion that everyone benefits from more of this in their systems, but it doesn't point to a deficiency of any kind, just as with my example of how artificially increased oxygen levels in the blood doesn't mean we don't get "enough" naturally.
The point I trying to make just flies by you; You don't KNOW what is enough, you don't KNOW what is too little. You can't say any of this based solely on the proof that _anyone_ performs BETTER when you ADD MORE. This is _not_ synonymous with a deficiency. And the research pointed to doesn't even bring up the specific vegetabilic diets held by the vegetarian subjects of the research, which is a very important detail missing for solidifying the "facts" the research is trying to bring forth. It's a very clear case of "correlation is not causation".
The definitions you're using for "deficiency", "enough" and "too little" are useless. If your body performs better with more of a substance that can be obtained through food or produced by your body, I'd call that a deficiency. If your body isn't performing as well as you'd like, and that can be improved by consuming more of a substance without harming your health, then you don't have enough of it.
This really shouldn't be controversial. I think vegetarianism is a good thing and it's something I'm attempting, but ignoring science because you don't like the negative connotation of "deficiency" doesn't make any sense.
If we define a "deficiency" as "expected level" of something, then we don't know if they had a deficiency. Regarding your definition, I don't have a testosterone deficiency, but I'd certainly perform better as an athlete if I took anabolic steroids.
Regarding creatine levels, all we know from the study is that after the supplementation, they had significantly more in their body. Maybe the results would be the same for omnivores - we don't know until someone runs the experiment. Even within this data, I'd like to see the vegans and vegetarians graphed separately.
My definition of "deficiency" was intended to consider only levels that can be obtained through food or created by your body from food. The definition still isn't completely right since given the same inputs, different people will produce a range of values. You get the idea, though.
Touchy: "rather than going by the logic that vegetarians turn dumb when they stop eating red meat". Do you deny that a vegetarian diet, without supplementation, often lacks in key nutrients?
Don't ever comment at reddit whatever you do you'll be apoplectic with rage in no time.
I say that vegetarians are deficient in creatine because this study showed that supplements increased their mental abilities. When they did the same study with meat-eaters, there was no such improvement, indicating that omnivores are not deficient in creatine.
Rawson ES, Lieberman HR, Walsh TM, Zuber SM, Harhart JM, Matthews TC (September 2008). "Creatine supplementation does not improve cognitive function in young adults". Physiology & Behavior 95 (1-2): 130–4. doi:10.1016/j.physbeh.2008.05.009. PMID 18579168.
I don't know why you're so defensive about this. It's well known that vegetarians are deficient in many nutrients. It's also well known that humans have an omnivorous past, so it should be obvious logically well.
Creatine supplements for meat-eaters increase physical stamina. It's one of the most sold products in "power sports" along with protein supplements. Ask the jocks to get the word from the horse's mouth, then tell me they too suffer a Creatine deficiency. :)
