On: Brexit Buoys California Independence Movement

[letitleak]

The biggest trick in US history was the South convincing the North that the reward for winning was keeping them. The North is stillpaying today.

[chasing → letitleak]

Are you trying to argue that the states formerly in the Confederacy haven't made huge contributions to the culture and economy of the United States?

Many, many good people in the South would beg to differ and probably find the notion that they're dragging down the rest of the nation offensive.

[Fej → chasing]

Many states in the South are dragging down the rest of the nation.

Sorry.

That creationism thing, that climate denial thing, and that extreme conservatism thing stunt progress in the rest of the country.

[chasing → Fej]

Stereotypes are fun. Stupid Southerners with their bibles and guns. See: That was fun. I'm glad we could share this moment.

Anyway, yeah, there's plenty of lunacy in the South. Which is something that could probably be said of any part of the world with ~100m people. And it contains some depressed and poverty-stricken areas which deserve help rather than derision. But I think it's lazy thinking to believe that they're "dragging down the rest of the nation."

Sorry.

It's cool, though. You'll one day meet a Southerner and realize that, for the most part, they're just like normal people!

[Fej → chasing]

I'm sorry, I don't think I was clear. For the record, I've met Southerners and they're all nice and reasonable people. (You know what they say about Southern hospitality.)

I was referring to each state as a whole, and especially those politicians at the top. My post did not indicate that, and I do apologize if I offended.

[chasing → Fej]

I'm not offended, I just don't think it's useful to think of even states as monolithic blocks, even if prominent politicians hailing from there are sacks of shit.

(Actually, I think it's useful for entertainment value and that's about it. Fuckin' Florida, amirite?)

I'm actually more annoyed by the us-versus-them-ism. "'Those People' are nutty and bad. Dragging 'Us People' down." It's dismissive.

And the United States is unlikely to break up any time soon -- and unlikely to start kicking out states with weak economies like Mississippi. So if you really think some things about those areas are, in fact, dragging down the country, maybe a helpful action would be to support policies that would help people in those areas. Or take direct action via an organization like Teach For America. A lot of the stereotypes you list stem from a mix of lack of education and general fear about getting by. Those things are correctable.

[ivraatiems → letitleak]

I'm not sure that's fair. The reason there was a Civil War at all was in large part that the North didn't think secession from the union was legal. They wanted the South to be part of the USA from the beginning, and I don't think ever regarded them as or recognized them as another nation.

And the way the South was treated during reconstruction doesn't suggest the South had any say on the matter in the end.

[letitleak → ivraatiems]

I'm not contesting any of those views, I am saying that the costs to the North were significant and the drain of resources caused by the poorer South continues to be significant.

Using the civil war to justify another military action against a portion of the country that simply votes out would be an example of learning nothing from the past.