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No, I'm "upset" because the rest of the article makes it clear that Feynman really did think that women were inherently useless as math -- and even "rational thought" in general:

>Those people who have for years been insisting (in the face of all obvious evidence to the contrary) that the male and female are equally capable of rational thought may have something.

This is a bit rich for my tastes (but it will no doubt go down very well on this forum). I just don't see why it would be someone's favorite quote, unless they liked making fun of women's intellectual abilities.




I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when it comes to math.

Why is it no woman has won the fields medal? Why do many talented women stop their academic career at the bachelor and masters level when it comes to mathematics?

I think you would of been able to say that sexism in academia was a reason in the past, but I just don't think that really flies anymore.

Is it possible the genuinely is a difference between mathematical ability between men and women or do people this this is purely cultural?


Careful, you'll get fired from Harvard for saying things like that.


>I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when it comes to math.

Well yeh, tons of people have studied it:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=women+male+math+differen...


edit:

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full

Two recent studies directly address the question of whether greater male variability in mathematics is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Machin and Pekkarinen (19) reported that the M:F VR in mathematics was significantly >1.00 at the P < 0.05 level among 15-year-old students in 34 of 40 countries participating in the 2003 PISA and among 13-year-old students in 33 of 50 countries participating in the 2003 Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS). However, these data also indicated that the math VR was significantly less than or insignificantly different from 1.00 for some of the countries that participated in these assessments (e.g., Table 2), a finding inconsistent with the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis.

...

Similarly, Penner's cross-nation analysis of the 1995 TIMSS data (20) showed that the proportion of girls scoring above the 95th percentile positively and significantly correlated with several measures of female equality and status, including equity in educational opportunities and representation in the labor force and political offices.

Best I could find in 5 minutes

Consequences in High School and College of Sex Differences in Mathematical Reasoning Ability: A Longitudinal Perspective Camilla Persson Benbow and Julian C. Stanley The Johns Hopkins University

Between 1972 and 1974 the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY) identified over 2,000 7th and 8th graders who scored as well as a national sample of 11th and 12th grade females on the College Board’s Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) Mathematics or Verbal tests. A substantial sex difference in mathematical reasoning ability was found (Benbow & Stanley, 1980b, 1981). The consequences and development of this sex difference over the following 5 years were investigated longitudinally. Over 91 percent (1,996 out of 2,188 SMPY students) participated. This study established that the sex difference persisted over several years and was related to subsequent sex differences in mathematics achievement. The sex difference in mathematics did not reflect differential mathematics course taking. The abilities of males developed more rapidly than those of females. Sex differences favoring males were found in participation in mathematics, performance on the SAT-M, and taking of and performance on mathematics achievement and Advanced Placement Program examinations. SMPY females received better grades in their mathematics courses than SMPY males did. Few significant sex differences were found in attitudes toward mathematics.

Here's a visualisation (I think) of the male/female ratios of various IQs you'd expect given the different variances http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-quot...


Well, I can do better than that in 5 minutes but that's because I have paid a lot of attention to this question.

I think the most conclusive evidence that M/F math gaps are cultural in origin lies in international studies, where the gap ranges from negligible in progressive countries (eg. Scandinavia) to massive in less equal societies (eg Turkey).

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-136-1-103.pdf

Generally the anglo-saxon socities (UK, USA, Australia) are "middling" in this.

Of course this only covers "normal" math abilities (ie the ability to understand school/college math). "Genius" level ability is a lot harder to quantify, partly because it is such small number statistics and there are many confounding social variables to do with access to and selection pressures of post-graduate education.


Wanted to do more than upvote this - after a quick read, the linked paper seems an unusually useful resource on this subject, and I certainly recommend others take a look. Thanks for the link!


Just curious, why do you believe Scandinavia is more equal than the US, UK or Australia?


Just curious, why do you believe Scandinavia is more equal than the US, UK or Australia?

Gender equality metrics, eg. see the World Economic Forum report, generated from "hard" indicators:

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2008.pdf

where the top 3 countries are Scandinavian (4 if you include Iceland). On the same list, the UK is 13th, Australia is 21st, and the USA is 27th.

This list is consistent with my own impressions. You will also note the reasonably high correlation with the math gap list I referenced upthread.


The "obvious evidence to the contrary" was the math gender gap, which was very real at the time. If you actually read the story, it's quite clear that Feynman is telling the story at his own expense (showing how wrong he had been about girls + math). There's no question he was sexist, but see _debug_ and blackguardx's tandem quote to see that he regarded them as equals mentally: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1197382


I did read the whole article, but did not get the impression that it was meant to be a joke at his expense. That's just not supported by the text. The most he's willing to say is that "if it is done in the right way, you may be able to get something out of it [the female mind]." Hardly a U-turn.

Also, the quote you referenced does absolutely nothing to show that RF regarded women as his mental equals. It just shows that he sometimes explained stuff to them -- not surprising, given that he presumably had some female students/colleagues.

In any case, whatever the merits of Feynman's position at the time, I'm bemused that anyone could find his views on this topic quoteworthy.


Although, in Feynman's defence, practically no-one that he met in his life was his intellectual equal, man or woman... I think it's just that he was more willing to actually say that for women, whereas he obviously felt a social need to keep that thought to himself when it concerned men.


How does that make Feynman look better?




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