Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

Go back and read your Roman history. The rest of the book's not all that great (too dense, no exposition), but the first chapter of A.H.M. Jones' biography Augustus lays out the conflicts of ~ 75 BCE to ~ 1 AD, particularly the conflict between the two principle political parties, the oligarchical optimates and the proletariate populares, as well as their respective political objectives. It's quite contemporary:

https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/NZiWbL8p...

<quote>

It was the agrarian problem that sparked off the violence that was ultimately to destroy the Republic. Tiberius Gracchus' bill, enacted in 133 B.C. for distributing the public land, after leaving a generous allowance to the occupiers, in small lots to poor citizens, excited such furious resistance among the senatorial landowners that a group of them lynchded Gracchus. This was the first in a series of violent clashes between two groups who called themselves the _optimates_ and the _populares_. The nucleus of the _optimates_ was the small clique of nobles (men whose fathers, grandfathers, or more remote ancesters had been consuls) who more or less monopolized the highest offices and dominated the Senate, but they had wide support among the propertied class, even, as Cicero says, propserous freedman; otherwise they could not have maintained their unbroken hold on the higher magistracies. They were conservatives, who regarded the rights of property as sacred, and therefore resisted bitterly any attempts to redistribute land or cancel debt. They were upholders of the constitution and of religion, which could be used to block any revolutionary legislation. Though at times they had to yield to popular pressure, they always remained the government.

The _populares_ were a much less well defined group. Their leaders were individual politicians or very small groups of politicians, who at intervals attempted to legislate in the interests of the people, by which they meant the common people. Most of them were also nobles, and their usual weapon was the tribunate of the plebs, which was the normal legislative office --- when the Senate wanted a law passed it normally requested the tribunes to put it to the plebeian assembly, and a tribune could pass a law without the assent of the Senate --- and possessed other formidable powers, such as an all embracing veto and the right of impeaching the most senior magistrates (after their year of office) before the people: it was also an office to which it was easy to be elected, since there were ten tribunes a year. The _populares_ developed a regular programme of legislation. First came the distribution of smallholdings to landless citizens. These were at first offered to all. Later, when Marius began to recruit landless peasants into the army, the distribution was limited to time-served soldiers, who obviously had a superior claim. The next point in the programme was the provision by the state of corn for the proletariat of Rome at a price that they could afford. From time to time the _populares_ were interested in the problem of debt, which frequently meant agricultural indebtedness. They were early successful in introducing the secret ballot into voting in the assembly, for legislation, elections and trials. They also stood up against the execution of Roman citizens without a lawful trial; the Senate was very prone to ignore this elementary right of the citizen in what it deemed to be political crises. Most _populares_ advocated the grant of citizenship to the Italian allies. They were generally interested in the welfare of the provincials; most of the extortion laws were promoted by _populares_. Finally, they substituted _equites_ (citizens owning 400,000 sesterces who were not senators) for senators as jurors in the criminal courts.

</quote>

(Quoted in greater length above.)




Sincerely whenever an history book names just one cause for the decline of the Roman empire, I toss it aside.

I get it, people want to have a nice clean explanation for the fall of the Roman empire, but mankind and societies don't really work that way, it was a number of big and small issues that made the Roman empire come to an end and every respectable historian during - at least - the last 2 decades as stopped trying to pinpoint just one motive.


"but mankind and societies don't really work that way"

Nothing works like that, but we are only human and we need heuristics and narratives that help us to deal with a very complex reality.

That shouldn't be a problem if we are aware or our limitations. No need to toss books aside because of that.

I find the grandparent comment both, very interesting and relevant to the discussion at hand.


And one has to wonder if the fate that befell the former Republic will also fell or cripple the current Republic.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: