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Ask HN: How do you fire a “B Player?”
24 points by throw-it-away24 on Nov 16, 2015 | hide | past | favorite | 39 comments
I've been struggling with this all week.

Long story short, we have someone on the team who is just OK. Not terrible, there's nothing specific I can point to that I can say, "This is awful," but the work they produce is just mediocre.

To be clear: They're a designer, and they're always asking me for specific critiques, which I try to give, but that can't be my job. It's pretty clear that it's just not good enough.

I know other designers we could hire who (I'm pretty sure) we could pay a lot less, would do a better job, and would need less hand-holding.

I've had to fire people before when it was not a good fir or they were obviously not skilled or talented enough, but this one is just... meh. It's not like he's a complete degenerate, but I think we need someone fantastic to get where we need to go.

This is someone I've known for a long time and I consider a friend, but I can't let the rest of the team/company suffer because I really like this guy personally.

How do you have that conversation?




> which I try to give, but that can't be my job

How many hours per week are you spending helping him? And how long have you been helping him?

It's pretty much a given to have to provide significant training and guidance if you want A player performance but don't want to pay for an A player.

> we could pay a lot less

Based on what evidence?

> would do a better job

Again, based on what evidence?

> but I think we need someone fantastic to get where we need to go.

And you expect to be able to just click your fingers and hire somebody fantastic for a much lower pay?

Face it: Your company stuffed up and hired a decent performer when you wanted a top performer. The correct thing to do is offer a decent severance package (at least 3 months pay if he has been with you for more than a few weeks), give him a great reference, and allow him to represent himself as still employed while he looks for another job.


> How many hours per week are you spending helping him? And how long have you been helping him?

Probably 1/4 to 1/2 of my working day every day. We're a small company, ~7 ppl, I'm the CEO. I'm not a great designer, but some of the stuff he/she sends back is just amateurish. It ends up mostly-amateurish-but-shippable if I spend forever with him on it, but other designers I've worked with in the past have delivered much higher quality stuff for much less, and with way less headache. I think it may just be a sheer talent thing at this point, and I don't know how to instill talent.

> based on what? People I've worked with in the past, including the person I'm going to hire to replace this person. I guess you'll just have to trust me on that though.

I recognize we hired a decent performer when we wanted a top performer. If you know a way to unilaterally avoid that I'm all ears. And yes, I am willing to pay for a top performer.

What I am not looking forward to now is actually firing this person.


For all employees, don't just hire people permanently, even if you or someone else thinks they're a great fit, "try before you buy". Definitely work with someone on a temporary contract basis, and renew it, before hiring, even a first employee, and then don't re-up a contract if they don't work out. If they need benefits, that's cool, you probably should be taking care of people.

Next time, check out their portfolio at the phone-screen step, because each designer's tastes and abilities vary widely from individual to individual. Run it by enough people on the "search commit" (which might be just be founders and another couple folks) for input, because you need buy-in to dispel any appearance of 'PHB CEO is arbitrarily hiring people without due-diligencing them and foisting them on us'.

Because each hard fire makes the the hiring manager and other interviewers look bad, and it hurts the candidate... trial run (without abusing that indefinitely) and be nice & professional should be the HR-focused mindset.

If you absolutely have to fire someone, do it now, do it yourself... It's a bandaid that's gotta come off, because putting it off just wastes your time and theirs, when they can be elsewhere possibly improving and someone else with a better fit could get going sooner. Be direct, honest and talk about next steps. Give feedback if they can take it and possibly help them if it, as long as doesn't put you into any HR/legal hot-water. Perhaps it's "We've discussed it and determined we have an irreconcilable mismatch in terms of design quality and taste. We're bummed that we're gonna have to let you go."

Also, have someone else impartial (before you get an HR manager) do an exit interview to see if they're going to bad mouth you, if they have useful feedback or if they're anything your shop can do to help them transition elsewhere.


> Definitely work with someone on a temporary contract basis, and renew it, before hiring

If you do this make sure you pay contract rates for the contract period or good people (at least in the dev world) will avoid you like the plague.

E.g. My contract rate is $120/hr for contracts of 3 months or less whereas my full time salary is ~$120k/year. If you try and offer me $60/hr (120k / 52 / 40) I'm not even going to look at your job.


> Because each hard fire makes the the hiring manager and other interviewers look bad

Spot on. It can harm your reputation to fire a solid B. Make it rare.


Addendum: I assume repeated feedback was given several times, not just expecting mind-reading. Document each instance of HR issues/feedback in your own notes in case they try to make a legal claim in the future.


In terms of emotions - isn't it the same whether you do not prolong a contract job vs fire the permanent hire? The difference seems to be just a paperwork...


3 months severance and letting them resign with dignity generally eases the transition.


> What I am not looking forward to now is actually firing this person

So give him a fair severance and get it over with quickly. It's the best you can do. Chalk it up as a learning experience and a good reason to hold onto top performers :)


The irony here is that you come across as a "B Player" CEO wanting to fire a "B Player" designer. Just sit him/her down, tell him/her it's not working out and leave it at that. You seem to be romanticizing this by framing it as a conversation when your desired outcome is to let the person go. Just let them go. If you're worried about the friendship, don't hire your friends.


Holy shit what a great comment. I was thinking about how to convey my initial thoughts on the OP, but jesus, way to nail it on the head. Zero sarcasm here. "B player" sounds like those job posts with "looking for JS ninja".


Yeah, I probably am a "B Player" CEO. I'm working on it.

To be clear, I know I will be letting this person go, I just want to know what the best way to do it is.


2 potential options:

1: Go for a walk. A long one. Near the beginning drop the news on him or her (I'll go with her for this) that you have decided to end her employment. Identify three things that she does well, and three issues that you saw that were not resolvable. Work with her to help figure out the next step, and do what yo can to get her a good landing somewhere else. Accept responsibility for not being able to give the feedback that she requires, and talk about how, at this stage, you need someone who is more able to deliver concepts and finished product that is higher quality. The company cannot afford her at this stage.

2: Do the above but over a coffee nearby the office. Easier to stop the conversation early.

3: Have a performance review, and have a similar conversation, but work out how yo hand she are going to set targets for turnaround, get her the required help (external peers etc) to assist her and agree on a go/no-go decision date. As others have said it's better to turn things around than start again.

Overall I've very seldom seen a decision to ask someone to leave that has not worked out well for both parties. Be brave, be honest, keep your integrity and let the other person keep their respect.


You should first and foremost consult a lawyer specializing in labor law in your jurisdiction, firing people depending on your location can be easy or nigh-on impossible.

That said, I'd be very straight with this person, explain that you no longer wish to continue with them. If their contract will lapse within the next 6 months or so I wouldn't do anything other than maybe just buying out their contract for a lump sum. Otherwise just wait it out and hire your new guy/gal when you can afford it.

I'm not sure I like the 'we could pay a lot less' bit since that seems to indicate your motive is more economical than tied to this persons performance.


Legally it won't be a problem.

The cost isn't a factor (I mean maybe it is subconsciously), I just added that to say that we can get better talent for less - we're not just getting subpar talent because we're not paying enough. I really just want the best person.


Ok, clear. Thank you for the clarification.


How long has he been in the team? If he's been with you longer than six months then I would offer a nice severance package.

Just tell him the truth, it's not that his work is terrible, but you need amazing. Let him know he'll have a great reference if needed and you're still his friend.


> How do you have that conversation?

This is NOT the time for a conversation. Deliver the news in a professional, respectful, and buttoned-up manner. If you take more than 5-7 minutes, things will go badly.

If he pleads why me?!-- Tell him, to call you in 9 months time and you'll talk it through. But you can not discuss it now.

Time will take the sting, hurt, and anger out of the decision. It may also give you the clarity and perspective that this was unquestionably the right move for the business.

When (if) he calls for that follow-up conversation. Use that occasion to repair & rebuild your friendship. It can be done.


It shouldn't come as a surprise to them if you've been doing your job. You've worked with them for months (I assume some significant length of time anyway), you've presumably told them specific steps they need to take to improve their skill level, (not just nickle and dimming specific things that you happen not to like which they may or may not learn from,) which they haven't followed up on, and warned them that they need to do those things or they're going to get fired.

"Bob, we've talked about this, I told you months ago that there'd be consequences if you didn't do X Y and Z. That hasn't happened so we're letting you go. We've enjoyed working with you and good luck with your next job."

If you haven't worked with them like that, sure, that's a difficult discussion to have without feeling like an ass. You've still got to tell it to them straight, pussy-footing around won't help anything.

"Bob, this isn't working out. So, we're letting you go."

If it seems upsetting, there's not a way that I know of to sugar-coat not having worked with someone - that seems to tend to make it worse.


Just a point on the creative nature of the role for your future hiring...

Hiring top creative talent is massively difficult. A lot of that challenge stems from how hard it is to properly convey what you are looking for in their work. Often times they either have what it takes or they don't, and to some extent, it is talent that can't be taught no matter how much time you invest.

Starting with contract work is probably the best bet if you are still zeroing in on what you need. But finding companies that do what you like and poaching their designers is another approach.

Without knowing the kind of feedback you've provided to your current designer, I think the other thing to look at is whether they are getting the feedback they need from you despite the time you've spent giving it. If you are unclear in your feedback, or are communicating it in a way that isn't super actionable to a designer, it can end up with both parties being extremely frustrated with no way forward.

Others here have given great advice on how to let them go, so best of luck with resolving this in a clean way.


I don't think in your case it would be a lie to say "It's not a good fit." Design is a pretty subjective area so it's likely the case someone else will find his work to be higher quality than you do. Maybe he's asking you for critiques because he can tell you aren't digging what he's producing, or maybe the vibe between you is no good and you're perceiving that as mediocre work. In any event, best to get it over with; you'll both be better off without one another it seems.


He's been with us for long enough we (meaning I) should have recognized that earlier, so part of the problem was my fault - poor management.

This just really sucks. It's like if I do poorly other people lose.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to this because I've been fired before and it really sucked, but it was devastating. I don't want him to have the same experience I did, because he doesn't deserve it.


If you feel like taking the responsibility, financially, then give him a fair severance such that he can look for something new without ruining his situation.


> It's like if I do poorly other people lose.

I think that's always true of management.


The sooner the better. The added bonus is you'll get more quality work out of your engineers for the next month or so until they fall into their "tests are running" routine again.


A designer must be good at UX (processes) and UI (pure design).

You make them sound like they're mediocre at UI. What's their level at UX?

I know I'm mediocre at producing (vs evaluating) UI, but I also know I am great at producing UX.

Maybe they just ain't the right professional for your startup right now.

Or maybe they should focus on UX, and you should hire someone else for UI.

Again, maybe they can improve on UI if properly trained. As in a professional training course, more than as in a colleague training them on the job.


You could consider investing in some training for the employee. You could have another senior designer offer the critiques and feedback you feel are eating into your time.


This is an option for large firms with resources to throw around, but at a startup, everyone needs to pull their own weight. There are already enough things eating into your resources -- don't need to pay a second designer to train your first designer.


> I know other designers we could hire who (I'm pretty sure) we could pay a lot less, would do a better job

You want an "A" you can pay for less than a "B"?


We're paying too much for a "B"


Whatever you do, don't drag it out. If you're not happy with their performance, let them go.

For future candidates, pay them to come in and do a short project. That way you have a better chance of getting the right candidate, without committing yourself to full employment prematurely.

If you're not happy with their performance, surely this isn't unknown to the rest of the company. It's not good for morale (theirs or yours) to keep this person on.

EDITED: clarity


If your business can afford this, talk and give him/her 1-3 months to reach the level you need, sort of a probation. It doesn't need to be public and shame, just make your case clearly and frankly, face to face. If talk derails, offer severance for resignation. Worst case, cut it short, lose a friend and fire, but from your op I don't think it will end this way.


How much time do you actually spend with this guy? Measure it. Don't guess, or you'll be wrong. Verify that you can get cheaper or better work elsewhere BEFORE you let this guy go.

Ultimately you need to know if moving onto better talent is a good ROI. Training is always an option, no-one is born great, and there are costs associated with changing staff.


If you are doing performance counseling with employees generally, this should be a natural outgrowth of that, and specifically of the counseling done with this employee aimed at understanding and resolving the performance deficit vs. expectations so that it didn't reach the level of requiring termination.


How do you counsel a designer into better design?

I realize it's not all art/talent, but do you seriously think he can just buckle down and become a better designer?

Also, OP says he's spending a minimum of 2 hours per day with this guy.


I talk with him all the time about where he stands. That still doesn't make it easy.


Just be honest and get it done. Tell them that you expect better performance from a designer that works for you. Then let them go. Consult with HR/lawyers as needed. Whether someone is close but not quite at the bar, or far from the bar, your conversation is pretty similar.


Ask Netflix managers how they went through the process of letting a "B Player" go?


I've been in this situation a few times in the last several years, where I have had a good, but not good-enough player, and I have tried a new approach to the dismissal each time. What follows is what I should have done in every instance.

First, go with your gut and end it ASAP, do not try to mentor, do not try to grow them, just end it and move on. I have spent too much time, effort, and money trying to bring the performance of B-players up to A-player status. If someone has hustle, then you can point out shortcomings and they will stay up all night making it perfect. That's an A-player in the rough; don't cut those players. If you point out shortcomings and they continue to deliver mediocrity over and over, cut them and move on.

Recognize who is ambitious and who is not, and place people in appropriate roles. There's nothing wrong with people who lack ambition, but they can't hold critical roles in high-performing teams, they drag the ambitious, hard-working, self-motivated A-players down.

I agree with many other commenters that the right thing to do is to be honest that it's not going to work out, and offer a severance package. I disagree with some severance numbers that have been suggested... the standard number is a week of severance for each year of service - that's what I go with.

However, if the person made significant concessions to work with you, for example, if they moved their family cross-country to take the job with you, then more severance is appropriate. "Make them whole".

As for delivering the message, my advice is the Band-Aid approach, make it succinct, do it in a place where their co-workers can't overhear, and plan their exit in a way that they don't run into other co-workers. You don't want the person to have to answer "how's it going" as they pack up their desk. I disagree with the long heart-to-heart conversation approach. After just getting canned is not the right time for mentoring. They’ll find support elsewhere, you trying to ease their pain makes it worse. If you like the person and would like to help them, tell them that, but tell them to catch up with you later on and say you’re happy to talk when they’re in a position to. If they want to talk right away, by all means do, but don’t force it on them.

I have never fired someone too soon. In retrospect, I always should have acted faster. The fact that you’re on here asking for advice means that it’s time to act.

Finally, I realize that some of the above may sound ruthless, so let me make three comments on philosophy and _why_ being direct and decisive is the best course of action:

1) It is demoralizing to the rest of the team to see someone reaping the same benefits they get for doing better work. One bad player will poison an entire team. Even nice, pleasant, hard-working people who require too much care and feeding will sap energy from the team.

2) It is not fair to the individual to leave them in a position where they are not succeeding. Leaving someone in a position where they are not cutting it is cruel – s/he will find a better fit elsewhere.

3) In a start-up environment, you simply cannot afford a B-player in any key role. Everyone has to put up at least their own weight, and a single person not doing that reduces your odds of success. A lot has been written on this, so I won’t go on – but one wrong hire can destroy a small company.




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