> Sincere question, but when did that happen? I suspect that you're conflating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu with MMA. The art of jiu-jitsu seems to me to be as passive as it ever has been. There've always been choke holds, and armbars, and while the techniques evolve over time, none of that has changed in BJJ.
Fair question, and I'll readily admit I have limited experience with BJJ. However, at my first judo dojo, we shared space with a BJJ club, and I watched them perform locks on joints that are verboten in judo as practiced today--the reason being safety. Funny enough, aikido even has joint locks (wrist) that aren't done in competition judo due to the potential for injury when applied during shiai. As Wikipedia describes it, however, the presence of some of these techniques is due to BJJ forking early from Kodokan judo. So, I have my chronology a bit wrong. BJJ didn't (in this traditional form) re-brutalize judo; it forked from an earlier more brutal form of judo, and judo evolved toward less injury.
In terms of small joint manipulation, I don't know about BJJ. However, I studied for a while in Danzan Ryu jujitsu in a blessedly not-testosterone-fueled environment. And that style very definitely had finger and toe locks. They were often combined with pins and were left in place as the final application of submission hold on someone you intended to extricate yourself from--mainly to make sure they weren't going to get up as you were trying to put distance between yourself. That escape aspect might have been my instructor's own flourish from aikido / Daito ryu training though.
Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo.
While BJJ does practice takedowns, it is not the primary focus of the sport, where Judo always starts standing.
You rarely, if ever, get injured from a joint lock, even when rolling (sparring) or competing in a tournament in BJJ.
Wrist locks and heel hooks are mentioned and practiced early on in BJJ, but they are not permitted as techniques to use on or by white belts while rolling. It is certainly a riskier submission, as you don't tend to feel it before it's too late, but I have never seen someone injured by a joint lock in years of training when it wasn't admittedly their fault (ie: they didn't tap when they should have).
But I have seen quite a few shoulder injuries from takedowns, in both Judo and BJJ. People need to learn how to fall properly, but accidents do happen.
> Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo.
I'd actually be curious to know what the stats on that are. I certainly don't think either of our anecdata are sufficient to answer the question.
However, as noted in the wikipedia article I linked earlier, the judo's banning of various joint locks that are not banned in BJJ was done from a safety motivation. In principle, I'm open to the idea that these modifications of judo were not effective in their intended purpose to reduce injury. However, given some knowledge of (non-arm) joint locking techniques, an observed reduction in injury seems highly plausible.
In short, I'm open to the possibility that the locks in BJJ don't constitute a significant additional risk above and beyond judo. However, judo's ban on BJJ-sanctioned locks does not strike me as particularly ill conceived.
Stats would be interesting. I rarely see injuries in BJJ, whether that's at the gym or at a tournament. Even then, it's most commonly due to an overextended armbar and someone not tapping soon enough.
You also don't spend a lot of time in Judo attempting to submit or defending a submission. There's a lot of talk that Judo's bans have really watered the sport down, including things as fundamental as what sleeve grips are allowed, such as being unable to break an opponent's grip with two hands. It's becoming a point-fighting martial art in competition.
Heel hooks are dangerous because they don't hurt and someone untrained in them (and particularly hard headed) may not tap in time.
You can feel most joint locks, such as knee bars and arm bars, so it's safe to know when it's time to tap.
Wrist locks aren't very common in BJJ. Aikido does far more wrist locks. We don't train them in BJJ very often because they aren't very effective and are easy to get out of.
Most blood chokes, including arm and leg triangles, are easy to tap to and low risk. Sometimes someone may put on a choke that is a trachea choke, but the worst you have there is a sore throat. Neck cranks are also no-no's for lower belts.
Shoulders are, by far, the most common place of injury.
The most dangerous subs are usually shoulder locks, such as Americana and Kimura, as people have vastly different flexibility. And, as I mentioned earlier, getting injured from takedowns.
> There's a lot of talk that Judo's bans have really watered the sport down, including things as fundamental as what sleeve grips are allowed, such as being unable to break an opponent's grip with two hands. It's becoming a point-fighting martial art in competition.
That's fair. To be honest, the competition aspects of judo are what ultimately made me give it up. I respect that Jigoro Kano was trying to find a place in the world for these techniques, and that sport was one way to carve that space out, however I'm not in martial arts for competition.
Truth be told, I'm not really in martial arts for self defense either. The reality is, that there will always be someone with the capacity to bring greater violence to a situation than I can defend against. Even if I'm really great, there are always knives, guns, car bombs, and nukes that I'm probably not going to walk away unscathed from.
On a related tangent, my Danzan Ryu sensei had a self-defense illustration that has stuck with me. Just about the time we felt pretty good with our tanto (wooden knife) takeaways, she'd have us practice our knife fighting with sharpie markers. Lesson learned: even if you're really good, you're going to get cut, and it's probably not going to be trivial injury. If someone flashes me a knife and asks for my wallet, my wallet is theirs. The only time I would consider a knife / gun takeaway would be if it was very clear that the person wielding said weapon was utterly intent on using it. I suppose if some random person were to try and beat me up on the street, my martial training would be somewhat useful in avoiding injury, but I'm most definitely not training for this scenario.
These days I train aikido, but do so for the fitness, the mental challenge, and the camaraderie of the dojo. Unlike judo or BJJ, I can imagine myself training into later life. That said, my first judo sensei was an old hippy who trained for many years in Korea and Japan and claims he never suffered anything worse than a sprained toe. So, maybe I'm just a nancy--a label I'm very happy to wear ;-)
> You can feel most joint locks, such as knee bars and arm bars, so it's safe to know when it's time to tap.
Arm bars, definitely. However, I've been told there is a significant percentage of the population that actually cannot properly feel a knee bar before the point of damage. When we trained them in DZR, we applied them very carefully, especially with people experiencing them the first time, in order to make sure we were dealing with someone who properly felt pain in advance of damage.
> Aikido does far more wrist locks. We don't train them in BJJ very often because they aren't very effective and are easy to get out of.
In terms of ground fighting, I'd reckon that's definitely true. Aikido doesn't do much of that, and so wrist bars are done more dynamically. My judo intuition about wrist bars makes me a very cautious aikidoka on these things. On the other hand, the vaulting throws from kote gaeshi sure are purdy! Like most things with aikido, I suspect it becomes reasonably "effective" after a decade or two of training.
> Most blood chokes, including arm and leg triangles, are easy to tap to and low risk. Sometimes someone may put on a choke that is a trachea choke, but the worst you have there is a sore throat. Neck cranks are also no-no's for lower belts.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Same as judo. Even a blood choke that results in unconsciousness isn't crazy dangerous if the person isn't also falling. Blood chokes shut the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain, and restore it instantly, so the risk of brain damage is low compared to wind chokes that deoxygenate the blood. There are similar rank restrictions in judo competition for chokes (and arm bars).
> These days I train aikido, but do so for the fitness, the mental challenge, and the camaraderie of the dojo. Unlike judo or BJJ, I can imagine myself training into later life.
These are the same reasons I train BJJ. There is nothing quite like rolling in terms of exercise. I also train with a lot of older guys (into their 60's, some 70's) who are very healthy and continue to train, drill and even roll lightly.
The thing with most martial arts is that you take out what you put in. If you don't want to compete, you certainly don't have to. I do tournaments, but I do it because I think it's fun--not because I plan on being a world level competitor.
There really is nothing like being able to put what you've learned to the test. That's what I have found BJJ offers me that no other martial art has--an outlet to really test what I am doing without no real risk of being hurt.
You can't spar with full force in Muay Thai or Judo. But you can roll and sweat and lose and walk away better than you arrived in BJJ. And it's completely optional.
Fair question, and I'll readily admit I have limited experience with BJJ. However, at my first judo dojo, we shared space with a BJJ club, and I watched them perform locks on joints that are verboten in judo as practiced today--the reason being safety. Funny enough, aikido even has joint locks (wrist) that aren't done in competition judo due to the potential for injury when applied during shiai. As Wikipedia describes it, however, the presence of some of these techniques is due to BJJ forking early from Kodokan judo. So, I have my chronology a bit wrong. BJJ didn't (in this traditional form) re-brutalize judo; it forked from an earlier more brutal form of judo, and judo evolved toward less injury.
In terms of small joint manipulation, I don't know about BJJ. However, I studied for a while in Danzan Ryu jujitsu in a blessedly not-testosterone-fueled environment. And that style very definitely had finger and toe locks. They were often combined with pins and were left in place as the final application of submission hold on someone you intended to extricate yourself from--mainly to make sure they weren't going to get up as you were trying to put distance between yourself. That escape aspect might have been my instructor's own flourish from aikido / Daito ryu training though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu#Divergen...