Ask HN: How do I develop aggressiveness?

[throwmeaway09]

I'm 41 years old and I find I'm not aggressive enough, neither at work nor (probably) in personal life. It was something my boxing coach (various years ago) told me quite often.

I'm not passive or shy; I speak up, I tell people (and managers, and girlfriends) uncomfortable truths, I'm usually confident and (quite) assertive, but I'm usually too calm and understanding when things heat up in a discussion. It's totally OK for me to give up and think something like "ok, that person is having a bad day, I shouldn't fight fire with gasoline".

Now I feel that's a problem; because, very often, those discussions are those when you "win" an argument (especially in the eyes of colleagues or managers) or lose it.

When I approach again people that treated me harshly, they usually say "I thought that was already settled, wasn't it?" or something like that. I work as a software engineer, and I think this is preventing to step up in my career, despite the fact that most colleagues regard me as a really authoritative (and not authoritarian!) source and respect me a lot.

I know that some of you will tell me "find a better company". But I've changed some jobs already in my life, and ultimately some things don't change - I don't work in an horrible politics-only corporation - and I think it's high time to step up to what the game is.

Any kind of recommendation? Books, trainings, professionals that can help me?

[htanirs]

I think you might want to look at assertiveness rather than aggressiveness. Being calm when things go bad is an amazing trait to have. Many get carried away and being aggressive does not help. It seems to win an argument but that's about it. Hollow points. Whenever I have dealt aggressiveness with aggressiveness, I felt bad later.

Just like you speak up uncomfortable truths in normal situations, being assertive during tough situations helps. Then the assertive person becomes the voice of reason, instead of raising the voice, they are calm, empathise and talk objectively. The argument may be lost if the other person is unreasonable. But people will know whom to support. Not easy to start with but over time it becomes the default state.

We have enough aggressive people already :).

[fargle]

You don't need aggressiveness. You're already passive-aggressive, which is not any better than aggressive-aggressive. The answer is not to become a bigger bully to get your way more often.

You need to learn how to argue persuasively. You also need to be right, it's not enough to have strong convictions, it's much easier to convince people and build consensus when you are (more) right or have a better answer.

Or if you find out you are wrong, maybe you adopt the other person's perspective, not sulk away feeling put down. Either way, "winning" an argument means everybody wins, not just you got your way.

Believe me, unless you work for and with only idiot politicians, people notice and don't care for obnoxious loudmouths. If they're always winning when you think they are wrong, you either do in fact work in a horrible political organization, or you are just wrong (AND probably work in a horrible political organization).

[olingern]

First, I would say that behavior modification is long, hard process. It's not something that reading a book can fix overnight.

Second, just reading your post and the tone in it, I would say that it's not you but the narrative that you tell yourself. Maybe your co-workers didn't interpret the conversation as "harsh" at all and maybe they just thought that everyone had closure. It's important to consider maybe there's no ill intent or negativity behind their actions

Lastly, I have the exact opposite of your problem and I have to work to hold my tongue. In some cases, people respected me and in others people would "work around me" so that my input wasn't needed or blunted. The grass is definitely not greener on this side. I would say moderation is key and choosing your battles wisely is important.

Also, I would recommend seeking out a therapist if you feel like this is a pattern you see over and over. It could be that this doesn't originate within the workplace, but somewhere else in life.

For what it's worth, I've watched some of the least aggressive/assertive people be the most effective communicators. People rally around them because of how they can trust them and the clarity they can bring to a situation. I believe effective communication and fostering relationships are much more valuable assets than being assertive or aggressive.

[trilinearnz]

Crucial Conversations - https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-...

Crucial Accountability - https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Accountability-Resolving-Expe...

Radical Candor - https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kim-Scott/dp/B01KTIEFE...

Boundaries - https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Cont...

[trilinearnz → trilinearnz]

HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict - https://www.amazon.com/HBR-Guide-Dealing-Conflict/dp/1633692...

[truth_be_told]

In order to be aggressive, you should train yourself to not be afraid of any possible consequences and sacrifices. Thats it!.

Most of the time, our imagined dragons/troubles never come to pass. People imagine all sorts of dire consequences and therefore do not act aggressively when required. You need to learn to push boundaries, keep your stress under control and always remember that the "other party" is as afraid of consequences as you are. The trick is to keep the pressure on until the other side "blinks". Watch any Nature conflict documentaries (eg. Lion documentaries where pride takeover often happens) and the principle should be clear.

Brinkmanship is the name of the game.

A study of Martial Arts texts will help in building up the necessary principles/techniques and "mental fortitude". A Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi is a good starting point.

[muzani]

I'd recommend the book 33 Strategies of War, by Robert Greene.

I think it does what you're trying to accomplish - winning conflicts. The book's philosophy is to be like Athena, not Ares. You don't want bloodlust, but you do want to be just aggressive enough to win conflicts, and yet not put others off. The solution to many conflicts is not just confrontation, but things like alliances and other unconventional warfare. Sometimes you want to win wars without firing a shot. You have boxing training, and learning to be patient while being punched in the face lends you to more options.

The first chapter/strategy is to Declare War. It's good to let go of grudges. But sometimes, something is just getting in the way, slowly chipping away at you. You have to commit to a war until you either win or lose. You shouldn't just try to win a single battle, but rather win or lose several battles in a sequence where you wouldn't have to fight any more battles. Sometimes you just want to establish yourself as a porcupine and discourage them from bullying you.

On a slightly different path is The 50th Law, also by Robert Greene, which is an annotated biography of 50 Cent, and how he built a persona to survive in a violent world.

There's training that could help you too. A lot of leadership/teaching training removes fear of embarrassment, though they're usually not cheap. You'd have to find a very outspoken trainer, someone who resembles Tony Robbins, not your typical consultant in a suit.

[wozmirek]

Hey - I also do boxing! What helped me way more though, was practising kendo. On that later. [1]

Find a psychotherapist. Therapy will allow you to unlock the flow of your emotions and deal with anything better. You can also treat it as a kind of work coaching. I went through psychodynamic and gestalt therapy and I've managed to suggest therapy to several of my friends. I'll even go as far as to offer to lend people money so that they go to therapy. Sometimes half-jokingly I call it the "gym for the soul/mind", since it's best if you go there if you're feeling well and it makes your "body" (mind/soul) better prepared to handle things now and in the future. Think how people who lift heal faster after accidents.

DM me if you want to chat about therapy or kendo!

[1]: Kendo is Japanese swordsmanship and it focuses on the spirit more than the body. You must shout during Kendo. You must be aggressive. You have to forgo your "safety" for the sake of "killing" your opponent. "" because kendo is about emulating fighting with a real katana :)

[feydaykyn]

I would focus on the fact that people do not seem to understand that you're only pausing the discussion.

I'm not aggressive myself either, and when the other person is not behaving correctly I make it clear: "when you are abusing me I do not want to continue this conversation. I need you to be respectful / control your emotions /etc. Let's stop here for now and we'll resume it when you've cooled down". Conversely, I've also stopped conversations because I wasn't in control of my emotions and needed some time off.

If some of your co-workers keep forgetting you paused the discussion, maybe follow up with a short and to the point email ?

What helped me tremendously is to work on "non violent communication", the concepts helped me express what I feel/need without abusing the others, which is one of my core tenants.

In any case, I also strongly advise you a therapy, for instance maybe your "abuse detector" is really sensible and you need to calibrate it (I've done that for anger and I'm stressed a lot less).

You can also speak with your co-workers : were they really angry ? Did their arguments was really about what was discussed? Maybe this is just their normal way of communicating and there's not so much heat as you felt.

Finally, are you sure you're expected to win more arguments to be promoted? Do you a clear list of what you need to achieve from your manager point of view ?

[Jugurtha]

>Now I feel that's a problem; because, very often, those discussions are those when you "win" an argument (especially in the eyes of colleagues or managers) or lose it.

I think you are way ahead because you're coming from an empathy and a desire to understand other people's positions as far as I can tell, which is crucial in advising people.

Becoming more aggressive is one implementation you thought of. There are other implementations such as becoming better at making convincing points.

The point of the debates you have at work is the pursuit of a useful truth in a given time frame and a course of action that will lead the organization in the right direction.

The problem when your convincing skills improve becomes that you'd be able to argue one position or the other and still be able to convince people, during the same debate. That spot is harder since you know your rudder is huge and you must be _very_ careful and you damn better be right.

Bullying in conversations, monopolizing speaking time, interrupting, and trying to win by raising one's voice because their points don't stand on their own is no way to go in my opinion.

[emiliobumachar]

> When I approach again people that treated me harshly, they usually say "I thought that was already settled, wasn't it?" or something like that.

Tangential, but that can and often should be answered with a "No".

[bobbybidon]

Lack of emotion is usually a sign of thoughtful and fair decisions. Although in certain circumstances, i.e. work in general, it's perceived as weakness. If there's one thing I learned from work is: it's not the best idea who wins, it's the guy who fights the hardest (not the most stubborn, just the most disagreeable). Choose your battle and the most important one... put emotion behind it.

[mikekchar]

I've done quite a lot of martial arts and fought quite a bit. I don't like it, but I wanted to learn about it. There is something important to understand about fighting (which I assume you already know): hardly anybody wins a fight without getting hit at least once. Fighting is as much about getting hit as it is about hitting. So if you want to fight, you either need to want to hit someone so badly that you don't care about being hit, or you need to be the kind of person who kind of likes being hit.

Most aggressive people I know are aggressive because it suits them. They have very high stress tolerances. If you get in a conversation with them, they will simply turn up the stress levels until everybody else drops out. Then they win. Sun Tsu said, never stand on dying ground. What that means is that if you are losing hit points faster than your opponent, all they have to do is to stand there until you die. You have already lost.

Asking your boxing instructor for advice is not necessarily the best place to go. Every person has strengths and weaknesses. A boxer needs to be able to stand in a place where they can't run away. Then they fight another person. The only way to win is to make sure that the other person is losing hit points faster than you are. You must be aggressive.

A ninja, on the other hand will simply hide outside your window until you are asleep and then kill you with a poison blow dart (totally made that up, BTW -- I don't think ninjas actually did that, but you get the point). If it doesn't look like it will work out, they will run away and kill you another way. Aggression is not necessary.

People who are successful with aggressive strategies will usually advise aggressive strategies. Boxers and other sports oriented martial arts practitioners intentionally choose a system of engagement that enforces their preferred strategies. I always loved listening to people talking about martial arts and saying, "Well, in a real fight, that wouldn't work. Your martial art is so crap." I'd always be thinking, "Well in a real fight, I'd be running away so fast that you'd never, ever catch me". I mean, I'm a very fast runner (true fact: For my black belt exam they sent 20 people after me to help me understand that you can't win every fight. I ran away. Apparently I was the first person to try that approach).

I'm going to hazard a guess that you actually don't have a problem with aggression. You have a problem with winning. Similar to aggression, there are people who will simply turn up the heat until they bake everyone else out. You say that you don't work in a horrible politics-only corporation. This says to me that you don't like dealing with people stealthily stabbing each other in the back to get what they want. If you start playing the politics game, there will be someone who will think, "Yay! Another play partner for me to crush". And they will make your life a living hell -- because they can either generate that hell at an incredible rate, or they can tolerate any hell that you can throw back at them (and may even enjoy it).

No matter what strategy you pick to win, there will be someone who loves that strategy and who is willing to go just that little bit farther than you are. They are willing to put up with just that little bit more than you are. Just so they can win.

Imagine that there are 6 people. A guest comes by and drops off 5 cupcakes. Oh! Not enough. One person may think, "I won't have one. Then there will be enough". Another person may think, "I'd better rush to get a cupcake or else I won't get one". And yet another one will simply walk up and take all 5 cupcakes. "Each of us had an equal chance to get all five of these cupcakes. You guys were just too slow. This is the only fair method of distribution", they will say as they devour all of the cupcakes.

It is not aggression that wins the cupcakes. It's being a jerk. It's being willing to go just that little bit further. It's being willing to tolerate the stares and arguments. It's being able to confidently reply to any complaint, "Well, you are just mad because you are a loser".

And you know what... I think that choosing not to play this game is a completely sane choice. There are consequences, for sure. However, it is worth considering that you might actually prefer those consequences.

[Igrom → mikekchar]

Thank you for a well thought-out write-up and a different voice.

[somedude0]

I'd start with the physical level before addressing the psychological level, because it's simpler to address, and will likely make the changes you want.

Consider eating high protein, high fat foods. Drink a lot of whole milk. Lift weights daily and exercise. Be efficient with your lifting (focus on deadlift, overhead press, bench press, and squat) Take a break from smoking pot and other drugs.

Yes, this is totally bro science, but I can build up a scientific argument that muscle growth will increase testosterone levels, which in turn will lead to more aggressive behavior.

Or if you want a simpler solution, just get on testosterone replacement therapy. You'd want to consult a medical professional before supplementing testosterone.

I know this seems like a joke, but it actually works: https://stronglifts.com/gomad/

[copperx → somedude0]

With all respect, this is insane advice. Testosterone theraphy comes with cancer risks. It would be more ethical to straight-up recommend amphetamines. At least the agression would show itself in a few minutes.

[sabersei2]

I have a recommendation for you: BE YOURSELF!

[austincheney]

Like other comments have suggest steer towards assertiveness and away from hostility.

How did I learn to develop assertiveness? I had kids. I wish I were kidding. Children love to exercise their defiance and sometimes they simply ignore you repeatedly. Aggression is a natural response and somethings it speaks more loudly than volume or words and when aggression is in full blossom children no longer claim ignorance though they don't always end their defiance.

Having and managing children in combination with the time limitations of balancing a military career with a corporate programming career has taught me professional confrontation with minimal words. In most cases a 1 word answer is enough and preferrable: yes or more commonly no. Some people might find that offensive when I provide a one word answer to their 20 minute question, but I don't care. When I am trying to make a point and people want to play fuck fuck games I will ask a question repeatedly until the other person distills their answer down to a single word. There is absolutely no reason to develop this communication behavior unless you are consistently short on time and frequently surrounded by nonsense.

Counter-intuitively an aggressive posture is good for convincing people to not be in a hurry. Hurry is an excellent one word answer for panic or I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing but I want to look important. I have never heard this expressed so eloquently as I have from dumb Army guys: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. In other words don't hurry, but instead be deliberate, plan, conduct rehearsals, and make fewer mistakes. You will get done much faster. Unfortunately, the corporate is completely lost on this concept.

When you need to express aggression in writing... don't. Treat it like sarcasm and don't put it in writing where its value will be lost and the result is only confusion. Save aggression for face-to-face communication only, particularly in front of a group if you have leadership responsibility. Even then its only the appearance of aggression that is important and only when a situation demands it. If it becomes common people will learn to ignore it and you. In writing its best to be immediately confrontational, but phrase it in a way that sounds helpful. An example: What do you need from me to publish those documents today?. You are phrasing a pointed command with a specific deadline as a kind suggestion to volunteer some assistance.

If still you wish to be assertive, not aggressive, in a personal confrontation do so because your opinion is important for health of the organization. Do not do so because you are dumb blunt weapon to beat somebody with. The goal is to push things forward and prevent selfish people distracting others with their foolishness.

If you must exercise aggression or confrontation do not ever make it passive. People will view this as cowardly or untrustworthy. You should always be trying to build stronger and positive relationships and nothing will burn down those bridges faster than cowards lighting torches to hurt the organization. Always strive for the moral high-ground with directness, clarity, and brevity. For more details on this please read about the 4 Horsemen of Relationships: https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-c...

[babygoat → ratfaced-guy]

“Soy boy”?

[lyxsus]

Did you already check your testosterone level and consulted therapist?

[claudiawerner → lyxsus]

If OP is a woman, that advice probably wouldn't do her much good.

[lyxsus → claudiawerner]

Oh, you're right. But that's a rare case where it's an important thing to mention. Anyway, that's a health-related problem and my point was to bring it to a specialist. I think it's a terrible idea to ask that kind of questions in internet.

[rand_r]

So many things to unpack here, but on a pyschological level, focus on the negative emotions (and hopefully anger) you’re feeling now as you think about why you wrote this post.

Really reflect on it and sort of keep it in your back pocket so the next time someone is harsh or you feel they’re not listening to you, you can channel the anger and use it to be more aggressive.

[infogulch → rand_r]

That sounds a lot like harboring a grudge, which I personally work to avoid as pointless. Is that a good (maybe harsh) summary of the technique you're suggesting? Maybe you could expound some more?

[rand_r → infogulch]

Oh, I missed something in the explanation: it’s anger at yourself. Like anger or disappointment in yourself for not standing up for yourself in the past.

In that sense, it’s a self-grudge if anything.

But the main idea is that emotions have energy behind them, and you can harness them to motivate yourself.

[somedude0 → rand_r]

I'm not sure coming at problems in the workplace with anger is going to get you very far.

I'd suggest focusing on being more confidant and assertive, rather than trying to harbor self-resentment.

[rand_r → somedude0]

Ha ha, I would say that emotion doesn’t define your actions, it only motivates them. The key idea, and what transformed how I think, is that emotions like anger aren’t inherently bad.

Although people usually think of them negatively, as opposed to more positive emotions like love or excitement, negative emotions like fear and anger can be good driving forces.

Both positive and negative emotions are part of the design of Human psychology evolving over a long period and there is deep intelligence in them.