I hope you’ll chat with a few friends about why you decided to write this to the few remaining stragglers.
I should do the same though I know why I’m a mess :)
Your response is heartfelt. It misconstrues the point many were making. None of us know the details of your fertility. We don’t know anything more about you than what you say. The points about your fertility were about its perception not about its reality. You seem like the sort of person who tries to avoid making quick judgments based on stereotypes. Most aren’t like that.
I believe it touches on an important political issue.
I feel that this country is very very divided.
It's important we discuss these matters in our own community and not just yell and point fingers at the other side.
This was bothering me.
I feel men try to control women's bodies all the time.
And diagnosing my fertility, I do believe, is a subtle way of trying to control my body, even if it isn't Clarence Thomas overturning Roe V Wade.
Perhaps if I speak my peace, others will think twice before they make an assumption about an individual woman's body and assume they know better than her.
It may have misconstrued some, but others were very very blatant in their beliefs about women's fertility in general - which I would argue, clearly had nothing to do with this post.
Many laughed at me posting this on a forum dominated by men in their twenties.
As not the best place to get advice on this issue.
I, however, have found it interesting.
I will argue with you though. If you look at the language, many people on this people volunteered their facts about my fertility without any expression that it was a perception, but just a fact.
I will add that the moderators have been incredibly vigilant in deleting and flagging some of the more misogynistic comments that have been posted here including one that said, "your baby will definitely be abnormal"
I feel and I have always felt that it's easy to point fingers at Trump for saying "grab them by the pussy" in a van, but it's harder to address misogyny in your own community and treat the people who are being misogynistic as human beings. That starts by expressing your own humanity and seeing theirs.
These people can continue to go around telling women in their forties that they are infertile and act like they know better than a doctor, or maybe the next time they meet a woman like me, they will pause and see that might be hurtful, and be more curious instead of volunteering these unsolicited "Facts" about her body.
These are random musings.
However, the most important thing about writing that answer was that I needed to stand up for myself.
And express why this bothered me so much.
I know my body better than the people in this forum.
The comments made me doubt that a couple times.
I needed to stand up for myself.
I felt better.
Thanks for asking.
Also, I am not a mess. I'm sorry if you feel you are. You don't seem like a mess, but you know yourself best :) Good luck to you.
I understand why you wanted the focus to be more generic. That's not how I or most other problem solvers I know approach solving problems. Certainly, one could write out a general theory of optimal mate selection that you would be able to apply to yourself without further back and forth. Crafting such a theory is several orders of magnitude more difficult than searching for a potential improvement in a given implementation.
With the disclaimer that I can't speak for others, I suggest that figuring out your rejection function isn't about deciding whether a given decision is good or bad and most certainly isn't an attempt to tell you who you should be attracted to.
There are a few intellectually interesting puzzles it presents:
1. Given some sense of what appeals to actfrench, where is she likely to find more such people? //You provided enough information to give a sense of this
2. Is there a discernible reason that the men she tends to accept tend to reject her? //I have a hypothesis but this is less clear
3. Is there some fundamental conflict between different aspects of what she likes? //Again, less clear
4. Are there reasons to filter someone out earlier in the process? //Again, maybe but unclear
As you note, you have no obligation to deal with any of this. But since you came back after a few days and decided to invest your energy in this, I'm giving you the perspective of one of those guilty of the aforementioned sin on why your psyche seems like a crucial part of solving the puzzle.
Ultimately dating is optimizing three things:
1. The utility of members of the candidate stream: P(Match) - Cost of discovery
2. The quality of rejection function which is a function of both information collected and discriminatory power
3. The probability that the candidate one most wants, wants you back
Anyway, yes, we can solve any problem in the world. One of us has to decide to build a new type of matching experience. I've toyed with doing so as I'm sure dozens of others here have. Sadly, the main constraint is time. Do we fix dating or healthcare or politics or education or just keep our little slice of industry functioning smoothly in exchange for the resources to live.
It will be solved. When and by whom remains unknown. In the meantime, cheers to special casing the problem and decrementing the target market size by one.
“ I understand why you wanted the focus to be more generic.” Actually I wanted the focus to be more specific- on how individuals had solved this problem for themselves, rather than on giving me generic advice.
Huh! That makes sense. And is also confusing. It’s not problem solving; it’s reading stories from which you might glean some combination of hope and a technique or two to mimic.
If I wanted to solicit stories like that, I’d tend to post on Reddit rather than HN and ask something like, “How did those of you who went on dozens or even a hundred dates with little success find a life partner?”
His own hand or 5 dollars worth of silicon can create that "unique" pleasant sensation. You need to provide a better argument than that for me to talk to you about this. A man is exausted and jaded for days after sex, prolactin release, the refractory period etc. Its natures way to limit an alphas ability to spread his seed in the population. Sexual energy and Semen Retention can transform a man totally if he has the discipline not to release it for a couple of seconds of pleasure. He can still have sex once he has become grounded in the practice and his brain has undergone changes which usually takes 6-12 months, then he just has to avoid orgasms to keep the benefits.
As a man not much younger than you, it's helpful to hear that's a turn-off. What to ask when is tricky. I see several options:
1. Estimate the odds of successfully procreating upfront; Downside: Can seem boorish and unromantic and ruin the chance of a potentially successful relationship.
2. Keep getting to know each other and discuss once we're more comfortable with each other. If the answer is unfavorable:
a. Be honest about the reason for ending the relationship; Downside: Cruel to one's partner and heartbreaking
b. Fabricate an excuse for ending things; Downside: Dishonest and unfair to partner; guilt and heartbreak
c. Stay anyway; Downside: Reduces likelihood of having children
All this to say, I worry that your gut reaction may be filtering out the men most serious about having children. If someone knows you as a multi-dimensional being beyond a dating prospect first the approach changes. So I'd add this as a reason meet people through others means.
Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to.
This is the dilemma with so many things. In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale. A bit like the education problem...
I think that it’s perfectly fine to be up front that you want children to a woman, even the first date - or filtering for woman who also want children.
What is not ok is inferring that they couldn’t have children because of their age or asking very pointed questions about their reproductive health on a first date, especially if they don’t want to volunteer that information to someone they barely know. Don’t you think it would be odd if a woman who you were ok a first date asked you about your sperm count and pressured you to reply if you weren’t able to volunteer that info immediately ?
The other thing is that I am clear about my age and desire to have children in my dating profile, so it’s upsetting to have someone second guess me on a first date…
If a woman is kind and compassionate and honest and not sure about her ability to have kids, when you’ve expressed a strong desire to have them, she’ll take the high road and tell you or leave the relationship.
If you are ready to get more serious with someone and have trust and intimacy built up, it is totally ok to have that conversation.
"Of course, you're doing that now. This has gotten so much attention that it I'd give you one-third odds of being married in 18 months to either someone who saw this thread or someone someone who sees this thread introduces you to."
That's a really kind and encouraging thought. I appreciate that.
It's kind of amusing to me that people are starting to think the way I presented myself in this post is the way I should present myself on a first date. I would also worry about scaring someone away! That said, I've already met a couple people through the post, so maybe being up front and explicit about what I want is a good thing!
In trying to figure out a generic way of solving the problem, you take an approach that works fabulously for you but is difficult to scale." ->> so true
" A bit like the education problem..." nice one:) you pay attention to detail!
You came back to a thread a day later to engage. That takes an unusual amount of dedication and patience.
An assortment of thoughts:
I hope you read How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's not because you need it to know how to communicate. While I'm sure you'd learn a few things about talking to others, I suspect you'll learn something about the way various styles of communication make you feel. You can see it in the variance of of your responses in this thread. I'm not convinced that this is a core issue but seeing the way a few different comments have elicited affection combined with your comment about wanting to feel seen makes me think it could explain why the men who attract you so often tend to disappear.
It might be interesting to ask your dates at what point during the thread they decided they wanted to get to know you. I can imagine a more analytical person finding you appealing enough from the intro. But if I had to guess, this medium works for two reasons. The non-scalable one is that humans care more as they know someone better. The thread is long and you get vastly more mental attention than through other means of introduction. The scalable ones are attributes that come through in your comments but not in your post: You radiate earnestness and ebullience at a level that's rare even in humans a decade younger; you're indefatigably engaged; you have the patience to try and reason with almost anyone yet occasionally lose your temper which is further evidence of complexity; in short you appear human.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time and energy people have spent being engaged with this and their genuine desire to help.
In terms of action items : I will read the book How To Win Friends, and I’m also going to focus on developing relationships with male friends and dating more. Taking more time to get to know people and they me.
Speaking of being indefatigable, I am quite driven when I want something and it’s hard for me to stop, but especially with some of the more recent comments, I think I’ve reached the fatigued point.
With regards to dates : I went out with an incredible guy today that I met through this post, 10x liked him more than any of the last 90 dates.
He said what drew him is how brave I sounded.
We will see what happens but I’ll going to focus on friendship and being bold. I asked him to hang out again :)
Thanks for your kind words and I look forward to reading the book :)
I liked the fact that they were outliers.
Attractive men who didn't know that they were attractive.
And appreciated and saw my intelligence.
And socially awkward, so I felt I had something to bring to the relationship and that I wouldn't have to compete too hard for them, like they'd be nicely tucked behind their computer away from other women to steal from me.
And very data-driven, scientific-minded, so I felt confident their caring meant something - and that they were honest, not manipulative.
And that my ability to present myself well and emotional intelligence was something of value to them, that they admired.
You answered the thing you feared to answer elsewhere :) Or perhaps there's more?
A lot of this makes sense. This seems consistent with my understanding of who you are. If your assessment of them was accurate, I'm surprised they left so readily. This makes me wonder what the 12 or so second dates would say.
I wonder if this suggests there were men you were even more interested in who you didn't go out with again because they seemed too perfect, because you felt you wouldn't be good enough.
Your experience suggests you can solve your problem in one of two ways: Figure out how to interest the attractive men in commitment; figure out how to feel attraction to someone who will commit.
It might help to analyze what makes you feel attracted to someone. What were the moments, characteristics, or sensations that inspired you to conclude you were attracted to that 10%?
When I first read your comments, I felt almost sure that you were someone I already knew, one of my mentors. But then you mentioned you were younger than me, so that got me curious about who you are:) You're very insightful, much wiser than your years it seems. If you ever feel like revealing yourself, I'd love to speak to you about the product I'm building (not my love life), because it seems like you are acutely intelligent and really know the right questions to ask. You're honest, but in a gentle way. Anyway, you know where to find me:) No pressure.
I can't really tell you this because I fear it will make me look extremely judgmental. I think that there are many men in this thread who have felt a lot of pain being rejected by woman and take my comments personally.
However, I will say that for the 10%, there was nothing that extremely bothered me, that they were fine (nice-looking enough, smart enough, good listener enough, nothing mind-blowing - not looking for super models or master conversationalists). If I felt I could tolerate them for a second date, I'd go on one.
You're absolutely right that much of the energy on a thread like this comes from those who have been rejected. Did you notice how much more pleasant your interactions with partnered men tend to be? That's likely has a multi-layered cause but it's easy to see why it makes your job on the dating market harder.
What's wrong with being judgmental? You've allowed yourself to be at various junctures but often seem to feel guilty about it later. I do sympathize: "Judgmental" doesn't have a great connotation. Yet decisive and discerning do and signify something similar.
As you've noted, it's not essential you discuss this with a universe of strangers. I do hope you're comfortable with your judgmental side with others you're closed to so you can get to the bottom of the misalignment between initial indicia of attraction and the factors that make a relationship with you successful in the long term.
This comment largely confirms my thesis about you: You're someone who has spent your life trying to be good in various senses and through various ways. You put a ton of pressure on yourself. A lot of good can flow from that for the people towards whom you direct your goodness and for yourself as you've developed a reputation as someone who does good things. It can also be costly because despite our conditioning, our striving to be higher purer beings, we're still animals with various needs some of which are more difficult to acknowledge. Sometimes we desperately want conflicting things.
I should do the same though I know why I’m a mess :)
Your response is heartfelt. It misconstrues the point many were making. None of us know the details of your fertility. We don’t know anything more about you than what you say. The points about your fertility were about its perception not about its reality. You seem like the sort of person who tries to avoid making quick judgments based on stereotypes. Most aren’t like that.