> I would think that OKC, etc. would in the end benefit from their contribution.
That's BS and you know it. If that were the case, OP's startup should've bought ads on OKC and OKC would be glad to sell ad space. I really doubt that OKC or its parent company will sell ads to a competitor dating site.
OkCupid does have big ads for PlentyOfFish on their logout screen. They do allow ads, but of course, PlentyOfFish is paying for that ad space. Many niche or competitor dating sites advertise on other dating sites, but since it's paid advertising, the benefits outweigh the possible loss of users (think of it as shared users?).
Ignoring the fact that you're calling me dishonest for a moment, here's how I see it:
1. OKC is a listing of profiles where the lister is expected to manage the transaction
2. The management of the transaction is a huge friction and pain point for a significant number of people (as is writing a profile, taking pics, etc...for which there are also people that help).
3. this service reduces/removes that friction/pain point for okc.
4. this service is NOT a listing of profiles (as far as I can tell)
5. this service does NOT discourage people from signing up for OKC, Match, POF, etc...in my view it encourages participation in those services (whether implicitly or explicitly).
If I'm missing the mark on any of the above, feel free to correct me.
> 5. this service does NOT discourage people from signing up for OKC, Match, POF, etc...in my view it encourages participation in those services (whether implicitly or explicitly).
As far as I understand it from the copy on Dating Ring's web page, their service is meant to replace all those dating sites. It's a fire-and-forget product that frees you from the need of maintaining an on-line profile and visiting a dating site - discouraging people from singing up for OKC is exactly what it is meant to do.
Did you seriously just say that "paid advertising rarely works?" Really? You believe that the entire 50 $billion Internet advertising industry is just wasting its money?
I could have been more specific, but paying for advertising on OKCupid for this startup in particular is just not going to work. It's not cost effective and very few people will be clicking through on those ads.
I guess the better way to put it is that if your startup has to resort to paid advertising as the main user acquisition funnel, you probably already lost unless you have ridiculous conversion and LTV on each user.
I think that "paid advertising rarely works" is actually true and yes, the whole (Internet or not) advertising industry is really wasting tons of money - and more importantly, fuel and labor.
The thing is, marketing is mostly zero-sum game; people are stuck in a negative feedback loop of throwing more and more money to one-up their competitors at attracting customers from the same limited pool. It's an unlimited resource sink, but it's a) what you have to do lest you get outcompeted by others, and b) profitable for those who facilitate advertising.
Weixiyen is also right that this "growth hack" is effective, but remember that "growth hacking" is mostly a fancy term for spamming / abusing trust. Every new way to trick people into buying something will work for a while, until everyone else starts doing the same and the ROI drops to zero.
Once upon a time, a pop-up banner was the clever growth hacking trick. As HN's idlewords tells the story,
"One of the first banner ads had a click-through rate of 78%. That's mind-boggling. Do you know what two words were on that banner ad?
"Shop Naked!" CLICK!
But banner ads turned out to be like poison ivy. People clicked them once, and learned never to touch them again. The industry collapsed in a flurry of pop-overs, pop-unders, and shame."
From the same outfit that brought you that weird crowdfunding campaign to send women from New York over to woman-starved Silicon Valley: https://www.tilt.com/campaigns/working-on-it
I actually think this is an interesting example of YC's investments, but not for the reason you seem to suggest.
YC's public persona is all about "hyper-growth" and building "very large" companies[1]. But if you go through the list of companies it has funded, a good number would have a very difficult time making a prima facie case that they fit the profile of a business that can achieve significant growth and scale. Dating Ring is the perfect example of that.
There are numerous challenges associated with breaking into the online dating space generally. First, the costs of customer acquisition are typically quite high because there's so much competition. That makes it very difficult for new services to gain traction without significant investment in advertising. Second, there's an additional level of churn built in to this market because when a dating service works, it loses customers. That produces a constant need for investment in the aforementioned user acquisition which is so costly.
More specifically, Dating Ring seems to be positioned in no man's land (no pun intended). It can't compete with the quantity and immediate gratification of online services that cost nothing or roughly the same, and it can't compete with the quality and exclusivity of matchmaking services which generally have costs signaling much higher value.
If the OP's comment is true, Dating Ring would ironically appear to be offering the worst of both worlds by trying to package users from the former as part of a service masquerading as the latter. Even with adjustments to its model, the odds that this company ever achieves "hyper-growth" or becomes a very large business are next to nil.
Nothing about that campaign itself was sexist. But mix women and dating, and you get a ton of outcry from the media that the women are prostitutes. As a feminist company, that wasn't fun for us to be associated with, but there was little we could do about that. The trip was mostly a joke, and also because we honestly thought a few people may end up having a good time. And one woman ended up falling in love and is now moving to SF.
So, I'd hold off on insulting YC based on some publicity we've received. And .. all press is good press for growth for an early stage startup.
Given that 'feminist' and 'feminism' are used by many people to mean many different things, it would be nice to specify what being a feminist company means.
Is it just a company run by people who self-identify as feminists, maybe one that only hires other people who self-identify as feminists? If so, how do you enforce this? Or is the company's feminism defined by specific policies that are based in a specific meaning of 'feminism', and if so, what are they?
I feel you are being disingenuous in your disagreement - that you're deliberately trying to be combative as opposed to engaging in honest discussion.
Clearly, goals can belong in several umbrella categories at the same time. Most people would agree that "not harassing women" falls under "not being a bad person." But, at the same time, it is also a major goal of most feminists.
> Given that 'feminist' and 'feminism' are used by many people to mean many different things, it would be nice to specify what being a feminist company means.
feminism = social political and economical equality between women and men. A company culture with feminist values means equal maternity and paternity policies, thoughtful consideration for hiring 50/50 men and women, providing health care that covers birth control, etc. Just thinking about equality in every business decision.
> As a feminist company, that wasn't fun for us to be associated with, but there was little we could do about that.
I don't see how your company could describe itself and feminist while also making a campaign that relies on some of the structural sexism of the Valley and tech. How did that campaign challenge the existing power structures and stereotypes/mythology of tech?
So what was the goal then? It seemed like a legit campaign that was raising actual money. How does one reconcile their company as feminist with how that campaigned operated?
The goal was free marketing via the press who zeroed in on what appeared to be an ongoing SV story - Bubble 2.0 + gender imbalance + hapless engineer stereotypes.
And by any measure, it was outrageously successful.
> How does one reconcile their company as feminist with how that campaigned operated?
By accepting those women as adults who are free and intelligent enough to make decisions that may not necessarily line up with the common branch of feminism popularized by the media.
You don't have to spend every waking moment of your life, nor every resource or effort of an organization you belong to, to prove that you're worthy of associating with an ideal like feminism. If they identify with the feminist cause and support it, they don't need to prove it to you or justify how their campaign is or isn't feminist. It wasn't intended to be a feminist campaign, and it doesn't invalidate the rest of who they are or what they identify with.
I'm not saying that they have to constantly spend time justifying themselves, but it is important to look critically at the work a company does when it claims to be feminist. In regards to the tilt campaign, I don't see how that campaign challenges the status quo and pushes for women's rights. I do see how it could be viewed as promoting or exploiting the mythology of male culture the Valley to raise money, which to some may be anti-feminist in nature.
> If they identify with the feminist cause and support it, they don't need to prove it to you or justify how their campaign is or isn't feminist.
We've seen that many times organizations that claim feminism or feminist principles often don't act in a way that is supporting of women, so being critical is fully warranted when an organization says one thing but does something that seems to do nothing but perpetuate existing stereotypes and problems. Moreover, they made the claim, not me, so asking "why is what you are doing feminist" is important.
> I do see how it could be viewed as promoting or exploiting the mythology of male culture the Valley to raise money, which to some may be anti-feminist in nature.
Is it a mythology if it is based on hard facts? I.e. this sounds a bit like saying that heat engine works on mythology of lower energy levels in a heat sink. Also note that just like heat engine equalizes energy levels between source and sink, such campaing seeks to equalize gender inbalance. Which I guess is as feminist as you can get.
I think it is actually beneficial for a person or an organization working toward women's right to disassociate themselves from the feminism movements and related labels lest they actually do end up spending all their time constantly justifying themselves.
You can't compare a physical phenomenon to a social one, especially when the existence and magnitude of the latter is heavily contested by people with agendas that rely on the phenomenon's existence and magnitude.
Just like the utility of heat engines is heavily contested by us making sure heat sink never averages with the heat source. That's why you have a radiator in your car.
My point is, that a) that campaign didn't foster a myth, it used a real, existing potential gradient and b) it is very much pro-feminist as long as they're letting things equalize and not actively trying to maintain that gender gradient.
ETA: of course I can compare a physical phenomenon to a social one, mathematical models don't differentiate between those. Still, I chose that example only to highlight that calling facts a "mythology" is weird.
Do a version replacing "growth hacking" with "spamming" and "marketing" with "lying", and I'll very happily install it (and wire you two beers worth of money, if you have a donate button or sth.).
This is seriously the dumbest theory yet in these threads. Maybe it's just making the rounds now? (it's not even the first time in this very discussion!)
Not only would it be a horrible return on investment (and one that would take years to come to fruition), it's also never brought up about every other coding initiative out there. Let me know when you start bringing this up in every thread about corporate-sponsored hackathons, education events, scholarship programs, or just plain old "getting started" guides.
Good news: I see three on the front page right now! I'll wait.
It's shocking and unconscionable. Some people are even given a leg up by parents that care for them and sacrifice for them and push them to succeed. Those nazis will be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Don't they know they are oppressing other children through their success?
and people with cameras, and everybody protesting.. the status quo dont want people protesting.. or fighting for their rights... the midia show only "black blocks", wich is always a minority, to criminalize the movement, and make people hate protests.. mostly of course.. brainwashed people manipulated by the corporate media...
Your comment are really uninformed, or probably very bad informed.. i think you dont have a clue of whats really going on behind the curtains of power..
You jest, but in 2012 someone from the PSF made a "joke", at PyCon, asking people, men and women: "want to see my one-eyed snake?".
Unfortunately, the same Python feminists that are ready to burn anyone who disagree with them regarding the use of a pronoun [1], for instance, were very quiet and dismissive about that other, and bigger, issue. [2]
