Jesus.. why go all the psychological-modo-bojo-bullshit like this in the first place? Why not just try to be honest on both sides?
Granted, let’s say the recruiter got me in with lower than expected salary and I got into the company. One month into it, I find out that they are paying me lower than the new recruits with the same level of expertise as me.
What do you think I would do in this kind of situation? I will feel cheated and be already on another job hunt while wasting this company time in the mean time.
Whose lost? The company that hires the super smart psychologist recruiter that got me in or me?
To me, a life that is in content and has meaning trumps all those whatever higher trajectory means. I mean.. isn’t achieving those higher trajectories the goal of being content and having achieve the meaning if it exits at all?
I'd be proud of it, if they were a good person, took care of themselves, took care of the people around them, and were truly happy in their lives. Some people are perfectly happy working low-level positions in restaurants, sanitation, retail, and the like for their lives, and maybe maintaining a few hobbies and relationships that give them personal meaning off their work hours.
It's only a problem if they aren't actually content. I've known tons of people working minimum wage who sneer at "elites", don't seek higher things, and get high all the time, but really resent the fact that they never did anything with their lives. They don't build their hobbies, they don't seek higher levels of employment or skill, and they constantly talk about how they want to do great things that they never do.
There will always be an infinite amount of achievement that you never accomplished. There will always be an infinite number of things you never did. The best thing you can do is prioritize, accomplish the things that you really want to accomplish, and try to do your best to be happy with what you are able to do. Live your life happily, and make the people around you happy.
What if we took a more extreme version of this? Like your kid builds and sells a startup (this being HN), so now they're set for life financially, and they decide what they'll do with it is buy a lifetime supply of heroin, hire a caretaker to take care of their basic needs, and basically get high indefinitely. They're happy, they're not hurting anybody, they're even providing a living for someone. Assume they're perfectly happy too. Is that good?
I mean, you can certainly argue that the meaning of life is entirely arbitrary, and there is indeed nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants to do. But I feel like the world is generally a better place when people in it strive for more than mere contentment. And for me personally, a couple of the key things that give life positive meaning are building relationships with other people, and striving to better myself—learning things, building skills, etc. I'm glad I do these things, rather than living an alternate life where I was equally (or maybe even if I were somehow more) subjectively happy, but less active.
> An infinite amount of possible achievements is no excuse not to strive for anything.
If they're striving for happiness and they are happy, mission accomplished right?
I assume they'd still have their own goals and hobbies outside of work or things which bring in money. Why assume those things don't matter?
I didn’t say anything about work. I know people with interesting and worthwhile accomplishments or hobbies outside the field of career advancement. This is great and I’d be pleased if my child found something, money or no, to pursue passionately. I also know people (stoners being overrepresented) who are completely passive consumers watching life drift by, who only play games/watch shows and don’t do anything creative or challenging. It’s not a lifestyle I would take pride in. I don’t mean that as an attack, exactly - pride is earned, and to earn it you have to actually do something.
that's fair enough. I've never met anyone (stoner or not) who wasn't striving for something. I mean, in some cases it might not have been more than status in an MMO guild, or building/maintaining collections, or personal writing, but everybody I've ever met has something they're into and love doing.
I can't even imagine what a life of passive, mindless, consumption without any creative outlet would even be like. It's frankly depressing to think about!
FWIW, I have heard it said that the people who always expected to work at hourly-wage level are happier than the the college graduates next to them who didn't.
It is possible that some jobs are meant to be stepping stones, not permanent positions (ie: you outgrow them, and someone lower on the learning totem pole steps into the role for a time).
So I absolutely agree with your opinion, and I think everyone should be paid a livable wage and should be able to live a meaningful life off their work pay.
That said, I think the argument of “stepping stone” job salaries is less crazy in the context of people who are dépendants of other adults. If you’re a teen and you live with parents who provide food and housing and basics like that, you’re needs from the wages are different. Plenty of jobs make sense as “silly shit teens do for spending money” that would also be considered “awful life for full time adult worker”. Some of these jobs only exist because there are short term employees willing to do it for low pay. It’s fine IMO that they exist but it’d be wrong to assume that an adult should have to live of it.
I think we should push for livable wages and ensure everyone can be happy and healthy from their salary. I don’t know if it’s even possible to protect the adults in “low skill” jobs without making it hard to have “stupid summer part time jobs” for teens. If it is possible, then we should allow those teens to have their dumb low pay jobs and not raise too much of a fuss.
This seems to be from the view point of a top percent home.
35 million Americans are on snap. 53 million Americans used a food pantry in 2021 (thesev groups don't always intersect)
Whether it's urban, rural, or suburban (high percentage shift since 2008), the percent of Americans that have parents that can provide food, shelter - much less plan for education and their own retirement is not a very high number for this phrasing.
Imagine if the expectation was that a part time fast food job could pay even half of college expenses.
> I don’t know if it’s even possible to protect the adults in “low skill” jobs without making it hard to have “stupid summer part time jobs” for teens.
Why not just limit some jobs or minimum wages to teens who can demonstrate that they're already financially supported? Most people earning minimum wage are adults, but we could require companies to pay adults or teens supporting themselves higher wages. We could also set age limits on certain types of work, but then you run the risk of not having enough kids looking for work with everything else they've got going on.
They wouldn't be able too. It's a great job for a high school kid or one with a low IQ that has limited options to start with. But it should be temporary to teach you how to be responsible, show up on time, do your job correctly, etc.
Everyone is focusing on whether being content with working at Taco Bell is sufficient in life, but I think the more interesting question is whether they truly are content. That's not for me to answer, but if the South Park quote has any truth (and I think it has more than a little), in 50 years' time, they themselves might not be happy with how things went in retrospect. In that case, it's possible they weren't really content all that time, but were using weed to avoid deeply feeling that discontent.
I say this as someone with at least a little experience, not to be judgmental.
> in 50 years' time, they themselves might not be happy with how things went in retrospect
There are moments in later life where everyone feels that way.
Statistically, some paths might be show up in studies as more reliable in terms of late life contentment, but on an individual level, we all end up noticing that we left a lot of doors unopened, and can find ourselves stuck wishing we made different choices or had different opportunities.
Innumerable careerists and dedicated parents and globe-trotters find themselves stuck discontent, bitter, or resentful. And innumerable people of all paths look back, wonder what could have been different, and reconcile themselves to contentment again. And heck — some people just die before reaching their goals at all.
There’s no point speculating whether the chill dude at the Taco Bell is doing it right. They know themselves better than any of us do, and may easily end up more durably content than any of us.
> There are moments in later life where everyone feels that way.
old Successful Career guy: should have spent more time with family and friends <starts sobbing>
old Poor Artist guy: should have worked harder and more conservative then I could have afforded a house, now I have to rent <gets all whiney>
--
the question is the mental state developed. are you somebody who regrets everything and is never happy with what you have because you alwaya need more? or are you able to be grateful and enjoy calmly small things and accept how life is?
> There’s no point speculating whether the chill dude at the Taco Bell is doing it right.
I agree, but I think there is value in speculating whether the contentment we feel on weed is really just distraction from discontent. This applies to far more than just weed, of course, but my own experience is that weed is particularly tricky in this regard.
Sure, and you could raise exactly the same question to all the people on prescribed psychiatric regimens. They all come with tradeoffs and change the nature of how we experience our lives. That's the point of them.
I don't have the insight to guess whether George should prefer to be skinnier and hornier but too depressed to meet his career goals, any more than it's my business to guess that Jane should put down the blunts and be more tuned in with all the drama in the news.
I'm busy enough trying to make those choices for myself.
That's fair, and I think it is also responsible to share our experiences with these things with others. Mine (and friends') is that weed is especially insidious in this regard, but it is indeed up to each person to decide for themselves.
> but I think the more interesting question is whether they truly are content.
That's a big rabbit hole right there. Ancient wisdom says that there's nothing in the material world which can give you true happiness/contentment/satisfaction. The world is transient and so is the happiness you get from it. Moksha/Nirvana/Samadhi is the only way to become truly happy, forever.
Weed invariably leads you to such questions. No wonder it's the gateway drug to spirituality.
People who ruined their lives with hard work and stress to make a billionaire richer while buying a useless polluting fancy car and big house, also have regrets.
Absolutely! And if we can identify factors which lead to us behaving in ways that make us feel such regrets, then this can help us lead better lives. Obviously weed isn't the only culprit.
Why not? My first job was Wendy's and honestly... It's not the least satisfying job I've had. My unwillingness to do it now has more to do with having become accustomed to the luxury that comes with a software developer salary than anything negative about fast food (same reason I won't go back to being a security guard, which was hands down the best job I ever had).
I feel like there's a strong argument to be made that the person working at Taco Bell and is satisfied with their life is better off than a random cube dweller slowly losing their soul in the name of material comforts.
Maybe you can pull off security guard and software development at the same time!
It's something I always joked about doing - but that was before everyone and their dog became remote.
Nowadays software development is so meeting heavy that nothing gets done but you're "working" all the time.
A bit of context that might be important: Most of my time spent as a security guard was spent either taking the closing shift at an outlet mall on the outskirts of town, or a night or weekend shift at a large office building. I rarely did things like work at a busy mall during the day.
The best part frankly was that there was so little I actually needed to do. I filled out a few forms, I walked the whole site X times of Y period (usually once every 1-2 hours, but depended on the site). Beyond that I was largely just expected to be at my post, reasonably alert and professional looking. My time was my own to do homework, study, read, program, or whatever. I realize that a job without anything to do is a nightmare for some people, but I've never had a problem filling my own time.
Other pros:
* I knew my regular sites almost like my home. Sure during they day there were tons of people, but by the night/weekend when I took over, I was basically the only person in the building and it felt like it was mine.
* Eating lunch on the roof overlooking the city.
* Some of the chillest co-workers I've ever met, from the maintenance crew to the other guards.
* 12-hours shifts meant I was usually only working 3 days a week.
* On holidays me and the maintenance guy would have private movie showings in the building auditorium.
Cons:
* 99% boring, but when things get exciting they get real exciting. Only time I've had guns pointed in my direction, and they were cops.
* I think getting off work and going to bed a 7 a.m. for years has permanently kind of borked my sleep.
It's this kind of motivation that fuels the efforts to make sure low-level jobs stay unpleasant, unsafe, and uncompensated. It's the "starter job" philosophy, where some jobs are only fit for an inferior class of people who should have no pride, although they produce and distribute almost everything material that we use. Children, immigrants, foreigners...
I'm reminded every day that my decision to never work with my hands again was a good one. Nobody respects people who provide for you, that's slave's work, mother's work(, teacher's work, nurse's work.) The ultimate CEO-guru would lie on a cushion all day, being washed and shaved by his VPs, periodically emitting syllables in an unknown language that would be interpreted by other VPs as commands to direct the people who actually do the work.
You're assuming that the two content children work at Taco Bell. For all you know they could have a (to whatever degree) higher-paying job doing literally anything else yet still be content with where they're at.
not sure what stereotype you have in mind but I don't see why this should be something keeping a parent from being proud. it's simple, yet honest work and that's about it. so what? not everybody wants or has to be a surgeon ffs
Not a parent, but I’d personally be more proud as a parent of a Taco Bell cook than, e.g. adtech or a high frequency trading firm (of course, sometimes these places are great for training or getting a name on a resume, but if that was my child’s career ambition I’d be sad). The only issue I would have would be whether they’re making enough to support their other goals.
I'm a parent. Yeah, Taco Bell isn't "ideal". But hey, is my kid happy? Are they keeping their life together? Are they staying out of trouble? Are their bills paid?
If the answer to all of those questions - especially the first - is yes, then I am happy. Of course I will push them to strive for more than that, but what they do with their lives when they leave the house is up to them, and at a bare minimum, I just want them to be happy with whatever they choose.
We homeschool our three children and put in a lot of time and effort to prepare them to provide for themselves. Do I care of they become the CEO of a company? Of course not but I do want them to achieve what they are capable of. I know my kids and their abilities. Taco bell is not their pinnacle.
I understand the underlying sentiment, but this is an awfully aggressive way to get your point across. The irony is that we tend to be aggressive when we're triggered due to unresolved traumas in ourselves -- which we then pass on to our own kids.
I'm not here to psychoanalyze you, but food for thought.
My friend who is a (really smart) SWE in Canada said that compared to his own country, he could live here on a fast food salary, smoke weed, make music and still have a better life than his home country.
We forget that a job where you get free food and a low wage for simple work is (historically speaking) extremely luxurious.
Because at some point, the $9.50/hr job at Taco Bell will run its course, and your child will end up with severely limited resources. Together with a lack of funding and poor health care options, your children will probably return back home to "evaluate their situation". At that point, they will start wondering why they have been left behind in society, why the system is rigged against them, etc.
As we all know (and frequently discussed here on HN), a minimal wage job results in limited housing options, limited healthcare options, limited educational options, etc. As a parent, it is my responsibility to prepare my children to become self sufficient beyond the minimum wage job. For the sake of themselves and their children.
This is garbage. Work hard, plan hard, save money. Push through setbacks. Maybe you won't be a billionaire.
But you can do pretty well in life. Don't blame others for your own laziness.
Just met a guy last month that spent 5 years working at a carwash at minimum wage. He saved up money the entire time. Got himself a van decked for mobile cleaning. He still works hard, but is making some serious money now.
Seen far more that just collect welfare checks, smoke pot and play videos or watch tv for 16 hours a day, while blaming "whomever" for their situation.
This descent from a job that pays bills to stereotypical taco bell to welfare checks had no premise in this subthread. Aren’t you by chance just angry at someone else who is not rushing to make your own American dream come true?
Because they are not oppressed and the system is not rigged against them (at least in the US). Each person has plenty of opportunity to do better. It's all about choice. You can choose to stay with your low-paying job or put some effort into getting educated and move up. The key here is "effort".
And, the comment that millions of people will never rise above minimum wage jobs is laughable. With the amount of free/low-cost education (community college, free on-line classes, military GI Bill), and the huge shortage of skilled trade workers [0], anyone in the US can do better than minimum wage. It just takes effort.
It's a nice line of thinking, sure—that you can achieve happiness and contentment without having to strive for the "best".
That's the whole point of the matter though, isn't it, that if you don't have ambition, then you voluntarily get yourself stuck in a rut of your making. "I'm content in that my life is shitty in X or Y way, but cannot do anything about it".
There was a time when I found comfort in thinking that I would grow up to be "comfortably middle class". My parents disabused me of that notion, and now that I am at that stage, I feel as though there is so much more I can learn and do, instead of clocking in and out day after day.
But hey, if you find happiness in working at a gas station or something, maybe you are more enlightened than I am.
I don’t understand the thought process of putting someone down based on what they do for a living. Particularly when it just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. The world around you revolves around people that clock in and out day after day. Maybe one day we’ll have 7.5 billion CEOs in the world, huh?
> I don’t understand the thought process of putting someone down based on what they do for a living
Discounting the counter productive condescension required to be the one putting the other guy down, we should all be honest with a simple fact: any typical software dev (just talking about what I know) can succeed at a gas station job while the reverse is not true.
This obviously does not afford the software dev the right to be a jerk to anybody (up or down the ladder).
I know I couldn’t do it. I’m good when it comes to tech stuff because it clicks with my brain and I enjoy it. I’ve worked these sorta jobs before. I did a bit of construction for a summer, and I worked a catering job for a few years. Chicago’s summer heat, humid, standing in front of an open flame for 6-12 hours—absolutely not. I came home utterly destroyed. The person I worked for absolutely loves it, though. He’s self-employed, works only on the weekends, is immensely proud of the food he cooks, and has been doing it for decades. Great guy to work for. If you wanna get paid cash and you love cooking, that’s a great job. I would absolutely never ever look down on someone that’s putting in work like that. Me personally, I’m not physically or mentally equipped for that sorta work long-term. And that’s fine.
I worked in grocery stores with people that I would argue are smarter than many of the devs I have worked with. My old manager when I was younger and working in a grocery store was on a path to be a medical doctor, but changed paths after his friend killed himself from the the stress of medical school.
Intelligence is only one of the many variables needed to succeed in certain occupations.
It's absolutely perplexing to me that people seem to think that it's blindly OK to generalize purely anecdotal data as absolute objective truth.
Although you have zero supporting evidence for this fatuous assertion, you're perfectly fine with passing it off as empirical data. If you actually took the time to speak to your average software dev particularly in America, you would find that it's more likely that they've worked customer facing retail when they were younger. These are pretty much the only types of jobs that are available during high school. I myself have worked at Walmart, Blockbuster video, Chick-fil-A, and as a landscaper during the summers. None of it was particularly taxing - although it was extremely tedious at times and often boring.
And while we're on the subject of anecdotal data I would say on the order of at least 60 to 70% of software devs that I've worked with in the past were actually in relatively good shape physically and usually were very conscientious about their diet and maintaining regular exercise.
We really need to be filtering people back to Reddit.
A zen master is alone in his mountain retreat wherever he stands. A life spent seeking further material enrichment or inner personal development will inevitably build a mansion of a self, requiring increasing maintenance and becoming even more difficult to live outside of, let alone deconstruct.
It is much easier to accomplish a universal perspective when you have much less 'self' to suppress. That's been the nature of monks of all variety for all of human history. I don't think it's a coincidence or disadvantage that cannabis enthusiasts have a less-selfish mentality.
Contentment is overrated. Contentment is a path to stagnation and decay. It's more important to achieve something of lasting value, even if that means a certain amount of angst and dissatisfaction along the way.
I uninstalled the Reddit app recently after they have banned some subs I used to browse. It seems just a freaking arrogant attitude to me that you want to control what I browse.
How power-tripped could you become by being able to control an Internet forum?
This. A lot of people get thrown into the top layer of the abstraction itself and then move down from there.
What instead should happens first is that these people should be shown the problems React or other frameworks for that matter are trying to solve. It is way more motivating to gradually move up the abstraction layer when learning.
Get the know the problem first and then find the solution to that problem. Not the other way around.
SwiftUI. I think Apple will put a lot of effort into it to be on the same level with UIKit. SwiftUI makes developing UI easier because it is declarative just like React Native and it takes less time to build your typical CRUD app on the apple platform.
Even though it’s extremely promising, I think it’s too early to start learning it, as you won’t be able to use in production for the next couple years because of the lack of backward compatibility.
Yeah, that dude has created something special on the internet. The sheer
number of hours on camera as well as his print materials blows my mind. He
also appears to be the nicest person on the planet.
It's an odd thing giving advice from the perch of mastery. Justin emphasizes
the "key" is transcribing songs. Similarly, as a go/baduk acolyte, I'm told by
dan players to study tesuji, but most of my practice is playing actual games,
just as it is playing actual songs.
Masters fall into the trap of thinking well, what would I do to get better?
Because of their own preternatural talent and a 360 view of the
discipline, they don't quite see that the less talented, casual learner needs
practice to be a non-chore to stay motivated.
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