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I was about to link the same article and I did not make my account to post this comment.

Sure, but you created your account 14 years ago and have lost of posts. The person to whom I'm replying created their account 0 minutes before posting the comment to which I am replying. Not really apples to apples.

I've never posted anything on hn before and saw this post and it reminded me of a blog I found interesting. So yes, I did make this account to post this comment

We all have to start somewhere, welcome aboard.

Very cool, welcome aboard!

can you explain why it matters?

i am trying (and failing!) to see any reason the account age matters in this particular case. but i could be missing something.

(i did not make this account just to reply to you)


The biggest reason why this is confusing is the Claude Agent SDK[0] will use subscription/oauth credentials if present. The terms update implies that there's some use cases where that's ok and other use cases (commercial?) where using their SDK on a user's device violates terms.

[0] https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/agent-sdk/overview


Had the same question, comment below quotes their docs saying Agent SDK using oAuth token is also not allowed.

It doesn't quote their docs, it quotes the page this post is about.

The SDK is Claude Code in a harnesss, so it works with your credentials the same way CC does.

But they're stating you can only use your subscription for your personal usage, not someone else's for their usage in your product.

I honestly think they're being short sighted not just giving a "3rd party quota" since they already show users like 4 quotas.

If the fear is 3rd party agents screwing up the math, just make it low enough for entry level usage. I suspect 3rd party token usage is bi-modal where some users just need enough to kick tires, but others are min-maxing for how mamy tokens they can burn as if that's its own reward


How can they be clearer that the Agents SDK is not allowed?

> OAuth authentication (used with Free, Pro, and Max plans) is intended exclusively for Claude Code and Claude.ai. Using OAuth tokens obtained through Claude Free, Pro, or Max accounts in any other product, tool, or service — including the Agent SDK — is not permitted and constitutes a violation of the Consumer Terms of Service.


Confidently incorrect, personal usage of Agent SDK is powered by logging into Claude Code: you are not logging into the SDK (or your own application).

What's not allowed is offering OAuth authentication in your own product built with the SDK: https://x.com/trq212/status/2024212380142752025?s=20


I agree, it'd actually be great if they did give maybe $5 or $10 worth of API tokens per month to max subscribers, since they're likely to be the most likely to actually build stuff that uses the Claude APIs.

I built a quick thing to download YouTube videos and transcribe them using with whisper, but it kind of feels clunky to summarize them using the claude CLI, even though that works.


just ran into this myself. I got Claude Code to build a tool that calls Claude for <stuff>. Now I have to create a console account and do the API thing and it sucks balls.

> not someone else's for their usage in your product.

what if the "product" is a setup of documents that concisely describe the product so that a coding agent can reliable produce it correctly. Then the install process becomes "agent, write and host this application for the user's personal use on their computer". Now all software is for personal use only. Companies released these things and, like Frankenstein, there's a strong possibility they will turn on their creators.


That example is in the article, but typeset differently.

The example wasn't in the essay when he wrote the comment :) I just added it thanks to the helpful feedback

Yes, and also 325 million subscribers for all of Google, not just YouTube.


Was there a brouhaha with OpenClaw or was that with OpenCode?


It was with OpenCode, but a LOT of the commentariat is insisting that running OpenClaw through subscription creds instead of API is out of TOS and will get you banhammered.


I think you’re right and it was OpenCode. The semantic collisions are going to becpme more of a problem in the coming Cambrian explosion of software


How do you draw that conclusion? If Anthropic wants to offer a service at below cost, they seem a lot more justified in restricting how and where they subsidize usage.


Yeah fair, I could've chosen better words. My conclusion is: "I don't want to pay for that", not "they shouldn't be able to do that".


Tonight we are all Claude Code, Anthropic's official CLI for Claude.


But if one were to write tools that were "abi-compatible" with Claude Code's, could you see similar performance with a custom agent? And if so - is Cursor not doing just that?


Part of that is likely that Claude Code tools keep changing a little. Imitating them is chasing a moving target.


Another drawback could be that package manager lockfile schemas are optimized for performance[0]. I wouldn't appreciate seeing slower install times by default - especially if the lockfile could be converted with other tooling.

[0]: https://bun.com/blog/behind-the-scenes-of-bun-install#optimi...


I wish Spotify welcomed or collaborated with these archival initiatives. Anna's Archive does not compete with Spotify in any way.


> I wish Spotify welcomed or collaborated with these archival initiatives.

Spotify licenses the music in their library under specific terms. They don't own it. They can't just decide to give out freely on their own terms.

> Anna's Archive does not compete with Spotify in any way.

I think HN often underestimates the breadth of casual piracy among the general public who want to avoid paying $10/month for a service. There are already numerous tools to stream TV shows and movies from torrents on demand. I have no doubt the same will appear for a giant archive of Spotify music. A lot of people will jump at any chance to cancel their Spotify subscription if they can get close to the same access for free.


I doubt such a tool would be allowed in the major mobile app stores. The library of music isn't the product.


Stremio is on the App Store and can be used with a debrid service.


They're all for the rules, now.

How many people remember how Spotify... uhhh... "seeded" its music database at the start? (There's a hint in my question.)


also: "Musicians might note that 87% of tracks will now receive the same payment from Anna’s Archive as they do from Spotify: zero."

https://dadadrummer.substack.com/p/anti-copyright-extremists


I really despise Spotify's payout algorithm too, since you mention it.

For the longest time I was a big Tidal fan. Still am. But I feel their financials show writing on the wall for their future. But one of the reasons for that appreciation on my part was that they 1) paid a lot more, per stream, to artists (sometimes, 8-10x more than Spotify's nominal purported royalties), and 2) they didn't have an algorithm for payout that heavily favored the 800lb artists in the room over the smaller, struggling acts.


Fuck those licensing terms. They are the exact reason I cant make a Soundcloud notification bot for discord that is within the rules of the ToS. I sent them an email asking for an API key and basically got told no, license holders rule our world.


I am flabbergasted by the comments here, Spotify started with pirated music and now invests in the military.

https://torrentfreak.com/how-the-pirate-bay-helped-spotify-b...

And

https://djmag.com/news/spotifys-daniel-ek-leads-eu600-millio...


@thenthenthen Spotify doesn’t, its founder who has now moved on is investing.


It is actually a good thing to invest in blowing up fascists, especially in the context of an ongoing land invasion.


If the fascists don't blow up the anti-fascists first.

An eye for an eye, leaves us all blind.


Yes, of course, because as we all know:

1. Appeasement was a big success.

2. Fascists are known for having balanced personalities that at some point have enough and don't want more.


It's probably up to the publishers, not them.

I buy my music, but at the same time I respect that Spotify is a bit more unified than any of the 100 video streaming services that don't have the one thing I want to watch.


Anna's archive offers to share their data for AI training (in exchange for donations), so that's certainly something the record labels want control of. https://annas-archive.org/llm


It's also probably something the artists themselves was control of as well


Spotify's (and the other huge streamers) main selling points are its catalogue, it's recommendations/auto playlists. Other features like steaming quality, UI, and network effects are also at play.

Even the metadata is a huge proprietary data dump. Not sure how you think apple, Google, Amazon or an upstart budget streaming service couldn't use this to better compete against Spotify.


I don't know whether Spotify could agree to provide its entire library of music to an archive for Torrenting by anyone.

Its not just about Spotify, but the record labels and the artists themselves.

For a community that usually wants to allow artists control over their music, or better yet people control over their own information in general. It surprises me that people are now okay with music being scraped and freely put online.


I don't think music producer would agree to that. Spotify would likely lose contracts even if they simply opted for silence.


Simply sharing metadata, related artists, genres, etc would create a pretty interesting ecosystem[1].

[1]: https://everynoise.com/


Every Noise was created by a former Spotify employee.


He's a former Spotify employee now, but he was a Spotify employee when he made it. I think it hasn't been updated since he lost his data access.

I have a lot of respect for Glenn McDonald for spam fighting all these years on Spotify, but we can go better than PCA for mapping music these days. Any neural embedding model is going to produce more meaningful axes. In fact Spotify had an intern who did just that, just before the launch of Discover Weekly: Sander Dieleman. Along with Aäron van den Oord he was snapped up by Deepmind after their Spotify internship. Those two guys were (and are) wildly good at what they do.


Not even in the “providing a way to get music” way?


A big database that contains every song is pretty different from a recommendation system, web streaming, playlists, etc. Someone could use the dump to create something like that ofc, but the database itself isn't really the interesting thing Spotify offers.


True, but feature parity isn’t required for competition. Plenty of subscribers will just be listening to what they know they want to listen to, and for them a giant DB of music is absolutely sufficient.


To me it is the “in any way” at the end. I can’t possibly understand the blind desire to distort reality by using mere words.


Maybe I was too hyperbolic, but when I read the original Anna's Archive announcement post, I appreciated their dedication to archiving content that may be lost one day. They called the effort "Backing up Spotify" and emphasized the good that opening the data could do. It's not about enabling piracy.

Following Anna's logic, I was calling on Spotify to stop "investigating" archivists. Spotify could instead be engaging constructively here, with Anna's Archive, Internet Archive, or other groups.


I was looking for a song recently and can't find it. The artist was banned from YouTube and looks like they took their album off Spotify. An archive like this is good for preserving stuff from smaller artists like that


It is, should the artist agree to have their music put online for you to access for free


They can't, their overlords would be very unhappy with it. Record industries are heavy in on DRM.


Are they really? Nearly every song is uploaded by it's creator to YouTube which has no DRM at all...


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