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> It links to a .so file which reads the executable header, allocates memory, loads the program, gets it ready to run, and starts it. The program loader runs in user space and is unprivileged. This is probably the right way to do it.

aiui this is what exec does, the problem outlined here is the split between process creation (expensive, kernel space, has to be done each time even if spawning the same process "template" repeatedly) and loading (cheap and in userspace).


Genuinely curious - what third party closed source dependencies are they using? Like what is their purpose?

Audio subsystems (wwise, fmod).

Physics subsystems (havok, ISI).

Procedural systems (Gaea, Houdini)

Vegetation (Speedtree)

VFX subsystems (Nvidia Gameworks)

First party SDKs (Sony Playstation, Microsoft NDK, Horizon/Quest).

Pathfinding (Kytheria, Mercuna)

Cutscenes/Videos (Bink)

UI (Rive, Neosis)

Networking (Photon, Coherence)

Theres… thousands more, if you’d like me to continue.


On the web backend?

The backend isn’t web technologies.

I mean it absolutely is, but that's not an answer to the question.

Of the 7 AAA games I’ve been part of making, not a single one used HTTP (well, not as a primary driver of anything), HTML, CSS or anything that could be construed as a “web technology” so, what are you talking about please?

s/web/networked computers/g

What I'm saying is you have programs running on user machines, and programs running on your machines. There's an interface between those two over a network. There's a problem that consumers face today where they pay to play games that are not functional without data flowing over that interface.

There's a claim that implementing the backend side of that interface is so complex and impossible or too difficult/time consuming/etc to design in a way without 3rd party dependencies.

I'm asking: what are those 3rd party libraries doing? And why can't you design server APIs and client code in a way to provide a different backend if consumers need to do it themselves when you stop supporting the game?


idk, lets use things you know.

Why do you use Ruby on Rails, why not rewrite it so you can release it without relyig on that?


I'm not interested in hypotheticals. In AAA games that you have worked on, concretely what 3rd party code did your servers rely on that would prevent you from distributing either the server itself or sufficient description of the servers' behavior to allow a reimplementation?

And even if we're talking hypotheticals: stupid example. I haven't worked on a backend where the actual server infrastructure wasn't open source, trivial to open source because it was first party, or irrelevant because the only thing that matters would be the API and protocols, which again, trivial to make open.


I don’t care.

Get a job in industry and see for yourself.

I’m not going to break confidentially to sate your ignorance.


I'm actively trying to remove my own ignorance of the domain which is why I posed the question! You're not breaking confidentiality by saying "I need X to solve Y problem which is offered by Z and we can't expose even the application layer interfaces." Right now it sounds like you don't have an answer, or even understand the question.

Getting all defensive and not answering it doesn't really help your industry's case here.


So when you told me that games use web tech on the backend, that was you getting rid of your ignorance?

Ok, lets talk about the kinds of things we need.

Networks have latency, so we need to smooth/correct for that.

Our connections need to be authenticated, so we need middleware to handle tokens, because we don’t hand-roll that. On a binary protocol.

Our physics engines are complicated: we don’t usually write our own from scratch; and the server needs physics to simulate the world.

Shall I continue?


Web servers, message brokers, physics engines, anti cheat, fraud detection, flood mitigation, ranking systems, chat moderation, match making systems. There are thousands of possible components which may have been licensed in any given game server system. In some cases the entire game engine runs on the server.

I guess what surprises me here is how much of this is 3p code that couldn't possibly be distributed. Like why would you not be using an open source web server, or widely available message broker? Things like chat moderation/match making/anti cheat/etc seem like add on services that would be implemented per game (well, maybe not match making) and aren't relevant to the problem that the "stop killing games" people are trying to solve.

Frankly it's none of your business why, and it's completely irrelevant. The fact is that this 3p code exists and this law needs to account for it or it's unworkable.

This is kind of needless aggression that doesn't help non domain experts understand.

I've worked on a lot of complicated and deeply optimized networked applications. They're almost all closed source. I know exactly how I would design a system to support these kinds of initiatives. What I'm curious about is why that's impossible for game developers, because either I'm missing something, or game developers are just bad at software design.


>either I'm missing something, or game developers are just bad at software design

Usually the latter, not just game devs themselves, but also infrastructure devs.


A very large percentage of multiplayer games keep the backend in an MS SQL or Oracle cluster.

Sure but you don't link in Oracle/MS's database cluster orchestrators to your server, right?

THat really depends on how you define "the server",doesn't it? The intent of the bill seems to be a thing that actually play that game.

The "server" being the computer program not running on a user device. The intent of the initiative is to allow people to substitute or replace that program to allow the game to continue to function even if the original publisher/developer disables access to it.

It's pretty obvious to me as a gamer and engineer what the intent and design constraints are here, so I'm just wondering what makes this seem impossible?


I'm as big of a skeptic on these AI companies and question deeply the long term value of data center buildout as a land use policy in the communities where they're being built. But:

> So let me ask the question directly: if AI data centers are such a tremendous benefit to communities, why are so many of them being built without meaningful community input?

Because of this (emphasis mine):

> They’re watching their utility bills climb, finding sick animals they can’t explain, and worrying about the long-term impacts on their health and property values

How are you supposed to have reasonable discussion about land use, economic impacts, zoning, etc when you're getting flooded with input from crockpots?


Can you say with absolute certainty that sick animals and long term impacts on their health are not caused by data centers? Certainly we have long list of examples where industrial activity contaminated areas with little oversight and it did kill animals and cause long-term impacts on health. I think you're saying that data centers do not pollute in a way that would cause sick animals or long-term impacts on health, but I don't think that can be stated confidently.

So this might be controversial and I'm unable to phrase it better, but you can't always engage in good faith to address claims when the claimant themselves are incapable of engaging in good faith to make them.

I could be convinced on negative environmental impact of data centers in a few ways. I could believe there's additional strain on water purification infrastructure if the open loop cooling systems are using additives and creating additional volume of water that existing treatment plants weren't designed to handle. I could believe that additional power demand and on-site generators using fossil fuels could create pollution where it didn't exist before. I could believe that in a rush to build quicker, construction crews take shortcuts.

Basically all industrial activity on this planet creates waste that can harm people. That's why we create zones for it away from residences, and why land closer to it is cheaper.

This is all stuff you can engage with good faith. The problem is these are not the claims that the crazy people are making, and not the ones it sounds like the author of TFA is bothering to investigate. There's a large group of people that will believe "thing bad, thing hurt" with zero evidence besides vibes, and you can't meet with psychosis on shared ground.


As you wrote it, it really reads as "everybody who says datacenters have health impacts is a crackpot" but I think your intent was "some people who say datacenters have health impacts are crackpots".

Bills are not hard to read. Especially the closer to local government you get. The problem is that bills are worth the paper they're written on until courts affirm what the language means in the context of the legal system.

Bills are not hard to read because they are complex, but because they are poorly written. They generally contain lots of comma-separated lists in sentences, as well as nested conditional clauses.

If they were written in a structured format instead of in prose (think nested bullet points, conditional blocks like a programming language, etc.) then they'd be _significantly_ easier to understand.


It makes me sad to read someone rejecting humanity.

Painting something new with great potential as negative and "the enemy" - this is truly the essence of humanity. </snark-but-with-a-kernel-of-truth>

If the parent commenter enjoys working with LLMs, then just let them. This doesn't make them inhumane, nor does it make you less of a human.


Investors would never give billions of dollars to liars

Idk if anyone cares about lying at this point anymore, this is just placing bets on the AI, and its a lot easier to bet when its someone else's money.

It feels like the problem are the SAT prep courses' existence then

Pullman, IL was the model of a company town and started off as a reasonable (if paternalistic) approach to providing good housing and services to your employees.

Unsurprisingly, it did not last.


AI companies/users are filled with liars and grifters, so any numbers/outlook they report should be highly suspect.

I must admit that I am going to find it fascinating when we hit the point where it becomes nearly impossible to deny the efficacy of these tools. I have straight up had people, even in real life, suggest that I'm lying about my productivity gains or what I'm able to accomplish with them.

Like, I understand the reasonable arguments against (I even agree with a few), but it's clear that some people have fully inserted their head into the sand and just don't want to believe any of this could be true. Which will be harsh, since I think getting hit with this train all at once in the future is going to be a rougher ride than a slower coming-to-terms-with, even if the result is one we're unhappy with.


I don't deny their efficacy, I'm saying that there's a massive crop of grifters and liars building them and using them.

What is the motivation for us users to lie about our experiences? It's to the degree now that people simply refuse to believe that I'm honestly describing my experiences with these tools?

I understand the motivations for the labs to lie, but what do you think mine is?


Why do you deliberately misread my comments? I am not talking about your "experience."

In the meanwhile, Google AI search still says the next year after 2026 will be 2028.

Ok? Then don't use AI to do arithmetic. It's not their strong suit.

Oh, basic counting is now arithmetic? But I was told they were superintelligent and were going to cause an apocalypse because they can do pretty much everything ? Somehow because they can excrement a lot of text, we were told they can do everything else too?

> Oh, basic counting is now arithmetic?

Ye- yes? It's addition by 1.


Google's "AI overviews" have been utter junk pretty much consistently since they launched the feature.

No it doesn't, at least not for me.

There's a saying "the fish stinks from the head".

Finders fees aren't nefarious

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