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Do you mean the early-2010s era style? Sure that one was quite ugly.

The current style on https://www.openstreetmap.org/ basically looks the same as I remember it in ~2010, and is quite ugly compared to Apple Maps and even new google maps.

That's very subjective, I find the Google style barely usable compared to OSM carto. No experience with Apple.

Or even something like OrganicMaps which runs on OSM data

No, it does not look the same as in 2010. Your memory is failing you.

He's talking about the OpenMapTiles vector tiles schema.

How does it compare to e.g. fusion-lang? Does anyone actually use any of the "universal languages" in production?

Agree! Outsiders sadly wouldn't have experienced this first-hand. The thing is, PR acceptance criteria aren't even firm. If imagico after a long back-and-forth decides he doesn't like it, then too bad for the prospective contributor.

A similar situation holds with openstreetmap-website. Sadly currently barely anyone uses Rails...


I wouldn't compare osm-website and osm-carto at all. The commit logs are very different.

openstreetmap-website: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/commi... . Numerous commits most days.

openstreetmap-carto: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commits . So far in 2024; one small regression fixed, one niche bit of tagging added to an existing style, some largely pointless code style tidying. That's it.


Sure, you're right - I haven't checked osm-carto in a while. Nonetheless, the barrier to contributing to osm-website is too high and the maintainers also not welcoming. TomH is infamous for his comments that brush off even OSMF board members. The openstreetmap-website is due for improvements, but the same thing applies - maintainers are very finicky and even worse, one of them is abrasive as hell.

Elsewhere in the comments it was pointed out about hostility to experimentation, the same applies to openstreetmap-website. There are many things that could be tried on the front-end, but in the eyes of TomH you need to be perfect at the first shot, based on his understanding of the situation.

Somebody pointed out that openstreetmap-website contributions pace curiously picked up after the NorthCrab's blogs detailing his unofficial and unsolicited Python rewrite, OpenStreetMap NG. Honestly even if he's somewhat cringe at times, he's still more adaptive than TomH and co. E.g. people pointed out that Mongo is fauxpen source so he duly rewrote the DB part in Postgres.


Honestly even reading his prior blog post and this together, his own outline of his position made me feel there was more to it. Like the way I read it, they had a process of open contribution, and then they closed it down, partly at the author's suggestion, and then those contributors who felt the process was too onerous because of pushback against perceived euro-centrism of their contributions went and made their own projects.... which were more succesful for Europe and North America.

Sounds like open source working correctly. If someone doesn’t agree they can always fork the project and aim for their own direction.

Absolutely possible; that's not the problem here.

The deeper problem is that Carto gets a free ride on the website as the incumbent house style. You can fork it, but doesn't make it the default style shown on openstreetmap.org. You could fork it, get popular community support, and still get nowhere except for wasting a lot of effort, because displacing Carto takes a lot of political manoeuvring as well as server resources for hosting the default style (which are not insignificant).

If it was a matter of just forking it, and have the openstreetmap.org website maintainer pick it up if it proved more popular than that would be that, but given the fact that the one other Carto maintainer who seems semi-active is also a member of the OpenStreetMap operations working group (i.e., server resources), spending any effort on a fork with the goal to displace Carto seems pointless at this point in time. I prefer to spend my resources on just making the map better.

Some people justly pick up their crayons and go make a nice thing elsewhere (like the Americana style), or contribute to the styles used by popular apps. For now part of the community just gave up on Carto and is waiting to see how developments for the new vector style will pan out.


And as always, forking might solve a specific issue, but creates so many new ones that it isn't such a clearcut and obvious or even sensible solution.

Sorry, I don't buy this. The vandalism only persisted in the rendered map tiles due to CDN caching. Actual map data (which is input to the geocoding) was reverted very quickly by the DWG (moderators).

This is also possibly a violation of Tile Usage Policy, you're not supposed to use OSM infrastructure in volume. OSM data is free, but hosting not so. Either self-host or use other providers.


How does it compare to Grafana?

Some news outlets A/B test their headlines.

I thought "one of" is a weasel qualifier here?

Indeed, but it still unconsciously invites controversy (in my opinion) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, they want to sidestep community who was less than happy e.g. with a FB's AI road import in Thailand (described elsewhere on HN).

TBH Bluetooth is useful for Xiaomi e-paper clock-thermometers which can't be set without a Mi Home app... smh

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