Great article and conversation. The important factor for average US undergrad student not opting for graduate school is definitely due to the astronomical loans they accumulate during undergrad years.
I simply couldn't for the life of me comprehend why majority of US undergrads are OK taking on such a huge amount liability and jeopardizing their future prospect? It perhaps could be because "Everyone is doing it" or because "There are no other avenues.." I believe the system is setup in such a way that it's unavoidable and unfair to the students in the name of getting an "education".
Here is a different path/perspective.
I came to the US from one of the poor south Asian countries at 18 to do my undergrad despite my parents telling me to go for my graduate school in the early 2000s. For grad school you don't pay tuition and you are paid for your expenses too working on a research or as a TA. I said to myself, US is the land of opportunity, possibilities are limitless, go early and figure out the specifics later. I was very young so yeah "let's do it" attitude prevailed. My parents were not wealthy either but they had assets enough to cough up tuition fees. I intentionally selected a small public university in the middle of nowhere that offered partial scholarship (more on this later). My tuition fees per year was 9k after scholarship if I remember correctly.
After I landed, I registered for 15- 18 credits per semester and also took a job part time and that was enough to cover my living expenses and then some. I believe poverty or coming from a background of family without a lot of means or a support system to fallback on is a great motivating factor to not accumulate any debt. I had to hustle pretty much throughout my undergrad years, if I wasn't in a class, I'd be in the library doing assignment and if I wasn't in the library I'd be at my job. I wasn't at a frat house partying or playing sports or joining meetup groups or doing the normal things any regular undergrad students would do. I consider myself an average student too, nothing close to the best and the brightest but managed to maintain a 3.7 GPA and graduated with a Computer Science degree.
In my last semester, I did two internships (Summer/Fall) in small companies because when I went to couple of job fairs just to check it out, I noticed that companies really wanted to see some hands on experience. I couldn't believe they would pay for internship too and better than my part time job. I worked out a deal with my professor to allow me to work in my final semester at a local company which counted towards a seminar credit too.
When I graduated, I had 0 debt, three job offers from mid size companies starting at 50k - 65K in a mid size market (not Silicon Valley). My colleges at work include Ivy League graduates along with those from top private/public colleges that cost 30k - 80k per year in tuition and they were all in student debt. So in hindsight, I think I made a good choice going to a middle of a nowhere school. It really made no different in getting a Job or acquiring skills. Sure I didn't have a brand recognition but I could hold my own during the the interviews to get offers.
Once again, I'm not the smartest guy but I had strong determination not ask my parents for money on take on loans. Whatever, they offered me initially for tuition, I paid back after I started working full time and then some. Someone pointed out about culture in Asian family where parents do anything they can to invest in their Child's education and that's because it's what they believe is a way to a better life.
After being in the industry for couple of years, I wanted to increase my depth/breadth of knowledge in my field so I found a Masters program that I could pursue part time (nights/weekend). I got my new employer to pony up half of the tuition (I tried for full tuition reimbursemnt) as well which I required to accept their job offer. Total cost was $20k tuition for 3 years at a so called "top 20 nationally ranked engineering school." I could care less about the ranking...
By 27 I had both undergrad/masters and 5+ years of experience in the industry. Once again I had no debt.
I believe the system is setup in a such a way that it's so easy to take on a huge loans for the majority of population without fully understanding the implications for the future. I mean kids are 18. It feels as if it's almost similar to using one credit card to pay for the minimum payment of another credit card.
Also cost of education keep on going higher and higher. I think anytime government gets involved the price balloons astronomically. Take a look here https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/price-changes-in-consumer... #1 is college tuition followed by Medicare and child care.
I think 20 years from now, it really wouldn't matter which school you go to as the market is going to put higher emphasis on, what you have done or can do (skill wise) as opposed to which school you go to. Until then us US tax payers are going to foot the bill for all these student loans that are eventually going to blow up like the housing bubble.
So I leave you with some food thought, if a kid from a very poor country can come to the US with little to no means but dedicated enough not take any loans to pursue higher education and pursue the American dream, I think it should be far more easier to native US born students.
Thanks for the feedback. We've tried somewhat close to #3, #4 and #5 before to no avail. I often have to be an audience of unsolicited outbursts of co-founders past and ongoing accomplishments. Here is an example, "I did X and it resulted in Y which is very very important and amazing, what have you done?" or "If I hadn't done that for the company we wouldn't be where we are now. You should appreciate that more." along those lines in addition to constant scrutiny on how things needs to be done exactly the way they want it (no other way). We each have things to accomplish week over week and it's all tracked in Jira and visible to both of us so there is no need for me to announce these randomly.
I've have 10 years worth of professional experience at a big shop having people work below and above me but I've never experience someone behave in such a way or control every part of the business in a way it just ins't necessary. Perhaps they no longer need my contribution and want to create such atmosphere so I can walk away?
I'm embarrassed to be complaining about this on the internet rather than going and talking about this to resolve conflicts like and adult like you said but having tried multiple times it just isn't working out. Almost feels like the way author describes his experience here https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/18/co-founder-conflict/
I get your point that focusing on the bigger future is far better than figuring out who gets to keep what. But what if you no longer enjoy each others company and can't deal with the environment? I'm looking to move on but don't want all the time and effort I've put in to go in vain either.
I'm thinking of notifying that I'm stepping down and come to terms regarding equity that we both feel is fair? Perhaps, I can get compensated at an on going basis if not lump sum? What if I'm told no to any equity or comp what are the options that folks have used before?
Honestly, if you're leaving, the amount of equity that is equitable is probably pretty low for the same reasons that what your cofounder did in the past does not deserve super-sized slice of the pie: To a first approximation all the work is still in the future and a person who leaves is not going to be contributing to it.
Or to put it another way, the time and effort each of you has spent is a sunk cost not a future value. And anyway, a passive owner who is paid a large share of future revenues is highly demotivating for those who stay -- I mean how would you feel paying 45% to your cofounder if they were the one leaving and you were the one staying.
Business partnerships are a lot like marriages with the business being the child and shared property. Splits are often messy and this looks like one and when splits are messy pretty much everyone loses.
As an aside, working at a big company is usually poor preparation for working at a small one. Nobody at a small company has to be on their good behavior. There's no HR department to handle things. And the owners have to take the trash out to the dumpster.
So years ago, when I was going through a somewhat similar business breakup, I decided that it was best to get on with life and stop fighting with my former partners. Part of the problem was all of us lacked business experience. They were being assholes. I was being an asshole right back. Then I decided to stop and just get on with my life. It's been nearly twenty years and I don't regret that decision or the dollars I left on the table. Not for a minute.
Well, if you are thinking of moving on and he won't offer you any compensation, you probably have leverage. Did you actually sign anything assigning the IP you created to the company? If not, you're in a good position to demand compensation, as he'll lack clear title over the company's IP. Bad position for him to be in.
I can't disagree with that. But there are ways to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation.
I've seen many situations like this and I didn't want MakeThingsWork to feel like he has no leverage here. He probably does. That will help if he wants to negotiate a resolution.
I simply couldn't for the life of me comprehend why majority of US undergrads are OK taking on such a huge amount liability and jeopardizing their future prospect? It perhaps could be because "Everyone is doing it" or because "There are no other avenues.." I believe the system is setup in such a way that it's unavoidable and unfair to the students in the name of getting an "education".
Here is a different path/perspective.
I came to the US from one of the poor south Asian countries at 18 to do my undergrad despite my parents telling me to go for my graduate school in the early 2000s. For grad school you don't pay tuition and you are paid for your expenses too working on a research or as a TA. I said to myself, US is the land of opportunity, possibilities are limitless, go early and figure out the specifics later. I was very young so yeah "let's do it" attitude prevailed. My parents were not wealthy either but they had assets enough to cough up tuition fees. I intentionally selected a small public university in the middle of nowhere that offered partial scholarship (more on this later). My tuition fees per year was 9k after scholarship if I remember correctly.
After I landed, I registered for 15- 18 credits per semester and also took a job part time and that was enough to cover my living expenses and then some. I believe poverty or coming from a background of family without a lot of means or a support system to fallback on is a great motivating factor to not accumulate any debt. I had to hustle pretty much throughout my undergrad years, if I wasn't in a class, I'd be in the library doing assignment and if I wasn't in the library I'd be at my job. I wasn't at a frat house partying or playing sports or joining meetup groups or doing the normal things any regular undergrad students would do. I consider myself an average student too, nothing close to the best and the brightest but managed to maintain a 3.7 GPA and graduated with a Computer Science degree.
In my last semester, I did two internships (Summer/Fall) in small companies because when I went to couple of job fairs just to check it out, I noticed that companies really wanted to see some hands on experience. I couldn't believe they would pay for internship too and better than my part time job. I worked out a deal with my professor to allow me to work in my final semester at a local company which counted towards a seminar credit too.
When I graduated, I had 0 debt, three job offers from mid size companies starting at 50k - 65K in a mid size market (not Silicon Valley). My colleges at work include Ivy League graduates along with those from top private/public colleges that cost 30k - 80k per year in tuition and they were all in student debt. So in hindsight, I think I made a good choice going to a middle of a nowhere school. It really made no different in getting a Job or acquiring skills. Sure I didn't have a brand recognition but I could hold my own during the the interviews to get offers.
Once again, I'm not the smartest guy but I had strong determination not ask my parents for money on take on loans. Whatever, they offered me initially for tuition, I paid back after I started working full time and then some. Someone pointed out about culture in Asian family where parents do anything they can to invest in their Child's education and that's because it's what they believe is a way to a better life.
After being in the industry for couple of years, I wanted to increase my depth/breadth of knowledge in my field so I found a Masters program that I could pursue part time (nights/weekend). I got my new employer to pony up half of the tuition (I tried for full tuition reimbursemnt) as well which I required to accept their job offer. Total cost was $20k tuition for 3 years at a so called "top 20 nationally ranked engineering school." I could care less about the ranking...
By 27 I had both undergrad/masters and 5+ years of experience in the industry. Once again I had no debt.
I believe the system is setup in a such a way that it's so easy to take on a huge loans for the majority of population without fully understanding the implications for the future. I mean kids are 18. It feels as if it's almost similar to using one credit card to pay for the minimum payment of another credit card.
Also cost of education keep on going higher and higher. I think anytime government gets involved the price balloons astronomically. Take a look here https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/price-changes-in-consumer... #1 is college tuition followed by Medicare and child care.
I think 20 years from now, it really wouldn't matter which school you go to as the market is going to put higher emphasis on, what you have done or can do (skill wise) as opposed to which school you go to. Until then us US tax payers are going to foot the bill for all these student loans that are eventually going to blow up like the housing bubble.
So I leave you with some food thought, if a kid from a very poor country can come to the US with little to no means but dedicated enough not take any loans to pursue higher education and pursue the American dream, I think it should be far more easier to native US born students.