GingerBill and the Odin community put tremendous effort into making sure that the Odin compiler ships with "batteries included". You get base, core and vendor library collection that cover almost everything a developer would need to the point that you can argue that you don't need a package manager for Odin.
I'm aware, I've been following Odin for a few years. I wasn't saying that in judgement. I like Odin and I generally like Ginger Bill's approach to things.
That being said it's way to early to say it "never became an issue". Odin is still small and not well established. If/when it starts to grow in popularity someone is going to develop a solution eventually. It's impossible for the language to offer EVERYTHING people could need, and developers love package managers.
All the things you demanded require a significant amount of financial support to both create and maintain, and that is where Odin falls short. If you really do need all those libraries first thing in the morning, then forget about the language; it's out of your hands. You will always be at the mercy of the industry, and you will be forced to pick and use whatever language the majority of the industry is using while the industry keeps tailoring the majorly adapted languages to do things the languages weren't designed for in the first place.
Also, all the libraries you demanded have almost nothing to do with the language itself. Odin, as a solo project, lacks both the financial backing and the cult-like obsessive adoption within its community-both of which are essential for breaking into the industry and reaching the mainstream status. It's the industry's adaptability and the community's enthusiasm that determine how many new libraries will emerge for a programming language. Unlike modern languages like Rust and Zig, which have their respective foundation organizations that employ and pay several full-time developers, languages like Odin and C3 that stripped-down complexity and subjectively annoying features got no serious fancy features to market to the target consumers, making it hard for them to gain any exponential momentum. So, give the current state of things, we can certainly say that Odin will not provide any of those libraries any time soon.
Besides, the Odin developers are perfectly fine using libraries written in other languages, whether Rust, C, or anything else. If a library in another language works and will get the job done, re-writing it in Odin is logically pointless for getting the job done. The only people who seem to have an issue with Odin's ecosystem are backend developers. Low-level systems programmers and graphics developers have their needs well met(there are no built-in green threads or fibers but there is support for SIMD and all major graphics API bindings). Networking requires stable, secure maintenance, so unless someone from the community steps up to create and maintain an HTTP/3 or QUIC implementation, there will never be native HTTP/3 support in Odin. The same applies to Aerospike, YAML, JPEG XL, Slint, and everything else. Gotta see how things will turn out.
He's linking a source specifically so that other people don't have to do that. If we have to go searching for our own sources there wasn't any point submitting the comment; the idea is to look at what was linked and talk about it.
I see.
If you are not satisfied with the shared source or think the video is edited to project a certain kind of perspective with ulterior motive, feel free to look further into it before completely discarding it was what I meant.
searching Yalda Hakim, Khawaja Asif full interview might point you in the right direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir8pJbKE37U
And with the benefit of more context it is pretty clear he wasn't admitting to anything - the interview started with him condemning terrorism and the quotes in question was more him pointing out [0] that everyone has been funding terrorist groups in his part of the world and he thinks Pakistan has suffered for it.
Pakistan might be involved in this one, they might not be. I don't know. But that clip isn't evidence either way. He's quite insistent that Pakistan wasn't involved in the topical attacks. And indeed that the attacks may not have happened at all. He can't be admitting responsibility to something that he doesn't believe has happened done by groups he claims don't exist.
[0] Add some allowance for English apparently not being his native language - he was reiterating points from earlier in the interview.
>He's quite insistent that Pakistan wasn't involved in the topical attacks.
Yes, just like how Pakistan was insistent about their involvement in sheltering Bin Laden. I don't understand why you expect any representative of a nation to confess explicitly to their crimes themselves but things like that just don't happen. Confession to their indirect involvement is the leading clue to majority of their actions and further investigation that will never be disclosed to public can only dig the truth.
>And indeed that the attacks may not have happened at all
that is very funny. That attack did happen and the attackers did send a message mentioning the name "Modi" to one of the survivors they spared. The tourists were stripped first to verify if they're circumcised and were shot immediately thereafter. I won't share further details but I ensure you, it really did happen and feel free to discard this as misinformation or dig further into it yourself.
Why would they? Even the USA never admits their direct involvement straight away so its delusional of you to be expecting something like that.
If Pakistan is the kind of nation to confess, peace would have been established long back.
It sounds like you agree with me that the defense minister did not say what the original commenter claimed he said, so I’m not sure what you’re calling me delusional about.
No, its not. They are focused on introducing ELM on the backend as well. ELM isn't backed by big corpos like Rust and Go do so their way of operation will differ by a huge margin than those two langs, especially in terms of marketing so its inaccurate to judge that its dead just due to the inactivity.
Dead means different things to different people, but there is no way in hell I'd start a new project using a niche language that hasn't been updated in almost a year.
I would though. ELM has a very simple, straight forward syntax and everything revolves around the ELM architecture, which makes the whole thing very intuitive. I believe a statically typed and functional language will do just fine without any update for years as long as the initial implementation is done right. Unless there is a need to add some new feature, there is not point in updating the language if all the essentials were well implemented already. ELM compiles to JS and not to a native architecture. It'd be inappropriate to view ELM like one would view languages like C or any that uses LLVM as its backend.
It has been dead for years and years. I had an interest in learning and using Elm several years ago, but the bus factor of 1 told me it was dead on arrival.
> I was very excited for this interview but felt like Evan really didn’t say much of substance and largely avoided the interesting questions
>> It was a total pity party, dude acts like he invented bottled water
>>> Except, no, he doesn't act like that. He did invent something new, though, that is valuable to a lot of people. In spite of this he's still humble; outside of jealousy I'm not sure how you can justify saying he's acting like that. Why did you watch this video? To pick on Evan or Elm?
>>>> And to your insidious question, I reject the premise as neither of your hateful canned options for me fit the bill. You can spend your days defending people you don’t know, I will spend mine critiquing publicly what is obvious: Even thought he’d end up like Van Rossum or Dahl but he forgot the part where your creation brings something new to market—he only brought a new way of creating something that was already in the market (web applications). When will people get it through their skulls that can’t monetize anything if you’re unwilling to let others be involved in your work aside from throwing money at you. It’s completely ridiculous and naive and he’s butt hurt over this realization.
Another thread:
> For my part, the Elm ship has mostly sailed. I can't ignore the fact that the bdfl disappeared for multiple years without notice. That's not how trust is built.
>> i mean did Elm cease to be a perfectly usable language in the interim? what part of the FOSS social contract made you think he was obligated to provide notice?
>>> No one is "obligated" to do anything. I'm not obligated to put in effort to keep in contact with my friends and family, but if I don't I also can't be mad if our relationships drift apart. No, Evan isn't obligated to do anything with Elm that he doesn't want to do, but we also shouldn't be surprised if people question the suitability of a language, if the BDFL just up and disappears. A language isn't a small, one or two file, library that I can just copy paste and fix a bug, if the maintainer isn't reacting to issues or accepting pull requests. And it certainly isn't something that I want to take over the full burden of maintaining. So I need to know that I can, at the very least, work with the maintainers to fix issues as they come up. The view on open source is also extremely negative. Evan was offered a lot of chances to have other people come in and to build a strong core team for Elm. And there are many open source projects (including languages), that operate very successfully around that model and even manage to rotate people out, if they become exhausted with the project. So while I in no way condone attacking Evan directly, it's also fair to acknowledge that there are very good reasons people aren't investing into Elm for their next big project.
This sort of community is part of why I left Elm too, supporters seem to have an immediate knee jerk reaction to any sort of criticism and literally seem to treat Evan as some sort of messiah figure, unreasonable things like, "well, it never said anywhere that people have to give notice" if they're going to have radio silence for 5+ years, like, yeah, but it'd be a good faith effort if they did.
oh no. At this point, we just need something that doesn't use the stupid combo of two languages(one markup and one style sheet) for UI and one(totally single threaded) for UX that allows people to share and view simple text and media to one another. Maybe then we can rid ourselves from constraints like having to stick to JS or a Virtual Machine like V8 while settling on poor implementations like WebGL and Canvas. WebGPU is still not a thing and it probably won't be anytime soon.
A new web browser or another JS runtime won't be the solution to the current mayhem. What could actually be helpful is an alternative to the "web browser" that operates on an entirely different stack than the currently JIT overdosed JS engines. But since everybody is well accustomed to and excited about improvements within the current madness(like this comment), adaptation of any alternative web browser like software will be highly unlikely even if it were several folds better at transferring media and rendering graphics with a much simpler approach and high performance. We are officially fo*ked.
This was never about the languages primarily though. The C programmers here would react the same way towards any other language, be it Zig or Swift, its not Rust specific. They just don't want to partake the additional headache they'll have to deal with to for making the Linux kernel more accessible to languages other than C.
Despite than, Rust devs kept on pushing it after all that was clearly stated, just to make things more and more annoying. Maintaining a software as huge and widely used as the Linux kernel is a huge responsibility that can't be relied on words like "leave it on our shoulders", especially when real time, immediate response is demanded. Development of something like the Linux kernel in Rust will be left unmaintained eventually, unless millions of dollahs are constantly invested into maintaining it because Rust is not as simple as C and the need to avoid accidental copying, memory leaks and almost all memory related issues will add more work because you can't escape "unsafe" when dealing with low level hadrware and C, making the usage of the Rust programming language for Linux kernel development utterly pointless.
I somewhat disagree on the "you can't escape unsafe" part. It's true for a C+Rust project, but the idea that you need an unsafe language for low level hardware access is plain wrong. That's a "C-ism". Something that might seem true in a universe where most low level work is done in C, but wouldn't be true in a universe where C doesn't exist at all.
its fine if you disagree and think that using "unsafe language" for low level hardware access is wrong but that doesn't change the fact that the more closer one operates to the hardware, the more bare-bone they need the tools to be or else they'll only get in the way of the job. Having to worry about something like a borrow checker or a reference counter just to manipulate a couple of bytes is not an efficient way to perform low level hardware programming.
Also, there is nothing wrong with any "unsafe language". Memory safety is a skill issue, not a language issue. All functional languages are safe and procedural languages are unsafe by nature. Its better to settle on a functional language and compromise on performance if memory safety is of utmost priority. The additional complexity and performance overhead of any supposedly safe procedural language is not worth it for doing low level stuff but it sure could be a fun choice when doing high level stuff.
I take potassium capsules frequently and magnesium capsules whenever I smoke, which is occasionally. Both of them were effective and help me with reducing anxiety and relieving stress.
>Our prime minister and most citizens love to brag about "ancient culture" and "proud history"
Yes. I think so too.
The bragging is mostly patriotism and it wouldn't be a wonder if the same patriotism made them wish they could erase or forget their own embarrassing past two centuries of history. Most of the historic records before that point were totally destroyed or lost so feeling proud of what's left and moving on is not bad but seriously not prioritizing preservation is really ignorant.
> Most of the historic records before that point were totally destroyed or lost so feeling proud of what's left and moving on is not bad but seriously not prioritizing preservation is really ignorant.
It's actually cultural. Even foreign historians from a thousand years back such as Al Biruni criticized the Indian cultural norms of focusing on oral traditions, instead of written text, and the use of assumptions, story telling and exaggerations instead of facts and accurate retelling, which in turn feeds into a culture that prioritized fantasy over curiosity. It's stunning to say how we can obtain accurate records of the locations of the homes destroyed in the Great Fire of London in the 16th century, but don't have an accurate account of many kings in the Indian subcontinent during the 19th century.
This could have been a direct result of the caste system, wherein the deep study of literature was only allowed for Brahmins - not even the kings and nobility.
What's wild to me is how British/British Americans can trace their families based on detailed records kept by random villages going back to the Middle Ages. Meanwhile my dad's legal birthday is off by six months because his village in Bangladesh didn't issue a birth certificate until he was five (in the mid 1950s) and then kind of just guessed.
This could have been a direct result of the caste system, wherein the deep study of literature was only allowed for Brahmins - not even the kings and nobility. The sentence itself shows the why the oral tradition failed to capture accurate records. From "The beautiful tree" by dharampal -> "in which it had been assumed that education of any sort in India, till very recent decades, was mostly limited to the twice-born amongst the Hindus, and amongst the Muslims to those from the ruling elite.
The actual situation which is revealed was different, if not quite contrary, for at least amongst the Hindus. It was the groups termed Shudras, and the castes considered below them who predominated in the thousands of the then still-existing schools in practically each of these areas."
My comment isn't exactly about embarrassing pasts or patriotism. There is lack of basic understanding about preserving data, records and books properly; not just the "how", but also the "why". Just go to any college in the country and see how librarians and students deal with the books they hold, and compare it to how colleges in the US/Europe do the same. The difference is night and day. This can be any type of book; doesn't matter if it's history or math.
Treat a book properly, and thousands of people across future decades will be able to peruse it. Treat it like garbage, and that knowledge won't be available in the future. It's the same with digitization. You need a plan to keep all the books you digitize, or else it's in danger of getting lost if the government/responsible person gets defunded/deprioritized.
All talk about "glorious history of culture and science" is hollow if you cannot store proof of it properly.
> their own embarrassing past two centuries of history.
I think part of the problem is exactly this. We don't say Spain should be embarrassed at the Muslim conquest, yet we're expected to say India should be 'ashamed' (for what?) for their past two centuries? History just is... We should stop assigning emotional value to it.
The issue here is twofold. Firstly, India is not unique in this pursuit. China also has taken charge of constructing its own history, and sometimes it's at odds with Western thinking. Often time, the oral / traditional accounts are found to be true.
Secondly, the West also falls into magical thinking. For example, right here, you are parroting the idea that Indian heterodoxy over their own history is misguided. However, it has a clear historical basis in the fact that Britain tried to expropriate most of its history. I don't mean taking various artifacts.
I mean that, for many years, Western historians pushed the idea that the Indus Valley Civilization inhabitants were not related to modern Indians. They couldn't deal with the fact that Indians may have had one of the oldest, largest, and richest ancient civilizations. Of course history has proved them wrong.... Harappan genes are well represented in the Indian subcontinent.
So, sure, we can make all kinds of claims about Indian historians inflating their own history (I would agree), but to then say that Western historians don't is just wrong... Remember, Nazi Germany's racial policy is the direct result of a ridiculously flawed and fantastical understanding of Indian history by Western historians. Like it or not, the Nazis were western too (and besides, plenty of non-German historians agreed with them... we just like to forget about that).
Finally, we cannot ignore the impact of Nazism here. Even today, it is difficult to talk about Aryans without conjuring up images of genocidal Germans. Research has to be qualified and disclaimed so that people don't take the objective historical record and try to justify more atrocities.
For example, going back to the IVC. European historians were insistent that the Aryans civilized India, and many insisted that the IVC was Aryan, and not really 'Indian'. Again, the evidence is very clear that the Harappans have no steppe ancestry. But again, we have an example of the very sort of behavior you accuse india of, except by British historians.
>India is not unique in this pursuit. China also has taken charge
No? India is unique in this pursuit because China didn't take as big of an hit as India did. The fact that The Vedas were preserved till now is well enough proof that oral accounts were not useless.
I'm an Indian. I myself can't trace my ancestry past my great grandfather lol(similar to most of the current native black Americans living in the USA) because no records were maintained as that was how insignificant avg. Indian life in India was viewed as back then, thanks to great philanthropists like Mr. Winston Churchill(not like I care). I don't think I can get through to the other comment that started out with the "c-word" and pointed out about castes and oral accounts but lineage of nobles and kings were well maintained by Brahmins and after a rough 2 centuries, very little was left to back up such claims of proper record maintenance so there's no point in fretting over it. Thanks sharing about Nazism, that's news to me.
After seeing people around me, I started to believe that Indians have an inferiority complex engraved into them due to the colonialism and they don't value books or their own history because they don't value themselves in the first place, which was the context behind my previous comment. I think it resulted as a side effect due to the helplessness they felt after what they lost, namely their heritage and their identity along with it. All this makes it seem like their inferiority complex is not going away anytime soon. Gotta see.
>Odin’s creator has some strong opinions around not prioritizing LSPs and QoL tools around Odin.
no, he does not. He just doesn't use LSP but never did he ever oppose QoL tools.
Odin has great support for LSP and they are working on other tools as well. Do note that Odin doesn't have a foundation like Rust or Zig so their pace of development will be at their own discretion. Please don't expect it to be similar to Zig or other well funded languages.
I recall a thread from a few years ago where people were saying that zig had better LSO support than Odin and saying that Odin should prioritize that more.
I recall gingerBill saying that he’d rather work on the language than adoption. Which is a fine position to have.
Never did I say he was morally against LSPs or anything, just that he has strong opinions on prioritizing its development vs the language itself.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m trying to be very clear.
The Odin lsp I found (ols) is not official and not made by gingerBill. Which, again, is fine. It’s good that the community took up the burden of making an LSP.
>Please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m trying to be very clear.
my bad then
>The Odin lsp I found (ols) is not official and not made by gingerBill. Which, again, is fine
Ginger Bill is just the creator of the language. He is already hands full with the front end and back end of the language alone. You pointing out "its fine" makes it seem like you expect him to work on LSP, web site, marketing and everything else all by himself, which he can't and I personally think he won't. LSP is a big mess and it is alright to not prioritize LSP and focus on working on the core language itself, especially if marketing is not a serious concern.
> no, he does not. He just doesn't use LSP but never did he ever oppose QoL tools.
He's somewhat against package managers (doesn't want Odin ecosystem turning into NPM or Crates.io where a single package draws in a thousand dependencies).
But yeah, Odin's LSP is used by most Odin users, including staff at JangaFX.
Its not just the dependencies bloatware, there is also an issue of accidentally pulling in a GLP license code base and several others. But if one wishes to make a package manager for Odin, they can do so and other Odin users may use it if they found it to be really helpful but from what I know, Ginger Bill will never officially support it as it doesn't align with his vision of the language.
https://pkg.odin-lang.org/
GingerBill and the Odin community put tremendous effort into making sure that the Odin compiler ships with "batteries included". You get base, core and vendor library collection that cover almost everything a developer would need to the point that you can argue that you don't need a package manager for Odin.