
Ask HN: Is the term 'software craftsman' sexist? - jaketrent
In engineering postings for our company, we currently use the position name &#x27;software craftsman&#x27;.  It is meant to describe the emphasis that we put on creating elegant software and honing our craft.  We want to continue to focus on this, but we don&#x27;t want to unwittingly be turning some people off with the title.  Does it seem like a sexist title to you?
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tptacek
It's a silly title, and an <strike>obviously gendered</strike>† one. I'd lose
it just because there's no upside to calling developers "software craftsmen".
You remember Subway used to call the people behind the counter "sandwich
artists", right?

† _may not actually be true, huh. still._

~~~
Tomte
They (Subway)don't anymore in the US?

------
wglb
I have been known to get into arguments about this sort of label. My argument
is that it is not sexist seems to be backed by Linda Greenlaw (made famous in
the movie _The Perfect Storm_ ) who is called by many "the best fisherman",
and on her website, describes herself "Between her three New York Times
bestsellers and her role in the Discovery Channel's current hit series Swords,
Linda Greenlaw has undoubtedly become America's best-known fisherman."

I don't win many over with this argument, but I think there are better places
to spend our energy in not making women and girls feel uncomfortable in this
profession. We as an industry are doing a terrible job.

And I think that "developer" is a good label in any case.

~~~
dalke
On the other hand, consider terms like "cowboy", "best boy", and "bus boy".

While "cowgirl" exists, it's usually associated with a different set of roles
than a cowboy. We also usually find "cowboy coder" in a negative context, but
a search now for "cowgirl coder" finds more positive contexts. Eg, "My name is
Tarah Wheeler Van Vlack, and I blog about Linux, coding, current technology,
and women’s issues in the IT workplace right here at The Cowgirl Coder." and
"I was one happy cowgirl coder, so I just kept going—learning as much as I
could about design, development, and tech in general."

(The general neutral term seems to be "cow hand" or "cattle handler".)

The term "best boy" appears to be used for both men and women, with no
difference in their roles. This would be a non-sexist, or at least minimally
sexist, use of the term.

The term "bus boy" appears to be disappearing, in place of busser. This is
part of the general trend towards gender-neutral job titles, but part of me
thinks it's also part of a longer trend of egalitarianism. That is, "boy" when
directed towards an adult can indicate superior status. Hence why "garçon" \-
French for "boy" \- should not be confused with the polite way to get the
attention of a server in a French restaurant. As a more direct example,
traditionally "boy" was also used by many white people to refer to any black
male, no matter the age, specifically because blacks had inferior status than
whites.

(And then there's "cabana boy", which can be used in contexts where "young
male" is an essential aspect of the job, in the same eye candy way that "young
woman" was an aspect of being a cigarette girl.)

You could pick out how "boy" is used in "best boy" to argue that it isn't a
sexist term. But that argument would be incomplete because the issue isn't
about any single title but the default-is-male implication in many titles.

I believe that your argument with "fisherman" is similar. If I ask "how many
businessmen wear dresses?", I suspect that most would be be confused, and
think I am asking about male transvestites, and only secondarily consider that
many businesspeople are businesswomen who wear dresses.

I can ask the same question using other gendered topics. How many firemen have
given birth? Of the policemen with heavy periods, do most prefer pads or
tampons? I think more people would have a double-take with these -man/-men
titles compared to the general-neutral forms of "firefighters" and "police
officers". If I'm correct, that would suggest that -man in those titles comes
with an assumption that they will be held by males, which makes them more
sexist than the gender-neutral forms.

~~~
wglb
I have two cousins who are cowboys. There is no such reference to "cattle
handler" west of the mississippi so far as I know.

And as I said, I haven't often prevailed in such arguments, but the question I
have for you, is what are you doing to not make women and girls uncomfortable
in our industry?

I think this argument has gone off the rails with the bit about dresses,
periods, and giving birth.

~~~
dalke
I have no direct experience of how cowboy, etc. is used, outside of going to
the rodeo.

The research I did earlier was based on the Wikipedia entry for "cowboy" and
verification that it's used globally. It seems to be common in NZ/AU. I can
demonstrate that it's used by people west of the Mississippi, such as:

> "Two nationally recognized cattle handling experts, Tom Noffsinger and Curt
> Pate, will be in Moses Lake[, Washington] ... Day one will feature
> Noffsinger, a veterinarian and low-stress cattle handling consultant, from
> Benkelman, Neb.." \- [http://farmprogress.com/story-nationally-known-cattle-
> handle...](http://farmprogress.com/story-nationally-known-cattle-handler-
> experts-speak-moses-lake-wash-session-9-125307)

> Born on April 1, 1883, in Waxahachie, Texas, Allen began working as a cattle
> handler at the age of ten in Jack County, Texas. -
> [https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/falnq](https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/falnq)

> Cattle handler Temple Grandin to speak at workshop -
> [http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/livestock/cattle-
> handl...](http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/livestock/cattle-handler-
> temple-grandin-to-speak-at-
> workshop/article_a95fa710-57b2-11e3-9a27-0019bb2963f4.html)

(FWIW, I've heard Temple Grandin speak.) It may be that in the US "cattle
handler" is more associated with her style of low-stress cattle management;
perhaps to place the emphasis on the cattle than the cowboy. I can think of
other reasons as well.

However, there's an entry for it in the "Classified Index of Occupations and
Industries: 1960 [US] Census of Population" at
[https://books.google.com/books?id=8W7E7S9UTKEC&pg=PR3&lpg=PR...](https://books.google.com/books?id=8W7E7S9UTKEC&pg=PR3&lpg=PR3&dq=Classified+Index+of+Occupations+and+Industries&source=bl&ots=EI0sX0pZOx&sig=kbVuIM9fXcCprXLbVH3NzXmTasI&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=ruE1VdGaI4ScsAGu64Eo&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cattle%20handler&f=false)
so it is not a new term. ("Cowboy -- Stockyards" is another category, as is
cowpuncher; perhaps I should include 'cowpuncher' as another non-gender-
specific alternative to cowhand?)

This suggests that you and I have different styles; why did you not attempt to
verify your beliefs before writing them? I have two uncles who are/were
pilots, but that does not give me special knowledge of aviation vocabulary.

Regarding your question - I do not like your rhetorical approach. It comes
across like a change of topic to place me on the defensive. No matter how I
respond, you can say that it's not enough, or you can attempt to second-guess
my failures, or say that what I have done has "gone off the rails". I do not
believe you spent much time on what I wrote previously, so don't think you
would spend time in understanding anything else I write.

------
dalke
It's tempting to suggest to use "crafter", but that term has its own
connotations different from "craftsman/craftswoman/craftsperson". See
[http://www.potters.org/subject46874.htm](http://www.potters.org/subject46874.htm)
for examples from 2001:

> [person #1:] I am uncomfortable with the word "crafter." I think it is used
> by people who do not know better in reference to anyone who practices any
> kind of craft. When we use the term "craftsman" or "craftsperson" we have a
> very definite concept in mind, and it is nothing like "crafter."

> [person #2:] Crafter, hmmmm. The image that comes to my mind is a person who
> makes toilet seat covers from little pieces of foam rubber and similar do-
> dads from the kits A.C. Moore and similar stores sell.

> [person #3:] I suspect that "crafter" is the newspaper's politically correct
> solution to the dilemma of the "man" in "craftsman". Kind of like "server"
> instead of "waitress/waiter". Unfortunately, the term "crafter" conjures up
> (in my mind) images of hot-gluing egg carton cut-outs together to form
> Christmas stars, and making poodles out of empty bread bags . . . you get
> the idea.

Several in that thread preferred instead to avoid the issue and use "artisan".

The Wikipedia entry
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craft)
concurs: "The traditional terms craftsman and craftswoman are nowadays often
replaced by artisan and rarely by craftsperson (craftspeople)."

~~~
brudgers
"Artisan" connotes work supported by patronage.

Why not just be disruptive and go with "prima donna"?

~~~
dalke
Are you sure about that? Perhaps you have mixed up "artisan" and "artist"?
Both come from the root word ars (“art, skill”); from which we also get
"artificial", for "made by skill", and the web site "Ars Technica" for the
art/skill of technology.

Quoting again from Wikipedia, at
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artisan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artisan) :
"Artisans practice a craft and may through experience and aptitude reach the
expressive levels of an artist" and "Artisans were the dominant producers of
consumer products prior to the Industrial Revolution"

Of course, WP can be wrong, so I pulled up a few examples from Google Books
from the 20th century, so there could be no feedback from Wikipedia usage:

I found
[https://books.google.com/books?id=CIH912O6ogAC&printsec=fron...](https://books.google.com/books?id=CIH912O6ogAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=artisan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hxM1VbaMBsyesgGh0IG4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=artisan&f=false)
:

> Nehemiah Wallington was a London Puritan artisan .... Wallington remained in
> the house of his birth, where he learned his father's trade as a turner and
> became free of the Company of Turners by patrimony.

And
[https://books.google.com/books?id=oRgNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA34&dq=ar...](https://books.google.com/books?id=oRgNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA34&dq=artisan&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=7BQ1VYXwH8a3sQGcroGICQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=artisan&f=false)
:

> His set of motivations, ambition, resentment, acquisitiveness, duty, and
> altruism, is typical of that shown by the uneasy class of artisan and petit
> bourgeois reformers. Like Lovett, Place, and later George Howell, Linton was
> confident of his skills and entrepreneurial abilities and needed litle
> capital to make an income; but he, like them, remained vulnerable to market
> changes, indignant at his lowly status, and sensitive to rebuffs from
> superior powers. .... William Lovett, the upright, self-educated artisan
> radical ...

And
[https://books.google.com/books?id=8YukeIgFlL4C&pg=PA105&dq=a...](https://books.google.com/books?id=8YukeIgFlL4C&pg=PA105&dq=artisan&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=OBY1VdmEMMKqsgHbm4DgDA&ved=0CCAQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=artisan&f=false)
:

> In olden days, these village artisans used to be self-sufficient in meeting
> their family requirements through the payments received by them by operating
> agriculture supporting artisan enterprises. ... Among the several artisan
> enterprises, the business of only blacksmiths, carpenters, cobblers and
> ropemakers is in existence today

None of these suggest patronage of any sort. Until the industrial age,
artisans were self-employed, and free from direct financial ties to a single
patron.

~~~
brudgers
I call "odds bodkins" on ignoring the industrial age. My supermarket sells
frozen artesianal bread dough in a plastic bag. I can buy it if I'm willing to
pay more.

~~~
dalke
First off, you are right. Artisans during the industrial age were increasingly
employed for factory production.

That's still not working for a patron.

Second off, the OP asked about a name for "engineering postings for our
company". That's part of a factory system. If anything, the term "artisan" is
even an more appropriate description.

Factories and employment lead to the near demise of artisans, as that last
reference I gave suggests. The use now is a revival of the original handcraft
sense, which is why that's what I covered.

------
brudgers
What you're [with kind hopefulness] trying to say:

    
    
      + Our company wants to hire an engineer.
      + Our company values craft.
    

Just say that.

"Craftsman" creates an impression about your company. That impression is a
first impression among the talent pool. Whether it is sexist or not is
irrelevant, it conveys self-absorbed tone deafness. That's why you're asking.

If the goal is to hire self-absorbed tone deaf staff, it's pitch perfect. To
me, and I believe in the idea of craft, the choice of "craftsman" suggests a
cluster of negative perceptions of the company:

    
    
      + true? == andmap complete_list_of_human_differences tone_deaf?
    

It also suggests a deprofessionalization of engineering. Engineering is a
higher standard than craft. Professional progression is: craftsman -> engineer
not the other way round.

Good luck.

------
gamechangr
Anyone who gets offended at that title, you are moments away from another
conflict with them.

Remember you want the builders, not the "we'll hold you to saying everything
right"-ers.

~~~
tptacek
You could make the same argument about any role name.

~~~
zxcvcxz
Until I was about 14 years old I always thought craftsman and other words
ending in "man" were based of the word "human".

Even the word "woman" has "man" in it. Can we stop pretending these words are
sexist? It's even more bigoted to assume sexism based on use of a common term
ending in "man". It's border-line insanity and people just use it to push
other people around and further a political agenda.

------
ChikkaChiChi
I don't think it's sexiest, but I do think it's over-engineered.

If you want to describe the emphasis you have on creating elegant software, do
so in the description; which is meant to describe things.

------
robin_reala
It doesn’t jump out as being so, but it’s the subtle biases that are the
difficult ones. Artisan has the same feel without a specific gender?

------
zxcvcxz
If someone doesn't want to work for your company because you used the word
"craftsman" instead of "craftsperson", then it sounds like you just dodged a
bullet. These types of people bring nothing of value to any community and are
often more concerned with politics than actually creating something.

~~~
cauterized
You're ignoring the fact that terminology has subtle psychological effects. A
woman might fail to apply not because she's consciously offended by the label
but because she subconsciously identifies with it less than she would with a
gender-neutral term.

