
 Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above - vellum
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/housing/2013/02/apartments-so-small-they-can-only-be-photographed-above/4780/
======
redact207
It gets worse. The photos are not the bottom of the barrel when it comes to
Hong Kong real estate. Those who are in the worst poverty are the ones who
live in cages. It's literally a bunk bed with sides enclosed with cage wiring.
They have no walls, minimal possessions and live day to day.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4jjdRzy3w>

Hong Kong is an intriguing city that I highly recommend to go spend some time
in.

~~~
wilfra
Good video. I disagree that the government should do anything about it though.
What's the alternative, make them homeless? If there is both supply and
demand, let people do what they want. If San Francisco allowed this, there
would be far fewer homeless people, but the only options they give them are
$2,000 a month apartments or living in the streets. So lots of people live in
the streets.

~~~
bjourne
No, the alternative is to have the government build subsidized housing and
then enact strict price controls so that even poor families can afford to live
reasonably. That's how it was done in Singapore for example and is why they
can live in "spacious" 30-70 m^2 apartments despite having a higher population
density than Hong Kong. See also
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore>.

~~~
wilfra
I disagree it is the governments job to give people a place to live. From the
sounds of it, Hong Kong already does a lot of this. At some point, people need
to take care of themselves.

~~~
IgorPartola
A hungry homeless person is everyone's problem and a huge risk. No matter how
you slice it, you end up paying the price: the value of your house goes down,
the crime rate goes up, etc. It is a myth that you can escape poverty. Sure,
you can move to an expensive gated community with a white gloved guard shooing
away the "undesirables", but why do you think it's so expensive?

Moreover, a hungry homeless person is a security risk. How many iPhones,
GPS's, laptops, etc. are stolen in a smash-and-grab incidents? How many people
get hurt? No, not by your friendly neighborhood homeless lady, but by a person
who feels they have no other choice but to steal or a person who is hooked on
an addictive substance and can't stop?

Poverty also does not take a lot of people. A few percent here and there will
cause enough headaches to become noticeable.

And poverty is chronic in society. It's not like if you took all the homeless,
poor, and hungry and shipped them off to some unknown land you'd rid of the
problem. No, instead more people would be pushed into the margins, becoming
poor. You have to treat the cause.

Therefore, if poverty is inherent in certain societal setups, if it is
everyone's problem (i.e.: everyone pays the cost) and it takes only a small
percentage of people being poor to become a big problem, it is in the interest
of everyone to change the societal setup so that poverty is minimized. Your
original point was that it's not the government's job to do this. I argue that
it is. The government (by the people and for the people) would not be doing
it's job if it wasn't taking care of me or the person next to me.

As an aside, some might argue that private charities work much more
efficiently than governments when it comes to homelessness/poverty/hunger.
Personally, I believe a balanced approach works best. Big slow moving
government projects with lots of oversight and restrictions coupled with
flexible and quick-acting private charities are much more effective than
either of the two.

~~~
srean
Wish I could upvote this enough.

------
JeremyMorgan
Call me crazy, but I've always thought if I were a single guy with no family,
I could live in something like this. I follow a couple of pages on Facebook
about minimal living and think that it wouldn't be all that bad to have a one
room place that has all the facilities needed.

It sucks that so many are left with no choice in the matter though.

~~~
nostromo
There's a whole community around the idea of tiny houses. For example, check
out this 89 sq foot home: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRvsWuWNUM>

Obviously it's different to choose this lifestyle vs being forced into it due
to poverty.

~~~
ctdonath
<http://tinyhouseblog.com/>

------
jib
I lived in a 9 m^2 apartment (with some extra storage) for 3 years (cheap rent
in Paris was nice). It was mostly fine, except you end up hearing neighbors.
If not for that, it was pretty good. It had tradeoffs tho, apartment was next
to castle of Versailles so lots of nature near. If you are single and there
are outside areas to escape to, small living was ok for me at least. Poverty
vs choice of living small makes a lot of difference for how it is. Small isn't
inherently bad, surroundings matter.

~~~
brador
How much was that and how long ago?

~~~
jib
400 euro/month around 5-10 years ago.

~~~
arrrg
That’s cheap? Wow. If it’s close to Versailles it’s well outside Paris.

I’m now moving into a 17sqft mini apartment (just for four months), one metro
station from the center of Hamburg (20 min to my very central workplace,
including a ten minute bus ride to the next metro station plus walking and
waiting times). I will pay 270 euro/month for it, including heat and
electricity.

You can get more spacious apartments in similar places in Hamburg for about
500 Euro/month. If you share an apartment with roommates you might even pay
less than 400 Euro.

Is Paris really so much more expensive, even well outside the city? I mean,
Hamburg (and Munich and now also Berlin) are already making headlines for
their crazy expensive rents.

~~~
Someone
Are you sure you have your units right? You can just put a bed on 17sqft, but
you could not also have a door swinging inwards or even place to stand next to
that bed (<https://www.google.nl/search?q=17+sq+ft+in+sq+meters>)

~~~
pyoung
I think he is missing a zero. 17 sqft is a mini-closet, not a mini-apartment.
170 sqft would still be pretty small, but doable.

~~~
arrrg
I got the units wrong. Really stupid error.

It’s a mini apartment with huge quotation marks around it. One 9 square meter
living room (with cupboard, sofa, table), one 8 square meter bedroom,
including a shower. Toilet and tiny kitchen niche in the tiny, 1 meter wide
hall not included (for whatever reason) in the 17 square meters.

I still think the 270 Euro/month are pretty expensive for what it is, but
luckily I only have to live there for four months (and in the summer, so I’m
not going to be in there all the time and will rather try to enjoy the city).

------
mediumdeviation
The source of these images, <http://www.soco.org.hk/cagehome/>, is an
intriguing (if somewhat poorly executed) advocacy-cum-exhibition site.

For those who don't want to click through, the site first present you with a
fake Firefox popup, with the only a close button. Each time you close one of
them, new ones will appear in greater numbers. Do this three times, and your
screen will be filled with popup and a message that translate roughly to:

> Ignoring the housing problem will only make it worse, help us change the
> status quo!

> Our city may be beautiful on the surface, but underneath all that 10 000
> hardworking low income workers are unable to share the fruit of our success.
> Families are forced to live in apartments with an average area of 40 square
> feet. They need your help to improve their lives; forward this email, help
> promote social justice!

------
brudgers
These are about the size of one of Florida's maximum security prison cells.

 _"Cells within the Cell Housing Unit have one or two bunks and lockers for
personal items. Generally, inmates who require a higher level of supervision
are housed in this type of cell. Cells range in size from 7 feet wide to 10
feet 8 inches or 14 feet long. "_

In 2011, Florida had just over 100,000 people in prison (that does not include
jails or Federal prisons).

<http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/vtour/securecell.include>

<http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/faq.html>

------
sigil
See also "100x100," a collection of 10 ft by 10 ft Hong Kong apartments
photographed by Michael Wolf. The use of space in some of these is just
amazing.

[http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.404783143152.173014...](http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.404783143152.173014.340072008152&type=3)

~~~
rokhayakebe
When I look at these pictures, it makes me think the problem is being
_single_.

------
lignuist
Mongolia's capital Ulaan Baatar is also called the coldest capital in the
world. Harsh temperatures during the winters force the poorest people to live
in the canalization, where are heating pipes:

[http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/pictures/mongolian-
homeless-l...](http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/pictures/mongolian-homeless-
living-underground-in-sewers.html)

I think, it cannot get worse than that.

~~~
kiiski
Sure it can. Just make the heating pipes inaccessible.

~~~
lignuist
This would "solve" the problem within one winter...

~~~
waps
The French revolutionaries actually did that. They killed the poor. How ?
Simple : they washed their clothes, then sent them back into the cold.

------
kevcampb
Does anyone have any idea of the costs of building vertically?

I ask as I generally love the idea of sky-rise buildings and high density
housing. To me, Hong Kong feels almost utopian - like some sort of architects'
playground. Stick thin apartments rising up through hillsides. Super dense
housing, but the ability to travel 30 minutes and be in remarkable
countryside. It really is remarkable.

I'd love to think this is the way forward, and regardless of opinion it seems
the way the world is moving. People are migrating to mega cities, the world is
urbanising. I guess the efficiencies you gain living this way are part of a
real draw there. You don't need a car. Mass transport is cheap and efficient.

Which makes me wonder how Hong Kong's housing situation can be so dire. Even
for the well off, the costs are prohibitive, and I dread to think how the poor
manage.

~~~
riffic
On the other hand, it has been argued that skyscrapers can be detrimental. In
_A Pattern Language_ it's stated that "There is abundant evidence to show that
high buildings make people crazy", and it goes further to propose a pattern of
a four-story limit for dense urban areas.

~~~
michaelochurch
_In A Pattern Language it's stated that "There is abundant evidence to show
that high buildings make people crazy", and it goes further to propose a
pattern of a four-story limit for dense urban areas._

Fucking terrible idea. I almost certainly know more about mental illness than
you do. What makes people crazy in urban areas is expensive real estate. It's
not signing the ridiculous rent checks that does it-- that's just annoying.
However, moving involuntarily-- especially when due to adverse economic
circumstances-- has a _huge_ detrimental effect on mental health, even
inducing illnesses such as schizophrenia[0] which might otherwise be thought
to be purely biological.

[0] Schizophrenia, like cancer and depression, probably isn't one disease.
There are at least 5 different schizophrenias.

Next to genetics and drug abuse, the strongest predictor for mental illness is
whether a person had to move involuntarily for economic reasons.
Traditionally, this was a cause for the high rate of mental illness in urban
areas. (However, the recent housing catastrophe was a mostly suburban
phenomenon; we'll see in about 10 years if that results in suburban MI levels
exceeding urban ones)

If you ban high-rises, real estate costs become extreme. Just look at what it
costs to live in the Village if you don't believe me. Or look at San
Francisco's problem. It's not nearly as dense as New York, but almost as
expensive because of the NIMBY assholes.

Bad bad bad fucking idea.

------
wallflower
See also the now demolished Kowloon Walled City

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City>

------
netcan
This is how urban poverty looks. It looked similar in Europe too. They called
them Tenements here and every self respecting character in Irish fiction grows
up in one.

------
icebraining
I find it odd that whoever build those houses decided to make tiny apartments
instead of larger shared ones. For cooking, having a shared kitchen - even if
used by many families - would probably help a lot, specially since it's
cheaper and easier to make a big communal meal than having to cook for each
family.

~~~
barry-cotter
People value not sharing space _a lot_. In first world countries most of the
worst things about being poor come from being surrounded by other poor people.
Communal cooking is more efficient at basically every scale from 2 peson
household up, where at its most egalitarian it's just taking turns to cook.
But I am aware of no modern culture where most people eat communal meals; in
fact the only exceptions I'm aware of are total institutions like prisons,
monasteries or the military.

~~~
VLM
"no modern culture where most people eat communal meals"

The blue collar lunchroom. A direct descendant of the school lunchroom.

As for anecdotes, the last time I ate in a communal lunchroom was the last
manual labor job I had around 1994 while in school, since then its all been
eating at the desk, runnin errands, going out. My employers have all had empty
lunchrooms as an anachronism, more a place to keep the coffee makers and
fridges and junk food machines. Once in awhile you'll see like 4 people in a
300 person company in the lunchroom eating together, or they have birthday
parties/meetings in the "lunch"room.

~~~
RougeFemme
I'd add cororate cafeterias to that, especially those are subsidized. But this
is for a larger company, at least 1,000 employees or so. And there's a mix of
"blue-collar" and "white-collar" employees using it. And the utilization is a
lot better - closer to 60%, plus whatever % of building tenant. And while many
of the people _do_ take the food and run back to their cubes, the cafeteria is
also almost full of people taking communal meals.

------
greggman
Japan also has many fairly small apartments.

Here's a few in the 5-6 sq meter range

<http://www.chintai.net/detail/bk_C01004728000466001/>

<http://www.chintai.net/detail/bk_C01004509001707001/>

<http://www.chintai.net/detail/bk_C01003440000826001/>

A bigger list shows a lot more in the 10-12 sq meter sizes

[http://www.chintai.net/tokyo/search/ensen/List.do?e=101001&#...</a><p>10-12
seems small in my experience but I have many friends in the 14-16 range

------
eliben
It's funny how every piece of news can be immediately retargeted as a diatribe
against the ever-evil "rich bankers".

~~~
lilsunnybee
Its because the standard of living of many bankers is disgustingly lavish
compared to the people they exploit.

------
blaze33
Reminds me of the famous french Foundation Abbé Pierre poster campaign in
winter 2008. The tagline was: "12m² for a poster, this is normal, but for a
family?".

* <http://goo.gl/zhqd3> (translated blog post) or

* <http://www.bddpunlimited.com/node/2435> (scroll to "toutes les créations" for a slideshow, js + flash needed)

------
SuperChihuahua
Here in Sweden, we have students who have to live in old military-tents
because of a crappy housing market.

[http://www.sydsvenskan.se/lund/husvilla-lth-studenter-
tvinga...](http://www.sydsvenskan.se/lund/husvilla-lth-studenter-tvingas-bo-i-
militartalt/)

~~~
protomyth
Western ND is pretty bad housing wise also. A lot of campers. You know its
going to be bad when the oil companies buy hotels.

------
jordanbaucke
Just stayed in hong kong for a week earlier this month, and I can testify to
the multigenerational apartments, and government subsidized ownership.

I stayed in an apartment I rented from AirBnB which was awesome (for 2
people). I noticed other families in the same building where staying in the
same sized places but had parents, adult children, and grandchildren living in
bunk-beds.

This was in "Central", which struck me as a poor place for a family
(apartments of this size ~350sqft were being listed for close to $1 million
usd ($7.5~$8 million HK) but than if you had some sort of government price
control when the building was built than it made more sense.

------
irmbrady
As someone who is moving from the UK to HK in 3 months, with no job or visa
secured, and attempting to bootstrap my (first) startup; this scares the crap
out of me!

~~~
steholmes
Are you moving to HK for a specific reason? As it's one of the world's most
expensive places and although things are slowly improving it's not a
particularly great place for startups.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Ya, HK is pretty much dominated by financial; no one goes there to work in
tech, and there isn't much of a talent pipeline. Singapore, Bangkok, Shenzhen,
shanghai, Beijing are better.

Coincidentally, I'm in HK on holiday going back to Beijing tomorrow. I'm
suffocating in this small hotel room....my wife did a lot of shopping, though.

------
mark_l_watson
I owned two small cruising sailboats for 20+ years so I can relate a bit to
very crowded living conditions. Those pictures showed people coping with small
spaces, for example with the high shelves for food staples. Families can cope
with a crowded environment, especially little kids who are probably happy
being right next to their parents, but with teenagers at home I can't imagine
how it would work.

------
zubentok
I thought communism was all about human equality. Guess it's true that you are
communist until you get rich, feminist until you get married etc..

~~~
meepmorp
It's worth noting that Hong Kong was under British control till 1997, and
largely retains its independence from mainland China. It has its own
constitution, and the existing capitalist system was left intact, as part of
the transfer agreement between the UK and China.

Not that China isn't chock full of disparities between better and worse off
people despite the putative ideals of the communist state, but Hong Kong isn't
a good example of such.

------
robryan
What kind of mobility do these people have? Could they choose to move to
somewhere in rural China and get something of decent size?

~~~
wyuenho
Very little.

Most people actually would rather stay in HK to take advantage of the better
education and healthcare system for their children than moving to China for a
__slightly__ more affordable place. HK is also a much safer city to live in.
The food is generally safe and the police is fair and professional.

Commuting between HK and China is also a big problem. Most jobs in HK are in
the urban areas in HK, commuting from Shenzhen or elsewhere to those areas
daily can take a huge chunk of money out of their wages, let alone the 3-4
hours they have to spend commuting.

~~~
matthewrudy
Having commuted from Shenzhen for a few months, it seems a lot of people do
actually do this.

Mostly younger people though.

The night buses from wanchai are full of HKers heading home to SZ.

~~~
wyuenho
I used to work with people who commute from Island South to SZ, but they only
do it on Friday night and come back on Monday morning. In general, people
living cages neither have the money nor time to commute.

------
ehmuidifici
So you all must need to know whats going on with real state in Brazil.
Appartments prices here are in a almost insane prices. Houses? In most big
cities(Sao Paulo, Rio, Porto Alegre), you can't buy a middle-class house with
no more less than 500k (yeah, US dollars).

~~~
michaelochurch
Real estate is one of those issues that can quickly separate smart people from
mouth-breathing idiots.

Mouth-breathing idiots see expensive real estate and think it's a good thing.
They clap their fat, ugly hands together. "People really want to live here!"

Smart people realize that expensive real estate is a sign of something that's
gone seriously wrong, since high prices have more to do with supply problems
(inelasticity) than demand. Regulatory corruption, deficient transportation,
and damaged environments are usually behind expensive real estate. It's not
something to be celebrated. It's a disease.

------
tuananh
Same goes for Vietnam. There're houses like 1/1.5 meters width. No bed,
furniture whatsoever.

------
loser777
Really surprising to see such photos after watching some ancient footage
(early 1990s) of the Kowloon Walled City recently. I'd thought that there were
no more tiny living spaces.

------
berlinbrown
I live in apartment. Not a micro-one. But I imagine you can find solace in
just having only the things you need. Why do you need a ranch size home and 20
acres?

~~~
Too
Try to store one, or maybe even two expensive and dirty mountain bikes in an
apartment. Especially with a crazy girlfriend around.

~~~
thisone
clean the bikes, get a wall rack, and dump the girlfriend (which might get you
down to one bike)

