
Notre-Dame cathedral: Firefighters tackle blaze in Paris - kragniz
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794
======
kweks
I had the privilege of undertaking the first (and now the last..) study on the
spire of Notre Dame since 1933.

The restoration works that were under place are a result in part of our
recommended actions.

The spire was incredible. It was one oak trunk, connected with a "Scarf
Joint", or "Jupitre" in French (Bolt-of-lightning joint)

There were the names of the last guys to inspect it in the 1930s, engraved at
the top. There was a french ww2 bullet embedded in the spire, presumably shot
at a germany sniper who was in the spire...

Everything in the roof was antique wood. Anyone that went into the roof was
paranoid of fire.

It's a very, very sad day.

As a celebration, I'm throwing up some photos that we'd never published from
our study.

[https://imgur.com/gallery/9k9I8Y0](https://imgur.com/gallery/9k9I8Y0)

~~~
carlob
Just a point in clarification: when you say antique, that means mid 19th
century. The original 13th century spire was removed in 1786 because it was
falling apart.

~~~
zild3d
> when you say antique, that means mid 19th century

Where is that coming from?

I don't see any definitions that constrains antique to a specific time window,
some definitions/laws include "at least 100 years old"

Antique: a work of art, piece of furniture, or decorative object made at an
earlier period and according to various customs laws at least 100 years ago

[0] [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antique](https://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/antique)

~~~
pkamb
They meant that antique means "only" 19th century _in this case_ because
that's when the spire was installed. It's not _as antique_ as the rest of the
cathedral.

------
JshWright
For those asking about why there isn't visible water being sprayed on the
fire... There's no point. Any firefighting efforts are focused on preventing
the spread of the fire to other structures (potentially other parts of the
same structure)

As a rule of thumb, the water flow necessary to extinguish a burning structure
is the volume of the structure (in feet) divided by 100. The resulting number
is (in rough numbers) the amount of water you need, in gallons per minute. For
a fire this size, you're looking at tens of thousands of gallons of water per
minute. It's just not possible.

~~~
rdiddly
The other thing those people might consider, and this includes our president,
is that they aren't firefighters, have no idea what to do, and surely live in
a place unequal to Paris in any parameter upon which you'd care to compare.
IT'S PARIS. They're in Paris. And to paraphrase Chevy Chase: You're not. They
know what they're doing. Imagine you're the Paris fire chief. That's like
being the NYC fire chief. Such a person has a distaste for explaining to
superiors why they mismanaged a firefighting operation, and has a lifetime of
experience, and hence, tends to manage it properly.

"Must act quickly!" Ya think? Hopefully the fire department in Paris, France
is listening for gems like that from out here in the boonies / the ghetto
hemisphere. How many medieval churches are there on our whole continent? Call
us if you want a church _bombed_.

(edited slightly in response to child comments)

~~~
jackstraw14
Wow. He’s not trying to give anyone advice. He only wants people to talk about
him while they’re talking about this news piece.

~~~
rdiddly
Shoot, you're probably right, and I fell for it. I guess the unintended
consequence of my strict "ignore" policy over the last 3 years, is that I'm
still a novice 3 years later. (Rarely do I see those brainfarts, but this one
was unfortunately quoted in an article.)

~~~
jackstraw14
It would be nice if there was somewhere to find high quality news reporting
that avoided toxic stuff like tweets. I'm not sure what that embedded tweet
adds to this BBC story besides getting people worked up over something that's
totally unrelated. You'd think Notre Dame burning down would be enough.

------
timothevs
Today, we are all French. As a student of European History, I want to curl up
and cry. I proposed to my beautiful wife of 11 years beneath the spire of
Notre Dame. We fell in love walking along the bouquinistes. There is a
terrible empty feeling in my heart this afternoon. It is like losing a part of
myself this day.

Yes, I know the Notre Dame will be built again. But that might not happen till
after I am long gone.

~~~
MR4D
You have a great story (albeit with a touch of sadness).

I would think that this type of event would bring the French together in a way
like few other events could. I'd expect Gilets Jaunes movement to subside
quickly.

Yes, today we are all French - and expect that we all want to see Our Lady
rebuilt. Faster, better, stronger, and much more fire-retardant than in the
past.

The Windsor Castle fire of 1992 was refurbished in 5 years, [0] and although a
national treasure, it was not at the level of the Notre Dame. But it was
rebuilt, and was even completed ahead of schedule.

The cost doesn't matter - it will probably be well over a billion. But you
will see concerts, TV specials, and all sorts of fund raisers to rebuild her.

And in this you will see the best thing of all - the French (and even people
like me who are only French on occasions like this) showing our love to
rebuild her.

 _This is the message you should hold in your heart today - one of love and
empathy, and dare I say, the grace of God that she was intended to foster._

[0] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Windsor_Castle_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Windsor_Castle_fire)

~~~
MR4D
And the pledges have already started! The owners of LVMH have pledged 200
million euro. And they weren’t even the first! [0]

[0] - [https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-notredame-
arnault/b...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-notredame-
arnault/billionaire-arnaults-family-and-lvmh-to-donate-200-million-euros-for-
paris-notre-dame-idUKKCN1RS0HC)

~~~
MR4D
Obviously the proof will be in the pudding, but it looks like 5 years is now
the (aggressive) goal for rebuilding...

[https://apnews.com/0978e08a5e4848348cdb80745ab2ab8a](https://apnews.com/0978e08a5e4848348cdb80745ab2ab8a)

------
css
Spire collapsed:
[https://twitter.com/patrickgaley/status/1117848909877895171](https://twitter.com/patrickgaley/status/1117848909877895171)

~~~
isostatic
Many of these wooden structures are nearly 1,000 years old. The spire itself
only dates from the 19th century.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Does wood really last that long? I know ancient Japanese wooden temples are
basically rebuilt every 30 years or so, a constant renewal akin to the Ship of
Theseus. Are European wooden structures similarly renewed?

~~~
mveety
Wood, if properly taken care of and kept dry, will last basically forever. I’d
imagine they do that in Japan because of humidity or so.

~~~
CydeWeys
They do it in Japan because they choose to. Rebuilding it every generation is
a religious ritual tied closely to Shintoism. The buildings certainly aren't
rotting out completely over that short timeframe!

Many Americans live in wooden houses that are much older than that. The
biggest problem tends to be termites.

------
berberous
Very sad. While a different cathedral, it reminded me of Orson Welles'
soliloquy in "F for Fake" on Chartres
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmjh8LL2zA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmjh8LL2zA)):

“And this has been standing here for centuries. The premier work of man
perhaps in the whole Western world, and it’s without a signature: Chartres. A
celebration to God’s glory and to the dignity of man. All that’s left, most
artists seem to feel these days, is man. Naked, poor, forked radish. There
aren’t any celebrations. Ours, the scientists keep telling us, is a universe
which is disposable. You know, it might be just this one anonymous glory of
all things, this rich stone forest, this epic chant, this gaiety, this grand,
choiring shout of affirmation, which we choose when all our cities are dust,
to stand intact, to mark where we have been, to testify to what we had it in
us to accomplish.

Our works in stone, in paint, in print, are spared, some of them for a few
decades or a millennium or two, but everything must finally fall in war or
wear away into the ultimate and universal ash. The triumphs and the frauds,
the treasures and the fakes. A fact of life. We’re going to die. ‘Be of good
heart,’ cry the dead artists out of the living past. Our songs will all be
silenced — but what of it? Go on singing. Maybe a man’s name doesn’t matter
all that much.”

~~~
stcredzero
In one Scientific American article, the top contender for the building which
would remain longest if people suddenly disappeared would be the bottom
pillars of the St. Louis Arch. Reinforced concrete sheathed in stainless
steel. The central arch is just steel, so it would corrode and collapse
faster. The remaining pillars would persist for many thousands of years just
on their own.

~~~
reubenswartz
I guess they are counting the Arch, but not the great pyramids, as a building?

~~~
stcredzero
From what I remember of the article, the pyramids would be right up there, but
they're subject to wearing of the exposed stone. (Also, as another analysis I
came across mentioned, they'd be buried by the desert sands.) The combination
of stainless steel with reinforced concrete makes a big difference.

------
sawjet
Cathedrals like the Notre Dame were the moonshots of their time, only able to
be built by immense societal consensus. It's unlikely with todays demographics
shifts that we will ever witness a project as monumental as these were 1000
years ago. What a shame.

~~~
Godel_unicode
You're aware that the literal moonshots were in living memory, right?

~~~
chmod775
Within living memory, but during a vastly different (political) climate.

 _Edit:_ Can anyone explain to me why this is getting downvoted?

Is there really a consensus that the current political climate is comparable
to the cold war?

The cold war which is intertwined with the space race that put a man on the
moon?

~~~
ramblerman
You mean when they shot the president? Or when they were putting communists on
a list just 15 years earlier?

~~~
chmod775
Is it really hard to guess that I was talking about the _cold war_ and the
aptly-named _space race_ (which is directly related to said cold war)?

I can't comprehend how anything _else_ could come to mind.

------
cc_nixon
The saddest thing will be losing the stained glass windows. Those have been
somehow preserved for centuries but are going to get severely damaged here.

~~~
justinator
I mean the entire cathedral has already been severely damaged. These things
are in a state of constant rebuilding - it's took many generations just to get
_built_.

Notre Dame will be fine.

~~~
lm28469
> Notre Dame will be fine.

The walls maybe, but the roof is mostly wood, made 800+ years ago, it's gone,
the statues, the drapes, the windows, the bells and the clock are gone
forever.

~~~
nailer
Expect photogrametry recreaton of every statue.

~~~
callahad
Do we even _have_ that data?

~~~
blotter_paper
For _some_ resolution and completeness, certainly. The rest can be inferred.
It won't be perfect, of course, but I'd be surprised if it isn't attempted at
some point.

------
geff82
I lived in Paris as a child and have often been at Notre Dame. I still feel
heavily connected to France. Seeing this precious diamond burn is like having
my own house burning. What a cultural tragedy.

~~~
geff82
What kind of cultural war did I get in that by expressing my feelings towards
this monument I get downvoted?

~~~
ThirdFoundation
It's quite weird, I'm not sure why you are being downvoted. I appreciated your
sentiment.

------
danso
Interesting (but not surprising) to see this at the top of HN. I wonder if
programmers feel even more existential dread about this compared to the
average person — Notre Dame is a monument that seems eternal compared to the
web apps we build.

edit: "compared to the average person"

~~~
beat
Someday, when we win the final battle against Moore's Law, computers will stop
evolving. Software will become as stable as medieval architecture. Maybe not
in our lifetimes, but it'll happen.

I'm currently reading a science fiction novel that has a scene of someone who
just woke up from nearly 200 years of hibernation getting attacked by all
sorts of futuristic machinery, due to a 200 year old assassination virus that
was still running. It could find him using the inevitable everywhere
surveillance (retina scans everywhere), and then use whatever to attack -
automated flying cars, a robot waiter, even a couch massage unit.

~~~
asdff
>Software will become as stable as medieval architecture

No chance. Software gets abandoned all the time, and mostly for economic
reasons.

~~~
beat
Not all software. Linux is over 25 years old and shows no signs of
abandonment. I think the odds are very good that it'll still be in use a
century from now. Apache is almost as old, if you count its NCSA roots.
Microsoft SQL Server is basically 1990s Sybase with a new GUI. Etc.

I think the odds are much higher that we'll see the end of significant
advancement in computing power than the odds that we'll see Linux pass into
memory. In Vernor Vinge's marvelous novel _A Deepness in the Sky_ ,
programmer-archeologists dig through millennia of software on a 5000 year old
spaceship, but it's still running Unix underneath, because no one ever came up
with anything better.

~~~
mrmuagi
> it's still running Unix underneath, because no one ever came up with
> anything better.

That gave a good chuckle. I'm delighted to give that book a go.

------
benl
The Crown of Thorns is kept in the treasury at Notre Dame and was due to be
displayed all day this Friday for Good Friday. How it ended up there is an
interesting tour of European history in itself. Let's hope that it has been
saved.

------
ineedasername
This will probably be an unpopular opinion, so let me first start by saying I
certainly mourn the loss of history, the loss of a beautiful structure, and
that which was inside.

However, as I watched it burn, the thought uppermost to my mind was the nearly
200 years it took to build, and therefore 200 years worth of sucking money and
resources from the local (and probably some non-local) populace. And this
during a period of history when many lived in abject poverty. How much more
might have been added to society if those resources had been used to better
effect?

It reminds me of how, even in modern times, the Catholic church has done much
the same. My father grew up in the north eastern US in a poor urban area. His
family was dirt poor and struggled to get 3 basic meals a day. Yet the local
parish pressured, guilted, shamed, and instilled fear in the parishioners to
get them to give 10% of their income to the church.

So yes, I mourn Notre Dame, but I can't separate it in my head from the
financial predations of the church on its followers.

~~~
mrmuagi
Tourism is the opposite of sucking money from the local populace? It's a
cultural landmark that, iirc, draws in a million tourists per year.

I kind am torn about your reasoning, but I understand it myself. If science
and technology was paraded XYZ years earlier, wouldn't things be so much
better? Except it's not that easy. Dumping a ton of gold in a pre-medieval
economy is worthless. Dumping the right ideas instead (renaissance, medicine,
industrialisation) would have been priceless. Though, I wonder, what could
have happened if instead people were taxed 10% they invested that in other
means -- wouldn't it be nice if it had compounded over all those years...

~~~
ineedasername
Your right, in modern times tourism has at least given something back
economically. But it's the "10% they invested in other means" I think about
too.

------
anigbrowl
A refresher on the scope and methods of laser-scanning Notre Dame. Professor
Andrew Tallon, who steered this project, died last November but I think it's
safe to say he will live on through his work.
[https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150622-andrew-
ta...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150622-andrew-tallon-notre-
dame-cathedral-laser-scan-art-history-medieval-gothic/)

Locals report the damage may not have been as severe as feared.
[http://johannesviii.tumblr.com/post/184208321259/jonphaedrus...](http://johannesviii.tumblr.com/post/184208321259/jonphaedrus-
notre-dame-is-burning-this-is-ok)

First photographs from inside the building are encouraging:
[https://twitter.com/becket/status/1117919627642900480](https://twitter.com/becket/status/1117919627642900480)

------
Datenstrom
I hope someone did a 3D scan of the entire structure. Seems likely someone
would have.

~~~
axlee
It is one of the most photographed landmarks in the world (with...billions(?)
of pictures), so even without a proper 3D scan we probably could remodel the
whole thing to an astounding precision.

------
dmitryminkovsky
Maybe it'll be better than we think. I've been to the Cathedral in Köln [0].
Maybe Notre Dame is not completely lost.

[0]: [http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/2014/07/shootout-at-
col...](http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/2014/07/shootout-at-cologne-
cathedral.html)

------
marricks
To preempt the conspiracy theorists showing up...

> Firefighters were rushing to try to contain a fire that has broken out at
> the cathedral, which police said began accidentally and was linked to
> building work at the site.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-
fir...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-fire-paris-
france-cathedral)

~~~
panarky
Facts aren't an antidote to conspiracy thinking.

To the conspiracy minded, facts only prove how deep the conspiracy goes.

~~~
lucb1e
A lot of "conspiracy theorists" were proved right by the Snowden discoveries.
Not all of them are lunatics, some extrapolate facts and expect something most
people would not. One is not either sane or conspiracy minded, there are a lot
of people that would be helped with facts.

------
throwaway123032
[https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yNGavoByLgJj](https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yNGavoByLgJj)
that video is heartbreaking, and I have seen some image that the entire roof
is gone.....fuck :(

------
krisrm
What a loss. Absolutely heartbreaking. I spend a good deal of my time in a
(far far less beautiful) cathedral, and I can't imagine what it would feel
like to lose it, and this is the Notre Dame.

------
vonnik
About 11 years ago, I climbed to the top of the spire of Notre Dame. It was
not a place open to the public. (Although this is true, I find my own story
hard to believe, so I will understand if there is skepticism.)

We were drunk and it was dark and late. We hopped the iron fence in the back,
and scaled the southern wall that runs along the nave, where the flying
buttresses are.

To get to the top, you climbed the walls and roof outside the building until
you reached the base of the spire, and then you climbed inside the spire up
several stories linked by rough wooden ladders, and then you had to get out
and climb outside again, on a series of metal hooks, to get to the top where
you could touch a metal globe and cross.

There was very little security (just one trap door inside the spire that you
had to climb through, where you had to make sure breaking an electrical
current didn't set off an alarm).

It was all very old, obviously, and old in a way of places where no one ever
goes. Little used, and therefore neglected. Was the wiring on the trapdoor
well insulated? I doubt it.

There was a small group of climbers in Paris who knew about this. Maybe a
couple dozen people. One of them would occasionally lead a small group of
friends: free climbing to the top of one segment of the wall, and then letting
down a rope to help up those behind.

Notre Dame is at the center of Paris. There is a bronze marker in front of the
church called "kilometre zero," from which all distances along French national
routes are measured. From the top of the spire, the city fanned out like
petals around a pistil. Paris was made to be seen from that one point, where
no one ever went except a few climbers and pigeons, and maybe an adventurous
priest.

The climber who took us up to near the top of the spire lay himself down on a
rafter in its hollow interior, above the void, and fell asleep. Like I said,
we were drunk, and it was all very dumb and dangerous.

When we came back down, about a foot before the last person touched the ground
again, his rope broke. He picked it up, stared at it for a second, murmured
"C'est mort", and threw it away.

~~~
mongol
Cherish that memory! It felt good to read.

~~~
vonnik
Thanks! And I guess the point I wanted to make is that there was no insulation
up there. No modernization had been done. The whole thing was just wood and
rock: think San Francisco in early 1906.

------
bhandziuk
Can fire cause significant structural damage to a stone building like that?

~~~
davidcollantes
There is lots of wood in that stone building. Lots.

~~~
jfoutz
Also, high enough temperatures can change the stone. I’m not remotely a
material scientist. I vaguely remember stone barbecue pits require some
special consideration.

There are also probably concerns about thermal expansions as well. The stone
might resettle a little bit differently.

~~~
all_blue_chucks
At high temperature some types of stone explode or at least crack.

------
theclaw
Why did this vanish from the front page?

~~~
glaurung_
I noticed that too. Apparently hn's algorithm really likes recent posts.
Switch your view from "top" to "best" and it jumps back up.

------
NeoBasilisk
imagine being the guy that accidentally burned down the Notre Dame Cathedral
in 2019

------
berbec
Here's a firefighter on twitter describing the difficulties involved with
fighting a fire of this type:

[https://berb.ec/ndfire](https://berb.ec/ndfire)

------
nathanlee
Don't mean to be insensitive to the fire but I'm just glad there's no reported
human injuries. Things are just things. Even if they are artifacts that
represent more.

------
odyssey7
I might be in the bargaining stage of loss - but I have to think that the
architects and engineers who worked on Notre-Dame in the 12th and 13th
centuries designed it to be gutted by fire in a way that it could be rebuilt.

My undergrad's main building - definitely nothing comparable to this
cathedral, but from a time where fire fighting wasn't that great - went
through this three times, and was always restored. It seems like this happened
a lot, and was something builders considered.

------
wespiser_2018
Very tragic, and events like this make me wish I decided to to travel more!
For context, we have burnt down and rebuilt cathedrals before, it just takes a
generation! The Reims Cathedral, which is a little bit smaller, was shelled in
WWI, and it wasn't until 1938 until it was considered 'fixed.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims_Cathedral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims_Cathedral)

------
yters
At the beginning of holy week too...

------
nine_k
«I know this doesn't help, but we have exquisite 3D laser maps of every detail
of Notre Dame, thanks to the incredible work of @Vassar art historian Andrew
Tallon. Prof Tallon passed away last November, but his work will be absolutely
crucial»

[https://twitter.com/grouchybagels/status/1117852841530368000...](https://twitter.com/grouchybagels/status/1117852841530368000?s=21)

~~~
TremendousJudge
Your comment reminded me of this story from the codeless code[0]

>...“The initiate was only half-right,” said Bawan to the emptiness. “True,
the value lies not in carven oak, but neither does it lie in the shape of the
carving; for both the real pillar and the virtual one may be lost, and the
temple will be no poorer. But when wood first yields to metal, one more thing
is made: and that is the sculptor.”

This building was a major achievement that inspired millions of people through
centuries. It is a landmark of humanity. A simple physical fire will not
destroy its legacy in our culture.

[0] [http://thecodelesscode.com/case/122](http://thecodelesscode.com/case/122)

------
qubitcoder
Live video from Reuters here:
[https://www.reuters.tv/l/PFyC](https://www.reuters.tv/l/PFyC)

------
bjourne
Very very sad news. Invaluable piece of history.

------
cwkoss
Yikes. I wonder what was the nature of the work being performed. Perhaps they
were working with volatile solvents?

~~~
CydeWeys
Could be a spark from a welder, a worker on the roof taking a smoke break, an
electrical fault, who knows. There's any number of possible ignition sources
and there's a lot of wood in that structure.

~~~
lm28469
I'm following the french live coverage. Apparently the chief architect
confirmed that no workers were present on the building at that time.

~~~
CydeWeys
Sounds most likely to be an electrical fault, then. That's what burned down
the Brazilian national museum too.

~~~
blhack
Or arson.

------
bArray
> So horrible to watch the massive fire at Notre Dame

> Cathedral in Paris. Perhaps flying water tankers could be

> used to put it out. Must act quickly!

From what I understand about fires, a lot of damage also comes from the act of
putting them out. If it doesn't have fire damage it will probably have water
damage. Also, I imagine the stone may not appreciate rapid cooling.

> The Paris prosecutor's office said it has opened an

> inquiry into the incident.

[Pure speculation]: One of the first thoughts that came to mind is that this
is deliberate. Specifically regarding the Yellow Vests protests that are still
very much ongoing, despite reduced media attention [1]. Perhaps this was in
anticipation of the debate results [2].

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-13/yellow-
ve...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-13/yellow-vest-
protests-continue-ahead-of-macron-debate-results)

[2] [https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/04/13/emmanuel-
macron-...](https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/04/13/emmanuel-macron-ends-
his-great-national-debate)

------
franciscop
I'd recommend following the events live on Twitter:
[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23notredame](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23notredame)

Though the fire seems quite intense, not sure how much will be preserved.

~~~
LeoPanthera
Social media doesn't seem like a good way to follow live events. It values
being first, and being shocking, over being accurate.

As much as rolling news has its issues, live television news from a reputable
network is better.

------
anon491throw
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-
fir...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-fire-paris-
france-cathedral#img-1)

------
duxup
It seems pretty widespread:

[https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/105852910-155535029154...](https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/105852910-1555350291548gettyimages-1137422977.jpeg)

------
cdfky
If it burns down perhaps a functional skyscraper should be built in it's
place. It would be a testament to a better, modernist future that we could
build if we disregard all prior historical biases people all over the world
still have

~~~
return0
especially religious biases

------
Causality1
Notre Dame could have burned down at any point in the last seven hundred
years. The only bright point about this tragedy is that it happened after the
invention of color high resolution photography and videography.

------
scop
Lord have mercy

------
scop
Kyrie eleison!

------
gdubs
I was lucky to visit back in 2009. It’s so much more intimate in real life
than I would have expected. Tragic to see it go up in flames. Heart goes out
to Paris.

------
gigatexal
This is terrible. I’ve been to the cathedral. France is awesome. The Louvre
was awesome. To see Notre Dame in flames is just sad.

------
aaomidi
Curious, for situations like this what happens if we airdrop a ton of small
balls of dry ice? Like a hailstorm of dry ice?

~~~
marzell
I'd imagine there are a few problems with approaching this as a solution. This
is all just speculation on my part.

The weight itself being a problem first off, as it could cause further damage
and even make it easier for the fire to spread.

The rate of sublimation would be a problem too, as the outgassing could
actually act as an insulating layer, preventing the heat of the fire from
actually increasing the release of CO2 at a useful rate to displace the oxygen
that is enabling the fire.

Additionally, normally it is recommended to work with dry ice in a well-
ventilated environment. CO2 is toxic, and also displaces oxygen, creating a
significant risk of asphyxiation. With very large volumes such as this, you
cannot effectively ventilate, so this could cause risks for those in the
surrounding environment, and also makes it impossible for firemen to work in
the area. They can't exactly run in with masks and have tanks of oxygen
strapped to their backs.

~~~
hollerith
>makes it impossible for firemen to work in the area. They can't exactly run
in with masks and have tanks of oxygen strapped to their backs.

I always thought fire fighters do that routinely: breathe from tanks of either
oxygen or oxygen mixed with other gases.

~~~
marzell
Actually they breathe compressed air (not specifically higher in oxygen
content than uncompressed air) so that would be an option. I'm not sure why I
was thinking that this would not be viable.

However, as CO2 sinks within normal atmosphere compared with smoke which
typically rises, as the dry ice sublimates it becomes much more of a hazard
for the area surrounding the fire.

For an extreme example of exposure to CO2, see the Lake Nyos disaster [1] that
killed people & animals in an area 16 miles around the lake.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster)

------
jpfed
I wonder if the Photosynth models of Notre Dame still exist, or if they could
be of any help in rebuilding.

------
ggm
York minster fire root cause was electric wiring renovations

------
StephenAmar
Quelle catastrophe

~~~
aurea
Quelle _

------
mongol
Terrible. So sad.

------
setquk
That’s terrible. I hope nobody is hurt

~~~
Kaveren
Firefighters have said no deaths, which is good. No reports of injuries from a
religious official.

~~~
setquk
Good to know. Thanks for posting.

------
interlocutor
What is the building made of? Sand, gravel, stone, and cement are fairly
inert. It must be made of some other flammable material.

~~~
evandev
A lot of the structure is wood.

------
tatiner
Sprinkler system installed?

------
tatiner
Why no sprinkler system?

------
RichardCA
This was shown on PBS in the 80's, and it still holds up. As a nerdy kid, I
remember being captivated by the animated segments.

TL;DR - The danger of fire has always been an issue in the design and
construction of these cathedrals.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZpOd2pHiI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZpOd2pHiI0)

------
nkkollaw
This is horrible. I wonder what on the scaffold started the fire. Even a
cigarette could have done this..?

------
mudil
Unprecedented tragedy. It is also a tragedy of French people who have become
rooted in the society that is far far from perfect. It's a society that is
entrenched in special interests, arbitrary rules, bogus leaders, and other
numerous ills, such as anti-Semitism and general snobbery. They pretend that
France is sophisticated, and yet they allow something like that to happen.
Excuse me, but Dutch would do better job saving Amsterdam's red light
district.

------
pastor_elm
doesn't look like they have any capacity for even fighting it. where are the
planes loaded with water? firetrucks with ladders?

~~~
Thaxll
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade)

"it is the largest fire service in Europe and the third largest urban fire
service in the world, after the Tokyo Fire Department and New York City Fire
Department. Its motto is "Save or Perish" (French "Sauver ou périr")."

I'm sure they have enough capacity.

Also you don't just drop water from planes above cities... this makes no
sense.

~~~
vanadium
> Also you don't just drop water from planes above cities... this makses no
> sense.

Superb way to collapse the structure, incinerate/crush the firefighters, and
endanger pretty much anyone around the area, all while leaving pretty much
nothing to be saved. Say nothing of anyone that might be trapped in there.

~~~
JshWright
[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/trump-encourages-france-
to-u...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/trump-encourages-france-to-use-
flying-water-tankers-for-notre-dame-fire.html)

~~~
vanadium
Oh, that was in the back of my mind when I responded. Most assuredly.

------
bennettfeely
Too early to say if it is related but a dozen or more Catholic Churches across
France have been desecrated, vandalized, or set on fire since February of this
year.

[https://aleteia.org/2019/02/16/string-of-attacks-on-
french-c...](https://aleteia.org/2019/02/16/string-of-attacks-on-french-
churches-includes-desecration-of-eucharist/)

~~~
ritz_labringue
This does not look like a reliable source of information at all.

~~~
bennettfeely
> Although there was no immediate evidence of a connection, France has seen a
> number of attacks on Catholic churches in the past year, including arson and
> vandalism.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pariss-notre-
cat...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pariss-notre-cathedral-is-
on-fire/2019/04/15/c487906e-5fa1-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html)

[https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-
fra...](https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-
altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800)

