
Ask HN: What is the smartest career path to take? - bigJavaLava
I&#x27;m mid-twenties working as a Software Engineer. I&#x27;m still working at my first job out of college and making just about $80k. Not FAANG salary but supports my cost of living as of right now.<p>Currently, my job is very easy (mostly spikes and research) and extremely flexible. We basically spend time just researching the latest hypes in the tech industry and seeing if the company can offer products in the space.<p>As I said, it&#x27;s easy, but also pointless and kinda boring at times. But I deal with it, nonetheless.<p>My question is what would the smart thing for me to do next? I&#x27;m still in the stage in life where I&#x27;m searching for &quot;happiness and fulfillment&quot; and want to try new things but I am also afraid of making dumb career decisions. Just for context, outside of work I mainly focus on my other interests (politics and government, filmmaking and socializing).<p>Should I:<p>1. Try to find a higher paying job? Bite the bullet and challenge myself to get a $100k salary job? I guess that if I&#x27;m going to be bored at work, I might as well be bored but making more. But I also know this will probably mean I will have to put in more work than I&#x27;m accosumted to. Also, I have a great work life balance that I would hate to lose. (I&#x27;m stricly 40 hours). But I&#x27;m also cautiously thinking how your earning potential lowers as you age.<p>2. Stay where I&#x27;m at and spend that extra time developing in the non-career areas I care about. I.E, getting more involved in my government and filmmaking stuff.<p>3. Start a business? Something I&#x27;ve spent the last two years researching and wanting to do, but I just don&#x27;t have any ideas&#x2F;problems to solve.<p>4. Something else?<p>Sorry if this is a dumb question. I wish someone would make a guide for young people titled, &quot;how to suceed at your life.&quot;
======
davedx
> But I'm also cautiously thinking how your earning potential lowers as you
> age.

It's not happened to me yet, my earning potential has only increased as I've
gained more experience (41 now), especially since I went freelance.

I would say in your 20's is a great time to take risks. Usually doing this
will give you great experience you can then apply throughout your life, too.
For example:

\- Work for a startup. Here you are on Hacker News! The pay won't be as good
as a bigger company and equity probably won't ever pay out anything much, but
you will learn a LOT if you choose to work for a half decent startup.

\- Go freelance. This is how I've learned the majority of the technologies
I've worked with. For the first 15 years of my career I mostly stuck to what I
knew, after going freelance my skillset grew significantly due to working with
various different clients with different requirements. Note that if you go
freelance it will be hard to go back to working in permanent positions. The
freedom and money is really nice.

Starting a business - (Assuming you mean "build a product") - I personally
wouldn't recommend this unless you have a good idea; early paying customers;
the ability to commit to it and execute continuously. It's the most difficult
career path to take. IMHO it's worth waiting and gaining experience and seeing
what else is out there first before diving in. It takes serious drive, tons of
effort and some luck to be successful. I've released a few of my own products
and nothing has been successful - becoming a successful freelancer was MUCH
easier.

Take risks, meet people, learn plenty of new things. If you can combine your
interests with your career it can be great but be careful you don't end up
burning out on something you privately enjoy because of combining it with
work.

Good luck!

~~~
pmiller2
I’d like to push back a bit on “work for a startup in your 20s.”

Sure, _if_ you want to work at a startup, I would say early career is the best
time to do so. Best case scenario, you learn a lot, your company has a
successful exit, and you make some decent cash.

The other side of the coin is that for every well run startup where you can
learn a lot, there are a bunch that are terrible, where you won’t learn as
much, your stock options won’t ever be worth anything, you’ll be overworked,
and you’ll overall end up behind where you would have been starting at a more
established company.

My experience has been mostly the latter, so I’m a little biased here, but it
seems like the default HN bias leans the other way, so I’m trying to
counterbalance that. Yes, I _did_ learn from my couple of startup tours, but
I’m not sure if I became a better _engineer_ as a result of working at those
places. IMO, my time at larger, public companies has been more valuable to me
in career terms.

~~~
bradlys
It's important to highlight the type of things you'll learn. I don't know if I
ever became a better software engineer in a technical sense through working at
startups that have any kind of struggle. Startups that are on a rocket ship
might have time for building their employees or the money to hire employees
who know how to write code well without supervision - but most don't.

The other aspect here is a lot of people have a different idea on what joining
a startup is. I've heard of people saying, "Oh, I'm joining a startup!" And
then it's Uber just before they IPO. Maybe technically Uber was a startup at
that point but I've been at a seed stage company - they're not even remotely
comparable experiences. I worry people who have only worked at startups with
10+ engineers, super engineering driven culture, and lots of funding are
giving the advice of, "work for a startup! It's great!"

Most of the time - it isn't great. It's terrible and not being a founder is
the #1 reason I never want to join a startup again. All the risk - none of the
reward and none of the power. Fucking sucks.

~~~
pmiller2
Totally agreed. I've been at 3 startups. One was a 12 year old "startup" that
was just a privately held business with big dreams and no follow through. The
second was a later stage (series C or D, I believe) company where I did learn
some things, but, not enough to make up for the below market comp and
worthless options. The third was a series B startup that was much the same.

For an employee, whether they're looking to learn or earn, I think "go work at
a startup" as a blanket piece of advice is a bad idea, unless they know how to
spot the red flags a bad startup throws up. The earlier stage the company is,
the more potential it has for both learning and earning. But, earlier stage
bad companies haven't been weeded out as thoroughly as later stage companies.
This is just survivorship bias, although, in this case, it works for you
rather than against you.

------
docflabby
Some advice from my experiences.

First thing to realize is that you are already very successful in monetary
terms. You're in a top percentile of earnings and have options open to you
many people would dream of. You've got lucky!

Once you have accepted that, you need to work out what is driving you on
because it is likely ego rather interest or passion or desire. It's about how
you can demonstrate you are a success to some figure you have chosen to
arbitrate your success - be that friends/family/organisation/other.

The smart thing to do is what you want to do and is bringing you closer to
fulfilling you current life goals - and these will change.

Luck can turn bad very quick and go well - one career move ended up increasing
my income massively - but my latest one due to bad timing with covid has left
me unemployed and looking for work!

~~~
claudiulodro
> Once you have accepted that, you need to work out what is driving you on
> because it is likely ego rather interest or passion or desire.

Well phrased. I agree 100%. I've spend considerable time in the past trying to
get into FAANG companies before realizing I was chasing status and money more
than I was chasing something I actually wanted to do.

A mental "metaphor" I use to avoid falling into that trap again is thinking
about how most people don't really want to be rock stars. They just want to be
famous and rich. Most people would hate practicing instruments for hours a
day, touring in a bus all summer performing shows every night, dealing with
record labels, etc.

------
vax425
Congratulations! You've got the fundamental building block of what I call "The
Dev Lifestyle".

You can work PILLARS, CONTRACTS, and SIDE HUSTLES - mix and match to suit you.

Your PILLAR job is the one that provides a modest salary and very valuable
benefits. It must not require many meetings and you need to be able to keep it
with as little effort as possible, otherwise the rest of The Lifestyle becomes
impossible. Don't take a management job there (more meetings). Keep it as long
as you can.

Next, you'll want to start moonlighting as a consultant. This is your CONTRACT
GIG. This will often pay MORE than your PILLAR pays you. Use contract gigs to
develop a huge network of people over time who will hire you for yet more
contract gigs. With the right accountant at your side, your overall tax rate
for contracts (in the USA) will be ridiculously low, so you end up with even
more in your bank account.

Along the way, you will get ideas for products or services. These are your
SIDE HUSTLES. Develop and market them yourself. Push yourself to use new and
interesting technologies in these endeavors. Eventually you might hit the
jackpot and have a business that pays you enough to quit all other work.

Good luck!

~~~
hypnqs
Re tax rate, how does that work? What are you writing off to get a
ridiculously low tax rate?

I was under the impression that overall tax is usually ~10% higher for
contractors in the US.

------
idoby
Higher paying jobs don't pay higher for no reason. One of those reasons could
be that you have unique skills worth paying for. Another reason is as
compensation for squeezing every last hour of work out of you. Not saying you
can't get a higher paying job and be happy with your work-life balance, but
buyer beware when it comes to this. You might actually be in a good place in
this regard.

If you start a business, you might get the opportunity to learn a bunch of
things you never would have in a corporate environment, and if the business
succeeds, you might have the time and money to do the other things on your
list. If it doesn't succeed, you'll certainly have the time when you decide to
shut it down.

Another option is to start a side business while working for your current
employer, if your contract and legal environment will allow it.

Your mid-twenties are a great time to figure out what you want to be by the
end of your thirties.

~~~
tw600040
//Higher paying jobs don't pay higher for no reason

Completely disagree. there are software developers working so much and making
peanuts and there are developers that know how to BS and work may be 1/5th and
make thrice or 4 times the pay.

Completely disagree that higher paying jobs demand more.

~~~
julianeon
True, but for every 10 jobs paying 80k, in probably 8 of them you can keep it
to 40 hours strictly, whereas for every 10 jobs paying 150k, it's the reverse:
in 9 of them, you have to work more than 40 hours a week. (Maybe the 1 other
guy has a Harvard CS degree and can immediately pull up his LinkedIn inbox if
his manager implies a threat).

There may be extenuating circumstances if, say, you work remotely from
Nowhere, Alaska, so they can pay you less, or you work in a college lab where
programmers-in-training are plentiful. But generally, those forces are pushing
to equalize, across programming positions all across the country.

I worked a lower paying job at one point, and the truth is, at lower salaries,
"well this is what you're paying me for" was kind of implied. Or maybe it's
more accurate to put it in reverse: if your employer jacks up the workload,
then employees will think, why don't I just get a 120k job, since it'll be the
same amount of work, now? So employers at lower salaries have a strong
incentive to be chill, just as employees at that level can have a chill
lifestyle, as that's something employers are happy to make happen for lower
costs.

~~~
idoby
I've worked $150k/year jobs, the expectations of work pace/output are implied,
but completely there.

They'll pay lip service to mental health and work-life balance, but you'll see
the real incentives in who gets bonuses/promotions and who gets "managed out".

Try to have a minor mental health episode in a tech company. Just try. Then
tell me how long the line is at the unemployment office.

------
AnimalMuppet
People want different things. Worse, people want different things at different
times. That makes it very hard to write "how to succeed at your life".

You're bored. I think that means that you're ready for a job that demands more
of you than the one you're in. (Plus, that usually means more money.) Looking
for a job with more responsibility might be your first move. (That doesn't
mean that you necessarily have to switch companies. You _can_ just ask your
boss for more or harder work.)

But as you move to harder work, one of the problems is maintaining balance.
You want work that demands more of you - but not so much that work becomes
your life. That way lies burnout and depression, which are not what you're
looking for.

~~~
bigJavaLava
> You want work that demands more of you - but not so much that work becomes
> your life. That way lies burnout and depression, which are not what you're
> looking for.

Yes, balance is key. I guess you can't have the best of both worlds?

~~~
fmpwizard
You can definitely have the best of both worlds. People will tell you (or me
here) that it's rare, etc, and maybe it is, but all you need is one. Keeping
balance is not something you do once and then you are done, it is similar to,
you are not a recovered alcoholic, you are a recovering alcoholic, because any
day you can fall back. You don't have to say, I can either have a happy
personal life or make money, you can do both.

------
l_t
I'm in my late 20s, and went through something similar when I left my first
job a few years ago. I'm sure that has both positive and negative implications
for my advice!

The book "So Good They Can't Ignore You" by Cal Newport was really beneficial
for me to build a mental model about career growth.

In short, "career growth" is basically _building an asset_ and then _bartering
that asset_ for things you want. So in your case, it's really important to
understand two things:

1\. What assets (career capital) do you have? e.g. Authority borne of
experience, a history of demonstrating excellence (or at least good-
enoughness), a good network/references, etc.

2\. What do you want to barter those assets for? What kind of job do you want
to have, ideally?

As an example, in my case, I felt my "capital" was fairly low -- I was still a
junior developer. But, I really wanted to work remotely, and work-life balance
is very important to me. So, I willingly accepted a pay cut to work from home.
Then by building more capital over time, I've been able to raise my salary
back to the original level, and above.

In your case, perhaps you should evaluate whether you have accumulated enough
"capital" to "fund" a significant spike in salary, or not. (Chances are, if
you've been working at a place for years, you have also made some demonstrable
growth. If not, you might want to think about how to grow your responsibility
at your current gig.)

------
T-hawk
I'm an example of your #2. I have a pretty easy and cushy 40-hour software
development job, in a fairly quiet company and industry. I could be making
more or doing splashier work at a FAANG, but I'm happy to compartmentalize
software into that box, and spend the rest of my time on non-technical hobbies
and interests.

Not everyone has to be a world-smashing rock star startup. Hacker News
certainly has an exposure bias towards that, but there's absolutely nothing
wrong with doing a mundane software job to easily pay the bills, while
channeling your passionate focus elsewhere.

It's perfectly fine to have a wall between work and other interests. I rarely
get interested in software for its own sake outside of getting paid for it
(maybe a small personal project once every couple years), and conversely my
other interests need to stay passions rather than trying to be leveraged into
monetizing.

~~~
foogazi
> I could be making more or doing splashier work at a FAANG, but I'm happy to
> compartmentalize software into that box, and spend the rest of my time on
> non-technical hobbies and interests.

Do you think FAANG people have no hobbies?

They are just like you and me.

------
emilwallner
Here are a few good starting points:

\-
[https://pmarchive.com/guide_to_career_planning_part0.html](https://pmarchive.com/guide_to_career_planning_part0.html)

\- [https://blog.samaltman.com/how-to-be-
successful](https://blog.samaltman.com/how-to-be-successful)

\- [http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html)

\-
[https://twitter.com/naval/status/1002103360646823936](https://twitter.com/naval/status/1002103360646823936)

\- [https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-
you...](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/18/your-money-or-your-life/)

\- What should I do with my life? Po Bronson [Book]

------
cpach
I recently re-read this article by Julia Evans:
[https://jvns.ca/blog/2018/09/30/some-possible-career-
goals/](https://jvns.ca/blog/2018/09/30/some-possible-career-goals/)

You might want to read it for inspiration.

------
codingdave
> I'm also cautiously thinking how your earning potential lowers as you age.

Be wary of that thinking -- It is not your earning potential that wanes, but
your chance of a huge startup exit. And aging doesn't mean you cannot try for
those opportunities, it means older people have also seen that a good salary,
with good savings, and decades of compound interest will still make you a
multi-millionaire. But the thought of 20, 30, 40 years of watching interest
slowly grow sounds horrible in your twenties. Yet once you've lived 20-30 of
those years, it sounds like common sense. Many of us older folk choose to
"only" be wealthy, not stinkin' rich, because we feel it is a better life than
giving up your twenties chasing unicorns.

> how to suceed at your life.

Find something to do for work that pays decently and doesn't give you mental
health problems. Do it well. Do it 40ish hours a week. And then put it away
and go live "your life". Make friends/family. Enjoy hobbies. Go enjoy this
world, and whatever interests you have in it. Nobody sits on their deathbed
wishing they had worked more.

------
framebit
How do you define success for you life? Put differently, what do you define as
The Good Life?

You have to define that metric for yourself. Nobody else can do that for you.
That said, I can offer a personal illustration.

I was in an art-oriented career previously. I defined The Good Life back then
as achieving prestige in my field of art. Several years in, I came to realize
that, for myself, my definition of The Good Life had changed. It now included
time to spend hanging out with and helping friends; getting to know my nieces
and nephews; having time to pursue art that's meaningful to me without
attaching my paycheck to it.

I've been able to make progress towards my personal definition of The Good
Life by changing careers into tech where job security is more guaranteed than
in the freelance art world, and where the jobs are interesting enough and
pretty cushy. That's given me the financial freedom to have that balance in my
life with time for friends, family, religious life, art, my spouse, and other
things.

What is success to you?

~~~
bigJavaLava
That is a really good question. Honestly, I never really thought about it.
Nothing outside of get a degree, get an apartment, and get a job.

------
BTBurke
I'll give a bit of a different perspective since I've never worked as a
professional developer, unlike the majority of the folks here.

Don't be afraid to reinvent yourself in a completely different industry. I've
changed careers three times. I worked as an engineer, then in energy finance,
and now as a diplomat. In some cases, it meant a move up, sideways, or even a
drastic pay cut and starting over at the bottom.

You'd be surprised how many industries just want people who are fast learners
and are willing to put in the work to ramp up quickly.

Pick an industry you think makes a difference. I made my last career move at
37 with a hefty pay cut, and now I'm a lot happier.

In the end, you're not competing with anyone but yourself. You might as well
pick something now that you think will meet your long-term goals. And if it
doesn't work out like you thought, it's never too late to reinvent yourself.

------
S_A_P
As others have said here the answer is “it depends”. There is no best career
path for the most part. There are certainly ways you can make more money and
have greater job security. Most of the time job security and salary are at
odds with each other.

Next you need to decide what you want out of life. Do you LOVE development and
building software? Or is it something that you do because it pays pretty well?
Do you want to travel and see the world? Do you want to work only enough to do
the things you love? Do you want to build a company? Do you like managing
people? Do you want to still be a developer in 20-30 years?

I don’t think this is a dumb question and I actually think that it’s smart to
ask these kinds of questions. Unfortunately I can’t tell you what is best for
you with out know more about you. (Even then I can just give advice based on
my life experience which may or may not help you) I suggest finding a trusted
senior person at your company and see if they will mentor you. If may help to
see aspects of the business not related to development as well.

------
AYBABTME
If you want to use salary-as-a-metric-of-success, your location is going to
help put your situation in context. FWIW I've had super well paying jobs that
had awesome work-life balance, and very bad paying jobs that had awful work-
life balance. I think it's a false dichotomy, you can have both good pay and
good life balance.

With that out of the way, "How" to achieve "more" depends a lot on your
interests and life goals.

edit: I see that 7 and 10 months ago, you basically posted the same "Ask HN".
I think you should change job, there's no reason to keep a job that bores you
to death. There's no point in trying to learn to love your job, if you don't
enjoy it, you don't enjoy it. Luckily as a software engineer, you're not stuck
in there.

Now your problem seems to be that you don't know what to do with your life,
and you feel that somehow you need to accept the routine of daily life to find
happiness. You mentioned wishing you could be satisfied with the routine like
others are. There's no point trying to fit someone else's enjoyment of life,
you're not the same person. It's not true that this is the only way to enjoy
life.

Again, I don't know your situation/location, so it's hard to put your
situation into perspective. I'd just say, on the "how to live a happy life"
side of things, that you need to figure out first why you're alive, what makes
you wake up in the morning and decide that your life worthy of living.
Somehow, by continuing to breathe everyday, you're making the active decision
of being alive. Figure out what motivates this decision, and then optimize for
it.

Personally, I've always thought that life is pointless, has no intrinsic
meaning. It's like a video game, you can play it or not, and it won't change
anything whether you do or not. However, there's reasons we play video games:
they're enjoyable, something in them makes us feel satisfaction. In my
personal life, I enjoy the idea of exploring and furthering humanity in the
technological space, and that motivates how I govern my life, or at least
which goals I pick for myself. It made me pick hobbies, such as sailing and
fabrication/manufacturing, that help me live my goals. I've oriented my career
choices in a similar manner too: in particular only working for remote
companies. I've not always been happy, in the moment, with the job I was
making, but it was usually the right tradeoff overall toward my longer term
goals.

------
m23khan
from what it sounds like, you have done 3-5 years at your current place (which
is your first job out of college). Reading your post, it sounds like your job
hasn't really given you a whole lot of proper software development experience
(build out proper software systems, productionalize your product/solution and
then do support once it goes live, etc.).

Frankly speaking, granted I don't know the exact nature of your work - but it
seems like your years of experience won't really reflect quality of work
expected from an engineer similar to your work experience (number of years).

It happens - I have been in similar situation at the start of my career (doing
part-time MSc that took few years to complete).

My advice to you - since you haven't mentioned programming / personal dev.
projects as your hobbies...likely this isn't a hobby/habit you will pick up
soon so unless you are naturally gifted, I wouldn't bank on you landing a
FAANG position (or a similarly high paying Dev job). Therefore, if I were you,
if you have _substantial_ savings built, pay off your debts (if you have any)
and after that, either invest in real-estate (buy and then rent property)
otherwise get training for some trades career where you can eventually have a
shot at running your own company when you hit 40s (HVAC, plumbing, trucking,
garage door installation, etc.).

Why do I say this? 10-15 more years down the road, your lifestyle and the
mind-and-body would have changed. What is the guarantee you will still enjoy
sticking around in IT given you already feel bored? Better build out something
for yourself that is non IT related.

I would have advice you for something that involves government / filmmaking
but those are activities that IMHO involves a ton of good luck for you to make
anything significant from it.

------
sloaken
I had a similar dilemma when I was your age. Mine was burn out / bored driven.

Someone asked me what would I regret not doing at the end of my life. When
ever that would be. As is common wisdom we regret what we do not do, not what
we choose to do.

So I quite my job and road a bicycle up the east coast for 6 weeks. Followed a
year later w NZ and Australia. Then the UK ....

~~~
yjhoney
I look back and my traveling days and I think I'd be better off doing
something else during that period.

It seems like traveling and adventuring has been glamorized by the media and
people around me a bit much and I caught the bug.

Looking back, I would have preferred to spend more time at local gardens,
participated more in neighborhood events, helped out local community more and
got to know my neighbors better. These activities to build a deeper emotional
connection with people around me would have helped my mental health
tremendously back then.

I'm not saying I regret traveling, I'm saying that the main reason why I took
time to explore the world primarily because of the glamor of it and me trying
to chase the next crazy adventure, all the while contributing to global
warming in my wake. Traveling is not for everyone and I hope fewer people give
out a blanket `travel the world` prescription and more people are willing to
admit that maybe traveling didn't do shit for their growth.

~~~
cyberpunk
Don't you think that if you'd have done all those things instead you'd
probably be saying now that you'd wish you'd gone travelling? ;)

Do both!

~~~
yjhoney
I know that's how the saying goes, but I don't think I would be saying now
that I'd wish I had gone traveling if I had not done it. I'm pretty such I
would not be wishing for traveling if I'm at the same state of happiness as I
am now, and I could have reached the same level of happiness in life if I did
not travel (possibly even earlier).

Traveling objectively made me worse off than if I had not done it.

------
ddevault
The career path that enables you to have the most fulfilling life.

You only get one life - if you're not spending it doing what you enjoy or are
passionate about, you're wasting it. Decide what you want to do or accomplish
with your limited time in this mortal coil, and then make a plan which allows
you to meet those goals.

This decision is personal and exists entirely outside of the economy and your
role in it. Your career only comes into play when you need to make money to
meet your goals, then you have to figure out the balance between working and
living and make sure that the work supports the living. The perfect career is
one which directly supports your life goals by virtue of being paid to get the
most out of life, by making a career out of something you're passionate about.
Don't fall for the propeganda that would have you be satisfied with a
corporate wage slave life simply because it "feels right". Become a corporate
wage slave because it enables you to meet your goals, not because it is a goal
in and of itself - but if you can manage it, try to skip or minimize the wage
slave step and accomplish your goals directly.

In short, think about your life before you think about your career, and use
your conclusions to frame your thinking around your career.

------
toohotatopic
To put it bluntly:

How can research be easy? If it is easy, aim higher.

If you want to start a business but you haven't had an idea in 2 years even
though you are paid for having ideas, that's a problem.

Being a business insider is the best place to come up with ideas. Maybe you
can ask for a temporary transfer out of your research position onto the
production line or into sales? Experience the problems. Then the ideas come by
themselves.

Bring one idea to market and you have the reputation to be a freelancer or a
founder.

------
eming1
I too am mid-twenties and software engineer. I've actually been thinking about
much of the same thing.

Personally, I'm currently focused on developing my self-awareness by attending
therapy, journaling on childhood issues and current emotional reactions, and
meditating. I found even as an "adult" in a "real job" I have trouble asking
for help, writing clear documentation, feeling confident to take on larger
roles and digging into self-awareness has helped that a lot. See
@healthygamer_gg on twitch if you're interested.

While doing all this, I realized what lead me to software was being good at
the math and science in school, and this is a well payable stable job. Growing
up somewhat poor, this seemed great and I loved the praise of doing good job
and getting rewarded with bonuses/promotions. I began to see I depended on
these to feel good but as I realize this, I want to get more out of life. And
so, I find myself in a similar position to you, not really knowing what to do.

So, I suggest this: reflect on what you value, try to create and put something
out there (maybe make a 5 min film on a recent local policy and how it affects
your local community), develop skills and have fun, ask yourself who are and
and why are you this way; who do you want to be? HBR's "Working Identity"
posits that you can't know only by introspection, you have to also just try
things out.

I'll finish off with this: "Know thyself" -Seneca. Perhaps there's no manual
because the act of looking is the task required. That said, I find philosophy
and psychology to be the closest proxy :P

------
renewiltord
A. Go work at a growth stage startup, i.e. Series A or close to it. You can
commit really hard to work here. Double down whenever you can. Parlay that
into bigger roles later. Crucially, aim to grow continuously here, you're
trading off cash for growth so you have to get the growth.

B. Work at a FAANG. You'll get serious dollars. Use that to build long runway.
Run company later or just FIRE yourself to peace.

Don't waste time on rinky dink stuff right now.

------
ian0
I don't think its possible to write a guide on how to succeed at life as
peoples definitions of success change throughout their life! Some pointers for
you based on what you have said:

1\. Its nice to be financially well off & saving puts you in a better
position. So regardless of whether your on $80k or $100k get saving.

2\. Your in the bracket of people who likely wont have an issue earning,
congratulations. People in this bracket will rarely if ever look back on a
period in life and say "I wish I worked more", esp if you follow 1. So if you
have any constructive hobbies outside of work then give them your all. If you
have anything you want to try, eg going pro with the photography (never works
but fun trying) or politiking (works but you'll end up a politician) nows the
time! Dont just smoke weed and play games though.

3\. I would recommend against starting a startup unless you really really like
building stuff, dont mind crappy jobs and comfortable with a lot of sacrifice.
Im a founder and happy, but its most definitely not for everyone.

4\. If your looking for v. large salaries down the line optimise wholly for
experience in your 20s. It's only when you get into the executive bracket that
salaries go completely crazy, they are measured for all technical roles and
demand/supply changes. Im not versed on the tech-speciality route, but I do
remember high-paying specialities from telco in the 90s all but disappeared
now (though a lot of people retired young from them)

Anecdotal, but I spent my 20s not working very hard. Didn't focus on career at
all, however was very focussed on "learning". Ended up starting late and
overtaking most peers, I think my diverse experience helped with perspective.
Made me less institutionalised. Ive seen a few people with similar routes (20s
travelling, yachting, building etc etc).

------
organicfigs
Having gone through my twenties and seen many bright cs grads fail at starting
a business, I think the best option is to find a role where upward movement is
attainable every couple of years and attrition is relatively low. I cannot
tell you how envious I am of people who did worse than me in college but are
DevOps managers or app sec managers.

------
glitchc
There is no one set formula. Everyone here can only share what’s worked or not
worked for them, and that may or may not work for you.

My personal anecdote: I’ve always tried to do interesting things with
meaningful impact while staying away from dark pattern systems (ad tech,
marketing tech, surveillance tech) as they are detrimental to society at
large. This has led me to spend more time on safety critical systems. Also, I
prefer to research algorithms, techniques and tools that other engineers can
use to deliver products. I try to write code that other engineers will use.

My choices have led me to enjoy high autonomy at the price of salary, which is
about adequate at best. That’s the price of the moral high ground.

It may be that what’s bothering you is the lack of impact. It seems that most
of your research doesn’t lead to products, and the market share of the
products also sounds fairly niche.

Perhaps doing the same role at a large corporation with a large client base
will scratch the itch. Govt. is also another choice. Policy impact can be
massive. Your research will be more focused on tech that actually has a chance
of being useful to the business and some of the code you write will end up in
a production system. Now, this will likely still make you less money,
sometimes far less, than the folks in operations, basically those in the line
of fire responsible for ensuring continuous operation. You could go work for
them instead if money is more important.

That’s the fundamental tradeoff: autonomy or money. It’s entirely up to you to
decide which is worth more to you.

I won’t jump into opening your own business because that requires a completely
different skillset, and frankly it’s very difficult to succeed if you’re not
inherently a people person. It would only really work if you have a unique
skill catering to a dedicated, pre-made market. Every other type of business
seems to require a lot of people-handling, and overall is the least autonomous
of the three. The client is always your boss. Ergo if you have many clients,
you have many bosses. Of course, giving people exactly what they want can make
you a billionaire, so there’s that tradeoff again.

------
hindsightbias
On startup - are you married or have other obligations. It doesn’t get simpler
to try the more complicated your life is (unless the partner is all-in
supporting you for a few years)

On ideas - have you seen a product space that looks promising but your
employer does not have solutions or has passed on it?

Quality of Life and Startup Life are not likely to coexist in real space. It’s
jumping into a pit without a parachute. There may clouds or rocks on the way
down.

If you want to make more and cruise, consider older/stable tech where the
workforce is aging out but new tech applies (Kubernetes exists on mainframes,
but those people are 60).

------
akamaka
All of your options are very good ones, so you likely won’t be able to come to
a decision by simply thinking about it and getting advice.

Take concrete steps in a promising direction and judge the results along the
way.

For example, if you want to pursue a higher-paying job:

* Do interviews at big tech companies. Talk to the people who work there and really learn what it’s like to work there.

* Visit cities like SF, NYC, and Seattle, meet local people, and see if you would love to move there.

Same goes for the other options. Spend some time working for free with someone
who has a startup idea and see if you like it. And so on.

------
TopHand
My best suggestion is to develop another skill that could be distantly related
to the skill you already have. In my case, before I retired I was good, not
great at circuit design and was good, not great at developing firmware in C.
With those two skills, I did not go unemployed. As far as boredom goes, most
professions/vocations have long periods of boredom. I once asked a helicopter
pilot if he ever got bored. His reply was that flying helicopters entailed
long hours of complete boredom interspersed with moments of shear terror.

------
qqj
i want to counter all the sensible people offering you to save money and such
while you're young. let's say you want to spend a decade building your
reputation, expertise, and saving money. and lets say you have to compromise
in order to do this, meaning you'll be working at ok places but you won't care
deeply for the work you're doing.

after about 4 years of that 10 year long stretch you're going to lose
motivation/track of the grand plan and wonder what the hell you are doing with
your life. if you ever get out of that depression you'll regret every moment
you wasted on a plan that amounts to serving a decade of your best years in
prison, so that you can come out the other end having forgotten what you were
going to do, or if you do remember having lost all the enthusiasm and will to
do it. not to mention you're likely to go through significant life events like
meeting your significant other, breakdowns, etc.

humans are not timeless fixtures of character and personality. this fact is
exacerbated by the accelerated rate of change in the world. you're not who you
were last year, and 5 years from now the difference a year makes is only going
to only grow larger.

do what you __really __want to do. do it now. do not ever compromise.

------
didip
1\. Work for a FAANG for 15-20 years.

2\. Manage your personal finance wisely.

3\. Don't get a divorce.

4\. Retire.

------
h2odragon
OK, you've got 'personal" happiness, and found it lacking, perhaps you need to
expand your goals... Have you considered public service? Forgo the work you
enjoy and the money you can make and go into politics, see if you can do
something to make your town a better place. It need not become a career but
you might well be able to do some good in a few years, and you'd certainly
learn new things even in a few months.

------
sjg007
People are happiest when their needs are met, where they can self-actualize,
help and work with others. There are a lot of options these days as virtually
ever industry needs software.

With respect to starting a business, it sounds like you have a role where you
analyze the latest tech trends and to see if your company can use them. That
skill is valuable and you could do that work as a consultant for other
companies etc... That is one startup path. As you gain experience and clients,
some product opportunities may arise. But it might be boring though if you
find your current job boring. I can tell you though that the big consultancies
charge big bucks for whitepapers and research into the current market leaders
etc...

If you want to continue with a software career in politics and film making,
then I would advise you to work in those areas to find the market you could
develop software for. Is that something you want to do? What do you find
interesting about those fields? In film making there are a lot of custom
software pipelines for rendering etc... For politics, I don't know. I imagine
there is some push for data driven politics but is that viable.. no idea?
Maybe going back to school to study public policy or politics is a way to go.
Maybe join a political campaign. There seems to be a lot of activity around FB
ads and data analysis etc... So some of the tools you research now could be
useful in political campaigns. Keep in mind that political campaigns have
limited lifespans so you might want to combine that work with consulting work.

Also, it's your network that is going to get you your next opportunity. You
get a network by working with other people. What field do you want that in?
This is one reason why people dislike working from home because these
opportunities become more limited.

------
volume
This is one of my favorite videos about choice. It’s a couple snippets of Alan
Watts and audio from Mr. Nobody. All with nicely edited video clips from here
and there. I think it related to nonduality. That all options are correct,
when you think about it or frame it a certain way:
[https://youtu.be/aGpyjeq93K8](https://youtu.be/aGpyjeq93K8)

------
me_smith
I don't think anyone can define what it means to "succeed at your life" other
than you.

Is more money important to you? It's OK if it is. From your #1, it doesn't
seem like it is that important.

Everyone has a different meaning for success and everyone has a different path
to it. What makes you happy? What do you wake up excited to do?

------
ZainRiz
It's not true that you have to loose work life balance at the higher paying
companies.

Speaking as someone who's worked at both Microsoft, Google, and Stripe your
work life balance is completely up to you (Amazon is an outlier)

The average engineer at all those places has a decent work life balance, and
in fact from what I saw working longer hours did NOT correlate strongly with
improved career outcomes.

The only exception to this is that some of the better managers I saw tended to
spend more hours working. But I think that came more from their ambition than
an innate requirement of their positions: They wanted to keep going up the
ladder so they kept trying to take on more and more responsibilities. Other
managers I had who weren't as ambitious kept a good work/life balance and were
still happy. Again, it's up to you.

------
chatbot2
IMO the smartest thing you can do early in your career is get enough exposure
to figure out what you're really good at. In my case, working for a startup
for a few years exposed me to all parts of the business, from configuring
modbus connections to making product decisions and managing a team. Some of
these things sounded interesting until I was working on them every day; others
seemed boring until I really dug in. In any case, I came out of it with a
clear understanding of which career path I wanted to pursue, without all of
the what-ifs that come with a lack of exposure.

If you find your niche, the money will come. If you find your niche, the
fulfillment will come. I wouldn't recommend chasing either until you have a
sense of what kind of work makes you feel competent and accomplished at the
end of the day.

------
glaugh
Few random thoughts:

1\. Most people’s answers to questions like this tend towards “Here’s what I
did, you should do it, too”

2\. If you want to have a family in your 30s, you might feel a strong pull to
optimize for money then. So optimize for learning and fun and risk in your
20s.

3\. Working at (effective) larger organizations is nice training of best
practices, process, communication, and professionalism

4\. Working at a larger organization yields a big network that you can pull on
for the rest of your career for interesting opportunities

5\. Working at small startups is nice training for hustling, getting stuff
done, and learning a lot by dint of doing a lot

6\. Doing your own startup is #4, only moreso.

7\. The best financial return is generally a pre-IPO that looks very likely to
go public or reach liquidity soon. They tend to pay closer to market salaries
and hand out equity relatively generously (ymmv)

~~~
cyberpunk
This is all solid advice, I would probably add though that in your 20s you
might want to set a time limit of a year and half to any one job, as soon as
things get comfortable you should be looking for something new.

I had a lot of different jobs in my 20s and they all helped me become a better
engineer, if I had stayed at one of the first ones (which was probably the
most fun I had at work) then I wouldn't be where I am now..

Alt; land a gig at a consultancy or something doing some presales engineering
stuff, you'll do an insane amount of weird things there for lots of different
clients but have the security of a longer term position I guess.

~~~
zlast
Curious about your experiences as an early developer myself, any way to
contact you?

~~~
cyberpunk
Not really, I like to keep my HN account sep from reality. Happy to reply on
here though :)

~~~
zlast
No problem.

What different roles did you do? I'm a software engineer (new grad), and have
been thinking of switching roles to learn more, i.e sales engineering. How did
you make the transition?

~~~
cyberpunk
I started out as a C dev, then moved to ops, then consulting (infra, etc --
pre cloud), then devops style work (embedded with dev, cloud ops, automation
etc), spent a while doing presales for a consultancy setting up CI/CD stuff
POCs..

------
griffinkelly
I have a lot of friends that I grew up are perfectly fine with just working--
took a similar-sounding job to you out of college, bought a house, had kids,
and really enjoy it.

Personally, I get bored easily. I took a similar job to you out of college but
used all my spare time to start building my startup. As soon as I had a thumbs
up from an investor, I quit my job--in retrospect, very prematurely--and went
all in. It turned out to be a good overall career move as I found out what I
liked and didn't like by doing literally everything in my startup--sales,
software, hardware, you name it.

Youth is an advantage, as you have no responsibilities, and can do whatever
you want, so take some risks if you want to. The last thing I wanted to do is
wake up when I'm 60 and wish I had done X, Y or Z.

------
spudlyo
As someone who is older, and spent much of their 20s working on their career,
I regret that I hadn't spent more time on my personal interests when I was
young. If I had it all to do over again, I would spend less of those years
trying to climb the ladder as a Software Engineer and more of my time writing
and performing music.

I'm certain I'd still be working in tech today, some 30 years on, but I bet it
would have been a lot more fun to have been in a band and had a serious
musical hobby when I was in my 20s, rather than in my late 40s.

------
xenonite
I found useful general career advice on
[https://80000hours.org](https://80000hours.org) which I can highly recommend
to study.

~~~
colinmhayes
Seconded 80000 hours. Great pragmatic advice, but it really is geared toward a
certain mindset. Many developers are in the required headspace, but not all of
them.

------
TbobbyZ
Listen to Naval Ravikant. He has a great Joe Rogan interview or you can listen
to his podcast. Each podcast episode are short 1-3 minute bits of wisdom.
Naval talks at a high level on how to achieve the trifecta of what most people
want: health, wealth, and happiness/peace. These are the three things we need
in the modern age to be free.

------
benjohnson
Does your family have a lot of money?

Yes: Do risky things that offer a high reward.

No: Do stable thing that offer good constant pay with sensible career path.

------
RickJWagner
If I were in my mid-20s and not married, here's what I'd do:

\- Work like crazy to get a job at one of the big-bucks mills

\- Live in a bare-bones apartment, sharing rent with others

\- Rack up a big pile of cash, invest it in Boglehead fashion

\- Work like that for 10 years, then go do whatever you really want to do

If you don't somehow die early, it should have paid off.

Good luck to you.

------
canjoe
Don't do something until you are burnt out.

Do something that helps people in a way where you can receive their gratitude.

------
foogazi
Time to go for FAANG and 4X that TC

------
irrational
I’m curious about earning potential lowering as you age. When does that kick
in? I’m almost 50 and just got a 15% raise to about 150k. Plus I get a 3% cost
of living increase every year. From what I can see my salary is just going up.

------
sys_64738
Have an exit strategy. You'll get to a certain age where you're too expensive
and the level of experience can be bought cheaper and younger. My real advice
is to be debt free by 40.

------
zzzcarrot
Your job sounds interesting, would you be interested in chatting about it?

------
samyounon
my 2 cents: do this: "spend that extra time developing in the non-career areas
I care about. I.E, getting more involved in my government and filmmaking
stuff."

------
GnarfGnarf
Your life will be judged by what you have done for others.

------
blaser-waffle
> I wish someone would make a guide for young people titled, "how to succeed
> at your life."

There is no universal "win at life" thing. You've been fed a stream of broadly
capitalist rhetoric that you need to earn more and consume more. They don't
have any answers to "succeeding" or being happy -- they just want you to buy
another luxury vehicle or a house you can't afford.

Don't get me wrong, nice things are nice -- nothin wrong with having a Lexus
-- but you're the only one who gets to choose "how to succeed at life."

When you're 80 years old and you're explaining what you did during your life
to your kids/friends/nursing home attendants what would you want to tell them?

------
ChuckMcM
It is not a dumb question, it is a question everyone in their 20's should be
thinking about. Not surprisingly though, it doesn't have a "right" answer as
there are different answers for different people.

In my personal experience being 'bored' is a huge red flag for me. When I'm
bored I don't do my best work, and I don't engage strongly with the team. Thus
someone managing me would get the impression that I'm not very capable.

So instead of an answer I'd suggest an algorithm to use to guide you in your
career choices. It goes something like this:

Ask yourself, what parts of this job give me satisfaction?

There are different ways to measure that, perhaps the easiest is to look at
the past few projects you have worked on and write down what was your favorite
and least favorite part of that project.

Understand that "writing software" is a skill or a trade that you apply to
different problems. A woodworker that applies their skill to building houses
might see themselves as a home builder, or one who applies their skills to
making kitchen cabinets as cabinet maker.

Some people find pleasure in the finding of algorithms and efficiency, some
like to dive into how software is created (tools), and still others enjoy
specific domains such as databases, or accounting, or operating systems.

So step 1 of the algorithm is to find the parts of your job that bring you
joy. It will also help you find the things you dislike the most about writing
software.

Step 2 then is to invest time in mitigating the things you don't like about
writing software and to start focusing on companies or roles that are more
focused on the things you love about writing software.

When I joined Intel out of college I had a co-worker who had started the same
time I did who was a software engineer. They found they really liked writing
accounting software (they wrote their own money manager for CP/M) they left
Intel and went to work for a company called PeachTree that did accounting
software and loved it. Another co-worker at Sun who started out writing
software but found they really enjoyed the planning and project management
aspects rather than the coding aspects, so they went into project management
instead. Both examples of people examining what they liked about their job or
skill and then investing in doing more of that.

To your point 1) ... you mention the 'strictly 40 hours', and that is possible
in any job, you just have to stick to it. Others may chide you for it, or be
jealous, but it's a life choice that you get to make. Managers who don't
respect it are not worth working for.

And "earning potential lowers as you age" this is only true if you don't grow
your skillset with age. You can also find yourself in a unique skillset that
grows in value with age. So basically it isn't a given. That said, its always
a smart move to live well within your means and bank the excess for later.

~~~
non-entity
> Step 2 then is to invest time in mitigating the things you don't like about
> writing software and to start focusing on companies or roles that are more
> focused on the things you love about writing software.

Unfortunately, in my case, those roles are reserved for people much smarter
and credentialed than myself.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Obviously I don't know anything about your specific situation so humor me if
I'm being dense okay?

How exactly are the roles "reserved" ? Do you live somewhere that has more of
a patronage mode of filling roles or one where it's more merit based?

For example, one of the engineers I knew at NetApp came to work in the US from
Mumbai because they could not advance as a software engineer without a degree
from one of the "ITS" schools (they went to a second tier school). In the US
that wasn't a problem, in India it was. Their solution was to change countries
(as hard as that is).

If that is not the case, are you constrained in some way from upgrading your
credentials to the ones you need?

I have also observed that smaller companies are more focused on who can do the
job rather than their credentials. Sometimes moving to a company that needs
your skills more than they care to look good on paper might be worth looking
into.

~~~
non-entity
Eh, part of it is just that "the things I love about writing software" just
aren't very important or in demand in a business setting. There certainly are
positions I think I would enjoy, but they are fewer in number most of the
positions prefer people with graduate degrees (I know not to put too much
trust in job listings, but some domains do tend to be more strict on that sort
of requirements, whether it be a culture thing or otherwise) and I never went
to school at all.

> If that is not the case, are you constrained in some way from upgrading your
> credentials to the ones you need?

Money, and to a lesser extent time. I can't be considered a resident of the
state I reside in "for tuition purposes" at least for a couple years, so
there's no in-state tuition for me. On top of that I make enough money not to
qualify for any aid, but not enough to fork out nearly six figures in a
reasonable time. I could _maybe_ pull out private loans, but for just an
undergrad degree, it honestly doesn't feel worth it.

> I have also observed that smaller companies are more focused on who can do
> the job rather than their credentials. Sometimes moving to a company that
> needs your skills more than they care to look good on paper might be worth
> looking into.

Yeah, I'm not fully given up quite yet, hell several years back, I didn't
think I would ever get a software development positions period, but I managed
to get in.

------
naveen_
Study ayurveda, meditation, yoga and body building etc.

Then help and teach others.

------
bill1am
what do you want to do?

------
joeldg
Not a dumb question at all. I am 46 now and am a Senior SRE at at large
company here in the valley and have been where you are, I went the startup
route for a while but in the end this is a better fit for me.

There is an old saying that "someone who doesn't like to talk about their
work, hates it." If your free time is not involved with what you do at work
then you may be in the wrong profession or, you may have not had a chance to
marry the two. Filmmaking and government are both GREAT areas for tech!

I used to live in LA and know a lot of people in the movie industry who work
in computers there and make a very good living. It's not just VFX folks but
also game companies and all the support that goes with media, from websites,
pipelines and advertising. There is a ton of ways to be in tech/programming
and work in film or game industries in LA or New York. Same goes for politics,
except that is going to be more limited to Washington DC (which is
surprisingly a great place to live). In DC and the surrounding areas like
Maryland is where all your tech folks at a multitude of government
contractors, lobbyists, data collection and campaigns (as well as security).

If it is just about money and if you want to stay a programmer in regular tech
then my advice in answer to this is; challenging yourself is always the
best/better option unless you are explicitly taking a break. If you want to
advance in your career and not stagnate, if you want to not be bored then you
need to challenge yourself at every step. If this is not possible in your job,
find a new job. Finding a new job is easier than you might think, every
company is hiring programmers, data science, large data, reliability people
even in the middle of a pandemic. Most of those companies will move you to one
of the hubs of tech. Get that book cracking the coding interview, do practice
interviews online, read all the cheatsheets for interviews people have on
github, contribute to opensource, write tutorials on Medium and Github pages
and try to land a job in Silicon Valley, you will make money and live in a
pretty place and if you are careful with money you can retire early. (all the
FIRE kids are doing it)

Figured I would toss that out there.

