
In Silicon Valley, some men say cosmetic procedures are essential to a career - prostoalex
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/01/09/silicon-valley-some-men-say-cosmetic-procedures-are-essential-career/
======
oppositelock
Other commenters may be dismissing this article as obvious, but silicon valley
does have a problem, particularly in young, hip startups. These companies want
to hire young, hip people, and when products being produced are very vague
with no clear market, then things like image matter a lot. Juicero, comes to
mind. That's fine, you don't have to work there.

However, as you get older, develop wrinkles and grey hair, that appearance of
being older far outweighs your experience in initial impressions that you
make. I've personally been a software engineer since 1995, quite a while now.
My hair is grey, my face has wrinkles, and I'm an expert in several domains.
When I go interview for a new job, it's typically by people younger and less
experienced than me, since I'm definitely past the median age in this
industry. I get asked questions like, "do you feel you still have relevant
knowledge", or "we do things differently than in your day", or "do you think
you can work in a fast paced environment", etc.

Tech is arrogant and judgmental and image matters a lot. I can understand how
people might resort to plastic surgery to buy themselves a few non-judgmental
years.

~~~
anon9001
I think this cuts both ways. I'm getting older, but I get along really well
with the fresh meat.

What works for me is to come across as an OG hacker and stay up to date on
whatever the hot tech is. I'm also as immature as ever and have a pretty good
command of dank memes, which I think helps more than people want to admit.
I'll follow the culture wherever it goes, the same as I have since I was a
teenager.

I just always try to expose myself to everything so I know what's going on,
from 4chan to reddit to HN to NPR to Fox News. IMO cultural awareness is the
key to appearing "young", even if your physical appearance is older.

~~~
oppositelock
The other way experience helps is that you don't really need to interview at
unknown places if you want to work somewhere. Over time, you've built up a
professional network, and you can generally switch jobs via that network,
instead of walking in the front door. Having a deep specialty in something
allows you to work with other such specialists.

------
rayiner
> Only the previous week, he says, he returned from a 10-day trip to Italy’s
> Amalfi Coast. Before that, he boasts, he journeyed to a yoga retreat and
> juice cleanse in Bali, the perfect setting to unload the stress he absorbs
> working at a well-known tech company in Silicon Valley. After ending a five-
> year marriage and shedding 10 pounds of subcutaneous fat several years back
> — his sun-kissed body now carb- and toxin-free — Daniel has reemerged a new,
> seemingly younger man.

This must be fake. This does not describe any software developer I’ve ever
met. (Maybe because I’m on the east coast but engineering culture can’t be
that different, can it?)

~~~
bb88
One theory is that good looking software engineers aren't software engineers
for very long.

Why would you get paid shit wages when you can be a VP of telling people what
to do?

Call it the "jock-ification" of the tech world. It was bad enough when they
were in high school, now they've infiltrated the tech world.

~~~
catalogia
> _" Call it the "jock-ification" of the tech world. It was bad enough when
> they were in high school, now they've infiltrated the tech world."_

The "jock/nerd dichotomy" is a dumb harmful stereotype used by lazy hollywood
and television writers. Many of the smartest people I've ever known were also
the most athletic. There is NO inverse relationship between physical fitness
and intelligence. If anything, there is a positive correlation between the
two, as being healthy and well nourished makes you more likely to realize both
your physical and intellectual potential.

~~~
solinent
It was obvious to the ancient Greeks, we're still getting there today. The
Hollywood stereotype perpetuates the split, which definitely exists today, but
also the advantages of economic specialization kind of limits you to one or
the other these days.

~~~
catalogia
It exists only insofar as naive children internalize and ape what they see on
TV. There is no reason whatsoever that a bright child shouldn't enjoy sports,
except the Disney channel tells him he must choose between reading books or
exercise, when there is plenty of time in the day for both. And insofar as it
discourages smart kids from exercising, it's a clearly harmful stereotype
which you should refrain from reinforcing.

Real life is not a 1980s teen comedy movie, no matter how comforting out of
shape engineers may find the notion.

~~~
munmaek
Hollywood is a reflection on culture, not the other way around. They just make
what people want to see (it's a business, after all).

Anything else is mindless conspiracy theories. There is no secret cabal
pushing culture to the masses.

It's so bizarre to observe normal humans and businesses (and how organizations
_completely_ fail at any meaningful scale), and then to turn around and assume
there is a hyper-intelligent, hyper-powerful secret society running things.

Instead of blaming Satan, now we have boogeymen from conspiracy theories to
fulfill his role.

------
bdcravens
This just in: there's bias based on appearance. Outside of SV, being the wrong
skin tone, wrong gender, not pretty enough, too pretty, not tall enough, etc
are all attributes that have been unfairly affecting workers, since, well,
forever.

~~~
gnulinux
You would have thought when you're engineer you'd only be judged based on your
technical skills, your work output, performance, efficiency, ideas, design
etc. Most of my team is remote so for all I know they're just those things I
listed above, and a voice and a pixelated set of images Google hangouts show
me. It's devastating that people still need to be discriminated in this
industry.

~~~
0xff00ffee
Your list has one glaring exclusion: social skills.

If you're a brilliant programmer, but an asshole and proud of it (or unaware
of it), then yes, you will not get far on your skills alone.

Whether we like it or not, we are all part of a society, and those who choose
to rebel against that, well, that's thier choice and accept the consequences.
(Follow up: you can't really hide behind remote work if you lack social
skills. Possibly, but not very likely.)

EDIT: Snark removal.

~~~
anon9001
Remote work probably makes social skills _more_ important, because your
coworkers lose the benefit of non-verbal cues. I work remotely and I try to
convey a lot of personality and availability to stay integrated with the team.

~~~
0xff00ffee
Good point!

Email especially. I work with 10 different countries, and programmers from
England respond differently to my word choices than programmers from China,
Japan, Holland, or India.

I find I have to be painfully concise and free from humor, idiom or analogy.
It's tough!

------
adamch
80% of male attractiveness comes down having a good haircut and clothes that
fit you.

Assuming you're in SF and have a high-paying software job. Find a hair stylist
in a mid-range salon who you can actually talk to, show them some pictures of
haircuts you like, and let them find something that works. If you find a
professional and are OK paying them a bit extra, you'll get good results.

As for "clothes that fit", I have a terrible eye for that, so when I go
shopping I just ask a more stylish friend to come with me, or I just ask the
shop assistants a lot of questions. Again, they're professionals. They know
what works.

~~~
hadiz
This advice is throttled around here. There is an implication to this: if
you're bald, you're fucking screwed as a man. Attractiveness would not be
achievable.

~~~
kthejoker2
So ..

The Rock? Jason Statham? Oscar de la Renta? Tom Ford's receding hairline?

I mean, your point is just not taken. Plenty of men wear baldness well, and
plenty of men with hair do not.

~~~
hadiz
I never said bald men cannot be handsome. I was saying "get a nice haircut"
implies that.

------
iamcasen
When I lived and worked in SF it was hilarious to me how rapidly the culture
shifted. In only 6 years, it went from a lot of competent, interesting, varied
personalities, to an army of chrome backpacks, folding bikes, and brown
leather boots.

Due to the vast wealth flooding there from VC coffers, people drank the
Koolaid and drank it fast. I've watched people change their whole personality
over night as if they constantly have their finger on the changing winds of
cult personality.

Needless to say I ran for the hills. Best of luck Bay Area, you'll always have
a place in my heart.

~~~
WWLink
That sucks. I grew up in the bay area and haven't been around much in.. almost
a decade. DANG WTF?!

Did it really change that much? lol.

------
jm20
Attractiveness has always affected opportunities afforded to people and other
people’s perceptions of you. This is not just in tech. Hell, it influences
elections! This is just human nature and has been studied extensively. It’s
just trendy to bash Silicon Valley for this, because, you know, everyone on
Wall Street is wearing suits for the comfort factor...

However, I think there’s an upper bounds on where that matters, and I think it
mostly matters when climbing the corporate ladder. If you look at the richest
men in the world, most are not supermodels.

The moral of the story - if you want to play the game you have to play by the
game’s rules. Otherwise, play a different game.

~~~
catalogia
Of course conformity is the reason for the suits, but I'd like to point out
that if you're wearing suits 5 days a week it would be foolish to not buy a
comfortable one. Good materials and a good fit can make for a _very_
comfortable suit.

More comfortable, I dare say, than the casual attire I must wear when working
for west coast tech companies, lest I not conform to west coast tech company
expectations. T-shirts and hoodies lose their charm when they start to feel
like a requirement. Nice silk suit trousers feel nicer than blue-jeans, if
they fit well they feel as nice as pajamas, but the looks you get in a west
coast tech offices when you wear such clothing are withering.

~~~
sokoloff
The (somewhat) new stretch denim (with 1-3% elastane) makes for amazingly
comfortable jeans. If you haven't tried a pair, give them a shot.

~~~
catalogia
Fully agree, that's what I wear now. It's a lot more comfortable than
traditional denim, but still not quite as comfortable as the silk slacks with
elastic wastes that I wear to weddings and whatnot.

------
sukilot
What a weasel-worded title!

Better title: "In some places, some people say some things"

~~~
pc86
That's not what a weasel word is. Weasel words are things like "potentially"
and "possibly" that you can put into otherwise declaratory statements so that
when you're shown to be wrong you can fall back on "well I said possibly!" or
similar.

~~~
QuercusMax
Saying "some men" is a pretty weasely phrasing. "Some" could mean 2. It could
mean millions!

I bet "some men in Silicon Valley" are doing all kinds of things. Some men in
Silicon Valley enjoy eating Durian. Some men in Silicon Valley enjoy being
punched in the testicles. That doesn't mean anything, though.

------
S_A_P
I will provide a bit of anecdata. I went from not really fat, but kinda just
mushy to my high school weight when I was ~30 and started working out and did
a lot of running. The way I was treated be everyone was drastically
different(better). I then had a severe foot fracture that required surgery and
12-18 month recovery. Running has proven difficult even 5 years later. I am
regaining some pudge, and notice that royal treatment I used to get is not
there anymore. I will also say that my mind is nowhere near as sharp. 2020 is
the year I get back in shape, and will see if that makes a difference again...

~~~
wikibob
Can you swim instead?

~~~
S_A_P
I can- but I generally dislike it. Running was a meditation for me, and I
loved how I would 1) count my steps for a while until I got in the zone and
then 2) time and problems would fall away.

Ive not experienced that while swimming...

------
jelliclesfarm
I am very pro-body modification. And it’s affordable to the masses now and
safer with non invasive medtech.

One day...I hope in my lifetime..we will be able to have implants to download
our thoughts, memories and feelings..dare I say..consciousness..or soul..into
a chip.

Looking at the physical body as a vessel and getting used to the idea that it
is merely necessary hardware to our mind is important.

I don’t want to create children for immortality. I want to be immortal as
myself.

It’s not about hacking biology. It’s about hacking immortality. This is the
first step. Tiny one. But crucial one.

~~~
1996
Count me in! I don't want to squander my resources on anyone but myself.

As I often say, give me death or give me immortality!

I am hopeful some crypto billionaires will share the same mindset, and pour
resources into anti aging research at the cellular level.

~~~
jacquesm
I've got bad news for both of you: you're going to die, and you won't be
resurrected. So better live your lives as if every day matters.

~~~
1996
Not bad news- I accept that by default, I'm going to lose the game. That's the
"give me death" part.

Still that don't mean I won't try the other part, removing everything that
could stand between me and my objective.

No kids = no college fund = more money to spend on life extending treatments
if they become available

I trust the human creativity will hack death someday. The only question is
whether I will be alive to see that day. If I'm not, at least I will have
contributed my money to the good fight.

~~~
jacquesm
The question you will need to answer is what you are living for. I do have
children and their college fund is a rounding error on a lifetime of expenses,
if I had to live life again and could choose to add another 100 years to the
life I have or have children I would definitely have children again.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I don’t have children. DNA is too random. I might if I can design my own
progeny.

Or clone myself. It is also ‘technically’ ..theoretically possible to clone
oneself. That’s a different discussion.

Ideally I would like different ‘skins’ that I can step in and out of ..and
keep all my memories and thoughts and ‘self’.

------
Diederich
I'm older than the person mentioned at the top of this article, and I've made
no efforts to hide it.

I've been in the tech industry for about 27 years now, and silicon valley for
the last 11. In silicon valley, I've worked at multiple startups, as well as
two 'FAANG' companies.

My comp has always been very good, and I've not detected even one little hint
of 'ageism' at work. In fact, my career and current work environment has never
been better.

> “In Silicon Valley, it’s commonly believed that if you’re over the age of
> 35, you’re seen as over the hill,” said Fan, who touts himself as an expert
> in penile enhancement and Botox injections. “People here value the young for
> their passion and their ability to look at things in new ways."

These sentences cause my jaw to drop for several different reasons. Penile
injections? Really?

I will say that keeping myself mentally 'fresh' in perspective and outlook
takes real work, but that's just part of necessary continuing education.

In my career, I've generally targeted a 45 (on average) work week. A lot more
is fine, from time to time. And I will say that I've seen quite a few of my
co-workers who seemed to enjoy working way more hours than that. Some of them
young, some of them older than me.

What matters at work is results.

What also matters to web sites is clicks and emotionally driven attention.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Are you saying penile enhancement and size and performance doesn’t have an
affect on males? Curious female minds want to know..

I have always wanted to objectify men. I struggle to choose between their
looks or bank balance or penis size. That’s why men in the past wore cod
pieces. I would like it back please..

~~~
sokoloff
If my penis ever makes an appearance in the workplace, something has gone
terrifically wrong.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I notice that you said ‘terrifically’ and not ‘terrribly’.

------
nishantvyas
> "Daniel, who spoke on the condition that only his first name be published
> for fear of being outed as old.."

Daniel, I am no genius but if you are reading this, WashingtonPost story with
your details hardly makes you anonymous.

\- Daniel

\- in his late 30s, but he’s 48 years old

\- returned from a 10-day trip to Italy’s Amalfi Coast

\- journeyed to a yoga retreat and juice cleanse in Bali

\- ending a five-year marriage

\- shedding 10 pounds of subcutaneous fat several years back

------
cc23
I wonder if this depends on what language you develop in. I've been working on
C++ teams for the past few years, and I don't witness any age bias. If there
is an age bias, it's against younger engineers, because usually older
engineers are much better at C++. The classical image of a programmer is still
highly respected on every team I've worked on.

Also, I am an ex division 1 wrestler, and pretty muscular, and I always felt
my physique actually worked to my detriment in interviews; I take a lot of
steps to not come off as a jock/meathead. I wear glasses to make myself look
more like a programmer, than an athlete. Maybe there is a difference though
between being in shape, and being a division 1 wrestler.

Or maybe this is mostly a west coast/silicon valley thing. I've been working
out of NYC mostly. Regardless though, this article really does not resonate
with my experience as a software engineer.

------
BrianB
Maybe some 15 years ago I had a job interview. It went well and I was asked to
meet the co-founders at a downtown bar. Being dressed rather casually I asked
if it was appropriate attire for the bar. I was told "Actually, one of the
reasons I want to hire you is because you look like what I would expect a
computer geek to look like." (I'm paraphrasing, it was a long time...)

------
40acres
Really tired of the lazy trend in journalism where you find 2-3 "eccentric"
software developers and label their lifestyle as a SV trend.

------
jcomis
I'm being a bit hyperbolic I'm sure, but this seems to go hand in hand with
the "culture fit" obsession with most interview processes. It's really just a
gauge of how "cool" and "likable" the person seems. Speaking from witnessing
it on both sides of the table.

------
fortran77
I'm 57 years old and work about 8 months/year in Silicon Valley (the rest in
Tel Aviv) I dye my beard (my head is shaved) and I've had work done on my
face. I'm careful to stay in shape, and not be overweight. It makes a big
difference in how I'm perceived.

~~~
TrueGeek
Is your username accurate or have you moved on from Fortran?

~~~
fortran77
We do CUDA/C++ mostly

------
lifeisstillgood
So SV is slowly becoming like other large industries - you win less in value
created than on internal politics - on impressing a VC instead of amazing a
customer, on impressing the boss not actually managing a SLA.

Perhaps it is how SV eventually fizzles out- it must happen sometime.

~~~
rchaud
SV has already fizzled out. The two biggest SV successes of recent times
(Google and FB) sell advertisements and surveillance services under the guise
of "connecting people" or "information discovery".

Its hot new bets are in food delivery and e-bike sharing. And even after
sinking in billions there, they can't figure out how to turn a profit.

------
aaron695
I find it interesting we know your name matters but we don't hear much about
changing it.

I know people from overseas for instance will pick a local name, but often
it's not optimised, just something picked slightly at random.

It's also fully reversible.

------
jchw
Really? I’m ugly as hell and I’m doing great. I also wouldn’t say my
colleagues are unusually attractive or anything. Silicon Valley feels like a
place where appearance matters _less_ than many places to me. Am I out of
touch?

------
sharadov
Really? I moved to the Bay area from LA and all I see are out of shape, badly
dressed tech workers. Blame it on all the free food and high-stress lifestyle.

------
justinzollars
I’m going to call bull shit. Im old by sv standards (38) and the only things I
worry about is the quality of my code and quality of my ideas.

------
oarabbus_
Be tall and attractive is _literally_ the advice people are giving in this
thread, and it doesn't even seem that tongue-in-cheek.

~~~
sdinsn
It's not tougue-in-cheek. Data shows that attractive people have better
careers.

------
newnewpdro
Appearing fit and healthy, _especially_ for your age, is like activating easy
mode for life in general.

I've yet to see a down side, other than losing the short-lived pleasures of
eating garbage food constantly. But the novelty of that wore off long ago, it
pales in comparison to an active and healthy lifestyle.

\- Formerly overweight/borderline obese person enjoying an ideal BMI for over
a decade now.

------
anon9001
I'm pretty convinced that the most important thing you can do for your career
after achieving basic technical competence is to be more attractive, both
physically and socially.

The reality is that you're going to have an easier time making connections and
getting access to opportunities if you're well-mannered, sociable, and
attractive.

~~~
LargeWu
Also, be tall, that doesn't hurt.

~~~
bb88
Interesting story about China and leg lengthening procedures.

[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&obj...](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10409409)

~~~
1996
Not interesting, just light on facts. It says the procedure is now banned for
cosmetic reasons after a few patients were "disfigured".

How where they disfigured, since the legs are as far apart as can be from the
face?

If it's the leg that looks ugly afterwards, can't the leg be fixed? Was there
a bone problem? An infection ??

I don't think I would go that fact personally, but if there was something
possible for the chest, I would seriously consider it.

Pumping iron can only take you so far. The bones underneath set the actual
limit.

~~~
bb88
No offense, but one of the weird things about HN in general is that commenters
can't find apparently relatively easily google-able facts.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/15/gender.uk](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/15/gender.uk)

~~~
1996
I read articles, but I don't google. Thanks for the link.

> Each leg now bears eight circular scars, each half an inch in diameter, from
> the screws that were removed. But now, three inches taller than before,
> Susan says she would not hesitate to recommend the procedure to her friends.

That is all I need to know. Patient satisfied, and would recommend the
procedure.

------
throw0x1away
Nothing new here? It's just a basic human factor? Not only essential for the
career, even interviews go a lot smoother if you are a pleasant to look at,
deal with. It's the first impression that gets you ahead. If you are competent
enough not to ruin it by talking, you are golden!

Still, surgeries is kind of extreme, but lets be honest, even some basic
things like a shower and deodorant can help a lot of devs.

------
thatfrenchguy
> Only the previous week, he says, he returned from a 10-day trip to Italy’s
> Amalfi Coast

We really need to start CO2 emissions from flying / day of vacation, because
10 days to Italy is really ridiculous.

~~~
maximente
assuming you plan to return does it matter if the trip is 1 day, 10 days, 100
days? you still have two flights.

~~~
longerthoughts
They were making a joke about the phrasing because it sounds like it was 10
days of travel to reach Italy.

~~~
Axsuul
Perfect example of a Dad joke, however.

------
1996
Based on my experience, the headline is right. The money I spent was dwarfed
by the extra money I made afterwards. It is just my own experience, but I
think it is a cool hack: look the part to get more money.

To give more details, after having studied skin care a bit with the help of
google scholar and reddit, I came to the conclusion that wrinkles are
multifactorial and due to: \- facial fat depletion :
[https://www.patelplasticsurgery.com/uploads/5/2/8/8/52880409...](https://www.patelplasticsurgery.com/uploads/5/2/8/8/52880409/12-anatomy-
aging-face-ppt-5-638_orig.jpg) \- change in the collagen structure, with less
elasticity, likely purely due to sun damage \- gravity pulling the damaged
tissue down

For facial fat depletion, there is fat transfer. For the effect of gravity,
there is facelifts. Both work wonder.

For changes in the skin structure however, I have tried non fractional CO2
resurfacing, which is said to be much more effective than fraxel. But it did
not give drastic results unlike the 2 others.

The article talks about RF microneedling. I wonder if someone here on HN
tried, and could comment about the procedure.

I'm thinking about doing that myself next time I travel. Other alternatives
are "vampire microneedling", where basically PRP is put on the skin then
microneedling is done in the hope that some growth factors will seep though.

The reddit skincare community is wonderful - lots of crazy smart people
digging article and testing on themselves, a genuine hacker spirit. I tried
one of their suggestions that seemed crazy at the time: acetylsalycilic acid
to reduce skin oilyness. It was so simple, so cheap, yet so efficient!

Now I am going to test a skin routine to fix my skin texture: niacin serum in
the morning, then sunscreen, and retinol at night, then moisturizer.

It's fun to consider the body has a computer than you can upgrad with
surgeries or hack with chemicals applied on the skin!

~~~
jelliclesfarm
PRP has good reviews. A friend tried it recently and said it actually started
baby hair growth near hairline..so I guess it basically increases blood flow..
If I had some spare change laying around, I would invest in cosmetic start
ups. Especially those that are non invasive. Ways to determine which procedure
is best suited for each person. AI to customize treatments. Etc. Phone apps
too esp with the really nifty cameras that come with smart phones these days.

Deceim ..a Canadian cosmetic company has affordable products and I am a fan of
many their basic products altho some are pretty hard core. I won’t use
anything with retinol for example. I work in the farm and under the sun. So I
have to be careful. Maybe when I retire from farming.

I agree. Body hacking is true hacker spirit. I encourage people to experiment
and hack away.

