

Your international web app gets ethnicity wrong - maxklein
http://blog.cubeofm.com/your-international-web-app-gets-ethnicity-wro

======
rsibue
I was following along when I came to the German list.

I highly doubt that any German would describe the ethnicities in German
society along that list, but still there was some truth in it (mention of
Turkish and Balkanic immigration.)

Then I came upon the French list, and I spilled tea on my keyboard ! (I'm
French.)

The CIA list apparently describes historical successive waves of immigration,
which is definitely not how people in the French society would describe their
ethnicity/identity. (And it's probably wrong in the same way for almost all
other societies.)

This doesn't even take into account the fact that the French political culture
actively discourages thinking one's identity in terms of ethnicity, and that
many French people (of all ethnicities) would find any mention of ethnicity
distasteful.

Particularly laughable in the French case is the "Celtic and Latin with
Teutonic" label.

The lesson is simple : when localising, get local help. Ideally from several
people, all of whom should both know their own society well, but also have
extensive foreign experience (it helps because everyone has blind spots
regarding his own society)

~~~
wheels
The list is sort of accurate for Germany, and the point still carries.

In Germany, the notion of ethnicity typically gets munged into nationality
even when it really means ethnicity. Specifically, "Ausländer" (literally,
"foreigner") is typically applied to someone not ethnically north-west
European, even if born in Germany, though not typically to someone like myself
(an American of north-west European stock). A Russian, or Pole, however, which
to American eyes would just appear to be another flavor of pasty white, will
often be noted as a separate group.

Part of that is codified in German nationality law which is still based in
_jus sanguinis_ , based on "blood", in contrast with _jus soil_ which is for
example used in the US, UK and France. For example, someone with Turkish
parents born in Germany must still be naturalized to become a German citizen.

What I noticed when first moving to Germany was that the concept of ethnicity
independent of nationality scarcely exists, throwing yet another curve-ball
into a site which is collecting such data.

By and large, as another commenter noted, Germany is fairly homogenous,
however in cities things do get mixed up quite a bit. Specifically in my part
of Berlin (Kreuzberg) there's a _lot_ of variance. (Probably the the
neighborhood in Germany with the lowest percentage of ethnic Germans.)

~~~
wheels
I decided to look this up and it appears that the law changed in 2000. Someone
born in Germany with a parent that is a permanent resident and has lived in
Germany for more than 8 years _does_ have automatic German citizenship:

[http://www.bundesregierung.de/Webs/Breg/DE/Bundesregierung/B...](http://www.bundesregierung.de/Webs/Breg/DE/Bundesregierung/BeauftragtefuerIntegration/Einbuergerung/Geburtsortsprinzip/geburtsortsprinzip.html)
(in German)

------
cstross
Point of note: "Asian" in the US seems to mean "China, Indochina, Japan". In
the UK it typically means "Indian subcontinent" (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).
(And black folks in the UK are _not_ "African-American" -- they're more likely
to be Anglo-Jamaican, but can also be, well, African. For values of "Africa is
a continent the size of both the Americas, with a population of around a
billion people, so you need to be more specific.")

Even where the same labels exist, they may be applied to something completely
different. And the meaning attached to such labels may differ significantly
(something that's insulting or derogatory in one culture may be descriptive in
another).

~~~
J_McQuade
That's stung me a few times, actually - when American friends of mine talk
about their interest in Asian cinema, there's still a slight mental delay
before I realise that they don't mean Bollywood.

Also, when I was at university, a black friend of mine went to study for a
semester in the USA and he found the amount of times that he was referred to
as 'African American' absolutely hilarious. He was born and raised in London
and his parents are Caribbean - making him, as you say, neither of those
things.

~~~
nandemo
So his parents _are_ "African-American" after all. ;-)

~~~
notauser
I know a woman who self identifies as 'African-American' because she was born
and raised in Tanzania.

Since she is 5'10" and blond this causes some problems.

~~~
tokenadult
_I know a woman who self identifies as 'African-American' because she was born
and raised in Tanzania._

If she would be identified as "white" in Tanzania, as appears to be the
implication of your post, she doesn't fit the United States definition of
"African-American," which is a synonym for "black."

[http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/85867...](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/858679-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-7-a.html)

------
michael_dorfman
_Everybody_ gets ethnicity wrong. There's no such thing.

It, like many other things, is culturally determined-- but (and this is a big
but) it is almost always contentious between cultures, and often within
cultures.

Not only is there no good universal set of ethnic labels that will satisfy
everybody, there's likely no set of local labels that will satisfy everybody
in a given area.

I can't think of too many good reasons to attempt to collect "ethnicity" in a
web form, but if I were going to, I'd make it a text field, and let people
enter whatever the hell they want to.

~~~
barrkel
I'm not sure you read the post. The post makes the same points you do, but in
a different way; and it answers your question as to why you would want to
collect "ethnicity".

------
nandemo
Wow, do people simply translate their dating websites and expect to get away
with it?

American ethnicity categories don't make much sense even in the US. I hear
that all Brazilians are considered "hispanic" there, even though Brazilians
don't speak Spanish and are a linear combination of (native) Indian, European,
African black, Arab and East Asian. Well, of course official Brazilian
categories don't cover all of this. They are: "white", "brown", "black",
"indian", "yellow". Obama is "brown", by the way.

Apart from ethnicity, lots of things have to change when localizing a dating
website. For instance, in Japan the ethnicity field is mostly irrelevant.
Japanese websites simply assume everyone is Japanese. If you're doing a
website for Japanese and foreigners, you would use "nationality" instead. For
foreigners X foreigners, you'd probably need separate websites for each group
anyway.

On the other hand, in the Japanese Yahoo dating site there are fields for "my
income" and "desired partner's income". Of course, that wouldn't translate
well in many parts of the world.

~~~
tokenadult
_American ethnicity categories don't make much sense even in the US._

Agreed. The United States Census Bureau itself says "These categories are
sociopolitical constructs and should not be interpreted as being scientific or
anthropological in nature."

 _I hear that all Brazilians are considered "hispanic" there, even though
Brazilians don't speak Spanish_

Not by the federal definitions.

[http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/85867...](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/858679-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-7-a.html)

There is a college recruitment and scholarship program for Hispanic youth that
includes Brazilians, but usually the "Hispanic or Latino" ethnicity term only
includes people with cultural ties to Spain. See the linked thread for a link
to the full definition and more FAQs about the issue of Hispanic ethnicity.

------
CrLf
I found that first list interesting, in that I couldn't fit myself into any of
the categories (besides "other").

I'm not black, asian or indian. I'm not an hispanic. I'm white, but only if
not comparing to a german, or a norwegian.

I guess I could fit as a "spanish" on the German list, although I'm not
spanish. I'm portuguese, but I could very well be italian (which is also on
the German list).

I guess ethnicity is _very_ hard to get right. Unless someone is really "dark
black" or a "blonde white" it is very difficult to classify, and even then,
you can't just go by on "black" and "white", you have to give more details.

That's just goes on to say that ethnicity is bogus. However, in the context
described by the article, it is an important piece of information. Maybe it
should just be free text.

------
tokenadult
There's a really detailed FAQ about the United States categories here,

[http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/85867...](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/858679-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-7-a.html)

with considerable discussion about the edge cases of the categories and the
policy behind categorizing at all.

------
Tichy
"Your DATING app gets ethnicity wrong". What other apps need ethnicity?

~~~
_pius
Why do dating apps need ethnicity anyway?

~~~
jrockway
Because some people have preferences for certain ethnicities, and putting
yourself into a certain group means people can search for that group and find
you more easily.

Yesterday there was a rant here about how people shouldn't prefer to date
members of certain races, but the reality is that people do. (Next thing we
know, we'll hear that it's unfair to only date people of the opposite sex.
"Excluding 50% of the population is barbaric!" Only on HN...)

~~~
_pius
_Because some people have preferences for certain ethnicities ..._

I should note that my question was more of a thought exercise, somewhat
rhetorical.

 _Only on HN..._

That's ironic. As intelligent forums go, HN is probably the easiest place to
get bashed for arguing that diversity is useful, tolerance is a virtue, or
that racial bias exists. It's a practical guarantee that some wannabe
Objectivist will come out of the woodwork to claim you're being too
politically correct if you believe any of those things.

------
whalesalad
Sounds like the best way to solve this issue would be a visual chooser? Like
looking through a small grid of icons with people smiling. If you chose female
previously the icons would be girls, and vice versa for male. If I click the
blonde haired white dude, you know I'm a kid from southern california.

------
louislouis
Solution : Let's users add their own ethnicity or select from list of other
user added ethnicities.

~~~
slig
I think that this would result in a large number of fragmented categories that
would make the searching/matching hard.

~~~
axod
You do have to wonder why people are restricting searches to their own
'ethnicity' whatever that means, in the first place.

Why not just stick with the facts:

    
    
      * What color skin do you prefer [white / tan / bronze / dark ] etc
      * What countries of origin are you interested in
        [Africa / Jamaica / England / poland / ukraine etc etc
      * What religion
    

I guess I just don't really understand what race/ethnicity actually means and
why it's important to anyone. I don't know/care what my own 'race'/'ethnicity'
is.

~~~
defen
> I guess I just don't really understand what race/ethnicity actually means
> and why it's important to anyone. I don't know/care what my own
> 'race'/'ethnicity' is.

It's fine if you don't know/care what your own ethnicity is, but to say that
you don't understand why it's important to anyone strikes me as moral
posturing, or an Asperger-level lack of empathy with other people. Some
possible reasons why people may care about their own or their partner's
ethnicity:

1) Knowing their susceptibility / children's susceptibility to genetic
diseases.

2) Wanting their children to be raised in a certain culture

3) Wanting a partner with certain shared experiences/world view

~~~
axod
Those are all good reasons. But I don't think trying to package that stuff up
into a tag 'race/ethnicity' is useful.

------
eliot_sykes
As author suggests, okcupid could just remove the ethnicity category. Simplest
solution is often the best. If you want people to know your ethnicity you can
just put it in your profile I guess.

------
scorciapino
As a Brazilian, I consider very offensive the american difference between
Hispanic and White. Were iberian europeans somehow lesser than north
europeans?

No matter the answer, non-hispanic whites are ignored and the term is now used
to designate people from latin countries - I, myself, being the product of
german and italian "whites", have been called hispanic more than once.

~~~
tokenadult
_I consider very offensive the american difference between Hispanic and
White._

Reading the official United States federal definitions

[http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/85867...](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-
admissions/858679-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-7-a.html)

carefully will show that the Hispanic category is an "ethnicity" category, the
only ethnicity category in the federal classification scheme, and "People who
identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race" by
the federal definitions. (In the federal definitions, Brazilian people are not
included in the Hispanic or Latino ethnicity category anyway.)

------
ErrantX
The idea of ethnicity has become intrinsically associated with race - and
therefore skin colour. Hence the common categories.

EDIT: added "has become" rather than "is"

~~~
maxklein
Mostly in the United States. In mono-racial societies, ethnicity has little to
do with skin color.

~~~
ErrantX
ok, to clarify I meant in terms of websites/webapps.

