
Fighting Depression by Staying Awake - tekacs
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fighting-depression-by-staying-awake/
======
GavinMcG
I'm all for news about novel treatments to common difficulties such as
depression. That said, it would be best if there were substantive support for
something before it's spread around as a solution.

Especially given the reproducibility questions that have come up in a range of
fields lately, it seems a little premature to publish this anecdote. Even more
so because this is exactly the sort of thing people may try at home.

This time, that might not be so terrible. And there is the disclaimer that you
shouldn't pull an all-night without clinical guidance. But that's not likely
to be heeded, and it's a bad practice to be contributing to in terms of
scientific literacy and trust.

~~~
benevol
> this is exactly the sort of thing people may try at home.

I would actually _strongly urge_ people who suffer from depression to
experiment (while observing and adjusting diligently) with all kinds of
things. Usually, when you suffer from depression, it's because you have lost
some sort of balance - a happy life is about a rich mix of a lot of things,
and sometimes you need to search and experiment to discover what is/was
missing in your life for too long (and no doctor is ever equipped and able to
give you the full solution you _personally_ need).

So go on, experiment and search until you find your way back to your
equilibrium.

~~~
DanBC
> I would actually strongly urge people who suffer from depression to
> experiment

Do you say the same about eg cancer?

> (while observing and adjusting diligently)

Depression is an illness that affects a person to observe and adjust.

~~~
corin_
Depression isn't cancer. That's not to be confused with making light of it, or
saying it isn't an illness. "Experimenting" won't be easy/doable for everyone
suffering from depression, and for many people the experimenting should be
done with the help of one or more professionals, but ultimately experimenting
is all you can do. Maybe that means trying different antidepressants until one
works for you, maybe therapy, maybe life changes... depression affects
different people differently, and for different reasons, and it's common
knowledg that different people need to treat it in different ways.

~~~
DanBC
> and it's common knowledg that different people need to treat it in different
> ways.

Sure. Parent poster is suggesting people with a potentially fatal illness try
experimenting with random hallucinogens.

Doesn't that strike you as irresponsible?

~~~
corin_
I was responding specifically to what you quoted, and didn't commit to memory
your parent's comment - which I guess has now removed the mention of
hallucinogens. (I do remember seeing "LSD" when skim-reading, so not
questioning your assertion that it was mentioned.)

As to specifically experimenting with hallucinogens: there's growing evidence
that they can be helpful in treating depression, from anecdotes to studies -
most recently, a couple of days ago:
[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/01/magic-
mushro...](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/01/magic-mushroom-
ingredient-psilocybin-can-lift-depression-studies-show)

Should people be recommended to try these sorts of drugs without proper
guidance and likely supervision? Generally I'd say no. But if they can provide
people with the help they need, and the legal system doesn't allow for a
formal way of using them, I do support people discussing their use, ideally
with disclaimers about potential risks and how to use as safely as possible.

------
benevol
If you suffer from depression, don't rely on only 1 method (therapy, mindful
meditation, the Wim Hof method, nutrition, sleep hygiene, yoga, spiritual
quest, sports, meds, etc.), combine as many as you can, especially if you're
in a deep hole. Certain psychedelics such as psilocybin [0] and LSD (very
similar) do have a positive effect, if you have fully educated yourself on the
matter and follow each and every one of the rules.

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/01/magic-
mushro...](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/01/magic-mushroom-
ingredient-psilocybin-can-lift-depression-studies-show)

~~~
Fricken
That's all good if you have the blues. When I was clinically depressed just
putting on my shoes was too much effort. Chewing and swallowing food was
exhausting. There wasn't really a cure except to wait until I was ready to
start climbing out of the hole I was in. Once you have at least a rudimentary
capacity to self-actualize, the rest is gravy. Use the Wim Hof method, become
a whirling dervish, it doesn't matter so long as you're reinforcing that you
have the ability to do anything at all.

~~~
benevol
> just putting on my shoes was too much effort

It such cases, you clearly need one of the chemical kickstarters mentioned
above, but, if you can, avoid those that "require" you to depend on them long-
term.

If you wait too long, you risk reinforcing your "depressive neurological
pathways", thought patterns, etc. and it may become much harder to reverse the
spiral.

------
romanows
tl;dr, sleep deprivation can help quickly alleviate symptoms of major
depression but symptoms return after a few days. Author thinks that using
light therapy may extend the symptom relief, long enough for antidepressant
meds to start working.

Wouldn't bother reading the article, honestly, it doesn't go into details on
any of this.

------
stared
Maybe it works different for different people, but for me hallucinations and
paranoia induced by heavy sleep deprivation (then into some existential dread
panic + strong derealisation) were a trigger for depressive episodes
(especially during my religion-losing phase in my life, but not only).

I don't mean sleeping too little, but not sleeping at all for a night or two.

I know it is anecdotal, but for this reason it seems that taking this advice
may be risky for some.

------
EpicBlackCrayon
I'm currently sitting in an airport after just getting back from Seattle. I
had an interview for an internship with Microsoft. It was proably one of the
best experiences of my life. Alone, in a big city, everything paid for, you
couldn't beat it. Leading up to it, though, and after it I have had some of
the worst thoughts, doubtfulness, strife, pain, and headaches that I have ever
felt. I couldn't concentrate when reading, my appetite was way out of wack,
and I really couldn't sleep at night. I haven't been able to sleep at night
for a while now, perhaps a few months, and I'm tired of it. I lay there and
toss and turn, and even when I do sleep I don't feel refreshed like I used to,
or a refreshed feeling lasts only for a few minutes after I wake up. It's a
little scary to think that this crept up on me without me even noticing.

I trailed away a little there, sorry about that. Anyway, I always like to
leave "red-eye" when I go on trips. I'm only 19, this is only the second time
I've ever flown, but I quite like red eye. Because I made the decision to do
that, I'm inadvertently pulling an all-nighter. I hope it works out.

~~~
hiddencost
I've found that all nighter euphoria kicks in around 30 hours. It's nice as a
momentary reprieve, and gives you a notion that you can feel different, which
gives you motivation to get better. But if you're legit suffering from major
depressive disorder it still takes years of hard work.

On the other hand, if you're experiencing acute anxiety, this approach ends up
hurting more than it helps. Try meditation, yoga, massage, muscle relaxation,
exercise. Pretty much anything that gets you more in touch with your body.

------
dakull
I know this is highly anecdotal but for me reading the works of Nietzsche,
Camus, Cioran, Kierkegaard et al does help in moving me a couple of steps back
from getting myself into that deep dark hole from which it's really hard to
climb back.

I guess reading (not necessarily just philosophy) can have a cathartic effect
and thus relieving some of the symptoms of depression.

And clearly, having a good therapist to talk to when nothing else works.

This may sound cliché but the "trick" is to try being aware of that threshold
and when you pass it take some action or better yet stay away from it as much
as you can using whatever works for you.

------
Kenji
I think this is very very dangerous advice. So much so that I flagged this
article. Sleep deprivation is harmful in most cases and is very likely to
worsen depression and work performance significantly (not to mention - you
shouldn't drive cars and operate heavy machinery when you're deprived of
sleep, it has similar effects as being drunk). Don't do sleep deprivation. Get
your sleep schedule in order, rather than devastating it even more.

~~~
zepto
I assume you have no evidence to support your idea that sleep deprivation will
worsen depression.

The fact that depression is correlated with poor sleep doesn't support your
claim.

Telling people to get their sleep schedule in order isn't likely to help
either. Some people might have control over that, but there is no reason to
suppose that people with depression can simply change their sleep schedule any
more easily than anyone else.

For what it's worth, when I experienced depression, even a temporary interlude
from it was valuable in working out how to get out of it.

~~~
Kenji
Sleep deprivation helping with depression is among the dumbest things I've
ever heard and "doctors" who advise this strategy and harm people as a result
should be held liable as harshly as possible. I am serious: This idea could
cause serious harm. You have to be highly educated to be this far from common
sense and the real world.

~~~
zepto
Again, you have stated no evidence whatsoever to support your desire to
violently censor the spread of an idea.

I am simply asking how you come to this intensely held belief?

~~~
Kenji
Sleep deprivation is torture. This has been clearly established and the
evidence of harm that sleep deprivation causes is so vast that I'd rather not
continue discussing this. "Eviduuuuuuuuunc! Prove that which is common sense!"

~~~
zepto
Forced sleep deprivation can certainly be used as torture.

Nobody anywhere at any time in this discussion has suggested doing this to
depressed people.

Common sense means not using absurd misinterpretations.

------
etiam
Nice to see. I was surprised to notice it's already been so long since we had
the post with Terry Sejnowskis chronicle on the topic.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1251879](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1251879)

------
seibelj
Completely anecdotal, but my depression and severe anxiety was put under
control with healthy diet, exercise, mindfulness practice, and a low dose of
Lexapro. I was very hesitant to use medication but it totally changed my life.
Hang in there if you are struggling, I know it's so hard.

------
DanBC
> nor should people try it without a clinician's guidance.

Sleep deprivation increases some people's risk of suicide.

> She was hesitant—but then again, she was already sleeping poorly, so what
> did she have to lose?

It may have made her suicidal, and she could have lost her life.

It's great that he's doing some research (because there doesn't appear to be
much around at the moment) but it's a bit worrying that he's writing this
article as if this treatment works before the research is in. Especially
because mainstream media is going to report this as if bright light therapy
and sleep deprivation definitely works as a treatment for depression.

~~~
benevol
> Sleep deprivation increases some people's risk of suicide.

Got a source for this?

~~~
DanBC
It's not a controversial claim!

The Link between Suicide and Insomnia: Theoretical Mechanisms -
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3791319/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3791319/)

> Insomnia has been established as a risk factor for depression and mental
> illness for decades, but a growing body of evidence has recently exposed
> insomnia to be an independent risk factor for suicide that encompasses all
> age ranges. This discovery has invigorated investigation to elucidate the
> relationship between insomnia and suicide, and over 20 studies reinforcing
> this association in adults have been published since 2010 alone.

~~~
benevol
The link with insomnia is pretty clear, because it's a structural, long-term
and uncontrolled problem. But I'm not sure that (controllable/wanted) short-
term sleep deprivation can be directly compared to it.

------
Neliquat
Where is the science? I see a method, but no study.

