

Ask YC: In the hack of life, is it the people or the code?  - cowmoo

I am currently a college senior who upon gotten rejected by YCombinator (made it past the 1st round, didn't make it beyond the interview), have decided to take on another project. Hey you might have even heard of it, it is called life.<p>The first time I tackled on the project of life was during high school, when I decided to quit Computer Science. I was frustrated by those surrounded me, who cared about U.S News &#38; Report college rankings than the possibility of the subjects that we were learning then. Too often, we talked about too a bland thing - maybe we were all not-so-very-daring, conversations centered around homeworks, college, computer games and sports, and not upon the philosophy or the very core of human affinity for another that I was searching for. I felt that I was isolated from the mainstream society - like Bobby Fischer tinkering on an abstract chessboard in his head - what's the point if there's no one who could appreciate the beauty of the algorithm as you do?<p>So I went to a small, non-technical, liberal artsy college, bent on starting afresh. For the first two years of college, I tried to meet as many interesting people as I could, people, for a lack of a better phrase and to plagiarize Jack Kerouac, burn, burn, burn. So I went to hipster parties, concerts, and have had many a late-night conversation with someone, I meshed in the "social scene" of college, I had made lots of friends - I have met a few amazing people whom I could relate closet ever in my life. I daresay that I felt even happy for a time-being, except not. It was like a second language to me. I was fluent in the social subtleties, what to say at what time, but I said it like I was in a sheep's clothing - like I was LAMP developer forced to use .net tools for money. I hated that I couldn't be my true self, that I had to dress a certain way, that I had to have a specific set of approved outlooks and opinions, that I had to attend or do certain activities identified with a sub-culture, just to fit in.<p>So I decided to start all over again, and start programming again. I re-discovered the joy of striking it on your own, building something concrete out of just a trace of inspiration in your mind, a itch that you just wana scratch, doing it because you want to do it, not to placate anyone else. But at the same time, I alienated myself from all of my friends - in my cocoon of midnight bliss of hacking, I could care less about the everyday social small talk BS or superficial parties filled with even more superficial people. But always, after finishing a big project, I would hit a wall because after initial ecstasy, because I realize that I had been staying in my room for a whole week straight and haven't had talked to anyone for a long time.<p>I realize that my little tirade sounds a little bit like "Catcher in the Rye," the CS major edition. But I would like to know your experience as a hacker/programmer living in the real world filled not with news.yc/slashdot people, but with regular people.<p>In the hack of life for happiness, in the long-run is it about the people or the code?
======
swivelmaster
Well that just inspired me to finally register on this site after just lurking
for six months.

I went to San Francisco State and got my degree in film. Now I'm coding AS3
and RoR and doing UI design at a web startup. I discovered at some point after
I graduated that a hobby is not the same as a passion - I like movies, but I
love making cool things. I didn't have enough passion for movies to actually
stick with the process of making one... nor did I love movies enough to be
willing to work for other people doing insignificant tasks for free (or pizza)
for three years to build a reputation... So I started going to events, meeting
people, and reading everything I could about business, communication,
technology, innovation, etc.

Right now, I have a great job building cool things. I come in whenever I want,
I work roughly as many hours as I think I should, and then I leave. Some
weeknights I go out, either with friends or my girlfriend, and weekends I try
to stay away from all forms of work as much as possible. This balance works
out pretty well - I feel like I'm accomplishing a lot and working towards a
big goal at work, and yet I feel like I still have a social live and am, you
know, "living". On Monday mornings I do not dread going into work. I feel
refreshed and ready to tackle new problems.

So... your rant does sound like a Catcher in the Rye variation. It also sounds
like stuff I used to write - usually completely privately, occasionally to
friends - about my own life.

It's never about "code". And it's not about "people". It's about balancing the
pursuit of your ambitions and the pursuit of gaining life experience. For some
people, whose ambitions involve climbing mountains and/or starting a family,
those two things are one in the same. For most of us, they're not. So you have
to separate yourself from work so you can keep in touch with life.

And then, if your job does not fit with your ambitions, do it well enough not
to get fired :)

If you're driven enough to apply to YC, and you were good enough to qualify
for an interview, you've got something going. Don't give up on your ambitions
just because you think other people are having more fun than you.

~~~
cowmoo
Thank you for your kind words. It gives me a lot of perspective from someone
who has "been there, done that";

Also, btw, it takes a lot of guts to admit that you used to too write "Catcher
in the Rye" stuff that I just wrote now, ;-).

~~~
swivelmaster
Haha, you're welcome.

I know it sucks to hear this, but I get the impression you're probably younger
than I am, and a lot of this uncertainty can only be sorted out with time,
age, experience, etc.

Maybe a few more failures, too. It took some really annoying stuff happening
for me to get completely out of film stuff (and music stuff too - I used to be
really involved in local music)... and it was incredibly liberating.

One of the big things that got me going in my current direction was the book
The Art of Innovation. That may only be inspiration for people into product
design, UI, etc. (like me) and not necessarily for CS nerds... just a
suggestion.

~~~
cowmoo
I may be a CS nerd, but hey I can roll with the cool kids, too ... you know. I
could do RoR and I am pretty good with Photoshop that I could too design
websites with rounded corners.

But seriously, I am pretty interested with design and will definitely check
out your recommended reading.

~~~
swivelmaster
Hey, I didn't mean that in terms of anything being cool or not cool, just that
peoples' minds work differently. I know plenty of programmers who really don't
care about design at all (even though they know it's important) and would
rather shoot themselves than spend an hour redesigning an interface when they
could be coding NEW FEATURES! :)

------
menloparkbum
You probably just need a girlfriend (or a boyfriend). Getting laid on a
regular basis makes all your imaginary existential issues disappear. Unless
you're a character in a french movie...

~~~
cowmoo
Thank you menloparkbum for pointing out the true core of my problem.

~~~
mrtron
I would argue it will only make those issues disappear for a short time.
Knowing yourself is a precursor to any successful relationship.

~~~
hugh
At the very least it will distract him for a while. And when the relationship
ends he'll have a whole new set of issues to keep him occupied. Eventually,
your imaginary existential issues will vanish by your mid-20s anyway.

My advice to the original poster is to print out a copy of that big long rant,
and keep it in a drawer somewhere. Look at it once a year or so. When you get
to the point that you can't read it without wanting to travel back in time and
slap yourself for being so whiny and self-important, you'll know you've
outgrown those issues.

------
alex_c
I've often felt that many News.YC-ers are more introspective than I am, but
this goes above and beyond.

Does the choice have to be so binary? People or code? News.yc/slashdot people
or regular people?

I program, but I don't filter my relationships through this one fact. I am who
I am, I get along great with some people and can't stand other people. It
doesn't have to be much more complicated than that.

~~~
JohnN
You are right, the choice doesnt have to be so binary....

I come at this from the other perspective. I was a business guy who has learnt
some hacking and got into the whole startup thing about 2 or so years ago.
Nearly all my friends are non-hackers, they laugh at me when i receive tweets
and think I am crazy and raise eyebrows when I make some programming joke.

But you know what, underneath it all they kind of envy me because I have a
palpable passion which many of them lack. They see that for me, life is not
something you endure its something you enjoy. I have recently made more hacker
friends and have great conversations with them...

But ultimately the people i get on best with are the entrepreneurial types.
They can be selling lemonade on the road or trying to do the next big web
thing, they dont have to be hackers and so i would suggest you broaden your
pallet. Look for those kind of people.

Mix and match and you will be happy. I am sure u can have friends who have
little interest in internet startups but still get on well with. I just hope u
have something more to you than internet startups.

------
andr
What I do is keep on programming, etc., but mostly keep non-geeks as friends.

I also tried the "hide your inner geek" thing, but in the end I seem to do
better socially when I'm open about my interests (although I did lose a few
people that I was friends with only on the base of common partying and
clubbing interests).

The reason is simple - being an entrepreneurial programmer is one very
distinguishable feature about you, especially in liberal art schools. If you
look around you'll see that most people your age don't have something very
unique about them.

For example, I only told a few friends about my startup, but the word spread
out quite quickly and everyone is excited about it, calling me to check how
things are going, etc. Somebody else got that McKinsey job, which is also
cool, but that's not what people are talking about over drinks at the bar.

~~~
cowmoo
Hmm, it's good to hear the two cents from the founder of the Feel Good
Initiatives. I am a big fan of your project.

I am also staying in Boston (near Beacon Hill) for the summer, and slightly
off topic but not really, what are the cool stuff that hackers could do in
Boston?

~~~
andr
Actually I've never spent a summer in Boston although I've spent 4 dreadful
winters here. You could drop in on summer classes in MIT. You could go to the
beach - Crane Beach is pretty good, Revere Beach can be a little white trash.
Unfortunately there aren't many good places to work out in the open

Also, YC is obviously in town, so find somebody who'll get you in on a few of
the dinners and you get the speeches for free. :)

------
dusklight
Your question does not compute. I literally get a compiler error when I try to
parse it.

Look everyone wants to be loved. There is nothing wrong with that and it is
perfectly natural. But you gotta love yourself first, or the rest of the stuff
is going to feel empty.

So what I am saying is -- are you doing what you are doing because YOU love
it, or because you think you can get other people to love you by doing it? Did
you go to concerts and parties because you liked the music and the beer, or
did you go because you wanted people to think you are cool for going? Do you
want to start coding again because you love the joy of creation, because you
love discovering the elegance in ideas, or are you doing it because you
weren't able to be accepted by "mainstream" society and you are now trying to
get approval again from a different group?

~~~
cowmoo
Well put; I enjoyed your rhetorical question and will ponder on them in my
free time.

------
nostrademons
It's sorta an unfortunate fact of life that you can't have it all. You have to
make some tradeoffs. (And I don't understand all the people saying "You can
have both." I've tried, and I couldn't - at least not while doing anything
innovative. You _can_ have both if you're doing niche projects to serve a
particular community, but I'd imagine many of the folks here are more change-
the-world-or-die-trying types.)

Anyway, I think that in the long run it's about the people. But I faced pretty
much the same choice as you as a college senior. I thought about it a lot and
decided that when I was old and gray, I wouldn't be happy unless I'd at least
tried and saw what I could do if I concentrated fully on hacking. If it didn't
amount to anything, then fine, at least I gave it an honest go and had a sense
of my own limits. But I'd much rather do that then always wonder what I
_could've_ done, maybe.

So I figure I'll keep this up until I'm 30. If I succeed, great. If I don't, I
can have a normal, fulfilled life, surrounded by interesting people, and I'll
have full knowledge of what I'm passing up. The twenties are kinda a
professional wasteland anyway, when nobody really knows who they are or what
they want to do with their life.

~~~
cowmoo
Hey, thanks for your comment. I could understand where you are coming from -
it's reassuring to have someone tell me that "the twenties are kinda a
professional wasteland anyway," when I am on the cusp of graduating.

Can I quote you at my hedge fund interview this week? ;-)

~~~
nostrademons
Heh, sure, though I'm not sure you'd want to say that the twenties are a
professional wasteland at a hedge fund interview, even if everybody there
knows it's true. ;-)

(BTW, most of my hedge fund friends are quite happy with their lives. They
work fairly normal 9-5 hours, take awesome vacations, and make insane amounts
of money.)

------
Tichy
Like another commentator, I also get several compile errors trying to digest
your question.

For example "alienate my friends" gives a compile error: if they are really
your friends, being a reclusive from time to time wouldn't alienate them.

I have some friends from the arts scene, and my impression is that they are
under a lot of pressure to be special and artsy. What made you think that they
would be closer to life than hackers? At least hackers create something real,
whereas most art is entirely virtual (in the eye of the beholder).

If you are doing something truly cutting edge, it will probably always be a
lonely affair. Just try to find the right balance? You might also enjoy this
letter from feynman to wolfram: <http://elzr.com/posts/wolfram-feynman>

Personally, I guess I am already spoiled by my involvement with computers. To
me, people are "just" algorithms that run for a short amount of time, similar
to threads in a computer system. In the long term, individual experiences
don't matter much. In that sense, mathematics seem way more important to me
than daily human struggles. A new mathematical formula could live for
thousands of years. I am not sure about computer programs, but perhaps the
same goes for some of them. Certainly they can outlive their creators.

I am not saying that daily human life is pointless (who is to judge)? I care
about my people's happiness, too (including my own). I compromise to be
reasonably popular (ie I invest time in buying nice clothes). But when I
really think about it, mathematics seems so much more important and
interesting.

Also, there might be environments that are more suited to you (or me). I
imagined some universities to be like that, but it is hard or impossible to
get into there (for example complex systems research in Santa Fe, or
ycombinator). Trying to find the peer group where you really belong might be
the ticket nevertheless. I am not sure how to do it, but just because neither
the artsy people nor the hardcore hackers are for you, doesn't mean that there
is no other group that would be suitable.

~~~
cowmoo
Just wanted to say that I really liked the link that you have posted in your
reply, about the correspondences between Feynman and Wolfram.

------
DaniFong
There's a bipolar rhythm of life and work that's easy to fall into, but it
sounds like you need a break. There are very worthwhile projects that might
take only 10 - 20 hours a week that, if you live simply, will be more than
enough to get by. You can learn a lot from introspection in the remaining
leisure time. Make sure you've got your necessities taken care of: shelter,
learn to cook, get exercise, sunlight, make sure to hang out with friends or
at least _someone_ twice a week.

Sure enough you'll have the motivation to work on something again, maybe big,
maybe small. People aren't built for leisure, but enjoyable work.

~~~
cowmoo
Yes, I have got the "bipolar" part, no so much the "rhythm" part though.

But seriously, I see what you are saying. I have always been a all-or-nothing
kind of person, but maybe I should actually try this work-life balance thing
that I have been hearing about.

------
petercooper
Remember that the topic of "people" can be sub-divided. "People" does not mean
everyone (acquaintances, business partners, even good friends). It can mean
your wife / significant other, your kids, and your family. It can be "about"
them and not the "other" people.

In a subtle way I guess I've been like you, neglected social aspects and
focused on my business to the point where I only have a few firm friends. Life
is still not, however, "about" them. Life is about doing what I want to do,
but ultimately my wife, my (forthcoming) kid, and to a lesser extent, my
parents.

The trick in life, I'm finding, is to still have respect for people, try hard,
and be able to support yourself while you nurture the things you appreciate
most. For me, that'll be my ambitions and my family. Friends will be a bonus.
For you, perhaps, it's programming for now, and family later. Go with what
feels "nice."

------
wallflower
You are who you are. If coding makes you happier, make time in your life for
it. You have acquired the knowledge and experience (skills) to be social.
Sometimes you don't have to listen to the criticism you hear (especially if it
is coming from your own thoughts)

I hang around with a diverse group of friends. I find that the more interests
I pursue (improv comedy, entrepreneurship, triathlons) the more people you
meet. Some of them shape your life view; others are merely acquaintances. I am
always shocked to learn again that some people don't think obsessively and
analyze everything (a.k.a. analysis paralysis née nice guy née loner). One
positive aspect of being able to dive into coding is that you can always
exercise your creative mind and feel good, without relying on other people.

Life is not a measure of its longevity, but its complexity.

------
NowStreamMike
why does the last line sound like one of the voice overs from 'Sex and the
City', maybe 'Nerd and the City'?

Happiness is as happiness does. Be happy with yourself. Everything else in
life follows from that.

------
TrevorJ
Both. I'm a big fan of what Paul said (Paul of biblical fame :) ) He was all
about "All things in moderation". The idea that even the best things in life
can be detrimental if you go overboard with them is probably the single best
guiding principle I have found by which to live.

Sure, a week of coding without peeking your head out of your room isn't a bad
thing per-se but balance that with some socialization the next week. Things
tend to run in seasons and cycles for people like us who can get lost in our
current obsession. I think it's ok to dive into a mad rush to finish a project
or an idea, just be intentional about pulling back and balancing that out with
broader things when you are done.

I tend to find that reminding myself to try and focus on meeting somebody
else's need allows me to enjoy social occasions more, as odd as that sounds.
Letting somebody else complain to me about their week for 15 minutes might not
be all that interesting but being able to serve somebody else in that way can
actually be very fulfilling and as a whole, looking at social interactions
from that perspective can give you a whole new outlook on things. (again,
within balance)

------
izaidi
In my experience what works best is making friends you actually like, and
coding stuff that you and your friends want to use. Lots of reward and no
alienation.

------
randy
"There is no value in life except what you choose to place upon it and no
happiness in any place except what you bring to it yourself." \- Henry David
Thoreau

------
run4yourlives
Life? Dude, you haven't even started that project yet! College is just the
part when you think you may have an idea that life would be worth perusing!
:-)

Here's the secret: It is about the people; just not all the people, but a
select few. Who those people are and how they relate to you is something that
you need to discover on your own, however.

------
melvinram
The question you are looking for is much deeper than "people or code?".

You are really looking to figure out who you are and what you care about in
life. And this is not a simple answer. People usually have many parts/areas of
their "self" that they need to define as time flows on. Some of areas include
spirituality, profession, service, fitness, family, etc.

You have to decide what areas of your life are important to you and from
there, decide if the current state of those areas are what you'd like. If not,
you need to work on that area. You don't need a life revolution even though it
may feel like it. You need evolution. Keep parts of your self that you like.
Reinvent the rest.

Reminds me of a quote that goes something like this: "Life is like a movie...
You can either play an 'extra' in your life... or you can be the lead
character."

------
whacked_new
Code? You kidding? First off, the answer really shouldn't be either-or like
this. Second, I don't think it is normal to find happiness in code itself.
That's like asking the poet, "is it about the people or the words?"

I know you're getting at something, but don't frame it so rigidly, so early.

------
monological
One word....balance.

I struggle with the exact same thing, day in and day out. I have an 8 hour
job, which after I'm done with, go and work like a mad man on my startup,
coding away, brainstorming. I don't call people if I don't have to because,
deep down I have this almost insatiable itch to start a company and be my own
boss, work my own hours, be excited about what I do everyday, have more open
doors... The list is almost endless and the fact that I could one day have all
those things drives me to work even harder.

Alas, attention always needs to be given to family, friends and YOURSELF.
Otherwise you'll break down. You'll go crazy. You'll screw-up your
relationships and damage your health. Simply put, in the end, you are just
gonna be plain unhappy.

------
swoodtke
In the long-run, it's about balance.

It might take years to balance out but the balance must exist. I've done the
geek thing and I've done the social thing. They are both interesting for a
while but I always seem to eventually shift back to the center.

------
dmose
My opinion is if you can do what you love for a living, and get through the
tough times, it's worth it. Trust me, there is a very small fraction of
humanity that can actually "do what they love" and get through life... most of
them are fighting for basic necessities that we take for granted.

the rest are just mindless zombies doing the 9-5 grind just trying to
procreate.

Do what you love, worry about the rest later - it's all insignificant in the
end, if you ever doubt that, just look up at the sky at night and realize the
scale in which your perceived problems reside in.

------
noahlt
As Don Knuth put it, "Life is binary search."

~~~
shabda
[Citation needed]

------
babul
I am not really into YC all that much and bottom line have to say just do what
makes you happy and what you are possionate about and enjoy and don't worry
about others.

In time you will find your own path and there is more to life than many
introverted scenes we often find ourselves in. Expose yourself to a broad
range of things and hopefully this will lead to balance and perspective in
life. Involve yourself in just one area too much and although it can lead to
great things often it is at the social cost and danger of becoming too
introverted. Just my $0.02. :)

------
samratjp
Code without an observer is true beauty! Beauty in nature does not demand an
observer to beg for its act and beauty. Why should you demand an observer to
make a tom foolery or praise out of your code or people?

You cannot have code without people, so understand the people (hint: start
with yourself, you'll realize you are very much like "other people"; gulp
this, you will uncover more about anything)!

------
athloi
Why set up this dichotomy?

You don't have to hang out with the kind of people who go to "hipster parties
and concerts."

Follow the smarts. Smart people, smart ideas... smart code.

If you're asking, do you follow a path in life to make money off of code or
socializing with people, why not do both? Be a manager, technical writer, or
UI specialist.

------
edw519
Thanks, cowmoo, for your story. It could have been mine.

I too went to an "artsy liberal arts college". I majored in English for about
3 weeks. Then it was math forever. I was also fortunate enough to join a
social fraternity and had the time of my life (not just the parties, but all
of it including managing a small "business").

Upon graduation, I had 2 choices: continue on to pursue my PhD in math or get
my MBA and go into IT. As much as I loved math, it was an easy choice because
I had already discovered the answer to your question by then. It's both, but
mainly the people. A career in IT has given me ample doses of both and I've
never looked back. I was always afraid that if I had continued in math I may
have become a recluse again.

I love hacking into the wee hours of the night. It's so cool making something
out of nothing that only another hacker soul could understand. Sounds like you
do.

But just as much, I enjoy sharing my code and seeing people use it. Sometimes
when I write something particularly cool, I find myself thinking something
like, "I bet Jane will love this!"

Here's another question in response to your original question:

If your write the coolest app in the forest and no one ever uses it, does it
make a sound?

~~~
cowmoo
I'll respond in kind, with my favorite koan:

One day, the apprentice startup wanabe asked the master hacker, "does a dog
have true hacker-nature or not?"

The master hacker replied, "woof!"

------
jdavid
[http://www.ericjohnolson.com/blog/2008/05/01/iventures10-sta...](http://www.ericjohnolson.com/blog/2008/05/01/iventures10-starting-
up-in-illinois/)

you should give it a shot, you have till the 15th of may to apply.

------
Alex3917
"What matters is people. Which kinda sucks when you think about it."-- Hugh
MacLeod

------
chris_l
So what do you mean by the analogy of "the code"? Programming work
specifically, or your "artistic" work, or the way you go about life? I'm
afraid I haven't fully understood your question yet. But thanks for sharing.

------
babul
dont try to hide your inner geek. be happy in who you are.

~~~
swivelmaster
I completely agree with this. Provided you have good hygiene and don't dress
like a slob, that is.

------
chris_l
Here's a "zen" answer: do the right thing at the right time. Practicing
zazen/meditation can give you the balance needed to see what the right thing
is...

------
aaronblohowiak
code+hobbies and the people you find you like along the way.

make sure to stay physically fit. learning physical balance can help your life
balance. try slacklining.

programming is very brain-intensive. make sure to give your body its due, too.
the rest will fall into place over time.

------
kaens
It probably varies from person to person, but I'd say that the majority
probably need both.

------
shiranaihito
If you're only 20-something and already thinking about how to reach your
highest potential in life etc, I'd say you're well on your way to doing just
that.

You're sickeningly young (from the point of view of someone who's 31 soon),
and you have all the time in the world.

Heck, even I still have a twinkle of hope of making something worthwhile out
of my life.

At any given moment in time, just do what you feel like doing - especially in
your case, where anything you feel like doing is likely to be
productive/useful anyway.

As others have quoted all kinds of important people too, here's mine:

"Don't worry - be happy" (Bobby McFerrin)

:)

