
Tesla touchscreen wiper controls land driver with fine after crash - tomduncalf
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53666222
======
arusahni
Previous discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100)

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raiyu
Touch screens are horrible for frequently used controls in cars.

Any car you are in is traveling with kinetic energy, so it is likely to bounce
and move around over the road surface. Without a physical button to rest your
finger on it's nearly impossible to get something on the first "touch" unless
you are standing still.

Yes it looks cool, and yes it's fun to play with on a red light, but using any
of these touchscreens even at 50 mph is nearly impossible.

Made much worse if it's a sports car and has a bit of a stiffer suspension.

One step forward, two steps backwards.

~~~
catalogia
The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for
manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small
plastic parts for all the buttons, sliders, and whatnot.

However this makes me wonder: is it still cheaper when using a large expensive
panel like Tesla does? And even if so, what place do such cost-cutting
measures have in [ostensibly] luxury vehicles?

~~~
cma
> large expensive panel like Tesla

Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started
delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air
conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on
effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans
with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but
is not great environmentally.

~~~
sandworm101
The interior couldn't handle the heat of being parked in the sun? This is a
very basic standard. Every BMW, ford, Ferrari or Honda is tested in a chamber
with heat lamps. I cannot imagine any Honda engineer suggesting that the car
run the AC in order to protect the interior parts.

And it isn't all about the customer. Would one of these teslas survived on a
used car lot? Could it survive being transported across the country on the
back of a truck? A car that cannot survive direct sunlight is a logistical
nightmare.

~~~
detaro
A lot of what's "very basic standard" for other car companies gets ignored by
Tesla. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.

~~~
sandworm101
I understand the need to break conventions, but there is a heat advisory in my
area today. My Honda gets parked outside. And when things go wrong I
occasionally do 15+ hour shifts. I'd be screaming mad if I came out after one
of those days to find my car's battery was dead and the screen delaminated.
But that is why I bought a Honda. I cannot sync my ipod list with my google
cloud account, but it always starts when I ask it to.

~~~
detaro
Another example in the "bad!1" category is the flash chips in one of the
control units. They had logging enabled, and over time the control unit killed
its own flash chips by overwriting them too often. Needs the entire unit
changed, or finding someone who'll solder fresh chips in.

Where a traditional design would have taken care to run entirely from a read-
only storage, and if there is logging needed, to log to an extra partition
that doesn't stop the system from working if it becomes unavailable.

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rsynnott
This seems... odd, in that presumably the regulators allowed the car to be
sold with essential functions dependent on the touchscreen in the first place,
so it's strange to fine someone for accessing essential functions. IMO the
proper solution would have been to force Tesla to have a more sensible
interface in the first place...

~~~
amluto
I wonder if the driver could, in turn, sue Tesla. Tesla sold him a car without
legally usable wiper controls.

~~~
Bedon292
I doubt it, there were several legally usable options to allow him to control
the wipers without the screen.

~~~
amluto
What were they? According to the article, there were physical controls to turn
the wipers on and off but not to adjust the speed.

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mprev
Having had a Model 3 for eight months now, the interface is something you
learn to live with rather than ever feeling totally confident with.

The buttons etc are designed for a car that can run the wipers etc flawlessly
itself but the tech isn’t there yet.

~~~
acwan93
I read somewhere that the Model 3 was intended to be fully autonomous, which
was why the interface and look of the car is as spartan as it is. When the
autonomous tech ended up not being there (no surprise), Tesla kept the look of
the car as if the car were meant to drive itself.

This is probably why CarPlay and Android Auto still aren’t integrated, among
other reasons.

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bob1029
Every single engineer and executive working at Tesla right now needs to grab a
copy of The Design of Everyday Things and read it cover to cover before
returning to work.

~~~
dmitriid
Not just Tesla. Every car manufacturer. So far it's only Mazda IIRC who said
they are getting rid of touch controls. Meanwhile Mercedes Benz _proudly_
advertisers this crap:
[https://youtu.be/SuFE5x6fPqw](https://youtu.be/SuFE5x6fPqw)

~~~
BoorishBears
You do see the buttons that do almost everything you'd want to do while
driving on the steering wheel right?

Along with a voice operated climate control, you don't need to touch the
screen, ever

~~~
fanatic2pope
Did you actually watch the video? It clearly shows the driver being distracted
by controls on the touch screen to "share" media with a backseat passenger.
That's a terrible design that could easily lead to deaths.

~~~
BoorishBears
First off, it doesn't let you share media or most of the more advanced
functions if the car is in any form of motion.

Second... are you kidding me?!

A driver deciding to look down at their screen to share media while driving
would be blamed... on the infotainment, is that a joke?

By that logic you're also allowed to look down at your cupholder and count the
crumbs that have accumulated, that's a terrible design and the cupholder
should be mounted at your sightlines.

-

Normally I'm in the "putting screens in is adding unnecessary temptation"
camp, but please.

Personal culpability is still a concept.

MB kept all the stalks that make sense, they kept the steering wheel buttons,
they kept physical buttons for stuff specific screens. They did fine for the
parameters they're playing with, which is "Tesla has made not sticking a giant
touchscreen in your car not seem futuristic".

------
l3_
That's why I hate having to deal with touch controls in cars for basic
functions. I like having tactile feedback so I can control them without
needing to look, or just having a glance instead of having to focus navigating
through an interface. Don't get me wrong I love how smarter cars are getting
but some things just shouldn't be made "smart" imo.

~~~
zucker42
I don't think the main reason car companies are shifting more and more
functionality to touchscreens is because of the perception that they're
"smart". I think it's because touchscreens are cheaper, especially in terms of
development costs, since it's easier to iterate in software than hardware. I'm
not super knowledgeable about the field though, so maybe someone who's worked
at a car company can help explain.

~~~
throwaway29102
Mazda is ditching touchscreens, and I doubt they’ll be the last (if they
survive 2020).

Safety controls aren’t something that should be subject to “move fast and
break things.”

~~~
zucker42
I'm not saying the cost savings are necessarily worth it. I strongly dislike
the move to touchscreen interfaces in situations where they don't make sense.
I think cost savings might be a reason many car companies have chosen (IMO) a
clearly worse interface, especially if you look at it from the perspective of
an executive trying to decrease costs.

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jmacd
Tesla's automatic wipers are bizarrely bad. At one point Elon touted a new
neural net upload that was going to make them better, but they actually got
worse.

My Dodge truck has much better automatic wiper control than my Tesla.

~~~
foepys
That's because the Model 3 doesn't have a dedicated rain sensor but tries to
detect rain with the built-in cameras.

~~~
jmacd
Oh. Dear. God.

I wouldn't have guessed.

------
GhostVII
Tesla's touch screen interface is probably one of the worst interface
decisions in car history. It takes two taps on your touch screen to just open
a glovebox - in what way is that better than a handle, which is completely
intuitive, way faster, and usable without having to look at a screen. Or their
fans, where you have to use the touch screen to change their direction - why
not just have a tab you can move around like every other car. In my Honda Fit,
I can adjust the temperature and fan direction in about 2 seconds without
taking my eyes off the road. In a Tesla it requires me to look at a screen and
tap like 10 times to navigate the menus.

Touch screens are a much worse interface that physical interfaces in many
cases, especially when you are driving. I don't understand why you would take
away almost all feedback and speed from some control, and consider it
progress.

------
torpfactory
Not sure if everyone's familiar what is actually in the Model 3/Y.

\- The main mode of use is 'auto' which uses as its feedback sensor the
forward facing camera (I think only this location, but not 100% sure about
that) located where the rear view mirror attaches to the wind screen. It
covers ~75% of my driving without issue. I think there is a problem with that
sensor location as the boundary layer gets compressed near the apex of the
windscreen, resulting in better mass transport and a drier windscreen than the
part the driver looks through. This camera location is thus a laggy indicator
of rain because it tends to be one of the driest parts of the car. Personally
my experience with the this feature is a good advertisement not to get full
self driving yet: If you can only answer the question "Is it raining?"
accurately 75% of the time with cameras, you've probably got a long way to go
on FSD.

\- There is a physical button on the end of the left stalk. You press it to
get 'wipe once'. If you need to respond quickly to a sudden burst of rain or
the driver next to you goes through a big puddle, you can do that without the
touchscreen.

\- The physical button push also brings up the wiper control on the
touchscreen, which is otherwise behind one (non physical) button which is
always on the screen. The touchscreen controls include manual control of
wipers on/off/auto and wiper speed.

\- There is also voice control which seems to work fine. As with many voice
control systems, you have to say a specific phrase, which presents a discovery
problem: how do users learn that phrase unless they're the kind of people who
search out documentation on the internet. I'd also wager many drivers haven't
gotten used to the idea of voice control of car features so they're not well
utilized in general.

And for your consideration, my opinion: It works fine most of the time
(because I just leave it in auto), but I occasionally need to tap the physical
button to get an extra wipe. Sometimes when it is very lightly raining I need
to manually set the speed since the feedback system doesn't seem to do a good
job in that scenario. The touchscreen feels pretty accurate and responsive, so
I've never had trouble hitting the button while in motion. I think Tesla
should release a software update to let the user 'double tap' the physical
button to force the wipers 'on-high' for the rest of the journey.

~~~
ebg13
> _As with many voice control systems, you have to say a specific phrase,
> which presents a discovery problem: how do users learn that phrase unless
> they 're the kind of people who search out documentation on the internet._

The internet? The car doesn't come with a manual? Doesn't _every_ car come
with a manual?

~~~
torpfactory
It has a manual accessible through the screen, but most people just google it
anyways. I certainly did.

------
crististm
Regardless of the merits of touch control UI on cars (or their lack-of) it's a
stupid idea to fine the driver in this situation. Maybe the law enforcers want
to make an indirect point...

If the vehicle is _road legal_ (that is it has stop lights, breaks etc) then
it is assumed that it can be used legally on public road. If the touch
interface would make the driver break some laws then the vehicle should _not_
be road legal in the first place.

------
gpcz
From an ISO 26262 perspective, it seems like for the driving scenario of
"unexpected windshield wiper speed increase", they may have set the
controllability to C0 (Controllable in general) [1] when it may have needed to
have been something less controllable (C1 means 99% of drivers can avoid harm
in the condition, C2 means 95%, C3 means less than 90%). That probably set
their risk level to something lower than it actually was. They probably need
to do some tests for anything they're diverting to the touchscreen to figure
out how many drivers can manage the situation within the time frame of
avoiding a crash.

It looks like Tesla's job postings reference ISO 26262 experience as a plus
[2], but I can't get a straight answer to Tesla's adherence to it in-house. My
understanding is that no government mandates its use, but lots of car
companies adopt it anyway.

[1] ISO 26262-3:2011(E) Table B.4 [2]
[https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-
integrationengine...](https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-
integrationengineerchassiscontrols-65063)

------
marvin
Hope this prompts them to put the windshield wiper controls on a stalk or the
steering wheel. Never been comfortable with that part of the interface.

------
kaitari
I don't own a Tesla, but when it automatically enables the wipers, does the UI
on the touchscreen "adapt" to current conditions and bring the wiper speed
controls to the top level so it's one touch away? Or does the driver still
have to touch through N menus to get to it at all times? If so, that's a
terrible driver experience. :-(

~~~
radium3d
Model 3 owner -- when you press the quick wipe button on the left stock it
brings up the wiper interface menu to adjust the wipe speed and the auto wipe
button. It's very quick and only requires a short glance and one screen press.

One way to improve it would be after the left stocks quick wipe button is
pressed, let us adjust the speed with the steering wheel control wheel with a
volume based auditory click to indicate it's gone up or down. Although those
are used for volume and speed if cruise or autopilot is enables so it would
need to only stay in wiper speed adjust for a few seconds

~~~
foepys
> requires a short glance

Just as short as checking whether I got a text message?

~~~
radium3d
Shorter

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basicallydan
I have always wondered how Tesla is allowed to sell cars where the controls
are so touch-screen-heavy. It does seem far less intuitive and more
distracting than the convention for many controls.

I always assumed there was some rigorous usability test they’re required to
undergo.

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acd
I think device distraction is dangerous in traffic. The whole point is that
you as a driver or cyclist need to be aware of other traffic participants. If
you are distracted with a device you are not paying attention. Thus agree with
the court ruling.

It’s better with physical touch controls to control car functions.

Consider search depth, physical device control is direct access hash table.
But touch button interfaces are like searching through a list/tree so slower.

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jqpabc123
Misuse of technology --- technology that actually detracts from usability.

Provide essential info and control in the simplest possible manner. If you
feel the need for additional gadgetry, use voice recognition and response ---
something with minimal distraction from the essential task at hand.

------
air7
"Tesla touchscreen wiper controls land driver with fine after crash"

These headline-esque sentences are very hard to parse without context
sometimes. It took me ages to figure out this one. It's a small hobby of mine.

~~~
exclipy
The wiper controls the land-driver? Glad they clarified it wasn't the sea-
driver.

But don't worry, it's fine. It was not damaged in the crash.

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throwaway29102
I don’t know how anyone who has ridden in a car and used a capacitive
touchscreen could come to the conclusion that the two should be combined in
one product. Especially for controlling safety features.

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t0mbstone
The stupid touch screen controls on the Tesla are the one and only reason why
I refuse to buy one (and I have test driven a number of them and love
everything else about them).

------
goshx
This was discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100)

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unlog
Theres seem to be a hardware button to turn these on and off. The solution
should be simple: \- Long press to turn on and off. \- Press many times to
change speed.

~~~
Bedon292
Short press is wipe once, long press is spray cleaner to wash windshield
currently. I would like to see double tap to turn on or something. Or what
about tap it and then one of the scroll wheels on the steering wheel to adjust
speed. Not great, but would be possible with the hardware they have.

~~~
unlog
Could also be same as I said but very long press to spray cleaner.

------
remote_phone
I hate the arrogance of the Model 3 that everything should be touchscreen.
It’s very dangerous to do even the simplest things while driving, like turning
off the fan. You have to find the right location on the touchscreen and then
hold it down for a few seconds. Trying to change the direction of the fan is
basically impossible to do safely while driving. Things like those should have
been physically things like knobs that people can change safely without having
to look.

~~~
kgwgk
At least they didn't put the pedals and the steering wheel on the touchscreen.
Yet.

(By the way, we're in 2020. Weren't we supossed to get self-driving cars
without pedals and steering wheels by now?)

~~~
mathw
Well it is a Tesla, you can buy it with "Full Self-Driving" so surely it
doesn't actually need any pedals...

------
ape4
I looked into getting a Tesla but decided against it because of the all
touchscreen UX.

------
bluthru
I find it inexcusable that Teslas don't have voice commands.

"Tesla, slow down the wipers."

~~~
rootusrootus
But they do?

The voice recognition is a bit sub-par IMO, but I can control the wipers by
voice if I want.

