
Software on Steam - mxfh
http://store.steampowered.com/software
======
fromhet
Some people seem to fail to understand that Steam is yet another package
manager, but this time filled with only non-free stuff, in a way that has so
much DRM it's unusable in any ways but the intended one.

Steam on linux is, I think, a big problem for us. There will be dpkg (or
whatever your distro chose). This one will install apps in a way that is
consistent with the system, and with POSIX. Then, there will be steam. Steam
is used because it is the only way to get apps people want. I do not own a
game I paid for on Steam. Not even in the way I own non-free apps like Alfred
or Ableton Live. I don't have a right to use them, I am merely allowed to do
so.

I understand that it is in Valves interest to lock us down like this. But in
this case, their interest is against ours, the users.

~~~
lifeformed
That's just a side effect of their business model - it's fairly evident that
it's a higher priority for them to provide a great user experience than to
lock them down.

Just yesterday I was reminded of this, when reformatting my computer and
reinstalling everything. I forgot to deactivate keys on some of my work
software before doing so, and spent hours emailing to get them back.
Meanwhile, the whole license/ownership concept of all my games on Steam was
completely abstracted away through their install-anywhere-as-many-times policy
and Steam Cloud.

~~~
Ntrails
One day I hope that I will be able to link all my DvDs and music and films
into a steam style library, and stop caring about backing them up, and keeping
the sodding disks.

Regardless of horror stories about banned accounts, the steam model is one I
find infinitely more attractive than even itunes.

~~~
reitzensteinm
My cofounder lost about a thousand dollars worth of games when he bought Left
4 Dead 2 via PayPal.

PayPal, as it sometimes does, reversed the transaction due to its fraud
detection systems, through no fault or instruction of my cofounder.

So Steam locked the entire account, permanently and irreversibly. It wasn't
even an option to pay the $50 by another method.

I still buy Steam games, but only on sale.

~~~
petitmiam
This sounds extreme. What was the response from steam technical support?

~~~
reitzensteinm
That _was_ the response from Steam technical support.

They were basically assuming fraud; which is what buying a game, receiving the
goods, then issuing a chargeback (or PayPal equivalent) would be.

He patiently explained to them that it wasn't initiated by him, but they
pretty much stonewalled him.

Apparently having done a thousand dollars worth of business already without
incident wasn't enough to get the benefit of the doubt.

------
avolcano
The most incredible thing about this is that these applications can have
achievements, DLC, and _even Steam Workshop support_.

Check out Game Maker: <http://store.steampowered.com/app/214850/>

\- Different components sold as DLC
(<http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/214850/>)

\- Achievements (<http://steamcommunity.com/stats/214850/achievements>) for
things like "run a game on iOS" and "1000 debugs"

\- Created games can be put on the Steam Workshop
(<http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse?appid=214850>), which is
INCREDIBLE when you think about it!

~~~
rodly
What is incredible about achievements for anything? It's an interesting way to
keep users engaged and committed. How is it "the most incredible thing"
regarding Software on Steam?

~~~
singular
Not to be too off-topic, but this sort of instant nasty cynicism is all that's
wrong with HN of late. One of the rules of this place is 'be polite', would
you respond like that to a stranger in person?

This kind of reaction makes me not want to read/comment/submit at all.

I'll take the inevitable hit in karma to say my piece. You probably didn't
mean to be rude, but it comes off to me at least as very much so, intended or
not.

~~~
mikeash
His questions don't appear the least bit rude to me. They are certainly
_direct_ , which some people confuse for rudeness, but it looks like an
entirely honest line of questioning. Honestly, I'd like to know the answer
too. What makes achievements incredible?

~~~
olliesaunders
It’s rude because avolcano is clearly excited about this premise and rodly is
just ridiculing his/her excitement. There’s no objective basis to what is
incredible.

~~~
ekianjo
"Incredible: so extraordinary it seems impossible".

I do wonder what is so extraordinary about having achievements in apps and how
this would be a very difficult thing to technically achieve.

~~~
olliesaunders
I’ve got: "Incredible: difficult to believe; extraordinary"

------
just2n
Warning: read the Steam Subscriber Agreement
(<http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/>) carefully. You don't
own a license to any software you "buy" in Steam.

As nice as Steam is to use, being able to download software on any computer in
a fairly simplistic manner and to get reduced prices from time to time, I'm
not convinced that giving up the right to own things you purchase is a fair
price for that convenience.

~~~
modarts
Simple solution: don't use steam if you don't like that tradeoff.

~~~
Shivetya
It used to be I could run some Steam related software offline, as in no
internet connection. I seem to have lost that ability. I do not remember when
the change was made but it makes me leery about buying ANYTHING through Steam
and there are some games I want that are connected to them.

If I buy a BOXED copy of a game I expect it to work without any other need
other than the machine I install it on. This crap about requiring an internet
connection is ridiculous. I have the discs, I even have the key still. Yet it
will not run because my connection is down or worse their server is? (and yes
Steam has had authentication issues)

~~~
saraid216
Someone on a different thread said that Steam developed a DRM rep due to
having an online requirement that has since been removed.

I can't verify this at the moment, but no one has corrected the other poster
yet.

<http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=4604431>

~~~
pmh
Steam has (and has had for a while) an offline mode, but it doesn't work
reliably for some. If you go through the release notes for the Steam client
over the past few years, you can see instances of Valve "fixing" offline mode.

You also have to be online to download, install and launch a game for the
first time.

~~~
saraid216
There _are_ some games that require you to be online, but that's not universal
enough to make it Steam's fault. Similarly, the notion that you have to be
online to download from the Internet seems to... uh.. make sense.

That's a lot different from the DRM claim, I think.

~~~
throwaway64
those statements were not about specific games, they were about steam itself,
offline mode is very broken for many people.

~~~
louhike
I had problems in the past but it seems to work correctly now. Has someone a
close example of problems with it?

------
engtech
I am looking forward to buying hats for my photo editing software.

------
notum
And suddenly, for me, Steam turned from convenient to creepy.

Nobody's pulling anyone's hand now or was before, but imagine being locked out
of your work suite because something happened to your Steam account. And there
are plenty of horror stories about whole game libraries lost because of a
single paypal transaction (or dispute).

No thanks Valve, I'll stick to harmless Christmas sale games.

~~~
batiudrami
In fairness, their policy changed (about 6-12 months back), that if there's a
transaction dispute, you're locked out of only the game with the dispute (and
temporarily banned from buying new games). You can still use your existing
ones.

------
baq
...in before "why gaben doesn't like windows 8" - he wants steam to be a
direct competitor to microsoft's app store, google play, netflix, etc.

~~~
debacle
I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's more that he sees the
moral hazard in the OS vendor also being the only official store on the
platform.

~~~
FredFredrickson
Newell has a store that is essentially competing with and which will probably
feel pressure from the existence of a built-in Windows store. It's a pretty
easy logical step to take to assume that he is mostly against it because of
these things, and not because of some ephemeral high-mindedness about how
things ought to be done morally, which he hasn't exhibited in any other way.

~~~
icebraining
That's what debacle was saying. Moral hazard is a term from economic theory:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard>

------
ayi
now i can clearly see that why "windows 8 is a threat" statement come.

------
thwarted
Whoa, the shapes and layout of the content of the GameMaker screenshots/images
brought back memories of Garry Kitchen's GameMaker[0] which I used to make a
balloon racing game using the stock sprites from [1] and the background from
[2]. The game might have been one of the instructional ones, because now, 27
years later, I can't conceive that I came up with the idea for a game like I
remember it being.

[0] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Kitchen%27s_GameMaker>

[1]
[http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/G/Gary_Kitchen%27s_Gamemaker...](http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/G/Gary_Kitchen%27s_Gamemaker_7.png)

[2]
[http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/G/Gary_Kitchen%27s_Gamemaker...](http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/G/Gary_Kitchen%27s_Gamemaker_2.png)

------
gknoy
I find it interesting that nearly all the software listed, initially, seems to
be art related. ArtRage Studio Pro just ended up on my wish list, because that
looks like tremendous fun.

Now, if only I could easily install these apps outside the steam folder. My
main drive is getting full.

~~~
tomku
> Now, if only I could easily install these apps outside the steam folder. My
> main drive is getting full.

The current Steam beta has support for multiple installation folders. It's a
little rough right now, but it seems like something they plan on polishing up
and releasing eventually.

Source and more info: [http://www.neoseeker.com/news/20791-latest-steam-beta-
allows...](http://www.neoseeker.com/news/20791-latest-steam-beta-allows-for-
multiple-installation-folders/)

~~~
Valien
I can confirm that the new beta lets you select which directory/drive to
install files on. It's a great change and let's me start filling up my 2 TB
drive instead of my C drive!

------
Havoc
I wish they would split it though. Valve doing software is awesome, but Steam
is pretty sweet right now & they shouldn't mess with it.

That being said, of all the only companies I probably trust Valve the most to
not screw over people and/or mess it up.

------
gpmcadam
It would be nice to see this potentially lead to an app store for Steam Big
Picture[1]. At the moment, I think that's one huge thing it is lacking.

Sure, I can load up YouTube or Netflix in the browser. But the interface is
clunky and buggy, the video playback is choppy and it often simply crashes Big
Picture.

Adding apps, I think, will make it a must-have living room device for gaming,
browsing the web and consuming media. And the possibilities from there are
pretty much endless.

[1]: <http://store.steampowered.com/bigpicture/>

~~~
FredFredrickson
Steam / Big Picture will never be "must-have" for living room use until they
can make it compelling and easy for people to use in that environment.

But that goes against the whole reason why they are popular in the first place
- the fact that they are primarily a PC game store, and their customers like
playing games with the devices typically attached to their computers, like
mouse and keyboard.

------
ZoFreX
I really don't feel this is a good fit. Steam is not particularly great
software, it's just one of the best ways to get games onto your machine. It
has a lot of competition in the general software market, and plus it doesn't
really feel like we need another one.

What really kills it for me, though, is that Steam's model just does not fit
software. Want to edit a document on your PC, but left Steam open on your
laptop? Well, you've got to walk over to your PC and log out first. That's a
(barely) acceptable trade-off for games, but for productivity software it's a
ludicrous proposition.

~~~
VladimirGolovin
I use Steam from about 5 computers in different physical locations, and it
never asks me to log out the way you described. I just log in on the machine
I'm currently using, that's all.

~~~
ZoFreX
Oh, ok - this has changed since I last tried it. I still don't think it's
brilliant that you can't have your software open on more than one machine
(several years ago you could at least have Steam open on multiple computers if
they had the same external IP).

------
llimllib
It's strange that at least one app in that list has a Mac version available,
but it isn't supported on Steam.

------
barbs
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm confused. I was under the impression that you
could only make iOS apps on a mac, but the listing for Gamemaker: Studio iOS
shows that it's only compatible for Windows PCs. Can someone explain this
witchcraft??

------
sp332
There are some rough spots, like on this page
<http://store.steampowered.com/app/214850/> the different versions are
labelled "Downloadable content for this game".

------
niggler
what's steam's cut on these apps? 30%?

~~~
RKearney
This information is not publicly disclosed and differs from developer to
developer and is based on sales volume amongst other things.

------
sergiotapia
As long as they sell software using their tremendous discounts usually found
on Steam, they will have me as a customer. I doubt we'll see any mainstreams
applications on there though.

------
ntaylor
Clearly, Steam's web interface is not fully-prepared to handle non-games. They
use the word "game" throughout the store page for all of these products.

------
bootz15
Why not? Makes sense. Can't wait to see the deals.

------
martin1b
Wow. That was quick. Good move Valve!

------
AshleysBrain
So how do we submit our own software to Steam? Greenlight still appears to be
games-only.

------
jmount
Steam down right now?

------
ChrisNorstrom
Achievements for software are actually quite clever. They encourage a person
to learn and explore more areas and options than they normally would. Thus
understanding the software better and getting more out of it.

I'm a bit excited because I'd really like steam to become a general digital
marketplace for downloadables+installables. I've blabbed on about it over a
year ago [http://www.chrisnorstrom.com/2011/03/re-envisioning-steam-
pa...](http://www.chrisnorstrom.com/2011/03/re-envisioning-steam-part-1-an-
all-in-one-digital-marketplace/) but never thought I'd in any way be accurate.
I didn't really believe Steam would dabble in TV, Movies, Music, and Software
a year ago. But now, after seeing source-filmmaker, and video, the rest might
just follow. Valve may one day hold the keys to a digital empire similar in a
way to how Amazon and ebay hold their own keys.

------
kevingadd
Games getting bumped below the fold by software [1] is probably going to make
some game devs upset. Hopefully Valve comes up with a solution for that.

I can see there being tension, though, because Valve wants to drive their
traditional audience to software, but doing so may cannibalize impulse game
buys that might have previously happened from a game being on the first page.

[1] <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1643240/newreleases.png>

~~~
cube13
New releases are listed in chronological order. So a dump of of non-game
software would, naturally, push games down the queue.

