

New Yorkers: help me defeat the evil NYC real estate market - rentenforcer
http://www.rentenforcer.com
Hi guys<p>I am an NYC based hacker who has had enough of dealing with the horrible process of finding and getting an apartment.  One of the major issues you have is that you can only trust what the broker tells you to be true, ie "trust me, this is a good deal."<p>I have a solution: collect the rents of people in the city, and get a general idea of how yours compares (or how much you should be paying for a neighborhood if you are planning on moving).<p>Right now the app is very simple: it's just collecting data.  Ultimately I'm not 100% sure how I'd use the data, but it would likely be open/free via an API etc. on top of my product.  One vision I have is something like a Yelp.com but for real estate.<p>I am open to your ideas, and I'd love to get any feedback about the idea you have (I know the site itself isn't much).  If you are a New Yorker, I'd really appreciate if you could take 30 seconds and fill out the form.<p>Thanks!
NYC RentEnforcer
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zavulon
This is a good idea, but maybe there's a way for you to display some data
before signing up? Right now, there's nothing on the site at all except for
the form requesting my information. After I submit it, there's a message
there's not enough data for my address, and a request for email. At this
point, it would be helpful to see what exactly I'm signing up for.

Maybe examples for different addresses, or average data per neighborhood? I
recently was looking for a new apartment, and I found this very useful:
<http://www.tregny.com/manhattan_rental_market_report>

~~~
rentenforcer
I definitely hear you - this is actually just an idea I had last night and
just wanted to get some data. The response has really been pretty decent (I've
got about 150 pieces of usable data).

My next step is to figure out exactly how to use the data. I will likely start
with neighborhood pages, and move on to individual building pages once the
data gets dense enough.

But I would love to hear your thoughts on product ideas - what info would you
like to see? What comparisons/analytics on the data you know I have?

Thanks a lot for the feedback! RentEnforcer

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thinkalone
Well, as your friendly neighborhood real estate agent: What do you feel is so
"evil" about the NYC real estate market, aside from using it as a provoking
headline?

Apartment prices depend on the move-in date - an apartment may be rented at
significantly less than its current market value if the tenant has been there
for 10 years, while someone who just moved in to the identical floorplan will
be paying quite a bit more. Comparing this smattering of prices is unhelpful,
and is exactly why rental reports like the one linked above are based on
average and median prices for apartments currently on the market or recently
rented.

~~~
furyg3
"What year did you move-in" is a good question to add to this page.

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asanwal
Like the idea. Think you need to figure out a way to get people who are happy
to submit data. Like Glassdoor, I'd guess that the unhappy are more likely to
provide data. Especially true for folks in the city who feel they have a great
deal - why would I advertise that and tell others about that?

Beyond that, didn't like the fact that I provided data and got a "no data
available" page. I understand your building up the dbase, but it didn't leave
me with a great feeling (not a biggie). Perhaps you could show me some data
for close by areas so at least as a user, I feel like I benefited somewhat.

On amenities, would add -- Doorman building

At some point, you could perhaps mash up data you get about buildings with a
lot of the data NYC has opened up about the city as part of its gov2.0
efforts. This way, you can provide a sense for the "value" of an apartment
alongside stats like average income of neighborhood, crime rates, etc.

But of course, building up your dbase is priority one. Good luck.

~~~
thinkalone
> At some point, you could perhaps mash up data you get about buildings with a
> lot of the data NYC has opened up about the city as part of its gov2.0
> efforts. This way, you can provide a sense for the "value" of an apartment
> alongside stats like average income of neighborhood, crime rates, etc.

Already got some heavy competition in that area: <http://nyc.everyblock.com/>
<http://streeteasy.com/nyc> <http://www.trulia.com/>

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weeksie
I love the idea, finding an apartment in this town is a harrowing experience.
It's even worse for newbies who don't know the market and often get stuck with
overpriced apartments like the ones Jakobson Properties rent out. What do you
plan on doing with the data you're collecting?

//edit: On your amenities list, you might want to add a field for duplex
apartments.

~~~
rentenforcer
I'm not 100%, and I turn to HN for ideas. I will likely be providing a free
search/compare service for apartment lookers, and eventually charge the
landlords to manage their page or something. But any ideas you have I'd love
to hear. Ultimately I'd like to make some sort of API to the data (ie: destroy
the gatekeeper to this information that makes the market so hard for
consumers), but that will likely be secondary to the main product.

~~~
weeksie
I'd suggest taking the trends from TREGNY (but not the actual values, as they
are skewed high). Then taking scrapes from craigslist, leaving off the
outliers, and then fitting those values to the trend curves and adjusting
based on the input you get from your form. There's a bunch of data out there
already, might as well use it in conjunction with what ever you're doing right
now.

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ck2
Great idea but do this for future-proofing while you still can:

<http://nyc.rentenforcer.com/>

then one day you can grow, ie:

 _chicago.rentenforcer.com_

 _boston.rentenforcer.com_

etc.

for now you can map _www._ to _nyc._ to keep inbound links

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dguido
If you want to help New Yorker's, you're going to have to make an option for
"0" bedrooms, as that is quite common around here :-).

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rentenforcer
Hmm...I figured those people would select 1 BR and hit the Flex/Studio
checkbox, but I guess that's not so clear? Maybe I should make it 0/Studio ->
5+ and then change the Flex/Studio checkbox to just Flex? Thoughts?

~~~
wan23
I had a hard time deciding whether to check the "Flex" box or not. I live in a
1 br/sort of 2br and I was trying to decide if it should be 1/Flex or 2/Flex.
Should the number of rooms you choose include the sort-of/flex BR?

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carbocation
"Where do you want to live?"

It would be nice to be able to put in neighborhoods instead of street + zip.
E.g., "Upper West Side."

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wildjim
Where's the London version? ;-P

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rentenforcer
Just started this project this morning, but the goal is soon! Once I get a
decent product working for NYC it shouldn't be difficult to branch it off into
other cities.

~~~
alextp
Also, every friend I have who tried to rent an apartment in São Paulo either
failed or ended up with something wildly overpriced. If you could make this
generic enough to use in other countries/cities it'd be great.

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MichaelApproved
Am I being a nitpicking nerd or does "(100% anonymous & confidential)" seem
wrong when asking for my street address and probably logging IP and possibly
other data?

I haven't tried to use it but what I've read in the comments here you also ask
for email address.

Confidential, maybe. Anonymous, unlikely.

~~~
rentenforcer
Wrong and wrong.

I don't log any data other than the date besides what you put in the fields. I
also don't connect the email address to the listing, it just goes onto a
mailing list.

For now it is confidential, though I'm not sure how to reconcile the idea of
an API with confidentiality - even when anonymity is involved. Perhaps I
should just change it to 100% anonymous?

~~~
MichaelApproved
The only reason I even cared about it was because you stated it. It made me
think this information SHOULD be kept private and think twice before letting
it information out.

Does that message even need to be there? Is anyone concerned with it? Might be
be better to put the message at the bottom instead. Those who care will look
for a statement like that and others won't be distracted.

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elai
If I've never lived in NYC, or am planning to move there, there is no way for
this to be useful to me. Let us see the data once you've gotten enough without
putting anything in. Or do it glassdoor style where you only partially see
data.

~~~
rentenforcer
Definitely agree, this will be the next step. The project is about a day old,
so I'd love to hear your thoughts on what directions it should go in.

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daveyb100
Yes, there's a problem with this UI. People who are curious will plug in any
data just to see the results. That will result in your data being 'polluted'.

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udfalkso
Add dishwasher to the list.

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theashworld
1\. opensource it (the code, so people can build their own website) 2\.
provide an api

You'll soon face spam issues though. what's your spam strategy?

~~~
rentenforcer
Likely community moderation.

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HaloZero
Couldn't you scrape craigslist at least for some basic information about each
neighborhood?

~~~
rentenforcer
I easily could - the whole point is to avoid taking the information from the
marketplace. The prices on craiglist are borderline fraudulent, and are meant
to get you into the broker's office at which point they inform you "oh sorry
that apt is gone, but here are 5 more that aren't as nice and twice the
price!"

~~~
thinkalone
> The prices on craiglist are borderline fraudulent

The most attractively priced apartments advertised on CL are on there because
they _are_ great deals. There are thousands of people looking for the cheapest
apartments, and when someone rents it, that means 999 other people get to hear
"I'm sorry, that apartment is gone." Obviously I understand the frustration,
since I've been on both sides of those conversations, and there _are_ some
brokerages that put out shady ads, but nearly all rentals are on the market
less than a week, and smart landlords price their apartments so well they are
rented within a day - just because apartments get rented is not evidence of a
mass conspiracy.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
I've actually had "ok" experiences finding apartments on Craigslist. However,
here are practices that bug me:

\- brokers and rental companies ALWAYS post in the "by owner" section. I've
had agents from Citiapartments actually pretend to be the "owner!"

\- brokers post in the "no fee" section but there are always fees.

\- no photos... because everything that's a decent deal is also a dump.

\- "Net Effective" rent prices in the listing. It's listed at $1700 but that's
the "Net Effective" rent not taking into account your 2 months free after 14
months and waiving the fee we didn't tell you about which means that you're
really sending us a check for $2150 every month but really, trust us, it's
only $1700.

~~~
thinkalone
Brokers advertising as "by owner" should be reported, and if fee apartments
are advertised in "no fee," those should also be reported. (Honestly,
management companies are allowed to split off and have their own brokerage, so
that they collect fees by renting the apartments they already own, and in that
case they would advertise in "by owner," but it sounds like you were speaking
of something different.)

Not having pictures is directly related to how fast apartments are rented -
sometimes it's simply not reasonable or possible to gain access and go take
pictures of an apartment before it is rented.

Net effective is slimy, but not prohibited, as long as it's labeled properly.

For what it's worth, I never advertise without photos and have never used net
effective prices, which is my personal decision, but it still bothers me when
people extrapolate from a few bad ads or ads they think are misleading and
then disparage the entire industry. The real CL scams are much worse than what
people are typically paranoid about real estate agents doing behind the
scenes.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
It's not a few bad ads, it's like every third ad. I went through 15
experiences like what I described above and gave up and found my current place
through a friend. I don't find it that "slimy." I just figure this is New York
and that's how everything works... there's always some middleman trying to
screw you. It's what the entire economy of the city is based upon.

As far as I can tell, almost every price listed by a management company for an
apartment in a new development is "net effective," whether they list it as
such or not.

~~~
thinkalone
It's disappointing to hear that you had such a bad experience, and if you're
searching at certain price points I can see how you'd hit a bunch of brick
walls when trying to find an apartment - having inside knowledge, whether it's
through a friend, working directly with a management companies, or having a
broker who knows what you are looking for, is always the best way to find a
place.

> As far as I can tell, almost every price listed by a management company for
> an apartment in a new development is "net effective," whether they list it
> as such or not.

You're right - new developments and management companies are the ones who
thrive on advertising net effective prices. They are not officially "brokers,"
so they are not held to the same guidelines and restrictions that brokers are,
and they operate in an uncomfortable gray area when it comes to advertising on
CL.

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klbarry
This has fantastic potential. Good work!

