
Ask HN: Feasible Alternative to the MacBook Pro? - ryanmccullagh
The MBP is by far the best laptop I’ve used. The graphics are amazing, and the touchpad is ergonomic. However, Apple has demonstrated their inability to be reliable. I bought my MBP in January of this year (2019) and tomorrow I’ll pick it up from its 3rd repair. I’ve grown tired of this repair routine. And after the 3 years runs out, they will start charging me.
======
mherrmann
I switched from MBP to a Dell XPS 13 with Ubuntu. I compare the experience to
living in a hotel vs. living at home [1]. In a hotel (=on Mac), everything is
stylish and cared for, but you have very little freedom to change things. At
home (=on Linux), you need to do the dishes yourself but there's no external
agenda. It's simply yours.

I'm very happy with the switch. Though I'm on (Debian+) Xfce now instead of
Ubuntu and would go for a ThinkPad instead of the XPS, because 1) I want a 14"
screen 2) the XPS's fan is too loud, especially when Skyping 3) the XPS's
camera is placed at the bottom of the screen instead of at the top, so people
you have video calls with look up your nostrils.

[1]: [https://fman.io/blog/home-and-hotel](https://fman.io/blog/home-and-
hotel)

~~~
cytzol
> In a hotel (=on Mac), everything is stylish and cared for, but you have very
> little freedom to change things.

I've heard this over and over — that Macs are locked-down, uncustomisable
machines — and I don't agree with it at all.

I use replacements for almost all the built-in apps. I use a custom launcher.
My editor config Git repo is approaching ten years old, and my shell config
Git repo is almost eight. There are standard interfaces to per-application
Preferences and keyboard shortcuts. When I sit down to use someone else's Mac,
I have no idea how to use it!

What changes am I missing? The only thing I can think of is that I can't use a
different window manager or a different kernel, but I'm fine with those
already.

~~~
robert_foss
There's no real package manager. You can't rebuild your kernel. You can't
upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with
an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well.

~~~
new_realist
“You can’t rebuild your kernel.” Are you kidding me? Apple supports the
hardware it ships on day one, then provides free updates until the device is
obsolete.

If you must rebuild Apple’s OSS kernel, you can follow the instructions here:
[https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...](https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/build/build.html)

~~~
omnifischer
what means device is obsolete?

Do you mean i3 cannot handle general browsing tasks?

Please read
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence)

~~~
derefr
It means "until the third-party developers in the OS's application ecosystem
have changed their definition of 'state of the art' to include the use of
enough new layers of bloat that old devices can no longer run the newest
[versions of] apps."

An obsolete laptop is the same as an obsolete phone: it's one where it chugs
when opening Spotify, or Slack, or any other "nobody ever bothered to optimize
this" app that everyone uses anyway.

Or, to put that another way: you can certainly retouch photos in GIMP, or even
in Paint Shop Pro 7 on Windows XP. But what if you want to use seam-carving in
your photo-retouching? PSP7 ain't got that. Once you know that your _use-case_
dictates a modern version of some memory-hogging software, well, that
constraint dictates what kind of computer is "obsolete" or not for you.

------
cranium
It saddens me that Apple used to make (almost) perfect laptops – price aside –
and it's no longer the case, leaving a bunch of geeks looking for a
replacement. In 2017 after searching the market, filtering on required specs
and reading reviews, I came to the conclusion that there are no perfect
laptop: every time there's a compromise to be made.

For me, I had requirements that were previously met in the MBP: good battery
life, good processing power, and not too bulky. I didn't really care about
camera or touch screen or fingerprint reader. Based on this, I finally found
the Dell Precision 5520 which is the workstation version of the Dell XPS 15".
Everything was configurable (OS, CPU, GPU, RAM, battery, screen) and with a
good build quality and small form factor. Ubuntu 16.04 LTS was an option,
meaning drivers were configured and supported by Dell – a relief, after some
experiences using Linux on laptops years ago. Now I've changed the OS to
Manjaro, added a 2nd RAM stick for a total of 32GB, configured a bit the power
settings with `powertop` and I'm really happy with my portable powerhorse
lasting >10h when coding.

As for the Dell client service, I happened to use it a month ago because my 2
years old battery was now swollen. As I took the 3-year warranty extension
"Next business day", I called on Monday and Tuesday the technician was there
to change battery and touchpad (that can sometimes break when the battery
swells) and it was all. Fast and convenient !

~~~
ryanackley
Here is an anecdote on Dell laptops. I have an XPS 15. I too had a swollen
battery and I got it replaced while it was in warranty. It swelled again about
a year later. Seems to be a design flaw in either their laptops or their
laptop batteries.

~~~
mgamache
me too, I purchased a 3rd party battery from amazon and so far so good...
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0748BRHH4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0748BRHH4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

~~~
heavyset_go
Going to put a blanket warning about buying battery replacements on Amazon. I
bought a replacement battery on Amazon that was a Chinese knock-off. It barely
holds a charge and started swelling within a few months. I don't think it
would be safe to bring on a plane.

~~~
Rapzid
Amazon basics high capacity AA rechargable used to be made in Japan. People
speculated they were rebranded enloop based on specs and charge profile.

I just ordered a new batch and they are made in China! Same product
description, same picture with the old label, and same good reviews(though the
recent reviews are now warning of the change and complaining of quality
issues).

Amazon is now gaming their own review system. Supposedly Amazon is under heavy
scrutiny over Chinese batteries in general and are getting sued by insurance
companies.

------
emilsedgh
X1 Carbon is a really nice device. Its pretty reliable, Linux friendly and has
no spyware installed like some other Lenovo lines.

But no matter what laptop you pick, its gonna take you a couple of weeks until
you are comfortable with it. But it will happen eventually. Laptops have the
same interface after all.

Switching the entire software stack from Mac to any other OS is probably the
main struggle.

Try a couple of Linuxes or Windows for a few weeks until you find the sweet
spot. Between Mac, Windows and major Linux distributions, there is none that
is objectively better anymore(for developer experience). Its a matter of
preference and habit.

~~~
yoloClin
I used an X1 for a few months. It took me a fortnight of rage before I
discovered you can switch fn and ctrl in BIOS. after that I really liked it.

I'm going to be in the market for a new <= 14" soon but want more ram than the
X1 carbon offers. A T490 caps out at 40gb and has decent specs on paper, I'd
be interested to hear others' thoughts on the model though.

~~~
disposedtrolley
I recently purchased a T490 and it works reasonably well with Linux. My model
has the base 1080p display rated at 250 nits, and while resolution and colour
are no match for an MBP, the display surprisingly gets bright enough for some
outdoor use.

Build quality is solid and keyboard is great. Speakers sound pretty rough but
get decently loud. I got maybe 7-8 hours of use with the screen at 60%, and
alternating between coding in Emacs and watching some videos.

I've tried Manjaro and the latest Ubuntu 18.04 LTS and have had no issues that
would be a deal breaker. The only annoyance is jittery movement with the
TrackPoint, but I've had that on every modern ThinkPad running Linux. I've
been leaning towards using the trackpad more often and it seems to work okay.

~~~
faizshah
Same, I bought a t480 but I went with POP OS. I bought it to see if I could
switch to linux.

On the plus side its a solid and stable dev machine, iterm seems slower than
the linux terminal. Rubymine, pycharm etc are stable. Google cloud shell
freezes in browser sometimes but firefox quantum and chromium work pretty well
otherwise. It also works great with my uhd monitor even tho it doesn’t have a
dedicated graphics card.

But, I encounter screen tearing a lot on web pages. The trackpad is horrible
in comparison to a macbook pro. There is some pretty nice support for multiple
workspaces but they dont have the amazingly useful trackpad gestures.

I honestly feel like if there was a thinkpad with a trackpad as good as a
macbook pro 2012 then there would be no problem switching.

~~~
mdtusz
Learn to love the trackpoint and when you go back to a MacBook you'll be sad
it's not there.

~~~
disposedtrolley
The trackpoint is kinda crappy on newer ThinkPads. I'm not sure what they've
changed, but movement is always jittery under Linux for me.

My X230 is buttery smooth. The X1 Extreme and T490 I've tried, not so much.

~~~
faizshah
That's been my experience with my new t480. I wonder if there's some other
drivers that could make it smoother?

------
fortran77
Windows 10 on good hardware is very, very nice.

My advice is "don't fight windows". I've seen many people try to make Windows
like Unix. Don't. Use Windows versions of things, not things compiled under
Cygwin or MinGW. Learn to use Powershell and Powershell scripting language.

I do development (C/C++/CUDA/Erlang/Python) all day long on Windows 10 and in
addition use desktop applications like Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative
Cloud.

No problems whatsoever. My main machine -- a Surface Book -- has had no
issues. It sleeps, hibernates, manages power, perfectly. The keyboard feels
good and is dirt tolerant. (I also have a lightweight travel notebook -- a
lenovo yoga -- that "just works" though it's a little underpowered for major
development work)

~~~
gherkinnn
Have been working on Windows machines (C# ftw) for a while now.

I hate it. Everything.

Kafkaesque configuration UIs, horrible window management, mouse acceleration
is off, font rendering is atrocious, the updates make me unreasonably angry,
mixed design systems leave me confused, File Explorer isn’t even trying, many
apps are downright insulting, and the entire thing just _reeks_ of PMs in ill-
fitting suits prodding things this way and that with their doughy fingers.

And I need to install a linux subsystem to make it just about usable.

It’s a shame, because I do like the look of their Surface line.

~~~
spectramax
Don’t forget the ads. Ads, even in the powershell. Telemetry of everything.

Automatic installs of OneDrive, Microsoft Teams, etc.

Fuck Windows. It sucks.

~~~
bufferoverflow
What ads??? I've been on Windows for decades, never saw a single ad by the OS.

~~~
fortran77
I agree! I don't see ads. I'm running the "pro" version with almost all
default settings. Do they consider pre-installed "Candy Crush" an ad? And if
so, why isn't MacOS "iTunes" an ad?

~~~
Joeri
They probably mean onedrive and office 365 ads. If you don’t use those windows
can get pretty persistent about getting them.

------
amcrouch
ThinkPads every day of the week. I have a T430 that I have owned for about 6
years and a new P52 which is my daily work machine. Both running Linux with
zero issues.

I liked the comment below describing Hotels (Mac) Vs home (ThinkPads). It's
true that if you can be bothered to tweak and install some stuff then you end
up with something of your own. Your way.

Never used Macs as old enough to remember the "no one got sacked for buying
IBM" saying and it's true even if it is now Lenovo.

~~~
soylentgraham
"Never used macs" maybe you should try them. I'm still using a 2013 MBP, only
issue is that I had to finally replace the battery about a year ago. MacBooks
used to be good. Can you still buy a 6 year old thinkpad?

~~~
garmaine
Are you joking or just don’t know? Google “x222 thinkpad” for an example.
There’s a whole market for classic thinkpads.

~~~
TeMPOraL
AFAIK there's even plenty of people who order components from newer thinkpads
in order to retrofit them to older thinkpad's chasis, either as a way to
upgrade their own machine or just to assemble a better laptop (like in most
things in this industry, older interfaces and form factors are very often
better).

------
robin_reala
Rather than suggesting a different manufacturer, I’d suggest getting a
complete machine swap under whatever lemon law is applicable in your location.
Obviously 3 repairs in 10 months is unacceptable, but Apple’s machines – even
including the keyboard faults – aren’t generally that unreliable.

If it is the keyboard then it’s 4 years, not 3
([https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-
mac-n...](https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-
notebooks)).

~~~
jstsch
I picked up a maxed out 2016 MPB right when it came out, including 2 LG 5K
displays. I suffered random total system crashes with those external displays
connected.

After going through three repair cycles Apple replaced mine with a brand new
(faster) 2018 model, I didn't even have to ask for it. It was a bit of a drag
to backup/restore the machine a bunch of times but Apple's service was top
notch.

------
rcarmo
I have been using a Rev1 Surface Laptop as a development machine for over a
year - here are my notes after six months:

\-
[https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2019/05/11/2030](https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2019/05/11/2030)

Full disclosure: I work at Microsoft. I also still use Macs (and will keep
using them regardless-for instance, I use a 5K iMac a lot of the time I work
remotely) and have kept a Mac-centric blog for sixteen years, so I think I can
be pretty straightforward and direct about this:

The Surface Laptop is at least as good as the MacBook (hardware-wise), and
depending on what you do (for instance, if you can take advantage of WSL2 and
the new Linux environment that comes with it), it may well be better. IMMV.

Hardware-wise, I cannot fault it except in the number of ports (new models
changed that a bit). Having moved from a Lenovo X1 (which I hated) to it, and
having avoided the hassles involved in the Surface Book (the hinge and
detachable screen make for a wobbly, temperamental machine IMHO, and I’m not
alone in thinking that), I’d say it is a great machine.

(I still carry around a Surface Pro 4 because it is only a slight bit smaller
and lighter, but the Laptop has a nicer screen)

~~~
alpaca128
The problem with Surface devices is that they're irrepairable once something
goes wrong. I had issues with my Surface Pro and Microsoft support basically
said "too bad, buy a new one".

That's why I went for a T-series Thinkpad and am still using it. It's not as
lightweight or slim but in exchange more powerful than equally priced
ultrabooks/convertibles and easy to repair and upgrade. That's a trade-off I'm
happy to make.

~~~
mkl
Counterpoint: my two year old Surface Pro 4 developed a battery-swelling
issue, and Microsoft replaced the whole laptop right away (well, as soon as I
worked out how to contact the right level of tech-support).

~~~
jay_kyburz
My surface 3 battery swelled and it cracked the screen. Was out of warranty
about a year so I never contacted them. I don't think I want to buy another
one.

~~~
mkl
Mine was out of warranty, but they did it anyway. They seemed to have moved on
to a different type of battery, as my refurbished Surface 4 replacement has
better battery life than the original.

------
mduerksen
Any serious contender should have an answer to the MBPs extraordinary
touchpad. It is key to working without a mouse, and therefore being truly
mobile and comfortable at the same time.

So please post at least some information for this aspect, which is one of the
things the OP explicitly listed.

Some examples:

\- Would you be able to do some solid Photoshop/Sketch/Gimp/Inkscape/Blender
work with the touchpad/knob of your proposed MBP-replacement?

\- Can you comfortably and efficiently organize your photos/files&folders with
it?

~~~
alextingle
I can't stand track/touchpads - I just turn them off. Give me a good
trackpoint any day.

~~~
mduerksen
I don't necessarily care if it's a point or pad. I need it to get the jobs
done that I mentioned above.

Can you with your laptop, and if so, which is it?

I had a Dell Precision M4300 for quite some time. Good laptop, decent
trackpoint - but it was not good enough for design work:

My main problem was offsetting the cursor a tiny number of pixels, which
needed some starting force on the trackpoint, which lead to more pixels than I
needed. Some trackpoint laptop might have figured this out by now. But if not,
I'm not interested.

------
albertzeyer
I'm also interested in that and collected a list recently:

* System 76 Oryx Pro (aluminium, official Linux support, US shipping, flaky hardware, poor battery)

* Prostar Clevo P960 (rebadge of System 76 Oryx Pro)

* Huawei MateBook X Pro (aluminium, good Linux support)

* Razer laptops (aluminium, no good Linux support)

* Chuwi LapBook Plus (aluminium, good Linux support, poor battery, poor CPU, cheap)

* Xiaomi Mi Notebook Pro (aluminium, good Linux support)

* Purism Librem 13

There was a HN thread recently about Huawei MateBook X Pro:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21170765](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21170765)

And also one about System 76:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21216195](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21216195)

~~~
gbtw
Isn't it the other way around? The 76 Oryx is a rebaged Clevo BTO laptop?

~~~
albertzeyer
Ah yes, you are right.

------
drevil-v2
Slightly OT however for what it’s worth the new 16inch MBP with a redesigned
non-butterfly keyboard is supposed to be available soon.

I would suggest you hold off any laptop decision until then.

~~~
inopinatus
The first hurdle for me is still whether it has an Escape key.

~~~
jkelleyrtp
You can rebind your capslock key to escape. I'm so addicted that I rebind it
on every keyboard I use now. It's a much better location than normal escape
and works everywhere throughout the OS.

~~~
inopinatus
Tried it. Not a fan.

------
JDiculous
It depends on what your priorities are, but I recently bought a LG Gram 17"
and absolutely love it. It has a massive 17" 2560-1600 screen, yet is as light
as a Macbook Air, and practically as thin too. 13 hour battery life, and super
comfortable keyboard. Even the charger is smaller and lighter than any other
I've seen. Honestly I've never seen anything like this in my life, and only
$1,448 ([https://amzn.to/2P2txdv](https://amzn.to/2P2txdv))

I've also used a Dell XPS 15 9570 for the past year and a half which I spent
$2.6k on (similar to this [https://amzn.to/33PA53x](https://amzn.to/33PA53x)).
Specs-wise it's awesome and blows the MBP out of the park particularly when
you factor in the price. But I've had a lot of issues with it unfortunately,
having to get it repaired twice, and then another couple times I've had the
screen just start glitching and crashing, both times resolving it via
reinstalling Windows (seems to have been problems with the drivers). Outside
of that, the laptop itself is a bit thicker and heavier than a MBP, the
battery life is pretty weak (4 hours maybe?), it gets very hot and the fans
get really loud, and the Wifi card sucks. Although the 4k screen is beautiful
with fantastic anti-reflection, I've found that I prefer the 16:10 aspect
ratio of the LG Gram and MBP vs. the 16:9 of the Dell since the former feels
way bigger and I find having a taller screen more convenient (eg. for coding).

Ultimately it comes down to your preferences. Do you prioritize having the
best specs? Then between the two you should get a Dell XPS 15 or alternatively
a Dell Precision 5540 (very similar to the XPS 15, but more geared towards 3D
work). If on the other hand you value portability but love having a large
screen, I highly recommend the LG Gram 17. I don't think there's ever been a
17" laptop as light and portable as this one.

Ever since I received my LG, I stopped using my Dell. Unless you're doing a
ton of video editing, 3d graphics work, or gaming, you really don't need more
than 16gb RAM and an i7 processor. For stuff like coding and browsing the web,
I certainly don't notice any performance difference (haven't tested more
intensive stuff yet).

~~~
pkalinowski
How do you find the touchpad? I disqualified LG Gram because of it, feels like
cheap $500 HP laptop

~~~
duchenne
I have also used an LG gram for 5+ years. The touchpad is just normal.

Maybe, you say that it feels cheap because it bends a little bit when you
press it. I guess that is the price to pay to have a 17 inches laptop under a
kilogram.

However, I did not notice any mechanical failure. The keyboard is still as
solid as day one. I just had to change the battery at some point, it was super
cheap and easy to change by myself with a standard screwdriver. I regularly
loose the charger, but it is also cheap to buy a new one.

------
fancyfish
The Dell XPS 15 is a remarkable piece of hardware and at least on par with the
MBP. A nice smooth trackpad, crystal clear display that plays well with Linux
drivers, and a reliable keyboard.

I, too, was fed up with Apple’s rising MBP prices and flimsy design. I need a
functional and long-lasting dev machine. The XPS (and probably Precision)
series checked the boxes. It has ports when I need them. Easy to take apart
and upgrade. Form, but not at the cost of function.

~~~
willis936
I got an XPS 15 with a 6 core CPU (boost up to 4 GHz) last year for (I think)
$1000. Get baseline memory and storage, slap a 1 TB samsung SSD and 32 GB of
RAM, and perform thermal mods and suddenly you have a serious piece of
hardware for $1600. I don’t think Apple cares about making computers. They
care about making money and their method of doing that is presenting the
appearance of good computers.

------
ratsbane
Macbook Pro is still my primary laptop, but for the last year or so I've also
been carrying and using a Pixelbook. Except for the smaller screen, it's
almost evolved to the point that I'd be comfortable with it as a primary
laptop.

The recent addition of Linux support is very nice and I'm looking forward to
its continuing evolution:
[https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/9031351?hl=en](https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/9031351?hl=en)

Perhaps the new Pixelbook Go will tilt the scales for me:
[https://store.google.com/product/pixelbook_go](https://store.google.com/product/pixelbook_go)

~~~
c256
My workhorse early 2011 15” mbp finally died earlier this year. For its final
12-15 months I had been looking for a good replacement, as the various mbp
issues (primarily the keyboard) had prevented me from replacing it with a new
mbp.

Eventually I pulled the trigger on a “big” chromebook, the Lenovo Yoga C630,
with an i5-U processor and 8Gb of ram, as a trial period device (I had toyed
around with a couple sub-$300 chromebooks before), and then the mbp died (pink
screen, boot-loops), and I’ve been using the chromebook ever since. It’s
pretty good, and steadily improving - at this point, it runs ChromeOS, android
apps, and containerized linux simultaneously. My only regret about the thing
is that I accidentally got the model without the backlit keyboard.

As a device, it’s a little larger than I would like, but it pays for that with
a quite nice screen (I have the FHD version; the 4K display model gives up too
much battery life for my taste). I still occasionally look at the Dell XPS13
or the Thinkpad X1 in stores, but it’s hard for me to justify spending 4* what
the C630 cost me for either of those devices, especially since the XPS13 seems
to have some hardware quality problems and the Thinkpad loses the portability
that I would like from the XPS13.

I had hopes for the Pixelbook Go, but they were quickly dashed by the leaks
then killed by the launch - it’s expensive and underpowered for a chromebook —
costs more for less oomph than the chromebook I already have. I also had hopes
for a new mbp with a new (old, really) keyboard, but that just doesn’t seem
likely, so I’m not holding my breath.

------
SyneRyder
I switched from Mac to a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Yoga 3rd Gen, when my MacBook Pro
was similarly unreliable (6 repairs through the Apple Store).

The feel of the keyboard & trackpad were important to me, and the 4K display
option covers 100% of the Adobe RGB color palette. I rarely use the Yoga's
tablet feature, but as a Photoshop user it has sometimes been useful for photo
editing with the built-in stylus. There's a built-in microSD card slot in the
3rd Gen & I put a giant microSD card in there for extra internal data storage
(eg MP3 collection). The SSD is user upgradeable but I've had problems trying
to get the SSD screw out myself.

There's a lot of small irritations and frustrations compared with the Mac to
overcome, but the X1 Yoga has been far more reliable than my MacBook Pro. No
problems in a year, whereas the Mac over the same time would have had 3 - 4
weeks of downtime due to repairs. It turns out reliability is more important
to me, I need to get work done.

I'd also seriously consider the Surface Book / Surface Laptop range, I very
nearly chose a Surface Book 2 until I saw the ThinkPad X1.

~~~
K0SM0S
Same here, what tipped the X1 for me was the impossibility to buy a Surface
Book with US QWERTY keyboard in Europe — the only options are country-based
and that's a no for me as a dev. The alternative, buy it from the US and pay
for shipping, means that I could not get service because Microsoft's warranty
only works in the country of purchase. That's such a bad policy, compared to
Lenovo's pro support (on-site next day etc). Microsoft is not really catering
to pro users here, no international warranty from a megacorp is puzzling.

------
ksec
1\. I hope Surface from Microsoft will succeed. For those that live through
the real IE era, i.e you are 35+ or 40s, I cant believe I am recommanding
Microsoft.

2\. I hope Apple fails, it seems obvious Tim Cook is lacking the awful tasing
medicine Steve Jobs once had.

Unfortunately it wont happen. iOS developers will need a Mac anyway, and along
with those _Professionals_ that uses MacBook, the MacBook will continue to do
well and Apple will look at the sales Data and say everything is fine. (
Apple's definition of Professional is very Narrow, and programmers dont fit
into that category )

We are close to 5 years mark since the butterfly Keyboard was fist introduced
on MacBook in early 2015.

~~~
fooey
Rumor is the next macbooks are dropping the butterfly keyboards

[https://www.techradar.com/news/all-macbooks-will-ditch-
the-b...](https://www.techradar.com/news/all-macbooks-will-ditch-the-
butterfly-keyboard-by-mid-2020-analyst-claims)

~~~
ksec
The problem is it give them _another_ chance to reinvent the keyboard. And
judging from recent Mac innovation their track record aren't very good.

From Keyboard, Overly large trackpad that is susceptible to false input, Touch
Bar, Display Cable failure, to the use of USB / Thunderbolt as Power Input
which is causing more power failure than ever.

------
q-base
Not really giving an alternative. But I have just bought a fully specced Mid
2014 MBP. I already have a T460s which I cannot decide whether to replace with
a X1 Carbon or wait for a new scissor-style keyboard for MBP. But as I ran
into the issue of not being able to upload React Native Expo Apps to
TestFlight I had to buy a used MacBook.

I must say that even though I an very fond of the Lenovo keyboards - and they
are great. The overall feel of a MacBook is just better. The keyboard pre-
butterfly is one of the best ever. The trackpad is another level even though
sitting with the T460s and T470s at work, it seemed like their trackpads was
on par, but they really are not.

The X1 Carbon should be up there, but there is just something about the full
experience of the product where MBP wins out. That is at least my experience
going a bit back and forth.

------
hardwaresofton
System76[0] makes some nice laptops (I have an Oryx Pro and i like it a lot),
and there's the Lenovo X1 Extreme[1].

[0]: [https://system76.com/laptops](https://system76.com/laptops)

[1]:
[https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/X1-...](https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/X1-Extreme-
Gen-2/p/22TP2TXX1E2)

~~~
SmirkingRevenge
How is the keyboard on your system76? I've been leaning towards System76 for
my next laptop, but its hard to pull the trigger without testing the keyboard.
I really need cushier and longer travel keys these days or I get really bad
muscle fatigue in my arms and wrists, while working on a laptop keyboard.

My 2014 MBP causes me issues only after an hour or two. And their newer
keyboards... well, I'm just not even going to go there. The old ibm/lenovo
thinkpad keyboards (before chick-lets) were the best.

Lenovo is an option too, but I'd rather support a Linux oriented company with
Linux-first laptops (I also find it a hard pill to swallow to ever buy a
Lenovo again, after all the spyware shenanigans).

~~~
rwha
I have an Oryx Pro and the keypad is good as far as your two requirements.

The one thing I had to get used to is that the keys have no curvature (no
gradient or tapering around the edges and the tops have zero convexity). My
fingertips are either a bit more calloused now from moving between keys or my
fingers have worn away the keys' sharp edges. Or a little of both.

Oh and if you do get one, and if you think it would be fun to have your
keyboard light up certain sections with certain colors for certain alert
conditions... it gets old real quick.

------
morphar
I am seriously considering Purism Librem 13
([https://puri.sm/products/librem-13/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-13/))
as a replacement for my MBP. I haven't had any hands on experience with it
though, so if anybody have tried it, I would love to hear about your
experience. I like the privacy first approach and I think it is becoming more
and more essential to have this kind of alternative.

~~~
morphar
And then this landed on HN:
[https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...](https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-
Todoric-Interview)

Basically Zlatan Todoric the former CTO of Purism calls Purism's claims
"shady" :(

Too bad... I had high hopes for Purism.

~~~
kgarten
Not sure I can take him too serious. I have now 3 laptops from purism (2 old
13” and one 15” ). they are great.

He’s mostly talking about the phone project (which is hard).

Don’t know about Purism, yet have friends who worked with/on Jolla and his
comments sound too harsh. PinePhone is interesting, yet haven’t seen much and
I doubt they will be doing better ... Jolla shipped (yes with some proprietary
blobs ), but was a great product (loved their work also before on the Nokia
n110 ... my first mobile internet device).

~~~
morphar
Thank you for sharing that! I was ready to ditch Apple entirely, before I read
that interview. But maybe I should just with the 13" Purism and a PinePhone :)

------
dangoor
I've been using Macs since a 12" Powerbook around 2004 and think I've only
taken a Mac in once over those 15 years. My current Mac is a 15" MBP from
earlier this year as well. One precaution I took is to get a silicone keyboard
cover. I've had no issues with it.

Though I haven't had a problem with the keyboard (likely thanks to the latest
generation of it and my silicone cover), I know that lots of people have.
Apple deserves criticism for that, but at least it sounds like the next MBP is
going to have a new keyboard design.

Hardware aside, I don't want to run Windows or Linux. Apple would have to
screw up even worse than this keyboard thing to get me to switch.

------
mattlondon
I have a Dell Precision 5520 running linux that I got when I rejected the 2018
MBP touchbar that I returned to our tech team in disgust (keyboard sucks)

Some observations of the 5520:

\- con: really really stupid web cam position: it is at the bottom left of the
screen so in any video calls it is basically looking up your nose and if you
are typing there are GIANT fingers on screen obscuring your face.

\- pro&con: feels well built (metal frame), but it is bulky and feels very
heavy

\- pro: keyboard is nice to type on

\- con: trackpad is nice but sometimes the clicks get "stuck" and you end up
inadvertently "dragging" things (e.g. tabs) when you try to click. This might
be drivers - who knows.

\- pro: It has a little button on the side you can press which shows the rough
battery charge level (5 LEDs light up for 20/40/60/80/100%)

\- con: there is no "scoop" to make opening the lid easy, so you need to use
two hands.

\- con: fan is loud and seems to be on almost all the time

It is ok but I have not been particularly pleased with it - the webcam
position, the trackpad, and the sheer bulk are the killers. I wont opt for one
of these again - probably go for a thinkpad carbon next.

~~~
IshKebab
> It has a little button on the side you can press which shows the rough
> battery charge level

Not sure if you're aware, but this great feature was copied directly from
Apple, who then dropped it for no good reason.

~~~
mattlondon
I remember seeing it on Panasonic (I think?) laptops many moons ago. Don't
really care who did it first, it is useful (dare I say it, but perhaps a "pro"
feature? very useful when traveling around and going in and out of a bag....
shame it is so heavy!)

------
marmaduke
The Dell business laptops run really well on Linux. I ha e a 5290 (x280
equivalent) on CentOS 7.7 and everything just works.

Higher end stuff like their xps 15 or 7530 are also very good.

Getting Retina to not eat battery life has been a little tricky though. On a
non retina system, I got down to 1W idle, whereas it was 15W idle on a retina
system. With Firefox, 2-5W non Retina, but 25-35W for Retina. This will
inevitably improve, but it's something to watch out for. On Windows, it's less
of a problem, as they seem to run a lot of the graphics on the Intel GPU, only
switching to discrete when required.

------
rpastuszak
I’d gladly switch hardware, but software is a bit of a problem:

\- yes, I need a *nix OS \- I need to run Adobe CC (Photoshop, Lightroom) and
Sketch

I code for iOS occasionally (be it via Unity or XCode).

I don’t mind tweaking my OS and making it mine. What I do mind is having to
tweak stuff when I don’t have the time to do it, but things are broken.

Did anyone manage to work with these tools efficiently here on a linux
machine? I always end up coming back.

~~~
mantoto
You should use an example which actually needs a *nix OS. Adobe CC is
Definitely not a good example

~~~
tomduncalf
I assumed the OP was saying they both need a -nix OS, and need Adobe CC (e.g.
if you do front end web development, although with the move away from Adobe
stuff for web design (such as Sketch) and the availability of web based tools
like Figma and Zeplin, this is a bit less of an issue than it was).

Of course, Windows now offers WSL - not sure how good it is but it does mean
both platforms can offer -nix Terminal while running all the software you
need.

~~~
rpastuszak
Precisely—I switch between front-end, mobile, backend (Java, Mono, Haskell,
etc...), I dabble in game dev and photography—so I depend on quick access to
these tools/flexibility quite a lot. I love making my computer mine, but that
doesn't mean that I'm happy to drop my work and fix something that should just
work.

I've gone the hackintosh and/or dual boot route so many times that I finally
gave up and I'm generally happy with my current setup. However, I'm sitting
here with 2 macs (both hi-spec even in Apple terms), one with a broken
keyboard, another one with a neurotic trackpad.

I guess the bottomline is: if we want to switch, we need to make
sacrifices/change our habits.

------
cdata
Similar story to OP. The MBP I acquired in 2017 has been undergoing rapid
disintegration while the 2013 model it replaced is still working just fine.

After stressing over the problem that nothing seemed comparable spec-wise,
System 76 released their Adder WS and after reading some testimonials from
users online I made the leap back to Linux.

So far, I am very pleased with the choice. Here is what I love about it:

\- Amazing 4K OLED display configured with pixel scaling a la Retina out of
the box

\- Suspend / resume "just works" every time (very different from my past Linux
user experiences years ago)

\- Connecting an external display "just works" like my MBP

\- Pop OS is a well-designed, pretty Ubuntu variant that doesn't get in the
way

\- I'm really productive on it (I haven't wasted any time trying to get things
to work)

\- Very high-end hardware all around

Things I don't love about it:

\- Battery life is atrocious

\- The keyboard has a numpad so home row is offset to the left

\- It is rather big (though not gigantic)

\- It is rather ugly (though not hideous)

\- Huge power brick with a short cable

I can't speak for long-term durability. I guess I will get back to you in a
few years.

~~~
whycombagator
How is the chassis/build quality? IIRC they are just sager/<insert-third-
party> shells

I've read varying reports of the build quality and it's one of the reasons
I've not bothered with System 76 - I fear it will be inferior to a Dell/Lenovo
product.

~~~
cdata
The build quality feels great, and it doesn't feel like it is going to fall
apart on me (granted, it is brand new). It feels quite solid, it doesn't
easily bend or creak, and I feel like I can throw it into a backpack safely
enough. Also, the keyboard feels really great, although anything that isn't a
modern MBP keyboard feels really great to me these days.

That said, it doesn't feel quite like a single, solid piece the way my 2017
MBP does. I'm not sure why that is, especially since several of the keys on my
MBP are actually falling off of it right now.

I would say that it feels comparable to a Lenovo laptop, but I haven't owned
one of those for almost a decade.

------
MatekCopatek
If you're in the market for an ultrabook, I recommend the Huawei Matebook X
Pro. Fully aluminum, solid build quality, a keyboard that matches the old MBPs
and a 3:2 screen ratio.

Downsides are a terrible webcam and all the scandals surrounding Huawei.

~~~
awalton
> Huawei Matebook X Pro

Yeah I have no idea why other manufacturers haven't looked at this machine and
taken away just how good it is. I'd buy a Dell or Lenovo version of the
Matebook X Pro in a heartbeat, if they were smart enough to stick to some of
its design principles and refine them.

3:2 is a _wonderful_ display ratio for laptops. It's a very nice compromise
between widescreen and the venerable 4:3 ratio, and makes it a much more
usable machine for hackers and writers alike. I own an older Chromebook Pixel
that I still use for travel purposes, and even despite its tininess, it's
still one of my favorite machines just for the display aspect ratio, even if
it spent several years being a pain in the ass thanks to Google not
upstreaming the Linux drivers and not putting enough flash memory onboard
despite it being a "premium" machine...

The Matebook X Pro features an Macbook-like touchpad, a chicklet keyboard that
actually feels decent and is reliable at the same time, but maybe has a little
less refinement than the Macbook Pro in some areas too - putting both its
USB-C ports on the same side so you can't charge it from either side, as an
example, and people are pretty hit/miss on the idea of having the webcam in
the keyboard (not something I personally mind; I prefer having a hideaway
camera over a piece of electrical tape on my machine).

However, the real killer about the Matebook X Pro now is that its design is a
little over three years old. It's two Intel mobile CPU revisions out of date,
and its nVidia MX150 chip wasn't great when it was new in early 2017 - Intel's
Iris graphics are more compelling for the power budget on these machines (yes,
the nVidia chip is still a _little_ faster at the top end, but at the cost of
2.5x the power usage). And just from all of the various improvements made over
the past few years, you're going to be able to squeeze out a couple extra
hours of battery life from the platform alone, which is really still a killer
feature for laptops.

So quite frankly, if we're talking about buying machines as out of date as the
Matebook X Pro... why wouldn't you buy the all-around better machine: a new
old stock Macbook Pro from before the butterfly keyboard disaster?

------
fcurzel
I got a Xiaomi Notebook Pro, display is not excellent, but great value for the
money. 16gb ram, decently new i7, Nvidia 960M, 256gb PCIE M.2 SSD, and an
extra M.2 slot! It was 1080€ shipped. Seems to be a good option also for
building an hackintosh. I am using a vm for Xcode and such and it does the
job.

~~~
solarkraft
Planned to mention this device. I got my first generation 13" Xiaomi laptop
for something around 750€.

Build is not exactly as sturdy or precise as a MacBook (the aluminum is
thinner), but it does look as good.

If you want to make a hackintosh the only thing that won't work is the wifi
card, which you can replace for about 50€. On Linux everything works
perfectly.

Unfortunately mine spontaneously stopped booting and charging one day. This
issue has not been documented on the english speaking forum (it's not the dead
battery issue, which I had and the forum helped me solve by linking me to a
replacement part on Aliexpress) and since this device isn't sold anywhere
outside of China you can be damn sure that Xiaomi won't care. While nicely
many replacement parts can be found on Aliexpress (battery, case, keyboard),
board replacement parts or schematics don't seem to be available on the
english internet. Maybe if you live or have friends in Shenzen the situation
will look different for you.

Since OP doesn't seem to be looking for any trouble with repairs I don't think
I'd recommend a Xiaomi laptop (I still consider them a good cheap option), but
rather something from a business line of a company that is known for good
customer support, like Lenovo or Dell (which my new computer, the 5285 tablet
is from and I'm fairly happy with).

~~~
zelo
I had a problem with not charging booting mi notebook pro and managed to fix
it by unplugging battery for few minutes. It happened to me twice in 1.5 years
of usage.

I still recommend this device. Currently I'm forced to use macbook pro 15 with
touchbar and it's ergonomy is really awful.

------
coldtea
> _However, Apple has demonstrated their inability to be reliable. I bought my
> MBP in January of this year (2019) and tomorrow I’ll pick it up from its 3rd
> repair._

Well, I've had 5 or so MBs and MBPs since 2003 and hardly ever needed a repair
(I had to repair an iMac once). So what happened to one machine, which could
have been part of a faulty production run is not necessarily indicative.

In general, the fact the MBPs have higher satisfaction rates, and command
higher second-hand prices and maintain them longer should be an indicator that
(again, in general) they are more reliable rather than less.

That said, if they do fail (which they still can), Apple is hardly the faster
company to give you a replacement machine, or to fix your old one. And in
countries without official Apple Stores even more so.

~~~
TacticalTable
I don't think OP is referring to Apple's permanent inability to be reliable,
but rather the current MBP series. That keyboard is atrocious, and there is no
alternative to it. Maybe the 2020 MBP design refresh will fix the issues, but
there could also be another set of issues that emerge after a few months.
Apple has broken their user's trust.

~~~
coldtea
> _but rather the current MBP series. That keyboard is atrocious, and there is
> no alternative to it._

To that I agree. I simply resorted to using an external keyboard with the
laptop 90% of the time (at home or at work) -- until I can upgrade in 1-2
years in a new model with hopefully improved keyboard.

------
moksly
I switched from a 2018 mbp 13” i5 to a surface pro 6 also i5, and I haven’t
looked back. Development is much, much nicer with VSC and WSL, and while I do
think Mac OS is better than Windows, it’s not that much of a difference.

One thing I will say though is that you don’t get the same resale value. I
sold my MBP for around 80% of its original cost after one years usage, my
surface pro on the other hand pretty much lost all of its value the moment I
walked out the shop.

As a long time Mac user, the switch was surprisingly easy. I do miss not
having iMessage and a few other Mac ecosystem tools, but with more and more of
my friends switching to android it’s becoming less and less of an issue. Over
all the Microsoft surface line feels like products that Apple should have
designed.

------
timwaagh
My current Acer laptop has always been reliable. So are other windows/pc
manufacturers like Lenovo, Toshiba, basically any brand. Reliable laptops are
a commodity. I am surprised an Apple product would not be reliable. I'd be
hesitant to recommend Dell. They crash. But that might be because i only
encounter them as corporate laptops, which get reused a lot and carry
additional risks like the corporate 'onboarding' software.

I'd recommend just sticking with windows and not overwriting it with ubuntu
unless you have some very specific needs. Some important desktop applications
like photoshop do not work on ubuntu and WSL takes care of almost everything
ubuntu can do.

------
nixpulvis
My thinkpad x1 carbon is running Linux very well (better than Windows I might
add). Battery is great, keyboard is acceptable, and it's significantly lighter
than my old MacBooks. I've grown to like the plastic Lenovo uses.

~~~
izolate
Definitely not the X1 Carbon 7th Gen. While I love my X1C7, it runs Linux
horribly. Speakers, microphone, HDMI issues galore.

------
Varriount
The Dell XPS line is pretty decent, and the newer models have fixed some
design flaws (like camera placement). The higher-end models have discrete
graphics cards, fingerprint readers, and a decent resolution display.

~~~
supernes
Bought an XPS a couple of months ago and had to return it because of the
inexcusable ghosting and slow refresh on the 4K panel and the frankly
inadequate thermal design. Outrageously bad for the asking price.

------
sofaofthedamned
ThinkPad X1 Carbon. It's a beautiful laptop and works well with Fedora after a
couple of tweaks.

I've got an XPS 13 for work which is nice too but runs windows. Pros and cons
are:

ThinkPad: Better keyboard by far, more rugged, better bios for Linux that
supports normal sleep states

XPS: Can charge on either side, better speakers

~~~
lioeters
> works well with Fedora after a couple of tweaks

I'm considering this combination of ThinkPad X1 Carbon + Fedora. May I ask
what kind of tweaks are necessary/recommended?

~~~
cipherboy
Make sure you're running an up-to-date kernel [0] because the version shipped
didn't support the wifi card shipped in the 7th gen.

[0]:
[https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1733369](https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1733369)

~~~
lioeters
Thanks for the tip!

------
randomsearch
If you use email a lot and don’t want to use gmail etc in the browser, your
only choice is Windows. I’ve tried all the GUI mail clients on Linux, and they
are all either buggy as hell, don’t support most standards, or hellish UX.

Given Windows is much much worse than OS X for tech stuff, there isn’t really
an alternative. Macs have gotten worse, less reliable, design is tanking,
software becoming buggy, but it’s still much better than the alternatives. So
stick with the MBP and buy a stress ball and punch bags to cope.

~~~
foopdoopfoop
Why haven't you tried a CLI client? Also, Office 2016 seems to be fairly well-
support on any number of those wine-based compatibility layers.

~~~
randomsearch
CLI clients aren't really fit for purpose if you're doing management-level
email.

------
ypcx
First, bad apples do happen in both Mac and Windows worlds. I've worked
primarily on Macbooks over the last 10 years (while Windows on laptop was
still in diapers) and they never failed on me. Now that Windows 10 Pro is
getting really good, and the Macs are getting obliterated by horrid design
decisions, I see myself switching to Windows.

I personally prefer Windows laptops with UHD/QHD screens because I can put
much more info on it (e.g. 3 vertical code windows or two vertical web
browsers). The Mac won't let me set that high a DPI, even if the resolution is
theoretically there. Also the 4:3 Mac screen ratio many times results in the
bottom part of the screen obscured by fingers, e.g. bed coding.

That said, the best I've found is Lenovo Yoga 920 and Dell XPS 15. The Dell
can be fitted with 64 GB ram e.g. if you run VMs, and since you mention
amazing graphics, the OLED version says Hi to the Macbook Pro, from another
universe (in other words the Mac display looks like utter trash compared to
it).

In all cases, you need to clean-reinstall from a Microsoft provided Windows
installer (to get rid of the massive preinstalled, buggy and inefficient
bloatware), and run ThrottleStop to undervolt the machine to avoid the extra
heat and boost the battery performance. Write down what you do, and over time
you will develop your "install script". Chocolatey is your friend.

HTH

~~~
kokey
Try running something like EasyRes on your Mac, you can then switch to the
actual resolution of the monitor. It’s somewhat insane how much stuff fits
into the screen of my 13” MacBook.

~~~
ypcx
Actually, independently, I just did that a few days ago on my MBP 12",
installed "RDM", it's pretty awesome.

------
sandreas
I like this question because I'm in a similar situation with my MacBook Pro
2015 despite having bought a MBP 2019, because i was not convinced of the
quality... Unfortunately i did not find a real alternative for now...

My thoughts about alternatives are:

# Software / OS:

\- Hackintosh - I don't want to bug around with hackish scripts or repeating
the whole procedure on upgrades, so I refuse to do this.

\- Elementary OS - Linux with UI similar to MacOS (at least kind of) including
Apps for the most common Tasks like mail, calendar, etc.

\- Manjaro Linux - Rising star of the distros, presentations i saw looked
pretty good. Based on archlinux - so there is some things to learn ;)

\- Ubuntu / Xubuntu / Mint - well, i know them but working with them for mee
feels by far not as good as with MacOS.

# Hardware:

\- Lenovo Thinkpad T4X0S - Good value, great linux support, business quality

\- Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon - Pretty expensive but high end and man what a
display

\- CLEVO N141CU ([https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-
configurator/purpose/b...](https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-
configurator/purpose/business-and-office-solutions/2059/clevo-n141cu-intel-
core-10th-comet-lake-metal-chassis-intel-uhd-graphics-thunderbolt-3)) - a
colleague recommended this manufacturer, i don't have any clue if this is a
good value thing, but it looks very similar to a MBP with all the connectors
you can think of

~~~
okennedy
Two other hardware resources to consider: Purism
([https://puri.sm](https://puri.sm)) and System76
([https://system76.com/](https://system76.com/)). Both of which actively
target Linux with their hardware. Both have OS distributions tailored to their
hardware (less need for tinkering), and both (to varying degrees) attempt to
keep hardware and software as open as possible.

~~~
sandreas
Cool thank you. I'll definitely take a look at this ones.

------
alexandercrohde
Aside from all the bitterness about ports, touch-bars, lock-in, blah-blah, I
have a sincere question. Does anybody know a comparably DURABLE competitor?

I have 99% confidence I could knock my macbook air off my bed (while on) 100
times in a row with 0 consequences. I've never had a key come off, had the
screen flicker, had a battery problem, had an overheat.

I'd be curious if anybody thinks there's any other laptop comparably reliable.

~~~
swozey
I'm not sure about this anymore, my 2016 MBP has gotten some gnarly body dents
all over it and it lives in my backpack and on my work desk. I've never
actually dropped it. The 2016+'s seem incredibly soft.

You're likely talking about the internals which on mine seem ok. Except my
right speaker makes crackle sounds 100% of the time. It's so distracting that
the few times I've brought it on trips and used it to watch movies I've gone
out of my way to find speakers and an aux cable.

My 2015 definitely seemed like a work horse.

~~~
bluedino
>> The 2016+'s seem incredibly soft.

I had a 2016 13" Pro fall off the arm of a couch, in a zippered soft case, and
then rivet that attaches the handle to the soft case impacted the side of the
laptop near the ports on the side, it looked like a rat gnawed on it.

That's what I get for using the same (otherwise great) STM case since my Core
2 Duo MacBook Pro

------
pkalinowski
I'm looking for a replacement, too. Had Macbook Pro 2015 and 2018.

I plan to settle on Windows 10 Pro + Ubuntu WSL. I don't need top specs (i5
and 16GB RAM are enough for me), but build quality (touchpad, screen,
robustness) and weight are most important.

Playing with Surface Pro 6 in shop I kinda like it, but I can't find XPS or X1
to lay my hands on.

How is the build quality between Surface Pro, XPS and X1? Which one has the
best touchpad, screen?

~~~
EugeneOZ
Dell XPS 15 (2019) has good keyboard - better than Surface Pro, worse than
Lenovo. Very good touchpad - worse than Macbook, better than any other
manufacturer. Materials are nice to touch, design is very good looking
(comparable to MBP). Screen has very modest viewing angle, but if you don't
move your head too much, colors are vibrant and image quality is great.

------
mcv
With all the bad reviews about Apple, I didn't want to replace my old 17"
MacBook Pro with a new Macbook (also, they don't do 17" anymore), so I just
ordered a Thinkpad X1 Extreme instead.

Thinkpad has had a stellar reputation for sturdy quality since forever, and
the X1 Extreme seems like a fairly good compromise between power, size, and
other concerns. It's not 17" because the only 17" Thinkpads are the monstrous
P73s.

According to reviews, it's quieter than my old Macbook (which was extremely
noisy), but I intend to make it quieter by repasting and undervolting, which
seems to be a fairly common procedure for Thinkpads.

Also, if it breaks down during the first 3 years, I get on-site support, so I
don't have to go anywhere when it breaks down; they come to me.

(My specs: 32 GB (still upgradable to 64GB), i7-9850H, 2x 1TB SSD (one for
Windows, one for Linux perhaps) and the 4K OLED screen. I expect this to last
me for quite a while.)

~~~
burntoutfire
> I intend to make it quieter by repasting and undervolting

>Also, if it breaks down during the first 3 years, I get on-site support,

Aren't these two statements mutually exclusive?

~~~
mcv
Good question. They don't have to be, but I suppose it's worth checking.

I found a forum post where someone asked Lenovo support[0] which apparently
said:

 _" When it comes to changing the thermal paste - if you know what you're
doing, you're totally fine, but if you break something during the procedure,
the repair will not be covered by warranty."_

That sounds entirely reasonable. But I guess it's worth checking how well it
works with the factory paste first. Some people say it's nonsense to believe
an amateur can apply thermal paste better than the factory, others report a 10
degree C difference.

[0] [https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-
Laptops/X1-Ca...](https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-
Laptops/X1-Carbon-6th-changing-SSD-and-thermal-paste-vs-
warranty/m-p/4096188#M86390)

~~~
ants_a
> Some people say it's nonsense to believe an amateur can apply thermal paste
> better than the factory, others report a 10 degree C difference.

Both can be correct.

------
ceronman
I'm writing this from my recently bought Thinkpad X1C7 after moving from a
2015 MPB. Here are some notes about my experience so far:

The hardware is fantastic. Build quality is great, the keyboard is great, the
screen is great, the selection of ports is great. It's not cheap though, price
is very close to an MBP.

The software part is not so great. I tried Windows for a short while, but it's
just a disaster. It's slow and inconsistent. I tried WSL, but it feels so
alpha for now.

So quickly I decided to move Ubuntu. Overall Ubuntu feels so much better than
Windows, but the caveat is hardware support. Thinkpads supposedly have very
good Linux support, however, the microphone and the fingerprint reader didn't
work. After googling a lot I found a way of making the mic work by manually
compiling a kernel. No solution for the fingerprint reader yet. And the volume
controls don't work properly, there are a few workarounds, but none fixes the
issue 100%.

Another issue on Linux is that none of the stable web browsers (Firefox,
Chrome) have hardware video decoding enabled, so watching YouTube drains your
battery. I'm now using a Chromium Beta build which seems to be the only
alternative for now.

Using Linux requires you to google and apply a ton of small fixes to make some
things better. Things like installing TLP to have decent battery life, hacking
grub fonts so that they don't appear tiny on the 4k screen and stuff like
that.

The hardware issues are quite frustrating, but I know those will be resolved
at some point. My Thinkpad model is fairly new. The lesson here is: if you
want Linux to work out of the box on your hardware, don't get the latest
model.

On the positive side, I'm really loving Ubuntu and Gnome. I don't have plans
to move back to Mac, even if they fix their crappy new keyboards. The fact
that you can make Linux work the way you want is very rewarding even if it
takes some time to google and hack around. But I understand that not everyone
likes to do that.

~~~
rkangel
My advice for people using Linux on a laptop for the first time is to use
Fedora - it has the best 'out of the box' support for hardware due to shipping
the most recent kernels. With Thinkpads usually everything just works (in my
case that included fingerprint reader, keyboard backlight, webcam).

------
tbronchain
I have been facing the same issue and eventually went for the Thinkpad X1
Extreme - and I'm quite surprised to not seeing it mentioned here.

I was afraid of the 15" being too big but as I'm not using much external
screens anymore, this is the perfect size - the laptop is also very light and
portable, given it's a 15"...

The GeForce graphic card is awesome. So are the 2x pcie and additional RAM
slots. Bonus for the mate screen.

Small minus to the battery life, who averages to 5-8hrs (max). Otherwise it's
an amazing, durable, efficient machine that does the job, at probably replaces
well a MBP. Also, Windows 10 isn't perfect but I'm finding it pretty good
after all. I use HyperV Linux VMs for dev and the overhead is totally
acceptable.

------
Freaken
I might be an outlier in the dev community, but I’m on my second Alienware 15"
laptop running Ubuntu + Xfce and I really love it. It’s fast (my current
laptop has an i9 in it), reliable, offers multiple possibilities for
extensions and the new M form factor does pretty good when it comes to
bulkiness.

Of course they are bigger than an XPS 13, but if you are like me and mostly
work from office and home, it’s not really an issue.

Ho and it’s gaming-ready too (got a gtx2080 in my current laptop).

My previous laptop before that was the first gen of retina MBP (2012) and the
only thing I miss from it is the almost double battery life I had over the
Alienware.

~~~
Topgamer7
Nope, you aren't alone. I run an Alienware 15r3. Manjaro + i3. I even went so
far as to patch the Linux kernel to get the headset mic to work. Although I've
been wanting an ultra ultra thin laptop lately.

------
quantgenius
Just switched to a Thinkpad P1 Gen 2 which is almost the same machine as a X1
Extreme Gen 2. You can get upto 64 GB of user-upgradeable RAM and 2
replaceable SSDs in a package approx the same weight but 1-2 mm thicker than a
15 inch Macbook Pro. It may not fit the current fashion but to me it's a
really aesthetically attractive package.

Windows 10 Pro with WSL is MUCH better than I expected it to be. Download
Conemu, Terminus or similar as a terminal and you may as well be running
Linux. Download VxXsrcv and you can even run the Linux version of your IDE. I
run the Linux versions Emacs, IntelliJ and Pycharm, not the Windows versions.

Hardware wise, the Trackpad is worse but I don't really miss it. Keyboard is
much better. Lots of ports. Great screen, though most of my time is spent
connected to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. Multi-monitor support is
good. Only annoyance is that if the screens sleep all your applications get
moved to whatever monitor you set as primary but this is a minor annoyance.

Ubuntu runs great but since I can ssh to multiple machines running Linux
already, and I can run WSL, I really don't feel the need for Linux on the
machine itself.

Less thermal throttling. Battery life is decent. I get a real 8 hours in
battery save mode even with IntelliJ or Pycharm running, so long as I've set
things up in the IDE to save battery by not continuously re-indexing things.
Most Thinkpads are rated Milspec 1 so the keyboard isn't going to die with the
first spec of dust and the machine will survive minor mistreatment. Windows
with WSL basically gives me everything I need.

I bought a Macbook the week Apple released OSX and have been an Apple fanboy
for years but at this point for what I do, as someone doing a fair bit of
programming, it's an inferior machine.

I've also tried the various Dell XPS machines. They frankly aren't really
comparable to Thinkpads in how well they are built or fit and finish. The XPS
15 is a direct competitor to the P1 Gen2 (or X1 Extreme) and in my opinion if
you use both for a week, there is no comparison. I have friends who have also
switched to Thinkpads and/or Dell XPS machines so I was able to compare
directly before I bought them.

------
cloudking
Not a laptop specific comment, but from a software perspective Windows 10 with
WSL is a pretty awesome Dev environment. You get a full Linux subsystem, with
access to the Windows filesystem and environment for testing.

------
RocketSyntax
I have been buying 2015s on ebay since the newer models were introduced >.<

------
agloeregrets
Not sure if this helps but Apple is supposed to offer a new 16 inch model with
the old style switches early next year, the latest Catalina beta leaked its
thicker design and escape key.

------
jonny383
Dell XPS developer edition, or if you want a 15", the non-developer edition.

Touch pad is not quite as good, but the rest of the hardware is up to spec.
The 4K screen is arguably better than a MBP.

------
justinweiss
I wanted to dip back into Linux, and found a ThinkPad x230t for around $70.
I'm amazed by how much I like it. I'm running mostly vanilla Gnome on Arch.
Every piece of hardware just works. You can take the entire thing apart with
just a normal screwdriver. Tablet mode has been great for reading papers and
articles on the couch. It's a common enough linux machine that there are tons
of setup instructions and suggestions written specifically for it. With an SSD
and 8-16GB RAM, it's plenty fast.

It's bulkier. the screen is non-retina and a worse aspect ratio. The fan is
noisier. Turns out none of these things bother me anywhere close to what I
expected. Hardware-wise, the only annoying thing has been the terrible
speakers. Then again, I'm usually on headphones. I miss USB-C ports and USB-C
charging, but not too badly.

On the other hand, I had almost forgotten what a good laptop keyboard felt
like, and after getting used to the trackpoint, I like it a lot.

I still use a Mac for work, but as a lot of my favorite Mac software has gone
subscription-only or subscription-preferred, I've gradually moved more toward
open-source options: password-store from 1Password, org-agenda from OmniFocus,
etc. So the change wasn't as big or as hard as I was expecting. Decoupling
from iCloud will definitely be a thing (photos, iTunes Match, etc.), but I'll
figure it out.

edit: Forgot to mention matte screen! Don't know why all the manufacturers
thought glossy was the way to go, but it's nice not having to stare at a
reflection of the room around me all the time.

------
eggsyntax
I switched a few years ago from MBP to ThinkPads running Ubuntu (with Gnome).
It's been an overall improvement for sure, and there are very few things I
miss (iTerm2 is the big one; there's no Linux terminal emulator that has all
the advanced features I loved in iTerm2 like incremental
search/highlight/copy. Gnome terminal with tmux is...acceptable). And of
course it's much cheaper; on both computers (P51 and X1 Extreme) I paid about
2/3 what I would have paid for a MBP.

The big downside is battery life. On both the ThinkPads I've had, the battery
life has been roughly 4-6 hours, despite my attempts to improve it with
Powertop and/or TLP, and despite keeping the external graphics card shut down.
I find that pretty painful; I like to work outside most of the day when the
weather's decent, and now I have to be meticulous about plugging in whenever I
go inside for a bit. If it weren't for having it charge up over lunch, there's
no way it would make it through my day.

Some folks seem to get better battery life with some ThinkPads running Linux,
but I haven't been able to pull it off. In fairness, I do a fair amount of
CPU-heavy work -- but I was doing the same kind of work on MBP, and the
battery life was _much_ better.

~~~
kingkongjaffa
This is such a strange story - my thinkpad T490 lasts all day, my MBP lasts
about 4 hours. (granted it's a 2012 model but still).

Battery life isn't one of the things Mac books have ever had going for them in
my experience.

~~~
sharms
I have the same experience: My T470 always goes at least 10 hours, and the
battery estimate shows 16+ from a full charge. My work Macbook might get 5 on
a good day?

------
iamthe
Seems like incredibly bad luck. I run an IT department with hundreds of
macbooks, and they're at least as reliable as standard Lenovos -- and thanks
to macos tend to work longer without software trouble.

I also have personally owned several, and have faced no problems. Could be
that I have incredibly good luck :) As further anecdote, I've ran Linux on my
computers for almost 2 decades now, and I'm really enjoying macbooks and imacs
as a replacement for them.

------
bob1029
I am looking forward to the launch of the new Surface products next week. I
will very likely be replacing my 2013 MBP with one of these options.
Specifically, I am looking hard at the 15" laptop right now because AMD and
apparent ease of repair.

Worst case scenario, I might just get a cloud Mac for iOS development concerns
and VNC/SSH into it from whatever machine. It will actually be a bit of a
shock for me to go full-time Windows 10, as I alternate between OSX/WIN10 at a
rate of about 30/70 on a daily basis. I really have no strong allegiance
either way. Both operating systems are incredible, but I will have to award
some bonus points to Apple for that extra bump in UX quality. You can almost
constantly feel as if OSX and the hardware were designed by the same engineer
when you use things like their touchpad.

One other thing I would say is that if Apple released a clone of this exact
machine I have today (the late 2013 13" retina MBP) with modern
CPU/Memory/GPU/SSD and maybe USB-C, I would be stoked and would likely
purchase it immediately. The changes made to the newest models are
dealbreakers for me - Particularly the touchpad & keyboard (AKA the most
important aspects).

------
Rocafella888
I'd say the only alternative is another Mac. An iMac is a fantastic work tool
(I use this for work), but if you need portability, go for any of the Mac
laptops. I had the 13 inch MBP (without Touch Bar) and it was the best
combination of size, performance and power. Only problem was I needed the
dedicated video card so I had to upgrade to the 15 inch which has the touch
bar that I hate. I don't recommend upgrading to Catalina unless you are sure
you won't use 32 bit apps. I have Sid Meier's Pirates, Civilization VI and
SimCity4 Deluxe and now they don't work. I have to wait for the developers to
release a patch, if they ever do. But yeah, I did the research, tried out
different laptops (Dell XPS) and none compare to even the lowest level Mac
laptop. The fan noise, the display, the touch panel, the OS, all are inferior
experiences to a Mac. And, if you want to use Windows, only Macs have Bootcamp
built-in, allowing you to boot into other operating systems. Its kind of sad,
but there just isn't any viable competitor out there.

------
seanwilson
I'm looking into Chromebooks. I'm happy with my MacBook except that if I'm
traveling with it and it breaks or gets stolen, I don't have a lot of options
if I'm dependent on expensive Mac hardware. If I can switch to developing on a
Chromebook, picking up a new one in an emergency is a lot more feasible, plus
they're very secure and low maintenance.

Has anyone tried moving from Mac to ChromeOS?

~~~
atrilumen
I've been using a Pixelbook for the past year or so.

I do like the look and feel of the hardware: nice screen, decent keyboard and
touch pad, and a thin metal body which feels really solid. The silicone palm
rests start to yellow a bit, but really increase comfort. Overall, I'm happy
with the hardware.

The software is an interesting concept, and actually the reason I bought it. I
like the idea of a minimal, verified Linux that only runs Chrome, and (WIP)
Linux containers for everything else.

I've had many issues that disrupted my work, and required switching to
different release channels. Obviously this is on me for choosing to use the
"Beta" container support feature, but I am still annoyed by it often because
somehow bugs make their way through all those channels: Canary -> Dev -> Beta
-> and even down to Stable. Several times I was forced to move to a higher
channel to escape a serious / disruptive issue, only to encounter _different_
issues. And then moving back down again requires a "powerwash", wiping all
your data. So I feel like I'm just being chased around by issues that should
have been resolved in a higher channel.

As a result, there tends to be nothing on this machine that isn't in the cloud
somewhere. I suppose that's a good thing.

Trust is another issue, entirely. I'm looking for something else. I may
install an alt OS like Gallium.

------
odiroot
I would recommend Thinkpad T-series even for the keyboard and touchpad only.

It's much heavier though, but at that much more repairable and sturdier.

~~~
andreareina
Unfortunately even the T-series has gone 100% on the integrated battery now,
which IME is the thing most likely to need to be fixed. Aside from that,
agreed.

~~~
ants_a
Swapping the integrated battery is a 5 minute job, so if you are not planning
on hauling around multiple batteries, it's not a major issue. I haven't really
used the hot swap capability my T440s has, even though I have multiple. Maybe
if they had a separate charging dock for the batteries...

~~~
pm7
Did you try to open T470/T480 (maybe T490)? There are awful latches which are
integrated in case, so quite expensive to replace.

------
jostmey
I'm using a Microsoft surface laptop and I love it! The 3:2 screen ratio makes
my 13" screen feel like a 15" laptop without extra bulkiness (the 3:2 screen
ratio adds an extra inch of height compared to the 16:9 ratio). Everything
else about the laptop is so far amazing

It doesn't have a great graphics card, but I don't do much of that anyway

------
tuukkah
Thinkpad X1 Carbon (or Extreme for 15" OLED display and 64GB RAM)

------
rvanmil
Not an answer to your question, but I’m of the opinion that Apple should have
a product recall for all butterfly keyboard equipped MacBooks.

My own MBP (late 2018) also just went in for its 3rd repair to the keyboard,
it’s ridiculous.

I absolutely love everything about the MacBook and Apple ecosystem but god the
keyboards are such an embarrassment.

All anecdotal of course but at the office many of our MacBooks have keyboard
issues. And quite some people I know also have issues with the keyboard. Just
from my observations the problem is gigantic and I wonder if Apple knows this;
almost everyone I talked to about the issue is not willing to have it repaired
and just live with the shitty keyboard, because they don’t want to wait 2+
weeks for Apple to repair it.

I’m nowhere near the point of switching to something else because I don’t want
Windows or Linux, but I cannot wait for Apple to get their shit together with
their keyboards.

------
drclau
@ryanmccullagh, can you please specify what the problem was?

I have a MBP w/ Touch Bar, and the battery just started to swell some half a
year after running out of the 2 years (European) warranty. However, I
contacted Apple, they directed me to an authorised service and I got the top
case with battery (it's glued in), keyboard and trackpad, and the bottom plate
replaced free of charge. No questions asked. Note that my machine is not part
of the recent battery recall.

It would have taken 4 days (they say up to 5 days), however I opted to pay a
small fee and take the notebook home and bring it back in when the replacement
parts arrived. Took 2-3h to get everything done after the parts arrived.

All things considered, I'm quite pleased with Apple service, even though they
don't have an official presence here, except for authorised services.

~~~
ryanmccullagh
3 things broke. First it was a dead pixel on the screen, second was a
reproducible kernel panic (using any video chat application would panic the
kernel.). The last and hopefully final issue was the keyboard issue (double
keys, and weird issues with the key not pressing sometimes).

Each time I’ve had an issue, Apple has honored the terms of their warranty.
However, I value my time and frankly don’t like going to the Apple Store every
3 months and doing the run around.

~~~
drclau
Thanks for sharing. I did not expect 3 completely different issues to occur on
a single machine in such a short time interval after purchase. I understand
your dissatisfaction.

------
city41
I’m very excited about Google's Pixelbook line and ChromeOS. With Crostini
(Linux integration) it has the potential to become my preferred OS for doing
dev work. Crostini is still in beta and does have a ways to go yet.

The Pixelbook itself is excellent hardware with a top notch screen, trackpad
and keyboard.

------
badatshipping
Try getting a refurbished 2015 MacBook Pro (the last good model), as powerful
as you need.

------
indymike
I switched to a Dell XPS 15. Didn't think the convertible form factor would
matter... but touch and stylus are really useful. Oh, and Dell's take on a
slim keyboard is much better. Linux just works and Windows is serviceable.

------
berbec
I would suggest a Lenovo T490. It has the build quality you've come to expect
from IBM, usb-A ports, Thunderbolt 3, standard nvme storage, 32GB ram
available and a low-power 1080p option that allows for over 10 hours of
browsing.

~~~
jpalomaki
You can actually go all the way to 48GB. 16GB soldered + 32GB dimm.

------
maurits
I dodged and got a 2015 Macbook Pro this year.

------
fbnlsr
I've pondered quite a great deal about this very same question. I'm the owner
of a 2015 MacBook Air, and I'll probably won't buy another MacBook when mine
dies.

What I'll definitely do is get a Thinkpad Carbon X1 and put elementary OS on
it. The Thinkpad line has been around for ages and are praised upon. It's
fairly linux-friendly, and elementary OS is a great distro, stable enough to
work on, and its polish and attention to detail resonates with a MacOS user.

I've been using elementary OS on a VM in my gaming PC and it's been working
flawlessly. Really like this distro.

------
truth_seeker
XPS 13 (or 15)

[https://www.pcworld.com/article/3445857/dell-
xps-13-2-in-1-v...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/3445857/dell-
xps-13-2-in-1-vs-mac-pro.html)

------
stringParameter
I was in the same position, and last year (2018) bought a ThinkPad T480S -
bought on a student discount and stuck an extra drive in the m.2 slot for the
WWAN card (used a Toshiba RC-100). I upgraded to 3-year next-business-day for
£60.

It's an absolute delight to work on. It's repairable, has ports, lovely 1440p
display, it's upgradable, it has a good battery life.

The added advantage is I seem to have absorbed a good deal of knowledge about
computers and Unix since switching. I didn't realise how ignorant I was when I
was blindly strolling the paths of Apple's walled garden.

------
EnderMB
I've sung it's praises for years on here, and I'll do it again.

The Surface Book is the best laptop I've owned. The build quality is better
than the MBP, and despite owning it for years it's as fast as it was when I
first bought it. I've had zero issues with it, and I use it almost daily.

It's also not a bad Linux laptop, if that's your thing. I find myself booting
into Debian less and less nowadays, but if you want to mainly use Linux it's
possible.

My sole gripe with it is that the trackpad isn't as good as the MBP, but it's
very close.

------
jen_h
Surprised not to see more mentions of the Asus Zenbook here — I switched from
a MBP to a Zenbook running Ubuntu four years ago, and haven’t looked
back...sleek, light, fast, beefy specs AND it’s endured my abuse pretty well.

It’s starting to finally show its age, I switched to a Dell for a week after
my adapter died, but went straight back to it once I was able. 13” screen and
I still preferred it over the Dell (speed & comfort may have been an issue,
too). Probably will be replacing it with a similar model (matte screen,
though, this time, for sure).

~~~
nabusman
I bought a Zenbook a year ago but the trackpad was pretty much unusable.
Though Ubuntu 16.04 worked with minor tweaks.

~~~
jen_h
This saved my sanity:

synclient PalmDetect=1 && synclient PalmMinWidth=4 && synclient PalmMinZ=60

------
fierarul
You didn't mention what are you doing with the laptop? If you filter by
laptops with the same weight, screen resolution, fast CPU, etc., etc. there's
going to be a small list of laptops of comparable price.

So, if you start being more flexible in some areas you have more choices.

For example, how about a Ryzen desktop + a no fuss laptop for when you are
mobile? (This assumes you mostly work in one office on the desktop, but also
want to be mobile).

Depending how used you are to macOS you'll probably come back to Apple. Maybe
buy an use / refurbished MBP.

------
kekeblom
I have a Lenovo P52 at work. Compared to a Macbook it's not that great. You
can't open the lid one-handed as the bottom sticks to the top. The build
quality is super flimsy. The touchpad is not nearly as sensitive and accurate
as on a MBP.

I run Ubuntu on it and currently my Nvidia drivers are not loading correctly
so it's running on the intel integrated graphics. When they were, all GUI
applications would crash when waking up from sleep. Will have to look into it
and figure out if I can find a stable configuration.

------
muzani
Slightly off topic, I greatly prefer a touch screen over the touch pad.

One downside of switching is that work software for Macs are very well built.
Webstorm feels clunkier on Windows than Mac, for example.

I wish I could recommend something, but nothing seems to meet the weight,
quality, power match.

HP Pavilion has the weight and power of a MBP, and the tablet mode is fun. But
the touchpad is terrible.

Dell XPS has power and a good build, but is too heavy if you like to lug
around two laptops like me.

MS Surfacebook seems nice, but some friends report that it it's also similarly
fragile.

~~~
monkeycantype
I've been doing a lot of work on windows, so I bought a surface book, and I
really like it. But it is fragile. I bought a refurb, and I had to exchange it
twice. Fortunately the support is good, when I've had a problem, MS swapped it
for me via courier . I've had everything backed up on one drive and really
been quite easy. If you find yourself in this position, their online support
chat has certain hours in each country, just switch the /us/uk/au path segment
in the chat url and you'll get to chat with a person any time of day.

------
jxm262
Adding my 2 cents on this since I've recently migrated from my old macbook
2015 to a System76 Gazelle (linux/Pop_OS). My comments are coming from the
perspective of a web developer / trader (i make websites and trade
futures+equities for a living) - with a Linux preference (i dislike Windows).

\- Dell XPS_13 \- Thinkpad (x1 carbon) \- Purism \- System76 (looked through
all their laptpp offerings)

I chose Sys76 because I really wanted better hardware (I wanted _alot_ of
RAM), which admittedly isn't a normal requirement for most users.

\- Dell XPS 13 - totally anectodal, but I have a few friends who really
dislike this laptop because of lots of little issues. Then again, I also know
people who love it. My friend lent me his old one and I kept having issues
with drivers and the OS just randomly crashing... so I passed on it

\- Thinkpad X1-carbon - build quality feels awesome. I really like the
trackpoint thingy, but the trackpad itself I thought was horrible. Also
dislike the keyboard in general. I've read a bunch of mostly positive reviews
though, so I might actually buy one to try in the future.

\- Purism - seemed ok, but after looking at the hardware I could get on the
Sys76 I liked the latter better.

\- Sys76 Gazelle - Opted for this one since the hardware for the price seemed
much better than the alternatives. Despite many people complaining that
they're marked up Clevo's, I still found them the best when comparing
price/hardware.

For about $2,000 USD, I was able to get what I wanted \- 6GB GTX 1660 (cuda)
\- 64 gb ram \- 1tb nvme

Compared to the macbook, after a few months use, I honestly miss the mac.
There's awesome things to this laptop, but at the end of the day linux just
doesn't play nice with everything compared to macs. Slow lagging in general
(mac is much more 'snappy') when doing basic things like opening and dragging
window panes. Random weird behavior when plugging in peripherals (plugging
hdmi will shift some of my fn keys around, wtf?). The keyboard is awesome, the
trackpad is ok, but NOTHING compares to the mac's trackpad. The mac display
blows the Gazelle's display out of the water. I can't use some apps - Sketch,
etc.. on this since it's linux. Battery life is so bad it's laughable.

IMHO, there is no feasible alternative, just a series of tradeoffs only your
personal needs can decide. I really wish apple would offer a true "pro" user
option - let me upgrade my hardware. Weight/size be damned, I basically want a
desktop I can carry in my bookbag.

------
snek
ThinkPad X1 with a good Linux OS is my favourite laptop ever. I've gotten
almost 15hrs of battery from it, the trackpad is amazing, and the performance
is top notch.

------
baby
What about the last microsoft surface? I find microsoft products more and more
attractive.

One of the big problem is airdrop + other macos only tools like keynote. Its
hard to quit those.

------
crazygringo
> _I bought my MBP in January of this year (2019) and tomorrow I’ll pick it up
> from its 3rd repair. I’ve grown tired of this repair routine._

That sucks, but I think you've just had bad luck. The quality, longetivity,
and service of Apple hardware through Apple stores isn't perfect, but it's
been consistently better than the alternatives for me and everyone else I
know. Sorry your experience has been bad.

I'm curious what you've had to get repaired?

------
rezmeplease
Razer Blade or Blade stealth

If you're looking for something as reliable as 2015 or macbook pro's that
don't have butterfly keyboards then maybe this isn't a good choice. But
specwise it's even better (display and internals) and the trackpad is probably
best in all windows computers (they're basically trying to mimic macbooks).

However, like I said before, they aren't exactly the most reliable laptops,
but when they work, they work REALLY well

------
petilon
Samsung ATIV Book 9 series is the best laptop I've used. Better industrial
design than Apple. Fantastic "retina" display. Fantastic backlit keyboard.
Unfortunately it is hard to find now. The 12" version is still available on
Amazon but it is underpowered for development purposes. You want the 13"
version for development purposes.

The second best is the new Surface Laptop. Unfortunately its screen is not
quite as highres as the Samsung.

------
godzillabrennus
Nothing equals the MacBook line even with all the downgrades since they
switched to Donglebook models.

Closest I’ve used is the Surface line but it’s not nearly as good.

I’m still using a donglebook. My work gave me one and I had bought one so I
have a spare for when one is being repaired.

The keyboards are utter shit, the usb C charging is a big downgrade, and the
touch pads are now so big they often get in the way of typing.

The 2012 MacBook Pro Retina I bought before my 2018 Donglebook still hasn’t
had issues.

------
dhruvkar
I switched from a 2012 MBP to Thinkpad P52S with Pop_OS! I had a year with
Ubuntu and Lubuntu in the middle. Pop_OS! however is so similar in usability
to macOS, that I can't imagine going back to macOS even if the hardware got
better.

The P52S has two batteries, all major hardware ports (including ethernet) and
a SIM card slot. It had a (lower end) Nvidia card. Conveniently Pop_OS! comes
bundled with Nvidia drivers.

Closest replacement for macOS/MBP I've found.

~~~
mcv
The P52, or now P53, is the one Thinkpad P I haven't considered. The primary
appeal of the P73 was that it's the only 17" Thinkpad. If I want a 15" screen,
the P1/X1E (they're basically the same machine except for the GPU) seems like
a more attractive choice.

------
mmwelt
I've been using an Asus ZenBook for a while and am very satisfied with it!
They aren't very cheap, but Asus seems pretty innovative with their laptops.
And the brushed metal finish is also quite nice.

[https://www.asus.com/au/Laptops/ZenBook-Series-
Home/](https://www.asus.com/au/Laptops/ZenBook-Series-Home/)

Not associated with Asus in any way...

------
theonething
I enjoy developing on Linux, but my problem is Apple has sucked me into it's
ecosystem tentacles and it's hard to get out. It's really nice to have my
reminders, calendar, notifications, messaging, etc synced between my iPhone
and MBP. And unlike any else out there that I can tell, it just works with
very little setup and fiddling.

Has anyone encountered a similar experience and can suggest remedies?

------
swozey
I'll be buying the new 13" XPS 2-n-1 pretty soon. It finally has a thunderbolt
3 port so I can plug in an egpu if I ever feel like I need an upgrade for
gaming.

I am worried about the thermals, the i7 seems like it will likely throttle
quite a bit.

I absolutely love the form factor though. I've been hoping for 5 years that
Apple would release a convertible/2-n-1 style laptop and blow the Surface out
of the water.

------
udkyo
I went from a 2015 MBP to a Gigabyte Aero 15x and put Pop!OS on it.

I'm very happy with it - it's a tidy little machine, build quality is good, it
has a nice 4K screen, great specs incl a good GPU, all the holes and slots I
could ask for, and the battery lasts something like 10hrs (GPU usage destroys
this though obviously)

If you can live without Mac OS, there are a number of top notch laptops out
there calling your name.

------
joe_cloggy
I am a long time mac user, up until 2015 for the valid reasons already noted
re post 2015 MBP's, and I work with music. Here's recent article that may be
of interest to the OP. [https://www.meldaproduction.com/text-
tutorials/switching-fro...](https://www.meldaproduction.com/text-
tutorials/switching-from-osx-to-windows)

------
Maro
I had similar problems. I bought a Razer Blade Stealth 13, but I cannot
recommend it. There are hardware bugs, the biggest one being, 1 out of 3 times
if you plug/unplug the power, it goes to sleep. Happens on both Win and Linux.
It's well known and there's no fix from Razer.

My takeaway: other laptops also have bugs; I'm back to using a MBP & I hope
the next-gen MBPs are good again.

------
kerng
I have both MBP and Surface Laptop 2. I personally like the Suface much
better. And most importantly the entire Office stack on Windows is superior to
anything on Mac or Google things.

The keyboard on Surface Laptop is also superior, and I never liked the
touchpad. Big touch screen fan!

What feels less nice is the screen attachment, it seems less stable. The MBP
has a nicer mechanism for locking in I think.

------
justanothersys
Actually the new Google Pixelbook Go looks like it could be a 2019 version of
the old plastic MacBooks, which were beautifully functional.

------
pmarreck
My MBP is a couple years old and runs like a champ.

You know, with every product released, someone's invariably going to be the
outlier... you know, the guy who buys a lemon, then gets another lemon, then
gets ANOTHER lemon. Each lemon probability is small, but even with 3 in a row
there's still a chance.

Is there a systematic (not just anecdotal) issue with Apple quality? Evidence?

------
ur-whale
Left the Apple ecosystem 10 years ago, never looked back.

My day to day work is done on a 15 inch LG Gram + Ubutu 18.04.

I just love it: super lightweight, fast, rugged (been dropped easyly 10 times,
still working fine)

The dev env is _vastly_ superior to what I had on my MBP where I constantly
found myself struggling with out-of-date software and OSS stuff that just
plain doesn't work on the mac.

------
jpkeisala
I have Huawei Matebook with Windows. Very good laptop. But I had to buy
Macbook Pro as well when I got project with iOS.

So, now I have 2 newish laptops. I think Macbook is still better when I code
anything else than .NET. Thanks to the terminal. Matebook in hardware is
better, really good screen. Also it looks good. After all it is Macbook Air
knock off.

------
NightlyDev
If you want something that works, and with little downtime, go for a Dell XPS
laptop. Way better than every other manufacturer I can think of.

Next business day on-site repair is usually included, so if something goes
wrong then it will be fixed very quickly as a technician will be sent to you
with the necessary parts.

I love it when companies actually stands behind their products.

------
goatherders
I sold my MacBook and went to an XPS 13 about 3 years ago. I have enjoyed the
machine and Windows just fine. I dont know anything about configs and
launchers and Ubuntu - I just use the machine to run my company and spend 99%
of my time in Excel, Chrome, and Mailbird. The Dell is an excellent machine
except the battery life is terrible.

------
arc_of_descent
I'm using a ThinkPad E480, with 2 monitors attached. Lubuntu 19.10. It's my
main dev machine running Postgres, VirtualBox, Elixir, Node, etc. Battery is
still amazing after 4 months.

I've always wanted to buy a MacBook Pro, mostly for music production, but the
ThinkPad is a fine beast by itself. For music, I use Studio One 4 on Win 10.

------
dguaraglia
I've been using a Matebook X Pro for... I guess almost a year now. I only have
good things to say about it. Other than the touchpad (Apple's are just
superior) and the stupid positioning of the webcam (if you use it) everything
else works great, it's a great looking laptop with good battery life and super
portable.

------
zaro
I am using Xiaomi Notebook Pro 13, and I am very happy with it. I think for
running Linux it's better choice than MBP.

------
jamesfmilne
I like the look of the Thinkpad X1 Extreme Gen 2, but I'd want to know if it
is saddled with NVIDIA Optimus GPU switching, and whether that works in CentOS
7.7 or CentOS 8.0 with the NVIDIA drivers. Anyone had any luck with that?

It looks like NVIDIA's drivers support PRIME for sharing between integrated
and discrete GPUs these days.

~~~
teknopaul
I believe the Optimus thing is broadly speaking fixed in Linux. Intel
integrated defo still preferable if you are not gaming or similar.

------
robabby
I just recently tried out a 2019 Razer Blade 15", and I love it. Working with
WSL in Windows 10 is very satisfying, or you can remove Windows and opt for
Ubuntu or whatever Linux you prefer. The Razer Blade hardware and build
quality is top-notch, and I can undersatnd why it was called the gamer's
Macbook Pro.

------
kutenai
Is there a feasible alternative? Simply put, no.

I'll stick with my mac(s) for the foreseeable future. I have 2 MacPros (2011
cheese graters) and 2 mac pros, 2014 and 2017. I read most of the complaints
(about Macs) here, and most of them are thin reasons to "not" use a mac.

\- I literally _NEVER_ turn my MBP's off. Just sleep them.

This works flawlessly 99.5% (estimated) of the time. I've never seen another
notebook with Windows (especially) or Linux that could handle that. Nobody
here claims that they do (so far) -- I read one complaint about power usage on
a Linux pad.. so I assume this is still the case. Sleep mode sucks on most
non-mac, not OSX machines

\- Trackpad. Nothing touches the Mac trackpad. Nothing.

\- App availability

I have so many _QUALITY_ apps I've gotten on mac that just have no equivalents
in Linux. Seriously, a TON, and more all the time. You can't even compare
Pixelmator to Gimp, and the list of apps that are much better on OSX goes on
and on.

\- No Sweat OS Linux is great if you want to configure the shit out of your
system. OSX is great if you want to NOT THINK MUCH about your system and just
work. I prefer to spend my time working.

 __So, it 's not all roses, we all hear the issues, keyboards have issues,
apple does not play nice with NVidia (sucks having a MacPro right now),
hardware __IS __more expensive... but, don 't get fooled by the "Grass is
greener on the other side" \-- you'll have to keep convincing yourself it was
a good mood, every single day.

Good luck with that

------
akudha
Has anyone used this one? [https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-
Toughbook-i5-7300U-Windows-...](https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-
Toughbook-i5-7300U-Windows-Warranty/dp/B07PXCY7S9/)

This series looks rugged, haven't heard it mentioned here (as far as I can
remember)

------
flanker
I was looking for something like that a few months back, took a gamble on LG
Gram. I have been using MBP(work) and Gram(home) side by side for past 3
months. Given the price and performance Gram for me hits it out of the park.
Cherry on top is that it's just ~900gms, with USB and HDMI, also upgradable
ram.

------
FpUser
As a laptop I have HP omen 15", i7 6 Cores, 32GB Ram, nVidia 1070 GPU and 2
SSDs (500GB and 1TB). I paid $1800 Canadian Pesos for it. Has Windows and
Linux Mint on it. Works like a charm. I can only imagine what would Mac with
the same power cost. Sure it is not as thin as Mac but what do I care.

------
joeevans1000
My next laptop will not be a MacBook. Sadly. I've used macs for decades, but
it's obvious they no longer listen to or care about the needs of developers. I
think musicians will soon follow. They will discover by losing it the social
value of having been the go to choice for those users.

------
adreamingsoul
I recently switched to the Lenovo Thinkpad P1 running Ubuntu. After 6 months
of use, I’m fairly happy with it.

~~~
jordanthoms
How is graphics switching working on those? AFAIK you need to use the discrete
card for HDMI/displayport, and integrated for best battery life, but switching
between them takes a reboot.

------
gothy
New Surface 3 Laptop combined with WSL2 looks promising.

Also, there're rumors on MBP 16" with a fixed(?) keyboard...

------
notadev
Like someone else suggested, the Dell XPS 13 is a good replacement as it's
sleek and light. As for the OS, I would recommend ElementaryOS. It is a
Debian/Ubuntu derivative, but it's aesthetic is specifically targeted to Linux
users who are coming from the Mac experience.

------
_of
I switched from a MBP 2017 model with touch bar to a Thinkpad X1 Carbon (6
gen). I installed Ubuntu Linux and I'm happy. I do all my work on this laptop.
But I've spent quite a lot of time getting the hardware to play nicely,
upgrading bios + a lot of Linux config tweaking.

------
iamsb
If you are mostly working from one location (home-office or office), I
recommend building a PC with linux running on it. Far more powerful and much
lesser cost. You can use any cheap laptop for computing on the go, preferably
one which is SSD only, and it fairly lightweight.

------
a-dub
Lenovo P1 and X1 look like they'd make great Linux laptops. Looking into an 8c
P1 now.

Also, great keyboards.

------
AlchemistCamp
I've always been pretty happy with Asus laptops and even their iMac-like "all-
in-one" computers. The high-end ones have great quality and the low-end ones
still have decent quality.

Another key factor for me is that unlike Apple, Asus offers good video cards!

~~~
krembo
I'm with Asus ZenBook UX461 bought more than a year ago. While it's not a
super-cool brand like Macs or Surfaces (my previous laptop), the ZenBook is
1/3 of the price and monsterly-packed with hardware superior to them (i7-8550
1.88GHz, 16GB of RAM, 512GB SSD and very light and good touch screen). Did my
homework, you can't beat that, and I've tried all the famous brands before.

~~~
jen_h
My UX303 has served me well for four years now, dropped several times, lugged
it around through all climes & my only major issue right now is that it’s
nearly impossible to find a good power adapter for it and the screen hinge is
loose.

Negatives: Required a lot of customization to get the trackpad right on Ubuntu
so I’ve got that to look forward when I upgrade, I hate glossy screens, and it
can act wonky if exposed to extreme humidity changes.

It’s fast, it’s light, it doesn’t typically get too hot, I’ve treated it like
garbage and it still delivers —- I’m starting to look around for a new one and
will probably stick with the line, but want something with a matte screen this
time for less annoying outside work, they’ve got a few models available.

------
paulsmal
Dell XPS 15 9570 4k with elementaryOS 5.0 (macOS like DE on top of Ubuntu
18.04) + libinput-gestures worked for me. Decent touchpad, keyboard's like
2015 MacBook Pro. I replaced wifi/Bluetooth model with one from Intel and
downvolted cpu (i7)

------
jayalpha
Al the options mentioned here are good.

Dell XPS ThinkPad Lenovo X1 Carbon

I use a Dell XPS with only 8GB RAM. This can be tight at times. I switched to
Ubuntu based Bodhi Linux and I am pretty happy about it. The RAM footprint is
very very low and the system is very snappy.

------
qubex
Quite honestly, and entirely coincidentally, I recently saw un boxings and
first hands-on videos with the Google Pixelbook Go, and I couldn’t help but
think “the i7 version with the UHD display would be fantastic as a Linux
laptop”.

------
kgarten
just switched to a Matebook Pro X with Arch Linux and could not be happier.
Slick, long battery life (around 10 hours with browser and neovim + latex for
writing). 3:2 screen perfect for writing everything working (except of the
finger print reader).

The webcam is at a strange place, yet you can be sure it is off and not
recording you, I just put the laptop on a book and it looks fine for telcos.

Dell and Lenovo are a no go for me.

Compared to Dell/Lenovo, Huawei didn't put spyware on their computers yet :)

If you want a decent linux laptop, I also use a Pruism Librem 15 ... Great,
the best if you are looking for a secure machine. It's my private one. Huawei
for work.

~~~
kgarten
Just wondering why I got downrated. Lenovo and Dell had documented spyware on
their computers.

We also know cisco and other American companies worked closely with the NSA
and put backdoors in their software and hardware.

Yes, Huawei is close to the Chinese government and there are definitely issues
with that. Yes, they had spyware on some phones. Still no documented case of
spyware on their computers :)

------
simplyinfinity
I'm super happy with my HP envy 13' with AMD Ryzen & vega graphics.

------
InTheArena
The biggest thing to tempt me, and the reason I may walk away from Mac is
native docker support. Docker for Mac is just a horrific hack, and a battery
killer. Hyper kit needs a lot of work.

Is docker on Windows reasonable with battery?

------
adchari
Thinkpad or Dell XPS with a nice Linux distro is the ultimate developer combo

------
pmorici
Check out the Panasonic CF-53 / CF-54 they are slim and rugged. Esp. if you
are rough on your equipment. All this ultra thin stuff if to fragile if you
actually need to move it around frequently.

------
seancork
I have went through a lot of differnt laptops, mainly had a lot of Dell
laptops but last year I decided to buy a Thinkpad T430 on ebay for close to
notting and it's the best laptop I have ever had.

------
haolez
I’m using a Chromebook. For programming tasks, I’ve been using web IDEs. When
I need something from Windows, I fire up an instance of it in a cloud provider
and access it via RDP. No problems so far :)

------
Jemm
Lenovo LS340 Gaming. Fantastic machine that has great specs at a good price.
Lenovo even managed to avoid filling it with bloatware.

It is not aluminium but looks good. No outward signs that it has a gaming
design.

------
totheDude
I thought this was about hardware. IMHO there are alternatives, but none is
chaper than the MBP. Dell hardware is crap, too many complaints online. I
would like Lenovo P1. More expensive than MBP…

------
Spark_Ed
I've personally loved the spectre series from HP for their 4k displays and
good specs for the price. I use a MSP16 for drafting and design work, so the
gpu is pretty critical for me.

------
rch
I'm planning on picking up a Purism Librem 15 in the near future; probably
January.

I've seen a few System 76 laptops at tech events around Boulder/Denver and
they seem solid as well.

~~~
jbotz
As I understand it, with Purism, if you want to "pick it up in January" you'd
better order it now! People have waited more than 3 months for theirs.

~~~
rch
Ah thanks, that's really good to know!

------
totheDude
I thought this was about hardware.

IMHO there are alternatives, but none is chaper than the MBP. Dell hardware is
crap, too many complaints online. I would like Lenovo P1. More expensive than
MBP…

------
rjplatte
Thinkpad X-series is the alternative with a more durable build and a
comparable pointing device. I would recommend any Thinkpad, but the X series
is absolutely fantastic.

------
skeptical900067
Thinkpad x220,IPS model, running xubuntu. Display is lacking, so I wouldn't
use it for illustration work. Otherwise, it has been months since I opened my
mbp.

------
remote_phone
I’m looking at Vaio. I had a Sony Vaio about 10 years ago and I still love it.
I have given up on buying a MBP because of Touchbar and the keyboard.

------
mikece
I love my Lenovo P50 — except when I have to do iOS work. If not for doing iOS
development I would be using Lenovo/Linux As my daily driver.

------
fraytormenta
I run with LG Gram 14" with Ubuntu Mate - happy!

------
kraig911
I just changed to a dell XPS 15. I love the nvidia discreet GPU and it's
keyboard and trackpad are pretty nice. And having a escape key.

------
lukaszkups
Just couple examples from me:

Asus Zenbook + Linux

Lenovo Carbon + Linux

Dell XPS + Linux

Surface Book 2 + Windows + WSL

------
mister_hn
Basically any latest laptop from Lenovo, Dell or Asus. You have also the
advantage that you can put Windows or Linux on it

------
setnone
can you share what was broken since January?

~~~
ryanmccullagh
Hi,

3 things broke. First it was a dead pixel on the screen, second was a
reproducible kernel panic (using any video chat application would panic the
kernel.). The last and hopefully final issue was the keyboard issue (double
keys, and weird issues with the key not pressing sometimes).

------
roadbeats
I use MBP 2015 at work, Macbook Air 2013 at home, run Arch Linux on both
devices (dual boot). Had no issues so far.

------
mxschumacher
I'm on my second Lenovo laptop (now T450s, before that: L-series). I use Linux
on it and am really satisfied.

------
coolness
Related to this, any thoughts on the surface laptop as an alternative to MBP?
Are the trackpad and keyboard good?

~~~
jbd28
Screen and aspect ratio are fantastic. Trackpad and keyboard feel “cheap”
compared to my wife’s 2016 MBP but I love the feel of the alcantara fabric
while I type

------
tikumo
Lenovo X1 Carbon, long battery time, nice resolution.. And one of the nicest
keyboards i've used.

------
JOLYJOKER
Máquina bien construida. macOS es genial. Portátil súper delgado y de 15 ". El
teclado está bien para mí. El rendimiento ha sido excelente para mí, no lento
pero supongo que se debe a macOS.

Ram y SSD que se están soldando no es un problema para mí, ¿necesita
actualizar? Venda su MBP y compre el nuevo (los dispositivos Apple conservan
mucho valor)

------
jankotek
XPS 13, onsite service is great and is also easy to replace parts by yourself.

------
hellofunk
The new razor blade 15 really caught my eye. Expensive, though.

------
fsloth
I really like my Surface Pro 4 i5 which is a few years old.

------
propercoil
Macbook Air > Macbook Pro just because of the keyboard

~~~
hdbsbv_shdbfb
I have MBP ‘18 and an Air ‘19 and I was surprised how much better the keyboard
is. I didn’t buy it for that reason — I just like to have a second, more
portable laptop for backup and convenience. It is much nicer to type on and
feels more rugged.

I agree with the general consensus here however — Apple needs to get its shit
together and stop pursuing meaningless marketing metrics and start making
great computers again.

SWEs / tech people (myself included) probably overestimate their importance
vis-a-vis Apple, but it would really only take one great alternative from
Razer or Lenovo or a new company to cause a mass exodus. That will definitely
not be good for Apple.

At this point I use Apple because they piss me off slightly less than the
alternatives let me down aesthetically. It’s hubris for Apple to assume that
will always be the case.

~~~
jordanthoms
Yeah, Lenovo is almost there with the X1 Carbon/Extreme and Razer's ones look
good too - if they'd just fix the trackpads and have officially supported
Linux with the Optimus problems fixed they'd be a great alternative.

------
sandGorgon
Dell XPS - its the sexiest laptop that runs Linux.

------
ykevinator
Huawei xmate pro running Ubuntu is a dream

------
shpx
Either the XPS 13 or a MacBook Air.

------
pbhowmic
there isn't one for me. I am primarily a back-end dev but I also develop for
iOS.

------
villgax
Razer Blade 15/17

------
megadeth
T480 with Linux

------
techslave
first you have to realize you want mac OS. then the options are clear. get a
used prior model MBP.

------
ducklingslicks
anyone possibly tldr'ed this thread and has just the usable answers to the
original question?

------
mav3rick
Chromebook

------
lazylizard
2 cents. I use any computer that has a keyboard,terminal, network n ssh.
Windows is the most terrible os, yes.

