
Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices - wut42
https://domainnamewire.com/2017/09/20/spanish-police-raid-cat-domain-name-registry-offices/
======
iagooar
It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least
in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though
many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake.

Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding
political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government
officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto suspending the
Catalonian autonomy and basically abandoning any democratic dialog.

Now, there is no going back. I wish the best of luck to my friends in
Catalonia. Shall they be allowed to express their desire to leave or stay in
Spain in peace. I wish no one to get hurt during these turbulent weeks.

~~~
mcdevilkiller
"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves"

The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want
Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have
the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from
it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as
per the constitution, it is illegal)

~~~
enriquto
What do you mean? in the scottish referendum only scots voted, not all brits.
Are you saying that all spaniards (not only those living in Catalonia) should
vote in the referendum? I don't see how this makes any sense.

~~~
pvaldes
Spain is for all the spaniards. All have the same basic rights as the right to
move freely inside the entire country, to work and live when they want inside
its frontiers and to decide together about the destiny of their country. With
logical exceptions (like requiring granted access to private areas); this
super-basic concept is in use in _all_ free and democratic countries of the
world.

New York people can't wake up some day, like a single man, and decide that
Texans (or Floridians, or afroamericans), can not enter in the state anymore,
their basic rights are expired and they have 48 hours to quit the place
leaving its properties behind. Some people would point to the fair "self-
determination right" from Newyorkers. Some even would shamelesly call this
situation democracy, but it isn't. Would be a huge scam. NY are only a small
part of the people that are USA citizens, and the other people have the f*ing
right to express their opinion about that. No matter how peculiar, colorful,
or different than other places is the city.

In the same way Barcelona can not wake up some day and decide that people from
Sevilla aren't allowed anymore to decide about the future of Barcelona and
must quit the place. Unless of course we would aim to happily nuke the basic
rights of 39 millions of citizen that are non-catalonian spaniards (to improve
the chances for the 1-2 million of people than want Catalonia out of Spain).
Is also a scam. Is a riged game. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and
this constant actitude of I'm holier than thou so I must be allowed to speak
but you can't is incredibly upsetting.

~~~
Oletros
> Spain is for all the spaniards. All have the same basic rights as the right
> to move freely inside the entire country, to work and live when they want
> inside its frontiers and to decide together about the destiny of their
> country. With logical exceptions (like requiring granted access to private
> areas); this super-basic concept is in use in all free and democratic
> countries of the world.

Think that has nothing to do with a part of an state voting their secession
and not the whole country.

A question to all of the people that say that the whole country should vote.

What would you do if more than 70% of the population of a part of the state
would be independent? Allow them the independence and start the negotiations
or don't allow>

~~~
pvaldes
As said before, this 70% of the local population would represent, lets say, a
mere 10% of the total population.

So if one of each ten people voted for "yes to A", and the other nine people
voted for "no to A". What should happen in a democratic system?.

Well, the idea here is that you has the freedom to choose among two nice
options: "yes to A" and "repeat the process until yes to A is achieved" or
"start negociations to circumnavigate what people really wanted". But this is
not a dictatorship, of course; we are a democratic modern society unlike the
spaniards, those savages.

And talking about semi-naked savages, this reminds me that extra-nice 2008
campaign launched by Catalonian independentists: "support a spanish child with
more money from Catalonia". It seems that this is how they see the other
spaniards. Nice image. It isn't?.

[http://img.rtve.es/imagenes/apadrina-nino-
extremeno/12174362...](http://img.rtve.es/imagenes/apadrina-nino-
extremeno/1217436290528.jpg)

Because poor children is a perfectly fine theme to make some good laughs (They
are poor, ha-haa!).

To finish, and taking in mind several harassments and repeated BS like this in
the last decade, I think that a lot of people in Spain would vote
enthusiastically about sending this people out of Spain, even better, why not
to Mars?, to build the New Castelldefells and live their futuristic utopia
happy forever in the red planet.

~~~
Oletros
I repeat the question, because it seems that you have not understood it.

If a 70% of the population of a territory (and I'm not talking about
Catalonia, because there is no majority for independence) wants to secede,
what the State should do?

~~~
pvaldes
> it seems that you have not understood the question.

I did, and have provided a very clear answer to the question in fact.

What the government of a country should do if a group of people declare
themselves on sedition, start refusing to pay taxes, wants to steal all public
resources, harass and drive out of the place the people that think different,
take their properties and piss generously on the constitutional rights of the
majority of the citizens?

Enforce the law, obviously

"But, but, I want to ignore and twist the law in my benefit!. I should be
allowed to do it, because I'm special!, my mom told me!"

You can violate the laws everytime that you want, as long as you accept the
consequences, and repair the damage caused to other members of the society.

~~~
Oletros
No, you have not understood the question. I'm not talking of what is happening
in Catalonia this days. Because in Catalonia there is no majority of people
defending independence.

I'm asking what happens if in a part of a territory the vast majority of
population doesn't want to be part of that country.

If you want to talk of Catalonia, I can ask what the Central Government can do
when 82% of the population (and this includes half of people that wants
independence and half of people that doesn't want independence) would defend a
LEGAL and proper done referendum.

~~~
pvaldes
Ok, enough of running in circles chasing our tails.

The answer to your deliberately ambiguous question is the same. Enforce the
law.

> What if a lot of people do not want to remain in this country?

They will pack, leave and try to migrate and be accepted under the umbrella of
other countries typically. It is happening a lot in the last decades, by good
(and sad) reasons.

> What if the majority of people would hate their country (but want to remain
> in it).

They could use the tools specified in the law to change the bad parts and
improve their country democratically. As they are a majority, they are
probably doing this yet since years. They must have in mind still that there
are international laws and treaties.

> What would happen if 100% of USA demand the independence from themselves and
> require to be called "Pantsdemonium, the land of the pants-free" from now
> on?

Just a change of name (and interesting parties, like the national day of the
duck and so). On the other hand, if you can't stand to be in the same room
with yourself, go to see a doctor as soon as possible.

> and if it was the 90%?

A change of name plus a 10% of people driven off their own country, typically
by violent means, if we study the human history.

> and if it was the 85.45342%?

the same... and more people in exodus.

~~~
Oletros
And you still don't answer.

My question is not ambiguous.

And looking at your "hate", I think that you prefer what happened in
Jugoslavia and not what happened in Czechoslovakia

~~~
pvaldes
Enforce the law

------
gfiorav
I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but:

You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in
the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even
the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so
outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia
(very much like the central government) is riddled with corruption. Public
workers have been pressured to accept participation in the referendum (which
is ilegal to do).

And just to finish: if you’re going to reference any prior “referendum” know
that it’s not only ilegal like this one (thus no observers, nor accurate
census) but also take into account participation (usually very low).

In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side.
There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that
(30-40%) support for independence.

~~~
tomjen3
We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is
active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying
to make this go violent.

~~~
gfiorav
This is the thing: the referendum is ilegal according to constitution (agreed
on by Catalans in the 70s).

We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different
thing.

These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the
vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make
exceptions.

~~~
nsnick
We can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of
line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed
repression by the Spanish government.

~~~
gfiorav
My point is:

How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the
people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not
stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you
not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?

~~~
nsnick
If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would
be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people
up because they want to hold an election.

~~~
gfiorav
Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which
ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale.

If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a
procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think
there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.

~~~
kiliancs
The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch
as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it.

Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for
example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According
to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take
place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to
find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes,
given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution.

Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to
self-determination or they exercise it.

Some relevant sources:

Referendum Law:
[http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta...](http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resultats_fitxa/?action=fitxa&documentId=796531&language=ca_ES)

The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a
Commission of International Experts):
[https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...](https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY_Catalogne.pdf)

~~~
notspanishflu
The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish
Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law.

[https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...](https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_991126.html)

~~~
kiliancs
Thats false. You'll find it usually in the first articles:

\- Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1 (Purposes and Principles), article
1.2: "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the
principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other
appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace" [1]

\- International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, article 1.1
(check out other points and article 2): All peoples have the right of self-
determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political
status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. [2]

\- International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, article 1.1: [pretty
much same text as International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural
Rights) [3]

\- Spanish Constitution, part 1 (Fundamental Rights and Duties), Section 10.2:
"Provisions relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognized by the
Constitution shall be construed in conformity with the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights and international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by
Spain." [4]

Though you only had to check Wikipedia: "The right of people to self-
determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly
regarded as a jus cogens rule)" [5]

[1] [http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-
charter/chapter-i/index.htm...](http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-
charter/chapter-i/index.html)

[2]
[http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.asp...](http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.aspx)

[3]
[http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx](http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx)

[4]
[http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Pa...](http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Paginas/titulo_primero.aspx)

[5] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
determination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination)

------
monodeldiablo
When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most
of pre-war Yugoslavia.

"Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power
and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check.
Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity?
Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-
era atrocities? Check. A staunch refusal by the central government to engage
in meaningful dialogue with aggrieved regions and peoples? Check. Brutal
repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations, inspiring ever-more-radical
nationalism... All the ingredients are there."

"Nah," I said. "Spain's a stable republic! There's no way it'll descend into a
Yugoslavia-style death fest."

She just arched her eyebrow. "War was unthinkable to us right up until the
moment the JNA started shelling us. It's a miracle Spain's still one country,
honestly."

The more I learn -- about both Yugoslavia and Spain -- the more I fear she was
right.

~~~
dawkins
"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable
republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside
that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic
things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not
support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little
example of the "oppresion" you talk about. They have pushed the government to
the limit and they have to do something.

~~~
severino
> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to
> educate their children in Spanish

I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the
same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least
not in Spain.

> mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals

Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supporting it.

~~~
notspanishflu
"I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice".

But there is the right. Is in the Spanish Constitution. Article 3.

~~~
somecontext
For context for those interested, Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution says
the following (translated into English):

"1\. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards
have the duty to know it and the right to use it. 2\. The other Spanish
languages shall also be official in the respective Autonomous Communities in
accordance with their Statutes. 3\. The wealth of the different language
modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be the object of
special respect and protection."

------
plehoux
I'm amazed by how the Spanish government manages all of this. Haven't they
study independence movements in Canada and the U.K.?

The only reason Quebec is not a country is that the Canadian government kept a
'somewhat' cool head during the two referendums.

Breaking Point is a damn good CBC documentary about the Quebec referendum:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y)

~~~
ghostDancer
It's Spain, the politicians in the government are using it to cover that they
have more than 800 members of their party being under investigation or even
prosecuted from corruption. The governing party is being investigated for
having using black money to pay for elections among other things like getting
rich. They embrace themselves inside the Spanish flag and the unity of the
country.

~~~
dawkins
To be fair the regional government is even more corrupt and do exactly the
same thing. Even more and also play the victim card

------
notatoad
context: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-41331152](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152)

(the spanish police seem to be raiding anything that could potentially be
related to catalonian independence)

------
Mc_Big_G
Funny to see all these Non-Spanish commenters that think they know what
they're talking about. My wife is from Barcelona. I just spent 2 weeks there.
Most Catalonians think the split, and the minority of people seeking it are
fucking stupid. They are the Trumpsters of Spain. Truly strange to see most
people here supporting the separatists. I don't necessarily agree with Spain's
methods of dealing with this but many of you have got it wrong. Like, badly
wrong.

~~~
icebraining
If not being Spanish prevents one from having informed opinions, what makes
you right?

Since we measuring Spanish penises, I'm half-Spanish myself and I find the
characterization of "Trumpists" to be absurd. Yes, they are probably a
minority, but so what? As for finding them fucking stupid, that's just
politics, especially nowadays. Lots of people find Podemos to be fucking
stupid, yet they still got 20%+ of the whole population vote.

In any case, people here are arguing for the principle, not the people. The
analogy is not with supporting Trump, it's with defending his right to run at
all. Now, the cases are different, but the point stands: defending the right
to a referendum is not the same as defending a certain result.

------
rcarmo
Fortunately, [https://http.cat](https://http.cat) is still up. Don’t know what
I would do without it when I try to explain HTTP to business decision makers.

------
descala
This is an example of a seized web site
[http://ref1oct.cat/](http://ref1oct.cat/) it had information about the poll.

The JS in the source is really sad, one of the options click baits you to an
Spanish sports newspaper.

~~~
nsnick
Wow the coat of arms of the Spanish government still has a fasces on it? You
learn something every day.

~~~
elros
Spain has been an actual fascist state, so historically this is unrelated, but
you may find it interesting to know that it's also present quite prominently
at the US Congress[0] as well as in the US Senate's seal[1].

[0]
[http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/icke110_...](http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/icke110_01a.jpg)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Sena...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Senate)

------
snvzz
What happened here:

\- judge told .cat TLD to take over some domains, setting them to display a
spanish police landing page.

\- .cat complied.

\- Judge told .cat TLD to censor any domain that does support the referendum
in any way.

\- .cat replied that they run a TLD, that it's not their job to act as a
censorship agency, inspecting each domain and disabling those that host
websites that talk about topics that a judge specified are forbidden.

\- .cat notified the ICANN of the situation they're in:
[https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/lineros...](https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/lineros-
to-marby-17sep17-en.pdf)

\- police raided the TLD office, and arrested its CTO at his home.

This is in some EU member country in western Europe.

------
kartan
The internet is not isolated from the physical world. Some times "the cloud"
seems like an ethereal place, but in the end there are servers somewhere with
hardware that can break, that needs maintenance and that can be confiscated by
the government. Technology doesn't solves political problems, it just makes
governments more efficient.

------
notspanishflu
It's really funny listening to the President of the government of Catalonia
talking about repression when his salary is 145.471 euros, and the President
of the government of Spain salary is 78.185,04 euros.

Yep, the public salary of many presidents of a part of Spain is bigger than
the president of the whole.

That's for give you a picture of the current craziness.

~~~
bassman9000
You won't get many responses because the PC thing is to side with Catalonia,
but this is the whole story: a money grab scheme. It's been going on for ages.
With B- debt rating, collapsing health care system, and massive public
spending on things like the one you mention, they simply need money. Plan
post-independence is to seize all public assets belonging to the Spanish state
(funds, buildings, public companies, ...), while retaining their first
customer (the rest of Spain), pay no tariffs (stay in EU), and no taxes to
central state.

Before anyone answer with "but the Spanish state too": yes, same shit, which
doesn't invalidate anything I said.

edit: wording

~~~
notspanishflu
The 'original sin' is the political over-representation of the nationalist
parties because both PSOE and PP have needed their support for the Spanish
government most of the time. In exchange of too much concessions, of course.

~~~
Oletros
> The 'original sin' is the political over-representation of the nationalist
> parties

Or you don't know about Spanish election system or you'r just lying. I think
is the former.

There is no over-representation of nationalist parties, there is a over-
representation of both majority parties, PP and PSOE.

Almost all the provinces have 3 diputates and the third pary doesn't have any
representation.

------
Markoff
watch Barbra Streisand effect live

prior this mess, most of the people were against leaving, after this I am not
so sure...

------
IncRnd
A constitution defines a government, and it is a poorly written constitution
that is instead used to limit people's determinism.

------
6t6t6t6
At this point, what is happening in Catalonia is not a fight for Independence;
it is a fight for Democracy and against the authoritarianism of the central
government.

Catalan institutions have been raided, Catalan members of the government have
been arrested, and their crime is to work towards allowing Catalans vote about
their future.

------
justin66
For the less familiar who want to get up to speed on some of the medium-term
background, this actually isn't bad:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence)

------
627467
This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-
state. The people have the right to divorce and the state has the right to
maintain its unity against all.

It's like Spain is trying to push Catalonians to violence.

~~~
adventured
> This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of
> nation-state.

Your premise is contradictory. You're claiming that Catalonia trying to form
its own nation-state is a proof that the nation-state is breaking down. The
exact opposite is the case: the nation-state is so desirable that Catalonia
wants to form its own.

~~~
627467
I'm highlighting the failure of the Spanish nation-state to resolve this
situation or least de-escalating it.

------
tobltobs
Under the assumption that for the next 10-20 years Catalonia wouldn't be
allowed to join the EU, could someone of the pro separate group explain how a
independent state of Catalonia is supposed to survive?

~~~
Oletros
The problem here is not the secession, it is the right to vote.

I'm Catalan, I'm against the independence, one reason is because I don't give
a shit about being Spanish or Catalan, another is because the politicians here
are exactly equally corrupts than the Spanish ones and economics ones.

But what I want is the right to have a referendum and vote no.

Funny thing is that if the entral government wanted to destroy the independist
movement they could have modified the Constitution and allow that consult, the
majority here is against the independence.

What a majority wants here is the right to vote

~~~
notspanishflu
Sure. Just a coincidence that kind of speech 'we just want to vote', 'I'm
going to say no but want to vote in this illegal referendum', I only hear it
from secessionists.

~~~
monodeldiablo
There's no better way to change his vote to a definite "yes" than by refusing
to allow him to voice his opinion.

If Madrid listened half as well as it sneered, I suspect they'd have better
relations with all their immediate neighbors.

~~~
notspanishflu
Man, the obsession with 'Madrid'! I think all Spaniards have a voice in this.

~~~
monodeldiablo
If your wife wants to divorce you, do you think she should require your
permission first?

------
tryingagainbro
This has very little to do with internet freedom etc; Catalonia has threatened
to leave Spain via a referendum. There are very few things countries will
_not_ do to keep the country together. Think of "war on terror" on steroids.

~~~
dogma1138
Yes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum.

/s

~~~
tryingagainbro
Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah
in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but
Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples.

IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and
not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above
that.

~~~
kiliancs
Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in
international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many
international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union.

For years Catalonia has formally requested for this right to be exercised in
different ways, and the Spanish government has made every effort to stop any
possible way to channel this right. This has continued until today, when the
Spanish militarized police has raided the Catalan institutions and arrested
members of the Catalan government that was elected with the mandate to let
Catalans exercise this right in spite of the official Spanish position, which
it's trying to do through a referendum where both positions in favor and
against independence may have equal opportunities to be heard.

Spain has always defended that this right to self-determination is confined to
colonies because it would otherwise conflict with the also very important
principle of territorial integrity. However, the International Court of
Justice explained in its Advisory Opinion of 22 July 2010 regarding the case
of Kosovo that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is
confined to the sphere of relations between States”. Thus, even unilateral
declarations of independence do not conflict with the aforementioned
principle: “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of
declarations of independence“.[0]

[0] [http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf](http://www.icj-
cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf)

~~~
tryingagainbro
_“general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations
of independence“_

Sure, you can declare all day but who will recognize you and if it's "illegal"
in the country you want to leave, you will be jailed. If they do the ethnic
cleansing that Serbia did in Kosovo then, you may have a better chance
internationally. Changing of borders is frowned upon, almost every country has
their own issues.

------
sunshi23
What a waste of click bait opportunity!

------
victornomad
isnt it the second time this has been posted today? :/

