
The Indian Miracle-Buster Stuck in Finland - anishkothari
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26815298
======
tejaswiy
The problem with India is that even highly educated, otherwise rational people
put their thinking mind aside and give in to superstition.

Consider Dr. Radhakrishnan, the head of ISRO (Indian space research org.) -
Before every rocket that ISRO launches, he visits Tirupati, a holy site in
India to pray for its success. Now, I realize this is far cry from people
drinking sewage water, but if the head of the Indian space program is this
superstitious, what can you say about the rest of the country?

~~~
sremani
Being religious is not superstition. The serenity prayer nicely puts things in
perspective - there are many things beyond human control that can cause
failure - if going to Tirupathi gets him in the zone all the power to him.

~~~
bane
Religion is by definition superstition. It just depends on how okay you are
with superstitious beliefs. Sometimes you can get benefit from them courage or
art or motivation to live a better life, sometimes they muddle your critical
thinking skills and do a sloppy job solving problems because you believe some
higher power will take care of the details.

"Being outside the realm of human control and understanding" is not what
superstition means.

~~~
enscr
> Religion is by definition superstition

For some, Religion encompasses superstition, but it goes beyond that.

For others, Religion is "Dharma" [1]. It's a way of life / discipline.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma)

~~~
bane
Dharma is also a superstition. People put too much negative weight on the term
superstition. Dharma is a way of life driven by one of some set of
superstition beliefs.

If you doubt this, ask a series of "why?" questions about Dharma and drill
down into it until you stop hitting rational thought and start hitting belief
about the nature of the universe and belief about the importance of righteous
action.

~~~
enscr
You are blurring the distinction to drive home your point. The fact is,
superstition carries a negative connotation. Discipline does not.

~~~
bane
It doesn't really matter though, Dharma is still a superstition. So is not
changing socks when your baseball team is in the championships.

Trying to parse it from other superstitions doesn't change the meaning or
existence of the word, nor the fact that it's still classified under that
category.

~~~
enscr
Speaking for myself, religion/dharma is not hurting others and being honest.
It's not based on superstition, it just makes me feel happy. Happy is healthy.

Point being, the meaning of these terms are too broad to tag & generalize them
with a few words.

------
guard-of-terra
"But the furore has not died down - the Catholic Secular Forum (CSF), one of
the groups that made the initial complaint, still insists it will press for
prosecution should he ever return."

I think that we should be petitioning Pope so he would tell this CFS to cease,
desist and disassemble. He may issue Papal bull, for example.

I don't remember catholics being eager on self-proclaimed wonders.

~~~
juliocc
Doesn't matter if they're Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or whatever. This is
religious fanaticism at its best.

~~~
ginko
The difference with Catholicism being that it has one indisputable leader.

~~~
schoen
Mostly indisputable. :-)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope)

~~~
ginko
Which lead to mutual excommunication(as these things usually go).

------
suprgeek
The problem is that the laws in India are very poorly worded, often
misunderstood and arbitrarily applied.

All of this gives the overworked & corrupt Indian police almost limitless
discretion on what to enforce & against whom. It also provides a sufficiently
motivated grudge bearer an easy way to Shut up someone (or worse) that is
making an unpopular argument.

There are several laws in this ugly bucket - "Hurting the religious sentiments
of a group"

"Defamation..."

"Obscene content"

"Promoting Enemity between religions"

"Inciting Violence..."

The extremely vague "IT Act" also adds a digital dimension to this nonsense -
where you have people Jailed for "liking" Facebook posts
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/10/03/freedom_on_...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/10/03/freedom_on_the_net_the_countries_where_you_can_go_to_jail_for_liking_something.html)

Just a terrible mess over there legally....

As if this was not enough rationalists are always in danger in a place like
India (having personally been affected by this I can attest that this is
infact very real - two reasonable people can argue but it is hard to talk to
some one threatening you). One more link to put the very real threat this
gentlemen faces in context:[http://www.in.com/news/current-affairs/cbi-files-
fir-in-nare...](http://www.in.com/news/current-affairs/cbi-files-fir-in-
narendra-dabholkar-murder-case-52790476-in-1.html)

Dr Dabholkar was gunned down in broad daylight, while out for a walk on a busy
road.

~~~
sriku
Counsellors ("shrinks" in the US?) recognize that nobody can "hurt your
feelings" unless you permit them to as well. i.e. there is contribution on the
side of those "feeling hurt" as well as the party "doing the hurting". Given
that, we need to divide the accusation into three parts - a) was there any
intention to "hurt the feelings of people", b) were there any lies uttered as
an instrument that could have effected hurt and c) should we consider the
"hurt" felt when facts are being revealed valid for legal purposes.

In the case of Sanal, (b) is certainly not the case since he's talking about
facts he found in his investigation, and we need only examine (a) and (c).

Sanal is certainly not inciting violence _between_ religious groups even by
accident. So that's out. Sanal is a "myth buster" in the public eye - i.e. has
permanently adopted a skeptical stance in matters of "miracles". Given the
amount of evidence he's personally seen in this matter, we might at least give
him the human allowance of a snarkiness that might have developed and which he
might have expressed. Maybe mild cause for (a) perhaps, but insignificant in
my opinion given his reputation.

Rgd (c), I think this whole category of "hurt" ought to be legally excludable
and as far as I've read there doesn't seem to be any constitutional provision
to do so. Truth hurts people when it shatters a belief that they have attached
their self worth to. If someone feels "hurt" when presented with facts (at
least facts at hand, leaving aside "historical facts" for the moment), this
kind of hurt should not be cause for legal action.

I wish the "duty of a citizen of India to develop a scientific temper" were
interpreted in this manner when it comes to actionable forms of hurt.

edit: tpyo (b) -> (a)

------
manishsharan
I wish they had posted a link to where I could send this gentleman some money.
This world , India particularly, needs more people fighting religious
superstition.

~~~
enscr
You can get in touch with him here :
[https://twitter.com/SanalEdamaruku](https://twitter.com/SanalEdamaruku)

Kudos to the gentleman for his relentless struggle against superstition.

------
javajosh
Ed Snowden is our Sanal Edamaruku. Sanal is blowing the whistle on more
traditional superstition, Snowden is revealing that our beliefs in the
"goodness" of government - particularly in the realm of self-restraint and
general respect for our citizens - are also superstitions. And in the same
way, large chunks of America are calling for his death, too.

The lesson? It's remarkable how angry and violent people get when their
beliefs are challenged - and this anger and violence seems proportional to the
ignorance of those beliefs. It makes one yearn for the day when superstition
is ended once and for all, and people can live in the real world according to
the best evidence of their senses.

~~~
briantakita
> It makes one yearn for the day when superstition is ended once and for all,
> and people can live in the real world according to the best evidence of
> their senses.

A problem with that statement is peoples' senses differ. Whether you believe
in extra senses or not, you would need to have everybody agree with you.
There's also intuition & emotional motivation.

It's easy to imagine a dystopia where only mainstream "senses" and
"intelligence" are recognized as truth and people who have abilities that are
not mainstream are shunned and persecuted.

~~~
javajosh
A superstition-free world would not be totally free of the disagreement born
of differing perceptions. But it would be free of disagreement born of
irrational prejudice. Error can't be eliminated, but it can be minimized.

There's another, possibly even more profound benefit. Superstition's harm is
less about what you perceive phenomena, but rather more insidiously removes
the motivation to look more deeply into phenomena. E.g. it's a second-order
issue. The Indian Catholics didn't _want_ Sanal to find the toilet leak cause
of the miracle. They willfully closed their eyes to other possibilities
because of their faith.

What is more harmful than an idea that inspires it's adherents to _close their
own eyes to reality_?

~~~
briantakita
> What is more harmful than an idea that inspires it's adherents to close
> their own eyes to reality?

There is a difference between Existence & Reality. Reality is based on
perspective of Existence. Thus Reality is relative and seen by some as
"mutable" (though I prefer the functional "immutable" view of a Reality).

So the adherents you are talking about are viewing Reality perfectly well.
It's just their Reality is different from yours. Now if their Reality is based
on an illusion, like the bad plumbing in the OP, there's the matter of
changing their perception & Reality by exposing the illusion.

> But it would be free of disagreement born of irrational prejudice.

What is irrational is in the eye of the beholder & heavily influenced by
culture. To your point, some cultures are closer to absolute truth (less based
on illusion) than others.

However, even Rationality is based on a culturally defined Reality. What was
Rational 100 years ago in America may not be Rational today.

As humanity progresses, we expose the truth and create more illusion in
different areas of Existence.

------
denzil_correa
The most disappointing part of this entire story is

    
    
        Cardinal Oswald Gracias of Mumbai tried to broker a 
        solution by calling upon Edamaruku to apologise and on  
        Catholic groups to drop their case in return.
    

The Cardinal should have upheld the freedom on expression of Edamaruku rather
than giving in to the fundamentalists. Instead, he tried to conjure up a
political solution.

~~~
anigbrowl
Bear in mind that the outrage was only partially about the debunking of the
miracle, but also about the suggestion that it had been engineered by the
church to fleece people. My personal experience is that people will basically
put up with having factual errors pointed out (even if they feel embarrassed
by it), but imputing motivations is both pointless (because intent is often
not amenable to proof) and dangerous (because people take that kind of thing
far more personally).

~~~
denzil_correa
I get your point but I still find the Cardinal's response lukewarm. The
Cardinal should have just said that the church did not do it to fleece people
or collect money.

------
CapitalistCartr
This reminds me of the word "reasonable". I rarely hear this word used
correctly; it seems to mean to people, "Agree with me". Usually it goes
something like:

"Two plus two equals eight."

"No, it equals four."

"OK, hardass, how about seven."

"No, its four."

"C'mon, be reasonable, let's compromise on six."

That's what a reasonable compromise means in this case.

------
neil_s
I suspect the threat to him isn't from mindless mobs unwilling to change their
beliefs, but the holy men who stand to lose out on their posh lifestyles if
their bullshit is exposed.

Case in point: [http://www.odditycentral.com/news/golden-baba-indian-holy-
ma...](http://www.odditycentral.com/news/golden-baba-indian-holy-man-tells-
followers-to-live-frugally-but-drapes-himself-in-gold.html)

Its these guys who have the resources to get whistle-blowers killed off
relatively quietly.

------
drzaiusapelord
Christ, no wonder so many Indians flee to the west. I can't imagine what being
a smart, secular, and skeptical person in that culture feels like.

~~~
Glyptodon
Go live in small town America.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Fine, but if you read the article he's fleeing blasphemy laws. Small town
America won't arrest me for saying that Kreskin is bullshit or that I'm not
religious. I never understood why there's this hysterical knee-jerk reaction
to every criticism of any country with 'but its just as bad in the US.' No,
its not.

~~~
logfromblammo
The criminal justice system is not the only means employed by American
communities to punish deviancy.

Small town America will not arrest you for being atheist, but you may be
passed over for promotion, your children may be bullied while outside of your
protection, you will have a difficult time participating in local culture, and
you will not enjoy the same sort of "slack" extended to the "in" crowd. It
would also be unwise to buy a house with HOA covenant restrictions, as you may
find that the lawn and landscaping of atheists are held to higher standards
than those of households attending the same church as the HOA president.

Small and petty-minded people are everywhere on this planet. They will go as
far as everyone else allows them to go. And wherever they are the majority,
all others beware.

So some places, they just kill you. Other places, they make you want to kill
yourself. Either way, you are surrounded by people that have no respect for
individuality. In that sense, it is as bad, but obviously, being murdered
arbitrarily is worse than not ever being invited to the neighborhood barbecue.

Either way, you have to either hide your true nature or move somewhere less
hostile.

~~~
crusso
_but you may be passed over for promotion_

Why single out "Small town America"? It wasn't that long ago that here on HN,
many were calling for the resignation of the Mozilla CEO because of his
political position on gay marriage.

Being an atheist in some small towns is no worse for your career than being a
Fundamentalist Christian in Hollywood.

I say this as an atheist: Obnoxious toe-the-line political correctness is in
all corners of our society.

~~~
hga
Indeed, as far as I can tell an atheist/agnostic (the latter would be me and
my father) who's minimally respectful of the religious will have a much easier
time of it here than a conservative (that would also be me and my father) in
those various enlightened big cities and industries. As long as you can
tolerate the occasional born again Christian who wants to save you (again,
politeness goes a long way).

As for LGBT issues, if I just restrict it to "gay bashing", the lists here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States)
and here
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States)
show that big cities are not even vaguely immune to the problem.

(Although I'd caveat those lists of incidents based on the ones I actually
know something about: Harvey Milk and George Moscone weren't killed because
the former was gay, but because of SF city politics and their murderer's
personal problems (that the conviction was for manslaughter with a short
sentence, well, the Twinkie defense is another reason SF is infamous). The
1999 Fort Campbell incident was _not_ as generally portrayed, although my
information is not citable, comes from the son of a good friend who was there,
collected evidence, etc. And lately the beautification of Matthew Shepard has
come under serious reexamination.)

Perhaps because so many of these cities were and still are very anti-effective
self-defense, there's this partial answer to the problem which is much more
applicable in "small town America":
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols)

------
argumentum
The legal issues boil down to weak protection by Indian Constitution, which
allows freedom of expression _only for things that would never need freedom of
expression_.

 _Under Indian law, the freedom of speech and of the press do not confer an
absolute right to express one 's thoughts freely.Clause (2) of Article 19 of
the Indian constitution enables the legislature to impose certain restrictions
on free speech under following heads:

I. security of the State, II. friendly relations with foreign States, III.
public order, IV. decency and morality, V. contempt of court, VI. defamation,
VII. incitement to an offence, and VIII. sovereignty and integrity of India._

\-
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_India)

This is in a way similar to European notions of freedom of speech. In Europe,
you can't deny the holocaust for example.

We should be grateful that the US founders left no room for ambiguity in our
Bill of Rights.

------
izzydata
That is quite embarrassing for whoever claimed that statue drip to be some
kind of miracle. Embarrassing enough to kill over? I guess so.

~~~
mikeash
If they feel the need to murder somebody, surely the idiot who got people to
drink sewage should be the target, not the guy who said, "hey, you're drinking
sewage."

------
known
Most racist people
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-
map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/)

------
dharmach
He was active in Indian Rationalist Association since long time and in 1990s
he visited many villages exposing miracles. Only when he exposed Catholic
miracle he got in trouble. It shows how much Catholic money and muscle power
is capable in a country where Christian population is 2.3%.

------
ableal
Just a couple of days ago I re-read the first of G. K. Chesterton's Father
Brown stories. The closing is apropos:

 _" [...] But, as a matter of fact, another part of my trade, too, made me
sure you weren’t a priest.”

“What?” asked the thief, almost gaping.

“You attacked reason,” said Father Brown. “It’s bad theology.”_

------
tn13
Honestly this news article looks like a PR job for this man withe objective of
getting publicity and/or other help from sympathizers in West.

Ironically, this method was employed by Christian missionaries like Mother
Teresa to gather wealth from west.

------
tosseraccount
What about standing up to bad people in their own country? If everyone flees
from the crooks, kleptocrats and nuts, then the crooks, kleptocrats and nuts
win. Somebody has to stand up to them someday.

~~~
icambron
You're asking him to prioritize the glory of "standing up" over his life.
That's an absurd expectation to put on a human being, and it's not clear that
it would accomplish anything anyway.

~~~
srean
I dont have problems with people having such expectations as long as they
themselves lead by example. Its too easy to pass judgments about what personal
risk somebody else is supposed to take from a position of safety and
anonymity.

EDIT @icambron minor point, my position is the converse of what you
interpreted: i.e. If you are going to tell me what to do then lead by example.

~~~
icambron
I agree with your second sentence, but not your first. "I'm willing to die for
my causes so you should be willing to die for yours." No thanks.

------
tn13
The article 295A which makes it illegal to criticize religion in India was
introduced by British to protect Islam from criticism. It is not being used by
all religions to assert their political power.

------
davidgerard
RationalWiki article:
[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku)

------
abc_lisper
Is there something we could do to help this guy in anyway?

------
briantakita
There's something about eating sacred cows. We often see anger & disrespect
when someone says something contrary to the group belief.

Many people & groups don't like their reality challenged by another.

~~~
hnal943
I don't think anyone _likes_ it when their reality is challenged. That part
seems universal.

------
imaginenore
This shows two things

1) How weak people's faith is

2) How religionists behave when in power

If you seriously believe in something, let's say, the moon orbiting the earth,
and some nut-job would claim it's just a piece of cheese floating in the sky,
would it bother you? No, you would just laugh and move on.

------
josephschmoe
Meta: What does this have to do with hacking? This thread is a perfect
breeding grounds for xenophobia and religion bashing. Those are both things we
do not need here.

