
Dremel Releases a Mass-Market 3D Printer - zaaaaz
http://makezine.com/2014/09/17/dremel-3d-printer-idea-builder/
======
jglauche
I'm under the impression that a LOT of companies are currently thinking that
they miss their market right now if they don't bring out a 3d printer.
Actually, the market is not that big and over-saturated with printers right
now. The vendors (this goes especially to the big ones) are missing one
critical point: They haven't made it easy enough for Joe User to create
printable 3d designs. The "mass" will not buy a product like that if they
don't understand why they need it for and also not if they don't have access
to easy and powerful tools to make actually good use of it.

~~~
Ccecil
Over-saturated is an understatement..it is getting pretty bad.

[http://www.3ders.org/pricecompare/3dprinters/](http://www.3ders.org/pricecompare/3dprinters/)

I am sure that is not nearly all of them :)

The design is always an issue when printing too. Customers rarely design their
models to be printed because they don't fully understand the process. If you
design correctly you can get away with very little support material and still
get very detailed models..if not then you end up with either a poorly printed
object or significant detail loss on the surfaces from support material
removal.

Maybe some plugins for popular CAD programs might be helpful...at least some
sort of "ray" plugin that would show where your trouble overhangs/support
material generation will be located. At least for training purposes.

~~~
justsee
I'm not sure a few pages of 3d printers covering a price range from $140-$846
000 is really any evidence of over-saturation.

How do we determine this? An equivalent list of 2d printers would be
significantly longer.

~~~
yxhuvud
The market for 2d printers are also several magnitudes bigger, presently.

------
proee
I believe Dremel is just rebranding the "Flashforge Dreamer" which is a
company out of china.

[http://www.flashforge-usa.com/shop/3d-printers/flashforge-
dr...](http://www.flashforge-usa.com/shop/3d-printers/flashforge-dreamer-dual-
extrusion-3d-printer.html/)

I purchase this model a few months ago and it's been alright - though the
extruder seems to get jammed half way into my prints.

It's interesting to see the base price is below the OEM.

~~~
DerekL
You don't say! From the article:

    
    
        The Idea Builder is based on the Flashforge Dreamer,…

------
huuu
I own a 3D printer. It's an Ultimaker (they are coming to the US [1]) and I'm
using it for prototyping.

Some things that you almost never read about consumer 3D printers:

    
    
      * 3D printing is hard.
      * You cannot print 'everything'. Overhang is always an issue.
      * Most prints take hours (as in 'a full day') to print.
      * You cannot print fast and have a good quality print.
      * There are a ton of factors that influence the print quality.
      * Every type / color of filament needs it's own settings based on trial and error.
      * Great 3D print examples are mostly print on +$50.000 printers.
    

I think the Ultimaker and Makerbot are the only brands that deliver good
reliable consumer printers. But I'm also keeping an eye on Formlabs.

[1] [https://www.ultimaker.com/blogs/news/2014/09/16/ultimaker-
la...](https://www.ultimaker.com/blogs/news/2014/09/16/ultimaker-launches-in-
north-america)

~~~
jonhohle
I usually come into these threads to say the same thing. From 2000-2003 I did
IT support for a lab with SLA, FDM, SLS, LOM, and Z-Corp machines (and wrote
some supporting software for many of them).

In addition to your list:

    
    
        * parts often need some type of post processing to
          be viable long term (it depends on the process,
          support removal, sanding/bead blasting, resin
          injection, curing, etc.) this can take many additional
          hours.
        * different machines have different tolerances
    

That said, I'm surprised overhang is an issue. This is a solved problem.
Machines like FDM use a non-binding support material; support is intrinsic to
SLS, Z-Corp, and LOM processes; SLA is the worst since the support material is
the same as the building material. To the best of my memory, in these big
commercial machines support creation was done as part of the slicing process
(or some other solid model preparation) in software before the part was sent
to the machine.

That said, this is the first home 3D printer that I've been excited about, and
the price point is killer.

Also, if they haven't licensed tech from 3D Systems, how long before they are
sued.

~~~
huuu
Well I think overhang is still an issue for single extruder FDM printers (like
the Dremel one). The slicer can generate supports but in my experience this
will cause some of these issues:

    
    
      * Print times will double or triple.
      * Sometimes its really hard to remove the support material.
      * You will need a lot more material.
      * Support structures can break while printing because they are thin.
      * The slicer doesn't create the right support.
    

So most of the time I end up designing support structures myself.

------
seanp2k2
Neat, but I still don't feel that I need one now, or that I'll need one in the
next few years. I guess I haven't really seen what useful things can be made
with 3D printers...almost everything from them I've seen IRL is either a small
statue or jewelry.

~~~
cmsmith
This is invariably the top comment in any thread here about 3D printing. And
yes, if you're not in the habit of making things (whether for fun or
professionally) without a 3D printer, then you probably won't find much use
for one. Most people never interact with unique objects, objects which aren't
produced by the thousands or millions. And those types of mass produced
objects can be made much more easily and well using traditional manufacturing.

I agree that 90% of the 3D printing going on is just for novelty items like
jewelry or statues, which doesn't seem worth it to me. But if the novelty
printers provide enough of a market to ensure the availability of printers for
people who are using them for inventions or scientific instruments, then it's
fine with me.

Things I've printed in the last few months:

* a bracket for installing a PID controller into my homemade sous vide cooker

* brackets for clamping a shaft and pulley into a specific configuration for a tension testing rig

* a tiny clamp for holding ceramic fibers in said test rig

* an adapter for mounting a custom optical filter to a camera

* a prototype of a new strain measuring device

~~~
bcohen5055
I'm a mechanical engineer and I use 3D printing for countless things at work
and occasionally in my own life but unless you are making things at home at
least once a month it doesn't make sense to have your own and I think that is
what the OP is saying. The idea of a "household" 3D printer doesn't appeal to
him because like most consumers they don't want to make things they just want
to buy them.

If you think of the 3D printer more like a tablesaw and less like a microwave
the market shrinks but the use case becomes much more clear.

~~~
Already__Taken
I always though this was especially weird because someone who would get that
amount of use or more out of one probably wants something _really_ awesome and
not something cheap. Maybe even something that could print metal?

I get the super cheap novelty use. After that I thought what you want is a
service to send your design to and get an awesome quality piece back.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _someone who would get that amount of use or more out of one probably wants
> something _really_ awesome and not something cheap._

You're forgetting about what was the primary driving force behind commercial
3D printers, which is hobbyists who don't have money for a full machine shop.
Those are the people who popularized assembling Rep-Raps, and who are now
buying cheap printers to play with them and use for their projects.

If you're a professional with a good idea what you're going to do with the
printer, you definitely should go for something expensive. But if you're just
a Joe Random Hacker, you probably can't afford anything more than the cheap
one (and even if you could, you also need money to buy other parts for
hardware projects).

------
tothepixel
The Dremel site is unfortunately lacking the pricing. They note that it's
available for purchase on Amazon, but it isn't as far as I can tell.

[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-
alias%3Dap...](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Dremel%203D%20Idea%20Builder)

~~~
zaaaaz
$999 according to the article.

~~~
ntkachov
Thats actually pretty reasonable provided the print quality warrants the price
tag. I would buy it for that price if it could print things with enough
structural support for every day use.

~~~
thawkins
Its a flashforge dreamer with one extruder ripped out and the heatbed removed
running autodesk 123 software. Dremel had very little to do with building it
except deciding where the logos will go.

------
vqc
I was extremely high on buying a 3D printer, and then I read this post:
[http://chopmeister.blogspot.com/2014/08/sifting-through-
feat...](http://chopmeister.blogspot.com/2014/08/sifting-through-features-or-
guide-to.html?m=1)

I think I'm going to wait a while before buying.

~~~
jfoutz
I bought a cupcake back when they were kits. It was fun to build. Soldering my
own stepper drivers was kind of cool. They were a great step between nothing
and full DIY. I feel like i could build one from scrounged parts now.

It's not a good printer. belts slip, hard to keep the heat consistent or even
know what a good heat is for a given model. i can futz around with it for a
couple of hours and then get good prints for a while, but any downtime and i
forget all the special little tweaks to get a good print. I probably have
around a 1 to 2 ratio of successful prints to failures.

Fundamentally, the thing that's holding back 3d is the design software.
openscad is great for what it is, but it's not like amazing. Desktop
publishing really take off till mom could print a banner on the old dot
matrix. Something like Broderbund's Print shop pro.

Heck, a clip on my dishwasher broke. it was way easier to just order the part.
I still feel a little guilty about not printing up a replacement, but it would
be dozens of hours for a $10 part.

They are a fun toy, i'd recommend going reprap or something and just figuring
out how to make one. Actually doing useful work with one (even a cheap
commercial one) would require a lot of discipline and willingness to fiddle
with things.

If you just want one to design your own parts, hit up shapeways or one of the
alternatives. send them your dxf get a thing. it's cool.

Regardless, diy or outsource, I'll bet you a nickle the design software is
what holds you back. Blender is awesome, but not easy. openSCAD is awesome but
not easy. etc...

~~~
D_Alex
> it would be dozens of hours for a $10 part.

Yes, but then you upload the design to Thingiverse or similar, and it becomes
30 minutes (plus printing time) for the rest of the world.

And 30 mins may in itself be unjustifiable to save $10... but ordering the
part online will probably take time too...

------
nickpinkston
Seems like Dremel did the 3DPer first because it's all the hype, but with
desktop CNCs like Shapeoko, OtherMill, NomadCNC, etc. coming out, and Dremel
being ::the:: company of mini-router spindles, they'll probably come out with
desktop CNC mill soon.

~~~
tmuir
$2200 for the Othermill and $2500 for the Nomad for what amount to hobbyist
machines seems way too high, especially for being unable to cut steel, and
having such limited tool sizes. I'd also venture a guess that the speeds for
cutting aluminum are pretty slow, and you're probably taking very thin passes.

For $3900, you can get a proper mill with a retrofit kit, controller and
software:

Mill: [http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-
Stand/G0704](http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704)

Retrofit Kit: [http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Mill-Retrofit-Kit-
Compa...](http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Mill-Retrofit-Kit-Compact-
Series-Microstepper-for-G0704/T25436)

This will cut steel, accepts tools up to 7/8", has a 1HP spindle motor, a much
larger work volume, higher feedrates, etc.

I realize that there are plenty of applications that can be satisfied with
wood and plastic, but making precise metal parts are really the killer app of
CNC Mills.

------
robbrown451
I got my first Dremel tool in 1982 and have always had one since. I love those
things more than I can express.

This is awesome. It may not really have anything to do with their "moto-tool",
but it just warms my heart to see their name on it.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
I replaced mine with a $20 Chinese knockoff when their crappy speed controller
burned out. Good riddance. Don't know why they can't figure out how to design
brushes that don't jam in the housing either.

~~~
robbrown451
The newer models are unfortunately crappier. When I got my first one (when I
was in high school) it was the only option, and high enough quality.

The one I have now is about 15 years old and has gotten a ton of use and
abuse.

------
benjamind
Having played around with 3d printers for the last couple of years I have to
say that they are an indispensable tool for makers/hackers/inventors/artist
types. However for mass market as many here have said we are just not there
yet.

To get there we really need to have a few innovative large manufacturers start
publishing replacement part CAD models for their products. Making that leap is
obviously a big deal for a lot of manufacturers who make outstanding margin on
their replacement parts, but that is the kind of thing we need in order for a
printer to be useful to the truly mass market.

Additionally, and I think we're seeing this already, we need a lot more 3d
printable products to come to market. For example, I just recently finished
printing a Clug bike rack for a friend
([https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/834664305/clug-cycle-
st...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/834664305/clug-cycle-storage-
thats-like-a-hug-for-your-bike)). This is a prime example of bringing 3d
printing to the general public - they provide a high quality version you can
buy, or a cheap 3d printable version which you can pay a lot less for just the
3d files. We worked out that with the model cost and the material cost you
could print somewhere in the region of 30 replacements before it was more
economical to buy the mass produced high quality version. Thus far the rack
hasn't broke yet either!

~~~
soperj
I just use a hook to do the same thing as a clug. It screws into the wall and
you just hang your bike by the wheel.

~~~
benjamind
Totally fair point, the product itself is somewhat....over designed ;-)

------
jameshart
interesting that it's a 3d printer - would have thought a desktop CNC milling
machine would be closer to their traditional high-RPM switchable-toolhead
powertool business.

~~~
Crito
If they offered a sub-$2k CNC machine, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Now that I think about it, I should probably see what I can actually find for
sale...

~~~
reportingsjr
Check out the shapeoko 2. It is about $700-$800 for the full thing. You do
have to assemble it which takes a day or two. Inventables donated one to the
hackerspace I belong to. I've used it a few times and it is pretty nice for
what it is.

~~~
veemjeem
There are lots of good CNCs on amazon for $800 that don't require assembly at
all. If you need to cut into steel, the ones on amazon will be much better
than the shapeoko.

~~~
UnethicalHacks
which ones would you recommend? this appeals far more than 3D printing.

------
Ccecil
Just another clone of a printer that cloned their ideas from reprap. Nothing
to see here except the line where they state they have locked down your
options in software...great idea...eliminate user controls...that should make
it more user friendly.

The only reason to eliminate those features is so that you are locked into
using their consumables (or maybe to avoid some patent issue in the case of
the variable infill).

It is sad that these are the types of printers that get attention. Nothing
special about the design, build area or pretty much anything but it has a
Dremel logo so of course it will sell.

Just another company trying to jump onto the already crowded 3d printing wave.
I am sure there are more to come.

~~~
Ccecil
Apparently my opinion is not a popular one :) That is fine. I have been a very
active member of the reprap community for 3.5 years and have watched printers
come at a rate of about 1-2 per week for the last 2 years...every one has new
hype but they are all the same thing. Same linear motion, same lack of heated
bed, same everything. Even the stated resolution tends to be the same...always
based on theoretical stepper placement and rarely takes actual xy resolution
due to nozzle size into account.

I think it is great people want to bring printing to the masses but locking
the user out of temperature, infill, and other settings is not a good way to
do it. Sure you eliminate their choices thereby eliminating user error...but
in my case I would only be able to print about 75% of the things I do without
being able to control the variables currently available in the
slicers/firmware. There are many times even mid print where I vary the
temperature, extrusion steps/mm and accel.

I guess it must be too much to ask that there be some actual
innovation...instead of just offering the same printer that many others are
selling with locked down controls (and I am assuming closed source firmware).

Smoothieware is becoming more popular and that is ARM based and has been
around for over 2 years. The fact this printer has an ARM based electronics
platform is not as "new" as it may seem...but of course it is much better than
the atmega stuff.

------
CamperBob2
Seems like Dremel would be better positioned to offer a mass-market small CNC
machine. They have no background or corporate strengths in the additive-
manufacturing business.

~~~
braum
but there were no CNC prototypes in the makerspace they could license and slap
their name on and put in a box... 3D printers though... overpriced and will be
on clearance rack in 5-6 months where we can get them for a few hundred which
will be a great deal.

~~~
hugs
ShapeOko is a low-cost open source hardware CNC machine. The license (CC BY-
SA) is quite liberal and business friendly.

[http://www.shapeoko.com/](http://www.shapeoko.com/)
[https://github.com/shapeoko/Shapeoko_2](https://github.com/shapeoko/Shapeoko_2)

~~~
braum
I know and I just finished putting my Shapeoko together. It's not something
you can package and resell like they did with the Dremel 3d printer. Even
after I put all the parts together and verified the wiring, the configuration
and setup on Shapeoko took hours. Not something most people who are new to all
of this would probably be happy about. My build was helped by already having a
few printrbot simples and a commercial CNC machine in my wood shop.

------
coldcode
What limitations on materials does this have? They mention a lack of heating
but I don't know enough about 3d printers to know what that means it doesn't
support.

~~~
IshKebab
It means it doesn't support ABS.

~~~
ja27
ABS is a sturdier plastic that's more resistant to heat, light, water, etc.
The Dremel can only do PLA. The major difference when printing is that ABS
shrinks when it cools so you need to keep the base of the print hot to keep it
from popping off of the print bed. So ABS is a little more work but is a
sturdier plastic.

------
gmu3
I've played around with both, and the extruder printers are generally vastly
inferior to the printers that use lasers.

~~~
reportingsjr
Laser based 3d printers (largely Selective laser sintering and
stereolithography) also tend to be far, far more expensive than FDM (extruder
based) machines. There are some pretty good FDMs that are approaching the
point where you can't see or feel the individual layers in the print.

~~~
veemjeem
Can one even buy a consumer SLS printer? I was under the impression that the
cheapest SLS printer is still around 50k.

~~~
reportingsjr
I have seen a little bit of work in the area of people using laser engravers
(you can get one for about $2k out of china) as minimal SLS machines. Other
than that I don't think there is any SLS printer in the hobbyist arena.

~~~
gmu3
This SLA printer is actually pretty good for ~$2k
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fsl/pegasus-touch-
laser...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fsl/pegasus-touch-laser-
sla-3d-printer-low-cost-high-q)

------
spiritplumber
I wonder if they'd be interested in my laser cutter attachment.
[http://robots-
everywhere.com/re_wiki/index.php?n=Main.LCheap...](http://robots-
everywhere.com/re_wiki/index.php?n=Main.LCheapo)

------
dmritard96
1K, I think there are plenty of others out there with more intriguing designs.
Whats interesting is the distribution channel though. The article mentions
Home Depot...so does that mean it will be next to makerbot products?

~~~
zaaaaz
From what I've read, the Home Depot/Makerbot program is only in 12 of their
stores.

------
choult
Great to see backing from more established manufacturers for home 3D printing.

However, am I the only person who thinks the first photo looks like they're
microwaving a mouse?

~~~
CapitalistCartr
They're microwaving a frog. Who eats mice, anyway? Ewww. Now frogs, there's
some good eatin'.

------
Corrado
It would be cool if Home Depot had a 3D printer in their stores. That way you
could upload your design and run by and pick it up 4 hours later.

~~~
bronson
Kinko's also seems like an ideal place. They're 2-D printing your uploaded
designs already.

------
yitchelle
One serious question. How many have bought a 3D printer, played with it for a
bit, and then it stayed gathering dust in the corner of the room?

------
bane
The key now for any Mass-Market printer manufacturer is to "go apple". Support
a proprietary format so you can only print those out on their printer, and
have a "store" full of stuff you can download and print off. Populate the
store with unbelievably professionally modeled thingamabobs to kick it off.
Let people put up their own models, and even set price points to download the
model, but don't charge for each copy.

------
higherpurpose
> Dremel Releases a Mass-Market 3D Printer

> and a $999 price point

No. A 3D printer that's over $500 won't be mass market. Even $500 is probably
too high. Most people might buy one if it's only $300 (with good enough
quality - which could happen years from now). My guess is it will be another
decade before normal families consider a cheap 3D printer, and only then it's
when 3D printers will be "mass-market".

~~~
frederickf
And it's not just the cost. Printing things has to be as easy as printing text
which can still be annoying. Maybe someday there will be a sequel to Office
Space in which they destroy a 3d-printer with the futuristic equivalent of
baseball bats.

~~~
Ccecil
[https://flic.kr/p/dUExnL](https://flic.kr/p/dUExnL)

------
JustinFreid
To think of all that Dremel's destroyed, now, it can create.

------
dominotw
Have we moved beyond selling $4 trinkets on esty with these things?

