

Cheap razor made after P&G watches Indians shave - iamwil
http://news.yahoo.com/cheap-razor-made-p-g-watches-indians-shave-164550714--finance.html

======
mistercow
>but instead of making the costly trip abroad, they had Indian students at
nearby Massachusetts Institute of Technology test the razor.

This is one of the hard things about being a tiny startup like P&G with very
little capital to spare: you sometimes have to cut costs on little things that
turn out to be more important than you thought. A few thousand dollars to fly
your employees to India might not seem like much, but when you've only got
$140B in assets, you have to make some tough calls, and you can't be right
100% of the time.

~~~
bane
Yes, because the cheap disposable Indian razor department gets to call on all
$140B in assets in a Pyrrhic quest to crack the 12 cent foreign razor market.

~~~
mistercow
Obviously not. The point is that they weren't strapped for cash. It may not be
a hugely profitable market, but if it's so unprofitable that they couldn't
afford to send one guy over to India to actually talk to some Indian men about
shaving, then the market isn't worth investing in in the first place.

I mean seriously, they _brought a product to market_ and didn't fly over to
India until _after_ the product flopped? And now that they have, they're
talking about basic run-of-the-mill user testing like it's this brand new
concept that they're just now discovering.

How are these people still in business?

~~~
vinceguidry
You underestimate just how much volume there is in consumer goods and what
this does to the players in that space. Margins are small, but cash piles are
utterly ginormous. I don't care to do any research, but I wouldn't be
surprised if P&G alone could buy out Silicon Valley minus Apple. They're HUGE.

Also, once you break into a market, it become's a perpetual money machine. P&G
could do six such flops and still come out on top, eventually, when they
finally break in.

~~~
mistercow
But the cost of a flop in that case is the time they could have been selling a
successful product. No matter how you slice it, the cost of a trip to India is
going to be insignificant compared to the benefits of getting the product
right the first time.

~~~
vinceguidry
I was more responding to your question "how are these people still in
business" than questioning your logic. Obviously it would have been better for
them to test their market. But the flop itself is pretty insignificant, pocket
change to a company like P&G.

~~~
mistercow
Oh, I see. Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that this in particular should drive them
out of business. I was wondering how the kind of person who thought "flying to
India to research a product for India" was trimmable fat would be able to
successfully keep a company afloat.

------
avtar
Everyone's shaving needs are different -- mine require me to spend a
considerable amount of time and effort to make sure I don't end up with cuts
or ingrown hairs. I used disposable razors for the longest time until I found
a thread on a wet shaving forum[0] where someone had shared a quick tutorial
video[1] on how to shave with a double edge razor. After committing to wet
shaving I now get the closest shaves possible which require me to shave less
often.

What I really like about this method of shaving is that it made me view this
activity differently. It's no longer a chore and it isn't something that I
mindlessly rush through. The shaving brush, razor, blades, and cream are my
tools; I don't just toss them into garbage (the blades being the exception)
once I've had a few shaves. I prepare everything and commit to being present
while I shave. It's a ritual now and as lame as it might sound my life is
richer as a result. I wish someone had taught me to shave this way when I
first started.

[0]
[http://badgerandblade.com/vb/forum.php](http://badgerandblade.com/vb/forum.php)

[1]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qSIP6uQ3EI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qSIP6uQ3EI)

~~~
npsimons
I'd have to concur, and can strongly recommend, if anyone has the interest to
go even farther, try straight razor shaving. You might want to get a straight
razor shave by a professional first (there's an Art of Shaving in Vegas that
will do it), then consider learning to do it yourself. At that point, you're
no longer throwing anything away! But of course it takes a bit more time,
focus, and attention to detail, plus you have to keep the razor sharp (which
can be another ritual in and of itself).

------
DanBC
This article has some interesting insights about the process of developing a
product, and the problems of working in a lab away from the people who are
going to use the product.

But I can't help feeling disappointed that we have yet another disposable
thing, instead of a better handle for double blades.

> The takeaway: In the U.S., razor makers spent decades on marketing centered
> on a close shave, adding blade after blade to achieve a smoother cheek.

Haha! My bathroom looks like something from a Tarantino movie after I finish
shaving. Blood everywhere. Honestly, I'm surprised I still have both ears.
Some days I just stop half way through if I haven't cut myself, quit while I'm
ahead. And they keep adding blades - you might as well just give me a
cheesegrater and get it over with. At the moment I'm using a double blade and
Merkur handle, and I really really like it. Initial investment, but much
cheaper over time. The ritual of shaving is nice.

~~~
brspangler
> But I can't help feeling disappointed that we have yet another disposable
> thing, instead of a better handle for double blades.

I noticed that in the article, it talks about the price of the handle and the
price of the blades[0]. I looked it up and it's not a disposable razor, it's a
replaceable cartridge head[1]. Which isn't as bad from my perspective. Same
source for [1] also says that the razor's made in India[2], so it's going to
have a much shorter maker-to-market chain.

[0] - [http://news.yahoo.com/cheap-razor-made-p-g-watches-
indians-s...](http://news.yahoo.com/cheap-razor-made-p-g-watches-indians-
shave-164550714--finance.html) "Gillette sells the Guard for 15 rupees, or 34
cents, and each razor blade is 5 rupees, or 12 cents"

[1] - [http://www.westcoastshaving.com/Gillette-Guard-Cartridge-
Raz...](http://www.westcoastshaving.com/Gillette-Guard-Cartridge-
Razor_p_1136.html) "Description Newly released Gillette Guard Cartridge Razor
with pivoting head."

[2] - [http://www.westcoastshaving.com/Gillette-Guard-Cartridge-
Raz...](http://www.westcoastshaving.com/Gillette-Guard-Cartridge-
Razor_p_1136.html) "Made in India."

~~~
DanBC
Ah, excellent. Thank you for the correction. You're right, it is much better.

------
jblow
This is a contemptible article. It seems mostly to be a product of PR, and for
an American audience it seems intended to perpetuate the cognitive capture
regarding razors being things that a lot of thought goes into and that
therefore justify high prices.

Do the math for how much a razor "should" cost, and ask why you can't buy one
for remotely that much at your local Walgreens. Ask why stuff like Dollar
Shave Club exists, and then look at _their_ prices and figure out what their
margins are.

~~~
kemayo
The bit which really tripped my PR filter was:

> To do that, P&G executives would have to attract the nearly 500 million
> Indians who use double-edged razors, an old fashioned T-shaped razor that
> has no protective piece of plastic that goes between the blade and the skin
> when shaving.

...such razors are generally called "safety razors", and unless there's a
radically different design in use in India, they're pretty hard to cut
yourself with.

But a resurgence in their popularity would be pretty terrible for Gillette,
given how much cheaper their blades are, so their PR can't say anything
positive about them.

~~~
Espressosaurus
I used a cartridge razor before I switched to safety razors for cost reasons--
and you're wrong.

It's much easier to cut yourself with a safety razor than with a cartridge
razor. All it takes is being tired and in a hurry, or being clumsy when
replacing the blade.

I've found the benefits (closer shave, cheap enough to replace regularly)
worth the costs in time and (occasional) blood. But don't pretend that they're
as idiot-proof as the cartridge razors, because unfortunately, they're not.

All that said--yeah, this was pretty transparently a PR piece with the moral
of the story being "watch how people do what they do to make products that
will appeal to them."

Um, duh?

~~~
kemayo
I also switched to a safety razor a few years back, and I didn't notice any
change in the likelihood of cutting myself. It's possible that I have
particularly resilient skin or steady hands, or something, but our dueling
anecdotes seem to cancel out.

~~~
pandler
I've been using safety razors for a while now, and my personal experience has
been that it depends on two things: the geometry of the razor (the tool, not
the blade), and the brand of double-edged blade. I have used blades and razors
where I can wantonly hack away at my face without fear of harm, and I have
used combinations that require the utmost concentration if I want to make it
out of the bathroom alive. If I had to guess, I would think that you two just
have very different setups.

------
singlecomment17
LOL. Rings true.

"Indian men have thicker hair and a higher hair density than their American
counterparts. Adding to that, they often shave less frequently than American
men, so they wind up shaving longer beards." .. "

"... observed men using a cup of water to shave. All the MIT students had
running water. Without that, the razor stayed clogged."

I live in a first world country now, and still use a bowl of water when
shaving: it's the environmentally kind thing to do. People who keep the water
running all the time while they brush their teeth or shave drive me nuts.
Ditto people who pull out three to four paper napkins from public restrooms
after washing their hands. Take them one by one: one or two is probably
enough.

End rant.

And on topic, I've found that the quality of the blade makes a huge
difference. I think they intentionally put bad blades in the cheap razors. I
wonder how good the blade on this one is.

~~~
r0h1n
> I think they intentionally put bad blades in the cheap razors.

Oh I think the likes of Gillette do far more devious things when it comes to
the life of razors. For instance, I can almost swear that the blades on my
Fusion razor _seem to_ wear out much faster than the blades on my Mach 3,
Sensor, Presto etc. (I've been nearly a lifelong Gillette razor user)

I _think_ what Gillette does is to ensure that the lubricating strip wears out
faster, thus causing discomfort while shaving and making one feel as though
the razor itself has worn out.

[http://gliddofglood.typepad.com/the_glidd_of_glood_blog/2012...](http://gliddofglood.typepad.com/the_glidd_of_glood_blog/2012/10/the-
gillette-razor-blade-mystery-a-tale-of-skullduggery.html)

~~~
maxerickson
Has your water changed (perhaps you moved around)? Deposits make the edge
rough, some water will make more of them.

It is also somewhat more difficult to get a good lather with harder water.

~~~
r0h1n
It has, because I'm referring to nearly 20 years worth of shaving across
multiple cities and localities. So yes, it could be a reason.

------
testdrive5
I don't see why HN people are so dismissive about this just because it costs
less. I'm from a middle class family (considering my pa's income) but I make
well more than $2000 a month (which is considered very good here). And I live
in a posh area as well. Think about an equivalent of something like the heart
of New York. That's where I live in.

Now that we have my financial background clear, to avoid ad hominem attacks, I
would easily vouch for this razor. Not only it's really smooth to shave (very
good ergonomics), it also lasts longer. Believe me, I have used a single blade
for about 6 months (max), with no deterioration and any sort of skin
irritations/side effects, on the condition that I take care of preserving my
blades by placing them into the air tight bottles to avoid rusting.

However, my average with a single blade of this razor is usually 3 months.
It's also really cheap. You can get 5 blades for an equivalent of $1.5 bucks
USD (80 Indian rupees). The razor itself is cheap too. So, it's a good product
that get's the job done for most of us. It's much better than what my father
has - A three blade motorized, vibration enabled Gillete razor whose blades
alone would set you back for $10 minimum for a set of 3 or 5.

I hate it when people automatically go into this "if it's cheap in price, it's
cheap in quality" mode without giving the product a fair chance.

Just to be clear, my other HN account has 2000+ karma and I'm not a
troll/marketer for this product. I'm a genuine customer who just would like to
share my experience with it.

------
dingaling
> ... until they traveled to India and observed men using a cup of water to
> shave. All the MIT students had running water.

Interesting. My brief sojourn as a representative of Her Majesty's Government
also taught me to shave from a bowl of water, simply because running water was
an inefficient use of resources. It did require agitating the razor quite
abruptly to clean it, and shaving was a little more jarring than when using
warm water, but it worked.

And the bowl could be tipped-out after shaving to be filled with tasty
porridge for brekkies. :)

P&G should promote this design to various militaries around the World. The
use-case seems to match perfectly ( right down to the lack of a proper mirror
).

~~~
StavrosK
Wouldn't it be worth putting a brush (or felt) at the bottom of the bowl, so
you could brush the razor in the direction of the blades (the opposite way of
shaving) to clean it much faster? That way, the fabric pushes the hairs out,
instead of having to rely on the force of the water from the agitation.

------
meepmorp
As an alternative solution to the problem, try growing a long, luxurious, and
sexy beard. No unnecessary waste from shaving products, no razor burn, and
less time dicking around in the mornings. When it gets too long, take 5
minutes and trim it back.

~~~
option_greek
And get suspicious looks from strangers :) ? I used to shave once every 3
weeks but these days I try to do it at least weekly.

~~~
PeterisP
You have to take good care of a beard anyway - it's not so frequent as
shaving, but it still must be done to look appropriate.

------
paddy_m
A side note on shaving. I love [http://dorcousa.com/](http://dorcousa.com/)
razors. They are a white label razor straight from China. Dollar shave club
for men definitely uses them, so do a lot of store brands. The 6 blade razor
straight from Dorco comes in at $5.75 a 4 pack, the same thing from dollar
shave club? $9.

------
Aloha
I think this is a really neat (small) study of how a product makes it to
market. Truth is, I would probably buy this razor if I could, I dont need a 97
blade extravaganza I just want something to scrape the extra hair off my face.

As far as using Indian students from MIT - thats a neat way of trying to lower
development costs, while still targeting the specific needs to the ethnic
group targeted. It didn't work perfectly, because it couldnt test for local
use cases, but its still a neat start.

~~~
KC8ZKF
Buy a safety razor.

[http://www.amazon.com/Astra-Superior-Premium-Platinum-
Double...](http://www.amazon.com/Astra-Superior-Premium-Platinum-
Double/dp/B001QY8QXM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380991648&sr=8-1&keywords=safety+razor+blades)

~~~
Aloha
Yeah, the product discussed in the article is safer than a safety razor - that
was part of the point.

~~~
Moto7451
Cartridge razors are safer only when installing the blades. The cutting
surfaces of single blade cartridge razors and DE razors are largely the same.
Single edge and injector razor designs were answers to the same problem.

More importantly to Gillette, however, is that they control the patents on
each new cartridge design they come up with. The patents on DE razors are long
expired. As such you must use OEM or licensed blades in your Gillette Fusion
but I can use any blade in my Gillette Super Speed.

------
madlynormal
DE Blades are the way to go.
[http://www.maggardrazors.com/index.php/product/budget-
starte...](http://www.maggardrazors.com/index.php/product/budget-starter-kit/)

~~~
brspangler
I prefer straight razors. They're a lot of work, but not generating a material
waste stream is totally worth it for me.

------
jckt
> They spent 3,000 hours with more than 1,000 consumers at their homes, in
> stores and in small group discussions. They observed people's routines
> throughout the day, sometimes staying late into the evening.

Is this really necessary?

