
Fitbit Charge, Charge HR and Surge - valanto
http://blog.fitbit.com/fibit-charge-charge-hr-surge-welcome-to-a-whole-new-world-of-fitness/
======
MBCook
So they're announcing new products again.

Tell me when they update their app for the new iPhone. Tell me when they
decide that when there's a bug that makes the calorie tracking almost useless
for existing users they won't just fix it for new people and pretend it didn't
happen, instead actually telling users who were affected and lost months and
months of data.

Tell me when they decide to integrate into HealthKit.

Or maybe just fixing a bunch of the weird little UI things that have been
wrong with the app since the iOS 7 version launch.

When FitBit pretends to care about their software they might be worth
considering again. Right now they're behaving like just another hardware
manufacturer who only makes half-assed attempts at software.

~~~
obviouslygreen
This is why I skipped the high priced crap and went straight to a pedometer.
It's not perfect, but it is engineered to serve its purpose and does so in a
predictable way.

What is this high-price-point, high-maintenance appliance worth if it's broken
for significant portions of its audience and requires constant updates that
don't actually happen to run or keep running?

I have friends who use and love these. Frankly, for the headaches they deal
with, my ~20USD pedometer sits in my pocket and reliably estimates both my
distance traveled and calories burned. No fuss, no muss, no upgrades, no OS
issues. It does one thing and does it pretty well; I'd rather have that than
have an appliance that attempts to do a lot of things and manages it rather
poorly.

~~~
CJefferson
I have a fitbit zip, their cheapest model, which I leave clipped to my
keyring.All it does (that I care about) is step counting, which syncs via
bluetooth.

About 3 months ago it broke (after many ears of success) and after looking
around at all the alternatives I bought... another fitbit zip. I just hope
they don't decide to stop making it.

~~~
MBCook
I have a One and the only thing I use it for is step tracking. It works great.

Their software ecosystem is becoming a disaster.

------
unicornporn
This might be the time to ask: Does anybody know of an activity tracker (like
the Pebble or FitBit devices) that doesn't need to upload data to a distant
server in order to analyze and give me insights? I want a piece of software
for OS X or Windows that can sync with the device and help me interpret the
data. I want to store the data myself and I don't want to be dependent on an
internet connection.

Is there such a device? Or, should I just accept has the data collection
economy has penetrated all aspects of our lives?

~~~
bryanlarsen
Misfit on Pebble doesn't upload on Android, that feature is currently
disabled. It provides one week graphs of sleep and activity right on the watch
itself.

~~~
mikestew
I think they've since fixed this on iOS, at least for synching to the phone
app (which was temporarily disabled as well on iOS). It looks like it now
syncs as soon as the app is fired up. However, I'm not sure that the Pebble
app even requires the Misfit mobile app. So you could just run the Pebble app,
and remember to look at the stats on the watch at least once a week.

------
IgorPartola
So having used a Polar heart rate monitor (the kind with the chest strap), I
am used to the heart rate to be very accurately measured. The downside to the
Polar HRM is that I can't wear it 24/7\. It'd be nice to see my HR all day
long, but the strap is not comfortable for anything but actual workouts. The
improved version of my HRM includes Bluetooth to connect to my phone, a GPS
unit, and a large display that shows me where I'm going. It also includes
things like connectivity to a cycle computer on an exercise bike, etc. All of
this is still workout-only, but doesn't help with day to day stuff.

Now, the Charge HR and Surge promise the same thing without the chest strap.
This sounds really appealing, and it's at a price point that's very
competitive with the Polar and Garmin products. However, I doubt that it's
that accurate. The reason is that I am sure that if the technology existed to
get rid of the strap, by now Polar and Garmin would have been all over it.
Remember, these companies are targeting people that are very serious about
getting info about their workouts only. If they could deliver the same level
of accuracy without the annoying chest strap, or even with the chest strap
that you didn't have to use with electrode gel, they would.

What I suspect will happen is the same thing as happened with the previous
iterations: you will get moderately accurate heart rate at rest, but when you
start running, swimming, playing basketball, etc., the FitBit will not get a
reading.

I'd love to be proven wrong. The moment I see serious fitness nerds jumping
from Polar to FitBit, I'll join them. Until then, I remain skeptical.

~~~
Osmium
> However, I doubt that it's that accurate.

How accurate is accurate? As someone who works out casually, I'd be happy with
something that gave even ± 10 bpm, because that'd be far more information than
I currently have.

If, however, as another poster speculated it's more of the case that it only
works intermittently, then that's a deal breaker.

~~~
IgorPartola
I think it'd be intermittent. The problem is that you move around too much
when you work out. An simple electrical sensor needs constant contact with
your skin to read your HR. If it comes loose, it won't give you a wrong
reading, it'll give you no reading. This is the current state of the art.

The optical HRM thing they are saying they have is likely to have the same
problem. I doubt it'd give you bad data, just no data.

~~~
Osmium
Do you think that'd be the case even if you tighten the strap significantly
for a workout?

~~~
IgorPartola
Yes. It's not just good contact. It's about good electrical contact. For
example, if the strap is dry, even if it's directly on the skin, it won't pick
up a signal.

I suspect that this optical LED-based HRM tech is going to have its own
problems. For example, if it has to sit close to a vein, and you move it
slightly. Or if it has to be relatively tight on the wrist. Or if the LED's
get dirty because of sweat.

~~~
Osmium
Thanks for the feedback--that's interesting. I'd assumed these were all LED
based. If it is electrical contact related, could you not use a gel like
another commenter mentioned using with a chest strap?

It seems like a gimmick, but I've had good results with one of the iPhone apps
where you place your finger over the camera and it's illuminated by the flash.
You have to keep the finger in a constant position, but it works reliably if
you do. So I have hope for new technology.

Completely different area, but there's this technology:

[http://people.csail.mit.edu/mrub/vidmag/](http://people.csail.mit.edu/mrub/vidmag/)

which seems surprisingly robust. If you can get heart rate from standard
video, I wouldn't be surprised to find it's possible to get a reliable signal
with a LED and light sensor placed directly against the skin–especially if
it's done in addition to an electrical signal.

Either way, we'll find out soon enough. The Apple watch claims to give heart
rate too, and they're going to get absolutely slammed in the media if they
don't live up to it. Will be interesting to see!

------
jbrooksuk
I purchased a Fitbit Flex over a year ago and at the time I was really happy
that I chose it over competitors.

However, since I learnt recently that they're not going to be integrating with
the Health app, I've got absolutely zero interest in continuing to use the
device as the iPhone app is terrible and I've been using Health.app a lot
recently tracking flight count, steps etc.

The iPhone app is really broken. It doesn't work on the iPhone 6, doesn't
count calories correctly and refuses to connect to the Flex for the first
couple of attempts.

Silly Fitbit, I thought you were a cool company.

~~~
mahyarm
I wonder how broken their engineering org is if they cannot even let their 1+
iOS engineers implement it properly o_O.

~~~
IgorPartola
I think not integrating with HealthKit is a strategy decision, not an issue of
resources.

~~~
MBCook
Right. I'm pretty sure they want to _BE_ HealthKit, not part of Apple's thing.
They've offered integration for a few years.

PS: Who remembers OpenFeint on iOS? Yeah.

------
ctz
Every product link in this announcement being a 404 is the quality I've come
to expect from Fitbit.

(Now on my fourth Flex in just under a year, with the first three dying in
precisely the same way. Fitbit replaced them all under warranty, so I can't
fault them there. But I'd prefer if they lasted more than a few months.)

~~~
johngd
Is it common to use bit.ly links when linking to your products off your own
press release? I understand that bit.ly offers link analytics but I can't
imagine they offer something that you couldn't do in house that offsets the
loss of branding by not advertising with your own domain.

~~~
ignostic
It is common on third-party sites, but not on the same domain. It's often just
PR and marketing people who don't know they have better options for tracking.
Some do know better, but can't get access to the data they need (for various
bad reasons).

------
Poiesis
Going to have to pile on here. The Flex seemed like it was going to be cool,
but then the software was buggy for the longest time--wouldn't sync, silent
alarms wouldn't work, etc. These are largely fixed but now they won't add
HealthKit support. Seems stupid since the software isn't their strong point.
But whatever, despite the lock-in attempts I'm not sticking with their stuff.
Really like the Flex form factor but can't stand the platform at this point.

------
suprgeek
So pricing wise Fitbit Charge-$130, Fitbit Charge HR-$150 and Fitbit
Surge-$250.

Why even have the entry level Charge? For 20 bucks more I get (allegedly)
accurate Wrist based Heart Rate Monitoring, so why would I not spring for the
Charge HR over the Charge?

The top end model is a whole $100 more expensive and going into Moto 360
pricing - too expensive IMO.

Better structure:

Charge $99

Charge HR $149

Surge $199

The fact that all of these get 5 days or more of battery life is the key for
me. I do not want another thing in my schedule that I need to top up daily -
no way.

~~~
davidedicillo
That's the definition of price anchoring... That makes look like the $150
device is a bargain, because for ONLY $20 more you get the HRM, distracting
from the more objective consideration of the price of the item.

~~~
joshschreuder
How does price anchoring work with physical products though?

They still have to manufacture the product at the lower price point because
_someone_ will buy it, do they just manufacture less stock for the lower price
point (and higher for the other two) and hope the demand doesn't exceed the
stock levels?

------
pdx
I anxiously read the specs of the new products, sure that they would have seen
the error of their ways when they went from waterproof with the 'flex', to
non-waterproof with the 'force'. But nope, they're still wasting my time.

Apparently the 'flex' was the anomaly, and non-waterproof jewelry that can't
be showered with, swam with, or wash the dishes with, is what they actually
think is a good fitness product.

------
gadders
"Records multi-sport activities like running, cross-training and strength
workouts; see comprehensive summaries with tailored metrics, workout intensity
and calories burned"

I wonder how it records strength workouts? It would be good to see strength
training get the same benefits from these devices as cardio-based training
does.

------
swamp40
Since Fitbit has an API, what is stopping developers from making a Fitbit-to-
HealthKit data transfer app?

------
click170
I like my Fitbit, but I'm having a hard time liking the company.

Thing is, they're providing a service, and they're only charging for a
product. I don't think this is sustainable and it makes me feel very uneasy
about the safety of my data.

The cherry on the cake is that they already put their Data Export feature
behind a paywall (though last I checked they allow you to retrieve a small
subset of your data once for free). I concede that storing that data costs
money, but they do not provide an option for me to use my own servers for
that. This leaves me feeling like they're holding my data hostage, and I don't
like that.

I'm looking at ways of intercepting that traffic and setting up my own server,
and am interested in any similar or related projects.

------
kolev
Fitbit syncing on Android is constantly broken. Don't have this issue with
other BLE devices.

Anyway, I have a bunch of wearables collecting dust (Basis, Amiigo, Alpha).
They need to be worn tight to have a precise HR measuring and this always
causes dermatological problems. I stopped wearing them as although I don't
have allergies and always clean the band with alcohol and shower daily, yet, I
still get redness, and it slowly damages your skin. If I loosen this a bit,
then HR monitor stops working. I was wearing this fanatically 24x7, but even
alternating arms every day didn't show improvement, so, I quit using any. They
might be great devices, but the bands are poorly made, and non-breathable.

~~~
mahyarm
I would just give up on the continuous HR monitoring. I'm not sure of the
actual value after having a basis watch for over a year now.

Basis is far worse than fitbit. No API still, and their bluetooth syncing has
always been unreliable. I find I don't look at the data because it's locked
into their platform, and I don't like how they organize the data in their own
app. I want to get a new watch tracker soon, but so much new stuff is coming
out now, I'm in a wait and see mode.

Just go for automatic sleep tracking and movement tracking. You wont have your
phone with you all the time, so a wrist tracker is ideal.

~~~
mikestew
> I would just give up on the continuous HR monitoring. I'm not sure of the
> actual value after having a basis watch for over a year now.

It strikes me as a "because we can" feature. Frankly, step counters almost
fall into that category: "what can we do with solid-state accelerometers and
gyros now that they're $2 in lots of 10K?" But beyond counting steps, not a
lot has been done. (The exception were the Nike+ shoes, but I can't even find
them on the Nike site anymore. Pity, too, as they were actually pretty cool.)

I fail to see the value of _continuous_ HR monitoring. For starters, as others
have pointed out, it's a PITA to get it working and keep working. I'm a
scrawny guy with single-digit body fat % (I assume that the monitor has less
to have to look through), and I still have to clamp a Samsung Gear Fit to my
wrist to get it to work consistently. Second, what does it tell you? Your
resting HR? You can do that without having to turn your hand blue from lack of
blood flow. HR during exercise? Doesn't work that well, if at all, and is a HR
strap that much of a burden? That your HR rises when you get pissed off in
that meeting with your boss? Duh.

Maybe it's a useful metric, but I haven't seen any information on how it's
useful...other than "because we can".

------
kyro
I would be hesitant to purchase another Fitbit device. As someone who was a
hugely loyal fan of theirs, they've repeatedly dropped the ball.

I've had to replace multiple devices for loss of functionality, poor quality
of the Flex band, and wrist rashes. To their credit, they've been more than
responsive and replaced my products no questions asked, but it's all left me
with a sour taste. Their simplistic app, confusing calorie tracking and
refusal to integrate HealthKit doesn't help.

Fitbit was on top a few years back when the wearables game was still young, so
a slip up here and there was acceptable, but now there are a ton of
competitors with great products, so research your options.

------
Brian-Puccio
I posted a comment on their blog a few hours ago echoing some of the
sentiments here (less bugs, free the data, etc.).

It was deleted, it looks like they only want a cheerleading section in their
comments.

~~~
Istof
unfortunately, many (if not most) companies do this ... this happened to me a
few weeks ago on Dropcam's website as an example (it was a post about it's
inability to stream the camera's video feed locally)

------
borgchick
When I first investigated these personal fitness monitors, Fitbit was a
standout (I have the Flex). It made the Jawbone look old and clumbsy. The
automatic syncing was really nice. Then, my Indiegogo funded Misfit Shine
came, and initially it was still behind Fitbit in terms of the app, and sleep
tracking.

Then, Misfit kept updating their firmware and app, so month after month, it
got better. Although not as detailed as Fitbit, when they added automatic
sleep tracking, the war was over, and Misfit shine had won.

Why in the world do you tell Fitbit that you are a) going to sleep, and then
b) you are now getting up?

Also, initially I thought the prospect of a USB charged device great. But
then, I realized the drawbacks.

With my Shine, I can replace the standard 2032 battery every three months. So
I replace it, and forget it. With Fitbit, I'd have to take it off every 4 days
or so (depending on usage). The "lasts a week" thing is a lie. And if I was
travelling, I'd have to think if I need to take the USB charger or not. With
the Shine, no worries, unless I am going somewhere for more than 3 months!

Another thing that really sucks about the Fitbit are the bands. Yeh you got
lots of colours, but they break! And then you'll have to spend $30 for 3
bands. Whether you like all three colours or not, you'll have to buy 3 at a
time. I guess you'll use them all, because they all will eventually break.

The wrist band Shine comes with isn't super either. It is a cheap rubber band,
but it didn't break. I bought a nice leather one about a year after because I
wanted to, not because the original one broke.

I have the Aria too, that product I still like, and I still use the Fitbit app
just for that. I wish that could integrate with Healthkit.

I think the only thing Fitbit is still ahead of the Shine is with the online
app. But in terms of functionality and long term durability, the Shine for me,
is a clear winner.

~~~
MBCook
> Why in the world do you tell Fitbit that you are a) going to sleep, and then
> b) you are now getting up?

It made more sense on the FitBit One, the previous device. It had to go in a
special arm band at night to do that feature.

At this point I _hate_ this feature because I accidentally press the button on
my One and it decides that means I sleep-walked for 6 hours in the middle of
the day. There is no way to turn the tracking off totally, I just have to
watch and remove the errant data when I accidentally trigger it.

> With my Shine, I can replace the standard 2032 battery every three months.
> So I replace it, and forget it. With Fitbit, I'd have to take it off every 4
> days or so (depending on usage). The "lasts a week" thing is a lie.

My FitBit One lasts a week, but it's a bigger device and could hold more
battery. The 'children's FitBit' (the Zip?) also does the 2032 battery thing
and lasts months.

> I have the Aria too, that product I still like, and I still use the Fitbit
> app just for that. I wish that could integrate with Healthkit.

Sort of possible. FitBit -> My Fitness Pal -> HealthKit.

------
therobot24
I loved my Fitbit Force (no app problems that i noticed on android), however
it literally fell apart in 6 months, as in the rubber completely disconnected
and i was left with 3 pieces of what was my fitbit.

I'm debating on getting a Charge with the recall money from the Force, though
i'm hesitant because i don't believe this one will last me any longer than the
last...

------
BHSPitMonkey
Can anyone from Fitbit attest for how hackable (or not) the Charge might be?
I'd be very interested in picking one up if there's some way for me to push
some custom information from my phone to the display (preferably without
having to generate fake incoming call events).

------
mrtomahawk_5
Am I the only one that noticed that only the Charge lists the feature of it
being water resistant? Does that mean the Charge HR and Surge can take a
splash of water, or that you can't go running in the rain with them? If so
this is a huge drawback.

~~~
pdx
It's not water resistant. It's band is.

From FTA

    
    
        A high-quality, water-resistant, comfortable new 
        textured wristband design with an improved clasp

~~~
MBCook
Water resistant rubber/vinyl. What will the world invent next.

/sarcasm

------
drinchev
Interesting for me, I get 404 for the bit.ly links for the new trackers.

Are they available only for US?

------
davidcelis
I liked my Flex, but when I upgraded to the Force I ended up with skin
irritation that lasted for months. I was worried my wrist would never be the
same again. I'll pass on anything Fitbit related now.

------
dantiberian
> PurePulse uses safe LED lights to detect blood volume changes right on the
> wrist to deliver heart rate monitoring 24/7.

Is there such a thing as an unsafe LED?

~~~
wahsd
Maybe ones that put out UVA and UVB rays? Just a stab in the dark.

------
calferreira
For me the most important thing is accuracy. If the values are estimates, any
smartphone with an exercise tracking app does the same...

~~~
pcurve
I have Galaxy 4s and Fitbit Flex. Their step tracker figures are close,
withing +/\- 2-3%.

I mainly bought it for sleep tracking, but then I realized you had to manually
enter sleep / wake up times for you to see any graphs. I don't know why there
can't be some default value that can be algorithmically adjusted, because most
people tend to go to bed and wake up around the same time.

~~~
mahyarm
Misfit basically does that. I think their pebble app does that too, but I hear
about bugs with data syncing.

~~~
mikestew
The Pebble app/iOS app syncing used to be buggy as hell (retrying a few times
_might_ get it to sync). The updated iOS app seems to sync reliably now.

As for sleep tracking, as far as I can tell you have to push a button at
bedtime. Don't care much about sleep tracking, so I haven't researched to see
that my assessment is correct. Still, not a big deal to me when I do use it.

------
cheath
I really don't want one that has to be a fashion statement.

I wish an upgraded version of the clip (with heart rate monitor) was
available.

~~~
lnanek2
there isn't any way for a clip to measure your heart rate. previously you
needed a strap around your chest with wet contacts. now you need a light
sensor pressed against your wrist. but no one has done it with a clip on your
clothes device

~~~
throwaway1979
I had a nephew who got excited when he saw HR done on watches. We did some
research into accuracy and were surprised to find that the light-based tech
used in many devices does not give you accuracy when you are running or
generally moving fast. No idea about the fitbit devices but I am vary.

