
Ask HN: Would you move to Montana to work on a startup? - client4
Hi.  I co-founded an ISP in Helena, Montana that&#x27;s about to do 1Gbps FTTH and I&#x27;d like to see more tech in the area.  We&#x27;re working with a local economic firm who has a building that it would like to see used for economic development purposes...and an incubator seems like a great fit.<p>So, free Internet and office space in beautiful Montana (which has a low cost of living, BTW).  Is this enough to get you to come visit?
======
olympus
Personally, yes (but I'm not in the market having just moved). Montana is a
beautiful place that has yet to be overran by greedy entrepreneurs seeking to
raise profits by lowering their costs. I kinda wish you weren't trying to
bring more people to the state so that I could retire in a quiet place.

Most of the start-up crowd seems to think that it's worth paying several times
more rent to be physically near the big money in SanFran. But there are a few
cities that have an active tech scene (Dallas and Kansas City come to mind)
that have managed to make it. The difference is that those were decently sized
cities with lots of other infrastructure to start with. Can a city with a
population under 100,000 offer the other infrastructure needed to create a
successful business? You've got fast internet, but do you have enough blue
collar workers to support your office needs? An airport big enough to offer
flights out to important meetings that can't be done virtually? There are
several other things to consider when picking a city to base a company from.

I'd recommend getting in touch with the Chamber of Commerce to see how you can
come together to pitch the city. Helena is certainly a nice place, but you
have to sell the other aspects than just fast internet.

~~~
Jemaclus
> Most of the start-up crowd seems to think that it's worth paying several
> times more rent to be physically near the big money in SanFran.

It's not an unfounded belief, imo. I've been trying to convince several of my
friends to move to San Francisco, and the "it's too expensive" refrain is
something I'm getting a little tired of hearing. Yes, it's expensive, but in
general, the salary and other income opportunities make it worth it for a
decent software engineer.

I don't know how much the cost of living is in Montana, but I'm from Alabama,
and I assume it's relatively comparable, and I had a 40K/year job there. My
rent was $500/mo. I'd say my monthly expenses were a little less than
$1600/mo, which puts my annual expenses at around 20K. Over the last five
years in SF, my annual expenses approached 60K, mostly toward rent (like you
said, rent is high). Whoa. That's crazy, right? But let's stop and do the
math.

Let's throw out a nice round number and say my average income over those first
few years in SF was ~120K and say 30% tax rate, to keep things simple. In San
Francisco, 120K (income) - 60K (expenses) - 36K taxes = __24K savings __. In
Alabama, 40K (income) - 20K (expenses) - 12K (taxes) = __8K savings __.

My expenses in Alabama were 1/3 that of SF -- the rent was almost 6 times
cheaper in Alabama than my rent in SF is! But in San Francisco, my increased
salary means that I'm saving three times as much in San Francisco versus
Alabama. My cost of living in SF is 3x higher than my cost of living in San
Francisco -- but my income is also 3x higher! And I'm not even included income
from stock or freelance work. (Granted, I could get stock and freelance work
elsewhere, but again, like you said, "the big money" is in SF, so roughly the
same math would apply.)

All this is to say that, assuming you enjoy living in an urban environment and
are responsible with your money, it IS worth paying several times more rent to
be physically near the big money in SF. __A dollar is a dollar anywhere in the
United States. __Saving 24K per year for 5 years gets you awfully close to
125K, well on your way to a nice house pretty much anywhere else in the
country - Montana included. It would take you over twice that long to get to
even 100K if you lived in Alabama.

Is it worth paying a high rent to enjoy the benefits of living in SF? I think
so. I love SF -- the city, the culture, the weather, the working environment,
and yes, the money. There are times when I wish I had a bigger house, but by
and large, I'm extremely happy here.

But more to OP's point: Would I move to Montana? I agree with you. There would
have to be really, really attractive incentives aside from money. Great
schools, great entertainment, friends, family, and plenty of job
opportunities. Solid infrastructure is a must, but my day job isn't my
identity -- there are another 12-18 hours in a day that command my time and
energy as well, and those needs must be met!

~~~
_delirium
I agree it can sometimes be a good comparison for SF, but I think there are a
_lot_ of circumstances where it isn't. Depends on the particular pair of
cities, and your other preferences, like type of housing.

For one thing, though this may not apply to Helena, the salary differential is
not nearly that big when you compare to many other cities. You can easily make
over $100k working in tech in lots of places that are comparatively cheap:
Austin, Pittsburgh, Houston, Chicago, etc. I think you will have trouble
running the numbers on salary vs. CoL in Google Mountain View vs. Google
Pittsburgh in a way that makes Google Mountain View come out ahead. I think
whether you prefer to rent or buy also makes a difference. SF is just about
doable on a high salary to rent, but requires serious wealth to buy. But the
strategy you allude to of renting there a few years and saving up to later buy
elsewhere is plausible.

------
fred_is_fred
Yes. As a full-stack eater who lives a full car life-style I think it would be
fun. I have a variety of interests which include skiing, camping, hiking,
beer, and restaurants. I also enjoy diverse scenery (like mountains). I'd get
all that if I moved to Helena and would be happy not to live in a city full of
the self-righteous .

------
awimbish
I love to hear about burgeoning tech scenes in places other than SF and NY.
Good luck to you.

~~~
Old_Thrashbarg
Same here, it would be nice for SF and NYC to have some more competition for
the tech scene, which may force them to loosen their restrictions on housing.

~~~
client4
I'd argue that all it takes to start a company is a place to sleep and a good
Internet connection (and good beer, but that's me). Also, fun fact, you could
buy a house in Helena and pay less than your rent in NYC.

------
danielpquinn
I grew up in Helena and I currently work for a Seattle-based startup. I will
be visiting the week of July 27th and would love to check out the office space
and learn more about your venture. I've always considered moving back to
Helena but opportunities like this were previously few and far between. Let me
know what you mean by "come visit"!

~~~
client4
We work out the The Shop, a co-working space on Last Chance. Heck yes come and
say hello!

[https://www.facebook.com/theshophelena](https://www.facebook.com/theshophelena)

~~~
danielpquinn
Thanks! I'll follow up via facebook.

------
sundaeofshock
No.

I'm a pescatarian who lives a car free lifestyle. I have a variety of
interests which include museums, musical theater, night clubs and restaurants.
I also enjoy cultural diversity. I'd have to give all that up to move to
Helena, while taking such a huge financial hit that it be difficult to move
back to a city that fits my lifestyle.

~~~
paulcole
Lots of trout in Montana.

------
BrandonBradley
Visit, yes. Move, probably not.

Maybe instead of an incubator, you should focus on local education. 'Growing
your own developers' outside of Silicon Valley seems to be a trend. It's
working in Nashville, at least.

~~~
eropple
Can you speak more to this? When I worked for a Nashville-based company about
two years ago, the hiring prospects were awfully limited.

~~~
hootener
I'm a Nashville-based software developer, so maybe I can lend some color to
parent's comment.

Parent may be speaking about the Nashville Software School[1]. Very recently
it has been turning out some great talent in the 0-2 yrs of experience range.

The rest of this post is pure anecdote from the perspective of someone that
has hired tech workers in Nashville, both full time and contract.

We seem to have a decent (but not enough, never enough) supply of junior devs
(0-2 yrs experience). Really experienced talent seems more elusive. I believe
that it's here, I just think most of it is employed already.

Additionally, the tech scene here is a little strange. There's an ever
expanding pool of web folks (e.g., Rails, Node, etc) and a surprising amount
of more Enterprise experienced developers (e.g, C#, Java) that arose as result
of all the HealthTech hiring that's been going on the last several years. So
veteran (e.g., 7+ years) software developers I've encountered seem to skew
toward Enterprise.

There's some startup activity here[2], and we're seeing some larger non-
healthcare outfits set up shop in Nashville (e.g., Warby Parker, Lonely
Planet). The technology scene here is really starting to come together, but
it's by no means a Silicon Valley, NYC, Boston, or even Austin yet, really.
It's getting there, but we're still a ways from seeing Music Row's inevitable
transformation into Silicon Row ;)

[1] [http://nashvillesoftwareschool.com/](http://nashvillesoftwareschool.com/)
[2] [https://angel.co/nashville](https://angel.co/nashville)

~~~
eropple
Interesting, thanks. I was working for a healthcare startup (almost but not
entirely a contradiction in terms) that was painfully, painfully enterprisey,
so that certainly could have been part of our experience.

We weren't looking for juniors, either, which complicated things.

------
fishtoaster
I like working at startups for a variety of reasons.

To pull a number out of my hat, let's say that one in twenty random tech
startups would be a good fit for me (based on tech used, experience needed,
culture, mission, pay, etc).

Say I find a great startup in Helena (where Helena is a stand-in for the many
US cities trying to foster a tech scene). It's one of, say, 15 up-and-coming
tech startups in the area. I move to Helena and work there.

What happens when that startup goes under (which is more than likely for any
early-stage startup anywhere)? What happens when it doesn't go under, but I no
longer want to work there for whatever reason, since companies necessarily
change significantly as they grow? There are 14 other companies in my target
size, and odds are none of them are a good fit. But I've moved here, settled
in, made friends, etc, and now I have to deal with either the high social and
financial cost of moving, or settle for companies I'm a worse fit for.

That's the main reason I live in SF and not any of the other cities trying to
be the next SF. If my startup goes under, I can pick up a similar job at
another in a few weeks without having to change apartments.

~~~
client4
That is a very good point. In my mind I was targeting those who are working on
their own company, their own idea, no matter the cost, without accounting for
those who would be working for them.

------
falcolas
I'm personally in Bozeman, and while Helena has quite a bit going for it, I
doubt I'll leave.

However, I would say that Bozeman is becoming quite the magnet for startups -
we get a bunch of experienced developers who are sick of working for Oracle
and a pipeline of CS majors straight out of MSU. A lot of execs also love to
live here with all of the outdoor activities, so they bring a branch of their
companies and startups here.

The lifestyle is very different from that of the city (I just recently went to
our home office in NY, so speaking from very recent experience). Entertainment
here consists primarily of outdoor activities (skiing, hunting, biking,
hiking, 2/4 wheeling, fishing, etc) than it does plays, theaters, and museums.
You'll also be driving at least some of the time... the nearest store is
typically 3-4 miles from your house, not 3-4 blocks. Public transport exists,
but not to the same degree as it does in a large city: a bus will visit a
particular stop every hour or more, instead of every few minutes.

It's a different pace of life, but I love it.

------
thaumaturgy
Possibly.

I've worked for a few years around the edges of boosting a startup scene in a
rural area that's roughly the same population as Helena. It's very, very
difficult work. Part of the trouble is that you meet a lot of really nice,
well-intentioned people, but ... the talent just isn't there. You see a lot of
bad results from a lot of effort.

You have to have someone there that is the go-to person for building and
supporting tech businesses in the area. We had a great guy here, but he
eventually moved on to other things and nobody else has yet filled the hole he
left. It has to be what they spend 100% of their time doing, and they have to
be well enough compensated for it that they don't start looking for other
opportunities.

You have to provide a real incentive for talent to come and stay, and
unfortunately office spaces and fiber connections aren't enough. Talent seems
to be drawn mostly to other talent and unique projects, so if you can convince
somebody with a good reputation to move there, that will help.

For startups specifically, money can be a problem in rural areas. Promising
startups will eventually need either venture capital or some really fantastic
business funding. Other people in our community have been told to their face
(by VCs) that they'd never get funding because there's no talent in our area.

And rural areas can have other issues too. Small-town politics, a local rag
for a newspaper, too much isolation can all wear people down, even those of us
that prefer small rural areas to living in dense metropolitan places.

Congratulations on building out your fiber network though, that's a hell of a
job. We've got a local ISP that's been trying to do the same for several years
now. They've been held up by federal bureaucracy for the last two years...

------
bobochan
Sure! As a Vermonter, I'm sure I would find a lot of fun things to do in
Montana. We are friends with a lot of folks in the nordic skiing community in
Wyoming, Colorado, and Alaska and they all sound like great places to live if
you enjoying running, biking, hiking and cross-country skiing. Bonus points if
there is a ski jumping scene in Helena.

~~~
client4
Awesome! My renters are from Utah and collegiate Nordic Skiers. For ski
jumping you'll have to trek to Bozeman/Big Sky or down to Utah.

------
loblollyboy
I would. I just graduated w an MS in nuclear eng and have been doing django
dev for a while. I'm not so sure I'm a natural "hacker"/engineer but I've
certainly been at it for a while. I currently work at a fast food place. Let
me know if you want to talk.

~~~
rorykoehler
Right here. This is what is wrong with our economic system and why I support
UBI. Nuclear engineer flipping burgers. Totally absurd.

~~~
toephu2
People should really stay away from using acronyms that are not known by the
general public. By using the acronym UBI you assume 90% of the HN crowd
understands what you're talking about? I google'd "ubi" and I got "Ubi -The
Voice Of The Internet", "Ubi Interactive", "Ubi - The Ubiquitous Computer -
Voice-Activated & Always On" and "United Bicycle Institute". So I have really
no idea of what you support.

~~~
thelambentonion
I believe GP is referring to 'Universal Basic Income' [1], however I've never
seen it referred to as 'UBI' before.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income)

------
caseyf7
Yes, but not for 1Gbps internet. SSH is all I really need tech wise. The most
important thing would be a group of people who are really into development and
have experience scaling systems. Unfortunately that is much harder to find
outside of the bay in a concentrated way.

~~~
PopeOfNope
Why not do remote development, then?

------
beefman
My parents retired to Helena the same year I moved to the SF bay area (2001).
We're from Pennsylvania. I find Helena to be dry, wind-swept, and lacking an
intellectual community (smoking, drinking and gambling are more prominent).
Also it's a pain to fly to/from (requires an expensive connecting flight on a
regional jet). Bozeman or Missoula might be a more attractive proposition.

It's not entirely without charm, of course. Here are some photos I took on a
solo hike out the back of my parents' place:
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/beefman/sets/687958](https://www.flickr.com/photos/beefman/sets/687958)

~~~
client4
About smoking and drinking -- Montana has the most breweries per capita in the
nation. I suggest you try drinking beer sometime as it may put hair on your
chest ;)

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
> it may put hair on your chest

One thing I like about being on the west coast is the slow dismantling of the
gender binary.

~~~
client4
Some of our women have hair on their chest. We don't judge here, nor ask
people to self censor in fear of offending someone.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
I would not. It's pretty as hell, but it's too small, too remote, too
homogeneous. My wife would have a hell of a time finding a job, and I'd be too
worried about stability and backup opportunities.

------
panjaro
Show me the money ! :) Just kidding. For a person like me, it largely depends
on if I really believe in the products you're making.

------
shoo
Tangent: I am interested in the FTTH rollout you mention. Can you share a few
more details about that?

~~~
aquark
Agreed -- as someone living semi-rural (rural, but not middle-of-nowhere) I've
often wondered about the economics of a fibre rollout, our only choices at the
moment are very pricey wireless (for the level of service)

But not in a position to move to Montana!

~~~
shoo
I have some familiarity with this from Australia's FTTH (now FTTx) rollout:

Since you mention that you live in a semi-rural area, one hugely important
factor is the density of premises along a street. The less dense an area, the
fewer potential customers you can "pass" by installing a new fibre cable down
a street. Not all premises that you pass with a cable will want to sign up and
pay for a fibre plan.

Construction can be made dramatically cheaper if it is possible to re-use
existing infrastructure. This is important, as if you are laying underground
fibre then the cost of digging new trenches (~AUD$100/m) is a huge component
of the total construction cost. For example, when installing underground
fibre, if there is existing underground duct with capacity that can be used
then it is far cheaper to re-use that (~AUD$20/m) than digging new trenches.
Similarly, if there are existing poles that can be rented then installing
aerial cables (~AUD$30/m) is cheaper than digging trenches, but more expensive
than using existing underground duct [1].

Another way to re-use existing infrastructure to reduce construction cost is
to make use of existing cable, such as copper lines or HFC, instead of laying
fibre over the full path from the exchange to the premises. The quality/speed
of the connection will not be as good as a pure fibre connection, particularly
if the existing infrastructure is old/degraded. These approaches are now being
favoured in Australia's national broadband project [2].

[1] note that in the U.S. labour costs are lower than in Australia, so don't
take these cost-per metre estimates too seriously. These costs exclude the
cost of the fibre itself, which is typically a few dollars per metre.

[2] personally I think it is short-sighted to embark on a major infrastructure
project and then try to save money by avoiding building the new
infrastructure, and instead re-use the existing degraded infrastructure. These
decisions were hugely influenced by political factors after a change of
federal government, i.e., the old plan was necessarily bad and needed changing
because the previous government started it.

~~~
aquark
Thanks for the great info.

We are ~10Km from the nearest village that likely has decent bandwidth, though
no idea on the backhaul available from there.

Still 10K @ $30 (AUD/CAD)\m would be $300K+ to put it along existing hydro
infrastructure. Wonder what the likelihood of getting 100 households to put up
say $3-5K in installation costs would be? That would represent a decent
fraction of those reachable along that stretch, and those nearer in may
already have DSL.

~~~
shoo
Very crudely, you might want to multiply that $300k guesstimate by a factor of
2 or 3 to take into account the cost of cabling off the main stretch,
splicing, splitters, installing "lead-ins" / "drops" to each household, etc.
Although if you were only serving a hundred households you could plausibly
serve them all from a single large fibre cable along the main stretch by
"pulling off" a couple of fibres into a smaller cable per household. This
wouldn't require any optical splitting gear, so that might make things a bit
cheaper.

For reference, the overall construction costs for Australia's FTTH rollout was
somewhere around AUD$1000 - AUD$2000 / premises -- probably toward the high
end of that scale, but the order of magnitude is right. This would
underestimate the cost for a semi-rural area. In Australia's project they use
fixed wireless / satellite for some areas where FTTx was not cost-effective.

Another thing to keep in mind is the maximum optical path distance -- from
memory this is probably somewhere around the 20km mark from the exchange,
probably a bit less, will depend upon the technology used. That still gives
you a ~10km buffer region of potentially reachable households around your main
fibre-atop-hydro stretch.

------
wishinghand
I'd need a damn good bookstore, donut place open late, plenty of non-American
food, used and/or new record store, and a music venue that gets good bands if
not famous ones. I can make my own fun after that.

~~~
client4
Ah the closest Montana town for you would be Missoula then.
[http://www.factandfictionbooks.com/](http://www.factandfictionbooks.com/) \+
[https://plus.google.com/105085381942018445206/about?gl=us&hl...](https://plus.google.com/105085381942018445206/about?gl=us&hl=en)
\+ [http://www.earcandymusic.biz/](http://www.earcandymusic.biz/) or
[http://www.rockinrudys.com/](http://www.rockinrudys.com/) \+
[http://www.ticketweb.com/snl/VenueListings.action?venueId=23...](http://www.ticketweb.com/snl/VenueListings.action?venueId=230744&pl=kftour)
and [http://eventful.com/missoula/venues/the-
wilma-/V0-001-001441...](http://eventful.com/missoula/venues/the-
wilma-/V0-001-001441969-3) and
[http://tophatlounge.com/events/](http://tophatlounge.com/events/)

------
chrismartin
I live in a city about the size of Helena but less geographically remote.
There is a good private university but not much of a professional tech
community.

As a sysadmin by trade, trying to pivot into software development/engineering,
I wonder if I should study and work in a 'hub' city (like the Bay Area) with
lots of bright and eager minds, or somewhere with cheap rent and few
distractions (like Helena) so it's easier to tune out the world and hit the
books/code.

------
brudgers
There are odd places that regularly produce startups, such as Huntsville
Alabama, but it has been an aerospace hub for 60 years. What is Helena's track
record for producing startups?

Keep in mind that high speed internet won't make an idea into a product people
want. The critical issues in tertiary markets are access to smart capital and
technical talent. How does the incubator plan to make money? What is the
Ruby/Python/Clojure/etc. community like?

Good luck.

------
Crito
Yes, Montana is a beautiful state and I am getting a little tired of paying
out the nose for a small apartment with no land. I imagine I'm not the only
one.

------
joelrunyon
Helena is pretty far east. I love northwest Montana - but I've never seen
Helena. What's the case for Helena?

~~~
client4
I'd say Helena is catching up in a big way with the social attractions of
Missoula and Bozeman. Lewis & Clark Brewing has been a huge benefit to the
local social scene; as has the Hawthorn and Blackfoot brewing. The surrounding
country is prime for boating, backpacking, hiking, climbing, and especially
mountain biking (check out Gravity Guild Garage). If you're perfect night
involves getting drunk on craft cocktails at the hottest gastropub then Helena
might not be for you though. Though I would suggest some local whisky from
Whistling Andy's in Bigfork, RoughStock in Bozeman, Willies in Ennis, etc.

------
netllama
Its a chicken & egg scenario. Most folks are not going to want to move there
because there's not many tech opportunities, and there aren't many
opportunities because no one is ready to move there.

What else is there in terms of opportunities in the tech industry in Helena
besides your new ISP?

~~~
client4
[http://www.sofi.com](http://www.sofi.com) has an office in Helena and is
hiring. There are state positions, and with access to high-speed Internet,
remote jobs.

------
forgotmysn
Although Helena seems nice, if I was trying to build a growing company, I
would be concerned about access to talent. Whats nice about tech hubs is that
there a lot of people in those areas with the skills and experience necessary
to help build software based companies.

------
adelevie
I'd love to see blog posts or any write-ups about your experiences founding an
ISP.

~~~
client4
It's a party like 1999. We were planning on doing an AMA at some point. Any
specific burning questions?

------
loblollyboy
I'll work anywhere so yes

------
MalcolmDiggs
It's hard to say. In your opinion, what kind of advantages would an early-
mover have? (As opposed to someone who waited for the startup ecosystem to
evolve a bit before moving)?

~~~
pki
1 gbps ftth might be an advantage

~~~
JoshTriplett
That's been available in several other areas of the country for a while now,
and people don't seem to be moving to those areas in droves either.

------
feybay
As a recent graduate looking for work I'd be very interested.

------
feld
No. I've recently driven through on my way to Seattle and while the
countryside was beautiful I don't think I could handle the local culture or
lack thereof.

~~~
DrScump
How exactly _does_ one properly evaluate the local culture from the freeway,
anyway?

------
ams6110
I would in an alternate life, but obligations preclude it now. Would a startup
in Helena hire a dev in his late 40s? I'd also consider retiring there, or
Alaska.

~~~
client4
It depends on your salary requirements. Something a lot of people have trouble
with is a massive pay cut on paper. A $150K job in San Francisco pays $65k in
Montana. That said, the cost of living here is much lower while the quality of
life is much higher.

------
robg
Perhaps post this as a poll?
[http://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll](http://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll)

------
lwhalen
If you're hiring remote sysadmins, I'd work for you. I love carrier-level
challenges, but not enough to move to Montana.

------
gargarplex
Yes, especially if you invest in my startup. The low cost of living is
compelling coupled with possibilities of a remote team.

------
brianwawok
No. Already live in a low cost of living place closer to better attractions.
But some people won't care...

------
stevebmark
No, there is nothing to tie most developers to Montana, especially other work
opportunities.

~~~
AustinScript
Aye - seems very "eggs in one basket"-e.

I could see folks that are starting a new business with relatively few
employees and no immediate plans for explosive non-remote worker growth being
interested though.

As for me, I don't have a reason to move to a small city without many non-
related work activities to engage in. I like the city life. I understand that
others would embrace the slower-paced outdoor Montana life style. However, for
me it is not a selling point :(

------
cottonseed
I'm from Montana. Absolutely not.

I have some friends who have a vision systems startup in Bozeman.

------
codeddesign
Free internet, office space, and no taxes for those in that office space might
do it.

~~~
client4
The only state taxes are property taxes -- so as long as you don't buy a house
you're good.

------
johnymontana
Yes.

