
A lot happens - devnonymous
http://jessenoller.com/blog/2015/9/27/a-lot-happens
======
notacoward
I can't say I've been there, but I've certainly been to the same city. It's
why I now work part time. We don't achieve anything without goals and
aspirations, but it's easy to get crushed under the weight of too many. Jesse
is a fantastically talented guy, and - in one of life's little perverse twists
- that's exactly what makes him vulnerable. Those who are most gifted and most
able tend to develop the highest expectations, both internally and on behalf
of those they love. It's tough to feel like you've fallen short, even when you
realize the goal was unrealistic or that others would have been happier for
you not to try. It takes a real adult to engage with these issues, and
something more to share the process with the world as Jesse has done. That's
courage right there.

I doubt that Jesse will ever read this. I sure wouldn't if I were in his
position, because this is exactly the kind of non-supportive community he was
talking about. Nonetheless, I'll say I'm glad to see he's moving forward once
more, still kicking ass even when his legs are sore. Good to have you back,
dude.

~~~
jnoller
I did. And thank you - you hit the nail on the head with "It's tough to feel
like you've fallen short, even when you realize the goal was unrealistic or
that others would have been happier for you not to try."

As for the rest, simply thank you - and yeah, I shouldn't be reading the
comments ;)

------
DonSchuler
It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiam, ambition, pride, fear ... it
happens to most of us all the time. Luckily I belong to the people who run out
of energy fast. Therefore I need to stop and break and make a reality check
for myself regularly.

I'm still driven by the ambition to achieve greatness (change the world,
become famous, buy myself an island). We need to use our brains first to
understand how wrong this motivation is, then to build great applications.

Edit: In my Python days I was a great admirerer of Jesse. The times he created
the multiprocessing module. I hope he will get back on his feet.

~~~
throwawaythisis
> It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm, ambition, pride, fear ... it
> happens to most of us all the time. Luckily I belong to the people who run
> out of energy fast. Therefore I need to stop and break and make a reality
> check for myself regularly.

I recognize myself in the behavior that the writer describes. Going all-in on
too many things, and all the negative consequences that result from that.

The feeling I felt as I read the article wasn't just recognition; it was
_envy_. Because I am actually one of those people who run out of energy fast,
my 'all-in' has not even resulted in a partner, kids, 'prominence' in any
community, etc.

Basically, I am in much of the same place as the author, for the same reasons
(to the degree that I can tell from one article, of course), except that I
have nothing to show for it.

The best I can say about that, perhaps, is that by having less to 'show for
it' I also have less to mess up or lose.

Small comfort.

Discovering that I also belong to the people that run out of energy fast, and
that even operating at 'normal speed' can be disastrous for me in very
particular contexts is a good thing though. If I learn to make these 'reality
checks' regularly, I will most certainly be happier and more grounded, and in
fact I'm pretty confident I'll even be able to 'achieve things' in the long
run.

And that's a ray of hope, however small and however far off its source seems.
Slow and steady wins the race, I think, applies very much to me.

My primary challenge is that I find it really, _really_ difficult to 'make
reality checks'. I have recently been diagnosed with (mild) autism, and
apparently this inability is pretty typical.

How do you keep yourself from either going too much all-in, or hiding from the
world too much, when much of the time you're barely aware of whether you're
doing one or the other? How do you remind yourself to do a reality check when
you forget about the reminder, because your brain is stuck on some random
obsession?

Sometimes I feel that I live in a world that is fundamentally not suited to
me. I don't think of eating unless someone else starts eating, but because I
live alone in a big city with some flatmates I barely know, I am often not
triggered. I don't think of leaving the house to socialize because there is no
clear pattern or cohesive structure to my social world. It's all opt-in and
based on personal initiative, mostly. I sometimes struggle doing work as a
freelance developer, because my brain gets stuck in a loop and I just pace my
room talking to myself. Or, the other way around, I work and work at the
expense of everything else and end up in a pretty bad place because of this.
It made me understand why weekends and vacations are important. If only I
could remember this. I've tried for years.

I sometimes miss the period in my life where external structures provided me
with a socialization pattern (student org.), where deadlines and tests forced
me in some kind of rhythm, or, longer ago, where living with my family
provided me with the triggers I need to engage in normal, healthy behavior
(eat well, sleep regularly, get outside, talk to people, sit with people not
talking, emotional 'cleanup' by talking to parents/siblings, etc).

Sorry about this reply getting off track. It sort of got away from me...

~~~
radiowave
I'm someone who only has limited amounts of energy (as in, sustained hard
thought and focus), combined with a tendency to get hung up on briefly
fascinating, but ultimately irrelevant details. My approach to making progress
on projects is to keep a very short list of things that I think I really _can_
make progress on, along with a few footnotes about what imperfections to
ignore, followed by a paragraph about _why_ I think I can make progress on
these items.

Then, on any day where circumstances are in my favor, I can look at the list,
pick something, and start doing it. Or, if I disagree with the list, then the
immediate task is to fix the list. Anything I no longer agree with, or don't
have the means to pursue, is removed. It feels important to me that the list
remains concise and focused.

I _think_ that I'm now better at switching off, being able to do other things,
being able to unwind, partly because the list gives me the confidence that
I'll be able to pick things up again tomorrow, without needing to wear a
furrow in my brain in the meantime.

~~~
signaler
Well said. The most industrious are those who live their lives by some form of
checklist, and manage to at least check some of the items off. The only
problem I have with checklists are those who obsessively try to achieve each
task on the list and presuming each item is somehow not complete unless the
others are completed.

A little known phrase that should be tattooed inside their skulls is
"opportunity cost" which I learned from Mark Manson's blog, and it is a great
phrase. Try to read "No you can't have it all".

------
jeffjose
Ha. As I was reading the Carina announcement [1] yesterday, I was pleasantly
surprised to see Jesse Noller as its author and I wondered to myself what
happened to him. He was everywhere, couple of years back and I had no idea
that you were going through pain.

As a fellow pythonista from far away land, thanks for everything you've done
for python. And good to have you back.

[1]: [https://getcarina.com/blog/announcing-
carina/](https://getcarina.com/blog/announcing-carina/)

------
hardwaresofton
Why doesn't OP move to Boston? If your daughters are the most important thing
in your life, then moving across the US to be close to them seems like a no-
brainer. One of the great thing about tech is that it's pretty easy to switch
jobs/work remotely/branch off and do your own thing.

Maybe there were some reasons that couldn't be stated in the article, and
maybe I'm being callous, if so, I apologize. Also, if OP was considering that
but wanted to wait till he got a better grip on himself, that's fine too.

~~~
koonsolo
> Why doesn't OP move to Boston? If your daughters are the most important
> thing in your life, then moving across the US to be close to them seems like
> a no-brainer.

My (future ex-)wife is the same. She says she loves her 3 children more than
anything, and she misses them when she's abroad for work, but still, she
chooses not to be with them.

Either they love their work more than anything, but don't want to admit it, or
they love their children but don't feel the need to be with them as much as
any other person.

Maybe it was a mistake for such a person to have children.

Sorry if I sound too harsh, but being recently in the same situation, but on
the other end, is pretty rough :(.

~~~
petercooper
_My (future ex-)wife is the same. She says she loves her 3 children more than
anything, and she misses them when she 's abroad for work, but still, she
chooses not to be with them._

People are different. Lots of people get lengthy deployments on oil rigs, in
the armed forces, or even high pressure international sales gigs - I don't
think these folks love their kids any less than me.

I love my wife and kids loads, but I also love being away from them for brief
periods of time (only up to a week in my job). It makes it so much better when
I return. We are all wired up differently emotionally - absence truly does
make the heart grow fonder in _my_ case.

------
neom
I've been through this three times in my life, each time it hits me harder and
harder, I'm going through it again right now in fact, my story could read
almost identically to this one. I often wonder if it's the crux of ambition.

I'm not one for self help books or any of that bullshit, however, The 15
Invaluable Laws of Growth by John C. Maxwell is an excellent read on this
subject.

Finding your purpose is hard, really really hard, I firmly believe some never
really do.

~~~
hardwaresofton
While I don't intend to be rude, not sure how else I could say this -- you're
not ruining other people's lives all three times right? There are a lot of I's
and my's in your comment which makes me wonder how much empathy you're
employing...

Also, have you tried to stop? Has it occurred 3 times unintentionally and this
article was the impetus you needed to make a change?

[EDIT] - lightened wording around the last few questions, comments have noted
that I was being too coarse, and ironically unempathetic

~~~
autoreleasepool
> makes me wonder how much empathy you're employing... Also, do you... want to
> stop? Has it occurred 3 time unintentionally and you just can't stop?

You really don't see the irony in questioning his capacity for empathy while
minimizing his hardships and suggesting they're likely all his fault?

~~~
hardwaresofton
Are any of the answers to those questions obvious upon reading the original
comment? I asked because those points weren't clear when reading the original
comment -- he notes it like it's a terrible thing but I was wondering how it
could happen 3 times, when OP had it happen once and had so many undesirable
things happen.

I must confess I haven't had something like this happen to me at this level,
so maybe my capability of empathy is diminished, but the questions do not
imply that it's entirely/likely his/her fault, outside of the fact that you
generally can't get into a situation like this without some action on your
part. This is precisely why OP is trying to take steps to change his behavior.

Maybe what I should have asked was: "Care to share more?" Without the pointed
questions.

~~~
neom
I'm sorry, tone is difficult over the internet I suppose. I presume you read
my post as if I was whining, I genuinely wasn't. I've considered it many many
times. Sometimes I think I should go work at a convenience store and just pick
a simpler journey.

However, It's mostly positive, as I'm sure Jesse is finding out. I wouldn't
trade anything, it's just hard, and that's that. Humbling, really. It's
feeling like you've failed yet you've not begun.

I had the privilege of talking with Sean O'Sullivan for an hour or so
recently, he coined the term we use today as "cloud". I explained how I felt,
and my situation (as mentioned, similar to Jesse). He made a pointed
observation about success. Often with success comes great failure, and it's in
the failures that we have the learnings, that lead to success. I wrote a
little about learning by doing: [https://medium.com/love-etc/small-
talk-795a6bc9b615#.kc8kopb...](https://medium.com/love-etc/small-
talk-795a6bc9b615#.kc8kopbnq) \- Learning by doing requires failure. Recently,
someone who I'll love eternally shut me out of their life because I
prioritized my work over them for months and months and months, I didn't
listen, I didn't act, but I did learn.

Frankly it seems most of us are not particularly vocal about our failings,
maybe some of us are perfect.

All of the times I've failed it's been because of me, and every time I fail, I
learn more about what it means to be: me.

~~~
hardwaresofton
It certainly is -- it's my fault, I should have phrased it better with that in
mind.

Thanks a lot for the thoughtful reply -- wish you the best! As you've put it,
it's certainly a journey (no way, don't pick a simpler one!), and it looks
like you're ready to be in it for the long haul. 100% agree on your thoughts
about success/failure and found your thoughts on smalltalk/education/love
interesting.

I have a brother who is trying to learn programming and I wish I could infuse
him with the spirit you've learned (I'm sure the hard way) to have. If only
there was some way to consistently teach tenacity.

~~~
neom
Thank you for your kindness. <3

------
sridca
Is love worth it?

Interacting with people, playing with children, etc. can be enjoyable
activities. Not saying that we should withdraw from it, but as intelligent
people can we take a step back and question _love_ itself, especially as it
causes so much pain?

Instead of loving and getting heart broken when the associated people depart
from one's lives, why not simply enjoy the company of people (without love,
trust and the concomitant sadness, resentment) and continue that enjoyment
whenever alone time is in order (short-term or long-term)?

More curiously - why are people _reluctant_ to question love itself? (it is
always one person or the other's fault, but never love's fault; why?).

~~~
hardwaresofton
Feel free to question it -- but also realize that you may come up with the
wrong answers.

I think it's wise (in most case) to defer to older generations when stuck with
serious questions like these -- and I doubt you'll find an older person/person
on their deathbed who would say something like "I wish I would have spent less
time loving, trusting, and committing to others".

I get the feeling if you took the approach you'd describe, all you'd end up
with are a bunch of loose acquaintance-like relationships, and nothing deeper.
Generally the realization that all your relationships are shallow is what
triggers people to seek out deeper relationships, which need/require
love/trust/commitment. Also, even if you were able to become completely
content with nothing but shallow relations, good luck not regretting
it/wondering if life could have been something more.

~~~
sridca
> Feel free to question it -- but also realize that you may come up with the
> wrong answers.

Which is why sincerity is essential.

> I think it's wise (in most case) to defer to older generations when stuck
> with serious questions like these -- and I doubt you'll find an older
> person/person on their deathbed who would say something like "I wish I would
> have spent less time loving, trusting, and committing to others".

The older generation are no better than us in regards to enjoying life without
sadness, loneliness, and so on ... and as such are not a reliable source to
draw inspiration from.

> I get the feeling if you took the approach you'd describe, all you'd end up
> with are [...] relationships, and nothing deeper. [...] shallow is what
> triggers people to seek out deeper relationships, which need/require
> love/trust/commitment). [...] shallow [...] regretting [...] something more.

Words like "relationship" or "deeper" and "shallow" and "regretting" and
"something more" are indicative of love in operation ... and questioning love
means questioning those associated beliefs as well. Why is it necessary to
_relate_ to fellow humans when they are already here on this planet? Why not
question the need to relate? If the ability to relate vanishes, what happens
to loneliness itself?

~~~
hguant
> The older generation are no better than us in regards to enjoying life
> without sadness, loneliness, and so on ... and as such are not a reliable
> source to draw inspiration from.

I think half of this statement is true. Yes, the older generation is no better
than we are at living well. They're just as likely to make mistakes. However,
that's the beauty of experience - you make mistakes, and you learn from them.
Experience is the best teacher, in any field. You're dismissing out of hand
the best resource we have to living better lives - the accrued experience of
our older generations. That just seems foolish to me.

> Why is it necessary to relate to fellow humans when they are already here on
> this planet?

The fact that you're posting this question on a message board for other people
to read,comment on, and interact with suggests that you don't believe the
things you're saying.

~~~
sridca
> You're dismissing out of hand the best resource we have to living better
> lives - the accrued experience of our older generations. That just seems
> foolish to me.

Except I'm not talking about "living better lives." The "better lives" wisdom
of older generation usually means "make the best of it [with love, of
course]."

Whereas I'm talking about questioning love itself. What is life like without
love and the associated feelings/beliefs? I'm interested in a perfect live; a
life full of enjoyment - and the older generations have nothing to offer in
that regard (to the contrary, they favour love and as such tacitly prevent any
questioning into it).

>> Why is it necessary to relate to fellow humans when they are already here
on this planet?

> The fact that you're posting this question on a message board for other
> people to read,comment on, and interact with suggests that you don't believe
> the things you're saying.

The word "relate" is used in its affective context, stemming from
hardwaresofton's use of shallow/ deeper relationships. Thus for clarity I'd
rephrase that question as: Why is it necessary to feel a relationship/
connection/ bond with fellow humans when they are already here on this planet?

I'm quite, if not fully, confident that love is a hindrance.

~~~
flaub
I believe humans (and possibly other mammals) wouldn't have made it throughout
our evolution without love. Look at how helpless humans are for at least the
first 8 years of life. That's 8 summers and 8 winters. There are many many
opportunities for parents to move on and say, "This is taking too much of my
time and energy, I want to do something more enjoyable."

I think this is one thing that older generations have context for that younger
ones (before becoming parents) can simply be unaware of. I know, I became a
parent within the last year and it has changed my thinking on many things.

Even if we tried to live a life without love, I don't know that it's possible.
Individually perhaps, but not as a strategy to have the human species continue
to go forward. Empathy is something that healthy brains do naturally, and is
really useful to keep a tribe or a society going (could even be required).
This goes back to keeping children alive; when parents can't or won't, the
tribe steps in.

Perhaps the modern world can make love obsolete; I hope that isn't the case. I
think our minds have evolved to live in a pre-modern era. Until we
fundamentally change our biochemistry, I'm pretty sure we'll have to make do
with it (along with it being a hindrance).

------
jakejake
Wow, super depressing. Don't forget that there's more to this life than
writing code, folks.

~~~
AndyKelley
Like what?

~~~
scott_karana
If you're asking that legitimately, not sarcastically, I'm sure we can help
you out. :)

~~~
AndyKelley
Indulge me.

~~~
scott_karana
> No, I'm attempting to prove a point. Indulge me.

No thanks. I was asking genuinely.

------
parennoob
Thanks to Jesse for having the courage to share this. Long and protracted
arguments online can give your mental fatigue in a way that in-person ones
cannot. The fact that this can happen to such a prolific Python contributor is
probably a great reminder for me to step away from the keyboard more often.

In fact, I think I'll do that right now :)

------
ThrustVectoring
For anyone who's into Constructive Developmental Theory (In Over Our Heads, by
Kegan), this is a classic case of why people go through the "adult"-ing
process of generalizing over relationships. Being all-in emotionally, being
unable to prioritize work and family and personal ambition, not having values
that he's proud of, not setting boundaries - it's all part of a bigger problem
that so many people are going through. Emotional maturity and personal grown
doesn't stop being important when you turn 18 or 22 or even 30.

~~~
davidp
Or even 40; I assume even 50 and beyond, but I haven't been there yet. If we
stop growing, we start dying.

------
peterwwillis
Most useful takeaway from this post:

> Just saying things “will be ok” isn’t enough, I’ve got to start making
> things better.

------
dudereally
For God's sake, man, move to your kids. Jobs are everywhere.

------
aryehof
Hi Jesse, I'm Aryeh. Perhaps one place to start is to forgive yourself and
start afresh. Consider the past over, finished and done. A new "you" if you
will, not the one you were before.

All that matters now is what you "DO", not what you think or believe. Smile,
don't judge others, do what is good and right, and say only good things of
others. This is the human challenge and journey.

If you want, say "hi" to me at aryehof at gmail anytime!

------
AlexEatsKittens
Wow. That is an intensely personal, and really thought provoking, post. I
happen to be going through something startlingly similar, so this hit home
pretty thoroughly.

I wonder if this is more common in our industry than in others. It feels like
it is incredibly easy to get wrapped up in tech and, as Jesse noted, it seems
like it is happy to take everything you're willing to give.

------
martin_
Great thought provoking read. Did you say "Hi" to anyone in the coffee shop?

------
scorpion032
Many people often try to optimise for the world view of themselves, rather
than their own experience.

Instead, when one starts to optimise for ones own experience, the idea of
falling short of expectations doesn't arise.

Life is lived in ones own experience and each person to himself is the most
important entity. Going through mental suffering is very hard, unnecessary and
I hope everyone that does go through it, comes out of it.

I wonder if this is the same Jesse I knew of. So much energy, so much
capability to do so many things.

------
jMyles
Yeah, as others have said: thanks for everything Jesse. I regret that it took
this outpouring - which is wonderful and important and super brave of you -
for us all to remember to say thanks.

I told a story at PyCon 2014 Storytelling about a job that I did over the
course of 6 months wherein the client was a bit abusive and I brought it home
and destroyed a relationship with a really cool lover.

It's really good for us all to seriously talk about this stuff.

Hope to see you in Portland buddy.

~~~
jschwartzi
Something that's never taught is how to deal with emotions in constructive
ways. At least, I don't know who I was supposed to learn it from. I think a
lot of us carry emotional turmoil with us that boils over in unrelated
situations.

------
adamsea
Success isn't what it looks like. Meaning, the image of success is not true
success (personally meaningful success), and true personally meaningful
success doesn't look like the oft-projected successful image.

It takes real effort to figure that stuff out.

------
s4chin
Wow. This was touching and very intense. As a student, this definitely goes
into my diary for the future.

------
GrumpySimon
"Jesse" not "Jeese"

~~~
voltagex_
and known, not know.

~~~
RussellDussel
And "Python", not "python".

~~~
devnonymous
Yep, thanks, all fixed ! Surprising how many mistakes one can make in a simple
sentence...although, as feeble justification -- I wrote that right after I
read the article and was still thinking about some of the stuff. There was a
bit of irony though in these corrections -- how we tend to focus on and
willing choose to spend energy on the things that don't matter in the long run
for things that make us feel good about ourselves.

~~~
nkurz
_the things that don 't matter in the long run_

Not just the long run! It looks like 'dang' already rewrote it to get rid of
all of those words. But at least I'll sleep easier knowing that as a team we
were able to fix the mistakes before it was erased. :)

------
wiz21c
"It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm, ambition, pride, fear"

ahahahahh.

That's so immature...

You have 24hours in a day, decide how you allocate them. You'll soon realize
that there's a _choice_ to make. Since we're coder, we need time to achieve.
So it's dead simple : * full time on code and you'll achieve => hapiness *
full time on family and you'll feel right => hapiness * 50/50 and you'll have
none of them and just have a basically I'm-not-extraordinary life

It always blows me away how many people refuse to see that this choice is
inescapable and that it implies abandpnning a bit of yourself to keep in touch
with humanity (i.e. friends, wife, children).

~~~
notacoward
What I think you're missing here is the role of ambition. Full time on coding
might make some people happy. That can happen if you only care about coding as
an activity, and not about reaching specific goals. It can also happen if your
goals fit within the amount of coding you can do individually in whatever
milieu you're doing it. What if the thing you want to do, the software you
want to create, requires more than that? Then you have to pull together a
team, which brings in a whole bunch of complexity and loss of control. It can
be awesome, or it can be draining and frustrating. Sometimes it's both.

On the flip side, "full time at home" isn't an option for many (probably most)
people who'd be reading your comment or mine. Somebody has to make some money,
not for its own sake but to reach family goals - housing of a certain quality,
schools, sports or hobbies, whatever. Then there's a time commitment on top of
that. It's a lot with one kid, it's more with two or three, it's _far_ more if
any of them or ill or troubled or disabled.

For many people, just having to choose is frustrating. People want to have a
successful career _and_ a good family life _and_ time for themselves, and they
just can't have all of them. Giving up on "having it all" is really really
hard, and it's not immature. In fact it's the characteristic struggle of
mature people, leading to burnout and mid-life crises. It's the immature, with
fewer commitments and simpler goals, who seem least affected.

That's (part of) why I think your "that's immature" is itself the most
immature thing I've ever seen on HN. It shows a startling lack of empathy for
people going through something you apparently never have. I hope you _are_
young, because if you can still say such a thing from the vantage of
experience that's even more pathetic. The struggle is real, and being laughed
at or condescended to as you go through it doesn't exactly help. It's part of
what Jesse was warning about.

~~~
jnoller
Grow up without money and constant financial worry, without a sense of home /
self and few / no friends and start in the workforce when you're a teenager.
You find yourself in "always make more money to be more secure" and "always
look for validation from other that you belong". You become career driven as
thats what defines you - and a "community" becomes your self reinforcement and
friends.

~~~
mercer
Wow. That's a very interesting point you touch on!

I've noticed that many of my late-twenties / early-thirties friends struggle
with their current lives, and I think it often is because of what you
describe: they spent so much time trying to 'become' that they never really
considered or learned how to 'be'.

I struggle with this myself sometimes, too, and I consider learning how to
'be' with what I am now to be one of my biggest challenges and most important
skills to practice.

~~~
notacoward
I don't think it's a late-twenties or early-thirties thing. I'm 50, and many
people in my own age cohort (including me) have to deal with the same issues.
IMO it has to do with the kind of community one grew up in vs. the kind of
community one occupies as a computer professional. If they're significantly
different, there's a feeling of being an outsider/impostor and of having to
_try_ to fit in. If they're the same, there's no such drive. People who grow
up poor and find themselves living amidst the relative affluence of high tech
are often the most aggressive about either saving money or showing the outward
signs of wealth. People who are the first in their families to get a good
education are often the most likely to value it and/or show it off. You see
the same sort of thing among people who lived through the Great Depression, or
WW2 and its aftermath. In contrast, people who had all these things since
birth tend to take them for granted and not think about them much. Cinderella
never quite felt as comfortable in the castle as everyone else seemed to.

