Ask HN: How do you identify a “dead-end” job during an interview? - a_lifters_life
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hluska
Very carefully...;)

Personally, I find interviewing a candidate more stressful than being
interviewed. Stress doesn't do anything good for me and when I'm under stress,
I don't always show off who I truly am. Rather, I tend to show off a much more
uptight version of myself.

That said, here are some of the strategies that I use to evaluate potential
employers.

\- When they describe the job, is it full of wishy-washy corporate speak or
can they give me an actual sense of what the average Wednesday morning will
look like?

\- When I email them after the interview, do they reply? How long does it
take? How is their written grammar?

\- Is it a new position? If yes, how did the position come about? If no, what
happened to the last person?

\- What happens when I ask questions like, "let's say that I need a $25/month
software product to do my job. What will the process of getting that approved
look like?" Are they evasive? Does the answer involve getting 74 signatures
and an animal sacrifice? What happens if I change the value to $150 a month?

I hope that this helps!

~~~
PancakeAH
I think that last question is really good, sniffing out bureaucracy is
something I would focus highly on. As a developer it would be important to me
to know what their environment provisioning is like. Maybe something like:

\- I'm running a proof of concept for something that will exceed the
limitations of my local machine. How would I get/walk me through the process
of getting virtual space.

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RogerL
Figure out what the job entails, and the tech required to do that. Then recall
the job description - is every need listed as a requirement? If so, this is
"dead end" by any reasonable definition, as they expect you to learn
absolutely nothing on the job, but just regurgitate what you did for somebody
else.

That is not entirely sure fire, as of course maybe your next task will give
you the opportunity to learn new things, but to me it is always a red flag
that cannot be ignored. If you expect me to know every last thing you need, I
don't want to work for you because I will be stagnating in my career. I'm not
going to gamble that I'll be allowed to move into a different group (I'm way
past the beginning of my career, where some dues paying is usually in order).

If you are on the other end of hiring - consider letting us know what our
chances of growth are in the job. So many job reqs just list requirements.
It's hard to get excited about repeating the past.

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pm24601
Not a definitive list but indicative:

1\. they are using older versions of software with no plan to upgrade (not the
same as using older software but planning to upgrade)

2\. they are using the waterfall model

3\. the companies growth plans are limited ( thus the need to develop new
features are limited. )

4\. maintenance takes a lot of time and as the new hire - you get that job

5\. automated tests are a foreign concept.

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muzani
The potential that lies within a job is correlated to how much value you can
contribute to the company.

When I look for a job, I screen it like an investor. I look at the team, the
market size, the product. Team is especially important.

1\. What are the bosses' background? Someone who worked at Facebook will have
an entirely different approach than a management consultant. Sniff out culture
and make sure it suits you. People's work and personal habits are very
different - this is where you tell the two.

2\. Look at the org chart. Organization charts are like software architecture.
There is no "best" org chart; just what it's optimized for. If it insists on
being a flat heirarchy, assume that it's an anarchy. You just want to make
sure that they respect your role.

For example, one company has sales, marketing (separate from sales), finance,
operations. Operations is then split into logistics, IT. Product development
is squished under IT. This is likely a bad company for engineers. Likewise,
I've seen companies where at least 50% of the budget is engineering.

3\. What is the value of your role? If you make $100k, how are you
contributing $200k to your company annually? If you find that you can only
contribute $30k or that the position is worthless in a year, that's a red
flag.

4\. Growth rate. If a company's profit is doubling every year, there will be
much less bureaucracy and politics.

5\. Sniff out bullshit. I ready the most uncomfortable questions I can find.
Why aren't they hitting a good growth rate? Why are they hiring so many people
on $1M of funding? If they give you an honest "Uhh.. well.. I don't know,"
that's fine. It's difficult to lie. You want to detect the ones who lie as a
reflex.

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loumf
I think the answer lies in where the project is in its customer-adoption
lifecycle.

\- Is it a new idea with tons of growth potential, but unproven?

\- Do you have early adopters, but still trying to find the bigger markets?

\- Is it something that is currently growing very fast?

\- Is it something that once grew fast, but now is more stable? Still makes a
significant amount of money through new accounts?

\- Is it something that makes most of it's money through maintenance and not
new accounts?

\- Is it something that has a large, but shrinking code-base?

All projects go through life-cycles like this. At the beginning it makes sense
to invest in more growth -- at the end it makes sense to lower costs (and
outsource).

Each part of the lifecycle needs a different skillset and has different kinds
of goals.

If there's one part of the cycle you prefer, the trick is to move projects
once the one you are on moves out of that part. Also, don't join teams that
are past the part you want to do.

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Jemaclus
I don't think you really can. In my experience, it's in the employer's best
interest to hire good people, and it's not in their best interest to be candid
with you. Furthermore, even if I as an interviewer worked for a shitty
company, it's still in my best interest to hire good people so that the
company becomes less shitty over time. Therefore, there are very few questions
you can ask that will give you a good insight as to whether a position is a
dead-end job (whatever that means to you) or not. I'm not going to lie to you,
but I'm also going to spin it in the most positive light I can to entice you
to join my team.

At my last interview, I had a lot of success pretending that I was the one
interviewing 5 people rather than being interviewed by those people. I asked a
lot of questions, tried to get a sense of their day to day. It turned the
interview into a bit more of a dialogue and less of an interrogation, and I
think I got to see a bit more about how those people worked and what they
thought during their time with me. I asked them a lot of the same questions I
ask candidates when I'm interviewing them.

It worked pretty well. Got an offer. Wound up declining, because I sensed it
wasn't a role I wanted, but I don't think any particular question gave me that
impression.

Anyway, I don't think you can really find out in an interview. I think you'd
have more luck talking to people outside of the interview or reading Glassdoor
reviews, and so on.

~~~
JSeymourATL
> I had a lot of success pretending that I was the one interviewing 5 people
> rather than being interviewed by those people.

THIS is a smart play for every job-seeker. Develop your own scorecard and
questions for individuals on the interview team. Relative to "Dead-End"
status-- explore if this particular role & its work are recognized and valued
by colleagues and corporate higher-ups.

\- What are the team/company mission & goals?

\- How will they evaluate your work?

\- How might you leverage the experienced gained here?

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NumberCruncher
>> "Read ad. ad. Send in resume. Go to job interview. Receive offer.” is the
exception, not the typical case, for getting employment: Most jobs are never
available publicly, just like most worthwhile candidates are not available
publicly. Information about the position travels at approximately the speed of
beer, sometimes lubricated by email. [1]

In my experience taking a job the formal way is like getting married after 5
dates. Pure gambling. And this is true for both parties. That is why you as an
employer hire former co-workers you get on well with, your friends or friends'
friends for the good positions and strangers for the shitty ones.

I hope this answers your question.

[1] [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
pro...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)

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paulus_magnus2
Aren't all jobs meant to be dead end, and our role is to somehow escape the
fate? Escaping is complex process, mostly political. First they have to like
you, then the company has to be successful / grow fast enough in your
division.

Roles with built in career progression are called "fast track leadership".

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api
1\. The company is not growing and has no plans to grow. This is huge and
probably swamps all the others.

2\. The job is to maintain something old, and you get a sense there are no new
plans for this product.

3\. Is the software "enterprisey" in the pejorative sense: bloated, slow,
over-engineered, etc. This might be a sign of a _stable_ dead end job, and
some people might want that. Leave these jobs to them.

4\. Does the company either (a) promote from within, or (b) look good on a
resume. If the answer is no to both, it's not going to advance you. Note that
a startup with growth potential may satisfy one or both of these-- if you join
early you are likely to hit a high position if it succeeds, and a successful
startup looks good on a resume.

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DanBC
You can ask some questions.

"Where do you see me in two years?"

"What are the opportunities for career progression?"

"How do you support professional development?"

That's not going to work if they're deliberately deceiving you, but it should
catch most companies if they see this as a dead end job.

~~~
moftz
I had a summer job at a help desk once. Pretty much the only career
progression for those guys on the phone were moving up to being the manager of
them and still taking some phone calls when the lines were swamped. After
that, there wasn't much else the company would do with you unless you had a
bachelors and some certs.

Just asking about the manager position would have been a pretty clear sign
that its a dead end job. It wasn't a hard job and they all got paid pretty
well for help desk but it wasn't that enjoyable for anyone there.

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vincentbarr
I think you can began evaluating whether it's a 'dead-end' job long before the
interview, potentially saving both you and the interviewer time.

1\. Search LinkedIn for current/former employees of the company who held the
title you are evaluating.

How long did they stay with the company? What were they up to previously; what
are they doing now? Were they able to grow their responsibilities/title at the
company? From what you can tell, do they sound like someone you would learn
from or want to work with?

2\. Glassdoor. Sort reviews by date, then filter by those specific to your
department.

3\. Speak with a few recruiters. Ask them about the company you're
considering.

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toomuchtodo
You can't. You won't know until you're in the role.

Source: ~15 years in the tech sector

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akshayB
If you notice that position is open for a long time and never gets filled, its
most likely a job nobody wants to do.

~~~
apryldelancey
Yes!

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apryldelancey
In addition to the great responses already...

Do your research ahead of time on the company and people. Check out their
social media, etc. Ask if this is a new position or are you replacing someone.
If you're replacing someone, ask how long they were in the job. Ask about
turnover.

