
Microsoft Surface Studio - 1st1
http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/26/13380462/microsoft-surface-studio-pc-computer-announced-features-price-release-date
======
ChuckMcM
That looks pretty awesome, and it makes the iMac seem even more tired which I
assume was intended. It is startling to have a story about IBM extolling the
virtues of Macbooks for business and Microsoft launching a platform targeting
designers, it really is amazing. But setting all of that aside for a
moment....

The screen. Clearly that is the thing which makes this announcement. For me,
the 3:2 aspect ratio is so more reasonable for computers than 16:9. And having
a zillion pixels is wonderful although my CAD package (TurboCAD) still doesn't
deal well with the high DPI screen off the Surface Book, I'm sure it would
look silly on this machine.

My experience with the Surface Book tells me that the PixelSense technology is
really great for drawing. I have both it and the iPad Pro and not too
surprising, at twice the cost, in my opinion the Surface Book's drawing
experience is better than the iPad's. I base that opinion on precision of the
drawing, expressiveness, and the response time.

Touch. Microsoft is really doubling down on the whole touching thing and so
far Apple has stayed away from it with its compute platforms. That is both a
strength and a weakness. The rest of the ecosystem doesn't always understand
what to do, so you get controls that are too small to use your finger on
sometimes, and odd sort of multi-monitor experiences where things appear on
one screen and then when you resize them they jump to the other and try to
adjust for "touchiness".

If the tools people can get their act together, and by that I mean the
designer tools (I for one would love to see a schematic capture and board
layout system that was touch enabled and pen enabled) then I think it is only
good news for Microsoft, if they can't, then Apple will look really smart at
not adopting a "gimmick".

Either way these things are hugely fun to use and play with.

~~~
rsync
"The screen. Clearly that is the thing which makes this announcement. For me,
the 3:2 aspect ratio is so more reasonable for computers than 16:9. And having
a zillion pixels is wonderful although my CAD package (TurboCAD) still doesn't
deal well with the high DPI screen off the Surface Book, I'm sure it would
look silly on this machine."

It may interest you to know that there is a reasonably priced 1:1 aspect ratio
monitor available for purchase on amazon:

EIZO FlexScan EV2730QFX 26.5" Square IPS Monitor 1920x1920 (EV2730QFX-BK)

I bought one to tinker with.

~~~
ChuckMcM
That is pretty cool. Oddly enough something I've been thinking about would be
a high dpi "ribbon" screen, something that is perhaps 14 - 16" wide by 3 - 4"
tall. To sit just behind my nice mechanical keyboard. That screen would have
application specific tool bars with large icons and easy to tweak controls
(sliders, buttons, etc). That would allow me to give over my "big" display to
the project workspace, whether it was a circuit, MCAD design, or illustration.
The "special sauce" being that I could render to it as a screen and it would
have multi-touch capable gestures for the controls.

I prototyped some of that with a mimo 10" touchscreen[1] but in my vision
touching a control on the 'ribbon' screen doesn't steal the mouse pointer :-).
I've been playing lately with some ST Micro 32 bit parts that can drive a
display and use BT LE to communicate back to the PC. It may be possible to
"download" control panels to the screen and then get the feedback through a
BTLE handler rather than trying so somehow hook the event handler of a
standard App and have it take control selection events from this screen/non-
screen entity.

So if you find a long and narrow high DPI screen, DVI, MPI, or even VGA driven
would be ok. And a capacitive touch layer, I'd love to get one of those to
play with.

[1] [https://www.mimomonitors.com/collections/10-inch-
monitors](https://www.mimomonitors.com/collections/10-inch-monitors)

~~~
rsync
These exist and they are called "bar type displays" and are usually used for
gate information in train terminals.

NEC has a fairly inexpensive one that you can buy on amazon for $675[1]:

Nec Display Multisync X431bt Digital Signage Display

... however the resolution is relatively low - 1920x480

There are others that are in the 4k range but I can't find the link right now
...

[1] [http://www.necdisplay.com/p/large-screen-
displays/x431bt?typ...](http://www.necdisplay.com/p/large-screen-
displays/x431bt?type=support)

~~~
ChuckMcM
That NEC display is nearly 4 feet long. I am thinking the same width as a full
size keyboard so on the order of 15 - 18". 1920 x 480 would be ok for a
display that was 18" wide and 4" tall. Although I'd prefer it be 3450 x 768
(192 dpi)

~~~
rsync
Not sure if you'll make it back to this thread, but I found the other (much
more interesting) manufacturer of bar-type displays:

LiteMax and their spanpixel line of panels:

[http://www.litemax.com/en/product/category/Spanpixel/22](http://www.litemax.com/en/product/category/Spanpixel/22)

I see smaller (15 and 19 inch) displays as well as the "smart shelf" displays.

Here is a 3840x536 display @ 43.5", which is the one I am interested in:

[http://www.litemax.com/en/product/Spanpixel%204355-INU/40](http://www.litemax.com/en/product/Spanpixel%204355-INU/40)

~~~
ChuckMcM
The Spanpixel ones are exactly what I was looking for! Now to try and figure
out how to get them, I see that Avnet is a rep for them so perhaps they will
be able to help me out.

~~~
rsync
They don't look cheap ...

Glad I could help :)

~~~
ChuckMcM
Sure, but if you can make a prototype and develop a kickstarter that goes way
over its funding goal, then you can either negotiate a better price, or other
manufacturers will come out of the woodwork to serve you because there is a
huge overcapacity glut on LCD glass.

~~~
rsync
Also, not sure if you saw this (I didn't, at first) ... if you look at the top
text on:

[http://www.litemax.com/en/product/category/Resizing%20LCD/22](http://www.litemax.com/en/product/category/Resizing%20LCD/22)

it appears that they are cutting up existing LCD panels up to make these
screens ...

------
gthtjtkt
$2,999 and the best GPU option is a last-gen mobile card? The default 965M is
a crappy budget card (half the performance of the 980M), and if you want the
980M you have to pick the $4,199 configuration.

And _hybrid_ drives!? This thing starts at $2,199 and you can't even get a
full SSD? I know 2D designers probably won't mind the GPU, but they could
definitely benefit from a true SSD.

Hell, the recently announced Razer Blade Pro has top of the line _everything_
(including a desktop GTX 1080 GPU, 1TB SSD, and 4K screen suitable for
photo/video editing) and it still costs less than the 980M Surface Studio:
[https://www.wired.com/2016/10/razer-blade-pro-
laptop/](https://www.wired.com/2016/10/razer-blade-pro-laptop/)

I must be missing the value proposition here because that price seems absurd,
especially for a computer presumably geared towards professionals.

~~~
kayoone
typical HN naysayer, if Apple did this everyone would be raving about it.
Maybe you missed that the screen also includes a Wacom digitizer ? Compare the
price to a 27" Wacom Cintiq and it might make more sense to you. Other than
that it's gorgeous, GPU performance is adequate for the usecase, better than
the 5K iMac anyway.

~~~
jff
No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.

------
1st1
I have to say this is the first time in years when there's a feeling that MS
has outpaced Apple. The product looks amazing.

~~~
mozumder
As an Apple (Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, PowerBook, PowerMac G5) user for 15 years,
of photo processing & inDesign layout, I agree.

XCode & iOS development is going to keep me on Apple for now, though, but the
Linux subsystem for Windows is really appealing. The BSD Unix environment is
the whole reason I went with Apple in the first place. OS X is basically a
Unix workstation & perfected anything the Linux desktop wanted to be.

Surprised MS went with nVidia 980s instead of 1080s, & Win 10 still a little
clunky compared to OS X.

~~~
TheRealDunkirk
> the Linux subsystem for Windows is really appealing

In theory. To anyone who feels that way, please try it out for yourself before
making a leap. I thought it would let me develop Ruby on Rails under Windows
like I could do on Linux or macOS. I discovered a whole bunch of unimplemented
features that prevented this. After a couple of months of commenting on bug
reports and watching and trying, I gave up. I'll check back later. YMMV.

~~~
ohstopitu
The biggest issue I have had with their subsystem is that of the file system
(NTFS). The fact that I can't have long paths and can't soft link seem
ridiculous.

~~~
mwfunk
NTFS has a functional equivalent to soft links in the form of reparse points,
although I don't know to what degree that feature is exposed in the UI, if at
all. Last time I looked into it (admittedly, years ago) they could only be
created via the command line. Not sure what you mean by "can't have long
paths" though, NTFS allows you to programmatically create paths up to 32,767
code points long:

[https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/aa365247.aspx](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/aa365247.aspx)

~~~
ohstopitu
Windows seems to have a certain hard limit on file path characters (a max of
160) which they seem to have recently removed [0] - So while my point is
technically moot it's not enabled by default.

As for soft links, a lot of linux tools create soft links (ln -s from to) and
generally that fails on NTFS (I tried installing a bunch of npm modules and
all had this specific issue)[1].

[0] - [https://mspoweruser.com/ntfs-260-character-
windows-10/](https://mspoweruser.com/ntfs-260-character-windows-10/)

[1] - [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8232778/nodejs-npm-
insta...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8232778/nodejs-npm-installing-
modules-on-ntfs-partition)

~~~
int_19h
It's a max of 260, and it's a Win32 subsystem limitation, not the limitation
of NT OS or NTFS file system - and even in Win32 there are escape hatches for
it, it's just that you need to know of them and use them explicitly to get
such support.

With respect to symlinks - NTFS supports them, but there are subtle semantic
differences with POSIX. WSL does actually support symlinks (i.e. you can do ln
-s), it's various other behavior around them that breaks, like trying to untar
a file that contains symlinks.

The team said that they're working on a custom implementation of symlinks that
would provide proper behavior (but wouldn't be seen as a symlink from Win32).

------
mhomde
I can't but feel sad that Microsoft somehow is dropping the ball on mobile
despite them having been, briefly, in a prime position to succeed. They've
executed well with their "One platform"-strategy. UWP is great and with the
new composition API their finally moving into being able to compete in the
modern software arena. Meanwhile on the hardware side Panos is basically doing
what Apple should have been doing if they had any creative leadership left...
but it doesn't matter, for some reason they've seemed to abandoned mobile
despite having all the pieces in place.

Their mistreatment, lack of support and quality assurance of the mobile side
of the platform has been dismal. It's very weird, obviously they can do
hardware, they have the ecosystem to back them up and the API teams have been
doing some great stuff when it comes to w10, yet they've seemed to given up on
mobile.

I must say I don't understand it, how can such a big player as Microsoft
abandon such a strategic area of their ecosystem? I understand that it's hard
to be a profitable in the harsh reality of consumer electronics and that the
money is in business... but yet, if you're not in mobile you're leaving a
gaping hole in your ecosystem that leaves the other parts vulnerable. I don't
understand why they don't simple pour resources into mobile with the same
enthusiasm as tablets/laptops and gaming.

Something must be off with the leadership or I'm missing something

~~~
partiallypro
What is going to set Microsoft apart in mobile at this point? The fact that
you probably can't answer that is why Microsoft is still at the drawing board.
One day they will return to the mobile world, probably next spring; but for
now launching a good smart phone, even a great smart phone, that lacks the
eco-system of Apple and Google is DOA unless it has something else appealing
about it.

I suspect the "Surface Phone" will be announced next spring, and I'm sure
Panay and his hardware team will knock it out of the park, but without Windows
10 Mobile catching up there's no point in releasing it even if it's the
greatest phone hardware ever created.

Once the proper software that can set Microsoft apart is in place, it will
strike. The smartphone market is so saturated right now they could catch
everyone off guard and make a dent.

~~~
8ytecoder
This. I think this is why they are pushing UWP and convincing more people to
build apps for Windows 10 using it. If this strategy succeeds, they'd have
everything in place for a relaunch. It would be so seamless for developers to
support Windows 10 Mobile, they'd just do it.

~~~
DarkByte
Actually I strongly beleive the Linux subsystem in Windows 10 will be used on
The next Windows Surface/Phone to accommodate Android apps and the android
market. Then UWP will demonstrate its performance and Graphic API advantage.
Hell Microsoft could even import android projects into UWP projects through
the flexibility of CLI if they really wanted to.

~~~
bitmapbrother
That's a pretty silly belief. MS failed at running Android apps. They also
failed with their attempts to port iOS apps to their platform. In fact, all of
those "bridges" have been burnt to the ground.

One more thing, Microsoft will never be able to use the Google Play store
unless they make an Android device that passes all of Google's requirements.

------
pjmlp
Love it.

It even has a version of their ergonomic keyboards, something that I cannot
really understand with Apple, how can one even manage to program in such flat
keyboards.

Apple, one of the first companies to introduce ergonomic keyboards to the
world.

~~~
thirdsun
Even worse is that horrible Magic Mouse - it's an ergonomic nightmare. Of
course there a good alternatives from other brands but none seems to feature a
good touch surface. I hate scrolling in steps like it's common with non-Apple
mice. So, it's either good ergonomics or touch scrolling in any direction.

~~~
why-oh-why
I keep seeing comments about the Magic Mouse' "horrible ergonomics" and really
don't get it.

I've had "ergonomic mice" for a while before and, yes, they felt perfect in my
hand. The issue is that _I move the mouse with my fingers_ and not with the
whole arm, so my palms stops touching their _oh so ergonomic surface_ pretty
soon, defeating its purpose.

~~~
thirdsun
By alternatives to the Magic Mouse I mostly meant mice that aren't that flat.

However I actually use a vertical mouse by Evoluent and in my opinion the
vertical position is the real benefit. It really reduces wrist pain for me.
However it still comes with the same limitations as any other non-Apple mouse:
No touch scrolling, not even horizontal scrolling. Which is why I use a
touchpad as well.

------
20tibbygt06
Starting at $2,999 to $4,199

Product Page:
[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-
Studio/productID.5074015900)

*Surface Dial included

edit: as pointed out below you do get a Surafce Dial with the purchase of the
studio. I originally looked at the "what's included" section where the dial
was not listed.

~~~
mobiuscog
Compared to a 27" Cintiq QHD Touch, the pricing is very competitive.

~~~
vvanders
Yup, people considering this for a standard PC aren't really making an apt
comparison.

All the creative people I know said Cintiq set the bar, looks like MS is
making a square aim at that market.

~~~
nileshtrivedi
I have often wondered why only the graphics/video people are called
"creatives". :-)

------
jarjoura
At first I applauded Microsoft for continuing to advance the desktop computer
market. This is something I wish Apple would continue to invest in but is
clear they're moving towards building machines for the engineers to build iOS
software.

However then I jump into the Microsoft store and check it out...

$4,199.00 for the high-end option gets you a hybrid drive, probably connected
over an older SATA bus and a graphics card from last year? USB 3.0 only and no
Thunderbolt?

Is this a system that was designed last year and it took a full year to get to
production?

Sorry if I'm being bitchy, but to me this is typical Microsoft only going the
80%.

~~~
MAGZine
Why, pray tell, would Microsoft include a thunderbolt port, an apple standard,
on their device? It had licensing issues before, not sure if it still does or
not—wouldn't be surprised.

I'd want a USB-C port before I'd want a thunderbolt port!

~~~
mwfunk
Thunderbolt is an Intel standard, Apple was just an early adopter.

------
laurent123456
With its Subsystem for Linux aimed at developers and now this desktop PC for
designers, it seems Microsoft is quickly catching up with Apple. Now if they
could release a good alternative to the MacBook Pro that would be great.

~~~
jhwhite
MS is definitely taking the steps in the hardware department that Apple has
been lagging behind on.

But I still feel Windows itself is not a productive OS. I'm big on keyboard
shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based. Being required to use my pinky to
try and hit CTRL instead of my thumb to hit COMMAND to do simple things like
copy and paste is HUGE to me.

I didn't use a Windows machine for 3 years and when I did need to use Windows
again it was extremely frustrating. I remember switching from Windows to OSX
and it felt more natural.

Anyway, MS is definitely making some cool stuff and I like the direction
they're going. But I'm still not ready to go back.

~~~
WayneBro
> I'm big on keyboard shortcuts but MS is very much mouse based.

Incorrect. You can operate the entirety of Windows with just the keyboard.

Please tell me what you cannot do with the keyboard in Windows and I'll
straighten you out.

OS X/macOS is definitely worse with regards to keyboard acceleration. For
instance, here's a glaring omission on Apple's part: try opening any window
from the menu bar (e.g. the BetterSnapTools preferences dialog) then switch
away from it with ALT+TAB and you'll be unable to switch back to it.

~~~
reitanqild
I came to Mac in 2009 expecting great keyboard shortcuts because of everything
I had heard.

IMO they were fewer and less consistent than Windows and Linux shortcuts at
the time and a huge disappointment.

(Example: no consistent way of selecting from cursor to end of line - there
was no end button and which modifier to use varied with the application you
used...! I have joked that the superior touchpad on the Mac is an adaptation
to make it usable despite its inconsistent keyboard shorcut handling.)

~~~
mikestew
_no consistent way of selecting from cursor to end of line_

Cmd-shift-right arrow. There are others, but that's the one I use and I don't
recall it ever not working.

~~~
reitanqild
You might very well be right now but IIRC between 2009 and 2012 this was hit-
and-miss for me. I cannot remember which applications anymore but I was a Java
programmer back then as well.

~~~
Lio
I've seen keyboard issues in JVM based IDEs before, specifically Webstorm.

I've also seen some keyboard shortcuts not mapped properly in Firefox and
Chrome. e.g. in the Chrome console the home and end keys don't work as
expected under macOS

I always assumed these were cross-platform library issues but I don't know for
sure.

------
digi_owl
As a reminder, Pixelsense means that the whole screen is a short range camera.
Put a QR code or similar on it and Windows can read it and react accordingly.

~~~
blackoil
That was the technology of original Pixelsense, now MS is just using the brand
name for high quality display like 'retina' is for Apple.

~~~
digi_owl
It would be careless of them to water down the brand like that, after having
developed the technology in the first place.

~~~
dragonwriter
The current use of "Surface" itself is an example of Microsoft watering down a
brand in much the same way; it might be careless but it's absolutely
consistent with Microsoft's past behavior.

~~~
swang
Surface originally was a large windows tablet that doubled as a "table" it
also had fancy sensors underneath that allowed you to do a couple of cool
things and other way cooler things that never came to fruition.

Seems like it would have died off as a huge blundering $10k per table mess by
Microsoft. Or as a badly thought out Windows RT Surface tablet. I would have
liked another Surface table (one that actually got better support than a few
WPF/Windows widgets) but I'd say now Surface is a huge brand for Microsoft
with laptops/desktops.

~~~
dragonwriter
Sure, it's a broader brand, but one with less coherent meaning; the same that
would be the case with moving Pixelsense to a generic label for high-
reoslution displaces rather than a specific mark for displays with, among
other features, close-range camera-based object recognition.

In fact, there's a fairly close parallel between the broadening of the two
brands between the two since Surface was originally the brand for devices
incorporating Pixelsense, which was the brand attached to the combination of
particular UX technologies, including the camera-based object recognition.

~~~
WorldMaker
Especially here as you see the Dial incorporated into a Pixelsense
environment, it's a very interesting start to convergence between a lot of the
things explored and prototyped on the old Surface tables converging into the
new brand. A lot of the concepts of the Surface Studio feel very much like
more polished concepts "back" from the Surface table. The drafting desk form
factor of the Studio very much echoes the tables, only smaller and more
convenient.

------
guelo
I'm not sure why you need the world's thinnest LCD for a desktop, it's not
like you'll be mounting it on a wall or something.

By the way, that presenter is a pretty good actor, but he was trying way too
hard in a way that was distracting. The way he called out someone in the
audience at one point made it seem like he has standup comedy experience and
was trying to connect with the audience but it made no sense.

~~~
infodroid
> presenter is a pretty good actor

That's not an actor by the way. It's Panos Panay, who leads Microsoft's
devices team.

~~~
porkloin
I'm sure he speaks exactly like he did in this press conference when he's at
home with his family!

Acting != make believe. The dude was hamming it up to the point that he seemed
like a caricature of a product announcement.

------
randomsearch
Apple release iPhone 7, which is then eclipsed somewhat by Google Pixel.

MS announce this immediately before the MacBook announcement.

Conclusions are that (a) Apple are leaky and (b) rather than _avoid_ Apple
announcements, their competitors are now happy to compete with them. A bad
sign for Apple.

------
rubber_duck
Nvidia GTX 9xxM - from what I understand 10xx cards offer the biggest
difference in performance generation-to-generation seen in a while on the
mobile side - the 10xx mobile versions are basically identical to desktop
versions, 9xx are not even close - so why put last gen mobile tech in to a
high end professional desktop product ? Especially considering the likelihood
of VR proliferation in content creation - I couldn't justify buying this just
because of that considering the price tag.

~~~
Analemma_
I imagine the protracted development time is at fault. The guy from Penny
Arcade wrote a blog post where he said that he tried a prototype a year ago,
so presumably this has been in development for at least a year and a half.
Probably the 9xx was the best they had at the time and when the 10xx was
released they were too far along in development to swap it out. The next one
should have it though.

~~~
rubber_duck
>The next one should have it though.

Yea for me this is a skip until they update the hardware - it's just too
expensive to have to replace in a year.

------
alva
Surface Dial looks very, very cool. Innovation in the HCI space is greatly
welcome. Could not find any info on whether you can use 2 at the same time.
That could have some incredible applications!

~~~
slantyyz
Reminds me a lot of the Griffin PowerMate.

[https://griffintechnology.com/us/powermate](https://griffintechnology.com/us/powermate)

------
Osiris
The two things that Macbooks have had over Windows laptops, in my opinion, is
high resolution screens and a fantastic trackpad.

Windows laptops, even on the high end, still tend to screens no better than
1080p and crappy touchpads. My wife hates the touchpad so much she always uses
a mouse and has the trackpad disabled.

I just got an HP Elite x2, which is basically a Surface Pro and I really like
the pen and touch input. Apple pioneered touch on the iPhone, but continues to
refuse to add it to <del>OS X</del> macOS.

~~~
raesene6
So I've not tried enough windows touchpads to comment on that, but from what
I've seen there's quite a few Windows laptops with higher res screens than
1080p

e.g.

Dell XPS 13 - can have a 3200x1800 screen

Lenovo Carbon X1 - can have a 2560x1440 screen

HP Elitebook G3 - Can have a 2560x1440 screen

Microsoft surface book - 3000x2000 screen

Microsoft Surface Pro 4 - 2736 x 1824 screen

~~~
Osiris
I didn't mean to imply that there are none. I meant that they are incredibly
rare if you consider the number of Windows laptop models available. The vast
majority have either 1366x768 (low end laptops) or 1920x1080.

~~~
xenobioticants
But you can't compare Macbooks to $500 laptops. You need to compare them to
ultrabooks like the XPS 13, where you'll see that the gap isn't so big.

------
d3ckard
Great hardware, interface ideas look really interesting too. This could
actually be some vision that can get mainstream in the future.

I would seriously consider buying one, if not for one thing - OS. After
recently installing Windows on Bootcamp I can honestly say that I hate the
thing. It made me swear constantly for 15 minutes. I wish MS finally wrote a
new OS from scratch. They seem to have the right idea about where to go, but
Windows looks like a 40 year old after series of plastic surgeries - it's
supposed to look young and modern, but after you get passed the surface you
can see all those menus that are almost two decades old.

~~~
hifigi
Everything Windows is so entrenched in eating its own dogfood, so it probably
will never change. But what I wouldn't give for a ground-up POSIX-compliant
Windows OS. It's stupid, it's unrealistic, but it would be so, so awesome.

~~~
d3ckard
For me it's not even about being unix-like (though sounds nice). I would just
want them to get rid of all the legacy garbage and start from scratch. They
have nice design language, good programming environment, multiple platforms -
everything is dandy. The only problem is all the stuff left for compatibility
reasons.

------
justinsaccount
Would be nice to be able to buy that and the display separately.

~~~
thecolorblue
I agree. I got an all in one from dell 5 years ago and the only reason I keep
it around is that it has an hdmi in. If I could use the display without
booting up the computer, I would.

------
artursapek
The hardware quality gap between Windows machines and Macs is closing quickly
thanks to Microsoft's investments lately

~~~
tcskeptic
I own a Surface Book, have since a month after launch last year. For the first
six months it was so unreliable that I couldn't use it for anything. Crashes,
docking issues, external monitor issues, trackpad issues, sleep/wake issues,
just one damn thing after another. Things got better for a few months starting
in June and it became my primary personal device -- just had another bout of
frustration with a Windows update that could not complete but kept trying. I
love the hardware, the experience has been the worst I can remember. Don't
know if I have the patience for round two with a Surface Book 2

~~~
hifigi
This is eerily similar to my experience with Surface Pro 3. I absolutely love
the hardware, with the conditional statement that it doesn't work as
advertised most of the time. Forced updates broke functionality...and the
actual hardware failed: I got a touch dead-zone, but Microsoft gave me a
complete replacement after a year (the customer service was exemplary)

My Surface Pro 3 has never felt _reliable_. I can't count on it working the
same way one week to the next, which is unfortunate. I told a colleague this
morning that I was surprised that the last two machines I _really_ wanted were
both Microsoft hardware (Surface Book and Surface Studio).

But I also won't invest in new Surface hardware until I see lots of user
feedback.

------
PascLeRasc
[http://i.imgur.com/OZ3fLPZ.png](http://i.imgur.com/OZ3fLPZ.png)

What happened at 2:25-26 with a Mac named Studio Admin?

~~~
jxy
Good catch. Guess someone in PR likes to use mac?

------
jordache
this is true innovation.

mean while.. an OLED stripe.. aghem.. a Razer keyboard

~~~
Bytes
I agree, Microsoft has been really leading in innovation over the last few
years, with the surface book last year and the studio this year. I have been
really let down with Apple lately and their lack of willingness to innovate.
Hopefully we will see something truly innovative from Apple on Friday, but I
doubt it.

------
elorant
Well hell did froze. Who would have thought that we’d live the day that
Microsoft is launching a product specifically aimed at designers. This was
supposed to be Apple’s turf for decades.

------
schuke
Absolutely love all Panos Panay's demos. It's truly "Nobody Does It Better".

------
qihqi
As a software eng. this is not something I need. I have realized that because
computers are designed and programmed by engineers, we had what we need from
the very beginning. I am glad that now its designer's turn to get some tools.

~~~
criddell
The touch input I don't care about, but I definitely want that display. How
can anybody that works with text all day not want more pixels and sharper
text?

~~~
jack1243star
I actually like coding with bitmap fonts very much, which becomes too tiny if
shown on a high-dpi screen.

~~~
criddell
Doesn't that mean you just have to pick a larger size for that typeface or
turn on scaling? Now that I think about it, a 28" 4500x3000 display will
definitely have scaling turned on. Bitmap fonts should still work just fine,
right?

------
uniclaude
As with other recent Microsoft devices, I feel like:

\- This computer looks very good

\- The specs look more than decent (skylake, 32gb ram...)

...but

\- It's going to be poorly distributed (at least where I live, in Asia). I'm
not even expecting a synchronized worldwide release.

\- I'll have a hard time working in an Unix-friendly environment (the only
reason why I bought macs so far)

\- I wouldn't be surprised if it's insanely overpriced in Asia (like the
Surface Book is)

So I'm pretty sure I'll unfortunately have to pass, and so will most people I
work with.

The Microsoft buying experience is horrendous, and that's too bad now that
their OS sounds OK, and their hardware is probably the best PC hardware you
can get.

~~~
kybernetikos
> \- I'll have a hard time working in an Unix-friendly environment (the only
> reason why I bought macs so far)

The new Windows Subsystem for Linux is actually pretty good.

~~~
drewmate
I agree, I expected loads of compatibility issues and weird bugs, but I have
been pleasantly surprised. Integration with apt package management is solid
and has so far worked like a charm.

My only complaint is that I had to opt in to the bleeding edge test versions
of Windows 10, so my computers keep restarting themselves (often deleting
registry settings like keyboard remaps and custom global hotkeys in the
process) practically weekly. Anyone know of a way to keep my bash shell
without having to (practically) reinstall Windows every week?

~~~
nozzlegear
The latest update to the OS, Windows 10 Anniversary (I think?), includes the
WSL. It doesn't have some of the latest features that you'll find in the
insider preview, such as file watchers or launching Windows programs, but it's
personally got everything that I need to build JS apps.

------
protomyth
The video at [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-
stud...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-
studio/surface-studio) is a bit more informative and shows the Surface Dial in
action. I looks like the graphics from an old Blackberry this is the future
video[1]. Very cool, since Microsoft's version makes sense and Blackberry's
was confusing.

1)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1KLm4SErdQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1KLm4SErdQ)

~~~
revelation
That dial is bizarre. I have two hands, why would I replace one amazing hand
with a heavy, large screen obscuring piece of machined aluminum to do
something that my hand could already do?

~~~
WorldMaker
Haptic feedback. The implication in the videos is that people are often
manipulating the Dials with their off-hands without needing to look to back at
the Dial. It's like a well worn knob in your car you don't even have to glance
at while you are driving.

Also the videos show it both on and off the screen as users have different
needs to work with it.

------
danso
I probably won't buy one of these, just as I didn't buy the first iteration of
the Surface, but will definitely consider future iterations. If anything,
these products greatly boost my estimation of Microsoft as a brand. If I were
still more in my photography/design days, I'd have a hard time resisting
buying the Surface Studio (assuming its reviews aren't disastrous. For the
past decade I hadn't contemplated buying anything else besides Apple when it
comes to PCs. Microsoft has made a great case for how much innovation can
still be done in this field.

------
hatsunearu
I can't believe people are complaining about this thing! This is what the
Studio is up against: [https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Cintiq-27QHD-Creative-
Display/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Cintiq-27QHD-Creative-
Display/dp/B00R7QJAHY/)

Look at the damn thing, shitty (i presume) TFT display, no capacitive touch (i
think), and no computer attached.

This is a great value proposition to those kind of people. Though if this had
a gaming tier GPU and a bit better specs this would be literally _the_
machine.

------
AaronFriel
I would like to buy just the display, please. A 4500 x 3000 display? That
sounds amazing for writing code.

------
Roboprog
$3000? It had better be really something.

I wonder how well VST synth modules work on it? I like my iPad synth toys, but
they are not compatible with Mac.

------
brandon272
The feedback I am seeing for this product seems generally positive even with a
lot of delight from some corners. It will be interesting to compare the
feedback for this against tomorrow's feedback regarding the Mac announcement,
a pillar of which seems to be the bar they've added to the Macbook Pro.

------
dingo_bat
I don't care about anything else but how come today's high end computers start
out with 8gb of ram? That was probably enough 2 years ago. Now it's enough for
a net book. My phone has 4gb ram now. And they expect me to pay ~$2500 and get
8gb in a desktop?

------
rufugee
If it will run Linux, I'll buy one immediately...

~~~
blackoil
At minimum Ubuntu in Windows will be there.

~~~
pritambaral
That is not what a Linux user usually means when they say "If <device xyz>
will run Linux". Windows Subsystem for Linux doesn't support (officially, or
even cleanly) any graphical Linux apps, for one.

------
silverlight
If I could get this screen (along with it working with the pen and the other
accessories) but hook it up to my existing desktop I would be all over it.
Even if it was still $2,200. But a 980M is just not going to cut it as my
primary graphics card...

~~~
bluedino
[https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1113579-REG/wacom_dtk...](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1113579-REG/wacom_dtk_2700_cintiq_27qhd_27_interactive.html)

There you go

------
ralmidani
I can kind of understand the need for non-upgradable phones and laptops, since
they are more useful when they're thinner and lighter. But stationary devices
like this and Apple's iMac are unnecessarily wasteful.

------
fudgy73
I think I'm sold at 3:2 display.

------
gxs
As a side note, it's amazing to see that despite everyone ragging on apple and
claiming superiority to them, they all copy their advertising style.

The copy on the google pixel site and this site are both very obviously apple-
ish.

edit: down vote away, doesn't change the fact that these websites scream "we
want to be apple". Though I will say, the tides are changing for apple judging
by the amount of people hurt by this comment.

~~~
jordache
you mean the CGI flybys of the unit being virtually constructed? Yeah APple
pioneered that idea, I actually didn't like that part of the surface PC
promo.. Like who cares what the internal hinges look like!? They need to stop
doing close flybys of irrelevant subjects

The usability portions of the video were awesome though

~~~
mxfh
_Exploded views_ are not something Apple invented or pioneered, they surely
polished them to new marketing levels, yes. They are a staple for product
designers, so Apple's Jony might have pushed for their repeated use.

also there was this 2002 art installation
[http://www.influx.co.uk/blog/damian-ortegas-cosmic-
thing/](http://www.influx.co.uk/blog/damian-ortegas-cosmic-thing/)

~~~
jordache
i should have clarified, they hugely popularized their usage for marketing
towards consumers.

------
gshakir
$3K is very expensive. Looks like they are catering to the iMac market. It
should be interesting to compare with tomorrow iMac release lineup.

~~~
romanovcode
Well it is definitely better then current iMac. Will see tomorrow indeed.

------
codingdave
This concept seems to "re-surface" very couple years, and I just cannot get
over the first time I saw it... well, saw the mockery of it, at least:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY)

~~~
amlozano
It is all birthed from the desire of software engineers who play dungeons and
dragons and want a programmable gaming table.

When I interviewed at Microsoft I played with one of those tables, and there
was definitely a dice roller app.

No lie I would love to own one of those tables.

------
johnwheeler
It's hard following behind Steve Jobs and Apple, but I gotta give this guy
props on his salesmanship.

------
IanDrake
At the end I really expected him to unlatch the screen from the base and walk
away with it.

I have no good reason to expect that and I can't imagine that feature would be
very useful at this size, but I still expected it for some reason.

------
usaphp
Poor Cintiq is losing more and more market share with these sort of products.

~~~
j2bax
I haven't seen any sort of mass exodus from Wacom in the pro market yet. Wacom
makes highly specialized hardware for graphics professionals. I don't think
any fly by night piece of prosumer hardware is going to make them lose TOO
much sleep.

~~~
j2bax
Additionally, I think they'd likely be far more concerned if Apple released an
iMac like this (which I wish they would). Reason being, most graphics pro's
are already on iMacs and if they suddenly had the drawing capabilities and
form factor built into their go-to system, they might have less of a need for
an additional piece of hardware (Cintiq, Intuos). Apple is known to pay
attention to the kind of details artists care about in implementation.

------
Osiris
it's interesting that they didn't announce the actual screen resolution, just
the number of pixels. I found the answer in the ars article : 4500x3000

------
mars4rp
after reading couple of criticizing comments, I can't stop thinking how this
people would have reacted if Apple released exactly the same product!!!

~~~
mwfunk
Much more negatively, I would assume. I know I'm much more inclined to cut MS
some slack just because it's exciting to see them try new and interesting
things. They're still making the computer equivalent of concept cars here, so
some degree of high price/low volume/odd choices is to be expected.

------
ggregoire
The video does an amazing job, the product looks great.

I've never tried a Surface: do they have a special screen technology to avoid
the fingerprints?

~~~
kevingadd
The surface book picks up fingerprints pretty steadily, but it's not as bad as
other devices I've owned, and they're very easy to clean off.

------
novaleaf
Pretty. Going after the mac market for media creation is a smart move, as
that's a big driver of the mac's appeal over windows

------
PaulHoule
Microsoft is moving in on Apple's turf.

------
dmtroyer
But does it have a USB port?!

In all seriousness, pretty cool.

------
corv
Even the table they presented it on looks like it was lifted from an Apple
Store...

------
ommunist
Win10 is too clunky, otherwise the offer is very compelling. But not enough to
switch.

------
Keyframe
DCI-P3 monitor for that price, hot damn! I wonder if it's 100% coverage?

------
eeyepieinthesky
Dear Microsoft,

Could I just have that display please?

Thanks.

------
samfisher83
Is there a price anywhere on the page or am I just missing it?

Edit:

Its mentioned on other site 2999.

------
johnhenry
A desktop with a rear camera? Interesting...

------
jlebrech
now if I just code like in Shenzhen IO on it, i'd buy one.

------
zk00006
beautiful

~~~
zk00006
Downvoted for what?

~~~
ggregoire
I didn't downvote you but "beautiful" is not really a constructive comment. :)

~~~
zk00006
There is a difference between downvote and ignoring the comment.

------
afshinmeh
the website feels like someone has copy-pasted apple.com/imac and changed the
pictures using Microsoft Frontpage

~~~
pmelendez
I guess you are talking about the website? Because the product couldn't
possible be more different than the iMac, if any the product feels like an
iteration over the Dell XPS 27 line

~~~
afshinmeh
yeah. I haven't used and won't probably use this device but marketing wise,
it's exactly same as what Apple does. that makes sense to get downvotes though
since 99% of this thread's audiences are Microsoft zombies :)

~~~
pmelendez
I am writing this on a MacBook Pro so I don't describe myself as a Microsoft
zombie (I didn't downvote you either) and I find this machine way more
appealing than an iMac.

I have a marketing filter in my mind so I couldn't care less about the design
of the website.

~~~
afshinmeh
true, a friend of mine is using Surface 4 and he's really happy. as I said,
I'm not sure how good or bad this device is but at least marketing wise, they
are doing exactly same as Apple.

------
dorianm
They can do all the marketing they want, I just feel like this is gonna be the
buggiest thing I ever used if I tried it.

~~~
smrtinsert
How's that? I tried an surface pro a while ago and the touch screen worked
fine. They had some issues to work around scaling, but iirc those are mostly
sorted out.

Frankly it looks amazing.

~~~
komali2
I'm an avid surface user, which doesn't make sense because 90% of my tweet
history is me yelling at Microsoft that a windows update is preventing me from
giving a presentation, again.

So, as much as I love the platform, the issues for me are

1\. Windows 10 updates are not sane. They do not schedule properly, and do not
try to tell me otherwise because I have invested probably 40 hours total at
this point trying to sanely schedule them. If you disable them, your build of
Windows will go out of date and your machine will reset randomly until you
turn them back on. Also, on a surface pro, updates take ~30 minutes to 6
hours. I joke not. So result: I'll roll into work at 8, have a presentation at
9, pop open the machine, and see "windows is configuring your update.... 39%"
and know that I won't be working on that machine until after lunch. Maybe.

2\. Random, impossible to track, unrelated bugs. Plugging in a second monitor
causes all sorts of weirdness. It gets stuck in tablet mode. It'll refuse to
go into tablet mode. The task bar will refuse to go away in fullscreen mode
for some apps until a reset. It'll forget my office app credentials. Onenote
will crash a hundred times. It'll soft-eject the microSD card randomly, but
usually in the middle of a file transfer. Keyboard won't be recognized. Pen
tip will fall out and they'll charge you 12 bucks for a replacement pack with
3 inside, 2 of which you'll instantly use.

I love the surface because it _perfectly_ fits my needs, but damn do I also
hate it.

------
KayL
It looks great!! But no ethernet port, only 4 USB3. Absolutely not enough for
a high-end PC user. It's a bit pricey. Looking forward to see they sell the
display apart.

~~~
nkw
It has an ethernet port:

[http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/26/13380462/m...](http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/26/13380462/microsoft-
surface-studio-pc-computer-announced-features-price-release-date)
[http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/10/microsoft-
announces-s...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/10/microsoft-announces-
surface-studio-all-in-one-touchscreen-pc/)

~~~
protomyth
Microsoft's official tech spec page: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-stud...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-studio/tech-specs)

    
    
      Connections & expansions	
      4 x USB 3.0 (one high power port)
      Full-size SD ™ card reader (SDXC) compatible
      Mini DisplayPort
      Headset jack
      Compatible with Surface Dial on-screen interaction*
      1 Gigabit Ethernet port

~~~
KayL
Thanks. Too bad it doesn't show on this page:
[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/product...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.5074015900)

~~~
canucker2016
If you look at the "Compare Surface Models" section below the "Tech Specs"
section, you'll see the following listed under Surface Studio in the last
group titled Ports:

    
    
      Four full-size USB 3.0
      Ultra-High Speed Full-size SD card reader
      Headset jack
      Mini Displayport
      Ethernet

~~~
KayL
they just added back.

------
bitmapbrother
$3000 for a machine with anemic specs is going to be a tough sell. Who exactly
is this computer for? As for that puck device - I couldn't help but laugh when
the presenter, dressed in all black as if attending a funeral, used it to
emphasize how passionate his scribbles were on a document. Who does that? Who
would ever do that? And more importantly, who ever thought this would be
something you would even want to devote time to demo?

------
math0ne
I don't understand who this product is for, someone who is not a PC enthusiast
but has 3000$ to spend on a PC? I guess the target audience is like high end
design studios that need to outfit their stylish new office with matching
computers that no one will ever use because all the real work happens at home
on people's macbooks at home.

That said I love the dial thingy, I think it has some great ideas behind it
and is potentially also a nod to the incredibly popular Griffin powermate
which I believe is still a popular product.

~~~
fsloth
The target market is not a PC enthusiasts but creative professionals.

~~~
slantyyz
>> The target market is not a PC enthusiasts but creative professionals.

I would also add that another target market is other Windows PC makers.

In the same way that the Surface and Surface Book showed what touch-based
Windows devices could be, I imagine that Lenovo, Dell etc. will probably get
some inspiration from this product and produce their own variants for a bunch
of different market segments.

------
sergiotapia
A shame the OS is just terrible. Windows 10 is so hostile to me as a user,
constantly pestering me about updates or missing DLL files. Bleh. I installed
Plex in January, today after not booting my machine for about a month, I
wanted to watch a video and got some random DLL missing.

How a DLL can go missing while the box is turned off is a mystery to me, but
there you go. I don't trust my Windows box.

I trust my iMac much much more.

~~~
jsafari
The last time I had such an issue with my (fleet of) Windows machines goes
back to XP days.

~~~
sergiotapia
Cool, not my experience though.

