
Turning the Puzzle Sideways: Sleep, Diet and the Brain-Gut Connection - dsr12
http://cowboy.vc/blog/?p=158
======
iamben
I've been on a ketogenic diet for a year now and sleep has been the biggest
thing. I was a light, restless sleeper and I noticed very quickly how how much
better my sleep got. I'd fall asleep quicker and it feels (and tracks) deeper.
I don't wake as much, sweat nearly as much when I sleep and wake up feeling
far more rested.

Sleep aside, I don't sweat nearly as much during the day and I've shaken
almost most all the IBS related problems I had. Feels a bit like a miracle.
Trouble is, I wish (much like the article) I could understand exactly what it
was that I cut out that made the biggest difference. Bread? Alliums? Fructose?

I guess the only way would be to reintroduce things slowly and test, or revert
back to a carb heavy diet and remove stuff one by one... But when you're
(finally) feeling great you don't want to mess it up :-/

~~~
Aromasin
I've found with me that, after trying keto for ages and loving how I felt but
hating the diet itself, I managed to pin point the issue down to grains. Any
form of grain, be it rice, wheat, barley, oats etc, all seemed to mess me up
big style. I'n now on a diet of mostly fruit, nuts, beans, seeds and tubers
and I'm better than I was on keto on almost every measurable factor. I think
cutting out the carbs initially improves the lives of most people because it's
a group of food that contains the biggest offenders in terms of IBS related
trigger, but it's rarely carbohydrate in itself.

In terms of reintroducing foods, don't go back to carbs and cut back! You're
just setting yourself up to fail. Just reintroduce carbs slowly up. Start with
tubers and root veg, as from what I've read they're often the easiest in terms
of digestion. Then move on to fruits, then nuts, then seeds, then finish with
grains. It could well be you're gluten intolerant so there are only a few
types of grain you're sensitive to.

~~~
peteretep
It's a shame there's so much pseudo-science around food intolerances, as I'd
basically dismissed out of hand that I might be intolerant to some foods.

As part of a separate diet, it's become clear to me that bread caused the
life-long indigestion I've suffered, and that eggs were causing my skin to be
bad, neither of which were links I'd made before.

Also currently on a diet that isn't keto -- I'm eating a lot of vegetables,
and the occasional rice dish, and not being careful with sugar in sauces --
but lacks white carbs, and getting many of the benefits people who are on keto
diets are claiming. As per the article, my sleep is massively improved,
largely because I've stopped getting up in the night 20 times to pee.

~~~
Aromasin
I advise all my friends to do a "one food and work up" diet. I had massive
problems with sleep, my skin, my bowel movements, general fatigue, long-onset
DOMS after working out - the list goes on. These are completely gone now I
pin-pointed the issue. I cut back everything, and added things one ingredient
at a time. I started with only root veg, then added legumes, then brassicaceae
veg (kale, cauliflower, broccoli etc.) That covered all my nutritional needs
bar B12, which I supplement. From there, I've slowly added one more food every
couple of week.

My only guess is that I have a histamine response to some kind of compound
found in grains and certain types of spices. The body is a strange
machination. Honestly, doing the reduction diet was the best thing I've ever
done. If you could make a medication that brought me from how I felt 3 years
ago to where I am now, you'd be worth more than Bezos.

~~~
skrebbel
My wife had struggles very similar to yours. She had herself tested for a
super broad range of allergies and intolerances (this wasn't cheap) and found
that her histamine levels were 20x the upper bound of "normal". This was in a
time when eating a single chocolate chip cookie could knock her out for days.

She then did an elimination diet much like yours (but without the keto - she
just cut out anything that either is high in histamine or encourages histamine
production in the body). She's a different person now. Her gut mostly
recovered in the sense that the same cookie would now make her feel bad for a
few hours and sometimes not even that. It's great.

Just in case it interests someone, she maintains a food blog particular for
histamine intolerant people at
[https://histaminefriendlykitchen.com/](https://histaminefriendlykitchen.com/)

~~~
copperx
It makes sense that histamine messes with sleep. The drug modafinil (Provigil,
Nuvigil) is a pro-histamine and considered a nootropic because it reduces
sleepiness and even increases focus.

I wonder, can one use a pro-histamine food as a nootropic?

------
devilmoon
Something to consider when talking about anything wheat/gluten related is that
SO many people nowadays are starting to show signs of gluten
intolerance/allergy and this might be due to glyphosate rather than the gluten
itself. I come from Italy and trust me when I tell you that everyone and their
uncles eat a diet that is 99% gluten-based, however until a few years ago
nobody ever had problems with it. I am starting to truly believe that we are
slowly poisoning ourselves without realising it and then blaming the wrong
culprits for it.

~~~
wtdata
The reason so many people are showing a gluten allergy/intolerance is a fad
propagated by social media.

It has nothing to do with evolution - obviously - since it doesn't work in
such a small time frame, and it has nothing to do with glyphosate, since
glyphosate is used in most of the other (gluten free) crops as well.

~~~
devilmoon
I used to think like you wrt the social media conditioning, however now that
I've experienced IBS on myself I changed my outlook on it. I am sure that
there are people who eat specific diets just because it is a fad and they get
conditioned into it by their social circles or influencers they follow,
however I am also now quite sure that some of these conditions are very real
and people suffer quite a lot because of it (and not necessarily in a physical
way but through a very high psychological burden also).

I can tell you from my personal experience (YMMV etc.) that I was able to eat
anything and everything without a single problem whatsoever until my early
twenties. I was the type of person to eat a kebab at 4am and then go straight
to bed and sleep like a baby, now even thinking of doing something like that
makes me feel sick. Some of it might be due to aging, certainly, and the
doctors I've spoken to have also suggested that increased level of stress
might've had something to do with it (which ties in nicely with the gut-brain
link), but still what I experienced is that from a certain point forward I
wasn't able to eat most foods anymore without feeling really sick (and this
has been diagnosed as being IBS, which is truly just a catch-all for
gastroenterologists when they don't know what the fuck is causing you
problems). From my experience going forward I don't think that it's triggered
by very specific foods or stress by themselves, and I've come to the
conclusion that it must've been something systemic that I did that led to this
outcome (i.e., eat small amounts of glyphosate every day multiple times a day
for years).

I think we should really take better care of ourselves and at least explore
these potential risks very carefully before dismissing everything as a social
media fad / zoomer thing

~~~
davemp
Never underestimate/write-off the placebo effect.

~~~
acct1771
Never write off going to Europe and eating their food for a few weeks and
trying to figure out for months why your chronic skin conditions/etc go away,
only to be told the exact stuff you're reading in these threads.

------
semerda
So much keto talk here yet no one mentions blood markers or LDL (bad
cholesterol). What ever happened to good'ol'data approach?

It's pretty obvious that altering ones diet can have profound effects. But a
scientific approach to diet is a far safer approach. Ever tried to lower your
bad cholesterol?

So a group of friends who are data obsessed tried keto after another group of
friends raved on about it like it was a sign from above. The group that took a
scientific approach getting blood work before and after noticed their LDLs
shoot through the roof. Before keto: LDL 70. After 4 months on keto LDL 190.
That's well above the Sutter health recommended LDL 120. Even 120 is well
above what heart surgeons recommend to avoid cholesterol in your arteries: LDL
below 70.

The other group that raved on about keto claimed to have done blood work but
never shared the numbers. They said they felt great etc.. no s __t, the brain
craves fats. You will feel better. You can triple your fish oil intake and
experience some of that natural high for those daring.

Anyways some food for thought.

~~~
JanSt
If you want to lower your LDL I'll advice you to eat nothing but white bread
with slices of highly processed meat for a week. Will lower your HDL and
increase Trigs too, but if LDL is your primary concern: Go for it.

Here is the thing: it's not as easy as LDL = BAD. For older people higher LDL
is actually protective, for women there seems to be nearly no effect
whatsoever. Don't be fooled by simple answers.

~~~
spraak
> For older people higher LDL is actually protective, for women there seems to
> be nearly no effect whatsoever. Don't be fooled by simple answers.

Your last statement is in direct contradiction with all of your previous
simple answers. Where is there evidence of the protective effect of LDL?

~~~
JanSt
How so? LDL can be a marker of bad health, but is not so by any means in all
cases.

Relevant study:
[https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401](https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401)

~~~
spraak
That study is problematic: [https://www.cebm.net/2016/06/cebm-response-lack-
association-...](https://www.cebm.net/2016/06/cebm-response-lack-association-
inverse-association-low-density-lipoprotein-cholesterol-mortality-elderly-
systematic-review-post-publication-pee/)

And just one? Lots of studies showing the opposite.

~~~
JanSt
I'm not here to dig up all studies showing those results. Here is (probably
the best) one. The MCE was orignally designed to show the opposite:

[https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i1246](https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i1246)

------
rofo1
I've had my share of sleep problems in the past. Fixed it by reading "Why We
Sleep" and "Circadian Code" and borrowing a lot of ideas and suggestions
there.

I immediately gave up coffee, at first, a long with a bunch of other things
(details at [0]).

Anyway, recently I started experimenting with coffee again and it turns out it
didn't have any impact on my sleep, whatsoever. I started drinking coffee
again (albeit, little less than what I drank before) and I still sleep 8+
hours daily.

I eat very cleanly, in general, and exercise daily.

I think that trying to fit my last meal 4-5 hours before sleeping has had the
biggest impact on my sleep!

It's extremely important for your physical and mental health to eat clean,
sleep well (8+ hours minimum) and exercise (strength training preferred).
Optionally try to include time restriction on the eating window (say, eat
within 8 hours period in each 24 hours). That's all there is to it, really.
The rest is probably genetic lottery.

[0] -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17639429](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17639429)
(old comment of mine)

~~~
iamben
I loved "Why We Sleep" (was a HN recommendation, I think!). One of my biggest
takeaways was learning to not feel guilty about it. I think the constant
'hustle mentality' ends up making a lot of this community (in particular)
demonise sleep in an "I'll sleep when I'm dead" and "if I'm not working 22
hours a day I'm being out hustled!" When I 'forgave' myself for sleeping
(which sounds mental, but bear with) and started to get a consistent 7.5 hours
a day, I found that I was just working _better_. Smarter not harder, I guess?
Focussed work is definitely > unfocussed work!

~~~
tomp
Same here. I have a friend who has limitless energy - he can party until 5pm,
sleep for 2 hours, then go skiing the next day. All my youth I've felt guily
about not being able to do this.

Recently I've simply accepted that my body needs more sleep, and I feel better
if I satisfy this need, so I try to sleep more. I still struggle to go to be
(the internet is just _so interesting_!) but at least I don't feel guilty
anymore.

------
sz4kerto
I developed a pretty bad pollen allergy around the age of 30. Every spring I
had to take antihistamines that helped a bit (not completely), but they made
me either anxious or sleepy.

Then just for fun I made a bet with a friend of mine -- I tried to do a half-
distance amateur tri race (1.9k swim, 90k cycle, 21k running) without any carb
intake. So I dramatically decreased my carb intake for 3 months or so from
February to May.

My allergy has completely disappeared and didn't come back for 2 years
(despite me having switched back to eating carbs). Then it came back, and I
cut back on carbs again. It subsided.

Very strange.

The problem is that I can't figure out what is helping. Carbs in general?
Gluten? Something else? I don't know because it takes 1-2 weeks at least
before the effects kick in, so I can't just simply A/B test.

~~~
coldtea
1/2 weeks seems trivial to A/B test.

Just eat no gluten but still carbs for 2 weeks, see what happens, and then all
carbs again.

~~~
sz4kerto
2 weeks of a full-on allergy is really bad, and it also affected by other
stuff (like rain, etc.) It's hard to control.

------
jimnotgym
I'm interested in this subject. I recently read 'Why We Sleep' and I have
started a revolution of getting enough quality sleep, and it has been life
changing. I recommend this to everyone.

One thing that offended the reading voice in my head was the careless grammar
in the article. I'm not a stickler, but starting sentences with 'am' rather
than 'I am', for instance, makes the article sound rushed.

~~~
sametmax
Funny like eat well, sleep enough and get exercice is getting rediscovered
again and again.

~~~
randomsearch
I think that _is_ strange. Why aren’t we told this by our family, by our
teachers, by society? Probably the most important thing you do to improve your
health.

~~~
radiator
We are being told about it, but it is considered old-fashioned.

Also, when you are young, the effects of breaking those rules are less severe.
But then, gradually and slowly, you are not so young anymore.

~~~
keerthiko
It's considered old-fashioned because what we're told about tends to be
unsubstantiated pseudo science as often as not, with lots of contradictory
advice and weak explanations.

I think everyone knows "quality food, exercise and sleep is good for you", but
noone knows what that _is_ for everyone. It varies from person to person,
circumstance to circumstance, and the effects (good or bad) are hard to
observe and correlate to choices, so it's hard to justify or blame them
accurately. Especially when the accepted "facts" keep flip-flopping every 5-10
years (fats are bad! fats are good! sugar is bad! sugar is good! phasic sleep
is good! no, you should sleep 8 hours in one go! you should always sleep in
the middle of the night! no, it's possible daytime sleep is better for you!)
At some point, it feels like if you just make random lifestyle choices, even a
broken clock will be right twice a day?

Nutrition and sleep science are both still very loosey-goosey and the
surprising thing to me is that we don't invest in significantly more in-depth
research to find better metrics and measurements and baseline principles to
teach kids.

~~~
buzzerbetrayed
I think you explained the problem perfectly.

I would pay someone good money if they could just tell me what "quality food,
exercise, and sleep is good for you" meant in excruciating detail. If I knew
exactly what I could eat and how I could work out to get the most health
benefits it would make such a huge difference. Instead I feel like there are a
thousand different opinions out there, all backed by a thousand different (and
usually flawed) studies. As someone who loves things that are backed by
science, it frustrates me that I can't find the "right" answer (at least for
the average person).

And maybe the answer is out there but I just don't know where to look. If so,
please advise.

------
kitchenfloor
Doing keto for several years on and off, longest time was two years. While
being on keto is absolutely recommended, I haven't seen signifcant impact on
sleep quality.

Being on keto reduces your general anxiety. Or being on carbs makes you much
more anxious and a doubting person. Maybe there is a small relation: Less
anxiety leads to better sleep. In my case, I needed to fix my sleep with other
things, keto didn't help there.

OT: I think that from a specific age (mid 30ies+) one cannot just eat carbs
and gluten like they did when they were young. At a higher age carbs impact
you much more. People get bloated and age way quicker. You see 'high carb'
written in their face.

OT2: Not entirely sure if this post's actual goal is promoting the mentioned
carb tracker app.

OT3: Maybe a bit extreme but very true is a quote by Talib: 'The three most
harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly salary'

~~~
blanche_
Maybe it is just higher fat content? I mean fat got a lot of bad rep and
people may not be consuming enough healthy fats.

------
peteretep
If there's anything I'm getting from these comments is that everyone seems to
have all sorts of different reactions, and we should all be much more
aggressive about randomly experimenting with different diets

~~~
Spearchucker
Clearly. And surprised at how many different types of food seem to affect so
many adversely. I'm soooo lucky in that I've been able to eat anything and
drink anything all my life without having sleep or any other problems (48 now,
weigh 68kg, sleep like a champ, eat when I'm hungry and drink when I'm
thirsty).

------
RickJWagner
'Turn the puzzle sideways', what a great phrase. I'm going to try to remember
that one. Seems it'll help get past roadblocks sometimes.

------
appleflaxen
How does the analogy in the title have any bearing on the anecdote shared by
the author? It's not as if he adopted a different perspective and thereby
gained intuition... instead, he stumbled upon something that he attributes
credit for fixing his problem, then backed into a justification.

The anecdote of "ketogenic diet really helped my sleep" seems worth sharing.
Everything else feels tacked on.

------
avichalp
I am having a similar experience these days. As I am delving more into this
topic here I logged some things from last month:
[http://avichalp.me/2019/04/06/debugging-
sleep.html](http://avichalp.me/2019/04/06/debugging-sleep.html)

------
1024core
As a vegetarian, I was surprised to see beans and legumes in the "foods to
avoid" section of the Keto Diet 101 page:
[https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/ketogenic-
diet-101](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/ketogenic-diet-101)

So what are my options?

~~~
acuozzo
> So what are my options?

Scroll down a bit further on that page until you hit the "Foods to Eat"
section and remove from it anything you refuse to eat.

------
poseid
started to feel changes in sleep patterns at the end of my 30ies as well...
from what i know my eating patterns did not change over the past 15-20 years
so much. what are scientific papers on the relation between sleep and
nutrition? might be interesting to learn more on this for the future.

~~~
coldtea
> _started to feel changes in sleep patterns at the end of my 30ies as well...
> from what i know my eating patterns did not change over the past 15-20 years
> so much._

No, but your body's abilities and stamina changed a lot...

------
foamclutching
>Amazingly, when the gut microbes from obese mice are transplanted into thin
mice, with no change in diet, thin mice become fat!

I couldn't believe this, and I was so thankful for the link! Now I'll watch
the Ted video and keep reading the other article.

------
kpU8efre7r
Kind of unrelated but why are fad diets promoted so much on this site?

~~~
dredmorbius
Diet is one of several extremely strong social signalling mechanisms.

[https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/62uroa/clothin...](https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/62uroa/clothing_music_diets_art_management_theory_fad_as/)

Subsequent to writing above, I found, related:

"A Theory of Fads, Fashion, Custom, and Cultural Change as Informational
Cascades"

Sushil Bikhchandani, David Hirshleifer, and Ivo Welch University of
California, Los Angeles

Abs: An informational cascade occurs when it is optimal for an individual,
having observed the actions of those ahead of him, to follow the behavior of
the preceding individual without regard to his own information. We argue that
localized conformity of behavior and the fragility of mass behaviors can be
explained by informational cascades.

Journal of Political Economy, 1992, vol. 100, no. 5

[https://www.jstor.org/stable/2138632](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2138632)

[http://snap.stanford.edu/class/cs224w-readings/bikhchandani9...](http://snap.stanford.edu/class/cs224w-readings/bikhchandani92fads.pdf)

------
mapcars
>Foods to Avoid >Fruit: All fruit, except small portions of berries like
strawberries

>Foods to Eat >Meat: Red meat, steak, ham, sausage, bacon, chicken and turkey

Thank you but no, whoever made this diet doesn't know much about healthy food.

~~~
_up
You won't find any centenarians that eat vegan. India is one of the countries
with the highest diabetes numbers and vegan. Japan, on the other hand, has the
most centenarian and they eat basically unprocessed food and low carb.

~~~
bubblewrap
Absolutely untrue. Adventists of the 7th day eat vegan afaik, and people in
Okinawa ate very little meat. Both groups are famous for producing more
centenarians than the average (global) population.

[https://www.seventhdayadventistdiet.com/](https://www.seventhdayadventistdiet.com/)

