
Dan Benjamin: Regarding The Talk Show - ehed
http://5by5.tv/specials/6
======
rkudeshi
Summary for anyone who can't listen:

* Dan says John emailed him and just said it was time to move on and try something new. Dan says he has total respect and understanding for that.

* Dan says he thought if they weren't doing the show anymore, they would retire it together. Surprised and disappointed that John's doing the show on his own and re-using the name.

* Dan wishes they could have done one last episode to reminisce (120 previous episodes) and to thank the fans.

* Dan encourages fans to listen to the new show at muleradio.net.

* No other sordid details, just some personal anecdotes.

I've never listened to any 5by5 podcasts on 5by5, but Dan Benjamin comes
across in this audio clip as a total class act.

~~~
georgespencer
Like everyone is saying, Dan comes across really well in this. I don't expect
JG will ever give us his take.

RE: never listening to any 5by5 podcasts–I listened to The Talk Show a few
times. Maybe it's because I'm used to the dogma of professional broadcasting,
but I don't think you've missed out unless you like hearing a couple of guys
pause a hell of a lot during an awkward conversation. Almost every episode I
heard started with an entirely charmless "Uh, hello?" "Uh is this on?"
scenario.

I guess part of the appeal was that it was folksy and just a conversation.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
I like all the people on the 5by5 podcasts but this is exactly why I don't
listen to them.

I wish instead of doing 1 hour 15, they'd do 15 minutes planning, 15 minutes
editing and a 45 minute show. There's plenty of good material there, I just
feel it gets drowned out.

~~~
pooriaazimi
John Siracusa ('Hypercritical'[1]) spends 5-7 hours a week researching, 1 hour
reading numerous responds, 50 minutes in each show responding to follow-ups
and spends the remainder of each show (that are between 1h45m-2h30m) on a new
topic (in a highly structured way). Give hypercritical a shot (you can start
by listening to episodes 42[2] _(18 minutes in)_ and 43[3]) that discusses
Job's biography.

[1]: <http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/>

[2]: <http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42>

[3]: <http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43>

~~~
smackfu
The funny thing is that most of the complaints I've heard about the show are
about how pointless the follow-up responses are. Maybe he should mix up the
format to put the new topic first.

------
filmgirlcw
Disclosure: Dan is my friend. He's actually one of my best friends. I know far
more about this situation than most, I am not unbiased.

I love Dan for doing this. I think it was the right way to address listeners
and also express himself on the topic.

John doesn't need to give his take if he doesn't want to -- and I don't think
anyone would expect him to.

People do expect more transparency with Dan, and that's why, however
uncomfortable this might have been to discuss, I'm glad Dan took the time to
do.

In my professional life, I spend a lot of time analyzing, criticizing and
discussing various PR maneuvers of major companies and brands. To me, it's
always telling to see how a company or brand deals with a difficult situation.

I think Dan's approach here (and again, I'm totally biased -- though I try to
look at this objectively and out of the lens of "my friend") was a great
example of how to deal with a private business situation that becomes public.

No one is a villain here. No one did anything wrong. But I'm glad Dan got a
chance to talk to his listeners. It's why I listen.

Well done Dan.

~~~
anon808
I think this private situation only became public when dan mentioned it? if it
truely is private why not have that trump whatever public business
expectations there are. if it's private, it's private. my personal taste is
not to use private situations as pr.

~~~
yojimbo311
I'm going to have to disagree. It is cynical at best to assume that this
situation is being used as PR. Beyond disappointment that the show will not
continue as it was, Dan has not exposed his personal feelings on the matter or
any private details that should otherwise remain private. There is nothing
about switching hosts in a public podcast/show/presentation/etc. that can be
considered truly private and deserving of no attention whatsoever. As a
listener I found the switch jarring, confusing and leaving lots of questions.
Do listeners deserve the intimate details? Of course not, but no one is
offering those. All Dan offered was an answer to the question listener's had
of "What happened to Dan?", 1/2 of "The Talk Show". It wasn't just JG's show
and to offer nothing to the listeners to explain a shift like this leaves lots
of questions. The issue became public when JG published the first podcast on
Mule with no mention of what Dan's continued involvement might be. Dan had
nothing to do with making that issue public, he's merely provided a polite and
respectful explanation so everyone can go about their business and not worry
about it anymore.

As listeners we are not "entitled" to be treated with respect, but it sure
goes a long way in keeping us as listeners and keeping listeners in the loop
of major shifts in the show is what I would call respectful. The show on Mule
is a different show now, JG is trying to own it and do his own thing with it
and there is nothing to criticize there, but it does show a lack of respect
for the existing listeners to not at least hint at the changes and give the
other host a chance to sign off for the listeners and close the loop. It's not
right or wrong, it's simply a choice, just like the choice we make to listen
or to leave comments etc.

I am grateful to Dan for filling in the blanks so listeners are no longer
distracted by it. I think it's critical to note that he did a masterful job in
phrasing it so as not to generate any animosity on the part of the listeners
(or between himself and JG) and that's probably the most important aspect of
what makes what he did "respectable" versus something to criticize and/or
dismiss as a PR stunt.

~~~
anon808
public: the show moved, fair game

private: what the partners said or didn't say to each other, dynamics of their
relationship

good taste is to use all public info as pr, bad taste use private info as pr.

I listened to dan's special again, something just doesn't sound right about
it. he wishes john good luck but then implicitly blame's john for not doing
one last goodbye show. this is where the (implied) private stuff comes in, who
knows why john didn't want to do one last show, maybe john's just an asshole,
maybe dan was an asshole and john doesn't want to see him, maybe they're both
assholes, who knows. i don't, that's private. so dan should've kept those
speculations out of the public ears, but instead he frames john as the guy who
didn't feel like he owed it to the fans to have one last show, when the reason
for that is probably private. sorry, something just doesn't sit well with me
about that.

~~~
dereg
Brah, chill out. It sounds like you have an axe to grind with Dan. You're
insinuating that "PR" is bad. His statement is not inconsistent with anything
that Dan has done in the past. He values his relationship with his listeners,
what's wrong with that? Do you truly believe a buddhist would go out and turn
this incident into a stunt?

------
54mf
I've had this nagging feeling for a while that Gruber, while a superb writer,
is probably insufferable in real life. That particular kind of nerd that's
dangerously smart, always right about whatever they're saying, and just
miserable to be around.

I don't want to read in to things (any more than I already am, I guess,) but
it sure feels like Gruber handled this poorly. For someone running a site
supported nearly entirely by reader contributions and pageviews, it would have
been a little more respectable to handle this whole ordeal like a grown-up
instead of playing the "I can do what I want, I don't owe you anything, get a
life already" card so heavily.

------
orta
Summary: Dan used to listen to podcasts daily, used to get a real feel for the
people he was listening too. So he thinks it's a bit of a shame they can't
even do a "one last show." But he wishes all the best.

I love listening to 5by5 episodes. Mainly the siracusa one, and at some point
I'll check out Grubers new podcast. My thoughts are that losing Dan from the
show is a negative, he's a great speaker with a soothing voice and I enjoy the
smalltalk he makes.

~~~
ehed
It's really going to be a different show now. But John clearly has a
completely refreshed voice in the new series, it seems like the move is going
to be a net gain for everyone. Many others have pointed out that TTS on 5by5
has not been the same recently. I look forward to listening to the new TTS
even though it won't be the same.

~~~
alphang
Agreed, I actually really enjoy Gruber's tone on the new show.

I'd guess a part of this may be that Gruber wants an editorial reboot with the
new show, so that he has more control and it directly complements Daring
Fireball (Note the new description: "Sort of like the director's commentary
track for Daring Fireball.") I actually look forward to it.

Dan's a good host on other shows, and a class act, but I've felt that he and
Gruber lacked chemistry for a long time.

------
jakemcgraw
When Gruber said "Readability is run by scumbags" [1] for hijacking referral
links, I'd say right back at you, John Gruber, you're a scumbag for hijacking
the name of the show and exiting with a total lack of class.

I hope the fluffing [2] Mike Monteiro [3] gave you was worth tossing Dan and
5by5 under the bus.

[1]: <http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/03/30/readability>

[2]: <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fluffing>

[3]: <http://twitter.com/mike_wtf>

~~~
evan_
Mike Monteiro is actually <https://twitter.com/#!/mike_ftw> \- FTW, not WTF.
(he's got a fairly NSFW twitter background incidentally)

~~~
jakemcgraw
total subconscience slip

------
miketucker
Striking juxtaposition of this statement to the "new" Talk Show,
(<http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/1/>) in which Gruber makes zero mention of
Dan or his decision to move on, and instead chooses to start things off
talking about.. baseball.

~~~
gaving
I don't think that's fair since neither party had said anything about the
split before that went live.

Now that Dan's expressed his thoughts, I wonder if John will do the same.

~~~
thomasjoulin
Nonetheless Gruber comes out as a jerk... If it was indeed his decision, he
should have handled it a little better with Benjamin (telling him sooner,
organizing a last show, not reusing the TTS name on mule...), and even if one
can argue that he doesn't owe the listener anything, an explanation in the
introduction of the new show would have made a good segue...

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
I find it surprising that so many people are willing to say that Gruber has
acted like a jerk.

If anyone has the right to be pissed it'd Dan, yet he seems to be fine (if
disappointed) with what's happened. If he's not calling Gruber a jerk I think
the rest of us should take our lead there - after all, he knows more than any
of us and is personally involved in the whole thing.

~~~
thomasjoulin
Well, I'm certainly not as classy as Dan, kudos to him. But I don't see the
point of hiding my disappointment just because I don't know them personally.
As Dan said, when you listen to people on the radio every week, you feel close
to them. The way it was handled lacked class. Calling Gruber a jerk is just an
habit of exaggerating thing on the Internet I guess... We're not entitled to
an explanation or a goodbye, but that's the difference between classy a douchy
IMO.

------
chmars
'My friend John Gruber' etc. without any restriction – I'm very happy to hear
that at least Dan Benjamin still sees John Gruber as a friend.

Dan Benjamin has really class, even in a situation that can't be easy for him.

------
da_n
I give Dan Benjamin huge respect for doing this, he certainly didn't have any
obligation to do so. Gruber and Mike Monteiro on the other hand have basically
given the audience a massive fuck you. I am not really surprised by that but
it is a disappointment and has put me off checking out the new Talk Show going
forward, or indeed any Mule Radio podcasts. Dan will be fine anyway, 5by5 has
some of the best shows on the internet.

------
chadk
I really enjoyed his bit about how listeners become (unidirectional) "friends"
with the hosts that they spend so much time listening too. Dan really
understands the sense of loss that the fans feel over not being informed, and
I am glad he broached that topic. Of course, this doesn't justify some of the
showings of massive entitlement on Twitter etc. But I am glad he recognized
the emotional investment of the fans.

------
mustpax
Gruber is taking a page out of the Apple PR book by not saying anything,
unless there is something good to be said. This may help move the news cycle
along but it's still no way to treat a friend.

~~~
mturmon
He's not exactly "not saying anything". The top link on DF ("Why wasn't I
consulted", a 16-month old piece) could be interpreted as a reply.

Follow the attribution link and read: "Apropos of nothing. Ahem."

~~~
rjj
Excellent point. The title of the article which he craftily links to is "The
Odd World of Digital Groupies". It's 2.5 years old and has the bolded subtitle
" Obsessed fans spend hours online trying to talk to their rock gods—and
sometimes, the efforts turn toxic. Doree Shafrir goes inside the bizarre world
of extreme internet fandom."

~~~
protomyth
When you live your life off the advertising dollars directed at your audience,
it seems like an odd way of commentary.

~~~
achompas
Right. I hope this isn't Gruber's intent, given that he monetizes his brand
(i.e. _him_ ) by selling shirts and appearing at conferences. You can't really
dictate the terms for interaction when you when you're such a public figure.

If he _is_ saying what GP is suggesting, well, that's the problem with
building a cult of personality around yourself: people might buy in a bit too
fervently.

~~~
slantyyz
Gruber used to have a lot of interesting stuff to say.

In the same way that Jay Leno used to be one of the funniest comics in the 80s
and now resorts to Jaywalking to keep his audience, I find DF to be a little
boring, consisting of mainly claim chowder, Android schadenfreude, and the
occasional long winded rant essay that goes nowhere.

------
cw4
There were lots of armchair quarterbacks talking about how "they don't owe us
anything".

There were lots of comments from Gruber, Mike, etc basically mocking people
for being upset that the show dropped Dan and moved with no warning.

Dan pretty much nailed it: he feels like they owed the fans one last episode
to say goodbye and they didn't get to do that.

~~~
harpastum
Any links for those comments from Mike and Gruber? I haven't seen them.

~~~
mikeryan
Its mostly been a twitter based phenom.

<http://twitter.com/#!/Mike_FTW>

Check out the tweets from May 19 when it seemed to have blown up. Gruber's
twitter feed seems more silent.

~~~
cw4
@Amyjane made some, @Marcoarment retweeted a bunch, and Gruber has been making
passive-aggressive posts to Daring Fireball.

------
m_pond
Dan truly is a class act. His shows have been a huge source of insight and
entertainment to me over the last few years. I'm clicking the "Donate" button
on the 5by5 site.

------
ozarius
Dan's the best... I am sure 5by5 will do just fine with such superhits like
Hypercritical, Back to Work, Build and Analyze etc...

Taking a cue from Dan, i wish Gruber the best, though honestly i won't be
listening to him any more

------
nicholassmith
It's a shame, but they'd had a long run of shows, Gruber clearly wanted to do
something else which is fine. Could he have handled it better? Sure, of
course.

Plus they're still friends on Twitter, and we all know that it's only serious
if you unfollow.

~~~
zooey
"and we all know that it's only serious if you unfollow." eheheheh

------
ehed
Dan Benjamin is a class act.

------
ZanderEarth32
Not exactly the drama I think everyone was looking for, but I never expected
any reaction other than this from Dan. Whether this is the 100% complete
truth, we'll never know and we shouldn't care. Time to move on folks, nothing
else to see here.

~~~
chmars
John Gruber is free to tell his side of the story. Anyway, I agree with you
that is is time to move. As a listener, I am mainly happy that more and more
successful podcast networks appear in the US and elsewhere.

~~~
ehed
I posted this in the thread from Friday, but think it's worth mentioning again
- if you listen to the last few minutes, starting with where Dan mentions the
t-shirts, it seems like John was offended by the jokes made at his expense
(e.g. not wearing a shirt). Maybe it was the kind of thing that had been
accumulating, as I know Dan has made offhand cracks in the past, and perhaps
this was the last straw. I believe John felt disrespected/unappreciated, for
the last time it seems.

------
simonh
Does anyone else find it amusing that the title of the latest post on daring
Fireball is "Why wasn't I consulted?".

~~~
barredo
A year old article about "internet people" having some sense of entitlement
about other's work? Hardly a coincidence.

It's Gruber's answer to the HN thread & tweets of last week.

~~~
eduo
The article, though, is spot-on. The problem, to my eyes, is that it doesn't
really vibe with the situation.

People are not complaining that they didn't have a say. Most people I've read
seem to understand the reasoning behind the initial decision.

What the complaints are about are not about John's decision to leave 5by5 but
about the dickish way he decided to do it.

Being a bigger dick afterwards by implying he can do whatever he wants with
his podcast (won't even go into how bad it looks that he sees TTS as "his"
podcast and not the job of the two, regardless of him being the star host)
doesn't help.

The wording of the announcement and the hyperbole he lavishes muleradio with
make the whole thing even worse.

------
pohl
Jonathan Mann wrote a song about the demise of The Talk Show

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2yG6FdfPs>

<http://www.jonathanmann.net/>

~~~
ralfd
This is brilliant! Especially love the "And﻿ Gruber's I don't knowing" line.
Cracks me up.

------
znake
This shows again that Dan is one of the coolest podcasters ever! Thank you Dan
and Gruber for the countless hours in my ears :)

------
pjbeardsley
You have to wonder if John expected this level of backlash. It reminds me of
LeBron James' "The Decision" in a lot of ways.

He may be good, but he'll never be loved.

------
AllenKids
I was prepared to hate the new talk show and Mule Radio Syndicate, but to my
surprise, John Gruber sound a lot more energetic than pretty much the last
year, now if he can get a co-host to rein him in from time to time and at the
same time contribute his/her own thoughts... I think Massimo and Julia from
"Rationally Speaking" are a perfect couple. Leo LePorte and Dan Benjamin are
total nice guys but seldom say anything insightful, they generally just make
light jokes and move the topic along.

I skipped "Let's make mistakes" for nearly half a year before yesterday,
they've gotten better I'll have to say.

All in all John Gruber probably was being an ass, now he can be as much of an
ass as he want. He can't beat Mike Monteiro on that front.

I enjoy asses.

~~~
mbrd
I don't think Dan's ability to "move the topic along" should be
underestimated. It's a real skill to be able to give a discussion somewhat on
topic and on time and he is excellent at it.

I can't imagine trying to get even 20 minutes of useful content from Merlin
Mann but Dan does it every week on Back to Work!

~~~
AllenKids
But almost all the 5by5 major shows are horribly overtime.

Hypercritical, Back to Work, Build and Analyse, the once Talk Show, every host
other than Dan is rambling, on and on and on and on for hours. Don't get me
wrong, I enjoy it, 5by5 podcasts are background noises when I walking around
the city, doing chores etc. But information densities are really low (Back to
Work is an exception but per Merlin's style it's so all over the places, after
a while you just give up caring.)

~~~
chicagobob
I've never gotten any of these complaints about shows running "overtime".
Personally, the longer the better IMHO. They're podcasts. I listen as much as
I can, and then pause them to pick them up later. Short ones are just over
quicker and then I have to wait until the next one until there's more to
listen to.

PS: (edit) unless its music, I almost always listen to the spoken word at 1.5x
or 2x speed.

~~~
smackfu
My main complaint is that no one is saying "let's get back on topic" because
the topic is whatever the host wants. So you get a 10 minute digression on
random crap. That is the "overtime" part. I wouldn't mind 90 minutes of on-
topic chat.

------
mchanson
Dan seems conflicted over how it went down, but I'm left feeling this
statement shows he is quite angry with John and begrudges how John handled
things (no last show and re-using the show name). I disagree this is a
'classy' statement (because of the criticism of his ex-co-host).

I think its trying to be a straightforward telling of Dan's perspective
without him being too emotional. I think its pretty good for that. Would love
for all parties to to be as open and honest as they can as it will make for
compelling radio!

Disclosure: I'm a $5 a month subscriber to 5by5, a Gruber fan, and a big fan
of Let's Make Mistakes (and Mike in general).

~~~
f1nch3r
You can criticize and remain classy. I think Dan did that in this statement.

~~~
Tloewald
I agree, and if it's true that John took the show's name without even giving
Dan advance notice let alone asking permission, then I'm disappointed. I'm
curious in general about mule's split from Dan. I loved the original "fuck
you, pay me" but never got into "let's make mistakes" and was surprised that
they split off 5by5 (and now appear to be poaching) but I'd like to hear the
other side...

~~~
guywithabike
Let's Make Mistakes didn't "split off". They paid to be on the 5by5 network
and once they established themselves, they moved it to their own network. No
funny business there, basically.

~~~
awolf
I've been curious about that myself. You say that Mike and Katy paid to be on
5by5. How do you know this? I would assume that the arrangement would simply
to have shared a portion of the sponsorship money with 5by5.

------
Alcedes
I wonder if i'm the only one that finds Gruber annoying to listen to after
knowing what kind of person he seems to be. I guess i'll swing by DF weekly
instead of daily...

------
jeiting
I would think that mule radio would be on precarious legal ground carrying and
unauthorized continuation of what is (likely) the intellectual property of
5by5. Hard to say for certain without seeing the agreement between 5by5 and
Dan but I'm surprised they wouldn't give the show a new name.

(On a personal note I think Dan is getting screwed here after doing most of
the work and this has finely put me over the edge in considering Gruber a git)

------
zachwill
Dan's a class act.

------
Codhisattva
My takeaway - joint projects, even (or perhaps especially) between friends,
need to have clear agreements and binding contracts.

------
lachlanj
To me 50% of this show was Dan Benjamin. Without him it will not be the same
show, even if Gruber is the main draw card. Sad to see him leave, but I'm more
interested in what is ahead for Dan. He has a great network.

------
jwpage
The final seconds of the last show[1] are pretty uncomfortable to listen to.

[1] <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2443832/Screenshots/Marker%201.m4a>

~~~
davidcollantes
Grubber sounds upset, or guilty. It might be about the t-shirt part, and he
not knowing anything about it, or the fact that it was a t-shirt for a show he
will not longer be doing (and Dan did not know anything about it). Pretty
uncomfortable.

------
timkeller
The classiest guy in podcasting. Bravo Sir.

~~~
bruceclark
Leo Laporte is pretty damn classy. But do I agree this was a class-act thing
to do for the listeners of 5by5.

~~~
camflan
Really?

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078355/Tech-guru-
ac...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078355/Tech-guru-accidentally-
broadcasts-explicit-sex-chat-massive-online-audience.html)

Dan seems like the real deal.

~~~
runjake
I have no real idea of who Leo Laporte is, but the article you pasted doesn't
paint him in a negative light to me.

He was separated from his wife for a year, and has (apparently openly) been
dating this other woman. Some of their personal chat was accidentally
displayed "on the air".

So where's the problem and how is it any of our business? And more
importantly, how does it reflect badly on him?

------
davidkatz
Does anyone know the story from Gruber's side?

------
faizanaziz
All good things come to end. Well...

------
moron
I like Gruber's writing and often chafe at some of the less-insightful things
people have to say about him, but I agree 100% with Dan here. It would have
been right for Gruber and him to properly cap off the show for the listeners.
It would have been right to acknowledge that it really isn't the same show
anymore. In addition, it would have been right for Gruber to say how great of
a co-host Dan has been, because he has been.

But none of those things happened, and that is shitty. There's really no two
ways about it.

This isn't about "I wasn't consulted". This is about respect for the audience
and saying at least a few words to them, for crying out loud. It's about
acting like they matter just a little. What exactly is The Talk Show, or any
show, without listeners? This isn't taking a page out of the Apple PR book --
Apple actually _does_ explain their reasoning for why they do things, when
those things affect how people relate to what they make.

~~~
tjogin
I agree, but on the other hand, Dan always says "it's your show" whenever they
need to make a decision about something.

Dan also often refrains from correcting or informing Gruber at times when he's
unsure or is wrong about something, much to Gruber's disappointment the
following episode when Gruber has found it out, again with Dan excusing
himself with saying "it's your show".

If I were to venture a guess, Gruber would prefer a co-host that contributes
to, rather than mostly guides, the conversation.

~~~
meej
I would venture a similar guess. I haven't listened to The Talk Show, but I
did listen to The Critical Path with Horace Dedieu for its first few months
and based on that I would say that Benjamin isn't even that great of a guide
-- I often found his questions and reactions to Dedieu to be naive or
uninformed, which eventually irritated me out of listening. His voice is nice
to listen to, but I'm not terribly interested in what he has to say.

------
mahmud
Who listens to IT podcasts? the world is full of rich and wonderful media
broaden your horizons, listen to something that isn't backdated garbage.
Imagine all the music genres you could discover, educational materials,
languages you could learn, audiobooks ..

~~~
gizmo
Hypercritical (by 5by5) is actually very good.

Amazingly, you argue that people should broaden their horizons (i.e. don't be
closeminded) and yet you blindly dismiss IT podcasts completely as back-dated
garbage. Discarding whole categories of self-expression/content as crap is the
very definition of close-mindedness. Oh, the irony.

Maybe people listen to IT podcasts because they like to. It needs no further
justification.

