
Co-founder won't move to the valley if accepted by YC. What do I do? - wammin
Well, I had a kinda ugly conversation with my team yesterday. I'm starting on our YC application for the winter term, and of course the first question is "will you move to the valley Jan-Mar if accepted?". My answer is a resounding "hell yea!" but my co-founder, and our #3 guy both said no.<p>This is not the first symptom of lack of dedication from my others on my team. I quit my job last November (wow, 10 months already) to work on the startup full time. I've done 85% of the code, server admin, graphics, everything. I'm pretty much running the operations by myself<p>Co-founder is not a technical person, but does a good job with idea generation, responding to our alpha users, legal documents and creating bug tickets for me to fix ... but that's about it. He doesn't do much in the way of progressing the product to be ready for market (which is what we need most right now). I've urged him many times to join me full-time, I'll teach him basic web design and testing, I'll of course still handle the complicated stuff. He has a very good job (he's MUCH younger than anyone in his industry) at a private equity firm, and won't leave that without some guarantee of funding his relatively high cost of living for at least 6 months or so.<p>#3 guy is a talented developer, but also has a full-time job, new wife, and other projects. We work great together. The hard part is getting together. I don't think he's got the "startup drive" that must of us have, though. I didn't really expect him to say yes.<p>My predicament is pretty clear. I need help getting our product market-ready (public beta is supposed to be this month, but it won't be everything that I wanted it to be) and I'm hitting a wall from my team. I can do a lot by myself, but I'm still only one person.<p>I want so badly to be in the YC environment, working with smart people all around. It's been 10 months now of me hacking away alone in my condo ... getting very antsy. If I got accepted, I'd pack up right away and plan on a permanent move out west (It's always been a dream of mine to live out there).<p>Part of me is thinking that I need a new team. Or maybe just another technical founder. Will YC even consider me with a non-committed team as baggage? Should I apply just by myself? Please share your advice.
======
pg
YC isn't for every startup. Viaweb couldn't have done it in the winter; I
couldn't have gotten Rtm and Trevor to move. Yet they were good cofounders to
have.

It's always a judgement call whether one's cofounders' inability to move is a
sign of general lameness, or whether they're so good that they're worth having
anyway. But it's that deeper question you need to answer. If your cofounders
are lame, you should ditch them regardless; and if they're not, don't worry
about YC, because good cofounders are worth more to a startup than we are.

~~~
wammin
Paul, thanks for the reply. I know that YC is not the end-all be-all, but I do
think it would be a great way to increase our chance of success. I don't think
my co-founder is lame at all. Actually he's a super smart guy, we have known
each other for 7 years, and have started and sold one moderately successful
startup together during college.

What is frustrating that maybe you didn't understand before is that we're not
working together now as it is (in two different cities ... at least a 2hr
plane away). For my own saneness, team energy, and for the sake of teamwork, I
thought that moving to YC would be a great opportunity for us to actually work
in the same room together, and have support all around. I know that if that
happens, we will do great things.

btw ... I'm gonna apply anyway. So, you'll hear from me again soon.

------
breck
The truth is you can't succeed with that type of a team. Read PG's article
"How Not to Die". A great quote is:

"The number one thing not to do is other things. If you find yourself saying a
sentence that ends with "but we're going to keep working on the startup," you
are in big trouble. Bob's going to grad school, but we're going to keep
working on the startup. We're moving back to Minnesota, but we're going to
keep working on the startup. We're taking on some consulting projects, but
we're going to keep working on the startup. You may as well just translate
these to "we're giving up on the startup, but we're not willing to admit that
to ourselves," because that's what it means most of the time."

I've run into similar situations before. This is a serious problem and one you
should deal with immediately, because it will only get worse. Have an honest,
tough talk with your team. It sounds like you won't convince them to put it
all on the line like you have, but at least you'll know and you can make an
arrangement so that you're moving forward with the company and not having this
looming over your head. If worse comes to worst, tell them you are going to
move on because its sounds like you are pretty talented and there are many
opportunities for someone like you.

Good luck.

~~~
wammin
Yep, I agree with your advice and I also read PG's recent article that you
referenced. Totally agree.

I have talked with the team, and we seem to all understand that this is not
going the way we want. I have made it clear that I will be looking for others
to join in a "co-founder" capacity if I get the opportunity to go to YC this
winter. They are reasonable people and good friends, so I don't think it will
be a big problem to do a little equity restructuring if its in the best
interest of the startup.

My real question is not "am I screwed?" because I already know that. I'm
asking "how can I fix this now?" or, in other words "please help me find a new
co-founder and a chance to get into YC (or another good startuppy
environment)."

~~~
nostrademons
We were in a similar situation in the last YC funding cycle. 5 founders, 3
were not willing to quit their day jobs or move to Boston for the SFP. It
absolutely is a problem - the first thing PG shot back was "Too many
uncommitted founders!", and we didn't get accepted (or even interviewed).
It'll likely be a problem without YC too: you end up spending more time
ensuring that everyone's on the same page than actually building the project.
We sped up noticeably after we dropped from 5 founders to 2.

I can't really help find a new cofounder (other than reiterate what others
have said: ask around here, check cofoundr.com, etc.), but I can tell you what
we did. We (my surviving cofounder and I) bought out the other 3 founders for
$1000 apiece. In retrospect this was probably too high, given how quickly they
accepted. But it was done mostly to preserve good relations and make sure
nobody felt they were being cheated, and I think it succeeded in that. When
our incorporation papers come through there will be a few agreements for them
to sign to make sure we own the stuff they did before we bought them out.

------
thomasptacek
You quit your job and put 10 months worth of effort into a product that
succeeds or fails based on whether Paul Graham gives you $15,000?

I know this is a YC forum and all, but the cargo culting here is creepy, which
is too bad because if you weed through it there are obviously some smart
people posting.

Here's a tip: if you can solo jump start a fundable product, your consulting
bill rate will "fund" you, YC style, in less than a month. Then, you can
ignore what YC says, keep the talented developer (finding talent in this
market is like finding weaponizable plutonium on the shelves at a Des Moines
Wal-Mart), chuck the dead wood, and take yourself to market on your own terms.

~~~
Sam_Odio
You're right that $15,000 is easy to find. But what you don't realize is that
hardly anyone here is applying to the YC program for the $15k...

I saw more VCs at the last YC demo day than I have in my entire life. And,
from talking to the YC founders, I'm not alone. I'm not claiming that high VC
interest predicts success. However the number of VCs interested in your
startup is a good proxy for the overall interest in your startup, since VCs
want to invest in what's popular.

~~~
jdavid
I agree, 15k is something my parents will give us or money i could raise
selling my 350z.

The real victory is winning the prize, and the attention of VC you get.

~~~
thomasptacek
It seems like your odds of "winning" this contest are not great, and your odds
of "converting" that win to an A round are also not great. I like the YC idea
and have little more specifically to say about it than that, but if you're
investing 10 full time months, the quality of your execution will dominate
your chances, not Paul Graham's imprimatur.

------
pbnaidu
Sorry to hear that your team is not on the same page.

I think the level of commitment from the other two co-founders is much less
according to your description, I am not even sure you should give them co-
founder status. Remember you're working full time on the project that means
you're investing $x (your full time job's salary) every month as opposed to
the other guys. From your description the other two guys seems to be playing
safe, not risk takers (very much required ingredient for startups)

I think you really need to find new team members who are committed, dedicated,
and risk takers.

As far as finding new team members, I think it would be nice to work with
people who you know already to reduce time consumed building a new
relationship. Otherwise, you got to work with people for some time to find
workable team members.

Best of luck

------
Number2
Hello everyone, this is the infamous #2 here. Yes, I am a co-founder of a new
Web 2.0 startup and do have the Hacker News RSS feed on my homepage. Airing
our dirty laundry in a public forum wasn't my decision, but. . .

I feel like I have to defend myself a bit about all of the negative comments.
We are clearly in the product development stage and I'm not a developer, so my
efforts are focused on enabling #1 to spend 100% of his time on product
development. I have 2 years VC experience and 3 years LBO experience (where I
am now), so I do all the legal agreements (options, LLC filings, prop rights
agreements, Trademark filings, contribution/consulting agreements, etc.) and
I'm the one that negotiates and drafts terms for all of our other developers
(they tend to come and go due to the lack of cash to pay). I file taxes, pay
the bills, and track financials to report to investors on a quarterly basis. I
prepare executive summaries to send to prospective investors and submit to
conferences. I am the one that plays "bad cop" with the developers when things
aren't going well or they are underferforming so #1 can maintain a good
working relationship. I help with design, layout, and other ideas related to
the site, mainly with UI, new features, and catching bugs/fixes. I interact
often with our Alpha users to stay in touch with what they need and what they
want. Soon I will start helping with writing tests since I asked #1 what I
could do to help more directly with Beta short of learning Ruby. Some of the
toughest decisions that we face having so much to do with so few resources to
do it with is WHAT to work on, and I try to have open conversations with the
team to make sure we're prioritizing everything right and agree as a group,
because startups tend to start to ramble along unless we discuss what we
absolutely need to get out the door every week. So, I wouldn't say that I
don't do anything, but rather I don't do anything to ease the bottleneck,
which is currently product development. #1 and I came up with the idea on a
phone call a while back and it has become what it is today, so I truly am an
original co-founder. It's also important to note that #1 and I started another
internet company in college which worked out well considering it was a one
semester project. We are also best friends.

I just got married 2 weeks ago and have a job that I can't just bounce back
into ever again. My entire family is in the Midwest and there are few good PE
shops there. Getting a job in PE is really hard. I believe one in 50 Harvard
MBAs can get one, and I was fortunate enought to get one at a good firm in the
midwest near my family. So quitting my job is not something I take lightly,
but I am open to it. #1 was previously an independent consultant that can
easily get a job as good or better within months. He is a tremendously
talented developer and I'm proud to call him my co-founder. When you say
"risk", I'm not sure you can compare one man's risk of quitting with anothers.
Different industry, different pay, different location, different
circumstances. #1 and I had the discussion of what it would take for me to
quit on day 1. I said a significant capital raise (I tossed out $500k-$1mm+)
or a really strong user ramp. I spend nearly all my free time (I work a LOT,
so there's not much) on this startup. For me to dedictate my only 2 free hours
a day to this is a lot, especially considering my recent marriage, but I do it
anyway. I would not call this a lack of dedication at all. I've taken 1 C++
class in my life, so convincing me to quit my job to learn to code is a bit
far-fetched. We know what we need, we just need the developers to create it,
but using me as a developer does not seem like the right decision.

I really don't think the issue here is that I suck, I think it's that I'm not
a developer. Things took longer than expected to get off the ground as far as
product developement and #1 is getting antsy, and understandably so. We've
gone through several equity-only developers that, in the end, may have taken
up more of #1's time then they were worth. I've tried getting in touch with
the Universities CS departments where #1 lives to try to get some local
candidates to get a better startup culture/environment going since I'm in a
different location than #1, but there aren't many resumes that come across
with Ruby experience.

If I'm in the way of making this a success, I'm willing to do what it takes to
remove me as an obstacle. I guess (no offense) I'm just not convinced that YC
and $15,000 is what it takes to make this a success. I think another full-time
talented developer that can work with #1 in the same city would do wonders,
and I'm willing to cough up the equity. Now that everyone knows the full
story, I'd be interested to hear some feedback. Maybe the feedback is still
that I suck, but at least you have my side of the story. If everyone thinks YC
is critical to where we are going and if PG would admit #1 if I stepped down
and re-worked the equity I would be willing to do that. The important part is
that I'm a fair, honest, and flexible guy and just want this to be a success.
I understand my lack of development is not really helping us right now, but my
"non-production" contributions should not be overlooked either.

I apologize for airing our dirty laundry here, but I felt I had to respond
once it was up.

\- #2

~~~
alaskamiller
I think you need to let go, for now.

It's obvious where your priorities are (family/wife, career/money) and at this
early stage where product development is driven by coders that need to go full
steam ahead, you're not in a position to help.

When your product gains more traction and more attention, you should step back
in and help. Your experience in terms of financing and business development
will be of better use then.

The timing, unfortunately, just isn't right. Number 1 should move to the West
Coast, live for a few months, mingle with people, latch on with a couple of
more developers and then give you a call a couple months down the road.

~~~
Number2
This is #2 again. I think you're getting to part of the issue here. We need to
be coding full-steam ahead and we need more coders - it is the clear
bottleneck. We can either do that through money or options. To date, we have
been cycling through developers with all options, but we have found that it's
hard to source good ones, and they often move on by the time we've gotten a
return from the time spent getting them familiar with the code. The current
course is to have #1 and #3 crank out some code in the next month, launch
Beta, and go after another round of funding to hire some full-time developers
to join #1.

I don't think what I mentioned above or what you mention in your post means
that I have to "step back" or "step down". I do everything but code, enabling
those that code to be as efficient as possible. You said yourself that the
product is currently "driven by coders that need to go full steam ahead" and
I'm not in a position to help. If #1 had to figure out all the legal
documentation, pay taxes, manage cash, put together marketing materials,
respond to users, find and log bugs, put together investor reports, file
trademarks, etc. would our development would be going "full steam ahead"?
Also, do you think the quality of that stuff would be the same coming from a
developer? I'm also guessing it would cost a considerable amount of money. I'm
not sure how I'm not in a position to help and what good "stepping back" would
do. If #1 wants to move, network, and take greater risks, I'm open to talking
about re-working equity, but saying that I'm just going to drop off the earth
for 2 months until I get a call is just rediculous.

------
rokhayakebe
Take it form a non-technical co-founder. Nate, your co-founder doesn't have to
move. You can. It is even better this way. I am working on my startup and my
co-founder is a good thousands miles away from me. He handles all technical
aspects and I do the other stuff. I read and learn a lot of stuff, so we can
communicate technically, but the truth is if I was close to him all I would do
is waste his time. So move and do your technical thing, Let me stay where he
is and do his thing. Communicate a lot though. And do not start to IM with
people like us unless you want to take a break from coding. I only talk with
my cofounder at the end of his day, that way I know I am not in his way
anymore.

------
dpapathanasiou
_I want so badly to be in the YC environment, working with smart people all
around. It's been 10 months now of me hacking away alone in my condo ...
getting very antsy. If I got accepted, I'd pack up right away and plan on a
permanent move out west (It's always been a dream of mine to live out there)._

YC is not the only path to success, nor should you think that you absolutely
need these two other people (especially if they won't go with you).

If you really feel that way, you should just take the plunge and head out
there, even if YC rejects you.

~~~
wammin
I just might do that. I'm sick of Atlanta anyway.

~~~
jsolson
You and me both... I'll miss Octane and Javamonkey, though.

------
webwright
Heh-- I had a similar conversation with my team with similar results. Sucks,
eh?

I'm 35, I've built and sold two web businesses, and I think the YC program is
a freakin' steal for the 2-10% that they want.

If anyone wants to chat about partnering up on a YC app, drop me a line. My
background is design, UX, light coding (rails, etc), SEO, SMM, etc. I'd
happily chat about any ideas (I've got a few of my own), as long as the
proposed revenue model isn't "targetted advertising". :-) I bet we could have
a prototype ready for review-time.

------
nreece
Before you, your cofounder and your team came together to work on the startup,
did you "communicate" to your cofounder and/or team that you might/will
consider moving to a different city if the need arises? Did you guys talk
through any such possibility if the startup looks promising in the future? If
not, then do you think its justifiable to only hold them accountable for not
agreeing to move with you?

Teams are made up of people, not ideas alone. They may have families and other
responsibilities which might be more important to them. So if you think that
they do not share your vision, then try and talk to each one of them
individually and understand what's holding them back. And if its really not
going to work out, then be polite and express them clearly that you care about
the future of this startup a great deal, and you will have to find a team
member who shares your vision. But be humble, and stay humble. Nobody likes a
cranky selfish boss. Good luck!

~~~
bootload
_"... did you "communicate" ..."_

Hmmm communicating. Sounds like your making a statement there. Why?

 _"... Each person should just do what they need to without anyone telling
them ... If that sounds like a recipe for chaos, think about a soccer team ...
David Beckham if there were any language problems at Real Madrid, since the
players were from about eight different countries. He said it was never an
issue, because everyone was so good they never had to talk. They all just did
the right thing. ..."_

It's _"bleedin obvious"_ that at some stage you _might_ have to move. So the
requirement for communication bit could be an indication of co-founders (3)
_"Not determined enough"_ or (9) _"Family to support"_ or (11) _"Not ready for
commitment"_.

All reasons to 'not (not) start a startup' with them ~
<http://www.paulgraham.com/notnot.html>

~~~
nreece
OMG! Here come The Commandments!

Imo, a startup is a relationship, where you need communication - with your
team, as with your customers.

~~~
bootload
" _The Commandments!_ "

I like that.

Sure it's a relationship. But the type of relationship bw co-founders, team
and customers is very different. If your co-founders, fellow hackers, the ones
that should understand the implications of startups the most, balk at such a
simple hurdle to start a startup. Communication is not the problem, commitment
(or insert N other reasons is).

A very different relationship (more communicative) exists bw staff who are not
the core of the team at the start. It goes unsaid that the on-going
relationship with the customers is paramount.

But to misunderstand the idea that founders & co-founders should explicitly
have to communicate such fundamental concepts as _"we might have to move
sometime to achieve 'Foo'" or "we might have to actually do 'bar' to get to
the next hurdle_ is fundamentally different from communicating to hires or
customers.

BTW can you point <http://www.feedity.com> to news.ycombinator?

~~~
nreece
>> BTW can you point <http://www.feedity.com> to news.ycombinator?

I didn't get what you mean by that.

~~~
bootload
" _... I didn't get what you mean by that. ..."_

can I run feedity over news.yc? or turn the news.yc site to rss. I gave it a
go but couldn't get a result. It would be useful to try because it's a pain
scraping lots of different nyc pages.

... try again. Ahh now I got it. The first time I didn't select a category. Is
it possible to get an rss result back without selecting a category? (like
select your own?) as the categories restrict (reduce the returns). I want
everything back.

... now I understand. I've tried to do something that's only found in the
_"Advanced Refine"_ menu. Would it be a good idea to add an "Advanced" link at
the front page?

... aggh the _Advanced Refine_ cr@ps out on my blocks. I'm trying this bit
because I've been hacking with BeautifulSoup pretty much doing exactly what
the refine is doing. Its an absolute pain. One idea to make selection of the
blocks easier is to parse the html doc, then render the structure as an
outline visually (like HTML Validator or below) .... table tag

    
    
                + td child tag 1
    
                + td child tag 2                            
    
                       + tr child 2,1
    

When I was trying to parse pages the ability to see the page + markup
overlayed with the structure HTML Validator (
<https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/249> ) made it 10 times easier for
me to select exactly _"what"_ I wanted to parse.

~~~
nreece
Thanks :)

------
imsteve
Girlfriends and wives are always the hidden factor that will hold you back if
you don't consider this carefully.

So I say, go straight to the root of the problem. See if you can make a plan
that allows them to destroy neither their personal lives nor the company.

------
gersteni
Based on this info you need to cut ties with these people. Equity is for risk
takers. If you are taking all of the risks, then you should get all of the
equity.

Now, if you have already shared the equity, then you are in a big bind.

------
sama
You really need to drop this guy (#2)--I predict failure, near-failure, or
serious regrets and much less than what could have been if you don't.

~~~
Number2
Please see my long-winded previous post further up in the thread but
chronologically after this.

~~~
dhouston
sam's still right. all kinds of red flags -- "i'll give up my job, but only if
things are going well", "i have 2hr/day to spend", resentment already
building, etc. it's only gonna get worse.

number2 -- that's fine that you have those priorities (family, steady job),
but it seems like you're in denial about the situation. absentee (or remote +
part-time, whatever) cofounders are not what early stage startups need. and
even if you disagree, your potential investors (e.g. yc) won't. if being
remote and working 2hrs a day was a viable strategy for a startup founder,
don't you think there would be more success stories that fit that profile? :P

that said, you can still come on board later after #1 gets things going.

------
rms
You really want to find yourself another technical cofounder that is fully
committed to the project.

~~~
wammin
Is anyone on here interested? Email me nate@wamily.com.

~~~
forgotmylastone
Do you even have ownership of the project at this point? Don't all these
others have a claim to it? Are you prepared to buy them out and/or completely
start from scratch?

~~~
wammin
I do not have complete ownership, no. Co-founder has an equal stake as
currently, but we have a prearranged agreement where I will be entitled to
more equity upon our first financing. I don't really want to throw them out
... they are good at what they do (just not doing enough, in my opinion). I
don't think it would be a problem to come to an agreement to redistribute
equity.

------
lefstathiou
Fortune favors the bold my friend. Be Bold.

