
Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook - jeremylevy
https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/04/kuo-new-keyboard-macbook-air-pro/
======
Perceptes
I desperately hope this is true. I have the first MacBook Pro that came with
the Touch Bar, and it's the worst computer I've ever owned. The keyboard has
failed twice, and the Touch Bar is inferior to the old hardware keys in every
way. I hate it. The only reason I got it is because the MacBook Air it
replaced was dying and I couldn't wait any more. Assuming this report is true,
my only remaining worry is that they won't offer a version of this new Pro
without a Touch Bar, or that only a model with a smaller display will offer
hardware function keys, like they've done in the past.

~~~
FabHK
> I have the first MacBook Pro that came with the Touch Bar, and it's the
> worst computer I've ever owned.

Same here (well, I have the "cheap" one without the Touch Bar). Everything has
been replaced at least once (on Apple Care, fortunately) except the bottom
plate.

> The only reason I got it is because the MacBook Air it replaced was dying

Same here. That MBA was a fine machine.

~~~
iamben
I'm still using my MBA from mid 2013. It's a wonderful thing. Battery is
"replace soon" but it's mostly plugged in. It's battered and bruised, but
still fast enough. I've been debating a change for a while and figured at the
start of the year I'd wait to see if they were going to ditch the bf keyboard
if they release a new MBA. Super glad I waited, fingers crossed I get the same
life out of the next one!

Say what you want about Apple and price, but I've had PCs since 1994 and the
two Macs I've had have (usefully) outlasted every other machine by quite some
margin - this one in particular. 6 years without formatting a Windows machine
(I can't talk for now, but especially back then) would be crazy.

~~~
gambiting
I have a 2009 MacBook Pro (Core2Duo + 4GB of ram), I've added an SSD years
ago, and it runs absolutely fine, I use it almost daily to browse the web.
Even the battery still works(only for about an hour, but it does).

~~~
miles
> I have a 2009 MacBook Pro (Core2Duo + 4GB of ram), I've added an SSD years
> ago, and it runs absolutely fine, I use it almost daily to browse the web.
> ... the updates stopped at El Capitan unfortunately. ... I'm not that
> bothered.

You might want to consider running Manjaro[0] or Haiku[1] instead (I've had
great luck with both on older MacBooks [2,3]).

Nessus reports El Capitan as a "Critical" vulnerability due to lack of
security updates:

 _According to its self-reported version number, the Unix operating system
running on the remote host is no longer supported._

 _Lack of support implies that no new security patches for the product will be
released by the vendor. As a result, it is likely to contain security
vulnerabilities._

...

 _Mac OS X 10.11.6 (intel) support ended._

 _Upgrade to Mac OS X 10.14 / 10.13 / 10.12._

[0] [https://manjaro.org](https://manjaro.org)

[1] [https://www.haiku-os.org](https://www.haiku-os.org)

[2]
[https://tinyapps.org/blog/201811010700_linux_for_2009_macboo...](https://tinyapps.org/blog/201811010700_linux_for_2009_macbook.html)

[3] [https://tinyapps.org/docs/haiku/](https://tinyapps.org/docs/haiku/)

~~~
gambiting
Sure, but it's a laptop to look up some kitchen recipes, watch YouTube and use
facetime occasionally. If it has security vulnerabilities I'm genuinely not
bothered - any minute spent installing another system is a minute just not
worth it for me.

~~~
wila
Which is fine if you keep that laptop in its own isolated network. Otherwise
it might end up being used for gaining access to other machines in your
network.

------
RayVR
Having used the 2018 MacBook Air for about 3 months now, I can say I really
detest it and I would return it if that were possible.

1) the keyboard. This thing really feels like slamming your fingers into a
metal slab. I think my iPad Pro keyboard is better. The MacBook Air keyboard
is also very loud. For something with so little depth the sound is shocking.

2) the webcam. Total garbage. In a laptop this expensive I think this is
inexcusable. my old ipad has a significantly better camera for video calls so
I’m not carrying around both. Ridiculous.

3) the new charger is so much worse than I could have expected. The lack of
MagSafe I knew about, thought it would be ok. Really a big loss. There’s also
something wrong with the cable. It’s constantly getting kinks/twists in the
wiring which I can’t straighten out, even though I baby it.

If they release a new MacBook Air this year I’ll definitely feel a bit
betrayed. Like they knowingly released something that was a stop-gap PoS.

~~~
screye
With Jony Ive gone, I hope they finally move towards function over form.

From what I've been reading, the push for portraying Apple as a fashion
company, came directly from Ive's side.

~~~
noisy_boy
That portrayal has been making them good money.

~~~
Razengan
Because, believe it or not, many people are happy with Apple's designs.

And it's not just sales; Apple generally ranks at the top or near the top in
customer satisfaction surveys as well.

~~~
noisy_boy
Oh I don't need any convincing that many people are happy with Apple's
designs. People are happy to carry dongles to compensate for miniscule no. of
ports, deal with accidents due to removal of magsafe, getting rid of escape
key, bad keyboard (never thought developers would be ok with the last two) etc
etc while insisting on continuing to buy fairly expensive Apple products. It
pretty much underlines that Apple can basically get away with murder.

------
rev12
It seems like there are two camps of people:

Those who are very pleased to hear they will be backpedaling on their updated
keyboard designs.

Those who "don't understand" because they _actually_ like the new keyboards
(and the TouchBar even).

No matter where you stand, the new keyboards are highly controversial and
divisive, and that's not good. The old keyboards didn't put people into
opposing sides, they just were there. Sure people compared them to other
manufacturer keyboards, sometimes for the worse and other times for the
better, but it wasn't a hate or love relationship by the user base. There was
no "getting used to it," it was just a keyboard.

I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely
accepted as "fine", keyboard. I hope that's what we get.

~~~
Octoth0rpe
> The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were
> there.

Have you ever spoken to a thinkpad advocate re: chiclet keyboards? The
previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for the
previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge happened.

> I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely
> accepted as "fine", keyboard.

Honestly, this will never happen for two reasons:

1) people's needs are diverse enough where that's simply an impossible job. I
happen to _really_ like the current apple keyboards, but the reliability is
bad enough for me to want a change. The consensus where I work (100ish mac
laptops) is that the keyboard is awful. Someone is going to be unhappy, and it
sounds like it might be me :(

2) There's some segment of the technology world (non-unix people?) that will
latch onto any criticism of apple - fair/deserved or not - and shout it
endlessly.

~~~
dkarl
> The previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for
> the previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge
> happened.

I would dispute that people stopped caring about the keyboard shortcomings.
They're ergonomically bad keyboards, just not bad enough to keep complaining
for this many years. If all Apple cares about is what people are currently
chattering about, they're missing an opportunity to improve the product,
because I still regard the MacBook keyboards as a reason to buy something
else. When I think of the painful adjustment that I'll have to make if I ditch
Apple laptops in favor of something else, there's a voice in my head saying,
"Remember when a laptop keyboard could feel _good_ to type on?" Banging my
fingertips into a hard surface all day never became "just a keyboard."

~~~
megablast
> I would dispute that people stopped caring about the keyboard shortcomings.

Let me guess, you have a guy feeling about this stuff?

~~~
lifty
Can you please clarify, what is a guy feeling?

------
submeta
Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more
year to change upcoming laptops. - It‘s unbelievable how this crap could be
released. Coming from a ThinkPad to a MBP in 2015 I was even disappointed by
the keyboard of the MBP 2015. Then switching to a MBP 2018 I was shocked how
much worse things could get (for the sake of thinness?)

~~~
kossae
What’s wrong with the 2015? That’s the last good version of the keyboard IMO.

~~~
geolgau
It's not as good as those on Thinkpads.

~~~
isostatic
Which thinkpads? From 2003? From 2010? From today?

~~~
philliphaydon
I got an X1 Extreme. Keyboard is amazing. Didn’t know these keyboards were so
much better than any MAC I owned until January this year.

~~~
teekert
Dat touchpad though...

~~~
philliphaydon
I don’t mind it. I use the keyboard 95% of the time. Then touchpad much less.
While Apple has the best touchpad. Keyboard is more important. IMO.

------
lajawfe
I can't stop but speculate if departure of Ive had anything to do with this. I
guess there was a lot of push-back internally about this, but because of Ive,
they had to endure 4 generations of butterfly switches. Touchbar also is just
a resource hog for nothing extraordinarily useful. I haven't seen people use
it too often. I bet they did user studies and found out that the Touchbar
wasn't the new interaction method they hoped it would be. And now, they are
planning to introduce new macs without them. I bet Ive feels bad about having
to see his decisions being rolled back. Anyway, I hope the rumored 16' Macbook
pro actually caters to the professionals by prioritizing thermals over
thinness, and if one can wish, it would be nice if Magsafe could ride this
rollback train.

~~~
bmurphy1976
This app was released recently:

[https://pock.dev/](https://pock.dev/)

It puts the dock in your touchbar. It's the first time in the 9 months I've
had this laptop where I've actually gone "ok, this is useful" and I am
actually using it. I now have the dock auto hide and I mostly use the touch
bar to open apps.

That said, I'd still prefer they ditched the touchbar in favor of function
keys. I'd be happy if they shrunk the ridiculous size of the touchpad a bit,
and put a row of function keys in between the touchpad and keyboard as well.

~~~
pault
Personally, while I have never once used the touchbar, I do think the ability
for apps to display contextual function keys has a lot of use cases. I would
be happy if they released physical keys with little oled screens on them, like
that old Optimus keyboard. Apparently it was garbage but the tech has come a
long way in ten years.

~~~
IshKebab
Apps can display contextual functions on the screen! The main problem with the
touchbar is that you never look at it. It's not discoverable.

~~~
pault
The problem with the touch bar is that you have to look away from the screen
to use it. Physical buttons would allow you to touch type, and I don't think
it's a problem to scan the keys a few times when you start using a new app. In
that sense they are just as discoverable as keyboard shortcuts. You look them
up a few times, and eventually you use them without thinking about it.

------
kenneth
Once I got used to the new keyboards, I actually far prefer them. Ditto with
the TouchBar. Yeah, I'm a heretic I suppose.

Keyboard: pleasant clicky-ness and little movement required. Thin AF.

TouchBar: customized with BetterTouchTools to be a hybrid of my most often-
used shortcuts (expand menu, alfred, fantastical, window management, and
1password on the left, notification center and lock screen on the right) and
music controls with gestures in the middle: shows current track, can change
volume, switch tracks, play/pause, mute, or tap into a submenu to pull up most
frequent playlists and add current songs to my library. Way better than using
the function keys of old.

Oh and the escape key… long remapped to caps lock. If I really need caps lock,
fn + caps lock key toggles it.

~~~
dewey
The problem that most people have is not with how it feels, it's how
unreliable it is with buttons failing or missing keystrokes. Sometimes only
caused by a spec of dust.

Getting used to the feeling of the flatter keyboard isn't really an issue for
most people.

~~~
sroussey
No, most people have no issues. There is not a 51% failure rate. Being in a
group does not a majority make.

~~~
ksec
According to Twitter Poll by 50 different Web SaaS companies, All of them had
MacBook Pro Keyboard failure in their team and have been working around them.

If you are telling me even a 5% keyboard failure rate within the first 2 year
of purchase is an acceptable number that we can simply stop further discussion
and say we agree to disagree.

------
dougmwne
Thank goodness. MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects, but I had to
cross them off the buy list due to the keyboard. I understand it's
controversial, but for me I've spent plenty of time using the butterfly
keyboard and it just doesn't feel comfortable to me. And I'm not some
mechanical keyboard purist, actually my favorite keyboard of all time was the
previous chicklet keyboard. A runner up for me is a travel Bluetooth keyboard
with round keys that Logitech makes.

~~~
robertAngst
> MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects

I've never heard this before.

I thought some people needed their proprietary software that could only be run
on Apple products, and that is what forces someone to buy a Macbook.

What are they best in class for?

EDIT: Thank you for the serious responses

~~~
michaelt

      I've never heard this before.
    

For several years (after the ThinkPad brand got sold to Lenovo who promptly
started shipping it with spyware) there wasn't really a PC laptop brand with a
rock solid reputation for high build quality.

Lots of companies were putting their badges on inch-thick, mostly plastic 15"
laptops with mediocre touchpads that never delivered the battery life they
promised. And if your employer issued you with a Windows laptop, that was what
you got. Remember laptop bags, when moving a laptop needed padding and a
shoulder strap and pockets to carry your mouse and power brick?

That's not to say there weren't some good products out there - there were some
well designed Vaios, some pretty daring early tablet PCs and so on. But there
wasn't a brand where you could say "Just buy an X" and know that you'd get a
good quality product.

Of course, in recent years a lot of PC manufacturers have stepped up their
game (or maybe I'm just spending more money?) while Apple has had a few
stumbles.

~~~
Stratoscope
> _...the ThinkPad brand got sold to Lenovo who promptly started shipping it
> with spyware..._

That's incorrect. You're referring to SuperFish, which was only on Lenovo's
consumer machines, not on ThinkPad.

[https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/superfish](https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/superfish)

~~~
michaelt
Nonetheless, it cast a big shadow over the brand; you couldn't just advise
someone to buy a Lenovo.

~~~
Stratoscope
Oh, I would never just advise someone to buy a Lenovo. They might end up
choosing some mediocre IdeaPad!

I only advise people to buy ThinkPads, and I make specific recommendations on
what model to get and which options to choose after we talk about their needs.
For example, most people are better off getting a better display instead of a
faster CPU if they don't have the money for both.

Everyone I've advised like this has been delighted with their ThinkPads. If
there is any "shadow" over the brand, it hasn't affected them or me.

------
JDiculous
Great, the butterfly keys were an enormous downgrade in terms of comfort, and
one of the reasons I sold my 2017 Macbook Pro.

But will they still keep that awful touchbar where the Esc and F1-12 are
supposed to be? Then I'll still be passing.

~~~
dominostars
I’m still using my 2012 MacBook Pro desperately hoping they release a new
15-inch line without the Touch Bar. I had bought a MacBook pro with the Touch
Bar and after a few weeks I just hated it more and more and returned it.

I’m still mad about them ditching MagSafe but I can get over that at least.

~~~
Tepix
Same here with the Macbook Pro 2012. I upgraded its SSD cheaply using a mSATA
adapter, something that's not possible with more recent models.

I don't see how this lack of upgradability meets the needs of "Pro" users.

~~~
bigwheeler
Same here. I’m sticking with 2012 until Apple makes a MBP at _least_ as good
as it, from a usability and reliability perspective.

------
shawkinaw
Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard? I like the feel of the
low travel and the clickiness, whenever I use an old style MacBook the keys
feel mushy.

I have had reliability problems though. Mostly I’ve had keys that don’t
respond, but have always been able to fix those with compressed air. But once
I had a sticky key that popped every other time I pressed it, that required a
free Apple repair.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
> Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard?

Yes

~~~
lloeki
>> Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard?

> Yes

No. I like it. To me it feels precise enough for a laptop keyboard, and better
than the good but mushy previous version, with which I could have tactile
feedback but no key event from time to time.

The only issue I have with it is the Damocles sword of reliability (crossing
fingers here, it's been perfectly fine for now) and the up/down arrow keys but
I'm a liberal user of vim as an editor and generally emacs shortcuts so it
doesn't bother me too much.

------
sjwright
That's good news—for the people who are buying laptops next year.

Hopefully the return to scissor switches is combined with some improvements to
the touch bar. My suggestion to Apple would be: put a small physical ESC key
on the far left of the touch bar on 13 inch models, and include both physical
F-keys AND a touch bar on the larger models.

Bonus points: allow people to choose classic F-keys on the 13 inch models as a
BTO option.

~~~
mrweasel
I would love to see Apple make the touch bar an option. If Apple sold two
identical MacBooks models, except for the touch bar, my guess would be that
they would sell significantly more units without the touch bar.

Is anyone seriously benefiting from the touch bar or even using it for
anything other than as a gimmick?

~~~
skohan
IMO it's a liability and an unmitigated failure. It feels like a decision
which came down from the board room, not from UX. Like: how can we make this
product "pop" and at the same time make keyboard replacements produce more
revenue?

The toudchbar is useless without developer adoption, and there will never be
developer adoption if the only people using the feature are those who can
spend a couple thousand dollars on a laptop. It seems to me the non-inclusion
on the new Macbook Air was an admission of failure.

------
aleem
Apple has squandered a lot of its goodwill. It reminds me of my relationship
with Microsoft products. As long as they were shipping, they were making money
in the short term because people were coerced to buy in.

For 5 damn years the Air didn't get a Retina display. Right now, I can't buy
2.8Ghz Macbook Pro unless I get the TouchBar. I can't buy an Air unless I
settle for much lower specs.

The dongles and USB-C are a mess. The 2-meters-at-most charging cables are a
downgrade which will mean shorter battery life due to lesser plugging in. The
lack of Magsafe is a downgrade, they removed a feature. The lack of any port
variety which my 2013 Macbook Air did exceedingly well is a major downgrade.
Consumers must carry a variety of dongles because the laptops don't offer a
variety of ports.

Profits are fine as long as they don't lead to perverse behavior. Apple needs
to stop playing these fucking games and ship some pragmatism.

The Apple of Cook is reminiscent of the Microsoft of Ballmer. He is totally
out of touch with the product -- the very thing that Jobs inculcated.

~~~
parasubvert
See, I use a retina MBP touchbar and really don't agree. Apple has made some
missteps but it's still the best pro laptop for my uses. Over two years with
one replaced keyboard (because I spilled wine on it!) and no sticking keys.

USB-C is awesome. I can reuse all my 3rd party and Apple adapters for my USB-C
peripherals, including tablets and the Nintendo Switch. In retrospect, Magsafe
wasn't that great (comes off too easily). Moving back to older USB ports
really would make no sense. They're obsolete. If you have older peripherals,
get the dongles. We've been using dongles since the VGA/DVI days or Serial/USB
days, so I really don't get the problem with them. Life moves on.

I have a need for HDMI and VGA and Mini DisplayPort and old USB... not to
mention lightning. MUCH rather would have a single standard of multi-port w/
dongles than a mess of fixed ports.

Also, on what planet did anyone have a Magsafe cord over 2m? It was fixed to
the adapter. The 2m usb-c cable is removable, add it with the 1m (edit: 2m!)
power cable and it is a further reach than any prior Mac laptop adapter I've
had, though I suppose third party ones exist.

~~~
labcomputer
> Also, on what planet did anyone have a Magsafe cord over 2m? It was fixed to
> the adapter. The 2m usb-c cable is removable, add it with the 1m power cable
> and it is a further reach than any prior Mac laptop adapter I've had, though
> I suppose third party ones exist.

The power brick had a 2m detachable line-voltage cable, and fixed 2m low
voltage cable. 2 + 2 = 4. I can sit 4m from the wall and charge using only the
power adapter that came with the computer.

I'm also confused why you seem to think that Apple couldn't engineer a low
voltage cable with connectors at both ends. Wouldn't that solve the cable
fraying issue mentioned in your other post?

I see many people making the same argument as you: that USB-C is better
because the cable is detachable from the power brick. Can you help me
understand why you believe that Apple needed to move to USB-C to on the
_computer end_ in order to make a cable removable at the _power supply_ end?

Apple could have easily had the best of both worlds: Put a USB-C plug on the
cable and USB-C receptacle on the power brick. Then put both USB-C and magsafe
receptacles on the computer. The USB-C -> magsafe cable could either be
included with the computer or sold as an optional extra.

~~~
Reason077
> _" Can you help me understand why you believe that Apple needed to move to
> USB-C to on the computer end in order to make a cable removable at the power
> supply end?"_

The thing is, once you make the cable detachable at both ends, it eliminates
the need for MagSafe in the first place.

A USB-C laptop will not go flying across the room if someone trips on the
cable, because the cable will detach at either or both ends before that
happens.

~~~
BurningFrog
I'm not going to test this, but I seriously doubt it.

My 13" MacBook is very light, and I can even lift it half way with the USB-C
cable. Pretty certain it would fly to the floor if my feet swept the cable
that way. Of course, I don't have it set up so that can happen.

~~~
Reason077
Good point about the MacBook - they're much lighter than my MacBook Pro.

I'm surprised you can actually pick it up by the cable, however! The fit of
the power cable in the USB-C ports on my (2017) 13" Pro is very loose - in
fact, sometimes the power cable slips out on it's own with even a small
movement. Maybe this has changed in the 13" MacBook?

~~~
BurningFrog
I can't _fully_ lift it off the table, but it gets pretty close.

The fit of my TOTU dongle cable _is_ pretty tight, I guess, now that I think
about it.

------
b3b0p
I think I'm definitely in the minority here on this community, but I actually
don't mind the keyboard and TouchBar.

The keyboard, although not as good as my Thinkpad, is far superior to many
still and not bad. The problem I have with the keyboard is that it's not a
user replaceable part and is nigh impossible to replace. Since it's the most
used component arguably and wears and has moving parts and is exposed to the
real world being able to for example like my Thinkpad of past take it out or
replace it or clean it. Similar case could be said for the battery.

The Touch Bar I don't mind and like. Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works
better for me anyway since I have small hands with short reach. I look at it
as an evolution of the finger print reader you would often see in previous
years on other laptops. Plus, it's programmable, which you would think the
creative and entrepreneur bunch here would love and find many hacks and ways
to take advantage of. I guess not.

I do look forward to any changes Apple decides though. The only Apple keyboard
and computer I hated was the Titanium PowerBook. The keyboard on that and the
fragility of the whole computer was terrible. My favorite so far as been the
Aluminum PowerBook G4 12 and 17. Followed by the first MacBook Pro.

~~~
jen20
We likely are in the minority, but I find the 2016-19 era MacBook Pro to be
the only laptop I can comfortably type on all day without triggering RSI pain.
I also make extensive use of the Touch Bar. I will think twice about buying an
updated machine.

~~~
b3b0p
I won't think twice, I'll be jumping right in on the new one, I think at
least. Assuming it only gets better from here on out. I'm still deathly scared
of the battery becoming worthless as well as my keys stop working reliably.
The 'L' right now on my 2017/2018 MacBook Pro might need an Apple Store visit
soon and I have had a keyboard cover on it since the split second I took it
out of the box. I don't feel safe without the cover until the keyboard is a
replaceable part again.

~~~
jen20
A counterpoint: I have not had an issue with my 2017 model despite never
having had a case or keyboard cover, and travelling weekly with it. If you
want a laptop with a replaceable keyboard I would look away from the Apple
ecosystem, it’s quite obvious that is never coming back regardless of any
design updates.

------
dkersten
Too late for me. I've already jumped ship and the effort of moving back isn't
worth it. I still have and use apple products, but I've no interest in buying
any more now, thanks to the shoddy experience I had with their more recent
products. I also have no interest in airpods, so a new iphone is out too.
Apple won me over quite late and then within about two years lost me again. It
made me sad, because I really liked their products during that time,
especially the multi-device experience, but I now already use too many non-
Apple devices for that to matter and don't care anymore now.

~~~
vimslayer
What are you using now? I have a ThinkPad T470p and really like it. The
keyboard feels really great, although the fn key placement is a bit annoying.

~~~
dkersten
Mixture between a desktop, a cheap laptop (which I plan to replace with an X1
Carbon or a Thinkpad isn’t he coming months, although I haven’t researched it
yet) and an old Mac Mini when I want to use mac software. OS-wise, I use
Manjaro Linux.

------
d3ckard
Don't understand the problem. I like new keyboard more than the previous one,
I'm indifferent to touchbar and mapping escape to capslock was the best thing
ever. The only thing I hate is keys getting stuck, but it actually stopped
happening(2017 model). I wouldn't like to come back to old keyboard now.

~~~
WAHa_06x36
The problem is that the keyboard breaks very easily, at random.

~~~
nottorp
If you're always in a clean environment, the keyboard is ok.

I've used 3 consecutive mac laptops on the same balcony, open air. The one
from 2010 and the one from 2014 are just fine thank you. The one from 2018
already has keyboard problems and it hasn't even been a year since i bought
it.

So yes, the keyboard is complete and utter shit.

------
patrec
Apart from reliability concerns (mine hasn't failed yet), the macbook 12"
butterfly incarnation has become my favorite mobile keyboard now. Other
keyboards, like my old-gen macbook pro feel mushy in comparison now, and at
least for the ultra-svelte macbook 12" the obsession with thinness and
lightness does pay off. I wonder if we will see a wave of butterfly nostalgia
when the new design comes out.

------
blauditore
I see many people complain about Apple products recently, but very few
actually moving away to alternatives. It seems many are caught in the comfort
zone of that walled garden, not to say locked in. This is why I started
avoiding Apple products many years ago. Watching things evolve "from the
outside" now I find it sad and funny at the same time.

~~~
torstenvl
It is possible for something to be simultaneously (a) crappy; (b) expensive;
and (c) the best option available.

Prior to 2006, I was a hardcore Linux (and then FreeBSD) fan, but I had to use
Windows for a lot of work- and school-related tasks. When Mac switched to x86,
I felt less nervous about investing in it, knowing I could go back to
Windows/Linux if I wanted.

When I switched, what I came to realize was that Apple - and Jobs specifically
- was mostly not content to just be the best option available. They thought
through the last little details. They added accelerometers to hard drive
enclosures to stop the disk if the laptop fell. They made power cables
attached by magnets so you wouldn't send your laptop flying if the cord was
pulled. They had a philosophy that the computer should Just Work and - for the
most part - their execution showed how dedicated they were to that.

Apple is no longer in that league. Hardware failures, design failures,
software failures including goto fail and root password vulnerabilities...
Apple simply isn't a perfectionist company anymore. Sure, there is a litany of
"What about..." comparisons you can make from times Jobs got defensive instead
of being a perfectionist, but this is different. It used to be the exception.
Now it's the rule.

That's why people are upset. Something that used to be reliably great is now
merely better than the rest - a low bar.

For many, there isn't a better option to turn to. If you want a mostly hassle-
free Unix experience with wide COTS software support, macOS is your best
choice. But it's a lot sloppier than it used to be and that justifiably causes
some angst.

------
forgingahead
Great! Now all they need to do is bring back MagSafe and 2 USB ports and all
will be well again

~~~
megablast
> and 2 USB ports and all will be well again

The pro has 4 usb ports.

~~~
mschuster91
GP means real USB ports not the horror that is USB-C

~~~
thiht
What's wrong with usb c ?

~~~
mschuster91
Most stuff people use USB for still have the good old USB-A adapters: mice,
keyboards, USB sticks/other drives, card readers, LTE dongles.

The things that actually need the massive speed benefits from USB-C (10G
network adapters and PCIe enclosures) can have USB-C, fine with me, but please
don't force users to buy and especially lose adapters just to be able to use
their existing stuff. And no need to make shit ever more expensive and
complex, a mouse won't ever need anything from USB-C.

~~~
iSnow
I have a hard time understanding people that just keep complaining about the
new USB-C ports instead of just buying a handful of those
([https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CVX3516](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CVX3516))
and permanently attaching them to the mouse/keyboard cables.

------
hownottowrite
My late 2017 MacBook Pro just started exhibiting signs of the butterfly
effect. Not looking forward to giving up the machine for a couple days only to
have it fail again. For me, the touchbar is also useless except as an annoying
feature that tries to reactivate Siri or suddenly creates a new document when
I overkey. Such a poor design.

It’s sad because other than the fact that I hate it I actually love the
machine.

------
suprgeek
Finally! Now please also admit that the TouchBar is a colossal failure that
only a few niche users grew to like and either:

1) Ditch it completely - return the Fn key row back but add button for Touch
Id (a. la the new MacBook Air) OR

2) Invent a better version with Haptic Feedback so that Touch typists get a
FEEL for hitting keys instead of moronically having to look down to ensure
that they did not F* things up

------
throwaway9d0291
Now just get rid of the touchbar and I'll consider using a Mac again.

~~~
worldsayshi
Have you actually used it though? I find it kind of useful. Not super useful
but at least slightly more useful than gimmicky.

~~~
dominostars
Not the OP but yes I’ve used it and yes I hated it. 95% gimmick and
frustrating as hell to use. Had to return my laptop and I’ve been desperately
waiting for them to remove it for a 15-inch pro.

------
holografix
So I guess now we know why Ive got fired?

~~~
gourou
More like gently pushed out, he's still consulting for them. I hope they
revert other changes: bring back magsafe and USB ports

~~~
hyperbovine
The "consulting" thing is pure window-dressing IMO. I have several friends who
work for Apple, and from talking to them (+ everything I've ever read about
their culture) either you're in the tent or you're out. Outsiders have no
meaningful role in their process.

~~~
skohan
It really makes me appreciate how valuable it is to have a physical mute
button on every device which makes sound. Especially when it gets hung for a
few seconds, and I have to manually mute from the task bar using the cursor.

------
brailsafe
I'm really hoping for materials improvements across the board on the next 13"
MBP. I haven't had that many issues with the keyboard, though do find it a
little loud. However, I find that the aluminum scratches too easily, gets
stained quickly, and the screen coating is very vulnerable to damage from both
the keyboard pressing against it and just bout anything touching it. Likewise,
while I happen to have only been using it exclusively as a portable laptop
with not much plugged into it, the thought of trying to plug this into the
wall, a monitor, and an external HD at the same time is infuriating. Even if I
had a USB-C to displayport connector, I'd be out of ports. Couldn't even plug
in a Logitech wireless mouse at the same time. It's pretty upsetting that I
spent so much money and have more constraints than I did before.

~~~
djaychela
You've pretty much summed up where I am with my 2017 13" MBP. It was a huge
purchase for me and I felt it was an investment at the time (I'm spending a
few years learning coding skills having been made redundant), but having had
to have the screen replaced because of keybaord damage, and having ugly-
looking wear around the thunderbolt ports - all of this on a laptop that I
treat very well, and which had had a hardshell case since day one and always
travels in a padded slip case - I can't say I'm impressed at all.

If it really was a 'pro' piece of kit, I wouldn't need to put a sheet of A4
paper between the screen and keyboard to avoid the glass getting damaged every
time I shut it (it's now out of Apple Care warranty, and another screen would
be £500). I actually like the feel of the keyboard (although it is noisy), and
I love the trackpad - anything else feels like a cheap toy in comparison now.

I've needed on occasion to use it with external hardware - soundcard, dongle
for Cubase, USB memory, etc., and it's a messy pain. I also have a 2010 15"
MBP I was recently gifted, and it's better overall because it's solid,
reliable and has lots of ports, and doesn't need to be treated with kid
gloves. Yes, it has the procesing power of a ZX Spectrum in comparison to the
2017, but I can live with that. It's become my travelling laptop instead of
the 2017 because it's not a hothouse flower.

I don't know if this trend was solely Jony Ive's, but I sincerely hope they
will make actual 'Pro' machines in the future.

However, I shall not be buying one. This cost me a fortune (twice as much as
any laptop I've bought in the past), and it's once bitten, twice shy, I'm
afraid.

------
candyman
I hope this is true. I was about to replace my 2013 MBP with a used 2015 or
shift over to Windows. (The Lenovo Carbon has a great keyboard.) I can wait
until next year to see if Apple really does the right thing but if not - it's
Lenovo for the new machine.

~~~
qrbLPHiKpiux
The only reason I passed on the carbon is because of the screen. Apple has
spoiled me with their glass screens.

------
bg0
I feel like I'm the only one that actually preferred the new butterfly keys
over the old one; even after some keys got sticky and I had to get them
replaced.

I was able to get a few more 2 year old internal parts replaced while it
happened so it was pretty worth it IMO.

------
deepaksurti
All said and done, the problem with butterfly keyboards is the reliability. We
don't associate 'unreliability' with Apple devices and screwing up on the
keyboard is a big screwup because for those whom it won't work, it just makes
your laptop unusable. Hence the justified pushback.

That did not happen with removal of CD drive, adding USB C only ports,
removing magsafe. All these cause some painful transitions, they did not make
your laptop unusable.

FWIW, I have 2018 MBP and so far the keyboard has worked fine, though I don't
enjoy the lack of tactile feedback; I can see the perspective of those who
bought it and the butterfly became kaput.

------
AHTERIX5000
If Apple couldn't fix it with two iterations there might be fundamental
problems with the design. Good riddance.

------
ctime
Avid user of Apple gear for many years and so happy they are throwing out that
garbage. Ive never had the displeasure of actually using the butterfly
keyboard on my daily driver (holding out with mid-2015 MBP 15) and dont plan
on upgrading to a new Apple laptop if I have to deal with the
touchbar/keyboard non—sense.

You’d think with the thousands of skus they ship today they could figure out
most people would be happy with a refreshed 15 with 2 USB-A and 2 USB-C ports
(I can live w/o Magsafe)

~~~
iSnow
If you are an Apple user for many years, you will know that they won't go back
to USB-A. And actually, that's a good thing.

------
sandinmyjoints
I was prepared to hate this keyboard when I bought a 2019 MBP bc my beloved
2015 MBP just wasn’t cutting it conpute-wise anymore, but...I don’t. It’s not
bad, maybe I even slightly prefer it to the old one. I have experienced some
sticking on the “l” key and that IS super annoying and needs to be solved. But
the functional experience is...good. I miss MagSafe and usb-a and the touchbar
is worthless so I’ve got gripes but to my surprise the keyboard really isn’t
one of them!

------
Dunedan
Maybe they'll use that opportunity to also fix the cursor key layout to
resemble an upside down T again.

------
dreamcompiler
I'm still nursing along my 2011 MBP. It's my work truck. Everything in it has
been replaced or upgraded, but it still works well. The point is that it was
_possible_ to upgrade it myself. I won't buy another Apple product unless it
has that feature.

Oh, and no dongles necessary.

~~~
reneherse
I was doing the same until last week, happily chugging along on my pet project
when my 2011 15" MBP screen went white as a ghost. Diagnostics all point
toward a problem with the GPU; apparently that generation has a known defect
that's only (temporarily) repairable by replacing the logic board. A repair
too costly for me to justify.

My recommendation would be to avoid graphically intense work if you hope to
continue using the machine for a long time.

I was seriously bummed when my machine died. Fortunately I was able to buy one
of the very last Apple refurbed 2015 MBPs, which is still user upgradable to
some extent, and avoids all the horrendous design trade-offs of the more
recent generations.

Best of luck keeping the old machine going!

------
Medicalidiot
I recently bought a MBP, my first ever Mac, and it is absolutely amazing.
Smooth, fast, secure, and the trackpad is an incredible experience. My only
significant complaint I have of it is the keyboard.

If Apple replaces only the keyboard, the MBP is the undisputed best laptop
available today.

------
wintorez
They only need to drop touchbar, bring back magsafe, and then we'll be back to
sanity!

~~~
trynumber9
I'm still using a dual core. Apple thinks if you want a high end laptop, you
want a touch bar. I don't, I played with it and returned it. I vastly prefer
the real keys.

------
DrScientist
Yeah! I really don't like the current keyboards.

Also while your at it - produce a proper Pro laptop!

Worry less about the thinness and \- add better thermal control \- more memory
\- more storage. \- extra port or too so less requirements for dongles. \-
option for matt rather than shiny displays \- old style trackpads with
physical click - the new ones give me cognitive dissonance

In terms of touch bar - it's mixed. I really miss the physical escape key (
but then I'm an emacs user ), but quite like the context dependence of the
rest - as day to day escape is the only one that's really memory mapped.

So can't we have a physical escape key and the rest be touch bar?

~~~
FabHK
> produce a proper Pro laptop!

Hmm, I'm afraid they listen and produce a $15k laptop... But ok, the MacBook
Air is still in the lineup.

~~~
DrScientist
Exactly - road warriors, who want lightness and style ( sales and senior
management ) over substance can get an Air. Serious users - developers,
scientists, artists - want a serious machine.

------
EnderMB
I'd be interested in MBP sales figures from the batch of MacBooks with the new
keyboard/touch bar.

From my perspective, despite a whole host of issues, very few people seem to
have actually moved away from Mac's. I hear a lot of grumbling, but you only
need to look at this thread to see people claim that the MBP is the best
professional-grade laptop available today, when the issues with the OS, the
keyboard, and the touch bar indicate that this hasn't been the case for years.

I assumed that for this reason Apple would have stuck with their design
choice, and would iterate over time - unless there has been a significant
enough drop in sales.

~~~
kevinmchugh
There's been room in the budget for me to upgrade my work MBP for about 6
months. I haven't considered it. I've got the old keyboard and I've seen what
my coworkers have to deal with.

I've also convinced my wife to wait on replacing her decade-old MacBook.

~~~
EnderMB
Hmm, that's probably also a big part of it. A good professional-grade laptop
can last for years. I've had my 1st gen Surface Book for about three years now
and it's as fast as the day I bought it. Unless something breaks, I have zero
reason to upgrade to anything different.

I'm in the same boat as you at work. I've got an older MBP, and despite a dent
in the screen and some trackpad issues I would rather stay with this model
than upgrade to a newer, inferior one.

------
edouard-harris
I wonder how much this change (if true) is correlated to Jony Ive's departure.

------
sersi
Great! Maybe next year I can finally get a new mbp :) I've been staying on
2013 mbp because of that but it's getting long in the tooth (plus affected by
staingate but apparently too late for Apple to fix)

------
ruethewhirl
About time, been wanting get a MacBook pro to replace my 2011 MacBook Air but
wasn't going to get one with that keyboard. Will still wait a while to see if
new design is any good.

~~~
wiredfool
Yep, same here. I broke down and got a used 2015 MBP when the new Gen Airs
came out, because I needed something and just couldn't handle the butterfly
keyboard. ($day_job machine is a 2017 MBP, and 95% of the time, I use an
external keyboard/monitor)

------
sergiotapia
You can pry my early 2015 macbook air from my cold dead hands! Easily the best
laptop I have ever used, sturdy, cool to touch, lightweight, keyboard is
fantastic and never hurts to use for a long time.

I want Apple to release this same model with updated specs, why ruin a great
formula by adding touchbar which I never ever ever use. It's like the R&D
department/marketing had to use their budget or lose it and they cooked
something up which made no sense but looked cool in promos.

------
peacelilly
Thank you Apple. This was needed! I have a bricked 2017 MBP that I don't want
to fix. It's too expensive to fix and not worth it breaking again.

------
bartq
I own MacBook 12 inch with 2nd gen of this keyboard from 2017 and actually
like it more than on MacBook Pros that I got from a company I worked for. It
seems to be a bit different, like click is smaller and is quieter. In MacBook
12 it matches whole laptop philosophy of being the thinest and lightest and
even has smaller trackpad that you doesn't accidentally touch while typing.

------
bcheung
Apple has a history of really bad design ideas in my opinion.

Anyone remember the older Mac towers. Whose bright idea was it to stick razor
sharp edges on the handles to pick up a 30 lbs box?

Or requiring people to use a metal file on their MBP so they aren't resting
their wrists on a razor sharp edge.

Several years later, it is still a pain having to use dongles to plug in USB
devices.

Now give us back the escape key too.

------
kuon
It's too late, I sailed away. It took me a year to have a good linux setup,
not switching back.

But I'm glad they finally admitted the problem.

------
therealbilly
I have the 2017 MacBook Pro. It did take a while to get use to the keyboard.
Now I find other keyboards are mushy by comparison. On the touchbar, never
really thought much about it. Seems to work okay for me. I'm amused by some of
the folks that just seem to hate the later MacBook Pro's. Their hatred seems
misplaced and over-wrought.

------
lostgame
I think one of the bigger failures with the Touch Bar is that it's not
available for a desktop computer - it would be far more advantageous for
developers to support it in useful ways and invest developer time in it, if we
could buy an external one, especially for an iMac Pro, for instance, where it
could be included. My two cents.

------
commandersaki
While good recognition in the flaws of the keyboard mechanics, this still
doesn't fix: \- no esc key (ok fine, ctrl-[) \- oversized trackpad where palms
in resting position actuate it \- the "fat" keys with little to no gaps \- the
weird oversized and awkward arrow keys

Seriously, just go back to 2015 keyboard/trackpad.

------
xattt
I sardonically worry that they will offer a touch screen keyboard instead.

~~~
afandian
The Lenovo Yoga Book is a hinged tablet. Bottom half is a glass surface with
both capacitive touch and Wacom digitiser. It comes with a Wacom pen, which
has a swappable ballpoint pen nib so you can draw on paper and have it
digitised. There's a backlit silkscreen-type stencil that shines through a
(permanent) keyboard layout. And touchpad. So, it's touch-screen typing on a
fixed keyboard layout. And you can swap between pen-digitiser and keyboard
mode. A crazy set of features. I was very excited to buy it.

They keyboard is very hard to use. The pen is laggy and there's no really
useful Android software. I use it exclusively for watching videos. Go figure.

Still, I'm glad they tried it. There's too much device monoculture IMHO.

[https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-
ta...](https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-
tablet/Lenovo-YB1-X90L/p/ZZITZTOYB1L)

~~~
ivankolev
The bit about the swappable pen tip picked my interest, cool feature! As an
avid believer that pen input is the most flexible way to express your thought
process, I find it a bit of a lost art though, people born in the new
millennium just wont spend the time to learn to write cursive. I went through
most of the Note generation from Samsung and the SPen is getting really close
to the look and feel of writing on paper. There's a Google hand writing
keyboard for Android that is really good, in fact I am writing this using it.
Still, it looks like it will continue to be a niche functionality at best.

~~~
gmueckl
About 15 years ago during my studies I dreamt of a tablet device with pen
input and hand writing recognition for advanced maths. I was writing a lot
during my physics lectures but almost no plain text. I would still like to
have such a device, but also with a CAS integrated with the handwriting
recognition. This would take the pain out of typing stuff into a CAS using
obscure syntax.

~~~
panda88888
IMO iPad Pro with the appropriate software would be perfect. However, I think
handwriting recognition for math might be too much a niche for developer to
focus and polish into software that’s a pleasure to use.

~~~
gmueckl
And recognizing math is hard. That is a huge set of symbols (sometimes with
semantically meaningful "tiny" variations like doubled up vertical lines on an
R) and their size and relative positioning carries a lot of meaning.
Handwriting is a walk in the park compared to that.

------
baybal2
I was on board with a company trying to make a new type of keyboard switch in
2017. The venture folded, but I'd say not for technical reasons.

They used a parallelogram mechanism in addition to a spring to provide
quadratic easing in force feedback.

Nobody tried the same scheme since then as I know.

------
bitL
I actually think that ASUS ZenBook Pro Duo is now much more innovative than
recent MacBooks and I'll likely get one next year for a "travel Deep Learning"
workstation with a great design (resembles classic 8-bit computers a bit).

------
syadegari
Cannot wait to hear what they're going to say about "reinventing keyboard"!

------
bitL
Apple needs to invest in force field research to ship a flat keyboard with
keys simulated by force field, keeping fingers away! That will be the
realization of Jony Ive's modernist aluminium/glass plate dreams. No more
moving parts!

------
doe88
The complexity and cost of butterfly keyboards comparatively to traditional
keyboards, reliables and cheaps just reminds me a bit an article I read on the
development of Electromagnetic Catapults in US Navy (hard to build,
astronomical costs).

~~~
cglace
Are you referring to railguns?

------
musicale
Whenever I type on my original/2012 "retina" MacBook Pro it is a revelation.
When I type on the 2016 model... I try to use an external keyboard.

I'm pretty sure the 2015 non-butterfly MBP was the best laptop Apple has made
to date.

------
envolt
Please bring back the MagSafe magnetic connector, so I can upgrade my MacBook

------
Calamitous
Am I the only person that would love a thicker laptop with more features from
Apple?

I don't need thin. Thin doesn't excite me. More battery would excite me. More
ports. More anything but thin.

------
nottorp
I wonder how much this will affect sales between now and the 2020 model. As a
2018 owner, I strongly recommend everyone who can to hold out until they
change the keyboard...

------
dboreham
Shout out for the current generation Surface keyboard (both full size, and,
surprisingly also the Go). A thin and light keyboard that is almost pleasing
to use.

------
beowulfey
Are the butterflies justifiably thinner than the older chicklet keyboard? I
feel like there is no way they made a measurable difference... But maybe it
did.

~~~
shawnz
0.5mm travel versus 1.3mm travel, so less than half.

------
peeters
It was the reason I bought an XPS 13 instead of MBP when I got a new laptop.
Wonder how many advocates they lost amongst the professional segment.

~~~
Cthulhu_
There was (in my filter bubble) a pretty big wave of people moving away (or at
least looking) after Apple introduced their touchbar models; I wouldn't be
surprised if they felt that in their numbers. Or if they didn't because lower
volume but higher price can even one another out, I guess.

------
epanchin
I don’t own a Mac, but on behalf of anyone who has ever shared a room or train
with that click clackedy mess, thank you Apple.

------
neckeri
Touchbar:

Needs to always be on

Needs haptic feedback

~~~
jclardy
Also: Either shorten it by one button and keep physical escape key, or move it
up and return the entire half height function row.

~~~
sjwright
Do the former on 13 inch models and the latter for 15+ inch models.

------
josefrichter
the keyboard is actually awesome, when it works properly. I really love it.
The short key travel is great, and using older macbook keyboards now feels
like going back to a typewriter.

However, I am also one of those who's taking his 2 months old macbook to
repair shop, coz one of the keys just stops clicking and becomes rubbery.

------
nishanmiranda
Yes finally. I still haven't updated my work laptop which is 2015 Macbook Pro
because of the Butterfly keyboard

------
Justsignedup
Better switches, a smaller mouse pad, and destroy the touch bar. Let's go back
to 2014 and be happy again.

------
oldmantaiter
Thiiss is reaelley good newes, my thirid genereatiiion keyeeboard . stiill has
. isssuees

------
NoblePublius
If I can’t get discrete graphics WITHOUT a Touch Bar in October, I’m buying a
Surface.

------
pjmlp
Finally!!!

I don't mind the touchbar, rather the quality where dust particles break it
down.

~~~
submeta
Touchbar: Never use it. Reprogrammed my keys to have Esc mapped on Caps (if
it‘s hit alone) and Ctrl (it if is hit in combination with other keys).

~~~
pixard
Mind sharing what you used to get this Esc behavior? (single vs combo hit)

~~~
rectang
I'd like to know as well.

I've got [capslock] mapped to [control] via system prefs already, and I'm not
willing to give that up. As a Vim user, that puts me in a quandary for how to
deal with the [escape] key should I ever move to a touchbar MBP, and is one of
the reasons I'm still typing this on a 2012 MBPr. I live inside Vim all day
every day.

------
baybal2
And at the same time, Dell switches its XPS line to butterfly switches...

------
stunt
They really need to give a proper apologize to all customers for it.

------
sansnomme
Apple does have a patent for glass keyboard that uses haptic.

~~~
kkarakk
jesus christ, don't let apple bring that evil into the world on a macbook. on
an ipad maybe but if it's on a mac i'll have to carry around my bt keyboard
everywhere and that's no bueno

------
rmjdjdj
I took multiple days to get my hackintosh running. The only reason I kept
going was because I didn’t want to buy a MB that could break down anytime and
take days to repair. I am glad they are finally switching the keyboard.

------
firepoet
This is good news! Sad to say I can’t buy another Mac laptop until the Touch
Bar is gone, too. Sad, too, because that means I’m stuck with Linux, which is
much higher maintenance than Mac OS. ;-)

------
fastball
Buy a used 2015 MBP to tide you over until 2020.

------
intopieces
The hand-wringing and breathless condemnation around this keyboard borders on
hysterics, so I will be glad when a new design shifts the criticism to
something more interesting.

------
TheAdamist
Next up, extending the touchbar into a a touchscreen keyboard.

No moving parts, even thinner, far more expensive, looks trendy, absolutely
unusable, it's the apple March of progress.

------
gigatexal
Yeah!

The new MacBook Pro is looking mighty attractive now.

------
natch
Waiting to replace my 2013 MBP someday... it has been wonderful (it has the
old keyboard style) but please Apple, make it soon.

------
vectorEQ
only once i had a mac keyboard, and it didnt work on my mac. good stuff. no
suprise here...

------
hyko
I like the butterfly keyboards.

~~~
yreg
Me too, for the first few days, before they inevitably start acting up.

------
consultSKI
The glory days are long gone.

------
lettergram
... but still the touchbar.

------
mschuster91
Now make it thicker, add decent CPU/GPU combos and an SD card reader for us
photographers...

------
strikelaserclaw
thank god, the butterfly keyboard sucks.

------
StreamBright
What about missing jack and hdmi ports?

------
nailer
This is Vox blogspam.

Original source from the article: [https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/04/kuo-new-
keyboard-macbook-air-...](https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/04/kuo-new-keyboard-
macbook-air-pro/)

dang could you update it?

Edit: not sure why this is being downvoted, this is literally the source URL
quoted in the Verge article and Vox sites (including this one) are frequently
filled with clickbait.

------
tzakrajs
I’m a tiny bit upset. I really liked the keys becoming lower profile. I don’t
get any joy out of expending extra energy depressing buttons. For example,
mechanical keyboards give me extreme RSI wrist pain from straining to push
down all of the switches. Secretly I was hoping Apple would create a haptic
capacitive touch keyboard with a display behind it.

~~~
peeters
Is it possible you were thinking you had to bottom out the keys on a
mechanical keyboard? Good switches have a fairly long travel, but it's
important to note they're not designed to be bottomed out, they're designed to
be pushed to the activation point and then released. Where that activation
point is may be harder to detect on some switches, but "clicky" switches like
Cherry Blues have a strong tactile indicator.

~~~
tzakrajs
I totally agree about bottoming out. It's more about the amount of force
needed to trigger the switch, which on a capactive touch would be 0. I use
o-rings too to decrease the length of the throw and to make bottoming out
quieter and less impactful if it happens on accident. Mechanical keyboards
just don't agree with my hands and wrists sadly.

------
areejs
Well good riddance. They have become ridiculously expensive

------
Ecolog
Anybody still buying MacBooks doesn't know what they are doing... A Lenovo
Thinkpad would destroy it in every way imaginable, but marketing is more
important that real world function

~~~
cuchoi
Some people (like me) still prefer MacBooks due to software rather than
hardware. Building a Hackintosh is not pain-free and, although the Linux
experience has improved a lot, is still not at the same level.

------
pxlpshr
The comments in this thread are hilarious. I guess some of you all have
forgotten about that can of duster you’ve relied on for the last 30+ years to
clean the muck from just about every keyboard. I don’t understand the rage...

I use my MBP just as much as anyone, the butterfly keys feel so much better
than the old clickity keys and I’ve gotten use to the TouchBar. F Keys we’re
useless to me unless they were remapped, and now the TouchBar gives me a lot
of options for customizations.

~~~
gdubs
Been kind of my experience too. Bought my wife a rose gold entry level MacBook
a couple of years back and, it’s one of the nicest laptops I’ve ever had. I
have a MacBook Pro for work and the touchbar doesn’t bother me. Screen is
beautiful, plenty powerful.

I’ll throw one crit out there though: the wireless mouse on my iMac Pro. When
it runs out of batteries you have to plug it in, but it plugs in on the
bottom. Wired mice have existed since the invention of the mouse, so it’s
pretty frustrating that you can’t just plug it in to the front and have it act
like a wired mouse while charging. This was clearly done so that the mouse
could have its svelte shape. Sigh.

------
Razengan
I personally love the Touch Bar and I really like the quiet, soft, short-
travel keys on the 2015+ MacBooks. Other than a "rigid" cursor key on the
first-generation 12" MacBook, I haven't experienced any unresponsive keys,
definitely not on the Pros, yet (though that may be because I always use a
protector or "keyboard condom" to prevent finger stains and smudges.)

I do not miss MagSafe or the headphone jack either. I prefer thinness and
lightness. I'm one of the people who have been satisfied with Macs for a long
time and haven't considered switching to anything else, and despite what the
loud minority may make it seem like, I'm clearly not alone:

[http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/09/new-macbook-pro-has-
outs...](http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/09/new-macbook-pro-has-outsold-all-
competitors/)

~~~
monsieurbanana
I personally think the new keyboards are atrocious, but that's your opinion
and I respect it. Until the "loud minority" part.

Your love for Apple is blinding you, I doubt they would shell out the money
for a replacement program if it was truly just a "loud minority".

~~~
Razengan
They have replacement programs for other issues, like faulty batteries and
logic boards, regardless of whether many people are affected or a few.

