

LA sides with taxi companies, sends cease-and-desists to Lyft, Uber, and Sidecar - chwitta9000
http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/06/24/37904/la-sides-with-taxi-companies-sends-cease-and-desis/

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untog
I feel a little sorry for Uber being bunched in with Lyft and Sidecar- the
latter two use a sort of nebulous "rideshare" concept to skirt around being
considered taxi cabs, but Uber uses licensed drivers, as far as I can tell.

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ngoel36
This infuriates me beyond belief. How is Uber not in _everybody 's_ best
interests? The end-user experience is clearly far superior, I can't find a
soul who can argue with that (except for the understandable price differential
which will diminish with scale). I haven't personally talked to a driver for
either service, but the experience for them has to be better. Uber, as a
private company, can optimize for extraneous costs, ultimately leaving a
larger margin to be paid to the drivers. But I digress, why make bold claims
as to which is better, I just wish municipalities would let the free market
decide. Let the boys play, goddammit.

In a magical world where I could change all city cabs into Ubers, I can't
imagine there would be too many complaints.

The situation reminds me of local food merchants in my parents' hometown in
India. They fucking hate Walmart, and they've got every city official in their
pockets to make sure Walmart (or any large grocery store) ever lays a brick
there. They hate the fact that Walmart will have lower, standardized prices;
better, consistently fresh produce; well-trained, honest workers. They hate
that Walmart might kill their business. What they don't realize is if they
just went and worked for Walmart, their life might be better than it is while
running their own shitty little tomato stand. Where they have to work their
ass off all summer so their wives can buy a winter jacket. Where one little
tomato pest can kill their entire crop, and in turn, their kid's chance of
going to school that year. Where another tomato farmer can undercut their
prices and move their cart next door whenever they want.

It's a bummer that some people will always be resistant to change.

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tptacek
It's easy to show how Uber isn't in _everyone 's_ best interests: cabs are
required to service well-defined metro areas at a standardized fare; in return
for agreeing to operate under a set of regulations that makes them part of the
transit fabric of a city, regulated cab services is granted a monopoly.

That system doesn't work if cabs are forced to compete at a disadvantage with
other services that don't operate under the same constraints.

~~~
enoptix
For cab service, Uber rides are serviced by already existing metro cab
companies. The Uber cabs in here in Chicago were already licensed cabs, but
now they can get dispatched via Uber. How is that any different from say, a
cab company deciding to dispatch its drivers with their own in-house iPhone
app? Do you think that would that be allowed under these regulations?

~~~
tptacek
The deal Chicago has with taxi cabs is that street hails are reserved for
regulated medallion taxi cabs; in exchange for that, the medallion owners are
required to maintain vehicles, insurance, and coverage areas, and are required
to comply with the billing procedures set up by Chicago.

Uber currently uses Chicago tax company drivers directly, but doesn't comply
with the regulations the medallion owners are required to comply with --- for
instance, Uber adds 20% to the fares, which is something cab companies can't
do. Uber's defense for this is that using an iPhone to get a cab isn't a
"street hail"; the cab companies argue that they're equivalent. We'll see who
wins.

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chwitta9000
Sorry, but I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for these LA cabbies when
every time I try to use my credit card to pay they act like I just skipped out
on the fare.

~~~
akama
Something very similar happened to me the other day. A cab driver refused to
let me pay by credit card. He said that he loses money on every ride that uses
a credit card.

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chwitta9000
I've been told by cabbies that it takes the cab companies a week or so to
process (at least in LA) and that's why the drivers hate it so much.

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sdoowpilihp
These kind of actions on the part of existing taxi and limo services are to be
expected. When a large and powerful group can't win on merit or the quality of
their product, they will attempt to win through any other means, including
litigation or politics. This move reeks of desperation, and if I were any of
the three companies mentioned, I would see this as a glass half full scenario.
Time to lawyer up.

~~~
rayiner
That's one explanation of the situation (and there is certainly an element of
that).

The other element of the situation is that people use litigation and politics
to protect existing bargains. Cabs are regulated, for various reasons. Cities
use them as an extension of their public transit infrastructure, and impose
restrictions like requiring them to service the whole city, instead of just
the profitable neighborhoods. In return, the cab companies are given a
monopoly.

So if the cities allow Uber to skim off all the premium business, without
requiring Uber to serve the sketchy/marginal neighborhoods, then that's the
city going back on its side of the bargain. The cabs can't "win on merit" when
they're playing with one hand tied behind their back.

The fair thing to do is either enforce the existing monopoly and keep out
Uber, or alternatively to get rid of the monopoly and the regulations too.

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owenjones
Doesn't the fact the Uber drivers come to the passenger alleviate that fact?
Also, anecdotally, from experience living in bad neighborhoods in my city taxi
cabs are generally less likely to visit.

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tptacek
Have you looked into whether your local cab companies are required to service
every area of the city? It's illegal for an NYC cab to refuse service within
NYC's regulated area; it's also _illegal_ for them to, for instance, drop you
off short of your destination --- my wife found this out when her cab to LGA
dropped her off halfway there because he had to make an appointment, and an
NYC cop immediately stopped and ticketed him.

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jlgreco
> _an NYC cop immediately stopped and ticketed him._

Did she have to alert the cop to what happened, or is there a system in place
that notifies police when this happens?

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tptacek
Neither. The cop just noticed her getting out and immediately trying to flag
another cab.

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kkowalczyk
If you have a personal story on how a law was violated and given the fact it
was on books for decades, it clearly is ineffectively enforced (taxi drivers
apparently prefer to violate the law regularly with a small chance of being
ticketed and I can't blame them if that's more profitable for them).

If only there was a system where you could call a cab exactly to where you
are, monitor its position while it arrives in real time, and one that would
drop you off exactly where you wanted to go. A system where you could comment
on the quality of the driver after each ride so that the bad ones are
permanently kicked off.

Wait, there is. It's called Uber.

In this case self-regulation and competition work better than government
regulations. Uber has self-interest in making sure they work well or else
people will move to a better system.

Having government erect and then enforce the laws is a costly externality of
the taxi system - police officers are paid with your money too.

~~~
sehrope
The rules for NYC taxis are known to everyone that has lived in their for a
non trivial amount of time. Tourists might not be familiar with them but any
red blooded New Yorker would definitely remind the cabbie they have to go to
the final destination.

A more commonly abused rule is that cabbies cannot refuse a destination but
many will do so if it's in the outer boroughs (imagine Manhattan to Queens or
Brooklyn) as they're not guaranteed a fare on the return. At night many will
ask you where you're going before you get in to weed this out specifically
(illegal). Again, anybody who's lived in the city long enough knows to just
ignore the driver and get inside before instructing him where you're going.

I've heard stories that there are undercover folks working for the city that
test out the cabbies and fine them if they refuse a legit fare.

~~~
loumf
Also, it says it in the cab. This is how I, as a New Yorker, first learned of
these rules.

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mehmehshoe
The article stated that taxi activists would be protesting today. I wonder if
the protesters are the people that own the medallions? I doubt the drivers
making $8 an hour have time to protest. The medallion scheme needs reform or
replacement.

Further reading: [http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/47636506327/the-tyranny-
of...](http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/47636506327/the-tyranny-of-the-taxi-
medallions)

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JosephBrown
Why shouldn't the regulations that apply to one group of people who charge
money to drive others around on public roads not apply to every group of
people who charge to drive people around for money?

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ryanmcbride
Extrapolate this, am I not allowed to accept gas money from a friend if I
drive them around?

Of course I wouldn't be fined for that, but where is the line drawn? Do I have
to know a person very well before I can accept their money for a ride? A
friend of a friend? Will I be asked to answer a series of questions about the
person if I am pulled over?

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TillE
Running a business vs not is already pretty well established in tax law.

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chwitta9000
For those of you that care or for those of you that live in LA, there is a
petition going around. Not sure how effective these are, but I signed.

Here--> [https://www.change.org/petitions/city-of-los-angeles-
repeal-...](https://www.change.org/petitions/city-of-los-angeles-repeal-the-
cease-and-desist-order-on-uber-lyft-and-sidecar)

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Shivetya
For many industries to be regulated is to be protected. This issue is very
little different from others we have read about here, a prime example would be
either AirBnB or even Tesla.

The root of all of these is government. Your going to have to push for less
regulation to get into many markets. To get there means one or more
strategies. Changing who is government, for that you will need to convince
people there is a benefit in doing that. Second to that would be reducing the
size of government, put limits on what it can do. Third, you could try and get
the people making the laws on your side, but your up against numbers.

So whether its taxi rides, rooms for rent, cars to sell, hair dressers, or
even where you kid can go to school, its all about regulation and protection
of those regulated.

Don't get mad at those who work in regulated fields, find a way to reduce that
regulation to give them choices, you choices, and customers of all a choice.

