
Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee - benologist
https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cfglde/im_a_former_amazon_fulfillment_center_employee_ama/
======
cheeky78
Amazon Warehouse jobs have been well above minimum wage for quite some time.
They are difficult, but warehouse jobs are not easy. I feel like there is a
generational gap where people are expecting a comfortable office job.

It's hardly slavery. It's a choice. You an always go somewhere else to work.
Amazon doesn't have a monopoly on low-skilled labor jobs.

I've known plenty of people that have worked in an Amazon Warehouse (in
different states/locations) and they don't have to piss in bottles.

~~~
claudiawerner
>It's hardly slavery. It's a choice.

This mode of thinking makes a dangerous assumption - that any issue can be
resolved simply by an individual action. It assumes that because one person is
making the complaint, then the issue which the complaint attempts to access
must therefore be individual. It's an _anti-political_ stance; politics isn't
only about individuals, it's about creating a better society at large.

Let's say that it really is such an easy choice as you're describing. It's
implausible that it's the case for every worker who feels mistreated there.
Therefore your solution means to them we say "tough shit". This is one
consequence of the divorce of economy and politics. In no political situation
is it viable in rhetoric or otherwise to say "tough shit" to a group of
people. But it's fine to say that in economic circumstances. The examples go
on - most of us are in favour of democracy in the political sphere, because we
believe we should have a say over our lives, but in the anarchic economic
sphere in which pressures arise which are extremely compelling (so compelling
that there are even markets for selling one's own organs) we balk at the idea
of democracy.

This is why I'm in favour of economic democracy - to stop statements like
"It's a choice. You can go somewhere else." from being the end of these
discussions, and to take away their logical basis which falsely assumes
democracy should be relegated to politics.

~~~
nine_k
There are norms that already prevent (non-military) hired workers from e.g.
working more than 168 h/no, or prescribe at least 2 weeks of paid leave a
year.

I think these norms can be used / extended as needed.

~~~
claudiawerner
Within the capitalist system, of course - that's how it works. The capitalist
fights to increase the working day (either in time- or piece-wages) while
workers fight to decrease the working day. It's an endless tug of war between
capital and labour. Ultimately, though, I don't think it solves much. The
whole logical system and ideological analysis goes beyond simple adjustments
to various quantities.

------
kerng
One of the biggest issues seems the problem with bathroom breaks and time lost
doing so.

Why does Amazon not put more bathrooms in the warehouses, so it doesnt take 10
minutes just to walk there and back? That's like a distance of more then half
a mile...

Not drinking any water during ones shift doesn't seem a healthy solution.

~~~
bin0
Because it's often about the "piece of paper" cost. What I mean by this is
explicit costs and savings are preferred by management: they can point to
their bosses, wave a sheet of paper, and say, "See, I saved twenty-six dollars
here!" In reality, it may have cost fifty dollars, but that doesn't matter.
It's the same reason why we have open offices, "hot desks", and improper
tools: the incentive structure is wrong.

~~~
mcny
At this one company, the developers have pretty decent HP desktop machines on
Windows with Intel eighth generation processors, 8 GB RAM, ... and a $19 500GB
hard disk drive. Why? I am sure someone somewhere got a pat in the back for
saving the company money while every single npm operation takes at least an
order of magnitude of time more.

------
Doubl
_Greenspan, in his testimony, then suggests technological change and
international competition as possible reasons for worker insecurity, before
noting that "suppressed wage cost growth as a consequence of job insecurity
can be carried only so far. At some point, the tradeoff of subdued wage growth
for job security has to come to an end. In other words, the relatively modest
wage gains we have experienced are a temporary rather than a lasting
phenomenon because there is a limit to the value of additional job security
people are willing to acquire in exchange for lesser increases in living
standards._

[https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2014/jul...](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2014/jul/21/facebook-posts/social-media-meme-says-alan-
greenspan-said-insecur/)

------
jauke
Other Amazon employees have commented on the thread saying that their working
conditions don't match the picture the OP described - so either practices
differ between warehouses, or there's something else going on.

~~~
krapp
Practices differ between warehouses and at different times, depending on
volume.

------
mighty_bander
Anyone who says unions are no longer necessary should go and work in an Amazon
warehouse for a year. Until the workforce organizes, this is going to keep
happening.

~~~
Nokinside
It seems that the US union law favors so called enterprise bargaining or
worksite-level bargaining. Companies and workplaces either unionize or not.
That kind of system pits unions against companies. If the workplace unionizes,
non-unionized companies get an advantage. Whoever fucks their workers hardest
gets competitive advantage.

My experience of unions comes as an entrepreneur in countries with sectoral
bargaining. Companies representing the whole sector negotiate against unions
representing most or all workers in that sector. There may be company level
deals also, but they are just a side show dealing with local issues. When the
deal is made, everyone is at the same level of pain and gain. If company in
retail business must allow their workers to pee, so does their competitor. You
don't get competitive advantage if you fuck with your workers.

It's really just matter of arranging incentives.

~~~
devoply
The whole let's run workers like machines idea because they are poor and they
have no bargaining power is very closely akin to slavery and yet is
tolerated... and not thought of as completely immoral. I mean how the fuck do
you get away with limiting the ability of people to use the restroom.

~~~
jacorach
OK first the Restroom issue...Can we Please LET THIS GO!!! There is NO RULE
saying that I have a limit or restrictions on Restroom use. I can use the
Restroom as much/often as I need. I have Never peed in a bottle or trash can
Nor have I seen anyone does that either!! I have never gotten written up or in
trouble for using the restroom. Really this rumor needs to be put to rest!!
Its tired and old.

The last time I checked Slaves do not have Freedom and I have freedom to come
and go as I please, Slaves do not get paid and I Get Paid VERY Well and get
pay raises. Slaves do not get benefits and I get FULL Benefits with all the
bells and whistles. I am NOT A Slave. There are no shackles over here.

Rachel-Amazon FC Ambassador

~~~
devoply
[https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-
warehouse...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse-
jobs-worker-conditions-bathroom-breaks)

[https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-employee-allegedly-fired-
ove...](https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-employee-allegedly-fired-over-
unscheduled-bathroom-breaks-1341665)

[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5004230/amazon-warehouse-
worki...](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5004230/amazon-warehouse-working-
conditions/)

[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amazon-fired-7-pregnant-
wareh...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amazon-fired-7-pregnant-warehouse-
workers-because-they-took-too-many-bathroom-breaks_n_5cd17e2fe4b04e275d50260c)

[https://amazonemancipatory.com/bathroom-
breaks](https://amazonemancipatory.com/bathroom-breaks)

[https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-workers-
sha...](https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-workers-share-their-
horror-stories-2018-4)

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/01/amazon-
fu...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/01/amazon-fulfillment-
center-warehouse-employees-union-new-york-minnesota)

[https://brobible.com/culture/article/amazon-employee-
suing-c...](https://brobible.com/culture/article/amazon-employee-suing-
company-millions-fired-execssive-bathroom-breaks/)

~~~
mighty_bander
Sure, sure, you have exhaustively-researched articles by professional
investigative journalists, but where's the _proof_?

------
Simon_says
What's the over-under on how much longer Amazon will employ people for
warehouse jobs? 10 years?

~~~
gpm
At least. Robots will (and are) reducing the number of employees, but humans
are incredibly flexible components to stick in your pipeline. Fully
eliminating the use of them will take a long time unless there is a large
external motivator (i.e. politics/unionization making it untenable to continue
hiring humans for the tasks).

(Personal opinion, I have no special experience in the field)

~~~
SantalBlush
>humans are incredibly flexible components to stick in your pipeline

You can also lay them off during a downturn and substantially cut costs. That
is a big deal.

------
mellosouls
Alternative report:

[https://quillette.com/2019/07/19/the-problem-with-tourist-
jo...](https://quillette.com/2019/07/19/the-problem-with-tourist-journalism/)

Discussed here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486348](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486348)

------
tofflos
Unionize.

------
bubblewrap
I suspect toilet rules are strict because people are prone to abuse the
system.

Would be nice to have a warehouse operator for an AMA some time.

------
majewsky
Every Amazon executive, including Bezos, should be required to work as a
picker one week per year.

------
e40
As AMAs go, this was pretty poor.

------
pooya13
If automation improves productivity by two times, it means that people have to
work half as much. Simple math. Why is this not happening with the glorious
free market capitalism?

I once brought up the idea of automation tax and UBI here and was downvoted to
oblivion by the HN conservatives. But that’s obviously the only way to avoid
modern day slavery or else we end up in a local equilibrium where the owners
of capital automate away every thing that gives the masses their edge and we
put the final nail in the coffin of democracy. (Not that we are too far from
that with the media, legislation, election laws and enforcement being
massively biased towards capital controlled by a small minority)

------
massysett
I see “modern day slavery” and I stop reading. There are no whips. No rape. No
families torn apart. No slave ships. Grow up people.

~~~
mayankkaizen
What would 'modern day slavery' look like? And what would be the most
appropriate phrase for the scenario described in the link?

~~~
skyfaller
One obvious example of modern day slavery in the United States is prison
labor. It's not rare, and it's still disproportionately black people because
of our racist "justice" system.

~~~
artificial
Is your argument that all demographics commit crime at the same rate? For
example the vast majority of those incarcerated are in for violent crime, and
a significant number of those involve killing.

~~~
belltaco
I think the argument is that the treatment is inhumane because of the
demographics involved.

------
PunchTornado
I was wondering why the design is so shit. Turns out that the link is from
old.reddit. Can someone change the link?

------
alexmlamb2
Why do hourly employees care how long your lunch break is? At least in the US
it's usually not counted as work time. Assuming people clock out for the lunch
break, I don't see why they'd care if it's 30m or 2hr, since people could just
make up the hours by working later. Although I suppose it depends on the type
of work being done.

~~~
jarfil
Seems like they're being evaluated on their "items per time" rate, but that
time also includes the lunch and bathroom breaks.

~~~
krapp
Many employees are evaluated by "scan to scan," which is a literal count of
the rate at which they physically scan ASINs and bin codes in sequence, so any
activity other than that (including bathroom breaks) counts as a penalty
against their rate.

Of course they also have multiple quotas for items per hour, based on item
size and expected daily volume, etc.

