
Inside the Feminist Hackerspace - secretmag
http://secret.is/inside-the-feminist-hackerspace/
======
tzs
This is a problem:

    
    
        “Our geek cred is constantly challenged or
        belittled,” Liz Henry, founder of feminist
        hackerspace DoubleUnion writes. “You might be
        there coding, and you want to stop for a while and
        draw in your notebook and think, but if you’re not
        staring at a black and green screen or, like,
        melding your brain with an Arduino every second,
        some dude is going to come up to you and act like
        you need his expert lessons in how to hack.”
    

On the other hand, there is a tendency among many newbies at hobbies to be shy
and self-conscious when they first go to places where the hobby is practiced
in public and in groups, and they end up just observing for a while and then
leaving without ever jumping in and participating, so everyone ignoring people
who aren't obviously participating would also be a problem.

Probably it would be best to have some formal procedure to identify and deal
with newbies, such as having designated people who look for them and offer
help, and asking others to let those designated people handle the new people.

~~~
LordKano
This is a big problem.

If you think someone is stuck and you offer to help, you're being
condescending or mansplaining but if you think that someone is just in their
process and working something out so you leave them alone, you're being
cliquish and not welcoming to the newcomer.

Is the subculture supposed to change to fit the needs of the newbie or should
the newbies be expected to learn to fit in to the subculture?

~~~
angersock
The fact that they're stuck _might be part of the fun_. It's usually easiest,
and frankly less intimidating/annoying, to follow a simple protocol:

    
    
      1. Ask them if they have a second to chat (if no, leave them alone for a while).
      2. Ask them what they're working on, and what they enjoy about it, and what is hard (if they don't want to talk about it, leave them alone for a while).
      3. Ask them if they'd mind a suggestion about what they're trying (if they don't want a suggestion, leave them alone for a while). This may also be in the form of a leading question.
    

It's really not hard to do that without falling into one of those two
categories. Just ask quietly and politely, and respect their space. This isn't
rocket science.

EDIT:

Also, some of my sibling commenters and even my parent comment have language
that suggests some grumpiness over gender or feminism or whatever.

If you're there to help with tech, _none of that matters_ , so don't bring it
up. Just ignore it and focus on the tech--doing anything else is, by
definition, being distracting.

Furthermore, complaining about it just makes you look silly.

~~~
Kalium
Maybe it's just me, but "Do you have a second to chat?" sounds very little
like "You look like you could use some help and I may be able to offer
relevant expertise in the interests of addressing your apparent problem". From
where I'm sitting, the former sounds like it's so unlikely to lead to the
latter that it may not be worth engaging with.

~~~
angersock
That's precisely the point. :)

Take at your statement, and pretend a frustrated/easily embarrassed/grumpy
person is hearing it:

"You look like you could use some help" \--> "You look like you don't know
what you're doing/you look frustrated"

"I may be able to offer relevant expertise" \--> "I assume that I both have
something to offer and that you are having a problem of this particular
way/shape/form"

"in the interests of addressing your apparent problem" \--> "whatever you're
working on is clearly broken, and needs fixing"

My formulation is intentionally very gentle and indirect, precisely to avoid
any of the above misinterpretations. Working with people experienced in the
field or who are known to be open to communication, obviously, we want to be
more direct; for a novice, or for somebody who is looking for any excuse to
take offense at what you're saying (perhaps because they're frustrated at
their work and want to vent at something), it is useful to take a lighter
touch.

~~~
Kalium
I should hope that's precisely _not_ the point unless you just want to
frustrate people more. The approach you describe is, in my considered opinion,
possibly indirect to the point that could be by some considered to be
influenced by Dadaism. Let's model a hypothetical person focused on a problem
they're struggling with:

"Hey, do you have a second to chat?" \--> "I want to waste your time with
spurious bullshit when you're clearly eyeball-deep in something."

Might I suggest a different formulation that presumes less about the subject?
Or perhaps giving up entirely? Personally, I've accepted that there is not and
cannot be any uniformly acceptable way to approach a stranger and offer
assistance that does not risk backlash or misinterpretation.

~~~
kaitai
But then the answer is, "Nope, working hard!"

spurious bullshit avoided, algorithm deployed successfully.

~~~
Kalium
And then you and your space are attacked publicly as being a place where
nobody respects focus, men are constantly approaching women, and so on. Or
someone blows up after being quietly and kindly asked that for the fifth time
in two hours by well-intentioned people who are unfortunately less than
omniscient and an article entitled "Woman harassed in hackerspace by
brogrammers!" hits Jezebel.

Communications failures combined with the human capacity for reinterpretation
are a bottomless pit of potential badness.

Maybe I'm just more cynical about people than you.

~~~
kaitai
This sounds a lot like black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking
(psychology).

"If I ask a woman in a hackerspace ``want to chat?'' then .... Jezebel will
print horrible articles about men."

"If I don't talk to the woman in a hackerspace then..... .. .. I am a horrible
misogynist (?) because I am not encouraging her."

From Wikipedia, "Splitting creates instability in relationships because one
person can be viewed as either personified virtue or personified vice at
different times, depending on whether they gratify the subject's needs or
frustrate them. This, along with similar oscillations in the experience and
appraisal of the self, leads to chaotic and unstable relationship patterns,
identity diffusion, and mood swings." I think sometimes folks get too invested
in how to talk to women in tech. Do your best and move on. No one is going to
fix this problem individually, and heightening every interaction into a chance
for a Jezebel article is counterproductive. Not unless you are Iggy Azalea are
you going to get Jezebel hate every time you move, so relax a little!

~~~
Kalium
An environment has been created where the slightest of perceived infractions
is maximally punished. You'll have to forgive me for not wanting to take that
risk just because someone asked nicely. It's become quite clear to me that
doing my best and moving on isn't good enough.

Have you considered the possibility that there's a real state of fear
surrounding these topics? It renders everything toxic and every interaction
becomes a minefield. It's not a healthy state of affairs, and it's not one in
which telling people to do their best and move on offer is a sufficient
response. It comes across as utterly lacking in empathy.

------
daenz
> most hackerspaces tend to be full of dudes, or more specifically, white
> dudes.

> Women and people of color join hackerspaces all the time ... “Our geek cred
> is constantly challenged or belittled ... some dude is going to come up to
> you and act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack.”

If "white dudes" are becoming more aware that women and minorities are getting
into tech and wanting to get into tech, many of them will want to help in any
way they can, including asking if you need help. Saying that this is
belittling is saying that there is malicious intent, which is alienating to
anyone who wants to help spread their knowledge to new people.

~~~
alukima
I am a female programmer in my mid thirties. I've had careers before tech, I
learn new things all the time.

I have the ability to tell the difference when someone is treating me a
certain way because I am a newbie or because I am a woman.

It's incredibly insulting that every time this is brought up it's written off
as women not understanding basic human interaction.

~~~
Jun8
"I have the ability to tell the difference ..."

But that's the _whole_ point: it's hard to tell! Of course the classification
is easy at the end points (super helpful guy vs total arrogant jerk) but
towards the mean the probability of false alarm is much larger. Geeks are a
diverse bunch, it may just be that the guy is from another country where
interactions are different or it may be just that he's a bit awkward initially
because he does not interact with women daily (it happens).

I think the correct approach is to give them the benefit of doubt for a while
before labeling them as dudes or whatever. Isn't that the golden rule?

~~~
alukima
I always give people the benefit of the doubt? Why would you think that women
aren't?

I am an awkward person with social anxiety. The idea that women like myself
aren't already doing that is part of the absurdity.

------
Animats
They don't say much about what tools these places have. I heard about
DoubleUnion in SF, and asked my feminist punk lesbian artist friend about it.
"What tools do they have" was her first question. They have a laser cutter, a
low-end 3D printer, some Arduino stuff, and sewing equipment. She wasn't
impressed. She's taught at TechShop. She needs at least a small milling
machine.

TechShop itself has many women members and employees. But that's in decline.
TechShop used to let their employees take any class they wanted for free, and
women were getting jobs there and learning all the machines. Their main
welding instructor was a woman, and a cynical punker with colored hair
overhauled the milling machines. Now TechShop charges their employees for
classes and they have to take them on their own time. The result is
receptionists at tool checkout who don't even know what the tools look like.

~~~
britta
Double Union has never had a laser cutter, but it has two small milling
machines (a Shapeoko and a Handibot). It has a bunch of other tools as well,
such as screenprinting equipment (exposure unit, screens, ink, squeegees,
drying racks, paper cutters, etc.), a Silhouette vinyl cutter, button maker,
woodburning tool, Dremels, light box for drawing/tracing, hot plate for dyeing
fabric, etc.

------
rogerbraun
'As with many extensions of startup culture...' \- is this true? Are american
hacker spaces grown out of startup culture?

~~~
TodPunk
Not in the slightest. Hacker spaces are an extension of just about every
enthusiasts club ever, and if anything startup culture is a product of THOSE.
Nobody sat down and said "you know, these startups are pretty cool, I should
start a casual place to work on such a thing." Most hackerspace projects
aren't even for profit, they're just things to learn on or group projects to
socialize and expand the craft.

Remember that Wozniak tinkered with hardware for fun and his day job at HP.
Such things were possible then, but before that there was always clubs for
engineers and creatives of all kinds. We often ignore history when we create
these kinds of articles, because writing things in the context of history is
hard and doesn't get as many clicks if you don't put more effort into it. I
find this phenomenon deeply interesting, as we'd do much better as a species
if we learned historical contexts for a lot of things we think are new and
powerful ideas.

tl;dr: No, startup culture is a niche extension of hackerspaces. Not the other
way around.

~~~
angersock
I disagree further--I don't think that startup culture ( _especially_ the
pseudo Ponzi stuff we see nowadays) has _anything_ to do with hackerspaces.

"Startup culture" is purely an invention of "How do I build a business with no
resources"? Hackerspaces are the continuation of HAM radio clubs and
electronics clubs and engineers bullshitting at bars and people letting folks
goof around with their broken television sets and kids goofing around on BBS.

None of that has anything to do with startups--to say otherwise is pretty much
just astroturfing.

~~~
seiji
Many 1-2 person startups use hackerspaces (which have no formal definition) as
co-working spaces. So there is a symbiotic relationship there, especially when
some hackerspaces cost $100 to $300 per month.

Formal hackerspaces (e.g. have a building, have staff, have policies) are
[potentially non-profit] startups themselves.

------
thiht
>some dude is going to come up to you and act like you need his expert lessons
in how to hack.

Seriously? "The bad white cis-hetero male offers us his help", patriarchy
right?

This is ridiculous, really stop it...

------
lizzard
Here a bit late but I wanted to mention at least one amazing and beautiful
project that (at least partly!) arose from Double Union members' work.
BubbleSort - zines about computer science. Have a look! They are more like
gorgeous tiny books than what you may think of as a zine.

BubbleSort: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sailorhg/bubblesort-
com...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sailorhg/bubblesort-computer-
science-zines)

Or check out Natalie Freed's work in electronics, bookbinding, and art:
[http://www.nataliefreed.com/projects/](http://www.nataliefreed.com/projects/)

Or Jayne Vidheecharoen's awesome projects and her Appaloosa kit for kids
learning mobile app programming, [http://seejayne.com/](http://seejayne.com/)

That is just off the top of my head! So much skill, idealism, and energy,
combined with hard work! We have many members who are also part of TechShop,
Noisebridge, work in tech, in startups, teach coding to wide audiences, and so
on. DU and the other hackerspaces centered on women are worthy of celebrating!
Our motivation is also very much that we want to support each other so that we
feel able to stay in our various fields, and continue exploring our hacking
and making arts.

So many talented women have gathered at the space and want to support each
others' work. That's what should be highlighted.

I'll stop now :) Really, it's nice, though.

------
orionblastar
In the late 1980s and early 1990s I worked in a community college computer lab
with students and teachers.

I sat behind a desk and waited for the students to come to me to ask questions
or ask for help. I wasn't allowed to go up to the students and ask them if
they needed help.

I handed out floppy disks, and one of them logged into the Novell Network on a
PC or PS/2 DOS machine. We had software on the Novell server and on floppy
disks.

I debugged programs too, we had a debugger for that but when she couldn't
figure something out or it was in a language she didn't know they sent the
students to me to figure it out. Lady who was a debugger eventually took over
the department. She taught me logical methods when I was a student there. I
was let go in 1992 because I graduated (I went half-time and worked half-time
there, had to be a student to keep the job).

We had women and minorities as well in the computer lab, I helped everyone
equally. We didn't seem to have the issues that exists today in hacker spaces
with feminists. I don't know what has changed since 1992.

What I do know is that not knowing feminism or gender studies terms can make
one look like a jerk or people can take things the wrong way. For example
transgender people, if you don't know to call a transgender woman as a she or
her and respect that she has an identity as a woman you could get into a lot
of trouble. The slightest thing you say can be taken out of context and found
as offensive. For example we had a professor who told a woman that her method
for solving a problem was 'bush league' and that his method was a much better
one. He was talking about baseball but the woman complained he was talking
about female parts and so he got into trouble for sexual harassment.

------
Jun8
"This kind of agenda evokes the start of a feminist dream sequence, or the
basis of a Portlandia episode."

Summed it up pretty well.

