
Tracking Phones, Google Is a Dragnet for the Police - rasmi
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/13/us/google-location-tracking-police.html
======
sbov
I turned off almost all tracking in Android a while ago, but never scanned the
data it collected. I recently looked at what data was associated with my
Google account, and there I saw: every voice command I ever issued my phone,
and when I used what app. I could see at 9:30am I opened my camera app. I can
see I viewed a notification at 9:45am. And so on. I deleted it all, but my
guess is it probably still lives somewhere in Google.

I knew they tracked search. I knew they would use my voice usage to make it
better. I didn't realize how pathological they were in tracking literally
everything I did with my phone and tying it to my account, down to what apps I
opened and when. It's creepy as hell.

It really made me want to just exit this whole smartphone shitfest, because I
have to assume they're still tracking all this data, just not making it
visible. Maybe Apple is better, maybe not. The problem is I can't know for
sure, and if they lie - what could I do about it anyways?

~~~
andrei_says_
In addition to this, if the data exists, at some point in the future it will
be compromised. The only way to avoid this is to not collect it.

And to anyone who says “I have nothing to hide” — imagine your worst enemy
having all this information about you easily searchable with the intention to
weaponize it for their purpose.

~~~
godelski
> And to anyone who says “I have nothing to hide”

To anyone saying that, they need to stop quoting Nazi propaganda. Term is
coined by (but not originating from) Goebbels.

Note: The origin is from a fictional dystopia.

~~~
andrei_says_
Thank you. A great way to address the sentiment.

~~~
godelski
I mean I get why people say it. But we have to also be honest with ourselves.
If it is something (strongly) pushed by societies that we utterly despise (be
the Nazis, the dystopian writing of Sinclair (origin), or Voldemort's puppet
state), it probably doesn't align with the beliefs of a free society.

The phrase is too frequently used by societies that we consider to not be
free, being pervasive enough that a single use in literature would tell you
that the characters live in an oppressive regime. Yet somehow we can make that
connection but don't make it when actual politicians and citizens repeat it.

Personally I feel sickened that the phrase is so pervasive in our society
(goes beyond the US). Just as I'd be if people were constantly saying "Work
will set you free."

------
kyrra
Even without Google or Apple, they police have the cell service providers. In
the case of the Austin bomber from a year ago[0], police got cell tower
records from the multiple bombings and figured out who was at all the
locations. Cell phones are little trackers unless you turn them off or don't
carry one.

[0]
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna85...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna858791)

~~~
dvtrn
Reading that article reminds me of a rather prophetically-accurate movie
starring Will Smith and Gene Hackman "Emeny of the State"[0]. Granted, for a
film that came out in 1998 it probably wasn't too hard to guess where things
were headed w/rt surveillance compared to how seemingly prescient writings
from the likes of Orwell and Bradbury were for their respective times.

What stands out to me about the movie (because I went and fished out my DVD
and decided to watch it this fine afternoon) was just _how detailed_ David
Marconi was in his depiction of brotherly tracking and surveillance.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_of_the_State_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_of_the_State_\(film\))

Edit: attribution for the plot goes to writer David Marconi, I've fixed this
for any fellow movie geeks who also care about such things ;)

~~~
vermontdevil
Hackman was also in another movie about spying and paranoia - The
Conversation. Great movie. I know it’s not about nation states spying but
wanted to add that here

~~~
dvtrn
Oh? Thanks for the recommendation, I'm a big fan of Hackman's acting and spy
movies especially-lately, so I'll definitely be looking this up. Cheers

~~~
akira2501
I hate to be this off topic, but also 'Heist' is a great movie which features
a lot of social engineering and exploitation tactics to drive the plot.

~~~
bookofjoe
There are 2 films with this title, from 2001 and 2015.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heist_(2001_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heist_\(2001_film\))
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heist_(2015_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heist_\(2015_film\))
Both have stellar casts.

~~~
hopler
2001 had a much higher acclaimed script and was more appreciated by viewers

------
DontGiveTwoFlux
The article describes a case where an innocent man had to spend a week in
jail. Eventually, he was released and the presumed actual perpetrator was
caught. The lead seemed to come from the location data, so it wasn’t useless
at least.

But the so called justice system says that it got it right here. The innocent
man lost his job when he couldn’t work for a week. Depending on his situation
he could miss rent and be evicted too.

Why do we have a system that says justice was served? It’s cruel and unfair.

This dragnet police tactic will scoop up more bystanders and probably convict
more than a few innocents as well. I like the timeline feature- it has been
genuinely helpful for remembering when I did things months ago. The tie in
with photos is also a fun way to remember trips. It’s sad that the cost of
these features is to roll the dice on getting arrested because a crime was
committed nearby.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Why do we have a system that says justice was served?_

Suggest specific improvements and call them into your representatives. The
closer you can make your proposals to a bill, the more likely it is that the
problem becomes an issue.

In this case, I’d argue we need publicly-subsidised attorneys for wrongful
arrest. It should also be unlawful to dismiss an employee because they were
arrested and never indicted. Giving people the right to notify employers, upon
arrest, barring a specific request by the police (approved by a court), would
also be prudent.

~~~
isoskeles
> It should also be unlawful to dismiss an employee because they were arrested
> and never indicted.

I disagree. The cost of bad policing shouldn't be paid for by businesses. The
police should bear the consequences, not have yet another victim (some
business) to burden with more punishment.

~~~
deogeo
> bad policing

But arresting someone reasonably suspected of some crime isn't bad policing,
even if they are later found to be innocent. That is why arrest and trial are
separate.

~~~
isoskeles
Let's agree to disagree. I think that detaining an innocent person against
their will is bad policing.

~~~
deogeo
But how could it be avoided? The police don't operate on 'guilty' and
'innocent', but on 'suspect' \- even if they do everything right, they'll
occasionally arrest someone that will later turn out to be innocent. If
they're responding to an emergency, they simply don't have time to determine
guilt with much accuracy, and are just focusing on protecting possible
victims. And if they're arresting someone being prosecuted for some crime,
well it's unavoidable that occasionally someone won't be found guilty for what
they stood trial for - that's the whole point of a trial.

However, I agree that if that should happen, the detained should be
compensated for the harm they suffered, even if the police (and prosecutors!)
acted reasonably.

I should clarify that I don't mean to imply the US police and public
prosecutors meet these reasonablenes criteria - from what I hear, the deck is
stacked heavily against anyone being prosecuted for a felony, guilty or not.

~~~
arbitrarywords
What about if the police had a dedicated fund for arrests. For the employer -
they aren't allowed to sack the employee, but administrative costs of finding
temp staff can be claimed from the fund. For the arrested, all cost of living
expenses are covered until trial, but should they be found guilty, this
becomes a CPI indexed, interest free debt. Any pre-conviction incarceration
costs where accused is found innocent are also paid by the fund. This seems to
grab most of the data in one account. But does also seem to add a big
incentive to find people guilty...

------
caymanjim
This isn't the best case to use as an example of police overreach and
information dragnets. Yes, they arrested the wrong guy and held him for a
week, but the right guy was using the wrong guy's car. I realize they
initially identified him--at least in part--via the Google-provided
information, but the reason they held him for a week is because it was _his
car_ that was used to commit the crime. At that point, it was absolutely
reasonable _and correct_ to assume that he was the perpetrator. If that hadn't
been the case, they probably would have questioned him and never even arrested
him.

I'm not defending Google's information collection or the use of dragnets in
general, but this is absolutely the wrong case to use as an example of how
things can go wrong. Things did not go wrong here. This was good police work,
and ultimately the arrest was not off-base, and led directly to the real
perpetrator.

Find a better example if you want to drum up fear about information abuse.

~~~
slenk
It says in the story in the surveillance they can't make out the plates, so
they don't know for sure it was his car.

------
Jerry2
> _Though Google’s data cache is enormous, it doesn’t sweep up every phone,
> said Mr. Edens, the California intelligence analyst. And even if a location
> is recorded every few minutes, that may not coincide with a shooting or an
> assault._

> _But despite the drawbacks, detectives noted how precise the data was and
> how it was collected even when people weren’t making calls or using apps —
> both improvements over tracking that relies on cell towers._

So if you use Android, there's absolutely no way to turn this type of tracking
off? What exactly are they using? Anyone know? This doesn't seem like the IEMI
cell tower tracking that carriers do.

And according to this sentence:

> _Apple said it did not have the ability to perform those searches._

It appears that if you use iPhone and don't use Google's apps (Google Maps is
the main culprit here?), Apple doesn't have a way of identifying your data and
your data won't appear in Google's Sensorvault.. which appears to be massive:

> _Sensorvault, according to Google employees, includes detailed location
> records involving at least hundreds of millions of devices worldwide and
> dating back nearly a decade._

~~~
kevingrahl
You can turn off the collection of location data for Google. [1] You can also
delete old location data. Google is saying that they won’t collect location
data unless you opt-in but I’d assume most people just click on “Okay” once
when asked to. Of course nobody really knows if Google honors your settings.

[1] -
[https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3118687?hl=en](https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3118687?hl=en)

~~~
callmeal
>You can turn off the collection of location data for Google.

If you have an android phone, please try turning off the location service and
see what happens. The sheer number of dark patterns google uses to get you to
turn it back on is illuminating.

I remember in the early versions of android, you could turn on/off the gps
from the lock screen. Then one day it went away and was only available once
the phone was unlocked. Now it's hidden inside the settings app. The cynic in
me guesses that a future update will turn that option off as well.

~~~
clragon
I don't think that's really the case.

I can unlock my phone (probably already unlocked anyways), swipe down the
status bar and tap an icon to disable location services.

The first time I get a pop up that apps won't be able to use my location and
that's it. It won't ask again, and it's a matter of 2 seconds.

~~~
callmeal
That's the icon I was talking about. It was present on my Nexus 5 with Android
6 (marshmallow), but disappeared when I upgraded to android 7 (nougat) and
there's no way I can see to bring it back. It's possible that other carriers
have it enabled, but google's flagship phones have it disabled.

------
AlphaWeaver
One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on yet was the article's illustration
of the technology...

I think it did a good job of hypothetically showing how phone data could be
collected in a geofence and explaining the process of narrowing it down and
picking a potential subject. Regardless of the merit of this approach, I think
NYT did a great job here of illustrating the process in a way that non-
technical people could understand.

------
fharper1961
Location data can also be used to help prove your innocence.

It sucks that this innocent person ended up suffering. Hopefully law
enforcement will become better at figuring out false positives before
arresting someone.

I do like that the gov. doesn't have direct access. Seems to me like the more
independent parties required to access the data, the lower the chances of
abuse.

~~~
ehsankia
I'm a little confused here. It turned out that it was his mother's ex-
boyfriend, who had taken his car without permission. That explains the car,
but how does it explain the location? Did he just happen to also leave close
to there and was moving in a similar pattern? Was the phone inside the car?

Really, the issue here was the car, without which they wouldn't have had
enough evidence to get the person's information in the first place. Are you
not partly responsible to whom you give your car to?

~~~
jfk13
If someone steals my car and uses it when committing a crime, I can accept
that may well lead to questioning me. But I don't think it justifies keeping
me in jail for a week.

~~~
ehsankia
That's fair, though I'm still unsure how his phone happened to also correlate
with the crime.

------
Crontab
Orwell never guessed that the government could outsource our dystopian
nightmare to corporations.

~~~
reddog
He also never guessed that we would eagerly stand in line to spend $1000 to
buy our own tracking devices.

~~~
lucb1e
(Explaining my downvote: you know full well that the devices are not merely
that. It's a useless comment.)

------
danso
Great to see a big follow up on the story which was first reported by a local
news outlet in North Carolina: [https://www.wral.com/Raleigh-police-search-
google-location-h...](https://www.wral.com/Raleigh-police-search-google-
location-history/17377435/?smid=nytcore-ios-share)

I remember it being reported the same time as the Cambridge Analytica scandal
broke out (literally the same week IIRC) and getting almost no notice, despite
being, in my mind, a story with far greater implications about our privacy.

------
tgsovlerkhgsel
The interesting thing is that from the article, it seems to me like the only
data these searches are using is location history, so if that one is off, you
should be unaffected.

~~~
Macross8299
I bet you anything that the "turn location history off" switch is just a
placebo switch.

All it does is send the data with additional flag saying that the data
shouldn't be displayed to the end user.

------
caprese
> Months after his release, Mr. Molina was having trouble getting back on his
> feet. After being arrested at work, a Macy’s warehouse, he lost his job. His
> car was impounded for investigation and then repossessed.

/Facepalm

But before I go further on the social commentary, can we confirm that the
arrest at work was the reason he lost his job, the week of being in jail being
the reason he lost his job, performance due to the arrest being the reason?

------
teamspirit
I find it interesting in the bombing warrant they describe Google as "an email
provider". Then follow it with, "The information to be searched...consists of
Google location data...". It's not like they looked at the suspects emails.
The fact that the police must have thought, "what is Google? Well, I have a
gmail account, they're an email provider!".

------
warp_factor
Something I never managed to fully confirm or deny:

I manually disabled all the data collection on my Google account (search and
location history). Is Google still tracking my location? Would I still appear
in that database? I'm pretty much Google-free at this point except for some
spam emails and the need for a google account for Android Play.

------
sys_64738
This is for Google Android phone only? Or Apple too? What if the real perp has
an iPhone but Apple doesn't provide that info. Meanwhile an innocent who has
an Android phone happens to fit the profile 'enough' for the cops to collar
him. Sounds pretty much like a lawsuit in waiting...

~~~
Despegar
From the article:

>Investigators who spoke with The New York Times said they had not sent
geofence warrants to companies other than Google, and Apple said it did not
have the ability to perform those searches.

------
mirimir
So if someone steals your phone, they can "place" you at a crime scene. Or
even if they get physical access long enough to clone the SIM. People already
do that to clone phones, to get free calls.

------
eplanit
Wow, we're edging closer: this + AI Crime Prediction[1] + Profiling[2], and
we're basically at Minority Report.

[1]
[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-29047-3_...](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-29047-3_28)

[2]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09507...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0950705108000610)

~~~
PorterDuff
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.04135v2.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.04135v2.pdf)

------
wyldfire
I'm about to go commit a crime. How do I turn off this feature?

~~~
greenyoda
If you're going to commit a crime, leave your phone at home so that (1) you
can't be linked to the crime scene and (2) there's evidence you may have been
somewhere else (at home) at the time.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Also make sure your home activities continue as normal such as electricity,
water, gas, and internet usage.

And don’t use any vehicle with a license plate that can be tracked to you, or
the area around your house.

All that effort is better focused on committing legal white collar crimes, via
plausible deniability and in person conversations that aren’t recorded.

~~~
chachachoney
> All that effort is better focused on committing legal white collar crimes,
> via plausible deniability and in person conversations that aren’t recorded.

We've got about 5 minutes before "in person conversations that aren't
recorded" are a historical artifact.

------
skookumchuck
Why would google keep this data indefinitely? It should be routinely deleted
after a month or so.

~~~
hereiskkb
Big difference between what should be and what is in the real world.

------
kevingadd
Ensnaring the innocent is a feature. Cops are happy to have opportunities to
prosecute people for other stuff later on, or have someone take a guilty plea
even if they didn't do it. It looks good for them. Not to mention fines for
missing court dates (to keep your job, or because you don't have
transportation).

