
Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports - luu
http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/cultivated-disinterest-in-professional-sports
======
solson
When you show overt contempt for sports you are showing contempt for most
everybody and that is problem with your social skills.

It's called being a snob. The disdain for working class culture among
academics was part of the reason I choose not to pursue a formal higher
education. I suspect this overt snootiness keeps many gifted working class
kids from participating in higher education.

I grew up working class and was a boxer. I love Ice Hockey, Football, UFC,
NASCAR, Motocross, and heavy metal, but I am also an academic and an
intellectual. Many highly educated people have told me so, I just don't have
the paper to prove it.

My oldest son is highly gifted earning math test scores putting him in the top
tenth of one percent and placing 1st in regional Math Masters competitions. He
also plays ice hockey so he interacts socially with the 'jocks' and the
'brains' preferring the company of the 'brains.'

Most of his 'smart' friends show contempt for sports which is a social problem
since he is an athlete.

When a kids says, "Hockey. Meh. It is a bunch grown men with sticks chasing a
black piece of rubber around a sheet of ice" he is saying in effect "What you
love is obtuse and low brow and I don't care how that makes you feel." And
that is just rude.

~~~
Glyptodon
I love playing sports and always have. But I have major issues with
categorizing everyone who has issues with them as elitist.

Some of us dislike them because they're destructive to society. I'm sure I'm
not the only one who went to a high school where athletics were more important
than academics, and not going to the football game was worth a couple
nitpicked points off on your chemistry quiz or some teacher who became a
teacher solely to coach had you spend their class taking notes from a text
book every day while they jawed around with other coaches in the back room.

I feel like sports culture deprives lots of regular public high school
students of an education, and I don't think it's elitist at all to dislike
professional sports for their contribution to this mess.

I love sports, but every time I watch or support them I feel like I'm
destroying civil society and undermining democracy and helping to destroy the
last vestiges of effective public education.

And I'm not elite or upper class.

~~~
Implicated
> I feel like sports culture deprives lots of regular public high school
> students of an education, and I don't think it's elitist at all to dislike
> professional sports for their contribution to this mess.

While I respect your position I feel that you really don't understand the
perspective of sports from the athletes side.

You're completely glossing over the positives that sports bring to the lives
of people involved in them, especially those who take it serious. I've been
writing code since I was 13-14 years old, but I've been testing myself
physically and mentally since I was 8, thanks to a life long 'career' of
playing baseball. Nothing in my life has taught me more about who I am and
what I'm capable of, both mentally and physically, than my time spent in team
sports. And that's saying nothing of the social growth and life long
friendships and connections made.

I'm just a middle class white kid who had far better options in life than to
pursue professional sports...but for those less fortunate, the education they
get from their sports teams/coaches/careers my very well be the best 'real
life' education they'll ever get.

Calling sports destructive to society seems so completely asinine to me that
it's comedic. Then again, my perspective is quite different than yours.

~~~
XorNot
That's not his point though. His point is that for every bit of handwringing
of how ghastly some people's comments on sports are, there's the reality that
the football coach is the highest (in the millions of dollars range) paid
position at almost every university in the US, how the sporting department
despite those figures manages to be a net budgetry drain on almost every
school which has one, and the reality that college-level sports is hugely
abusive and exploitative to the players which actually play it.

~~~
slg
>how the sporting department despite those figures manages to be a net
budgetry drain on almost every school which has one

And so are music departments.

Which I think is part of the point here. I firmly believe that playing right
tackle can teach you just as much as playing the oboe, yet intellectuals tend
to look down on former and praise the latter. Organized sports are not only a
hobby and social gathering, but they can also serve as part of a greater
learning and education experience. There is a reason why a few of the Ivy
League schools rank near the top of all universities when it comes to the
number of varsity athletes.

>that college-level sports is hugely abusive and exploitative to the players
which actually play it.

You need to be specific here. Big revenue college sports (basically only Div I
basketball and Div I-A football) are definitely exploitative, but most college
athletes participate in sports that generate little revenue and it would be
hard to argue they are being exploited.

~~~
HarryHirsch
Music departments are budget drains since when? The arts and humanities are
actually rather cheap, they need nothing more than buildings, staff and a
library. Science and engineering are the real whoppers, and as a rule cross-
subsidized by A&H. Tuition per credit hour is the same, after all. The dean of
the School of Arts & Sciences at a certain state school is on record saying
that for the price of a chemistry professor she can pay a whole department of
English.

That isn't the point. The point is that the mission of universities is
academic pursuits, not athletics. If anyone wants to practice sports, power to
him, but let him join the sports club, or let him start an inofficial
intramurine league.

The wider point is that in America you can't earn much social capital by being
knowledgeable about any academic subject, you have to be wealthy instead.
That's a problem, and probably also explains many things about American
society. Universities finally getting rid of organized sports might perhaps be
able to change that.

~~~
mmcclimon
Music departments tend to be expensive in terms of faculty, sine most of their
time is spent in private lessons. If an oboe studio has 10 students, that's
essentially 10 hours a week in lessons alone. In that same 10 hours, an
English professor might teach 60 students (if you figure 15 students/class
with 2 hours MWF and a different 30 students Tue./Thu.). Those are numbers for
a small school; at larger universities an English professor might lecture to
300 students a week in 10 hours, but that oboe professor is still seeing just
10 students.

~~~
mgkimsal
Huh? Are you talking about college? I thought the OP was talking about high
school. We never had any private lessons. "Band" class was... 35+ kids in one
room at a time, all playing at the same time. Band was almost always the
largest single class I had, relative only to gym class. Sometimes gym was
larger (40-50 at a time), but I think I had a year with more people in band
class than in my pahys-ed class.

------
kulak
To my ears, this "cultivated disinterest" label comes off as something of a
cheap stereotype. Simply put, not everyone who lacks interest in professional
sports nurtures a "cultivated distinterest" in the subject, nor are we driven
by some need to display this disinterest as some kind of marker of class rank
or intellectual superiority. We simply _lack interest_ in the subject, period.

And when pressed on the subject, I never use language that conveys any sense
that I think others are stupid or shallow for being interest in professional
sports. If anything I just say, kind of sheepishly, "You know, I actually
don't follow professional sports", or something to that effect. And
surprisingly, this kind of honesty has, itself, sparked interesting
conversations with people, on several occasions.

~~~
toby
I think what he's referring to is people who are proud of their ignorance,
which it doesn't sound like you are doing. You've certainly encountered people
who believe saying things like "Oh, I don't even know who Kim Kardashian is"
or "I haven't read a book since college" is bragging.

~~~
jpindar
Or the disingenuous "oh, is there a football game this week" \- which they are
only saying as a response to hearing people talk about the game all week.

------
bglazer
I'm not sure how I feel about this article. On the one hand, it had a weird
highbrow tone. It reads a bit like an ivory tower academic discovering what
"the poors" are up to. Some choice quotes:

"Albert suggested that sports reflect the go-to topic for small talk and
building rapport across class and context"

"Sports are popular because people, in general, find them fun to watch".

No shit! Lots of people like sports. Did you really need to go to a talk at
MIT to figure that out?

On the other hand, I applaud the author for challenging the social conventions
of the people around him. Disdain for sports is pointless social signalling
that is ultimately divisive. Another quote, that I particularly like:

"This ignorance among highly educated people limits our ability to
communicate, bond, and build relationships across different segments of
society. It limits our ability to engage in conversations and build a common
culture that crosses our highly stratified and segmented societies"

Edit: I would also like to add one perspective that is perhaps more appealing
to the intellectual crowd: Sports are a magnificent showcase of kinesiology at
the highest level. The same people who scoff at football probably also marvel
at the latest ATLAS robot from Boston Dynamics, which is a poor analogue of
the human machines on display in any high level sporting event. I could give a
dozen examples. Anything from hitting a baseball thrown at 90 mph to ice-
skating to a running back evading tackles. I can't believe we take this for
granted.

Imagine bipedal robots powered by ham sandwiches that have visual/control
systems capable of tracking objects thrown through the air and leaping to
catch them, all while evading attackers and coordinating with team mates.

~~~
wcummings
An impressive robot is just so much more novel and interesting than a feat of
human strength. Not to say sports aren't impressive, or that professional
athletes aren't incredibly dedicated and talented, but someone hitting a
baseball isn't very _interesting_.

~~~
bglazer
A biological computer estimates the position of an object that's moving much
faster than the refresh rate of its visual system using years of training
data. Simultaneously it triggers a cascade of actuators, twisting its body so
that its hands reach maximum velocity at the same time the object reaches the
bat it's holding. It loses sight of the ball, which is following a curved
trajectory, while doing this.

It then takes off running at 20mph.

That's fantastically mysterious and incredible to me.

I'm not trying to minimize robotics or Boston Dynamics. It's an amazing field.
I just think people under appreciate the movement of the human body.

~~~
Dylan16807
But they're all the same with no progression over time.

Not fascinating to me in the long term.

------
Tenhundfeld
Meh, this is not a problem that needs addressing.

When people say they "don't like sports," what they often mean is that they
don't follow any teams.

I played baseball growing up, still play tennis and row. I "understand" the
rules of most sports – except cricket but c'mon. I can have a good time
drinking a pint with friends and listening to them discuss sports. In fact, my
ignorance often leads to great conversations, as they explain some backstory
about how the wide receivers played on rival college teams or the history of
nation's soccer team or whatever. It's fun. Sports are inherently dramatic,
and it's easy to be drawn into an evenly matched contest. Given the right
context and group of peers who are passionate about the outcome, pretty much
everybody will enjoy watching sports.

However, I just find the whole process of following a team to be a colossal
waste of time. All of the time spent reading about drafts and trades and
injuries and stats, they add up to hours every week – even without watching
any games. I personally would much rather be cooking or reading a novel or
playing video games or hiking. Some people would find those things to be a
colossal waste of time. _That 's okay._

There's no reason for us all to be so defensive about what we like and don't
like. I like sports, but I choose to spend my free time on other things. That
doesn't make my hobbies better or worse than Joe Football's. Just different.
End of story.

~~~
xxxyy
Often it just means they don't follow any teams, but not always. I, for
instance, don't care for any sports at all. I'm not even interested in
learning the rules, unless I play the sport myself. Same goes for some of my
friends.

------
mundizzle
i always found Chomsky's take on sports to be quite interesting...

"Take, say, sports -- that's another crucial example of the indoctrination
system, in my view. For one thing because it -- you know, it offers people
something to pay attention to that's of no importance. [audience laughs] That
keeps them from worrying about -- [applause] keeps them from worrying about
things that matter to their lives that they might have some idea of doing
something about. And in fact it's striking to see the intelligence that's used
by ordinary people in [discussions of] sports [as opposed to political and
social issues]. I mean, you listen to radio stations where people call in --
they have the most exotic information [more laughter] and understanding about
all kind of arcane issues. And the press undoubtedly does a lot with this.

You know, I remember in high school, already I was pretty old. I suddenly
asked myself at one point, why do I care if my high school team wins the
football game? [laughter] I mean, I don't know anybody on the team, you know?
[audience roars] I mean, they have nothing to do with me, I mean, why I am
cheering for my team? It doesn't mean any -- it doesn't make sense. But the
point is, it does make sense: it's a way of building up irrational attitudes
of submission to authority, and group cohesion behind leadership elements --
in fact, it's training in irrational jingoism. That's also a feature of
competitive sports. I think if you look closely at these things, I think,
typically, they do have functions, and that's why energy is devoted to
supporting them and creating a basis for them and advertisers are willing to
pay for them and so on."

[http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/1992----
02.htm](http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/1992----02.htm)

~~~
oofabz
This position taken by Chomsky is exactly what the article is denouncing, and
I think Chomsky comes off as a smug jerk here.

If Chomsky believes cheering for your classmates is stupid, then he must
believe that we should be perfectly objective and treat everyone exactly the
same. If you're a judge or President, you have an obligation to the public to
act that way. But me, I'm glad I have the luxury of showing preference to my
friends and family. I care about my neighbors more than people on the other
side of the world. And yes, I will root for my home team and cheer when they
win.

I don't believe it's irrational or wrong to play favorites this way. And even
if it were, it's so fundamental to being human that we could not be any other
way. Perhaps we are a jingoistic species.

~~~
robg
We are a tribal species. Teams (and schools) are modern tribes.

~~~
jpindar
Schools, nations, races, religions, you name it, we're just as tribal as apes.
At least in sports it's fairly explicit that while I think my tribe is the
best, you naturally think your tribe is the best, and that's OK, it doesn't
mean either of us are bad people and we can agree to disagree.

------
msluyter
I've felt for a while that not knowing much about sports has been a huge
liability. As in, sitting at lunch with co-workers locked out of the
conversation because I didn't know anything.

So, a couple of years ago, I had a sports-fanatic friend of mine sit with me
through a few football games and explain everything that was happening. This
unlocked my ability to relate to others (well, men). It was nothing short of
revelatory.

After a while though, my natural indifference reasserted itself and I never
bothered to do what's necessary -- like subscribe to cable -- to stay abreast
of things.

As for the article, I would suggest that the cause of sports disinterest might
not always be a form of cultural signaling (though I find that plausible.) In
my case, it goes back to childhood, where I was terrible at all sports. After
a while of getting made fun of, being picked last for teams, etc... I learned
that sports were simply not for me.

~~~
city41
I was disinterested in all sports up until about 4 years ago when my boss
randomly game me tickets to a hockey game. I found out I really like hockey
and have been a big fan since.

I think interest in sports is pretty healthy. But like all things, in
moderation. But it's not so much about sports specifically, but rather having
diverse interests is healthy.

------
ggreer
I don't follow sports, but I also don't go around professing my ignorance. If
someone changes the topic to sports, I still engage with them. I ask
questions, and they're usually happy to answer. A couple days ago, someone
delighted in telling me the story of Marshawn Lynch. (I had to look up the
name, but I did remember his antics with the press.)

Having common ground with more people is not a bad argument for learning about
sports. But I do have some qualms with the author's decision.

First, I cannot stress this enough: American football is an odious sport.
Players regularly suffer concussions, traumatic brain injuries, and joint
trauma. Permanent and debilitating injuries are common. The average player
lasts 3.5 years in the NFL. Then they are spat out and left to deal with a
lifetime of health issues. Yes, players freely choose their profession. So
what? The same argument can be used to defend dueling. Football is bad and
people should feel guilty watching it. If you're going to watch a popular
sport, watch baseball.

But really, what's so bad about being out of touch with most Americans? Why
draw the line at political borders? By population, vastly more people love
cricket or soccer than American football. I don't mind being out of touch with
sports enthusiasts regardless of their country of origin. If you're like me
and you spend most of your time with people who aren't interested in sports,
there's no point in learning about football or baseball. You already have
common ground. Is that living in a bubble? Yes. I like living in a bubble.
Economist Bryan Caplan explains the position better than I can.[1]

1\.
[http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/03/my_beautiful_bu....](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/03/my_beautiful_bu.html)

~~~
justin66
> American football is an odious sport. Players regularly suffer concussions,
> traumatic brain injuries, and joint trauma. Permanent and debilitating
> injuries are common.

In Europe, spectators suffer those while _watching_ football.

------
serve_yay
Sports are so prevalent that if you're not interested, it must be an affect :)

I can watch some sports for a while (basketball and football), but after a
couple hours it gets pretty boring, plus I've probably had some beers so the
combination tends to make me sleepy. It was exciting when I was in college and
rooting for my team at the stadium and all that, but how people connect with
teams outside of such a setting has never really made sense to me. I'm from
Pittsburgh, a city that loves their team, but it just doesn't connect with me
for whatever reason. I'd prefer if they win, sure. But that's about all.

And there is a lot of new info to keep on top of, every day. It strikes me as
somewhat of a serious commitment to be into sports, and though I like sports a
bit, that commitment isn't worth it to me. As I said, I can watch a game
alright (or really more like half to 3/4 of a game), but knowing which players
are good, who's having a good season, who is the new coach, etc, it's just way
too much uninteresting information. Like learning times tables again, or
something.

~~~
CocaKoala
It helps a lot if you have a friend who's really passionate about the sport;
you can leech off of their passion until you develop some of your own.

When I started dating the woman who would later be my wife, I would
occasionally watch hockey games with her; she is from Detroit and grew up an
ardent, passionate fan of the Red Wings. After a few games of her explaining
the rules and strategy, telling me about the fantastic teamwork between
Datsyuk and Zetterburg, and relating the history of the team with regards to
their regional rivals, I got in to it on my own time. We aren't able to watch
many Wings games now that we live in California, but we've got tickets to
watch them play the Sharks in a couple weeks.

The parent post is pretty spot on; you can really choose how much effort you
want to put in to being a sports fan. You don't need to know who's having a
good season or which players are the best if you don't want to; even just
casually browsing the sports page a couple times a week to see the standings
and the outcome of the latest game is enough to be able to hold a conversation
about it with somebody else.

~~~
tjradcliffe
I think you're underestimating the crashing indifference some of us feel
toward all sports. It's not cultivated, and it's not that we haven't tried or
been exposed to other's enthusiasms. It's not that we haven't played a bit
ourselves, even, at least at beer-league level.

My whole family is pretty nuts about American football, so I grew up
surrounded by it and can still appreciate the beauty and complexity of the
game, the strategy and execution. But I watch the Superbowl and that's it. I
_just can 't be bothered_ with anything else.

I used to play soccer with a bunch of Europeans who could happily discuss
Champions League play for hours. Never was able to muster up the interest to
do more than fake a short conversation.

I followed baseball for long enough to survive a World Series while living in
the US, during which time it was impossible to have a conversation with anyone
about anything that didn't involve the game. My interest lapsed the moment the
last bat was swung. It was just too much work to maintain.

 _Why_ do sports leave some of us so utterly flat? I have no idea (although
from reading some of the comments here apparently the world is full of people
who can tell on the basis of a few short sentences the entirety of a person's
motivations, which is a pretty good trick.) But it's the reality. So yeah, you
can choose how much effort you want to put into being a sports fan, but for
some of us the amount of effort required to engage beyond the most brain-dead
superficial level is _huge_ compared to the effort the average fan puts in
following their favourite team.

For whatever reason, some of us face a wall of indifference that makes the
effort of surmounting it simply not worth it.

[I half expect replies to tell me that "no I really just don't understand how
beautiful $GAME is", which is the flip side of that uncanny ability to know
everything about a person's motivations.]

~~~
CocaKoala
>But I watch the Superbowl and that's it. I just can't be bothered with
anything else.

That's totally fine! If the extent of your emotional commitment to football is
"I watch the superbowl and that's it", that's still a passing interest in the
sport and the sort of thing the article is encouraging.

The attitude that the article is lamenting is the people who go out of their
way to avoid being interested in football, the people who take pride in their
lack of interest. The sorts of people who, next Monday, are going to be
saying, "Oh, the superbowl was yesterday? I figured I'd just catch the
commercials on youtube; that's the only interesting part anyways. I don't even
know who was playing." That sort of disinterest is cultivated.

------
jleyank
Obligatory xkcd: [http://xkcd.com/1480/](http://xkcd.com/1480/)

You can watch sports, or you can participate in the watching of sports. One
requires real interest in the event while the other merely requires interest
in who's nearby. People are different. I'm into some sports and can't stand
others. But I like being social with friends, both F2F and online.

~~~
scott_s
I ordinarily dislike when people do this ("obligatory xcd: URL"), but that is
_today 's_ comic. So it is actually relevant. Today.

~~~
delecti
There's also the fact that the parent comment went on beyond simply linking
the relevant comic. Even being today's comic doesn't make it a useful comment
if that's all you say.

------
nlawalker
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss
people" \- Eleanor Roosevelt

Sports, in the context of the article, is 100% people and events.

I don't necessarily agree with the quote, I just wanted to point out that the
idea expressed here is the same. I don't think that intellectuals (to use the
author's term) are necessarily disinterested in sports in general. However, it
makes sense to me that that they would not be interested in news, drama and
specific professional athletes and their performances and relationships. In
many cases, that's all there is when it comes to using professional sports as
a basis for making conversation or building rapport.

~~~
randcraw
Wow. That's a really great quote. It captures my social values perfectly,
irrespective of sports, or my telling others what they should do.

Yes, sports are all about immersing yourself in the earnest discussion of
trivial minutiae. Maybe that's why intellectuals disdain it. It's a tempest in
a TV set.

But sports are also one of the very few venues which are: a) dramatic, b) can
be shared with friends, foes, and strangers alike, c) fair, and d) largely
unscripted.

Sports are a kind of platonic ideal -- a pure meritocracy: where the cream
rises to the top, where talent is rewarded, where justice is done, yet tragedy
may strike. In today's heavily commercialized, overproduced, and politicized
world, such fields of dreams are all too rare.

Finally and maybe most important, sports play to the need we all have to cheer
for for heros and heroics and to bathe in the glamour of their victory.

Maybe the inescapably gladiatorial nature of sports competition also
embarrasses the fine arts crowd?

------
santoriv
There seems to be an assumption in this article that the baseline "normal"
behavior is to be interested in sports.

Where I grew up (the rural South) sports is huge and the default topic of
conversation. I always felt that there was something wrong with me because I
wasn't that interested.

Then as an adult I moved to Vietnam, where people are only occasionally
interested in football(soccer) and that's pretty much it. By default people
_don 't_ care about sports. If took soccer fanatic and dropped them here, I
think their behavior would be perceived as pretty peculiar.

So to me this article is:

"You should agree my cultural assumptions because that is normal baseline
human behavior and if you don't then you are deliberately being a jerk."

Which is pretty silly.

Just like what you like and don't worry about it.

------
martythemaniak
I don't like the message of this post. I do understand (and see) the
cultivated disinterest he's talking about, but I would never suggest you try
and make yourself like something for the sole purpose of fitting in, ie
cultivating disinterest is bad, but so is cultivating this interest.

If you keep and open mind and follow your passions, you'll eventually stumble
on something you share enough with others. My disinterest in football is quite
genuine, but I enjoy the World Cup and Euro Cup. I also find it hilarious that
intellectuals apparently don't go for Heavy Metal, because I'd fall in his
"intellectual" category, but spent several years deeply engrossed in Metal and
I enjoy the Nordic and Prog subtypes.

~~~
GigabyteCoin
>so is cultivating this interest.

How so? Taking part in the things most inherent in your culture is arguably a
good thing.

It helps you keep in touch with the rest of the world. It helps you carry on
and start up conversations with your peers. It's easier to "break the ice".

It makes you feel more connected to society, which is something that I'm sure
most of us sitting behind a computer screen 24/7 certainly could use more of.

~~~
civilian
> How so? Taking part in the things most inherent in your culture is arguably
> a good thing.

Is it really? I'm not a Christian but that would be an easy way for me to have
something in common with most of America.

And the value of "it's good to go with the flow" isn't arguably good:
[http://mic.com/articles/92479/psychologists-have-
uncovered-a...](http://mic.com/articles/92479/psychologists-have-uncovered-a-
troubling-feature-of-people-who-seem-nice-all-the-time)

------
tessierashpool
Cognitive dissonance: the phrase "cultivated disinterest" precedes the
sentence "With a little effort, getting into sports is easy."

I'm not saying that looking down on people for their interests isn't small-
minded or awful. But I definitely disagree with the idea that you have to
_cultivate_ a lack of interest in a topic.

Also, consider this instead:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-
case...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-
high-school-sports/309447/)

As a first-generation American, the fact that you're more likely to pay for
college with a sports scholarship than an academic one seems completely insane
to me.

------
jcromartie
I think the problem that many geeks have with sports is the tribalism and the
blind devotion. We have a lower tolerance for religious fanaticism, even
barring the distro and editor wars. "Your" team won? Really? In what sense are
they _your_ team? Are you the coach? Are you a player? Or is it just because
your parents were fans, or you grew up near them, or they won last year?

When programmers engage in these kind of religious wars about their languages
or text editors (other than in a tongue-in-cheek way) they are considered rude
and antisocial neckbeards. But somehow it's rude or antisocial to _not_ get
behind this massive time, energy, and money sink that makes a few people
fabulously wealthy?

~~~
ashark
Exactly my problem with it. I can't understand truly _serious_ fandom for a
pro team, or even for college teams since they're recruited specifically for
the sport much the same way pro teams are.

I could understand it if it were tongue-in-cheek, as you write, just for fun's
sake, but it's usually not, as best I can tell. Many of these fans are quite
serious. They'll get no-joking _pissed off_ at people over this stuff. They'll
really initially dislike anyone they meet from $rivalCity. It's crazy.

Being a fan of a truly local team makes sense to me. A pro team? Not in a "ha-
ha we're all in on the joke isn't this fun" sort of way? Mind boggling.

------
ssalazar
People tend to view football as a bunch of dumb lugs pushing each other
around, but theres crazy amounts of raw physical strength, finesse, and smarts
involved. Each play might involve linemen pushing defenders one way or another
to mislead them just long enough to let the ball carrier run through. Watching
a great run play unfold is truly amazing, especially at the professional level
where the players are basically freaks of nature/superhuman.

Then theres the Odell Beckham catch from earlier this year which is just an
insane feat of athleticism:
[http://www.gfycat.com/PointedKindheartedAtlanticsharpnosepuf...](http://www.gfycat.com/PointedKindheartedAtlanticsharpnosepuffer)

2 years ago I thought football was stupid. Then I started actually watching it
and realized theres a lot more to it than I gave it credit for. Now I highly
anticipate the start of each season.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I think you might be onto something. I still find sport boring, though I
recall my interest in soccer increasing when I was learning things about game
strategies. Maybe simply some of us derive pleasure from the aspects that are
non-obvious first time you watch a match on TV.

~~~
taternuts
I find that unless you've played football, it's one of those sports where it
can be kind of hard to recognize great play at the line and other positions
that aren't featured as heavily as the QB/RB/WR's. The truth is though that at
that level there is always 100x more stuff going on than you could possibly
imagine; how far someone is leaning forward, if their right foot is slightly
ahead of their left, where their center of gravity is relative to their normal
stance, what moves were tried in previous situations and how will that affect
what they try now given what I think I/we am/are showing? When I played sports
at a high level, I always regarded my ability to think quickly and break down
situations further than my competition in the moment as to what made me
effective. There's a fair amount of slower freak athletes in the NFL that
don't need to win the mental battles as much because they are just so much
better physically and nothing can counter-act that, but there's also a ton of
really smart guys studying their ass off for that slight edge and beating the
bigger, stronger, faster with it.

Then there's guys who do both like JJ Watt

------
golemotron
I won't deny that there's a cultural aspect but I've never been into team
sports for the same reason I'm not into religion. When I was a kid I realized
that thinking your home team is better than everyone else's is something that
happens just because of where you are. It's the reason why people believe that
Jesus is better than Buddha or Mohammed also, or any other ordering of those
three.

Teams sports amplify and dignify an "us versus them" dynamic. I think that
part of us is one of the most problematic aspects of our nature.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
The whole discussion here is about intellectuals not liking sports but of all
these supposed intellectuals here in not seeing a lot of intellectual
reasoning. Rooting for a team is not the same as believing the universe is
actually based on some particular religion, I don't think we can equivocate
the two at all.

~~~
golemotron
They come from the same sociological root: in-group/out-group dynamics. I
don't know how much more intellectual you want to get.

------
bkjelden
I really enjoyed reading this.

I had a relatively blue collar american upbringing, but more or less since the
day I left for college I've been predominately surrounded by people from white
collar lifestyles, and this article really resonated with me.

As illustrated in the article, the difference between the cab driver and the
highly educated professional taking the cab is not as great as the latter
would often like you to believe it is. Life is a lot easier when you stop
pretending that things like sports or certain types of music are "below you".

~~~
eldavido
(American here) I'm not sure why we lionize "the common man" so much in the
US. The entire subtext of the article is that (1) we should have a shared
culture, (2) such a "shared national culture" should reflect the taste and
values of the "middle class" and that (3) people of taste/affluence/etc.
should make an effort to reach out to others in the name of "connection" or
"bonding" or something else.

I freely admit not being a "middle-class" American. From my cushy software job
on the 11th floor in SF, I really don't have any idea what it's like to earn
minimum wage, be a single parent, go to a country music concert, or eat at
McDonald's. But I don't think any of this makes me "better" than anyone else,
and I still treat people with respect, dignity, and compassion -- I just don't
feel the sense of _guilt_ or need to conform, that this article seems to
espouse.

I fight with my dad about this all the time, who works in a factory in
Illinois, and loves reminding me how out-of-touch I am, even as he asks me
what I think of Chicago sports, even though (1) I don't live in Illinois and
(2) I don't like sports. ;)

------
baddox
> Several years ago, I was at a talk by Michael Albert at MIT where he
> chastised American intellectuals for what he claimed was cultivated disdain
> of professional sports.

Is that a thing? I've certainly never noticed it from the outside looking in
on American intellectualism, or from my more direct experience with educated
acquaintances.

My own take is that I enjoy athletic excellence, but disdain the laughably
irrational fandom that almost always overwhelms any gathering or discussion
involving major televised sports. When there is a controversial judgement made
by referees, why is there such a strong correlation because the team you
support and the way you think the call should have gone? Why is it always the
team you support that the announcers and referees are biased against? It's
just so inane and boring that I have zero interest participating in it.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Indeed. My dislike for sports is twofold - for one, I suck at it (wearing
glassess at the age of 10 didn't help in becoming a good soccer player,
_especially goalkeeper_ ), and I find it boring. Though I'm aware this is
something easily changed when one starts playing more.

But the second issue I have is an issue with the culture around professional
sport, which is exactly as you described. It highlights the worst aspects of
humans - extreme irrationality and willingness to go to a conflict over a
completely arbitrary things. I strive to avoid participating in that.

------
bitwize
tl;dr everybody likes sports, and if you don't like sports than you're weird
and might not really be human. Been hearing that since high school. Am sick of
it.

I literally _can 't_ be _arsed_ to give a shit about sports. I know about
football and baseball and can understand most sports-related metaphors, but I
really don't have the energy to invest in knowing what the Patriots are doing.
(Although I followed the Deflategate scandal with some amusement; where I live
the Patriots are gods among men and I confess it's a bit nice to see their
reputation, er, deflated.)

So when I need to talk to "ordinary people", I fall back on other pop-culture
referents, usually music and movies. Even trashy, mass market music and movies
I can get into. Discussing Pokémon was once even a useful ice breaker -- in
Japan.

~~~
clay_to_n
>tl;dr everybody likes sports, and if you don't like sports than you're weird
and might not really be human

That is absolutely NOT what the article states. The articles argument is
basically "If you don't like sports, you might be condescending and
exclusionary about it. Sports are a near universal conversation topic. If you
try getting into them just for the social benefit, you might find you actually
like them."

------
spacemunkay
In summary, you should try liking things that a lot of other people like
because you might like them yourself and it will help you make conversation
with those that also like them.

~~~
serve_yay
My father has been a sales guy for a long time, and he got into playing golf
for this reason. He never liked watching sports, which if you're in sales is a
bit of a handicap. He doesn't even know the rules of a football game. So the
golf gave him something in that space to talk with others about, without
having to keep on top of sports news.

Plus it's OK if you suck at golf, everyone you're playing with sucks too. And
if they don't suck, you make them look even better. And you get to walk around
on a (usually) nicely manicured bit of grass on a (hopefully) sunny day.

~~~
mod
I'm not sure how this works.

"Hey, who's your pick in the superbowl?" "I like to golf!"

~~~
Avshalom
In a world of pedants it wouldn't but the same way short genre fiction and
multi volume biographies get lumped together in "reading" any sport is enough
to give you a couple of sports related conversational gambits.

~~~
mod
I worked in a bar for a long time. I love playing basketball, and I'm the best
pool player in my area (and the bar was full of pool players).

That never sufficed for knowing about football. People want to talk football.

They like talking pool with me too, and it's not like I was cast out of the
social circle over it--but most sports conversations, in my experience, start
out very specifically.

"Who you like in the SEC this year?"

"You been watching this cheating stuff with Belichick?"

Don't know who Belichick is? You're not going to fudge a conversation, most
likely.

------
PaulHoule
I would say a cultivated disinterest is not really a disinterest.

At one point in my life I had access to a TV transmitter and an input to the
head end of a cable system so I did some "Captain Midnight" things and I
learned very quickly that you don't mess with people's sports any more than
you mess with an animal's food.

Every so often I put new batteries in my TV-B-Gone and my experience with that
is that people rarely care (and might even cheer) if you turn off CNN, the
Weather Channel, CNBC, the Cartoon Network or even ESPN Sports Center but it
is part of my personal code that I will never turn off a game.

Rational or not, sports mean a lot to people and you've got to respect that.
Personally I don't seek out a lot of pro sports but I watch the Superbowl
every year and I am definitely excited to see the Pats in it. When I am
visiting friends or out and about I definitely enjoy watching a game.

------
graeme
I played sports in school, and have no problem understanding them. But
watching sports doesn't interest me.

This doesn't seem to cause me problems. I can talk to working class people
about other topics easily. I also have no reason to go around bashing sports,
so this helps I'm sure.

One thing I've noticed is that it does block me from being close friends with
certain men. Because their favorite leisure activity is watching a lot of
sports with friends. That's far too high a commitment for me since I truly
dislike watching sports on TV.

~~~
Rapzid
Same experience here. I've rotated through a few number of personal sports
into adult land though. That really helps because you'll find others that
similarly enjoy what you're doing and don't care for watching sports either.
Good exercise too. Stuff like cycling and rock climbing are particularly good
cause it makes sense to go on road trips.

------
rwallace
I have no opinion on whether you should become a fan of professional sports;
by all means do if you want.

I do, however, have an opinion on which one if so. Supporting American
football, which causes irreversible brain damage in 100% of players [1] [2],
is very much not okay. Maiming and crippling people for entertainment is a
moral atrocity, and shame on the author for condoning it.

[1] [http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/10/19/offensive-
play](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/10/19/offensive-play)

[2] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/11/opinion/what-i-saw-as-
an-n...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/11/opinion/what-i-saw-as-an-nfl-ball-
boy.html?_r=0)

------
wtbob
You know, growing up I absolutely loathed sports. I didn't understand them (we
never watched them in my house), and sports-lovers never explained them; I
still remember my gym 'teacher' yelling about 'first and ten' when we had to
play flag football, and never actually explaining what it meant. I wasn't any
good at them, due at least in part to my bad eyes. In retrospect, I suspect
that I also disliked them, whether played or watched, because they were a
social situation and I wasn't terribly good at social situations.

In retrospect, I do kind of wish that I'd gotten into them, because they are a
bonding experience for so many, and they do provide the grounds for a somewhat
better level of small talk than idle chit-chat about the weather. And they
certainly can be enjoyable to play.

But as it is, I just don't emotionally get it. Watching sports is _boring_ ;
it simply doesn't connect. Why should I care if a group of millionaires from
my town are running around on some grass with a group of millionaires from
your town? Why should I be happy that my taxes are higher in order to raise
money for buildings for those same millionaires? Why would I want to spend
hours a week and hundreds of dollars watching rich people exercise, talking
about rich people exercising and thinking about rich people exercising?

It just doesn't make sense to me. Part of me wishes it did; obviously I am
unlike most people. But part of me is glad, too. In some ways, I feel like the
little boy in the The Emperor's New Clothes; in others I feel like I'm blind.

As an aside, I thought this quote was just hilarious:

> The machoness and absence of women in the highest levels of most
> professional sports bothers[sic] me deeply.

I really wonder how one can have working eyes, possess a functioning brain and
have come to adulthood and still be surprised that in almost any physical
competition the absolute best competitors will be male. It takes a pretty
sincere dedication to being disconnected from reality to manage that. It'd be
like saying, 'avian over-representation and the absence of fish from the air
bother me deeply.'

------
canvia
There are several reasons why I dislike sports.

Professional sports are expensive and inefficient forms of entertainment. What
is your cost (and opportunity cost) per hour for sports? Compared to films,
books, video games, or board games you are burning money/time on a completely
passive experience. When was the last time you learned something about
yourself or others while watching a sporting event? Do they cause you to think
at all?

Sports create an "us VS them" mentality that creates division. I much prefer
following space exploration in which the opponent is objective based and
nature itself.

Live events are used as delivery mechanisms for the marketing of inferior
products like fast food restaurants, poor quality beers, fashion brands,
processed foods, etc. The mentality that "I must watch it live" is constantly
reenforced, requiring consumption of marketing. The phenomenon of the sports
bar further encourages consumption of unhealthy food and poor quality beer
(leading to drinking and driving).

For those reasons I no longer watch any sporting events. Now I watch eSports
on Twitch to get my dose of live entertainment.

~~~
billyvg
\- You can watch sports at home, on a TV, through your OTA antennae, costing
you nothing

\- When was the last time you learned something about yourself or others while
watching an eSports event? Do they cause you to think at all?

~~~
canvia
Except for the games that are only carried on cable networks like ESPN, Fox
Sports, NFL network etc. which you MUST watch if you are a true fan.

The hosts of many Twitch channels talk about their philosophies on life and
interact directly with their fans to have meaningful discussions.

------
markc
Anyone else wish people would stick with "disinterested" == "impartial" rather
than "disinterested" == "uninterested"? Yeah, I know, language changes, so
deal. I guess so, but is there no value in fighting the tide of sloppiness?
Where do you draw the line? Probably way too late on this one.

------
delecti
I assure you, I did not need to cultivate my disinterest in professional
sports.

Also, any disdain I have for the subject is entirely centered around the fans.
Sports fans have a tendency to assume that everyone is a sports fan, and act
accordingly. I don't shame anyone for not liking board games, don't shame me
for not caring about whatever latest playoff is going on.

Also, when delays in my commute can be directly attributable to a specific
event, you can bet I'm going to develop negative feelings towards it.

------
rohunati
I am always puzzled at how "high brow" people scoff at sports. There is so
much to learn from athletes. MJ, Kobe, Tom Brady -- these guys have all the
skill in the world, but more impressive than their skill is their incredible
work ethic. I feel there's a lot to learn here.

For example, one of Kobe's conditioning trainer's had this to say:

"When I arrived and opened the room to the main practice floor I saw Kobe.
Alone. He was drenched in sweat as if he had just taken a swim. It wasn’t even
5AM.

We did some conditioning work for the next hour and fifteen minutes. Then we
entered the weight room, where he would do a multitude of strength training
exercises for the next 45 minutes. After that we parted ways and he went back
to the practice floor to shoot. I went back to the hotel and crashed. Wow."

Later on, around 11AM, the trainer sees Kobe on the court, practicing with the
USA Olympic Squad, and has this conversation:

"So when did you finish?"

"Finish what?"

"Getting your shots up. What time did you leave the facility?"

"Oh just now. I wanted 800 makes so yeah, just now."

...

This is not unique to Kobe, you find stories like this with all athletes in
conversation for "greatest of all time."

Secondly, there's a lot to learn from coaches as well, especially from the
perspective of a startup founder. There's a reason Keith Rabois brought up the
Bill Walsh's (SF 49ers coach) book, "The Score Takes Care of Itself," in the
HTSAS lecture series.

Lastly, watching sports at a high level is like appreciating great art. A
great backhand in tennis, a brilliant pass by a quarterback, these all have a
quality of beauty about them. I feel they induce similar awe-inspiring
feelings one might find in an art museum, a great music album, etc.

------
callmeed
If being into sports is a conscious decision, you're probably not really
_into_ sports.

Maybe I'm reading between the lines incorrectly but this post has an air of
condescension and elitism. The white-collar, academic author _decides_ to like
sports because another white-collar, academic told him it was good for him. It
almost feels like he chose to like sports to assuage some form of guilt.

Maybe I'm wrong and this is just normal for people in academia, I don't know.

At least he's a Patriots fan ;)

~~~
mjlangiii
It may feel like that but we don't know his true motive. I'll take him at his
word that he is seeking an avenue by which to build real relationships with
people.

For example, if your spouse has an interest, you declined to share it until
you realize it could bring you closer together, and then you pursue her
interest with her then who am I to say you aren't really into it?

Just like you can develop a taste for IPA beer you can develop a true
enjoyment of football. I think your point is better taken as, this is a good
idea but be careful not to misuse or misunderstand it's goal.

------
josephjrobison
I played (American) football from 2nd grade to 12th grade and although I
wasn't the best, I loved it. I was also an AP/IB student so the two circles
didn't really overlap. But now I only follow a bit of college football and the
playoffs for the NFL. I still love playing the sport, but I feel it's very
unproductive to sit and watch for 3-10 hours every weekend, that's the main
reason I don't get into it enough and can't keep up with the stats and news
that coworkers and friends rattle off during the day.

I do agree with the premise of this article, that to communicate with more
people, we should put 1% of the effort into following sports as we do into
building businesses or progressing career wise.

Something I've always thought about, refreshing piece.

------
al2o3cr
"But they provide an easy — and enjoyable — way to build common ground with
our neighbors and fellow citizens that transcend social boundaries."

They also provide hundreds of millions of dollars in profits to a tiny group
of people while permanently injuring players both physically and mentally.
Then there's the massive transfers of taxpayer money to build stadia that
sometimes NEVER turn a profit, the domestic abuse, the culture of covering up
sexual assault, the homophobia, the long and troubled racial history...

Seriously, fuck sportzball. As a new way to "build common ground", try
actually being a human.

------
themensch
To quote a wise man, "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't
understand."

------
samspot
I used to have the attitude he mentioned, and when my eyes opened, I rejected
it. Then I forced myself to watch American Football for a season. I actually
had a good time. But I just couldn't really get into it. Problem is that when
I have free time, I typically prefer to spend it doing other things. Not
having cable doesn't help matters either.

Maybe I'll give it another shot. It seems worth it to be able to connect to
more people.

~~~
lkowalcz
Maybe try joining a Fantasy Football league with some of your friends? Doing
this will greatly improve your enjoyment because you will be invested in the
performance of the players / teams on your fantasy team.

~~~
samspot
Yeah, that's exactly what I did, with coworkers. Sorry I didn't mention it.
Nobody does them at the new job, I think it might be banned :(

------
wdhilliard
I recognize the prevalance of sports in society. I still can not recognize the
importance. You might think that is a rude statement if you like sports. You
might also think that "Kim Kardashian (and the things she does) are not
important" is a rude statement if you like celebrity gossip. Personally I
don't see much difference between the two. I do however find it more rude that
people won't ask me personal questions or feign interest in my hobbies, yet
sports fans find no problem with going out to a bar and talking about nothing
else for the entirety of their stay. Have you ever hung out with a group of
coworkers who worked for a company that you don't work for? Did they talk
about their job the entire time? Was it incredibly boring? That is how non-
sports fans feel every time one of their friends starts talking about last
week's game. To clarify, I understand sports just fine. I still do not enjoy
them. How does this possibly make ME a dick? If you think that the best way to
relate to people is to discuss their hobbies, you have really only scratched
the surface of human interaction.

------
wallflower
I remember meeting my sister's friends in Chicago once. Even before their
first son was able to walk, they were putting an inflatable baseball bat into
his hands and teaching him how to swing it. Giving him big smiles when he did
an approximation of the classic bat swing. Later they threw a giant beach ball
as the ball. They happen to be Cubs season ticket holders - so yes by the time
he was in kindergarten - he'd been to more games than many adults.

While this is an extreme example, it shows that a love of sports is passed
down by parents to their kids. Really, a love of anything can be passed down
(working on your car in your garage). Love and passion, can't beat them.

I grew up without watching football or major professional sports on a regular
basis. Mostly because my dad did not watch any. To this day, I really can't
understand football (American) - not the game, but the obsession, TV
commercial timeouts and all.

Sports is such a big part of American culture that it is part of many of our
childhoods.

As one of my college friends explained to me, watching football on Sundays
with the guys is not really about watching football - it's about hanging out.

------
gdulli
Sports will always fill a niche in that it's the one type of entertainment
that's truly live and not predictable.

Drama is predictable in a way that sports aren't. Seeing it live doesn't
change that. Live theater has benefits and may be enjoyable, but it doesn't
address predictability. Even if the viewer doesn't know the outcome, the
outcome is fixed. And it falls within a predictable range of acceptable
usually-happy endings. (Not strictly, but very commonly.)

Drama is great, of course, I love it. But sports does offer something
different to complement it.

Sports has some outcomes that are narrow (win vs. lose) and others that are
open-ended (the arc of a player's career, a unique play that's never been
seen, off-the-field drama.) They couldn't be predictable or else betting on
sports wouldn't be sustainable.

You have to get yourself to care about an outcome in order for its
unpredictability to be interesting, and I can see how it seems contrived that
anyone would care, but the point isn't to take it seriously.

(I guess you could call improv also live and not predictable, or find other
more obscure examples.)

------
disputin
I have no interest in ball games. I enjoy Formula 1, some MotoGp, and some
some cycling. My interest in Formula 1 used to be primarily strategy, but not
anymore and I'm not sure when it changed - maybe refuelling, or moving
everyone onto the same tyres. There's is nothing cultivated about my
disinterest in ball games. If I did have an interest in football/soccer then I
would cultivate a disinterest because I wouldn't support something so
regularly in the news for corruption. My first live football/soccer game was
one of the biggest let downs of my life - I sat there dumbfounded that anyone
could be interested. I found the live games look better the further up I sat
in the stands, and the bigger the stadium, but still no interest. I went to a
rugby final something or other (Wasps vs Leicester?) and fell asleep. There is
no chance of me following them just to have small talk with someone, I can
work around that.

------
acadien
We can talk about music, politics (civilly), travel, technology,
relationships, family, friends, books, TV... but since we can't talk about
sports that is somehow a problem?

If you're interested in sports go for it, if you're not then avoid them.
Making conversation and forming new relationships with people has nothing to
do with watching football.

------
dlwj
Each social subgroup or culture maintains its identity through shared
cultivated interest in some areas, and cultivated disinterest in others.

The degree to which this interest or disinterest is realized is determined by
how much an individual wants to be part of a group.

Wine appreciation, which is associated with high status, attracts rather
clunky attempts at cultivated interested.

Religious group detractors cultivate a far more antagonistic disinterest.

No one likes beer as children but because people want to fit in so much with
the "fun" group, they cultivate heavy interests and tastes for it.

Sports for the most part is tied down to location. A small levels it
associates you with your school, and at higher levels it associates you with
your city, state, or even country.

Groups often compete against other groups for resources in a 0 sum game.
Sports passion can actually be used to measure the level of "loyalty" a person
has to a group. The most loyal people will put his or her group above other
groups to the detriment of others.

(This nepotism is actually necessary for stable groups. We treat are friends
and family this way. Also, if a morally superior alien race of 10 trillion
decides the destruction of earth is a necessary evil, meritocracy requires we
die willingly)

I don't care much about the state of the homeless in San Francisco. It makes
me sound cold but it's the truth. To me, I don't understand why I should care
more about this than the homeless in some other state, or the starving and
dying in some other country.

People don't like these "free-agents" because they seem completely selfish and
base everything on cold logic and meritocracy than warm immediate empathy.
They can't be trusted to do what's right for the group, in fact, they may just
jump ship when some other better group shows up.

Sports fanaticism is a reasonable measure of this.

------
jqm
Why in the world would I try to take an interest in a topic I have no interest
in in order to fit in with people on a level I have no interest in fitting in?

Life is very simply to short to be excited about these kind of things. As it
is, I don't even have time to find out everything I really do want to find
out.

If I did have to get interested in something I have absolutely zero interest
in, it might as well be fashion shows. I'm thinking the romance potential
might be higher than with sports.

If people are interested in professional sports fine... I don't feel elitist
or look down on them. I do scratch my head and wonder to myself that they
don't have something more interesting to do with their time, but whatever. I
don't claim to know what everyone else should like. I sure don't have to be
interested though.

------
TulliusCicero
Watching sports is a perfectly fine method of entertainment on its own, but I
have two problems with it as a whole:

1\. Dominance of sports culture is distracting to students in high school and
college, and acts as a money sink. Playing sports is great, but I'm not sure
why we subsidize it so much (talking about competitive teams here, not
intramurals/PE).

2\. The degree to which many people (obviously not most sports watchers, but a
substantial minority) are obsessed with sports and tie up their identity in a
given team is just insane. People will legit get angry about their team losing
or having bad calls or whatnot, to the extent that sports riots or getting in
fights because you liked the wrong team in the wrong place is a real thing.
That's crazy!

------
wavefunction
I enjoy playing sports but watching or following them is boring to me. I
played a fair amount of sports in high-school as they were mandated, though
you could satisfy the requirement with theater or theater-tech or "mathlete"
style competition which I took part in a few times instead of my winter sport.

That said, this may be a strategy for connecting with other people but there's
all sorts of small-talk you can make with someone else, but it might involve
some human vulnerability on your part. I make non-sports-related small-talk
with pretty much anyone unless it's obvious they want to be left alone. I'd
rather be talking to women anyways, and "talking sports" doesn't get you all
that far.

~~~
wavefunction
And just for reference on my sports "bonafides" as unimpressive as they may
be: I enjoy playing soccer and lacrosse. I varsity lettered in both all four
years and was all-state in lacrosse.

Once I hit college I just wasn't tall enough to play at the collegiate level.

------
grandalf
I've tried multiple times to become interested in spectator sports. To date
the only ones I find even mildly interesting are:

\- NBA Finals basketball

\- World Series of Poker

\- UFC

Football is slow-paced and disheartening b/c of all the drives that end with a
punt. Baseball is slow-paced. Hockey is OK but after a watching for 10 minutes
I start to get board. Tennis and Golf are both extremely frustrating as well.

I love to participate in Amateur Radio Radiosport and have done quite well at
it, and also love SCUBA and snowboarding but not in a competitive way
(watching or participating).

So I guess it's a mystery to me how people can find mainstream sports so worth
sinking time/energy into. If I were in sales I'd certainly glance at the
sports page now and then.

~~~
matwood
Golf in particular was hard to watch on TV until I started playing golf. The
concentration required to hit near perfect shots over and over across 4 days
is insane. The other beauty of golf is that almost anyone can go out and hit
that perfect shot once and relate just a bit. Golf is also very easy to
handicap between skill levels making it easy for various people to play
together (my wife and I can 'compete' with the handicap in place).

Football is the perfect party/passive sport. There is so much downtime you can
have entire conversations and still watch the game. I do not know what the
stats are now, but the NFL has done a lot to give the offense the advantage
and up the scoring. The problem I have with the NFL on TV is not showing the
full 22. When you watch that view you see how little margin of error there is
during the game. The QB looking left a 1/2 second sooner and a sack could have
been a TD and vice versa.

------
bmoresbest55
As a person who has played many sports and specifically basketball to a
college D1 level I find this article both true and troubling. This is because
I also enjoy discussing things at a high level. I enjoy the fact that I can
talk to a person about Turing tests (or any CS related topic) and then turn
the conversation right into how the Baltimore Ravens need better defensive
backs for next season (Baltimore/DC fan here).

I think that people who engage in elitism are extremely petty and self-
centered and I have told the few that I come across so. No one is better than
any other person based on their passions or interests.

I just want everyone to be friends. Is that so hard to ask?

~~~
dragonwriter
> As a person who has played many sports and specifically basketball to a
> college D1 level I find this article both true and troubling. This is
> because I also enjoy discussing things at a high level. I enjoy the fact
> that I can talk to a person about Turing tests (or any CS related topic) and
> then turn the conversation right into how the Baltimore Ravens need better
> defensive backs for next season (Baltimore/DC fan here).

I'm glad that you enjoy that, and its great for you. I'm not sure why that
should dissuade anyone else from choosing not participate in the ritual of
fandom in the particular professional sports that are widely popular, or why
the fact that you enjoy it should make it "troubling" that other people choose
not to engage with it.

> I just want everyone to be friends. Is that so hard to ask?

No, it is easy to ask anything. It is also unreasonable. Friendship, if it is
to be meaningful, is a positive commitment of time and resources. _Everyone_
can't be friends without robbing the term of all meaning, because there are
too many people.

~~~
bmoresbest55
> I'm glad that you enjoy that, and its great for you. I'm not sure why that
> should dissuade anyone else from choosing not participate in the ritual of
> fandom in the particular professional sports that are widely popular, or why
> the fact that you enjoy it should make it "troubling" that other people
> choose not to engage with it.

I am not trying to dissuade anyone from anything. All I am saying to be more
open to the way other people may think or have passion for. Also, from the
actual post, the author correctly summarizes that sports can be something too
bridge gaps between all types of people. So in effect, you are saying people
do not want/need this capability? The ability to be able to talk to another
human being able something mildy to fanatically interesting?

> No, it is easy to ask anything. It is also unreasonable. Friendship, if it
> is to be meaningful, is a positive commitment of time and resources.
> Everyone can't be friends without robbing the term of all meaning, because
> there are too many people.

You're right because I just asked it. Also, the definition of friend is
relatively broad and I am half glass full kind of guy. Finally, you may taking
my comments and possibly yourself a little to serious, my friend.

------
Estragon
My indifference is not cultivated. It comes from a native disdain of
authoritarianism and tribalism. Not sure why it would be desirable to make
small talk with people about uninteresting things.

I do enjoy some heavy metal, though.

------
austerity
I cultivated interest in golf to build rapport with the upper class. That
didn't sound right, did it? Now is there any real difference between that and
what the author is saying? I don't see one.

~~~
siegecraft
Apparently you missed where you used the word "upper" or thought that it was
equivalent to "lower," when in fact they are opposites. My apologies for this
gentle correction if you are not a native english speaker.

~~~
austerity
I am not a native speaker FWIW but "upper" is exactly what I wanted to say. My
point was that if you replace football with golf and working class with upper
class the whole idea of cultivating interest in sport to fit with some social
group starts to sound really cheesy. And that author's "noble" intent is a fig
leaf on what sounds like a rather pointless exercise to me. Although I cannot
pinpoint exactly why.

(btw, I am not the one who downvoted you. HN got really trigger-happy lately)

~~~
siegecraft
I don't think it sounds cheesy, in fact there are tons of people who play golf
(or at least only get into it) for the business and networking aspects of it.
The difference is that building rapport with the upper class is probably seen
as self-serving while building rapport with the lower class is maybe construed
as altruistic, noble, self-sacrificing? It really comes down to common
courtesy; if you are pleasant to rich upper class people it can be dismissed
as sucking up; if you treat people in the lower class the same way, there's
less room to dismiss it as anything but genuine niceness.

------
te_platt
This doesn't just apply to sports. Most people don't share my enthusiasm for
math and science but most people are enthusiastic about something. I enjoy
asking people what they do for fun, or about an interesting (to them) project
they may be working on. Almost any topic can be interesting when explained by
someone with the right passion. Even if I don't especially care about a given
topic it's not too much work to appreciate why someone else might, which is a
good way to avoid being a snobbish jerk.

------
jplahn
I find this a fascinating topic to think about because I've had so much
experience with it.

Sports have been a significant part of my life ever since I was in 1st grade.
I played several varsity sports throughout high school and had opportunities
for scholarships in two different sports. One of those sports was golf and I
find that it elicits the opposite response in a way that I hate (but also
understand).

When I've been at interviews for Google, Facebook, Amazon, wherever, I
inevitably talk about sports with the other undergrads that are interviewing
with me. In an effort to avoid the perception that I'm some sort of country
club WASP, I rarely mention that I played extremely high level golf throughout
high school. I fear that it won't fit into the "culture" of various places
that I've applied to and likely won't mesh with those I'm talking to. So
instead, I let my "hipster"-ish clothing, love of post-hardcore metal, and
interest in all books not found on the NYT Bestseller list, craft whatever
perception people may have of me.

But despite this, I can talk about the NBA and NFL with the best of them and
I'm getting to the point where I don't care what people think because I've
found it's too hard to worry about it. If I want to go throw some iron over my
head 4 times a week and people consider me a meathead, so be it. But it's a
whole lot easier to have them think that than to try to hide it for ridiculous
reasons.

------
mindcrime
_Bethany Bryson, a sociologist at JMU has shown that increased education is
associated with increased inclusiveness in musical taste (i.e., highly
educated people like more types of music) but that these people are most
likely to reject music that is highly favored by the least educated people.
Her paper’s title sums up the attitude: "Anything But Heavy Metal"._

This is hilarious given that there have been studies showing that metal fans
are smarter than non-metal fans! At any rate, the idea that interest in heavy-
metal marks one as "working class" or "non-intellectual" is totally absurd.
But, then again, so is the idea that "intellectual" and "working class" are
disjoint sets. (Yes, you can define either or both terms to create that
distinction, but it's clearly not true when using the vernacular / intuitive
definition for both).

As far as sports... I have never understood the attitude some self-styled
"intellectuals" have in regards to sports. There is a tremendous amount of
benefit to be gained from _participating_ in sports of various types, and if
one participates in a sport at an amateur level, it follows that one's passion
for that sport would extend to wanting to watch the highest level competitors
compete with each other.

I suppose the analogy would make sense to the "intellectual" set if you just
defined chess as a sport. :-)

------
chrischen
I have friends who aren't into sports, but follow e-sports as if it were a
physical sport.

I can't get into either though. I think it has more to do than intellectuals
not liking spectating sports.

~~~
Rapzid
I'm the same way. I love playing sports personally. I'm more into individual
sports like racket, cycling, etc, though I have played soccer and such way
back. But I just can't really get into spectating and never had. For me I'd
much rather be doing my own thing than watching somebody else do theirs; I
lose interest pretty quickly. That includes both e-sports and physical sports.
I'll enjoy the odd game day BBQ and beers with the guys though.

------
j2kun
While I don't condone rudeness about sports (I don't like watching sports, but
when my friends and family want to do it I politely watch and listen),
politeness about what people love is a two-way street that I understand
vividly in my profession: mathematics.

Because if there's _anything_ that people compete to show their ignorance
about, it's basic mathematics. I would gladly become a die-hard sports fan if
it meant the average person I meet didn't talk they way they do about math.

------
sarciszewski
I've never liked sports.

My reasons had very little to do with academia or privileged tech culture. I
grew up poor in a blue collar part of Florida. I can keenly recall that my dad
is an Oakland Raiders fan while my mom favors the Minnesota Vikings.

My dislike for sports began with not being good at anything physical. Running,
kickball, dodgeball, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, baseball, flag football,
etc. I was jaded towards them at school, so I focused other activities
(drawing, writing, reading, and of course, programming).

My hobbies were frequently disrupted by sports. Pep rallies were the bane of
my existence in high school. Every time a decisive sports game was on the air,
I couldn't avoid the cacophony of drunkards yelling in vain at a television.
"GO GO GO GO GO!"

"Pfft, they can't hear you, morons," I would say. After a while, I invested in
a pair of headphones.

I graduated from high school in 2008. It's been years since sports were in any
way forced upon me. I still don't like sports. Not because it's cool to
dislike them, but because it was a nuisance for so many years of my life.

But if someone else likes sports? That's cool. I'll listen and ask questions
even if I don't really give a shit. It's called being a decent human being.

------
remarkEon
After reading through a lot of these comments...I just have to ask, does
anyone ever just play sports for fun? There seems to be a lot of real visceral
and negative feelings toward organized sports - even beyond the professional
leagues.

Does anyone enjoy just watching baseball? I absolutely love Fantasy baseball.
It's a great intellectually stimulating way to just relax. Am I allowed to
relax, or am I supporting some grand corporate conspiracy.

This thread is quite sad to me.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
No you are clear not hipster enough. :) Actually, for people that just don't
like sports, fine, but a lot of what's been written is pseudo-intellectual
jibber jabber about tribalism blah blah jingoism, etc.

------
peckrob
I have a hard time following professional sports because I don't feel any
connection to the team. I live in a smaller city so we don't have any top-tier
professional sports, just a minor league baseball team that's about to move, a
minor league hockey team and some semi-pro teams. I would nominally say I'm a
fan of the Titans as they're the closest NFL team, but they're still an hour
and a half away and, anyways, it's more "oh, look, they're on, guess I'll
watch."

But, I LOVE college sports. I graduated from to a major SEC university
(Auburn) and attended all but one home game the 5 seasons I was there, as well
as at least one away game each season. Same with basketball, only my
attendance wasn't quite so diligent.

But I feel a connection with that team, even years later. That's my school.
When I was there, they were my classmates. I had a geology class with the
quarterback. Even now, years removed from my time as a student, I never miss a
game on TV and try to make it down there at least once a season.

Seeing the stadium, seeing the band, hearing the roar of the crowd at kickoff,
smelling the barbecue and bourbon in the air. The indescribable thrill of
seeing a live eagle fly down and land in the middle of the field. Watching the
chess match between the the two insanely intelligent coaches, watching the
plays executed by talented players who are still often works in progress - not
finely tuned professional athletes. And stepping foot back on campus once
again. All those potent memories come flooding back. It truly is a wonderful
experience for me. An unbelievable rush.

Some of my fraternity brothers and I even have a long running iMessage group
that sees hundreds of messages on gameday going back and forth as the four of
us cheer, analyze, celebrate and commiserate. Even though we're separated by
different occupations and thousands of miles, we maintain that link that was
our time together and our shared interest in sport.

Stephen Fry captured it perfectly in this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuPeGPwGKe8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuPeGPwGKe8)

But I've heard NFL fans talk about their teams exactly how I talk about
Auburn. So I wonder if it might be different if I lived in a city that
actually had a real top-tier professional team. Some way of having a
connection to this team.

------
climatewarrior2
That's all fine and dandy, I've never had an interest in watching sports on TV
and I would rather spend my CPU cycles in other stuff. Time is a precious
resource and I have other priorities and other hobbies/interests for which I
actually care. That said, I do enjoy watching live games and occasionally
playing some sports with friends.

------
skidoo
Alan Watt nailed it long ago:

[http://youtu.be/C6hiMLQs50E](http://youtu.be/C6hiMLQs50E)

------
blacksmith_tb
For someone who sets out to change their social interactions, the author is
surprisingly not very aware of dynamics at work here. The 'disdainful
academics' are maintaining social boundaries just as much as the fans of a
local team. Of course they go to great lengths to explain that to each other,
they are actively maintaining that boundary. Whether or not you personally
like or dislike sports, (or 'the other team') is very different from social
displays which assert your allegiances. I do think there's something to be
said for refusing to conform, however - whether that's telling your fellow
academics they're missing out, or telling folks at the bar that professional
sports are a lot less fun that throwing a ball around in the park.

------
otakucode
Sports, like any large body of knowledge, requires a dedication of a great
deal of brain-hours to become proficient at. Actually participating in sports
requires an order of magnitude more investment, of course. Since human beings
have limited time available to them, they MUST sacrifice something else in
order to become knowledgeable about sports. For me, this is why I have no
interest in sports. The game mechanics interest me, the statistics interest
me, and I could find a lot of avenues to approach the subject enjoyably... but
I would have to give up something else. And the other things I occupy myself
with are, in my opinion, more worth my time.

------
awkward
As someone who doesn't like sports, who grew up in an environment where sports
were very prominent, going to college and having the opportunity to dismiss
popular sports, call it sportsball, and actually connect with people on that
was a breath of fresh air, and felt like a goddamn treasure at the time.

Now that I'm not 18 anymore, I can see where this article is coming from. I
don't have the luxury of only talking to people in my peer group, and I've
learned a little bit from sports about how to get excited from other people's
excitement. Still, I feel like I had to leave an environment where sports were
Mandatory Fun to get that enjoyment.

------
vickytnz
tl;dr I decided to take interest in something that lots of other people do so
I could talk to them.

I remember reading an article about the British show Bullseye that pointed out
that the blue-collar workers shown in the 80s episodes actually knew more
about current events at the time than some educated people might today. It was
expected as common knowledge and things you would talk about. These days,
sport is still the key cross-section.

And I'm pretty sure that football transcends class in the UK these days (I
know to be at least a little interested in Sunderland and NUFC games due to
moving here, just as every Kiwi worth their salt knows at least a little about
rugby).

------
jvvw
This may be different in the US but in the UK, I would say that small talk
about sports, especially football, is much more common among men than women
and I was surprised that the article didn't mention this. I've spent a lot of
time in female company the last few years and sport is very rarely mentioned,
whereas working for a tech company as nearly the only woman, I ended up
learning lots about football just to not feel completely left out.

We also have sports such as cricket which are probably a topic of conversation
for the middle classes more than the working classes, but then class division
is something that we've had centuries to refine!

~~~
pivo
I'm in the US and not a sports fan and I regularly find myself in groups where
the topic of conversation is sports. It's a little uncomfortable for me
because it's assumed that all men are sports fans in my city (Boston).

My girlfriend recently cultivated an interest in sports so that she could fit
in better with her predominately male colleagues. It seems to have worked for
her. I can't tell for sure how much she actually enjoys it vs. how much she
enjoys watching some play that she knows she'll will be a topic of
conversation at work.

------
mynegation
For a context: I emigrated from Europe to North America as an adult. I used to
watch hockey and football (soccer) growing up and know the rules and mildly
enjoy watching an occasional game. And I can totally relate to the issue of
missing opportunities for smalltalk because of my lack of interest in typical
North American sports: american football and baseball. Not that I cultivated
disinterest, it is just I did not grow up with it and right now getting to
know the rules and intricacies of theses games seems too much of a hassle.

I am thinking of getting to know American Football, more for socializing than
anything. Baseball is probably a lost cause for me.

------
nickbauman
If you're learning about sports to "connect" with people using "small talk",
assert your motivation is elitist anyway. "Working class people" are very
capable of talking about things other than sports. Yet one of the reasons pro
sports is so popular with "working class people" is that thinking about the
issues that really affect them (rationally) is depressing. That thing about
bread and circuses is real. So I deliberately make small talk with people
about things that could actually matter to them, like, where their tax money
is being spent.

(Oh, and since when is a STEM job not working class?)

~~~
civilian
I'm with you. There's a whole world out there, it's not hard to find other
shared interests.

... although it did get awkward when a Lyft driver opened up enough to start
telling me about financial astrology. Fascinating, but awkward.

------
loso
This article is right. A big appeal of sports is the camaraderie. As long as
you don't take it too seriously its just all in fun.

I follow a lot of people in tech on social media (mainly twitter) and while
90% its interesting and insightful when a big sporting event comes around I
want to delete a lot of those people.

It seems as if they get on a podium and decided that everyone watching said
sport is an idiot. It makes them seem condescending. This isn't everyone I
follow in tech but enough to get annoying.

Terms I definitely know I will see Sunday on Twitter are "hand egg", "sports
ball" followed by mocking of people watching the Super Bowl.

------
DanielBMarkham
Kudos to this author for making an effort at establishing common ground for
small talk. Watching the culture change over the past several decades, I worry
that there are less and less points of common interest in American society.

Having said that, I don't like watching professional sports. I don't like
watching games; I'd rather play them myself. I don't like supporting huge
monopolies of multi-millionaires playing other multi-millionaires while
ruining their bodies. It's just not my value system.

I watch 1 or 2 footballs games a year, usually the Superbowl, and usually for
the same reason this author decided to become a fan.

------
misiti3780
As someone who doesn't watch sports - hasn't fantasy football basically ruined
football?

1) No one has team allegiance anymore, it is now player allegiance 2) People
waste more time watching football to cover their entire team.

The NFL shoves so many shitty ads in your face it's painful to even sit there
and pretend to care. I have trouble understanding why everyone watches games
in real-time. Sign off twitter/facebook/whatever so you do not get updates,
record the game, and fast-forward through every horrible ad/time-out/whatever
else you have to sit through

I know this isnt going to be popular, but I had to say it haha.

~~~
billyvg
I don't think it's ruined football at all. The older fans certainly still have
team allegiances, while fantasy helps new fans get interested in the NFL.

Yeah advertisements suck, but any television programming also face the same
problems. The great thing with watching football is that you're already
conditioned to not pay attention to the game for 30 seconds every 10 seconds.

------
stesch
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

------
Al-Khwarizmi
The article defends that cultivated people's dislike for professional sports
is artificial, and then the author goes on to tell us how he artificially made
himself like professional sports. Quite ironic.

------
strictnein
I'm not a huge sports fan. I go to a couple baseball games a year, but I no
longer watch any of the games on tv. I only watch the Super Bowl for the ads.
The morning radio show I listen to is technically a "sports" show. It's pretty
light on the actual sports and is mostly just stupidity, which I prefer in the
morning (on the way home it's mostly NPR or music).

Anyways, I glean enough sports info from the show to hold conversations with
people who are really into sports. Being able to socialize with all types of
people is a good trait to have.

------
breadbox
I have always assumed that, like most geeks, disinterest in sports was not so
much "cultivated" as it was a kneejerk reaction to the fact that the football
players were the people making my life miserable every fucking day in public
school.

A huge chunk of my disinterest in certain genres of music (e.g. heavy metal)
come from the same wellspring.

Of course high school was many years ago for me and I have moved on with my
life. But until a strong-enough counterforce is applied, football (and Led
Zeppelin) will continue to elicit a vaguely negative response.

------
dap
When people say they don't care about sports, it sounds to me as ludicrous as
if they said they don't care to watch movies or read fiction. On some level,
those are all reasonable choices. But they all involve summarily rejecting an
important medium for the telling of interesting and valuable human stories. In
the field of music, theater, films, literature, and sports, I don't think
sports is really that different from the others in terms of its capacity for
telling valuable stories about human experience.

~~~
tbirdz
As someone who doesn't care about sports, care to watch movies, or read
fiction, you must find me quite ludicrous :)

------
kleer001
I dislike sports because it's watching as opposed to doing.

------
kolbe
I've found myself in a much different position WRT sports: I can't talk about
it and not be a completely out-of-touch nerd. And it actually is a problem.
People do like talking about sports, but you'd be surprised at how few
_really_ care about sports. When I like something I get into it: Bayesian
systems, predictive analytics, disregarding common assumptions. Most people
just don't want to talk about sports in that way.

------
murbard2
The article is correct that one should not cultivate a disinterest in sports
and talk about the "working class struggle". If you're going to be an elitist,
do it right.

Spectator sports, rooting for a team, appeal to the most basic and stupid
tribal instincts. This is why we end up with crappy policies, this is what we
can't have nice thing.

So yes, it's fine to despise it, and to look down on people who make it an
important part of their life.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
If you think sports are the reason we have stupid policies then I think
something _is_ stupid and it's not sports. These supposed intellectuals on
HackerNews are split between socialism and anarcho-capitalism so it can be
hard to really say which of these policies are objectively stupid let alone
blame sports of all things for them.

~~~
murbard2
No, tribalism is the reason we have both sports and stupid policies. The hope
is that by condemning sports one can make a more general point about
tribalism.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Extraordinary claims. It is fashionable for hipsters to income their god as an
explanation for all that is wrong "tribalism". Is any evidence required?
Honestly I think the idea thAr sports is tribalism is a cop out for the
intellectual lazy. You have to think at a higher intellectual than to stupid
policies come from sports. As I pointed out, the alleged intellectuals on HN
can't agree between socialism and anarcho-capitalism so I think "stupid
policy" is a bit loaded. What policy and what was its path of origination, I
guess you would say sports every time with a lot if hand waving. :)

~~~
murbard2
I give you the Nika Riots, to begin with

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Well that's just the sorriest thing you could have responded with. Finding
riots relating to sporting even over a millennium ago, or even a few riots
period, is hardly very interesting or enough to indict sports with the cause
of all of our political problems.

~~~
murbard2
1) I said no such thing. I said tribalism causes both bad politics and
interest for sports.

2) Did you even bother reading about the Nika riots? It shows the deep
connection there is between arbitrary tribal affiliations, sports, and
politics.

------
snarfy
I wouldn't have a problem with professional sports if they weren't subsidized
by the rest of society. Why does 80% of my cable bill go to pay for ESPN and
ESPN2? Why are my tax dollars paying for a stadium who's profits go to the
private owners? Why do I get a discount at the grocery store for wearing a
football jersey? Professional sports would be nowhere the size they are today
without the subsidies.

------
blhack
This is really an interesting thing to see.

I live in Phoenix, AZ. Which is where the superbowl is taking place. There are
literally ads for it EVERYWHERE.

And yet I still meet people who aren't just ignorant of what is going on[1],
but seemingly _proud_ of their ignorance.

[1]Of course some people might just not know what is going on, or assume it's
just another big sporting event and not really recognize that this one is
especially significant.

------
abalone
Really cool to see Michael Albert mentioned on HN. He runs a great site called
ZNet, a portal to really good political analysis from what you might call the
"left libertarian" perspective. For example Noam Chomsky is a regular
contributor, just to give you an idea.

The design's a little dated and they're always looking for technical help.

[https://zcomm.org/](https://zcomm.org/)

------
boyaka
Reading this discussion feels like just as much a waste of time as following
sports. I think it's hard and pointless to make any conclusions about the
reasons people are stubbornly disinterested in mainstream entertainment.
Whether somebody is truly disinterested or trying to be disinterested because
they believe they are above the lowly peasants...who really cares?

At least the article itself isn't too difficult to get through. From his list,
number 3 is the one that jumped out at me:

"Interest in sports can expand or shrink to fill the time you’re willing to
give it"

I'm skeptical about the "shrink" part. The main problem I have with sports is
how swallowed up some people and society in general can be. There was a recent
discussion on HN about books and how impossible it is to be able to read
everything that's important within your lifetime. Now, I don't even read books
(yet), and I'm certainly not a good role model for spending my time wisely.
But I guess there's no problem with people spending time on whatever makes
them happy, and if the time people put into sports makes them that happy, so
be it. I think it would be better for everybody, however, if we focused more
on improving our lives in the long run. Have some more discipline. On the
other hand, I think it's great to be "open minded". Give everything and
everybody a chance to be worth your attention. It reduces ignorance.

------
arjn
I don't know if its "cultivated" disinterest but I've found my self becoming
less interested in sports as i've grown older. I was never a fan of football
or soccer but the one or two sports I liked in my younger days do not hold my
interest any longer. I just dont find them interesting any more and I don't
really understand how so many people do.

------
robbrown451
Ick. I remember when I was younger trying to enjoy following sports teams, and
caring about who won a game. I really tried. Once I accepted that I just
didn't give a crap about any of it, it doesn't affect me which team wins, and
I don't have to pretend to care, it was like a giant weight lifted off me.

------
siegecraft
Let me just quote Bob Ryan for a moment (a great, old school sportswriter --
another reason to enjoy sports is that there are some great writers in that
field) "Literature, music, art, film, theatre and sport are ALL part of a
fulfilling leisure time life. Each pushes a specific emotional button"

------
jqm
Why stop with professional sports? How about auto racing? Square dancing?
Championship wrestling? Rooster fighting? Would it be elitist to have a
disinterest in those things?

At some point you have to say... this is not something that interests me and I
don't really care for the environment surrounding it.

------
zephl
The level of analysis of sport in many venues is quite interesting. Take Zach
Lowe @grantland on the NBA for instance:
[http://grantland.com/contributors/zach-
lowe/](http://grantland.com/contributors/zach-lowe/)

------
Tycho
I know the type of person who has a 'cultivated lack of interest' in sports.
Thing is, I don't really associate it with the 'educated elite.' Most smart
people I know are actually quite passionate about professional sports.

------
thisjepisje
What if I don't like sports?

------
mathattack
The disdain I have for sports is letting an external event (like a team of
free agents branded by my hometown losing) impact my happiness.

That said, I love going to a baseball game outdoors. It's like a happy hour
that happens to have live action.

------
mavsman
Many comments here are very informative. My takeaway here is that closing
ourselves off from certain topics or ideas entirely will in turn, and to a
certain extent, close us off from a certain subset of people. Just be open
minded.

------
jacquesm
There's a false choice at play here. It's entirely possible _not_ to have a
favorite team in any sport, not to be part of the sport consumption culture
and yet to immensely enjoy active participation in sports.

------
robg
I was trained as a scientist in Pittsburgh. The Steelers taught me far more
about the city and its people than any experiment I ran or article I read.

~~~
zenciadam
How to rape a woman in a public restroom and not get caught?

------
AceJohnny2
I was wondering if Ben was reiterating an old point of his. Nope, this is his
same post from 2012. May be worth changing the title to highlight that.

------
doktrin
What a dumb article. You don't _have_ to like professional sports. There are
other things in life that are worth paying attention to.

------
ryanisnan
Why is this on HN?

~~~
jedsomers
...not sure. could make the argument that HN attracts more 'intellectuals/non-
sports fans', if we're making that classification. And therefore it's a topic
of universal interest here (not that that makes it topical)

worth noting though, that the separation of the two groups [educated/non-
sports] and [sports] is probably related to cost of activities ($basketball <
$computers or tutors) and also related to the simple probability that top x%
intellectuals and top x% athletes aren't likely to overlap. Everyone in-
between is then forced to pick sides/friends...and sports-talk is super
social/accessible.

------
pekk
I don't have to cultivate a disinterest in anything. I just don't care.
There's no cultivation.

------
sharer
the idea that you're either an athlete or a nerd is such a tired old
stereotype. How have we not left this behind? Raise your hand if you got a
1400 on the SAT and also played a sport in high school (for obvious reasons
cross-country doesn't count).

------
ada1981
Historically, as empires near collapse there becomes an obsession with sport,
food and celebrity.

------
dbtc
Sports is a huge business. Don't make that a part of your identity.

------
arprocter
Cheering for Team I Hate Sports is still cheering

------
whatsgood
wow. that's a lot of comments. like. a lot.

------
aaron-lebo
I think professional sports are the closest we have to real-life dramas,
tragedies, or even comedies, and they have profound life lessons.

I am a lifelong Dallas Cowboys fan. I grew up when they were a dynasty in the
90s, and at the time it seemed like going to the Super Bowl is something they
were supposed to do every year. I cried after some tough losses.

Sometimes I get into other local teams when they are doing well, and I've even
tried to be interested in other football teams, but there's no team like the
Cowboys for me. I can't feel the extreme joy nor anger or sadness when
watching other teams. The best I can drum up is a "that's nice". It is
actually easier watching other teams because I feel like I have much less
invested.

I didn't have to cultivate this interest, there is nothing logical about it. I
realize this. Realizing this random illogical love in my life has helped me to
look at a lot of things differently, like politics and parties. Ignoring those
indirect effects (always realize when you are a homer about something) there
is a great advantage if you can reach this level of interest:

Once they stopped being dominant in the 90s, the Cowboys for years have been a
team that look really good on paper, people pick them to win, and then they
disappoint, often times in rage inducing ways. Being slightly younger, naive,
and a homer, I'd always buy in. It didn't take until the last few years that I
got their gimmick and as a passionate fan am sorry to say I didn't watch a
number of games last year and/or turned them off at halftime.

This year, they were picked buy experts to be very mediocre. The first game
seemed to prove this. I turned if off after the 1st quarter as the 49ers were
beating the hell out of them. Same old Cowboys. I couldn't help but to watch
week 2 and a win over the hapless Titans. Then they went down 21-0 in week 3
against the Rams and I turned the TV off. Thankfully, my interest and a friend
goaded me into turning the TV back on to watch them come all the way back and
win. Week after week for the rest of the year they did this: fell behind and
seemed destined for a loss, only to fight back and pull themselves to victory.
And I, conditioned as I was to expect failure, continued to turn the TV off at
moments, only to turn it back on and catch the comeback.

This culminated in their wild card game against Detroit. At one point they
went down 14-0. Same old Cowboys. Click. Then somewhere they found fight in
them and with the benefit of a very questionable call were driving for a
winning touchdown at the end of the game. Now I've seen this before.
Flashbacks to January of 2008 when Jerry Jones put championship game tickets
in the lockers of his players before they played the Giants, a team they had
beaten twice already. But the Giants (who would win the Super Bowl) came to
play, and at the end of the game Tony Romo found himself driving his team down
for an apparent game winning touchdown. That time it wasn't meant to be. He
threw and interception which was one of those plays which thus far has defined
his legacy.

Here he was in the Detroit game in a very similar situation. This time,
though, he pulled it off. When he got knocked down as he threw that winning
touchdown, the crowed erupted, and face down, he slammed his hands on the
ground out of joy. Romo is a passionate guy, but I've never seen him like
this. He knows he is running out of time, and he wants to win. As a long-
suffering fan, the joy was just as great.

The Boys ended up losing in Green Bay the next week, but I've though often
about why I care about football so much and if I should. I like to be in
control of my life. When you love a sports team, you are at the mercy of
ownership, good or bad, players, bad breaks (sometimes literally), referees,
etc. Why put yourself through all that emotion when you can't do anything
about it?

But really, that's life. Because as much as we'd like to think otherwise
(especially the folks here which are smart, hard-working, independent, and
often successful), there are a lot of things you just don't have control over
in life. You can't control whether a competitor does or doesn't come along at
the right time, you can't control whether a drunk driver blindsides you, you
can't control who you meet or run into. Sports is like that, and sometimes it
is good to take a step back, realize you can't control everything, and enjoy
the ride. Sometimes you'll feel rage or sadness, but in that rare instance
when a team, your team, proves everyone wrong, when it rewrites the script,
when it does what it isn't supposed to do and wins, there isn't a feeling like
like it. And when you see athletes who have worked their entire lives to get
to a point and they finally achieve it, it is a rare feeling of empathy and
pride that you can feel for a complete stranger. I saw it with Dirk Nowitzki
when he won a title in 2011, and I hope to see it for Tony Romo one day as
well.

Hell, for people doing startups, or just living, athletes are the perfect
sources of inspiration. The pressures they face, the pride, the struggle, the
doubt, all is so similar. I've personally never been a Kobe Bryant fan, but
last summer I read some articles about his work ethic, determination, and
attitude, and I both respected him and it inspired me to better myself.

Sports are incredibly valuable learning tools, aside from just the avenues
they open up with others. And that really can't be overstated. I see too many
computer-literate people shutting themselves off from others and culture. If
you can't or don't connect with the majority of the population, what makes you
think you can build something which will change the world? Granted, sports is
just one of many avenues to connect with others, but it is a massive one, and
one with lots of benefits.

Finally, if you can't just fall in love with a team, there are other things to
appreciate about sports. In baseball and basketball, I often get more
interested in the process of building teams than watching teams play. There's
magic in watching good GMs outwit everyone else and put together the right
collection of players. There's magic in watching people like Billy Beane apply
a rigorous methodological approach to try to build something (The Oakland As
and Moneyball). If you can't love a team for love of sport, love it from that
kind of logical angle. Maybe you'll end up loving the team for completely
illogical reasons.

I've said enough, maybe too much. I needed to unload those thoughts somewhere.
Hope they help someone.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I think professional sports are the closest we have to real-life dramas,
> tragedies, or even comedies, and they have profound life lessons.

I think anyone who thinks this is spending too much attention on professional
sports and not enough on real life: because there is plenty of actual real-
life drama, tragedy, and comedy; professional sports are not the "closest we
have" to those things (though there is some of all three _in_ professional
sports.)

~~~
aaron-lebo
I could have phrased it better, but my reference to dramas, tragedies, and
comedies was specifically in reference to the theatrical tradition of them
(hence not real-life).

Unlike those, sports are not scripted, they unfold in real time. Sure, other
real-life situations have this, but sports are one of the few stages where
millions or billions watch and share in the same experience.

------
angersock
Part of the reason I don't like watching, say, American football is that I
used to play it in highschool. Once you've actually played the game, watching
other people play is kinda boring. Especially when you see what a comically
capitalized affair the whole thing is.

Also, this part from the article is kind of silly:

 _The machoness and absence of women in the highest levels of most
professional sports bothers me deeply._

Most sports are built rather heavily around the design constraints of the
human body. For what is effectively organized physical conflict, the genetics
favor males heavily.

~~~
dl8
I find it the opposite, and I played in high school too, but since I know the
mechanics of everything it makes it a lot more interesting. For instance most
people only get the gist of the game, whereas for me actually seeing what
formations the offense is running and what coverage scheme the defense is
using on a particular play makes it 100x more interesting than if I didn't
know any of that stuff like the average viewer.

~~~
steve-howard
I've never played the sport beyond a limited-contact flag football league, but
I agree with your sentiment. It takes a lot of time to really get to know the
game, and if you really like the sport for what it is it's suddenly not so bad
to root for a terrible team.

It is kind of a bummer that you rarely get to see all 22 on a broadcast,
because the camera stays fixed on the ball carrier. It can be hard to tell if
a quarterback is having a bad season because he sucks or because none of his
receivers are getting open (though any sports blog will be happy to give you
an opinion).

~~~
TillE
> It is kind of a bummer that you rarely get to see all 22 on a broadcast,
> because the camera stays fixed on the ball carrier.

There's precisely the same problem with soccer. Unless you're already a true
expert, you'll glean almost nothing of the tactics by watching a match on TV.
Go to the stadium and you can finally see things like the positioning of
defenders while their team has possession.

------
a8da6b0c91d
"The heroes of declining nations are always the same—the athlete, the singer
or the actor."

[http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/2010/09/fate-of-
empires-p...](http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/2010/09/fate-of-empires-
part-2.html)

------
brogrammer90
I love sports that are one on one but couldn't care less about teams. When
somebody brings up "the game", I usually respond with "the fight", and then
we'll both race to cut the conversation short.

------
wcummings
The barrier isn't understanding of sports, or even dedicating time to them.
The barrier is that I'm not presented with an interesting narrative. I'm not
invested in anyone winning, so it's not interesting.

------
BurgerEarmuffs
Thank zeus for this article. Sports is a 4 letter word in a lot of social
circles (academia, tech to a decent extent) and it usually just reeks of
pretentiousness. I find myself having to be unusually careful not to bring up
sports when talking to anyone in tech I don't know well, whereas I rarely have
that issue outside of it.

Congratulations, you dismissed the entirety of American football as "roid rage
violence". You also have an encyclopedic knowledge of internet memes, so I'm
not sure I really trust your judgement vis a vis what qualifies as a
worthwhile endeavor.

> Sports aren't intellectual

> Sports talk is glorified tabloid talk

Go to a sabermetrics conference and prepare to be baffled. Nate Silver got his
start as a baseball writer.

> Sports are overly violent

So is GTA 5. Watching sports doesn't make a person any more violent than
playing video games does. Sports-related violence is semi-frequent and
deplorable, but blaming sports for causing drunken boorish behavior is just
like blaming Doom for Columbine.

Most professional athletes are well aware of what they're getting into these
days [1], so I don't buy arguments about "protecting the athletes" as a reason
to ban sports entirely either (augmenting the rules to decrease injury rates,
sure, absolutely).

> I'm not going to pretend to like something I don't like

That's fine. Just don't be a pretentious asshole about it. I can't even begin
to count the number of times a conversation has navigated to sports one way or
another, and some jackass decides to one-up the group by going on a 5 minute
monologue about how ignorant they are of sports because they're too busy with
"intellectual pursuits".

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JMsWtObHhE#t=30s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JMsWtObHhE#t=30s)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I understand, label nerds as pretentious and jackasses, because they dis your
favorite subject. Welcome to the nerd club. You think its tiresome having
somebody try to make you look stupid for liking that stuff? Imagine living it,
from the age of 12 through 25. Its fucking exhausting. So give techies a break
already.

~~~
BurgerEarmuffs
"This happened to me growing up so now I get to do it to you"?

What a wonderful message for the children.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
How about, you've done it all your life, so your whining when it happens to
you comes off as hypocritical? What a wonderful message...

~~~
BurgerEarmuffs
> you've done it all your life

Me personally? When did I do it?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
SOrry, that should have been in quotes.

