
Career advice I wish I’d been given when I was young - robertwiblin
https://80000hours.org/2019/04/career-advice-i-wish-id-been-given-when-i-was-young/
======
algorias
Some people seem to be missing the context in which this article was written:
80000 hours is about effective altruism, in the sense of deliberately building
a career that does the most good in the world (whether that be charitable
work, politics, or "earning to give" as a software engineer / banker / etc).
The article itself doesn't explicitly state this unfortunately.

So yeah, the advice is very nuts and bolts, and several of the points don't
make any sense without that context (e.g. picking the low-hanging fruits).
It's assumed that the reader is already highly motivated to have an impactful
altruistic career, and that this motivation is a primary source of self-
fulfillment.

Just pointing this out because there seems to be a bit of confusion in the
comments here.

------
jachee
> Be a pleasant person.

This is the cheat-code for getting everything you'll ever need and most of
what you want out of life. Frankly, I would have made it number one.

~~~
austincheney
I would not make it number one. Being generally pleasant is absolutely
beneficial to yourself and everyone around you, but it is not a replacement
for competence. Faking it with pleasantries is toxic, a form of lying with
misdirection.

~~~
sanderjd
Personally, I prefer working with less competent pleasant people than more
competent unpleasant people. You can find useful stuff to give less competent
people (and help them become more competent over time), but it's hard to avoid
unpleasant people affecting the morale of a whole team.

~~~
barrkel
You can rely on competent people, you can give them a task and forget about
it. That forgives a hell of a lot of abrasiveness. I 100% prefer being able to
rely on someone rather than have to handhold or redo their work myself.

~~~
zmmmmm
People aren't really binary like that ... "competent" or "not competent". It's
all mushy and complicated. Some of the most competent people I manage at some
kinds of tasks are basically a net loss at other tasks. The pleasant ones are
lot easier to work into diverse tasks and get a "competent result" even if it
is more messy than just tossing them a task an forgetting about it.

~~~
barrkel
I think that's orthogonal to pleasantness. The tasks I have in mind revolve
around coding, since that's my job. If the job extends beyond coding, to
gathering requirements or coordinating a team, I'd be more inclined to agree.
But they don't, for what I'm thinking about.

------
GCA10
I like this list a lot more than Sam Altman's How to be Successful.

Sam does have some excellent pointers about everything from compounding your
impact to having an exploring mindset. But his list feels as if it's written
mostly from the perspective of a racehorse breeder who wants to win the next
Kentucky Derby with one of his beasts. (Doesn't really matter which one. Also
doesn't hugely matter if some of the others collapse during the quest.)

The 80,000-hour author is much more in step with advice that can help people
at almost every decile of achievement.

~~~
hkmurakami
Sama's post as you say is only within three purview of a very narrow industry
and career niche. For those who are knee deep in it, it resonates strongly.

But not everyone is in said industry And applying perfectly good advice for
one industry isn't necessarily appropriate for others.

That's something that I dislike about a lot of advice posts out there -- that
there are few disclaimers about for whom it is written for.

------
Impossible
> Crowdsource your career decisions. I’ve done this for most of the last few
> decades, polling people I trust, and the advice seems generally good in
> hindsight.

I've been trying this recently and I can't get really good advice. Is the
issue that I haven't built up a useful enough network? The advice tends to be
in 1 of 3 categories

1) You're smart, you should just start your own thing and make (b/m)illions.

2) Come work with us, we have a role that kind of fits your skillset and pays
you less.

3) You already make a lot of money and/or are successful in your career just
chill\coast and collect a paycheck.

~~~
jlokier
All of those sound like someone hasn't really listened to you tell your story
and your desires, and taken the time to apply their own deep insights on what
is important to you.

In other words, listening first, finding out what matters to you (not them)
and caring about what you care about.

I don't know many people who will do that, but I know a few(†), so I'm
inclined to think it's that you haven't built up a useful enough network, or
to put it a different way, made enough good and insightful friends.

(†) Most of them not in IT.

1 and 3 also have the clue word "just", that says someone is shrugging off the
enquiry.

Even if you got one of those three responses, it would be a fine in a
conversation, if you had the time with them to explain why the initial
response is mismatched to your goals, and that idea was developed with further
conversation.

------
faitswulff
> Back in my 30s, [about half] of the things on my resumé [...] didn’t pay me
> any money. Those projects sounded fancy and helped me to get good full-time
> jobs later on.

The rest seemed reasonable, but this is not actually doable for a lot of
people who need a regular source of income to live.

~~~
chrisseaton
Most people spend their first few years of adult life in unpaid education
producing things to help them get good full-time jobs later on and most see
that as a reasonable thing to do.

~~~
scroblart
Most people with money.

~~~
linuxasheviller
Most people with _access to_ money

------
qntty
Does anyone else find things like this from sites like 80000 hours really
alienating? Do people really think like this? I don't know anyone who takes
their career so seriously.

~~~
leggomylibro
Some people don't have a choice. It sounds lovely to have anything else in
your life worth taking seriously, but that's not an opportunity that is
available to everybody.

What if you have no community, no chosen family, no friendly acquaintances,
and you know that will never change? If your choices are essentially between
dedication to work and dying of despair in an empty room, what's wrong with
choosing the path that tries to help those who will follow?

~~~
fabricexpert
What if you spent 80000 hours on your mental health instead of this? You do
have a choice

~~~
leggomylibro
If someone spent 80000 hours on their mental health 8 hours a day, they would
be 30 years older having contributed nothing to the world.

~~~
temporary_
I would assume that for most people, "spending time on your mental health" is
not something you do in solitary as a 9-to-5 job. It is more likely to mean
building friendships at work or elsewhere, working towards meaningful goals,
and leaving time to rest your mind and body. If this precludes a 100%
dedication to some startup idea, then that's just something to accept about
onself. Everything else will just lead to nothing but burnout, which kills all
capacity to contribute anyway. Stuff like having a positive influence on the
people you meet can also be a contribution, and there can be personal value
and gratification even outside of "contributions", such as simply learning
something new (maybe even something without economic value). Personally, I
feel like it's highly arguable whether yet another SV-style startup is likely
to result in a net positive contribution to the world anyway. Often, the drive
to optimize everything for productivity seems to stem more from a need to
prove ones worth to oneself and a lottery player's fantasy of riches. I
commend everyone that takes their inspiration from more than those things, in
business or outside.

------
jedberg
> Avoid spending time to earn or save money.

This could be dangerous advice. Sure, if you value your time at $20/hr, maybe
saving a few bucks now doesn't make sense. But no one is paying you $20/hr for
the time your spending doing that. Unless your other option is to work more at
an hourly job instead of bargain hunting, that time is worth $0/hr (plus
whatever you value your sanity at).

But more importantly, when you save it gives you the change to purchase
greater opportunity in the future, which make have a greater than $20/hr value
down the road.

~~~
thorwasdfasdf
Yup. By spending money, every 20$ you spend, uses up 1 hour of your life. If
you want more time back, you need to save money.

------
tony_cannistra
> "Find easy ways you can come across better."

Listen, I know that we live in a world in which _many_ things other than
objective merit matter when it comes to success/relationships/upward mobility.
I realize there's psychology involved, perhaps even evolutionary psychology
(i.e., hard to change).

But I hate this advice. It reeks of elitism, with a nose high in the air.

"Want success? Look good and smile."

What about: "Find easy ways to be open and accepting of what others have to
say, despite your instinct not to listen."

Might be overthinking this one, but this line of thinking is frustrating.

~~~
nxc18
Having recently lost 80+ pounds (~40 to my goal) the transformation in how
people perceive you is remarkable and very noticeable.

Make no mistake, if you're very overweight, or otherwise visibly not taking
care of yourself, you are absolutely losing opportunities. As a fat person, I
know anti-fat bias is bulls hit; I also know it's really, really hard to
control for.

The advice may not apply to you, because past a certain point it does become
elitism.

~~~
rorykoehler
> As a fat person, I know anti-fat bias is bulls hit;

Can you explain why you feel like this? I can definitely see why the opposite
is true (visibly not taking care of yourself means your subconscious is more
powerful than your conscious mind which doesn't breed trust) but find it hard
to see any redeeming qualities in being overweight.

~~~
nxc18
There's nothing good about being overweight.

However, being fat doesn't mean you're stupid or lazy. There's a skinny person
inside every fatass. I lost the weight and I am not any more qualified to do
any job than anyone else, but I know for sure job interviews would go a lot
better. People automatically like a beautiful skinny person more than a fat
person, and that's a huge bias to overcome.

~~~
jayalpha
"However, being fat doesn't mean you're stupid or lazy. "

As a fat person you

a) may not care about conventions.

b) you have little self control

c) you may be impulsive in things

I don't have any friend who is seriously overweight and successful. But I know
a shitload of people the other way around. I just tried recently to do
business with a seriously overweight person and, feel free to blame me, would
never do that again.

So congrats for losing weight.

~~~
nxc18
I really don't think you understand what's involved in an eating disorder or
how hard these attitudes make it to lose weight.

If being fat really is just a personality failure (no self control,
impulsivity), that would imply that fat people shouldn't even try; they're
defective.

There are serious environmental issues involved. For example, the stress of
constantly being perceived as a non-person leads to serious anxiety and, for
at least some fat people, self-hatred. I was never going to be successful
making a change until I learned to love who I was, even when looking in the
mirror.

Fat-shaming attitudes do a lot of harm here. Really it's a behavioral health
issue and should be treated as such, not shamed.

I would also point out the links between obesity and for example poverty.
Coming from a wealthy, successful background (did you have access to a gym
growing up? Did your parents have time to teach you good habits? Could your
family afford healthy nutrition?) can make it hard to empathize with that, but
you don't really understand the problem until you do.

I work with many people every day; I could pick any trait and cherry pick
interactions to come up with all sorts of conclusions; fat people are very
helpful; fat people are controlling; skinny people are fucking assholes;
skinny people are great. You can justify any bias that way ("that black guy I
worked with was terrible; won't do that again"). You might have no fat friends
because you come into every interaction with a fat person prejudiced against
them. You might not know any _successful_ fat people because society doesn't
afford fat people the opportunities it does thin people.

Edit: one more note: even for really motivated fat people trying to make a
change, there's a lot of really bad advice out there. I've been successful in
my transformation because I've ignored a lot of advice; e.g. I weigh myself
every day to create a feedback loop. Doctors hate it. Or look at the
demonization of fat and the promotion of sugar as a health food.

~~~
gspetr
> ("that black guy I worked with was terrible; won't do that again").

Terrible comparison. People from 1950 were just as black as they are now.
However, people from 1950 were nowhere near as overweight as they are now,
even if we control for Flynn effect.

I remember reading a couple of years ago that an average woman today weighs as
much as an average man from 1960, that gave me a pause.

~~~
jayalpha
" ("that black guy I worked with was terrible; won't do that again")."

I once started a business with a black Nigerian partner. In fact, I would not
consider a black guy as partner in business anymore. Been there, done it.

------
therobot24
don't care for this list, primarily because it's focus is that a job is a
stepping stone to something else, never a career (guess the field is the
career here):

> Don’t focus too much on long-term plans. Focus on interesting projects and
> you’ll build a resumé that stands out...

> Be a pleasant person. People want colleagues who seem pleasant and happy and
> good humoured. Washington DC especially operates more on social capital than
> on merit..

> Avoid stuff that could cause irreversible reputational harm...

> Work to solve problems that aren’t popular. Popularity of a problem is
> evidence that it is hard to solve, competition is high, and your individual
> contribution is likely to be small. In contrast, neglected problems often
> have low-hanging solutions that no one has bothered to look for...

> Some jobs in government may be easier to get than you imagine. ...Rather
> than consider a life in government, I suggest trying a 3 to 5 year stint,
> and see what you’re able to contribute.

Why do i see this as a problem? Individually, this is all good advice for the
new engineer. But collectively, building your career in a field by _using_ a
Gov job or some other employ simply as a stepping stone is incredibly
disingenuous. The whole thing stinks of any lack of self-reflection - here
jobs are just what you do to gain a better hold of where you can exist in the
field. It's very similar to chasing fame in LA, but this time it's DC.

~~~
icebraining
Why is it disingenuous? I got a job because I want money to live and do other
stuff, they got one because they want to move up. You seem to be suggesting
one must treat the job as a life goal in itself, but why? Outside of some
cult-like startups, nobody imagines you're spending your time there because
you'd rather be there than anywhere else. There's no deception going on.

~~~
therobot24
It suggests that you find low hanging fruit, don't do anything that will make
waves, and only really think about the short term. That doesn't sound like
you're operating in good faith.

~~~
icebraining
You're confusing a career with the work. I've taken consultancy jobs where I
was only supposed to spend a month there, preparing the foundations for future
projects by internal developers. It wasn't a long-term plan _for my career_ ,
yet I did think long-term for the project and the company. They're two
different things.

Regarding the low-hanging fruit, this again may involve the choice _of_ job
(career decision), rather than the choices you make _in_ the job.
Nevertheless, I'd suggest looking for neglected problems may actually be
beneficial in the job as well, for the employer - too often employees are
jostling to participate in the high-visibility projects, rather than what can
make a real difference in the bottom-line.

As for not making waves, that's simply not there. They're talking about
"irreversible reputational harm" like committing crimes and doing drugs. No
job should require you to do irreversible reputational harm to yourself.

------
slg
The Google Alerts thing is one of the more unique suggestions and one I
haven't heard before. What kind of Google Alert would both be relevant to your
career and be rare enough that it only triggers a result roughly once every 15
years (assuming the numbers from the post are accurate)?

~~~
andersonnnunes
Wild guess: the name of people you consider important plus the location in
which you live/work? Just in case they ever pass by close to you, so you can
try to catch up to them and have a conversation.

------
ken
> Avoid stuff that could have irreversible reputational harm or slow down a
> security clearance.

This sounds a little strange to me, coming from "Anonymous". Do they think
there is advice here which could cause them irreversible career damage?

I suppose it could also simply be the desire to not have half the internet
jump down your throat for a typo, as often happens these days.

~~~
Chlorus
My cynical asshole take is that because most of this advice is so reductive
that it's useless, and they were probably embarrassed to attach a name to such
a low-value clickbait post - I feel very stupid to have clicked it.

For example... > Find the biographies of people whose job you’d like to have
and figure out how they got it. You can effectively reverse engineer their
career path.

If you're famous enough to warrant a biography(and I'm assuming an actual
biography, not just a wiki article) then odds are pretty good you came from a
very privileged background. Not sure how you can reverse-engineer being born
into that.

~~~
ACow_Adonis
As an analyst who's read through various biographies and the resumes of people
in high power positions, you've generally already lost out if you can't list
on yours (subtly or not so subtly): "have rich, educated, well connected
parents, and use those connections to land your first few jobs or
investments".

I suppose there's some marginal value in learning that you should talk the
talk and walk the walk to better fit into that culture (and that will open up
some opportunities for you), but merit is not how 90%+ of the world works...

~~~
czbond
I quite disagree. It's not the "position" these give you, but the mind set.
The mind set is what differentiates highly successful. I know quite a lot of
people who are multi-millionares, don't have to work - and came from very
middle class positions. I once met a billionaire who said "Anyone can be
homeless, or rich beyond their dreams. It's their mindset, actions, and
opportunities that they seize to set themselves apart. Do what everyone else
does, to end up no better"

~~~
cocochanel
The "mindset" you're talking about is parent's second part of the sentence,
"...and use those connections to land your first few jobs or investments."

~~~
czbond
I mean - that does happen. I personally know of enough middle class kids for
whom none of that is true. They just worked incredibly hard, and didn't give
up when people normally do, including not being paid for many years while
living at home with a family. Sometimes what people attribute to connections
or privelege, is a lot of behind the scenes sacrifice, and fortitude, and
patience.

------
mnm1
> Avoid spending time to earn or save money. I now see time as my most
> valuable resource, and I’m willing to spend money to save time. I pay for
> ridesharing so that I can work during transit, I frequently buy meals so
> that I can save time spent cooking, I pay higher rent to have a shorter
> commute, and I don’t spend time searching for bargains.

This is stupid. If you're an engineer in the Bay area making good but not
FAANG money, this can easily lead you to save absolutely nothing and have
nothing to show for years of your life. If you live elsewhere, it's a bit
easier, but eating out all the time and spending money when you could do the
work yourself, including looking for bargains is going to limit the amount of
savings you have significantly.

Let's face it, time is NOT money. That's fucking absurd. No one works around
the clock. It's impossible. Even the people that pretend to are not actually
efficient or effective. They're just wasting most of that time. Especially in
something like software engineering. Time is not fucking money. That's just a
dumb saying. The only time this advice might apply is if you're making
millions easily and you don't need to budget. Time is still not money and it
won't make your pretend work worth anything, but at that point you can afford
it. For 99.999% of people, this is just terrible advice. I say this from
experience having spent years working in the bay area as a software engineer
and then leaving in debt. And that was years ago when rent/prices weren't so
high. Stupid advice.

------
Wump
A bit of meta-advice: don’t take advice from people that don’t have any
context on you, don’t align with your values and priorities, or may have
misaligned incentives.

~~~
jklm
Aren't you in bucket 1 here? :)

~~~
seppin
Don't trust anyone, especially me.

------
jingw222
_Find the biographies of people whose job you’d like to have, and figure out
how they got there. You can effectively reverse engineer their career path._

I highly doubt that one.

------
d_burfoot
>> 16\. Some jobs in government may be easier to get than you imagine.

I will add to this my observation from reading Michael Lewis' book The Fifth
Risk: if you can tolerate the bureaucracy, it's often possible to get to work
on hugely impactful and highly-resourced projects early in your career by
going into government.

[https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Risk-Michael-
Lewis/dp/132400264...](https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Risk-Michael-
Lewis/dp/1324002646)

------
kreek
> I still read a lot about technology, but at the margin I probably get more
> value from reading histories of institutional disasters and near-disasters,
> and the biographies of people who helped avoid some of those disasters.

Anyone know of a reading list or a website that collects 'institutional
disasters and near-disasters'? e.g. stuff like the recent Accenture/Hertz
article, breaking then saving healthcare.gov etc.

~~~
jpindar
The Risks Digest
[https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/](https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/)

------
aj7
“there might be no more cost-effective self-improvement investment than
enrolling in Toastmasters and buying a gym membership”

Horrible advice. Do not do.

------
leetcrew
> I’m also pretty sceptical of ‘earning-to-give’ careers. That’s because it’s
> very unlikely that you can earn more money than you would have been able to
> direct in a funding organisation — there’s a lot more competition to become
> a billionaire than there is to become a leader or grantmaker at a foundation
> or important government agency.

I'm sure this is literally true, but I'm not sure what I think about it. when
you're directing large amounts of money at a nonprofit, for the most part you
are just allocating money that has already been donated; you are choosing
between charitable causes, but perhaps not advancing the "production frontier"
that much unless you are really good at spending efficiently or fundraising.
but if you accumulate wealth of your own and donating it, you are actually
increasing the amount of money that can be spent on problems. might it not be
better to add $1 million to the pool than to decide how $10 million gets
allocated?

------
codingdave
This advice makes sense... only if you are already fortunate enough that
choosing to take unpaid work, buying all your meals out, etc. is a reasonable
choice that doesn't impact your personal finances.

For the rest of us, though, we need to get there first. The best advice I have
for younger people to help them get there is not to optimize your earnings,
but instead to minimize your personal burn rate. It is nice to have enough
money for nice homes and other things. It is even nicer to know that if your
income went away, you can still live on a low-paying job is you absolutely had
to. And it is wonderful to be able to take any job you want, with a high
salary being a nice-to-have bonus, not a requirement due to choices you made
in where and how to live.

------
sunstone
One piece of advice almost never given is that some people just should not
work for a boss. It's hard to know when you're that person because you can be
smart and engaging and still qualify.

~~~
stonecharioteer
What do you mean? As in some people aren't meant to work under others? Or that
you shouldnt work somewhere just because you like your boss?

~~~
sunstone
I mean some people should not work under others. It's not that they are bad
people it's just that they are not talented subordinates.

------
agsamek
> Work to solve problems that aren’t popular. Popularity of a problem is
> evidence that it is hard to solve, competition is high, and your individual
> contribution is likely to be small.

I think this is a relevant advice for us - wannabe millionaires. Or at least
for me. Do not be a copycat. Look deeper for a good enough problems. Don't
focus on what is hot.

It may not be an advise to surely become the next billionaire, but millionaire
may be fine.

------
anotheryou
I'm 30. Am I still young enough? (I guess the answer is: for some things, not
for others and never stop making progress)

P.S.: Anyone looking for a (senior) IT product manager and working on
something slightly altruistic, scientific and interesting?

Preferred topics: News, News Aggregation, Knowledge Management, anything from
Data over NLP to Deep Learning (ethically though please), generally Scientific
Topics.

~~~
badpun
There’s a queue of probably a million other bored/jaded software people, who
would like a job like that.

~~~
anotheryou
I know, but I better keep trying, right? There is also quite a range between
working for a bank and writing the next wikipedia.

Anything more than just CRUD and with a business model including real value
for the customer is already OK (as opposed to some buggy subscription trap
selling dreams that will go bust).

------
ThomPete
Here is the thing.

You probably got that advice when you were young, but you wouldn't listen to
it even if it was being served by someone you respected because you didn't
understand it because you hadn't lived through the things that would make you
appreciate that kind of advice.

A muchh better approach is to go make mistakes and you will learn what you
needed to learn to get through life.

------
graycat
I'll give an answer:

The most important thing in life is family.

For family and more, the most important raw material is financial security.

In the US, the main path to financial security is to start, own, and run a
successful business.

In the US, for nearly all the businesses, the most important _Buffett moat_
and, thus, protection, is a _geographical barrier to entry_ \-- for the
business you are in, it is a big advantage to have no competition more than
100 miles away so that if do well in a radius of 100 miles will likely do
well. Next, pick a business where you have lots of customers, not just a few
really important ones.

This owning a business is important: It can be just super tough even to buy a
house when working for someone else. Commonly they just don't have to pay that
much.

Beware the usual, _mainstream_ media: They are at best smelly bait for the ad
hook and otherwise propaganda for special interests. They are NOT serious
sources of valuable information.

DO exploit compound interest, in an index stock fund, real estate, etc.

Unless are already wealthy, avoid restaurants and eat at home. Restaurant food
is MUCH more expensive, and the cost really adds up. Eating at home is MUCH
cheaper. E.g., I have developed a recipe for a pizza for one meal for one --
ready to eat at anytime within 20 minutes with 10 of those just waiting on the
cooking. Cost per pizza $0.40 to $1.00 depending on the toppings. Cost of the
flour, $0.09. It's better, cheaper, and faster than frozen, carry-out, or
delivery. Do much the same for 6-12 dishes, and call that mostly ENOUGH. The
$1 version is better than $10-20 in restaurants. The extra $9-19 really adds
up -- put that in a piggy bank and then in an index fund for 30 years and will
really have something. I wish I'd known that.

These days often can get buy wearing blue jeans. Do that. They were and are
made of canvas originally designed as cloth for sails for sailing ships --
DARNED tough. Don't need the expensive, famous, fancy brands. Similarly for
shoes -- boating shoes are good because they are still good in rain and light
snow.

For education, learn enough so that you can learn more as needed and how to
filter the good stuff from the 99% which is junk, even in the best academics.

What to learn for your business? Mostly have to learn that year by year or
even month by month to RESPOND to what the MARKET wants. Master's and Ph.D.
degrees (I have both, in the STEM fields, from one of the world's best
research universities) can help a little but, except in rare cases, do not
replace the learning in response to short term market opportunities.

Make friends, associates, acquaintances whenever and however you can, just
casual and even superficial can be much better than nothing.

Don't waste time, e.g., don't watch TV.

Learn about human psychology, e.g., as in common psychological counseling.
Hopefully you don't need the counseling, but you DO need to know what it is
about the maybe 50% of other people who DO need such counseling. E.g., you
need to know about emotions quite generally and also anxieties, obsessions,
libido, duplicity, manipulations, deceptions, etc. The best single source I
found on human psychology is E. Fromm, _The Art of Loving_ , but alone it is
not enough.

Learn about organizational behavior. Learn about management and, in
particular, borrow some points from the US military.

Know how politics works, and, when you need to, play the game.

Learn about law -- mostly try to avoid it since there mostly only the lawyers
make money.

If you have any hope or intention of getting some financial security, then
before getting married have a good pre-nup. To s LOT of people, from whatever
in their personalities or backgrounds, the meaning of _love_ is not very
strong and, even if it is, usually can blow away, _Gone with the Wind_ , at
anytime in about three years. Just accept that in that famous Norman Rockwell
painting of Thanksgiving, nearly everyone at the table is acting.

You have to be the CEO and COB of your own life; a good co-CEO would be
TERRIFIC but in practice is asking for a LOT -- without some really good
evidence, don't bet much on a good co-CEO relationship lasting. Here are some
things that have a good shot at lasting longer than a good co-CEO relationship
-- a leather belt, a wooden chair, Casio wrist watch, a bedroom chest of
drawers, a good pair of boat shoes, a bottle of red wine from _Corton_ in
France, a piano, a violin, a collection of stemmed wine glasses in the
kitchen, nearly any new car, a cast iron frying pan, even most Teflon frying
pans, a house that initially meets code, a good index fund account.

From Fromm, "Men and women deserve equal respect as persons but are not the
same." Learn about the difference.

~~~
selimthegrim
Speaking of that line by Fromm, many courts are overturning prenups these days
on the grounds of "coercion", lack of information or equal standing. Careful
drafting is required.

------
blfr
_Find easy ways you can come across better._

Surprisingly few hackers wear suits. And it's probably the cheapest universal
social hack around.

~~~
jklm
I'd say this depends on the environment and the audience. My younger self took
many years to realize that wearing too many button-down shirts isn't always a
good thing.

------
dannykwells
I find this website absurd. Is it really just articles by random people which
give high-level advice on how to have a career? Because if so, most likely
there is little coherence between any of these pieces, meaning that people
will really just listen to whichever article they agree with.

Also, lot of this advice in particular, sucks:

"Reverse engineer the paths of famous people" \- too bad these paths often
start very young due to privilege and wealth, and also have huge amounts of
luck involved. The two things you can't really control in this world: how rich
your parents are, and how lucky you are.

"Avoid spending time to earn money" \- what, like compound growth isn't a
thing? I would much, much rather make $20 now than have to make $100, or $500
when I'm 60.

"Work to solve problems that aren't popular" \- his/her advice is, work on an
un-important problem because no one cares about it, so at least you'll make
big contributions. But, ummm, no one will care. This goes common advice, which
is to seek leverage in your role - that is, big effects through small
contributions.

I could go on. This is garbage and just not redeemable.

~~~
robertwiblin
> "I find this website absurd. Is it really just articles by random people
> which give high-level advice on how to have a career? ... This is garbage
> and just not redeemable."

Thanks for your feedback. If you look around you'll see it's almost all
written by a handful of full-time staff - this piece from an anonymous
contributor is almost unique.

Most articles we write at this point are less high-level than this one, though
pages that focus on general advice which is applicable to a wide range of
people naturally attract the most traffic.

~~~
Phlarp
Is there anything about this staff of writers that qualifies them to give
valuable advice to the types of people that frequent hacker news?

~~~
barry-cotter
[https://80000hours.org/about/meet-the-
team/](https://80000hours.org/about/meet-the-team/)

I count three doctorates, a medical doctor, a Yale Law dropout and a Master’s
in Philosophy. More importantly, they actually do research.

~~~
nprateem
Are they giving advice on how to become a doctorate, medical doctor or
dropout?

I know several people with letters before and after their names with
impressive sounding job titles who are pretty clueless about what they
actually want out of life and how to be happy.

------
jimmcslim
Keep a journal would be the bit of advice I'd give.

------
neokantian
> Avoid stuff that could cause irreversible reputational harm, or slow down a
> security clearance ... avoid saying stuff online that you could regret
> later.

Avoid jobs where it matters. A corporate drone cannot say what he wants,
neither online, nor elsewhere, because the HR department could be watching.
Ever since cashing out from my startup, I care even less about what any
culturally-marxist corporate HR department may think about me.

> Reflect seriously on what problem to prioritise solving. I’ve spent a lot of
> time thinking about global health and animal welfare.

No, don't waste your time on problems that you cannot possibly solve by
yourself. Work on stuff in which you can make a difference.

------
teh_klev
As a 52 year old Scottish person who's doing ok('ish), and typically in a
Scottish fashion has no problem being forthright, I don't have a problem
stating that for any normal human being in a professional career....this is
mostly a pile of wank.

I guess my point is, sure it's nice to reflect on your <30 life, but no-one
normal in their late teens and into their 20's needs to apply any of this
bollocks.

Go enjoy your 20's, you never get them back again, they were the best years of
my life and I did very little tech. You're likely never going to be Mark
Zuckerberg or the Google twins (god forbid). If you do come up with a cracking
idea (like the Stripe brothers) then go yourself, but this list is what is
wrong with our industry when it comes to younger folks entering the biz. You
don't need these crutches, you either got it or you don't. But I implore folks
in their 20's to go get some life experience, and then develop a "life
changing" or "disrupting" app.

And you know there's nothing wrong with being an expert mort, with a blog and
now and again being invited to talk at a session on your favourite tech you
got invested in.

Happy to answer questions.

~~~
todd3834
I was heavily involved in the startup scene all through my 20s, now in my 30s
and still loving it. Turns out you can both be involved in tech and startups
in your 20s and have it be the best time in your life. Everyone has different
interests in life and we all have our own paths. I agree, enjoy your 20s, but
you don't have to avoid tech, startups or hard work in order to accomplish
that. Some of my favorite memories from my 20s are in the office late at night
with my co-workers/life long friends trying to change the world. I'm still
very close with many of those people and it doesn't feel like any of that time
was wasted.

~~~
teh_klev
To clarify, I didn't avoid tech. I kept my eye on the game and learned new
stuff and old stuff (Distributed computing, Java - circa '97, CORBA, DCOM -
that was the thing of its time and then XML blah blah blah) but that was on my
time when I felt like doing this.

But I'll never regret prioritising the fun of hooning around on my motorbikes,
camping, bike meetups, beer, smoking a doobie and all the other things....and
I met some seriously wonderful folks in my life during this time, loves and
lovers in my life, and then those that were not and are still amazing friends,
writers, poets, comedians, mechanics who are all still friends (some have
passed away sadly). I learned so many good things from these folks in my
17-20's that influenced my attitude when it comes to working in "IT", and I
hope better things than youngsters these days seem in earnest try to learn
from hucksters such as Zuckerberg unicorns et al.

(Sorry that last sentence is a bit tortured)

[edit] didn't answer todd3834's comment properly.

In the late 80's/early 90's (I was kinda 17-20'ish) I worked as an apprentice
Data General engineer. Basically we resurrected and refurbished old DG mini's
for export to places in South America where an S/130 would be a fairly decent
bit of kit for a local authority already running some older Nova kit. I had a
lot of fun doing that. I learned wire-wrap, component level debug all sorts of
things, I knew the 74 series TTL logic book almost back to front, it was fun
and paid for the beer...but it wasn't hugely serious thing. It was something I
could do despite being a total dunce at school. But I loved bikes and cars and
a bunch of other non-IT things just a bit more back then...[big gap]....and
here I am :)

[edit 2:] I also loved :)

~~~
rorykoehler
A bit of perspective. When you were young growing up in Scotland (if it was
anything like my experience 2 decades later in Ireland) being a bit of a shit
was cool amongst your peers. Playing in bands was cool. Smoking doobies and
getting wasted on Buckfast was cool. I've moved away from the Anglo-sphere
culture as an adult, so my perspective may be a little off, but my observation
is that 90s cool is now very uncool. What's cool today is tech. Having a
startup is the new band for kids.

Honestly I prefer it this way. I think growing up in the destructive cool
environment stunted my personal growth a bit even though it was fun for a
time. Whilst I certainly had fun I do regret not studying harder in maths and
science in school (though I partially blame the teaching methods here). Now
that I'm in my 30s I love studying and applying calculus etc and wish I was
much further down the road with these topics. By most peoples standards I'm
doing quite well for myself however I have some ideas I'd like to execute that
are currently way out of reach due to a knowledge gap. This is hard to close
when also working full time with a family. I would have preferred to have
better (and more relate-able) role models, more optimistic support, better
career guidance and have personally understood and practiced
compartmentalisation better as a teen and 20 something. I think I could have
had both some destructive fun and also had better personal growth.

~~~
teh_klev
> being a bit of a shit was cool amongst your peers.

I'll generously interpret that as maybe "being a bit of a cool lad"...except
to say that no, I wasn't "cool". There was nothing special, hell I couldn't
play a G on any instrument back the, I'm tone deaf). We were just a bunch of
mates, boys and girls and in between, who got on well together, shared our
good times and bad times. There was no showing off and we welcomed anyone who
fancied hanging out.

> I think growing up in the destructive cool environment stunted my personal
> growth a bit

I'd like to clarify that no part of my 20's was "destructive"....other than
the destruction of a motorbike somewhere up Glendevon. I'm not advocating a
destructive lifestyle, I'm advocating don't get locked into work and this type
of advice in your 20's and then suddenly you're 60 and where did life go?

~~~
rorykoehler
> I'm advocating don't get locked into work and this type of advice in your
> 20's and then suddenly you're 60 and where did life go?

Yes I fully agree with this. In Singapore where I'm currently based the
academic focus is so strong that it ruins childhood. It also destroys
creativity which makes people less employable despite their great theoretical
base. There is a fine balance to aim for.

~~~
teh_klev
Just gave you a wee upvote there. I agree. I'm very worried that the Singapore
style of academic focus will infest our western education system - the UK
Tories seem infatuated by it, I'm in agreement with you, it kills childhood.

There's a lot of things I could say about this such as the benefits of the
Nordic style of educating kids, but I now need head to bed.

------
kartan
> Don’t focus too much on long-term plans.

I always have long-term plans. But, I abandon them as soon as I find a better
way to achieve my goals. Goals do not change so often, tho.

> Find good thinkers and cold-call the ones you most admire.

I will change this to read, read a lot. If you are introverted or realise that
this advice does not scale (millions of developers calling the same poor guy)
books are your best option. The advice, teachings, etc. that someone will give
to you personally probably are also part of their writing.

> Crowdsource your career decisions.

It is essential to get good friends that will tell you that you are wrong. And
you need to listen.

> Be a pleasant person.

Always. :)

> Assign a high value to productivity over your whole lifespan

Yes. But, do not worry when you wast time. It happens, it is part of being
human. If you regret each time "wasted" your life is going to be just
regretted. Acknowledge that you did not do what you planned, adjust
realistically.

> Don’t over-optimise things that aren’t your top priority.

Good enough is that "good enough".

> Read a lot and read things that people around you aren’t reading.

Yes. Look for the best book on each category and read those. Then go to a shop
a read anything that gets your attention (Judge the next book you are going to
read by its cover).

> Avoid stuff that could cause irreversible reputational harm, or slow down a
> security clearance.

Be a pleasant person. :)

> Reflect seriously on what problem to prioritise solving.

I do not agree with this one. To try to solve the heat death of the universe
is an interesting thought experiment and abstract thinking is a good skill to
have.

> Work to solve problems that aren’t popular.

I will change this one to solve problems that you care about and/or
understand. There are billions of people on earth; anything you try to do
someone else is already doing or did it in the past. Stop worrying and do what
matters to you.

> Read more history.

Science, history, biology, literature, mathematics, culture, architecture, all
books are your friends.

> Avoid spending time to earn or save money.

If you have the luxury, I saved most of the money I earned when I was young.
That has allowed me to be free to make decisions that I would have not without
money. Now that I have a good job, I prefer to pay than to spend money.

> I’m also pretty sceptical of ‘earning-to-give’ careers.

Do whatever motivates you.

> Find easy ways you can come across better.

Be a pleasant person. :)

> Find the biographies of people whose job you’d like to have, and figure out
> how they got there.

Do not. What worked 40 years ago, may not work nowadays. The realisation is
that any job is achievable if you follow the correct career path. Being a
billionaire is not a job description.

> Some jobs in government may be easier to get than you imagine.

Any job is achievable if you follow the correct career path.

> I think there might be an over-emphasis on ‘personal fit’ in effective
> altruism.

Be realistic but do not abandon too soon.

------
doitLP
Whoever the author is, they are probably from a commonwealth country, based on
their spelling of “prioritise” and “organisation”.

------
skookumchuck
I wish I'd bought more Microsoft/Apple stock.

