
VW’s Former CEO Charged in Germany Over Diesel Rigging - Tomte
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-15/ex-vw-ceo-winterkorn-charged-in-germany-over-diesel-rigging
======
wukerplank
So it wasn't the rogue engineers after all? Colour me surprised!

([https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-
emissions-scandal-a-few-rogue-engineers-are-to-blame-says-vw-chief-
executive-a6687201.html))

~~~
devy
German regulators are ALL IN on cracking down diesel gate once for all. It
hurts the German auto manufacturing reputation big time. And we now know it's
probably an industry wide practice extends beyond VW[1].

[1]: [https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/14/mercedes-diesel-
emission...](https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/14/mercedes-diesel-emissions-
cheating-expands/)

~~~
r00fus
I would hope VW puts into production some of their claimed Year 2020 EV
models, if so, they will have restored my faith in the company.

Are the other car manufacturers going to be held to account as well?

~~~
stiGGG
>I would hope VW puts into production some of their claimed Year 2020 EV
models, if so, they will have restored my faith in the company.

As someone who already owned a couple cars out of the Volkswagen brands,
currently is seeing them still very critical but following their news closely
I am sure they will do. The first ID model will maybe delayed, maybe not
better than a Tesla in many points, but I see VW is going full in to EVs and
this is something that would never happened so fast if there wasn’t this
Dieselgate story. The other german car manufactors are way more conservative
with their transition and VW will push a So this is maybe the happy end of all
this.

~~~
gsnedders
The "requirement" for a fleet average of 95g of CO2/km in the EU is inevitably
pushing many manufacturers to double-down on full EVs, as provided you can
sell enough they can have a dramatic effect on the fleet average. (It's a
requirement insofar as there are fines for being over, but there's no other
consequences in the short-term.)

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lenticular
I'm surprised that managers are actually being held to account in Germany now.
There initially was quite a bit of resistance to doing so; the government
seemed eager to believe the obviously bogus claim that it was just a few rogue
engineers perpetrating this crime.

This cheating literally cost thousands of lives, so I'd say some time in
prison is perfectly fair. Fines are useless because it is not the executives
who pay.

~~~
Tomte
> There initially was quite a bit of resistance to doing so

I don't know why this impression is so widespread. The prosecutor's office
started investigations immediately, there have been quite a few raids in
offices and private homes over all this time, yet, online commenters always
claim that Germany wouldn't prosecute (or would not prosecute managers).

~~~
bluGill
The German government owns 25% of VW. It is reasonable to suggest they
wouldn't want to do a real investigation and bring charges as doing so
directly hurts their best interest. It is even reasonable to suggest that the
immediate investigations would have been called off if the German government
felt they could get away with it, but public pressure has forced this.

Of course reasonable doesn't mean it is the truth. I have no idea what the
truth is, but the fears are reasonable.

~~~
Tomte
Sure, German prosecutors regularly get dissuaded from investigating a crime,
because the government said so.

Oh, and public pressure just made the politicians stop. On the other hand
public pressure can never stop copyright reform because politicians clearly
don't care about the voters.

Maybe you should readjust your mental image of Germany.

~~~
bluGill
Maybe you need to readjust your image of what happens. If it isn't for the
vigilance of the people all of the above can happen. They happen in other
countries. Corruption of those in powers is a constant in the world, Germany
is doing okay now, but it just takes one blink and things can go bad - as they
have in many other countries throughout history.

~~~
StreamBright
Yep, politics is the key contribution to our intellectual dark ages.

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sanguy
As a former owner of 2 TDI dirty diesels that lost money on the resale due to
these issues I personally feel VW has not done enough to make it right with
the customers impacted.

Prior to the two diesel's I had owned 4 other Audi's over 15 years.

I test drove a 3.0L TDI and listened to the "green" propaganda (remember their
across NA clean diesel tour?) and that is what was the decision makers to
purchase.

I then find out the vehicle was not nearly as green as stated; and actually
worse than a gasoline version. As the father of two young kids and someone who
worries about how we treat our planet this was concerning to me. So I
immediately got the "fix" performed when approved. I could not sell the
vehicle while a "fix" was pending.

That fix that VW came up with has dropped heavy city (stop and go) driving
from >24 mpg to under 10! Also 4 mpg on the highway was lost; as well as
making the vehicle drive sluggish and lethargic compared to "dirty days".

My vehicles plummeted from >$30K resale value to being under $15K within 6
months after the "fix" was rolled out. VW paid me $6K in restitution.

Through the entire process VW, who is guilty, was in the power position
dictating what they would and would not to solve the problem. It was not
handled well. They got off very easy.

I now hope the entire management team involved gets significant criminal
charges. It was massive in scope. It impacted our planet negatively. I also
feel they should be banned, personally, from ever being in a position to make
such decisions again.

I for one will never purchase another vehicle from VW/Audi group. They do not
stand behind their products nor look after customers. What they did was a very
serious crime and they can never be trusted again.

~~~
twblalock
I know several people who had diesel VWs and let VW buy them back for almost
the same price they paid for them two years earlier. Why didn't you do that?

VW did a bad thing, but the owners did not get screwed. In fact, the non-
owners got screwed worse because we had to breathe the same fumes as the
owners but we didn't get a free car for two years.

~~~
sgift
It depends on the country they are in. They were not so generous here in
Germany, cause our government still protects VW. Prosecutors have none of it,
but that takes time and so far they don't really feel the heat.

~~~
joecool1029
I would assume it also depends on the emissions and fuel regulations in the
country. The US has always had shitty diesel fuel at the pumps and it wasn't
until around 10 years ago that you ultra-low sulfur diesel was ubiquitous
everywhere. The 500ppm low sulfur diesel would screw up the catalysts. So the
US answer was always to de-tune the vehicles, Germany had better
configurations due to what I assume were higher fuel quality standards and
less stringent emissions. Oh, I found a source confirming my suspicion:
[http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/58733...](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/587331/IPOL_STU\(2016\)587331_EN.pdf)
check page 16 for an overview.

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brudgers
The diesel emissions revelations make me put less faith in the argument,
"There is no way so many people could keep shenanigans so great secret so
long."

~~~
throwawaycanada
The fact we managed to invent, create, and _detonate_ nuclear weapons without
anyone finding out is why I believe secrets can be kept.

~~~
jdsully
There were quite a few scientists feeding information to the USSR, some under
the belief no one nation should have this power. Nuclear weapons weren't that
secret.

~~~
hulahoof
The USSR was still technically an ally when the first were dropped. It would
be interesting if Japan or Germany was in the know (and they also likely were,
just musing)

~~~
jdsully
They were only allies of convenience and everyone knew that. They were allied
to Hitler up until he invaded them.

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Zhenya
Can someone provide some context for:

"a “useless” update of the vehicles’ computer software to help further veil
the scam."

I did not hear about this part of dieselgate.

~~~
selimthegrim
I was leasing one at the time and remember getting the notice to take it in to
the dealership for a voluntary update.

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ChuckMcM
I would hope that their wealth was confiscated. Years in a minimum security
prison is certainly punishment but if you want to strike fear into CEOs around
the world, make an example where you force the convicted CEO to live on only a
couple hundred thousand dollars a year with no savings, trust funds, or other
sources of wealth.

~~~
ClassyJacket
I would LOVE to live on a couple hundred thousand dollars a year.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I know, but if you are used to having millions in the bank and living at that
level, having to do your own shopping? make your own beds? How about using the
same room where you eat dinner to host your cocktail parties? Driving yourself
places, flying coach everywhere. Losing your memberships in the various
athletic clubs and private clubs. When you compare the burn rate (or
expenditures) of someone who goes through a million dollars a year (easy to do
if you're a point one percenter), the things you have to give up to fit that
into a 200K/year budget (call it 130K after taxes) means giving up a lot of
stuff. That is super painful and an excellent punishment.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It's not "super painful" or "an excellent punishment". What you're describing
as privations are unattainable luxuries for the majority of the population,
not only of the World, but of the wealthiest nations too.

The median _gross_ income in the UK is £22k ($29k USD).

You must be incredibly out of touch to perceive something at the level of
"giving up private club membership" to be suitable punishment for such abject
disregard for the environment and public health.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I don't think I'm communicating. _From the perspective of the wealthy_ , those
are quite painful. Not from the perspective of the middle class, and certainly
not from the perspective of someone struggling to get by.

------
codazoda
I recently shopped for a 5 door hatchback. There are VW TDI's all over Utah.
My understanding, from sales people, is that VW bought many of them back,
"fixed" them, and put them back on the used market.

Can anyone give me insight into the fixes they have applied?

If the cars were cheating to defeat IM tests, wouldn't making them not cheat
make them fail (or nearly fail) IM tests? Are these cars likely to fail the
tests as they age?

Did VW actually fix the IM problem instead of using the software to defeat the
tests? If so, it seems like the fix wasn't all that hard and it might have
been easier to fix them than to cheat in the first place.

~~~
andreareina
There's a tradeoff in these (many? most? all?) diesel engines between better
emissions performance and better mileage. The cheat was that the software
would tune the engine for mileage normally, except when it detected that it
was being tested it would tune the engine for lower emissions. The fix is to
lock them into the low-emissions mode.

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nwni
I swear that Automotive Industry has to be one of the dirties. Is there a way
to estimate the damage this practices have done to the Earth?

~~~
pytonslange
..damage to the inhabitants of earth. These are crimes against humanity, done
with the purpose of gaining wealth. The fact that Germany goes after the guys
on top is reassuring, and somehow restores my faith in society. Go EU!

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writepub
This is both good and bad news. Everyone benefits from greater transparency,
and for once, a high ranking official being charged is refreshing.

But it also raises the question of whether a person acting on behalf of a
company is chargeable, as typically, the company is the legal entity that the
law targets. How can individuals be protected from legal failings of a
corporation?

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bitL
I had to think whether this all wasn't just revenge of Piëch family (Porsche
heirs) against Winterkorn who managed to defeat Ferdinand Piëch in an internal
power struggle a few years ago...

~~~
smuemd
This actually crossed my mind too

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jacobush
Not (Wov), but (VW)... (Edit:) Today I learned the stock symbol of Volkswagen.

~~~
88840-8855
He was referring to the stock name.

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OrgNet
No way this would happen in the USA (I guess time will tell if I'm wrong).

~~~
joecool1029
Yeah... about that: [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-
diese...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-diesel-
emissions-investigation-settlement.html)

~~~
OrgNet
I forgot to take into account that it was a foreign company...

