
Ask YC: Any of you use Dvorak? - Xichekolas
I started using a dvorak keyboard about five years ago purely for nerdy fun. I enjoy it personally, but would never try to evangelize it. Anyway, I was just curious if anyone else out there used it and if you knew of any dvorak-friendly editors and such... Emacs is a nightmare in Dvorak...<p>Edit: A follow-up question if you do use dvorak would be: If you actually have a dvorak-in-hardware keyboard, which one?
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jmilton
aoeuidhtns! I've used Dvorak for at least six years now. Love it.

For anyone interested in learning, I found that the best sites were:
<http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/> <http://dvorak.nl/learn.plp> and the program
KP Typing Tutor (great dvorak exercises). interesting comparison tool:
<http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/>

How about the awesomeness of the dvorak home row? 3269 Scrabble words (OSPD)
can be typed on the home row, including nine 15-letter words (such as
tendentiousness) 206 for asdfkhjkl. Longest: halakhahs and haggadahs

_____ Estimated finger travel distance (horizontal) for all of the above text
QWERTY: 15.3m Dvorak: 10.5m

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slackerIII
Yes, I use it and I really think it has helped my wrists. I don't type much
faster than I used to, but it feels much more comfortable. Another good trick
is to swap your ctrl and capslock keys.

I don't have any trouble using vi with dvorak. Navigating using hjkl still
makes sense.

~~~
Xichekolas
Yeah I definitely feel like my wrists move a lot less using Dvorak, so it is
more comfortable for long periods for me at least.

I'll have to try the caplocks/ctrl switching.

~~~
adamdoupe
Steve Yegge's post "Effective Emacs" has instructions for how to do this, plus
some other emacs tips: <http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs>

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BrandonM
DVORAK is remarkably easy to learn, all things considered. I just started
today after checking out jmilton's links, and while the going is a bit slow,
it's not as bad as I expected. I'm not sure yet if it will really be
beneficial, but I figure I'll give it a shot for two reasons:

1\. I like to challenge myself. I'm currently learning to play Guitar Hero
left-handed, and it's been interesting. This is along those same lines, but it
might actually benefit me.

2\. It will be fun to mess with my friends when they try to use my computer.

In my limited usage so far, yes, the typing is slow. It's really frustrating
that I can no longer type as fast as I can think. The hardest thing, however,
seems to be re-learning applications' keyboard shortcuts. If Firefox and GMail
is hard, what's vim going to be like?

(This message was typed using DVORAK.)

~~~
BrandonM
After some more research, I think Colemak (<http://colemak.com/>) is going to
be a better alternative. The bottom row stays the nearly the same, which means
that a lot of the common application shortcut keys remain the same. It's also
based on more modern, computer-assisted research into English word
frequencies. One cool idea it uses is to change Caps Lock to Backspace.

I'm still worried about vim, though. One nice side effect of my planned switch
to Colemak is that I now have a legitimate reason to put off learning Emacs.
After my switch to Colemak is complete, I'll try to tackle SLIME.

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ken
Sure, for about 15 years. I agree that it's more comfortable, not faster.

Coincidentally, this is about the same length of time I've used Emacs. I don't
see what's nightmarish about it. The keys either have English mnemonics
(C-b/C-f = back/forward), or are completely arbitrary (C-v = page-down). Its
keyboard commands are not at all tied to the Sholes layout, like some editors
I could mention.

I think it's less nightmarish than, say, being a native Swedish or Japanese
speaker and trying to figure out what C-b and C-f mean. But then, I've found
that the way keyboard shortcuts are encoded in one's brain differs greatly
between people. Maybe visual learners find hjkl more natural, and auditory
learners find bfpn more natural.

~~~
Hexstream
"The keys either have English mnemonics (C-b/C-f = back/forward), or are
completely arbitrary (C-v = page-down)."

Bad example for a completely arbitrary key... v looks like a down arrow.
Hence, page down.

~~~
ken
Ah, you must be one of those visual-learner types!

~~~
Hexstream
The funny thing is that I always thought (just like you) that C-v was an
arbitrarily assigned key before you mentionned it. I guess we could call this
"contradiction intuition" or something.

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sparkycw
I also use Dvorak, but had to retrain myself on VIM. I originally used QWERTY
to learn VIM, then switched to Dvorak because I totally sucked at touch typing
on QWERTY. That layout never made sense to me, but Dvorak did and now I'm
happy to report I can type along at about 35 WPM. Which to me, is screaming
fast!

What's really odd is now I've been able to touch type on QWERTY too! It takes
a few seconds for the brain to switch modes, but it'll do it. I'm not as fast
as Dvorak, but I can hope on another keyboard and work.

I've used Dvorty Boards in the past, and now use TypeMatrix ZVR-2030 keyboard.
On laptops, I switch using software, and just ignore the keyboard.

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Hexstream
I use Dvorak exclusively. I've started using it right when I started
touchtyping (I'm 21, I started touchtyping something like a year and a half
ago. Previously I was a "fast" hunt-and-pecker, except I didn't really hunt at
all).

I got frustrated with touchtyping Qwerty very quickly because... well, it just
felt dumb when I tried typing "street" or "states". Why should two such common
nouns with common letters be so awfully awkward to type?! And there's the
seemingly random arrangement of keys, which incidentally is ACTUALLY random...

Anyway, I found out about Dvorak, read about it, started using it and never
looked back ever since.

You say you started using a Dvorak keyboard... do you mean a Dvorak keyboard
_layout_?... Typing Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard is not a problem at all. In
fact, I'd say it's beneficial. When I started touchtyping Qwerty, I kept
looking down at the keys out of habit and lack of confidence, and that impeded
my speed and learning. Whereas when I started touchtyping Dvorak, I couldn't
"cheat" by looking at the keys anymore. For the first 2 days, I printed the
Dvorak layout on a sheet of paper that I put beside my keyboard, and I'd refer
to that only when I didn't know a key. After that, I scrapped the paper and
was typing very slow but autonomously. My habit of looking at the keyboard
died a quick death because my keyboard had Qwerty printed on it and thus was
useless!

I don't see why you say Emacs is a nightmare in Dvorak, because the key
combinations are based on mnemonics, not physical key location. Ever tried
Dvorak in vi? Now THAT is a problem.

I bought a TypeMatrix 2030 and with some remappings, it's a charm to use Emacs
with it. In particular, I can press CTRL with my left thumb, so if for example
I have to type C-x C-f (qwerty equivalent: C-b C-y), I don't have to switch
between the right and left CTRL keys, I just press and hold CTRL and then type
x and f. By the way, I bought a Qwerty-labelled version so I wouldn't be
tempted to start looking at the keys again :) If they had a blank version I
would have bought that.

You ask for a Dvorak-friendly editor, but I think you should be looking for a
keyboard-layout- _agnostic_ editor. In my experience, Emacs is one such
editor.

~~~
grimoire
"Previously I was a "fast" hunt-and-pecker, except I didn't really hunt at
all"

So, does that make you a pecker?

\-- sorry, couldn't help myself.

~~~
Hexstream
We learn something new every day... even if it's just a silly slang term ;P

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a-priori
I use Dvorak too... have for about 5 years now, for no reason other than that
I like it better.

I also use Emacs just fine, but then again I learned Emacs after Dvorak, so I
don't really know how much different Emacs is on QWERTY.

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MikeW
I switched to dvorak for a few weeks a few summers ago. Initially typing every
single word was insanely frustrating, and it didn't get much better for me.

I've been using QWERTY for 18 years and I continue to stick with it simply
because it's familiar and I'm surrounded by machines all day every day that
don't allow me to change the keyboard layout. Alternating between keyboard
layouts several times every day is just not worth the frustration for me.

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mightybyte
Yes, I've been using Dvorak exclusively for a year or two. Vim was annoying at
first, but it's really not too bad. Even if you don't remap the keys the new
locations of hjkl make reasonable sense.

My question for you Dvorak users is how easily can you switch back and forth
between it and qwerty? I can do it without much trouble, but I know another
guy who has a very hard time switching. I'm curious what the general trend is.

~~~
nostrademons
I had a tough time initially. I basically lost the ability to type qwerty
without looking at the keys for about 6 months. Then I started gaining it back
on an OS-by-OS basis: I was conditioned so that if I was looking at a Gnome
desktop (school computer labs) I'd type Qwerty, yet on a WinXP desktop I'd
type Dvorak. Then it went to app-by-app: I'd type Dvorak on Word and AIM, but
Qwerty on Eclipse and a few other Linux apps. And then I became fluent in both
keyboard layout and can can basically touch type on either.

Still need to switch into Qwerty for some games, though, because their
keybindings don't make any sense. It's also really annoying on typing tests
that have you type "hjkl" over and over again. vi was never a problem, because
I learned the keybindings on Dvorak first, though I might have trouble if I
sat down at a Qwerty terminal with it.

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Alex3917
I've been using Dvorak for about seven years. I'd recommend using ABCD to
learn:

<http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/>

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mdaconta
I have been using the Dvorak keyboard since around 1995 ... here is a short
guide I right on the switch on an old mac using a dot-matrix printer! :)

On editors, most on Windows and Mac are fine because the keyboard mappings are
switched at the OS level. So, I don't think it's a problem. Sometimes key-
binds in apps are not matched but not often.

I do not use a dvorak-in-hardware keyboard. I just don't look at the keys.

Best wishes,

\- Mike

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yters
I find it alot more comfortable. I can also type a bit faster. After years of
QWERTY, I measured my speed right before I switched and I could hit 78 wpm.
Now, after about 2 years of Dvorak I can hit 90 wpm.

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divia
I use it too, for about 10 years now. I agree with what everyone else is
saying--it may not be faster, but it is definitely more comfortable. I use
emacs, and I've never found the commands to be a problem.

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psb
I've used it for the last 5 years or so. I used to have to sleep with the
wrist braces - I can't be certain that dvorak has made a big difference but it
seems to help

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richardw
I use the "programmer dvorak" layout. Nicer for {} etc etc, initially scary
for numbers but you get used to it. All dvorak sucks for ctrl-c/v/x.

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robmnl
Using it, for two years, with vim. First two weeks were hard.

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kul
i do. felt tingling in wrists so decided to switch in may. PC also uses it. It
wrecked my brain for a while. i use it with the kinesis keyboard.

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daniel-cussen
Hells yeah, switched a few weeks ago. It's awesome.

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tokipin
_Dvorak_ : been using it for a few years. i switched to it cold turkey. one
thing that can screw you up is touching qwerty after switching, something you
don't really need to do. dvorak is implemented as a language and comes
standard in most OS's, so the excuse that "it will be difficult when using
someone else's computer" is a poor one. some people can probably learn to use
both layouts without too much trouble... i'm not one of those people, and i
would advise against trying to use both, as learning dvorak will be much more
difficult

qwerty is simply atrocious. the semicolon key says it all. who the fuck puts a
semicolon key on the home row? i've heard various explanations for the
retarded layout but i think it's just retardation. even the story of how it
was to balance the hammers for typewriters to minimize collision seems
retarded since the manufacturers could have switched around the letters on the
hammers themselves

something that people miss is that dvorak is about comfort, not speed. sure,
someone who is good at typing will probably be substantially faster on dvorak
then on qwerty, but for me at least it's all about comfort. though i do type
quite a bit faster than i did on qwerty

re: Vi, it wasn't hard switching at all. one thing i learned to do was use
'ce' (replace to end of word) rather than 'cw' (replace word) since c and w
are on the same finger in dvorak

specifically i use programmer dvorak <http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/>
which leaves the basic dvorak alphabet unchanged but switches around the
symbols. instead of `1234567890-= the top row is $&[{}(=* )+]!#. the numbers
are shifted

i took things a step further and started using a program called AutoHotkey:
<http://www.autohotkey.com/> i have LAlt + C mapped to Esc, LAlt + H to
Backspace, LAlt + T to Enter, Caps and Enter to Ctrl, and RAlt to Caps. these
are global, not just for Vim

 _Ergonomic Keyboard_ : i use a microsoft ergonomic:
[http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Natural-Ergo-
Keyboard-4000/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Natural-Ergo-
Keyboard-4000/dp/B000A6PPOK/) i'm surprised these aren't much more popular.
it's probably because of patents or something, or people don't realize how
much better they are. they are as much an improvement over regular keyboards
as dvorak is over qwerty. dvorak + ergonomic keyboard will get you FAR in
terms of comfort

i also use a wacom tablet instead of a mouse. i've never had any wrist pain or
anything with this setup. i'm anal about comfort for the same reason i use Vim
rather than a silly IDE. i figure if i'm going to be typing and using a
computer so much, generally hours a day for the rest of my life, then the
tools i use are extremely important and it's worth it to invest in the best
ones

~~~
lvecsey
Supposedly you're not supposed to switch to dvorak too quickly, like within a
48 hour period like I did. It kind of scrambles your brain a bit, and I lost
my ability to qwerty for a moment there. With time I started typing quicker in
both dvorak, and qwerty again.

Can you talk a bit more about using the tablet as a mouse? I have a multi-
monitor set up now and just noticed theres a spot on my desk for a tablet. I
suppose it would have to be put into relative mode, not absolute.

~~~
tokipin
when i used two monitors (my expensive graphics card died T_T) i kept absolute
positioning, which is one of the things i like about tablets. you don't need
to know where the cursor is, you just move the pen where you want the cursor
to be and it's there, so it's more direct than a mouse. it also feels more
'connective' in general. when using scrollbars for example it feels like
you're "grabbing" them rather than just interacting with them. or at least it
does to me

with the wacom software you can map multiple monitors to different sections of
the tablet, so i mapped a large portion of the tablet to my work monitor and a
smaller portion to the second. something like:

    
    
       _______________
      |               |
      |               |
      |               |  <-- monitor 1
      |               |
      |_______________|______
                      |      |  <-- monitor 2
                      |______|
    

actually i don't remember if i used the wacom software to map or if it was
something in the desktop settings. in any case it's possible. and of course,
relative positioning works fine as well

i'm sure everyone is intimately familiar with the wrist pain from mice usage.
it doesn't happen with pens because your wrists aren't contorted like they are
with mice. pens are more flexible since the only thing that matters is where
the point is, not where the whole unit is. the hand/arm/wrist posture when
using a pen is more natural than the posture you have to assume when using a
mouse (notice you have to actually twist your arm thingie to use a mouse)

