
USA must not hunt down whistleblower Edward Snowden - salimmadjd
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/usa-must-not-hunt-down-whistleblower-edward-snowden-2013-06-24
======
pvnick
I am so saddened to hear that the country I pledged allegiance to as a child
is now being accused of human rights abuses by Amnesty International :(

~~~
ngoel36
This is such bullshit. Snowden still committed a crime, he leaked confidential
information belonging to the United States government. An action he knew was
illegal. And this is the _sole_ reason why we revere him and the sacrifice he
made.

The action still holds consequences. When a piece of information is kept
confidential, the US Government makes that initial decision to do so. Just
because it pisses the public off, that is no excuse for anyone to leak
information at will, let alone be pardoned for it.

Don't get me wrong. Snowden is a hero, a far braver man than I might have
been. But he is still a criminal.

~~~
mindcrime
_Just because it pisses the public off, that is no excuse for anyone to leak
information at will, let alone be pardoned for it._

I call bullshit. The government exists to serve the people, not the other way
around. What is "legal" or "illegal" is bigger than just what Congress, the
President or the Supreme Court think. As they say, "An unjust law is no law at
all".[1]

Certainly an arguable point, but it's one I adhere to, and I think a lot of
other HN'ers do as well. As well as a lot of Americans, and, for that matter,
a lot of people period.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex)

~~~
rayiner
They also say, "we are a government of laws, not of men." The government
should enforce, and follow, the laws as they are written, not go by what one
man or another considers to be "just" or "unjust."

And as a practical matter, the majority of Americans think Snowden should be
prosecuted.

~~~
gasull
That's not what this Gallup poll found:

[http://www.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-
gover...](http://www.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-government-
surveillance-programs.aspx)

44% say Snowden did the right thing, 42% say it was wrong.

53% disapprove Government surveillance.

59% say it was right for the newspapers to publish the info.

Also: 31% say he's a patriot, 23% say he's a traitor:

[http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/12/us-usa-security-
po...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/12/us-usa-security-poll-
idUSBRE95B1AF20130612)

~~~
rayiner
A Pew Research poll found that Americans believe Snowden should be prosecuted,
by a substantial margin (54-38):
[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/17/ameri...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/17/americans-
say-snowden-should-be-prosecuted-for-nsa-leaks-in-usa-today-poll/2430583).

~~~
gasull
I would like to know the exact question they were asked. It's easy to induce
people into answering what you want if you use the right wording.

~~~
danielweber
It can both be a good thing as well as something he should have to answer
about in court.

------
thufry
I don't know why people think that "I think Edward Snowden did the right
thing" is incompatible with "Edward Snowden should be prosecuted to the full
extent of the law." If I run a stop sign to the hospital because my child has
a serious injury, I did the right thing (as long as I did it safely), but I
still expect to get a ticket for the violation. The reason that Snowden is
being called a "hero" in some corners is because of the likely penalties for
his actions, penalties that ensure that people don't blog about every piece of
classified information that they find distasteful.

Amnesty International really puts itself in a weird position by using the
words "hunt down"... the US has simply made written requests of countries
under existing treaties, requests which have been ignored by Hong Kong without
immediate consequence. "Hunt down" implies something Seal Team Six-style.

~~~
potatolicious
Because falling on your sword, while noble and makes for great story-telling,
is unnecessary. Requiring whistleblowers to fall on their own swords
discourages whistleblowing, which as a society we've in the past explicitly
spelled out as desirable behavior.

tl;dr: If you punish desirable behavior, desirable behavior won't happen.

~~~
slg
You are making the leap to assume there will be punishment (probably a fair
assumption, but an assumption nonetheless). He isn't yet being forced to fall
on his sword. The US hasn't sentenced him to death or life in prison. The US
is simply trying to bring him back to face his charges.

~~~
mixmax
charges of which he is obviously guilty and which are punishable by decades in
prison or death.

I think it's safe to assume there will be punishment if he is extradicted to
the land of the free.

~~~
runeks
> charges of which he is obviously guilty and which are punishable by decades
> in prison or death.

Could he really be sentenced to death? I'm not familiar with US law on the
subject, so I'm curious. That really sounds scary :\

~~~
potatolicious
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115)

Death is a possibility, depending on what he is charged with, though given the
nature of the case I'd personally doubt the government would pursue it. It is,
however, within the realm of possibility, especially after he revealed the
anti-Chinese hacking information.

------
vpeters25
I bet the first draft of the White House's reply to Amnesty International
reads just like the ones typical banana republic dictatorships use: throwing a
tantrum about "interference with internal affairs", Snowden broke "the law"
and must be deported at once, etc...

It is sad that this is pretty much expected from this government the same way
the ones among us who grew up in Pinochet's Chile or any other dictatorship
could predict from their own government.

~~~
uvdiv
The White House rather unambiguously threw Snowden under the bus:

 _" Mr. Snowden's claim that he is focused on supporting transparency, freedom
of the press and protection of individual rights and democracy is belied by
the protectors he has potentially chosen - China, Russia, Ecuador, as we've
seen [...] His failures to criticize these regimes suggests that his true
motive throughout has been to injure the national security of the United
States, not to advance Internet freedom and free speech."_

[http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/24/us-usa-security-
ob...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/24/us-usa-security-obama-
idUSBRE95N17620130624)

~~~
Amadou
If it's not one thing, it's another. No matter what Snowden did, they would
come up with some excuse to trivialize his disclosures.

This one is particularly egregious because it can be turned right back around
on the US government which also claims to support transparency, freedom of the
press and protection of individual rights and yet it also consorts with
despots and dictators.

~~~
genwin
Let's not forget too that the US toppled 2 democracies and thwarted another.

~~~
adventured
Not to undermine your point at all - as the US is guilty many times over of
doing terrible things in the name of overthrowing governments - but Democracy
!= good. Just because people can vote, doesn't mean they won't vote in evil
leaders. The US elected Nixon, Bush, and Obama, after all.

~~~
Amadou
Electing bad guys (which itself is kind of a ambiguous term - what metrics and
who gets to choose the metrics?) is a risk of democracy.

It's kind of like seedless watermelon - if you want rich, succulent aka "good"
watermelon you have to put up with the occasional seed. If you want a
guarantee of no seeds then you have to accept a watermelon that doesn't taste
anywhere near as "good" \- maybe it is passable but it certainly isn't good.

That's not to say that democracy can't be perverted, just that it can't be
perfect.

------
smegel
I find the media reporting on this incredibly frustrating. So many articles
seem to be blindly making claims along the lines that both China and Russia
have extradition treaties with the US and should be "following the law".

For example: [http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/24/politics/nsa-snowden-
optio...](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/24/politics/nsa-snowden-
options/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

> While it's true that the United States has treaties and agreements with
> Russia and other countries, those agreements aren't always followed

There is no mention here of a US/Russia extradition agreement:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extraditi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties)

And here: [http://www.canberratimes.com.au/world/snowden-affair-
turns-i...](http://www.canberratimes.com.au/world/snowden-affair-turns-into-
cold-war-caper-20130625-2oteo.html)

> It was not clear if he was speaking of China or of Russia, when he added:
> “If we cannot count on them to honour their legal extradition
> responsibilities, then that is a problem.”

Well given that neither Russia or China have extradition treaties with the US,
I would hazard a guess they were referring to Hong Kong.

------
toyg
Makes sense: Snowden is somewhere on the other side of the world, Amnesty have
absolutely no say in his fate, so might as well write up a nice press release
about him, right? Let's hit those front-pages, people!

Meanwhile, a few yards from their lovely London HQ, a certain unsympathetic
Australian is under indefinite house arrest. When his tribulations first
started, Amnesty first stood silent for days, then threw him unceremoniously
under the bus. Because evildoers are always somewhere else, never in your own
backyard, of course.

~~~
scarmig
Amnesty: "Sweden should issue assurance it won’t extradite Assange to USA"

Which is, I believe, is identical to Assange's stance.

[http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/sweden-should-issue-
assurance...](http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/sweden-should-issue-assurance-it-
won-t-extradite-assange-usa-2012-09-27)

~~~
toyg
Note the date: 27 September. It took them 3 months to get their head out of
their arse, and only after they bled supporters. In June and July, their tone
was _very_ different, more akin to what their Swedish branch is still saying:
[http://www.thelocal.se/43510/20120928/](http://www.thelocal.se/43510/20120928/)

EDIT: see for example: [http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/16/human-
rights-watc...](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/16/human-rights-watch-
amnesty-assange-ecuador_n_1789681.html)

~~~
Amadou
Still they deserve credit for coming around. Better that they do that then
stick to a wrong position. Criticize them when they do the wrong thing, but
not when they do the right thing.

------
kghose
I always think of Tom Hank's line in "Catch me if you can": "I can't stop,
it's my job."

------
namank
What's the pledge ritual? Seems like something reinforced via the education
system? Please enlighten those of us outside the US.

~~~
notatoad
Every morning, every child is forced to stand up, place their hand over their
heart, face the flag, and recite the words "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of
the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

~~~
munin
you aren't forced, you have a choice. many choose not to.

~~~
jlgreco
In many schools the only way to opt-out without receiving _significant_ grief
for doing so is to claim a religious exemption to pledging to things. I saw
kids receive perpetually refilling detentions for refusing to say the pledge,
though at the time I found it weird that they would refuse.

------
temp453463343
Honest question: Can someone draw the lines for me from looking at call meta
data to human rights?

Is privacy even a right in the same sense as other human rights? Human rights
are generally about what you CAN do, not about what others (ie.the government)
CAN'T do.

------
imchillyb
Snowden will be hunted down, and murdered by drone.

He will never have the chance to face his accusers. There will never be a
trial. There will be a mostly silent _poof_ in the night, and Mr. Snowden will
become another drone strike statistic.

------
Tycho
This whole thing will make a hell of a movie script.

~~~
rdouble
It seems like a pretty boring movie so far.

~~~
jlgreco
Just get John Grisham to rework it a bit first.

