

How Much Caffeine Is Too Much? - 2510c39011c5
http://online.wsj.com/articles/too-much-coffee-may-result-in-caffeine-intoxication-but-specific-risks-and-benefits-are-still-up-for-debate-1414432501

======
jonpaul
I went to the ER
([https://twitter.com/jprichardson/status/522084579906052096](https://twitter.com/jprichardson/status/522084579906052096))
about 2.5 weeks ago because I didn't get enough sleep and drank way too much
caffeine. My body just collapsed.

From October 5th through October 11th, I actively rejected sleep (2 - 4 hours
of sleep) and took in quantities of caffeine ranging from 1.5 g to 2 g. (A cup
of coffee has approx 100 mg and a strong energy drink has about 250 mg). I was
preparing for launch of my product and subsequent YC application. On Saturday
morning, October 11th, I had massive chest pains and I collapsed. Fortunately,
everything is alright with my heart. Overall though, I felt incredibly stupid
about my actions.

As hackers and entrepreneurs, it's really easy to fall into the trap of your
launch being the most important thing in the world. It's not. You need to be
healthy, as business is a marathon and you'll be running for awhile.

~~~
dghughes
My choice was the regular Rockstar energy drink at my worst I was up to the
large 750ml cans per day, then suddenly I developed back spasms for the first
time in my life I thought it was a kidney stone. I could not straighten up I
was curved to my right as if I was made of stone, the only thing that helped
were strong muscle relaxers.

I stopped for awhile and drank just the normal ("double" is normal) Rockstar.
I felt tingly all over mostly extremities. Now I have a fatty liver I am sure
caused by energy drinks, I haven't had one in at least three years.

Coffee and tea are no comparison to energy drinks even a four or six shot
espresso is mild in comparison. Although I believe espresso has less caffeine
than regular coffee even for equal volumes.

What's odd is I never drank any caffeine until I was about 34 since even a sip
affected me making my heart race from just a sip.

I've now left the stupid energy drink drinkers club!

~~~
jamesli
I suspect there are something else in energy drinks that could have dramatic
effects on one's brain.

I usually drink one or two cups of coffee per day. I could drink more. After
7~8 cups of espresso, my hands start uncontrollably shaking, and I feel a
little agitated. Those are all the symptoms I feel. Energy drinks is a
completely different story. After two cans, I would have a big headache. I
experimented a few times [call me crazy :)]. Every time, the headache came. So
it was not a fluke, and most probably it was not caused by other factors.

------
iamthepieman
My first year in college I had a french press (a kind of coffee maker) and a
tin of breath mints that had caffeine in them. One night, trying to finish a
project, I drank an entire quart of strongly brewed coffee (~500mg)and ate the
caffeinated breath mints like popcorn (30mg each)[0]. I recall walking down
the dormitory hallways with extremely heightened senses. I was hearing
whispers on the other side of closed doors and watching a fly buzz past me in
what seemed like slow motion. I could feel the carpet texture through the
soles of my shoes and time seemed to slow down.

At the time I thought it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life
and vowed to repeat it sometime.

Thinking back I realize I was probably experiencing mild hallucinations and
could have been on the verge of collapse.

edit: Added caffeine estimates.

[0]Can't believe I found this.
[http://www.wegotcoffee.com/mints/zingo.php](http://www.wegotcoffee.com/mints/zingo.php)

~~~
sitkack
I refer to that experience as going "trans-dimensional" while the senses are
heightened the mind/body split seems to be much larger and time is definitely
not monotonic.

Same, 2-3 french press carafe 1/3 to 1/2 full of fresh ground coffee at the
rate of one carafe per hour.

While traveling take caffeine pills to stave off headaches since the coffee
routine as been disrupted.

~~~
otakucode
Caffeine withdrawal is not what causes the headaches from coffee cessation.
It's something else (so far as I know unknown) in coffee that causes that.

~~~
sitkack
my extra strength placebos are doing there job, don't Jones my fix.

------
Jhsto
Though the article does not take into an account the possibility that some may
consume caffeine in powder form. You can find 100 grams, or over 7 times the
lethal dose, for 13 bucks in Amazon [1].

As for who would use caffeine in such form are weightlifters and people
interested in nootropics in general. I follow both communities online and from
time to time I find some people overdosing caffeine by mistaking it to some
other similar looking substance, like creatine or taurine. Though typical
overdose has been about 3 grams, it has been enough to make the consumers
force themselves to puke it out or get into ER.

I havent personally bought caffeine in pure form, but the idea has crossed my
mind few times as these articles have started to pop out. I would not be
surprised if caffeine would sooner or later be banned from being sold online.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/BulkSupplements-Pure-Alanine-Powder-
gr...](http://www.amazon.com/BulkSupplements-Pure-Alanine-Powder-
grams/dp/B00EIO4I5W/ref=sr_1_5?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1414487723&sr=1-5&keywords=caffeine+powder)

EDIT: tried to simplify few sentences

~~~
dijit
I worked for an e-commerce retailer focusing on gifts for a time, during my
stint we came upon a style of breathmint that contained caffiene.

they were pretty potent and they worked, but they had a warning on the side
which said "do not exceed 2 mints in 6 hours"

Some guy had 12 mints at 80mg of caffiene each, promptly had a heart attack-
we never sold the mints.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2453928/John-
Jackson...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2453928/John-Jackson-dies-
caffeine-overdose-energy-mints.html)

~~~
Jhsto
I recall seeing same kind of products in my local grocery store, just a few
years ago. Though after most chains prohibited energy drinks from under 16
year olds, I haven't seen them since.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Yeah, with that (kids) in mind, high-dosage caffeine products shouldn't be
sold over-the-counter like that; caffeine is seen as a harmless recreational
product, but not in those doses.

------
hessenwolf
Apparently, caffeine makes it harder to intake iron.

[http://fscn.cfans.umn.edu/prod/groups/cfans/@pub/@cfans/@fsc...](http://fscn.cfans.umn.edu/prod/groups/cfans/@pub/@cfans/@fscn/@admin/documents/asset/cfans_asset_122645.pdf)

And anaemia, stemming from lack of iron, leads to fatigue and irritability,
which both suck balls for coding.

edit: What did we learn in the article?

1\. 140 cups will kill me.

2\. Up to six cups a day will result in higher or lower mortality, depending
on the study.

3\. A study has shown that caffeine may lead to higher bad cholesterol.

~~~
hypersoar
This article doesn't make it clear, but caffeine isn't the thing in coffee
that raises cholesterol. That's cafestol, and it's captured by paper filters.
So coffee made with a standard auto-dripper, or by pourover, don't have that.

~~~
chestervonwinch
As an avid french press user, I have to shove my head the sand every time I
see this.

~~~
michael_h
Get thee an Aeropress. Cheap, paper filters, 5 second cleanup, silly delicious
output.

The phrase "I can't go back to drip, french press is so smooth" will seem
laughable. :)

~~~
cheald
I just wish that I could make more coffee at a time with it, but I understand
why I can't.

It's astounding how smooth aeropress coffee is, though.

~~~
hypersoar
Compared to french press, any filtered coffee is going to be smooth. I
recommend you look into manual pourover brewers. The Chemex (my daily brewer)
comes in sizes up 50oz.

------
ludicast
In February, I had an aortic dissection. That's a big deal medical emergency
with the kill ratio of a special forces operator.

Symptoms were similar to a heart attack, so it took a while to diagnose (John
Ritter died of it, because they were treating him for a heart attack). In the
ER they kept asking me if I was on coke, viagra, etc. Then someone brought up
coffee.

I remember admitting that I had 6 cups that day, and thinking they'd stop
taking me seriously. When they* finally figured out my medical situation and
told me I needed to have IMMMEDIATE open heart surgery, the first thing I said
was "thank god I'm not a hypochondriac".

Then I worried about my family and work and shit like that. But thanks to
coffee my first worry was they'd think I "a bubblegummer".

* - "they" btw, was an awesome nurse and NOT the 3 doctors who saw me there.

~~~
akrasia
I really doubt a nurse made the diagnosis, the legal issues would be a huge
problem let alone the education and complexity required to make such a
diagnosis. I would know, in 2 years I'll be the single guy on around 1 out of
every 10 nights who would have to make that diagnosis and I work in one of the
top 10 busiest ED's in the country.

~~~
ludicast
What's up doc.

She absolutely did make the diagnosis. She suspected it based on my pedal
pulses, and other things, confirmed it via a CT scan, and got the surgery
scheduled. It was like when the Wolf showed up in Pulp Fiction.

Now the truth is she wasn't a random nurse. She is an NP named Nathania
Francis and she has some feeding monitoring patent and her own startup in the
medical space (this is her bio on her company's staff page:
[http://www.gnftechnologies.com/gnf-
management.php](http://www.gnftechnologies.com/gnf-management.php)). No way I
wasn't googling the person who saved my life.

The surgeon that night, Gustave Pogo, was great too. Turns out everyone in the
NY/LI area knows of him.

But the three doctors who walked in, looked at me, and walked out, they didn't
save my life. And this includes at least one specialist from the cardio-
thoracic unit.

I am/was a fireman with the FDNY (past tense due to this surgery...), so have
encountered a lot of emergency medicine in real life. My own medical training
is limited (I always joke that "I know enough to watch someone die"), but I
can definitely recognize when someone is going through the steps of diagnosing
a problem.

~~~
akrasia

          Interesting, didn't sound like an ordinary nurse. Sorry if I came off somewhat arrogant in my earlier post.
    
          Was she acting as a nurse or NP when she was taking care of you? The radiologist deserves some credit too in my opinion as they are the one to interpret the study. It is easy to include aortic dissection in differential along with other things that could kill you quickly (e.g. MI, pulm embolism, pneumothorax, etc ...) but harder to make the definitive diagnosis. Glad you made it.

~~~
ludicast
>> Sorry if I came off somewhat arrogant in my earlier post.

I only trust arrogant & unapproachable doctors. This parody couldn't be truer:
[http://www.theonion.com/articles/doctor-has-troubling-
amount...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/doctor-has-troubling-amount-of-
available-appointme,36884/)

>> Was she acting as a nurse or NP when she was taking care of you?

Don't know which one, I was focused on myself :). And definitely don't know
other things you talked about (other than MI).

Well before I was scanned, she said suspected dissection based on pulses and
some other monitors. Then the scan confirmed it. My 2 cardiologists (personal
and fd ones) both say I'm lucky she was there.

------
coldcode
Your bodies reaction to coffee is interesting, the receptors for caffeine
apparently expand up to a certain point, once you reach that level additional
caffeine does not good for wakefulness but the side affects continue. It's a
ceiling you cannot go beyond but people often don't recognize it.

------
mhartl
It's strange that the article hints at genetic differences in caffeine
metabolism and sensitivity ("Some people will get edgy from a weak cup of tea.
For others, a double espresso is required to get them into the shower in the
morning.") but doesn't follow through on the implications. For example, my
23andMe results indicate that I'm a "fast caffeine metabolizer", which is
associated with a neutral to slightly lower risk of heart attack due to
caffeine consumption, whereas slow caffeine metabolizers have a higher risk.
In other words, it's clear that the answer to the question "How Much Caffeine
Is Too Much?" is "It depends on your genes."

~~~
thisisdallas
I can see this in myself. I usually have about 48oz of coffee each day.
Obviously less on some days and maybe more on others. On days that I don't
drink coffee, I can't tell a difference in my alertness or energy. Honestly, I
just really really love the taste, and knocking back a cup is a actually a
great stress reliever for me.

Edit: Now that I think about it, my dad is the same way. I've watched him
multiple times drink a cup or two before bed and have no problems sleeping. On
the other hand, my mom can drink a 12oz cup and get a nice boost of energy.

------
benzimmer
If you're not a coffee person: [http://www.caffeineinformer.com/death-by-
caffeine](http://www.caffeineinformer.com/death-by-caffeine)

------
DanBC
The article doesn't talk about aggression. I'd be interested in seeing some
good quality research comparing people's responses to stuff when they're had
caffene vs not.

It's frustrating that the evidence around mental health is so poor. I think
that small amounts of caffeine destroy my sleep hygiene so I avoid it after
midday. But it'd be great to know if a couple of cups of coffee in the morning
was probably good or probably not good.

~~~
Cthulhu_
The only one that can really gague that is yourself - have some coffee in the
morning, check how you feel and how you sleep at night.

~~~
gdubs
Better would be to separate decaf and fully caffeinated grinds into numbered
packages, keep a sleep journal, and then after three weeks see if there were
any meaningful difference. Otherwise the results are going to be heavily
influenced.

------
waylandsmithers
tl;dr: "While clinicians may observe benefits and risks of caffeine intake,
the effects are still being debated in academic circles."

------
karzeem
This may be too Talebian a reaction, but isn't the track record of "take this-
doesn't-occur-in-significant-quanities-in-food chemical and your health will
improve" quite poor? Non-food chemicals are often very useful for acute
interventions (e.g. antibiotics, chemotherapy), but at least in modern times,
they almost always do more harm than good when taken long-term.

(To avoid getting sidetracked by chronic medicines that some people swear by,
I'm directing this point more at non-food drugs that are designed to take
people from normal health to great health rather than from a disease state
back to normal.)

~~~
RankingMember
Googled "Talebian" and came up dry, but yeah. One thing that comes to mind
that's used widely to thicken things like non-dairy milks (Soy/Rice/Almond) or
anything that needs to be thickened/gelled is carrageenan, a seaweed extract
that's been tied in multiple peer-reviewed animal studies to cancer.

~~~
cholmon
Google instead "Nassim Taleb", in particular his ideas surrounding iatrogenics
(harm done by the healer), and "via negativa" as a heuristic for fixing
systemic problems, i.e., removing things (chemicals/drugs) from a system
(human body) to reduce the complexity of interactions and side effects.

See also, [http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/af-
glossary.pdf](http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/af-glossary.pdf)

------
ryno2019
Exercise is an amazing alternative.

I'll never cease to be amazed by how much more alert, focused and productive I
feel when I take time away to get to the gym instead of grabbing another cup
of coffee and keeping at it.

------
snarfy
I remember a couple times I went to DefCon there was a guy with a booth
selling pure caffeine powder in little baggies.

I didn't start drinking coffee until my mid thirties. I can resoundingly say I
slept better and woke up easier without it.

~~~
maxerickson
Sleep patterns do tend to change with age.

I find that caffeine after ~2 P.M. is a lot more disruptive than before. I
drink ~40 fluid ounces of strong drip coffee and don't have any trouble waking
up (or any sort of headache, at least not anything immediate, I definitely
service the habit). If I stick closer to 30 floz, I don't think I get a
headache at all.

------
utnick
in the reddit nootropics forum the other day there was a post from someone who
almost accidently OD'd on caffeine.

Alot of the users there use caffeine powder, and he had his bags of powder
mixed up with his vitamin c powder and almost drank a drink with multiple
grams of caffeine in it. He realized it at the last second and stopped.

moral of the story: caffeine has a fairly low lethal dose and can be dangerous
when using the powdered form

~~~
hobbes78
Even if it's "multiple grams of caffeine", it's still very far from the 14 kg
mentioned in the article... Actually the only way I imagine someone being able
to have such an intake would be to use many, many caffeine pills... Way more
that the number of sleep pills suicidal people use...

------
gimboland
This guy knows: [http://www.tmcm.com/tmcm/](http://www.tmcm.com/tmcm/)

------
ChaoticGood
400 mg = too much

200 mg = too little

------
somberi
Quoting from Pubmed (via nih.gov):

"The present study compared the effects of caffeine on subjective arousal
among introverts and extraverts.... caffeine improved the task performance of
extraverts but overaroused introverts and thus impaired their performance."

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10472512](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10472512)

~~~
jebus989
The second part of your quote (which comes first) was previous research they
were setting out to repeat, instead they conclude with "Results do not support
the hypothesis that caffeine differentially affects extraverts and
introverts".

