
Carthago delenda est - kwikiel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est
======
FabHK
Cato's famous phrase, "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam", is feared
for its grammar, but it is quite expressive and not really that hard. It is a
combination of two constructions: ACI, Accusativus cum infinitivo, which also
exists in English, sort of: I see he swims or I see him swimming (in Latin it
would be "I see him to swim") = I see that he swims. The other thing is the
gerundive, which expresses an obligation. Sounds complicated, but it really
isn't - same thing as English "This is to be done" meaning "This ought to be
done".

Now, in Latin, the ACI construction can be done with many verbs, not only "to
see" ("I see him swimming") but also with "censeo", or "I opine, think" ("I
opine him swimming" \- I think he swims.) Next, throw in a cool "Ceterum" = by
the way, and combine this with the obligation of the gerundive, and we get:

 _Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam_ =

"By the way, I think that Carthago is to be eliminated."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_and_infinitive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_and_infinitive)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive)

~~~
askthereception
Your example using the verb "see" is not quite right, but a genuine ACI does
exist in English: I want him to swim / I expect him to swim.

For another example, in Dutch it happens to work with "see" (zien): "ik zie
hem zwemmen" (I see him [to] swim), it doesn't work with want, and with
expect, "verwachten", you would have to add "to": "Ik verwacht hem te zwemmen"
(I expect him to swim).

~~~
FabHK
Yes, thanks for pointing that out, I was indeed taking the example from German
(where "sehen" works with a genuine ACI like Dutch) and put it in English
without much thought, particularly without realising that other examples do
work in English.

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alasdair_
Also notable for Mark Zuckerberg's use of the phrase repeatedly in emails to
exhort his employees to ensure Google Plus didn't happen. See
[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/how-mark-
zuckerberg-...](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/how-mark-zuckerberg-
led-facebooks-war-to-crush-google-plus)

~~~
dredmorbius
Zuckerberg's efforts were second only to Google's.

------
tomlockwood
It's probably worth noting - and I'm surprised it isn't mentioned in the
article - that almost 100 years after the razing of Carthage, the enmity
between Rome and Carthage is mythologised in Virgil's Aeneid. In that epic
poem, its said that the people of Carthage swore to either destroy or be
destroyed by the "heirs of Aeneas" aka the proto-Romans. This epic revisionism
is not a singular act in history but instead one I feel we must be wary of
even in the present. I see similar narratives forming about bastions of the
"west" constantly assailed by the barbarians just outside the gates.

~~~
FabHK
Where does revisionism enter? The Romans were probably correct that they had
to destroy, or be destroyed by the Carthagens. Quintus Fabius Maximus
Cunctator defeated Hannibal, and who knows what would have happened otherwise.

Of course, history is written by the victors. But what is the connection to
today's narratives? In particular, a narrative today bearing resemblance to
the past does not mean that it's wrong.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
By the time Rome destroyed Carthage, it surely did not have to. Carthage had
already been defeated more than 50 years previously, and had been reduced to
little more than a Roman vassal state. The destruction of Carthage has to be
one of the greatest acts of unnecessary spite in history.

------
lspears
If you haven't checked out the hardcore history podcasts I recommend doing so.
The punic war episodes are particularly good.

~~~
ufo
And while we are in the topic of podcasts, "The History of Rome" by Mike
Duncan is amazing.

~~~
positr0n
Agreed. His second podcast series, "Revolutions", is excellent as well.

I have to admit I struggled a little through the English revolution. The
American revolution was much more interesting. Then the French revolution was
absolutely fascinating.

~~~
Nightshaxx
I listened to the French revolution twice, it was that good.

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davidpaulyoung
It was uttered because the practice Carthage of sacrificing children to Baal
was horrific to Cato...
([https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginian...](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginians-
sacrificed-own-children-study))

~~~
auggierose
The destruction of Carthage probably included the slaughter of many children
...

~~~
EForEndeavour
And the resection of a solid tumour inevitably involves the killing of
perfectly healthy cells.

\- If you do nothing, sacrifice continues indefinitely.

\- If you intervene, you'll likely cause a short-term uptick in deaths of
would-be sacrifices, with the goal of completely ending sacrificial deaths
thereafter.

~~~
TheGoddessInari
If everyone is dead, they can't keep going around killing each other!

------
neferbast
Especially if Dido back-stabs you, and she always does.

Jokes aside, the youtube channel Invicta has some good material on the punic
wars, he uses the game total war to illustrate everything. There are a few
minor mistakes there, and he only covers the first punic war, but still it's
some good material.

------
ken
Not exactly news. Mods, can we get a “150 BCE” on the title?

~~~
komali2
I'm not sure I get it - am I missing some modern relevance?

------
romaaeterna
Plutarch's version, δοκεῖ δέ μοι καὶ Καρχηδόνα μὴ εἶναι is closest to Ceterum
censeo Carthaginem delendam esse.

The biggest difference is that "μὴ εἶναι" isn't quite equivalent to "delendam
esse".

The John Bolton of ancient Rome.

------
afinlayson
I like Cocoapods, but I don't think we should destroy it :p

------
masonic
ROMANES EUNT DOMUS [0]

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8)

------
jhallenworld
"The First Genocide"

[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=2ahUKEwi97pfficXjAhUswlkKHdg5DRIQFjAOegQICBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgsp.yale.edu%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffirst_genocide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1y3gd5ymM6LdZ07JOaxcFV)

------
FabHK
Ok, slightly off-topic, but here goes - a great piece of music:

So, the Romans finally destroyed Carthago (took them a while, Punic war 1, 2,
and 3), with Cato egging them on ("Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam").

(I find it interesting for two reasons: 1. Alternative history - what if
Carthago (Hannibal) had won?? 2. The Roman general who defeated Hannibal,
Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator a) is my namesake :-) and b) won by... doing
not much, just staying away and picking up the pieces (cunctator = "the
delayer, doubter"). "Cunctator" is not as sexy as "Terminator", but he turned
out effective nonetheless.)

But next, so Virgil's Aneid has Aneas visit Carthage, in particular the queen
Dido, and they fall in love, but then he, duty bound, leaves (clandestinely at
night), to found Rome. She, crestfallen, commits suicide (after predicting
eternal strife between Aeneas's people (Rome) and hers (Carthage)).

This was set to music by English composer Purcell in _Dido and Aneas_ , with
the famous piece "Dido's Lament" \- she sings before committing suicide:

When I am laid // am laid in earth, may my wrongs create // No trouble, no
trouble in // in thy breast Remember me, remember me, // but ah! forget my
fate. Remember me, but ah! // forget my fate."

The piece is brilliant - a simple underlying musical structure (Passacaglia -
a constant repeated bass line) with her heart-felt lament. Check out the
versions linked below (YouTube links), by Jeff Buckley or Janet Baker or
Jessye Norman or any other. I mean, this did _not_ happen, and 2500+ years
ago, but still can make you tear up today.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verruco...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verrucosus)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5UAbl1OWY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5UAbl1OWY)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido%27s_Lament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido%27s_Lament)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passacaglia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passacaglia)

