
U.S. To Collect Social Media Data on All Immigrants Entering Country - paradite
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/politics/immigrants-social-media-trump.html
======
kbart
Previous discussion few days ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15337961](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15337961)

~~~
saimiam
The best suggestion I found in this other thread was for every country to
follow strict reciprocity with American visitors to their country. I'd love to
see Larry Page and Mark Zuckerberg's social media profiles get splashed on
some national newspaper's front page because someone sneaked in a camera phone
into the review room.

------
knz
As a permanent resident with a pending citizenship application (who came on
the visa mentioned at the end of this article), I find this incredibly
alarming.

I have nothing to hide, despise terrorism and the fanatics that commit it, and
wish no harm on others with different social, political, or religious views.
But I'm familiar enough with history to know how badly this can end. "Papers
please" had consequences, especially for groups targeted for political
reasons.

Just last night I was browsing Wikipedia articles on various
Presidential/political assassinations after watching an episode of the PBS
Vietnam War documentary that is currently being aired. Earlier this week I
tried to sign up for Snapchat and discovered an active account based out of
Saudi Arabia that someone had set up using my email address (via an unverified
email address I assume - thanks SnapChat). I can't read arabic so have no idea
what was being shared on that platform from "my" account but based upon the
images it looked critical of America.

It's not much of a leap to imagine being accused of various things based upon
your browsing history or social media, especially if actions like this
([http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2017/08/15/543782396/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2017/08/15/543782396/doj-demands-files-on-anti-trump-activists-and-a-web-
hosting-company-resists)) become more common.

The rational part of my brain keeps screaming "This is America, it can't
happen here, especially if you have nothing to hide" but I also find it
difficult to ignore the historical and current warning signs.

~~~
watty
Maybe I'm being contrarian but how is this a big deal? I'd expect the
government to be collecting all public information for its citizens and those
visiting the country - why not? This isn't private info, it's publicly posted
social media information, which is VERY easy to set to private if you wish.

If they were collecting private info or browsing data, sure.

~~~
coldtea
> _Maybe I 'm being contrarian but how is this a big deal?_

Ask a person in Argentina, Chile, Spain, and lots of other places besides.

> _I 'd expect the government to be collecting all public information for its
> citizens and those visiting the country - why not?_

Because their social media lives are not its business -- citizens or not.

~~~
truxus
>Because their social media lives are not its business -- citizens or not.

This is a bit absurd. First Amendment to the Constitution guarantees your
right to publish papers. But now you also want the right to prevent your
publications from being read? The government has had a program collecting a
vast majority of publications for a very long time i.e. the Library of
Congress, so one might say the precedent has already been set.

~~~
vacri
Social media accounts have plenty of _private_ messages going on. The Library
of Congress doesn't store a copy of every citizen's mail.

------
musha68k
As much as I’ve always loved to come to the US and as fascinating as some US
conferences are (e.g. StrangeLoop might be my personal fav) – no international
attendee or speaker can be expected to put up with this ever expanding amount
of bullshit anymore.

If the science community or “our industry” really want to encourage and unlock
the magic of diversity we need new venues for a whole lot of conferences
either in Canada or the EU.

~~~
thinkMOAR
At this point in time i still wonder why people physically move from one part
of the world to another to hear somebody speak. What is wrong with live
streaming? (and record, download and re-play)

~~~
legulere
That’s true for the talks, but there’s a lot going on around the talks.

~~~
thinkMOAR
That might be, and some might run back to the hotel room right after the
seminar/conference is finished. Though primary reason of traveling for a
conference is to hear that person speak at the conference, anything extra
before/after talks that happens is bonus, not primary reason of travel.

~~~
coldtea
> _Though primary reason of traveling for a conference is to hear that person
> speak at the conference, anything extra before /after talks that happens is
> bonus, not primary reason of travel._

Again, for you. I know many types whose primary reason is networking.

------
SerLava
Something to realize here:

If you're between 10 and 60 years old, "I don't use social media" will likely
not really be an answer at the border. Even a barely-used account will not
really be an answer.

They're going to be able to say you're probably just hiding your _real
account._ That could factor into denying you entry into a country.

If this becomes common with many countries, it could become _de facto illegal
to keep social media out of your daily habits._

~~~
bit48
Question is what happens if one really does not use social media, at least
mainstream playforms such as facebook. I'm guessing I'm not the only one
around here with a small social media footprint...

~~~
SerLava
That's what I'm getting at - I don't use public social media and would
probably get denied.

------
CamelCaseName
Not to suggest that this is okay to do to immigrants, (legal ones at that!)
but the next step is clear. If this works well and remains unopposed, the
average citizen will be targeted next.

~~~
Chris2048
A slippery slope, you say?

~~~
coldtea
Some real life slopes are actually slippery, and some metaphorical slopes are
legitimately so as well.

Unless you have some reason to suspect the events at the end of the slope are
too farfetched to actually happen, which I don't see any, this is not a
"slippery slope fallacy", but a run of the mill prediction about an Overton
window opening.

~~~
Chris2048
> a run of the mill prediction

As a prediction it's fine, but the original post said:

> the next step is clear

and

> the average citizen will be targeted next

There was no suggestion that this was just speculation.

------
drderidder
Some of the comments seem a little disjointed from the details. According to
the article, only information that's publicly available online is collected,
and specifically for those _immigrating_ to the US, not tourists, conference
attendees, etc. There are likely a lot of reasons for many people not to want
to travel to the US, but this would probably be low on the list.

~~~
zeep
as long as they only collect information that is publicly accessible and
associated with your real name (because they probably could de-anonimyse a lot
of posts made under pseudonyms/nicknames...)

------
donohoe
Citizens. This rule also applies to US citizens.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Also, if you know/follow/connected-with an immigrant or naturalized citizen on
a social platform, then YOUR data could be covered in this dragnet.

~~~
havetocharge
The expansion of the divide between citizen classes. Welcome to the brave new
world.

------
mattferderer
This is not necessarily a new problem. College students for years have been
warned about employers digging through social media. This led to the rise of
apps like Snapchat & more privacy controls with who you share your social data
with.

I've been asked by public figures & businesses how to help clear their name
after being involved in several negative news stories. My advice has always
been to generate as many positive news stories and website posts as you can so
that your negative ones are buried & hard to find.

I would imagine both of these tactics will continue to increase.

~~~
k-mcgrady
There's a huge difference between an employer doing it and the government
doing it. You can hide your SM for a potential employer. Doing that will make
the government suspicious. You may get a chance to explainer yourself to an
employer. An immigration decision will be made in a black box. You can apply
for another job at a company not run by idiots - choosing to immigrate
somewhere else isn't as straightforward.

------
verytrivial
My tentative, loosely held decision to not enter the US for any reason has
become surprisingly easier to justify as time goes on.

~~~
vidarh
Yes, I used to visit a lot for business, and would love to go back on holiday
too, but at this rate I'm not sure I want to. So far it's mostly been that I
don't really have a compelling reason to visit, and it's just been tipping the
scales in favor of other vacation locations etc., but the more stuff like
this, the less attractive it gets.

It doesn't even need to affect me directly - it just contributes to an overall
impression of not being welcome.

~~~
brentm
The majority of people in the US disagree with everything going on right now
and we welcome everyone. We will right the ship in the next 2-3 years.

~~~
fiblye
Honestly, as an American, I wouldn't be so hopeful. People were 100% sure
things would turn out differently just a year ago, and anyone who said
differently was openly mocked for being delusional. Things are going to get
far worse before they get better. Even then, just thinking a different
president will fix anything is part of the problem.

~~~
brentm
A toxic culture starts from the top. DJT's seeming enjoyment of the driving of
division between parties (and even within his own) is part of the problem. He
is not the only problem and removing him isn't a cure but a hopeful/forward
looking leader (from either party) doing everything he/she can to positive
push the people together would be better for the country.

~~~
fiblye
The problems started long ago. It's all too convenient to in any way imply a
presidential switch will have any effect on it.

------
jameshart
For any Americans thinking 'well, at least this doesn't affect me as a natural
born citizen', you should be aware that one of the most common principles
applied to visa and passport control activity by countries is 'reciprocity'.
That is, countries look at how the US treats their citizens at the American
port of entry, and turn around and apply that same standard to Americans.

So the next time you turn up at the Canadian border and are asked to produce
your facebook account details... this is why.

~~~
Chris2048
Funny how 'reciprocity' doesn't seem to apply to taxes or extradition..

edit:

Taxes; Even in the EU, forms will ask about American tax status, because an
American citizen living abroad must still file taxes. I must provide this
information, despite never having been an American Citizen.

Extradition;
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK%E2%80%93US_extradition_trea...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK%E2%80%93US_extradition_treaty_of_2003)

~~~
iraphael
[citation needed]

------
colanderman
I wonder if we'll see a push to expand the definition of "social media" beyond
Facebook and Twitter to include private group messaging platforms like
SnapChat, Slack, and Hangouts, and forums like Reddit and HN.

------
yardie
If they want to know what's in my social media feed they can just ask. 70% of
it is Happy Birthday well wishes and the rest is making fun of our bonehead in
chief.

I expect FB/Twitter will have a sudden growth surge of "new" users as folks
make a SFW and NSFW profile. A lot of my military and government employee
friends are creating twin personas, or just dropping social media completely.

------
makecheck
Among the many illegitimate reasons to demand online accounts, there are
definitely 100%-fake profiles. I have seen this with friends: something that
IS their picture and their “name” (though the scammer probably added spaces or
something). Great. Just imagine, someone at the airport first asking leading
questions like “is this you?”, then demanding that you log in; and since you
won’t be able to, now what? Then suppose they have “evidence” of what “you”
have been doing with this account.

Even _important_ digital information isn’t being secured correctly (Equifax)
so this is not exactly the best time to be attaching new importance to stuff
that is easier to emulate or steal.

It also can’t come at a worse time from a “social media exhaustion” point of
view. I haven’t used stuff like Facebook in months. I’m _further_ from this
crap than I was even last year, and the last thing I want is to have to dip
back into the cesspool to appease the authorities.

------
brentm
It's hard to see how this will do anything besides generate a ton of false
positives.

~~~
saimiam
Or null results. What's to stop anyone from creating a secret profile and
using a VPN (to avoid linking the terrorist persona's IP address with their
main persona's IP address) just to talk to fellow terrorists?

Terrorists could even force every recruit to use a common, shared profile or
just avoid popular social media altogether when needing to discuss terrorist
acts.

~~~
matt4077
Yeah, and if ISIS were running an ISO 9001 certified terror plot, that's
exactly how they'd do it.

But in the real world, a terrorist doesn't just spawn at the other end of
de_dust. They know others in these social circles long before they're
radicalised.

The current crop of terrorists also happens to be a few landings short of a
pilot's license, so to speak: the "Four Lions factor" (named for the movie)
refers to the hypothesis that the aggressors' incompetence has been a major
factor foiling their plans. How are they going to use a VPN if they frequently
blow themselves up because they get confused by time zones?

Not that I consider this policy good in any possible way. It's one more
example of that country softly proclaiming "all men are created equal / with
unalienable rights", then turning around and making visitors feel like
Somalian hostages. But if I were tasked with unearthing terrorist networks,
I'd definitely get entirely to excited at the prospect of getting access to
the Facebook graph.

~~~
brentm
There are threats in the world but picking the needle out of the haystack is
very difficult and my biggest concern is how data is interpreted. If you were
attempting to enter the US, migrating from Turkey and I determined that 3
people within your social graph, one direct connection 2 secondary are known
terrorist does that mean you are a terrorist based on no other information?
It's really hard without direct evidence and we're playing with peoples lives.
The vast majority of people are no threat and will be productive members of
society.

I am afraid the guilt until proven innocent mindset in regards to immigrants
is increasing in parts of the US. I wish everyone would settle down and relax
for a minute but it seems like thing will only continue to increase as we
begin to enter a new election year and then start what will be a very heated
Presidential campaign.

------
epc
To every US Citizen who replies “what's the big deal?” keep in mind most
countries maintain a sort of reciprocity, whatever the US government does to
their citizens to enter, they may, out of pique or their own laws, do to
Americans entering their country.

Given the execrable ability of the US government to keep even its own top-
secret confidential information secure, I have absolutely no faith that this
information will be securely maintained, nor that it will be solely used to
profile visitors solely at the “border”.

------
ibejoeb
I can wait to "declare" my "Hacker News" account at a border. Surely there
will be no misunderstanding.

All of that aside, there's nothing particularly surprising or even notable.
PRISM has been operational for, what, 10 years? This is pretty tame in
comparison.

This is a more of a disclosure test. They already know what you do on social
media. Now you just have to tell them explicitly, because if you leave
something out, you'll be denied entry.

------
mad_tortoise
Guess I'm never moving to the US then.

------
Overtonwindow
Which will probably lead to a massive uptick in the number of fake, or ghost
profiles on social media. Before entering the U.S., people will create fake
social media profiles that are sanitized, and make them appear as God fearing,
peaceful individuals. Then some company will get the bright idea of doing this
for them, resulting in an utter waste of U.S. time, and resources.

------
rdtsc
I see a new market opening - creation of US favorable social media profiles as
a service. UFSMPaaS, just rolls of the tongue, I know. Pay a company and they
will populate your social accounts with "I love the USA!" type phrases and
media. They do that for a year before someone tries to immigrate.

Or even worse. Don't like someone, send a public social media messaged
directed at them with something like "Yeah, I got your plans. Already bought
the pressure cooker and ball bearings". Watch them being turned away at the
border and ruining their vacation.

When those in power act irrationally there will always be a new opportunity
for someone to take advantage and abuse that.

Also I am not sure if it is good that I never signed up for Facebook and
Twitter or bad because now I'll be flagged - "Got nothing on this weirdo, only
some computer programming nonsense. Probably good to keep an eye on him".

~~~
shubb
Don't be too positive though - if the TSA think you really love the USA then
you might want to move there.

You need to write a bot that tweets 'I love the USA but wouldn't want to live
there' every day.

~~~
lucozade
> 'I love the USA but wouldn't want to live there'

I have a work colleague who has a green card but lives in the UK. He gets
questioned on it every time he goes through US customs.

Essentially, the very idea that someone would _choose_ not to live in the US
is considered suspicious.

~~~
pedrosorio
> I have a work colleague who has a green card but lives in the UK. He gets
> questioned on it every time he goes through US customs.

> Essentially, the very idea that someone would choose not to live in the US
> is considered suspicious.

This is misinformation. Green card is the colloquial name for the "Permanent
Resident Card". As the name implies, you're supposed to live in the US if you
hold this card. Your colleague may be flying under the radar but he's probably
violating the conditions required to maintain a green card and might lose it
in the future:

[https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-
granted/ma...](https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-
granted/maintaining-permanent-residence)

"You may also lose your permanent resident status by intentionally abandoning
it. You may be found to have abandoned your status if you:

Move to another country, intending to live there permanently.

Remain outside of the United States for an extended period of time, unless you
intended this to be a temporary absence. (...)"

~~~
rdtsc
> Green card is the colloquial name for the "Permanent Resident Card".

Agreed. If caught he could get in trouble and have it revoked.

------
bogomipz
The biggest threat of violence to US citizens comes not from immigrants but
from gun violence inflicted on them by their fellow American citizens.

Barely a week goes by where the US doesn't experience an act of domestic
terrorism without some total nutter shoots up a mall, movie theater, school,
church etc. In fact the frequency of these gun violence incidents is such that
they sometimes interrupt each other's news cycles. There is even a lexicon
that has been invented to describe the - "sheltering in place, "active
shooter" etc.

You will never hear the US media call or government call these acts of
terrorism or the perpetrators of this gun violence against innocent people
referred to as terrorists.

It's worth noting Donald Trump the architect of this anti-immigrant hysteria
opposes expanding federal background checks for gun purchases.

------
belorn
Immigration visa is for those that seek permanent residence, while visitor
visas are nonimmigrant visas?

Each time I see this news, the distiction isn't made clear if this is intended
to be for everyone visiting the country, or part of the process when a person
is seeking permanent residence.

cr1895: Thanks!

~~~
mosselman
So you find it acceptable for the US government to demand access to everything
I have on Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp and Telegram(?), etc just because I am
going to live there? That is insane.

~~~
cr1895
>So you find it acceptable ... That is insane.

They were seeking (an important) clarification, not making a judgment whether
it was acceptable.

You just assumed they found it acceptable and called that insane.

~~~
mosselman
Fair point, I am sorry.

------
radicaldreamer
Asking this of naturalized citizens is ridiculous and probably against the 4th
Amendment. As a group, you can't discriminate against naturalized citizens and
natural born citizens except for the job of the presidency as prescribed in
the constitution.

Not that it matters whether it's only people with green cards or work visas or
any other category of people required to do this, but I'm hoping some
precedents for data privacy at border crossings are set or overturned thanks
to this ham-handed approach from the Trump administration.

------
neilalexander
As controversial as it may be, is it really that surprising to anyone that
governments want this sort of information on tap about anyone, not just
immigrants?

We need to stop expecting social media platforms to respect our privacy. They
don't. They won't. What you post on Facebook and Twitter is as good as public
domain.

You really shouldn't be surprised to find something that you had posted in
either a government file or a newspaper headline.

~~~
js8
I downvoted you. Social media are a new category. It's not like writing to the
newspapers, yet it's not like telling somebody in private.

And society will still have to figure out where to draw the line. Is searching
your social media a search? I mean, I think by U.S. laws, searching a large
hall which only purpose is to meet with other people, even large number and by
invitation, still requires a warrant.

~~~
neilalexander
Posting to Facebook isn’t completely unlike writing to a newspaper. You send
something to Facebook and it is syndicated to whomever. How and when it gets
syndicated is down to Facebook, not you, and even if you delete it then you
have no guarantee that it was actually deleted. You don’t really own that
information anymore.

Same goes for Twitter and Instagram etc.

It’s a mistake to believe that the information you post won’t be made public
in some way, whether to a government or another private company or individual.
How can we declare that a social media capture, in that case, is a “search”?
It isn’t really a “search” - it’s practically there for the taking.

------
oedenfield
While I don't like any government collecting more data then they absolutely
NEED - many businesses (including startups) are collecting social media data
on us for the purposes of marketing their products/services and no one bats an
eye (not many outside the EFF at least). For the record, I'm not a fan of data
collection for either purpose.

------
maxerickson
What information does the government keep in the "immigration files" of
naturalized citizens?

There's a little bit of documentation that makes sense to me, something from
the country of origin and a distillation of the naturalization paperwork that
confirmed it was completed. But I don't see what information beyond that would
be worth keeping.

------
idibidiart
The earlier Gizmodo article states all immigrants not only those entering the
country. It also mentions naturalized citizens.

Can anyone in/validate?

[https://gizmodo.com/us-homeland-security-will-start-
collecti...](https://gizmodo.com/us-homeland-security-will-start-collecting-
social-media-1818777094)

------
nnq
This whole set of measures will probably lead to more and more successful new
businesses being started _outside USA._

...and most non-American entrepreneurs will breathe relieved, loosing some of
the fear that the SV brain-magnet can siphon their talent away at any moment.
So yey for everyone (except the USA).

------
LeoNatan25
Land of the free and home of the brave.

------
gorbachev
How is this going to fly with the various European data privacy laws? The
European Union has previously objected strongly, and even hinted at punitive
counter actions, to similar data gathering initiatives by the US Government.

------
yalogin
If the US itself does this, it gives a blank cheque for every other country to
do it and in some cases it will be ok for other countries to retaliate. Other
countries will go further and ask for passwords by default as well.

------
josephv
I'm with Schneier on this, it's hard to get worked up about the gov't scraping
information an individual publishes publicly. The larger trend is obviously
still disturbing.

~~~
unethical_ban
Stuff I put on Facebook isn't public. It's shared among friends. It's like
what I talk about with friends at a bar, or at my house - and if the
government asked for recordings of my chit-chat with friends (or even asked
whether I recorded conversations) I would be horribly bothered.

So I am horribly bothered. I will be writing Congressmen and donating to the
EFF this weekend.

------
tootie
Time for people to start making fake social media accounts. Just setup a
LinkedIn that says you're software architect and a lawyer, then show it to
border guards.

~~~
slig
Terrible advice. Lying will get you arrested.

------
txutxu
So this means they are not collecting Social Media Data on All Social Media
Users?

I was wrong then. I should start using social media as I'm not U.S.
emigrant.</sarcasm>

------
scrumper
>“social media handles, aliases, associated identifiable information and
search results,”

_How_ are they going to collect that, particularly search results?

------
Iv
Just like they did before but now somehow the new administration considers it
smart to brag about it...

------
jackpot51
Good to see we are still on track for our descent into tyranny. Ahead of
schedule, even!

------
throwawaydbd
I find it comical that the security apparatus becomes ever more orwellian at
the same time maybe 5% of the US population just ran across the Mexican
border.

------
znpy
What if I am only transiting the country ?

~~~
ibejoeb
I suspect that if you are not a citizen of one of the countries in the Visa
Waiver Program then you will need a C-1 transit visa, so you'd likely need to
provide the information the same as if you were visiting/working/studying/etc.

Visa Waver Program: [https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-
waiver-...](https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-
program.html)

------
dalacv
I think this is a step in the right direction for the internet. Just turn the
whole thing off.

------
fiokoden
Off topic but recently given the option of vacationing in the USA or Japan,
well easy choice.

Do I want to visit a frightening, privacy invading, oppressive airport, or
Japan?

I went to Japan.

I'll do my very best to avoid travel to USA if possible. Strange that this is
what USA wants.

Trump has put up a wall, even if it is not yet physical.

~~~
noinsight
Doesn’t Japan fingerprint people at immigration ? (And maybe take their
picture?)

~~~
vidarh
So like the US?

EDIT: I get that this doesn't make Japan any better - it's still invasive, but
it's pretty much the low bar these days, whereas collecting social media
accounts is a massive step further.

------
katastic
Uh... isn't that the entire point of a background check? To see if people are
dangerous before they get in?

If I get a gun permit, should the cops not look at every public aspect of my
history? Should we make it easier for people to have guns? Now the next snarky
comment will say "guns aren't people." Yeah. But a background check is a
background check.

What happens when a terrorist gets in (surely that'll never happen again!) and
we find out their social media history was full of death threats? Will
everyone feel the same way?

It seems like we've gotten to a point of public debate in this country where
people completely live in fantasy worlds where they can lop off anything that
happens in the real world that damages their arguments. Terrorism exists.
Blame whoever you want but it does exist. And publicly posted information
should be the #2 (after criminal record) thing to search. I mean... we WANT to
catch the bad guys, right? Are we pretending that bad people don't exist?

~~~
matt4077
Social media accounts aren't "public history". They're probably the single
most private sphere for many people. If you got to read all my private
messages on Facebook, you'd know me better than my parent and my girlfriends
together.

And a "background check" isn't a "background check". It's a completely vague
concept, from some prospective employer calling one or two references all the
way to the 8-months process of obtaining a security clearance.

That's really easy to see if you consider what kind of activities involve some
sort of "background check": employment (see above), getting on a plane,
opening a bank account, getting a loan, taking a tour of the Capitol: while
each one of these is technically "voluntary", it'd be a distinction without a
difference if they added this as a requirement for such activities.

~~~
neilalexander
This is the biggest mistake that people make. Social media is NOT a private
sphere. There's nothing remotely private about posting things to a public
service on the Internet over which you have no control. We need to stop
treating them as such.

~~~
matt4077
I also don't control the phone company, the post office, or my friends' email
providers. Am I supposed to never communicate with them unless it's face-to-
face?

I'm not talking nuclear launch codes here. It's impossible to lead a normal
life without using communication services, and it's some sort of fantasy to
think you could, for example, organize your social life without leaving enough
clues to create a pretty accurate profile.

So I think what we need to stop doing is pretending it's realistic for
everyone to run around cosplaying MI6.

~~~
neilalexander
There’s a distinction to be made between communication services and social
media.

Personal communications should of course be private, but social media is not a
form of personal communication. It’s a form of broadcast, usually to a
company’s servers you have absolutely zero control over.

You don’t need to “cosplay MI6” to be diligent with what you share and what
you don’t. You should just be prepared to assume that anything you post on
social media can and will appear in the future.

