
Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police - gts
http://www.zengardner.com/ukrainian-protesters-hold-mirrors-police-forcing-reflect/
======
aaronem
> You can imagine what was going through their minds as they saw themselves in
> their ridiculous garb and dehumanized condition.

"At least they're not throwing things."

Somewhat related, I'm curious about the veracity of a "news item" for which
the second Google result is a blog [1] whose header includes a lengthy quote
from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and which appears largely to have
been promulgated by a charming [2] fellow who goes by the handle "Red Pill
Philosophy", and seems mostly to concern himself with blaming society for his
romantic and sexual failure.

[1] [http://vaticproject.blogspot.com/2014/01/ukrainian-
protester...](http://vaticproject.blogspot.com/2014/01/ukrainian-protesters-
hold-up-mirrors-to.html)

[2] [http://redpillphilosophy.com](http://redpillphilosophy.com)

~~~
moocowduckquack
I agree that it is a really crappy source. News orgainsations are also
following this however.

[http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-protests-smoke-and-
mirr...](http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-protests-smoke-and-mirrors-in-
kiev-eu-russia)

~~~
easy_rider
They all seem to have a great time, maybe it is working!

------
joyeuse6701
I like the idea, there's a lot of thought provocation in it. Having said that,
I don't like how the article belittles the riot police force. Aren't the older
generation (grandma) at least partly responsible for the state in which their
kids (riot police) are in? It's not like these 'thugs' were created in a
vacuum and that these 'grandma's' are helpless. They were young, and they made
decisions...more likely to have more effect on what the current state is than
the men in uniform ironically.

~~~
aaronem
A moment's thought, had you paused to engage in same, would've led you to
realize that Ukrainian grandmothers today were, in youth, governed by the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, whose regime was never particularly noted
for the extent of the freedom of conscience and action it extended to its
subjects.

~~~
elohesra
Recursively apply Joyeuse's point until you hit a generation that wasn't
coerced into making bad choices. Joyeuse's main point was that we can't blame
a younger generation and simultaneously vindicate the preceding generation.
This does seem to hold true.

~~~
aaronem
I suppose, in the wake of the Nürnberg Assizes, it makes sense to argue in
this fashion. But I've never been all that strongly convinced by the argument
that "only following orders" is never a defense, especially as applied to
civilians; it seems to require of every human a degree of moral fiber which
has never been commonly found at any point in history.

Had these grandmothers, in their youth, rebelled against their rulers, they'd
have failed, and even those who survived would've been abused in every
imaginable fashion. How does this imply that they're at fault for the abuse
they suffer at the hands of their grandchildren's cohort today?

------
easy_rider
They probably pose in front of mirrors anyway. I know I would if I had such
awesome gear.

~~~
gadders
"Look at me! I'm totally Judge Dredd."

~~~
easy_rider
Exactly. I'm grateful that I don't get downvoted for the comment btw. But
sorry, this lacks any news or intellectual value whatsoever. Now if a study
would emerge that mirrors as a reflective tool are a proven deterrent of riot
police, this would incite some nice debates about the human psyche.

I don't want to listen to some guy with dirty undies hanging on his bedpost
talking about the "evil black riot police" and how they get schooled with
grandma's with mirrors.

The hippies used to do this with flowers in the 60's. That is a long time ago.
Is it true that riot police is getting more violent or aggressive in nature?
Or could it be that those helmets and shields are there to protect them from
cranial bleeding.

~~~
moocowduckquack
_a study would emerge that mirrors as a reflective tool are a proven deterrent
of riot police_

That seems to be a rather high bar to set for a rather poetic act. I take it
you also do not trust parachutes.

 _As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness
of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using
randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have
criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational
data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of
evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind,
randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute._

[http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459](http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459)

~~~
easy_rider
Thanks, that was hilarious! Tough cookie trying to get volunteers with a
placebo group. That might be the deal cutter..

------
Mikeb85
One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks
Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian.

Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were
even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent
elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd.

The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part
because the pro-West factions were so divided they really had no chance
against the Party of Regions (which enjoys widespread support in the eastern
parts of the country).

~~~
free652
I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd
say its far from the truth. Where did you get that notion? At least not in
Odessa.

Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with
every year.

~~~
new_test
I grew up in south eastern Ukraine (as Russian as Ukraine gets). I'm still in
touch with some of my childhood friends, and the views are pretty split in my
hometown. One friend that I went to school with always posts all kinds of pro-
Europe anti-Yanukovich petitions online. At the same time I just received an
email from another friend this morning and his opinion is "Those fucking
protesters are turning Kiev into shit, good thing we don't have that in our
town. We did have some but they got shit thrown at them [literally what he
said], so they sit at home now." Basically his opinion is that it's western
governments trying to manipulate Ukrainians.

------
densh
Unfortunately public protests are soon going to become illegal in Ukraine as
the president have just signed a set of laws the basically turns the country
into police state [1] [2]

[1]
[http://citizenjournal.info/?id=14710](http://citizenjournal.info/?id=14710)

[2] [http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/welcome-to-little-
russ...](http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/welcome-to-little-
russia-335065.html)

~~~
philwelch
I guess the "Orange Revolution" didn't work out in the long run.

~~~
Mikeb85
Not really. The 'heroes' of the Orange Revolution turned against each other
(see Yushchenko vs Tymoshenko drama) , raided the country's coffers, ruined
its economy, and lost badly in the most recent elections.

~~~
philwelch
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

~~~
geoka9
Well... The new one is not exactly the same. He's a former felon with multiple
convictions for violent crimes who, judging by the people he installed in key
positions all over the country, still has connections with the organized
crime.

Makes quite a difference.

------
hawkharris
This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of
an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame
the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines?

The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan
and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that
would occur as a result of the American occupation of those countries. Maybe
they were swept into a whirlwind, powerless to prevent those casualties,
because of policymakers.

I expect that this will be a very unpopular statement, but maybe holding those
on the front lines (e.g. soldiers and SWAT members) accountable will help
create pressure against immoral government crackdowns. Maybe we should be
critical of both those on the front lines and those making the strategic
decisions.

~~~
masklinn
> This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part
> of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we
> blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front
> lines?

Going with military rules and Nuremberg precedents, likely both.

Command responsibility doctrine makes superiors responsible for the crimes of
their troops (let alone for their own unlawful orders) and superior orders
defences started falling after WWII, especially during the Nuremberg trials:

> The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a
> superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law,
> provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

the 1998 Rome statute tends to confirm, although a superior order defence may
still work under it:

> 1\. The fact that a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been
> committed by a person pursuant to an order of a Government or of a superior,
> whether military or civilian, shall not relieve that person of criminal
> responsibility unless:

> (a) The person was under a legal obligation to obey orders of the Government
> or the superior in question;

> (b) The person did not know that the order was unlawful; and

> (c) The order was not manifestly unlawful.

Superiors ought be held accountable either way, boots can escape if they
demonstrate that the order was not _manifestly_ unlawful.

------
nailer
Agreed with the points about making the officers consider their actions, but
also: it's also very hard to strike at one's own image.

~~~
eliasmacpherson
or cover a grandmother in shards of glass.

------
rurounijones
That is a beautiful idea and sentiment. Well done Ukranian protesters.

------
Mikeb85
By the way, this might have something to do with the new laws:
[http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-protesters-charge-police-
lines...](http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-protesters-charge-police-lines-
tractor-eyewitnesses-123627644.html)

------
bonemachine
Ah, how I envy the freedom available to political protestors in the former
Soviet Union.

In NYC (during the Occupy days), those mirrors would have been swiftly
confiscated as "potential weapons."

------
nmc
What happens when they start fighting, and the mirrors break into sharp pieces
of glass?

~~~
new_test
This will be the official reason why it will become illegal to bring mirrors
to the protest.

