
New FAA Guidelines Permit More Device Use - sheri
http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/31/new-faa-guidelines-permit-more-device-use-all-the-way-from-take-off-to-landing/
======
poulsbohemian
I have flown a lot (IE: 100K+ miles/year) at various points in my career, and
I'm disappointed by the commentary here about flight attendants. Think for a
moment about their job - every day they are interacting with hundreds of
people, assessing which ones might be a problem and trying to deal with each
personality type with a smile, all while balancing (often in high heels) your
drink at 30,000 feet in a vehicle traveling hundreds of miles per hour AND to
add insult to injury, doing so on little sleep and for very little pay. Give
'em a break, eh?

Separate from that, even as a frequent flyer, I'd rather people _not_ have
their attention stuck in their iDevice during takeoff and landing. Those are
the times when a problem on the aircraft is most likely to materialize, and
I'd rather not lose my ass in an accident because your attention was on Angry
Birds. Further, in those minutes at the beginning of a flight if you are
fooling around with your phone/kindle/etc and blocking the isle, you delay
expedient loading and unloading of the aircraft. I've had colleagues busy on
their [device] say things like "but, but I was just wrapping up a call, why
was the flight attendant so rude!" No asshole, you were blocking the plane
from loading / unloading. Think of others for a whopping ten minutes and put
down the device so we can all safely load / unload and get on/off the ground.

~~~
jhandl
I think of flight attendants as firemen (or firewomen) serving us drinks and
food. Because that's what they are. They will be the ones saving your ass if
the situation comes to that.

~~~
BlackDeath3
How so?

~~~
jhandl
You could look it up by yourself, but here's the gist of it: the flight
attendant's top priority is your safety, not your happiness or comfort. They
are trained in emergency procedures and if at all possible they will be the
ones who make sure you get out of a cabin full of smoke after a crash. To cite
a recent example: [http://jezebel.com/no-ones-talking-about-the-flight-
attendan...](http://jezebel.com/no-ones-talking-about-the-flight-attendant-
heroes-in-t-706818871)

------
Osiris
I just want to be able to read my kindle on takeoff and landing. I hope this
goes into effect soon. The device uses the exact same power sitting in my lap
with the case closed as it does while I'm reading it.

~~~
blhack
I've tried to explain this to flight attendants before, but they don't care.

"Turn your device off!"

"This is _off_. It's really neat, actually! Once the screen is rendered to the
eink display it stays there until...nevermind, okay it's off now"

/sigh

~~~
DanBC
You know that Kindle can actually be turned off[1], right?

Arguing with low wage employees while they're having to deal with hundreds of
passengers during the short pre-flight legally mandated checks makes you
appear like an arsehole. They don't know every device on the market, nor
whether that device is using 3G or wifi or is just sleeping or is off. And
they don't need to know, they've been told to make sure that everything is
turned off and that there are serious consequences if it doesn't happen.

The fact that the regulations are idiotic is not the fault of the busy,
underpaid, low-skilled, attendants.

[1]
[https://kindle.s3.amazonaws.com/Kindle_User%27s_Guide_Englis...](https://kindle.s3.amazonaws.com/Kindle_User%27s_Guide_English.pdf)

Page 20

> Power switch — puts your Kindle to sleep, wakes it up, and turns your Kindle
> on or off. The power switch is located just to the right of the micro-
> USB/power port. To put your Kindle to sleep, slide and release the power
> switch; the screensaver appears on the display. While your Kindle is asleep,
> other keys and buttons are locked so that you don’t accidentally change the
> place in your reading. For Kindle with Special Offers, the center of the
> 5-way controller is not locked while your Kindle is asleep. To turn your
> Kindle off, slide and hold the power switch for seven seconds until the
> screen goes blank and then release.

~~~
robomartin
> Arguing with low wage employees > ... > low-skilled, attendants

I down-voted this comment because I found it to be condescending. I don't know
anyone who works as a flight attendant nor have any relationship to the
airline industry that I know of.

What you said is simply mean-spirited. Not everyone is an engineer. Not
everyone understands technology. Not everyone needs to. How much they earn and
how skilled they are at technology is no measure of a person. That's really
offensive.

I know many people who are virtually poor and uneducated who are better human
beings --by far-- than some PhD's I've come across in my life. Why must some
in technology behave as though these people are beneath them? This is
shameful. What a horrible thing to say.

~~~
DanBC
You make a very good point. I'd like to apologize for my poor choice of words.

> Not everyone understands technology. Not everyone needs to.

This is more what I meant, and what I should have said. I agree that "low
skilled" is really offensive.

~~~
robomartin
I'm glad you see it this way. This could easily be the result of shooting off
a post without taking a moment to read what you've written.

You are not the first person to do that, nor the last. I've done it plenty of
times. Life goes on.

Sometimes I think these fora need to have a selectable posting delay setting.
Let the user choose whether posting is immediate or not. I would probably set
mine to at least a 15 minute delay. I'd sure save me from making an ass of
myself on occasion.

~~~
kgermino
_Sometimes I think these fora need to have a selectable posting delay setting.
Let the user choose whether posting is immediate or not. I would probably set
mine to at least a 15 minute delay. I 'd sure save me from making an ass of
myself on occasion_

Actually there is (at least here) look for the "delay" setting in your user
page. It's the number of minutes between hitting submit and a post going live.

~~~
robomartin
RTFM. Funny, I guess I never paid attention to that.

------
bloodroot
I wish one of these articles would quote some actual regulations. As far as I
understand, the CFRs (FARs) have been more advisory than regulatory in these
details, generally leaving it up to the airlines to decide their policies on
personal electronics, then approving those policies. The 10k foot rule that
Techcrunch refers to was never in the FARs, as far as I've read, rather it
is/was an FCC regulation. Seriously, I'd like to see the actual regulations
that have changed, if anyone can find them.

~~~
jcoby
FAR 91.21 is the rule that is being enforced:

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the
operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following
U.S.-registered civil aircraft: (1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air
carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or (2) Any other
aircraft while it is operated under IFR. (b) Paragraph (a) of this section
does not apply to— (1) Portable voice recorders; (2) Hearing aids; (3) Heart
pacemakers; (4) Electric shavers; or (5) Any other portable electronic device
that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference
with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to
be used. (c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier
operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required
by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the
aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other
aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other
operator of the aircraft.

Advisory Circular (AC) 91.21-1B is the recommended implementation of FAR 91.21
and includes the take off/landing and operation below 10,000 rules and seems
to be what everyone is using.

I assume that it's AC 91.21-1B that is being modified. Its text is too big to
paste here but you can read it here:
[http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/A...](http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2091.21-1B.pdf)

------
coin
There is nothing about flight that "defy physics", in fact it is physics as to
how airplanes fly

~~~
jahewson
That phrase irked me too. Why the magic around airplanes? Saying "seemingly
defy physics" would be a huge improvement, though it retains the tired
metaphor. After all, it's a lack of sensible scientific thinking which led to
the FAA maintaining this ban for so long!

~~~
alexeisadeski3
It's... a joke.

~~~
coryfklein
If it was, I must have missed the punchline.

> Don’t start celebrating just yet – this doesn’t mean you can continue
> playing Candy Crush while waiting for your massive, heavy hunk of metal to
> defy physics and launch itself into the air as of this very moment.

------
bradly
Link to the FAA.gov page:
[http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId...](http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=15254&cid=TW189)

------
buckbova
I was thinking about this the other day with all the smartwatch news. I can
picture attendants telling passengers to shut off their watches.

------
kunai
Part of me likes this.

Another part of me hates this.

I usually don't really do much during takeoff and landing. The thrill of an
aircraft's takeoff and landing may wear for some, but it pretty much never
does for me. I just stare out the window (if I'm lucky) observing the
spoilerons deploy and close, and those flaps deploy and retract. I love
hearing that slight loss of engine power for climb after takeoff to prevent
overspeed.

Cruise is pretty boring, but when I'm somewhere over Nevada or any picturesque
area, I put my S7 to sleep and just watch the beautiful scenery.

The pragmatist in me is saying, "Yay, now I and everyone else can work round-
flight!"

The Transcendentalist in me is saying, "How I wish others could see the beauty
of a mass of metal rising to the heavens, and all that we can see below from
above..."

~~~
CodeMage
I have a message for the Transcendentalist: most of us would love to enjoy
that beauty, but having no leg space or access to a window kind of hamper us
;)

~~~
jrockway
First class is not that expensive anymore.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Are you joking? Or are you not in touch with what constitutes "expensive" for
most Americans? My recent coach-class round trip from Kentucky to Washington
state and back cost $500. That's expensive. I looked into business class for
the same trip, and it was about twice as expensive. Didn't even bother looking
at first.

~~~
kunai
Well, FWIW AirTran used to offer <$60 business class upgrades. Not sure if
they still do.

------
jcutrell
This is fantastic news for people who fly a lot.

I know that a "2-hour flight" for me _could_ mean a really good sprint on
something, if it weren't for the interruptions that tell me when to put my
computer away and ask me if I want peanuts.

~~~
bradddd
I'll find this even more useful in short, 1-hour type flights. Out of the
whole flight, you usually only get ~30 mins at altitude to pull out your
tablet or laptop.

~~~
JshWright
But you're still welcome to pay $16 for in-flight WiFi during those 30
minutes!

~~~
brk
1 hour pass is usually "only" $4.95, but I get your point.

I just pay $40 for a monthly pass.

------
swombat
Please, let this be one area where Europe promptly copies the US!...

------
robomartin
A number of years ago I wrote a bunch of Verilog code and ran simulations
during a flight from LA to NY. The code, save a few minor issues, worked
perfectly when tested on hardware. What's remarcable about this is that I
wrote the code with pen and paper and ran the simulations similarly by hand on
graph paper. No computer involved.

After a couple of similar experiences I've resorted to using flights as an
excuse to unplug for a few hours. A set of good noise cancelling headphones
and a notebook can give you an opportunity to explore and think in ways that
might be nearly impossible at the office.

~~~
GrinningFool
I've gotten out of the habit of this, and honestly don't know if I'm better
off for it. When I didn't have access to a computer, I would fairly regularly
'implement' designs with pen and paper and test it too. As you experienced,
these would then work perfectly or nearly so on actual systems.

Now I almost always have a computer or computer-like device at hand so there's
just no need. Sometimes it feels like this results in more experimenting, but
less thinking.

~~~
robomartin
> less thinking.

That's exactly my point in a way. I realized that I am always immersed in
technology. There are one or more screens of some sort in front of me nearly
any time I am awake. A lot of us have lost contact with the idea and practice
of thinking. Of talking to yourself. Perhaps doodling in a notebook to explore
ideas and thoughts in your mind. For some reason I started to use flights as
an excuse to practice thought. As noisy and uncomfortable as that environment
can be I have found it amazingly effective for the simple task of letting my
mind take trips in various directions with nothing but a piece of paper and a
pen in front of me. I no-longer do paper-coding in flight. I think.

~~~
GrinningFool
Flights are unpleasant enough for me that try to find some mindless
entertainment to make the time go faster. I'm too tall to comfortably use a
computer in my seat (especially when the ass-hat in front of me inevitably
reclines). I don't know when unapplied thinking dropped from my list of
entertainment options...

I have a trip coming up next week, seems like it might be a good opportunity
to try to do something a bit more useful.

Thanks for your original comment and the sidebar conversation that led me to
realize it'd be a Good Thing to get back to it!

------
mattsfrey
Can anyone tell me what city is shown in the main picture?

~~~
nrmilstein
San Francisco. That's the Bay Bridge.

------
greenlander
Fortunately, FAA regulations also seem to require the flight attendants to sit
in their seats during takeoff and landing.

Once the flight attendants are done "policing" the isles and get in their
seats, I just take out my Kindle and start reading again.

So far, I haven't caused any aircraft crashes... and my fellow travelers have
never called me out on it: apparently they also think the rules are stupid.

~~~
look_lookatme
And what's so difficult about following the rules and being inconvenienced for
20 minutes?

The amount of entitlement in this HN discussion is nuts.

~~~
greenlander
I spent a large part of my career working for a small company in Silicon
Valley that became a Very Big Company.

One of the things that the CEO liked to do for a while is have a "lunch with
the interns” during the summer. He’d chat with them and give them an
opportunity to ask questions. As the manager of a lot of interns, I was also
invited, and I often went. I was (and still am) on a first-name basis with the
CEO.

One time an intern asked, “what do I need to become the CEO of a company like
this?” The question made me laugh, because I already knew the answer. The
answer is that there is no answer. You must have a vision about what you can
do, and you must believe it. If you allow every idiot in the world to draw a
box around your behavior, you won’t accomplish anything.

I know that the Kindle (with wifi off) isn't going to crash the airplane.
Amazon knows that the Kindle isn't going to crash the airplane. So why should
I respect the opinion of the flight attendant? The flight attendant is, after
all, a flight attendant because they would have never had make it through
differential equations without sleeping with the professor. So why should I
give that ditz any respect?

This isn’t about ‘entitlement’. Take all that crap your professors at the
university told you and put it in /dev/null where it belongs. Reframe the
issue in terms of what is right and what is possible.

If you want to be truly successful, you must learn about breaking the rules.
(And by “truly” successful, I mean truly successful. If your goal is to
accumulate $800K in your 401K and own a house in Sunnyvale, California
outright… well you can do that by following all the rules and following
Company Policies.) Write your own rules in life.

Perhaps I already answered your question, “And what's so difficult about
following the rules and being inconvenienced for 20 minutes.” And if you don’t
feel that I did, it means that you’ll never find the answer.

Maybe you’ll find success. Or maybe you won’t. But the feeling will be
liberating. There is no man like a free man.

~~~
austinz
Thank you for proving the parent's point about entitlement. "So why should I
give that ditz any respect?" Seriously? "There is no man like a free man"? As
if reading your Kindle during takeoff is going to turn you into a Randian
ubermensch ready to disrupt every industry in the world?

~~~
BlackDeath3
Sometimes, people actually _are_ entitled. Something to think about.

This isn't to say that the engineer is necessarily correct and the flight
attendant necessarily incorrect, and I don't agree that the "sleeping with the
professor" statement can necessarily be applied in general, but following
rules 'cause rules are rules is not really something to aspire to. It's
unfortunate that for many, blind conformity seems to be the order of the day.

~~~
austinz
I agree with you. I think the rule is asinine as well, I'm glad it's dead, and
I think we should be pushing back against stupid things. And following rules
for rules' sake is a stupid thing.

But I don't think that meaningless platitudes or misogynistic stereotypes are
a good justification for entitlement. Someone who's read the literature and
understands why there's almost no way consumer electronics can affect a modern
airliner's avionics might be more entitled than someone who thrives on
'breaking the rules' and thinks flight attendants are stupid 'ditzes'. What
happens when that stupid ditz says something that turns out to be right?

~~~
BlackDeath3
>Someone who's read the literature and understands why there's almost no way
consumer electronics can affect a modern airliner's avionics might be more
entitled than someone who thrives on 'breaking the rules' and thinks flight
attendants are stupid 'ditzes'.

I'm not really sure that we disagree here, although you seem to suggest that
there is some mutual exclusion between people who are informed and people who
enjoy breaking stupid rules, which is silly.

>What happens when that stupid ditz says something that turns out to be right?

I don't know, what happens? I didn't suggest that flight attendants are always
wrong, nor that stupid people are always wrong (nor that flight attendants are
always stupid). Though I think that my issue here is less about being
factually correct and more about providing adequate justification for why
you're correct.

