

Germany is downgrading - grobmeier
http://www.grobmeier.de/germany-is-downgrading-02052013.html

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madmaze
I somewhat disagree with this article, at least from my experience. From my
experience internet has always been cheaper, faster and more reliable than any
time I have had a connecting on the US. I have mostly had experience with
Kabel BW and Telekom.

For example in the US at the moment it costs me ~$80 for a reasonable cable
connection from comcast 20Mb/s. I can expect my connection to go down for a
few seconds/minutes about once a day and once or twice a month it'll be out
for longer. I have had this and similar issues up and down the east coast in 5
different locations.

Maybe the experiences with Telekom in Frankfurt and with Kabel BW have been
above the norm, but for I never/rarely had connectivity issues and it has
always been much cheaper.

~~~
daliusd
It would be interesting to hear how much cheaper we are talking here about.
E.g. here in Lithuania (Eastern Europe) I pay about 15$ for 100Mb/s (for 30$ I
could get 300Mb/s).

~~~
kybernetyk
I had similar internet when I was living for 3 years in Poland (Gdansk).
125mbit for ~50 PLN (which was around EUR 15).

Now I'm back in Germany and have fabulous 16mbit for nearly 50 Euros. (Fastest
internet I can get here.)

Also it's ridiculous that my internet access in Poland was set up within 2
days and here I had to wait 6 weeks for everything to work properly.

~~~
ajussis
First of all, I moved to Berlin 9 months ago and in general I'm pretty happy
with the service uptime and promised speed etc.

BUT the activation time of your connection is something unacceptable in
Germany. Four weeks seems to be the normal case for a landline connection to
be up and running. FOUR WEEKS, are you kidding me?

And the same problem is ahead of you if you're moving to another flat.

As I did. I moved one month ago. And I didn't know the new address until 1
week before the end of month. As soon as I knew about it I went to the ISP &
asked them to make the switch to the new address.

I had to pay extra (which was ok) and WAIT ANOTHER FOUR WEEKS (which was not
ok at all).

So in effect I was without internet for 3 weeks while paying the connection to
my old address at the same time.

Someone was saying that here the bottleneck is on Telekom's end. And maybe so?
The guy who eventually came after 4 weeks was from Telekom - he basically came
around for max 10 minutes (probably 5) and made some magic tricks and voilà -
internet working.

EDIT: Wild guess #1: the problem is just too few people at Telekom.

Wild guess #2: If Telekom would offer a service that you pay 100EUR extra to
get the connection in two days, they 1) could do it, 2) have loads of
customers wanting that service and 3) give jobs to more people and 4) have
more money in the pocket

------
Vivtek
T-Mobile in the States is, if possible, even worse. I visited Puerto Rico in
February and decided on a T-Mobile stick because the one I use in Budapest
works perfectly. In PR, though, there were URLs that simply didn't go through
- and there is literally no support. None; you simply can't get support at
all. No phone, no email - just a "community support" forum where you can post
things if you feel like blowing off steam. And it still cost $10/GB.

Not only that, you can only purchase a new block of 5 GB _after_ your current
one has already been used up. Before then they simply don't take your money -
unless you set up autopay. And you can't purchase time online, because the URL
forwards to nowhere - see above lack of any support facility. You can't even
report this breakage.

So you have to do it by phone. But there are two systems; first you have to
load money onto your account, then you can use the money on your account to
pay for a new 5GB block - but these are two different systems with two
different numbers and they each require you to punch in your phone number and
a PIN code. Different PIN codes, if I recall. And again, no human support at
all.

But then let me tell you about our T-Mobile cell phones here in Budapest. My
phone started sending me "premium" SMS messages at 1500 ft a pop (about $7.50
per premium message) until the entire balance was used up. As service messages
so they don't show in the Inbox. T-Mobile was able to block that, but my
wife's phone started mysteriously "accessing the Internet" (it's not a smart
phone), again at something like 500 ft per access, invisibly, until her
balance was used up. The only recourse is to go to a T-Mobile store and stand
in line for half an hour, because they do kind of have phone support here in
Hungary, but the only thing they can tell you is to go to the store and wait
in line.

The store has no permission to escalate to technicians. The people in the
store "disabled" Internet on my wife's phone three separate times; the theft
continued each time. Sometimes they'd refund some money and apologize and
swear up and down that everything was disabled.

Finally, it seems to have stopped on its own. Maybe it was a system
misconfiguration, maybe not. It's impossible to know, because clearly T-Mobile
itself has no idea.

Their Internet stick (in Hungary) works great, though. So I continue to use
them - it's just that if there's ever a problem they are entirely unable to
fix it. The entire company is so Balkanized and so incredibly poorly managed
that they can only barely function if nothing goes wrong.

~~~
FnF_VE
Fact: Magyar Telekom has the worst customer service of all telecom operators
in Hungary according to government funded studies, year after year. I was
involved in QA for a few months on a contract basis, bc the parent company
(Deutsche Telekom) is apparently freaked out by this fact. So anyway, here are
some tips on how to deal with them, unfortunately you can't avoid them
forever, but I haven't been in a store for years.

Going to a store should be your last resort. Use My T-Mobile/My T-Home (on
their website). If you have a really special problem, call them. Also, never
buy anything in a store or on the phone, unless you're very, very good at
negotiating, you get 10% off of your orders automatically on the website.
Customer service agents use the very same interface (with more privileges of
course) but you can do pretty much anything you would want on My T-Mobile.
E.g. I know for a fact (I'm also a customer) that you can disable receiving
premium texts and having an Internet connection altogether. It's worth
checking out every service if they're enabled or disabled at least once, so
you can avoid unexpected charges and activate things that you know you might
need some day. Btw, your options are very clearly described, much better than
how an agent would explain them to you.

If you absolutely must see someone in person, here are some more tips. Always
go to T-Pont stores, those are the official reps of the company, never go to a
store with a big T-Mobile sign, those are resellers, agents there receive poor
training and all they want is to sell you stuff. Don't go to a store in the
late afternoon/evening hours, they have the most customers then and you have
to wait more. 30 min waiting time is actually not very common, if you go any
other time you either won't have to wait or only have to wait a few minutes.
Also check on My T-Mobile if you're a 'gold' or 'platinum' client. If you are,
always choose that on the first screen in the in-store queue ticketing system,
and you'll get to someone in a few minutes even if there are loads of people
in the store, bc most people don't know about this.

Yeah, it's ridiculous that you have to know all these to get a good service,
but you don't have to put up with it, e.g. Telenor's customer service is
pretty good, or so I've heard.

~~~
Vivtek
Wow, I've never once seen any of that on the site. All our phones are on
Domino prepaid plans, though (that might make a difference) because we're only
in Hungary one year in three or so and a regular contract just wouldn't make
sense.

I'll have to take another look.

~~~
FnF_VE
Oops, my bad, looks like My T-Mobile is only available in Hungarian. If you're
adventurous you could try using it with Chrome and automatically translating
it. It's still better to call them tough, especially since the English IVR is
(or was a few years ago) very basic, so you can connect to someone really
fast. Also, the person who takes your call is probably confident and
comfortable talking in English, unlike in stores where you get to whoever is
free atm.

~~~
Vivtek
Köszönöm szépen, de nem minden amcsi tehetetlen a nyelvekkel.

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kayoone
Its not really as bad as this article claims.

\- In my city (not that large, about 200k residents), i have access to
16-50Mbit DSL connections or cable connections of up to 150 MBit/s (uncapped).
Its the same in many other bigger cities

\- i hardly know anyone who cannot get some type of broadband. My mom lives in
a VERY rural area (one neighbour and then a half a mile of NOTHING) and she
still gets 3Mbits DSL, not great but ok.

\- the situation in the US is even worse, still alot of people on dialup in
rural areas

\- traffic caps are a step backwards i agree, but its just one ISP doing this
right now and there are many other countries where this is common practice as
well

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raverbashing
At the same time that I think it's important to complain, the post seems too
much like a spoiled complaint.

"Don't move your startup there"? Is the poster aware that several startups
work with internet worse than that? Internet quality is one important factor,
but it is not the only one. I'd even say there are more important factors.

Complains about D-Telekom but offers no alternative? (and that's why
government monopolies are BS)

Disclaimer: I may be moving to Germany in a couple of weeks so I may still
regret this post

~~~
walshemj
A serious start up should not be using consumer grade DSL lines.

~~~
kybernetyk
It's not about what lines your startup uses in the office. It's about what
lines your customers have available to them.

Try getting something like a video streaming service running if your main
consumer base has a traffic limit of several gigabytes a month.

~~~
walshemj
True but thats a separate issue maybe you need to ask your MEP why they cut
the budget for BB rollout to rural areas in the EU - But didn't cut the CAP
subsidy for farmers

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EvaK_de
Badly written article, lacking improtant facts and misrepresenting things
(e.g. there is not just Telekom in Germany...) just to finally go all
alarmist. :/

~~~
sgift
In many regions there _is_ only the Telekom. Germany is not only Munich,
Koeln, Berlin, Hamburg and Frankfurt. Many of my friends who do not live in a
city have exactly the "choice" between Telekom or nothing.

~~~
mars
Thats not correct as other providers are leasing the infrastructure from DT.
So you have a choice almost everywhere.

~~~
mars
and cable is also available almost everywhere.

~~~
sgift
Almost anywhere besides my place of living (which happens to be Munich, but we
have alternatives here) or big parts of eastern Germany (where friends of mine
live) or various rural parts of Bavaria (where parts of my family live) and so
on.

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shell0x
I had exactly the same experience when I still lived in Germany. I lived in a
rural area and the fastest internet connection was DSL 1000. It wasn't
possible to watch youtube videos fluently, software upgrades took ages and
video calls were a pain.

~~~
thomasjames
As an American living and working in Germany as an engineer for the past year
or so (in a large city, at that), this really shocked me actually. I thought
that maybe my landlady was cheap, but it turned out there were actually
virtually no better options available. It seemed kind of out of phase with the
image Germany tries to project. So many other utilities and services here are
really much better than their counterparts in the States. This was kind of a
shock.

~~~
_dmd
why not use <http://www.kabeldeutschland.de/>? their service is available in
most rural areas and goes up to 100Mb/s. i am actually surprised the author
doesn't even mention them...

~~~
mars
Kabel Deutschland is throttling as well. Unity media just revealed that they
dont have any plans to do so. They also off 128 mbit for 60 eur per month.

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rwmj
It's depressing that many governments simply don't understand that providing
high speed cheap internet should be the number 1 priority for encouraging
growth in technology sectors.

~~~
EvaK_de
The German government DOES understand this and has already announced to
Telekom that they will thoroughly investigate the plans, implying that they
may find a way to prevent this.

~~~
luckystarr
The German government just talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. They will
rely on voluntary agreements of the Telekom and this will be it.

The current government just don't care about the net, acts even hostile
against it.

They could just issue a mandate in the kind of "every citizen shall have 6MBit
and no less" like they did with ISDN back in the 90s, but I don't think this
will ever happen with CDU/CSU/FDP.

------
dorznak
Population density is a problem in Germany. In contrast to, for example France
(?), the state does not nearly enough to bring internet to the countryside.

Broadband access is defined as 380kbit/s and customer service is terrible.

By the way: T-Mobile is part of "Telekom".

But if you choose the right street in the right city, getting 100mbit for
50euros (flatrate) is not a problem.

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sergiosgc
Shocking! I had no idea... It does not fit Germany's image. Portugal has most
cities covered with fiber, at prices of around 30eur/month for 50mbps and
about 40eur/month for 100mbps. Smaller cities are covered with coaxial cable,
with last miles at 30mbps. Only in remote areas do you get stuck with ADSL
(speed varies wildly with distance to POP). No traffic capping, and I'd wager
the first provider that introduces capping will disappear from the market.
ISDN is not common at all for individuals.

I guess the big difference here is that monopoly regulation went rather well.
Many providers appeared in the late nineties, protected by laws mandating that
Portugal Telecom rented last mile loops. Nowadays, the market, while not
perfect, is competitive enough.

(fiber and coaxial networks are private, these are not the public debts you
are looking for ;-)

~~~
walshemj
Oh German telecoms in the DBP days was always very much you get what you are
given citizen.

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corporalagumbo
Germans love complaining. It's the national addiction.

~~~
sgift
That may be the reason we enjoy such a high standard of living (in most areas)
- Progress depends on dissatisfaction with the status quo and complaining is
the most visible form of dissatisfaction.

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mrkmcknz
I thought I had it bad with 3mb/s, perhaps that's because one mile down the
road fiber means speeds of 120mb/s for roundabout the same price.

