
The preachers getting rich from poor Americans - sohkamyung
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47675301
======
9nGQluzmnq3M
This isn't limited to the US either, City Harvest Church in Singapore is a
great example of the prosperity gospel in action elsewhere. S$50 million
(US$36m) of donations were siphoned from the church, of which half went into
attempting to launch the pastor's wife into pop stardom, including this
distinctly un-churchy video:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSZQH_c9jOU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSZQH_c9jOU)

(Yes, that is Wyclef Jean; he was paid almost $2m to produce the song.)

More:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Harvest_Church_Criminal_B...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Harvest_Church_Criminal_Breach_of_Trust_Case)

~~~
wahern
It's an issue with the Charismatic Movement, which is particularly strong
among Evangelicalism but hardly limited to it. It promotes a cult of
personality, or rather numerous cults of personality.

Both Catholicism (even with the pope) and traditional Protestantism have
mechanisms to resist this. Catholicism resists it because clericalism pushes
back against cults of the person of the pope specifically (notice the
incessant factional backstabbing), but also because the parish priest is more
a functionary of rites than anything else--sermons in Catholic churches are
generally brief. Protestant denominations like Presbyterianism, Methodism, and
Lutheranism maintain (at least nominally) the Catholic tradition of apostolic
succession and a system of Presbyters and Bishops, which diffuses theological
power structurally. Notably Anabaptists and Pentecostalism discard these
structures almost entirely, so no coincidence that they're more susceptible to
cults of personalities.

I grew up Catholic in a small southern town. There was one Catholic church
among dozens (if not a hundred plus) protestant churches; it was mostly
attended by military families. I remember the parish priest (who was my
confirmation sponsor as I had no family or close Catholic family friends to
sponsor me) complaining that the community, including parishioners, gossiped
that he wasn't godly enough. He drove around in a Cadillac and drank
(moderately). What the community didn't know was that he was pretty much the
only pastor who personally volunteered at local charities unaffiliated with
our church, in addition to the work he did for the church's own programs. But
he never made it a point to inform people of this because he did it on his
personal time--just like he bought his Cadillac using his clerical stipend and
drank on his own time. He refused to advertise this on principle. He railed
against the cults of personality of local churchgoers (including his own
parishioners) and of local churches. Their priorities were all screwed up.
Since then American Catholicism specifically and Roman Catholicism globally
has increasingly shifted in this troubling direction, in tandem with
Christianity more generally.

Anyhow, to reiterate, it's not just a problem with Baptists or Pentecostalism,
nor do all Baptist and Pentecostal churches suffer from the problem. But
there's an interplay between doctrine and institutional structure. People will
readily admit it when discussing how the Roman Catholic hierarchy protected
child rapists; but they refuse to see the downsides to excessively
decentralized institutions that put too much unchecked power and influence in
the hands of local leaders.

The U.S. has exported the problem globally because it's exported the
Charismatic Movement.

~~~
ultrarunner
I found this comment very interesting. Can you give an example of a cult of
personality within the anabaptist movement?

~~~
wahern
One piece of evidence: if you look at this Wikipedia list of megachurches,
Baptist-affiliated (and especially Southern Baptist Convention-affiliated)
churches are second only to so-called non-denominational:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megachurches_in_the_Un...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megachurches_in_the_United_States)

Many of the others, including Calvary and many non-denominational ones, are
largely derivative of Anabaptist theology--e.g. practice adult baptism.
Pentacostalism originally drew most of its adherents from Baptist churches.
Ancedotally, where I grew up people readily migrated between Baptist and
Pentacostal churches. Interestingly, there was also a group of Catholic
parishioners at my church who practiced--or I guess I should say experienced--
speaking in tongues.

More to your point, famous televangelists like Billy Graham were Baptist. Oral
Roberts identified as a Baptist early on, and went to a Baptist seminary
school. Likewise for Pat Robertson. Baptists really seemed to dominate the
scene during the latter part of the 20th century when the rise of the
megachurches began, though they were preceded and succeeded by iconic
personalities of different denominations. Nobody really remembers the ones
that preceded them, like the Roman Catholic Bishop for whom the word
televangelist was supposedly originally coined, exactly because the shift
toward cults of personality hadn't become widespread.

I'm neither a scholar of theology nor sociology, but I don't think this is all
coincidental.

Part of it is likely that the Second Great Awakening
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening))
was largely dominated by Baptist and Methodist churches and especially
charismatic (small 'c') pastors who at least nominally adhered to those
theologies. IME, many modern American Methodist churches adhere to a
significantly different theology than traditional Methodism, in many respects
akin to Anabaptism. Methodism spread globally primarily through British
colonies. IIRC, Methodism was the dominate Christian denomination in Singapore
and Malaysia, and I'm pretty sure you could trace import of the Charismatic
Movement into Singapore through the Methodist communities.

The critical element of Anabaptism isn't theological, per se, but the (lack
of) institutional and community structures. Mennonites are Anabaptists but you
don't find Mennonite megachurches or televangelists because the structures
that Anabaptism removed were replaced with other communal structures. I do
know a Mennonite who, with a Methodist spouse (whose father is a Methodist
Bishop), attend an evangelical church--either Baptist-affiliated or non-
denominational. It's a relatively easy transition from a religious
perspective.

------
astura
They are extremely difficult to kill without government regulations, James
Randi exposed Peter Popoff (80s televangelist faith healer) as a straight up
100% fraud and that didn't seem to really hurt him much if at all in the long
run.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff)

>He went bankrupt the next year, but made a comeback in the late 1990s.
Beginning in the mid-2000s, Popoff bought TV time to promote "Miracle Spring
Water" on late-night infomercials, and referred to himself as a prophet.[2]
Business Insider remarked, "No matter how many times his claims are debunked,
he seems to bounce back with another version of the same old scam."[3]

>Popoff was collecting almost $4 million per year in the late 1980s, according
to Randi.[41] In 2003, his ministry received over $9.6 million, and in 2005,
over $23 million. In that year, he and his wife were paid a combined salary of
nearly $1 million, while two of his children received over $180,000 each.[42]
Financial data is not available for Popoff's ministry since 2005 because Peter
Popoff Ministries changed from a for-profit business to a religious
organization in 2006, making it tax-exempt.[40] Popoff purchased a home in
Bradbury, California, for $4.5 million in 2007.[43] He drives a Porsche and a
Mercedes-Benz.[44]

------
symplee
> [H]e dresses in a suit, pulls out a Bible and urges viewers to pledge a very
> specific amount of money. "Don't delay, don't delay," he urges, calmly but
> emphatically ... drawing in viewers who ... are desperate for change.

Can you imagine if this kind of stunt were pulled in the secular sphere? An
aspiring leader dressed up in a suit, urging viewers to raise a specific
amount of money. "Don't delay, donate today!" drawing in viewers desperate for
change.

Wait a second...

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
Ha. I see what you're getting at. It's a little different because politicians
actually do have the power to change things. Proof by existence: before there
was no ACA, now there is an ACA.

While being a member of a church can probably improve your life in some ways
-- a built in community of like-minded people -- it won't directly fix your
problems in a way that another community can't. And if you're not using church
for community, there is really very little chance that donating will do
anything positive for you. At least, if it did, you'd think someone would find
evidence of the same.

~~~
bduerst
Are you saying that organized religion doesn't have the power to influence
change? Politicians do not have a monopoly on impact, in fact, I would say
that they have become quite inefficient at it.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
At least in the United States, organized religion is officially supposed to be
apolitical, at least if the church is organized as a 501(c)-3. So if you're
asking whether the church can influence social policy, the answer is obviously
yes, but officially it is meant to be "no." And in any case, donations are not
really connected to that process.

But if you're asking whether churches do good directly, then the answer is
obviously yes. The question is one of degrees. I believe that most church
income is spent on church matters (salaries for ministers, staff, rent,
evangelism, programs, etc.), and a relatively small amount of it goes to
actual charity -- although this belief is a supposition of mine, so I am open
to being corrected. In light of this belief, no, I don't think churches in
practice can effect systemic changes in the well-being of non-employees.
Certainly not nearly to the extent that the government has that capability.

~~~
bduerst
Churches file separate articles of organization for political donations, and
members donate to those separately purposefully for influencing change.

------
Fezzik
There’s a great documentary called Marjoe (a conjugate of Mary and Joseph)
about how scammy some of these people are. It won Best Picture in 1972:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe).

------
acomjean
It really is a thing.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology)

------
rajeshp1986
It is not just limited to US. You will be surprised how much of that money
goes back to forced conversions in countries like India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka
etc. In India, the state of Nagaland has 90% christian population. They
destroyed the local cultures and traditions.

~~~
geowwy
Local traditions like headhunting?

The Naga were headhunters before converting to Christianity, National
Geographic has a clip about it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLs-
UoqzLlU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLs-UoqzLlU)

~~~
rajeshp1986
Nagaland has more than 16 major tribes and there are 20 minor tribes. Not all
them practice this.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naga_people#Encounter_with_oth...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naga_people#Encounter_with_others)

Also, the headhunting was a resistance by the tribals to christian
missionaries.

~~~
talonx
>>Also, the headhunting was a resistance by the tribals to christian
missionaries.

Source please? (The Wikipedia article does not say this).

------
OldFatCactus
I grew up near the Falwell family's sphere of influence and I'm still stunned
at the extent of their deceit. They effectively control a mid-tier city, a
large private Christian university, and a huge voting bloc of conservative
Christians

------
black6
It's not just televangelists; the local variety of parson is just as
exploitative. I grew up in the Mississippi Delta—every "Reverend" drives
around in a Cadillac while most of his congregation struggles to make ends
meet. These same Reverends preach on the religious benefits of daily fasting
while the children of their congregations get their one square meal of the day
at school. </anecdote>

~~~
sonnyblarney
For some data points:

"When it comes to clergy, new Catholic priests, which includes bishops, can
expect a salary somewhere in the mid-$20,000 range, with median salaries
varying slightly depending on geography. The highest median salary for a new
priest is in the Midwest, at $29,856, while the lowest median salary, $24,960,
is found in the Central region, which spans from Minnesota to Texas. The
maximum salary for priests ranges from $29,744 in the West region to $44,417
in the Midwest."

Now this is Catholicism, so it's going to be regimented, along with mainline
protestant ministries.

But even for the more 'American flavours' of Christianity, I suggest the
average income is probably lower.

I'd consider these hustlers about the same level of the vast number of people
who hustle products on their Instagram accounts which is to say some do very
well, most don't.

Oddly, I'm not sure how much authenticity and revenue correlate for this, or
any other field of service. It's the 'marketers' that tend to win.

[1] [https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/11/how-much-
do...](https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/08/11/how-much-do-catholic-
priests-and-their-lay-colleagues-make-new-report-gives)

~~~
hackerpacker
but everything included, so that is basically 35k, tax free, or in a lower tax
bracket since so much of the compensation is non monetary, purely disposable.

edit, this says the median is 45k [https://work.chron.com/much-catholic-
priests-paid-12915.html](https://work.chron.com/much-catholic-priests-
paid-12915.html)

~~~
sb057
Bear in mind that while church organizations don't pay taxes, individual
employees (including priests) do still pay income tax.

------
lbotos
My favorite new instagram is
[https://www.instagram.com/preachersnsneakers/](https://www.instagram.com/preachersnsneakers/)

Clearly a quest to reach "new audiences" but it gives me a good chuckle.

------
RickJWagner
Crooked preachers have been around for a long, long time.

The bar to entry is now lower, scammers don't even have to learn to talk
smoothly or quote scripture. Anyone that can dream up a sympathetic story can
be a GoFundMe scammer.

------
ykevinator
There is little hope for under educated people. It's weird that educated
people still believe in the supernatural.

------
aetherspawn
What happened to “receive free, give free”? (Matthew 10:8)

------
cgoecknerwald
It surprised me to read that they had been informed by John Oliver, because I
have always assumed that Oliver's reach would be rather insular because of
both its content and nature of distribution.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Indeed! Serendipity.

> In August 2015, the couple were channel-hopping in a Jacksonville motel
> room, when they caught an episode of John Oliver's satirical news show, Last
> Week Tonight. > > "I never watched John Oliver. I had never even heard of
> the guy," says Larry.

------
AFascistWorld
Smart ones profiting off of the masses, like the stock market, or just how the
whole world works.

~~~
vmurthy
You assume that the whole stock market is a zero-sum game which is patently
false. Businesses raise money , many if not all use this money to grow their
businesses and return money to shareholders via dividends / buyback. Stock
appreciation is a result of this activity. FYI , a dollar invested in S&P
index in 1926 was worth 5000+ dollars in 2014 ([http://skloff.com/growth-
of-1-dollar-investment-1926-2014/](http://skloff.com/growth-of-1-dollar-
investment-1926-2014/)). If this is profiting off the masses, I don’t know
what to say :-)

~~~
Gibbon1
There is a small army of portfolio managers that under perform index funds
year after year. Like almost all of them. And investment banks both selling
securities and betting against them at the same time.

The non zero sum part is called the real economy. Which itself is under
performing the market.

Or the current crop of tech companies which exist solely to launder negative
interest central bank credit.

~~~
vmurthy
Can you define current crop? If you think Uber , Lyft etc. you’re right. I’m
talking about stock markets as a whole. Not one or two crazy stocks

------
jstewartmobile
Good to hear that Ole Anthony and John Bloom (Joe Bob) are still at it!

------
sittingnut
why is this in hn? if it is relevant, would hn link to articles on any
selfless acts and charities by the religious(given that in reality hundreds of
millions are helped by them)? seems there is an anti christian bias in this
sort articles selected by hn; only the ones reflecting badly on christians are
allowed.

~~~
uncletaco
Google “hacker news atheism” if you want to see unflattering articles about
atheist.

Among the first page of results for me include:

“Atheism is inconsistent with the scientific method”
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445855](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445855)

“You don’t need religion to find /r/atheism obnoxious”
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19087955](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19087955)

“When atheists lack the courage of their convictions”
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18425245](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18425245)

Also cultural articles are shared and commented on like most everything else
that the community here finds interesting. Asking why this is on hacker news
is just lazy virtue signaling tbh.

