
Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won - notlob
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/08/criticizing-red-light-cameras-is-not-a-punishable-offense-oregon-concedes
======
rgbrenner
That's just insulting... the state says they acted unconstitutionally.. so
they offered him $500 -- which is just a refund of the fine he already paid --
and asked the court to dismiss the case. After he had to pay 4 years of
lawyers fees, take them to court, etc. It's just a big FU, and I have no doubt
they won't change a thing if they successfully get the court to dismiss it.

If the court allows this, then the state won. They've sent their message: pay
the fine, or we'll fight you in court for years, force you to pay thousands to
lawyers, and maybe in the end we'll give you a refund of any fine you paid if
it looks like you might win.

~~~
ajmurmann
Most annoyingly, as someone who lives in Oregon I don't want to pay for this.
I certainly want the poor guy who tried to fix something broken to be hugely
compensated. However, I want whoever did this to pay for it.

I also want then to stop focusing traffic tickets on speeding and instead fine
people who cause traffic jams by not accelerating when entering the freeway or
go unnecessary slow. But well that's of course never gonna happen and probably
most native Oregonians would be fine constantly because they drive insanely
slow...

~~~
manyxcxi
Growing up in Oregon I was always annoyed by the slow as hell left lane
campers. Having spent a half decade elsewhere and recently moving back it has
escalated from annoyance to blood boiling seething rage.

When I left Seattle, the state of WA was really making a push to get slowpokes
out of the left lane with a media campaign and instituting tickets for people
who are slowing traffic down.

I LOVE the idea.

~~~
trvlngwlbry
I've felt the same way about "slow as hell left lane campers" for years and
thought that maybe — if states never did anything to fix it — there might be a
commercial solution to fixing this.

The idea I came up with awhile ago was to build a network of motorcyclists
willing to attach a sign to the back of their bike, that reads (something
like), "You're causing traffic by being in this lane at your speed - please
move to right as soon as it's safe to do so." The motorcyclists would make
their way in front of the slow left-laner - so that the sign is visible to the
slow poke - with the hopes of persuading them to move to the right lane.

Meanwhile, also on the sign would be instructions for the other drivers out
there, who witness the value the motorcyclist provided, to send a little
micropayment electronically to the motorcyclist as a thank you.

Maybe this takes the form of a grassroots DIY movement where the motorcyclists
handle all this themselves, or maybe there's an opportunity for a company to
exist that creates the signs and facilitates the micropayments - and in return
takes a cut of each micropayment (a la Patreon).

Obviously this assumes that all this can be achieved safely and legally.
Thorough testing would have to be done on that front.

Let me know if anyone wants to kick around this idea further - even if just
for fun.

~~~
asteli
as a motorcyclist, i have another idea

get more people to ride motorcycles. an oft-cited study [1] shows that a 10%
increase in motorcycle ridership would cut time lost to traffic by 63%

1:
[http://www.acem.eu/images/stories/doc/pressreleases/2011/PTW...](http://www.acem.eu/images/stories/doc/pressreleases/2011/PTW_Belgium_Study_FEBIAC_ENG.PDF)

~~~
russh
I wonder how much this would decrease the wait times for donated organs?

------
FiatLuxDave
A number of people in this thread are accepting the position that "engineer"
is defined by the State of Oregon to only mean Professional Engineer. Let's do
a consistency check. Here is a job posting for an "engineer" by the State of
Oregon, which is not for a PE position:
[https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/oregon/jobs/1902737/s...](https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/oregon/jobs/1902737/software-
testing-engineer-infrastructure-support-information-systems-specialis)

For contrast, here is a job opening for the State of Oregon for a PE:
[https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/oregon/jobs/1891379/s...](https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/oregon/jobs/1891379/specifications-
engineer-with-telecommuting-option-professional-engineer-1-od)

------
tonylemesmer
I hate hearing tales of how public bodies waste taxpayers money fighting cases
like this instead of focussing on the actual issues themselves. Even if the
public body had done nothing in this case it would have been better than suing
him.

~~~
TomK32
Admitting failure is extremely hard for any human, wether it is such cases or
infrastructure projects that took decades of planning and discussion: no one
wants to admit that they followed the wrong path.

~~~
islanderfun
I can't agree with this more. It really holds us back (since the beginning).
From school boards, local government, and even HOAs. Humans are so prideful,
they rather find ways to defend their wrong decision than fix the underlying
issue.

~~~
lovich
I don't know that it's all pride. I don't have much of a problem admitting
mistakes amongst friends and most co-workers, but I've definitely worked with
a few people you could never admit failure to. They were either the type of
people who felt everything needed to have someone to blame and who would be
punished for the failure, or people who could use any mistake as ammunition in
office politics.

The government here may have refused to back down out of fear of setting a
precedent that would be used in other cases where they were actually in the
right

~~~
TomK32
Your last sentence just makes the worst excuse ever. Doing wrong to be able to
do right in other cases...

~~~
lovich
Oh it's not an excuse for what they did at all. I was just pointing out that
pride might not be why they did this

------
wonderwonder
This is a pretty great way to stifle innovation and one of the most blatantly
authoritarian programs I have seen. They are essentially saying that no one is
allowed to advance technology within their state unless they adhere to their
arbitrary rules including passing a test and "a work record of four years or
more of technical work or engineering work under the supervision and control
of a professional engineer." 4 years before you are even allowed to publicly
discuss engineering! Last time I checked math and physics work the same
regardless on an internship.

~~~
ataturk
It's how totalitarians roll. You can't have upward mobility, you can't have a
level playing field where people can take on the state and win with common
sense. We need that, but it leaves the autocrats out of a job.

------
xigency
I'm interested in this because I know PE exams exist and there are licensing
bodies for engineers. But what I've heard from most people is that they are a
waste of time and money for someone holding an engineering degree unless you
are the person who rubber stamps things at the end.

Does someone who knows more about professional engineering know if this law in
Oregon is uncommon?

Beyond a free speech argument, it seems like the law is a bit flawed
considering other related fields like science, math, and software may not have
licensing.

Also, it goes as far as saying someone can't put "engineer" on their resume
with solely a degree. Seems very far off the norm.

~~~
kejaed
It is the same thing in Canada. "Engineer" is a protected term so that people
can trust that when someone calls themselves an engineer, or does "engineering
work", offering services to the public, they can trust that means something.

One difference is that the profession is 'Self Regulating', meaning
Professional Engineers Ontario is a non-governmental body made up of
Professional Engineers that is trusted by the government to manage the
profession. The Quebec version of this organization, Ordre des ingénieurs du
Québec, was put under "trusteeship of the provincial government" when the
government lost that trust after some infrastructure accidents [0].

The question of what constitutes "engineering work" is well defined in the
Professional Engineers Act (Ontario) and would probably cover a lot of what
you mentioned as 'science, math, software' not having licensing. So according
to Professional Engineers Ontario, some of the types of work that those types
of people could produce could require the sign-off of a Professional Engineer
if it falls under the definition of "engineering work" by the PEO:

[1] _Under the Professional Engineers Act, the “practice of professional
engineering” means “any act of planning, designing, composing, evaluating,
advising, reporting, directing or supervising that requires the application of
engineering principles and concerns the safeguarding of life, health,
property, economic interests, the public welfare or the environment, or the
managing of any such act”._

 _To determine whether you are practising professional engineering, ask
yourself three questions:_

 _Are you planning, designing, composing, evaluating, advising, reporting,
directing or supervising, or managing any of these acts?_ _Are engineering
principles required to carry out the act?_ _Does the act concern the
safeguarding of life, health, property, economic interests, the public welfare
or the environment?_

As a licensed engineer in Ontario, I'm to display my licence at my place of
work. I also keep another image close by to make sure we all remember not to
take ourselves too seriously.

[https://imgur.com/Rd3XFyy](https://imgur.com/Rd3XFyy)

[0] [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-engineers-
regu...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-engineers-regulate-
themselves-1.3667466) [1]
[http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php?ci_id=1848&la_id=1](http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php?ci_id=1848&la_id=1)

~~~
xigency
The problem I see with that law, and I believe it is possibly the same issue
in the U.S. with many state laws is that, as well defined as it is, if I mix
and match the terms from the definition then someone with an economics degree
from an engineering school needs a professional license to do their own
taxes...

"The practice of professional engineering means... any act of evaluating that
requires application of engineering principles... and concerns economic
interests."

It's not quite a bullet-proof concept. I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court is going
to take this issue on at the time. But if I had a background in engineering
and law and considered these laws in context, they seem a bit stupid. Most
B.S. engineering graduates aren't professionally licensed but obviously are
qualified to work and designate themselves as some type of engineer, at least
on LinkedIn.

In any case, it seems the term to be protected is "Professional Engineer" or
"Licensed Engineer" and not the generic title itself, and the scope should be
limited by specifying what jobs require that license instead of a blanket
statement. For example, "all bridges on public roads require work to be
certified by a professional licensed engineer."

Edit:

In the earlier discussion, there was some debate about whether measuring the
hypotenuse of a triangle is legal in public in Oregon.

------
program_whiz
This is a clear case of using "well intentioned" laws to silence free speech.
This supports the libertarian idea that we should reduce the size of
government and regulation if possible, because given long enough and enough
bureaucrats, fallible humans will exploit whatever mechanisms are available to
them. People don't like criticism, especially when the criticism is of their
work/policies and potentially threatens their livelihood, so giving them a way
to easily stop critics is a bad idea.

~~~
jgh
> This supports the libertarian idea that we should reduce the size of
> government and regulation if possible, because given long enough and enough
> bureaucrats, fallible humans will exploit whatever mechanisms are available
> to them

OTOH a perfectly libertarian system is ripe for the exploitation of fallible
humans. Anyway there's a case for moderation here. I don't think shrinking the
government to some ineffectual, microscopic or nonexistent size will
accomplish what libertarians would hope for. Likewise having an omnipresent
behemoth that controls every aspect of life isn't good either.

~~~
chrisdbaldwin
I think it's about time we stop throwing the baby out with the bath water when
libertarian ideology comes up.

Looking at it simply, is there a possible set of rules that reduces waste,
increases efficiency of constrained resources, and reduce exploitation from
within the system? Libertarian ideologues suggest that there exists such a set
of such rules, and it's a dramatically smaller set than we currently have. In
order to move towards that smaller ideal set, we need a ideological shift in
America -- we need to admit we suck. We suck at things, and some things that
we think are okay now will suck soon. American culture sells the opposite:
you're great, and it's poisonous. We need to acknowledge when others are doing
better than us. I think we currently suck at it because the system is working
as intended: corruption for sale. I don't think that's a sustainable system
for the American people. It's about time we upgraded our "infrastructure."

We need to realign our government, giving it back to those that they are
supposed to be serving in the first place: the citizens. Let's start by
acknowledging that Libertarians are trying to free us from that which the
government has no business being involved, thus reducing waste, increasing the
efficiency of constraints, and reducing opportunity for exploitation. It is
not about trying to create loop holes for exploitation. It's about shifting
the meta away from corruption.

------
takk309
I have been following this story for quite some time and I would like to point
a major item that this article misled the reader about. First off, the State
Board did not censor what he was saying, they asked him to stop representing
himself as an engineer. Järlström initially sent his analysis to the State
Board with a letter in-which he referred to himself as an engineer. The Board
Responded by requesting that he refrain from calling himself an engineer.
After Järlström continued to call himself an engineer, the Board decided to
fine him.

Järlström is and was allowed to discuss his analysis all he wanted, however,
he is not allowed to call himself an engineer in such a was as to imply that
he is a traffic or transportation engineer.

Full disclosure, I am a registered professional traffic engineer. As such, I
feel that registration is very important and serves to protect the public at
large from people producing work with little to no relevant experience.

Here is an article that was previously posted on HN which includes many of the
documents involved in this case.
[https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/vvapy4/man-
fined-...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/vvapy4/man-fined-
dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government)

~~~
valuearb
Stop trying to use your "registered professional traffic engineer" title as a
labor monopoly. It doesn't even mean you are good at your job.

~~~
takk309
It is not meant to create a labor monopoly any more than a medical doctors
licence. Registration as an engineer is so that one can prove that they have
the requisite knowledge and competency to perform the work required of them.
Without registration, what legal assurances would you have that the engineer
is capable of his job?

~~~
whatthesmack
The same as any other job, like mine as a Site Reliability Engineer? A resume,
a degree that can be validated, experience and knowledge that demonstrate
competence, references, reputation, etc. Why does the state need to be the
official signer-off on who can do a certain job?

------
skadamou
The whole business of red light cameras is pretty dubious to begin with. It
seems more like a tool local municipalities use to tax through traffic rather
than a means of protecting public safety.

[https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2013/08/13/211723717...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2013/08/13/211723717/a-dilemma-zone-for-red-light-cameras-safety-vs-cash)

~~~
DoubleGlazing
I live in Ireland and recently my wife got a speeding ticket having supposedly
been caught by a mobile speed detector van. She was pretty certain that she
hadn't been speeding as she knows the particular stretch of road is notorious
for hidden speed traps.

The court summons photo had the GPS co-ordinates of the vans location embedded
in the corner. So I types them in to Google Maps and it supposedly showed that
the van was 50 meters away from the road in a farmers field. I tried again
with other mapping sources including Ordnance Survey Ireland - all produced
the same result.

So our case was simple, if the GPS in the van was so inaccurate then that
called in to question the accuracy of the rest of the attached equipment -
including the speed detection gear.

So I built up a portfolio of documents from both government, commercial and
academic sources stating that the GPS equipment in the van should have been
more accurate - to at least 5m and ideally more than that. I was also able to
call upon my experience having worked on various GIS systems and on the
development of lone worker emergency beacons in the past.

When I spoke for my wife in court the prosecutor asked me if I was was a
certified GPS engineer. I said that I didn't believe such a title existed and
that I was offering evidence based on my professional experience. But that was
enough to sway the judge who said that unless I had someone from "GPS" [sic]
with me than my evidence counted for nothing.

Fair play to the guy in the article for putting up a fight.

~~~
pwg
If you have to do this again at any point, you will likely find more success
if you attack the accuracy of the speed measuring equipment, and specifically
any traceable calibration of that equipment. Calling into question the
accuracy of the GPS location fix in the photo did not directly say anything
about the speed measuring device. This is because the speed measurement device
was very likely not the GPS locator unit that stamped the photo. The speed
measuring device was likely an independent radar or laser unit. The
prosecution should bring with them proof that the unit had been field tested
that day to verify correct functioning andd field accuracy, and as well should
bring the calibration evidence showing professional calibration of the speed
measurement device. But unless you question the speed measurement device
itself, they have no reason to say much about the calibration status of the
device. And since most defendants argue simply "I wasn't speeding" the
prosecutors sometimes get lazy and leave the calibration documentation behind.
If you question the calibration and they don't have the requisite evidence,
then you've got something you can use to convince the judge to rule in your
favor.

~~~
DoubleGlazing
The prosecuting Garda Sargeant could not provide a calibration certificate for
the speed detector, but the judge still didn't care. It was just a production
line

------
Mtinie
For additional reference, here's a previous discussion on HN about this case,
linked to a previous Vice Motherboard article:

"Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the
Gov't" (April 26, 2017 - 267 comments)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512)

------
ptero
Kudos to the engineer who decided to fight the state on its ridiculous claim.
I wonder if there is anything that can be done to help avoid a repeat? It is
possible for the bureaucrat(s) responsible for original decision to sue to be
fired or at least demoted? If so, what would it take (media coverage, letters
to lawmakers, something else)?

I am glad the results were the way they were, but without slapping someone's
hand for this it will happen again next time.

------
eranation
So companies who have an opening for a "Software Engineer" or people having
resumes with "Software Engineer" titles (Which is prettty common, I mean my
resume has it, most of my peers call themselves Software Engineer / SDE and
some prominent people recommend this title as a mean of improving your chances
to be hired, [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
pro...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)
).

All are basically violating the law? (except those who actually took the
official PE exam, which apparently is available for computer science since
2013 -
[https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/3954...](https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/39541/can-
software-engineers-become-certified-professional-engineers-pe) )

Basically in states like Oregon, the officials can just scan linkedin, anyone
who lives in the state and has Software Engineer in their title and is not a
licenced engineer, can be forced to pay a $500 fine?

Edit: I actually went and did the search, there are 18,101 software engineer
titles in Oregon in LinkedIn, here's an easy $9 million for the state in
fines.

My assumption that if this gets to court, since the colloquial term for a
software programmer / developer is nowadays "Software Engineer" and since
there was no official way to become a certified "computer science" engineer
prior to 2013, this will be hopefully thrown out the window.

------
0x445442
Photo traffic tickets are just another tool for those with a monopoly on force
to steal money from people. Fortunately, in Arizona the state is still
required to serve in person in order for the ticket to be binding. My wife and
I have got for or five of these tickets in the mail over the years. We just
throw them in the trash.

~~~
leesalminen
> Fortunately, in Arizona the state is still required to serve in person in
> order for the ticket to be binding.

Colorado as well.

> We just throw them in the trash.

This worked once for me. The second time, an off duty Sheriff's Deputy came to
my house and served me.

~~~
0x445442
That happened to us once I think but it was not law enforcement. They tried to
have someone serve us in the evening. We just didn't answer the door

~~~
leesalminen
Interesting...the guy flashed some kind of metal, cop looking badge. They do
give badges to lots of people these days other than police/sheriff so I guess
it could've been any .gov thug.

------
larrydag
This might actually be a bigger deal than people realize. This sets a
precedence of being able to submit engineering publications and work without
being licensed. Sure you can't still perform commercial or public engineering
works unless licensed but you can speak publicly on technical matters.

~~~
jostmey
So what? I don't want to live in a society governed by titles. Real talent
doesn't need to rely on titles. I have titles but so what?

~~~
larrydag
I wasn't speaking of titles. I was speaking of submitting technical work on
engineering related ideas. Typically this is highly regulated under U.S. state
laws.

~~~
mindslight
The generally-good requirement that plans are stamped by a " _Professional
Engineer_ " is required by public AHJs/codes and private regulations (eg
insurance), and is not under dispute here. Meanwhile much engineering work is
not under this regime, but checked by market demand and testing (eg
software/electronic).

As an Electrical Engineer that has little interest in power systems and isn't
looking to rewire other people's houses for money, I have very little use for
a PE. I still have the basic right, along with everyone else (regardless of
education), to make technical judgments of _any_ situation. How these
judgments are valued can (and should) be questioned, but our right to speak
them cannot.

These laws you speak of are a mix of unenforced, unenforceable,
unconstitutional, and unconscionable. Their actual effects are constrained
between nothing (ie most people accept the concept of free speech) and the
harmful thuggish behavior described in the article.

~~~
someguydave
<i>These laws you speak of are a mix of unenforced, unenforceable,
unconstitutional, and unconscionable.</i>

Would you say the same thing about doctor licensing laws?

~~~
mindslight
Yes, if those laws were able/used to silence PhDs using the title Doctor
and/or nurses giving informal friendly diagnoses.

The proper test is _fraud_ , not _trademark_ or _unauthorized subject matter_.

~~~
someguydave
Are you using your own common sense for determining the boundaries of legal
doctoring or are you using your State's statues?

------
CalChris
There is a fearful symmetry between the inaccurate red light camera and
misapplication of the Professional Engineer Registration Act in violation of
Järlström’s free speech rights.

The cameras were sold like opioids to cities promising revenues and 'safety'.
I'd like to know who the elected officials who signed up for these were.

They're mostly gone in the Bay Area but they still exist up in Redding. So CA
hasn't banned them statewide.

------
sandermvanvliet
Out of curiosity (and not really related to the article) but I’m kind of
surprised to hear there is a formula for calculating how long(?) yellow lights
are on and that it relates to a red light camera. AFAIK those cameras are
hooked into the control system and only activate when the light is red, which
seems like a pretty binary decision. Can someone shed some light on this?

~~~
tialaramex
The yellow light provides a period when drivers know the light is going to go
red soon, all else being equal this light should be set to stay on for just
long enough for drivers in properly maintained cars, who drive at legal
speeds, to see it and all either come to a stop or pass the intersection
before the light turns red. Typically formulas care about the allowed speed of
cars, the expected braking capability of a car that's allowed on the road, the
gradient (down hill it's hard to stop quickly!) and other factors, plus the
size of the junction (a huge junction can't change as quickly because it takes
time to cross the junction).

That is, Sally is doing 40mph in a 40mph zone, she sees the light turn yellow,
and she's very close to the junction so she just keeps going, everything is
fine. Bob is doing 25mph in a 55mph zone, he's some distance from the lights,
they turn yellow, Bob stops normally as the lights turn red.

With red light cameras providing revenue there is an incentive to cut that
time too short. Now Sally finds the light turned red earlier and she got a
ticket. So next time Sally won't make that mistake, as soon as the light goes
yellow she slams on the anchors, and somebody goes straight in the back of her
- there's a traffic accident even though we invented these lights to reduce
accidents. Oops.

Now a _good_ government would resist the temptation. They would set the
formula to reduce crashes. But money is very tempting. Shaving a second off
the time, getting $1M of extra revenue and oops smashing up a thousand
people's cars, that's a good deal so long as you aren't paying for all those
car repairs...

~~~
mulmen
In the age of big data optimizing for the right value will be our greatest
challenge.

~~~
cr0sh
The question becomes "what is the right value?"

Is it "optimise for most money and fewest/no crashes"?

Or is it "optimise for fewest accidents"?

I can almost guarantee it will be the first option that is selected.

~~~
mulmen
Yes I should have phrased that as "In the age of big data selecting the value
to optimize will be our greatest challenge."

------
wehadfun
A guy around here got rid of the things

[https://www.dallasnews.com/news/richardson/2016/07/19/richar...](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/richardson/2016/07/19/richardson-
suspends-red-light-camera-program-court-ruling)

~~~
joeax
> City officials said the cameras are a safety tool in order to prevent
> accidents at busy intersections.

When I hear something is "for my safety", I take it to mean I'm about to lose
some freedoms or some money.

------
tripzilch
Hey America, maybe you should go after people "speaking about technical
matters" on climate-change denial instead of this stupid bullshit.

It's not like you're doing anything useful with your first amendment rights
anyway. I'm 100% serious btw, selectively enforced right to free speech is
objectively _worse_. I still remember almost everybody LOUDLY and PROUDLY
proclaiming "disagree with but will defend to the death" the right for a bunch
of religious nuts to ruin gay people's fucking funeral, and all the fucking
silence and shuffling of the feet on anything that actually matters.

------
lucb1e
> a $500 fine for “unlicensed practice of engineering.”

Looking this up[1], this is phrased terribly. It's claiming some title or
degree that you don't have, that's illegal. Not "practicing engineering"
(which sounds to me like: you measured something and proposed an improvement,
which you have to do a study for to be allowed to measure and suggest to
improve it).

That "state-issued license to practice engineering" is just your degree which
allows you to wear a title.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Europe)

------
sg0
I was looking for Mats Järlström's account w.r.t this affair, because I wanted
to know more about his findings. It's here:
[http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/blogs/blog/mats-
jr...](http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/blogs/blog/mats-jrlstrm-i-am-
an-engineer)

------
squarefoot
What they wanted to silence him for is probably the risk that someone draws a
pattern linking what happened there with this:

[https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-
sho...](https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-
yellow-light-times-for-profit/)

------
joering2
Am I missing something? Isn't he eligible to recover reasonable attorney fees?

~~~
CalChris
At this point, his attorneys (the Institute for Justice) are trying to get the
law declared unconstitutional. And at this point, the state is trying to get
the court case dismissed in order to avoid getting the law declared
unconstitutional.

[http://ij.org/](http://ij.org/)

I don't think this is about attorney's fees anymore and Järlström won't be
paying them.

------
romdev
From experience, Oregon law for yellow lights says you must stop if it's safe
to do so. The duration of the yellow light is not relevant to your argument if
you get a ticket.

~~~
valuearb
You are just helping confirm the fact that Oregon is the land of dumb laws.

------
jasonkostempski
"a state law that says only state-licensed engineers can speak publicly about
technical matters."

How can this law exist inside of the United States?

------
amatecha
"We have admitted to violating Mr. Järlström’s rights" \-- looking forward to
the followup news story where he sues the state.

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exabrial
Hey guys, can we correct the title? It should be "Oregon punished man for
Engineer claim, after criticizing their red-light cameras. He fought and won".
The current title is very misleading.

~~~
peeters
I fail to see what's incorrect about the title. The fine was for publishing a
technical report about red-light cameras while not being a licensed engineer.
You're making it seem like they are unrelated events.

~~~
aidenn0
My understanding is that the fine was for referring to himself as an engineer
in communication with the government. They _also_ complained about the
publishing of the technical report, but that is not what the fine was for.

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carlhjerpe
The United States of Soviet Russia strikes again!

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En_gr_Student
I think the guy was out of line. I'm an engineer. I had to put at least a
decade of my life, 1/8 if stats are right, into freaking hard work to earn the
right to use the title, and the skill-set to not kill people while doing it.

That guy is a slap in the face to every engineer who had to work for their
credentials instead of "name it and claim it" in the name of "free speech".

This is like shouting "fire in a theater" \- it causes harm. Claiming to be an
engineer, and driving public opinion based on that false credibility, is
dangerous. Setting a precedent for it absolutely and without a single doubt
has already cost many people their lives (look at Mexico deaths from
earthquakes) and absolutely and without a doubt stages for more people to lose
life and substantial property.

If one falsely claims to be a police officer, and extorts a fine, it is a
crime. I see this as being on the same order of harm to the society.

~~~
mirceal
How is talking about this going to kill people? Does this guy get to decide
how to set the traffic cameras? He is just expressing his opinion.

\+ he wasn't trying to commit a crime, he was trying to have a discussion with
the state about their scummy practices. the "is/is not engineer" was just a
pretext to tell him to STFU. Personally I don't think that being an engineer
changes anything he said/did. If random Joe want to challenge the timing of
the yellow light sure go ahead. If this guy who has worked in another country
as an engineer does this... whoooaaaa... put the brakes on.

~~~
cname
I think the argument is something along the lines of: the public hears that an
engineer is making certain claims and then push for the laws to be changed.
Running of yellow/red lights ends up killing a lot of people. Perhaps without
this passive enforcement, more people would die.

Having read some local news about the incident, it sounds like his wife
blatantly ran a light _according to the laws of Oregon_ and he attempted to
get it thrown out using a dubious technical argument.

[http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2014/02/joseph...](http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2014/02/joseph_rose_yellow_light_beave.html)

~~~
Johnny555
_I think the argument is something along the lines of: the public hears that
an engineer is making certain claims and then push for the laws to be changed_

If laws are passed based only on the claims of any person (regardless of his
engineering certifications) and without any independent validation that's not
the fault of the person making the claim.

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kayfox
I can see how the State of Oregon would be annoyed that an unlicensed
environmental engineer would be touting his engineering credentials when
arguing with licensed civil engineers, especially since the State of Oregon
licenses engineers.

Engineering is a field where if you mess up, people may die, so just as we
license doctors, we license engineers.

~~~
ct0
Math is universally accepted across country lines.

~~~
jfk13
Don't be too confident... it was a close thing:
[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-
leg...](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-legislature-
once-pass-a-law-saying-pi-equals-3)

