
How to increase your chances of finding a hidden camera - rurban
https://sixfortwelve.wordpress.com/2019/04/06/how-to-increase-your-chances-of-finding-a-hidden-camera/
======
RileyJames
I've been helping a friend update their rental listings online this week
(airbnb, homeaway, etc), and after seeing this issue come up, I told him I
would specify that there were no cameras in the house. His response "that
make's it sound like I have camera's in the house", but I convinced him
honesty was a better policy in this regard.

But when we weren't updating the listing, we were installing all kinds of
smart home crap. There might not be any camera's, but every room has a google
hub / speaker, a thermostat sensor (which looks suspiciously like a camera,
particularly after reading this article) & wifi switches.

I don't see a need for any of this stuff. The barely find the 'problems' it
solves inconvenient. And when balanced against the privacy implications, I
have no interest in a smart home.

But I'm realising now that's going to make many Airbnb's unsuitable. Adding
the hidden camera element... it just becomes impossible. If you really care
about this issue, are you going to book an airbnb, then unplug every smart
device, check for camera's, disable them somehow, and then re-connect
everything when you leave?

~~~
fluxem
Do you also introduce yourself like:

Hi! I'm Bob, not a murderer.

Otherwise, how people will know that you haven't killed anyone?

~~~
mherdeg
No, I don't introduce myself that way - that would be crazy.

There is a popular theory that the handshake originated as a way to show your
hand wasn't holding a weapon.

I think the evidence for this history is shaky at best, but it's been repeated
because it's somehow a compelling idea -- what were people thinking many
hundreds of years ago when crime was so common that you genuinely wondered
about whether you could trust a casual acquaintance not to hurt you? What did
they do to protect themselves?

It doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder about how to present yourself as "safe"
in the deeply untrustworthy home-sharing privacy landscape where casual home
surveillance is ultra-common (and where neither landlord nor tenant knows how
much they can trust the other). I'm not sure there is a good answer and it's
not crazy to try to look for one.

~~~
hutzlibu
That sounds very unlikely.

If strangers don't trust each other they show their hands to each other. Till
today.

When you get close enough for a handshake the hand can allready hold a knive
and is close enough to hurt.

Handshake tells you more about a person after you trust them not to kill you
(right now)

------
schwank
A couple weeks back we were on vacation in Hawaii, and one night at dinner the
table of San Diegans next to us was having a rather loud and animated
conversation. It seems they had rented out their property back home on Airbnb
and they very clearly talked about not disclosing the cameras they had onsite
to the tenants.

The tenants had discovered at least the doorbell camera and covered it up, to
which the owners were not pleased and were debating calling the police on the
tenant.

We were aghast at their complete lack of knowledge regarding undisclosed video
surveillance of tenants and the violation of airbnb policy. My wife badly
wanted to interject but we let it go. We did talk about how to mitigate these
threats, made for some interesting vacation dinner conversation though.

~~~
true_religion
If the doorbell camera was facing into the outside, then I am not sure what
grounds the tenants have to complain. Hotels and apartments can and do monitor
public areas.

~~~
Teever
I'm not sure what grounds the renters have to complain about this either.

Is there some sort of law or rule obligating tenants to keeping the view of
cameras unobstructed?

~~~
true_religion
Well the camera aren't the tenants property so putting something on top of
them like tape would be simple vandalism. They can always obstruct it without
touching it.

~~~
Teever
I can't imagine that a tenant temporarily obstructing the view of a security
camera qualifies as simple vandalism in my country but maybe you live in a
different place.

If that's the case then merely standing in view of the camera would qualify as
vandalism as well because you'd be obstructing the view of what is behind you.

------
temo4ka
Relevant article: How to Find Hidden Cameras and Spy Gear [1] and HN
discussion [2].

[1] [https://www.senteltechsecurity.com/blog/post/how-to-find-
hid...](https://www.senteltechsecurity.com/blog/post/how-to-find-hidden-
cameras/) [2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18926264](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18926264)

------
feistypharit
I always run the fing app to scan the WiFi at any rental I stay at. It's neat
to see what all is connected. I assume if someone is smart enough to properly
segment the network or enable AP isolation to hide devices, they've put in the
time to do it right.

I also run a rental, and that's has lead to a creep in new smart home devices.
It came with a smart Lock and thermostat. I added a zwave card to control the
lock remotely. Added motion sensors, doors sensors, leak detectors. It is nice
to have such things when random people are staying in a place you own. I use a
wyze cam in the basement (locked to renters) to monitor for fire alarms and
keep and eye on cleaning folks. But would never install a camera while the
unit is rented. I do have one in the off season...as the home sits mostly
vacant for 6 months.

------
russfink
Besides owners, what about creeps that rent a place then leave devices behind?
This affects hotels as well. That's my big fear.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
Another option is to choose not to be afraid. If one really care, get good at
sweeping a place for cameras & remove the fear. If one is too lazy to sweep
for cameras (like me!), decide to accept there's a low, non-zero chance that
I'll get taped and move on.

"You've got a tape of me? Congratulations! Send me a copy. It's a good thing
there wasn't a camera covering all of the apartment. I had a little digestion
shenanigans going on, I'm glad there's no evidence I am the one who left that
floor. I tried to clean it up, but I didn't have any industrial chemicals."

~~~
ekovarski
Being secretly taped, esp in intimate moments, is a valid fear that many women
have. It has long term repercussions on their life esp when the videos get
shared.

I don't actively sweep rooms but I'd be lying if I didn't say I inspected
something that looked out of place when staying with the family at hotels and
rentals. When I am by myself, I am less paranoid about these issues.

~~~
JudgeWapner
a fear isn't made more urgent because a woman has it.

~~~
stordoff
No one said it was. It's a fear that men don't as often have (to the same
degree) - that doesn't make it any more, _or any less_, urgent.

~~~
Mirioron
The implication was there though. I suspect that most men simply aren't
vigilant about these issues, and so they don't fear it. I'm sure it would
bother them too.

~~~
loco5niner
You also have it backwards.

Men don't fear it as much as women, so they aren't as vigilant.

------
baldeagle
The easiest way to find a hidden camera is with a thermal sensor. You can get
a used FLIR for around $100. Everything electronic gives off heat...

~~~
kcmastrpc
Or just turn off all the lights in the room and use your iPhone camera in live
mode - hidden cameras (and their IR emitters) will light up like a Christmas
light.

~~~
ungamedplayer
Is this an iphone specific thing ? Have you tested it.

~~~
zeta0134
It's not actually. Most digital cameras pick up infrared light, especially
cheaper ones. Maybe not professional cameras, which might have an IR filter
for better color accuracy. The filters are not cheap and IR doesn't affect the
image quality all that much.

Try it out; point your TV remote at your smartphone camera and push the
buttons. You might be able to barely see the light with your eye in dark
conditions, but the blinking pattern should be bright and easy to see through
your phone.

~~~
Cthulhu_
I've tried this; you can definitely pick up the IR light with the front camera
of your phone. Rear camera has an IR filter in modern cameras or something.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
Can confirm. Just saw red light on my TV remote w/ my LG G5. Pretty
interesting!

------
nfjdjajjdj
There is no way I am staying at another Airbnb if there is a hotel.

~~~
chronogram
I don’t really see the value of AirBNB anyway. At least in Europe it takes
hours to find a nice one, then you rate them and they rate you so hardly any
rating is very accurate, the places never match exactly the description, and
you need to book well in advance to not need a credit card.

My hotel experiences, on the other hand, are usually much nicer. On arrival I
look at the maps app on my phone to find hotels near where I want to be at, I
see ratings and price ranges, I walk in and can ask to see the room, talk to
someone who’s always polite and often speaks good English, and pay with debit
card and have 0 emails or texts or accounts from anyone about my stay.

AirBNB might be nice if you want a ton of space or for long durations. This is
purely as a comparison to hotels. Does anyone have different experiences?

~~~
noja
AirBNB needs to show rating percentages, i.e. the % of people who _do_not_
leave a rating. Most people do not like to leave negative ratings.

AirBNB (Amazon too) also need to enforce normalized ratings. Another five star
review? Either adjust all ratings to an agreed average (e.g. 3 stars) or let
users "use up" their 5-star ratings allowance.

~~~
philsnow
> Either adjust all ratings to an agreed average (e.g. 3 stars) or let users
> "use up" their 5-star ratings allowance.

This doesn't take into account people who are really picky about choosing
accommodations and so only stay in listings that are worth of five stars, vs
people who are very budget conscious and only stay in listings that are worth
3 stars.

If you normalize these two people's ratings that will give the same 3-star
average rating to both marginal and great listings.

~~~
noja
Depends how you normalize doesn't it?

------
dqpb
AirBnB should require hosts explicitly list the locations of all cameras in
plain text in the description and renters should have to explicitly accept
that they consent to the surveillance

~~~
munk-a
I disagree, they should have a dedicated section for hosts to list out all
their cameras and classify them by location. Add some legal nonsense and
AirBnB could, at the very least, get all bad acting hosts via a breach of
contract if they're caught and local laws don't allow any better prosecution.

And it's absolutely to their benefit, AirBnB has enough publicity problems
without being known as a source of scummy videos.

------
AlexTWithBeard
The article is nice, but some comments look strange:

 _Your experience, and informative blog post is a strong reminder to remain
vigilant and aware._

That's... just weird?

Or it's just me being a paranoic with low empathy score?

~~~
tyingq
Notice the name of a commenter links back to their blog. It's just not-so-
subtle advertising. Post comments on popular blog posts, and maybe someone
will click through to look at your stuff. Also often automated.

------
pcmaffey
What then is the proper response upon finding a hidden camera in an airbnb?

~~~
mschuetz
Something like this:
[https://youtu.be/wyx6JDQCslE?t=133](https://youtu.be/wyx6JDQCslE?t=133)

~~~
mavdi
Just gonna add the "kinda NSFW" tag here. Hilarious nevertheless.

------
lixtra
Did any HN reader ever find a camera. I typically do a half-hearted scan but
never found anything suspicious.

~~~
matwood
Same. Much like card skimmers at ATMs and gas stations. I know they are out
there, but I've never found one.

~~~
chatmasta
Here's a hacker who found a skimmer and reverse engineered it. [0]

[0] [https://trustfoundry.net/reverse-engineering-a-discovered-
at...](https://trustfoundry.net/reverse-engineering-a-discovered-atm-skimmer/)

------
upofadown
>...or a clear substrate to see through.

Not always. An infrared filter could be used. Silicon sensors are quite
sensitive to such wavelengths. So any shiny black surface could be a camera.
Sometimes in the right light the filter might look sort of reddish.

~~~
michaelscott
If this is the infrared sensor I think you mean, you can see these if you
point a camera lens (like on your phone) at the surface; it will show up in
red. You can try this with TV remotes that use infrared.

------
trevyn
If the camera is streaming or recording video, then it is likely to be
significantly warmer than ambient; a thermal camera (they’re not super-
expensive these days) should easily reveal hotspots.

------
philip1209
You could also buy a FLIR device on Amazon (about $200). These devices give
off heat. For instance, a smoke detector with a camera would give off a lot
more heat than a normal smoke detector.

------
JudgeWapner
Amazing how seriously people take their privacy when it's AirBnB violating it,
but simply accept the systematic privacy violations done by their government.

------
sasasassy
Creepy

------
seanlinmt
Scanning isn't going to work if its an IPv6 network. I would just use
wireshark and the busy device would probably be your camera it it's on the
network.

And probably don't use an IPv6 network if you're the host unless you want to
hide a device on the network.

------
pbhjpbhj
Perhaps we should just learn to live with being watched. The corollary is we
have to learn to accept others normal human behaviours, so that images of us
scratching our arse and then sniffing our fingernails don't really seem
remarkable and aren't limiting in job prospects and such ...

Only half joking.

There's a aphorism "if life gives you storms, learn to dance in the rain". If
life gives you voyeurs learn to dance naked and not care???

~~~
bspammer
That's all well and good until they decide to blackmail you, or post the video
on the internet.

