
What unemployment? Nothing like that in United States of Software - safarimong10
http://college2startup.tumblr.com/post/9878209155/what-unemployment-nothing-like-that-in-united-states
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geebee
To become a software developer (especially the kind with a CS related degree),
you need:

-A highly analytical mindset

-The ability to handle tough math

-The ability to read dense material and process it quickly

-The mindset to persevere, test, investigate, and find obscure problems in complex systems

-The ability to see a project through to its finish

-The ability to explain complex logic and design, verbally and in writing

It also helps immensely to have

\- The ability to work well in a team, and good general social skills (the
notion that this isn't important in software development is a silly myth, it's
incredibly important)

\- The ability to complete lengthy and difficult academic programs, without
veering off into less demanding majors that give you more time to party.

\- A family or other benefactor that can fund and support you through these
academic programs (I knew a dude who tried to major in CS while working 25hrs
a week in retail. Extraordinary people can do this, but it's very difficult to
carry physics, math, cs, and a humanities elective under these circumstances.
Many smart people fail even when school is their only "job").

It makes absolutely no sense to compare a person like this to the national
average. The general unemployment rate has nothing to do with the unemployment
rate for people like this.

So is the unemployment rate actually low for software developers, or is it
simply low for all people with the traits listed above, regardless of field?
You could reasonably argue that jobs go begging in software largely because
the field is not competitive with the other professions/trades that people
with these traits have available to them.

~~~
kabdib
Disagree on "tough math". Strongly disagree.

Be analytical, practical and tenacious. Know how to abstract, design, program.
Know tools, know platforms. Know how to triage and actually ship stuff. Be
good to work with. Keep learning, constantly. Read tons of code.

But "tough math"? Honestly, haven't needed anything more than simple
statistics for most problems.

"Tough math" seems more like an ego thing. I'd watch out for that.

~~~
shoota
You're correct for general problem solving in computer science. However, in
order to get a degree from most universities you have to have taken 3 courses
in calculus, a course in linear algebra and a course in differential
equations. To most people those courses are "tough math".

~~~
nuromancer
If you are seeking a masters in CS most universities are only looking for
programming languages, computer architecture, data structures and one
algorithms course. These are the prerequisites for most courses.

~~~
shoota
That's true I'm just speaking from experience of looking at many undergraduate
computer science programs in the United States. They all generally require
some "tough math", and I think they should because that sort of analytic
thinking in solving complex mathematical problems applies directly to computer
science.

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patio11
_Don’t mention this in the software industry especially startups, the
situation is almost the complete opposite with demand for qualified engineers
more than twice the supply._

At the price startups are willing to pay, naturally. I imagine demand exceeds
supply for doctors willing to work for $30k + equity + copious free beer, too.

I know a lot of people feel that $80k or $120k for developers is quite
generous. It may well be generous, but if you can't hire someone for it, it is
_by definition_ below market. You know all those articles we've read about
structural change? Here's another structural change: the market clearing price
for engineers may soon durably transition to that of e.g. management
consultants or lawyers rather than that of e.g. HR clerks or marketing
directors.

~~~
Locke1689
I hope so, but the problem I see is that new grads (I include myself here) are
willing to work for 80k, while it's not that much of a stretch to say that the
best graduates will be almost as productive in a few years as they will be in
7 or 8 years. That doesn't, however, automatically mean a commensurate salary
increase, so developer salaries are kept perpetually lower than they should
be. How can employers and employees adapt to this bifurcated market?

~~~
tptacek
In 1994, when I first entered the job market, $80k/year was a ridiculous
number, reserved for people with unattainable-sounding skills like
"PowerBuilder". Point being: look at the trend line, not the spot price. New
grads today will accept $80k. Five years from now, if the market retains this
level of heat, will they continue to do so?

~~~
tyty
To be clear, $80k in 1994 is roughly $116k today with inflation - probably
still on the very high end of entry level.

~~~
tptacek
Entry level? $80k was for a spectacularly senior position. $35k sounds about
right for degreed entry level dev jobs in '94.

~~~
m0nastic
It's not quite equivalent, but in '98, I was thrilled when I got a job as a
network engineer for 40k (in Boston). At the time it seemed like more money
than I knew what to do with (I very quickly became much more imaginative).

~~~
cema
Boston area tends to have relatively low salaries, both compared to competing
areas (like the Silicon Valley, NYC, and Washington-Baltimore corridor) and
relative to the cost of living (real estate, primarily). The difference is not
trivial.

~~~
m0nastic
My experiences haven't found it to be that cut-and-dry:

I moved from Boston to Silicon Valley in '99, and found it was significantly
more expensive with only marginally better salary (which I was happy to accept
as we would leave at lunch and go surfing, which for me was a worthwhile
tradeoff).

I moved from SV to Washington DC in '01, and found the cost of living slightly
less, but salaries approximately the same.

I'm now in the process of moving to NYC, and the cost of living and salaries
both are a little higher (I don't really care about money though, so I'll
admit that it hasn't been a factor in my moving decision).

------
maxxxxx
In Germany there is the word "Schweinezyklus". Pig cycle. It's mostly
prevalent in engineering. It works like this: 1\. Companies complain about not
having enough qualified engineers

2\. Everybody gets told to get into engineering in college

3\. Boom crashes. Companies lay off engineers. The new engineering graduates
don't get hired and are unemployed

4\. Everybody flees engineering

5\. Back to step 1.

I think we are at the end of step 1 and 2. -

~~~
cperciva
I don't think this quite captures the situation. Companies aren't complaining
about a lack of _credentialed_ developers; they're complaining about a lack of
_competent_ developers.

In 2000 there were far more people graduating with computing degrees than in
1995; but the average quality was far far lower. The people who suddenly found
that they couldn't get jobs when the dot-com bubble burst? Most of them didn't
belong in the industry in the first place.

~~~
akeefer
I finished undergrad in 2002, and _no one_ was hiring then, even for Stanford
CS grads. No one wanted people fresh out of school because there were so many
unemployed engineers with 5+ years of experience that there was no incentive
to take someone straight out of school.

------
rdouble
It's pretty region and skill specific.

If you live somewhere outside of about 4 or 5 locations in the USA, getting a
programming job can be hard. Also, skills that are hot in a place like NYC or
Silicon Valley are often next to useless in other areas. (learning this the
hard way)

~~~
achille
Would you mind expanding on your last sentence. What was your personal
experience? I'm guessing you have Rails/NoSQL experience while the jobs at
your current market tend to be Java/Oracle type?

~~~
rdouble
Yes, that is pretty much exactly what I meant.

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pavel_lishin
A demand for workers is not the same thing as no unemployment. Plenty of
people out there with outdated skillsets.

~~~
hacknut13
But that's their point. When you have people with no jobs, that counts for the
unemployment. But even I know how difficult it is to find people to hire for
our company as I do HR for a technology firm. There is a high demand, just
shortage of people to fill the positions.

~~~
maxxxxx
I see an increasing unwillingness of companies to train people who don't have
EXACTLY the right skillset. This used be different in the 90s.

~~~
arethuza
Which, as far as I can see, has led to a vicious circle where developers will
often refuse/bitch/complain about working on something that doesn't increase
their immediate employability prospects. Not to mention CVs that quite often
have a half a page or so of solid acronyms to increase the chances of being
found by simplistic recruiting company search engines.

------
vondur
I'm sure if the economy continues its downward spiral, these software jobs
will evaporate just like many of the others.

~~~
pagekalisedown
That reminds me of how people use to think that games were recession-proof
before 2008 or so. Then the numbers came in. Quite a reality check when your
sales drop by a third in a very short amount of time. All the big publishers
took note.

------
qaexl
I'm observing some people trying to break into technology. Yes, there are
online tools available. Yes, many of them are free. One of the complaints I
hear is that the target platform you choose moves so fast.

Generalized, it means software -- the technology and the economy -- runs at a
higher tempo. In order to step into the stream, you have to first match the
new tempo.

I suspect that the rest of the economy stays in a slump because they are out-
of-phase tempo-wise with software technology ... or that the tools that drive
up the tempo of innovation in software has not made it out to the mainstream
yet. (And even if it did, it will leave people behind simply because there are
people who will refuse to impedance match).

