
The French Army Is Building Renaissance-Style Fortresses in Africa - bkohlmann
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35863/the-french-army-is-building-renaissance-style-fortresses-in-africa
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roenxi
> While the design ... appears anachronistic

Nothing anachronistic about it; this is likely an optimal design when
considering how to maximise the effective coverage of guns. This is good
design for a fortification that is meant to be held.

This design is relatively quite modern and is a direct response to the
introduction of artillery to warfare. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder#Changes_t...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder#Changes_to_fortifications)
. It is a difficult fortification to crack. In fact it has a long history of
use in colonial expeditions according to Wikipedia.

~~~
masklinn
It's anachronistic in the sense that it was largely made obsolete by artillery
advances during the 19th century, replaced by _polygonal forts_ (which could
even adapt to high-explosive payloads, and actually proved their worth in both
world wars), as well as the more modern bunkers & fortified emplacements.

It makes a lot of sense when unlikely to face artillery and bombers though, as
it's pretty straightforward and cheap to build and operate.

But it _is_ a throwback to something which has largely become decorative in
the lands or originate from.

~~~
wffurr
The decorative aspect is actually a major piece of it's function here. It's
intended to be highly visible, and maintaining a highly visible military
presence is part of counterinsurgency tactics.

It's also a very French thing to do.

~~~
omginternets
It’s also in a theater of asymmetric warfare. It’s not like the enemy has
(serious) artillery, much less air power.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Yup, this architecture makes sure you have gun coverage for all your walls, in
case people try to get close to them / scale the walls.

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rjsw
Other nations built castles in Afghanistan using the same HESCO bastion [1]
techniques shown in the article, don't think they were as interesting shapes
though.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion)

~~~
jack_riminton
Yes our patrol base in Afghanistan was made partly of these and partly of the
adobe mud walls of the compound we were in. This shape would've been really
useful, as on more than one occasion people were able to sneak up by utilising
the visibility dead-zones

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slim
On the same vein, US embassy in Tunis is closer to a fortification than to a
diplomatic building. It even has a turret. It seems that other US embassies
around the world became fortifications after 2001.

~~~
notauser
Diplomatic buildings have often been strong points designed to keep staff safe
in uncertain times. This is true even in safer locations; the new US embassy
in London is very much a fort although the defensive features (like the water-
filled moat/pond, and bollards hidden in the hedges) are well integrated into
the landscaping.

The new site is probably considerably harder to assault than their old
building, even though that looked more like a military building. The Grovesnor
Square building was so ugly that even the official picture on the US Embassy
website tries to hide it from view behind some trees!

[https://uk.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-
history/rcg...](https://uk.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-
history/rcgrsvnr/)

~~~
scatters
Some people are unable to recognize great architecture when they see it.
Saarinen's building is applauded as one of the finest modernist structures in
Britain and is rightly Grade II listed.

[https://www.economist.com/prospero/2017/09/26/the-
american-e...](https://www.economist.com/prospero/2017/09/26/the-american-
embassy-building-in-london-is-a-modernist-classic)

~~~
throwanem
Some people are unable to recognize _awful_ architecture when they see it. I
like a lot of Saarinen's work, especially his furniture, but even Homer nods,
and his Grosvenor Square building looks like a cinderblock with a grudge.

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yread
Similar concept, lot more stars:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bourtange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bourtange)

~~~
capableweb
Actually not similar, only the shape is similar. The trick with the "trace
italienne" is that each tower (edge of the star) can reach and attack people
below the other towers, so each tower is protected by its neighbors.

As far as I can tell, Fort Bourtange never had towers for defense but rather
relied on it's walls to protect it enough.

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fmajid
Also worth visiting when travel reopens:

[https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/musee-des-plans-
reliefs-...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/musee-des-plans-reliefs-1)

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Jugurtha
For those interested, you can look up "Vauban" or "Vauban fortifications", in
reference to Sébastien Le Prestre de Vauban, an important military figure
under Louis XIV.

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082349872349872
Saint Barbara is entirely appropriate for a sapper[1] regiment, but it's
disappointing their motto is "Sapeur suis, para demeure" instead of "Bâtis ou
crève" ...

    
    
        Nous croyions nous aimer pour la vie
        Mais hélas les beaux jours sont si courts
    

[1] would their work be considered uncivil engineering?

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khuey
If you're ever in the Florida Keys Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas National
Park is a (never completed) fort in the same style and definitely worth
visiting on a day with good weather.

~~~
dewey
There's also a picture of that one in the article.

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tome
Am I missing something or is this article very short on photos? I can see only
three of the actually fortification under discussion, none of them
particularly enlightening.

~~~
wittyreference
What I gleaned from the article was that the French only released a handful of
non-security-compromising photos (eg, closeup of a flag raising), and the
author padded out the remainder of the article with drawings and pictures of
other forts.

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dmoo
[http://www.sites-vauban.org/The-Vauban-fortifications-in](http://www.sites-
vauban.org/The-Vauban-fortifications-in)

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WilTimSon
How practical are these against modern weapons? Couldn't some modern
explosives just destroy a fortress wall, thus rendering its inherent purpose
of withstanding a siege impossible? It's an interesting sight and
architecturally curious but I'm wondering what the purpose of such an effort
is.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Why destroy the wall when it traps valuable equipment that you can lob
explosive shells at.

~~~
fock
lobbing explosive shells into that need's at least a mortar, which at least
needs rudimentary setup, which means you are dead a short time after firing
your shell.

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amai
Relevant:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort#/media/File:StarF...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort#/media/File:StarFortDeadZones.png)

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codekansas
The latest edition of the Economist had an article about the recent coup in
Mali, and about the (rather obvious) need for institution-building rather than
pure military interventions by European powers:
[https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-
africa/2020/08/19/...](https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-
africa/2020/08/19/what-next-for-mali)

Mostly unrelatedly, whenever I see these types of forts I am reminded of the
forts that workers build in Civ 5, which are equally useless

~~~
ArkVark
If those institutions are completely staffed and run by Europeans, protected
by European security forces, you will jumpstart the development of the country
by several decades.

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viewbase
So... nobody is going to ask why is the French Army in Africa?

~~~
CptFribble
Mali and the surrounding countries were a French colonial territory for about
80 years from the late-19th through mid-20th centuries.

France has maintained relationships with its former colonies in West Africa,
and frequently performs counter-terrorism operations there.

Some local West Africans are OK with it, others are not. A 2016 attack on a
beach resort in Côte d'Ivoire was claimed by the attackers (AQIM - Al'Qaeda in
the Islamic Magreb), to be directly because of the foreign presence in West
Africa, and the beach resort was targeted specifically because it is popular
with foreigners (4 of the 19 killed were French).

France's history in West Africa is complicated but it's probably because of
that history that they continue to operate there.

~~~
fock
there's also the Francs CFA, meaning that these countries non-shadow economy
is - in effect - still managed by France...

~~~
lgeorget
What do you mean by "managed" exactly?

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Rexxar
I don't know what he means exactly but the main consequence is that the Franc
CFA is pegged to the Euro. It has a big impact but I wouldn't call this
"managing their economy".

~~~
lgeorget
I would say it has its advantages and issues but in any case, it's not being
imposed on any country. Many have chosen not to use it.

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zeckalpha
No mention of the Pentagon?

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speedgoose
Why would you mention it? It's not the same shape if you haven't noticed.

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aborsy
It’s interesting that the most socialist states pursue exactly the same
objectives that the most capitalistic states pursue outside their national
borders, often involving war, violence and exploitation.

The discourse internally is however one of solidarity, fraternity and
equality.

~~~
KONAir
It is not interesting at all if Stalins and Hitlers ghosts are still haunting,
it would have been odd if d'Gaulles ghost wasn't around.

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diminish
European Renaissance civilization...

And noone is asking what the french are doing there.

~~~
rumanator
Please don't let the fact that you didn't bothered to read the article you're
commenting on stop you from accessing the information you never bothered to
search.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_Maghreb_(200...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_Maghreb_\(2002%E2%80%93present\))

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twright
This article doesn’t mention the months of protests in Mali which culminated
in a coup d'état on the 18th forcing the president to resign. Yes, it’s a cool
construction, it likely does serve Operation Barkhane but I think there are
some unmentioned colonial interests.

