
U.S. Judge Rejects Uber’s Proposed $100M Settlement with Drivers - Kaedon
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-judge-rejects-ubers-proposed-100-million-settlement-with-drivers-1471560362
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yladiz
So it's murky with Uber, as far as classifying the drivers as independent vs
employees. On one end, the drivers work their own hours, own their own car,
and are "kinda" their own boss. On the other, they have to go through
mandatory training as part of their job, have to keep minimum hours on the
platform to keep their job, can't solicit tips, and don't have as much freedom
to decide to decline a passenger (as far as I understand Uber will lower their
internal rating if they don't accept passengers, so they're penalized when
they/lack freedom to decline a passenger).

I don't know all of the specifics, but from what I've read Uber is taking more
control from the driver than what a normal employer employing an independent
contractor does and it really is hard to argue that they're fully independent
contractors. There is the argument that there should be a third classification
for cases like this because the employment law is outdated, but generally
speaking, I would be surprised if this goes to jury that Uber would win even
with their amazing counsel. If they lost this lawsuit, their main business
model would be severely hurt (fully driverless cars are not realistic for
multiple reasons in the next 3-5 years, let's not kid ourselves) and their
valuation would take a big hit. Uber has an uphill battle with this if they
have to go through the entire process, and has a lot at stake.

~~~
Karunamon
For clarity:

"Mandatory training": A 7 minute video explaining how the system works the
first time you log in to the driver app

"Minimum hours": One ride every 6 months

"Cant decline": Being online in the driver app indicates willingness to drive.
Going offline is two taps.

~~~
Dayshine
>"Cant decline": Being online in the driver app indicates willingness to
drive. Going offline is two taps.

Can they refuse a specific customer?

~~~
Karunamon
It's been a year or so since I drove last, but I don't recall the ability to
see a customer's identity or destination before accepting their ride.

That would mean that declining a ride can only possibly mean that you were not
actually ready despite signaling being ready (by being online in the app).

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dcgudeman
"Prior to the judge’s ruling, San Francisco-based Uber indicated it had a
long-term solution to the debate about driver classification: driverless
vehicles. Uber said earlier Thursday it plans to begin testing autonomous
vehicles in Pittsburgh as soon as this month, featuring technology that would
eventually make human drivers obsolete."

Well I guess that's one way to accelerate innovation lol

~~~
tn13
If the human drivers become painpoint this innovation is going to go a lot
faster. I think driver of the world can untie and pressurize the government to
stop this innovation in infancy :P

~~~
bitJericho
Stopping innovation is what I'm all about!

Actually I dislike uber because of how they flout regulations and hurt
workers. But if they get rid of the workers altogether, It would be hard to
complain. Especially if fairs become a fraction of the price.

~~~
dagw
_Especially if fairs become a fraction of the price._

I wonder if prices will drop that much. Is owning and maintaining a massive
fleet of driver-less cars really that much cheaper than just paying a bunch
drivers that own and maintain their own car?

~~~
MagnumOpus
Yes it is.

First, efficiency of utilisation: Driverless cars can be driven around the
clock (modulo maintenance and refueling time), so car depreciation/maintenance
gets amortised amongst more passengers.

Second, efficiency of scale in maintenance: It is extremely unlikely that the
maintenance costs that uber drivers take on - buying parts retail and taking
their car to the nearest garage for repairs - are lower than what would be a
dedicated factory-like maintenance shop for thousands of automatic cabs.

And third of course: direct wage costs of the driver once you subtract car
maintenance from fares is still a lot bigger than zero, so eliminating that
saves money.

~~~
dagw
_Driverless cars can be driven around the clock_

So in theory can normal cars. Many taxi companies (and I'm assuming at least
some Uber drivers) share one car between 2-5 drivers to maximize the time on
the road.

The other aspect you're not considering is that even after you take economies
of scale into account a driverless car will almost certainly cost more than
the market price of the current median Uber car. I'm guessing that $3000-5000
will get you a perfectly Uber-worthy car that will give you years of fairly
trouble free use. What will a driverless car cost?

And that is ignoring the fact that most Uber drivers would have owned and
maintained a car even if they had had a different job, so the only 'cost' is
the marginal cost of extra maintenance being used as an Uber car causes.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if maintenance costs will also be higher at least
in the short-to-medium term due the complicated and experimental nature of the
components involved.

So even if there are long term savings I imagine that they will take a long
time to materialize and even longer to show up in fare-prices, unless Uber
decides to subsidize driverless fare to kick start the market.

~~~
kesselvon
Taxi's drive around looking for fares. Uber can better optimize the time used
through an algorithm. I'm betting there's a lot of time wasted for cabs that
rely on street hails.

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serge2k
It's 2016 and drivers have to sue to try and get basic employment benefits
from a company. They have to first overcome a clause which tries to enforce
mandatory arbitration to prevent class action lawsuits.

I use Uber, but I don't like Uber.

> Founders and investors say reclassifying contractors as employees could
> drive up their labor costs by at least 20%, upending their pricing models
> and making their services more expensive.

... too bad?

> As employees they would likely have more stringent work schedules and other
> requirements like wearing a uniform and undergoing time-consuming training.

But it's 2016. Tell them they have a cap of X hours per week and just track
hours worked using your app.

A uniform? Why?

Time-consuming training? To do the job better? Isn't that better for everyone?

> Drivers would also be allowed to post signs in their cars soliciting tips
> from riders.

See, I think this should be the other way around. As "contractors" who is uber
to tell them they can't do that?

Fuck tipping though. The day I have to start giving Uber drivers tips is the
day I start finding another service. Actually it's not even that, it's the
convenience of the app. if I can toss in an extra little bit when I go to rate
the driver I would be okay with that. I'm not subsidizing uber fares by
tacking on 20%. I refuse. Raise your prices.

I still don't get how uber can call their drivers contractors.

edit: To clarify on the tip thing. Some guy let me take my dog (in a crate) in
his van on an uber trip. Helped me get her in and out (big dog) as well. I'd
be happy to give him a good tip for that. I object to the idea that adequate
service deserves extra. I'd rather just pay a fair amount (probably a bit more
than now really).

edit the second: Wait, I thought the contractor status issue was already
decided in california and uber lost? They get to pay a one time fee to get
around the law?

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maccman
Every single taxi driver is a contractor - why do you think Uber should be
different?

~~~
spriggan3
Most single taxi driver can be tipped and set a price for a fair themselves.
why do you think Uber should be different ? /s

~~~
pmorici
Taxi prices are set by the local government in every US city I've ever seen.

