
Newegg refuses to repair defective laptop because user installed Linux - sequoia
http://consumerist.com/2012/06/newegg-installing-linux-on-your-computer-is-basically-the-same-as-breaking-it.html
======
singlow
I am a Linux user, and I have wrecked laptops with it before. It is easy to
overheat or otherwise abuse a laptop by having improper configs.

For example, I had a battery become unusable because Linux often failed to
sleep when the lid was closed because some dialog box was blocking. It would
run in the bag with no ventilation when I didn't realize it until the battery
drained and it would fail to shutdown until the hardware fail-safes took over
and I realized my backpack was too hot to hold. Did this a few times and the
last time, the battery wouldn't charge anymore. After getting a new battery I
became very conscientious about whether it actually was asleep before I put it
in the bag.

I have had this happen in Windows before as well, in one case it would wake up
if I forgot to turn off my Bluetooth mouse when I put it away. Since it was
already closed, there was no trigger to go back to sleep so it would run
itself dead in the bag and eventually the plastic near a hot component melted.
Turns out there is an option in the Windows device manager to tell it not to
wake on Bluetooth that prevents this.

However a defect in the factory-installed operating system that causes failure
is something you have to warranty. A defect in the user-installed operating
system is not. However, I have no idea how they could trace the problem to the
operating system. Not sure how they would ever know that Linux is installed.
Any good Linux user would wipe the hard disk before returning a computer to
the manufacturer for repair :)

~~~
slurgfest
I am a Linux user for years now, and I have never even come close to wrecking
anything with it with 'improper configs' or otherwise, on a laptop or desktop.

The problem you describe is not a matter of an 'improper config' wrecking a
laptop due to the awful user-unfriendliness of Linux. It is a matter of you
messing with something you didn't understand, jamming the machine in a bag to
overheat, and then having to replace the battery.

There does not exist an operating system which is impervious to this kind of
nonsense.

~~~
nnnnnnnn
What you say is completely incorrect.

Linux distributions (keyword: distributions) have often shipped in a default
configuration which can result in damage from overheating. There's no need to
accuse the OP of "messing with something he doesn't understand."

Vendors often perform QA on hardware to ensure that it operates properly in
conjunction with an operating system. When hardware is designed such that it
requires particular operating system behavior to prevent damage then it is
absolutely reasonable to require that operating system be used to maintain the
warranty. Closing the lid of a laptop is completely normal behavior -- and
it's a fact that many linux distributions ship with a configuration that will
not properly suspend the device, leading to potential damage.

This is not a matter of "user unfriendliness." This is primarily a matter of
hardware vendors limiting their testing to the behavior of certain operating
systems (and thus limiting their warranty -- you can't warranty what you
haven't tested; what isn't well-specified). I wouldn't be surprised if Apple
refused to warranty a device which had Windows installed on it.

There's no need to get religious here. It's merely an issue of vendor support,
and hardware which relies on particular OS behavior to operate safely.

~~~
niels_olson
Just to be clear, the issue has more to do with the vendor-supplied OS vs
consumer-installed OS. My biggest overheating-when-should-be-sleeping issues
have almost always been Windows on a Dell. But I have had it happen on a Cr-48
and MacBook as well.

------
jemfinch
File a chargeback. Show your credit card company the return policy and how you
didn't violate it, and you will get your money back.

This is precisely why you should _always_ pay with a credit card online.

~~~
ZanderEarth32
I am not to familiar with credit cards and their fraud or return policies. Why
exactly is it easier to refute charges with a credit card, more so than a debt
card?

~~~
cmelbye
Debit cards carry reversal rights as well - at least in the United States.
It's simply a mechanism to protect credit and debit card holders against
technical issues, quality issues, fraud, etc.

~~~
jemfinch
Reference? This contradicts everything I've read up to this point and I'd like
to verify it.

~~~
wccrawford
<http://whatconsumer.co.uk/visa-debit-chargeback/>

Seems to have been big news in the UK. Having trouble finding the same for the
US, though.

------
jtchang
For what it is worth I actually contacted newegg at
<http://help.newegg.com/app/ask/site/US/category/74> and asked them what they
thought.

I'm a big fan of newegg and hope they continue to bring competition to amazon.
I am hoping this is just a small oversight and it will be corrected shortly.

~~~
joering2
I stopped being their fan when their return policies changed. Now there is
something called "Restocking fee" and I have to pay for shipping?? I don't
think so.

I use Newegg to research products but once I find what I am looking for, I
search for the model on Amazon and end up purchasing there, knowing return
policy is much better for customers.

~~~
luser001
Heh, me too. Also, I just discovered <http://pcpartpicker.com/> yesterday.
Looks pretty cool. I might do my research there and buy on Amazon. I might
feel a little less guilty. :) The restocking fee policy (which screams "shady
retailer" to me) on Newegg is only reason I stopped shopping there.

OTOH, Newegg seems to have a much larger catalog of tech items than Amazon.

Also the search feature on Amazon is quite bad: try searching for '16 gb ram'
and sort by price. It will insist on showing you 2 gb packs also.

Everything except the default sort order sucks. Which doesn't inspire
confidence that Amazon isn't listing the items with the highest margins on
top.

~~~
pcarmichael
Out of curiosity, how did you hear about pcpartpicker? (I created it, so I'm
always interested to know how people find out about it. Hope you find it
useful!)

~~~
luser001
Saw a build on a post in the the hackintosh sub-reddit, the link to which was
posted here on HN. Great site.

Since you're here, I'm going to file a bug. :) I just noticed that the
following motherboard isn't showing an amazon price for me:
[http://pcpartpicker.com/part/gigabyte-motherboard-
gaz68xud3h...](http://pcpartpicker.com/part/gigabyte-motherboard-gaz68xud3hb3)

although amazon has it: [http://www.amazon.com/Gigabyte-Intel-
DDR3-Motherboards-GA-Z6...](http://www.amazon.com/Gigabyte-Intel-
DDR3-Motherboards-GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3/dp/B00518M74I/)

~~~
pcarmichael
Thanks! I've fixed up the motherboard price for Amazon, though the price I
list is when fulfilled from Amazon.com directly and not from their marketplace
merchants.

------
dllthomas
What gets me is "system cannot be resold as received" - I mean, sure, a
customer should wipe their data off the disk... but would NewEgg really ship a
system to a new customer without doing a fresh install of the OS if it was
running Windows?

~~~
noobiscus
Don't know about NewEgg, but I have personally received a windows PC from
Staples (UK) that already had a user account for 'dave' on it.

I am not a Dave.

------
dbingham
And so the day has come in which Newegg has become just another internet
retailer.

~~~
sciurus
Their site has been steadily getting more annoying to use for a while now. It
feels like they want to be Amazon.

~~~
sliverstorm
Who wouldn't?

~~~
sciurus
There's money to be made in providing the best experience for purchasing
computer equipment, which is what Newegg used to provide. Newegg has lost the
focus necessary to maintain that experience; e.g.
[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA01200095...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA01200095Y0)

------
johnchristopher
I always wonder wether an incorrectly configured ubuntu kernel or drivers
could actually damage modern computers. I remember viruses from the 80's that
supposedly could kill the machine by asking the bios to increase and decrease
voltages or hdd spin in such a way it would deal physical damages to the
machine. Might have been a computer legend though.

Note: When returning laptop, desktop, smartphone or anything I always tend to
be anal retentive and put everything back in place, including software and OS
so there are no arguing wether the problem is software or hardware (obviously
I only need to send back hardware defective devices).

------
georgemcbay
Tangential to this story but anecdotally I've been hearing of lots of
situations recently where newish laptops have had screen problems soon after
purchase and the brands involved have varied (ASUS, Lenovo, Acer, etc). And by
"screen problems", I mean electrical ones either with the panel itself or with
the controller, resulting most often in parts of the screen or the entire
screen dancing towards full white.

I wonder if there is some shared panel manufacturer who has been dropping the
ball lately?

~~~
Yarnage
It's probably just a coincidence. Most electronics have a manufacturing
failure rate so these things can happen.

~~~
excuse-me
And a screen problem is pretty much obvious to anyone straight away.

Intermittent problems on anything else will either not be noticed by ordinary
users or blamed on Windows!

------
tibbon
I had a really bad experience in the past with Newegg and their lower levels
of customer service. At one point I documented and blogged it, but that blog
is no longer up unfortunately.

Anyway, the good news is that once I got in touch with someone higher up the
chain they were like, "That never should have happened" and worked to make it
right. It just took a ton of kicking and screaming to get there, which really
wasn't worth it on my part, but in the end, they did the right thing.

One thing I'm seeing more and more is that companies are holding back their
lower tier support employees from actually being helpful. For example, have
you _ever_ had one of those "Instant Online Chat Support" things help you out?
No, they are always so unempowered its not even funny.

~~~
beambot
I've used an "Instant Online Chat Support" for TurboTax (answering questions)
and at my auto repair company (to schedule appointments). Worked fine for me.
When done well, it can be vastly superior to phoning in. But like you said...
the people on the other side need to be empowered.

------
kenrikm
I have had bad customer service from NewEgg in the past I'm not surprised by
this. Now I buy almost everything off Amazon and only go to Newegg for stuff
that can't be DOA (cables and such)

~~~
sciurus
I would definitely shop monoprice over newegg for cables.

~~~
teach
Not that Newegg sells them, but I've had bad luck with Monoprice's analog
cables (1/4" or XLR).

------
sigmaxipi
Note that the NewEgg's refusal is based on the original OS being missing
rather than a new OS being installed according to that email. My guess is that
the user formatted the HD before installing Linux. Most OEM PCs now come with
a recovery partition which is used to perform a factory reset. If the user
erased this partition, then NewEgg would be unable to reset the device to its
initial state for testing. It would be similar to the user returning the
device by not returning important CDs.

------
systematical
This is not the community they want to alienate.

~~~
lowrydin9
Agreed. Surprising response from Newegg - we've had no problem returning
machines that were defective here at work. Filing a chargeback appears to be
the best solution in this case.

------
motoford
NewEgg has really lost their way over the past 2 or 3 years. I have gone from
don't even check anywhere else to checking NewEgg last. Amazon almost always
beats them on price now.

------
JumpCrisscross
Is it at all possible that Linux Mint in some way collided with a driver or
some other critical infrastructure?

~~~
ImprovedSilence
My thought exactly. I'm kinda curious as to what harm linux floffin off can
do. Don't get me wrong, I still use and love Linux, but there is always a
problem with linux, so far it's always in software/doesn't affect hardware,
but I guess it's possible to do damage to the hardware?

~~~
slurgfest
I have never heard of the mere act of installing Linux damaging any hardware,
ever. I would like to hear substantiation before I start believing that.

Back in the day you could hose your CRT by trying to set a graphics mode it
didn't support, but that would take a special effort to do.

~~~
tedunangst
<http://lwn.net/Articles/300202/>

Can't find the followup that explains the actual bug, but it had to do with
the kernel unmapping some unneeded memory and ...blah... and whacking random
garbage into the eeprom of the network card. All you had to do was boot linux
once and your network card would never work again, at least until you went to
the trouble of flashing it.

~~~
slurgfest
The post is titled "e1000e and the joy of development kernels"

This is hardly a matter of 'improper config'!

Why on EARTH are you running DEVELOPMENT KERNELS (not just talking about
newish kernels) on your bare hardware? Is that something normal users would
do? Why? How would they even acquire and install them?

How do you expect to ensure that bleeding edge open source development drivers
cannot be used to do stupid things? Some kind of legal prohibition on making
any drivers until you have been vetted by some central committee?

~~~
tedunangst
??? You wanted an example of linux damaging hardware, I gave you one. I'm
sorry it's not to your liking.

------
rrrazdan
I have had HP India refuse servicing my laptop (its speakers went kaput)
because I had VLC installed. According to them, greater than 100% sound
amplification in VLC was to blame.

------
lysol
It doesn't matter who the vendor is, extended warranties from the retailer are
braindead.

~~~
Yarnage
It was an RMA, not an extended warranty repair. But I agree with you anyway.

------
orbitingpluto
This is NewEgg's chance to either gain or lose 1% of its customer base. Since
margins are so tight on computers, and NewEgg costs for software support will
decline, isn't this a no-brainer from a business perspective?

~~~
motoford
I think their customer base of people who use Linux, might want to use Linux,
or who are just plain disgusted by this behaviour is way way more than 1%.

Remember that the people who will be upset by this (techies) are the same ones
who put NewEgg on the map to start with.

------
bhudman
Newegg used to be awesome - I have spent thousands in the last 6 years with
them, but their customer service is terrible. Their customer service pretty
much reads a script and keep repeating the same thing.

I think all companies have a life cycle: 1\. New company, so customer is
treated well/ 2\. Company grows and becomes successful 3\. Company needs to
show ever increasing profits. Starts taking shortcuts to save money, and
starts to ignore what made them great in the first place.

------
uslic001
I now try to buy all my electronics at Amazon instead of NewEgg or TigerDirect
due to the poor return policies at Newegg and TigerDirect with DOA items.
NewEgg used to be better than it is now but they have gone downhill in the
past two years. TigerDirect has always had poor return policies.

------
zyce
The policy quoted states you can't return it even if it is opened.

"The following conditions are not acceptable for return, and will result in
the merchandise being returned to you: Any desktop PC, notebook or tablet PC
that has been opened"

------
mayneack
Looks like they've fixed this specific problem.

[http://consumerist.com/2012/06/newegg-no-well-totally-
take-r...](http://consumerist.com/2012/06/newegg-no-well-totally-take-returns-
after-you-install-linux.html)

------
invisiblecow
I don't buy at newegg or have any other incentive to side with them but... in
my past experiences, Linux didn't really have the most compatible hardware
drivers. Am I the only one to think that?

~~~
andrewcooke
this is a thinkpad. they've always been the top-end linux hardware of choice.
i've had thinkpads for decades with linux. as long as you select the right
wireless card there are no issues - distros even have special packages for
thinkpad compatability.

~~~
sigkill
Not just that, in fact, a guy from Canonical commented on reddit saying that
this specific model was certified for ubuntu.

------
shmerl
They need to put presser on Newegg managers. It's simply ridiculous.

------
mrwud
Couldn't she just reinstall windows and send it back?

~~~
grecy
That would depend on how dead the machine is.

Let's assume we're talking about a dead screen, motherboard or power
supply.... it's going to be hard to re-install windows then.

~~~
danielweber
You could get a second hard drive. Pull the first one out, put the second one
in, do whatever you want. When/if it's time to return, put the first drive
back in. They'll wonder why you've barely used it but whatever.

I did this when laptops were $1500. Now that they are $400 it's usually not
worth the bother.

------
excuse-me
I bought 10 identical Shuttle PCs from newegg.

One was DoA and I returned it with an RMA - they sent it straight back to me
because I had returned it in the wrong box. The serial # on the machine didn't
match the barcode on the box!

They seriously expect you to keep the individual box for every unit? Or are
they just a scam that try and stop you every returning anything?

Anyway - haven't bought anything from them since.

~~~
tzs
If you had said you were returning a two year old unit for warranty repair,
and it was denied because you did not use the original box, I would sympathize
with you. Expecting you to keep all your boxes for years would clearly be
ridiculous.

But for a DoA unit? You couldn't keep the box for a few hours or days?
Seriously?

~~~
thereallurch
Picture this: You bought 10 of something, all identical items (minus some sn
on the box). You throw away the packaging material for 8 or 9 of the 10 items
(remember, it's all identical). You then have a device DOA/fail that isnt the
EXACT packaging you saved. What difference would it make to newegg take the
item out of the box and scan the barcode inside? A little customer service
goes a long way.

------
AGrinsPaul
If you would like to petition Dell to start to include Ubuntu/Fedora/RHEL on
all of their machines and stop the whole "Dell Recommends Windows 7" monopoly
cartel join this idea on ideastorm and let's try to get our voices heard...

Dell Ideastorm Multiboot Linux:
[http://www.ideastorm.com/idea2ReadIdea?id=0877000000006ixAAA...](http://www.ideastorm.com/idea2ReadIdea?id=0877000000006ixAAA&v=1339437474096)

Dell Linux & Windows on all Laptops/Desktops:
[http://www.ideastorm.com/idea2ReadIdea?Id=087700000008iglAAA...](http://www.ideastorm.com/idea2ReadIdea?Id=087700000008iglAAA&v=1339424370822)

Dell Sputnik Ubuntu Laptop:
[http://www.ideastorm.com/Idea2SessionIdea?v=1339521444920...](http://www.ideastorm.com/Idea2SessionIdea?v=1339521444920&id=a017000000hIx3bAAC)

------
evilbit
Newegg: party like it's 1999...

~~~
evilbit
downvoters clearly haven't been linux users cca 1999...

