
If You’re Building a Startup You Need to Move to Phoenix (Not Silicon Valley) - asp2insp
https://m.tuftandneedle.com/if-you-re-building-a-startup-you-need-to-move-to-phoenix-not-silicon-valley-a7505318cd45
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Twirrim
You could replace Phoenix in the article with a number of other cities, and
indeed find plenty of unique benefits for each of those areas. With the
exception of possibly New York or Honolulu, you're almost guaranteed to find
it would be significantly cheaper in every way.

It would be good to start to see the tech industry / startup space start to
spread out just a little bit more than it currently is.

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BannedInSweden
As a dev here in Phx with several friends in different startups who are also
programmers, I can confirm a lot of what the article says.

Next time you think of spinning up a company in silicon valley - try to
remember there is likely someone else trying to build the exact same thing
here and doing it with 2x the number of employees(because labor costs are less
here) and an extra year worth of capitol because space is cheap.

Yes heat is tricky, but compared to the pain of failure or losing out to a
better functioning competitor it seems a small price to pay.

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pnathan
Interesting. I've always seen Phoenix as a place where you spend most of your
life indoors due to the heat. And it always has given me a "suburb" vibe when
I've flown over it.

Haven't lived there though.

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runnr_az
Oh man... it's super suburban. Of course, if you've got a family and don't
want neighbors breathing down on you from every direction, a proper suburban
home here is totally affordable.

That said, if you like to play outside, it's a paradise. We've got thousands
of acres of public land within reach, easily accessible and free to all.

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pnathan
Heh, I live in Seattle. Not only do I have the Cascades within reach, I have
the Puget Sound, _and_ a lack of Phoenix heat. _And_ it's not super suburban.

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runnr_az
Oh sure! There a nice places everywhere! I think we can both be jealous of
folks who live in Boulder and whatnot.

I guess what I mean is this - we have several HUGE parks right in our urban
area: South Mountain, the Phoenix Mountain Preserve, and the McDowell Mountain
Preserve. If you like to hike, mountain bike, or trail run, we've got a great
community of folks out there wandering around. (This time of year, at the
crack of dawn.)

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eip
Not a bad idea but probably a tough sell in June. Forecast high temperature of
115F this week. Which translates to 125F+ at ground level in the parking lot
where you have to walk to your car.

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stoic
"But it's a dry heat"

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snerbles
Having worked in 125F with near-zero humidity (Kuwait) and 90F with 100%
humidity (Alabama), I'll take the dry heat every time.

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paulcole
I visited the Scottsdale area on vacation a few months ago and despite the
pleasant weather, the complete lack of pedestrians was amazing.

There were these nice, big sidewalks but NOBODY was using them. I walked a few
miles a day and passed less than 10 total pedestrians. There were quite a few
joggers and bicyclists though.

One passenger on a shared airport shuttle asked the driver to go out of his
way to drop him off directly in front of his door to avoid having to walk
about 50 feet.

I was just floored by the whole experience.

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runnr_az
I guess if I were pitching PHX as a place to live, I'd say this: let's say
you're 40, got a family, fighting it out in the Bay Area everyday for some
little piece of the pie, a place like Phoenix could be a real shift of gears
towards the better. This is an easy to place to live: commutes are fairly
relaxed, real estate prices are low, everything is laid out in a nice big
grid, so you're never really lost.

The obvious criticism of The Valley, as we like to call it, is that it's an
undifferentiated sea of vitamin-c colored houses, that's totally true.
Absolutely. And yeah, it's gonna be 108 here at the end of the week. Nothing
but sunny days for the next three months.

The key to survival of an Arizona summer is to find a pool, grab a beer, and
settle in.

Arizona is not without its obvious issues, but this place is steadily getting
better. We've got a really strong outdoors community, tons of people up at
dawn, running around in one of the really sizable parks which dot our
metroplex. Our cultural scene has come together well after the launch of the
Crescent Ballroom in Downtown PHX. We're centrally located with easy access to
all the pleasures of the west, from the beaches at Rocky Point, Mexico and San
Diego to the mountains in Colorado.

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tgb29
I'm living in Las Vegas right now, but Phoenix is one of my favorite cities.
For me, the benefits include the low cost of living, the low stress traveling
by car and public transportation, and a diverse nightlife.

I grew up in NJ and I prefer 110 with low humidity over 85 and high humidity.
The summer heat is tough mid-day, but the mornings and nights are really nice.
I lived in PHX the most recent winter and had no complaints, and fall and
spring are beautiful.

I'm not convinced yet Phoenix is the best city for a startup, but it does
depend on the type of business you're getting into. I think Phoenix is a great
city if you want to grow your company and expand operations with a new office.

The demographic is unique in Phoenix, and it's still hard for me to understand
why people think differently. I find it amazing how different the demographic
is than Las Vegas, which is also a desert and only 4.5 hours away. I really
like the suburbs of Las Vegas, but I would move to Phoenix again if I was
involved in a meaningful project.

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bashinator
Keep in mind the law enforcement in Phoneix and Maricopa county make the Bay
Area look like Holland.

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walshemj
And I suspect the noncompete laws are not as friendly.

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throwaway2016a
Should try New Hampshire... just slightly north of Boston so you get a lot of
the benefits of being adjacent to the city but a lot nicer place to settle
down in a lot of ways (lower cost of living, newer and more affordable
housing, etc). And it still very much has an innovation atmosphere. In fact,
there is a talent pool of people who commute down to Boston every day that
would love to shorten that commute.

Nashua and Manchester New Hampshire are roughly the same distance from Boston
as Providence, Rhode Island (which also has a tech scene) but I'd rather live
their than Rhode Island.

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iokevins
Water supply: what's the latest (?) Lake Mead still seems really low:

[http://arachnoid.com/NaturalResources/](http://arachnoid.com/NaturalResources/)

An AZCentral article, from August 2014, which lays out some good news/bad news
points, including the 2014 NASA groundwater study:

[http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/08/11...](http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/08/11/arizona-
water-supply-drought/13883605/)

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ninjaroar
It might make sense if you are bootstrapping and Phoenix is a place you want
to live. (It is too hot, too conservative, and too suburban for my taste)

But if you try to raise money, you suffer from a valuation penalty for not
being in Silicon Valley - just from the fact that there will be fewer
interested investors. That valuation penalty is probably going to far exceed
the cost savings of being outside Silicon Valley.

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BannedInSweden
Yes... if only there was a technology that let us communicate with investors
in other places... or better yet some sort of modern flying machine that could
take us there!!

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Jemaclus
The author spends quite a bit of time comparing the expenses, but never really
mentions the pay. It's a better deal _if the pay stays the same_. This kind of
comparison happens a lot, but I personally think it's a little faulty.

To demonstrate, let's do some math. If I make 60K after taxes in Phoenix and
spend 18K/year on rent (1.5K * 12), and let's say another 12K on food and gas
and miscellaneous expenses, then I have spent 30K and have 30K remaining.
That's 50% of my income goes to expenses.

If I live in San Francisco and make 120K/year after taxes, and I spend 50% of
my income on rent and food like I did in Phoenix, then I've both made 2x the
Phoenix salary and I've spent 2x the Phoenix expenses. But what's left?
Instead of 30K in savings, I have 60K in savings.

By living in SF, I've saved an additional 30K over what I would have saved in
Phoenix. Now, I'm using nice round numbers here to make a point, but even if
SF expenses were 2.5 or even 3x Phoenix expenses, I'd still come out ahead.

Sure, the psychological impact of paying less feels good, but unless you can
keep your pay closer to SF pay while living in Phoenix, you're probably not
going to come out ahead financially.

My two cents.

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xirdstl
Is it true you'll clear 2x as much post-tax salary in SV as compared to
Phoenix?

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Jemaclus
I live in SF now and I'm definitely clearing 2x as much post-tax as I was in
Atlanta. I've never lived in Phoenix, so I can't really speak to it other than
hypothetically.

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umanwizard
If you are okay with not hiring the best, then sure, move your startup to
Phoenix.

Startups go to Silicon Valley and NYC because that's where the talent is.
Talent goes there because that's where the startups are. Even if everything
about Phoenix is objectively better, how are you going to overcome this trend?

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notacoward
Real talent goes (or stays) wherever it damn well pleases, and has the
leverage to insist on telecommuting if that's not where HQ happens to be. "All
the talent is in X" is egotistical BS for any value of X, whether it's a city
or a whole country.

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umanwizard
You're talking about the super-high-end. I'm talking about a statistical
distribution.

There are way, way more talented people, for any level of talent, in the bay
area than in Phoenix.

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jrnichols
Many of the same reasons he lists are why more startups are popping up in
Texas too.

and, well, Omaha. :-)

It's no secret that once you get out of California, the business climate is a
lot different.

