

Ask HN: Are freelancer sites (e.g. Odesk, Elance) useless? - fatpanda

So I submitted a few gigs to freelance sites like Odesk, freelancer.com, elance etc. I used the handy guide provided by Derek Sivers on how to write up a good "help wanted" ad.<p>I was looking for a skilled designer to produce a simple UI.<p>After about 2 minutes, I received around 8 applications on odesk and freelancer.com. By the end of the day, I had around 40 applications in total.<p>Problem is: almost all of them sucked. Very disappointing indeed.<p>Has anyone out there actually found a good designer / developer on one of these freelance sites? Care to share tips?
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jasonkester
As a rule, you can toss every response you get in the first hour. As you've
noticed, there are tons on people on those sites who send out the same canned
proposal to every single listing. That level of attention is a good indicator
of how the rest of your project will go if you're foolish enough to take one
of them on.

Wait a few days. If you've written a good project description (and if you're a
bit lucky), you'll start to see a few qualified proposals trickle in.

This is the main problem with freelancing sites. The race to the bottom
finished years ago, and the result is that there are simply no good developers
or designers left there. It's actually an opportunity waiting for talented
newcomers, since a single person showing up and acting professionally would
get the job described by this poster (and everybody else who goes there
seriously looking to build something).

I took the time to write up my experiences with these freelance sites a few
years back:

[http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/09/how-to-fail-
at...](http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/09/how-to-fail-at-
freelancing-in-5-easy.html)

~~~
fatpanda
Thanks for tip. You're absolutely right, most of the first once were automated
and totally crap. This was evidenced by the fact that they didn't contain the
test "I AM REAL" statement which was intended to filter out the spammers.

I'll wait it out a bit longer before calling it quits on these sites.

~~~
csomar
_This was evidenced by the fact that they didn't contain the test "I AM REAL"
statement which was intended to filter out the spammers._

Sorry, but this is stupid. I think a developer should write a dedicated
message. That is, you should figure it out from the message you get, you don't
need such things. I actually ignore buyers that put such rules.

~~~
robgough
I've no experience of these sites, but asking dev's to put "i am real" strikes
me as something they're doing out of desperation of dealing with fake requests
etc.

This implies to me that they will be all the more appreciative when you turn
out to actually be real! A client that appreciates you from the get go, well
that has to be a good thing, no?

~~~
pbreit
The problem is that it's disrespectful in the first place. Who wants to be
part of a group that is so little respected? How hard is it to make an
evaluation that doesn't devalue the audience?

~~~
asymmetric
Harder than you think. OTOH, how hard is it (on your feelings) to type 'i am
human'?

------
pixeloution
From the other side of the fence, I can tell you its extremely difficult to
find reasonable clients as a programmer on one of these sites. The
expectations are almost always unreasonable, and the rates clients are willing
to pay are very low.

When I had started using various sites of this type, my intention was to take
projects at below my normal rate to fill in "dead time" -- I'd decided I could
settle for $25 an hour. This number proved virtually impossible to meet except
for the rare client who needed something immediately and was willing to pay
$50-$75 to have something fixed.

The end result? I think competent programmers are driven away from these sites
because the financial rewards are simply not worth it. I found getting
projects at $20/hour a challenge, and $15/hour typical. To put that in
perspective I was charging my more typical clients $50/hour at the time.

~~~
bendmorris
I think it really depends on your specific set of skills. If you have a niche
skill that a lot of $2-3 an hour programmers aren't going to be able to
duplicate, there will be a few higher paying gigs. I only joined oDesk
recently but have already had some luck with Haskell development. If your
primary skill is, say, PHP or Ruby you might have more trouble.

------
ruby_dancer
I have the opposite problem. I'm a former mobile game engineer at an RoR shop,
and decided to go the freelance route, recently. However, I have no idea where
to start.

I initially went to the sites listed above, but eh...every job had hundreds of
bids offering absurd rates (no, you are not going to build a Facebook clone
for $200 dollars in 10 days).

Anyone have any tips on how to find clients who understand the market and are
willing to pay for quality work?

~~~
Sodaware
My first freelance gig came from oDesk a couple of years ago, and since then
I've gone on to freelance full time. I'm not an expert on the subject by any
stretch, but this is the best advice I can give:

* Don't try and compete on price. A lot of freelancers on the site can go lower, and you'll end up broke. Besides, if a client is more interested in saving a few dollars than paying for a decent worker, you're saving yourself a lot of future pain.

* When you apply for something, say what you'll do and give a rough idea of how you'll solve their problem. It only has to be a few paragraphs, but you'll have put more thought in than 99% of other applicants.

* Look for jobs that mention an ongoing relationship. This usually means they have a lot more work and want to try things out.

All of my work now comes from referrals which in some way originate from the
first job I did on oDesk. It was discouraging when I was rejected for jobs
despite putting in the effort, but the work paid off in the end. Best of luck!

~~~
jlmendezbonini
I really like your approach, obvious but it didn't cross my mind before. Using
the freelancing sites to bootstrap yourself but aiming towards long-term
relationships and referrals. Two questions though: 1\. Can you share what you
do as a freelancer? 2\. You are not longer active on oDesk or any other
freelance sites then?

~~~
Sodaware
1\. I started doing custom blog plugins, but have also done e-commerce sites,
Facebook apps and custom web applications. I'm a coder, not a designer, but
that hasn't caused any problems for me so far.

2\. Haven't touched oDesk since my first job there. I might use it again in
the future, but to be honest I found searching for work there rather
depressing with all the low rates.

------
jeremydavid
I have had quite a bit of success using these services.

Here are a few of my tips:

1\. As jasonkester said, wait at least a week before you start looking at
proposals and making your decision. You get a lot of crap in the first few
days, and you want to give the "good" people enough time to find and read it.

2\. Be really clear and specific with your RFP. Go in into as much detail as
possible, and look for responses that indicate that they have read it. Also,
make sure you use a descriptive headline. You're competing with quite a few
people, so you want your project to stand out.

3\. Ask a few specific questions in your description. This is not only a great
way to start to grasp their domain knowledge, but you also can filter out
people who haven't read it (similar to #2).

4\. When you have narrowed down your selection to 3 or 4, send them an even
more detailed description of your project and arrange a Skype call. It's easy
to be deceptive via email, but if you have someone on the phone you can
quickly gauge how competent they are on the fly. Treat it like a real phone
interview for a job you've had in the past, except you are the interviewer.

Good luck!

------
Vitaly
The good ones stay away from this kind of sites. The only chance is to catch
someone good and promising before he gets buried under piles of works, raises
the prices and no longer needs those sites ;)

~~~
random42
Seems to be my pattern. I've got to increase my rates 100% in last 6 months,
and I have still had to say No to some customers/additional work, because of
enough work.

I've got encouraging comments from my customers, but dont think I am _that_
good. (Probably/Hopefully Dunning-Kruger effect in play).

~~~
necrodome
It is not Dunning-Kruger effect. It is impostor syndrome.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome>

~~~
jlmendezbonini
I have no psychology experience but after reading the wikipedia page of
Impostor Syndrome, Dunning-Kruger effect, and skimming through Dunning and
Kruger's Nobel Prize paper[1] there is a third effect/syndrome that seems to
be involved: False consensus effect [2]. They state: "Simply, put, these
participants assumed that because they performed so well, their peers must
have performed well likewise."[1]. If you are interested as how they reached
that conclusion refer to section "Burden of Expertise" on page 1131 (pdf page
11) in [1].

As an extra note: The Impostor syndrome is not an officially recognized
psychological disorder[3]. I've seen the Impostor syndrome mentioned many
times but had never taken time to read the complete wikipedia page.

[1][http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~dunning/publications/pdf/un...](http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~dunning/publications/pdf/unskilledandunaware.pdf)
[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect>
[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome>

------
RealGeek
I have been on both sides of these freelance sites. I freelanced through them
when I was in school.

Now I occasionally outsource some of our work through these websites.
Following are the tips that usually work for me:

\- Freelance Outsourcing works best for smaller projects with a clear scope.
Examples: web design, PSD to XHTML, WordPress / CMS themes etc. It works best
in this use case because a lot of people have such requirements. Freelancers
are well versed with it, and they have usually worked on at least one similar
project.

\- Find the designers / developers who have worked on a project similar like
yours. There are freelancers who are expert at a particular stack / technology
/ framework. Example: Wordpress, Django, Code Igniter, iOS experts. They don't
apply at every listing unlike most freelancers. Once you shortlist them,
invite them to apply for your listing and review their past work.

~~~
aymeric
"Freelance Outsourcing works best for smaller projects with a clear scope"

Agreed. This is exactly the kind of outsourcing my website focuses on.

You have on one end of the spectrum "project outsourcing" (odesk, elance, ...)
and on the other end "microtask outsourcing" (fiverr), and in between there is
<http://taskarmy.com> that focuses on skilled tasks.

I am looking for more quality developers on it, especially PHP. Please submit
your service if you are interested.

Thanks!

------
drtse4
If you are searching for a designer, the sites listed above are not the right
places, i'd try with 99designs.com or manually searching a designer from
dribbble.com.

If you decide to go the 99design way (easier maybe) read this:
[http://blog.trisse.com/2011/05/09/how-to-make-the-most-of-
yo...](http://blog.trisse.com/2011/05/09/how-to-make-the-most-of-
your-99-designs-submission/)

~~~
fatpanda
Thanks for the link - very good tips there.

I think you're right with dribbble. I've also been looking into Behance.net
and Creattica. Have you had good experiences with directly approaching
designers?

~~~
kaotakka
Hey, maybe some of you freelance web developers could make a site like
Dribbble, but for developers: invite-only, high quality developers, and
screenshots/descriptions of completed projects. Maybe client
ratings/recommendations too.

~~~
thomasgerbe
I feel like GitHub is the Dribbble for developers (except for the
exclusivity).

You'll probably gather more out of their code than screenshots of what they've
been a part of.

~~~
kaotakka
Yeah, github is a great way for developers to see what other developers are
like, but it doesn't tell you which developers are looking for freelance work,
nor does it help nontechnical people figure out who is good (unless it has
some recommendation system that I don't know about)

------
andybak
I'm currently working with an excellent Django developer (in China) and a top-
notch designer/front-end dev (in Serbia). Found them both through oDesk.

Apply a bit of filtering. One trick I use is asking a simple domain-knowledge
type question in the posting. Ignore everyone who doesn't read it properly or
doesn't bother answering. That will instantly cut a lot of the crud out.

~~~
kschua
Sorry to have to use HN for this as you don't have an email address in your
profile, but could I get in touch with your designer in Serbia please?

------
atlantic
I work on oDesk as an ASP.NET developer. I never apply to any jobs. The more
experienced employers don't usually post their projects publicly; they create
private projects, and then send out invitations encouraging selected
individuals to apply. That way they avoid receiving low-quality responses.

~~~
aymeric
This is a good point, but to get invited you need to have a good history.

What did you do when you started to get your first clients?

~~~
atlantic
I started the regular way, by creating a profile, taking the time to fill in
my job history properly, and to do as many oDesk tests as possible. I set my
initial price lowish to reflect absence of history.

The first jobs I got were not in IT but in translation and copywriting, where
demonstrating my skills was much easier. To get the first job in IT, I had to
offer references outside oDesk - which were followed up - to make my profile
credible.

Once I had my first jobs, my main focus was on delivering very high quality
work - even if it was not always very well paid - so as to build up a very
positive feedback history. My main focus at this stage was on creating a good
profile, not making money.

Once I had enough history and feedback, new job offers started rolling in, and
I stopped looking for work.

------
martinshen
As someone who had posted jobs on oDesk, I have to say that even the low
skilled jobs (data entry) are poorly done. I've also posted some higher
skilled jobs like basic stuff based on Zend and it too was a disappointment.
I've now learned my lesson on higher skilled jobs (design and dev) going after
HTML chop shops, 99designs or real designers with websites.

I'm still looking for somewhere for cheap mechanical labor (basic writing
gigs, data entry etc). Anyone have any suggestions?

~~~
aymeric
<http://taskarmy.com> focuses on task outsourcing instead of project
outsourcing.

Disclaimer: my baby.

------
gohat
I've found some good designer/developers through freelance sites like Guru and
Elance and even Craigslist.

My trick, if it is one, is to put a human face on my postings. I share a
little about who I am, a young entrepreneur trying to do something cool.

This usually helps get 1 or 2 posts that are by someone whose a good match and
it usually goes well from there.

------
pingou
I've just signed up on odesk as a freelance programmer. Do you think it will
scare people away if I say that my English skill is 3 stars out of 5 ? I'm
afraid people aren't willing to work with guys who are not fluent in
English... By the way, does anyone know if there are Europeans posting jobs on
odesk ?

~~~
tibbon
From what you just posted your English sounds fine. If your English isn't
great, and you feel there is some miscommunication, make sure not to hide it
but just to ask for verification about what you're thinking you need to do.

~~~
pingou
Thank you, actually on Odesk 3 stars mean fluent in written English, but not
so good in spoken English. I wonder if a lot of people need to communicate on
skype for example.

------
Brewer
Reading the comments here is actually somewhat interesting. I've considered
doing a bit of freelancing for some extra cash (I'm in college now) but I
always assumed that the people on these sites were pros and that I wouldn't
stand a chance.

Maybe I'll have to give freelancing another thought!

~~~
balac
Go for it, you just need a bit of patience in the beginning, but if you
comminicate well in your proposal (provide some rough ideas about possible
implementations, related experience, etc.) you stand a good chance of getting
work. Once you get a few good reviews you stand a better chance that you will
be invited to work without having to apply directly as well.

------
pier0
In average the response you'll receive on free lance marketplaces will always
be disappointing, but if the project is not too complicate, you can always
find someone good enough to do it.

One option is to invite coders to bid on your project by looking at their past
experiences and find some that may relate to the type of project you have.

Other than that, and I know I've said this before, the best coders on free
lance sites are those that ask questions relevant to your project description.

While you can safely discard all those that submit generic bids with links to
their portfolios without any type of comment about the project they are
bidding on, those that ask questions are the ones you want to work with.

------
3pt14159
The best way to use these sites is to find the one developer on there that is
actually competent and then make a closed project that speaks directly to that
provider. Sure you will pay $25 to $60 per hour, but you will get damn good
service and quality. The rest of it is a crap shoot.

------
kmander
I've outsourced a ton, spending >$5k over the past 8-years or so. I've written
a little about how best to outsource through these platforms:
<http://www.keithmander.com/?p=243>

~~~
fatpanda
Thanks Keith. It was a good read. Also liked your post on ebay hacks!

------
aymeric
As a rule of thumb, if you are looking for a developer on these websites,
focus your search on eastern europeans and skip the indians and pakistanis.

Of course there are good indians, but more often than not, you would be
wasting your time.

------
jorkos
In short, yes I have found good designers. One of the keys is to give 4 or 5
of the best applicants a small test project before moving forward

------
desaiguddu
'handy guide provided by Derek Sivers on how to write up a good "help wanted"
ad.' Can you suggest a link , where I can find the ad you are referring !
thanks

------
asymmetric
the recently launched <http://codeyouridea.com> looks like an interesting take
on the problem. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2540909>

------
brianjolney
my odesk secret: only pitch developers you want to work for you. The inbound
stuff is all crap, where as I've found several awesome developers and
designers who I contact via email on a regular basis, and bill all work
through oDesk.

------
crossroad
[http://www.freshbooks.com/blog/2011/01/13/say-no-to-spec-
wor...](http://www.freshbooks.com/blog/2011/01/13/say-no-to-spec-work/)
<http://www.no-spec.com/what-is-spec/>

~~~
jtheory
The sites under discussion are very explicitly _not_ for spec work. Because
they make their money by taking a percentage from the payment, in fact, they
do everything they can to make sure all work is paid.

