
An Economist’s Guide to Potty Training - anarbadalov
https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/an-economists-guide-to-potty-training/
======
mensetmanusman
Five kids here, all trained for #2 by age 6 mo - 16 mo.

Speaking from our experience..

Keys:

-Sign language, learn the 10 most basic needs (food, potty, more, thanks, water, etc). They can use their hands before speaking

-Sit them on the toilet when they are young, they have to have some sense of what it is. Don’t wait until they can talk about it. While they are sitting, use signing and words and point to explain what is going on. Read to them while sitting (sometimes up to 30 min), if they start going, cheer/sign/talk and give them a treat! Start making the connection that this is a great thing.

-Have them walk around with no pants, as much as it is annoying to clean up, they have to get some feedback as to what is happening to them.

-Don’t use super absorbing diapers, we use reusable diapers for cost savings, and because the children can then feel wetness down there and start building a feedback loop of cause and effect. (we use disposables overnight to reduce rashes)

From experience in our friend group, if you wait until 3 y.o., they can start
using potty as a tantrum/power play (not good).

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
Really cool. Did you follow a particular strategy/book? Also, how did you
handle night training? At what age we’re they “fully” trained?

~~~
mensetmanusman
Well, we make sure not to give them too many liquids before bed, and we make
sure they sit down on the toilet for 10 seconds before bed even if they
protest.

3y.o: ‘I don’t have to go!’ me: ‘sit down’ 3y.o: ‘noooooo’ me: ‘sit’ 3y.o:
‘ohhh....’

This is the same throughout the day, you don’t listen to them, you just make
them sit down at regular intervals esp. if going out somewhere.

------
philips
Really funny article for folks with kids.

With our kid we ruthlessly followed Jamie Glowacki's "Oh Crap!" potty training
book. The tl;dr is let the kid run around without pants and figure out,
through immediate feedback, if they wet themselves and for the parents to,
like a hawk, identify "tells" that the child is in need of a toilet before the
event. It essentially sucked up 2 weeks of our life being focused on the
process of getting our child to notice when they need to toilet (and cleaning
when they don't) but by 18 months old our kid was mostly potty trained.

Interestingly in relation to the article's point about rewards: the only
reward we introduced was parent/child dancing after using the toilet
successfully. And it continues 6 months later which is sort of adorable.

Also, we followed the advice of "dream pee's" where a parent wakes up 1-2
times a night to get a groggy toddler to pee while sleeping. It was successful
in removing all negotiations around diapers and eliminating them completely
from the conversation day or night. I feel eliminating potential sources of
misincentives or negotiation is something the author struggles with quite a
bit.

Oh, and although the process of the book above worked well for us. The tone of
the book can be a bit overbearing and annoyingly dismissive of fathers. But,
that seems to be the state of many parenting books so I have learned to ignore
it.

Finally, I believe the article is right that the super absorbent 4 hour
disposable diaper creates a issues when tackling all of this. Our kid was in
cloth diapers and was sort of ready to get rid of the diapers as well due to
the obvious discomfort. It is one of those pain now vs pain later sorts of
things it seems.

~~~
dd36
i didn’t even know parents tried potty training that early.

~~~
philips
In many places, where disposable diapers aren't used, the reinforcement
learning happens a bit earlier and more gradually.

We used cloth diapers and I believe it helped in the training process.

Also, changing diapers is not fun and I had a personal goal to not do it
longer than two years. :)

~~~
crooy
With respect to potty training, I can really recommend cloth diapers for 3
reasons (in order of importance):

cost: We estimated the total costs before we started with our first child, and
they would end up costing about the same as disposable diapers, however we
have used them for 2 kids now :-)

potty training: Both our kids were potty trained at the age of 2, with little
extraordinary effort, meaning the effort was constantly more since we have to
clean the diapers. Indeed scraping poop from cloth is a good incentive for
yourself to get them trained, so we combined the diapers with (but not very
strict) the use "elimination communication" ("baby zindelijkheids
communicatie" in Dutch). Simply put, we tried to keep diapers clean by holding
the baby over the potty when we thought they were going to do nr 1 or nr 2.

My thoughts on why cloth diapers are better is this: the kids feel discomfort
very clearly and immediately after the action, while the technologically
superior disposable diapers are simply too comfortable to get this immediate
action-response they need to learn by themselves, and indeed the first signs
they were ready for full time potty training was that they started telling us
the diaper was freshly made dirty.

environment: While honestly this is mostly based on my personal logic and not
so much on science, but I cannot imagine cloth diapers being as bad for the
environment as disposable diapers made from plastic and chemicals, event
taking into consideration they need to be washed.

~~~
beerandt
I can almost guarantee you're wrong about the environmental benefits,
depending on what diapers you use, where you live and how you wash. Using LCA,
it's usually an energy factor of 4x worse for cloth, 10x worse for water and
air emissions, and 6x worse for water use. And most of that is from the
washing, so prolonged use doesn't make it better.

It's literally one if the textbook examples taught in sustainability
Engineering to get students to stop "feeling" about the better option and
start thinking & documenting.

First Google result for "diaper LCA" :

[https://www.appropedia.org/Cloth_versus_disposable_diapers](https://www.appropedia.org/Cloth_versus_disposable_diapers)

That said, I have no problem with people picking what works for them. But
environmental justification and smugness... especially when it's downright
false.

Own up to your preference and accept the fact that it's environmentally worse.

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
Call me skeptical. That article only says that the creation, washing, and
drying of cloth diapers takes more “coal” energy than disposable diapers
dumped into a land fill. It says nothing about the design of cloth diapers, HE
washer dryers, etc, or the habits of those who cloth diaper.

Many cloth diapers now have two parts, a shell and an insert. Typically you
can use the shell multiple times, only washing the insert, which is made out
of absorbent bamboo fabric.

Also parents who cloth diaper are generally more environmentally conscious in
other ways. We have solar panels, a high efficiency washer/dryer, and can dry
the diapers on a laundry line for most of the year (pro tip: this really helps
remove most poop stains, especially from newborns!). In California I don’t
think _any_ PGE power comes from coal.

We’re already on our 3rd child with _the same set_ of cloth diapers, blowing
past this articles assumptions. Really, once you realize how much landfill
waste you’re saving you won’t go back. It does take extra work but so does a
lot of things about being a parent.

~~~
beerandt
It has a full LCA for both types, disposable and cloth. You didn't read far
enough. There's a summarizing table at the end, comparing results of both.

>We’re already on our 3rd child

It's mostly in the washing, extended use gains you almost nothing.

Even the most generous LCA (not using hot water or a dryer, and only washing
once per week) makes the impact almost equal.

>coal

Regardless of the energy source, 4x energy is 4x energy. If the grid is using
wind power, the factory likely is as well.

Feel free to find an LCA that reflects your use case, but don't assume it's
environmentally friendlier just because it's popular with a certain crowd.

Efficiencies of industrial scale can be hard to beat at home.

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
I totally get what you’re saying, and I’m surprised to see the data myself.
However I think if you asked someone if it’s better to use more water
(renewable) and power (clean) versus space in a landfill, I’m sure almost
everyone would say that the former is the better option.

People throw away _a lot_ of diapers.

~~~
beerandt
Landfill space isn't a problem though. And pulp is also renewable.

Also, people don't realize it, but whatever gets flushed ends up in a landfill
as well, in the form of wastewater sludge. In what ends up being a volume not
all that less than a wrapped up diaper. So you're not avoiding landfill use.

>almost everyone would say that the former is the better option.

Who? Not environmental or sustainability engineers.

Again, if cloth works for you, use it. There are plenty of good reasons to.
It's just the environment isn't one of them.

------
gregmac
This does highlight one thing I took away from my own experience (and from
talking to other parents): there is no one true path. Every kid is different.
There are dozens of "sure-fire" methods that completely conflict with each
other.

For every anecdote you hear of "we did x, it took two days and worked great"
you can find another where that method didn't even remotely work or backfired
in zany ways, like the article gets into.

Your kid is also still doing a crazy amount of developing at that age, so what
you think might work based on what you think their personality is may not, and
conversely something you think they'd never go for might just click.

~~~
Mathnerd314
I haven't gotten into the parenting business yet, but my impression is that it
also depends a lot on the parents. The article gets into this at the end when
it suggests outsourcing to more experienced day care providers because they
can read the signs better. Presumably this sign-reading skill is a learnable
skill like any other, but there's a danger zone where you think you know the
signs and actually don't.

~~~
tempay
My sister works in childcare and this is definitely in the case though it
doesn't work how many parents want. It often results in perfect trained
toddlers but only between the hours of 7am-6pm.

------
ipython
Oh I was in stitches by the end of this article! So eloquent and so relatable
to any parent who has gone through this.

We are still struggling with our youngest one who is four. We have tried the
incentives, which worked until he figured out that he just didn’t care about
staying dry. Misaligned incentives, indeed.

~~~
azalemeth
Indeed. If they _like_ sitting in a wet one, you're kinda stuck from the game
theory point of view!

------
dctoedt
FTA: "Our daughter realized that by holding back, she could convert one trip
to the toilet into two or three, and thus triple her frog consumption. The
economist Tim Harford likens this effect to the way pole-vaulter Sergei Bubka,
who was paid a cash bonus each time he broke the world record, chose to do it
a centimeter at a time. That’s the risk you face when you set down clear,
objective rules for rewards: you often get what you pay for."

------
adimitrov
I don't understand people who potty train that late. What are you, masochists?
You can start potty training around the time they can sit, probably 6 months.
Babies have a pee-reflex, where they start peeing as soon as cold air hits
their genitals. So as early as 4 months, our son peed in the potty almost
every time we sat him there.

Also, the regular poops are actually a thing among many babies. There's an app
for that: lots of apps allow you to track diapering. You'll see patterns, and
you can start putting your baby on the potty more frequently then. It requires
involvement and patience, but you didn't just get a baby because you wanted to
plop them in front of the TV until they're ready to move out, no?

The further advantage is that the baby does not experience potties as a
novelty, but as a fact of life as it grows into consciousness. This way, it
has a lower chance of rejecting them outright.

Also, use cloth diapers, seriously. It's not that bad. And the cost you pay
for plastic diapers, both monetary and environmental, but _also_
developmental, is very high.

~~~
hazza1
Potty training at 6 months sounds like the masochists approach. Why would you
train before they can physically get on a potty? Yes, they pee all the time at
4 months, do they really gain much being held on a potty?

I don't want to plop a baby in front of TV but likewise I wouldn't want their
early months to be all about the potty.

When they're ready, if they've had a rounded start to life it's a just another
simple transition.

~~~
loganwedwards
+1. For our family, it is not worth the stress of enforcing this new behavior
until our child actively exhibit signs that they are ready for this endeavor.
Maybe we have late bloomers, but it’s on average around 2 or 3 years old
before they become potty trained. Yes, it is expensive and not great for the
environment with the mountains of diapers we consume, but this method is still
worth my sanity.

------
frankbreetz
My child is currently running around yelling "I wanna put a diaper on!" We are
three days into just let him run around without a diaper and he has only had a
couple accidents, but man does he hate it.

~~~
flatiron
I have three. One out of diapers (6) and two in (just 3 and 1) and we tried
everything with the 6 year old to get her potty trained. Finally the doctor
told us to simply lay off for a little and have her bring it up. Sure enough 2
weeks later she simply said she was done with diapers and that was that. We
are currently doing the cookie per potty time for my 3 year old and it’s going
fairly well. Potty training is the worst. Good luck.

~~~
eru
Just curious, isn't 3 pretty old to be in diapers?

I guess just different customs in different parts of the world.

~~~
james-skemp
Depends upon the child. A coworker mentioned that she knew a child in
preschool or kindergarten that was still using diapers.

Everyone is different. We're hoping our two year old is close, but we thought
that six+ months ago too.

~~~
eru
I know that individual people are different. But I don't believe there's a big
innate group difference between today's American toddlers and 1980s East
German ones that makes the former as a group pee their pants for so much
longer?

------
hkt
This is great. We're potty training at the moment and it's hell, but this has
at least made me chuckle, and think.

------
jankotek
Start much much earlier on 6 month old.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/7-months-old-potty-train-
her/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/7-months-old-potty-train-her/)

------
primefactor97
We recently had our third child and I'm really appreciating the economic lens
here that I'll now channel when thinking through incentives for my children.

------
paultopia
Oh my god, does it really take so long to even start potty training them that
they're talking and reasoning and such before people do it? That's
horrifying... I had assumed that would be about the same time as they started
communicating like humans and walking about

~~~
bluedays
Like most things related to humans it is about how physiologically they are
developed. I tried potty training my daughter when she was 18 months, and she
would have accidents and look down with a pile of poop on the ground and
looked shocked. She couldn't understand what just happened.

We tried again at two years old and it was like night and day. She was already
running to the corner to go potty, so we understand she had developed
physiologically enough that we could get her to hold it and go sit on the
potty.

Also, like anything, physiological development and physical development is not
intrinsically linked. A child can walk and run, but they may not understand
exactly what would happen if they run -into- something.

Moral of the story? Having kids is hard, and nothing prepares you.

Once you understand though, and think you're ready for the next one... You're
still not prepared because they're all different.

------
mathdev
I thought it was going to be about training an economist.

------
jonaf
Parent of 4 here, ages 6, 5, 2, and 8 months. My oldest two are special needs.
Some thoughts from my POV...

My oldest wasnt trained until about 4.5 years. It took around 6 months to a
year for him to pick it up consistently. Hes still not trained for overnight
though. It makes me feel like a failure as a father. We have always used
disposable diapers with him.

My second (5) has been out of diapers during the day for nearly 2 years. She
consistently uses the toilet for bowel movements but fails to urinate in the
toilet every time, except when I take her on a timer/regular interval. We
aren't sure why she has this problem or how to remediate it. We are very
concerned as she begins kindergarten this year. We always used disposable
diapers with her, and I feel like a failure as a father on this, too.

We just began potty training with my 2 year old. We are 3 or 4 days into it,
and he is already independently going to the restroom and following all the
rehearsed steps when he needs to urinate. We are having occasional accidents,
and he is catching on to the idea that urinating on himself is undesirable. We
offer him praise when he is successful, and no praise when he fails (we just
walk him through the process of washing off, replacing his clothing, etc so he
understands the outcome). He was cloth diapered exclusively until about 6
months ago when his younger brother started using up all the cloth diapers! He
hasn't had enough encounters with BMs to catch on to going to the restroom at
the appropriate time yet, but I'm confident we will get there soon.

My youngest is 8 months and we haven't started any such exercises yet, but it
sounds like it may be a good idea.

To echo the article's suggestion, possibly one of the most frustrating things
is potty training. Or maybe more frustrating, the lack of potty training. I
still awake to change diapers for four children every morning, and on average
theres at least one guaranteed BM for me to handle. (And let's be real, a 6
year old doesn't poop like a baby.) Although its nice not changing diapers of
my 5 year old anymore during the day, it comes at the cost of regular urine
cleanup / permanently stained furniture and HEAVY use of our washing machine.

If anyone knows any resources for training special needs children overnight
(or in the case of my 5 year old...anytime!), I would be super grateful. We
had a period of 2 years where both of my older children were in therapy
sessions between 20-40 hours/week, and sadly potty training efforts even by
trained therapists has been met with limited success. My current plan is to
stay the course, just practicing and hoping it all sinks in, especially before
my 5 year old starts school, as I don't want her to suffer this embarrassment
(and I certainly worry about the way she will be treated/educated as its
understandably difficult and even frustrating to deal with this particular
kind of problem; for example, we enrolled my then-4 year old in a private
kindergarten program last year, but after 2 days the school informed us that
unfortunately they cannot manage her and she would not be allowed to attend).

