
Unquantified - jstanley
https://nomasters.io/posts/unquantified/
======
sewercake
I think I largely agree with his reflection(s): easily obtainable metrics to
track physical fitness / health often do more harm than good.

But I can't help but think that partial quantification of the self could still
be extremely useful, it's just that virtually all diet/fitness applications
are focused on calorie counting and weight-loss. They should be focused on
increasing bodily awareness. How long does it take for food to pass through?
How often do you poop? What are those poops like? When you eat X, how do you
feel an hour later, two hours later, three hours later?

If you begin tracking _these_ kinds of metrics, then you could become aware of
how different foods, sleep patterns, etc, affect your mood, and subjective
energy levels.

This kind of self knowledge -- whose discovery could be aided by some good UX,
is fantastic. The only kinds of health applications that seem to take this
moderately serious are period tracking apps.

~~~
Ensorceled
I recommend “the plan” by Lyn-Genet Recitas, because it takes a systematic
approach to figuring out what foods have bad effects on you personally. I
found, for instance, potatoes give me minor gastrointestinal distress and eggs
make my girlfriend slightly depressed.

~~~
lookACamel
>eggs make my girlfriend slightly depressed.

Possibly due to the choline content.

~~~
Bartweiss
Wait, choline as a cause of feeling depressed? This one is totally news to me,
can you point me to any more info?

------
mattsfrey
I actually disagree with this heavily. It's feel good, for sure, but if you
are looking for measurable results in almost any endeavor, then keeping
metrics is almost textbook in increasing the chance of success. "That which
gets measured gets improved". Human beings are inherently flawed and subject
to natural impulses, adding in objective metrics is a way of taming that.
Intuition is not going to help you make linear progress in small increments
over a long period of time. Studies of weight loss for example repeatedly show
you need to be keeping some metric such as weight or measuring body inches etc
to keep on track and be able to guide your decisions each week. "intuitive
eating" is a new fad but there is virtually no data to back up that it works
at all.

EDIT: To add,I speak as somebody who lost 160lbs over two years after years of
yo-yoing. I find it very unlikely you would be able to do this without
tracking progress and having metrics to guide you.

~~~
jacobolus
> _if you are looking for measurable results in almost any endeavor, then
> keeping metrics is almost textbook_

This seems like a tautology...

What if you aren’t looking for measurable results?

~~~
ben_w
If you aren’t looking for measurable results, how do you know when you
succeed? Perhaps you were already there before you started?

~~~
michaelt
They might be looking for results that can be detected, but only by
subjective, noisy measures.

You know, questions like "Am I enjoying a good life with my family?" and "Will
I look back on this with pride in the future?" and stuff like that.

~~~
douglaswlance
You can journal those things and use sentiment analysis to detect if you're
moving in the right direction.

~~~
jstanley
But you're more likely to succeed in those goals if you stop worrying about
stuff like that and just get on with enjoying your short time in this world.

~~~
douglaswlance
I have seen no evidence to support that assertion.

Life is short relative to what? You will only experience one life, so to you,
life is both infinitely long and only a brief moment. Life is what you make
it; so you should make the most of it by applying scientific rigor to
maximizing what is important to you.

~~~
jacobolus
You might enjoy Alfie Kohn’s book _Punished by Rewards_ , which rigorously
explores the demotivational and anti-creative effects of scoring things.
[https://amzn.com/B01K0RH8L6](https://amzn.com/B01K0RH8L6)

------
jjaredsimpson
I think none of this matters except one change: going from fours hours of
sleep to eight.

I'm interested in QS, but the metrics aren't the ends they are the means.
Increased subjective satisfaction is always my goal.

When I run I don't track pace but I do track time and I start each run with an
idea of what my RPE for that run will be. My goal is to decrease time when RPE
is fixed. So some days I run hard and some I don't because I'm not always
trying to set a PB.

If metrics are guardrails that you are gonna crash into over and over while
attempting to change behavior then you won't like QS. Not tracking your bad
behavior doesn't make it go away. It just makes you ignorant.

~~~
ovao
> Not tracking your bad behavior doesn't make it go away. It just makes you
> ignorant.

In some sense, ignorance can be bliss, which I think the article hints at. I
used to diligently track my workouts, for example, seeking clear and
measurable improvement over time. If I could knock out 30 consecutive chin-ups
in one session, I expected >= 30 consecutive pull-ups in the next. What I
failed to realize is that progress isn't actually made by means of observed
improvement -- progress is actually significantly more subtle. And, because
it's deeply psychological...fuzzy.

At 32 years of age, I've realized that "bad behavior" is symptomatic of the
mindset of self, and _sometimes_ necessary. Sometimes my workouts will go very
poorly, for example. The quantified self laments those workouts, but the self-
accepting self accepts those poorer workouts as an inevitability. Sometimes
you simply cannot give it 100%; sometimes you'll fail.

Subjective satisfaction, as you put it, is the key to happiness. Do better
than you expect in the aggregate and largely ignore the specifics. The
specifics only bog you down.

~~~
fao_
> At 32 years of age, I've realized that "bad behavior" is symptomatic of the
> mindset of self, and sometimes necessary. Sometimes my workouts will go very
> poorly, for example. The quantified self laments those workouts, but the
> self-accepting self accepts those poorer workouts as an inevitability.
> Sometimes you simply cannot give it 100%; sometimes you'll fail.

Not to mention, that it's statistically impossible for you to infinitely
improve in _every_ workout. There are going to be good days and bad days, and
if your method of assessing metrics do not take those into account, then the
method is worthless.

There was a good article about relationships advice for people who hyperfocus
on things, and I think it's pertinent here. That basically, just because
things have levelled out or not _improved_ , or just because there has been a
momentary dip, doesn't mean that that is a negative thing. Any complex system,
whether it be the human body, interpersonal relations, or even just water has
ups and downs. Sometimes hyperfocusing on those downs, or predicting off those
dips can lead you to believe things that are false. Sometimes to get correct
information you have to zoom out a little.

Not to mention, that expecting 100% of yourself constantly is a surefire way
to burn out.

------
woah
Wow, I was always worried that I was missing out on all the benefits of
quantifying the self. Now it seems that things have come full-circle and my
lifestyle is in fact cutting-edge.

~~~
cfadvan
That’s always how fashion/fads work, if you wait long enough you’re cool
again. As a bonus you’ll have saved a ton of money and spared yourself untold
aggravation.

~~~
TeMPOraL
And missed all the cool parties.

There's an upside to following fashion, but it rarely has to do anything with
the actual merits of that fashion...

~~~
cfadvan
If the metaphorical parties require you to be fashion-obsessed, you missed
nothing.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I wasn't going for metaphorical. I've been to _actual_ parties for e.g.
startup people, and just showing up and talking with appropriate individuals
won me an unexpected invitation to an expensive Quantified Self event. I
didn't go, but I suspect that beyond the conference, there was a party planned
too.

~~~
cfadvan
Alright, in that case I can’t honestly disagree with your point, my bad.

------
AndrewKemendo
I don't mean this in a negative way, but measuring something, be it weight,
sleep whatever is useless without a goal metric and analysis of how behaviors
impact the measurements.

The written account linked here is surely incomplete, however anecdotally I
find that people use these systems expecting some kind of emergent property to
reveal itself and wham bam just like that, you can take steps to fix it.

In fact it's the reverse. Set a goal, begin measuring as much as you can,
tinker with the inputs, determine how input changes result in measured
outputs, iterate to vector measurement toward desired goal, repeat.

What I do get from this account is that, in agreement with most anecdotes I
have seen, they viewed this measurement system in the same "quick fix"
category as other things. Maybe not to such a degree as "24 hour Holywood
weight loss" drink but from a similar place.

I'm a firm believer in the quantified self concept, but I think it's
incredibly hard to actually do. It takes serious discipline and you need to
structure your life around it - the same way professional athletes or others
do. However if you have clear goals with measurable inputs and really do the
work required, it's incredibly powerful.

------
Barrin92
There's really two big issues with 'quant' mindsets. The first one is a 'if I
can't measure it, it doesn't exist' logic. Where people will mistake metrics
that are easily accessible with metrics that are meaningful. People who like
to take quantified approaches tend to drift towards methods that allow for
easy quantification regardless if they're appropriate or not.

The second one is, as the saying goes, that 'life is not lived in the
aggregate'. Quantified approaches give us general, macro ideas but may easily
be less appropriate than subjective or individual experiences if you only care
about specific cases (like your own well-being) to begin with. It's not always
appropriate to trade case-specific knowledge for general knowledge if all you
care about is one case.

Related to this is a loss of resolution. Aggregation ignores internal
dynamics. The national GDP or corporate performance might mask huge internal
divergence which again can result in instability, which then causes second
order effects. Those dynamics only really show up in qualitative models, not
data.

------
tw1010
A lot of unaccounted for psycological effects show themselves from underneath
the veil of unknown unknown factors once you shift the tools engineers have
developed, like logging and testing, into a different domain, an ecological
environment different from the one they evolved out of. The fact that there's
a stigma to mentioning that things that are hyped up cause you discomfort only
exacerbate the problem. Not everything that worked in engineering is
necessarily a good solution to problems in physiology.

------
swlkr
I also got rid of analytics on my websites as well. I figure if I make
something people like, someone will tell me thanks or maybe something wrong
with it that they want improved

~~~
Tepix
Having a normal access log (possibly with anonymized IP addresses) should
provide enough information for most private websites. I can't believe how many
sites share their traffic data with Google...

------
Pimpus
I agree with this post. Rationalizing based only on data can lead to flawed
conclusions and bias. Obviously, quantification is useful in many domains, but
when it comes to your health then the worst thing you can do is ignore your
intuition on the basis of data.

I also don’t keep any metrics of my website, not even page hits. It’s a hard
sell to other webmasters, but I personally don’t want to start writing for the
wrong reasons. I think quantification is responsible for a lot of evils in our
world today — and a lot of good too. I’m focusing a lot on where
quantification can be applied for the benefit of one’s spirit, rather than
one’s greed.

------
RyJones
This puts in to words something I've been struggling with. My Apple Watch
gives me enough information that I've gone to see my PCP twice for non
problems.

However.

I've had good reason to pay attention the last few years.

I think I'll let go now.

[https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/04/half-the-person-i-was-
be...](https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/04/half-the-person-i-was-before/)

[https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/07/fully-quantified-
self-2/](https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/07/fully-quantified-self-2/)

------
vibrolax
The author also chose to emigrate to a minimally quantified society with
abundant warmth, natural light balanced with natural dark. "Pura Vida" isn't
just a marketing expression in Costa Rica.

------
daniel-levin
I used to be utterly obsessed with QS. I strongly believe that you can only
manage what you measure. With that said, I've also found that quantification
can have an emotional downside for individuals, especially when the stakes are
low. However, this can be controlled or avoided. My suggestion is to passively
track these things without using them as a target. That is, I recommend using
only derived metrics as decision making aids. It also avoids Goodhart's Law
[0]. Measures that become targets lose their value as measures. I also think
that it's easy to start fetishizing the data, like becoming obsessed with
small changes in weight or contributions on Github. Metrics descend to
"mindless dopamine fixes" but this need not be the case. Metrics should inform
decisions like "do I quit this expensive gym membership or stick it out?" or
"Does a third cup of coffee in the afternoon improve my performance enough to
justify the caffeine jitters?"

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law)

------
thanatropism
"The removal of the alarm clock was also a big change for me. In Austin, I
would get up early, go workout, or get up early and work before work (I spent
most of my last 2 years in Austin as the CTO at a Series A funded startup and
the quiet hours of the morning before my wife and daughter woke up were the
only real quiet ours I had all day)... Now I get around eight hours of sleep
per night because I prioritize sleep. The sun sets very early here, currently
around 18:00, so I’m typically in bed by 21:30 and asleep by 22:00-22:30 and I
wake-up between 6-7 the next morning."

\---

This is someone who no longer lives with his daughter it seems?

I don't want to diagnose strangers over five blog posts on the internet, but
much of this blog reads like my last few weeks before a mental breakdown. I
hope the author is ok/remains ok in the short term.

~~~
rojoroboto
I’m fine. My daughter sleeps on her own through the night (sleep training. it
works.) and wakes up around 7am. Almost always after we do.

If this is, in fact, a few weeks before a mental breakdown, it would be quite
a suprise. I’ll be sure to keep you updated if it happens.

~~~
thanatropism
Thanks for replying. I've had bad experiences in life; I'm glad you're not
having them. (Honest)

------
stevenkovar
Perhaps the author feels comfortable with their new minimalist approach
_becasue_ of his history of quantification—not in spite of it.

Data begets intuition. He doesn't need to see the data because he understands
the related symptoms of his goals.

~~~
kossae
I think this is the likely reason. For instance, 5 years ago when I'd never
tracked a calorie in my life, I had no idea how bad most of the things I was
eating were for me, or even how good some of the other things were.
Quantifying this over time, as well as similar recording for workouts, got me
to the point where if you took the tracking tools away I would still be able
to roughly (but accurately) gauge both food intake and fitness progression
intuitively.

------
ssijak
These guys thoughts resonate 100% with me. I did the same things (including
his previous blog posts that he links) over the past 6-12months and I am very
happy with it.

It is difficult at first to break hard-wired patterns, but after you do it you
feel more alive and in control. Also, you start to see how people live 90% of
their lives on autopilot consuming content and stuff that the most competent
(and competent is really a very nice word for what they really are) producer
put in front of them.

------
yellowboxtenant
I agree the following two items have made me happier:

1\. Removing my alarm clock and all electronic devices when I sleep 2\. Stop
measuring all exercise

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Keloo
One can get an idea of how many views the blogpost have depending on the HN
thread upvotes (no need for js or analytics) :D

------
pokemongoaway
I tried to infect a quantified self company with the same gist about 7y ago.
They did quite well at first, but failed to continue innovating in my point of
view. Anyway, whenever my ideas were gaining traction the marketing head would
convince the CEO that my ideas would be bad for the company. Now I'll never
know :P

------
amelius
I'd say perhaps limit quantification to say 15 minutes a day. That way you can
have the positive effects, and also prevent the negative effects.

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phantom_oracle
> There is a secondary benefit that I’ve addressed in the post
> nonparticipation in that I also no longer share those intimate details of
> myself to startups and third parties who are pressured to monetize that
> data. By going unquantified I’m in complete alignment with nonparticipation
> in _toxic adTech driven panopticon of surveillance capitalism_

I wonder what epiphany the author had to start/change his opinion on the ad-
driven model.

~~~
rojoroboto
This is a fascinating question. I’ll have to think about that one and see if I
can figure out the root of it.

