
George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’ - gatsby
https://electrek.co/2016/10/28/george-hotz-cancels-his-tesla-autopilot-like-comma-one-after-request-from-nhtsa/
======
phasmantistes
I love this paragraph of the Request:

> The singular includes the plural; the plural includes the singular. The
> masculine gender includes the feminine and neuter genders; and the neuter
> gender includes the masculine and feminine genders. "And" as well as "or"
> shall be construed either disjunctively or conjunctively, to bring within
> scope of this Special Order all responses that might otherwise be construed
> to be outside the scope. "Each" shall be construed to include "every", and
> "every" shall be construed to include "each". "Any" shall be construed to
> include "all", and "all" shall be construed to include "any". The use of a
> verb in any tense shall be construed as the use of the verb in a past or
> present tense, whenever necessary to bring within the scope of the document
> requests all responses which might otherwise be construed to be outside its
> scope.

I've seen similar paragraphs on other legal documents, but this is the most
thorough I've seen. It's basically just a huge middle finger to all (any?)
armchair lawyers who want to weasel out of the order.

~~~
phjesusthatguy3
It didn't spell out what the definition of 'is' is, though.

~~~
firasd
The part about verb tenses is specifically referring to the "what 'is' is"
loophoole.

------
Analemma_
He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA
wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here:
[https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special...](https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special-
Order-Directed-to-Comma-ai)). Like, how dare the government try to have basic
standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human
input.

I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn't all
delusional technolibertarian assholes, but guys like this sure aren't making
my case easy.

~~~
BurningFrog
If you read the letter, it's a lot more than "answering a few questions".

He gets two weeks to provide an enormous amount of detailed information about
the product, I assume under threat of legal consequences if any of it contains
an error, interspersed with lots of reminders that they can and will close
down his business if they feel like it.

~~~
6stringmerc
Yeah it seems a lot of the community here thinks that if he just threw
together a few bullet points in an email response the NHTSA would sit back,
say "Okay, great have fun!" and not, you know, make a big deal out of it. I,
uh, disagree.

~~~
DanBC
I more thinking "why the hell doesn't he have the answers already?"

~~~
6stringmerc
Having mentioned this elsewhere, I have first-hand experience going between
SMEs and X/Y/Z bureaucratic entities for half a decade and there's a big
difference between "having the answers you think are satisfactory" and
"providing answers that they think are satisfactory." GI Joe pointed this out
long ago in that "Knowing is half the battle" and putting it into a work
product that accomplishes its task is the other half of the battle in this
case (with no guarantees the responses provided will end the inquiry / threat
of fines).

~~~
taco_emoji
That doesn't really answer the question. You don't need first-hand experience
to know that government red tape is onerous. It was flatly predictable that
the NHTSA -- the government agency concerned with roadway safety -- would make
such inquiries. So why didn't Comma work with the NHTSA and get their blessing
before announcing a release date?

I mean yeah, it sucks that the government is so darn picky about things, but
that's not an excuse to just skip the process. They should have hired someone
like _you_ from the start to ensure that their ducks were in a row when they
were ready to release.

------
droopybuns
The comments in this thread make me realize that there is a large amount of HN
readers who have never had to deal with the government.

Yes, the penalty is scary looking, but it is par for the course. You don't get
exposed to it if you are doing amateur/freelance/e-commerce.

As soon as you touch critical national infrastructure (Telcom, NTSB,
Healthcare, finance) then you have to deal with the government, which never
forgets to remind you of the threat of authorized violence and financial
penalties.

If you want to play at the high stakes tables, you have to pay the blinds. If
that's too scary, then stay at the smaller tables.

The unfairness commentary here is pretty naive.

~~~
xemdetia
I feel like another part missing in the comments here is that most US
regulations allow an individual pretty extensive free reign when it comes to
risky ventures (see experimental aircrafts, make your own guns, electronic
devices and a couple others). The regulation hammer really kicks in once you
start trying to market it to other people, or 'what are you actually selling
to people.'

~~~
r0m4n0
Yea I totally agree with you here. If he hadn't said he was selling this
product and branded it so, he most definitely would have some interesting
arguments under most of these regulations and verbiage in the letter. What
happens if I install a little motor that controls my own pedals and steering
wheel? What if I blogged about it? What if I tried to sell it? I think there
were a lot of poor decisions made by hotz

------
brianbreslin
Something seems fishy to me. Cruise which GM bought for $1B a few months back
was working on similar tech. Having only raised $3M he could have EASILY sold
his tech/team to Chrysler or Ford or Hyundai, or any other car company for
$100M and made his investors super happy and himself very rich.

So why "quit" when the feds ask you to deal with regulations that involve
passenger safety. Its not like he had to spend $20M on clinical trials.

~~~
idsout
He posted the answer to this on Twitter: "Would much rather spend my life
building amazing tech than dealing with regulators and lawyers. It isn't worth
it."

Money isn't everything to some people. He has the true hacker ethos.

~~~
sharpercoder
For me, hacking is about understanding systems and altering them in a way they
behave favourably to you. The right thing to do when a regulator fires letters
to you is to build a firewall of managers and/or lawayers to ensure they don't
penetrate the hacking activity.

------
firasd
I find it interesting that he was on This Week in Startups only a few weeks
ago calling every company he found unconvincing "losers"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zy_07g2IrM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zy_07g2IrM)

Maybe they're all losers and you're a winner, but perhaps being an elite hax0r
isn't all that's needed to go to market...

If you can't reply to a regulator letter, how are you going to deal with
supply chain or cash flow issues? Bad reviews in the press or on Amazon?
People who want refunds? Not to mention the literal horror of a car crash. To
borrow a term injected into this election season, you gotta have Stamina.

~~~
devy
Keep in mind that given Geohot's promise of "shipping" comma one by 2016 EOY,
it's impossible to keep that promise if they have to deal with regulatory
agencies and certifications stuff. And there are probably other countries and
markets with much lax requirements, I think this is probably the main reason
he cancelled the product on U.S.

On the other hand, I am really concerned that he and his team didn't appear to
think about working with the government agencies beforehand to sort out any
regulatory requirements in order to prevent this kind of situation. Shocked!

~~~
phkahler
>> On the other hand, I am really concerned that he and his team didn't appear
to think about working with the government agencies beforehand to sort out any
regulatory requirements in order to prevent this kind of situation. Shocked!

Well consider the attitude of SV hackers toward the established auto industry.
They think we're a bunch of... I dunno... rust-belt, old-school, last century,
bumblefucks who don't understand technology. Given that attitude it probably
never occurred to him that there might be people or even regulators taking
this stuff way more seriously than him.

------
dibstern
It's difficult to be sure about George.

He spoke so derisively about other companies that failed to deliver, and now
because of the inevitable paperwork that comes with a product that takes over
your car for you at times (level-3 autonomy iirc), he too fails to deliver.

If he leaves to join Tesla, it seems pretty irresponsible, given that he's
raised $3.1M and has a team of employees relying on him.

But that's all speculation until we see what comes next.

Perhaps I'm unimaginative at ~1:30am, but I can't imagine what he wants
comma.ai to do, unless he sells or licenses the product to automakers who can
do the paperwork for him.

~~~
tedmiston
He could return the unused funds still.

------
wyldfire
Wow, sometimes I wish HN came with a "context, please" button. ;)

It's a self driving car (or rather a prototype of an "autopilot" feature like
Tesla's), AFAICT.

From [1]:

> After a couple miles, Hotz lets go of the wheel and pulls the trigger...
> Hotz shouts, “You got this, car! You got this!”

> The car does, more or less, have it. ... Amazed, I ask Hotz what it felt
> like the first time he got the car to work.

> “Dude,” he says, “the first time it worked was this morning.”

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-
driv...](http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-driving-car/)

~~~
mikeash
It does have such a button! It's the comments button. Of course, it relies on
enterprising users such as yourself to make it happen. You have created what
you wished for!

And just to confirm, your summary is correct. It's not self-driving, but it is
lane keeping and intelligent cruise control adequate for fully automatic
highway driving in normal circumstances, like Tesla's current Autopilot is. It
was to be an aftermarket accessory that could be installed by the buyer,
presumably hooking into the OBD2 port and controlling existing servos. The
initial release was to focus on a small number of Honda and Acura models which
already have lane assist and cruise control features, but not as
sophisticated, so it was able to take advantage of that existing hardware and
extend its functionality.

------
hangonhn
Wow. If he really moves his project to China to take advantage of a lax
regulatory environment even though he couldn't pass the scrutiny in the US,
he's being very immoral and cavalier about people's lives in China.

I don't understand how a startup like Cruise can get past this regulatory
hurlde in the US but Hotz can't.

~~~
csours
Programming a neural network to learn to drive is fun; dealing with lawyers is
not.

I don't think it is a matter of passing the regulatory hurdle; it's a matter
of not wanting to deal with it.

~~~
tmalsburg2
So did he naively expect that he would not have to deal with the legal issues?

~~~
eropple
His rep (from people I know who know him personally) is such that actually
doing anything that doesn't involve a computer sending him into paroxysms of
rage sounds completely in-character.

~~~
tmalsburg2
Someone should have told the people who funded him.

~~~
tedmiston
Led by a16z [1], and I think the partner is Chris Dixon.

[1]: [https://medium.com/@cdixon/comma-
ai-e62eea5fa8d2](https://medium.com/@cdixon/comma-ai-e62eea5fa8d2)

------
antirez
Given how reasonable the NHTSA request looks, to give up so quickly is a bit
suspicious. In products like that it is likely that the first 50% looks much
more approachable, and then as you try to reach something that can actually be
shipped to customers, you have to solve huge problems incrementally, and it is
very hard. So looks like a bit of an excuse to stop it: if you have the
working thing you try harder before giving up IMHO.

~~~
macspoofing
I agree. I think he hit a wall with his tech, realized it and was looking for
an out.

------
lawnchair_larry
Nobody who is familiar with George is surprised by this. It's unfortunate that
his ego has a scapegoat, however. I guess this time he couldn't find anyone on
IRC to finish the hard parts for him and let him take the credit.

~~~
throwaway2016a
> I guess this time he couldn't find anyone on IRC to finish the hard parts
> for him and let him take the credit.

I feel like there is some backstory here I've never heard.

~~~
Relys
Backstory here:
[https://twitter.com/comex/status/709868908161929216](https://twitter.com/comex/status/709868908161929216)

------
tetrep
a little more detail from techcrunch:
[https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/comma-ai-cancels-the-
comma...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/comma-ai-cancels-the-comma-one-
following-nhtsa-letter/)

It seems that Hotz said, “dealing with regulators and lawyers… isn’t worth
it.”

Which seems very unfortunate/shortsighted due to how useful this tech could
be. Why not hire someone to deal with them for you?

~~~
jacquesm
That may be just a fig-leaf to plaster over 'we couldn't do it'. It's one
thing to release software, it's quite another thing to release this software
and have it tested, audited and certified safe and that's definitely part of
the process of delivering software that is critical to the well being of the
users and the other people you're sharing the road with.

And that second part is part-and-parcel of wanting to operate in this space.

~~~
snotrockets
An ex-colleague of mine used to say the difference between a software engineer
and a real engineer is that the latter's signature is criminally binding.

We can refuse to be real engineers (it is a great responsibility), but then we
should drop the title.

~~~
jacquesm
I'm 100% in agreement with that. Engineers carry responsibility for their work
(and do so with pride).

------
nzjrs
Hopefully his example is shown to every engineering class along side the
Tacoma Narrows bridge collapse example.

He is truly an example of an irresponsible engineer and a great lesson to
learn from.

------
j2bax
The dude is brilliant no doubt... But this space requires brilliance and a lot
of spine. That is what makes someone like Musk so unique. Someone thats
willing to risk it all, and won't let doors closing in their face and public
opinion hinder them. I hope Hotz can put his ego aside and go work with
someone that can handle the bureaucracy and red tape. He is surely a prodigy
and it would be a shame if the world can't benefit from his ideas.

------
shraken
I'm not involved in the machine vision field but I found his commitment to
open and transparent academic publishing very admirable.

He published a paper with their summer intern here:
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1608.01230.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1608.01230.pdf)

~~~
assface
This is not peer-reviewed. This is a tech report. Anybody can post these.

~~~
claudius
Well, you usually need a university address or some endorsers to post to the
arxiv, but true, most people could probably post that.

On the other hand, the arxiv is also the default method of communication in
quite a few fields (physics and maths, mostly), to the point that while grant
committees etc. look at your peer-reviewed papers, I essentially only check
the arxiv for new developments, not the plethora of properly peer-reviewed
journals.

------
kejaed
Haven't we heard this story countless times from projects on sites like
Kickstarter before? There is a huge difference between tinkering in your
garage and creating a production product.

Whether it's something that falls under government regulations like Hotz's
project, or transitioning from a couple of 3D-printed models in your basement
to an injection molded factory, making things (at scale and in the real world)
is hard.

------
msane
I'm just amazed at what a bad name that is. _" Comma One"_... Did they never
think that it would be called the _The Coma One_ after even the slightest
inevitable incident? Or that a segment of people will be innocently
misspelling it as "Coma" everywhere? and how quickly it could catch on?

It's so obvious it seems almost Freudian ...

~~~
web007
It's not a great name, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume
it's "all things AI". Think classification language, like "Car, Self-Driving".
They could be "Car, AI" and "Assistant, AI".

Less charitably, it's step one toward Tres Commas.

~~~
henrikschroder
Given that he referenced the HBO show in his Techcrunch presentation, I'd say
the reference to the three comma club is probably the most likely.

Also, one comma would be $1000, which is what the thing was supposed to cost.

~~~
msane
I don't know if it was ever intended as a consumer facing name, but even
without the "coma" puns, it's too wonky for customers, do you think?

Besides, isn't one comma 99k worth of room? It's marketing lingo aimed at the
hubris of venture capitalists.

~~~
msane
/ or yeah a bit from Silicon Valley, got it.

------
6stringmerc
Do I think Hotz has a viable product? Yes. (A comment over at Jalopnik linked
to a Tweet where an actual human rider / journalist experienced the Hotz
vehicle and was quite impressed)

Do I think there's significant political pressure to have his product, ahem,
driven into the ground as to not be a viable competitor to larger firms? Yes.

Do I think it's a sign of immaturity to pack up your stuff and leave when
confronted by a small challenge? Yes.

Do I think dealing with the NHTSA (and potential NTSB) is a small challenge?
No.

Am I still a fan of George Hotz as both an inventor, innovator, and persona?
Yeah, I can see where he's coming from.

Do I think it's hilarious that a vocal contingent here criticizes him for
taking a "path of least resistance" (regulation) in his development and
iteration process? Absolutely.

~~~
defen
> Do I think Hotz has a viable product? Yes. (A comment over at Jalopnik
> linked to a Tweet where an actual human rider / journalist experienced the
> Hotz vehicle and was quite impressed)

Journalists being shown demos in controlled circumstances are a notoriously
unreliable source of information about the viability of a product.

~~~
6stringmerc
Oh come on, do you understand the concept of journalism? It's a reporting
profession. It's not goddamn PR.

~~~
defen
I'm just saying that there are many cases where "a single instance of a
journalist having a good experience with a revolutionary pre-release product"
turned out to have been the company deliberately misleading the journalist.
I'm not claiming that happened here, but I am claiming there is a non-
negligible chance it happened.

~~~
6stringmerc
Fair enough, I'm not trying to say the profession is 100% on the up and up and
you're right, people can be manipulated. That doesn't mean it's reasonable to
prima-face like you did and dismiss a journalist's impressions (being cited on
an Auto enthusiast site mind you) as worthless. It just struck a nerve because
I'm a pretty cynical person but do my best to weigh what I've seen / gathered,
and while I do admit I think George is an interesting underdog type character
and sympathetic in that regard (so to speak), I'm noticing a lot of open
hostility toward the product being cloaked in dislike of the person.

~~~
got2surf
I'd agree with this. The journalist in question (Alex Roy,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Roy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Roy))
is an auto enthusiast and race driver, and is well respected even in auto
enthusiast circles, which are notoriously anti-self-driving-cars.

Journalists can be manipulated, but Alex Roy's tweet
([https://twitter.com/AlexRoy144/status/791996855114694657](https://twitter.com/AlexRoy144/status/791996855114694657))
is more an endorsement by a car enthusiast with 30+ years of high performance
driving experience than a journalist, IMO.

~~~
6stringmerc
Thanks, I appreciate your context because I think such quality of sources
matter. In this instance, I thought it was appropriate to include a 3rd party
of sorts who really doesn't have skin in the game.

------
TheDrizzle43
I guess that makes Hotz one of the "jokers" now?

------
gwbas1c
The attitude in the tech industry is to ship buggy products before they are
complete. I'm so tired of wasting my time with buggy crap.

I think it's awesome that a government agency said that this practice is not
acceptable when someone's life is at stake.

------
tptacek
Here's what the Special Order demanded:

1\. Describe in detail how the comma one is installed in a vehicle and provide
a copy of installation instructions for the comma one.

2\. Describe in detail the advanced driver assistance features of the comma
one, including how those features differ from the existing features of the
vehicles in which the comma one is intended to be installed.

3\. Describe in detail how a vehicle driver uses the comma one and provide a
copy of user instructions for the comma one.

4\. Provide a detailed description of the conditions under which you believe a
vehicle equipped with comma one may operate safely. This description must
include

a. The types of roadways on which a vehicle equipped with comma one may
operate safely;

b. The geographic area in which a vehicle equipped with comma one may operate
safely;

c. The speed range in which a vehicle equipped with comma one may operate
safely;

d. The traffic conditions in which a vehicle equipped with comma one may
operate safely;

e. The environmental conditions in which a vehicle equipped with comma one may
operate safely;

f. The amount and type of driver inputs necessary for a vehicle equipped with
comma one to operate safely.

5\. Provide a detailed description of the basis for your response to Request
No. 4, including a description of any testing or analysis to determine safe
operating conditions for a vehicle equipped with comma one.

6\. Describe the steps you have taken or plan to take to ensure the safe
operation of a vehicle equipped with comma one, including but not limited to
automated shutoff of comma one features and owner education.

7\. Provide a list by make, model, model year or year of production of each
vehicle for which you support or anticipate supporting use of the comma one.

8\. Describe in detail any steps you have taken to ensure that installation of
the comma one in any supported vehicle does not have unintended consequences
on the vehicle’s operation.

9\. Describe the functionality of comma one, if any, if installed in an
unsupported vehicle.

10\. Have you done any analysis or testing of the impact or potential impact
of comma one on the vehicle’s compliance with the FMVSS? If yes, please
describe the analysis or testing in detail and provide supporting
documentation. If no, describe why not.

11\. Describe in detail how the comma one impacts a vehicle’s rearview mirror,
including whether it requires removal of the rearview mirror or the extent to
which it blocks or obstructs the rearview mirror.

12\. State your position on how the comma one does or does not affect a
vehicle’s compliance with FMVSS No 111, Review Mirrors (49 CFR 571.111), and
provide any supporting information or documentation to support your position.

13\. State the date on which you currently plan to begin selling the comma
one, and provide a list of all retailers and/or websites through which you
anticipate selling the comma one.

14\. State the date on which you currently plan to begin shipping the comma
one.

15\. Provide any other information which you believe supports the safety of
the comma one.

~~~
logfromblammo
Wow. I guess the first thing I'd do is file a FOIA request to see any Special
Orders they may have sent to Apple, Uber, Google, Tesla, GM, Ford, Mercedes
Benz, Volkswagen, Audi, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, and Volvo, and for copies of any
documentation received from those companies that would be responsive to the
demands in their own order or the order to comma.ai . Then I'd also request an
extension in the time to respond until such time as the documents responsive
to the FOIA request have been produced and read.

It would be so much easier to respond if you could just do exactly the same
thing that the larger players did.

Unless, of course, those other companies didn't have to produce any such
documentation. In that case, clearly, every last company working on autonomous
vehicle functions would have to receive a substantially similar order, post
haste. We wouldn't want anyone crying about _selective enforcement_ , after
all.

~~~
mikeash
Something tells me that serious companies involved in this space never
received any Special Orders because they reached out to and worked with the
NHTSA from the start, rather than trying to fly under the radar and then being
shocked! Shocked! When the government actually noticed them.

~~~
krmboya
This seems to make sense, given how I'm in the past few years starting to
realize how things actually work in the world..

------
izqui
Today, I can only paraphrase George's harsh bulling destructive feedback he
gave us on our startup:

George, "that wouldn't work" :)

~~~
luisivan
And days before that I was with him in a fundraising dinner and we were like
besties. Sociopaths.

(Edited to reflect the point more politely)

~~~
olegkikin
That's a very rude thing to say publicly.

------
coverband
I'm seeing a huge number of assumptions and assertions, but this is still
"developing news". I think it's equally likely that this device will be
brought to market at a later point when the start-up gathers the resources,
test results, and the lawyers that can handle the regulators.

------
samfisher83
He did release the dataset and some python scripts for training the model.

[https://github.com/commaai/research](https://github.com/commaai/research)

The last blog post talks about them having a system for the 2016 civic. I
guess maybe they will sell it on aliexpress?

------
sytelus
Here's Bloomberg article on Hotz's initial prototype:
[http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-
driv...](http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-driving-car/)

------
spectrum1234
Technically it sounds more like he is pivoting to other markets and tweaking
the product. I don't think he is giving the 3 million back to Andreessen.

~~~
6stringmerc
For a community that preaches iteration so consistently it's rather
hypocritical and hilarious to see so many responses basically thinking that
he's vaporware and moving operations to China because he can't hack it here in
the US - Occam's Razor would indicate less regulations in China would be a
path of least resistance to iteration of this sort.

Besides, if Hotz can get his car to navigate China before Musk can get his
product to not drive in the wrong lane in a fucking parking lot, then we've
got game on.

------
kamkha
Comma's main advantage over Tesla's Autopilot was, as I understand it, the use
of cameras to collect video data. Hotz presented that as the advantage at
TechCrunch Disrupt, at least, saying that he could beat Tesla's Autopilot
because he had full video data from a small smartphone app that he had test
users running as they drove while Tesla's vehicles had no video input.

I wonder if his choice to cancel Comma is related to Tesla's recent
announcement that all new Tesla vehicles would ship with a full video camera
outfit.

~~~
AceJohnny2
> _while Tesla 's vehicles had no video input._

This is factually incorrect.

Tesla vehicles rely on Mobileye [1] cameras to do its environmental analysis.
These cameras come with the processing hardware to analyze the sensor data
they're getting, and spits out environmental information that the _driver
assistance_ [2] can use to navigate the car.

Whether Tesla had access to the sensor data directly rather than just the
analyzed stream is not public information. Now that Mobileye broke up with
Tesla [3], it's unlikely they'll ever have it.

Mobileye has years of experience in dealing with the kind of visual data you
need to have on the road, such as crazy HDR (you want to be able to extract
useful information when the sun is glaring at you as well as in the dark woods
in the night, and be able to switch immediately as when you're going through a
tunnel). They've developed dedicated hardware to reliably and quickly do
object distance and velocity detection: this is exactly the scenario that a
"Real-Time OS" is made for. You cannot afford to be pre-empted and lose 5ms on
your analysis and miss an action frame.

Thinking you can pull this off reliably with a non-RTOS and consumer cameras
is... naive.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobileye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobileye)

[2] Mobileye's equipment was never rated for full-on "Autopilot", which is why
they were very unhappy with Tesla marketing their systems as such

[3] [http://www.wsj.com/articles/mobileye-ends-partnership-
with-t...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/mobileye-ends-partnership-with-
tesla-1469544028)

~~~
AceJohnny2
I should add, by the way, that while Teslas have onboard radar, it is not a
primary sensor, but a secondary discriminating sensor.

This was admitted by Musk on Twitter following the fatal crash in Florida:
[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121)

~~~
ceterum_censeo
It was a secondary discriminating sensor, but the latest Autopilot 8 upgrade
retasks radar to be "a primary control sensor without requiring the camera to
confirm visual image recognition": [https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-
autopilot-seeing-world-...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-
seeing-world-radar)

~~~
AceJohnny2
Indeed. And I absolutely do not trust them on it. Their radar hardware just
isn't good enough to reliably do that.

~~~
ceterum_censeo
Ditto. It also seems strange to be able to retask their radar from secondary
to primary control.

------
Freezerburnt
Personally, I think it's good to see this. I work on a small part of an ADAS
system being developed for a large Tier 1 supplier. They won't even look at
you if you haven't adhered to ISO 26262 development standards which add -
easily - 2 times the work that a normal development would take. And for good
reason.

I'd like to see GH's Failure Modes and Effects Analysis, Fault Tree Analysis,
Failures in Time Analysis, etc., etc., etc.

This stuff is really safe and not there yet for a REASON.

------
cakeface
When is the open source project to create self driving systems going to start?
I feel very uncomfortable with private corporate AI driving me around and
making decisions with my family's life in the balance. For me, I need to be
able to see the code, change the code, change the weightings and priorities.
I've been thinking about FOSS solutions to car computers a lot and it seems
like it is really the only way to go if you care about freedom, security and
privacy.

~~~
inimino
Probably about ten years after it's commercially available.

------
singularity2001
The government threatening him to pay a penalty of $21,000 per day(!) before
even selling the product sure didn't inflict affection from his side.

[0]
[https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special...](https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special-
Order-Directed-to-Comma-ai)

~~~
mikeash
They're just asking for information at this point. The penalty is if he
doesn't provide that information by the deadline. I'm sure being threatened
with such a penalty isn't pleasant, but it's hardly unusual. I mean, just
about every little government form I send in has a section that starts out
with, "Under penalties of perjury, I declare that...."

------
helpless_slav
There's gotta be something else, no way one letter makes you scrap a product
like this, I fail to believe it

------
CobrastanJorji
I've been thinking for a while now that the main threat to the existence of
self-driving cars in the medium-term future is that somebody, in the rush to
beat Google, jumping the gun and selling cars that kill people cause Congress
to knee-jerk outlaw the whole thing.

------
8_hours_ago
Do third-party "autopilot" systems require ISO 26262 certification? I know
that car manufacturers and tier-1s spend lots of time and money getting their
safety-critical code certified. Do the same requirements not apply to
aftermarket solutions?

Actually, now that I think about this more... does Tesla's autopilot have ISO
26262 certification? I hope that the recent advancements in self-driving cars
isn't a result of tech companies bending or breaking the rules, but I don't
know enough about when ISO 26262 is required (if at all).

------
krmboya
I hope he backs down a bit, consults widely and work with the regulators
looking into his company's product, even while exploring other markets.

Still personally rooting for him because I personally think his product is
amazing, and is poised to be a huge success if he does ship.

As an outsider, his audacity, backed by proven technical smarts, seems to be
the quality that should define the Silicon Valley startup scene, but over
time, sentiments here at HN and other forums seem to suggest otherwise.

------
dev360
The following quote from his site speaks volumes about the hubris:

"we didn't do anything wrong, but somehow, we lost \-- nokia, or car companies
in 5 years"

------
losteverything
<<George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’ after request from
NHTSA

What is the role of the national highway transportation safety administration
wrt driver less card and trucks?

Can they issue rules? Can they prevent deployment? Is it for cars and trucks?
Once driverless exists will there have to be a differentiator for auto/truck?

~~~
toomuchtodo
> Can they issue rules? Can they prevent deployment? Is it for cars and
> trucks?

Yes. They are a federal regulatory agency.

------
jfornear
Hotz started an AI company and the autopilot system was a relevant application
but not the core product or mission.

------
tawya
"The difference is shipability."

------
iuguy
Not everything we do is a success, and there are many reasons for our failures
when they happen. The trick is to lick your wounds, learn from your mistakes
and get back on the horse as soon as you're able to.

I hope George learns all the lessons he needs from this to make whatever
happens next a success.

------
jason_slack
Why does the document from the NHTSA look like a court order..formatted like
something you would receive when getting sued, etc? Is this standard format to
request that questions be answered?

It looks more intimidating and scary than a friendly "hey, we want info about
your product".

~~~
jacquesm
That's to make sure you understand that if you ignore the document there will
be consequences.

------
RickS
Reading the letter seemed somewhat tame until the end - fined $21k/day for
noncompliance. Ouch.

~~~
rtkwe
It's not really out of the ordinary. The fines provide an actual known
incentive to actually respond and not brush the letter off.

------
got2surf
In the discussion on Jalopnik (a fairly large auto-enthusiast site), someone
mentioned that Alex Roy had a good experience riding in a comma one-equipped
car
([https://twitter.com/AlexRoy144/status/791996855114694657](https://twitter.com/AlexRoy144/status/791996855114694657)).

I thought this was an interesting perspective - Alex Roy is famous in car
enthusiast circles for his driving records over the past 30 years. He's set
speed records with drives across the US and around Manhattan, and has set
electric/semi-autonomous records in a Tesla Model S in August 2016.

The point being that Alex Roy has probably spent more time thinking about
driving, planning trips, and understanding traffic rules than most other
people alive today. His perspective is just a single perspective, but given
his massive experience with car-driver systems I think it's an interesting
perspective.

------
daveloyall
The commenters on that twitter thread are critical of geohot for "rolling over
easily".

I don't think we should presume that the guy who defied Sony, AT&T, Apple, and
the DCMA is doing any such thing.

Maybe he discovered a flaw in the design of comma AI or something.

~~~
mikeash
Then maybe he should have said so. Criticizing him based on his own
description of why it's canceled is entirely reasonable. He got a letter from
the NHTSA and immediately said he was done because he didn't want to deal with
it. He's either rolling over for them or he's lying about his motivations,
either way it's not good.

~~~
stale2002
Well, it is not really cancelled. He's moving to China.

~~~
mikeash
He said "The comma one is cancelled." I interpret the followup as being that
they're doing other products _and_ doing those other products in other
markets. Maybe he just meant they'll do it in China instead, but I can only go
off what he says here.

------
dfar1
It's weird that he would give up on his product after one letter, specially
when money is not an issue. Perhaps he already has a buyer for the tech and
just wants to move on to something else.

------
ucaetano
Funny that Tesla doesn't even sell "Autopilot" anymore, as it was an off-the-
shelf 3rd-party solution, but the reference persists. Talk about the power of
marketing and branding.

------
rdl
Was this just a face-saving way to end the project, or did he really shut down
a viable project that he wanted to continue over a simple request for
information by a regulator?

------
smpetrey
Rule number 1. Don't piss off investors. This won't bode well for Comma or the
investors. Really bad PR move.

------
tomjacobs
Best way to get some more press and attention? Hype a project and then claim
to cancel it.

------
asimpletune
May I remind everyone we don't know the full details behind what's going on!

------
flylib
doubt he actually cancels it and changes his mind next week, this was more
spur of the moment and his investors calmed him down?, way too much attention
being brought to it

------
gallerytungsten
It appears Hotz will now deploy his system in China, where the regulations on
such devices are surely more lax. Looks like a good move for extended testing
without pesky government scrutiny.

~~~
jacquesm
If it doesn't work the US might be a better place to mess up than China.

~~~
defen
I was thinking the same thing...sure there are fewer regulations, but "death
penalty" is not outside the realm of possibility for fucking this up in China.

------
yalogin
Must be a great morale boost for the employees.

------
matt_wulfeck
Thank goodness. It sounds like his grand scheme crumbled under a little
scrutiny from a consumer safety organization. We don't need another theranos.

------
sickbeard
Maybe it's a piece of crap and not worth the lawyers

~~~
arcticfox
This is the most likely explanation to me

------
Kenji
That reminds me of my old comment about this

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12492856](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12492856)

I'm really not overly negative about new things but this was predictable.

------
pinaceae
YC should take note, as a bunch of recent investments outside of pure software
will likely end up in the same problem space.

nuclear energy, supersonic planes, etc. - applying the "disruption" and
"agile" method does not work everywhere, to put it mildly.

------
bertiewhykovich
Good. It seems exceedingly unlikely that this is a road-ready technology, and
we don't need yet another software-brained megalomaniac releasing an
insufficiently-developed, unproven product into the physical world, where
"bugs" will actually just straight kill you.

------
cloudjacker
Egohotz is back!

------
nibs
Classic government. Self-driving technology should benchmarked against how
good people are at driving (and how often they kill and injure people), as
opposed to being proven intrinsically safe like a car part.

~~~
mikeash
The letter they received from the NHTSA is available here:

[https://electrek.co/2016/10/28/george-hotz-cancels-his-
tesla...](https://electrek.co/2016/10/28/george-hotz-cancels-his-tesla-
autopilot-like-comma-one-after-request-from-nhtsa/)

It looks to me to be fairly mild and entirely reasonable. To immediately
respond to this letter with "fuck it, we're not going to make this product
anymore" is bizarre, and not the government's fault.

~~~
singularity2001
You call an out of the blue threat of $21,000 per day (!) 'fairly mild'?

~~~
nom
He was probably expecting a letter from the start and knew that time is
limited. geohot may not care about laws and ethics, but there is no way he
doesn't know about all the possible consequences he may face in a project like
comma.ai. He works on something until either the pressure is no longer
justifiable or he succeeds (like unlocking the iPhone). Working in this manner
gives him a great advantage.

I also think it's likely that he never actually intended it to become a real
product and it's all about the journey and experience.

