

Skip college and become a plumber: Mayor Bloomberg - santoshmaharshi
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/skip-college-plumber-mayor-bloomberg-article-1.1347576

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david_shaw
_Disclosure: I dropped out of college just before my senior year in order to
accept a position in my chosen field._

I don't think that college is unnecessary. In fact, I'd say that as more and
more people go to college, it becomes _more_ necessary to hold a degree in
order to compete--even at entry-level positions. I have friends that are
getting beaten out for restaurant work because they don't have a degree
(really).

This, to me, is where the problem lies. We are simultaneously overvaluing (for
basic, entry-level work) and undervaluing (for higher-level jobs) college
degrees.

There is no doubt that to get, say, an entry-level engineering job in today's
market, you need a degree (and from what I've seen, preferably a Master's).
But if you have your bachelors and are still struggling to get work that
traditionally doesn't require one (administrative assistants, call center
employees, service industry staff, etc. come to mind), is it worth spending
$40-$200k on a degree?

Furthermore, skilled trades in the United States are plummeting. Mike Rowe
addressed this very well in his TED talk[1]: electricians, plumbers and
mechanics are getting more and more rare (and are still highly in demand)
because of the stigma of not attending college.

I believe that in the next several years, as unemployment for college
graduates becomes more visible, that skilled trades will once again become
respectable, admired careers. It's crazy to me that people like Master
Electricians ever became stigmatized at all--we are in serious need of their
services, and it requires immense skill and intelligence to perform their
jobs.

1:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...](http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html)

~~~
anxx
The stigma might be associated with jealousy. I know I would be annoyed if the
median income of a HS-degree profession were higher than my college-degree
income. If not watched carefully, that would lead to thinking that while they
are better off financially, they lack in other areas, like small world view,
no critical thinking, etc - in other words, stigma.

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Aqueous
It's kind of unsettling that the idea that a college-level education is for
the elite only is starting to settle in. Rich benefactors like Peter Thiel and
Mayor Bloomberg, both of whom seem to think they got where they are on talent
alone, are broadcasting this idea that college is totally unnecessary.

Rather than telling students to skip college shouldn't we be finding a way to
make a high-quality college education affordable and not confined to the very
rich or exceptionally gifted? I agree with Bloomberg on many things (but
certainly not all) but this is just snobbery and elitism diguised as
"reasonableness."

Bloomberg has been a huge donor to Johns Hopkins. Perhaps he should redirect
more of his contributions from propping up the endowment of an elite
institution like Hopkins (some of which, in fairness, does go to financial
aid) to actually directly paying for underprivileged kids to obtain such an
elite education.

~~~
graeme
Why should we have increased college attendance as a goal? It started as a
finishing school for the elite, and then mid-century briefly became a marker
of a certain level of education.

We give it prestige because of it's history as a marker of success. But wow
that more people have degrees, it has little value as a marker.

In the case of social sciences and humanities, college produces very little
societal value.

So if a kid doesn't like school, and would enjoy being a plumber, why
shouldn't he take a path that leaves him with less debt and more money?

We disparage it now because it's not prestigious, and this has harmful
consequences for those who would enjoy the trades. They face an undeserved
stigma for pursuing a career they would find satisfying.

~~~
Aqueous
I believe plumbers should have a college education. As I said in an above
reply, I don't believe college education is about learning things that are
directly relevant to any profession. It is about learning critical thinking,
how to work with others at a high level, and how to acquire new skills easily.

~~~
saraid216
If you aren't learning critical thinking before you get to college, then we're
doing high school wrong.

~~~
protomyth
...and if you think you are a plumber without learning critical thinking then
you aren't really a plumber.

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obviouslygreen
As a college grad, my opinion might not be considered all that informed (and
maybe that's fair), but honestly, "everybody gets college" seems like a shit
goal to me.

Not only do most professions not need a liberal arts education, many people
just aren't interested in it (very, very few people really _need_ it, though
the people that do, in my opinion, include anyone who intends to get into any
kind of politics or social science).

It's long been my opinion that technical schools are horribly under-utilized,
at least in the US (which is the basis for all my comments, as I'm woefully
unequipped to comment on anything else). I also believe that apprenticeships
are perhaps the best possible method of practical education there has ever
been, and that this is an area presenting a massive business potential that's
being significantly underutilized.

Why not be a plumber? It's a dirty job -- many are -- but not only does
_somebody_ have to do it, a _lot_ of people have to do it, or a lot of people
without dirty jobs are going to get dirty and not know how to deal with it.

This is a vital profession that doesn't require expensive education. There are
many like it. We should encourage consideration of options like this for
_everyone_.

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berkay
\- personal betterment -> college is no longer necessary \- academic career
and scientific research -> applies only to the best of the best. \- as a
professional investment -> the return on investment has to be considered. Is
degree X for University of Y increase individual's earnings potential
sufficiently to justify investing 4 years and $50-200K? For significant chunk
of people, certainly not all, the answer is no. If you're not getting a degree
that is in demand, attending an elite university, chances are investment in
college does not make commercial sense, and as Bloomberg states, may be better
of learning a trade.

Food for thought: If 3 high school graduates pooled their financial resources
they would be investing into private college education, they'd have ~$360K
seed money (from tuition), and 4 years living expenses to come up with a
viable business. I bet they'd learn a ton as well. Better yet, if they had
first learned a trade and worked a couple of years, they may actually build
some useful things instead of yet another social network.

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cimorene12
Laurence Kotlikoff is really famous for his claim that plumbers actually lead
pretty good lives. He says that a general practitioner would on average make
only $423 more per year in discretionary income than a plumber. Here's a piece
from him where he talks about the numbers involved.
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-
find-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-if-
harvard-pays-off-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html)

~~~
spamizbad
I'd take Kotikoff's research with a grain of salt. His analysis was done
during the midst of the housing boom, which latest from the late 90s through
the late 00's, where new homes and new condos, and gut-rehabs demanded A LOT
of plumbing.

Our housing starts are less crazy today. I imagine lower demand goes hand-in-
hand with lower wages.

This is just conjecture on my part though. I'd be happy to be wrong.

~~~
maxerickson
Circa 2011, in a low population area, I had to call 4 or 5 plumbers to find
one that thought dealing with a clogged toilet was worthwhile. One was busy,
another thought it was too far a drive (~30 miles!), another said it didn't
sound like a job he wanted and the fourth didn't get back to me before I had
found someone else. Who knows if I got burned, but it was $350 when I did get
it done, so maybe worth that extra 5 miles of driving.

(roots had (probably) grown into the line to the septic tank)

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weisser
We shouldn't have increased college attendance as the goal.

We should have increased education as the goal.

The more informed and knowledgable we can make the average citizen the more we
can do to improve quality of life.

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null_ptr
The real issue is the "four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without
earning income". Education is essential for the meaningful progress of society
and humanity, we can't let a "tough economy" stand in the way of long-term
thinking. We also can't let greed stand in the way of bright young minds
realizing themselves. Education needs to be free, thorough, and challenging,
that way the minds that crave it will have unrestrained access to it, and
those who don't can go ahead and pick a trade job, but not because of an empty
wallet, but because that's what they genuinely want.

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cheez
My plumber is a salt-of-the-earth type and he is loaded. I told him I
considered telling my daughter to get into the business. He said that she
would make a killing because housewives are generally afraid to let strange
men in.

~~~
protomyth
The second part to that is that a plumber's job cannot be done "over the wire"
in any current sense (or likely for many, many years given some of the
problems being shown in remote medicine).

Tis a shame we threw away apprenticeships in the rush to colleges.

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Spooky23
He's right. People need education, not necessarily the education that you get
for a BA in whatever.

What's wrong with plumbers, anyway. People in the this thread seem to be
implying that it is a lesser profession. You solve problems, have
opportunities for entrepreneurship, and have a progressive path for mastery of
the craft.

I know a few people always whining about Sallie Mae. They are art teachers,
social workers and service sector types. All of these folks borrowed 6 figures
to get degrees from private schools in fields that require a lot of expensive
education and little compensation.

Making $60k to watch 6th graders draw sounds like a sweet gig... But paying
$650/mo in loans makes it a subsistence job.

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willbill
Remember that a good portion of college debt is held by people who thought
they wanted to go to college, went in, accrued debt and then decided to do
something different. Its good to have people in power say, 'do what is right
for you.'

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generalcalm
I live in Western Australia. We have a massive skills shortage in trades such
as electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc. The stigma attached to non-
university careers scared parents into encouraging offspring into degrees
instead. (Combined with a mining boom soaking up tradesman job hunters)

Today, I do not know any good 'tradies' that are not making at least 100k per
year, and far, far more if heading to the mining industry.

Suffice to say, I do more youtube searching on how to 'fix a leaking tap' than
ever before.

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ImprovedSilence
>> The only schools that cost $40,000 or $50,000 like the mayor said are elite
schools,” Kantrowitz said.

uh... I hope they are talking per year here. The article doesn't make that
clear, but 40k in debt after 4 years at a public/state college is very very
possible... Bloomberg might be out of touch with how tuition has skyrocketed.
Heck, I graduated in 07, and in-state tuition at my alma mater has DOUBLED
since then...

~~~
SatvikBeri
That quote is referencing Bloomberg's earlier quote “You don’t spend ... four
years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income.” So it's
pretty clear here's talking about per-year tuition.

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protomyth
I wonder how many of our current social problems in high school are caused by
our dropping apprenticeships and vocational education and going "college is
the only acceptable result" route? We treat high school age students like
children but expect them to think in terms of their adult future. At a time
when some maturity and critical thinking needs to be developed, we keep the
same factory system from elementary school.

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babesh
We should really be asking WHAT we want out of college then look at the best
way to provide that whether it is college or not.

Also, this question is somewhat US centric since in Europe (correct me if I am
wrong), if you want to become a lawyer, you can just go straight to law school
(instead of doing 4 years and then going to law school).

I personally think that these are the most important goals: 1) time and space
for young adults to ask basic questions of themselves and the society they
live in, to try and fail, pick yourself up again 2) exposure to some of the
best the society has to offer: art, science, literature, etc... 3) training
ground for specializing in a field

So going into a trade will give you 3), but should there be more societal
support for 1) and 2)? IMHO, coursera and the like theoretically spread
limited availability of 3) but because of their virtual nature do a worse job
of 1) and 2).

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teeja
In the US it -used- to be that kids who didn't have all the money they needed
for school could -fairly easily- find a job or two to help themselves get
through.

That was helped by the fact that public-school tuition was CHEAP. In the 60s
at a major university you might pay $150 tuition PER QUARTER ($225/semester).
Room and board at a university dormitory? $120/month. With maid service.

Compare $500/year to $15,000 -- 33 times more costly -- and ask yourself what
happened in the US to make education SO much more expensive (rent in that
period has increased by a factor of 10 to 15) and why part-time jobs are
either looked down on or so much harder to find.

Add to that a willingness to go deeply into debt (without, it seems, much
understanding of how dangerous that is) that would have been -unthinkable- at
that time.

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D9u
I wonder what kind of grades the mayor got in college?

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fakeer
Education is costly, so much that in sometime it's going to be elite only.
Hell, it's elite only right now, minus the huge loans.

So, instead of making it affordable, elites(whether they reached their elite
spot on talent alone or they were born with silver spoons) they are suggesting
to skip it altogether(if one can't afford it).

It's a lot better in _those_ countries where Govt. provides quality education
to greater extent and even private fees are regulated. Or maybe it's demand
and supply mechanism. For people from other countries it's just the best short
cut for a green card, especially the Asians.

~~~
camus
no it's not ,USA makes it expensive ,it doesnt have to be that expensive. In
USA , education is FOR-PROFIT . It's not in most part or EUROPE for instance.

~~~
fakeer
>> _It's not in most part or EUROPE for instance._

I think this was true earlier but not anymore, IMHO.

Take the example of Swedish higher education and other countries. They are as
costly, especially for people coming from outside - from Non-EU/US and third
world countries and low prospective of jobs after finishing the course makes
practically these universities more expansive.

Now take an example of UK. Jobs are scarce there and once you finish the
degree, you don't have a job offer, you leave the country that very day. Cost
of education there? Don't even ask it!

