
French court rules Steam’s ban on reselling used games breaks European law - adrian_mrd
https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-steam-valve-used-games-eu-law
======
goldcd
Strangely I find myself not-liking this ruling. I mean I can absolutely see
from an intellectual level, why it's happened - but there will be
repercussions.

Firstly the minor one. Restrictions on transfer is what allows us to pick up
ridiculously cheap old/good games. Cheap (humble bundle or a steam sale) or
even free (you happened to be on epic and pressed a button this month). There
are already 'some problems' \- but these services will be killed off.

Major concern I have is that every game will "become a subscription service".
I love my stack of steam games sat there to be played whenever I want. This is
available as I currently have a perpetual license for them, and this is
possible as the current market sells many many many more of these licenses
than there are people concurrently playing these games.

i.e. If licenses were made completely transferable, then gaming would become a
'market' like some weird global Uber.

EA creates 100k licenses for a game (and the back-end support for it), if >
100k people want to play it the price to play per hour goes up (or they
release more licenses), and if less it goes down they cut the price...
...again I'm OK with the model.. but not how it impacts how I see 'my games'

My real objection being that this won't magically become an open market, it'll
become subscription hell. EU can say something has to be resellable on Steam,
but the industry response will be to "not sell on Steam" \- and create endless
separate markets.

~~~
shakna
> Major concern I have is that every game will "become a subscription
> service". I love my stack of steam games sat there to be played whenever I
> want. This is available as I currently have a perpetual license for them,
> and this is possible as the current market sells many many many more of
> these licenses than there are people concurrently playing these games.

Valve tried to argue that Steam is already a subscription service, and failed.
I don't see how this ruling will cause any change here other than allow
transfer of ownership.

~~~
OJFord
I believe GP means because if transfer is allowed, it'll happen at the expense
of 'new' sales, which hurts developers/studios/publishers as much as it hurts
Valve, so they adapt model to mitigate and sell subscriptions instead of
perpetual licences.

~~~
shakna
Which doesn't make economic sense for Valve.

They have two clear options:

a) Switch to a true subscription model, but have to build a way to transfer
items sold before the switch in payment model, as those have been ruled to be
purchases. The gaming community would likely get annoyed with them.

b) Build a way to transfer items. They get to take a cut of this, and can also
pass a cut on to the studios, whilst pointing to this ruling as a reason why
it has to happen. The gaming community would celebrate it, even if the
transfer is ridiculously complex or difficult.

The second option is the cheapest, and can only increase Valve's revenue,
whilst they can also placate their partners.

~~~
SyneRyder
Can Valve take a cut of the transfer? It sounds like the point is
French/European citizens must be allowed to resell the game any way they like
without any involvement with Valve at all. If the sales/transfers have to go
through Valve, it seems that still infringes on "the free movement of goods
within the Union."

~~~
AlunAlun
Of course they can take a cut, just like any physical copy second hand
reseller takes a cut. The trick will be demonstrating ownership of digital
goods, which is the industry is beginning to invest in things like blockchain
tech.

~~~
SyneRyder
I think I worded my question badly (or I misunderstood the person I was
replying to). I thought they were suggesting Valve / Steam would be the _only_
place the sale / transfer could happen.

------
falcolas
There's a ton of FUD going around about this in games journalism - claiming
that this could be the end of the game industry as we know it.

Problem with this reporting is - console games have been re-sellable since the
beginning, and console gaming (from a fiscal and number perspective) vastly
outpaces PC gaming. That doesn't even include how much more prevalent pirating
is with the PC gaming market.

If the console market can survive this, so can the PC market. Yes, even
indies.

~~~
d1zzy
Yes, but console games never get anywhere near the steep discounts or the
sheer number of them that PC digital games get.

I'm sure PC gaming can _survive_ this but surviving is not the same as
"nothing will change" nor is it "it's going to be better overall". That
remains to be seen.

~~~
falcolas
Remember - when you can re-sell the game, you don't need the same deep
discounts, when you can sell the game to someone else for 80+% of the original
sale price.

Even with that in mind, console games (specifically the ones that can be
resold) frequently go on sale for half their retail price, and after a year or
two can get down to a third. Just like their digital counterparts.

------
hekdev
A major issue with this is that digital goods do not degrade or deteriorate,
unless built-in.

For indie games, a free "used" digital goods market would mean the end of
sales for that indie game. How many gamers would not sell off their Subnautica
or Super Meat Boy in a heartbeat just to spend that money on Cyberpunk 2077?
Many I guess, in the thousands even.

So very shortly the supply of "used" copies of a game would VASTLY outnumber
the demand for that game. Thus effectively ending the sales period for that
game, probably forever. No reason whatsoever to buy a "new" copy of a digital
good unless it uses some additional DRM locks and microtransactions.

Now why this problem isn't as prevalent with physical copies is that:

A) It's actually not legal (in many jurisdictions, at least the ones with
copyright lobbies, of which there is no shortage of in the EU) to make copies
of the discs for any other purpose but personal backups. B) All discs
deteriorate and degrade with time and they can't be circulated forever due to
point A.

If an open market of "used" digital goods becomes the norm then that could
spell the end for many smaller studios as we know it. Or it just makes a
Streaming future even more inevitable, or Steam will invent some clever thing
to circumvent this whole thing. Maybe instead of buying games you simply buy
"tickets", I leave this up to the lawyers to figure out.

------
knightofmars
"The court rejected Valve’s defense that argued Steam is a subscription
service."

Good! A subscription service infers new content without having to pay a
repeated entry cost for said content.

~~~
nonconvergent
What is a subscription if not a repeated entry cost for new content?

~~~
beatgammit
And often repeated entry cost without new content. With a subscription
service, you never own the content in any meaningful way, you just get
temporary access, and if you stop paying, you typically lose access to the
content.

Steam isn't a subscription service because you purchase a la carte and only
get access to the specific content you choose. I would love a subscription
service where I could play other games with a flat monthly cost, but that's
not how Steam operates.

------
Lutzb
Given this ruling won't be overturned, I find this a very positive outcome for
consumers and the market. Also, I hope that there will be an investigation on
the tiered pricing model for steam games, i.e. the same game can almost be
twice as expensive in different countries in the EU. This coupled without the
possibility of the consumer to buy the product in an EU country outside
his/her own country goes clearly against the idea/rules of common market. As a
European I should be free to order my product from any EU country of my
choosing.

~~~
briandear
> As a European I should be free to order my product from any EU country of my
> choosing

As a person, we should be able to order anything we want from any country we
want, free of protectionist plots to artificially distort markets to favor
politically connected groups such as farmers or auto makers or textile
producers.

~~~
paublyrne
Perhaps, but the parent is referring to existing European law, not just
espousing an opinion.

[https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-
eu/selling-...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-
goods-services/selling-products-eu/index_en.htm)

~~~
Lutzb
Yes, thank you for the link.

Relevant quote:

If you offer a special price, promotion or sales conditions, these should be
accessible to all your customers irrespective of which EU country they are
located in, their nationality, place of residence or business location.

The rules apply to online and offline transactions as long as the sales are to
the end user (an individual or business that doesn't have the intention to re-
sell, transform, process, rent or subcontract their purchases).

------
KingMachiavelli
Valve in general has had an interesting, "hands off" approach that has gotten
them in legal trouble in the past; they sold software/games in Australia and
for some strange reason didn't think to ensure they were in complience with
local Consumer laws [1].

[1] [https://www.pcgamesn.com/valve-accc-
lawsuit](https://www.pcgamesn.com/valve-accc-lawsuit)

~~~
jbarberu
"Move fast and break laws..."

------
fyfy18
This ruling sounds like it should apply to mobile apps too. I wonder what
Apple and Google think about that.

~~~
briandear
Perhaps this ruling should apply to airplane tickets as well? I wonder what
Air France thinks about that?

And Eurail passes -- those are issued to a specific traveler, it seems like
the inability to sell your Eurail pass is violating this decision as well. I
wonder what the French railroads think about that?

Under the logic of this court decision, I should be able to buy a Eurail pass,
ride on a train, mail it to a friend, the friend pays me for the pass, then
that friend can take the train, then re-sells it to me, then I can use it, and
so on. Right? Isn't that what this decision is saying?

> According to EU law, all goods, including software, can be sold used without
> the permission of the maker or the original seller

If we want to argue that a train ride is a service and not a "good," that
logic would apply to software as well -- software isn't a physical "thing" but
a collection of information that permits some action (i.e. playing a game.)
Just like a Eurail pass is a collection of information that permits some
action (i.e. riding a train.)

I think the courts in Europe, especially in old-economy countries that have a
strong-anti-tech sentiment might ought to be a bit mindful of the unintended
consequences of their decisions.

~~~
joemi
> Under the logic of this court decision, I should be able to buy a Eurail
> pass, ride on a train, mail it to a friend, the friend pays me for the pass,
> then that friend can take the train, then re-sells it to me, then I can use
> it, and so on. Right? Isn't that what this decision is saying?

Since when was a train ride considered "goods"? Pretty sure a train ride is a
"service" and not "goods".

~~~
henryfjordan
Maybe a single ticket is a service, but what about a "season pass" type
ticket? That's the right to ride as many trains as you want. A right to a
service isn't a service.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
My season pass for the commuter train can be used by anyone I give it to.

------
shmerl
In theory it sounds right, but the downside could be developers getting less
sales, and in the already crowded market it could sink a number of them. Or
may be it won't. Hard to say.

However, there will be probably a reaction from some publishers to push more
DRM and to run to use something like Stadia exclusively. That's not a good
thing at all. And if this will undermine DRM-free gaming, I'd say it's not
worth it.

~~~
betterbeehome
Stadia is no different than a PS4 or an Xbox. It's just that you're renting a
Stadia, but still buying game licenses (just like Steam). Stadia isn't Netflix
for games, it's streaming console for hire.

~~~
shmerl
Neither PS nor Xbox are good examples to begin with. They are already DRMed to
the brink.

Stadia however is DRM on steroids. So even worse in this sense than other
options, especially when you compare it with proper DRM-free stores. I.e. if
it comes as a convenience and you can still download the game - then it's
fine. But if it comes as "streaming only" option, it's not.

------
deadmetheny
I'm curious as to how this gets handled in practice - does Valve get forced
into adding a feature to transfer game rights from one account to another?
Does it merely make selling your account legal? At the extreme, does this
cause Valve to just pull out of the EU market entirely - this is doubtful, but
stranger things have happened!

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
It’s annoying that Steam doesn’t have transferable licenses. All of my games
are spread-out over 3 different Steam accounts and I can’t consolidate them.

(I made my first account when Steam launched and added all my physical Valve
games by CD-key - then years later I forgot the password (And a dead Hotmail
address) and also bought the Orange Box and put it on a new account. I created
a new third account for myself years ago to make a clean-break with all the
dumb Steam friends I collected in high-school.)

~~~
d1zzy
Out of DRM paranoia (before I discovered GOG) I used to have a separate Steam
account for each game franchise and a Google Spreadsheet to keep track of
them. About 15 accounts (yes yes, I don't own that many Steam games, luckily I
discovered GOG before I ended up buying too many Steam games). Would be neat
if I could finally collapse them now that most of my games are on GOG
(including having rebought games I had on Steam that I actually care to really
own).

~~~
Fnoord
I suppose you don't maintain a friends list on those 15 accounts.

------
wpdev_63
If this ruling is upheld and people are able to sell their digital games to
other people - there won't be any more steam sales. Let's pray this doesn't
happen.

------
manfredo
> The court rejected Valve’s defense that argued Steam is a subscription
> service. According to Numerama, the court found that Steam sells games in
> perpetuity, and not as part of a subscription package.

So Steam is in the clear as long as they stop selling perpetual licenses and
start selling 99-year long subscriptions for their games?

------
christkv
I suspect that if this ruling stands valve will probably pull out of the
French market unless it can take this to the European Union court and win
there.

~~~
betterbeehome
They cannot "pull" out of the French market. The lawsuit from doing that would
be insane. What are they gonna do? Take everyone's Steam games away from them?
Refund them hundreds of millions of dollars? Billions?

If they lose the appeal, I doubt they'll win at the EU court. They have to
either fight and win the appeal or change.

