

In Changing Face of Beijing, a Look at the New China - echair
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/arts/design/13build.html?em&ex=1216180800&en=a68db2bdfd853acd&ei=5070

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cglee
I feel obligated to comment just because I pass by that monstrosity every day.
It's not obvious from the title, but this is primarily a piece on several of
Beijing's new architectural showpieces, while trying to interleave China's
"growth" and "changing landscape" into the commentary. Since I don't know too
much about architecture, I can't say whether it's a good article or not, but I
really didn't learn much from this.

~~~
curiousgeorge
I think the new CCTV building is great. That being said, I'm reminded of a
comment I read ages ago. "Spend a day in China and you can write a book. Spend
a few years and you can't think of a single thing to say."

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cglee
I don't see how that statement relates to China specifically.

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curiousgeorge
Quote was more intended at the article than your comment. :)

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biohacker42
_The sensation is comparable to the epiphany that Adolf Loos, the Viennese
architect, experienced when he stepped off a steamship in New York Harbor more
than a century ago. He had crossed a threshold into the future; Europe, he
realized, was now culturally obsolete._

Man I hope China turns out a nice super power. Like a more populous Canada or
something.

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falsestprophet
In today's China when the government wants to make a statement, authorities
round up a bunch of suspected criminals, put them on trial, and execute them.
There is an appeal process. Later that day their appeals are rejected, they
are taken to a trailer out back immediately, put on their knees and shot in
the back of the head.

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ajkirwin
China's wonderful architecture and fast-growing cities still doesn't, for me,
offset its government and its treatment of people.

~~~
cglee
I'm not sure anything can "offset" those things, but you should consider a
long duration stay as a first step towards understanding some of the issues
around China.

China faces distinctly different problems than the US on so many fronts, that
it's very difficult for Americans and Westerners to appreciate even the
problems, let alone propose solutions.

That's not to say you can't say what's right or wrong, but wholesale
condemnation doesn't even allow one to take the first step.

Update: let me be more specific, since I know the hacker in all of us wants to
say "give me all the variables, and I can give the optimal solution". A lot of
China's issues stem from thousands of years of culture. Thousands. You can't
really get a feel of the core issues without living and breathing China for a
few years. And living as an exchange student for a semester in WuDaoKuo while
partying in Sanlitun really doesn't count. There are libraries of books on
this subject, so I can't hope to do it justice here. In summary: it's much
more complicated than just "the government" or "human rights" - it's not ever
just one variable in isolation being considered.

ps: think of it this way: what would you say to someone who says "I dislike
the US government for its treatment of Native Americans/Alaskans/Hawaiians".
I'd think you'd agree, but that's not really an issue that exists in a vacuum.
There's historical, cultural, temporal, etc context...and in China (just by
being around for thousands of years), all of those contexts are far more
complex.

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ajkirwin
I'd say, "At least those problems are mostly in the past now", whereas you
cannot say the same thing about China.

Infact, I must admit, China isn't a country I would even feel comfortable
about visiting. I am a very vocal proponent of democracies and a critic of how
China treats not only its citizens, but journalists both native and foreign
and how it uses its economic might to get away with things that other country
get sanctioned for.

Tiananmen Square was less than 20 years ago and not that much has changed, I
feel.

~~~
cglee
For your first sentence, look up Hawaiian Sovereignty or slavery retribution
or head out to any Native American reservation. Or ask yourself why it is that
there are more black youths in jail than in college (hint: slavery &
discrimination). But I took the bait, these things aren't what I want to
discuss because however you define "righteous" (I guess in your world, it's
got something to do with x amount of elapsed time), we can banter back and
forth with stats and be here all night.

Middle paragraph - I agree with your criticisms. But if you're interested in
more than just criticizing from the sidelines, you need to go to China and try
to get a feel for the place. At some point, you need to try to fully
understand what it is that you're criticizing.

Tiananmen Square - lots has changed since that time. Again, you need to go see
to believe.

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wtrk
Ask the Tiananmen Mothers how much China has changed. Ask the Uighurs or
Tibetans. Ask some of the current crop of Chinese dissidents - the ones
currently being harrassed, kept under house arrest, or those who've been
secretly arrested, beaten, and tortured. Ask factory workers who are finding
that the new labor law gives them little/no real protection from their
employers. Ask nail house residents who are being forced out of their homes
with little or no compensation to make way for developers with close ties to
local officials. You won't read about any of these people much in the local
press - either the government mouthpieces or the censored commercial media -
and any significant interaction with them will end up with you being branded
an "enemy of China" and hounded out of the country.

I have been living and running a business here, in China, for the past several
years and I see plenty.

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cglee
You're right, if I ask the most oppressed people in a society, they will tell
me everything wrong with the government. I'm sure that's no different anywhere
else.

My question is: what do you do about these problems? How do you curb local
political corruption? How do you maintain governance of a mostly uneducated
mass, while transitioning to capitalism? How do you keep the country
developing while minimizing pollution? etc etc etc...throwing stones is the
easy part. Building is the hard part.

My entire point is: you won't be able to come up with good, sound solutions to
any of these problems without a deep understanding of China, and even then, I
doubt there are any really great solutions without side effects.

Edit: but to reply, a lot has changed since Tiananmen. I don't have to ask the
Mothers of those killed, I can see it myself. Maybe it hasn't changed as much
as you like, but it has changed a lot.

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wtrk
Yeah - find some Australians, British citizens, Canadians, etc. who are
serving lengthy jail terms or are currently under house arrest for speaking
out about environmental disasters, labor disputes, and the like. Especially
reach out to the ones who've been beaten and tortured for voicing their views
and attempting to organize.

The problem of course is that none of that stuff happens to peaceful
protesters and activists. It does happen in China.

Any effort to cast the Chinese government and its policies as somehow morally
equivalent to the governments of liberal Western democracies is going to fall
flat.

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cglee
I made no such argument.

