
India is rolling out trains with solar-powered coaches - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1030696/india-is-rolling-out-trains-with-solar-powered-coaches-thatll-save-thousands-of-litres-of-diesel/
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pilom
Best case, that much solar generates about 38 horsepower for about 5 hours per
day. The engine generates about 4000 horsepower. I would be astounded if this
lowered fuel usage by 1% after you count the added weight of the batteries and
electronics or if it lowered costs by anywhere near 1% due to the added
maintenance issues.

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abc_lisper
I think they seem to say that each compartment has it's own diesel generator.
They don't seem to use the train engine for that.

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volkl48
That's not how modern trains generally work although it's possible that's how
India's trains still work.

Usually there's a HEP (head-end power) generator on the locomotive and the
rest of the coaches are just plugged into that/each other to distribute the
power down the train. Most regions have standard connectors/voltages and such
to make this pretty seamless.

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pvsukale1
I just wish those solar panels don't get stolen. That's a major problem with
major valuable government installations here. People have stolen coal, road
construction material etc. Although this seems impossible with the solar
panels as they have been attached tightly. But with internal help from
government employees, it is not.

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kumarvvr
Coal, Road construction materials, switches, panels, lights,etc have immediate
economic value, even in small quantities.

Solar Panels are a whole different game altogether. IMO theft is not such a
big issue.

The bigger issue is power loss due to lack of cleaning, battery life reduction
due to lack of maintenance, etc.

It's not just the panels, you have batteries, converters, etc that need good
maintenance to get a consistent ROI. However, the unit cost of power from
diesel is definitely much higher than that from the grid and solar panels have
a pretty good ROI when compared to power from the grid.

~~~
pvsukale1
I personally think this transition would have been more efficient if all
engines are switched to the electric ones and electricity is provided from
stationary solar power plants in the higher radiation regions. It will be more
efficient and easy to maintain.

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pm90
What so you mean by electric engines? Electrification of rail lines is a
pretty expensive undertaking, although I will admit I'm not certain of the
specifics. I'm guessing that it makes sense only for shorter distances, which
is why local trains/metros do use electrified tracks.

This seems like a good step in reducing costs of long distance train travel.
Not to mention: a lot of experience would be gained in installing and
operating solar panels, which could then be used elsewhere.

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kumarvvr
Thinking in terms of long-term ROI is a better way to evaluate electrification
of Rail lines, rather than the upfront cost. Govt's can bear such a cost and
ROI on electrified rail lines should be pretty damn good.

It's not impossible. Also, there is a scope of making the whole system carbon
neutral.

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Shivetya
I always wondered why electrification of major rail lines is not accompanied
by updating and implementation of a more modern and efficient power grip. The
two can parallel each other due to right of ways and while you cannot directly
power your train from those high voltage lines the substations along the way
make for good connection points

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kumarvvr
I don't know about other countries, but in India, the Rail power grid is
completely isolated from the consumer grid.

Also, from a technical standpoint, especially for renewable energy systems,
it's best to have isolated pockets of energy generation and consumption rather
than a country wide grid.

Due to the intermittent nature of power available from renewable energy
sources, it's best to have micro grids and micro storage systems.

In case of railway lines, the load on the network can be calculated to a very
good accuracy, unlike the consumer grid. Hypothetically, this can mean that
the rail grid can be isolated and be managed at a very high efficiency level.

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adrianN
It's a nice idea, but I wonder whether they should maybe spend their money on
electrifying their network, at least in the cities. The fuel used to power
lights, screens, etc in the coaches must be a small fraction of the energy
required to move the train.

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ed_blackburn
I should have thought the disparity in cost between solar panels on roofs of
trains vs electrifying millions of miles of track is gigantic?

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lallysingh
Solar panels are also a lot cheaper than they used to be.

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0xFFFE
The way I see it is, they are trying to save expenses wherever they can so
they have budget for other major projects. India imports pretty much all of
its oil spending precious foreign currency reserves. So if they can save few
thousand litres of fuel every year that's a good saving.

Secondly, IR has ambitious project to electrify all major routes, please see
section 5 of the link for ongoing projects (a total of 20k RKM)

[http://www.core.indianrailways.gov.in/view_section.jsp?lang=...](http://www.core.indianrailways.gov.in/view_section.jsp?lang=0&id=0,294,302,532)

Thirdly, there is huge ongoing project to set up dedicated freight corridor
across the country. To separate freight and passenger traffic.

[http://dfccil.gov.in/dfccil_app/Home](http://dfccil.gov.in/dfccil_app/Home)

Here is one of the drone videos.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aHSVVR7Z0A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aHSVVR7Z0A)

Lastly, they are spending huge money on modernizing the train stations.

[https://www.irsdc.com/](https://www.irsdc.com/)

All these have to come from the same annual budget (except dedicated freight
corridor project)

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anotherbrownguy
The only good thing about this is that it will be an example for what to not
waste money on.

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pm90
This could end up being a huge deal. The one thing I do worry about is thieves
making off with the expensive solar panels. The article doesn't mention how
the trains would be protected in those cases.

It also doesn't mention if the passenger cars would draw electricity from the
locomotive during nighttime/ monsoon etc. but I'm guessing that is the case.

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sudhirj
They're likely welded on - if there's a risk of theft there's already a lot on
the coaches - lights, fans, tanks etc that need to be protected. Don't think
the panels add to risk in any significant way.

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pm90
Aren't solar panels more expensive than tube lights or fans though?

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swapsmagic
One more thing to consider is: Stones or other obstacles thrown on the train
(which happens sometime due to protest and theft attempt) and can damage those
panels. I don't see that being handles in any way.

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fareesh
This comes off largely as a PR exercise given the fact that the train is most
likely going to be using solar a fraction of the time and when it does, it
won't contribute much.

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rukittenme
Electricity is weightless... Leave the power plant at home. Just transmit the
electricity by wire (if an electric train) or don't at all if its a coal train
because I GUARANTEE the weight of the solar panels alone will make the train
less efficient. And if it doesn't, the inefficiency of them being placed in a
STATIC (i.e. not sun tracking) position on a MOVING object will certainly
destroy whatever "efficiency gains" you had in the first place.

What's next? A nuclear power plant in the trunk of my car to power my radio??

Also, why use solar panels to power interior lights? You only need lights when
the sun isn't out. And when do solar panels work? So now we're hauling
batteries around the city too.

WHAT. A. WASTE. And what's frustrating is I see bullshit like this everyday!

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tmbsundar
I didn't down vote you. But, I wanted to put some views here:

> if its a coal train

No coal trains in India except Heritage pieces.[1]

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Railways#Locomotives](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Railways#Locomotives)

You have a point. But, consider this:

\- Currently 47% kms length of the running track is electrified. They are not
doing away with electrification and completely going solar. \- Currently they
have 5869 Diesel and 5214 electric locomotives in total. (almost 47% again.)
[2]

[2] -
[http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwayboard/uploads/direct...](http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwayboard/uploads/directorate/stat_econ/IRSP_2015-16/Summary%20Sheet_Eng_pdf_pdf.pdf)

The Diesel ones have an Auxiliary power units to save Diesel which they are
hauling around anyway now. Your point of hauling around batteries and
equipment even now happens in all Diesel locos with multiple compressors and
stuff. [3].

[3] - [https://medhaindia.com/index.php/products/fuel-saving-
soluti...](https://medhaindia.com/index.php/products/fuel-saving-
solutions/auxiliary-power-unit)

The Solar changes will mostly augment the Diesel units progressively thus
strategically reducing dependence on Diesel, which India is a huge importer
every year.

The Strategy is twofold as they are speeding up electrification plus thus
reducing the share of Diesel locos and also experimenting with Solar stuff.

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rukittenme
> No coal trains in India except Heritage pieces.[1]

Sorry, I meant diesel.

> The Diesel ones have an Auxiliary power units to save Diesel which they are
> hauling around anyway now. Your point of hauling around batteries and
> equipment even now happens in all Diesel locos with multiple compressors and
> stuff.

Consider the energy density of diesel versus a lithium ion battery. Now
consider the weight of an array of solar panels versus a small diesel
generator. It's a great deal of weight gain. The compressors you carry are a
sunk cost and are irrelevant.

The weight gains just put more work on the locomotives diesel engine. You will
use more diesel in one location.

> The Solar changes will mostly augment the Diesel units progressively thus
> strategically reducing dependence on Diesel, which India is a huge importer
> every year.

You're not reducing diesel consumption. You're just moving it from an array of
generators to the engine.

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kennydude
It's nice to see innovation in the railways. Kinda sad in the UK we don't seem
to do much, if any, innovation these days :(

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brianbreslin
What about the people who ride on top of the trains? Is that practice no
longer going on?

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harigov
The only time I ever witnessed that was when a public transportation company
employees went on strike for a month and the only transport available were
trains. Otherwise I have never heard or seen anyone sitting on top of a train.

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brianbreslin
Maybe its something from western movies then?

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7260838...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7260838/India-
moves-to-ban-passengers-travelling-on-top-of-trains.html)

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harigov
Actually, that picture makes you believe that so many people sit on top of
trains. There are crazy people all over the place. The ones in India do crazy
stuff like sitting on top of a train. I have never seen that but there is a
possibility that it may happen occasionally but not at the scale shown in that
picture. I think India didn't even have a law that restricts people from
sitting on top of trains and now they introduced one.

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imgabe
But won't they get blocked when everyone starts dancing on top of the train?

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Markoff
do they have them behind bars same as priso...ehm passengers? very safe in
case of accident...

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lordofuniverse
Instead of wasting money on this stuff they would focus on feeding those poor
people.

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calvinbhai
yeah. that'll ensure there are more poor people. investing in infrastucture
means reducing costs for moving from point A to point B, which means more
opportunities for people to move up the wealth chain.

Any infra investment should be seen with the POV of reducing poverty in the
future, instead of being short sighted and asking "why not feed the poor?".

If you are so concerned about the poor, what are you doing here ? Go feed the
poor and then preach!

