
Reddit now tracks all outbound link clicks by default, existing users opted in - fooey
https://np.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4rl5to/outbound_clicks_rollout_complete/
======
soared
I'm stunned they weren't already doing this. It takes all of 30 seconds [1] to
track this and is /incredibly/ useful, especially on a site that's used
largely for outbound links. I have outbound link tracking set up for every
client and personal website. Same with email address clicks, button clicks,
file downloads, etc.

Did anyone really think websites weren't doing this? This is incredibly
innocuous compared to other things.

[1] [http://www.amazeemetrics.com/en/blog/google-tag-manager-
tuto...](http://www.amazeemetrics.com/en/blog/google-tag-manager-tutorial-
part-1-tracking-outbound-links-gtm-version-2)

~~~
Noseshine
Given that they always had the occasional, well, quite frequent actually, "all
our servers are busy" problem, while having a monetization problem (meaning
investing in infrastructure isn't something decided lightly), I find it
perfectly reasonable. Or do _you_ have a concrete - and I mean _concrete_
monetization plan for that data? Not just an "idea", it should be as real as
the cost of creating and maintaining the additional server(s) for tracking
(even more) stuff, and also why it's more important than finally solving their
"busy servers" problem. _Everything_ sounds easy from a high-level management
perspective. Until you actually have to _do it_ and can't just wave hundreds
of "details" aside.

~~~
ben_jones
I'm fairly certain most of Reddit's server problems came from database R/W
operations. If you look at some of the metrics they've put out recently you'll
see things like "queued upvotes/comments/messages" suggesting that they now
heavily queue them. They also cache SUPER aggressively, very noticeable on
large threads like those for sporting events where you can refresh a page and
not see any updates for several minutes.

I think this is a talent problem and not a "throw servers at it" problem.

EDIT:

As much as I like bashing Reddit I feel like I need to mention something.
Reddit is the UNDISPUTED best news source for large, breaking, news stories.
Reddit's live threads are curated and crowd sourced feeds containing
information from police scanners, News outlets, twitter feeds, and a variety
of other sources. It's value is in its ability to display conflicting
information instantly such that the viewer can get the clearest picture
possible. This thread of today's Dallas shooting is a prime example [1].

[1]:
[https://www.reddit.com/live/x7xfgo3k9jp7](https://www.reddit.com/live/x7xfgo3k9jp7)

~~~
rangibaby
Reddit also gets it wrong. They blamed a completely unrelated person (who had
killed himself) for the Boston bombing, which is now a meme ("We did it
Reddit!"), and even today a photo of a black man in army camo and holding an
M16 was falsely claimed to be a shooter.

~~~
eterm
That photo today was published by the Dallas PD, it wasn't a reddit thing.

[https://twitter.com/DallasPD/status/751262719584575488/photo...](https://twitter.com/DallasPD/status/751262719584575488/photo/1)

Besides, you're mixing up reddit the platform/company and reddit the
commentariat.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> mixing up reddit the platform/company and reddit the commentariat

The sane way to use Reddit is to log in, unsubscribe from everything that's by
default, and add only things you are very interested in. Also go into your
Settings and turn off all the suggested subreddits (and the outbound click
tracking, surely).

Do that, and you can browse your niche technology news and computer game and
magical-girl-anime subreddits in peace -- otherwise it's just a losing fight
against clickbait popularity contests and flash mobs for justice.

~~~
Noseshine
And _do_ subscribe to /r/cats to get your daily dose of cat.

[http://i.imgur.com/f1yeHVO.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/f1yeHVO.jpg)

------
r3bl
So, by the current state of things, I'll have to visit the privacy settings in
every single social network I'm using on a monthly basis just to make sure
that they haven't pushed something I didn't agree on by subscribing to their
service? Great!

~~~
econner
It's probably in the privacy policy / terms of service that you don't read
when signing up (no one does...). It's actually nice of Reddit to announce
these sorts of changes and not just say "we updated our privacy policy"

~~~
noir_lord
Smart not nice.

Reddit has a large community of technology savvy users what looks better "We
started doing X that some of you may not like" vs "We updated our privacy
policy"..few days later "They started doing X, burn them!".

I wish more companies would be smart.

------
moultano
Hopefully they can use this to substantially improve their algorithm. (Voting
without clicking, click to vote interval, click duration) Lots of reddit's
problems are due to algorithmic flaws that they just didn't have the data to
correct.

~~~
Someone1234
Most of Reddit's problems are due to "double-dipping" what upvotes/downvotes
mean. It is both used for like/dislike AND for marking things as
spam/troll/off-topic/unconstructive.

So you get these incredibly articulate replies which move the conversation
forward but people "dislike" so wind up hidden with -5. Which is treated no
differently to pure trolling and nonsense.

I can name another website with that same issue...

A like/dislike system is fine. But you need three buttons, like/dislike, and
"bad." No amount of dislikes should ever make a comment hidden or punish the
account, that's what "bad" or "flag" should be for.

Heck even the karma total on Reddit encourages an echo chamber, effectively
reinforcing the idea that downvotes are "bad" and you have less "worth" with
less of them.

~~~
ECrownofFire
The problem with any negative feedback system is that people will always use
it for stuff they personally don't like. It doesn't matter what you call it,
people will abuse it.

~~~
Someone1234
You could easily design around that.

With like/dislike and flag, you could restrict them from replying or voting on
replies which they flagged. Meaning they cannot argue with someone they just
flagged, if they want to argue all they can do is "dislike" (which is how
dislike SHOULD be used).

~~~
nucleardog
This is towards what Slashdot does (did? haven't been there in a while). When
you're given moderation points, you can only use them in a discussion you
don't take part in. If you reply in a discussion that you'd moderated, your
moderation is undone.

~~~
IanCal
Yeah, I've always quite liked that idea. Combined with marking things in
different ways (funny vs informative, for example) I thought it worked pretty
well.

There will always be issues with anything like voting, but it's an interesting
approach.

HN also stops you from downvoting someone who replies to you, I think, which
is another good idea.

------
djsumdog
Their warrant canary is gone, they've banned tons of subs that were barely
controversial, and they added a way to block people you don't like making it
an echo chamber.

I'd say I want to hack on a federated Reddit clone, but looking at the state
of federated social networking, I already feel it'd be dead in the water.

Having to opt-out of tracking feels like another nail in the coffin.

~~~
sdegutis
The world is a museum of echo chambers. You can't escape it, it's in our
nature. People _want_ confirmation bias.

~~~
simonswords82
Look no further than Brexit and /r/unitedkingdom for a perfect example of
this. You would _not_ think that half the UK population voted to leave the EU
based on the rhetoric in that sub. The pro-remain echo is deafening.

~~~
keithpeter
Sample of UK population that posts on Reddit may not be representative of UK
electorate (and also about 37.5% of those in the UK electorate voted to leave
the EU).

But I take your point about echo-chambers. That is one of the reasons I lurk
and post here.

------
LeoPanthera
I first noticed this yesterday when nothing was loading. Turned out
"out.reddit.com" was down, thus breaking every single link.

That got turned off immediately.

------
benologist
They are or have been experimenting with forced registration to view content
too -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11955938](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11955938)

~~~
Someone1234
Eww.

Pinterest does something similar, which is why I blocked it in Google Personal
Blocklist. The best way of encouraging people to join your site is to show
them what you have to offer, it isn't to put up a wall and make them jump
through hoops.

Part of Reddit's early success was due to how accessible the content was and
how easy they made it to sign up (e.g. three fields, no email address
required). That is not something they should throw by the wayside for short
term metrics.

------
rosalinekarr
I'm surprised they weren't doing this already.

~~~
minimaxir
> “At one point I just ask him, ‘how’s the data science team at Reddit?’ And
> [Ohanian] said, ‘what data science team?’” Weiner recounts to me.

[https://techcrunch.com/2016/05/25/reddit-cto-marty-weiner-
on...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/05/25/reddit-cto-marty-weiner-on-building-
a-home-for-the-internets-wildest-community/)

------
jsprogrammer
Looks like a stealth edit of the privacy policy. The policy [0] in place prior
to Jan 1 of this year doesn't mention it. The "announcement" [1] of the new
policy also didn't recognize the change.

Also, you apparently cannot (yet) delete [2] the data reddit already
surreptitiously collected.

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/help/privacypolicy?v=33a67dd2-e2c6-11...](https://www.reddit.com/help/privacypolicy?v=33a67dd2-e2c6-11e4-807a-22000b248ffc)

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3tlcil/we_ar...](https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3tlcil/we_are_updating_our_privacy_policy_effective_jan/)

[2]
[https://m.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4rl5to/outbound_cl...](https://m.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4rl5to/outbound_clicks_rollout_complete/d524dpl)

~~~
Silhouette
There's definitely something a bit shady about this, given that existing
accounts have been silently opted in and as a long-time Redditor and someone
who does actually scan privacy policies before signing up for things I still
had no idea about it until seeing this story on HN.

It's not as if Reddit is the only major site doing this kind of thing (hello,
search engines) but that doesn't make it any less creepy, IMHO.

~~~
jsprogrammer
It is all kinds of shady. The policy says that if material changes are made to
the policy, special notice, including sending notifications, will be made. As
I noted, even the policy change announcement does not include a mention of
this material change.

Why is this feature being prioritized and snuck in, while the most significant
announcement from their last raise (that users will receive 10% of the raise)
seems to have been all but forgotten?

It really puts this interview with Steve in some context:
[https://youtu.be/uSVqoW1rz6w?t=13m50s](https://youtu.be/uSVqoW1rz6w?t=13m50s)

~~~
jsprogrammer
Really? No one can counter this?

------
dang
How would you guys feel if we tracked outbound clicks on HN? I've always
assumed people would hate it, but on the other hand users frequently ask
things like how many people vote for a story without clicking on it, and it
_would_ gratify curiosity (the name of the game here) to know things like
that.

Edit: I suppose it's a dumb question because the answers can only be one-
sided.

~~~
pvg
To quote you _The mandate of the site is "stories that gratify intellectual
curiosity", and it seems pretty clear that both the curiosity and
gratification here are more voyeuristic than intellectual_

Would it gratify intellectual or voyeuristic curiosity?

~~~
dang
When I wrote that I did not have website analytics in mind.

I'm glad someone noticed it, though!

------
kup0
Doesn't seem to be a good decision for Reddit to only post this to r/changelog
and not post it in r/announcements.

Even if it's overall an innocuous thing, I find it shady that an opt-out
tracking system is not announced publicly to Reddit. Were they trying to hide
it until someone found it? Seems it would have been smarter for them to
control the message around this option than let their users do so.

------
1_2__3
Yeah I found this out the hard way when my content blocker stopped letting me
click on anything in Reddit. It's actually pretty shady.

~~~
necessity
What are you using? I'm using NoScript, but had to allow reddit.com and
redditstatic.com, otherwise "reply" and "edit" buttons do not work. HN works
just fine without JS. I find it odd that before allowing redditstatic,
NoScript offers to block googleanalytics.com, but after allowing there isn't
that option anymore, as if it was somehow being loaded.

------
beedogs
Just another reason to delete your reddit account with regularity. I've lost
count of how many accounts I've been through now.

~~~
scrollaway
Really?

1\. Why do you think deleting and creating a new account helps? The data isn't
account-bound, it's aggregate.

2\. Do you realize there's an option in the account settings to disable it?
Deleting your account only serves to reset that option.

3\. If you're against reddit's behaviour, why do you continue using the site?

It's funny, your post feels pretty representative of what I've come to realize
is "privacy extremism". In the name of privacy, refusing to tolerate or even
_understand_ what websites, companies etc are doing. It's counterproductive to
your own cause. I mean, even if you thought you were doing yourself a favour
deleting your own accounts, you're a fool if you think it's not possible to
associate your old accounts to your new ones.

~~~
beedogs
Frankly, I don't care what you think is ideal user behaviour. Users on reddit
are by-and-large such feral pieces of garbage that deleting one's account and
starting over every couple of months is a necessity anyway.

Once the trolls there start stalking you simply for making comments, you'll
understand.

------
pbreit
Can the page figure that with a JavaScript "watcher" or do the links have to
be "physically" intercepted and redirected?

~~~
soared
Very simple with js, or 0 lines of code with google tag manager.
[http://www.amazeemetrics.com/en/blog/google-tag-manager-
tuto...](http://www.amazeemetrics.com/en/blog/google-tag-manager-tutorial-
part-1-tracking-outbound-links-gtm-version-2)

~~~
pdkl95
Thankfully google tag manager is one of the first things to be blocked at my
router, right after GA.

This kind of unethical behavior is going to bite the industry in the long run.
Get informed consent first.

~~~
soared
That is really interesting and something I've never heard of. But, do you
really think any (>1%) of users will ever care? I understand adblocking (and
block all ads myself), but I fully support a site's decision to track with ga
and gtm.

~~~
pdkl95
> users will ever care?

Then make them care.

> track with ga and gtm

That is a _far_ bigger problem than advertising. I'm fine with sites that
track the pages they serve, because that is local only. The problem is when
these per-site events are _aggregated_ into a single database.

If someone has the event log of _every website you visit_ , not only do they
have your entire reading list, they also have a very accurate picture of your
pattern-of-life. Google can probably estimate e.g. when you sleep or the
length of your commute simply from the _timestamps_ of the GA events they can
correlate to your account.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern-of-
life_analysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern-of-life_analysis)

~~~
soared
Worst case scenario, Google, FB, and the US Gov have access to that kind of
data. Google/FB both say they don't record that, or destroy/change it before
giving advertisers access to it.

I see your point, but realistically I don't think any organization could/would
ever do this. Outside of NSA vs. Snowden type cases, but I guess that is where
it really counts.

------
J_Darnley
I hope to see all those complaining over on Voat
([https://voat.co/](https://voat.co/)) tomorrow. The programming subverse
definitely needs more activity.

------
cJ0th
I don't mean to be snarky but I guess I am genuinely 'out of the loop' as they
say: What user base is reddit trying to attract atm ?

------
known
Change it in [https://www.reddit.com/prefs/](https://www.reddit.com/prefs/)

------
chii
the thing i hate isn't that there's tracking, but that it now takes an extra
redirect to click on anything.

Also don't like tracking in general for privacy reasons, but it's a minor
concern next to performance.

------
frou_dh
Something I find bizarre about the current mobile reddit website is
notifications at the bottom of the screen which must be dismissed, that
include "you have been disconnected from the internet" and "you have been
reconnected to the internet", as a consequence of Wifi changes.

You are just a damn website! I do want every website considering itself so
important that it needs to subsume duties of the OS and present them with its
own branding.

~~~
Someone1234
I don't follow. The banner is based on if the JavaScript on the page can
communicate with the Reddit server so things like upvote/downvote/save/hide
will be correctly stored.

~~~
frou_dh
Show an error if/when the user tries to initiate an action. It's ludicrous to
have to tap to dismiss "you have been reconnected to the internet" popovers on
(potentially multiple) websites.

