
A Novel Concept: Silent Book Clubs Offer Introverts a Space to Socialize - sohkamyung
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/12/740897970/a-novel-concept-silent-book-clubs-offer-introverts-a-space-to-socialize
======
bootsz
> _I would say that I 'm an introvert who's really good at pretending to be an
> extrovert for small amounts of time _

In other words: an introvert. There seems to be a widespread misconception
that introversion means being "shy" and not talking to people, when in reality
it is more about where you draw energy from. The result is tons of people
self-identifying as "extroverted introverts"[1], presumably in an attempt to
signal that they are not totally devoid of social skills, when in reality
introversion has nothing to do with that.

[1] When I was single I saw this surprisingly often in online dating profiles.
Interestingly, for all the many people I've seen identify this way, I've never
seen a single person self-identify as the opposite: an "introverted
extrovert".

~~~
nkrisc
It's a very common misconception. One I even held myself until recently. The
more I thought about it, I realized that while I am introverted, I do like
being around people. I'm perfectly happy to be with and socialize with people
- as long as I don't have to be the center of attention or life of the party.
Interestingly it was a 3 month stint doing full-time remote work that made me
realize this.

Luckily when socializing with other introverts, they're generally OK with
silence and gaps in the conversation, it's not awkward. And when socializing
with extroverts they're happy to dominate the conversation and I'm happy to
let them and just listen.

~~~
brokenmachine
I'd call myself an introvert, but I definitely get a bit awkward with silences
in conversation, except when I'm with good friends.

When there's an extrovert dominating and thus no silence at all, I just get
tired of listening.

~~~
nkrisc
Sure, I feel that too sometimes. Sometimes it's because I don't know the other
person well so I don't know how they feel about it, so I start to worry that
it feels awkward to them and that makes me want to alleviate it for their
sake. Often I'm probably just overthinking it.

It can also be tiring when someone dominates a conversation, it really just
depends who it is. I have some friends who I could listen to all day, and
they'd happily talk all day.

~~~
brokenmachine
>I have some friends who I could listen to all day, and they'd happily talk
all day.

I have those friends too, but unfortunately I also have some acquaintances
that I can only listen to for a minute, yet they happily talk all day.

Sometimes their extrovert nature can override recognition of the audience's
engagement level.

------
ddtaylor
People often equate introvert to mean "doesn't prefer to be around people" and
extroverts to mean "loves to be around people", but that's essentially a myth.

The best layman explanation I have heard is that extroverts are "recharged" by
being around others whereas introverts recharge by being alone. For example, I
really like being around people, but the idea of not having time to myself to
recharge can be exhausting.

~~~
CPLX
> extroverts are "recharged" by being around others whereas introverts
> recharge by being alone

Is there any actual support for this theory besides its status as an internet
meme?

~~~
tonyarkles
Of course N=1 and all that, but as a meme that describes how my life went from
my teenage years to now, 20 years later, it fits very very well. Maybe you
don't like the word, but as a recharge-alone-overt, I don't particularly care
about the specific label, I just want to spend Sunday afternoon quietly with a
book :)

------
WhompingWindows
Forget the introvert/extrovert trap that so many comments/articles fall into.

I don't join book clubs precisely because I don't want to commit to reading
that material on that schedule. The idea of simply meeting up with friends for
an hour to silently read whatever we feel, hey, I like that. I can read LotR
or HP again, someone else can read sci-fi or mysteries, and we can chat about
that or whatever else. It's a great alternative to reading one and only one
book.

~~~
ccmonnett
Indeed! I have had similar... hesitation? when it comes to getting in a book
club. I love reading, I have several friends that love reading, but I couldn't
possibly imagine regularly reading something that we all agree upon in order
to talk about on a regular basis. We'd all rather read our own stuff.

It's not even about not wanting to read something - I just want to feel
engaged with what I'm reading and my friends seem to agree. It's how you can
let a book sit on a shelf for 6 months then pick it up and read it in 3 days -
sometimes it just 'grabs' you.

------
thomasfromcdnjs
An unpopular opinion that I'm sure will garner negative reactions because
everyone likes to self diagnose themselves, but I find the introvert/extrovert
dichotomy quite weak.

Most people who I meet who proclaim they are "introverted" have just not
invested any time into building their social skills.

Most people who I meet who proclaim they are "extroverted" are people who are
not comfortable with being alone for whatever reasons.

It is seemingly obvious to me that both social skills and being with one self
are both equally important.

Deciding which one you are by taking a shallow survey with surface level
questions seems unintelligent.

Choosing one to identify with seems irrationally limiting to who you could be.

~~~
m-watson
I think that there is for sure an aspect of underdeveloped skills. That could
come from lack of interest, background/culture/environment, or any other
number of reasons sure. But I think a bigger aspect is how psychologists often
phrase it (sure it is wishy washy) but where do you get your energy. Some
people are going to be more comfortable with people around and others feel
more relaxed alone. That can and most likely will change over any individuals
life but it is important to recognize what environments to go to when you need
a recharge. And yes, people love to self-diagnose and take surface level
quizzes, but this also does seem to be a real phenomenon different
personalities have and understanding your own and others personalities will
improve everyone's social interactions. So I agree, we should all work on
being with ourselves as well as how to interact with others. But we also need
to know, when feeling stressed, if we should retreat to a quiet room or a
crowed get together.

And just a last point is that it seems like this silent book club is doing
what you suggest, it is an introvert going to a place they feel more
comfortable which will in time develop their social skills.

~~~
logfromblammo
Developing a skill should have a payoff. When someone does not perceive as
great a reward in social interactions, the motivation to develop their social
skills is less.

If social skills were on a tech tree, introverts would put points into the
"polite disengagement" branch first, while extroverts are still putting their
early points into "bonus friend slot" and "multiple-participant schedule
coordination" and such.

Some people might just recruit an extrovert for their sole friend slot, drop a
single point on "Irish Exit", let the friend set up all the social events, and
just vanish whenever they're _done_. That's a perfectly reasonable social
skills build, up until the extrovert reaches their friend cap and drops the
introvert into the acquaintance pool, to free up a slot for someone with
better synergy bonuses.

And this is the sort of thinking that tends to drive off people who don't view
(or don't want to view) the universe as a simulation that could be hackable
with a better understanding of the data structures, and who don't want to have
nerdy, speculative-fiction conversations about whether "deflect blame for loud
fart" is a skill or a perk.

------
noisy_boy
I remember my college library being sort of a refuge and doorway to the world
of knowledge without any attached expectation of socialization. I spent my
time reading on everything that I found interesting/new (excluding the
subjects I was studying for getting my degree). This knowledge didn't directly
add to my grades (I think) but really opened my mind to the (pre-internet)
world and its past, present and possible future, more so since I never had
exposure to this amount of concentrated source of knowledge before.

The difference between that and what we do on internet now is that these were
books by authors who spend a good chunk of their lives being authorities on
the topics instead of someone dumping their musings on the internet
(admittedly not all of which is substandard).

I think this kind of focused consumption (because you have to be physically
there) of high quality content in an "aimless" manner is underrated and
happening less.

------
anoplus
I have a vague idea that maybe some people need "framework" for socializing.
Making it clearer task like framework for developing applications. I still
don't know how that "framework" should look like.

I am a person who can't "just call and talk to him/her aimlessly" or "just ask
friends to go out" as some relatives recommended me to do. I can spend hours
trying to crack the task of "socializing" as if it is some hard puzzle.

------
izzydata
I am skeptical that this really gets at the heart of what makes socializing as
an introvert different than for an extrovert. Being in a social situation
brings some level of anxiety to the table even if everyone is silent and that
eventually becomes taxing enough to need to be alone for awhile. Maybe it
would take longer to reach that point, but there is nothing wrong with the way
interacting with people currently works for an introverted individual.

------
gravelc
That's a fantastic idea. Just to escape from kids/work and have a good read
sounds kind of magical. For some reason it seems more appealing than just
going to a park or library and doing it. The socialising would be kind of
reliant on reading roughly the same genre I suspect - don't think a romance
and sci-fi would lead to a lot of conversation starters, but you never know.

------
willis936
The use of the word “novel” in contexts like these is a pet peeve of mine. It
seems to be used solely for making an idea sound good regardless of merit.
Yes, there is value in signaling originality, but the tone feels self
congratulatory. Perhaps this is just a product of my experiences in academia,
where the use of the word “novel” seemed like a goal.

~~~
scandinavegan
In this case it's also a pun, because they're talking about a book club.

~~~
brianmcc
Exactly - novel meaning "new" is perfectly valid usage but it's the dual
meaning that's the intention here, the "I am reading a novel" one.

This got me wondering why books are called novels - apparently from the
Italian "novella": [https://penandthepad.com/history-
novel-6305937.html](https://penandthepad.com/history-novel-6305937.html)

------
layoutIfNeeded
Ah, the Diogenes Club!

~~~
lwhalen
"If only hunger could be satisfied by such vigorous rubbing!"

~~~
nstart
I for one, appreciate the reference. Thank you for the laugh :)

------
cafard
"Classic rock is blaring from the speakers, but at this table, silence rings
out."

Just what I want: classic rock while I'm trying to read something of moderate
complexity.

If I want to be around people all reading their own books in silence, I can
catch the Metrobus. (Actually, most days I catch the Metrobus willy-nilly;
what with cell phones, the reading isn't as silent as it could be, but the bus
gets me to and from work.)

------
carvink
There are silent writing meetups too.
[https://shutupwrite.com/](https://shutupwrite.com/)

------
hos234
Similar to HN in some ways. There is not much small talk happening here. And
no obligation for anyone to talk about some preassigned subject.

~~~
lonelappde
HN is nearly all small talk about the news. We aren't posting and critiquing
each other's research papers. And we get a list of preassigning topics every
day.

~~~
mLuby
As a way for people to talk about unimportant topics, small talk serves a few
vital functions:

1\. it allows politeness without deepening the relationship.

2\. it can be a breadth-first search of mutually-stimulating topics for in-
depth conversation (which may lead to a deeper relationship if desired).

3\. it can avoid accidentally offending someone with controversial topics or
opinions.

4\. is quick to disengage from, unlike a story or debate, so is useful as a
conversational holding pattern.

HN doesn't really fit any of those. Sure, some comments will say "my kid does
this", but I find they're rare on HN (and usually downvoted); in general,
comments are adding new data or engaging in debate.

------
quickthrower2
A hacking club could be set up around the same idea: 1 hour of coding in
silence and no rules outside of that. Pizza and beer provided!

~~~
lonelappde
How is it social if it's silent? Do you use instant messaging?

~~~
michaelt
In the article, "Once the bell rings, silent reading time commences. After an
hour, the bell rings again. [...] [Participants] chat about anything, before
and after the designated reading time."

So presumably the 1 hour of coding in silence would be followed by as much
time as you liked for pizza and socialising.

------
fencepost
I call this "sociable vs social." I'm regularly out and doing things in public
locations where I _may_ end up interacting with people beyond basic
greetings/nods/"tall Pike," but that doesn't mean I'm there to socialize so
much as to get some undemanding human contact.

------
odyssey7
Huh, I (and many others) kind of used to do this in undergrad. We’d get a
study room, read things from our different classes to ourselves, and schedule
breaks every 20 or so minutes to talk, and repeat. It was very effective and
enjoyable studying.

------
hellbanner
> The idea began with two friends reading together at a bar in San Francisco,
> annoyed by the assigned reading of a demanding book club. Because everything
> was invented in San Francisco in the last 20 years.

------
tw1010
I can't for the life of me figure out how to read around other people (even in
silence). Is there something wrong with me? I bet I could learn but I'm not
sure how.

~~~
logfromblammo
You just have to try to read around other people, until you can. You can't
literally shut off your sensory inputs, but you can learn to hear without
listening, and see without observing.

Eventually, you may reach the point where you won't realize that someone is
trying to get your attention until they actually poke you with a sharp stick.
Or maybe just tap your shoulder.

------
nkozyra
I don't have much discernible social anxiety when it comes to going somewhere
and meeting and talking to strangers.

This idea would make me far more anxious than just talking to people.

------
jvagner
Reminded of the conversation a couple of days ago about "third places" that
are gone... indie coffee shops were great for this.

------
sunsetSamurai
It seems like everybody is an introvert these days, or is it just me that
thinks that?

~~~
matfil
Perhaps some environmental changes have caused people to think more about
whether or not they're introverts. Open offices seem like a strong candidate
to me (but there might well be others).

~~~
foobarandgrill
God I hate open offices. So tiring.

