

Virtualmin, Inc. sponsoring logo design contest for Webmin (your work seen by millions of users) - SwellJoe
http://inthebox.webmin.com/webmin-logo-contest

======
rms
What happens if all the logos you get suck? Do you still have to pay a winner
$500, even if you don't use that person's logo? How are you going to handle
revisions?

The best designers are far too busy getting paid to make a logo that probably
won't get them any money and they also don't need the publicity. I have a
friend who had worked with a positively brilliant designer from Uruguay. The
designer's quote for a logo for me was $500 for delivery within a month and
$600 for less than a week.

If this gets you extra publicity, great. But I think you'd have a better
chance of getting a great logo if you just found a logo designer with great
style and paid that person $500. Does Kevin Hale do freelance logos?

~~~
nailer
Logoworks (now owned by HP) will give you a logo with unlimited revisions for
$400 US.

I used them for the VentureCake logo. and they had what I wanted after 3.
Don't expect a lot of the initial concepts.

~~~
SwellJoe
I tried LogoWorks for Virtualmin, Inc. over two years ago, and the suggestions
I got back were horrible--really, truly, awful. One was the Verizon V-Cast
logo (literally...not even a little different...same colors and all). I even
paid them extra for additional concepts and such. It may have been a fluke,
and really, SitePoint contests are the same basic concept; as far as I know,
LogoWorks is a bunch of freelancers that work on spec, too.

The difference is that we get to have fun with the contest. we have a mailing
list and a forum both full of users who'll get a kick out of discussing the
logos. They'll also feel some ownership in the new logo, if they get to take
part in picking it. I don't see how we can possibly lose on the deal (holding
it at SitePoint assures that the worst case of nobody showing up doesn't
happen).

There's also the tradition of Open Source projects choosing their logos via
contests to uphold. Now that Webmin is a wizened old-timer in the Open Source
world, it's got a responsibility to uphold the finest traditions of its
community. Or something.

~~~
rms
Ah, ok, I wasn't clear on the distinction between Webmin and Virtualmin... a
logo contest makes more sense for an open source project.

For anyone else looking for a logo, I'd recommend you post a logo request on
<http://www.programmermeetdesigner.com/>. The last time I posted I got a broad
range of bids, from $30 to $500 to price unlisted. Then you look through
everyone's portfolio and pick the person with the style you like the most.

~~~
SwellJoe
Yeah, I've never used SitePoint contests before, and may never use them again
(we'll see). It does rule out some of the best known designers, because the
best known don't need to work on spec, but the hope (as with any of the
methods being discussed in this thread) is that you'll get the "soon to be
best known" designer working on your project.

If the logo we get sucks, it'll hopefully suck less than the current one, and
we'll try again in a year. The entries so far aren't great, but they aren't
all terrible either. We're only a few hours into the contest, and there's
already at least one that I think is better than the current logo. So, we're
already ahead. The other neat thing is that the SitePoint contests allow
everyone to see what's already been submitted--it's a constant refinement
process where everybody knows what everybody else is doing. I dunno if that'll
really encourage everyone to bring their A game, but it certainly is more fun
than staring at the 12-15 logo ideas I got from LogoWorks was.

I'm still groping to find the best way to get jobs like this done--so far,
nothing has been satisfactory. But then, until recently, we had very little
money to spend (I was going to put up $1000, but it seemed pointless--$500
makes ours the highest paying logo contest running right now...I might bump it
to $750 before it's over, if it needs a little extra oomph). I still managed
to waste plenty of money and time on logos, though. ;-)

Best case, the logo will rock, and we'll have found ourselves a little known
designer who works reasonably cheap, but whose work we love. I'm not holding
my breath, but it could happen.

~~~
rms
I'm looking through SitePoint now and I'm actually rather impressed by the
functionality and surprised at how well the contests seem to work, even for
much lower dollar amounts. I have no doubt that you'll get some good entries
and I imagine watching the logos come in is a lot of fun too.

~~~
SwellJoe
Agreed. I had been there in the past, and it seemed pretty slapped
together...but they've used their success wisely by investing in better
technology. The contests system is, so far, top-notch.

------
nailer
A new logo and look and feel would be nice, but there are a lot of other ways
to improve your product. Virtualmin doesn't really differ from Plesk in a
significant way.

Have you checked out the features Splunk or Google Analytics offers in terms
of log analysys?

Say I have a lot of users and servers where authentication fails. I'd love to
be able to pick a period (by dragging along a timeline of logs), zoom into to
a period, and get any messages regarding LDAP from that time. Then I'd like to
take that group of server and regenerate a certificate for each of them to fix
the problem.

~~~
SwellJoe
"A new logo and look and feel would be nice, but there are a lot of other ways
to improve your product. Virtualmin doesn't really differ from Plesk in a
significant way."

We're not talking about Virtualmin here. We're talking about Webmin, the Open
Source general purpose web-based system administration tool that Virtualmin
sits on top of. Webmin is more popular than Plesk or cPanel by a large margin,
but it doesn't really compete with either (it's a different kind of product--
Virtualmin competes with Plesk and cPanel, and nothing really competes with
Webmin because nothing has the range of functionality of Webmin). Webmin is
downloaded over two million times per year. We're not desperate for users
here...

"Have you checked out the features Splunk or Google Analytics offers in terms
of log analysys?"

Of course. Virtualmin will setup Google Analytics tagging automagically (along
with several other popular analytics services like Clicky and MyBlogLog, and
it'll also configure the Open Source AWstats and Webalizer analytics tools).
But neither Webmin or Virtualmin is an analytics product (and cPanel and Plesk
do not offer analytics functionality).

That said, we've built in system data analytics in the most recent version.
See screenshot: <http://www.virtualmin.com/images/screenshots/statistics.png>

And we have other analytics tools in development. But again, this isn't about
Virtualmin at all. We're just giving our favorite Open Source project a new
logo. It's not at all motivated by trying to make more Virtualmin sales--we
were Webmin developers before Virtualmin existed, and Webmin is important to
us. It needs a new logo, so we're holding a contest to get one. Nothing sneaky
here.

"Say I have a lot of users and servers where authentication fails. I'd love to
be able to pick a period (by dragging along a timeline of logs), zoom into to
a period, and get any messages regarding LDAP from that time. Then I'd like to
take that group of server and regenerate a certificate for each of them to fix
the problem."

I have no idea what you're talking about. But I wish you luck in your
endeavors. ;-)

~~~
nailer
>> "Have you checked out the features Splunk or Google Analytics offers in
terms of log analysys?"

> Of course.

>> Say I have a lot of users and servers where authentication fails. I'd love
to be able to pick a period (by dragging along a timeline of logs), zoom into
to a period, and get any messages regarding LDAP from that time. Then I'd like
to take that group of server and regenerate a certificate for each of them to
fix the problem

> I have no idea what you're talking about.

It seems like you haven't used Splunk at all.

I know your a lot of your competitors (eg Plesk) are similarly basic. This
doesn't mean that it wouldn't be good to innovate.

> I wish you luck in your endeavors. ;-)

One doesn't have to build something to have an opinion on it. If you think
otherwise, you may enjoy other forums more.

~~~
SwellJoe
>>> Say I have a lot of users and servers where authentication fails. I'd love
to be able to pick a period (by dragging along a timeline of logs), zoom into
to a period, and get any messages regarding LDAP from that time. Then I'd like
to take that group of server and regenerate a certificate for each of them to
fix the problem

>> I have no idea what you're talking about.

> It seems like you haven't used Splunk at all.

Hehehe...You misinterpret my remark. I'm saying that what you're describing
isn't our problem set with Virtualmin. I'm saying I don't understand why
you're talking about something completely outside of the problem domain
Virtualmin sets out to solve as though we've failed in being unable to perform
the tasks you describe. I'm simply confused by all the smoke and waving hands.

> I know your a lot of your competitors (eg Plesk) are similarly basic. This
> doesn't mean that it wouldn't be good to innovate.

Here you're exhibiting a lack of knowledge about what we're building (you've
already done that earlier by saying, "Virtualmin doesn't really differ from
Plesk in a significant way", but I wasn't going to really argue that point),
rather than pointing out why we're "similarly basic". The problems you
describe aren't the problems the vast majority of virtual hosting customers
need or even want to solve.

Splunk seems like a wonderful product, and I'm glad you like it. But it
doesn't compete with Virtualmin. It's not even in the same general area--there
are some places where Virtualmin overlaps with products that aren't direct
competitors (because we are innovating in far-reaching ways and stepping into
a lot of different areas that effect hosting providers and their customers).

There's even more where Webmin overlaps, because Webmin covers a lot more
ground, including system monitoring and alerts. Splunk doesn't address any of
the virtual hosting management problems our products set out to solve--that
doesn't make Splunk "similarly limited" to other products that don't do what
Virtualmin does. If you don't need Virtualmin features, and you do need Splunk
features, then by all means use Splunk.

> One doesn't have to build something to have an opinion on it. If you think
> otherwise, you may enjoy other forums more.

Certainly. I'm just not sure you've really grasped who our customers are
(hosting providers), and what they do with our products (enable their
customers to build full-featured websites or applications quickly and without
human support). This awareness is a rather vital component in our decision
making process. ;-)

That said, we do have timeline features coming in a new analytics product that
we're developing (and it shows up in a limited form in the system data
analytics graphs provided by Virtualmin). I'm not disagreeing that there are
many areas for massive improvement in the analytics and reporting
fields...there are. It's barely been touched, even by the best products in the
field. But Virtualmin remains a virtual hosting management tool--not an
analytics product. It'll work seamlessly with these other products, but their
job description is quite different, and their customer set will vary quite a
bit.

------
SwellJoe
Also of note, I've wrangled Kevin Hale, of Wufoo/Particle Tree fame into being
our celebrity judge. If that doesn't make this contest awesome, I don't know
what awesome is.

------
german
Is that URL ok?

I cant see the site.

~~~
SwellJoe
Loads fine for me, but I'll double check our DNS and such (it's a new domain,
so I might have screwed it up when moving it from a private server to a public
one).

You can also hit the SitePoint contest link directly here:
<http://contests.sitepoint.com/contests/3497>

~~~
german
Thanks, I see great logos there, maybe I'll post my own design, good luck with
the contest!

~~~
SwellJoe
Go for it. We're really impressed with several of the entries, so far. Even if
we stopped it today, we'd already have a half dozen logos better than the
current one to choose from...still got 9 days to go. I'm thinking we'll be
doing more of these for future design tasks.

