
MoviePass Adds a Million Subscribers, Even If Theaters Aren’t Sold on It - dankohn1
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/business/media/moviepass-theaters-tickets.html
======
11thEarlOfMar
I've been trying to recreate the movie experience at my house for decades:
Large screen high definition display, high-end surround sound, etc. but it
just does not work. Daylight, phones ringing, kids playing, dryer buzzer, and
myriad distractions diminish the experience and I'm always left with notion
that it's never as enjoyable at home.

Theaters will always have a place in entertainment. And with the recent
addition of la-z-boy furniture and reserved seating, there's simply no
contest. Now, I want to experience all my favorite films in the communal
environment of a theater. Would be great to be able to 'upvote' classic films
and have them play at a local house, and watch along with others who like it
enough to be there, place and time. Maybe that's where MoviePass is headed?

~~~
joefourier
If you have a dedicated home theatre in your house with a projector, sound
system, blocked windows, noiseproofing and plushy seats, and treat it just
like you would going to the movies - mute phones, have the kids sit quietly
(or be out of the house), you can get an experience equal or superior to most
cinemas.

~~~
tarboreus
Does it have to be a solstice or can you also do it on Leap Day?

------
nodesocket
If you want to see some stock market manipulation and “pump and dump” look at
the parent company Helios and Matheson Analytics ($HMNY) 6 month graph —
[https://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AHMNY&ei=RAxFWt...](https://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AHMNY&ei=RAxFWtnTIIGC2Aaah52YDw)

~~~
thebiglebrewski
Haha wat. Can anyone explain this?!

~~~
burkaman
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-11/moviepass...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-11/moviepass-
backer-boosts-funding-warns-service-may-not-make-it)

------
BEEdwards
I'm still not sure how this company makes money or how they make the theaters
money.

So they sell tickets for way under what they cost, they take their cut and
pass it on to the theater and studio, and then claim money somehow that simply
putting butts in seats is their value add.

It just doesn't make sense.

~~~
solatic
Consumer psychology.

Instead of $10 a month think of it as $120 a year. If a theater charges $12 a
ticket (just to pull a round yet realistic number that means less than a movie
a month at $10/month) then an annualized MoviePass subscription breaks even at
10 tickets per year.

As somebody who likes to go to the movies, how many times did you go to a
theater this year, really? Six, seven times maybe? Maybe once in the late
winter or spring, two or three times in the summer, once in the fall, whatever
Star Wars movie comes out in the winter, maybe another time with your family
during the holidays?

The truth is that people don't really change their media consumption habits,
in aggregate, when they're presented with unlimited subscriptions. People just
like to feel like they _could_ get anything they want and that they don't have
to look at the price tag anymore, but they don't _actually_ consume more in
aggregate. Sure, you get some binge subscribers who exploit the system, but
they're not enough to bring down the entire enterprise.

If the industry could transition from $10/album to $10/month unlimited music
subscriptions, from $10 eBooks to $10/month Kindle Unlimited eBook
subscriptions, from $10 DVDs (actually, usually more than that) to $10/month
Netflix subscriptions, then why can't the industry support a transition from
$10 movie tickets to $10/month theater subscriptions?

~~~
adjkant
For me, I certainly have changed my habits, because if movies are free, I am
willing to see a lot more of them. Most movies aren't worth seeing in theatres
for the previous price point with the exceptions you more or less listed. The
lower one makes it worth it for me. I've seen 13 movies in the past 4 months.
I would have seen maybe 5 or less otherwise. At my ticket price (which is
actually around $12 a ticket), even without changing my habits, I would have
still saved money at 4. I know too many college students like myself thriving
off this.

~~~
ProfessorLayton
I completely agree. I and a few of my friends have Moviepass, and it has
become easier to go see something only a few in the group really want to see,
or kind of want to see, but not willing to pay $12 for it. Tickets are so
expensive I only need to go 1x/mo to break even.

I'm also a lot more willing to spend $8 for a tub of popcorn when it "cost me
$0" to see the movie (I know). Before Moviepass I was going to the movies
about 2x/mo, and now it is up to maybe 3x, depending on whats out there and
how busy I am.

~~~
adjkant
It's amazing to me that time is really the only limiting factor, I imagine for
many others. I've gone to 5 movies in the past 20 days because of being off
for the holidays.

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runwerks
i've read that you can't 'pre-book' seats for theaters that have reserved
seating a la fandango. you have to wait until you get to the theater to choose
your seats. if they can fix this, i'll subscribe right away.

~~~
pwinnski
You have heard correctly. MoviePass requires you to be physically present at
the theater before "checking in" to the movie for which you intend to purchase
a ticket. Only then can you use the MoviePass Mastercard to buy your ticket.

So you can pre-book and reserve seats, but only in person. If you live very
close to a theater, you could pre-book at lunchtime and come back that evening
to watch the movie, for example.

It definitely requires you to be physically present, though. There is no
online ticket-buying with MoviePass.

~~~
runwerks
there's got to be a way to get that to work...

------
bkor
In Netherlands various cinemas have their own unlimited scheme. It's usually
19-20 EUR while still needing to pay extra for 3D/IMAX. One (Pathe) charges 28
EUR to avoid the surcharges.

The price point of MoviePass is interesting and 24 USD (~20 EUR) is obviously
much more than the 10 USD quoted here. Still, buying only at the theater is
annoying. I prefer making a seat reservation and arriving max 5 minutes before
the movie starts (there are loads of advertisements anyway).

Downsize of the Dutch unlimited options: you still have to arrive at least 30
minutes early and this gets annoying really fast (30 minutes minimum early is
35-40 in practice plus the 10-15 minutes of watching advertisements you've
seen before)... quickly turns into loads of wasted time. I tried when they had
a special (4 months for 40 EUR, so 10 EUR/month).

------
DrScump
There is a Costco promo for Moviepass + Fandor for $90/year, but it has a lot
of negative reviews[0] this month (click on the "1 Star" bar in the review
section; you can only navigate there via the javascript links).

[0] [https://www.costco.com/MoviePass-and-Fandor-12-Month-
Subscri...](https://www.costco.com/MoviePass-and-Fandor-12-Month-Subscription-
eVoucher.product.100395930.html?pageSize=96&catalogId=10701&dept=All&langId=-1&keyword=moviepass&storeId=10301&krypto=5OUWCpTOg0jEC9gj8gRGtHWUs%2BZXTIIMuItxc5GbCDORpy05jHXBzrlXprjbBisndqEZWoNCdmLCFqqR8wlhUj4OOC1u5L3MyQtUeWJ200U%3D)

The Costco page stresses that you _have_ to have a mobile device with the
Moviepass app running when you check in at the theater, but Moviepass's own
signup process doesn't say that.

------
gnicholas
> _The real treasure in this venture, he contends, is the trove of data about
> consumer tastes and habits that MoviePass can collect. It hopes to sell that
> data to studio marketers._

I wonder if the privacy-minded folks on HN are averse to this. Or is it ok
since you're getting discounted movie tickets in return?

I also wonder if they're going to take movie consumption data and marry it
with other data they can glean about you (preferred theater location,
residence and/or work from geolocation when you open the app, etc.). That data
could be sold to folks other than just studios, since they can market related
products or correlated products to you.

~~~
jonny_eh
They're kinda beyond discounted. It's a discount if you see one film a month,
but beyond that, it's basically free. It's such an insane value, I don't care
if they know that I see every movie with a fresh tomato rating.

~~~
thaumaturgy
I kind of want to share my viewing habits with studios that are willing to
listen. They've been turning out some real garbage the last few years.

I'm fairly privacy-paranoid in general, but in this case, I'm maybe okay with
it.

~~~
eat_veggies
It's because in this case, the value you're getting out of giving up your data
is tangible and actually worth it. With facebook et al., not so much.

------
gnicholas
> _Cinemark, the third-largest exhibitor, introduced its own subscription
> service in early December. For $8.99 a month, members can see one movie a
> month and receive a 20 percent discount on concessions, among other perks._

So I can get 30 movies per month for $10 or 1 movie per month plus 20% off
concessions for $9? It'd take a helluva lot of popcorn to make that math add
up...

~~~
michaelchisari
I don't see any way that the "one movie per day" model continues. At some
point, they're going to cancel it and replace it with a significantly limited
plan, and hope that a enough people stick with it anyways.

Otherwise, it's just unsustainable. They've got to be burning through VC money
like kindling.

~~~
gnicholas
I'm curious to know what the mean and median number of movies watched per
customer are. I don't think you can see the same movie twice, and there are
only so many movies that a given person would want to see in one month.

From the consumer side, if people think they're going to see at least 2 movies
per month, then this is a win. So the bar is pretty low, and I could see the
mean/median being around 3.5 movies per month. I'm sure there are some heavy
users, but there are probably also folks who forget to use it some months (but
don't cancel).

~~~
michaelchisari
MoviePass does allow multiple viewings of the same movie, that was a mistake
in TOS wording on their part.

 _there are only so many movies that a given person would want to see in one
month._

True, for the given person you're thinking about. What about a person on
disability? A cinephile? A teenager who has the whole summer off?

It's a tragedy of the commons problem. If you have one movie nut who goes to
12 movies a month (not difficult if you live in a city a short bus ride or
walk to a theater) then you need 11 users to forget they have it. The outliers
have a potential 30x rate.

Not to mention that those outliers could be going to IMAX 3D showings in a
major city at a premium theater ($22.75 at the Chinese Theater, for instance),
and you've got a $682.50 monthly bill for one user without violating the TOS.

As far as I can tell they're treating this like a gym membership, but ignoring
the fundamental difference: Going to the gym sucks, going to the movies is a
blast.

This is why I think as the service continues (and the money backing it dries
up), they'll introduce more and more restrictions.

~~~
Kihashi
> Not to mention that those outliers could be going to IMAX 3D showings in a
> major city at a premium theater ($22.75 at the Chinese Theater, for
> instance), and you've got a $682.50 monthly bill for one user without
> violating the TOS.

You can't actually use MoviePass for premium showings (3D, IMAX, etc.). It
only works for standard 2D showings.

~~~
michaelchisari
You're right, but even just a standard showing at a place like Arclight is
$17.75. So a single ticket per month puts them at a loss for that user.

------
DrScump
Is there a _list_ of "participating" theaters anywhere?

I've tried a _dozen_ browser combinations (Chrome, Opera, mobile, in and out
of Incognito mode, 3 devices, all with Javascript enabled for everyone) and
can only get "Oops! Something went wrong!" with the map feature. I'd be fine
with an ordered list but see no such option on their site.

------
Touche
I'm sad to hear this honestly, I was hoping for this to fail to hasten studios
accepting that straight-to-digital is the future. Charge me $50 per movie to
watch them from the comfort of my home, please.

~~~
ac29
That's existed for a while, but the price is a little eye-popping: $35k for
the hardware and $500/rental. There doesn't seem to be much written about it
online since 2016, so its possible its defunct or nearly so.

[http://www.primacinema.com/](http://www.primacinema.com/)

~~~
Touche
IIRC to even buy that you have to have a home theater. They come to your house
and inspect to make sure it meets their standards. So yeah, it's not just the
price, it's essentially a status product; meant only for the super-rich to
show off that they have a home theater.

------
Shivetya
Damn if the article doesn't reek of being just one big advertisement for the
service. It is written as if the theaters have no choice in the face of
consumers wanting unrealistically cheap tickets.

A service with such an unrealistic price per month that it should be
impossible to lose subscribers and be just as impossible to be sustainable
once early investor money dries up. It just reminds me of the worst of the
early internet businesses, mainly all the grocery delivery attempts and now
boutique dinner delivery services

all the theater chains need to do is wait it out, count their money from all
these effectively free patrons, and then launch their own if desired version.
T

~~~
cmiles74
If theaters launched their own service, it would be one service per theater.
If you lived in an area with more than one chain, you'd either subscribe to
both or only go to one theater chain. Or, more likely, eventually grow
dissatisfied with the service and cancel.

MoviePass is definitely making things easier for the consumer. One
subscription, any theater at any time.

~~~
Spivak
I think the value-add of 'you can go to any theater' is a tough sell. If the
theater that I frequent offered a subscription that was any amount less than
MP I would probably switch. Why would I drive further to see a movie?

~~~
colept
If I have a MoviePass I can go to any theatre. That means I can go watch a
movie with my friend who lives in the Bay area, or my Grandmother who lives in
Arizona. Your question, "Why would I drive further to see a movie?" is exactly
why multi-chain subscription is superior. Because I don't always go to one
theatre in one city.

------
igaape
Is movie pass applicable at all movie theatres?? Trying to do the math to see
the value

~~~
allemagne
Their materials carefully imply that they aren't, but in my experience all
theaters are pretty much covered. Even the small artsy theater ran by a local
non-profit.

~~~
joemi
In my experience, most of the theaters in NYC are covered (including all the
AMCs) but there are a small few arthouse theaters that aren't covered. That
said, there are plenty of arthouse theaters in NYC that _are_ covered, so it's
not a problem at all for me.

A bigger issue (for some people) is that it doesn't cover 3D films and other
such fancy versions of films that also have regular versions. I personally
don't care (I don't like the 3D ones) but I imagine that could be undesirable.
Though, technically, there's nothing to stop you from using moviepass to see
those kinds of things, but it's against their rules, so if they catch you they
could cancel your subscription. I'm not sure how aggressively they check up on
those things though.

------
brownbat
Let's run some numbers.

MoviePass will buy all your movies in a month for $10. They plan to make it
back on monetized data. So one user ups his monthly movie consumption from 1
to 12. Let's say they get tickets at a bargain, $10 each. MP is paying > $100
a month to find out what movies this guy wants to see but isn't actually
willing to pay for.[0]

That's puzzling enough, but, sure, data is a fun paradox, some kind of
ubiquitous unobtanium, so for all I know they're getting it cheap. The actor
in this story that really confuses me is AMC. "Not welcome here?" Why again?

Listen AMC, I'm going to let you in on something. For every $10 "someone" pays
MoviePass, they are willing to buy 30 tickets.

No, look, no. I'm not saying "use proxies," like Redbox did to buy DVDs when
the studios tried to cut them out of the system.[1]

Because, while I have no idea whether that's legal, I do know you're terrified
of "value" customers filling seats. Discount entertainment terrifies you
because you make almost nothing on ticket sales and all your profit from high-
priced concessions. You need whales in seats. It's classic f2p, just somehow
with a magically sustainable[2] exorbitant cost of admission tacked on to help
you rent content at a ridiculous premium.[3]

So--drumoll--just advertise (hand out?) MoviePass subscriptions when people
buy concessions. Anyone who already eats your food is already a w--, er, your
target.[4] Not only will you get the MP ticket sales, so you can show foot
traffic,[5] but also, bonus!--this will free up more of your customers' income
for those ridiculously priced concessions.

[0] I have some cars I'd love to own, so if anyone wants to buy them for me, I
will let them know which ones. I'll sign a contract for exclusive use of that
data and everything.

[1] [http://www.slashfilm.com/retail-conspires-against-redbox-
by-...](http://www.slashfilm.com/retail-conspires-against-redbox-by-limiting-
dvd-purchases/)

Honestly though, the studios are probably already using proxies to buy MP
subscriptions, just like how publishing companies buy their own books in bulk
to drive up numbers. [1a] If not, ahem, studios, I'm going to let you in on
something...

[1a] [http://www.latimes.com/books/la-et-jc-handbook-for-
mortals-b...](http://www.latimes.com/books/la-et-jc-handbook-for-mortals-
bestseller-ya-20170824-story.html)

[2] Well, "sustainable" is TBD. But hey, people still buy cable for some
reason. Ok, bad analogy. Uh, people still listen to AM radio? Hang in there,
you too can be the niche medium of the future. Just start advertising dubious
health and investment products before the films, you'll get there.

[3] Sidenote - This whole new releases model -- Basically the studios are
trying to free ride on marketing? Which is the magic sauce that turns lousy
movies into hits, so says NPR.[3a] What if AMC just played old indie marathons
like the drive in, or the campus theater, for like a dollar a ticket, but
advertised the hell out of them? Oh, right, value customers... Ok, go the
other way. Follow the Karaoke Bangs where you can just stream whatever you
want on a big screen in a small room, hang out with your friends, and maybe
add steak dinners and champagne on demand. Just become a full service
restaurant with private rooms that look like people's fantasy living room
already.

[3a] [https://www.npr.org/2015/08/21/433402308/how-marketing-
machi...](https://www.npr.org/2015/08/21/433402308/how-marketing-machines-can-
make-lousy-movies-financially-successful)

[4] Here's where I clumsily avoid turning 'whale' into some kind of lazy fat
joke. Look, weight is tough, no one needs to pile on. But also look, AMC has
promotions for bags of popcorn with over a thousand Calories and drinks that
are nearly a liter and a half. Sure, popcorn is for "sharing," but how does 54
oz of sugar water fit in any healthy diet? You're making Big Tobacco look
like... like... Michael Pollan. Atul Gawande? Something something health
expert.

[5] Welcome to the late 2010s, where the theory that eyeballs are better than
revenue has been conclusively proven beyond any doubt, even if no one fully
understands how.

------
greggarious
Why buy a movie pass when I can just buy a ticket then theater hop after?

~~~
burntwater
Because you have morals?

------
exabrial
Better movies would help theaters out too... CGI still looks like CGI, even in
2017 it's pretty easy to identify a CGI helicopter or explosion. Then there's
the eternal topic of throwing violence and sex scenes at the consumer in an
attempt to spice up a mundane plot... when all that's needed is a better plot.

~~~
wmeredith
The problem with "better movies" is it's totally subjective-film is art. For
instance, I'd argue that the current quality of cinema has never been better.
It's a mature medium with several mature distribution channels and the
barriers to entry have never been lower. Some of the indie films that get
produced these days are incredible. And the spectacle offered by blockbusters
is truly breathtaking. Sure, there's a lot of bad movies released on both ends
of the budget spectrum, but that has always been true.

The theater _experience_ on the other hand, is getting less and less appealing
as home audio/video tech continues to improve at a furious pace.

~~~
exabrial
Agree, it's always subjective; I didn't mean to imply that art is in any form
deterministic. The items I criticized are things a general audience groans
about movies both indie and blockbusters. I can think of a few recent examples
that were good and bad. For instance, the plot in "Valerian" was fairly well
done because there was a tension between the two main characters that we
wanted to see resolved, despite the plot jumping around a bit from scene to
scene. The plot in "Atomic Blonde" also jumped around, but there was no
cohesion overall and the sex and violence scenes that followed were a yawn-
inducing attempt to keep the viewer interested. I shut it off without
finishing it and I haven't wondered how the movie ended. I love spy movies,
and was hoping for another well-baked plot like "Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit".

To your last point, none of those movies I watched in a theater, I waited
until they were released to my online video service and I could watch from the
comfort of my couch.

Thinking a bit more, I had low hopes for "Valerian" and "Jack Ryan", and high
hopes for "Atomic Blonde", even though those turned out to be the opposite in
reality. To my original point, I think that what killed the theater experience
for me. I'm afraid to go spend $15 on a movie that _might_ suck. I'd rather
spend half that and be able to leave if it's terrible.

