
US committee votes $30,000 increase in minimum salary of H1B visa workers - randomname2
http://www.businesstoday.in/current/world/us-congressional-committee-h1b-visa-holders-minimum-salary-for-h1b-visa-holder/story/264157.html
======
trishume
Regardless of whether or not you think the bill is a good idea, I don't think
the opponents arguments against it quoted make sense.

As long as the new minimum still clears the market and all spaces are still
filled (I think they would be), all this bill does is replace the pool of H1-B
visas awarded with a higher-paying one.

The quote "It also could disrupt the marketplace, threaten thousands of US
jobs, and stifle US innovation" would only make sense if one would expect that
lower-paid workers on average contribute more to US innovation, and are less
likely to displace Americans. I would predict the opposite, or at least no
effect. One might hope that the people companies are willing to pay top dollar
for are the higher skilled ones that companies have trouble hiring enough of
in the US.

It's interesting that the bill is a half-measure in that it doesn't take the
idea to its logical conclusion and eliminate the lottery and sort applications
by salary and take the top N, but I imagine that would be politically
unpopular.

I think you could possibly argue against this bill perhaps for some kind of
fairness reasons, but I think the arguments quoted don't make sense.

~~~
sitkack
> eliminate the lottery and sort applications by salary and take the top N

This is _exactly_ what should happen.

~~~
conanbatt
Why?

~~~
wallace_f
Consider the Brain Drain argument that is used to explain why poorer countries
have a hard time catching and keeping up with already-developed countries.

It's the other side of that.

~~~
conanbatt
But someone that could provide enormous value in the future, might not qualify
today. It is also a harm in the terms of brain drain. There should be very
little doubt on the fact that any restriction will harm everyone in that
'ladder of skill'. It particularly harms those who would acquire those skills
later on and dont have them today.

------
bradleyjg
The headline and lede don't accurately portray proposed changes. You need to
go down a few paragraphs to find this:

" The bill prohibits H-1B dependent employers from replacing American workers
with H-1B employees, there are no longer any exceptions. It also lengthens the
no-layoff policy for H-1B dependent employers and their client companies for
as long an H-1B employee works at the company, which means they cannot layoff
equivalent US workers.

For H-1B dependent employers to be exempted from the requirement that US
workers be recruited first, the Protect and Grow American Jobs Act
dramatically increases the salary requirements for H-1B workers. "They must
pay the lower of USD 135,000 which is indexed for inflation or the average
wage for the occupation in the area of employment, but with a floor of USD
90,000," said a media release issued by the House Judiciary Committee."

This proposed changes would only apply to H1B dependent employers, which are
employers with 15% or more of their workforce on H1Bs. Furthermore, there
isn't currently and won't be if the proposed language becomes law, any minimum
salary for H1B visa workers. Instead the salary mentioned acts as a safe
harbor for H1B dependent employers to avoid certain steps they'd otherwise
have to take in order to file additional H1B employee petitions beyond the 15%
level.

------
justboxing
> move to harm Indian IT professionals

Title of the story linked-to is quite sensational.

I'm not a fan of the current administration at all, but as a former (Indian)
H1-B visa holder myself, I welcome this move. It's clearly aimed at the top 10
H1-B visa abusers, almost all Indian Companies - think Tata Consultancy
Services, Cognizant Technologies, Wipro, Tech Manhindra etc - who grossly
underpay the Indian software engineers and abuse H1-B visa program.

Now these crooks won't be able to file Labor Certificate applications with
very low prevailing wages, and I think this will help real startups and
software companies everywhere in the US, who can't find top engineers in US
for new technologies, hire people from Europe, Asia and other parts of the
world who are qualified, and not just from India.

Code-monkey Indians and the companies that try to bring them in on low wages
will automatically get filtered out.

~~~
codeonfire
Also should mention these companies are openly tolerated by the government for
their extreme racist hiring policy, violating every conceivable US law, hiring
upwards of 98% Indian race only in the United States. But it's alright because
it's just "engineers" not important people, right?

~~~
wallace_f
Racism is defined academically as 'privilege + power,' so if you say "I am an
Indian and will only hire Indians," that has historically been just fine. This
definition is interpreted as "you need to be White to be racist."

Diversity is mostly just defined as "not White," so majority Indian, Black,
etc. companies, are "diverse," they exist, and no one goes after them.

This is why you have those majority-xyz-race companies, but Apple's chief of
diversity was fired for saying Whites can also be diverse if they come from
diverse backgrounds.

~~~
thunfischbrot
If you are an employer such as Tech Mahindra or Tata and only considering
Indians for a job, do you not wield power?

~~~
wallace_f
Yes, of course.

That's why everyone should be treated as equals regardless of race, gender,
religion, etc.

This convoluted system of privilege is concerning. Consider a poor White born
into an abusive family, in a rural area, with no inheritance. This qualifies
as "privileged" under current dogma. They pretend like these kinds of people
don't exist.

It's more of a class war being disguised as a race war.

------
jorblumesea
This is a good thing for just about everyone except for Infosys and Cognizant
and the like. I really hate how close the H1B program comes to indentured
servitude, feels extremely unfair and imbalanced.

~~~
tankenmate
One bright spot for workers from Infosys et al that survive this change is
that now they can look forward to a 50% raise for their servitude. Compared to
most wages in India working for USD90k for a few years under onerous
conditions might be palatable (definitely much more so than USD60k).

Added that this bill closes the loopholes for replacing local US workers mean
that for a greater number of workers this is a much better situation.

~~~
nonamechicken
The Infosys H1Bs who will survive this change are already getting $70-75k.

~~~
tankenmate
Good point.

------
WalterBright
The mistake with this bill is it assumes that tech workers excluded from the
US will just disappear. They won't. They'll set up shop in other countries,
and those companies will compete with US companies. It will also encourage
larger US companies to set up dev offices in foreign countries.

One way or another, those workers will be competing with US workers
regardless.

~~~
thewarrior
I can see the other replies but you are entirely right . I work for one of the
big 4 and the overseas office where I am is growing rapidly . I hear one of
our peers is doing the same .

Of course they aren't making too much of a noise about it as they're smart.

These policies are already backfiring.

If that means companies discover that you don't have to be in California to do
tech that would be a good thing . Bring on the foolishness I say .

I would like to add that I'm not talking about this policy in particular but
the growing sentiment against even skilled immigration.

~~~
tedmiston
Why is being in California relevant to a minimum that applies across the whole
country?

------
uiri
This isn't a minimum in the salary of H1B workers. The current "minimum" is
$60k. It is perfectly possible to hire employees on an H1B under that limit,
you (as an employer) will simply be under more scrutiny.

It relates to H1Bs that are contracted out to other employers where those H1Bs
are at least 15% (slightly higher thresholds for employers with under 51
employees) of an employer's workforce. They are colloquially known as Body
Shops. The legislation as it stands allows the DoJ and DoL to
investigate/prosecute these employers unless the employee makes a certain
minimum salary OR has a masters degree. This is a good thing since it
specifically targets the abusers of the H1B program while leaving most
employers alone. The minimum salary will go up to $90k and the threshold will
go up from 15% to 20%.

~~~
tedmiston
Are you saying that having a master's degree _removes_ the minimum salary
requirement? That seems odd.

~~~
uiri
Yes, it does. It allows body shops to import tons of Indian-educated masters
degree holders at $40-50k a year and then bill them out to other companies at
much higher rates.

The proposed bill removes this too.

------
outside1234
This raises a pretty interesting idea: Why don't we cap the number of H1-B
slots at N and let companies bid for how much they would pay the employees
with the top N bids being accepted?

~~~
conanbatt
Why doesnt the us just not limit it at all, and stop spending money and
resources on playing a lottery game with people's lives.

~~~
sumedh
So do you want unlimited immigration?

~~~
Antrikshy
It's not unheard of. Instead of putting a hard limit and playing the random
number generator game with peoples' lives, maybe approve visas on a case-by-
case basis...?

~~~
sumedh
How many cases?

100, 10K, 100K, million?

~~~
conanbatt
7 billion if it they want to.

~~~
sumedh
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

~~~
conanbatt
You'll need to add more meat if you want me to take a bite.

~~~
sumedh
Why would I do that, I already know you are trolling

------
shadowtree
This, together with the proposed new tax laws for graduate students
([https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/opinion/house-tax-bill-
gr...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/opinion/house-tax-bill-graduate-
students.html)), will slowly erode the status of the US in tech and science.

Which is fine if you follow history and just accept the rise and fall of
empires.

There aren't enough CS grads in the US to fill the demand as education is so
crazy expensive. Foreigners have skewed the system since forever, see all the
1st generation founders.

The constant feed of well-educated foreigners to the US is coming to an end.
Someone else will collect that talent. Whoever that is will dominate. Tencent
passing FB in market value should be a big clue where we're heading.

~~~
pkaye
Only now we will start draining engineers worth atleast $90K from other
countries. In SV $90K can be considered a starting salary.

~~~
2_listerine_pls
They will be the same engineers.

------
virtuabhi
More news on this topic - Administration to wipe out work permits for H-1B
spouses [http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Trump-
administra...](http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Trump-
administration-has-plans-to-wipe-out-work-12366124.php)

~~~
conanbatt
This is terrible!

------
nmstoker
Despite the headline, this will benefit smarter Indian workers who are
currently undercut by the less skilled $60k ones

------
zjaffee
This is a good thing, but mostly because it will help those who went to school
in the united states, and struggled to win the H1B lottery during their time
under F1 yet are able to command salaries well over the new 90k minimum.

------
mlamat
Who said Trump doesn't deliver?

There never was a skill shortage. Only a pay shortage.

~~~
flatline
Deliver on a promise to curb foreign competition on American soil and forward
a protectionist agenda? I see this move as accomplishing the opposite of the
stated goal, or at least being a wash with respect to it. Not that I’m
complaining, but I’m sure even a despot would do some things we all nominally
agreed with. There can be little doubt that Trump has been slowed in
implementing his agenda by a lack of either familiarity or willingness to work
with the bureaucracy in Washington.

~~~
theWatcher37
If by “competition” you mean pseudo-moralist corporate agenda designed to
suppress wages for engineers and developers.

Wages have been FLAT vs rising inflation for ages, mostly due to labor over-
supply.

~~~
flatline
I only see an overall labor shortage in tech fields. I’ve never heard of even
mediocre developers having trouble finding work, except for a brief period in
the early 2000s. I think wage suppression is only contributed to in very small
part by the oft-exploited labor coming here from overseas on the H1-B and
similar programs. I see this as trying to make the program function more
according to its stated intention and bring in _skilled_ labor.

~~~
jrs95
It's the mediocre developers or developers in areas where the overwhelming
majority of the jobs are mediocre that are hurt by this. Generally speaking
they're not being replaced with better workers, they're being replaced with
cheaper foreign mediocre workers.

------
mrtksn
I wonder what would be the impact these artificially determined salaries.

I would have loved to see some de-regulation in the employment effectively
removing the reasons of foreign talent being lock in to a company, thus not
having a negotiation power which results in lower salaries.

In my opinion nationality based employment opportunity differences are no
different to race or gender based ones.

Don't get me wrong, I actually don't advocate global free movement of labour,
I just highly dislike artificial ways like salary caps or employer lock ins to
manage it.

------
blusterXY
The original headline is written by someone with an axe to grind, because this
change does not hurt Indian IT professionals at all. Restrictions on importing
low-cost labor will raise wages for workers in India. The restrictions will
also raise wages in the United States for obvious reasons as well.

~~~
olympus
Will it really? I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but I can also see an
argument that fewer Indian IT workers in the USA means that more IT workers
will stay in India and look for jobs. More job seekers could drive wages down,
even while the Indian companies are getting higher skilled workers.

~~~
noitsnot
There's a reason they flock over. Millions of engineers can't find jobs in
India. Less than 10 percent of graduates are employed because there are too
many schools and they pump out low-quality students. Combine this with the
fact that there is a very severe shortage of jobs.

------
hknecht
Restricts the use of H1B to target more competent - and sought after - talent.
It's a good move; import talent when it makes an impact

~~~
conanbatt
It always makes an impact. These are voluntary arrangements, both parties
think they win doing them, even though the processing costs are in the 10k's
of thousands!

------
keerthiko
Regarding the "stifles US innovation" \-- I see many people refuting this.
Having the salary cutoff be a hard requirement of the H1B visa most certainly
stifles innovation.

There isn't an effective visa that allows a tech innovator to bootstrap a
company in the US. I can get my company to ramen profitability with minimal
funding, but I cannot sponsor my own visa because my startup coffers can't
afford to pay a founder-coder $150,000 salary. If you don't have multiple
advanced degrees or a magical track record of successful companies or
something, you can't get an O1 visa. You have to waste a bunch of time and
money daisy-chaining educational visas and associated work authorization from
cheap community colleges until you get your company established. We all know
building a sustainable product and company is hard enough without arbitrary
obstacle courses to waste your time on.

Having experienced this first-hand, as a cofounder who had to leave the
country for 2 years and work remote until we had gained enough recognition and
a warchest to justify an O1 visa for me.

I'm not saying the solution is to ignore payscale for H1B's, but until there's
a more appropriate visa for an entrepreneur (which by definition has to have
simple initial requirements, low cost and reliable success, maybe with down-
the-line auditing for extensions), it would be certainly help innovation if
the H1-B weren't denied to all the international bootstrapped company
founders.

~~~
davidgh
Can I ask - what’s the motivation to locate yourself in the US while you
bootstrap your startup?

Is it that you need the US presence to be closer to customers or partners,
establish some type of perceived legitimacy, prepare yourself to bring on
investors in the US, or perhaps something else?

~~~
keerthiko
I have spent a third of my life here now, grew all my professional connections
(and closest friendships) here, understand the market spaces here better, and
also just like to live here. My company's product primarily targets the US
market and distance makes me lose context. My cofounders are American and live
here, and while we are remote friendly since we don't even have an office (I
mean I did it for two years), I want remote work to be an option, not forced
upon me. The bandwidth of in person co-working sessions and convenience of
time zones and meeting up with an hour's notice is obvious. But from a
personal perspective, that this is where I grew into a professional adult and
where I want to continue my career is more than enough reason.

------
comments_db
I've responded to similar articles in the past. I welcome this motion. Only
thing that bothers me is the fact why it was not enforced earlier. I'm a H1B
holder and I support this move.

------
checker659
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-
bill/170](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/170)

So now you can be a high school graduate but if you earn 135k or higher, you
are eligible for an H1B? Am I reading that right?

Also, would this affect (say) a postdoc virologist in Ohio trying to get an
H1B? Or is this just for programmers in Silicon Valley?

~~~
tryingagainbro
if you do the job...you do the job. Market decides

------
neokrish
As an Indian who had a very high paying job but lost out to the lottery and
had to return to India, I welcome this bill. As someone else in this thread
mentioned, this bill only gets half the way, they should remove the lottery
and pick from the pool sorted by salary. The current combination of limited
retraining of unemployed American labor pool and exploited workers by Indian
consulting firms is exacerbating the populism and rightly so. I’m not against
my fellow countrymen, I’m against the companies and the management that have
failed to balance their own activities and abused the system. Indian
government doesn’t want this to happen of course, as they’ll have a pool of
unemployed population within the country. This would’ve been fine if this pool
would’ve been uneducated, but an educated pool that can’t find jobs in the
market will focus its sights on the government and demand changes. All in all,
much needed change that unfortunately had to be delivered as a shock to the
system and at the hands of a mostly incompetent president.

------
ny2ko
From my reading I can't tell if this bill is solely limited to tech
applications. The usual qualm with this debate is that the H1-B usage extends
far beyond tech and while this increase wouldn't really matter for tech
workers, it will make a huge impact on other industries/people where 90k isn't
the norm as in tech

------
partycoder
If anything, the US was very indulging with companies like Infosys, that were
found deliberately cheating in their applications (e.g: submitting the same
applicant multiple times).

Then, some Infosys employees report that they do not receive the minimum H-1B
salary in practice, and that they're forced to give their tax return money
back to their employer. I do not know if these reports are true, but I think
they should be aggressively audited.

To that you need to add that the Infosys business culture, as reported by
their own employees, is not the kind of business culture you want to
assimilate.

Then, if there are more applicants than spots, naturally the US could rank
them and pick the best.

------
fencepost
I see some folks saying "IT workers don't have a problem finding jobs anyway,"
but it feels like at least once a week I see articles on ageism in tech come
through here.

If this actually makes it through and becomes law, I'm curious about the
possible impact on those older workers. Since in some cases it seems like
those older workers are back in the job hunt because of companies closing up
their in-house IT in favor of outsourced contracts, this seems like it might
be directly applicable at least there.

------
woopwoop
As long as H1-B Visa holders cannot change jobs once they get here, they will
be underpaid and overworked, and will create distortions in the American labor
market. I would say the obvious fix is to untether the H1-B from the Visa
holder's employer. Just let people bid for the H1-B's, and give the Visas out
to the highest bidders. Preferably many, many more than we give out currently.

~~~
acchow
> As long as H1-B Visa holders cannot change jobs once they get here, they
> will be underpaid and overworked

you can change jobs on an h1-b.

~~~
woopwoop
My impression was this was basically not true, that it is very difficult for
an H1-B Visa holder to leave their sponsoring employer. According to
Wikipedia, "If a foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the
sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change
of status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of
status and/or change of visa), or leave the United States."

~~~
pkaye
If they have a new job offer, it is not difficult to change. I've known quite
a few people who interviewed one week and just moved to the new job. Their
employer has legal staff to take care of the paperwork.

------
smb06
I graduated from Purdue in Indiana and I'm on an H1B visa. A lot of
international students graduating from U.S. universities in the Midwest get
jobs in those markets instead of Bay Area/NYC. This basically means no jobs
for graduating international students in places like Indiana.

------
dennisgorelik
It would be better to remove H1b quota, but considering that US voters in
aggregate do not want that, replacing lower-paid H1b workers with higher-paid
H1b workers is the logical choice. At least it may help to eliminate H1b
lottery and make H1b processing more predictable.

------
p1oauth1p
This move more or less will increase outsourcing or offshore dev centers. And
only real high and good quality work is done in US. Long term this may impact
US when offshore dev centers slowly catch up.

------
xchaotic
The weird part is that even with higher salary, I wouldn't recommend people to
go on h1b. Job flexibility, healthcare, work/life balance all sacrificed in
the name of workin in America!

~~~
Antrikshy
This is a blanket statement. You seem to have a very distorted view of the
situation. Working on H-1B does not equate any of this automatically.

------
conanbatt
A simple rule change that will appease the nationalistic desires of software
engineers while reducing the harm to strong lobby big-shot companies like
facebook/google/amazon.

------
baybal2
I was thinking about taking a job in US many many many times, but I was always
deterred by the prospective of becoming a US taxpayer for life and fear of
overzealous tax enforcement

~~~
pkaye
That concern is really only for US citizens.

~~~
baybal2
IRS has a history of going after permanent residents, and even people who came
to US for seasonal work

~~~
pkaye
But obviously if you came to work in the US, you are subject to their taxes.
But and once they leave and all taxes are resolved, they should not be subject
to it any further.

~~~
baybal2
That is obvious, the thing is that in America a "permanent resident" and
"permanent resident for tax purposes" are two different things, and IRS does
bestow the second status quite liberally, and once you are deemed a tax
resident, it is hard to get rid of that status even long after you left the
coutry.

------
yazaddaruvala
I am Canadian and I've worked in tech in the USA for the last 5 years.

I wish they made getting an H1B even harder to get.

~~~
znpy
Can you elaborate on that?

~~~
jpollock
Canadians can enter and work on a TN visa, which has similar requirements to
an H1-B. However, the number of visas granted is unlimited. They are renewed
every time you cross the border, and can be rejected for any reason. They're
very temporary and you end up feeling worried crossing the border.

It explicitly does not allow a path to citizenship, so you have to transfer to
an H1-B to get a green card. If your intent is to attempt to get a green card,
you are in direct violation of a TN visa and can be deported.

Unlike those jammy Australian bastards (they get a visa that looks like an L1!
So jealous), spouses cannot work on the TD (visa for partners/dependents of TN
holders). This means your partner cannot work if you're on a TN until you
first transfer to a H1-B and then transfer again to a green card. For a
Canadian, the process is probably 2-3 years to get an H1B, and then another 2
years to get the green card. Reducing the competition for an H1-B will reduce
the length of time spent in the first step of this process.

Indians and Chinese people have it much, much worse. The length of time after
their green card approval to when they are granted one is quite literally
measured in decades.

The inability for spouses to work causes a lot of stress on relationships.
Spouses get depressed, angry and feel a complete loss of independence. They no
longer have a career nor their "own" money.

~~~
thriftwy
> spouses cannot work on the TD

If they're canadian, why don't they just get their own TN?

~~~
jpollock
Well, my partner's not Canadian, so they can't get a TN. This problem would
also affect Canadian partners without university degrees, a good moderate
indicator of TN eligibility.

However, the ability for spouses to work also affects all H1-B holders, and
they're a much, much larger group for a much longer period of time.

------
dgudkov
This may boost immigration to Canada which doesn't have an equivalent
threshold.

------
tryingagainbro
Brilliant! If you _really_ need foreign workers because you can't find them in
USA, they must so good, so special and deserving way more than $60k.

~~~
conanbatt
Yes, Brilliant. Take a pool of talent that is available, and make up rules on
how to limit it. What a sophisticated thought it is to find novel and
different ways to hurt yourself.

~~~
tryingagainbro
Oh yeah, let's bring every programmer from India /China in USA at $30k a year
so companies pay less US programmers and fire 30+ year old ones.

Bring in the best only, and $90k is a good salary requirement

~~~
conanbatt
Just to scale your point: do you advocate for, for example, never importing
iphones? That they should be made in the U.S?

Because making the iPhones abroad takes jobs from americans and lowers their
wages. You wouldnt want 30k a year chinese people taking jobs from Americans
would you.

~~~
tryingagainbro
iPhone costs, say $800 on average. How much of it is in assembling it ....?
USA can and should tax the rest.

------
zxcvvcxz
The one thing Silicon Valley loves about Trump ;)

~~~
GhostVII
Why would people in Silicon Valley care about this change? Pretty much every
software developer in SV makes over 90k.

~~~
bonzini
Exactly. Because they make over 90k, they might now have a chance to hire
skilled foreigners under H1B for the same wage.

Instead, the consultancy companies would have to raise their wages by 30k if
they wanted to keep on submitting tens of thousands of H1B applications.

------
0xbear
Set the minimum to 100k at least. Help US grads get started in the field.

------
hourislate
I have seen companies in DFW hire what seems like 1000's of H1B's and offer to
work on their Green cards. These aren't highly skilled jobs, these are jobs
that would typically pay more than the 50k that companies are using H1B's so
they can pay less. The New Toyota HQ in Plano has more Indians and H1B's than
US employees from what I heard. There are many more like them that I won't
mention.

India is exporting it's poverty all over the world and taking advantage of the
US.

~~~
sctb
You can please just leave out the last line, which is uncivil and violates the
guidelines.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
hourislate
I don't feel like I violated any guidelines. I just basically spoke the truth
which might be hard for some to accept.

We can't all just close our eyes and let them keep coming here and taking jobs
that pay 30%-40% of what a fellow US employee gets payed.

Just look at Sabre Systems, Toyota, etc in the DFW area. There are more Indian
employees now on H1B visa's than there are American employees. It's in the
1000's and I'm not kidding all because they can work them like dogs and
threaten to fire them at any moment and pay the what a office admin would
earn.

How does this benefit the USA other than decreasing labor costs for
corporations at the expense of American jobs.

I would like to scrap the whole H1B program all together, it would only be
good for American Employees.

