
F.D.A. Plans to Seek a Ban on Menthol Cigarettes - chablent
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/health/fda-menthol-cigarettes-ban.html
======
docbrown
For those of us without a NYT account, one part I found interesting from the
WSJ report on the topic was their carefulness regarding pulling the trigger
prematurely. While the FDA is trying to decrease the attractiveness of
menthol, they’re strategically playing a sympathetic long term game with
smokers.

As they and everyone knows, quiting smoking is a difficult task and suddenly
prohibiting many peoples go-to fix would be cruel and possibly cause more harm
than good.

>FDA officials—who want to curb use among youth while still encouraging adult
cigarette smokers to switch to less harmful products like e-cigarettes—decided
not to restrict sales of mint and menthol e-cigarettes because they didn’t
want to create a situation in which cigarettes were more attractive to smokers
who prefer menthol, senior agency officials said. [1]

[1]: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-to-propose-ban-of-
menthol-c...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-to-propose-ban-of-menthol-
cigarettes-1541795941)

~~~
udp
Nothing strategic there. It would be bizarre and unprecedented to ban _any_
e-cigarette flavour. There are thousands, and there’s nothing special about
menthol.

~~~
dpark
Nothing unprecedented about it. Most traditional cigarette flavors _are_
banned, since 2009.

------
kodablah
This is scarily prohibitionist. This is not a health-related choice, only an
enjoyment preference one. Whether you find the war on smoking justified or
not, outright banning of flavored tobacco this way has parallels in other
illegalization approaches. And when you grow your own tobacco and flavor it?
Criminal.

On a general note, I find it upsetting how many people cheer these things on
due to misplaced righteousness. You can disagree with smoking and even
recognize its societal harms that affect you without supporting making it
illegal. If only the human lifecycle were twice as long, we'd have many
remembering political victories built on prohibition platforms followed by
state after state banning breweries on the way to the 18th amendment.

~~~
HarryHirsch
It's absolutely health-related. Menthol is a mild anaesthetic (remember
menthol sports cream?) and permits the inexperienced smoker to inhale fully.
Same with the eugenol in kretek cigarettes.

~~~
WillPostForFood
Same with sugar in alcoholic beverages. Or salt on red meat.

~~~
madaxe_again
You jest, but here in the UK, where menthols were banned several years ago, we
tax sugar in beverages
([https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124)),
and food producers are under pressure to cut salt and sugar from their
products ([https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salt-reduction-
ta...](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salt-reduction-targets-
for-2017)).

I understand the rationale behind this prohibitionist, paternalistic approach
(maintain a healthy work/consumption force, reduce burden on socialised
healthcare, improve GDP), but the additional cost to the economy is already
built in to these goods - smoke tax (it’s not just tobacco, it’s anything you
could burn and inhale) in the uk more than covers the cost of smoking related
illness.

~~~
cyphar
The sugar tax has already resulted in many different beverage companies to
reduce the amount of sugar in their drinks in the UK. Personally I think
stopping government corn subsidies (that are used to make a dirt cheap sugar
substitute in the form of high fructose corn syrup) would be a much better way
of doing it, but obesity is such a severe issue that we need to do something
about it.

~~~
udp
It’s actually really annoying. I hardly ever drink sugary drinks, but
sometimes on a long drive I’d get one specifically for the sugar content (sans
caffeine and taurine). Now diet versions of everything seem to be default.

~~~
timthorn
Also, whilst I understand many/most people can't taste the difference, the
swap to using sweeteners has had the same level of disgust to my taste as
stirring in a teaspoon of salt into almost every soft drink.

~~~
detritus
I'd actually prefer salt in my soft drink, making it a little isotonic!

I literally only have Coca-Cola for an occasional treat these days - My
Beloved Irn-Bru, 7up & San Pellegrino have all been adulterated with awful-
tasting artificial sweeteners and are simply unenjoyable for me now.

It's a weird future I find myself in, where I will never drink any of these
things again, punished because of some third party entity's paternalism where
other third parties are concerned (I'm not personally fat nor enjoy a diet
that would ever make me so).

------
bbarn
As a 20 year smoker who's only been free for about 5 years, ban all of forms
of nicotine for sale. For about a week or 2 people will freak out and try to
find ways around it and then everyone will realize that it's not that hard.
The reason smokers perpetually have problems quitting is other smokers are
constantly around and it's ultra available. Sure, there's a few out there who
will protest and scream about their right to kill themselves, but we don't
need to allow companies to profit from selling addictive poison that has ZERO
up side. At least alcohol is fun (for most people) to use. Cigarettes taste
like trash, you have to force yourself to get addicted to them, they smell,
and they kill. The only reason we won't outright ban them has nothing to do
with liberty or freedoms, it's purely because the industry is incredibly
profitable, and that's how our laws actually get made.

~~~
esaym
> from selling addictive poison that has ZERO up side.

I can't remember where, but I saw a study that showed banning cigarettes would
only make healthcare costs go up as people would me living much longer
lives....

~~~
hannasanarion
And? So what? Are we out of bricks to build hospitals with?

More non-dead people also means more workers, more taxes revenue, more
consumption, more growth.

------
mcthro
I understand that menthol cigarettes are more attractive because they make
smoking more pleasant. I also understand they can be more dangerous, because
part of being more pleasant is inhaling being more comfortable[0], so one
might take bigger drags and/or hold them longer.

As someone trying to quit (menthols particularly), I can see this move helping
some (and I also see it incredibly frustrating for anyone not looking to quit,
though they should be!). Part of my difficulty in quitting is how widely
available smokes are - in my day to day life, they're only ever 5 minutes
away, and that ease of access is a huge barrier in staying smoke-free. I've
tried the non-menthols in my brand and I can't stand them. Banning menthols
solves the availability problem (for me), and while I disagree with it
ideologically, it's hard to argue with it practicality.

[0] [https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/8xdx7k/are-menthol-
ciga...](https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/8xdx7k/are-menthol-cigarettes-
worse)

~~~
provolone
Which is more practical? Tackling your lack of self discipline and perhaps
growing as a person, or appealing for the government to punish the sellers of
the product you enjoy?

~~~
wild_preference
What kind of cost does society bear because of smoking?

Since we share finite resources like insurance pools and the medical system,
there's a case for society to restrict the actions of others.

~~~
true_religion
By and large, smokers die faster than non smokers, and at an earlier age. This
saves costs in health care, pension funds, and social security.

There is a lot of downside to smoking, but the shared burden is not it.

~~~
DanBC
Smokers take more sick leave and they live for a long time with disability
before they die.

------
donatj
When they come for my flavored pipe tobacco I am going to be so upset.

At the rate things are going, it’s only a matter of time.

No good do-gooders on a rampage to take away everything enjoyable in life.

------
carbocation
Good.

Oh, sorry; I’m just a doctor. Maybe I should stay in my lane?

~~~
tptacek
Unusually salty for you! :)

~~~
carbocation
So many of my patients were harmed by smoking that I guess this one feels
personal!

------
adrr
Maybe let this decision fall to the states. I also don't like that Marijuana
is banned at the federal level.

------
KozmoNau7
Given the free choice, some people will drink, eat, smoke and otherwise drug
themselves into oblivion. We can't solve this issue by simply banning the
problematic substances, prohibition and other bans have shown this.

Consumption taxes are also implemented in many countries, but these have
issues as well. Namely in regards to lobbying and how the taxes are chosen,
and how they disproportionately affect low-income segments.

Personally I am torn on this subject. I highly appreciate the public smoking
ban that has been implemented in restaurants, bars and other public venues, as
well as on public transit and related facilities. I do respect smoking as a
personal choice, just as I expect teetotalers to respect that I enjoy the
consumption of alcohol, or vegetarians/vegans to respect that I enjoy
consuming foods with meat in them. All of these have proven generally negative
health effects, but I choose to partake in some of them, as an informed
choice.

I also recognize that all of these activities have some negative effect on the
world and society, in one way or another, yet it would be counterproductive to
ban them outright.

What I don't like about smoking in particular is the stench and effects of
passive smoking, and especially not being able to escape it. At least the
public smoking ban did alleviate this, which certainly can be spun as a net
societal gain.

------
jayalpha
Banned in Germany already. A former German chancellor has a solution for you:

[https://www.thefix.com/content/former-german-chancellor-
hoar...](https://www.thefix.com/content/former-german-chancellor-hoards-
menthol-cigarettes91894?amp)

~~~
black-tea
It's banned in the EU, not just Germany. In fact, I'm surprised Germany
doesn't have an exemption like it does with many other EU smoking laws.
Germany is way behind with smoking. Smoking is cool in Germany. Smoking bars
exist. Cigarette vending machines exist on every street corner in many parts
of the country (and yes I mean every corner, meaning in suburbs, not just in
town centres).

------
bostik
Planet Money did an episode (#842) where one item was on flavoured tobacco
products. A particular law targeting tobacco products _expressly exempts_
menthol cigarettes. The episode pointed out that this was a result of intense
industry lobbying, who were facing competition from non-US producers, mostly
supplying products flavoured with all kinds of other things.

And yes, menthol == mint.

------
millzlane
Get em hooked then when they become dependent you take it away.

It's interesting they chose flavored cigarettes and not flavored alcohol. The
attack specifically on menthol is meant to target the major users of the
product. Its not about the kids. And its not about righting some wrong by
cigarettes advertisers. This is meant to target the people who use the
product.

~~~
freedomben
I tend to agree. This strikes me as incredibly and clearly racist as well.
They openly acknowledge which community this will target. It's astounding that
a white senator (and mostly white FDA I would assume) imposing his/their will
on a group of people primarily of color is perfectly acceptable to people.

~~~
ada1981
Yeah I didn’t see anything in the article talking about how menthol is any
more dangerous than regular smokes - are they?

~~~
raquo
[https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/8xdx7k/are-menthol-
ciga...](https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/8xdx7k/are-menthol-cigarettes-
worse)

They are just as bad as regular cigarettes, possibly worse, and yet people
perceive them as less bad, causing overconsumption.

~~~
eof
I don't see any evidence that people perceive them to be less bad. That
article fakes a reference to that claim but it goes to a link that is
irrelevant to the claim.

I have known many menthol smokers and have spent most of my life around
smokers. I have literally never once heard the opinion menthol was somehow
safer. In fact, I have often heard the opposite; with claims that the menthols
have "fiber glass" in them.

~~~
raquo
[https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/20/Suppl_2/ii20](https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/20/Suppl_2/ii20)

------
snarfy
> The products, which include such flavors as chicken-and-waffles and mango,
> would be mainly relegated to sales online, at sites where the agency hopes
> to impose strict age verification to ensure that minors could not buy them.

"Strict age verification with online sales". I would very much like to see how
this is supposed to work.

~~~
stan_rogers
In Canada, that means signature (and ID if you appear under 30) on delivery.
So far in the US, it's meant photo ID verification on placing an order if an
algorithm decides your CC isn't doing what it would normally do.

------
drngdds
I think they just make it illegal to sell any tobacco.* The black market would
not be an issue because smokers can get the same drug from e-cigarettes, which
are almost certainly much safer.

*Possession would still be legal, because punishing people for using drugs is dumb.

~~~
leetcrew
i wouldn't be too sure; the people who support this measure seem to overlap
with the people who also want to ban flavored ejuices.

in my view, this is an inevitable consequence of the shift towards socialized
medicine. when every human body is a financial liability for the government,
you can expect it to get a lot more interested in how you treat your body.
good alignment of incentives for public health, but terrible for individual
liberty.

------
ebullientocelot
All hail the nanny-state.

------
ada1981
No paywall:

[https://outline.com/Ka6xJx](https://outline.com/Ka6xJx)

------
GatorD42
Reasoning backwards, if menthol cigarettes were illegal, would anyone support
making them legal? I’m libertarian-ish esp with respect to drugs but I think
this makes sense. At some point this harm reduction strategies will go too far
but it hasn’t reached that point for me yet.

~~~
leetcrew
people don't tend to think harm reduction strategies have gone too far until
the government starts targeting _their_ vices.

i don't smoke anymore, but it still makes me very uncomfortable to see the
government take another step forward in regulating how people treat their own
bodies. the government rarely takes a step back.

------
claydavisss
Menthol cigarettes are also favored overwhelmingly by African Americans...as
pointed out in the SF debate on menthol cigarettes, this is another bit of
astounding racism masquerading as benevolence

