
A woman rants about man bashy stuff written by “women in tech” - Mz
http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-woman-rants-about-man-bashy-stuff.html
======
kbart
Great post, all this exaggerate promotion of feminism only alienates men and
makes them actively avoid women as colleagues. You may never know now, if
she's one of those overzealous "women's right defenders" that will sue you for
accidentally touching her, glancing at inappropriate body parts for a split of
a second or overheard "sexist" joke. Actually, not even suit is required --
blog post is enough to ruin your career[0]. Such aggressive promotion of
feminism (in today's terms) only makes the gap between genders even deeper --
the exact opposite of this movement's stated goal. No wonder that really
clever women start to understand such aggressive confrontation only worsens
the situation and form a counter-movement[1].

0\. [http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-
spiraled...](http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spiraled-way-
out-of-control/) 1\.
[http://womenformen.org/mission/](http://womenformen.org/mission/)

~~~
LifeQuestioner
As a women in tech, I very much agree with you.

However, i've never had sexual harassment in work, but I do have it in public
a few times a year so I do know how it feels.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference but i've been coding every week from the
age of 13 (i'm 23 now). I've genuinely have next to always never felt anything
but respect from my Male/Female colleagues. I'm a bit of a tom-boy though :).

On the rare occasion I ever felt I was not being taken seriously, I worked
twice as hard to show and prove to them why I should be. Okay, fair enough, I
shouldn't have to do that but I don't really care, it is what it is, I like
the challenge and i'd rather provide evidence through my produced work than
argue for ages about crap that won't get me anywhere.

Or complain and blame others. My life is in my control.

And it's not just being female that means I have to do that - people from
different ethnic origins will do, people who have disabilities will do to
prove their worth. It's just life.

~~~
kbart
I'm only talking from my personal experience, but IT is one of the most
welcoming field for women as it's mostly skill and abilities that matters.
Those few women I've encountered at the university or professional career were
really respected by their male peers, and I've never heard any single sexist
negative remark (not to mention harassment attempts) during these years. Of
course, there are a$$holes and jerks everywhere - IT is not an exception - but
blaming a whole group (namely white males) based on few anecdotal evidences is
just another stereotyping. I live/work in Europe, so maybe situation is
different on the other side of a pond, I don't know. IMHO, the reason there
are few women in tech is fairly simple -- most girls don't like hard science
and I don't believe it has something to do with stereotypes or cultural
influences, but that's another topic.

 _And it 's not just being female that means I have to do that - people from
different ethnic origins will do, people who have disabilities will do to
prove their worth._

As a white male, I'd argue that _everyone_ (at least those, who are on their
own) has to prove their worth, especially in a junior position. Taking into
account your young age, I guess you fit in this category as well.

P.S. it's always nice to see a girl interested in coding, good luck and may
your skills guide your career, not complaints and threats!

~~~
LifeQuestioner
Aye :).

I'm not a Junior btw (at 15 I was developing websites, optimising java
bytecode using Bcel and writing AI - I don't mean this as bragging, I was
working with way more intelligent people than I). I didn't learn much in
university in respect to programming because of that...

However, that may explain something there - people will probably look at my
age and assume i'm a Junior =). A natural assumption really.

The difference in social conditioning for girls is quite an interesting topic
=) (in random comment to the lack in hard-science).

~~~
sridca
> The difference in social conditioning for girls is quite an interesting
> topic =)

It would be interesting to hear self-aware women speak about on this topic.
From what I understand, generally speaking girls for whatever reason prefer
(be they via social conditioning or instinctual preference or a combination of
both) to play with dolls, as opposed to boys who play with trucks ... as the
former, playing with dolls, is indicative of early development of social
relationships (people manipulation, to put crudely) while the later, playing
with trucks, is indicative of early development of object manipulation ... and
this stems from the fact that men and women evolved to fulfill different
instinctual roles (sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive).

~~~
LifeQuestioner
I'm a female who hated playing with dolls - they were boring. I didn't play
with trucks or other toys either. I preferred hands on or sports stuff - bike
riding, tree climbing, football, computer gaming(but not television which I
could never stand). I required activities which were more mentally
stimulating, otherwise my behaviour became destructive.

I'm quite lucky though as I was encouraged to do the things I was enjoyed - my
female cousins were not. When their brothers went bike riding, she was told
she had to stay home and make cakes. When she asked for gifts for Christmas
she didn't get them because they were not socially acceptable for females, so
she got dolls.

So, how many choose them because they genuinely like them? And how many choose
them because it's enforced and they think it's the social thing to do? How
many disney films are all about finding one true love to take care of you?

------
bonobo3000
Great post. I would just like to say that as an immigrant to the US, i see
this tendency to turn every debate into "with us or against us" is much more
prominent in the media here. I believe that most people across the world are
reasonable enough to see the vast "grey areas" you mentioned between any two
poles, but when we just read about an issue in passing, we tend to accept what
we read so a media pushing dumb controversial articles can create this
tendency.

The renewed push for accepting women in the workplace is simply one instance
where a (reasonable) position has been chosen (women should have all the same
opportunities as men in the workplace), but anyone who speaks against this
position (even if just to improve it, or learn more) is labeled a old-
fashioned,bigoted, and much worse.

The answer is to take a position without instantly shaming anyone who
disagrees. So we can have an open discussion. The way controversial issues are
treated here reminds me of medieval times - if you don't believe, you will be
"excommunicated" from society. Debates aren't football games where you watch
and cheer for your team to win. Right now, everyone is cheering for the womens
side. Dont get me wrong, I am too, but that doesn't mean the other side is
wrong/evil.

------
7Figures2Commas
> I wish women would make more of an effort to understand why men do what they
> do. Here is my general take on it...

From the author's referenced post[1]:

> My experience is that men are either not very willing to talk to me one-on-
> one or, if they are, talking shop is the last thing they had in mind. They
> are looking for romance, not looking to help me professionally. When I say
> this to other women, they generally express immediate agreement. Men often
> deny it, criticize it or just stop talking when I say such things.

Most people are _not_ attracted to most people. What this means is that most
of the people you are attracted to won't find you attractive, and most of the
people who are attracted to you are not going to be attractive to you.

Given this simple fact, believing that most of your interactions with members
of the opposite sex are motivated by romantic interest is simply not
realistic, no matter how handsome/beautiful or charming you are.

Maybe the tech industry (or a particular subset of the tech industry) is
completely dysfunctional, but in my experience, _most_ adult women and men are
capable of interacting professionally without believing that all these
interactions are somehow romantic in nature or fearing that they will be
interpreted as such.

[1] [http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-
zon...](http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zone.html)

~~~
Mz
A man does not need to be attracted to me to be worried that close
collaboration -- working late together, having dinner together, etc -- will
lead to other people wondering if there is an affair. Bonus points: My
experience has been that men who aren't attracted react really negatively to
me giving off signals that I am interested. So men who are not hoping to sleep
with me can have powerful reasons to just not want to work closely with me in
the kind of manner that could dramatically further my professional goals.

(I am the author, in case that is not obvious.)

~~~
AnimalMuppet
So I'm a man, and I'm married, and I'm committed to my marriage. I'm not just
worried about my reputation; my marriage is a more important issue.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I'm immune to temptation. So if I'm having to
work closely with you, and you're interested in me, _and I also find you
attractive,_ I'm going to take steps to distance myself from you. That may
take the form of not working late with you. It may even take the form of
asking to be assigned to a different team than you. (Note well: It's not OK
for me to try to get you fired, or damage your career. It's not even OK for me
to ask that _you_ get reassigned.)

If you want to blame me for that, saying that it's my weakness that is the
problem, I can agree with you. But I'm not trying to discriminate against you,
or put a glass ceiling on your career, or anything like that. I just know that
I can be tempted, and if I give in, it will really mess up my life.

Unfortunately, that can still leave you blocked from your professional goals.
I don't know how to fix this.

~~~
7Figures2Commas
1\. How many years have you been working?

2\. How many times in your career have you found yourself working closely with
a woman who you found attractive and who made it clear she was interested in
you?

3\. In these situations, how many times were you the woman's superior, equal
or direct report?

I think answers to the above would be more beneficial to this discussion than
the admission that you could theoretically be tempted by a co-worker to cheat
on your wife.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
1\. 30

2\. Once. I found her attractive, and I think she was at least willing to
become interested in me. (Of course, I'm a clueless male geek, so I easily
could have been mistaken.)

3\. Her equal.

So, yeah, it hasn't happened to me very much. But the time it did, I did what
I felt I had to to make sure that nothing happened. ( _What_ did I do? I sent
one message that I wasn't going to play, and I asked a male co-worker that I
trusted to hold me accountable for what I did _and thought_ about her. It was
enough.)

~~~
7Figures2Commas
Your response sort of demonstrates the point I made above about most people
not being attracted to most people.

In a career of 30 years, you found yourself working closely with a total of
_one_ woman who you were attracted to and who you thought _might_ be "willing
to become interested" in you. This co-worker was your equal, and you dealt
with your feelings in what seems like a mature manner that caused no
professional harm to you or her.

Where's the problem that needs solving?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> ... and you dealt with your feelings in what seems like a mature manner that
> caused no professional harm to you or her.

Thank you.

> Where's the problem that needs solving?

I was responding to Mz's post about how men _who were not attracted to her_
reacted negatively to her. My point was that men _who are attracted_ can be
just as difficult.

It's fine if you don't see the problem based on my personal situation. In
fact, I prefer it that way...

------
LifeQuestioner
I can see a response article "Women rants about women ranting about women in
tech. Look at that women who has nothing better to do. I have to spend 16
hours a day just to survive and shes just complaining about complaining".

Where does it end?

"From what I have experienced, it looks to me like an awful lot of men do not
want to engage women professionally for fear that it will lead to scandal of
some sort" \- any comments from guys on this? Are you ever hesitant to engage
out of fear of a scandal?

~~~
throwaway3232
Generally, I like to give all people benefit of the doubt irrespective of
gender identity. That said, it doesn't take many interactions with individuals
to get an idea of why kind of things they care about and are vocal about.
People who are actively like the person referenced in the blog post become
their own self-fulfilling prophecy and fail to see how their
whining/complaining contributes to them not progressing in their career by
isolating them from their colleagues. I work with amazing people that span the
gender spectrum. Most are heterosexual males. Regardless of where a colleague
lies on the identity spectrum, I respect and work with them all. I did however
have a coworker on a previous team that frequently interpreted many
interactions and events through victim-colored glasses. On occasion we would
get in debates, especially if bad statistics were presented (I'm easily nerd-
sniped by bad stats, [https://xkcd.com/356/](https://xkcd.com/356/)),
especially the base rate fallacy. It got a tad uncivil at times because my
retorts and corrections to the bad state were unwelcome. Another behavior of
their's that caused discomfort for me and others, were frequent unambiguously
negative comments stereotyping a gender identity, gender orientation and race
that is generally perceived as have greater privileges. Despite the occasional
unpleasant interaction, I made sure to provide mentorship to this colleague
when appropriate.

I eventually switched teams for a far more interesting opportunity. Avoiding
this colleague with a victim mentality was not at all a motivating factor for
my move, but I can't say that it wasn't a huge relief to no longer work with
this person directly. The entire time we worked together, I assumed that it
was possible that I may eventually end up at the wrong end of one of those
unpleasant interaction that would end up biting me in the ass because I have
the privilege of being assumed to be the transgressor in such situations due
to my perceived gender identity and perceived race (fwiw, I'm a mixed race
pomosexual, but people don't know that unless I tell them).

I actively/consciously make sure not to single out people based on their
identity, but observed behavior is another manner entirely. Once someone outs
themselves as a wearer of victim-colored glasses, I get especially leery. I
recognize however that most people aren't going to give the benefit of the
doubt and identify this nuance, so I can see how many colleagues would avoid
working with those whose identity correlates statistically with wearing
victim-colored glasses. The threat of scandal with those wearing victim
colored glasses begets avoidant behavior in those who perceived identity puts
them in the group most likely to be the loser in the event of any ambiguous
scandal.

Overall I consider victimhood culture to be a super toxic approach that
fosters isolation.

[http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-
rise...](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-rise-of-
victimhood-culture/404794/)

~~~
LifeQuestioner
Yeah the Victim mentality is something that seems really strong with the blogs
kind of posters. Thanks for your comments, enjoyed reading them!

------
melted
Yup. As a white heterosexual male with a lot to lose, I avoid any kind of
controversy involving women at all costs. Does this harm collaboration? You
bet! But I don't feel safe otherwise.

~~~
MollyR
I've noticed Asian and Indian men following this as well. I've overheard them
talking about the backlash Nadella got as part of their reasoning.

~~~
melted
Seems like a good idea for all men, regardless of race, ethnicity, or minority
status. When your reputation can be irretrievably destroyed based on nothing
but hearsay and someone's perceptions and preconceived notions, this course of
action is the only one that's rational.

------
timrpeterson
Interesting that this post received no comments. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Sad
really.

~~~
J_Darnley
1 - 25 minutes isn't very long to wait for comments but now that I look again
I guess you mean on the post there. Though by my reckoning it hasn't been up
12 hours.

2 - Some people are psychotic so I'm not surprised people stay silent.

~~~
jsnathan
Who is psychotic here?

~~~
J_Darnley
Just about everyone who voluntarily enters the discussion, myself included.

------
gozo
I don't really see it. Yes, affluent people are the one that can afford to
"whine". That's because you need a certain level of independence and education
to be able to represent a position. Women have been "nice" throughout history.
No one cared. Now they are outperforming men and the only reason we are
talking about "sexism in tech" is because women are doing so well in many
other fields.

The whole premise of the post seem to be that women should know their place. A
woman overreacting over being felt up is "whining", while men have been
punching people in face over petty things for decade. Some men hesitate to
work with women. So? Women didn't have it easy in the past. Now men share the
world with women and those that can't work with them won't have many
opportunities.

~~~
aianus
> Now they are outperforming men and the only reason we are talking about
> "sexism in tech" is because women are doing so well in many other fields.

Name one where women are outperforming men at the top. I'm genuinely curious.

~~~
gozo
What makes you think that metric is even relevant? Since women haven't been
competing with men on equal terms for long you have to look at fields and
metrics were being young isn't a disadvantage. Taylor Swift had the most
selling albums of 2014, Jennifer Lawrence was the top paid actor/actress under
30 the same year. Also many metrics relating to education, which if you really
are curious can find yourself. Of course there will probably never be an
outright dominance of women at the top of any field simply because of
competition. But things are definitely going to change.

