
As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw - wallflower
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/technology/new-zealand-tech-industry.html
======
humanrebar
> For all sorts of reasons, New Zealand suddenly makes sense. The cost of
> living is less than in San Francisco. Commuting is less wearying. And
> American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of
> the world.

For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off
Facebook.

You especially don't have to go to New Zealand to find a cheaper, commuter-
friendly place to work.

Nothing against New Zealand. I'm sure it's a great place to live. The writing
in the article is just sloppy.

~~~
Apocryphon
When I think of NZ, I imagine South Pacific beaches, lush forests of emu and
kiwi and other exotic animals, and the landscape of the Lord of the Rings film
trilogy.

What natural beauty does Tulsa have?

~~~
boznz
If you end up in Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch you could be just in
another big city anywhere in the world, you may be within an hour or twos
drive of some of the above descriptors but you wont be looking out of your
home or office window at them unless you can drop a million dollars on a
house. Get real guys.

~~~
xxgreg
Here's a photo of Wellington I took while commuting to work on my mountain
bike. Trail head is 2mins from my office...

[https://goo.gl/photos/9AQWmraCss6U9uVp7](https://goo.gl/photos/9AQWmraCss6U9uVp7)

If you're in into biking, or windsurfing Wellington is definitely a stunning
place to live.

[edit] Also since everybody is talking about emus, this trail is actually
called barking emu. But it is misnamed - since it's actually an Ostrich in the
paddock up there.

~~~
incompatible
Wouldn't the commute home be a bit tough on a bike?

~~~
0xADEADBEE
Yes. What GP is omitting is that Wellington winters are akin to England but
with a great deal more wind. In the summer, that commute is likely wonderful,
but for four months of the year, it isn't.

~~~
incompatible
I was thinking of a big hill climb, but obviously the wind would be a big
issue too, even in summer.

------
TheAlchemist
That's interesting !

I'm intending to make a move with my family in near future, and we actually
went to visit the northern island for 15 days last month. The country is
really beautiful, and there are not a lot of people around, so you can't help
but feel blessed by the surrounding nature. The people are great, probably the
nicest I've ever seen (as a whole).

I've noted some cons though (not blocking for us thankfully):

\- housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty
of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not
use this advantage...

\- housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe)

\- prices are generally quite high

\- internet connectivity feels like we're 10 years back

\- outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn't feel like there were any
interesting opportunities in IT (that's a subjective and based on a very
limited evidence from discussions with local / personal observations)

\- food quality is good, but eating habits don't seem to follow. Obesity seems
to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double attention
to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought that in such
a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all the time.

Would be very happy to hear stories that made the move ! Also very interested
to hear about opportunities / work environment there in IT (even better if
it's ML related).

~~~
bspn
I too am considering a move to NZ for family reasons, and visited Auckland
last month. It truly is a spectacular city framed by an amazing harbor, but
it's not without some faults. My thoughts on the cons you raise based on
conversations I had with a few locals:

> _housing prices are extremely high. I don 't understand that, there is
> plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage
> to not use this advantage.._

Yes, it really is crazy particularly when you look at prices relative to
salaries. As I understand it, the primary driver is everyone wants to live in
Auckland as that's where most of the higher paying jobs are located which is
driving up prices. Also, given the city is on an isthmus, the main space is
really North and South of the city which increases commute times on already
clogged highways.

> _housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe)_

This is slowly changing as proper insulation becomes a requirement, but
compared to Europe and US houses the quality is incredibly poor.

> _prices are generally quite high_

For consumer goods, absolutely. Also dining out seemed expensive, but
supermarket costs seemed pretty reasonable given the quality of the food.

> _internet connectivity feels like we 're 10 years back_

I was pleasantly surprised by this. I was regularly getting 50-100 down where
I stayed, and it appears the government has made ultra-fast broadband a
national priority so it should hopefully continue to improve over the next
decade. One thing people warned me though is don't expect anything to happen
quickly in NZ.

> _outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn 't feel like there were any
> interesting opportunities in IT_

Have you looked at Christchurch? Apparently the government is incentivizing
companies to build there with the goal of making it the high tech capital of
the South Island. I believe Vodafone has some pretty impressive plans for the
city.

> _food quality is good, but eating habits don 't seem to follow. Obesity
> seems to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double
> attention to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought
> that in such a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all
> the time._

I believe this is largely driven by income inequality, much like here in the
US. While the food really is phenomenal quality, families at the lower end of
the socio-economic ladder are often priced out of the market and default to
unhealthy options as a matter of necessity. Also, it was explained to me that
a lot of Maori and Polynesian recipes are very fatty which is why they tend to
be over-represented in obesity statistics.

Overall my impression after visiting is that it's a great country, but it's
not perfect. Prices are higher (due to it's isolation) and salaries are lower,
but people tend to worry less about materialistic things and "getting ahead".
There seems to be more of a relaxed mood to everything and as my wife
contemplate where we want to raise our kids that is hugely appealing.

~~~
abalashov
One concern I always have in the back of my mind about NZ is seismic activity.
I thought of it since you mentioned Christchurch.

It's unlikely to be seen as a major downside by those living in California and
along the Pacific Rim, and it's clear NZ is no worse than Japan in terms of
seismic risk, yet an advanced economy with plenty of people thrives there, to
put it mildly.

But coming from the US midwest and then the southeast, where these issues are
seldom a concern, it makes me nervous.

What are your thoughts on that?

~~~
TheAlchemist
Just don't go to Rotorua :)

The whole place feels like it's unstable and ready to blow ! I loved the city,
but I'm not sure I could live there, with those constant remainders of the
seismic activity (this plus the smell...)

~~~
EdwardDiego
I wouldn't worry about earthquakes in Rotorua - if you get any, they're a
helpful warning of impending eruption ;)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taupo_Volcanic_Zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taupo_Volcanic_Zone)

Fun fact - Auckland is built on a large monogenetic volcanic field.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field)

------
40_pending
How bizarre. I specifically relocated from NZ to the U.S. because of the lack
of job opportunities in the Tech industry. I'd been looking for a job for over
9 months in New Zealand. I flew into the U.S. to visit my dad and applied for
some jobs and had an offer within two weeks. Not only is the cost of living
cheaper here (where I'm located at in the U.S.), but my salary is much better
off at about 30,000 higher than what I ever made in NZ.

If politics is what's motivating your relocation to a country like New
Zealand, let me assure you, local politics are just as silly if not more so
over there. Not only that but people are just as obsessed with American
politics, and as an American, you will be singled out for these political
discussions often. You may even find yourself discriminated against for your
origins and nationality as I often did.

~~~
lacampbell
What was your salary in NZ?

~~~
40_pending
My last salary was about 70,000 NZD, which is less than $49,000 USD. I now
make $87,000 USD (about 124,000 NZD), and I've got a written agreement for a
raise to $95,000 in about another six months (135,000 NZD). The most I ever
made in NZ was one year where I worked two different contractor jobs at about
60 hours per week and I brought in maybe 80k NZD ($56,000 USD). I now make
$31,000 USD more than that at just 40 hours of work per week.

~~~
lacampbell
Are you a junior dev? Those contracting rates are _awful_.

I'd class 70k as great for a junior, mediocre for intermediate and a joke for
a senior. Wonder if they low-balled you for being a foreigner.

FWIW as a NZer you hit the nail on the head about the anti-americanism, and
simultaneous obsession with american politics.

~~~
driverdan
It depends on where you live in the US. That salary would be low in the Bay
but high in other places.

~~~
lacampbell
70 NZD = ~49 USD that's low in the bay but high in other places?!

------
cylinder
I love how these comments always boil down to salary and cost of living
arguments. People, (mostly Americans), you're doing it wrong. What kind of
fool moves to a remote island in the middle of nowhere and then expects to
somehow still earn as much as in the United States? This is not the right
reason to expatriate. Go because you love NZ (or X country) not because you
want to leave America. Go because you like the lifestyle and traditions the
locals live, not because you want to transport your high earning consumer
abundance life into a different country. You will be doomed for failure if you
do.

~~~
mavdi
I did that and pretty much earn what I used to earn in London. Perhaps a
little more. There are excellent options for talented techies, need a little
bit of trust in yourself and you're all set.

------
rconti
Funny how it goes from appealing to "American Lord of the Rings nerds and
Peter Thiel" really quickly.

Had our honeymoon in New Zealand and really loved it. Auckland and Wellington
are both beautiful, but, frankly, I'd rather be somewhere more relaxed like
Nelson. I wish we had spent more time enjoying the south island and less time
up north. Not so practical if you're trying to find work, though, I suppose.
(I didn't make it to Christchurch).

The housing prices really did surprise, though. Granted, most places I looked
at housing costs were more "wandering around town, find real estate office,
look at what's in the window" so it ended up being expensive places like
Auckland, Queenstown, Wanaka, etc, but it was still quite surprising, and left
me wondering how anyone could afford it without bringing in money from the
outside.

Then again, the grass is always greener -- I moved from Seattle to the SF area
15 years ago for the better weather and better traffic (don't laugh!) yet
every time I travel, I find myself drawn to living in places like Reykjavik,
Stockholm, Copenhagen, Nelson, etc. I'm sure the realities of the climates of
these various places would come to me after the novelty wore off. And perhaps
I just look fondly upon them because they remind me of "home" \-- even though
I was so happy to leave it.

~~~
SmellTheGlove
I left DC for Maine. So far, the novelty hasn't worn off. I like to think of
cold, snowy winters as the natural repellent that prevents us from getting too
crowded.

I am screwed if my job goes away (screwed in that I'd have to move). For one,
there aren't a lot of fortune 500 companies up here, and I've noticed a desire
for smaller companies to prefer people with small/startup experience. I don't
blame them, some of the challenges are unique. Also, given where I'm at in my
career on the low end of the executive ranks, there just aren't a lot of
laterals available up here on a good day.

All of those downsides and it's still the best move I ever made.

~~~
eropple
For a different viewpoint, I moved away from Maine after college, to
Massachusetts, and wouldn't move back. The politics of the area are backwards
and profoundly broken in the "boy, I hope you're a straight white male or
things are gonna get _rough_ " sort of way you don't expect from the general
oasis of New England sanity, the drug issues in the places I grew up are
rampant, and the public schools are being actively choked to death (because
who needs that, yeah?).

It's a beautiful place. I'm glad I left and I'm glad the few people in my
family still there are either retired or working on escaping.

~~~
SmellTheGlove
I'm in the Portland area, which I think helps. Occasionally we miss city life,
so we head down to Boston, which is a pretty reasonable 90 minute drive.

I don't think I could live too far north of Freeport or Brunswick, and I'm not
very interested in living too far west of 95. Parts of this state are
certainly backwards. Actually, the majority is if you go by land area, but I
think we have a nice thing going in York and Cumberland counties.

~~~
eropple
Portland's okay. I enjoy visiting for a few days here and there. But it's
attached to a state that elected Paul LePage, which is...a problem.

------
lacampbell
A lot of Americans seem to have an idyllic notion of moving to NZ - often for
political or LOTR movie reasons. If you're even toying with the idea, do
yourself a favour and check out the following:

\- Salaries

\- Housing price

\- Housing _quality_ \- expect to pay top dollar for luxuries like insulation,
double-glazed windows, and kitchens built within the last few decades.

\- The cost of a car, and the size and quality of the roads

\- The cost of electronic appliances, food, etc

Completely unrelated, what's the going salary for an intermediate
programmer/analyst in one of those really flat US states full of cornfields?

~~~
debacle
The politics of New Zealand, especially when it comes to land rights +
individual freedoms, can be enlightening.

~~~
lacampbell
How so?

~~~
bootload
Waitangi. The successful negotiation of land with Māori.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi)

~~~
antome
Kiwi here, what happened is moreso that the British accidentally gave the
Maori more rights than they anticipated in the translation, and as the country
became more progressive in the 20th century, the govt decided to respect those
rights.

------
zinckiwi
I'm an expat kiwi would would have loved to move back from the US over the
past few years, but unfortunately it suffers from a similar problem to the San
Fran/SV scene here. Most tech employers are in Auckland, and the housing
prices are insane. Remote work isn't embraced even a tenth of what it could or
should be. I love it there, but for the kind of environment I'd need
(affordable family home + strong job propsects) we've just been priced out in
our time away.

~~~
Taniwha
Do what I did - move back home somewhere cheap, keep your US job. Living in
Dunedin on my silicon valley salary, as I have for the past 15 years or so (I
lived in the Bay Area for 20 years), is a good place to be, trading my over-
inflated Bay Area house for a good mortgage free one here helps too.

------
anupshinde
New Zealand isn't cheaper. If you compare it to SF and NY, yes it will look
cheaper. But otherwise its costlier for some people(immigrants) who wish to
come in.

Financially, its not important what you earn, its important how much can you
keep/save.

From a financial perspective - NZ salaries are relatively lower compared to
its costs of living. A well paid tech guy from India would save a lot more in
SF than they can ever do in NZ. For talented senior developers in India, they
lose financially by going to NZ. And lack of (job) options is quite visible.

From a non-financial perspective - NZ is one of the best countries to live in.
But just that is not going to bring you the top-tech-talent.

------
Gatsky
I love NZ... but I live in Melbourne, Australia and there are tons of kiwis
here (including many close friends and colleagues). They come here because
salaries are better, adjusted cost of living is less and there are just more
opportunities for professionals.

Australia isn't perfect but I'm not really sure that NZ is a more attractive
destination for tech workers.

~~~
EdwardDiego
You forgot that a) it's warmer and b) Melbourne has a sweet nightlife - not
surprising when it has the same population as our entire country.

Yeah, come to New Zealand because you like mountains and temperate
rainforests. Not to advance your IT career. I think in 20 years time that may
change though - the tyranny of distance applies less to software than other
products.

------
LouisSayers
As a Kiwi, here are my thoughts:

Isolation: yes, you are away from the troubles of the world, but it also means
you'll be away from your families, you don't get Amazon Prime, and
surprisingly you won't have as many Netflix movies to choose from. Don't
expect to miss gridlock traffic, or be living in a Hobbit house lol

Costs: Don't expect NZ to be super cheap. Housing prices are ridiculous and
often won't have much in terms of insulation and heating. Food prices will be
fairly normal (although you will have a diverse selection, and it's generally
good quality), and you're simply not going to get paid as much as you would in
major centres elsewhere in the world. Phone and internet plans are going to be
expensive. Also, take into account those flights home you'll be making - they
won't come cheap.

Entertainment: There will be fun things to do for sure, but don't expect as
much as what you might get in other major cities. NZ is however great for
sports, and you'll fit right in if you have a sporting hobby or two.

People: NZ has a diverse population, and has a unique culture. Don't expect it
to be like wherever else you're from. As a kiwi, I love the NZ culture - I
love that people will stop and help you out, that police are friendly and non-
threatening, and that we have the ability to laugh at ourselves, and not take
things so seriously. Just like anywhere however, you do run into dickheads
every now and then.

All in all, NZ is a "pretty choice" (pretty good) place to live. I imagine
it'd be quite a bit of a culture shock for some people though, and it's not
all cherries and rainbows. Some people might find it a little boring, others
might like the chilled atmosphere and laid-backness.

------
geebee
New Zealand does sound pretty incredible. A massive national park, the size of
California, with only 5 million people, and very liveable and appealing
cities.

Here's the thing. Would New Zealand stay that way if it pursued a policy of
large scale immigration, they way the US has? The US takes well over a million
new immigrants into the country every year. 10 years of our immigration would
triple the size of New Zealand.

I'm sure they could find takers. Plenty of people would love to move to New
Zealand.

I do wonder why the US, which takes over a million immigrants a year, takes so
much heat for enforcing immigration policy, while New Zealand receives so much
praise for being an ideal society.

It sounds like New Zealand may use its selectivity to allow in immigrants, but
only those likely to contribute significantly to the bottom line. In a way,
their exclusivity may actually help them cherry pick the very best. As
strategy, I get it. But again, the NYTimes has been immensely critical of
deportations in the US. Why do they give NZ a pass on this? And if they're
going to praise New Zealand, doesn't that mean they're praising a very limited
immigration policy?

I mean, how about this last quote: “It’s boom time for the next 10 years,” Mr.
Drury said. The more immigrants, the better. “We’ll take a lot. We’ll take
hundreds.”

Woah, not _hundreds_?

~~~
lacampbell
_A massive national park, the size of California, with only 5 million people_

I'm sorry but that's an incredibly ignorant thing to say. NZ is not a massive
national park. Take a brief glance at it on google maps. Most of it is light
green - farmland.

We have about the same forest area % as Idaho. Or is that a massive national
park as well?

~~~
geebee
I learn a lot from debating on HN. I will avoid saying this in the future.

I will agree that the statement is ignorant if taken very literally and, in my
opinion, uncharitably. I don't actually think NZ is literally a giant national
park, though it is a naturally beautiful and relatively undeveloped place.

Still in highly contentious arguments it's best to avoid giving people the
opportunity to call you ignorant, so in future iterations I'll certainly be
more careful.

------
interfixus
Great for the Kiwis. I wish them well.

But regrettably, I lack the patience to read past an intro sort of equating
the ramifications of Brexit with those of Islamic State.

Could journalism please step outside for a minute and perform a reality check?

~~~
zimablue
Brexit is arguably much more destructive to Britain than Isis to the US. In
the absence of major casualties economic impact is relevant. It wiped 10% of
the pound's value out and there will be more impact before we're done. The day
Isis knocks 10% off the dollar...

~~~
mywittyname
Not even arguably.

Hell, Brexit is more destructive to _Americans_ than ISIS is.

------
agentile
A while back I was going through the immigration process for NZ with an
immigration lawyer and had all the points necessary and was moving on to the
interview phase.

My wife and I ultimately decided to stop as she became pregnant and didn't
want to be as far away from family. That and the flight/quarantine times that
would be imposed for our dogs. Another big issue was taxes.

To my knowledge NZ and USA are two countries that will try to tax you wherever
you live until you die unless you renounce citizenship. So dealing with being
double taxed on income from NZ and USA was a big deal as well.

Whenever I read these articles, it does sound so appealing. My sister has
lived there for many years and the quality of life just seems so much better.

~~~
Lazare
> To my knowledge NZ and USA are two countries that will try to tax you
> wherever you live until you die unless you renounce citizenship.

US yes, NZ no. The US is practically the only country in the world to do that
actually. And they _WILL_ hit you with an extra "exit" tax if you try and
renounce your citizenship too.

~~~
dvtv75
NZ yes.

My ex's family went and worked in Australia for a year or two. They boarded
the plane, came back to New Zealand, and got a letter from the IRD demanding
payment of taxes for the time they worked in Australia. Her father shot back
that "They did not use any services from" NZ at all. The IRD responded that
the services were available, and if they didn't pay their tax bill they were
ready to initiate prosecution.

~~~
Lazare
_In general_ , that is not the law, nor is that common IRD practice, as the
many, many, many kiwis who spend time in Australia could tell you.

At a guess, your ex's family managed to stay resident in NZ (or the IRD may
have incorrectly believed them to be so), or they spent too much time in NZ,
or didn't spend enough time in the US, or the IRD just screwed up the
paperwork, etc.

But the law is quite clear, and is explained in detail on the IRD's website:
[http://www.ird.govt.nz/international/residency/dta/double-
ta...](http://www.ird.govt.nz/international/residency/dta/double-tax-
agreements-index.html)

------
lubujackson
I know several kiwis and my wife has traveled there extensively. The biggest
issues seem to stem from "island culture" which means:

\- Most things are expensive and lower quality than you are used to.
Furniture, housing, food, etc. Simply because of isolation and logistics. \-
Poor job market, terribly poor for most people. \- Which leads to rules making
it much harder to move to NZ long term. Unless you meet some high bars
(several million dollars in the bank or married to a kiwi, etc.) it is hard to
get permanent residence there.

On the other hand, it is one of the most beautiful and rugged countries in the
world. An unlike Australia, every plant and animal is not actively trying to
kill you.

~~~
dvtv75
I lived in Dunedin.

Items there were charged at rates suitable for wealthy tourists. Pay rates
were legal minimums, although the added extras you had to provide for your
work were well outside any legal rights employers have. For my last job, I
used my PC and other personal equipment just to do my job, while my employer
sat back and raked in the cash. (Almost literally, they would pay $6k in wages
and $0 for equipment while billing $60+k for a job. One guy I know who took a
similar role in the business has had a verbal warning for not doing his job
properly, so he's providing his own equipment.)

A friend of mine lives in Auckland. A year or so back, he explained that his
rent had more than doubled in a single day. (He was on a fixed term lease that
expired, he went to renew it, and the rent went up but his income didn't.)

------
gravypod
I don't think New Zealand's selling point will ever be isolation. To have
isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want
to bother you. New Zealand is very beautiful and interesting but there are
still many laws and many people who want to bother you.

Maybe this is "isolation" in a previously unheard of, to me, sense where you
just don't want to be a citizen of a major nation or something? I don't know.
For what I think of as "isolation" NZ is too draconian.

Higher taxes and stricter laws really make it a no go for many people.

When 50k USD lands you in the highest tax bracket (30%), when everything tech
related is more expensive, and you're a software engineer it's a hard sell.

NZ's biggest selling points are low crime, low unemployment, interesting area,
and attractive social programs. It's definetly not an isolationist paradise
unless you define isolationist as being "not in America, Middle East, or
Europe" which this article seems happy to do.

~~~
vacri
> _It 's definetly not an isolationist paradise_

"Isolation" and "Isolationist" are significantly different concepts. One is a
physical property, the other is a social construct.

> _To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people
> don 't want to bother you._

This isn't isolationism either. Switzerland is isolationist, but it has plenty
of strict laws (including conscription), for example. What you're describing
is a libertarian fantasy country.

~~~
gravypod
> "Isolation" and "Isolationist" are significantly different concepts. One is
> a physical property, the other is a social construct.

Someone who want's to isolate themselves, in search of "isolation", can be
called an "isolationist".

> This isn't isolationism either. Switzerland is isolationist, but it has
> plenty of strict laws (including conscription), for example. What you're
> describing is a libertarian fantasy country.

If you want to be "isolated" you need a place where others will stay away from
you. People who want to make you do things will undoutably cause people to
come and enforce those desires. Any place that want's to force people to do
things is not friendly to those who would like to "isolate" themselves...
those whom could be called "isolationists" or "practicioners of isolation".

The word "isolationist" in a national context means the nation is the one
practicing isolation. From my context it is clear that the personal is
attempting to practice isolation. I don't think your interpretation of what I
was saying is correct.

~~~
vacri
One of the really annoying things about libertarianism is the way it takes
words that other people already use, redefine it to mean something else, and
then tells those people they're wrong for using the original word.

An 'isolationist' is someone who wants their country to withdraw from the
world politically. It's not someone who wants to live 'off the grid'. It's not
someone who is frightened by a 30% marginal tax bracket. It's not another term
for 'libertarian'. Someone who wants to live off by themselves with little
interaction with others is called a hermit, not an isolationist.

~~~
gravypod
Googling "define isolationist" gives the following:

    
    
        a person favoring a policy of remaining apart from the affairs or interests of other groups, especially the political affairs of other countries.
    
    

Googling "define isolation":

    
    
        the process or fact of isolating or being isolated.
    

Where did I redefine those?

------
jankotek
Ireland is similar, minus the isolation. In Shannon you can leave a car 100
meters from terminal, and board direct US flight in 30 minutes.

~~~
ivm
Ireland is under the radar. One more hidden gem is Chile, especially
considering land/property prices and freelance-friendly visas.

~~~
GFischer
Salaries in Chile aren't that great though (except for some top-level talent I
guess). I've been told about USD 3000/month tops. But it's definitely the best
country in South America for IT talent.

I live in Uruguay, and Americans think it's great, but it's not (barring an
exceptional job offer/salary as usual). Lots of jobs but very low paying (USD
1000/month take home salary for entry level dev, USD 2000 for experienced dev.
Gross salary can be almost twice because taxes are very harsh) and extremely
expensive on a standard salary. We do have a tremendous amount of immigrants
from the poorer Latin American countries, especially Venezuela and Dominican
Republic.

~~~
fernly
In my post-election funk last fall I was researching places to get the hell
out to, and discovered Uruguay, as a very attractive possibility for a decent
place to live -- provided one had good Spanish. But you say wages are low? How
much of a tech industry is there?

------
djoldman
What are the internet throughput and latencies for typical setups in
residential locations in New Zealand? What about more expensive commercial
setups?

~~~
HXFIVE
75% of the population will have access to fibre at gigabit speeds by 2019 [1].
Coverage will increase to 84% by 2024. Not sure about latencies off the top of
my head, but there are several new international cables under construction [2]
which will help which accessing sites hosted overseas.

[1] [https://www.crownfibre.govt.nz/](https://www.crownfibre.govt.nz/) [2]
[http://www.hawaikicable.co.nz/](http://www.hawaikicable.co.nz/)

~~~
justinclift
That nice for 2019. How about atm though? :)

~~~
HXFIVE
The rollout started a number of years ago. They're already over 70% of the way
towards the 75% target.

------
zoom6628
Folks - a kiwi here. There are loads of tech companies in NZ and in the past
developers are attracted by the lifestyle. Orion in the health space, Xero
SaaS accounting system, Navman, hell even the first GSM controlled Coke
vending machine was from NZ. GPS chips for mobiles invented by Radon, and we
of course have Tait Electronics in Christchurch who do military comms gear -
everybody who wants the best for the most extreme environments buys their
gear.

Auckland house prices pushed up a load by Chinese families needing somewhere
safe to put their cash outside of China. And the only thing they could put
into was housing.

As to quality of housing its different to Europe because of the cliate duh!
Solid stone and brick houses are not suited to temperate climates. And yes
they are smaller than American houses because NZers dont live inside all year
round. If its cold or wet, then just tough up, wear more clothes, and get on
with your ife instead of hiding in your concrete bunker with the central
heating on (you wont find those either).

First and foremost consider the lifestyle. If that is for you then you can be
sure if you are capable then you will find work. NZ has the world's highest
proportion of self-employed and entrepreneurs and still an attitude of 'can-
do' prevails.

------
nandreev
Has anyone here made the move? It would be interesting to hear some real life
stories, and post honeymoon-phase pros/cons evaluation of NZ.

~~~
scalatohaskell
I have, from EU. I've been living in Auckland for 2 years. Scala dev. I left
recently though. I think I may have good perspective, shoot me questions if
you want.

~~~
BonoboBoner
What made you leave? Did you miss european culture ( or sports on TV or
anything like that)? How did you deal with the time difference between Europe
and NZ? When I was in NZ on vacation I missed being able to watch the stuff
that I am used to on TV in the evening, due to the twelve hour time difference
to Europe. I dont think I could ever switch from soccer to cricket.

~~~
scalatohaskell
> What made you leave? Missing friends and family, very hard to reach with
> 12hours difference even by phone. Requires lots of coordination.

Very isolated - very little "new" jobs, conferences(Scala) etc... all in
respect to EU (where there are hundreds of scala positions etc.).

I was on very good salary (100kNZD++ dollars / year), life was very very
comfortable. Besides huge purchases buying house or like that which I couldn't
do I found it very hard to spend over half my salary (never cooking, eating
twice a day out). I was living alone in AKL renting all the time.

Weather is very nice, but sun is very very strong, so you require sunscreen
100% of time.

> Did you miss european culture ( or sports on TV or anything like that)?

Yes. I'm not sure how to put it, as I'm not native English speaker, but I hope
noone will get offended by following. Also this may wildly differ outside of
AKL. There are lots of ethnicities, which is fine, but I am single and I am
most attracted to single type, so the pool for me to find girlfriend from is
much much smaller (I'd say about 20-30%). While people are very very friendly
there, the nightlife in Auckland is pretty bad (was much better in Wellington
when I flew there once).

> How did you deal with the time difference between Europe and NZ? When I was
> in NZ on vacation I missed being able to watch the stuff that I am used to
> on TV in the evening, due to the twelve hour time difference to Europe. I
> dont think I could ever switch from soccer to cricket.

I don't watch TV so I didn't miss it, and they occasionally had NHL live games
on, which is great, since I couldn't watch it in EU since lots of them were at
crazy times. They are huge for cricket and rugby, which I given some try but I
did not enjoy it as much.

All in all, I do not regret going there and it's awesome country, but my take
on it is, if you have a family, it's the ideal place to move into. Schools are
great, it's very safe country, people are mostly happy, and salary of
programmer's is very very decent. If you're single, and move there on your
own, you're gonna have it a bit tougher, but lots of that depends on you.

------
nbrempel
If you like the sound of NZ but don't want to commit to such a big move, come
check out British Columbia. We're like NZ lite. :)

~~~
wired8
NZ lite... more like the inverse. Vancouver and specifically BC has a lot of
similarities to NZ yes, including the frequent liquid sunshine.

Having spent approx half my working life in (Wellington/Vancouver) I'd say
Vancouver would be a more natural fit for our US cousins.

However that said you can't beat NZ for internal travel, day trips, adventure
tourism. Its basically a compact version of British Columbia.

~~~
Taniwha
Remember than NZ is a long thin country that spans very roughly the same
distance north-south as the US West Coast (it's just that you grew up with
those maps where the Northern Hemisphere is twice the size of the Southern).

It also spans roughly the same range of climates - Dunedin where I live is
Seattle/VancouverBC sort of climate (and the southern West Coast is very
Olympic Peninsular subtropical rain forest). On the other hand
Auckland/Northland is Californiaish but with more tropical moisture because
we're an island and not a continent

------
rdiddly
"From the Devonport ferry, passengers can get a view of downtown Auckland."

...IF they would just look up from their phones. Humorous photo. Illustrates
something though, which is that the more you "court" people from the USA
(presumably on the basis that your country is so different from and far from
the USA) the more your country starts to resemble the USA.

------
15charlimit
Good luck courting new tech talent when existing tech talent gets hung out to
dry at the first hint of pressure.

See Kim Dotcom's troubles for reference.

~~~
EdwardDiego
The NZ government bending over for the US government was not exactly very
popular with the locals. A different government may have had a stronger spine.

You also forgot the part where Kim Dotcom is a convicted fraudster, who was
making money through deliberate violation of copyright, is all tech talent
like him?

Oh, and then there was the time he tried to get involved in NZ politics. That
was not superpopular.

~~~
lacampbell
_The NZ government bending over for the US government was not exactly very
popular with the locals._

The NZ government still refuses to let US warships that may be nuclear powered
into our ports, and thus has no free trade deal with the worlds largest
economy. Instead we have a free trade deal with Red China, which is now
colonising us.

~~~
rfw
The US announced their participation in the TPP in 2009, a free trade
agreement encompassing trade between the US and New Zealand. The Obama
administration had been very gung-ho about its ratification in the US, so I
don't think the question of nuclear powered warships comes up much anymore.

I don't think you can squarely point to the New Zealand–China FTA for
whichever interpretation of colonization you'd like – immigration laws were
mostly unchanged by the FTA with the exception of short term work visas, and
property purchases by Chinese investors is not an exclusively "countries who
have negotiated free trade agreements with China" phenomenon (see Vancouver in
Canada, Seattle in the US).

------
grappler
For me there is an undeniable appeal to “voting with your feet” after the
result of the voting at the ballot box turned out so poorly.

I personally likely won't be impacted too badly by Trump and his supporters. I
may have economic options here that are as good as or better than my options
anywhere else. But I feel a need to put some distance between this country and
myself now. It doesn't represent me anymore. I don't belong to it anymore. I'm
not ok with the decision it made. I've even felt that it ceased to be a place
worth caring about.

There are just a couple things that pull me back from this line of thinking: A
broader view of history and a broader view of alternative places in the world.

History: The last election may be the biggest step backward my country has
taken since I was born, but I don't get to pretend that it was so wonderful
before that. Yes, we all know this. But I just relearned it even more
forcefully in a piece I read a couple weeks ago:
[http://www.mtv.com/news/2998426/fascism-has-already-come-
to-...](http://www.mtv.com/news/2998426/fascism-has-already-come-to-america/)

Places in the world: If I'm going to leave for the reasons above, I need good
reasons why another place is better. But every place has its downsides. There
probably is a good case to be made in favor of a number of places, but if I'm
going to be honest about this, I need to research it and not move reflexively
without knowing a lot about the place I'm moving to. And if I do move
somewhere, I should do it with some degree of commitment to put some effort
into making that place better. Otherwise any anti-immigration sentiments that
exist there will probably be right about me.

Being able to chose your home, rather than having to stay where you were born,
is a valuable thing. But at some point it is good to choose a home and invest
in it.

------
draw_down
Isolation sounds good. Super high housing costs relative to wages sounds...
familiar, shall I say.

------
rdl
If Pacific Fibre had happened in New Zealand, I'd seriously consider living
there. Unfortunately it died for a combination of not raising enough money
(sigh) and trumped-up US national security concerns (they were planning to use
Huawei equipment).

------
mhoad
Some really interesting numbers looking at various cost of living expenses and
local purchasing power between say San Francisco and Christchurch here
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=New+Zealand&country2=United+States&city1=Christchurch&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison)

------
besogno
It all revolves around jobs in which face-to-face spitting is deemed
essential. My own job is about programming. I do that from Southeast Asia
nowadays.

I wonder why I would ever consider doing that from New Zealand?

I would not make one more dollar while I would spend truck loads on things
that I do not need, such as taxes and inflated housing cost, and what have
you.

~~~
EdwardDiego
The taxes pay for a healthy society.

------
blanket_the_cat
Cool, now you can help develop clever mechanisms to exfiltrate information and
wealth from end users and consolidate capital into the hands of those who
already possess more than they need, from the picturesque, rolling green hills
of sunny New Zealand... Wake me up when the tech scene in Monrovia is booming
out of control.

------
zoom6628
First and foremost consider the lifestyle. If that is for you then you can be
sure if you are capable then you will find work. NZ has the world's highest
proportion of self-employed and entrepreneurs and still an attitude of 'can-
do' prevails.

------
sbardle
I think NZ could become a major tech hub over the next 15 years. The
geographical isolation will be alleviated by the internet and the development
of faster air travel.

For anyone interested in tech, wanting to start up or grow in NZ, check out
the Edmund Hilary fellowship.

------
jostmey
There's something special when a certain density of talented people live
together. Moving toward an isolated environment is never a good idea. I'm sure
the title is a little misleading.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against New Zealand and I am no fan of San
Francisco

~~~
sbardle
Moving towards an isolated environment is pretty much what pioneers do. If
they succeed, people will follow and new networks develop.

------
eggie5
I'm in that looksee contest the article says got works wide interest but when
I look at the online dashboard it says only 556 people are registered and in
the running....

~~~
random_rr
Me too - I stopped participating after they announced a security leak a few
weeks ago.

------
Glyptodon
Sooo in my view this helps prove that there's not so much a developer shortage
as a failure in recruitment and hiring practices in the US.

------
angryteabag
As a New Zealander who wants to move to the USA, swap? (jk immigration laws
make it impossible)

------
tjpnz
Low pay, corrupt politicians, high crime, polluted lakes and rivers. What's
not to like?

------
juskrey
The truth is that people registered there for a free trip.

------
throwaway729
_> For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay
off Facebook._

Really only the cost of living.

 _> Commuting is less wearying_

Not really.

There's a near zero percent chance your commute involves anything other than
driving. The walkable areas of midwestern cities are certainly cheaper than
SF, but they're also not exactly cheap. You're still looking at half a million
for a decent house, 200k for a decent condo, and that's on a midwestern
salary. Not to mention the weather.

And if you're driving, well, driving is driving.

 _> And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other
side of the world... [can be avoided] Especially if you stay off Facebook._

I mean, I guess you can just _avoid talking to people altogether_ , but
avoiding Facebook is no way to avoid the nastier parts of American populist
politics in the midwest, which is decidedly Trump's America. On my last visit
I learned that there are still people who very strongly believe that Obama is
a Muslim and Clinton is a witch (literally, as in worships satan. I'm not
exaggerating and they weren't being coy with language). And I wasn't even
seeking them out, they were just the people I was obligated to spend time
with.

So no, the midwest isn't some cheaper version of California. There's a reason
why people like me leave after a few decades and never look back. The weather
sucks, the cities are either unlivable or not appreciably cheaper, and there's
a high concentration of extremely unpleasant people.

~~~
muninn_
There are so many things wrong with this comment.

First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to
work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the
parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute.
Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to
drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and people
like Jeff Speck preach the gospel as far as I'm concerned - but I'll take a
daily 20 minute drive over an hour hopping on and off trains any day of the
week - especially when I can do so from my nice, comfy Lexus or whatever.

You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet
isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a
bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of
places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for
some people weather isn't that big of a deal.

>And don't get me started on the casual racism/homophobia. The Midwest is
Trump's America. In-laws firmly believe Obama is a Muslim and that Hillary
Clinton is a witch. I'm not exaggerating for effect, and they're not being
coy. Sincerely held beliefs.

Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family
stupid. My parents don't think Obama is a Muslim , aren't at all racist, and
they voted for Trump. I don't think Obama is a Muslim (I voted for him both
times) and I don't like Hillary. So you can stop with the drive-by
generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones.

~~~
throwaway729
_> There are so many things wrong with this comment._

I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious
down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're
going to be in for a rough surprise.

Do you disagree?

 _> First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to
work_

My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and
if you have to drive anyways, your commute will suck no matter where you live.

OR, if you don't end up driving, you're actually not saving much on cost of
housing. And you probably have a lower salary with which to purchase that
prime real estate. Basically, little net benefit over California or other
coastal states.

 _> You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet
isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a
bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of
places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for
some people weather isn't that big of a deal._

First, I don't live in California.

I agree with everything else. It's really all beside the point, though.

 _> Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family
stupid... So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially
these undeserved "casually racist" ones._

My family isn't stupid. Pretty smart by any objective measure aside from
willingness to believe confirmational bullshit, actually. Which is kind of my
point. They're embedded in a terrible culture.

Look, I lived in the midwest for decades. I know what I'm talking about.

The politics of the region is dominated by this sort of stuff. It's a LOT more
common and MUCH more difficult to avoid in the midwest. The composition of
state houses speaks for itself. Name a midwestern state and I'll go member-by-
member through its General Assembly to demonstrate to you the obscene
popularity of blatant intolerance. Seriously, shoot.

It bleeds over into every aspect of life.

If you're lucky enough to be white male and straight, you can just _avoid
talking to people all-together_ , or silo yourself off from your community,
and mostly ignore the terrible culture of the region. Which is what I did. But
if you like living in a community where you know and respect your neighbors,
the midwest can be a tough place to be.

~~~
cookiecaper
This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture
in California. I _intentionally_ avoid living in CA due to its
culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to
CA.

Like all places, the Midwest is not without its unhappy quirks or its
difficult people, but Midwesterners are noticeably polite and friendly, even
coming from other "flyover" regions.

Yes, they are generally conservative (not universally, and especially not
among the young), but they can usually get along with their neighbors just
fine.

When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple
gay _teachers_ living in our neighborhood. While I'm sure it upset some of the
parents, these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and
spent many years teaching at the schools. This was in a very red region, not
some liberal enclave.

We had people of all races and it was rarely, if ever, a visible issue. We
didn't have anyone shouting racial slurs or visibly denigrating people. I'm
sure this happened occasionally, not trying to say that there are literally 0
racists, but it was by no means a sentiment you'd come across with any
frequency.

If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more
"intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who _also_ live in big cities than
someone who lives in the Midwest.

The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such
aspersions on it.

~~~
throwaway729
_> This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile
culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its
culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to
CA._

This is certainly true! To each his own. My point was that the midwest
probably isn't a great place to be if you're looking for "cheaper California".

Sounds like we agree on that.

 _> When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but
multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood... these teachers were able
to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the
schools_

1\. "Not being fired for being gay" is literally the lowest bar I can think of
other that "not being imprisoned for being gay".

2\. A school I attended explicitly discriminated against trans people in
hiring. And those are the public schools. So, YMMV. I'm sure things have
gotten better across the entire country since then, including the midwest.

3\. Even without "lose your job/house" levels of hate, the world can still be
a nasty place. E.g. imagine driving by this billboard every day:
[http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-
on-...](http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-
on-I-71-condemn-return-of-church-s-billboard.html)

And of course most of the people you interact with disagree with the sign, but
attend churches that teach the exact same thing. Those "midwestern nice"
interactions don't feel so "nice" anymore.

 _> If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more
"intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than
someone who lives in the Midwest._

Sure. The difference is _who 's in charge_! And that's the difference that
makes a difference.

 _> The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such
aspersions on it._

For you. I hated it.

~~~
cookiecaper
>"Not being fired for being gay" is literally the lowest bar I can think of
other that "not being imprisoned for being gay".

The point is that the community at large was willing to accept these people as
role models for their children and did so with minimal hostility or
interference (visible anyway, since I can't see what happens behind closed
doors). Entrusting a teaching position is a little different than any other
random job.

While I'm sure there are horror stories, in practice it would be very rare to
find someone who was legitimately "fired for being gay".

The myth that Republican areas are hostile wastelands with poor quality of
life for minorities has much more to do with confirmation bias and a desire to
justify high cost of living than anything else, IMO. This is not to discount
any personal experience you may have had, just my opinion on the sentiment in
general.

~~~
throwaway729
_> The myth that Republican areas are hostile wastelands with poor quality of
life for minorities has much more to do with confirmation bias and a desire to
justify high cost of living than anything else, IMO._

If only that were true, I'd move back to the midwest in a heart beat.

 _> This is not to discount any personal experience you may have had, just my
opinion on the sentiment in general._

Name a "that doesn't happen here" scenario -- from blatant racial
discrimination/brutality in policing to "bobby's parents sent him to pray-the-
gay-away camp" \-- and I experienced or directly witnessed a friend experience
it before coming of age.

Whenever people shame me for being overly harsh on midwestern culture, I stop
and feel guilty for a split second. Then I think back to these victims of its
excesses and the guilt quickly subsides.

I firmly believe there are decent communities in the midwest. Especially in
its cities. I don't doubt your or anyone else when you say you've had good
experiences.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change anything about the fundamental cultural
trade-winds of the aggregate region. Or the effect they have on people caught
in the zip code one over.

~~~
hueving
>Name a "that doesn't happen here" scenario -- from blatant racial
discrimination/brutality in policing to "bobby's parents sent him to pray-the-
gay-away camp" \-- and I experienced or directly witnessed a friend experience
it before coming of age.

So you were born 20+ years ago? It sounds like your notion of the Midwest is
about as stuck in the past as the notion that San Francisco is a hippie mecca.

>Whenever people shame me for being overly harsh on midwestern culture, I stop
and feel guilty for a split second. Then I think back to these victims of its
excesses and the guilt quickly subsides.

And you should feel guilty for continually shitting on a place you have no
association with anymore.

~~~
throwaway729
_> So you were born 20+ years ago?_

And left less than 3 years ago. Not much had changed. In some ways, it got a
lot worse. My perceptions aren't stuck in the past.

Again, don't believe me? Go person-by-person down your general assembly and
send an email to each asking how they feel about allowing business owners the
freedom to not serve LGBT people, or whether they will sponsor a bill to ban
conversion therapy.

Or for that matter, ask if they support legislation to outlaw incrimination
against LGBT individuals in hiring! Most midwestern states don't have such a
law on the book.

And not just your representative -- all of them. Or even just yours and all
from surrounding counties. After all, we wouldn't want to generalize.

 _> And you should feel guilty for continually shitting on a place you have no
association with anymore._

Why?

I don't think the midwest is, on balance, a nice place to live. I think the
cultural downsides of the region eventually bleed into your life, even if you
try to cloister yourself in one of the urban liberal islands. My opinion may
not be _fair_ (I think it is, but allow the possibility that a lifetime of bad
experiences was somehow unrepresentative). But it sure as hell isn't
uninformed.

I think people who are considering moving to the midwest from a coastal area
-- or especially from abroad -- should hear this perspective.

------
madengr
"ISIS on the other side of the world"; nice. I assume NZ does not have the
same immigration policy that is importing ISIS to Europe.

------
systems
New Zealand, Australia and Canada are nowadays the primary destination for
skilled worker immigrants

They are the future ...

Europe and USA will have to rely on in house minds .. which I believe will
bring more equilibrium to this world

USA, Europe and Japan are not going anywhere I am not predicting their demise
.. just that CANZAU will be the beacon

~~~
ctvo
[Giant Citation Required]

Those three countries you grouped together are very different in terms of
compensation, quality and volume re: tech companies. Australia leads in all
three while quality and volume are an issue in NZ and Canada's compensation
vs. the cost of living in its larger cities (Vancouver, Toronto) feels very
off.

~~~
systems
from the future but still works :P

[https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-
americas-u...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-americas-up-
and-coming-startup-center/) or the corresponding hn link
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14160053](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14160053)

