
California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019) - cdepman
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-prisons-idUSKBN1WQ2Q9
======
fennecfoxen
I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become
a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root
of our problems. Consider that California _state_ prisons were trying to save
money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010.

Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female
Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United States. Two thousand and god
damn thirteen. [https://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/california-
bans...](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/california-bans-
sterilization-female-inmates-without-consent-n212256)

other links. [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2013/07/09/200444613...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2013/07/09/200444613/californias-prison-sterilizations-reportedly-echoes-
eugenics-era)
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/califo...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/california-
female-prisoner-sterilization)

~~~
ogre_codes
Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as
possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good
behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power.
Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so
in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for
longer mandatory prison terms regardless of whether it makes sense for the
crime or not.

Tons of conflict of interest in private prisons which are in addition to the
potential abuses associated with public prisons.

~~~
Gustomaximus
It doesnt have to be. Why don't they do something like pay private prisons the
bare minimum per diem but then offer a trailing commission for every year an
ex-con is out of jail past a certain date.

Do the statistics for average time to return to prison, and pay them a bonus
every year a prisoner is over that average date for 10 years type thing.

So jails make little money for the incarceration but earn profits from the
rehabilitation.

~~~
dahfizz
What could also make sense is paying the prison a lump sum for the convict
instead of a per diem. This changes the incentive structure from keeping
people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as
fast as possible.

~~~
Traster
Just skip the rehab step entirely and just release them - it's cheaper for the
prison and the increased chance of re-offending means they'll get another lump
sum next go around too!

~~~
dahfizz
That's not up to the prison. The only way for a convict to leave prison early
is to convince the State that they are worth paroling.

Therefore, the prison would be incentivized to work with the prisoners to
encourage good behavior and to show the parole board that a prisoner is worth
paroling.

------
Shivetya
This isn't about protecting prisoners or their rights, this is about
protecting the jobs that the California Correctional Peace Officers
Association controls and insuring no one else performs this task. Private
prisons were forced into accepting CCPOA members but he union set forth in
campaign after campaign to rid the state of private prisons.

Back in May Newsom announced he was trying to reduce some of the in excess of
thirteen billion dollar prison budget and between allowing more prisoners out,
reducing chances more got in, and considering the role of private prisons.
However the CCPOA basically went to the legislature which it effectively owns
and here is the result. More money instead of less.

It gets wrapped up and sold under a different banner to hide the real move.
California state government is under the boot of the CSSA and both are
responsible for that the high incarceration rates. go look at any state
approaching those numbers and you will find a similar police related
organization behind it all.

This all synchronizes neatly with the problems all the recent rallies brought
forth. The public sector employee unions that run our police, fire, prison,
and education, have so much power that any attempt at reform instead usually
ends up with more money going to the very organizations causing the problem.
Besides the front facing public relations problem the back end that will soak
the public is the largess in the pension and health retirement programs, the
very same gold plated programs that resulted in the ACA being hampered from
day one.

~~~
dahfizz
> The measure, which passed the California legislature last month, does not
> apply to privately owned prisons operated and staffed by the state
> corrections agency.

It does seeem suspicious...

~~~
undersuit
Is a "privately owned prison operated and staffed by the state corrections
agency" just a rented building?

~~~
dahfizz
Technically? But a prison is not just any old building. If the inmate
population decreases, the owner's couldn't easily turn it into a strip mall,
for example. It still means private investment in the continued growth of the
prison population.

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dumbfounder
@dang can you add 2019 to the title so people know this is an old article?

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
Emailing them at hn@ycombinator.com is a better way to get this done, as they
see it faster and it avoids meta-conversations like this one lowering the
signal-to-noise ratio of the comments.

~~~
enlyth
But this way people know that this has already been requested and don't need
to keep on spamming emails

~~~
dang
That's a minor problem. In that case we just say thank you to more than one
person.

The real problem is not knowing about the issue in the first place, so it's
definitely best to email. Even if you see me replying in the thread, such as
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23501998](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23501998),
that's usually because someone called our attention to it by email.

~~~
enlyth
Good to know thanks for clarifying, and also great job on moderating, this
place is a pleasure to have discussions on thanks to efforts of people like
you.

~~~
dang
Thank you!

------
bradly
Would love to see California ban sales of goods made at private prisons as
well. Or at least disclose it on the packaging so consumers can make a
decision.

~~~
ultrarunner
Wildland firefighting is another thorny issue, where prisoners who choose to
fight fires are summarily banned from working as firefighters after release.
I’m not sure I’d advocate for removing that choice from prisoners, but the
extremely low wage seems unethical.

------
subsubzero
Private prisons have an obligation through shareholders and ownership to
maximize earnings/profit. They also have inherently less oversight than an
institution that is controlled by the state. Given statement #1 they have a
perverse incentive to acquire more inmates and keep inmates longer confined
due to receiving govt. funding for their operations every day an inmate is
housed. This also includes serving the cheapest possible food and providing
little to no benefits. That being said state prisons are no shining beacon of
enlightenment and prisoner reform.

------
lm28469
There seem to be plenty of comments that are OK with private prisons. I highly
recommend watching this documentary:
[https://youtu.be/krfcq5pF8u8](https://youtu.be/krfcq5pF8u8)

It will most likely change your mind.

~~~
bluntfang
>There seem to be plenty of comments that are OK with private prisons

Can anyone help me understand their stance? I can see being pro-prison in
general, but why pro-private prison? It's not like this specific ask is for
removing all prisons.

~~~
fennecfoxen
The premise is that government is bad at doing things — like, really really
bad, with terribly wasteful spending and little ability to correct it. If the
government pays $1B for a service and the private company can do it for $500M
then they should be able to offer the services to the government for $750M,
and both they and the taxpayers are better off.

Sometimes this works better than others, particularly when the government
group who makes the contract are held politically accountable for the quality
of the services — e.g. private sanitation services are only going to get so
bad before someone runs for office on a "fix the trash" platform. The UK has
likewise managed to do a not-entirely-trash-fire job with train franchises,
where there are several operators who bid on the rights to operate; if the
trains don't run, you can replace one operator with another at the end of the
contract. The Southern debacle of recent years is a bit of an outlier (the
contract design there was quite unfortunate) and the year of strikes and
service outages led to political pressure to do something about the state of
affairs.

Accountability is unfortunately rather absent for treatment-of-prisoner
politics, though, so it's pretty much hit-or-miss just as regards the basic
human dignity.

------
specialist
Actual bill:

AB-32 Detention facilities: private, for-profit administration
services.(2019-2020)

[http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml...](http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB32)

Rant: Why are the medias constitutionally incapable of linking to the actual
bill? Third millennium. It's all online. Cite and link your sources.
Unbelievable.

Edit: Somehow The Guardian is capable of using links. Maybe it's a British
thing. Here's their version of the same story.
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2019/sep/12/california-p...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2019/sep/12/california-private-prison-ban-immigration-ice)

------
sacks2k
I can understand private prisons (which make up a small percentage of overall
prisons).

However, what will be the solution for people that come into the US illegally,
if not temporary detainment?

~~~
gyrgtyn
hospitality

~~~
klipt
If we're going to have free movement it should probably be via a proper
agreement, like in the EU. Not a mishmash of contradictory state and federal
policies. And it should be mutual - if Mexicans and Canadians can live in the
US, Americans should be freely allowed to live in Mexico and Canada.

~~~
tathougies
We should also have standards like the European Union. And one of those
standards should be that any country participating should not be run by
warlords.

~~~
sdenton4
At risk of godwinning, by this logic the US should never have taken in all
those Jewish scientists fleeing Nazi Germany... Or any of the many, many
incredible Iranians I've known and worked with in my life. Often the best
people are fleeing intolerable conditions.

btw, the Open Borders graphic novel is fantastic: [https://www.smbc-
comics.com/openborders/](https://www.smbc-comics.com/openborders/)

~~~
tathougies
Oh no, we can take mexicans in of course, we just should't have open borders.
I would hope that, when the US took in Jewish scientists, there was a
mechanism in place to make sure they didn't take nazis disguised as jewish
scientists.

~~~
xyzzyz
We took Nazi scientists too, and they didn’t have to disguise themselves. They
built our rockets and put us in space.

------
jungletime
Seems to me like increasing the use of house arrest is so much preferable to
prison, for everyone involved. Just have it monitored properly. Maybe ankle
bracelet, an GPS monitoring. With meal delivery, and health checkups, it could
be cheaper too than housing someone in a prison. Have them take online classes
and possibly let them work online to offset the costs of the monitoring. Or
some sort of program to trade time served for working in nursing homes taking
care of the elderly.

~~~
Thlom
Where this is actually being tested, f.ex. some Scandinavian countries, the
"inmate" is allowed to leave their apartment for work and necessary errands
like grocery shopping or doctor visits. It's much better for everyone to let
the inmate work than sitting on his arse all day watching netflix.

------
antoineMoPa
Shouldn't the date be included in the title? [October 11, 2019]

------
ykevinator
They should just pay the prisoners to not repeat the crime

~~~
bufferoverflow
Then you have to pay everyone. Otherwise you will radically increase crime,
because people will want that free cash.

------
kevin_thibedeau
Ban JPay next.

------
sneak
The concentration camps and child prisons the US is operating presently are
mostly in Texas and the southwest, so this won't have much meaningful effect
on the situation.

~~~
Tomte
Isn't California southwest? I mean it borders on Mexico and the Pacific ocean.

Or is "southwest" in American usage synonymous with Texas?

~~~
clairity
many of us consider southern califoria part of the southwest, but not so much
the central and northern parts. similarly with texas, the southwestern parts,
less so with the rest.

that's because that's what borders mexico, and we have a politico-cultural
fascination with that border in particular.

~~~
catalogia
To me, "southwest" is sand and cactuses. San Francisco isn't the southwest
because it doesn't have that sort of climate. Also because 37°N doesn't seem
meaningfully "south" relative to the continental US as a whole.

I don't think it has much to do with Mexico. Nevada (well, Las Vegas anyway)
seems the "southwest" to me, and Nevada has no border with Mexico.

~~~
clairity
sure, that might be the picture that pops into our heads, but the reason we
think about the southwest as a thing at all is not because we all love the
desert.

~~~
catalogia
I'd say we think of the "Midwest" because it's flat and the "South West"
because it's sandy and hot. These clearly are geographic regions, like Pacific
Northwest, (which has evergreen forests and mountains). If your point is these
regions would have different cardinal names if borders looked different, that
might be true, but that's not exactly profound and it's certainly not a matter
of a _" politico-cultural fascination with that border in particular."_

