
Student Journalists Expose High School’s Use of Prison Labor - laurex
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/06/24/first-big-scoop-student-journalists-expose-high-school-s-use-of-prison-labor
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metacyclic
I went to high school in Belmont MA in the early 90's. For extra credit in our
drafting class, we could volunteer to help build a playground at one of the
elementary schools. The adults that were also "participating"? Prisoners.
Nobody told us, and when I offered my pocket knife to one of the adults, he
laughed and said "I don't think you want to give me that!" I learned weeks
later that they were inmates.

Nice job, teacher.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Generally speaking you never want to make enemies who are richer than you are
and for teachers in rich school districts that is all the parents. Some
parents will not like it if their kids come home talking about how they worked
with prisoners. Considering that wealthy suburbs have basically the highest
density of "can I speak to a manager" types there's no way that can end well
for the teacher(s).

Your teacher was right in deciding that keeping their mouth shut had the best
risk:reward. Blame here lies on parents for getting bent out of shape over
dumb "my kid isn't old enough for that information" type stuff too often.
Sucks but that's the society we live in.

Considering the demographics most of HN is apart of I don't expect this to be
well received here but the reality is that teachers are "disposable" to a
school district on an individual level and the people who last in wealthy
suburbs (ie. "good" schol districts) tend to be the ones that do not create
any controversy among the customers.

Edit: I used to work developing software for education. I am very aware of the
workplace dynamics that govern how these people do their jobs (gotta
understand that in order to actually build products that they can use).

Edit2: Ask any teacher. Rich suburb jobs are coveted because they pay well but
the customers are very demanding.

~~~
asark
> Ask any teacher. Rich suburb jobs are coveted because they pay well but the
> customers are very demanding.

In my mid-sized midwestern city, the notoriously-bad inner city schools pay
the best, by far. The pay's not why most teachers prefer to work in the better
suburban schools.

~~~
wil421
Not sure if it’s still the case but in Metro Atlanta some inner city districts
would pay off student loans if they worked for 5 years or something.

~~~
moate
That's common practice everywhere.

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stirfrykitty
Nothing at all wrong with using prison labor for something related to
supporting the public, particularly a school. Taxpayer money keeps them locked
up and by dint of this, we should get return on investment.

Here in Texas, prison labor is widely used, widely supported, and widely
liked. At my last job, we used prison labor often (move furniture, mow lawns,
warehouse work). The only prisoners in Texas allowed to be out working around
the public are low-grade, non-violent prisoners who also have less than 6
months to go on their sentence. Texas has many programs designed to help
prisoners re-enter the market as useful people: farm, mechanical, electronic,
etc.

Paying a debt to society should involve doing something for society, not just
sitting a cell for 23 hours a day. Texas prisons demand every able-bodied
prisoner work. They raise their own chickens, cows, horses, and garden food.
If you refuse to work, you go into segregation. Fair enough.

~~~
crooked-v
> If you refuse to work, you go into segregation.

I find this repugnant at best. A society that uses prisoners as a slave labor
force is a society that _always has a need for prisoners_. Keeping prisoners
_should_ be fundamentally unprofitable for society, so that there is always a
clear incentive to reduce recidivism rates and to decriminalize acts that
don't actually hurt people.

~~~
TheSoftwareGuy
I agree. And on top of that, it takes jobs away from people who are not in
prison, and gives it to people who likely can't negotiate a fair pay.

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mikeash
Reminder that prison slavery is explicitly allowed by the 13th amendment. We
really should amend it.

~~~
geezerjay
> Reminder that prison slavery

Aren't those prison jobs open only to volunteers among the prison population?

~~~
mikeash
It depends on the program. Some are voluntary. Some are “voluntary” with the
prisoner receiving time off their sentence in exchange, which is effectively
punishing them by imprisoning them longer if they refuse. Some are just
outright involuntary.

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komali2
The waffling on ethics demonstrated in the article doesn't seem as ambiguous
to me.

Is it ok to pay below minimum wage, if the prisoners are gaining useful
skills? No. It's not ok.

1\. We have no system of accountability measuring worth of useful skills
against amount under minimum wage the prisoner is getting paid. Is upholstery
worth 3$ less an hour, or 4$? Are they actually learning upholstery? How do we
know? Is upholstery actually a valuable skill? How do we know?

2\. We have not allowed other people to be paid less than minimum wage, why
prisoners? "Useful skills" is not a valid excuse (except for interns
sometimes, which I also disagree with). I don't agree that it should be
considered part of the punishment as the jury and judge had no say in the
amount under minimum wage the prisoner would be paid. There's no transparency
or accountability.

3\. It doesn't make economic sense. Why pay someone minimum wage to upholster,
when you can buy the work on the cheap from the prisons? The prisons have thus
evaded our imposed market controls and have an unfair advantage.

4\. Prisoners are humans and (generally) US citizens. It is not cool to
devalue them by paying them less.

~~~
mieseratte
> why prisoners?

Offset tax-burden incurred by their incarceration.

Private companies profiteering on prison labor is a different story.

> It is not cool to devalue them by paying them less.

They're prisoners. Society has already devalued them.

~~~
komali2
> Offset tax-burden incurred by their incarceration.

I don't agree that this is a valid justification. I pay taxes that go to
funding the department of education despite never "participating" in any
direct department of education activity. We don't make parents "offset" that
cost when they send kids to public school (no, we make the teachers do that by
forcing them to use their own money to buy chalk), why should we make a
prisoner suddenly be more responsible for a tax burden carried by all of
society? This is creating a "separate tax class," in my mind, which defeats
the purpose entirely. We all pay in, we all benefit, we all use what we
can/need/want of the system (minus the glaring deficiencies).

> They're prisoners. Society has already devalued them.

We agree. I think that it's bad to devalue them.

~~~
mieseratte
I think of it as simply charging them for room-and-board.

Perhaps it would appear less egregious if we paid them a fair wage and then
immediately made them pay most of it back?

> We agree. I think that it's bad to devalue them.

I never stated my opinion on that devaluation, and I don't believe we do
agree.

~~~
komali2
And if they refuse to work, and pay?

Does a jail in California require a greater rent than one in Alabama? What if
the minimum wage doesn't match, do we make the prisoner go into debt to
continue uh, their "lease?" Do they get better conditions if they pay more?
Can they just not work and leverage their pre-incarceration assets to pay? Now
that they're renters, do they get renter's protection under law? Via what
mechanism - who enforces? What if there's cockroaches, they're paying, do they
get to Lodge a complaint? Who decides the rent? What's to stop a prison
setting a rent price that requires 18 hours hard labor to match?

Why do you think it's acceptable to devalue a human? What measures do you
apply to that devaluing algorithm? In your mind, who is the most "valuable,"
and least "valuable" human?

~~~
mieseratte
> And if they refuse to work, and pay?

They find themselves without spare income and a constructive usage of their
time.

I do believe some prison systems, I want to say Angola has something along
these lines, use work-history as a test for certain privileges and or use
punitive measures. These are probably not quite productive, particularly the
punitive, but at the same time I think finding a way to incentive work is a
good thing.

To be honest, I can't quite understand why something as benign a wage
garnishment (tax?) against convicted criminals income is a controversial
subject. Is the current system optimal? No, prisoners could probably use a bit
of an increase in earnings such that they could establish a reasonable "nest
egg" for their return to the real world.

I'm sorry that I don't see this as a moralistic boolean as you appear to, but
levying penalties on a criminal is not wrong. Doing so in an overly punitive
manner that doesn't serve society's best interest is another matter.

~~~
crooked-v
> levying penalties on a criminal is not wrong

The penalties levied on the criminal are encapsulated in the prison sentence
itself. Anything beyond that has been added at the whim of the state, not by
the legal actions of a judge or jury.

~~~
mieseratte
> not by the legal actions of a judge or jury.

You're right, it's not by the legal actions of the judge and jury. It's by the
legal actions of the legislature and enforced by the executive branch.

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noetic_techy
Most prisoners want something to do than sit and do nothing, and are happy to
be paid even if its below minimum wage. We cant have them accumulating tons of
money while in prison with no outside bills, that's just not fair to the
taxpayer. You also don't want to incentive's going to prison as some sort of
decent alternative lifestyle on the taxpayers dime. They should be free to
sign up and work if they want to. On the other hand, there should be no
incentive to incarcerate simply for the labor pool. That's the part that's
amoral, not the labor.

Good intentions, bad outcomes.

~~~
crooked-v
> We cant have them accumulating tons of money while in prison with no outside
> bills, that's just not fair to the taxpayer.

Actually, as being able to leave prison with a small nest egg would almost
certainly reduce recidivism, it would probably be _more_ fair to the taxpayer
than the current system.

> You also don't want to incentive's going to prison as some sort of decent
> alternative lifestyle on the taxpayers dime.

Living in a cell while earning minimum wage isn't a "decent lifestyle", it's
merely slightly less awful than prisons in the US currently are.

~~~
ryanmercer
>Actually, as being able to leave prison with a small nest egg would almost
certainly reduce recidivism, it would probably be more fair to the taxpayer
than the current system.

Or it would give people bankrolls to go out and jumpstart their dealing, buy a
weapon for their next string of robberies, get spent at a bar/strip club the
first week out, get spent on sex workers after a few years of abstinence, used
to immediately buy drugs for personal use after forced sobriety.

Or just strengthen the gangs inside prisons "hey bubba, we know you've got to
have a few thousand dollars in that account, you'd better give it to us or you
might not live very long. Congrats you've got a new girlfriend her name is
Jane Smith, add her to your visitor list then transfer the funds to her on the
outside"

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gen3
I personally don't have any issues with prison labor as long as its optional
and safe (and done by the government. I don't know how I feel about private
prisons being able to accept outside contracts). I disagree with making
visitations paid.

Are there any reasons against using prison labor? It gives inmates something
to do and the ability to learn a new skill.

~~~
scarecrowbob
"Are there any reasons against using prison labor? It gives inmates something
to do and the ability to learn a new skill. "

There are lots of reasons that I find compelling-- I'm generally in favor of
the abolition of prisons. I'm also aware that there are plenty of people who
think I am a wingnut because I think that.

But even if you think prisons are a "good" thing, here is a reason that you
could find compelling for preventing prison labor from interacting with the
larger market:

it lowers the pay for other non-prison workers by throwing unpaid labor into
the labor pool.

If you have a chair factory and the local prison starts using very low paid
labor to produce chairs, how could you compete with that?

~~~
homonculus1
Okay, I'll bite-- what would you propose as an alternative to prisons? I'm
intrigued, and frankly amused, at the idea that there aren't individuals who
must be sequestered from society due to past behavior.

~~~
scarecrowbob
since you're actively laughing, I'll just tell you to google the wiki page for
prison abolition.

Surely you're creative enough to think of at least 3 or 4 other modes where we
sequester people "from society due to past behavior"... there are a lot of
other modalities than, say throwing people in an oubliette or conscripting
them into an army. Some are actually ethical (in my opinion, which is far from
the only legitiamte one), unlike prison in the US (also,, I do understand that
this is my opinion as well).

~~~
ryanmercer
So we should just let child rapists and murderers roam free to offend again,
with no consequences?

~~~
DanBC
> there are a lot of other modalities

Seems pretty clear. What about this did you not understand?

~~~
ryanmercer
I understood that exactly zero were provided that allowed them to not still
roam free. Forcing a child rapist or murder into the military is not a viable
option.

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40acres
Slavery by another name.

Think of all the perverse incentives that come along with the ability to
access prison labor -- an ever present need for a robust population (a.k.a
locking minorities up), lax regulation in terms of various labor laws and
general exploitation of labor without the need to pay market costs (wages,
healthcare, etc.).

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dang
Would you please review the site guidelines and follow the rules here? Your
last paragraph broke them badly.

I realize it stings to get downvoted but it happens to everyone—and the site
rules require you to have self-discipline about it and not lash back.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
stirfrykitty
Edited to remove last paragraph. Thank you for the info and link.

~~~
dang
Thanks! I've detached my reply from the original thread and collapsed it.

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tathougies
Did the student journalist also 'expose' the fact that prisoners are not free
to do as they please, given that they're -- you know -- criminals?

~~~
moate
People in their community were unaware of the fact that prison labor was being
used to complete school needs. These journalists wrote an article about it and
the community at large took notice of the issue.

What exactly is your point? That this (prison labor in this community being
used for this purpose) is common knowledge? Or that these kids didn't go far
enough?

Journos shined light on something, the community took issue with it and things
changed because of it. Sounds like the 4th estate is still alive and well on
this one my dude.

~~~
tathougies
My point is that being forced to do labor should fall under the whole
'deprived of liberty' part of being imprisoned. It should be common knowledge
and unsurprising that prisoners are not free. That's sorta the definition...

