

Miguel de Icaza: MS has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot (Google cache) - yesbabyyes
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:O6bmbLpdB1gJ:www.sdtimes.com/DOES_WINDOWS_COST_MICROSOFT_OPPORTUNITIES_/By_David_Worthington/About_NET_and_WINDOWS/34203+http://www.sdtimes.com/link/34203&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

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melling
I think he was being overly optimitic in the first place. Microsoft doesn't
want a cross platform system. They were just throwing out a bone with C#.
Having their tools be truly cross platform is not in their best business
interest, and no one blames them. Miguel should have understood this when he
started Mono.

~~~
yesbabyyes
And so people have been telling him all along. Last summer, RMS called him out
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=846221>) and he responded with calling
RMS a fear monger (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=864047>).

As usual, RMS was right, and there was no shortage of other people trying to
get de Icaza to see this, ever since he started with the Mono project.

It has indeed taken some time, but I'm happy that de Icaza finally seem to
have understood. It will be interesting to see which direction Mono will take
now, and where this fits in with the bigger picture of Novell's and
Microsoft's future.

~~~
DougBTX
I'm confused; has anything actually changed?

There doesn't seem to be any new legal threats, just quotes from Icaza
acknowledging that other people are scared of following his lead due to
existing patent fears. I don't see any hint that Icaza thinks the threat is
real, or threatens future development of Mono.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
"Microsoft has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot because of the constant
threat of patent infringement that they have cast on the ecosystem."

De Icaza is not acknowledging that some people are scared of patent
infringement. He's acknowledging that Microsoft itself has scared people away
through its constant threats.

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jbellis
I thought Miguel was Mr. "there is no legal threat, Mono is fine."

Example from 05:

"Every piece of software written today is likely going to infringe on someone
else's patent... Our strategy in dealing with patents in Mono is the same
strategy that any other software developer would take."

[http://ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/03/21/interviewmiguel....](http://ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/03/21/interviewmiguel.html)

~~~
tree_of_item
I'm pretty sure he is still saying that. The article only acknowledges the
fact that a lot of people think .NET is a legal minefield.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
Nonsense. Listen to what de Icaza says:

"Microsoft has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot because of the constant
threat of patent infringement that they have cast on the ecosystem"

He notably did NOT say:

"RMS has shot the .NET ecosystem in the foot because of the fears of patent
infringement that he has cast on the ecosystem."

De Icaza is clearly and explicitly laying blame at Microsoft's feet.

------
johns
Found the text of the article here:
<http://slated.org/does_windows_cost_microsoft_opportunities>

~~~
tzs
That site won't show me the article. Instead, it shows me a page complaining
about ISPs that use something called "Webwise", and tells me to change ISPs if
I want to see the site.

PS: my ISP is not using Webwise.

~~~
almost
I also get that message. That's kind of lame. My ISP has said they are
considering Webwise but are not currently using it, otherwise I'd be on a
different ISP. But that's none of that website's business, what a bunch of
dicks.

~~~
vetinari
Given that Webwise replaces original ads with ISP's ads, and the website gets
exactly nada from any clicks, I'd say that it is pretty much website's
business.

~~~
almost
I didn't know that was part of what it did. I still think that's a bit of a
stupid way of dealing with it (especially as my ISP isn't even using Webwise!)
but I can understand why they're concerned.

------
yesbabyyes
IT Wire writes about it here - apparently, SD Times has removed the article.

[http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-
sauce/37880-...](http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-
sauce/37880-microsoft-has-shot-net-ecosystem-in-foot-de-icaza)

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rbanffy
It's not surprising at all. Now that MS can point to Sun and say Java is
doomed (it's not, but they say whatever is convenient for them), why would
anyone think they would refrain themselves from taking the opportunity to
prevent the clueless companies they managed to scare away from Java from going
Mono instead of going Windows?

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code_duck
Sorry, but acting as if Microsoft is really interested in cross-platform
anything, and then being surprised when they're not, is similar to snuggling
with tigers (while your friends are very worried, asking you to get out of the
lair), and then being shocked after the tiger starts to eat your legs.

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TNO
_".NET creates value from a fantastic IDE, great mainstream languages, and
well-executed technologies like Silverlight, LINQ and the DLR [Dynamic
Language Runtime]."_

Silverlight is well executed? Is there any real uptake with the DLR outside
Silverlight? I think the answer to both is no, can anyone point to evidence
otherwise?

~~~
carson
I also wonder what "fantastic IDE" he is referring to. I constantly hear
people talk about visual studio being great but I don't believe they have ever
stepped outside their world to try some of the Java IDEs like IntelliJ IDEA.

~~~
yesbabyyes
I also wondered the same thing. Visual Studio is so bad, you have to actually
buy another piece of software (<http://www.jetbrains.com/resharper/>) for it
to start approaching "good", but it's still not close to "fantastic".

~~~
city41
Eh, it's not subpar either. I purposely didn't get Resharper because I hate
how intrusive it is. TestDriven.NET and ViEmu make VS2008 a passable IDE IMO.

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viraptor
Miguel posted the response/correction to this article -
<http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Mar-25.html>

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jgrant27
Why is he so surprised by classic M$ behavior ? Everyone knew this would
happen when .Net was first hyped back in 2000. It's possible that M$ marketing
sold him some BS story on the side and/or piled on some cash that clouded his
judgment.

If you dance to the tune, you must pay the piper ...

~~~
simonw
Are you seriously suggesting that a bribe would cause a developer of Miguel's
caliber to devote nearly a decade of his life to building something like Mono?

~~~
danudey
The ability of the human mind to rationalize anything if the rewards are great
enough has been proven time and again. If you give someone enough incentive,
and ease them into it slowly, a person will be able to justify anything to
themselves.

The more they're challenged, the more justifications and rationalizations
they'll come up with to defend their choices, and the more entrenched they'll
be in their new position.

------
tspiteri
More context for the actual quote, from Miguel de Icaza's own blog:

<http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Mar-25.html>

