

Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana - pitiburi
http://www.interfax.com/news.asp

======
JulianMorrison
He's structured his journey so that if the USA tries to force the plane to
Havana down in a US airport, it will create an international incident _with
Russia_. The USA could give two shits about antagonizing Cuba, but Russia is
still scary.

------
ck2
Traveling within a few hundreds miles of Gitmo. The movie of this is going to
be amazing.

It's like a world tour of US foreign failures under Bush's fourth term.

Can we start a whitehouse petition for Obama to give back his Nobel Prize?

------
Ihmahr
If he wants to escape US law enforcement he should try to go to Guantanamo
bay.

~~~
epo
s/escape US law enforcement/evade US law/ otherwise a rare touch of wit in
this debate.

------
jzwinck
This is slightly strange: the best onward flight to Havana is Aeroflot 150,
which departed Moscow SVO 30 minutes ago. This makes Snowden's layover in
Moscow likely to be over 20 hours, so one must wonder if he plans to stay
there a while.

[http://flightaware.com/live/findflight/UUEE/MUHA/](http://flightaware.com/live/findflight/UUEE/MUHA/)

If he will indeed fly HK-Moscow-Havana-Caracas without delay, he may finish
with flight V04101 on Monday at 23:50 Venezuela time (21:20 California time).

~~~
uvdiv
_Russia Today_ reports:

 _" Citing a source close to Snowden, Russian news agency Interfax reported
that the whistleblower’s final destination will be Venezuela with a transfer
in Havana, Cuba. He will reportedly be on flight SU150 to Havana, leaving
Moscow on Monday and then on flight V-04101 to Caracas."_

[http://rt.com/news/snowden-fly-moscow-
aeroflot-125/](http://rt.com/news/snowden-fly-moscow-aeroflot-125/)

------
rheide
Why do we know all this? If he had such a perfect plan why does the whole
world know where he's headed? Or maybe he's just really bad at keeping
secrets.

~~~
crocowhile
We know all this because this is a message from those countries. It's big
middle finger to the USA. They are saying: we know exactly where he is and
what he is doing but we are not going to stop him - because fuck you. If you
read the HK press release, this is so well stated actually "Snowden is going
to russia and we are not going to do anything about it. BTW, what about you
spying our embassy again?".

~~~
nayefc
We are all sick of the US acting like the big boss around the world. +1 to
Hong Kong, Russia and the rest giving it the big middle finger.

~~~
amorphid
My step-father told me a great story about the Cuban Missile Crisis. While
Washington and Moscow at each other's throats, he was on a US Navy warship
turning away freighters carrying missiles bound for Cuba. As his boat got
close to the Russian ships, the crews on either side would wave at each other
and take pictures. Regular ol' people to be friendly no matter their
background and are not representative of how their governments operate! Please
remember the difference between us Americans and the policy makers who
represent us :)

~~~
outside1234
we voted for the policy makers, so despite being friendly, its our fault.

~~~
cglace
It's not like the policy makers do what you vote them in to do anyway.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Looks like we've got our work cut out for us then.

------
codex
It's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian
itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela
as a "Hybrid Regime", and as the least democratic state in South America. His
countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor
record. I guess Snowden doesn't have a problem getting help from, or possibly
living under, an authoritarian régime, if it suits his interests. Not a
terribly principled man. Indeed, it would be better for the cause of domestic
surveillance were he to subject himself to the mega-press event that would be
a criminal trial in the U.S. Obviously the outcome would be much worse for him
in that case.

~~~
Ihmahr
> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly
> poor record.

How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?

~~~
wazoox
Honestly, China and Russia fare extremely bad. Cuba has been better these last
few years, but still is a single party undemocratic regime. Venezuela OTOH
seems quite reasonable.

~~~
pmelendez
"Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable."

Venezuelan here, and I can tell you that there is nothing reasonable about
Venezuela these days. The big scandal here is that USA citizens had been
monitored without a warrant but in Venezuela government agencies had been
doing that for years and without any shame.

They had shown in national TV, audio recordings of phone conversations just to
embarrass people that are no pro-government (nothing relating to felonies or
crimes, just to make fun of them). So it is ironic indeed.

~~~
wazoox
This doesn't seem worse than what's happening in the USA (monitoring... just
about everybody; keeping hundreds of political prisoners at Gitmo for 12 years
and counting) or Europe (UK government spying on... just everyone; or the
countless robberies and abuse of power of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and friends).

~~~
pmelendez
It is worse in the sense that the have no shame to hide it, at least in the US
was a secret. On the other hand, it is ironic to do what he did and then
escape to a country where freedom conditions are way worse.

------
jusben1369
I just loved that article a few days back about how brilliant he was for
picking HK.

~~~
adventured
It was brilliant. Hong Kong didn't immediately jump when the US Government
said to jump. It enabled Snowden to get away.

So let's take score. US military has over a hundred bases globally. The CIA
operates in over a hundred countries. The US intelligence budget is over $80
billion. The NSA can 'see' practically everything. And there goes Snowden,
escaping on a common commercial flight out of Hong Kong.

If anybody looks stupid, it's clearly the US Government.

~~~
rdouble
Or maybe the USG doesn't really think he's all that important.

~~~
vinceguidry
From watching CNN, the tone I get from the government is that they mainly want
him so they can send a message to other potential leakers that this sort of
behavior won't be tolerated.

Is he important enough to move heaven and earth for? I didn't get that. The
Obama administration needs to tread very carefully here, which is why, so long
as Snowden doesn't make a stupid mistake, which it looks like he won't, he'll
be able to squirrel himself away in Latin America. Obama, as head of state,
needs to at least make the appearance he's protecting the power and prestige
of the government. But he also needs to avoid looking like the terroristic
assholes we're at war with.

It's a very thin line, and I'm actually a little impressed with how he's
handling this.

------
Mahn
Is this a good idea for him anyway, to openly divulgue every step he takes? Or
did the information just _leak_?

~~~
lignuist
Since it is next to impossible to fly anonymously these days, being open about
his route might actually protect him.

------
crimsonzagar
One question that I saw floating around on Twitter is how could the US Gov
charge Snowden on espionage? _Espionage_ doesn't apply or does it?

Let's say you and I share some secret. When I pass that information you
trusted in me to a third party (who is interested in acquiring that
information) _secretly_ for some favor (cash/kind) only then it becomes a case
of espionage no?

When I share facts that were meant to be confidential according to you with
everyone through a public channel then how does it become a case of espionage?
It's only a revelation albeit a forced one.

How are we placed on this?

~~~
nknighthb
I haven't seen the indictment, but I assume he's been charged under one or
more provisions of 18 USC Ch. 37[1], otherwise known as the Espionage Act of
1917, which covers things like "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense
information".

Dictionaries are not the final arbiter of criminal law.

[1][http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-37](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-37)

Edit: Criminal complaint here:
[http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new...](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20news/US-
news-PDFs/Snowden-Complaint.pdf)

As I expected, there are two Espionage Act charges, specifically:

18 USC 793(d) Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information

18 USC 798(a)(3) Willful Communication of Classified Communications
Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person

~~~
wavefunction
"losing defense information"

Funny how none of the defense contractors that were hacked by the Chinese had
to face these charges. Some rules for some, other rules for the rest of us.

~~~
nknighthb
Try reading the actual statute. I even linked to it. It requires gross
negligence. Making wild assumptions does nothing to help our cause.

~~~
wavefunction
I guess I would consider exposing our next-generation fighter plans to the
Internet gross negligence. That's all I'm saying.

~~~
nknighthb
You can consider whatever you want to be gross negligence. The legal system,
on the other hand, would look to things like the exact circumstances, the
reasons things were done as they were, and whether and to what degree the
relevant actions deviated from relevant rules, regulations, and standard
practices in similar situations.

And unless you have all of that information, you can't possibly make that
judgement.

~~~
wavefunction
Like I said, it's just my opinion dude, so don't get all worked up. And if
you're not getting worked up, my apologies, but that's how your replies seem
to me.

For instance, it seems like common sense or widely accepted practice that
sensitive materials should be stored on machines that should be air-gapped,
and common knowledge informs legal decisions about what is gross negligence or
not.

For instance:

[http://legal-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Gross+negligen...](http://legal-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Gross+negligence)

"If one has borrowed or contracted to take care of another's property, then
gross negligence is the failure to actively take the care one would of his/her
own property."

Obviously this is open to interpretation and maybe the contractors responsible
leave their own private affairs open willy-nilly to the world, but I would
suppose they shouldn't have security clearance then...

~~~
nknighthb
How are you proposing that tens of thousands of people around the globe
working together on multi-billion-dollar projects perform their jobs
effectively if all the information is stored on isolated machines?

~~~
wavefunction
Geographic isolation, first, so no more "globe-spanning" workforce on
trillion-dollar projects. Then they can only work on a dedicated internal
network on machines they leave in the office, which media-isolation limited to
heavily controlled workstations so someone can't copy things over USB or burn
it to disk or upload it via a VPN tunnel.

That seems fair, considering the magnitude of the expenditures and the nature
of the work.

~~~
nknighthb
So, at this point, are you saying unspecified Lockheed employees should be
brought up on criminal charges for doing their work in a manner approved and
even _directed_ by the US government?

Or do you just not have any idea how government contracting works?

Edit: Perhaps I should be more clear. There are multiple companies working on
these projects. Some of them are in multiple countries. The US government has
awarded contracts for various parts of the F-35 project to these various
companies and told them to work together. The government knows this will
involve communicating between multiple sites around the world.

Even within the US, the government knows different companies are in different
states, and does not expect the entire workforce of every company to relocate
to one place. These contracts are awarded to geographically diverse companies
for political reasons, which you might not like, but that's how it is.

You can't charge people with a crime for executing on a government contract in
exactly the manner they are supposed to.

------
surfearth
I am curious to know how Snowden is financing his travel, lodgings and meals
at this point since, presumably, his access to US financial accounts has been
cut off. Does a warrant for arrest enable US authorities to place a hold on
his accounts?

Without a residency visa of some kind, it is difficult to open foreign
financial accounts abroad. Perhaps he has a bag full of cash although that may
create some issues of its own with various immigration authorities.

------
angerman
Why would one go to Venezuela in his situation? What am I missing here? Or is
that just a transit location towards Ecuador?

~~~
jzwinck
Venezuela's recent former president, Hugo Chávez, was broadly and openly
against the United States. His successor is relatively untested, having been
in office only two months. If Snowden stays in Venezuela, it could be an
interesting gauge of sentiment there. In any case, there's not much of a
working relationship between Venezuela and the US, which is desirable for
Snowden.

~~~
raverbashing
But the current government is _extremely fragile_ having against them both pro
and anti Chavez groups

~~~
thepumpkin1979
The problem is not whether the government is fragile or not, is whether Russia
will stand for Venezuela at the end. I'm Venezuelan and I can be sure that the
government has enough problems right now to be in War or anything like that
with USA. Russia would be a better place to stay.

~~~
pekk
You seriously think the US will start a WAR with Venezuela? On account of
Snowden?

------
pitiburi
It seems to me he had to board a plane quite in a hurry, and only after that
they looked for a proper destination. This story is just beginning.

~~~
declan
On the other hand, Edward Snowden didn't have much to do in the last month
except spend a few hours talk to reporters -- and plan just this.

If Venezuela is his final destination, going by way of Moscow and Cuba is
clever. It avoids going through any countries that would honor an INTERPOL Red
Notice or a "diffusion" notice for his detention.

~~~
pitiburi
In fact the source reported that “He chose such a complicated route in the
hope that he would not be arrested on the way to his final destination of
Venezuela,”

------
rdouble
I wonder who is funding all of this travel.

~~~
visarga
It's not so expensive.

~~~
rdouble
You're right, of course. It's only $450 to go direct from Hong Kong to Moscow
on Aeroflot. Perhaps I should reconsider my summer vacation plans. It costs
more to visit my parents in Minnesota. Ugh.

~~~
maneesh
On the downside you have to fly Aeroflot. I saw a flight attendant take a
passenger's finished water cup, and reuse it to serve to another passenger.
Classy.

~~~
dasil003
Could be a desirable feature, you know, to make the poisoning more difficult.

------
Thiz
So you fight for a better world seeking protection from the scum of the world?

Damn contradiction.

~~~
alan_cx
Who defines the scum of the earth? You? The so called leaders of the free
world? Anything non western or not allied to the US is scum?

If you are fighting against the hypocrisy and frankly tyranny of the west,
where would you go to be protected? All that's left is allies, like the UK who
will just hand you over, or as you put it, "scum". Whether you like it or not,
he has very little choice, the US has too many countries in its pocket.

You argument is down there with the other weasel language (hero, patriot,
anti-American, what have you got to hide, etc) deployed against whistle
blowers.

So, where you go to try to be safe? Or are you too "patriotic", or is it
scared, to ever criticize or expose the US?

You want "damn contradiction"? How about claiming to be leaders of the free
world while industrially mass spying on the so called free citizens you claim
to lead?

