
Apple Is Trying to Shut Down Hey - dsr12
https://hey.com/apple/
======
BonesJustice
As a user, I am generally in favor of Apple requiring the option to purchase
items and subscriptions through the App Store. I would never subscribe to, for
example, HBO NOW if I thought I’d have to go through HBO (owned by AT&T) in
order to unsubscribe. I want the guarantee of easy cancellation.

I am also fine with Apple collecting a modest fee for providing that service.
That fee should probably be somewhere in the 2-3% range. Demanding what
amounts to a 30% “introducer fee” is beyond absurd.

I also do not approve of how inconsistently Apple enforces their own rules.

~~~
Despegar
>I am also fine with Apple collecting a modest fee for providing that service.
That fee should probably be somewhere in the 2-3% range.

Apple's cut isn't for payment processing, even if developers insist that's all
they do. It's for access to their marketplace and their very large user base.

~~~
benhurmarcel
>It's for access to […] their very large user base

Pretty ironic for a company that sells you that you're not the product being
sold.

~~~
musicale
To me it seems more like paying for shelf space, and iTunes is probably a lot
cheaper than what you used to pay for physical shelf space. However, physical
games (and downloads) for the Switch (or other game systems) cost a lot more
than 99 cent games for the iPhone and iPad.

But Apple does sell paid search/advertising results.

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josuepeq
It seems to me there’s a double standard for some apps; Apple’s logic here is
ridiculous.

I can’t sign up for “Microsoft 365 Home“ or “Personal” inside of Microsoft
Word for iOS or any other Microsoft app, but Apple still approves them without
this mandate.

I think Basecamp is in the right here.

~~~
Despegar
That's not the case. You can sign up for Office 365 through IAP.

[https://twitter.com/sandofsky/status/1273010912484446209](https://twitter.com/sandofsky/status/1273010912484446209)

~~~
kyawzazaw
Seems like the Newton email app is not being enforced through the rule.

~~~
Despegar
It was for ProtonMail though. Inconsistency among app reviewers are going to
be a reality forever because they're human. They just need to have processes
for appealing it to someone higher up so mistakes can be corrected (which they
do).

[https://twitter.com/Abjurato/status/1273151302361649159](https://twitter.com/Abjurato/status/1273151302361649159)

~~~
cmsj
(in the case of Hey, Apple said it had reviewed the decision internally)

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jedieaston
This isn't awesome for Apple, PR wise, as next week they are expected to
announce the Mac moving to ARM. "Come on! Bring your apps! What do you mean
you don't want to invest in porting? What do you mean you're scared of our App
Store policies?"

~~~
google234123
You should port your apps because you think it's in your financial interest.
The fact that there's some drama with one random app breaking the rules
shouldn't factor.

~~~
kyawzazaw
It’s not just one app. Considering that it wants 15-30%, it really conflicts
with the financial interests part.

~~~
google234123
What store doesn't take 15-30%?

~~~
schwartzworld
what platform ONLY let's you install apps through it's official store?

~~~
google234123
Can anyone upload a app to the nintendo store?

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rgovostes
Apple always says, "Bashing our app review process in the press doesn't work."

It always works.

~~~
copperx
If they go through the trouble of stating it, it bugs them, so it is probably
very effective.

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nozepas
I'm not sure it's fair to say that 'Apple is trying to shut down hey' as it
sounds like that same situation hasn't affected any other apps before. Apple
is choosing to enforce their terms (which you can disagree with - i think
charging 30% is way too much) and that is about it. A lot of other apps have
faced the same situation before and only certain ones have managed to fall
into the specific 'readers' exemption.

I'm also a bit surprised that a team like the one I guess hey has, did not see
this coming, as it's pretty clear in the apple store terms and anybody with
some iOS and app store publishing experience would have been concerned about
that from day 1.

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randyrand
The rule is that you need to provide a way to buy it in-app. NOTE: It doesn't
have to be the same price.

"One recent example is Spotify, whose music app was $9.99 per month if you
subscribed on the web, but was $12.99 per month if you subscribed on iOS"

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SigmundA
I am torn. I like the in app payment and subscription systems easy to use and
manage and trustworthy, no run around if a later I want to cancel a
subscription, good stuff for the consumer.

I do think their 30% cut is excessive but they provide a lot a value with it,
not sure what number would be acceptable to developers in order to just use
it, part of me thinks they should just take no cut and make all their money by
dominating phone sales.

The real problem here is complicated rules that are inconsistently enforced,
and changing their minds later, that really screws over developers.

~~~
benhurmarcel
It would be trivial to solve by still requiring the IAP, but allowing
developers to inform the user that another price is available on the web.

You'd still get the convenience of subscribing through the app if you want it
(and paying more for it), but you'd be aware of the alternative. After all, if
Apple defends their policies as user protection, they shouldn't be opposed to
more information being given.

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pedrorijo91
maybe it's time for ios developers to (temporary) remove their apps from the
App Store as a protest?

Taking 30% without providing alternatives to install apps seems totally unfair

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achow
Just curious, is there anything that can prevent developers to charge 30% more
when in-app purchase is used for sign-up, with a nice little text around the
'Buy' button:

 _You would get 30% discount if you use our website for purchase. Here the
price includes Apple payment infrastructure cost._

I'm sure there would not be anything in Apple's guideline documents about
adding above kind of 'informative' content.

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holigot
So why does Fastmail work without any issues? Also a Mail-Service.

Same situation as hey.com but allowed.

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t-writescode
I'm not sure I believe the reasoning that the author describes - they're an
email app on top of their email service. That's all that was blocked; but, I
wonder if the problem here was marketing.

Assuming Hey followed standard email service protocol, users of Hey could
absolutely use the Apple Mail app to connect to their email servers, so it
shouldn't be about that, unless they marketed too hard, or something.

I probably can't use any POP server in the GMail app, for example.

I suspect they marketed too hard and too loudly about how they're totally not
email "and here, you can buy in" and that tipped someone in the review process
off and then a review that doesn't hold up to greater scrutiny was made. The
greater problem is probably the refusal to re-review it.

All the decrying about "going against one of Apple's businesses" seems like
punching at the air. Apple probably doesn't care whether people have an iCloud
email address or not.

~~~
nicwolff
> Assuming Hey followed standard email service protocol

They didn't. [https://hey.com/faqs/#can-i-check-my-hey-email-with-my-
exist...](https://hey.com/faqs/#can-i-check-my-hey-email-with-my-existing-
email-app)

~~~
t-writescode
Oh.

That makes Apple's stance more clear, then. Do they reference paying for
anything anywhere in the app? They might want to take a play out of Kindle's
book here. edit: if they haven't already.

~~~
mediaman
No, please refer to all the ink spilled on this already. They were very
careful to avoid references to paying anything in the app anywhere, or linking
to anywhere where payment could be made. This was always the rule previously.

It's not just HEY: other developers are now reporting that Apple's grip is
tightening and starting to enforce this change. You can no longer provide
access to any service without submitting to Apple's tax, unless (1) you are a
"reader" app or (2) you only sell to businesses (i.e., the user cannot pay for
the app).

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bdcravens
I know that DHH has always been a big Apple fan. Between the Apple credit card
drama and this, how long before he publicly moves to another platform?

While I have no idea if it's a significant number, I've heard a few anecdotal
accounts of how Rails was the cause for many to buy their first MacBook.

~~~
topicseed
I totally agree with DHH, Jason, and Hey here. While I may understand why
Apple would require them to use IaP if they allowed in-app payments, they
aren't in this case.

However, the pact of Basecamp's heads moving to Android and away from Apple's
ecosystem would surely be insignificant. Even PR-wise, it's a fun storm, but
it's still in a glass of water.

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bluesign
How is it different than gmail?

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EADGBE
These Apple tactics are nothing new. Why is DHH acting so surprised?

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dr_dshiv
Apple is a clear monopoly that does not provide consumer value. Monopolies are
bad for free markets. It should be broken up. Meaning, they should be forced
to allow non-apple markets on their hardware.

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xenospn
Great PR move by Hey. Not sure there's much more to it, tho. He's basically
saying "yeah, we broke the rules - but they're doing it too!", just like a
driver caught speeding tries to point out that red Corvette that the cops
didn't pull over 5 minutes ago.

~~~
benologist
Apple are bullies. By submitting your app you accept to be bullied. By using
their apps you accept to be bullied. By buying their hardware you accept to be
bullied. The rule they are breaking is not accepting their bullying.

That's why parents had to sue them to get refunds on fraudulent in-app
purchases as children were scammed and manipulated into tapping buy buttons
again and again. That's why Macbook Pro owners had to sue them again and again
to address product defects. That's why they're being investigated in both the
EU and US for abusing their platforms. They even officially had a rule for iOS
developers that threatened against talking to the press.

    
    
        If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps.
    

[https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer...](https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/)

~~~
rhencke
I thought you were paraphrasing, at first. I was surprised to find you were
quoting it verbatim.

~~~
musicale
Probably worth reading the whole 2014 page in context, as well as the current
(2020) version.

[https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/](https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/)

