
Why Standing Desks Are Overrated - mistersquid
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-desks-are-overrated.html
======
netcan
You know what the problem with problems is? I'll tell you the problem with
problems... :)

Imagine Jules. Jules likes to put her laptop on the counter and work standing
for an hour after lunch, while having her coffee. ...helps her digestion, or
neck or something..

Personally, I like standing and/or walking while working too. I think better,
it feels like. I like walking meetings, especially if we're going to be
scheming.

Anyway... Jules has a laptop, a counter and she can stand if she likes.

The problem (with problems) is that we^ can't live with "Jules likes X." X
must be a universal truth, transformational but as yet undiscovered...
something worthy of TedX.

In comes corporate and bureaucratic fact-finding, maybe some pseudo-science.
Occasionally actual science weighs in, but those assholes always seem to hedge
with fancy "maybes" and "more studies required." So, we create some corporate
truth, a way for Jules to stand up with official, legible backing.

It's the same HN debate we keep having about open offices. We can't keep it at
"I like/dislike this thing," thing must be quantifiably better.

Not all the decisions we make are factual.

^We means: HN, HR, OHS, furniture manufacturers, ergonomics auditors,
techchrunch...

~~~
closeparen
Businesses can't seem to admit that they're spending money based on employee
preference. There has to be a metrics-driven productivity or healthcare
spending argument to justify the budget.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I had this discussion with a book keeper about a fancy chair for an employee
once. The bookkeeper was arguing that this was more money than they had spent
on a chair before and so it needed to be justified.

I justified it by saying, "We pay this individual over $100,000 a year, they
are key to the following efforts, and the chair will last them for their
entire career with the company. Not to mention it costs about 1% what we paid
the recruiter who brought this person to us."

I made a similar argument at IBM (which got me into some trouble) which was
that revenue per employee was up significantly from the period when everyone
had an office, so why not have an office with some offices, some cubes, and
some open space and let people work in the space where they are most
productive? Total cost per employee was still going to be a lot less relative
to their revenue generation than it had been in the past.

Too often people focus too closely on the one time costs and not the overall
expense.

~~~
kaizendad
That's a really excellent point. If there's any risk that an employee would
leave to run after a cheap perk like a standing desk or a good chair, it's
just bad management to not spend that money.

------
projectramo
I think I see the problem here (with the comments).

The main problem is that in order to claim something is "overrated", you have
to have some idea of the "rating."

So perhaps most of the other commenters were enlightened and knew exactly what
the benefits were.

Not me. Like (perhaps) the author, I thought sitting is really, really bad for
you: for your heart, for your long term mobility, for your health. And that
standing will alleviate these issues.

Under my model, it wasn't just that moving was good and not moving was bad. I
thought that specifically sitting was the worst form of non-movement (over
lying down and standing).

I can't tell you where I got this but I had read a lot of "sitting is the new
smoking" type articles.

Now this author tells me that is not the case, and there was no proof of it
being the case.

This is news to me. I had the correct "rating" for this article and it turns
out I had "overrated" standing desks.

If you already know all this, then of course it was not "overrated" for you.

~~~
deanCommie
I think the premise of the article/implication is we went from "Sitting is the
new smoking" ("and therefore you should quit - by Standing more" => "Standing
is the new nicorette") to "Standing is the new Penicillin!

If you accept the premise, the headline and conclusion makes sense. Standing
ISN'T a replacement for exercise. There are ways to stand that will cause
independent medical issues in joints.

But, like you, I'm also dubious of the premise. While standing (or actually
adjustable) desks are all the rage, I don't see an obsession over the concept
approaching other overrated cults like crossfit, or keto.

------
WhompingWindows
This article is by a pediatrician, not a physical therapist or a subject
matter expert. The article basically consists of the author pointing to some
studies on the subject and concluding that there's not yet definitive,
decisive evidence as to the long-term benefits of standing desks. Anyone who
reads about standing desks knew that already. And, as someone who is known
amongst friends and colleagues for using one, I've had numerous cases of
people saying "Welp WhompingWindows, your standing desk is pointless, I saw a
buzzfeed article about how a single study from North Dakota State said they're
not great."

The title of this post and the the title of the article are not justified. The
author's take-home in the final paragraph is that standing is not exercise,
but standing desks may help those with back or neck pain and some people just
prefer it. So, really, there's no evidence here to support the "Overrated"
claim in the headline.

Like every post I see on standing desks, or anything with a
controversial/contentious set of studies/proponents, each writer can select
whichever set of studies from the vast array that conforms to their viewpoint.
Those studies that disagree with the final conclusion? Better point out
potential confounders, non-causal links, selection bias, etc. Drag out the
usual methodological suspects to invalidate an opinion you don't agree with.
It's easy to straw-man, though it's also easy to go to the discussion and just
copy the authors' own assessment of their studys' weaknesses.

This happens all the time in science like epidemiology, you're not an
epidemiologist if you haven't made a dozen complaints about an article's
methods before considering its ramifications. Even Einstein - despite the
evidence to the contrary, he could not accept some of the quantum-mechanical
conclusions that his work helped bring about.

~~~
JshWright
The "overrated" claim is that standing desks address the health concerns of
sitting too much (a claim that I have heard many, many times). There is no
evidence to support that claim. Your third paragraph accuses the author of
cherry-picking the studies. Is there an example of a study you feel they
should have included that supports your accusation?

The author is not claiming to be a subject matter expert. The fact that they
are a pediatrician is irrelevant. Their argument is well sourced, and "even" a
pediatrician is able to read and understand papers in adjacent medical fields.

Dr Carroll is also known for the Healthcare Triage YouTube channel, which has
numerous video explainers on topics like how to critically evaluate the
strength of studies, the dangers of cherry-picking data, etc.

~~~
3pt14159
There is some evidence[0], but people expect magic bullets, when the reality
is that small gains here and there are useful. The only magic bullets I've
found are cutting out refined sugar and heart pumping exercise at least 15
minutes a day, and ideally an hour.

If it matters, my back pain largely went away when I switched to working while
standing for three or four hours a day.

[0] E.g.,
[http://www.sjweh.fi/show_abstract.php?abstract_id=3740](http://www.sjweh.fi/show_abstract.php?abstract_id=3740)

~~~
ejstronge
The linked article makes no claims about health outcomes - instead, the
participants in that study reported feeling better, which contributes to the
reported improvement in health-adjusted life years.

In fact, there was no difference in BMI reported between the standard
condition and the intervention designed to decrease sitting time.

I don't know this literature much, but a separate analysis of the same study
may show improved cardiometabolic risk profiles in workers who are encouraged
to stand more often[1].

1\.
[https://insights.ovid.com/crossref?an=00005768-201803000-000...](https://insights.ovid.com/crossref?an=00005768-201803000-00015)

~~~
3pt14159
Sorry? I didn't mention BMI. I was referring to life year gains.

> Life years (LY) gained is a measure in health economics. It expresses the
> additional number of years of life that a person lives as a result of
> receiving a treatment.

And a 1% increase in LY after a 12 month intervention isn't a silver bullet,
but it's nothing to sneeze at.

------
robotmay
Well, obviously it's not a replacement for exercise. Was anyone ever claiming
that? Because I'd think it's fairly obvious that standing still doesn't
exactly burn the calories off. The key is moderation, like with everything.
Alternate between sitting and standing.

This past year I've started to get problems with my legs caused by sitting.
Exercise relieves it, but the aches return when I sit down again. I just spend
too much time sitting down (I work remotely as a programmer, and I'm also a
musician). Swapping to alternating sitting/standing makes a big difference in
this regard, and I had hoped to get a new desk 6 months ago, but due to house
purchase trouble (and the fact my flat is too small to swap out this desk);
I'm still stuck at my current desk. Hopefully it won't be too much longer now;
I do worry what permanent damage is happening. Sit/stand desks have an added
bonus of letting you adjust the height of the desk when sat down, which makes
a big difference.

Chair choice is a big part of it. I do think pretty much all office chairs are
designed wrong, in that they have a solid base and a cushion on top. Once you
bottom-out (hurr) the cushion, you're sat on a hard surface, and that's most
likely part of my issue. Aeron chairs are good in this regard, in that they're
a suspended mesh with no hard surface underneath.

I quite like sitting on the floor as well, and I'm hoping to accommodate for
that in my office design for my house. I think a wider variety of positions
could only help to spread the strain.

~~~
anonymousDan
Honestly there is absolutely no need to splash out on expensive standing
desks. I literally have two upturned plastic crates on my desk to support my
monitor, and then two stacks of books to support my keyboard and also my
mouse. Total cost about 5$. The important point is to make sure the height of
the boxes or whatever you use is adjusted to eye level and roughly elbow level
for the keyboard.

The only downside is if you want to switch between sitting and standing, but
frankly it's easier to just use a laptop for sitting for a little while until
you get used to standing for longer.

~~~
jseliger
Many people, myself included, want sit-stand desks that don't wobble. That's
where the cost comes in. [https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-
stand-de...](https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-desk-
review-two-years-with-a-motorized-desk)

~~~
asdff
I've never seen a stack of textbooks wobble. Although they might cost more
than the desk!

------
supergeek133
Haha. So I have a standing desk at work and at home, I do it because it keeps
me much more alert, and helps with my back not hurting after sitting for 8
hours.

I don't get how we always go back to debating the medical merits of this, when
why don't we just worry about what makes the employee more comfortable?
Expense wise, an average standing desk isn't terribly more expensive than a
normal desk OR some of the chairs companies are buying for people to be more
ergonomic.

~~~
JamesBarney
Because I constantly see arguments that sat "you should use a standing desk
because sitting is killing you". And not so many "you should try a standing
desk, some people think they're more comfortable".

~~~
asdff
Because people get bored reading articles with neutral tone. We are talking
about a choice of desk, after all. Extremes in language are much more
satisfying to read, consciously or not, and the ad money proves this.

------
bpicolo
Best strategy is just drinking enough that you need to hit the restroom with
reasonable frequency. You stay hydrated and get well-timed walking/headspace
breaks. Win-win.

~~~
malnourish
Anecdotal, but be wary. I drank a lot of water for a long time (120+ ounces a
day of water, plus whatever else I would drink). I was constantly thirsty and
was worried I had diabetes. It turns out I was drinking _too_ much water and
was flushing out valuable electrolytes from my system. Drinking less
paradoxically left me feeling quenched, but it took a doctor's visit and blood
work to resolve.

~~~
akvadrako
Indeed, you have to be careful not to overdose on water. More people die from
too much water than too little.

~~~
bpicolo
You don't need to be particularly careful. Apparently, the stats show the vast
majority of deaths from overhydration in normal individuals are the result of
water-drinking contests or exercise-related overhydration in ultramarathons
and similar

------
40acres
If you occasionally come by the lastest findings in research, as one is want
to do on HackerNews, and have also sat center court at a tennis match, you'll
realize that both experiences are pretty much the same.

I don't know if this is the replication crisis rearing it's head or not, but
being a casual observer of research is too much of a roller coaster for me to
try to "optimize" my life based on the latest findings.

In reality, it seems there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to a
general guide to live well: try to get a good night's sleep, abstain from
drugs if you can, eat healthy foods while maintaining a slight calorie
defecit, and get some exercise every once in a while. Outside of that it seems
like you're playing with margins.

------
mistersquid
Because I disagreed with the conclusions of the article, I submitted this
article to the HN community for assessment.

Many of the responses here call into question the article's apparent position,
especially as regards its inflammatory title, and these responses reflect my
own opinion and experience.

I expressed my objections as a comment to the article, reproduced here for
convenience. [0]

> I've been a long distance runner all my life, hovering at a 7:30 pace. In my
> mid 40s I began getting pain in my legs while running. Increasingly, I could
> not run more than 3 miles at a time without injuring. My pace went to 8:30
> or slower.

> Almost 2 years ago, I went to physical therapy and my doctor prescribed a
> standing desk. 1 hour standing; 1 hour sitting.

> Part of the problem according to my doctor is that my legs were tightening
> while sitting. Intermittently standing and stretching was not enough to
> offset what sitting was doing to my leg and back muscles.

> Since receiving a standing accessory at work and acquiring a motorized desk
> at home, my injuries have disappeared.

> Of course the stretching exercises I continue to do as directed by my
> physical therapist help. But stretching by itself did not work as I grew
> older.

> The combination of stretching exercise and alternating standing and sitting
> afforded by a standing desk has helped me recover from my injuries.

> My running pace has hit 7:20 and declining.

> Dismissing the potential benefit of standing desk as an expensive luxury is
> about as advisable as dismissing a doctor's visit as unnecessary use of
> health care.

[0] [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-
desks...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/upshot/why-standing-desks-are-
overrated.html#commentsContainer&permid=29452335)

~~~
jboy55
The article that you are commenting on specifically states that standing desks
aren't an improvement for cardiovascular health. The article also states that
standing desks can help ergonomic issues.

The article you posted shows that a standing desk can help ergonomic issues,
it doesn't mention cardiovascular health.

~~~
mistersquid
You are right that the article clarifies the lack of relationship between
cardiovascular health and standing.

My point is that for me the two are interlinked.

I could not run due to musculoskeletal issues from sitting. Being able to
alternate between standing and sitting addressed these issues and allowed me
to resume (improve) my running.

I don’t have enough expertise to evaluate if the studies cited by the author
account for the relatonship between ergonomics (musculoskeletal effects) and
cardiovascular health, but I do believe in my specific case the two are
inextricably linked.

EDIT: spelling

------
devinhelton
So does the New York Times owe an apology and a correction for this article?
"Sitting, it would seem, is an independent pathology. Being sedentary for nine
hours a day at the office is bad for your health whether you go home and watch
television afterward or hit the gym. It is bad whether you are morbidly obese
or marathon-runner thin. “Excessive sitting,” Dr. Levine says, “is a lethal
activity.”"
[https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t....](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.html)
And this one? "Too much time spent in a chair could shorten our lives, even if
we exercise" [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/well/move/get-up-stand-
up...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/well/move/get-up-stand-up.html)

I just find it disconcerting that the New York Times publishes an article like
this, without any acknowledgement that it has been pushing a different
conclusion for the past eight years. I get that that this article is from a
different author, but when people go to the New York Times, they are usually
trusting the overall institution and editorial controls more than the byline.
I also get that new studies comes in and the evidence changes -- but that
still requires some sort of acknowledgement that they were wrong before.

------
antoineMoPa
My main motivation for buying a standing desk would be saving my back from
constant pressure. CTRL+F "back" in this article tells me that the author did
not care at all about back problems and thought people bought standing desks
to exercise. I already exercise in my spare time and commutes.

~~~
lilactown
Yeah I can't understand this. I've been in constant lower back pain for years,
with it getting considerably worse over the last 12 months. All of the experts
have told me that it is some condition or other primarily caused by (and
definitely exacerbated by) sitting for extended periods of time.

I literally haven't sat in an office chair for longer than 20 mins for the
last 12 weeks and my back is so much for the better.

------
vemv
At work, I hate sitting (despite owning a couple very specific chairs that I'm
actually comfortably in) and I also hate standing.

Both seem to keep my body/mind tense - which is at odds with the deep
focusing/relaxation I need for working on creative solutions for long
stretches of time.

Very recently I discovered the wonders of beanbags, reclinable armchairs, and
so on. I might even try a hammock one day. All these mix well with wireless
keyboard/trackpad + a projector.

Looking forward to build my next-gen home office in this style (current
sofa/projector combo is just me squatting the office event room).

~~~
asdff
How do you deal with sleeping? Every time I sit somewhere with my head
supported, I begin to drift off. Doesn't matter if I slept in, or if I've had
two cups of coffee. If my head is stabilized, it's over for me.

~~~
vemv
Ha ha, sounds like a good problem to have :)

Can't help sadly, generally computers will leave me well awake for at least a
couple hours since the moment I'm done.

------
hmuskat
I suspect people aren't going to read the entire article or are going to be
put off by the rather aggressively-opinionated title.

I was expecting a more extreme conclusion than:

\- Sitting all day isn't great, but just sitting won't kill you

\- Standing all day isn't great, but just standing won't kill you

\- Standing isn't exercise

\- As long as you exercise and take breaks during the work day, it doesn't
really matter if you sit or stand

~~~
AstralStorm
The last point is not mentioned in the article at all.

~~~
jboy55
It is, "Too much sitting over the course of a day is not healthy — let’s be
clear. And as I’ve written before, exercise is the closest thing to a wonder
drug. Few things provide such a health benefit."

------
malnourish
Interesting. I'm always a fan of research challenging wisdom, although I'm not
sure who really thought standing alone was exercise. I've found greatly
improved comfort with my standing desk at work and I want to upgrade my home
desk once I move. I hope that the lack of evidence for specific health
improvements doesn't encourage companies to stop offering the desks.

~~~
AstralStorm
I'm waiting for the desks with integrated threadmill and bicycle.

Ooof, apparently no one wants sweaty and loud coworkers.

~~~
rootusrootus
Treadmill desks are already a Thing. Haven't seen one in a big corporate
office, yet, however.

~~~
PascLeRasc
Ironically, the NYT has one:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/t...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/treadmill-
desk-office.html)

~~~
malnourish
Maybe not ironic, since walking _is_ exercise :-)

------
madmax108
I do not see why it has to ever be an all or nothing when it comes to desks.
At work, we have adjustable desks, which can electronically be adjusted to
sitting or standing positions.

I alternate between sitting and standing every hour or so, combined with small
walks around office between shifting positions (say to the cafeteria or
washroom or the game room). When I get off my desk, I make it a point to focus
on some point far away to ensure my eyes get a break from simply staring at a
screen 2 feet away from me.

Combining this along with ensuring I consume enough water through the course
of the day (in AC environments, a very common cause of headaches/neckaches is
simply dehydration) means I can ensure that I get to operate productively
through the day.

Don't see why people get so paranoid about having to be in a single position
for 8 hours a day. The human body simply ain't made for that!

------
Lio
By chance the treadmill to go with my sit/stand desk arrived today.

Having used a height adjustable desk some years ago I'd sort of written them
off. I can't use one all day on its own, I find the blood just pools in my
legs after a while and I just want to sit down.

Equally though I've also suffered sciatica in the past which I attribute to
sitting for hours and hour before a log commute driving. It was agony. So to
break things up I've got my own treadmill desk for my home office.

I'm walking right now as I type this. I can feel that my heart rate is
definitely slightly raised but not so much I"m likely to start sweating. All
in all seems pretty good so far.

------
josefresco
My wife and I who both work at our desks, on computers for a significant
portion of the work day, use "ball chairs":
[https://www.gaiam.com/products/classic-balance-ball-
chair?va...](https://www.gaiam.com/products/classic-balance-ball-
chair?variant=32936592129)

These chairs have helped with my leg and foot numbness/cold issues. I couldn't
imagine working at a standing desk on days when my energy isn't 100% - which
as a father and business owner is like ... every day.

Note: I am in no way affiliated with Gaiam - but given how many clients ask
about my chair ... I should!

------
zhte415
I've seen a great connection between how happy people feel about their
workspaces and how happy they feel they are in are them, physically and
mentally.

When on-boarding in my first regular job, we received a couple of hours
training in how to adjust you chair from the health-and-safety manager.

Fantastic training, him spinning around a chair showing how everything can be
adapted, optimal eye, leg, waist, elbow height, the company gym instructor
visiting demonstrating cases of how necks can get bent forward just by looking
at a screen for a couple of years, the company doctor telling stories of the
results of not complaining about feeling uncomfortable, and the lawyer telling
us that this advice is useful coz we're giving it to you now, don't forget it.

I've worked in a lot of other places since. Some have been more
haphazard/freedom-giving in implementing a comfortable desk and I'm a fan of
that: Put a stack of paper under the monitor. Have a footrest instead of
adjusting the chair. Bring in a fishtank and have some (real) fish (not a
screensaver) swimming past you while you work, go to the gym for an hour when
there aren't meetings, lots of plants, do a standing desk on empty paper
boxes, bring a camping bed to store under your desk and take a nap after lunch
on it. Pretty free workspaces.

What I've seen work, and not work, and work better, and this is complete
anecdote: Colleagues that have the training to have been informed of best
practices, and have an idea of the optimal 'springiness' setting to set their
chair to have fun with their chair have freedom with their chair. Companies
that do that then then also allow their employees to choose how to setup their
environment are more productive, committed and a lot happier.

Open-office environments are actually OK for this. But not hot-desking ones.
Feeding your fish is 2-3 minutes of not staring at a screen or typing,
refreshment. Knowing the cleaner will throwaway a present for a colleague if
you're not cleaned your desk in the evening is a prison. Having plenty of
small meeting rooms available can provide peace and privacy.

And a quick nap on a colleague's borrowed camping bed when you're in for a
long day, is bliss.

------
mixmastamyk
I believe standing at times during the day is useful for the bones, and never
really considered it "exercise," at least not the strenuous kind.

One thing I notice though is that folks often push very expensive powered
desks that are not necessary. I've been using a relatively cheap drafting
table and tall chair with armrests for years and think it is a great way to
go. One can stand or sit during the day according to need.

------
TheBeardKing
>For convenience and comfort, it’s nice to have options if you have various
aches and pains — “Alternating standing and sitting while using a computer may
be useful for some people with low back or neck pain,” he said — but people
shouldn’t be under the illusion that they’re getting exercise.

Yeah and how do many people get to having back and neck pain? From sitting all
day! Talk to any spine specialist and they'll tell you that. Since I switched
to standing most of the day my pain is definitely reduced, and I know I'm
burning more calories because I often incorporate more movements than I would
typically do sitting. I stretch more often, do a yoga position, whatever, the
point is that incorporating movement is much more likely when you're already
standing.

------
simonsarris
I dislike standing desks but I sincerely recommend _trying_ the following:

Buy yoga pants (lulu mens pants look good enough that I wear them for almost
everything), take off your shoes, and sit like you used to sit when you were a
kid: Sit cross legged, sit on your legs, sit 'normally', and let yourself move
around and change positions and fidget naturally.

Over time I have found this much more intuitively comfortable than a sitting
or standing desk, and being able to fidget more easily helps me think, just
like going for walks helps me think. Point being: try stuff out! Maybe you'll
find something more comfortable than the status quo, faddish or not.

------
incadenza
This just in! Standing is not exercise. I’m glad we cleared up this hotly
debated topic.

------
charlesju
I use a standing desk and my primary purposes are to keep myself more alert
and to alleviate back pain. It is the single biggest improvement to back pain
that I have found.

As for health, like the article says, the most important things are keep up a
good diet (eat just enough, eat as many whole foods as possible, vary what you
eat) and exercise.

I also would like to recommend
[https://fluidstance.com/](https://fluidstance.com/) which is a board that
wobbles to go with a standing desk. This has further improved the benefits to
my back and general alertness while working.

------
MarkMc
Standing seems to burn about 50 calories per hour more than sitting [0] and
walking burns about 80 calories per mile [1]. So wouldn't a first
approximation for the benefits of standing an extra 5 hours per day be the
same as walking 3 miles per day?

[0]
[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532996](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532996)

[1] [https://www.verywellfit.com/walking-calories-burned-by-
miles...](https://www.verywellfit.com/walking-calories-burned-by-
miles-3887154)

------
jackconnor
Their results are that standing desks help with back problems, but don't
provide cardiovascular exercise - yea, not shit. This is exactly what everyone
thought, so I have no idea why this click-baity article exists.

Standing desks don't cure cancer, they don't stop baldness, and they won't do
anything for your allergies either, I'm shocked they didn't include these as
reasons standing desks are "overrated".

------
nimbius
Coming from a blue collar job (I work as an engine repair mechanic) ive never
understood standing desks. most of the articles are right up there with either
crystal chakra magic or "our ancesters were healthier!" crap.

I stand 6-8 hours a day. so do most of my coworkers. Simple observation of a
chubby mechanic or a fat construction worker will tell you that the "standing
desks are healthier" line is complete bullshit.

~~~
tuukkah
Umm, sitting kills. The idea is that a standing desk can let you live longer
whatever your body formation.

~~~
dugdun
I don't think that it's sitting that kills. I think it's more the fact that
you are less active. You can have the same problem standing all day without
moving around.

~~~
tuukkah
So either sitting kills by itself and standing up is enough to avoid it, or
sitting kills by taking time from being physically active and it's not enough
to stand up (which also takes time from being physically active).

Here's some brand-new research based on 1000 people wearing accelerometers
24/7:
[http://epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_isbn_978-952-61-2928-0/i...](http://epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_isbn_978-952-61-2928-0/index_en.html)

 _Sedentary behaviour, physical activity, and risk of coronary artery disease
and diabetes mellitus_

 _" From the accelerometer-derived parameters of SB [sedentary behaviour], a
higher number of daily SB bouts lasting over 10 minutes was the strongest
predictor of a high CVD [cardiovascular disease] risk."_

------
sbhn
I stand 3 hours a day on the busses and trains trying to keep balance to and
from work, I can’t wait to sit down when I finally get the chance.

------
damontal
I feel like I problem solve better sitting. For meetings I tend to stand but
if I’m coding anything nontrivial I sit.

------
dqpb
> _“Alternating standing and sitting while using a computer may be useful for
> some people with low back or neck pain,” he said — but people shouldn’t be
> under the illusion that they’re getting exercise._

Nobody is under the illusion that standing is exercise. What a pointless
article.

------
dana321
There are benefits to standing, for one is increased strength in the legs -
just try it, it _is_ a workout and you do burn more calories standing up than
sitting down.

Increased cognitive ability is another benefit, due to the increased blood
flow.

I think alternating is great, its what i tend to do.

~~~
AstralStorm
1) Show me that study. Also, varicose veins suggest otherwise. Good muscle
tone helps to prevent them. Apparently standing does not provide the right
impulse. Yes, you will burn slightly more calories but at what cost?

2) This is even more out there and suspicious claim. Varicose veins form out
of impaired blood flow, not improved.

3) Do you mean situps? I heard they are an actual exercise.

------
objektif
I actually think standing desks are horrible for knees. So I would agree with
the assertion to a certain degree. I have tried it for 4 months and only thing
I gained out of it is knee pain.

------
passwordreset
I have a standing desk. I've heard about how stupid standing desks were, so I
went out and bought a highchair. Now I can sit at my desk like a normal
person. Thanks, New York Times!

------
sudovancity
I mean, it's ok for people to like something and others to not like it. Some
people like to stand and some people don't.

------
swerveonem
Standing desks might be but adjustable desks are not. Who wants their neck at
the same angle all day everyday for years?

------
apl002
i just like them cause they are a good change of pace for comfort. If im
working on code for 5+ hrs, my butt/back gets sore from sitting for so long.
Switching to standing for an hour or so allows me to grind longer. In no way
do i think that im somehow being healthier for standing

------
PascLeRasc
In case anyone wants a different position on standing desks from another
NYTer:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/t...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/technology/personaltech/treadmill-
desk-office.html)

~~~
jboy55
That's a treadmill desk...

I really think this comment section is just people reading the article as
"Standing desks are bad" and posting any positive thing about standing desks.

The article is, "Standing desks, by themselves, (no treadmill), provide no
cardiovascular benefit. In terms of cardiovascular health, sitting maybe a
marker not a cause."

That is, people who sit 12 hours a day on average, typically don't exercise
and have poor cardio health. Simply standing instead of sitting won't help
that, you have to exercise.

------
sytelus
The article is quite misleading IMO. It cites bunch of studies which directly
conflicts with headline and the author just brushes them off. For other
studies which mildly agrees with title, author overblows its important. For
example, one study says:

 _standing or walking for more than six hours a day at work was associated
with a doubled or tripled risk of needing surgery_

Note that it's _6 hours_ of standing! Also, important to remember that these
are correlation studies meaning that surveyors (I refuse to call them
"scientists") sends outs surveys and tries to find statistical correlation.
This is much different than real scientific studies, i.e., causal studies,
where you try to understand cause and effect of your hypothesis.

One of the major issue in sitting all day is pasture management which causes
back pain issues. So it's not about getting cardio exercise (that would be
silly) but avoiding long term back pain issues. Also, sit-and-stand desk
allows you to adjust height easily which is again important through out the
day.

------
anon2775
Standing desks should come with anti-fatigue mats like most restaurants have.

------
PhrosTT
Sitting shortens your hip flexors over time. This causes lower back pain.

------
gunnarde
"Sit-stand desks are not exactly inexpensive, but like many things in life,
they’re fine if you like them. And if it helps alleviate some back and neck
pain, so much the better. It’s just that most people probably don’t need
them." TL:DR

------
radarthreat
I'm guessing this article was funded by Big Chair.

------
nunez
TL;DR: Sitting too long is bad. Standing too long is bad. Find a balance!

------
appsonify
Oh man...these type of overreaching opinions is bound to be controversial.

I bought a standing desk because my ass hurts from sitting down too long and I
don't have a lot of flesh down there. I have to use a cushion and eventually
that also puts pressure on my back and my ass still hurts.

So I bought a manually operated standing desk on Amazon.ca in order to not
hurt my ass from sitting down too long.

Also not good for your prostate health to be sitting down for hours at a time.

But please convince me why I shouldn't stop the pain in the ass.

------
choot
I work remote. And i lay in bed most of the times.

Somtimes, I am laying in the bathtub with a coke and completing projects on my
Dell XPS16 running Debian.

I never felt the need to sit or stand.

------
khalll
Overrated? Just plain stupid.

------
sigfubar
The author's bigotry is showing in spades. I don't care if standing all day
long is "associated with lower socioeconomic status". Standing makes me feel
better, improves my posture, and takes away all the literal physical pains
associated with sitting. If this makes me similar to a person working in
retail, so be it. Am I supposed to be ashamed of our shared fundamental
humanity too?

~~~
yeutterg
"Standing makes me feel better, improves my posture, and takes away all the
literal physical pains associated with sitting."

This. After using a standing desk for a few years, I only occasionally want to
sit (like 5% of the time). And I generally regret it after about 20-30
minutes.

I see a lot of standing desk users with improper monitor or keyboard height,
and I think this hurts standing desks' reputation. If these are not correct,
you will get neck and/or lower back pain if you use the desk long enough.

Unfortunately, it can be pricey to have a workstation that is ergonomically
correct for you, because the keyboard to monitor height distance is much
greater in a standing configuration vs. sitting. Convertible options tend to
be expensive.

Having a cushy floor mat also makes a huge difference.

~~~
rootusrootus
I think a lot of sitting desk users also have improper monitor or keyboard
height, and many (most, anecdotally) people have atrocious posture. This
probably explains a lot of why sitting has a negative reputation.

Personally, standing all day makes my feet tired & sore. I much prefer a well
set-up sitting workstation and regular walking breaks.

