
DEA agents conduct surprise searches of Amtrak passengers - eplanit
https://theintercept.com/2019/08/31/dea-amtrak-passenger-search-albuquerque/
======
DebtDeflation
>It’s legal for Perry to search people without probable cause, a warrant, or a
dog because travelers supposedly realize that they have the right to decline
to submit to his searches.

We need to extend the Miranda Warning to circumstances such as these. "You are
not under arrest and you have the right to refuse a search. If you consent to
a search, and something illegal is found, it can be admitted into evidence
against you in court." If every interaction started with those words, you'd
see a lot more people exercising their right to refuse.

~~~
wl
Miranda warnings don't seem to help much in practice. Pretty much everyone who
is given one waives their rights and speaks anyway.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Is that true?

~~~
markbnj
The prevalence of advice videos from criminal defense attorneys advising
citizens in contact with the police to simply shut their mouths would at least
anecdotally support this statement.

~~~
Scoundreller
Top-of-head thinking? Défense lawyers probably remember really well the cases
that could have been a lot easier to win.

Just as doctors tend to prescribe what worked last time - easier to do what’s
at the top of your mind than critically appraise the evidence.

~~~
kyshoc
It goes deeper than anecdotal "I wish my client hadn't said anything", there
are concrete reasons for this advice.

For example, according to rules of evidence, any exculpatory statements you
make to police are hearsay and therefore cannot be mentioned in a trial. The
police _can_, however, try to use that information against you and then use
information derived from your original statement at trial.

There's a pretty popular lecture[0] on this. It covers a lot of edge cases and
common arguments against "don't talk to the police".

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE)

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coldcode
Just say no. In fact these agents have no authority to force you to submit to
a search without a warrant, probable cause or a dog. Most people either don't
understand that, or fear the consequences. What can happen of course is
intimidation and causing you to miss the train entirely. Papers, please, may
be a stereotype but one agents like these heartily believe in.

~~~
empath75
The dog will alert on who they want it to alert on.

~~~
yardie
I've had the fuzz try "the dog" on me in the past. As a living creature the
dog is rarely where they need it to be. Knowing my rights, and also knowing
I'm not holding, I just repeat over and over again, "am I being detained. Am I
free to go?" That usually clues them in I know the law just enough to cause
them problems and they go away.

Typically the only probable cause they have is their own racist bias and once
I point that out, a hit dog will holler.

~~~
imglorp
I've always wondered how dog hits are seen by courts as different from officer
testimony. Of course they're well trained and qualified and accurate, one
would hope. But they can also get a subtle cue off the handler to simply sit
because they've learned it's expected. So back in court, you're back to
officer testimony that they did or didn't cue the dog to show a hit; it might
even be subconscious. If that's the case, the dog isn't neutral and might as
well be skipped as theater.

~~~
allset_
They're quite inaccurate in fact. They barely have a 50% ratio.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
watch/wp/2015/08/04/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
watch/wp/2015/08/04/federal-appeals-court-drug-dog-thats-barely-more-accurate-
than-a-coin-flip-is-good-enough/)

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appleshore
Amtrak’s a perfect representation of everything wrong with the US. A slow,
unreliable train. Seems always delayed hours without being informed of why or
how long. Receives almost $2 billion in federal subsidies. Bathrooms are
dirty. And then you’re pressured searched by a DEA agent whose already scanned
the passenger logs looking for targets....

~~~
mattkrause
I took Amtrak regularly along the East Coast. Door-to-door was both faster and
cheaper than flying, plus the experience was a lot more pleasant.

Less travelled routes have a chicken-and-egg problem: nobody uses them, so
they’re not a priority, so they get even worse. NYC to Montreal, for example,
should be 2x as fast as it currently is....

~~~
13of40
They have Amtrak service along the west coast, and I've taken the Seattle to
Eugene and Seattle to Vancouver trains. I was unimpressed, because the maximum
speed is about 80 miles per hour, like most of I-5 (edit: I mean that's
effectively how fast people drive, not the speed limit), and the fare is so
high you could actually rent a car for a few days instead, especially if
there's more than one of you traveling. (Seattle -> Eugene, a 4 hour trip, one
way starts at $78 according to their website.) I've always suspected it was a
critical mass thing, and if more people used the service the price might go
down, but for a self-interested individual, it just doesn't make sense right
now.

~~~
leetcrew
> I've always suspected it was a critical mass thing, and if more people used
> the service the price might go down, but for a self-interested individual,
> it just doesn't make sense right now.

personally I find traveling on amtrak to be a lovely experience. even on the
NE regional I usually get a whole row to myself if it isn't a holiday weekend.
of course, this is probably why it's so expensive. on the other hand if the
ridership went up, it wouldn't be such a nice experience anymore.

~~~
13of40
Oh, don't get me wrong: I like trains in general, and I've got many fond
memories of train adventures in Europe and Asia. Amtrak can be pleasant if
you're just touring around. If you're looking for a serious mode of travel,
though, the train system on the west coast is a joke. It's in a weird spot
where if you care about money you can take a bus and if you care about
convenience you can take a plane, but if you don't care about either...take
Amtrak?

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AndyMcConachie
I got fucked with by a plains clothes cop on an Amtrak once. He flashed a
badge at me that I didn't even have time to read. Then he produced a bag and
asked me if it was mine. It wasn't and I told him so.

He left.

He came back not 5 minutes more and claimed that it was my bag, basically
insuating that I was lying. I told him again, this time rudely, that it was
not my bag and to leave me and my wife alone. He looked pissed and left us
alone.

Most people who travel Amtrak, especially the long hauls, don't have as much
money as people flying. I'd like to see the DEA try these tactics with rich
people and see how far they get.

~~~
leetcrew
> Most people who travel Amtrak, especially the long hauls, don't have as much
> money as people flying.

why is this the case? I've only price shopped on the east coast, but I usually
find that it's actually cheaper by plane than by train. sad because I am
usually trying to justify taking the train.

~~~
stevenjgarner
I took the Amtrak California Zephyr from Reno, NV, to Ottumwa, IA a week ago -
$118 coach seat or $936 for a roomette vs $547 flying - 39 hrs train time vs
24 hrs driving (which I do several times a year). Beautiful scenery and lots
of time to think, write and program. No wifi but _git push origin master_ when
I finally got online worked out just fine. "Most people ... don't have as much
money as people flying" probably true for coach, but not at all true for the
roomette cars. The dining car is where the two demographics meet.

~~~
leetcrew
I do have a thing for trains, but 39 hours in a coach seat sounds pretty rough
regardless of the scenery. I can see why there would be a downward pressure on
price for such a journey.

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wallace_f
I don't know what motivates someone to be so psychopathically obsessed with
invading other people's privacy, stealing their property, and even ruining
their lives.

~~~
joshuaheard
Catching criminals?

~~~
allset_
Then do that, with actual targeted investigations. This is just harassment and
a fishing expedition.

~~~
joshuaheard
In sales, it is known as "cold calling".

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atlasunshrugged
I recently took part of this route (DC to Chicago then Chicago all the way to
LA) in December of 2018, the people were really fascinating. Lots of folks,
especially older ones, who just didn't like taking flights and weren't up to
driving cross country and then some who were train enthusiasts and just loved
trains and then a few families. It's a real shame that they're doing searches
like this, it sounds pretty sketchy.

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frickinLasers
"An email uncovered in a federal drug trafficking case from last year showed
that Greyhound tried to kick the DEA out of its Albuquerque station. [...]
Greyhound declined to comment about the email or what has happened since."

Sounds like someone has been gagged by a National Security Letter.

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wayanon
I would find this distressing to see as a tourist let alone a US citizen. Why
not go the whole hog and have pre-boarding searches like airports?

~~~
salawat
Because travelling is increasingly becoming synonymous to being up to
something?

This is what drives me mad. This is such a violation of every principle of
good hospitality. By delegating responsibility for one's safety away from
oneself to the responsibility of the purveyors (or overseers) of the mode of
transportation, we all end up being treated as threats until proven otherwise.

It is such a tenuous balance. Excessive restriction of the conditions under
which hospitality is granted leads to a breakdown of social reciprocity,
intensification of in-group mentality, and alienation of the outsider. This
stratifies and jeopardizes the ability of these myriad in-groups to coexist
and transact peaceably, detracting from the possibility of maintaining any
semblance of a national/international unity, or at least peaceful polity.

It's diplomacy, in essence, at smaller and more localized scales. Most
societies have carveouts for providing for the need of the outsider, because
tit-for-tat is such an easy state of affairs to end up in. Mind, the tit-for-
tat part is implicit, not explicit, as most text on hospitality emphasizes the
duty of the host to care without concern for [individual] reciprocity.
Collectively speaking however, the way one culture recieves another does have
an impact on overall relations between polities.

I just wish there was greater emphasis placed on this. I get it, lofty ideals
tend to be the first to get binned, but sometimes the ideal is worth
tolerating a greater degree of perceived immediate risk in order to facilitate
a much larger payoff in terms of unity of action across non-emphasized in-
groups.

Sometimes it's the difference between all travelers looking at and being
suspicious of each other in transit, perpetuating macro-level conflict into
every strata of everyday life, and a group of strangers coming together, and
momentarily sharing the unique opportunity of traveling together, and being
able to freely exchange in an environment of goodwill and camaraderie, and to
be assured of unity of action through dissolution of fear at having to react
to defuse violence on behalf of the traveling group.

Dissolution of macro-scale tension must begin at the bottom Of the social
pyramid. Trying to work from the top down is a fool's errand.

~~~
lsc
Driving is largely unregulated, so I doubt this is about preventing travel.

~~~
dredmorbius
Unless pigmented.

------
mnm1
And that's how you make stealing legal. Perry is a thief, plain and simple,
not to mention the many other derogatory terms that could describe this
subhuman shitstain. He is the embodiment of the American idea of creating a
problem where one doesn't exist and then "solving" it for profit. This is
known as the war on drugs. It's extremely profitable not only in terms of
money but also in terms of creating fear used for societal control, especially
for controlling minorities. Ruining people's lives and society to make a buck.
I hope it really does get dangerous for this scumbag. The world would be
better off without him and all the rest of the people like him.

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BrianHenryIE
The first time I traveled Amtrak, as a tourist in 2013, I was shocked to be
asked for photo id just to buy my ticket. It seems a bit "Papers, please".

------
kburman
Offtopic: What a strange layout this website has. No offense, Failed to make
any sense to me.

------
Keverw
Interesting about one-way itineraries... I always wanted to go on a cross
country train trip, the only time I've ever been on trains was at theme parks
that just do a loop. No Wi-Fi though sounds a downer though. Maybe a time to
read an ebook or edit vacation videos... My dream if ever making it big in
tech is to retire early and travel full time, by train, cruise ship, by plane
then buy an rv when ready to settle down some and slow down a bit with a house
on wheels... Kinda interested in all styles of travel. So few years of
traveling full time with just a suitcase and backpack, then buy my dream RV.
Which be nice, be my own little apartment on wheels, can cook instead of
eating out all the time, but still minimalism.

I think buying a big house, staying in the same area 98% of the year if lucky
enough to even go on a vacation and collecting junk would be boring. I know
some couples have so much junk, they argue about it and have cluttered houses.
Then people load everything on credit, which if used responsibly and paid back
monthly you get reward points, but some people just let it get to them. I
rather have more experiences than collecting things, and the things I have
should have a purpose. Then even if you pay off your house in full, you don't
really own it. If the state decides to build a new highway or high speed rail,
they'll just knock it down. At least with a RV or Tiny house on wheels you can
move it. Someone with a $250,000 RV probably owns it more than someone living
in a 5 million dollar mansion, yet they are more homeless than someone living
in a $100,000 house.

So much to see and do, people dream about this all the time but money is a
stopper sadly. There's a guy who owns his own business and decided to just
cruise non stop, makes him happy and don't have much to take care of but he
stays on the same ship about 6 months at a time booked back to back so he can
have the same stateroom, I rather check out different ships and itineraries
but everyone has different travel styles and wants. I know they have routes
between Seattle and California, so maybe if booked 2 cruises with time to
spare in between taking a train instead of a plane would be more scenic and a
different experience, something to try at least once in a lifetime.

Also, I heard they cut the diner car out, and it's more airline type food now
in an effort to save money. There's even a site called Amtrak Vacations too,
so I figured one-way trips would be more common... People might fly and ride
the train and fly back home or whatever next if they are a nomad.

It makes me sad people don't know their rights, even corporate media too... I
seen recently a news story where they blur the video of the police, which I'm
surprised since they are public officials. I feel like our founding fathers
are tossing in their graves at what America is turning into, but I doubt any
other country is much better anyways since some places are even worse.

I know officials get sworn in to uphold the constitution, but I don't think
they even read it... Just raise their hand and repeat what they are told to be
sworn in. Should quiz them on it.

Also surprised they don't search bags beforehand or tickets before getting
on... I always figured it'd be similar to an airport. I know I heard a
conductor goes seat to seat checking tickets at random, so seems a bit
backward to me. I figured they would check everything before you board.

Then also traveling solo is a red flag too I heard which can get you sent to
secondary, so if you aren't married or have a boyfriend or girlfriend that can
slow you down... but I seen on the news solo travel is more popular than it is
but I guess customs assumes a person is a drug smuggler, but I've heard it
happens to woman more for some reason...

It seems like people who think for themselves and have alternative lifestyles
such as digital nomads or even retired couples who RV get hassled more too,
maybe due to stereotypes or profiling... Not a criminal, but just because you
don't fit a profile you can be treated like one. Like I know in some states,
nomads such as full-time RVers can't get a driver license or state ID unless
they lie about living with someone else. Michigan is one I know of off the top
of my head. So most people head to South Dakota and fill out an affidavit they
are a full-time traveler, seems like that's making the state a bunch of money
for catering to this niche. Seen a story about a couple who sold their house
and got threatened by the Michigan DMV for not owning a house anymore because
they used a mail forwarder. South Dakota and Texas allow mail forwarders.
Florida does too depending on the county. One says if it's possible to live
there even if don't park their full time, and not required to even lease a
spot 365 days a year just possible to spend a night and it's good enough for
them, so there's a campground that forwards mail and its allowed by the
county. While another county, Clay County has interpreted something different
and tried to take away voting rights recently. So If you live in a RV, boat or
living out of a suitcase traveling you are basically a homeless person with
money, so some states will discriminate against you. But then again by
Michigan discriminating against them, they saved on taxes on their investment
income by switching states so it ended up working out for them... I think
maybe some states are tougher on residency requirements maybe because they
have more social programs too, and you being a resident is a liability to
them.

