
Ask HN: Chances for Restarting a Career in CS @ 30+ ? - d33d33
i studied literature and philosophy @ a german university. after my master, i joined an it-startup - and as so many of them, we failed (but i don&#x27;t regret learning so much within that time). even though, i got some interviews within the last ~7 months, i still can&#x27;t find an avg. job to be able to finance a small room + living expenses.<p>now, i&#x27;m 31. i did some cs certificates offered by edx&#x2F;coursera within the last 12 months (MitX: Introduction to Computer Science and Programming Using Python, Introduction to Computational Thinking and Data Science; BerkelyX: Engineering Software as a Service; HarvardX: CS50...).<p>and i&#x27;m totally addicted to coding - even when i notice my lack of math skills. i spent the nights trying to understand cs concepts and couldn&#x27;t sleep or stop before i found a solution (sometimes i did not sleep the whole day).<p>sorry for the long prologue, but i thinks it&#x27;s important for my main question:<p>do you think, it makes sense to study computer science at the age of 31? or is it too late?
do you have some experience with that? 
or do you work at a human resources department and can tell me if there is a chance for those kind of people?
======
uptownJimmy
I went to tech school at age 41, after owning/managing in the restaurant
business my entire adult life. I worked full time and studied full time and
helped raise my little 2-year-old boy. I got my degree this spring.

Now I'm 44 and working my first job as a .NET developer, and I've never been
happier. I have encountered no resistance to my age, quite the contrary: I've
never felt more welcomed and encouraged than I do now in the coding community.

IT is changing rapidly, and you hear that all the time. But it's not just
changing technically, it's also changing socially. That's very important to
remember. If you are smart, and if you have the "knack", and if you work your
butt off, and if you have a modicum of charm and social polish and confidence,
you will have no trouble getting a job.

The world of coding is not monolithic. It is not homogeneous. To put it
tritely, it is amazing how diverse a room full of coders can be....

~~~
marktangotango
I got my BS in CS (US) from mid tier state school at the age of 38. I think
getting a degree later in life is an advantage, people see my graduation date
on my resume and assume I'm younger than I am. Some people say I look younger
as well.

I'm a team lead now, and if anything, I see younger devs as a liability. IMO
you gain a certain level of pragmatism and persistance from working on large
(crappy) code bases for a few years. When faced with challenging bugs, I see
some younger devs giving up too quickly.

It takes time to develop the 'large code base skill', and I'd rather not solve
you're bugs while you do. Especially if you're telling me how great language X
is, and we should move to it.

~~~
clubhi
Maybe you actually should move to language X.

------
roel_v
You talk about 'career in CS' but what you describe is 'being a programmer'.

'Career in CS' = MSc then PhD then postdoc in CS, making you ~ 40 when you
will qualify for ~E2000/month jobs. So yeah, too late; also, not worth it (but
that's a different topic).

'Being a programmer' = hitting the pavement hard to land your first job,
transcend 'junior' status in 2-3 years. There are plenty of corporate
programming jobs you can talk yourself into at your age.

Then there is 'I want to do only cool and hip things with computers and get
paid well for it'. That doesn't have anything to do with age - or maybe a bit,
but either way, it'll be a long hard road ahead.

~~~
e12e
I agree with most of what you say, but: 2000 euro/month -- as a finished Phd
in CS?! That's ludicrously low?

Still, there's a difference between working as a developer/architect/engineer
-- and doing CS research. I'm guessing op meant a career in "software
engineering", not "computer science".

~~~
roel_v
Sorry I meant that as the salary for a post-doc, which you will be for 2 (if
you're top of your field) to 6-8 years (if you are a postdoc for longer, you
should reconsider academia imo).

Also I meant 2000 pre-tax, but when I look at it, it seems that in some
Western European countries you get paid more; like 2500-2800 pre-tax (I know
several postdocs in Southern or Eastern European countries who would jump with
joy with 2000 pre-tax though).

Don't think a PhD means you will earn a liveable wage! I personally know of a
post-doc in economics (not paid like CS I think, but certainly normally one of
the better-paid fields) who came from Eastern Europe to Belgium where he
qualified for the equivalent of welfare payments ('leefloon'), which basically
meant he made less than 817 euros a month!

~~~
e12e
Ah, yes, that makes more sense. I was more thinking as a researcher/architect
at a private company after getting a phd -- in which case it sounded very low.

I never read op's post as an "actual" "career in computer scinece", more as a
"career in software after maybe taking some CS (be that bsc ms phd or just a
few courses)".

As for a post-doc in economics -- I would expect them to make more than
minimum wage -- but again, if the goal was to make as much money as possible,
I'd assume working as a consultant for Pwc or somewhere like that would be
much better paid than continuing doing research in academia. Very different
career goals though!

------
tinco
I don't think it makes sense to study computer science at an actual
university, as you indicated you really like to code.

My strategy would be: learn one language very well, preferably a practical one
like Javascript/Ruby/Python/C#/Java, do a small but significant (don't spend
more than a month or two full time on it) open source or MVP project in it.
This project will be your portfolio. Make sure you know at least the basic
syntax of those 5 languages so you know which will suit you best.

After you have your portfolio project, you can be confident in applying for a
job, if you picked one of the first 3 languages you might want to move to a
big city like Munchen or Berlin that has lots of young companies to improve
your prospects.

The key to being a good programmer in my opinion is to know about as many
techniques and solutions as possible. This is why even during your process of
learning your primary language and acquiring your first job, you should allow
yourself to be distracted by fancy techniques and impractical languages. Learn
languages like Haskell, Lisp, Erlang, C, don't become proficient in them, just
enough to understand why they exist and why people love them, perhaps pick one
of them up as your secondary language.

Also read a few of the good books you would get to read if you had done a
university. IMO read "Computer Networking: A Top-Down Approach" by Kurose, and
"Operating System Concepts" by Silberschatz. Unlike most CS books these are
very practical and easy to read. If you'd really like some more heady stuff,
try "Computer Algorithms" by Van Gelder. Although it's sort of out of fashion
I think I have to recommend "Design Patterns" by Gamma (gang of four) as well.

Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I think if you're focused you could do all these
things in under 6 months. And you would have made a great start as a
programmer. On a university you'd spend at least 3 years doing this, 3 years
you could also spend getting real experience, making a living and perhaps
start a family. In my opinion that would be a waste. If you really aspire for
a degree, why not do it when you retire? Also if you must study now, consider
a Fachhochschule, as it would focus more on coding than on maths and other
side acts of CS.

Good luck, and if you need more book recommendations send me a message.

------
ThePhysicist
First of all: Can we please stop pretending that your professional life is
over and your skills and abilities are set in stone when you turn 30? I really
can't hear this anymore and I think it's as far from the truth as can be. So,
first of all: NO, IT's NEVER TOO LATE for you to learn something new, even at
the biblical age of 31 :D

For a more detailed answer let's first have a look at the facts: You're 31.
You have a University degree in Philosophy. You have several years (?) of work
experience in a startup. You're passionate about programming. You're based in
Germany.

Should you go study CS to land a job as a programmer? It depends.

In Germany, I think it's always beneficial if you can show some formal
certificate or University degree in CS or a related field if you apply to a
position as programmer: The lack of IT talent is not as big here as in the US,
so most companies have a larger pool of candidates to select from and will
actually care about degrees and relevant prior experience as a programmer,
especially if they're big corporations. So if you want to go work at BigCorp,
a CS degree will open many doors for you.

Startups might be more pragmatic when it comes to hiring programmers without
formal education in CS, although salaries tend to be much lower there
(especially in places like Berlin where there's a large influx of programmers
from abroad).

I think a good strategy for you could be to keep working in a field were you
can use your prior experience to make enough money, but where you can
progressively add more and more programming and technical tasks to your job
(e.g. working as a technical project manager could be interesting).

Concerning CS degrees I would have a look at part-time programmes offered by
Fachhochschulen (FHs), since most of them have an excellent reputation in the
industry, offer very pragmatic and relevant curricula (as opposed to some
academic CS programmes) will even allow you to work on your degree part-time,
or at least give you the opportunity to already work in a company during your
studies.

~~~
totoroisalive
People should drop the whole "I'm older than Zuckerberg my life it's ruin".

------
troels
Don't mind the lack of math skills. For a lot of programming tasks they are
completely irrelevant. I studied some CS and later history at uni and I always
felt that the things I learned studying history has been more useful for me
than the CS courses were.

Writing good software is very much about abstract thinking and good language
skills. I think you'll find that the things you learned studying literature
and philosophy may be a lot more applicable that common wisdom suggests.

------
blzabub
Funny, I was almost exactly 31 when I decided to abandon my small business and
go into web development. I have a degree in Psychology but had a long hobbyist
programming history going back to writing BASIC programs on an Apple IIe, then
later some dabbling in Assembler, Pascal and C.

From 2003 to 2010 I built LAMP stack bespoke websites for a modest living and
then joined a startup that was using Ruby-on-Rails.

Now I make > $100K and get job inquiries twice a day.

It is definitely possible to make such a career change, but it is challenging
to find just the right environment to be able to do it and still make a living
while learning. For almost a decade I had to rely on my non-programming work
skills to still have value to an employer while learning. For me this was
Desktop publishing and light system admin work. It was also difficult to find
increasingly complex real-world projects to work on to push me to learn more.

------
BuckRogers
Gee, I hope it's not too late. I'm 32 and been doing this as a hobbyist for a
few years now and plan to do it for a job at some point. Since when was 31
old?? What the hell.

All I can say about this is that I'd be doing this no matter my age. I love it
and I'll continue to do it without ever doing it as a career. Screw what
everyone else thinks, be a man. You should take the same attitude. I decided
at a certain point, I'll just do it on my own for my own clients if I have to.
Make your own job. But knock off this 'am I too old', you're just out of
diapers bubba.

------
chton
As a consultant, I've known several programmers that started later in life.
Some at 30, some at 40. One was a car mechanic for 20 years before starting a
CS career. All of them are very good at their CS job. I think the years of
experience in a non-CS branch helps them see different perspectives, things
that career programmers tend to miss or consider unimportant.

So by all means, go for it. It might be a little more difficult to find a job
than a younger person, but you'll manage. Good techies are always in short
supply.

------
CalRobert
For what it's worth, here's how my path looked:

* Graduated at 25 * Worked editing photos of sports apparel for 3.5 years. Spent most evenings coding what I could and making things that were useful at least in theory (ridesharing web app, etc.) * Got a terrible job at a content farm in LA (not the one you're thinking of) working in ad trafficking. Took a pay cut to do it. Made a lot of tools with the the Google DART API in Java saving the company hundreds of thousands, which meant they were willing to let me continue on these wacky side projects. * Got another job as a Technical Account Manager based on my work in HTML/CSS/JS and Java. Product flopped, but the experience was great. Learned Python and Django while I was at it * Moved to Ireland on a lark on a working holiday visa * Got a tech support position at a domain registry (not registrar). Stagnated a bit since nothing was going on yet without any domains being released, but practiced while I could, in particular brushing up on network knowledge * Was recruited by and accepted a position at a PaaS company in Dublin as a support engineer, at roughly triple the salary I was at in LA. I spend most of my days working with iOS, Android, and Unity SDK's. I do a lot of debugging by trawling through logs. Have worked with Mongo quite a bit for this.

I am 31 - but the part where I got the crap job in LA I was 28, so I don't
think you're too far off. Also, I'm not a "developer", but I hope I can become
one in a few years' time.

~~~
e12e
Out of curiosity, what kind of money did you start at in your job in Dublin?
I've been toying with the idea of moving to the UK/Ireland, and from what I've
been able to gather pay seems to be really low there? For reference, I'd
consider anything below 2500 euro/month _after tax_ to be "really low" for
knowledge work where you're doing something useful.

~~~
CalRobert
Hi e12e, I've messaged the email address in your profile.

------
Xenmen
I think your drive to learn is what's really valuable (disclaimer, I'm 23).
Looks to me like a lot of people give up on learning anything at some point,
and just rot away.

The fact you're still learning something radically new for you at 31 means
your soul hasn't been crushed. Stay that way!

I took a couple years not coding after a stress attack, and just recently I've
been getting back into it. Entire days debugging, writing, learning; it's the
biggest joy I have in life besides music and my two guinea pigs. It's also the
most creative and powerful tool suite I have. Maybe it's like that for you
too.

I had a dilemna in my late teens, I thought it was too late to learn to
program. Most of the best people I know of started around age 11. I decided I
would never become a programmer, I just couldn't compete. Then I went to
university and by chance, took an intro course, had a good prof, and learned
anyway. I still can't compete, I only got one short job as a programmer, but
I'm a lot happier for understanding how the Internet works, and my computer,
and cpu design, and... everything.

So, I don't know at all how your age will affect getting hired. Maybe just
don't mention how recently you learned to program :]

Regardless, I'll bet your life is more worth living for having learned more
computer science, so at least for that, keep it up.

------
onion2k
_and i 'm totally addicted to coding - even when i notice my lack of math
skills. i spent the nights trying to understand cs concepts and couldn't sleep
or stop before i found a solution (sometimes i did not sleep the whole day)._

That sort of thing sounds terrible to people who're recruiting. The fact is
being good at making software is about 20% actual coding ability, and 80%
being diligent and organised, communicating with other people, and willingness
to trudge through boring tasks like writing documentation and attending
meetings. Faced with two candidates, one of whom is all "I love coding and I
don't sleep if I'm working on something!" and the other who is "I like coding,
but I put it to one side in the evenings to socialise, watch movies, read
books" it'll be the second candidate who gets the job _every single time_.

If you want to get your first (or second, whatever) job writing software
concentrate more on the 'getting a job' part than the 'writing software' part.
Demonstrate skills that will show you're a person who is nice to be around. At
the beginning of your career that is _far_ more important than being able to
solve hard problems, because the 'solving hard problems' bit is going to be
someone else's job.

~~~
chris_wot
I wouldn't employee either. The first one sounds like they have some issues.
The second one doesn't sound like they have much passion.

I'd say something like "I'm passionate about coding". :-)

------
lultimouomo
I got my first job as a programmer at 26, with only a BA in philosophy in my
pockets and no previous work experience whatsoever, so I'm pretty sure you can
succeed, and you don't need to go back to uni for that. Sure, I was a bit
younger than you, but I didn't have previous experiences in IT as you have. I
did have some open source contributions to show, and I think they were a
determining factor in landing that first job; maybe you could find an
interesting project to contribute to as well. But the most important thing you
should remember is that your kind of education makes you an oddball in the
field, and this can work for you as much as it can work against you. It will
raise some suspicion in the interviewer, but it will also give you the
opportunity to stand out among other candidate:

\- philosophy is in a way a perfect alternate education path for a programmer,
as it trains analytical skills and critical thought.

\- it also usually gives you communication skills that are rare among computer
people; you are probably able to express yourself in a more appropriate and
fluent way than most other people applying for the same jobs, and this is
something that can really work for you during an interview, as long as you go
in confident.

\- as a last bonus, it can show that you are really passionate about
programming, and you're not another run-of-the-mill guy that got a CS degree
as the safest way to be sure to have a paycheck at the end of the month.

If you find a way to make interviewers consider all these things, I think
you'll land a job in a reasonable amount of time.

------
jsamuel
Given how many people are uninspired and undirected in their lives, it's a
wonderful privilege to have something you know you want to do. On top of that,
it's amazing to be in a position where you can make it happen.

I've got a lot of similarities with your story.

I dropped out of EE in 1997 when I was 18. A few years later, in 2003, I was
about to begin studying writing and literature when I realized that my hobby-
become-job, programming, was what I was truly passionate about.

At first, I tinkered with useless online courses (they were much more useless
ten years ago). I finally put life plans in motion so that I could study CS at
a university. I began studying CS in 2006 with the goal of becoming a security
expert. I got my undergrad degree in CS when I was 30.

While an undergrad, I got involved with research and decided to go to grad
school. To give me more experience, meet more people in my field, and
generally improve grad school options, I took an extra year doing research in
a CS department before applying to grad programs. In that time I published a
research paper with people I'd admired from before I went back to school. I
got my choice of top research programs and went to grad school in 2010.

In 2012, I realized academia wasn't for me and had a startup idea I wanted to
pursue. Now, two years and a huge amount of learning and new experiences
later, I've got a quickly growing startup with amazing people on our team. I
no longer write much code, but I love my new challenges every day.

You don't know what you'll end up doing, but if you know you want to study CS,
then start as soon as you can. Life's too short to delay doing what you know
you should do.

------
arisAlexis
I had worked as a programmer for 2 years in 2000 and then worked in a
completely different job. At 32 I restarted my CS bachelor's which I just
graduated. Last year I got hired in a not so demanding CS job. I also took the
Java Programmers Certificate. I am 34. I think you should go for it if you
like it. Get some experience now and then you could branch into CTO positions.

------
mlangdon
I'm 33. I learned web basics at 15 (HTML, JS, eventually CSS) and dabbled in
that on a personal website till about 25. Meanwhile, I got an English degree,
including a single calculus class. At 30, just after the birth of my daughter,
exhausted by my stupid day job (not remotely CS related), I started teaching
myself Java, then Android dev, then Python. I was on the verge of going over
to the .NET dark side when I found a job that wanted Python and Java and SQL
and oh, could I teach myself some Objective-C and write a small iOS app? It's
with a small company, the benefits are meh and the pay is average for the area
and I absolutely love it.

I feel pretty lucky to have stumbled into this. I think it's mostly repeatable
with the right company -- small, probably not a traditional development house
or major corporation (the company does a lot of industrial automation, PLCs
and such, I do the PC side).

FWIW, you're exactly the kind of person we hire.

------
d33d33
Hey guys, i'm totally surprised and happy about your awesome replies! I read
all of your comments and with each post, my motivation raised to jump over my
own shadow.

Thanks to your influence, i applied for a cs-study starting in october. I
guess within the study i'll have better chances to get job offers in germany
(thx @ ThePhysicist).

I really like the strategy, that tinco advised - i'm leaving to a bigger city
next month, enhance my coding skills and try to put sth. on github. Managed to
get some used versions of "Computer Networking: A Top-Down Approach" by
Kurose, and "Operating System Concepts" by Silberschatz (+ some math books) :)
And i appreciate the troels' objection not to study cs just because of being
weak in math. lultimouomo, CalRobert, fillskills, qgi and more motivated me to
go for cs, even though i have my background in arts.

------
fillskills
The best software engineers I know have come from non software backgrounds.
Some were musicians, some were MBAs and I even know a sculptor who is a good
friend and a Data Scientist now. So I guess in my experience, starting in CS
late has been good for them. The most common nature I see among them is that
they take their CS career very seriously compared to others.

Because of such friends/collegues I have been doing some research checking out
which CS field is in the most demand. So for someone else who switches careers
late, it might be easier. My site is not live yet, but here is the research
from jobs in Silicon Valley and Los Angeles markets:

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7f4sigbrzhnleu/FillSkill%20Market...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7f4sigbrzhnleu/FillSkill%20Market%20Research%20Chart.png)

Hope it helps

------
engassa
Its never too late. Its like picking up painting or writing literature or any
other artistic avenue. In some cases the restrictions like languages are like
the limitations of a canvas. You will encounter, a number of times, code that
will be beautiful enough to be framed up.

Keep at it! And, welcome to the community!

"What hackers and painters have in common is that they're both makers. Along
with composers, architects, and writers, what hackers and painters are trying
to do is make good things. They're not doing research per se, though if in the
course of trying to make good things they discover some new technique, so much
the better." \-
[http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html)

------
qgi
Definitely! I studied pedagogy at a German university but got into programming
and really liked it. I took a vocational course for a CS bachelor's degree
here in Germany but even before I finished I got a good job as a software
developer in a medium sized company.

From my experience you don't need a university degree to get a decent
programming job if you have some patience and can demonstrate that you're
passionate about it (which your cs certificates clearly communicate).

If you want a formal education, I can recommend
[http://www.oncampus.de/medieninformatik.html](http://www.oncampus.de/medieninformatik.html)

Feel free to send me an email (qgi at offliners dot com) if you want to hear
more about this.

------
tomp
I just want to point out that you don't need to (formally) study CS to become
a programmer. Sure, having some knowledge about how computers work and what
different data structures and algorithms are there helps, but you don't need
3/4 years of university for that.

I would suggest you take a semi-ambitious software-related goal that will
nicely showcase your skills, and achieve it. For example, if you want to be a
web dev, make a web-app that will allow people to order food online/in a
restaurant using their mobile phone. You'll learn a lot in the process, and it
will serve as a proof that you're capable and not a bullshitter to potential
employers.

------
aikah
CS has to be one of the only tech field where one came build up a career even
after 40.

If you are capable of continuous learning,and computers are a real passion
then nothing is impossible.

Prior experience in a sale or management position can even be a plus to your
resume.

------
sbarg
It's never too late. You have shown you possess the desire and drive to learn.
I think a good next step is to write some code and put it up on GitHub where
prospective employers can see that you have written something. Good luck!

------
mostlybadfly
I'm going to be 32 and have recently started teaching myself Ruby/Rails in the
past couple of months. I get it, one of the biggest insecurities I have is
wondering if I'm too old to get the job I want.

Like you, I obsess over the things I've been learning and finding that this is
bigger passion than many things I've done in the past.

Just keep learning and keep working on things. It will happen eventually. I
have much more to learn but I am just learning now that I need to stop
worrying about an age and just go fort he job that I want because it will
happen.

------
e12e
It's silly, but one of the first things I thought about when I saw you've
studied philosophy was (my emphasis):

"Architectural Styles and the Design of Network-based Software Architectures

Dissertation submitted in partial satisfaction of the requirements for the
degree of

 _DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY_

in Information and Computer Science by Roy Thomas Fielding (2000)

Dissertation Committee:

Professor Richard N. Taylor, Chair

Professor Mark S. Ackerman

Professor David S. Rosenblum"

Any formal logic in that philosophy degree you have? (Also, every time I look
up that dissertation: Wow, look at that dissertation committee!)

------
eliben
> and i'm totally addicted to coding - even when i notice my lack of math
> skills. i spent the nights trying to understand cs concepts and couldn't
> sleep or stop before i found a solution

Yes you can _definitely_ do it. Many, nay most 30+ y.o. treat this profession
just as another job without a particular liking to it (not that there's
anything wrong with it - I'm just stating facts). I think you will overtake
them within a couple of years with this passion.

------
illogical
I'm currently 33 and I'm planning on getting a degree one day, when I have my
feet on the ground and my wallet has enough disposable income to afford it.

That feeling you described is also very familiar to me: After starting a MOOC
I caught myself wandering back in the problem I was trying to tackle when in
the bus or train.

It's scary that we also share the "lack of math skills" but I'm planning on
doing something about it. Maybe Khanacademy is a good start.

------
gissolved
I have anecdotal evidence that pursuing a full CS degree is not necessary to
find a programming job but what might help is following some offline
(official) lessons as my girlfriend did or getting certified in a technology
you want to work with. So my advice would be to keep searching for a job and
to continue learning and make your efforts visible (blog, github, etc.). Bonus
tip: add some contact information to your web profiles like this one on hn.

------
bulte-rs
Personally I don't look at age when considering applicants...

Ok, not true. At this moment the company I work for employs mostly young
people; i.e. twentysomethings and an oddball 30-35'er. I would actually prefer
to hire a 30-40 y/o at this moment; even when lacking a bit of
professional/coding experience.

In my opinion: Don't let the big junior-level hiring pool full of 20-30'ers
discourage you.

~~~
arsalanb
Why, though?

I've heard many canned responses to this, mostly about youngsters having more
energy and in some way that extrapolates to having more "potential" or being
better for a company. But my question here is, really?

How can age alone tell you about how well a person is going to perform or how
valuable of an asset he can be to a company? After some thought, I agree it is
_one_ factor, but I still maintain doesn't entirely make a case for or against
anyone. In fact, I feel it's kind of unfair to those over who are "less"
preferred in startup jobs. If a person is willing to learn, has talent, and is
passionate — heck, give him a shot.

I'm not accusing you of doing so, just pointing out a trend. And BTW, I'm 18
years old.

You obviously have more experience in hiring (maybe even firing) people, so
could you tell me if I'm right here?

~~~
bulte-rs
Not THAT much more experience probably ;-)

You're - again IMO - right about it being only one of the factors.

The reason we hire mostly 'youngsters' (damn, never thought I would say this
before reaching 30 myself) is that 'they' are more readily available. I'm in
no way saying that young people have more energy, are more driven.

A reason you MIGHT consider - which I consider applicable to myself as well -
is that as people 'age' their priorities shift.

I have to young kids at home (2 y/o and 5 w/o) and I consider them my absolute
number one priority.

Most people in their early twenties don't have to make these priority
considerations and are 'likely' to be more dedicated to your company (or at
least appear to be). On the flipside: I guess twentysomethings are easier to
ditch your company and leave for a better paycheck as well.

That's why I'm saying that I never really take age into consideration when
considering a candidate. It just isn't a factor for me.

For me, most imporant things are (in no particular order):

* Cultural match (/ Social skills)

* Drive (want to learn, want to make stuff)

* Pragmatism

* Tech skills

~~~
zerr
Could you please clarify about "cultural match"? Provided that the person is
good and kind, but e.g. likes different music genres, or thinks that hunting
is like a killing a human (while some existing teammate is hunter), would you
consider this case as a cultural mismatch?

~~~
bulte-rs
Although this is more of a personal thing I would never judge people based on
their musical preference (that's what headphones are for ;-)) and hobbies.
Cultural is - for me - a combination of drive (yes, one of the other factors)
and the ability to work with others without driving them to tears. That and a
flexible sense of humour ;-)

------
TeeWEE
My advice: if you already can program in python. Try getting programming job
somewhere, if its difficult to get, try building some stuff and put them in
github, so people can "See" that you are passionate. You dont need a degree,
just coding skills.

From there, once you start working, you can choose to work 35h per week, and
spend the rest of the time teaching yourself more skills.

------
DanBC
Are you askin whether it is better for you to get a CS qualification, or
whether you should get experience? (For example, by contributing to open
source projects)?

Real work with real people should be useful. You get to demonstrate ability to
collaborate, sometimes with difficult people.

------
singingfish
I wrote a programming book. Excellent source of instant credibility. Computer
science is a bit of a waste of time in many respects, lots of self taught
people around (I did 2 semesters of comp sci courses, and a bit of AI stuff
when I was a psych undergrad).

~~~
keithpeter
Care to share a link?

------
rodrigomangue
[http://zd.net/1mqiA02](http://zd.net/1mqiA02) \- Nice article somehow related
to this topic.

------
cafard
I went back to school at 33 to learn about programming. It worked out for me.

------
sidcool
Yes You Can.

------
smegel
Try and become a DBA. They are kind of expected to be old (as in 40+) and can
rake in the $$$. Although the kind of "coding" you will do will be limited to
scripting, SQL, and maybe some ORASQL/APEX.

~~~
steego
I'd like to echo to disregard this advice as well.

I work for a company with a lot of young programmers and I recently hired a
bright guy in his 30's who decided change career paths.

Do what you love and work on side projects that you will love. It will go a
long way in an interview if you can bring us and show off something that you
loved working on.

------
michaelochurch
I'm the exact same age. It's too late to _restart_ your career. You don't want
to be lumped in the same pool with the clueless 22-year-olds with little
skill, little life experience, and lots of mindless energy. They will beat you
at the grunt game. Chances are, you have an edge over them in other things
(due to your life experience) but you may not have figured out exactly what
that is yet.

Though it's too late to _restart_ , it's not too late to _resume_ your career.
It's a matter of how you present yourself and what you are trying to do. You
can't devalue your own career path to this point. You have to be able to make
the case that it's relevant to the job. Literature: you developed an aesthetic
sense by reading well-crafted fiction, and you have a sense of narrative.
Philosophy: you're used to ordered, logical, methodical thought and you've
applied it to a wide array of human problems. Failed IT startup: you've seen
how companies operate in good times and bad (OK, maybe just bad) and developed
leadership skills (transfer over different experience if you have to).
EdX/Coursera: you're capable of learning hard material on your own. A lot of
people play around in Coursera, but people who actually finish hard courses
are pretty rare (and that's not a flaw of Coursera; it's just an artifact of
how people explore and think).

I think every programmer in machine learning feels a "lack of math skills". I
was very strong in math in high school and college, placed in a few national
math competitions, and sometimes even I struggle with machine learning papers.
Keep in mind that you're trying to absorb a month or few (or years) of
someone's work in a few hours. (I studied pure math, so I hadn't gotten "down
and dirty" with linear algebra for years when I started studying ML.) Except
for the full-time category theorists and advanced probabilists to whom gnarly
integrals come naturally, we all feel inadequate here. If you just keep
studying and keep sharp, you can get yourself ahead of 95% of professional
programmers quite quickly.

 _do you think, it makes sense to study computer science at the age of 31? or
is it too late?_

Fuck no, it's not too late. If anything, 31 is too early to _stop_ learning
challenging things (which many people do, sometimes even before then).

 _do you work at a human resources department and can tell me if there is a
chance for those kind of people?_

As you get older, your best bet is less often to go directly through HR. If
you're at an HR wall, you're more likely to face prejudice and harsh age-
grading than if you meet someone at a conference. Certainly by 40, almost all
of your jobs will be found through networking rather than job sites or front-
door applications. Is it ideal that things are that way? No. It's something to
keep in mind. The good news is that you're probably way more socially capable
and confident than you were at 22, so the networking is less scary.

------
yummybear
So presumably it takes 10.000 hours of practice to succeed in a field
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_\(book\))).
Assuming you only have to became 1/3 successful (a wild guess) to get a job in
the field, you need 3.333 hours of learning. If you spend 4 hours a night
studying, it'll take you two years.

