
Saudi Arabia tracks runaway women by cellphone IMEI - onetimemanytime
https://www.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-imei-track-runaways-2019-5
======
binarymax
I remember back in the 90's, when Intel was going to introduce a unique
identifier in their processors that could be used for authentication purposes,
it caused a huge uproar and Intel backed down. [0]

Having a hardware embedded unique ID that can be (is) used for tracking a
known persons location at all times is probably the most intrusive privacy
violation we've ever had. That we willingly carry these things around and
naively throw the repercussions out the window is the result of the death by a
thousand cuts.

We've long lost the war on privacy.

[0] [https://www.wired.com/1999/01/intel-on-privacy-
whoops/](https://www.wired.com/1999/01/intel-on-privacy-whoops/)

~~~
segfaultbuserr
Looking back, it was unbelievable to see how huge the storm caused by Intel's
"processor serial number" in Pentium 3 was, that even forced Intel to withdrew
it.

Meanwhile, nobody has ever said anything about the serial numbers of hard
drives, GPUs, motherboards, RAM modules, Ethernet MAC address, etc, etc, etc.
Nowadays, basically everything comes with one UUID.

Pretty illogical, isn't it?

> _We 've long lost the war on privacy._

Agree. I understand UUID is important in engineering for many purposes, but
the fact that nobody is talking about it anymore (because they are nothing
when compared to more severe issues like fingerprinting) indicates we've long
lost the war on privacy.

~~~
Scoundreller
Would love to see a YouTube channel or blog where somebody systemically takes
apart their computer and starts reflashing every serial number in flash/EEPROM
with 0x00.

It’s not like any of these are phoning home (I hope), or married together, so
there’s nothing to kill clones.

~~~
segfaultbuserr
> _reflashing every serial number in flash /EEPROM with 0x00._

It will be an amazing video, but good luck if the device in question has (very
likely):

* a mask-ROM / OTP-ROM for a serial number - almost all microcontrollers and EEPROMs sold nowadays has at least one permanent and unchangable UUID for hardware tracking and DRM implementation (security-through-obscurity tricks to prevent rogue competitors from copying your firmware).

* "firmware read-protection" \- which means the only way to dump the EEPROM is performing a full-chip erase and destroy the entire firmware, commonly used in embedded systems to stop rogue competitors from copying your firmware.

~~~
Scoundreller
I just knew that RAM DIMMs usually have a 24 or 93 series chip on them, and
figured that could be re-programmed (or replaced with a reprogrammable version
if the existing chip is non-compliant).

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maxxxxx
By supporting Saudi Arabia the West really shoots itself in the foot. You
can't lecture other countries about freedom while supporting this regime.

~~~
colechristensen
There is a delicate game being played.

If you are friendly with SA you can put pressure on them to improve. If you
declare them an evil enemy would the outcome be better?

There is a path to walk and it is not easy to find the right one when you have
to deal with reality not just idealism. The natural resources in the middle
east are important to the world and it is not so simple as an 'us vs. them'
because there are many entirely separate interests in the region and we play
them off each other.

Maybe it would be better to do a Star Trek style prime directive of completely
cutting off countries until they have a certain level of social development,
but you would have to come to terms with knowing bad things were happening and
actively deciding to do nothing.

~~~
resoluteteeth
> If you are friendly with SA you can put pressure on them to improve. If you
> declare them an evil enemy would the outcome be better?

> There is a path to walk and it is not easy to find the right one when you
> have to deal with reality not just idealism. The natural resources in the
> middle east are important to the world and it is not so simple as an 'us vs.
> them' because there are many entirely separate interests in the region and
> we play them off each other.

> Maybe it would be better to do a Star Trek style prime directive of
> completely cutting off countries until they have a certain level of social
> development, but you would have to come to terms with knowing bad things
> were happening and actively deciding to do nothing.

If the US was friendly to all countries in order to exert pressure on them
this might make sense, but in light of actual US foreign policy with respect
to North Korea, Iran, etc. it's completely absurd to pretend that the US is
being friendly to SA as a means to effect change.

~~~
dopamean
> it's completely absurd to pretend that the US is being friendly to SA as a
> means to effect change

Agreed. Also, where's the change? It feels like I've been hearing the same
thing about SA since I was a kid.

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pkaye
Now that they know, they can try to swap out for a burner phone along the way.

~~~
rolltiide
I've been thinking about having a service that lets someone else randomize the
location of your phone. That was the primary goal and it evolved to food
delivery couriers having additional services where they charge people's phones
in a lockbox while they run around all day.

Result: Many people's location is erroneous data. No single person's use of
the service is suspicious and merely reflecting a societal sentiment for
privacy. Maybe some of the charging is done with renewable energy.

~~~
pkaye
Can't the cell towers triangulate the phone location anyway.

~~~
rolltiide
yes but it won't give them your location, it will give them the courier's. the
location history would put your device in totally random locations during the
time you want to be anonymous, but it wouldn't look like you just left your
device at home either in a way that didn't fit your pattern.

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negamax
QQ: Can we not make mobiles without IMEI? Surely in today's time WiFi is
ubiquitous and that will only increase with many cities installing city wide
free WiFi. A simple Internet only phone with built in Tor support can push the
envelope.

Most of my communication is through apps. I don't think not having a number
would make a huge difference

~~~
Scoundreller
IMEI is the phone’s unique serial number, not a phone number.

But everything you said still applies: why does my phone need a serial number
that it phones “home” with?

~~~
saulrh
For the same reason your Ethernet card and wifi chip have MAC addresses,
except the cell network is a single giant address space spanning literally the
entire planet. Even better, it's paid-access you wouldn't gain anything by
periodically randomizing it unless you also anonymized payment. On top of all
that, it's all the way down at the hardware level, and I bet that cell network
equipment is sensitive enough to tell what model of phone you're using by
looking at the features its silicon supports and then deanonymize you based on
deviations from that model introduced by your phone case and which pocket you
carry it in and how you hold it.

~~~
Scoundreller
Is this where I admit that I change my MACs whenever I can to something random
when I find the option in my device config?

~~~
saulrh
Yep. Although, as I pointed out, IMEI randomization doesn't do anything if
your payment and use authorization isn't also anonymous.

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forkLding
Smells a bit similar to the Handmaid's Tale:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale)

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walrus01
The astonishing thing to me is that due to oil money and the Saudi royal
family, the US and UK have gone all-in with their support of the Saudi regime.
When in fact the situation for womens' rights, while for from ideal, is
significantly better in Iran.

Historical reasons about the Iranian revolution, cia supporting coups, etc.

~~~
m23khan
Frankly speaking, when it comes to Muslim countries and women, Bangladesh,
Malaysia, Turkey and perhaps Indonesia among some others have a great record
(relatively). But biggest improvement seems to be coming from Pakistan of all
the places.

Saudis and other strict regimes should look into changes that enforces
protection and rights and freedom for women. The more well educated and
economically integrated women are (along with men), it is better for society.

~~~
selimthegrim
What laws has Pak government passed recently?

~~~
m23khan
Not much needs to change in terms of Pakistani law -- laws have always favored
liberal views and freedom for women in Pakistan. Its just last 20-30 years
have been bad socially for Pakistan.

Things have started to turn corner now - media and social activists have
rightly pressed case for empowering women and there are number of influential
Pakistani female politicians now. Government have started silencing hardliners
and have started distancing themselves.

I hope that soon Pakistanis start pushing their girls for better education and
to start females to work at all levels of Pakistani economy. This is one thing
that is really killing Pakistani economy and is prime reason behind our high
population growth. As a Pakistani man, I see good things hopefully for women
in Pakistan.

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droithomme
Well gosh now, if we don't track down and capture runaway slaves/women/etc,
won't society completely collapse? How could we have a modern enlightened
society without this policy?

Also, very important we support Saudi/US war on Yemen and Iran. Gosh those
folks are simply barbaric cavemen types!

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sriram_malhar
Is there a black/underground solution for this?

I can imagine supplying some needy soul with a phone kitted out with a
different country's international roaming plan, so that that IMEI was never
registered locally, nor associated with a Saudi citizen.

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Romanulus
It's just to keep track of them to make sure they are safe... some even like
the idea of being tracked at all times because it's so comforting and leads to
a feeling of security!

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rdiddly
Clearly the solution is to leave the phone at home. It's not like you _need_
it. (Crazy talk, right?) Or for added flair you can try dropping it off at the
wrong airport or leaving it in a cab or on a train or something, but that
seems riskier.

~~~
azernik
It's very useful for logistics when you're on your own - finding your way to
the next safe place, calling a contact, etc.

The real solution is to buy a burner phone, but I don't know how easy that is
for a woman in the KSA.

~~~
rdiddly
I didn't say it wasn't useful, I said it's not essential. And since burner
phones can be traced too, I would lean toward simply planning ahead,
memorizing things or writing them down, and showing up to things in person.
That covers everything you need. That's how things were done for the first 40
years of my life, and it worked, and all of those things still work now. Then
when you reach asylum you can think about the nice-to-haves.

------
gesman
Engaging security forces to chase women.

Do they also give medals for bravery for that?

~~~
neilv
I share your concern and anger. This particular phrasing could sound like
reinforcing a historical perception of women as innately weak and needing
protection. I prefer to think of it as _people_ needing help due to
_circumstances_ , and the circumstances in this case perhaps due in part to
such historical perceptions.

~~~
bad_alloc
> I share your concern and anger. This particular phrasing could sound like
> reinforcing a historical perception of [indigenous people/black
> people/jews/...] as innately weak and needing protection. I prefer to think
> of it as people needing help due to circumstances, and the circumstances in
> this case perhaps due in part to such historical perceptions.

When the persecution of a certain group of humans is this direct and the
consequences of capture so severe, I think the semantics of help are
irrelevant until the danger is resolved.

~~~
neilv
Please don't misuse square brackets in a quote to say something the person
didn't say. We don't want that to become the new destructively illiterate
"literally".

