
Vivaldi 1.2 release - timlyo
https://vivaldi.com/?pk_campaign=1.2_newsletter
======
StevePerkins
It feels like they're trying to serve two competing goals with this:

1) Be a faster, lighter, more customizable competitor to Chrome

2) Be a full "Internet suite" with browser and email client

I'm sure how well you can accomplish #1 while pouring resources into #2.

Moreover, I'm not sure how much of an audience there even is for #2. The
minority who want a desktop email client are very vocal about it, but most of
us haven't used an email fat client in years (save for perhaps Outlook when
forced to at work).

I was a huge fan of Opera back in the day, and still use it as the primary
browser on my phone. But even in its heyday, Opera's mail client was pretty
weak compared to Thunderbird or other options. Bolting-on a "meh" email client
to a web browser is like a digital wristwatch that prominently display the
current YEAR on the main screen... a largely unnecessary feature that just
takes up room.

I toyed around with an earlier release of Vivaldi, and thought it looked
promising. But at this point I wouldn't even consider a browser that doesn't
sync bookmarks and other data across my devices. In terms of prioritizing
resources, I care about that 1,000x more than re-implementing Opera features
from the late 90's that most people won't use.

~~~
feld
Opera's mail client was awesome. It was much faster than Thunderbird or
Outlook. Those would blow up with my inboxes of 500,000+ emails but Opera just
chugged right along and worked without any problems.

It also synced IMAP from scratch way faster, too.

edit: The search was incredible as well

~~~
oblio
I really miss their old mail client. I guess they didn't target the enterprise
email cloud and as a result couldn't fund it. It probably needed calendaring
for that...

------
petra
A month ago Vivaldi's CEO did a reddit AMA, with tons of questions and
answers:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4ebgom/iama_jon_von_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4ebgom/iama_jon_von_tetzchner_cofounder_and_ceo_of/)

~~~
JasonSage
> The biggest features we are working on are sync and mail

Okay, I have to question this. Why is a browser vendor spending precious time
and money adding a mailbox to their browser?

I used Vivaldi a little bit ago during the beta/1.0 period for a few months—at
that time at least, the UX needed more polish and there were bugs and
usability issues that were daily pain points.

So I find this it concerning that they're building a mail client. They already
have a browser and I already have a mail client. Why take developers off of
working on the browser to provide me with a new mail client? It gives me the
impression that this is fundamental to their strategy for building their
browser UX—constant integration. What does this say about the future of
Vivaldi development? I think I'd rather have a flexible UI that works for
whatever I'm doing—NOT a bunch of integrations to various workflow points,
some of which I really want and others I couldn't care for.

As if you did not already have the ability to put a mail client on your
sidebar in Vivaldi. Using web panels, you can pin the email provider of your
choice to an icon and open it in a sidebar at any point you like.

~~~
castell
It's awesome that they implement an email client. (hopefully open source)

Opera Mail and Thunderbird were good free email clients, but now discontinued.

What options are there (PC)? Outlook, Windows 10 Mail, Windows Live
Mail/Outlook Express, Thunderbird, IBM Notes, OSX Mail.

Ideally, I would like an email client that is as powerful as Outlook, has the
UI of Google mail (especially the conversation view), has superb IMAP support,
runs on my PC and stores all emails on disk. What's disappointing is that many
email clients still have no conversation view (or a broken one like Outlook),
just a "sent" and "inbox" folder, and this in 2016.

~~~
SyneRyder
I like Postbox, which is a commercial fork of Thunderbird. Seems to hit most
of your needs (not sure about the conversation view as I always turn off
threads) and has some of the keyboard shortcuts of GMail. Definitely lets you
store emails on disk / offline. Alas version 4 has been less stable than
version 3 was.

(Not free, but $20 is pretty cheap.)

~~~
mariusmg
Genuine question but what does something like Postbox has (for regular users)
over the vanilla Thunderbird + addons to justify $20 ?

~~~
SyneRyder
It's been so long since I used Thunderbird that I'm not sure. I don't know if
Thunderbird has things like the Focus Pane, where I can live-filter my Inbox
down to just certain topics or certain senders. It feels a bit like OmniFocus
or a GTD / Getting Things Done workflow:

[http://www.softwarecrew.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/05/postb...](http://www.softwarecrew.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/05/postbox-4-win-focus-pane.png)

The killer app for me is the Postbox 4 feature to file a message in a folder
just by pressing the V keyboard shortcut. Postbox then shows an
Alfred/Spotlight-like "quick bar" with autocomplete - so just by typing "V
GER" I can file an email in my "German Lessons" subfolder without ever taking
my hands off the keyboard. They have a similar feature for automatically
entering responses with a couple of keystrokes:

[https://www.postbox-inc.com/blog/entry/postbox-4-quick-
bar](https://www.postbox-inc.com/blog/entry/postbox-4-quick-bar)

(I also like that Postbox prompts if it detects the word "attached" and you
forget to add the attachment, but I assume most email clients have that now.)

~~~
mariusmg
This can be done with addons in TB :

\- Expression search addon to filter/search the inbox.

\- Nostalgy addon for moving mail (and navigating the mailbox only with the
keyboard). This addon is basically required for serious usage. Just press b
and a popup shows up and allows you tochoose folder with autocomplete. It
looks like this
[http://i.imgur.com/qYheafo.png](http://i.imgur.com/qYheafo.png)

~~~
SyneRyder
I took a look, and it does seem many of Postbox's features are renditions of
Thunderbird addons, just with a slicker UI. Nostalgy has clearly been a big
influence, and possibly Expression (though both are inspired by Gmail). I
haven't found an addon for the focus sidebar, but I bet that's out there too.

My only issue is that during the years I used Thunderbird (pre Postbox) &
exploring the addons, I never even knew about Nostalgy or Expression. For me,
it's worth $20 for someone to design a pre-loaded Thunderbird with the best
addons & make it part of the default UI & support docs. I would have easily
taken $20+ of billable time just to discover & decide between the TB QuickMove
and Quick Folder Move addons.

[But I'm really glad Thunderbird can do this, now I can recommend Nostalgy &
TB to folks who don't want to pay for an email program.]

------
wslh
> One of the things that makes Vivaldi unique is that it is built on modern
> web technologies.

If a company is making this stupid statement on the first page I can imagine
the rest.

~~~
kristofferR
It's not stupid, it's true - a lot of the UI is written in
HTML/CSS/Javascript.

~~~
evook
What he calls out as stupid was the mistake of using those technologies for
the UI.

Although I defended Vivaldi as the Opera Successor since its Beta, I stopped
to support and suggest it because it failed to fix the js/css/HTML
sluggishness with Version 1, and even more sadly with Version 1.2. I started
using unofficial stable Chromium Builds with Codecs and Sync disabled via
ChrLauncher and couldn't be happier.

~~~
CelticSuperhero
What do you expect from a non native UI which is rendered by the Chromium
extensions system? It only can be as fast as the used System is.

So, Vivaldi is nothing at all for people who value speed more than functions.
But for people who value functions over speed, i can see that these could be
drawn to it.

------
CelticSuperhero
Vivaldi features are not that bad, but the fact that this "browser" is only a
combination of some extensions bundled with Chromium is a big downside.

Also, not being able to implement more privacy for example fingerprint block
is also rather bad. All they do is work inside their extensions related code
with avoiding to touch actual Chromium code base.

When these guys have finally more knowledge about Chromium to either enhance
it or remove unused parts - Vivaldi UI exists outside of Chromium and they
carry all that Chromium luggage around which they also not using at all which
means tons of dead weight - then this browser COULD be useful - of course only
when Open Sourcing it 100% - but before, not even worth thinking about it.

~~~
kahnpro
Also the whole fact that their internet is JS/Electron. This really puts a
damper on the performance their UI will be able to achieve.

------
frik
The browser is fast, based on Chromium, has a nice Opera 12 inspired UI but is
closed source.

~~~
zerr
Similarly to Opera, the startup time (even hot) is far behind Chrome. This is
a deal breaker.

~~~
levesque
Your browser stays open for 99% of the day, I don't see why a slow startup
would be a deal breaker.

~~~
zerr
No, my browser gets closed/opened a _lot_ during the day.

~~~
tauchunfall
Why?

~~~
angry-hacker
Different people use browsers differently? We're humans after all.

I never understood people whining about memory usage and having 120 tabs
opened - - having so many tabs sounded silly - - now I'm one of those people.
I just happened to start using my browser that way.

Different people, different needs.

~~~
zerr
Yes, I still have Opera 12 with a lot of tabs and tab groups. Sadly, old
Opera's tab grouping is not replicated in any other browser I've tried.

------
rplnt
Yesterday's post
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11820795](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11820795)

------
Narretz
I wonder why basically all new browser projects use Webkit / Blink, and none
use Gecko)? This only strenghtens Google's position regarding the
implementation of web standards. Recently Microsoft open sourced Chakra, their
JS Engine, and there's to hope that it can compete with V8 to prevent the same
for JavaScript.

~~~
robin_reala
Because embedding Gecko is markedly more difficult than embedding Blink /
WebKit, and now that we’re heading towards a WebKit / Blink monoculture
there’s no incentive to choose against that.

Interestingly, Servo is basing itself on Chromium’s embedding framework, so
that should hopefully be a valid choice when it reaches maturity.

~~~
_pmf_
> Interestingly, Servo is basing itself on Chromium’s embedding framework, so
> that should hopefully be a valid choice when it reaches maturity.

Rust introduces several new toolchain requirements, though.

~~~
colemickens
? When you use CEF, you're not building Chromium so I don't understand why
Servo's compilation toolchain would affect an application that just wants to
embed. Libraries written in Rust can be easily called from C code.

------
seyz
Do you plan to release vivaldi opensource or not?

~~~
pinkbatman
From the AMA on reddit

> We have the C++ code as open source now. As far as making the rest of
> Vivaldi open source, we're still discussing the implications and want to
> make the best possible decision.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4ebgom/iama_jon_von_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4ebgom/iama_jon_von_tetzchner_cofounder_and_ceo_of/d1yoama)

~~~
pritambaral
I think it's mostly the C++ code that was already open source (Chromium etc.).

------
TruthAndDare
> We use JavaScript and React to create the user interface with the help of
> Node.js and a long list of NPM modules.

Does this make any difference to the user?

~~~
Narretz
They are aiming to please power-users, some of which might be pleased to know
which stack is used.

~~~
dingdingdang
In that case they failed horribly, knowing what a security nightmare NPM
modules are and having that embedded in my browser is 110% turning me off from
ever wanting to install Vivaldi on anything that's not securely sandboxed away
from the world at large.

------
petepete
I must admit, I do like the thought of `theme-color` support being integrated
into desktop browsers. It works really well on mobile. I know it's a more
complex task on the desktop where there are a multitude of browser
customisiations and themes to take into consideration, but this looks like a
good attempt.

[https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/design-and-
ui...](https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/design-and-ui/browser-
customization/theme-color?hl=en)

------
kevinSuttle
A closed-source browser that's built on Chromium. In 2016. Why.

~~~
nacs
I see the source here:

[https://vivaldi.com/source/](https://vivaldi.com/source/)

~~~
gsnedders
That's only the partly LGPL Chromium code.

From [https://vivaldi.net/userblogs/entry/a-few-words-about-
open-s...](https://vivaldi.net/userblogs/entry/a-few-words-about-open-source-
vivaldi)

> Our source code package is available here: vivaldi.com/source. This links to
> a copy of the Chromium source code with the changes we made to allow our
> HTML/CSS/JS UI to run.

> All our changes to Chromium source code are under a BSD license and hence
> can read by anyone. The details are explained in the the README and LICENSE
> files, within that package.

> In addition, all of our UI code (included in normal packages) is written in
> plain, readable text. This means that all parts of Vivaldi are full audit-
> able and open from that perspective.

------
partycoder
There is a lot of security considerations to make a browser. JavaScript based
technologies are not well known for their security.

~~~
oblio
In practice any kind of technology is only as good as its developers.

And I doubt that the security record of "Javascript based technologies" is
better or worse than the security record of "C/C++ based technologies", for
that matter.

As a purely theoretical point, "Javascript based technologies" have the
advantage of automatic memory management, which, again, theoretically, removes
an attack vector almost entirely.

Getting back on track, a browser is engine + UI. Vivaldi uses Chromium as the
engine. HTML/JS are used just for the UI.

~~~
jeffreyjflim
I am waiting for the Rust-based Firefox :}

~~~
steveklabnik
Firefox 45, the current release, has a tiny bit on Linux and OS X. In a few
releases, it will be on Windows as well.

I don't know what percentage you need to have it be "based", but we're getting
there...

------
korginator
I've been on Vivaldi from the beta days, and am glad to see it's been steadily
improving.

On my Mac, it's extremely responsive, probably as good as Safari. It feels
snappier than chrome or (god forbid) firefox. Page load speeds feel quicker
than other browsers. It's as stable as anything else I've used. The chrome
extensions I use all work well.

All in all, a very positive experience. I just switched to Vivaldi as my main
browser after using v1.2 for a couple of days now.

I only wish they bring some of the old opera features like text reflow, user
CSS for page rendering, etc.

------
krabpaaltje
After using it for 10 minutes

\- Chrome plugins

\- tabs configurable at the side instead of on top

\- native (?) mousegestures

So far so good!

~~~
hs86
I remember seeing the mouse gestures in Opera and wanting the same feature in
my Firefox. I used this in Firefox with an extension for several years and
later did the same with Chrome. Now with Vivaldi I accidentally performed a
mouse gesture due to muscle memory and to my surprise it worked out of the
box.

With the same people behind it this browser seems to be the real successor for
Opera. :)

------
thebigspacefuck
I was excited about Vivaldi until I had to get on IRC to ask how to pull tabs
out of and back into a window. I've been loving Opera lately.

~~~
kevindeasis
Funny that I've just deleted Opera a few weeks ago and possibly will not
install it again. Since they've sold their company

------
wildchild
OMG yet another desktop application in javascript.

~~~
oblio
What's so wrong about that? All the heavy browser lifting is done by the
browser engine, which is native, and everything else is just... chrome. Which
doesn't really have huge performance requirements.

~~~
bob8
UI is very latency sensitive, even a couple of frames of delay can be
detrimental to the feel of a UI.

~~~
dvdgsng
Comparing the delay of the UI with many tabs (30+) Vivaldi wins easily over
Firefox and Chrome.

~~~
bob8
I did not say Vivaldi was slow, just that performance is relevant in UI. I'll
give Vivaldi a try.

------
asksol
I really like the browser, but still doesn't work with Apple Keychain so using
it is not an option here. Guess I'm too lazy but it would take weeks to
migrate over, and then I'd need to store the passwords in dual locations,
which seems like a bad idea.

------
tqkxzugoaupvwqr
What is the experience on laptops? I tried Vivaldi 1.0 or 1.1 and it drained
the battery like nothing I have seen before as far as browsers go. Not sure if
that is a Chromium or Vivaldi issue.

~~~
Sylos
I haven't yet seen any benchmarks for Vivaldi, but yeah, Chrome/-ium is known
for criminally eating through battery life.

------
walkingolof
Recently Vivaldi have started to hang after opening the lock screen in Fedora
(23), you have to wait for the Force Quit Window to restart it.

Otherwise, excellent browser.

------
tachyons
They should make their browser more native to os in look

~~~
dzek69
they dont want to. but you can enable native window decorator from your os.
theming (for icons) will be available some day in the future

------
kevindeasis
How is the memory & cpu usage compared to GChrome? Especially if you have 20+
tabs open

Can you use chrome plugins for vivaldi?

~~~
rikrassen
You can use chrome plugins/the chrome webstore and the devs have actually
pushed bug fixes that address compatibility with prominent plugins, i.e.
Chromecast and LastPass

------
mrmondo
Where can I find the source for the project?

~~~
tachyons
This isn't an open source project

~~~
dzek69
this is open source.

[https://vivaldi.com/source/](https://vivaldi.com/source/)

~~~
pritambaral
That is visible source. Without a license, it's not "open source".

Nor is the source provided there complete. The last time they were asked, they
said only the C++ code is open and available to the public.

~~~
striking
It's the LGPL parts of Chromium that they needed to modify to run their
engine. So it's LGPL'd, but only the specific parts that they need to release.

~~~
fapjacks
Right. They're waving that around like they're saying the stuff is open
source, and it's _very much not_ open source. Building a bunch of stuff on top
of an open source project and then claiming your source is open because some
base amount of the source forced them under its license to be open is a total
cop-out. No, Vivaldi is _not_ open source, and no they do not have plans to
ever open source Vivaldi.

------
djloche
Vivaldi is my new browser of choice.

------
throwaway0209
But does it have waitblock?

