
On Loneliness - dominotw
https://krishnamurti-teachings.info/book/commentaries-on-living-first-series.html#loneliness
======
antisocial
The following is a gem - this has been my guiding star for more than a decade.

The self hides in many ways, under every stone, the self can hide in
compassion, going to India and looking after poor people, because the self is
attached to some idea, faith, conclusion, belief, which makes me compassionate
because I love Jesus or Krishna, and I go up to heaven. The self has many
masks, the mask of meditation, the mask of achieving the highest, the mask
that I am enlightened, that “I know of what I speak.” All this concern about
humanity is another mask. So one has to have an extraordinary, subtle, quick
brain to see where it is hiding. It requires great attention, watching,
watching, watching. On Mind and Thought, p 133

~~~
dean
So...everything you do, no matter how selfless, is actually selfish if you
look closely enough?

~~~
quakeguy
All you touch, and all you see is all your life will ever be.

-Pink Floyd, TdSotM

~~~
andrepd
Hmm. What do you reckon is the meaning of this line?

~~~
quakeguy
Whatever you read into it i guess. That's the power of it.

~~~
justinpombrio
No. Read the damn words. It's not even that obtuse.

~~~
quakeguy
Touch sth. with your hands? Or touch it with your mind? Is all everything? Or
just the things we can remember? Do your eyes see everything, or only the
important parts? Do you remember every second of your life? Can you remember
everything? Read my damn words twice.

------
tech_browser
Krishnamurti's teachings are based on scriptures such as Upanishads and Gita.
He was averse to the notion of having a Guru (or teacher) because the teachers
he had seen in his time were very steeped in orthodoxy, despite their
learning. He was also against quoting verses from scriptures because he wanted
to break away from the traditional teacher-student model.

His teachings are appealing to many people who do not have a sufficient
background in the study of Vedanta (the culmination or final word of vedas).
There are many contemporary teachers whose teaching is similar to that of JK.
Eckhart Tolle, Mooji, Robert Adams, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi etc.

To appreciate the teachings of any of the above spiritual giants, one needs to
have an intense/burning desire to seek the Self. Once it is realized, it puts
an immediate end to all suffering and seeking. The glory of the Self has been
described in great detail in Upanishads and Gita. There are supplementary
texts that also discuss the approaches to attain it.

~~~
ZenoArrow
>"There are supplementary texts that also discuss the approaches to attain
it."

The more interesting question is, why are you trying to attain it? What is it
that makes people seek enlightenment?

~~~
armitron
The initial impetus is not really important. It may have been something as
trivial as a book, or a friend, or somebody on TV. People start all sorts of
pursuits for all sorts of silly reasons, and usually end up abandoning them
for the next-best-thing to come along. Promises of a better life ("the end of
suffering!") are tempting to the unfortunate and downtrodden.

A better question to ask is what _keeps_ people dedicated to this quest? And
of course I mean the ones who end up fulfilling it or getting close.

Once you see you can't unsee. Once these practices (that are numerous and not
constrained to the East) are followed, things happen. You catch glimpses of
the absolute. Mystical experiences and synchronicities become common. The
intuitive aspect of yourself comes to the foreground and it's the one that
drives this process. One gets all the validation one needs, not from teachers
or gurus, but by direct experiential knowledge.

Once on that path, it's hard for someone to turn back. He'd have to delude
himself by repeating lies often enough that he'd come to believe them (what
are beliefs but thoughts you keep having?).

~~~
ZenoArrow
>"One gets all the validation one needs, not from teachers or gurus, but by
direct experiential knowledge."

Sure, I have no problem with that. However, if you let your past experiences
define who you are, it'll always limit you, even if your past experiences
include 'glimpses of the absolute'.

Simply put, the most common mode of human existence is that of a storyteller.
If you see connections between event A and event B you're telling a story.
There's no harm in that, it's a natural part of who we are. Of course there
are moments where the self fades and the story has less of a structured
narrative, but we still find ways to tie it together.

I like to ask myself this, if someone achieves enlightenment, what do they do
with the rest of their life? Are they going to spend their time maximising
their new found connection to their senses? What gives pleasure to someone who
minimises personal attachment?

~~~
armitron
I couldn't say since I'm not living with that realization.

Here are the words of someone who does:
[http://biroco.com/journal.htm](http://biroco.com/journal.htm)

~~~
ZenoArrow
This is a goof example of what I was referring to...

>"Push the details of life back into the mist and just sit with knowing that
'I am'. Why's that of any great interest? I'll tell you why. Because I didn't
know I was, and then I did, and that amazing fact is somewhat skirted over
being concerned about anything else."

This is the storyteller considering that 'I am God' makes everything else seem
trivial in comparison. Why would you do ordinary human things when you see
yourself as a God?

Ultimately it just seems like a waste of time to me, to deny yourself the
richness of external experience just to trip on the magnificence of your self-
image.

~~~
state_less
Why bifurcate into the position, all things are god, or the converse position,
no things are god, Storytelling, Truth, Falsity. Even after the most profound
proof realized, you stop to get a drink of water.

~~~
ZenoArrow
My point is, so called enlightenment does not necessarily lead people to
living a richer life. Paradoxically, even though enlightenment is meant to
remove burdens, some "enlightened" people treat it as a burden in its own
right, even though they wouldn't necessarily admit this.

------
rglover
Awesome to see Krishnamurti on HN. If anyone is interested, his book _Freedom
from the Known_ is highly recommended: [https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Known-
Jiddu-Krishnamurti/dp/0...](https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Known-Jiddu-
Krishnamurti/dp/0060648082).

~~~
fsiefken
Yes, it's great, I read most of his books when I was a teenager.

~~~
DesiLurker
yes, likewise! stopped reading after a few years for common reasons. its been
ages so a good reminder, thanks OP.

------
blueprint
Of course I'm going to get flamed for this but this guy has written a bunch of
nonsense.

"Love and emptiness cannot abide together; when there is the feeling of
loneliness, love is not. "

1\. Emptiness is not the same thing as loneliness.

2\. If you feel anything bad while you think you feel empty then that's not
actual emptiness.

3\. When you practice true love for others it makes you lonely because it
makes everyone abandon you. How does he reconcile those? He can't.

"You will ask, then what is love? Love is a state of being in which thought is
not; but the very definition of love is a process of thought, and so it is not
love."

That's not a definition. That's coincident phenomena with an effect of true
love. But other things can make you stop "thinking". Such as losing oneself.
Or taking drugs habitually. QED.

Only a person who has lost his own self can say the sorts of things that
Krishnamurti said. Please: Beware of everything. He did not have a real
enlightenment. When you ask a real enlightened teacher what love is, they can
tell you on the spot. Love is blessing. Blessings are that which enable or
cause a good result for something or for it to change for the better. That's a
wholly completely different quality of definition than spending hundreds of
pages making up one's own words for the purpose of instilling his spirit into
others. The only reason I can give the correct definition while Krishnamurti
could not is that I learned it from someone who actually knew and could verify
his answers.

~~~
projektir
I'm having similar problems understanding your post as I do with understanding
his writings.

This discussion would have probably been a lot more productive if either of
you defined what in the world do you mean by "love"/"true love", because
you're using a lot of the emotional load typically placed there to define
concepts that seem to be different.

~~~
blueprint
> I'm having similar problems understanding your post as I do with
> understanding his writings.

How do you confirm the similarity of the problems? One thing's for sure - I
can help you get more concrete understanding the more you ask me concrete
questions and check. The same cannot be said of Krishnamurti's teaching as his
words cannot be verified (they lack verifiable problems). Feel free to ask me
any questions you would like. If you want to do something good for yourself or
society I'll be happy to see if I can help identify the causes and the way to
the result you want.

> This discussion would have probably been a lot more productive if either of
> you defined what in the world do you mean by "love"/"true love"

You probably just missed it, but I certainly did define it concretely… unless
you replied before reading my entire post. You have to be on your guard for
whether you can confirm how well you really understand the definition. It took
me a long time to see it, myself.

~~~
ZenoArrow
>"You probably just missed it, but I certainly did define it concretely"

Is this the definition you're referring to?

>"Love is blessing. Blessings are that which enable or cause a good result for
something or for it to change for the better."

Has this view of 'love is blessing' changed your life? What has it helped you
with?

~~~
blueprint
Yes, that's correct. Excellent questions. If you want to understand the
definition of love correctly you need to learn conscience and justice first of
all. Conscience is the way to brighten one's mind, and justice is the way to
brighten our world. Is there any greater blessing than living with a bright
mind in a bright world ?

~~~
ZenoArrow
Okay, let's say I'd like to learn about justice, what is it that one needs to
learn about justice?

~~~
blueprint
Like in math, answers are made by problems/questions. Literally cannot get a
certain solution without correctly understanding the problem. So, the quality
of answers depends on the quality of questions. The more accurately,
precisely, and realistically you can point out what you want to know the more
specifically an enlightened being would be able to answer you. Please note
this is my answer to the specific question you asked. If you want to know the
definition of justice, its function, how it can be practiced or generated,
etc., I'll need to know what you have in mind.

------
athyuttamre
Interesting to see JK on HN. I went to the first boarding school he founded,
Rishi Valley, in southern India. Certainly the most transformative part of my
life, although we weren't exposed to much of his philosophy. He also founded
the Oak Grove School in Ojai, California.

~~~
throw_rv
Was waiting to see rvites join this thread. 2 in so far! (We meet on HN again
atty.)

~~~
vamega
Well, I guess I make three then.

------
antisocial
He's the boss. He despises idol worship, but if I have to name one person that
has the most/best influence on my life, this is the one (for the past twenty
years). I highly recommend his work.

------
nabla9
As with all enlightened superstar spiritual teachers, just don't look his life
too closely or you will be disappointed. Even people who start good and their
feet on the ground (like Krishnamurti) end up full of shit when they get too
much wrong kind of attention. [https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-shadow-side-
krishnamurti/](https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-shadow-side-krishnamurti/)

“If you want to lose your religion, make friends with the priest.”

As someone who's second career is basically meditating (in terms of time and
effort) I acknowledge the value and importance of having personal teacher as a
guide. On the other hand I strongly warn about getting into trap of thinking
them as something else than specialists that can help you with some issues.

'After the Ecstasy, the Laundry: How the Heart Grows Wise on the Spiritual
Path' by Jack Kornfield is essential reading on the subject.

~~~
dominotw
>enlightened superstar spiritual teachers

Where did you get this. Show me one reference to where he claimed

1\. he is enlightened ( whatever that means)

2\. he is a superstar

3\. he is teacher

In fact , he goes out of his way to say the disclaimer that he is not some
sort a guru/teacher and ppl should not follow his words blindly.

What does his personal life have to do with anything? Do you have any
criticism of what he actually said other than random ad hominem attacks?

~~~
johnmaguire2013
Well the linked domain is krishnamurti-teachings.info.

~~~
dominotw
It's a third party site.

~~~
johnmaguire2013
Okay, so try his official site:
[http://jkrishnamurti.org/default.php](http://jkrishnamurti.org/default.php)

> This website is the official repository of the teachings of J. Krishnamurti,
> made possible by the Krishnamurti Foundations (KFT, KFA, KFI, FKL) © 2017

~~~
praneshp
<Did not know about Krishnamurti before this article on HN>

That is still someone else making a website, not Krishnamurti himself.

~~~
johnmaguire2013
Sure, because he is dead. I also found this:
[https://www.kfa.org/faq.php#mission](https://www.kfa.org/faq.php#mission)

Ultimately, I can't prove anything, but given that everyone is "dispelling his
teachings" and states that he wanted his "teachings" to live on, etc. --
oftentimes in the same paragraph of "but he wasn't a teacher" \-- makes this
whole thing seem really silly to me.

------
eternalban
I've read Krishnamurthy and frankly it is hard to tell how much of his output
is genuine spiritual insight instead of Theosophic hand-me-down.

One thing is for sure, his images in old age (at least to me) convey a
melancholic doubt as opposed to the expected beatific enlightened soul. YMMV.

~~~
orasis
The mind of a motivated seeker tends to be tormented. Perhaps melancholic
doubt is a significant brain chemistry upgrade.

~~~
eternalban
Seeker, sure. Guru, no.

[p.s.]

The Sufi master Attar [1] wrote an entire book [2] -- using the symbol of
"flyers" or "birds" \-- describing the stages of seekers' path to
enlightenment. The mataphor used was 'seven valleys of love' [3] encountered
on the way to the 'King of the Birds', each with their own distinct psyho-
spiritual state and requirements.

The journey has stages but for some there is a 'successful' end.

"If he who sets out on this way will not engage himself wholly and completely
he will never be free from the sadness and melancholy which weigh him down."

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_of_Nishapur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_of_Nishapur)

[2]: "Expression-Logic of the Birds" aka "Conference of the Birds"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conference_of_the_Birds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conference_of_the_Birds)

[3]:
[http://chippit.tripod.com/seven_valleys.html](http://chippit.tripod.com/seven_valleys.html)

~~~
orasis
An alternative perspective is that "meta-okayness" might be a goal to aim for.
Can I be fundamentally OK even when I don't feel OK? Could I be OK with
depression? Could I be OK with sadness? Could I be OK with being human?

Maybe instead of needing to be more enlightened, I just need a nap?

~~~
eternalban
On a _personal level_ "to thine own self be true". Definitely.

But if you are "depressed", "sad", and "don't feel OK" and rather take a "nap"
instead of striving for enlightenment, you shouldn't go around giving talks on
spiritual matters as a "teacher".

------
wakkaflokka
This is interesting, but I find most texts like this mentally stimulating but
lacking in practical suggestions that I have time to understand. Any
suggestions for similar work but with a more practical bend to it?

~~~
Nition
A lot of the stuff Derek Sivers writes on his blog[1] is thoughtful and
practical writing on parts of life that might fit that category.

He also does some really good summary notes of books he's read.

[1] [https://sivers.org/](https://sivers.org/)

------
vram22
Anecdote: Years ago I attended a talk by him at a large open ground in
Chennai. Many people including some bigwigs were present. A few memories:

\- at one point he said, "burn all books, including those of the speaker /
author". He used to refer to himself like that, not with "I" or "me" or
"mine".

\- at one point, in some context, he used the words "over the table, under the
table" \- before he could even complete the sentence, huge knowing / guilty
laughter erupted in the audience.

~~~
the_nozzle
Knowing that "Wherever they burn books, in the end will also burn human
beings." (Heinrich Heine) I am curious of the context ..

~~~
vram22
Interesting question; I did not think anyone would interpret my quote of JK in
the way you seem to have. But yours is certainly a valid possible
interpretation, though not the right one, IMO.

To make it clear: I do not think he meant it at all in the way you think -
your interpretation is something like the burning of the Library of Alexandria
or other such vandalizing acts. I am pretty sure JK meant it something like
this:

Do not (slavishly) rely on books to form your opinions; think (critically) for
yourself.

Nothing else.

Buddha is supposed to have said much the same - per a book I read:

Appo deepo bhava

which is Pali or Prakrit for:

Be a light unto yourself.

Edit: orasis (sibling comment) probably said it better than me; it's just that
in Indian thought, knowledge (jnana) is supposed to be one of the paths.
Bhakti (devotion, e.g. Meera) and karma (action, e.g. Arjuna) are two among
some others.

------
uptownfunk
Ah I remember discovering JK many years ago. Definitely one of the more
enlightened and aware among us.

I think Ive had the most potent personal and spiritual growth when I spent
time alone with myself.

------
andybak
For anyone not familiar with Krishnamurti his relationship and work with the
physicist David Bohm is worthy of note.

I can't find a good summary link I can vouch for but google for it yourself.

~~~
happy-go-lucky
David Bohm and Jiddu Krishnamurti Timeline: [http://dbohm.com/david-bohm-
jiddu-krishnamurti-timeline.html](http://dbohm.com/david-bohm-jiddu-
krishnamurti-timeline.html)

David Bohm's Introduction to Jiddu Krishnamurti: [http://dbohm.com/david-bohm-
introduction-to-krishnamurti.htm...](http://dbohm.com/david-bohm-introduction-
to-krishnamurti.html)

THE BOHM–KRISHNAMURTI PROJECT:
[http://bohmkrishnamurti.com/](http://bohmkrishnamurti.com/)

------
forestriver
Reminds me in an oblique way of some of Hanshan's poetry:

    
    
      I usually live in seclusion  
      but sometimes I go to Kuoching  
      to call on the Venerable Feng-kan (pickup)  
      or to visit master Shih-te (big stick)  
      but I go back to Cold Cliff alone  
      observing an unspoken agreement  
      I follow a stream that has no spring  
      the spring is dry but not the stream
    

\- Hanshan, #44, The Collected Songs of Cold Mountain by Red Pine

------
CalRobert
I would like to add more to this conversation, but don't know that I have much
to offer beyond what others have said.

There are two quotations regarding this topic that others here may like,
though. One is (in my view) about the infinity of potential relationships that
pass every day, and the other about trying to connect to someone else while we
are limited as corporeal beings.

... "The barber was cutting our hair, and our eyes were closed - as they are
so likely to be. We had passed into that deep and bountiful world of repose
which one finds only at the end of the tonsorial trail. The scissors,
stroking, had entered into the deliberate phase well behind the ears; our head
was bowed, and peace had settled over the hair, with only the asthmatic
inhalations of the barber marking life's beat. Deep in a world of our own, we
heard, from far away, a voice saying goodbye. It was a customer of the shop,
leaving. "Goodbye," he said to the barbers. "Goodbye," echoed the barbers. And
without ever returning to consciousness, or opening our eyes, or thinking, we
joined in. "Goodbye," we said, before we could catch ourself. Then, all at
once, the sadness of the occasion struck us, the awful dolor of bidding
farewell to someone we had never seen. We have since wondered what he looked
like, and whether it was really goodbye.

-E.B. White, "The Sadness of Parting", The New Yorker, May 4 1935, page 9.

"We suffer a lot in our society from loneliness. So much of our life is an
attempt to not be lonely: 'Let's talk to each other; let's do things together
so we won't be lonely.' And yet inevitably, we are really alone in these human
forms. We can pretend; we can entertain each other; but that's about the best
we can do. When it comes to the actual experience of life, we're very much
alone; and to expect anyone else to take away our loneliness is asking too
much." \- Ajahn Sumedho, The Way It Is

~~~
mdekkers
_When it comes to the actual experience of life, we 're very much alone; and
to expect anyone else to take away our loneliness is asking too much._

Sounds to me like he hasn't met the right people yet.

------
dziungles
I have first discovered Eckhart Tolle, then Krishnamurti. Great insights, he
always talks about the root of the problems.

------
pramalin
I have read many of his books and listened to his video talks with his
followers while I was in Chennai. The "Commentaries on Living" series are easy
to read and my favorites. [http://www.jiddu-
krishnamurti.net/en](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en) [http://www.jiddu-
krishnamurti.net/en/commentaries-on-living-...](http://www.jiddu-
krishnamurti.net/en/commentaries-on-living-series-1)

His teachings are just the opposite of Gita (and other Hindu scriptures),
which prescribes caste based society as the act of God.

I moved on from his abstract teachings to practical life changing works of
Osho, Ambedhkar and finally to E.V.Ramasamy (Periyar).

~~~
tech_browser
Gita doesn't say that God created the caste system. The four "varnas" are
loosely translated as "castes" but that is not quite so. A varna is defined by
an individual's occupation. Those who teach are brahmanas, those engaged in
ruling the kingdom and protecting people are kshatriyas, those involved in
business are vaishyas and those performing jobs like construction, farming
etc. are shudras.

It is unfortunate that many consider a "varna" to be the same as "caste". The
latter is a degeneration found aplenty in the Indian society whereas the
former is simply a way of classifying people based on their occupation.

There is no parallel to the teachings of Gita. In 18 chapters, it covers all
aspects of God, universe and individual and also the means of attaining
liberation.

~~~
DesiLurker
> There is no parallel to the teachings of Gita..

Well there is Ashtavakra Gita, personally I liked the asthavakra more as its
context is more refined.

~~~
tech_browser
Yes, Ashtavakra Gita is a vedantic text that focuses on describing the
absolute truth.

Bhagavad Gita is more versatile since it covers the many aspects of action
(karma), devotion (bhakti) and knowledge (jnana). The highest truth about the
Self is described in a few verses that are sprinkled throughout the text and
many other aspects such as creation of universe, modes of mind, action,
renunciation, imbibing godly qualities, shunning demonic qualities etc. are
all found in it. Shankaracharya's commentary on it makes it very special too.

------
Nomentatus
There are many wonderful spiritual texts. This is blather. Most primates
experience loneliness because, in the wild, they can't survive long alone,
much less breed. The best you can say for this text is that it gives the
readers extra heads, a pejorative Zen phrase meaning that it provides readers
with an intellectual illusion of understanding that will delay genuine
understanding even if they do meditate.

I'm very willing to assent to the idea that spiritual masters experience less
loneliness, but it ain't 'cause they read this sort of pap.

~~~
mixermf
> I'm very willing to assent to the idea that spiritual masters experience
> less loneliness

Chogyam Trunpga, founder of the Shambhala Buddhist tradition, said
"Egolessness is a concept, a philosophy, but loneliness is a reality that you
experience. A feeling of loneliness is part of the journey. As for me, I feel
that way constantly, and I think it's a very healthy feeling, a very real
feeling."

[https://books.google.com/books?id=9QHEAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT214&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=9QHEAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT214&lpg=PT214&dq=Egolessness+is+a+concept,+a+philosophy,+but+loneliness+is+a+reality+that+you+experience&source=bl&ots=DPsPMrssWB&sig=druXaPalHAZmdd9Evc1GjajhHxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk6YWW9I7SAhWHqFQKHQqVDxUQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q&f=false)

~~~
Nomentatus
I should probably said less acutely or differently, Zen speaks of a kind of
wistfulness-about-the-world that pervades the enlightened (word.)

------
fsiefken
I was a big fan of Krishnamurti in my teenage years, still am, even though I
now think religion and ritual can also be a good away to approach 'Truth'. For
those knowing a bit about this guy, this is a nice and humorous 'skeptical'
way of looking at Jiddu. In Jiddu's spirit, stripping him of his guru-ship
[http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/krishnamu...](http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/krishnamurti.html)

------
problems
How does "spiritual" junk like this get on the hackernews front page? Does a
substantial portion of the readership follow woo like this?

I think it's time to do some bayesian filtering or something.

~~~
gizmodo59
> "spiritual" junk

Have you read the article? Understanding how things work is one of the
fundamental quests of humanity. It might not be a scientific journal, but
calling it "spiritual" junk is unfair.

~~~
problems
This is not "understanding how things work" in a meaningful technical way, but
in a non-testable, non-provable, "spiritual" way.

One which I don't care much for and which I find frequently misleading.

~~~
EricDeb
Spiritual inquiry of this nature is not completely illogical. It's frequently
shown that the free will humans believe they have is an illusion, and the
topic of identification of the ego is revered enough to be included in
psychiatric textbooks. The concept of consciousness is very pertinent to AI. I
believe these topics are relevant enough.

~~~
problems
> Spiritual inquiry of this nature is not completely illogical.

Source? I cannot name a time when it has produced meaningful and repeatable
results. Therefore I'd say it's illogical.

~~~
placebo
I assume you trust logic and empirical tests. Here's something that is both
repeatable, and as empirical as it gets. Consider every instance of knowing
anything "objectively". You will notice that consistently it is always first
and foremost a subjective experience. You can't get around it. Thought is very
quick to dissect, categorise, extrapolate etc. and then you create a division
of the thinker, which you take to be yourself, and the things "out there"
which are separate from you. You take your understanding of the world as
absolute truth, while spiritual giants, dared to dig much deeper in a manner
no less scientific than the greatest scientists the west has known, only
directed it inwards instead of outwards and arrived at understandings which
are no less remarkable than what scientists have. The difference is that they
can't demonstrate it by getting a rover to mars, but by becoming totally free
of any form of suffering caused by an incorrect understanding of reality,
which I dare say is at least as impressive.

~~~
problems
They say they're free from suffering, maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but
they can't tell me how to repeat that in a way I can reproduce for myself.
Which is my entire point. Maybe something worked for them, but won't work for
me or vice versa.

Results that can't be replicated and aren't predictive aren't really results
at all. Not in a logical or meaningful way. They're just claims. Bizarre and
baseless claims.

~~~
placebo
> They say they're free from suffering, maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but
> they can't tell me how to repeat that in a way I can reproduce for myself.

If that were true, I'd take the same position as you do, but the good ones
never tell you to trust them. In fact they insist that you look for yourself
with brutal honesty and never trust any guru on their word. In fact, I see
their conduct as the epitome of the scientific method, only directed at
understanding what's at the core of the subjective experience. What
experiments have you tried so far to claim that these are bizarre and baseless
claims?

------
lngnmn
Freedom From The Known is much more actual.)

------
slater
Hugged to death. Anyone have a cached copy?

~~~
acqq
I haven't seen the site from the link at the time it was accessible, but
analyzing the link it seems the site contained the text of the book
"Commentaries on Living" by Jiddu Krishnamurti:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_Living](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentaries_on_Living)

Moreover, it probably linked to the chapter "Loneliness" from the first book,
which can be found online in various forms, including on this nice site
(Chapter 42 `Loneliness'):

[http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-
tex...](http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-
text.php?tid=25&chid=61636)

Also see my other comment here for the context.

------
tzakrajs
Tl;dr: there is a difference between love and codependence -- loneliness is a
belwether for codependence

------
0xFFC
I am very curious about what people on HN do think about

1.OSHO

2.Sadhguru

~~~
eternalban
There are quite a lot of gems out there in various cultures. Have you read
Chuang Tzu? He's deeply insightful.

But a word of caution that the effect of mere words wears off, and more
seriously, it is trivial to misunderstand the intended meaning of these
various masters. When I was young, it chafed me to read about the novice-
master relationship (which is stressed in almost all spiritual schools
regardless of time or place), but in mid life I've come to accept that it is
truly a necessity if one is seeking truth and wishes to arrive.

~~~
contingencies
Experience is the master and the truth.

 _He who controls the data controls the learner._ \- @pmddomingos

~~~
eternalban
> He who controls the data controls the learner.

"Have you considered the case of him who has taken his own lower self for his
god ..." \- Q.45:23

~~~
contingencies
Fatalism doesn't really appeal.

~~~
eternalban
You are making an assumption regarding the balance between predetermination
and free will. Entirely your reading.

------
maaaats
Is there a point to the paragraph about the calf, squirrel, lizard, trees
etc.?

~~~
padolsey
I saw it as an attempt to draw a contrast between the internal struggle of the
mother (and that of every human suffering from loneliness) and the relative
placidity and pleasant obliviousness of nature. To me, it highlighted the
power of mindfulness.

------
projektir
There's always something odd to me about teachings in this category. For one,
it's often very hard to tell where they're really going, what they're
proposing, and the verbose language with sprinklings of mysticism doesn't
really help. For another, they often take things that are fairly omnipresent,
and then say the person shouldn't feel them. The utter focus often seems to be
on the person feeling them, as if that is the biggest crime.

Such philosophies often come with implicit assumptions that, say, desire,
self-concern, ambition, etc., are all negative things, which seems to be
accepted in some circles, even though, to me, that _is_ the claim that needs
proving. Strangely enough, despite this being widely accepted by most people
you ask, the same people don't live that way, which makes it look like an
extensive signaling operation.

The commentary is gigantic but I'll try to do my best to show what I mean.

> 1\. He said he was obsessed by stupid little things, and that these
> obsessions constantly changed. He would worry over some imaginary physical
> defect, and within a few hours his worry would have fixed itself upon
> another incident or thought. He seemed to live from one anxious obsession to
> another. To overcome these obsessions, he continued, he would consult books,
> or talk over his problem with a friend, and he had also been to a
> psychologist; but somehow he had found no relief. Even after a serious and
> absorbing meeting, these obsessions would immediately come on. If he found
> the cause, would it put an end to them?

> 2\. Does discovery of a cause bring freedom from the effect? Will knowledge
> of the cause destroy the result? We know the causes, both economic and
> psychological, of war, yet we encourage barbarity and self-destruction.
> After all, our motive in searching for the cause is the desire to be rid of
> the effect. This desire is another form of resistance or condemnation; and
> when there is condemnation, there is no understanding.

> “Then what is one to do?” he asked.

> 3\. Why is the mind dominated by these trivial and stupid obsessions? To ask
> “why” is not to search for the cause as something apart from yourself which
> you have to find; it is merely to uncover the ways of your own thinking. So,
> why is the mind occupied in this manner? Is it not because it is
> superficial, shallow, petty, and therefore concerned with its own
> attractions?

1\. An exposition that I've seen in a lot of sub-philosophies or religions of
this variety: a person has feelings, those feelings bother the person, and
those feelings need to be corrected. For one, the exposition is extremely
vague. What physical defects? Was this always a character trait of the person?
Have those actions helped them in some way before?

It seems likely that this is a feature of the brain, and it could work for
good or for ill. Without context, it's very hard to tell, sounds like
hypochondria. I'd say that paragraph is very vacuous. But it seems a lot of
people relate to it, which goes to the next question: if it's a problem many
people have, why is it a problem with those many people? Also note that many
people have done away with this problem, at rates that are likely comparable
to those of improvement via reading such teachings, but they are not mentioned
here.

2\. Again, very vacuous. The benefits of finding a cause are obvious enough
that I don't need to outline them. It is too bad that we don't pay attention
to causes of bad things, although I don't see how that's a good argument for
not seeking causes. Finding the correct cause is very helpful at times. It may
also be very difficult to do so, which may be an argument against trying to
find, but not finding. But trying to find a cause and failing to find it is
indeed a stressful task, but in that of itself there's nothing particularly
wrong.

3\. The claim appears to be that that the cause of the obsessive thoughts is
the person's mind, and to figure out where they're coming from is for the
person to understand their own mind. That's well and good. Then it jumps
straight to:

> Is it not because it is superficial, shallow, petty, and therefore concerned
> with its own attractions?

Eh, OK? I thought condemnation was bad? That seems quite a jump, and, more
importantly, it doesn't really say anything. Those are all fairly loaded terms
that require a proper context. The poor fellow, trained to take attacks on
himself and his mind in stride, just accepts the claim. In the end, though, we
have learned nothing.

A staggering amount of this style of spirituality seems to follow this
formula: person comes with troubling thought patterns, the other person tells
them that those thought patterns are bad and unjustified, and then the person
leaves with "I have odd thought patterns because my mind is <bad>". It's not
much progress from the tautological conclusion: "My mind has odd thought
patterns because it has odd thought patterns". Something that can be
summarized as another common maxim: stop thinking about things or asking
questions.

Similarly, some after that seems to suggest accepting things, which reminds me
of stoicism. But it's not enough to state that one should accept things, it
needs to be proven. Again the author seems to be piggybacking on preexisting
agreements where Buddhist or stoic positions are perceived as wise so he
doesn't need to defend them.

A lot of text but nothing concrete to hold on to if I want to avoid injecting
my own thoughts into it, which, fortunately, jar too much to do it
automatically. This appears to be more a stream of consciousness. One could
try to extract something from it, but it would be of their own doing. I wonder
if that's the appeal.

That being said, with the current lack of better options, if you want to quiet
some thoughts and calm down, I'd just suggest to try Buddhism. It has a lot of
the same problems since it's basically saying the same thing, but there's at
least a method to the madness.

------
protossrulus
This...feels very much like the Buddha's teaching.

------
crestedtazo
This website was blocked on my company's filter for being Extreme.

