
Australia tried to monitor Indonesian president's phone - mafro
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/18/australia-tried-to-monitor-indonesian-presidents-phone
======
kevcampb
_" Asked about the spying revelations in a separate interview, Abbott said:
"To use the term spying, it's kind of loaded language … researching maybe.
Talking to people. Understanding what's going on.""_

Is this the onion?

~~~
boogydown2
For anyone who doesn't know, Tony Abbot == George Bush Jr.

He's incredible repugnant & stupid. It is definitely damning when someone like
him actually could get elected. What a time to live in...

~~~
girvo
I for one, am leaving. Wasn't born here anyway, if I'm not careful they'll
consider me fishing in the river in my tinny "illegal boat person", etc. sigh.
What happened? :(

~~~
boogydown2
Globalisation of western politics? IDK but I feel like every single country is
trying to emulate each other; Particularly America. I personally would like to
leave but because of the absurd immigration policies of the countries I'd
prefer, I cannot afford to leave or scared to go through some arduous
transfer. Why does everything have to have this bureaucratic boloney in the
way?

I just want to be somewhere that doesn't have some group thinking they are at
war with some people for some reason. So they then can
repress/punish/victimise them for some form of gain (power, greed, jealousy,
stupidity, etc). All the while they do this under the guise of their
_morality_ to _protect_ their people.

A man can dream.

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thejosh
Even aussies can't make nice slides...

[http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-
images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/20...](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-
images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/18/1384738604789/Slide5DSD_cropped.jpg)

~~~
girvo
Come on, us Aussies are just dying to become "Little America" (at least at the
political level). Of course that goes through to terrible slides ;)

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tn13
I am not sure what is there that this makes a news (and that too on HN).
Spying is a very old tool in the art of statecraft. It is neither inherently
immoral nor illegal.

Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid
argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th
amendment.

The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus
building on technologies that are more and more government proof and
beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and
nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors,
bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.

~~~
danenania
Of course spying is immoral. I sure wouldn't want to be the friend or partner
of someone who thinks it isn't.

Torture and genocide are also very old tools in the 'art' of statecraft, so
that's not much of an endorsement.

If the supporters of this stuff are really down to 'well everybody does it',
perhaps that's a sign that it's really just bad behavior.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
Nations spying on each other is immoral? Why?

~~~
coldtea
Because it's used by larger nations on smaller nations to take advantage of
them.

~~~
zaqokm
I wouldn't say that Indonesia is a smaller nation than Australia, and by GDP
ranked by countries they appear close to each other.

Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's
involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor.

The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali
bombings.

So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the
reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for
very relevant reasons.

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craigvn
Surely as an ally of the US we could have just asked for their copy of the
Indonesians phone records.

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alexeisadeski3
Dog bites man.

Are we supposed to be surprised at this? Appalled? Impressed? Isn't it normal
for countries to spy on each other? What do we think intelligence agencies do?

~~~
danenania
Slavery was normal for several millennia. Massive pollution and environmental
carelessness are normal too.

Bad acts aren't justified by being normal. If anything, it means the problem
is systemic and therefore needs to be dealt with even more urgently.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
Okay, so why is this bad?

~~~
coldtea
Because a large power gains strategic advantages over a developing country.

~~~
victorhooi
By that simple statement alone, you've shown an astounding amount of ignorance
about Australian-Indonesian relations, or the entire APAC region...

(And an inability to use www.google.com... -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_rel...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_relations))

I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two
countries is complex, and layered. And it's definitely not a case of yes
salah.

And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they
probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...

~~~
coldtea
> _I 'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the
> two countries is complex, and layered._

How's that making any difference to the matter? Colonial powers' relations
with their colonies were "complex and layered" too.

> _And if you think the Indonesians didn 't know we were spying on them (and
> they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you..._

Again, what difference does it makes if they knew? A local power (and a US
lackey) spies on them, and they know it. Is that much better than if they
didn't know it?

It's not like you don't get to enjoy the benefits of spying, blackmailing,
upper hand in trade negotiations, etc because they know or suspect you're
spying.

And it's not like an (essentially) third world country had any major benefits
by their feeble attempts at spying at you themselves...

~~~
Khaine
Your officially an idiot.

From
[http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/11/14/1100384426722.h...](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/11/14/1100384426722.html)

n an extraordinary admission Indonesia says it bugged Australia’s embassy in
Jakarta during the East Timor crisis and has tried to recruit Australians as
spies.

Retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono
has claimed his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and
politicians’ phone calls.

His agency’s attempt to recruit Australians to spy for Indonesia had been
unsuccessful, he said…

Hendropriyono, who headed the Badan Intelijen Negara under president Megawati
Soekarnoputri’s government, said it was well known that governments tapped
each other’s communications and Indonesia had much evidence its embassies
abroad were bugged.

“Here, also, we did the same thing. We want to know what is really discussed
about us,” he told Sunday .

“We can say this is a public secret. You know, secret but the whole public
knows. This is quite common intelligence activity.”

Should Australia really stick its head in the sand? Secondly, there are many
good reasons why we would want to spy on them, from
[http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-
opinion/can...](http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-
opinion/canberra-doesnt-trust-jakarta-20131118-2xr3i.html#ixzz2l2Atbcm1):

Canberra just doesn’t trust Jakarta…

We find Indonesia’s political system opaque, riddled with corruption and prone
to nationalist outbursts. We don’t regard Indonesia as true friends (certainly
not in the way, for example, we view New Zealand or our other “Five Eyes”
partners) and we don’t rule out the possibility that someday, perhaps in the
distant future, they may be a threat…

Thirdly, Indonesia is also how to muslim extremists. I think we would want to
spy on them considering they have repeatedly attacked Australians:

12 October 2002 — The coordinated bomb attacks occurred on in the tourist
district of Kuta, Bali. The attack was claimed as the deadliest act of
terrorism in the history of Indonesia according to the current police general,
killing 202 people, (including 88 Australians, and 38 Indonesian citizens).

5 August 2003 — A suicide bomber detonated a car bomb outside the lobby of the
JW Marriott Hotel, killing twelve people and injuring 150. The hotel located
on Mega Kuningan, South Jakarta, Indonesia. All those killed were Indonesian
with the exception of one Dutch businessman, one Danish, and two Chinese
tourists.

9 September 2004 — A one-tonne car bomb which was packed into a small delivery
van, exploded outside the Australian embassy at Kuningan District, South
Jakarta, at about 10:30 local time (03:30 UTC), killing 9 people including the
suicide bomber, and wounding over 150 others.

1 October 2005 — Series of suicide bomb and a series of car bombs exploded at
two sites in Jimbaran Beach Resort and in Kuta, Bali. The terrorist attack
claimed the lives of 20 people and injured more than 100 others. The three
bombers also died in the attacks

17 July 2009 — The JW Marriott and Ritz-Carlton Hotels in Jakarta, were hit by
separate suicide bombings five minutes apart. Three of the seven victims who
were killed were Australians, two from the Netherlands, and one each from New
Zealand and Indonesia. More than 50 people were injured in the blasts.

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tn13
What is so surprising in that ?

