
Ceramicspeed chainless bike can nows shift gears and carry load - jaytaylor
https://mashable.com/video/ceramicspeed-chainless-bike-can-now-shift-gears-carry-load/
======
hprotagonist
Shafties come around about as often as airless tires — and stay just as long,
too:

Saint Sheldon says “just use a chain case”, and as usual, he’s spot on:

 _Shaft drive was briefly popular around 1900, and occasional attempts are
made to revive the design. Unfortunately, shaft drive turns out to have more
problems than advantages.

A shaft drive requires heavier frame construction around the bevel gears to
maintain their precise alignment under load. The drive system is heavier and
less efficient than a good chain drive.

For reasons of clearance, the bevel gears of a shaft drive bicycle must be
considerably smaller than the typical sprockets used with a chain drive. The
smaller size of the gears causes an increase in the stresses on the whole
support system for the shaft. This problem is exacerbated because the stresses
from the shaft drive are not perpendicular the triangulated structure of a
bicycle frame, and so are not well-resisted. .

Most of the advantages touted by proponents of shaft drive are only advantages
compared with open-chain, derailer gear systems. Many proponents of shaft
drive use specious (if not dishonest) arguments "comparing" shaft drive
systems with derailer gear systems. Any such comparisons are meaningless, it's
like comparing apples and locomotives.

...

Shaft drive proponents also often compare sealed, enclosed shaft drive systems
with open, exposed chain drive systems. This is also a misleading comparison.
All of the advantages claimed for shaft drive can be realized by the use of a
chain case._

[https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html](https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html)

Shaft-driven motorcycles are a whole other story.

~~~
akvadrako
Are you talking about an enclosed derailleur system? I've never seen that.

Or are you suggesting we use hub gears? Because those are significantly lower
efficiency. Only Rohloff is really competitive but it's still around a 5%
efficiency loss compared to derailleurs.

------
tasty_freeze
So this new system saves about 2% of effort, which is large savings for
competitive cyclists.

For 99% of cyclists, though, it doesn't matter. The overwhelming part of your
work goes into air resistance, then rolling resistance at lower speeds, and
probably the chain in last place.

In the last few seconds of video the mechanism can be heard -- oh boy, it is
loud. The pawl in bikes can range from nearly silent to annoying, but this one
seems to be even worse.

~~~
bobowzki
And also most people's bikes aren't perfectly maintained.

~~~
loeg
Probably this system also loses efficiency if not perfectly maintained.

~~~
almostarockstar
Looks like it has less exposed moving parts that a classic bike. Could be
easier to maintain / clean / lube.

~~~
loeg
Not the naked variant — it's about the same as a chain derailleur. Maybe with
the cover. It doesn't exactly look easier to clean that giant sharp dinner
plate. Idk.

------
epx
If I got one dollar for every time someone says the bike chain will be
replaced...

~~~
wyre
Ya, the chain isnt leaving until something that can compete with it in a
combination of weight, modularity, maintenance, cost, and performance.

Carbon belt drives are an alternative, but are not shiftable without internal
gears like a Rohloff hub or Pinion gearbox/bottom bracket which are expensive
and heavy, and regarding the Pinion, needs a proprietary bottom bracket built
into the bicycle's frame. Belt drives are more much more expensive than
chains, and also require a special frame, but they last much longer, and
require virtually no maintenance. They are not nearly as efficient though
which is why they aren't found on track bikes. Belt drives are great for
riders that enjoy just riding along and want to invest in a nice maintenance-
free alternative.

When Driven reaches production I would bet that it will go the way of the belt
drive. It will have incredible improvements over a chain, but will be very
expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if the total cost of the crankset,
driveshaft, cog, and shifters are north of $3000 or more, not including the
price of the wheel or frame. Pricing out almost everyone, except for the
select few that find the improvements worth it. It won't be released until it
is able to be raced professionally and I definitely think it will be seen in
races where seconds matter.

It won't replace the chain as we know it, but this alternative will be on
certain bikes owned by people that care about its benefits.

~~~
blunte
At scale production numbers, the cost should be much lower than 3000. And for
bikes that aren’t as sensitive to weight, cheaper heavier materials can be
used.

I believe it can replace the chain in all but the lowest bikes. It will start
expensive, but so did many other technologies we now see on common priced
bikes.

------
kemitchell
Motorcycles have had shaft drive, belt drive, and chain drive off the lot for
decades. Many Harleys are belt-driven. Many BMWs are shaft-driven. Nearly all
offroad and racing bikes are chain-driven.

It's not just friction efficiency, but weight and other factors, too.

The split pinion reminds me a bit of a DCT. Especially when they put the cover
on.

~~~
13of40
Here's an off the shelf bike from 111 years ago with a shaft drive:

[https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1908-columbia-shaft-
drive-...](https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1908-columbia-shaft-drive-
model-804-reduced-again.95571/)

For some reason there's a tendency to assume that unusual things in the bike
world are crazy new inventions.

~~~
_nalply
Interesting, but this bike with a shaft drive doesn't seem to have gears.

~~~
mikestew
Columbia did make a two-speed version. It’s been so long that I forget exactly
how it works, but it’s not an internal hub.

~~~
mikestew
Here, this page has a picture of the two-speed. Third down, on the left:
[https://www.prices4antiques.com/Bicycle-Pope-Mfg-Columbia-
Sh...](https://www.prices4antiques.com/Bicycle-Pope-Mfg-Columbia-Shaft-Drive-
Male-Frame-2-Speed-1904-E8926673.html)

------
zik
Shaft driven bikes are not uncommon [1] [2]. This variant on the theme seems
to be more about the novel gearing system than the lack of a chain.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-
driven_bicycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-driven_bicycle)

[2] [https://beixo.com/categorie/city-
bikes/](https://beixo.com/categorie/city-bikes/)

~~~
mikestew
I’ve been a cyclist all my life, including hanging out with antique bicycle
clubs (I have an 1886 Columbia highwheeler) where one might, _might_ , see an
1890s Columbia shaft drive. I might have seen a half dozen of the Columbias
over the years. I have never seen a shaft-driven bicycle made in the last 100
years in anything but pictures.

So though shaft-driven bicycles most certainly exist, I would argue that they
are the dictionary definition of “uncommon”.

~~~
zik
It depends where you live. I imagine they're pretty uncommon in the USA. I've
seen one or two in Australia. Most companies making shaft driven bikes seem to
be in countries where bikes are used more commonly for commuting like Germany,
The Netherlands and Scandanavia.

------
AtlasBarfed
Looking at the design, I can't see how it would stand up to high torque or
sudden accelerations. It would skip like crazy, and the flex on the frame
would also disrupt the power.

I would guess this maintains its efficiency advantages only in very limited
torque ranges and have overall power limitations that normal drivetrains
don't.

For general transportation, electric bikes are the real revolution.

------
1ba9115454
It would be great if they could get this into production. I like the idea of
having the rear mech covered up form the elements.

~~~
DoingIsLearning
Probably not for a race bicycle but this problem of 'covering from the
elements' is kind of solved. a lot of tour bikes or city bikes 'stadsfiets'
have internal shimano nexus gear hubs and internal hub brakes with an
additional rain cover for the chain.

These bikes stay chained outside overnight for years with minimal maintenance.

~~~
ip26
Ugh, I had a 3-speed shimano IGH and while I loved the idea, in practice I
could not shake the feeling that I was always pedaling uphill. That is to say,
it felt like the IGH had considerable drag. Fun-killer.

~~~
loeg
There are probably nicer IGHs? 3-speeds are fairly low end. I don't know if
the best IGH feel as good as chain drive bikes, though.

------
pgreenwood
If this drivetrain achieves its claims I will be very impressed. Shaft drive
designs have been around for as long as chain drives; and they have never been
as efficient. Much is lost in the torsion of the shaft. A 2% increase in
efficiency is an absolutely massive gain. The cycling industry is littered
with flashy looking innovations that don't live up to the hype. The basic
design of a diamond frame and chain drive has not been improved upon for over
100 years.

But every now and then there are innovations that actually take hold. For
example, the slant parallelogram dérailleur, hydraulic disk brakes, suspension
(for mountain bikes), and recently single narrow-wide front chain rings. We
shall see how well this drivetrain goes.

~~~
doikor
> The basic design of a diamond frame and chain drive has not been improved
> upon for over 100 years.

Except we have in the form of recumbent bicycles which have a huge aerodynamic
advantage but they were banned in the 30s by making rules to enforce the frame
dimensions.

Recumbent bikes hold the world land speed record on a bicycle if the
definition of a bicycle is "2 wheeled muscle powered vehicle". For example the
flying 200m speed record is 133km/h (flying start, flat ground, 1.66m/s tail
wind max). 1h distance record is 90km while for normal bikes it is 55km etc.

Basically rules stifle a lot of innovation in the cycling world. Most pro
bikes are too light to race legally so they have to add led weights. Strict
rules about handlebars so you cannot get into a good aero position easily etc.

~~~
sarnu
These rules apply to racing bikes, not to bikes that are used everyday for
commuting or recreation. If recumbents were so much superior to the classic
diamond frame, they would dominate the non-racing-bike market. I rode enough
recumbents to prefer my uprights when commuting in a city, also for mountain
biking and rides through hilly areas. If a was commuting in a flat area
outside of a city I would maybe consider a recumbent.

~~~
wyre
A recumbent isn't "superior" to a traditional frame. It has select
improvements, but for the general consumer the ride quality of a traditional
frame is much better.

~~~
tromp
The general consumer has never experienced a recumbent ride. If they had, they
would find the recumbent more comfortable on longer rides.

~~~
u801e
For bumpy roads, you can always stand on the pedals on an upright bicycle and
use your legs as shock absorbers. You can't really do that on a recumbent.

But the general consumer most likely doesn't want to spend too much money on a
bicycle and recumbents tend to be a bit more expensive compared to uprights.

------
bfung
When someone wins an olympic event or whatever biking competition with this,
we'll know if it's the real deal or not.

For the normal consumer, probably more about price than anything else, unless
it enables better electric/motors, etc.

~~~
my_username_is_
>For the normal consumer, probably more about price than anything else

This way just be the bubble that I live in, but I think the average cyclist
that I know cares more about tech and marginal performance rather than price.
New (performance) bikes commonly sell for thousands of dollars. It's not a
world that seems especially price sensitive.

------
schoen
How does the rider trigger the shifting? The interviewee refers to the system
as "wireless", and I assumed that meant "no shifter cable" (as opposed to
"using electromagnetic energy for communication" or something). I can't quite
see in the video what they're doing to cause the shift up or down to happen.

~~~
rdiddly
In bikes these days, they do indeed mean "using EM energy for communication,"
AND also "no shifter cable." There's a comm link similar to Bluetooth (or
maybe straight-up consisting of Bluetooth, I don't actually know) between the
shifter controls and an actuated derailleur (or whatever the shifting
mechanism is called in this case).

~~~
loeg
Probably something lower power than BT. These things try to have days of
battery life with tiny batteries (e.g., Di2, eTap).

~~~
tinus_hn
Modern Bluetooth can have years of battery life on a cr2032 button cell if all
it does is signal some inputs.

~~~
loeg
What kind of IC do you have in mind for that kind of lifetime? While
signaling, say, twice a minute on average, 2 hours a day?

~~~
tinus_hn
I have no idea how it’s built but I’ve seen it work in practice.

This kind of device works for years on a small battery, signaling every
rotation of your wheel to your phone as you cycle:

[https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/Mv9PcDu8](https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/Mv9PcDu8)

~~~
loeg
The spec page says 500 hours of battery, which is about 20 days. At 2 hrs/day
that's 240 days -- still quite a bit, but yeah.

------
thelazydogsback
Sounds like it might be pretty loud

------
foxyv
I'm really looking forward to more belt driven bicycles with internal gearing
like the Priority 600 and Continuum Onyx. I'm tired of delicate bicycles that
I have to fiddle with CONSTANTLY to keep them running.

~~~
soared
Buy a better bike. You should effectively never need to fiddle with anything
if you spend $300+ and aren't riding lots of hours or through intense terrain.

~~~
foxyv
Yeah I don't see much smooth roads and ride about 500+ miles a month. Some of
it is on roads, but also a lot of gravel/dirt. I have to constantly clean
chains and group sets otherwise shifting gets super crunchy.

I used to ride a cheap bike (Liv Alight 3), but after replacing 3 wheels it
was cheaper to buy a nicer bike. Tourney has become a swear word in our house.
Lately I've been riding my Catrike Expedition which is a blast, but chain and
gear maintenance is still a problem.

~~~
ip26
Sounds like you might be well served by a fat tire gravel bike, 1x up front
with a limited number of rear gears? The less gears, the less fiddly, and they
are built for rougher road.

------
micheljansen
2% less effort to ride is fine and all, but how easy is it to maintain? I'd
pay extra for a bike that never needs maintenance – does not need to be oiled
regularly, does not need replacement gears or chains etc.

------
kgwxd
When I hear "novel" and "patentable" mentioned in a video, I'm quite sure it's
made solely to impress investors and immediately assume most of it is BS.

~~~
spectramax
How is it that you're sure?

I am not a fan of Patents, especially software patents and ones that are
deliberately filed for malicious, anti-competitive measures.

When a company _truly_ innovates, they deserve the prize of a patent. It
appears that they've done so, investors lurking around or not.

~~~
AYBABTME
I think the point of GP is more that their marketing content seems to be
geared to wow investors, not consumers. Mentioning that they have a patent is
of no positive value to consumers, it in fact might suggest that the design
will be a niche commanding a high price.

~~~
tzs
They specifically called out one particular aspect of their design as being
novel and patentable, about halfway through the video. Shaft drives for
bicycles in general are not new. Calling out that one particular feature this
way tells the consumer watching what sets theirs apart.

------
imvetri
Who wants to have an open source cycle gear system. I'm in.

~~~
imvetri
But here is what I think it looks. Whole concept of patent world is flawed and
here is how it is.

This piece of gear system is a mix of central shaft(that we see in trucks +
gear + that cut-in-half gear tooth)

If we split it into three individual item, then it is a three different
patented item. Put together you get a new patent? Come on!

------
ambyra
Reminds me of those old hand crank egg beaters.

------
RickJWagner
Motorcycles have had belt drives for decades. I wonder if they'd help bicycles
also. (Lighter, cleaner, etc.)

~~~
maxerickson
They are available.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-
driven_bicycle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-driven_bicycle)

------
chenzhekl
Previously, sharing bicycles company (Mobike) in China used similar chainless
bikes in their businesses for ease of maintenance. But they were later
replaced by traditional ones because chainless bicycles were usually much
heavier and consumed more energy from riders. Very curious about how people in
the article solved this problem.

------
mcbain
The article on CT gets into much more detail about this system:
[https://cyclingtips.com/2019/09/ceramicspeed-driven-can-
shif...](https://cyclingtips.com/2019/09/ceramicspeed-driven-can-shift/)

tl;dr: interesting and shows promise, still more work to do.

edit: don't be scared by the not-a-paywall greyed out text and box.

~~~
kqr
Interesting idea for shifting. One thing I'm concerned about (and this is
probably only me in the entire wide world) is the tactile feel when shifting
(and, indeed, pedaling in general.)

On single-speed bikes and common derailleur type multi-speed bikes (yes, even
with freewheeling, but I assume even more without it) there's a very direct
linkage between pedaling and movement. You start moving pretty much the
instant you put pressure on the pedals.

I've noticed on some hub-gear bicycles there's a significant amount of slack
where you have to pedal without resistance for at least 1/8 of a revolution
until the drive mechanism kicks in. This is very frustrating to me (again, I'm
sure it's only me...) and completely disrupts the suspense of disbelief I
otherwise can conjure, which seems to be what allows me to get that freedom
feeling almost like I'm flying. The lack of feedback for that fraction of a
second yanks me straight out of the flow of navigating traffic with the bike
as an extension of my body and reminds me sternly that I am sitting on a very-
separate-from-my-body mechanical horse, some aspects of which are very much
not in my control.

That sense of freedom is definitely one of the major reasons I use the bicycle
as my primary means of transportation.

Sorry, very long rant about something very unspecific but vaguely related.

------
neil_s
A 2% bump in efficiency hardly seems like a revolution. This is still cool
though, I look forward to bikes that need lower maintenance because of the
lack of chains

~~~
skykooler
On the one hand, it's a 2% gain in efficiency. On the other, it's a 60%
reduction in losses. From that viewpoint, it's pretty significant.

~~~
loeg
Drivechain losses only, and only if you take their numbers at face value. And
if you ignore losses due to shifting. There are plenty of other losses (aero
drag ...).

------
chrismorgan
I’m interested in the idea of going not just chainless, but not having any
rigid or semi-rigid drive connection at all.

I ride a recumbent tricycle, and an interesting complaint from my dad when we
were discussing why recumbent trikes and velomobiles aren’t more widespread is
that the _design_ is unweildy, that the end result doesn’t look polished; so
we discussed ways that you could make it neater. The chain on recumbent trikes
goes from the very front to the back of the vehicle, so it’s a long,
subjectively unsightly thing. Something like the this Driven shaft drive would
be quite unsuitable for a trike due to the length of the shafts that would be
required, and the resulting torsion.

So then, we wondered, what would it be like if you replaced the entire
drivetrain with an electric drivetrain? Pedals at the front would drive a
generator, which would pass power through slim wires hidden inside the frame
or similar, to a motor at the back. Much neater, visually if in no other way.
This would fit in very nicely with making it an e-bike, too: precise
legislation wording could be problematic, but your 200W or 250W or whatever
would be added to whatever power you generated by pedalling. And by being a
fully-electric drivetrain, efficiency would be improved on the electric
assist. (Probably similar to the benefits that I understand going full-
electric on hybrid car drivetrains can offer.)

I’m not deeply familiar with the efficiencies involved, but my impression from
light research is that regular chain drives start out at up to 97% but often
operate at figures closer to 80–85% due to wear and lack of maintenance; and a
full electric drivetrain could be over 90% efficient, though it’d be more
likely to be around 80%. (Remember, we’re not getting a battery involved at
this point, so no losses on that.) Perhaps such a drive would be on par with a
_typical_ chain drive for efficiency, though less than a well-maintained one;
but it could provide improvements in efficiency in other areas (electric
assist and foot-to-bike power transference).

I believe that less maintenance would be required, and it’d the complaint of
the dirtiness of bike chains too. Heavier parts and more expensive, unless you
were going e-bike already in which case it may be lighter and cheaper, which
would become a much more obvious thing to do for such a bike.

It’s interesting to think about. But I doubt I’ll ever do any practical
experimentation on the idea, because my list of projects I’d love to work on
is already more than thirty years long (and getting longer each year), and
this sits a fair way back on it.

Hydraulics would also be interesting to experiment with.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainless_bicycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainless_bicycle)
is a good page to start on for learning about all these things.

~~~
maxerickson
The efficiency of electric assist doesn't really matter. They get decent range
with a small battery, so you can just use a modestly larger battery to get
more range.

I'm not saying more range from the same battery would be worthless, just that
the ranges they already offer are plenty marketable.

I also wonder about the efficiency of a small (tiny!), slow generator.

~~~
chrismorgan
You’re generally correct, especially with how people mostly use bicycles and
e-bikes. But it depends a bit on how you’re positioning it; two interesting
cases that I’m thinking of: using a “trickle power assist” to cheat your way
to effectively 100% efficiency, so it needs to be efficient with small
augmentations from a battery (which I _think_ is the sort of case that would
commonly be particularly inefficient, but when combined with your pedalling in
the same drivetrain I imagine it might not be); and velomobiles for longer-
distance travel (very much more being a car replacement), perhaps even
touring, where larger range figures start to matter more. If you can get it to
go 20% further at a given speed, that becomes a bigger deal.

A substantial art of this thought experiment is about designing a _delightful_
product. As my dad said to me: if Apple were designing a bicycle or tricycle
or velomobile or similar, what would it be like? We both agreed that there
wouldn’t be an exposed chain, for starters, and I suspect that they’d at least
try to do away with the chain altogether, and they’d care about efficiencies
if they went down this path.

------
paulcole
I thought it went against HN policies to post about startups that actually
follow through on their pie-in-the-sky ideas?

