
Ageism - fogus
http://scrunchup.com/article/ageism/
======
SimonPStevens
When I was 19 I thought I was the greatest programmer in the world and that
everyone was ignoring my ability because of my age.

When I turned 21, left uni and got my first software dev job I realised how
much I had to learn. I'm now in my late 20's and one of the most important
things I have learnt in the last 10 years is that I still have a huge amount
more to learn.

Your graph shows that 47% of under 18's think people are ageist against them.
Of course they do. Young people are often unaware of the value that experience
brings. I'm not saying all are - there are some great young developers. I know
several who at 14/15 are several times better than I ever expect to be, and
you clearly have talents and ability. (I try to keep in touch with them so
that when they reach a point when they are looking for work I can interview
them. I think there is huge value in young new talent)

What I would be really interested to read is a follow up to this article in 15
years when you have the experience of age and can write from both sides of the
fence. Keep your notes from this article and compare it with how you feel when
you are 35 looking back at cocky teenage coders who think they know
everything.

~~~
araneae
Whether you think it's a deserved prejudice or not, doesn't mean it doesn't
exist or it isn't problematic.

Sure, the vast majority of young people can't program. The vast majority of
women can't either. Age AND sex are perfectly useful heuristics for
determining whether any given person is a good programmer.

The problem with prejudice is it sucks for those people who are young or
female who actually _are_ good.

Personally, I look much younger than I am (usually 3-5 years, but as much as 8
in one case) and it means I'm rarely taken seriously. I can imagine it being
frustrating actually being young, as well.

~~~
ohyes
It isn't a useful heuristic at all. The vast majority of people can't program.
If you take a random person from the population I'm going to assume that they
cannot program.

If we are talking about 'from the population of programmers' I'd wager (a
large sum) there are more men who claim they can program, but actually cannot,
just given the fact that the field of programming is a male dominated
industry.

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ojbyrne
As some one who's old enough to have lots of experience with the over-40
version of ageism and get stirred up every time there's a tech crunch article
about someone 18 or whatever getting funded largely _because_ they're 18, I
actually have some sympathy. There are numerous legal and regulatory
roadblocks to dealing with people under 18 (in contract law, you're
essentially not a person) but some efforts could be made to overcome them.

While at digg, I routinely complained about the fact that live diggnations
were always held at 21 and over venues (I've been to enough all-ages concerts
to know that there are plenty of places that will serve alcohol but still let
underage people in). Half the diggnation audience was under 18! I was
routinely ignored, thus demonstrating ageism against 2 different age groups at
once.

~~~
sudont
Grandpa: _"I'm an old man, no one listens to me."_

Lisa: _"I'm a young girl, no one listens to me."_

Homer: _"I'm a white male aged 18 to 49, everyone listens to me, no matter how
dumb my suggestions are."_

Homer holds a can of "Nuts and Gum: Together At Last"

\--Lisa vs. Malibu Stacy

------
maxklein
Young people are capable of doing many things. But there are some traits that
make young people unsuitable for some jobs - lack of stability, wandering
interest, not having been exposed enough.

Just focus on the things that can best be done when you are young - like
taking wild risks and trying many different things.

You'll be old soon enough.

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cryptoz
The most frustrating part about the USA setting the drinking age to 21 is that
they give 18-year-olds guns and airplanes and bombs and tell them to kill
people in Iraq.

But if that kid wants to have a goodbye beer with his dad before he goes to
war, __he'll be thrown in jail __(and maybe his dad, too?). WTF!? That's just
bullshit. Killing people = okay at 18, drinking a beer = okay at 21. Crazy.

~~~
arethuza
Is it really illegal to _consume_ alcohol when you are 20 in the USA?

In Scotland (possibly the rest of the UK) it's only illegal for under 18s to
purchase alcohol - and even then you can have wine/beer in a restaurant from
16.

~~~
jerf
When you realize what to look for, you realize Puritanism is alive and well in
the US. "Hairshirt environmentalists", neoprohibitionists, the way we approach
sex ed. Don't get me wrong, by no means is it dominant, it's just that like
any other interest group, a small organized group of people against a lot of
organized people with weak opinions can do wonders with getting favorable laws
passed. I wouldn't be surprised a majority of people think 21 is a silly age
limit, but only weakly (perhaps even cowed into saying otherwise in polls),
whereas the ones trying to keep it in place believe they are the last bastion
standing between society and every teenager in the US getting blotto and
smashing their cars into walls at 140kph, and they vote and campaign
accordingly.

Also, technically, it's a state-by-state thing but 21 is pretty popular.

~~~
gyardley
America culturally is very diverse, and varies greatly from state to state.
When a policy seems oddly uniform across all the states, it's likely due to a
Supreme Court ruling or federal legislation.

In the case of minimum drinking ages, it's a need for federal highway money
that's alive and well in the United States - in 1984, Ronald Reagan tied
receiving the full portion of federal funds for infrastructure to having a
minimum drinking age of 21. Prior to that, minimum drinking ages varied from
18 to 21 depending on the state - each state set its own social policy, which
in my opinion is how it should be.

Digging deeper into the issue, you can see how certain states resisted raising
their drinking age, despite funding implications - Wyoming took several years
to raise their drinking age, and Louisiana had a loophole that made it illegal
buy alcohol but not illegal to sell it until the mid-1990s.

On the PATH, a commuter train from New Jersey to New York, there are public
service ads from Mothers Against Drunk Driving against lowering the drinking
age, since deaths from drunk driving have dropped dramatically since 1984.
Whenever I see one, I get the urge to scribble 'correlation is not causation'
on it.

------
sp4rki
I taught myself C when I was 12 years old, does that mean I'm ready for a
formal job with responsibilities at 16? Ageism is not about what magical
skills you have at 16 or 18 (or 20 for that matter), it's about a teenager not
having experience on neither a full blown (probably monetized) project, nor on
life as an adult with _responsibilities_.

It's not that teenagers are being discriminated because people think they lack
skills. They're being discriminated because 99% of teenager cant hold a job at
a fast food joint and no one want's to have to deal with the risk of hiring
children to do something "important".

Reality check, if you're 16~18 and want to get your foot trough the door, get
an internship. Good employers or clients are not going to give you age
discrimination if you actually have proof that you're mature enough and have
had experience in the field.

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dfield
I'm 18 and I don't necessarily agree with this. From what I can tell tech is
more accepting of young people than almost any other industry.

~~~
jerf
Yes, I was a bit surprised to click through. Usually when we talk about ageism
we're talking about how your career is over at 35.

I'm not sure that the tech industry is _particularly_ ageist against the
young. Yes, a 17-year-old web designer may find (s)he doesn't get much respect
from the tech industry, but, well, a 17-year-old _anything_ won't get much
respect from _any_ industry. In our culture 17 is still a kid, and expected to
do things like deciding that it's too hard to work and go play video games
instead. I don't agree (my opinions are complicated, I don't merely believe
the opposite, but that's certainly not an adequate summary), but I'm in the
firm minority.

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nadam
98% of younger than 18 year olds overestimate their knowledge. I know this
from experience from programming forums. I began programming when I was 12 and
I massively overestimated my knowledge when I was 18 years old. (I know there
are rare exceptions.)

Also depends on the topic. A talented 18 years old can be a very good web
designer. Or can solve tricky math/algorithmization problems well. On the
other hand a 18 year old (except probably the caliber of Terry Tao) cannot do
things where huge amount of experience, learned knowledge and maturity is
needed. I am just reading the book 'Programming in Scala'. It is just plain
impossible that a 18 year old could design that programming language and could
write that book that way. When you read that book you feel the huge amount of
knowledge and experience (in everyday programming, in other programming
languages, in language design, in compiler writing and in computer science
theory) which was needed to create it.

------
Hovertruck
I'm not really sure how to put into words how I feel about this post. I
started working at Webs at 18 and from the get-go was right in the thick of
things. Nobody ever really said anything about my age.

Fast forward to now, I'm a few months shy of 21 and have received a couple of
different job offers. I'm working at Meetup now and the only age-related
downside is I had to promise not to open the beer fridge until I turn 21.

Granted there are downsides. I went to An Event Apart SF 09 and got denied
entry to the afterparty because it was in a bar. It's understandable but
frustrating.

I guess in the end I just feel like the only way your age can be a hinderance
to you is if you let it. Actions speak much louder than words, and if you just
do what you need to do and let your work speak for you, you'll get along just
fine.

------
micheljansen
I am from The Netherlands and I don't recognize any of these problems. I
hacked together some website for a non-profit organization when I was 15, had
my first paid IT job when I was 16 and I never felt excluded or discriminated
against between fellow geeks. Maybe it's a cultural thing.

------
defroost
Difficult to empathize as the subtitle of srunchup.com excludes anyone not
considered "young". Why not "A Web Magazine for Designers and Developers"? Or
are their specific aspects of web development that only pertain to people
under 25?

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trotsky
I was doing paid IT work when I was 14 (under the table until I was 16), and
had a full time progamming job when I was 19 ( also going to school full
time). Imagine this lads disappointment when he ends up 40+ in this industry.

------
ibejoeb
Well, I can empathize with most cases of discrimination, but it sounds an
awful lot like OP has targetted events in places with hard age limits, i.e.,
legal limits. It's going to be tough to attend events in the US while under
21.

I presume it's possible to organize events at less restricted venues. Now's
the time to exercise political skills and persuade peers to go elsewhere.

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mbesto
I'm a Y-Gen'r and can't say enough about this. There are a lot of young minds
out there that could make massive efforts in making business better but fail
to reach it due to Ageism.

Which begs the question, will this change when my generation is older?

~~~
sammyo
Sorry to be old and reactionary : ) but the young folk that make theses
arguments, or are even aware of these arguments are something of outliers.
Have this young lady go back to her highschool and find 100 folks that are
capable of running a company. 50? 5? Maybe one or two, or maybe a couple in
that entire metropolitan area are ready for significant investment.

Nothing wrong with outliers, my grandfather started a groundbreaking business
before he was 21 and worked for his own investment funds from his early teens.
An he was an outlier. An amazing guy, built his first warehouse with castoff
boards, he certainly was not getting a bank loan.

Miss Debenham's issues will be moot and she will be fine will do fine far far
in the future, 2012 or so.

~~~
mbesto
Actually I applaud your response, no need to justify it...puts things in
perspective.

To add a little spice to your argument, what do you have to say about the "CEO
boys club" that is present in today's big business. In other words, the idea
that only a select number of the population is worthy and/or qualified to run
such empires. If you extrapolate this you'll also find many middle managers /
VP / EVP roles that are filled with people who really shouldn't be there but
are there because of years of experience. Yet, these are the people that can
very justifiably make the critical decisions of the company aside from just
the CEO. (take Jonathan Ive for example)

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richieb
Experience is no substitute for competence..

