
The Data Behind H-1B Visas - thingsilearned
http://chartio.com/blog/2013/09/the-data-behind-h1b-visas
======
ChuckMcM
This is the money line:

    
    
       Job Description      Applied Received      Avg Salary
       -------------------- ------- --------      ----------
       Computer Programmers  55922   52342 (93%)   $63,916
    

We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living
in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary
of all programmers is $94,000 [1]. That narrative gets lost though.

[1]
[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Computer+Programmer&l1=San+F...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Computer+Programmer&l1=San+Francisco+Bay+Area%2C+CA)

~~~
blinkingled
That is over generalizing though. Computer Programmer is a term widely applied
to everyone ranging from higher end Systems Programmers and embedded
programmers to lower end Web Programmers. Then there is also the living costs
- you couldn't make a decent living in SF for $63916 but in Detroit suburbs
that might be decent wage.

The reality of it is that there is a need for "program assemblers" \- people
that can read up the APIs/programmer guides and cook up a working app OR
maintain such an app. The need for such people is significant and it isn't
always in sunny SFO - often times it is at a place where not many would
relocate to.

That's why you need H1-Bs at the lower end of the market with lower salaries-
it works because no one else who is already in the US with student debts and
location preference is willing and for the guys coming from EU/India/China -
it is a great start and an opportunity to try and get permanent residence to
get up the chain.

~~~
jamra
I disagree completely. There is no evidence that H1-B holders are taking up
low end jobs.

The fact is that there are too few programmers in the US and far more jobs.
The H1-B allows companies to import a slave workforce bound to the visa.

Your assumption that they are merely program assemblers is insulting to
everyone who holds an H1-B. Their education backgrounds are competitive with
the US.

If there is any correlation with H1-B holders and large corporations, it is
most likely due to the willingness to sponsor H1-B visas.

~~~
blinkingled
Well that'd be defying common logic and data. High end jobs are less in
numbers almost by definition. No one I know who educated from an American
university with a B.S./M.S. is taking up jobs at the consulting companies that
are taking up majority of the H1-B Visas. Those people are getting the high
end Google/Apple/Microsoft or startup jobs.

There is no insult intended in calling lower end jobs what they are - it's
just a relative distinguishing mechanism. You can hardly justify arguing that
everyone that maintains a run of the mill C#/Java app should get paid a $100K
in Youngstown, OH.

Oh and look up real slavery before using the slave word in H1-B context.

~~~
bubbleRefuge
So I work at Apple in SV. There are hoards and hoards of cube farms packed to
the hilt (sometimes 3-4 people in a 8X10 cube) staffed 99% with heads from
Wipro, TCS, Infosys - all Indian with zero diversity. I know pretty competent
guys getting 34-40 bucks an hour with the vendor probably billing around
75-80. This is big business. With local 1BR apartments going for 2K+ and
rising, how is this not slave labor? Its ridiculous. If the public could only
see this. H1's should be allowed into the country as free agents and the
talent should be slanted toward top coder types. Lots of these people spend
their day reading log files and editing system scripts working the 10-5
schedule with an hour of lunch. We can't find American workers who can do this
for say 50 bucks an hour ( split the difference)? In this economy ? Really ?

~~~
blinkingled
Believe me - the Indian companies are just another corporations wanting to
make money. They couldn't care less about whether they are employing an Indian
or American or a Mexican. If they could find Americans living in SV willing to
work for 50$ an hour weeding through editing scripts with no future
aspirations, no complaints and a girlfriend and a dog to feed - they'd do it
in a heartbeat. In this economy and political situation - they just can't get
enough VISAs - the rejection rate is as low as 50% and as high as 85% for some
of the VISAs.

Also it isn't slave labor because H1-Bs can leave and get another job of their
liking or go back to their home country when they wish. This is simple
demand/supply/willingness/market forces in action.

~~~
shiven
_Also it isn 't slave labor because H1-Bs can leave and get another job of
their liking or go back to their home country when they wish._

Please tell me you were born in a third-world country and that your parents
wages were so low that they could barely afford to feed you and your siblings
while you were growing up. And you would not mind going back because you _so
loved_ the living conditions before moving to the US that you would love your
kids to grow up in a third-world country, with all its disadvantages.

You, dear blinkingled, clearly have no clue what you are saying when you say
what you said there.

~~~
blinkingled
What about changing jobs on H1? Is that too hard on you, shiven? Getting up
and leaving for work in traffic to the same place everyday - does that bother
you too?!

~~~
shiven
Wanna offer me one? Perhaps you live in a part of the universe blessed with a
cornucopia of jobs offers. I do not.

Snark aside, did you know losing your "new" job while on an H-1B means getting
kicked out of the US within 15 days? Not a very comforting thought now, is it?

~~~
blinkingled
Inconvenience and slavery are two different things. H1B isn't very convenient
to the employees and it could certainly get better but calling it slavery is
going too far.

~~~
shiven
Sure, lets not call it slavery.

Lets call it what it is: _Bonded Labor_.

Not merely an _inconvenience_ either. Capisce?

------
Amadou
The article says that the biggest employers are "consulting companies" it
would be more correct to say they are off-shoring companies. The disconnect
between the rhetoric about H1B and the reality is staggering.

[http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-
Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think)

I also want to point out that despite the occasional anecdote of H1B visa
holders being paid equal to, or even better than, their US citizen
counterparts there is exactly zero budget for enforcement of this requirement.
Even then, there are classification tricks to work around the occasional
cursory check-up.

[http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-
know-...](http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-
about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/)

~~~
ojbyrne
That latter article says "It’s a non-immigrant visa and so has nothing at all
to do with staying in the USA, becoming a citizen, or starting a business."
which is incorrect. It's a dual intent visa
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent)).
I didn't really read past that.

~~~
Amadou
That seems like a rather minor point to focus on. As the wiki article you
linked to spells out, dual-intent just means that the visa-holder is not
barred from applying for a green-card while in country.

It isn't like holding an H1B is a necessary part of the process for getting a
green card, or even necessarily a leg up on the process.

~~~
blinkingled
>It isn't like holding an H1B is a necessary part of the process for getting a
green card, or even necessarily a leg up on the process.

How else does a young graduate outside of US, not part of the diversity green
card program get a Green Card without H1-B or L1 Visas? Realistically H1-B/L1
visas are the only option for many people aspiring for green cards.

~~~
Amadou
You are seeing it from the POV of the applicant, not from the POV of the
people who designed the H1B visa program.

It is their intent that matters and if their intent were to facilitate such
people's immigration there are better ways to do it since the green card
process takes nearly the maximum term of an H1B visa. If you don't start the
process from basically day one, you are probably not going to get that green
card. If you switch employers mid-stream, the green-card process must restart
which puts a practical end to it too.

~~~
blinkingled
>If you don't start the process from basically day one, you are probably not
going to get that green card. If you switch employers mid-stream, the green-
card process must restart which puts a practical end to it too.

And the alternative to that is to do what? Not bother and not try getting the
green card?

~~~
Amadou
The alternative would be a visa that was designed to avoid such punitive
requirements. One that fast-tracked the applicant to a green card and
automatically extended the term in case there was a delay in issuing the green
card.

~~~
blinkingled
Oh - that one I completely agree. I wasn't looking at it from that angle.
Certainly a VISA that not only screens the applicants and the jobs better and
doesn't impose random restrictions would be of benefit to everyone.

------
agilecoder
The biggest thing to know about these data from the US Department of Labor
(DOL) is that they DO NOT reflect visas granted. They reflect Labor Condition
Applications (LCAs) granted. denied, etc. This is only one part of the
application for a visa, and every year the DOL certifies far more LCAs than
there are available visas.

It is impossible to tell from the LCA data what companies actually followed
through with the rest of the process and fees and were able to sponsor a
foreign worker before the visa cap was hit each year. That information would
come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find
they do not release that information.

~~~
jacalata
aha, that explains why there are 300,000 approvals for the year. Thanks!

------
ray_manta
So I've been in the US on a H1B visa for more than 3 years now, and I believe
some of the comments in here are misleaded.

First myth: H1B get lower salaries. For knowing a decent number of people with
H1B, me included, I can say that's not the case. All of the people with H1B I
know are paid more than 100k/year (some WAY more than that) at full-time
positions with good health care and, for the people who work in startups,
decent equity.

True it may be that the first job you get as an H1B might be paid less, I was
at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary, and
still got a significant increase in my second change.

Second myth: You cannot change jobs with an H1B. This is completely wrong. I
have changed job twice in the past 3 years, and it's really easy. You just
need to work with your new employer to get a new form which might take 2 to 3
weeks, but the process is pretty straight-forward, and even startups can do
this easily without requiring armies of lawyers.

Of course I can't say that this is true for every single H1B employee out
there, but from my experience I haven't seen much difference with US
citizens/permanent residents, and would even go so far as saying that the most
competent people I've had the chance to work with were on H1B visas.

Some people need to stop and learn before saying that "We need H1-B visas
because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United
States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all
programmers is $94,000"...

~~~
jussij
> I was at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary,
> and still got a significant increase in my second change.

This is a clear indication that your skill set is in high demand.

> "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers
> living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the
> average salary of all programmers is $94,000"...

Doesn't your previous comment actually confirm this statement?

You took a HIB job paying a wage that did not accurately reflect your skill
level and your ability to move up in wage scale so easily is a clear
indication of that fact.

------
marcjgm
I don't mean to be mean, but this is a pointless piece. There's a number of
reasons for such a high rate of acceptance and the piece doesn't really tell
much more aside from some salary info.

One reason so many who apply actually get H1-Bs is that there is a cutoff (at
which point they don't accept new applicants). This is (for the last few
years) about a week after they're actually released (April). Though you can
apply before this time, companies usually want you to start asap and so won't
apply unless the time frame for application is right.

The threshold for application is also super high (doc requirements, company
proof, $$$), thus increasing the likelihood that an application put forward
will most likely be accepted. Most immigration lawyers will counsel against
putting forward applications they think won't succeed to avoid the having
angry clients. It's pretty clear (80-90% certainty) to most immigration
lawyers what will and won't work.

Not sure what this study really tells us aside from the fact that it's so hard
just to apply for an H1B that if you do, you'll probably get it.

------
mabbo
My company is listed as having many H1B's. As a previous holder of a TN visa
(NAFTA, yay) we were highly encouraged to get an H1B. Why? because the US
border patrol would harass TN holders, and try to trick us into saying the
wrong thing so they could take away our work Visas.

Going home to visit family and friends became a real risk that we might lose
our jobs. We were told "Do not cross at this crossing on these days of the
week" because we'd had so many incidents of one guy who would just arbitrarily
take away TN visas.

An H1B meant safety.

~~~
ap3
Let me guess - you're Canadian

~~~
ojbyrne
Your point is?

------
greenyoda
Interesting that the 11th largest employer of H-1B workers is the NYC
Department of Education, with 5219 H-1Bs.

Also, there's some invalid data in the database: "Brooklyn, NY" is listed as a
city, but it's not (it's a borough of NYC). That also means that the numbers
for NYC are wrong, since they apparently don't include Brooklyn. This brings
into question how reliable the rest of the data is.

~~~
datdo
The boroughs of NYC are unique in that they are counties, cities, and also
part of NYC. Stating Brooklyn or Queens or w/e instead of NYC in the city
column is allowed. So the cause is multiple authors of applications, not bad
data.

------
sp_
Shameless plug: For more H-1B salary visualizations check out
[http://www.salar.ly/](http://www.salar.ly/) :)

~~~
samspenc
Pretty awesome! :) And you can sort by table columns too! (Something sorely
lacking in the original post!)

------
codexon
Obligatory links to H-1B studies sure to stir controversy here.

[http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html)

[http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bwritings.html](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bwritings.html)

------
ffrryuu
We need to get rid of H-1B and replace it with a green card program. Win win
for everyone.

------
kamjam
_Consulting companies provide the most H-1B Visas. Infosys Limited, Wipro
Limited, Cognizant and PriceWaterhouseCoopers take the gold by awarding a
combined 67,139 H-1B visas._

What is the relation between the "Applications Submitted" and "Employees
Hired"? Given that this is just 2012 data, the there is a hard limit of 65,000
H1-B visas per year, this doesn't make sense to me. The figure in the article
is a little misleading, I presume that the figured is over the past x years?

~~~
agilecoder
As I commented above these data reflect Labor Condition Applications (LCAs)
granted. denied, etc. This is only one part of the application for a visa, and
every year the DOL certifies far more LCAs than there are available visas.

To find out what visas were actually issued that information would come from
US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not
release that information.

~~~
nknighthb
The State Department has it. Second row on the second page of this PDF:

[http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12AnnualReport-
TableXVIB.p...](http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12AnnualReport-
TableXVIB.pdf)

The rest of the 2012 report PDFs are listed at:

[http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/statistics/statistics_5861....](http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/statistics/statistics_5861.html)

~~~
agilecoder
You're right, the State Department has raw numbers of visas approved, but
still no way to connect them to employers, industries, occupations or wages as
the original post attempted to present.

------
hbharadwaj
Why on earth would anyone combine PwC with Infosys and Wipro? Infosys and
Wipro represent the lesser expensive labor band while PwC is a true accounting
and consulting firm.

Consulting in this context is so muddled up.

True Consulting: McKinsey, Deloitte, PwC, KPMG, EY, etc.,

Off-shoring/Lesser expensive labor: Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant etc.,

Granted Infosys and Wipro may have some true consulting guys, but to put them
in the same bucket as McKinsey or EY is a little ridiculous.

------
shreyansj
Every discussion on H-1B visas always misses the point that it is the only way
for a non-US citizen student, graduating from a US university, to work in the
US on a long term basis. For a more meaningful analysis, it is important to
consider the educational background of the H-1B worker.

~~~
ng12
Which is another reason why the H1-B needs to be reworked, not ramped up. It's
too catch-all, and too often abused.

------
eliben
What are those consulting companies like Wipro and Infosys actually _doing_
with all those H-1Bs? Comments here refer to them as offshoring companies, but
how does offshoring play with bringing more programmers into the US with
H-1Bs?

------
Sukotto
On a side note. Can anyone recommend a good immigration lawyer I can talk to
about working in the US?

I'm Canadian, living in Canada, and considering a move back to the US to work.
However, I have a somewhat complicated history with US Immigration and I'd
like professional advice to figure out my options.

Have you had a good experience with an immigration lawyer (In either the US or
Canada)? If so, please post a link to their site (or email me if you prefer:
sukotto.filter@gmail.com )

~~~
mabbo
Get hired by a good company that wants you, and wants to pay you well. Then
have them hire a good lawyer to get you into the country.

Alternatively, there are lots of those west coast companies opening offices in
Toronto. Get hired there, then get a transfer.

------
dpweb
Controversial issue for sure and will continue to be.

Encourage folks to Google the IEEE articles lately on the 'worker shortage
issue' and statistics. Interesting stuff.

------
to_jon
The number of annual H-1B hires by Wipro and Infosys coupled with the
corresponding average salary data reveal the extent of abuse in the current
system. Indian developers are imported into the US to essentially provide an
in-house alternative to offshoring, with pernicious consequences for the US
economy and the high tech labor pool within the US. A small disclaimer- I'm
not a bitter ex-developer who lost his job with a large US corporation in the
recent past. In fact, I'm an internet dude in San Francisco, personally
unaffected by these policies. I'm also convinced that Intel and other cutting
edge companies absolutely need access to more brilliant tech minds through the
H1-B program.

Let me point out a few obvious and unsettling problems that stem from Infosys
and its ilk directly importing developers into the IT offices of US
corporations. First and foremost, if the number of programmers in this country
is a real issue (see excellent article linked at bottom) and one that you're
serious about solving, then the consequences of underpaid H1-B developers is
troublesome. When companies can replace US hires with H1-B consultants, not
only do US developers become comparatively expensive, but the number of job
openings is also reduced, artificially holding down IT salaries. The market's
answer to a shortage in supply is higher prices- yet stagnant IT salaries
remain an obstacle to the tech industry attracting more talent ("in computing
and IT, wages have generally been stagnant for the past decade, according to
the EPI"). Money can absolutely make IT more cool, but unless you land in a
promising startup, you're better off pursuing a career in finance or attending
business school.

In the context of a country burdened with stagnanet wages and a growing wealth
gap, repressed IT salaires are even more distrubing. While IT automation
allows corporations to significantly downsize and slash mid-level executives
across the board, the IT developers directly responsible for these greater
efficiencies can never expect to earn the same $300k salaries of the laid off
executives. You might think that as high paying US middle management jobs are
lost, equally attractive IT jobs might help stem the drain on US middle class
incomes. But there are few signs that even the supposedly systemic shortages
of programmers in a country where "software is eating the world" can lift IT
salaries across the board, year over year, over a significant period of time.
Ask yourself- why hasn't IT wage inflation, inevitable under the normal market
conditions of a true shortage, reduced corporate profits by even one tenth of
one percent over the past decade?

Just as troubling, US corporations can lean on H1-B consultants as a band-aid
that lets them avoid the steps needed to actually address the underlying
problems they see in the tech labor market. Despite record profits, how many
corporations have revamped their technology department training and
recruitment practices, or started offering better benefits and improved career
paths to new IT hires? Why don't college-bound kids generally show even the
slightest amout of excitement when asked about the promise of working in IT?
The answer is simple- those jobs are no more attractive than they were 10 or
20 years ago. Exciting opportunities for advancement or higher pay or even the
opportunity for mentorship from leaders in non-IT parts of the business? Good
luck with that! Let's face it, beyond the opportunity to indulge your joy of
coding on a daily basis, IT jobs still suck. H1-B programs let corporations
avoid spending resources needed for real, substantial improvements.

Is there actually a STEM shortage?

[http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-
crisis-i...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-
myth)

------
patrickod
Unsurprising to find that such a small percentage of applications were for
musicians / singers. Is that not what the artist category in the O visa was
designed for?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa)

~~~
potatolicious
The O visa is only for people who can demonstrate "extraordinary" capability.
This usually means published, well-known, etc. Not all artists and musicians
qualify.

~~~
philwelch
Is _that_ the mechanism for the world's celebrities to live in LA?

~~~
jacques_chester
It's also used for heart surgeons, Nobel prize winners, elite athletes and so
on.

~~~
sireat
My father got the O visa after being on investor visa for some years. He said
it was the fastest way to the green card but quite expensive in legal fees.

While he has a couple of patents, the crucial thing was the business
notability for which lawyers recommended getting testimonials from upper
management in publicly known companies such as Apple and Dell instead of
lesser known industry specific companies.

------
seldo
Apparently "Apple Inc" and "Apple Inc." are separate companies?

~~~
jacques_chester
Welcome to the exciting world of data cleansing!

------
adkatrit
more relevant data.

[https://chartio.com/project/11916/dash/h1b-visa-
applications...](https://chartio.com/project/11916/dash/h1b-visa-
applications-2012%2C14214/public/)

------
chermanowicz
this is an ok starting point, but would be far more interesting if you were
able to compare against average industry salaries based on the job titles...
and average salaries for the employers

