
Italy bridge: Genoa motorway collapse kills at least 22 - rubenbe
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45183624
======
Freak_NL
I was looking for the site of the bridge on OpenStreetMap, but couldn't find
it. It took me a while to realize that someone already took it off the map
within an hour of it collapsing.

Impressive (and correct), if a little disconcerting:

[https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.42585/8.88840](https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.42585/8.88840)

All the access roads have been disabled too.

~~~
pella
bridge=collapsed

damage:event="2018-08-14 Genova Collapsed Bridge"

[https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/616904168#map=18/44.42599/...](https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/616904168#map=18/44.42599/8.88854)

~~~
kqr
The power the OSM tagging system.is capable of astounds me over and over.
Looking for benches with backrests in your area? There's a way to encode the
locations of those in OSM!

Are you allowed to bring your bike onboard this ferry? Does it have a toilet?
All answerable with OSM!

Of course, the downside is a diverse set of opinions on how to tag stuff, but
I get the impression OSM editors are aware of the vast public benefits of
having an agreed-upon way to tag things.

~~~
SteveCoast
You're welcome :-)

~~~
sabas_ge
I wonder if there's also @Anonymaps on HN...

------
dreen
Apparently in Ancient Rome, the ceremony of opening of the bridge consisted of
placing the Engineers and Architects who built it to be under the bridge and
marching an army Legion over the bridge. Today we have courts and laws to deal
with this but every story like this is a reminder of responsibility put into
Civil Engineers. But also it serves as a reminder that any Engineering
discipline, including Software, has to have accountability and ethics
standards.

edit: I'm not blaming anyone for this tragic accident. The cause will be found
eventually. What I mean is it's important to remember how your work may impact
lives, regardless of what that work is.

~~~
24gttghh
I don't see why one would jump to blaming the engineers from the 1960's
instead of the very government bureaucracy that was responsible for funding
the maintenance and oversight of the bridge for over five decades. I do wonder
if it is possible the "violent downburst" in the article could have created
enough force on the bridge to push it past it's load-rating though.

edit: I should add that it could very well be the fault of an engineer from 50
years ago (poor design, implementation), but this just happened today and it
will take a while for people to figure out what really happened, and without
any other data my first inclination is to think "poor maintenance" as that is
what Occam's Razor (simple: lack of maintenance is very common these days, at
least in the US: prepare to be afraid of many bridges you drive over[0]) and
then there's the whole downburst thing that seems vaguely plausible for now.

edit2: "The U.S. has 614,387 bridges, almost four in 10 of which are 50 years
or older. 56,007 — 9.1% — of the nation’s bridges were structurally deficient
in 2016, and on average there were 188 million trips across a structurally
deficient bridge each day. While the number of bridges that are in such poor
condition as to be considered structurally deficient is decreasing, the
average age of America’s bridges keeps going up and many of the nation’s
bridges are approaching the end of their design life. The most recent estimate
puts the nation’s backlog of bridge rehabilitation needs at $123 billion."[1]

[0][https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/americas-
grades/](https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/americas-grades/)

[1][https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-
item/bridges/](https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/bridges/)

~~~
toyg
_> I don't see why one would jump to blaming the engineers from the 1960's
instead of [...] the maintenance_

Unfortunately, in this case it's probably a bit of both. A bridge that was the
direct precursor to this one, collapsed after a few years. Maintenance
expenses for the Genoa bridge were already off the charts 20 years ago, and
likely went down after its privatisation. It had been described a few years
ago as a "failure of engineering" by several people.

Chances are that everyone involved in its maintenance knew that shit could hit
the fan at some point, but there was no political will to close one of the
main city arteries, and probably no budget (or even space, in that city) to
build a replacement either.

Being a civil engineer can be tough, especially in complicated countries like
Italy. The main architect is long dead; the country has been broke for decades
now; the elements are unforgiving; and people are more than ready to lynch you
if shit happens.

~~~
crescentfresh
> the country has been broke for decades now

Really?

~~~
bonzini
Broke, no. Choked by debt interest, yes.

~~~
sabas_ge
>Broke, no.

And waste of resources. But broke no, thanks €!

------
Malkut
I used to work under this bridge. Everybody knew that the bridge was unsafe.
However, the local government didn't want to close the bridge because it was
critical for the community. Some activists didn't want to close it because
they didn't want to build a replacement. So disasters happen, shit always
happens. But this was not a disaster, something unknown, this is manslaughter
from my point of view. I wish somebody pays for it, but this won't happen.

~~~
akerro
Almost the same thing happened in London a year ago, local government was too
afraid to make any action and improve the situation. No one is gonna to pay
for it, unless it's you with taxes.

[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-
tow...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-failed-
safety-inspections-before-fire-a8483151.html)

~~~
DangerousPie
Sorry but I really don't understand how this applies to Grenfell. It's not
like there were any major maintenance issues with the tower that were ignored
by the council and ended up causing it to fall down. The problem was that some
new cladding was installed which didn't follow safety regulations and thus
compromised the (in principle adequate) fire safety provisions, and that
turned a small flat fire into a disaster.

~~~
Udik
What he means is that also in the case of the Grenfell towers "everybody knew
it was going to happen". Except it's not true (as I bet it's not true in case
of the Genoa bridge as well), as among the thousands of angry complaints that
the residents sent to the council in the years before the catastrophe,
apparently none was about the choice of the cladding.

------
kristofferR
Probably the best image, showing the scale of the collapse:
[https://gfx.nrk.no/gJothoXlgJysV_sS10u_RQaXLsIZsJIlLIQrfEX8E...](https://gfx.nrk.no/gJothoXlgJysV_sS10u_RQaXLsIZsJIlLIQrfEX8EDmA)

~~~
vthallam
Why did they even build apartments under a bridge or a bridge over apartments?
Can't think what would of have happened if the whole bridge collapses.

~~~
rayiner
Because most of thr time bridges don’t collapse and it’s nice not to waste the
space and create an unpleasant pedestrian dead zone below?

~~~
booleandilemma
I wonder if they had insurance against the bridge falling?

------
pp19dd
This tragedy shows the importance of inspection and cost of maintenance of
infrastructure. In the U.S. there are approximately 600,000 highway bridges.
It's estimated that a quarter of them are at their end-of-life mark (that avg
being estimated by some at 70). Not counting over 1,700 bridges still in use
built before the 19th century, the breakdown is something like this:

    
    
        Decade   No. Built
          1900       6,084
          1910       5,893
          1920      17,883
          1930      42,009
          1940      25,971
          1950      64,085
          1960      99,975
          1970      82,129
          1980      78,279
          1990      81,410
          2000      71,475
          2010      38,038
    

This is just bridges. There are also about 84,000 dams and in a decade or two
a huge number of both of these will approach their end of life, just as a
legion of civil engineers go into retirement.

~~~
mschuster91
> This tragedy shows the importance of inspection and cost of maintenance of
> infrastructure.

Your table is _scary_ \- and it leads me to one question: why is the future
maintenance not budgeted in with _any_ public infrastructure project? For
example, a city wants a shiny new bridge... but without provable funding for
the maintenance in the future (e.g. tax projections), it is not allowed to be
built.

Of course stuff like economic shifts (leading to a loss of tax base) can't be
prevented but it's a small risk compared to some politician deciding "I need
something monumental where I can cut the opening ribbons" and loading the
future generations with maintenance debt.

~~~
zouhair
These are easily the first to get the axe, because we now live in the Uber Tax
Cuter Politician.

For me now I vote for the politician that will have the most taxes.

~~~
tim333
Certain recent presidents promised $1.5 trillion in infrastructure spending
but you don't always get what you vote for.

------
DomreiRoam
From an article in Le Temps[1], the bridge had some conception issue; Concrete
viscosity wasn't consider correctly. The cost of maintenance was very high and
a replacement was considered but the project was opposed.

[1] [https://www.letemps.ch/monde/catastrophe-genes-
lecroulement-...](https://www.letemps.ch/monde/catastrophe-genes-lecroulement-
dun-pont-11-morts)

~~~
peterwwillis
Yet another bridge design felled by over-reliance on concrete for structural
integrity. A lot more bridges are going to fail around the world because they
rely too much on concrete, and on dangerous designs without sufficient
redundancy.

I like ancient Roman bridges because they're both complex and simple, but my
favorite thing about them is how utilitarian they are. At least the examples
we have today were clearly not undermining their integrity for the sake of a
cool design (2 prestressed concrete tension beams? what the fuck?). Pretty
much the only thing that would fell them was the force of flooding rivers.
Some fell apart over time, but we're talking over a thousand years. Bridges
today barely last 100.

We have to stop letting architects design, and cities then build, hipster
bridges. Their primary consideration must be their integrity and longevity.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>We have to stop letting architects design, and cities then build, hipster
bridges. Their primary consideration must be their integrity and longevity.

Agreed. You don't have to go back to roman times to see engineering for
function over form. If there's one thing the red side of the iron curtain did
right it was not letting form compromise function when it came to public works
and civil engineering.

>At least the examples we have today were clearly not undermining their
integrity for the sake of a cool design

What people like to see follows what they're used to seeing. A good example is
the GMT800 Chevy truck platform. In 2000-2005 everyone thought they looked
like ugly slant eyed jelly beans, now they just look normal because people
have gotten used to them. If we built functional things people would get used
to how they look and start to like it.

~~~
Piskvorrr
"If there's one thing the red side of the iron curtain did right it was not
letting form compromise function when it came to public works and civil
engineering."

Um. You're technically correct (because the reasoning was "form be damned,
gotta build a wartime infrastructure, we'll just let civilians use it until
it's needed for _tanks_ "), but this was undermined by lack of maintenance.

------
ilove_banh_mi
Whenever there is a bridge failure (or similar, highly-visible civil
engineering failure) I recommend to engineers of all stripes that they go read
the works of Henry Petroski. In particular:

\- _To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design (1985)_ [1]

\- _Design Paradigms: Case Histories of Error and Judgment in Engineering
(1994)_ [2]

and

\- _Engineers of Dreams: Great Bridge Builders and The Spanning of America
(1995)_ [3]

He also wrote a salient op-ed after the 2007 bridge failure in Minneapolis:
_Learning from bridge failure_. [4]

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679734163](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679734163)

[2]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521466490](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521466490)

[3]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679760210](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679760210)

[4] [http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-
petroski4aug04-story.html](http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-
petroski4aug04-story.html)

------
paganel
Article from 2016 talking about the people that designed and built the bridge:
[http://www.ingegneri.info/news/infrastrutture-e-
trasporti/po...](http://www.ingegneri.info/news/infrastrutture-e-
trasporti/ponte-morandi-a-genova-prestigiosa-opera-di-ingegneria-o-no-parla-
ling-brencich/) (in Italian, Google Translate may help with it).

~~~
frostburg
It's a bit long to translate while typing on a phone, but the main takeaway is
that it was build in the sixties with then-novel and not fully understood
material engineering practices which then forced frequent and expensive
extraordinary repairs, to the point that it would soon have been economical to
just demolish and rebuild it.

As for people asking why the highway needs to go through Genova instead of
around, it's probably the same kind of reasoning that leads to using nuclear
bombs to build harbors and the like.

~~~
rullopat
A very small piece of land on the sea with a very steep 1000 meters tall
mountain next to it, that's why.

~~~
frostburg
I know, but are you familiar with how terrible it looks, even when it doesn't
collapse? Genova hasn't ever been the prettiest city, but still.

~~~
donkeyd
People tend to pick an ugly city over hours of traffic jams in a pretty city.

~~~
toyg
It's more that people in Italy like to live and die close to where they were
born. Genoa also was a very busy port until relatively recently, which is a
natural population magnet.

~~~
sabas_ge
It's the biggest port in Italy, and 63rd worldwide. The population increased
when the big public industrial complexes were active, now it's declined.

------
Lennu
Nothing at this scale but this summer in Finland there was a national park
bridge fail. The merging of the local municipalities caused the bridge
maintenance to be taken care of by the new municipality. In the merge the
maintenance was simply forgotten for ten years.

[https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/mondays_papers_tractor_ta...](https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/mondays_papers_tractor_taxi_hanging_bridge_fail_and_kindergarten_on_wheels/10284039)

------
joaomagalhaes
Part of the collapse -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0c4N91otMs&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0c4N91otMs&feature=youtu.be)

------
projectileboy
Coincidentally, a book has just been published on the I-35W bridge collapse,
written by one of the survivors. I wonder how many parallels there will be
(less a tragedy of design and more a tragedy of maintenance reports gone
unheeded for decades).
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077FHMNJX/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077FHMNJX/)

------
zonovar
As Italian I feel very touched. Hope the body count won't go up. What a
tragedy! This is the live streaming from an Italian newspaper
[https://video.repubblica.it/edizione/genova/genova-
crollato-...](https://video.repubblica.it/edizione/genova/genova-crollato-il-
ponte-morandi/312390/313026)

~~~
jnxx
I feel you. I think that people all over Europe are sad and shocked. This is
heartbreaking for all of us, I was in Genoa not very long ago. I hope that the
families get all the help possible.

------
nkkollaw
From what I read on Italian forums, Italian engineers say that the materials
that were used to build the bridge weren't the same chosen by the designers.

It will be a while before we learn the actual cause for the collapse, however.

~~~
jaclaz
>From what I read on Italian forums, Italian engineers say that the materials
that were used to build the bridge weren't the same chosen by the designers.

Care to post a link?

The bridge (actually a long viaduct) has been subject to several overhaulings
in the years, including the replacement of some structural parts, though these
interventions were largely related to the deck, while - at least from the
pictures I have seen - it seems more like a pier collapsed, which is
"unusual".

------
donjoe
There is a live stream from the bridge currently available on youtube:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBjfUyvtr3w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBjfUyvtr3w)

------
codedokode
I don't know if this brigde collapse could be prevented but they could at
least not build bridges above buildings. There probably was a better place for
the bridge.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Genoa is a very 3D (hilly) city, so they really don’t have a choice.

------
tyrex2017
hn is the one site i come to detox from news (porn).

hopefully for me, i wont see so many news here in the future

------
maury91
Every time I refresh the page the title (count) changes, what a tragedy!

------
talonx
Why is this on HN?

~~~
andrepd
Bridges are engineering.

~~~
abhiminator
And it's a matter of public safety, collapses like these.

~~~
noefingway
Highly recommend Henry Petroski's book on bridge building
[https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/to-engineer-is-human-the-
role-...](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/to-engineer-is-human-the-role-of-
failure-in-successful-design_henry-
petroski/247221/#isbn=0679734163&idiq=493725)

~~~
abhiminator
That picture of the Tacoma Narrows' incident on the cover totally grabbed my
eyeballs. This book looks super interesting, thank you for the recommendation.

