
Valve demonstrates Steam Controller [video] - evo_9
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/10/11/valve-demonstrates-steam-controller-in-new-video/
======
haberman
I have never been able to get good at using analog sticks with FPSs. I'm so
bad at it that if the game doesn't have auto-aim, I basically can't enjoy the
game because I am sucking so badly.

The problem for me is that the analog sticks are velocity-based; ie. you don't
get to control the position directly, you can only control the first
derivative of the position, the velocity. That means instead of just moving
the controller where you want to go, you have to move in the _direction_ you
want to go and hold it there for just the right amount of time.

I'm amazed that so many people can do this so well, because no matter how much
time I play I still suck at it. It just feels so clumsy.

So the idea of being able to use a handheld controller that isn't velocity-
based really appeals to me, though I do worry a bit that the active area is so
small.

~~~
jotm
I can't believe that the trackball (very old tech might I say) hasn't replaced
the analog sticks yet!

People have already modded controllers with a trackball, and it works great
for the most part, bringing the best of both worlds together, yet Sony and
Microsoft still insist on using analog sticks...

~~~
banachtarski
The reason is because it doesn't work. How do you walk forward continuously
for a long stretch? Do you roll it to some position and keep it there? Do you
keep rolling?

~~~
thu
Yet you have two such analog sticks. But usually only one is used the way you
describe, to keep walking continuously. The other is usually used to rotate a
bit, to look around you. So it seems having an analog stick on the left of the
controller and a track ball on the right would be nice.

~~~
emil0r
The rollers for the tracking ball would collect a lot of dust. Could be one
reason they opted out of it. Cleaning the rollers for the track ball every
other week to get a smooth feeling would quickly become bothersome, contrary
to the nice feeling of relaxation or thrill the console is supposed to give
you.

~~~
oblio
I have a Logitech trackball: [http://www.logitech.com/assets/32954/3/logitech-
wireless-tra...](http://www.logitech.com/assets/32954/3/logitech-wireless-
trackball-m570.png)

Granted, it doesn't reach console levels of use on most days, but I only clean
it once every month or so, and even then it's easy - Logitech has a simple
system to pop the ball out and cleaning it is very easy and fast.

Using a trackball is definitely not a major chore.

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baby
I was really skeptical about this and I'm getting more and more skeptical.

1\. See how he always lift his right hand thumb to reproduce the same
movement, sometimes three times, just to go through the screen (in Civ5).

2\. Also the fact that buttons get mapped like a "pie chart" on the trackpads
could have been a good idea, but we need buttons. We forget the luxury of
having buttons with all those new tactile screens because we want more tactile
surface, but for a controller we hold in our hands, we need some feedbacks
bellow our fingers. This is really a bad idea...

3\. I'll have to admit that it looks like a better alternative than joysticks
for FPS games.

EDIT: As someone else pointed out, if you get two controllers : a valve one
for FPS, RTS, games that works well with it, and a Xbox/PS4 controller for the
rest, then it's a very good thing.

~~~
gfodor
What exactly are you skeptical of? The skepticism previously was that this
controller would be unusable. This video shows a person playing PC games with
the controller rapidly and with skill.

I still want to see a platformer and a fighting game since the best mapping is
a little unclear. (Though these a) won't be showstoppers and b) are likely to
be workable.) Humans are adaptable and if this controller is reasonably usable
in all the main gaming genres then very quickly you'll see people get really,
really good at using it.

~~~
PeterisP
It doesn't show a person playing PC games rapidly - it shows, for example, a
common Civ5 action (moving cursor to a position in menu and clicking) being
slow and awkward, requiring multiple separate finger movements just to push
the cursor from middle of screen to side.

It's better than any other couch-options, but the controls in Civ still looked
frustrating instead of fun.

~~~
gfodor
He lifts his finger just as much in Portal play as he does in Civ. It's
incredibly fast. The ergonomics of this thing make it pretty hard to say that
it will be frustrating to track the cursor across the screen just because you
have to lift your finger. Think about how you use a trackball. This is
basically a trackpad device with the thumb ergonomics of a trackball.

~~~
PeterisP
The last time I touched (or saw) a trackball was a dozen years ago, so it's
hard to say - but on any acceptable trackpad its dpi should allow to move
across the screen in a single motion, shouldn't it?

I.e., if I move my finger across the whole steam controller right pad, then
the sensitivity should be high enough to move across the whole screen in that
motion while still allowing enough accuracy to click where I want.

~~~
chc
I would be shocked if it couldn't be configured that way.

~~~
PeterisP
If, for example, some pad was an inch-wide and with 1000 dpi resolution, then
it couldn't ever be configured to cover a 2000 pixel wide screen that way - we
don't know the specs of the controller elements yet.

~~~
pdaddyo
With some acceleration it could - finer control with small movements, but
quick movements provide more travel. Not sure how well this would work, but I
like Apple's implementation on their trackpad (I realise I may be in the
minority here!).

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bbx
Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo
rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360
Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2
types of input.

The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video)
is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand
gently set down on your desktop. I guess we'll never obtain a perfect
alternative to the mouse. And the Steam controller will probably leave both
joystick users _and_ mouse users somehow frustrated because it tries to be
_both_ at the same time. But considering the variety of Steam's library, it
was probably Valve's only solution. Anyway, like this comment, everything
still remains speculation until you've tried it yourself (for a reasonable
amount of time).

~~~
socillion
There would be two disadvantages compared to traditional mouse-and-keyboard:
1) a low number of total possible bindings, and 2) a lower range of possible
movements compared to a mouse.

1) is straightforward, if you don't have enough input buttons you're out of
luck. A problem for games like SC2 and WoW.

2) this problem forces you to use acceleration for input, which is commonly
accepted to ruin precision (reproducibility) because you lose the easy mapping
between inches and pixels.

I'll use Team Fortress 2 (an FPS) as an example for this. First, if 180
degrees takes more than 1 swipe, the controls are effectively unusable. The
demonstration indicates this may be the case.

You need to be able to flip 180 degrees to check your back, as well as make
other large and fast movements like those required by rocket jumping. At the
same time, you _also_ need the ability to make very small aim adjustments.
It's guaranteed that the trackpad will be weak somewhere along this variety of
movements.

It's unsurprising that it will be a poor replacement for mouse and keyboard,
but existing controllers have demonstrated that people are fine with
sacrificing resolution of controls for other advantages like relative
simplicity and easily playing with friends.

~~~
optymizer
Having played all StarCraft games so far, somewhat well, I can get by with
maybe 8 buttons as Protoss: A, H, E, P, B, V, G, Z. Other races might need
other buttons, but 8 is reasonable. If I remember correctly, the Steam
Controller has 16 buttons. The other functionality is 1 click away and is
(usually) not hat time sensitive, if you are not from Korea :-) obviously it's
not for competitive players.

Also, flipping the camera 180 degrees can be achieved with a button press. I
think I remember Need For Speed having this feature, though they didn't allow
you to flip the car, just the camera. Anyway, I think pressing a button to
flip 180 is an acceptable solution given the constraints of the controller.

~~~
socillion
> obviously it's not for competitive players.

Yep, I just wanted to explain why it isn't :) Having to click rather than
press a key is a big downside, but if I remember correctly SC2 already has a
keybind mode that limits you to a subset of the full qwerty keyboard. World of
Warcraft is a good example of a PC game that uses a huge swathe of keyboard,
players often have 30-60 unique keybinds.

My point about the 180 was that you need a wide range of different motions.
Sometimes it'll be 170, sometimes 145, etc, sometimes only 2.4 degrees, and if
a mouse user uses 1 swipe when you need 2 or 3 you're toast. A common tactic
for Scouts in TF2 is to stay in the air above your head, which from experience
is basically impossible to beat on a trackpad.

I'm looking forward to the Steambox/Steam controller, if only because I have
quite a few Steam games accumulated and the biggest reason for me to avoid
consoles is that I'd be forced to buy multiple copies of games.

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WhoIsSatoshi
If anyone else is looking for the straight youtube vid it can be found here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAjkbNq4xI#t=12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAjkbNq4xI#t=12)

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purplelobster
Looks like what I expected. When it comes to FPS games, it's difficult to know
his skill level, but it's probably not something you'd use competitively. Many
times better than an analog stick though, so I'd use it for casual gaming.

~~~
skizm
Yea, I can't remember where I saw it but i think they tried pitting top COD
players from console vs PC and even with auto aim assist on PC player
destroyed console players. Mouse is just too accurate of a pointing device
compared to joysticks (physical or virtual).

~~~
brymaster
This might be what you were remembering?
[http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/07/23/2127253/pc-
gamers-t...](http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/07/23/2127253/pc-gamers-too-
good-for-consoles-gamers)

It also reminds me about how CS:GO was originally supposed to allow true
cross-platform play (PC against console) but Valve scrapped that support
because they couldn't work out a reasonable way to patch on consoles due to
"patch scheduling" on PS3.

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PeterisP
The demonstrated FPS aim-and-shoot was very slow, it's not clear if it's
because they couldn't do it better because of the controller, or didn't do it
faster because they did everything slowly to be clearly visible how it
happens.

A full speed try-to-do-the-best-you-can FPS aiming demo would be welcome.

~~~
baby
They're not trying to emulate mouse + keyboard precision neither. I don't
think you could have played like that with a Xbox/PS controller (I know I
couldn't have, it would have looked more smooth but not as precise for
headshots).

For me it seems like FPS with this controller will be somewhere between
Xbox/PS3 controller and mouse+keyboard.

~~~
PeterisP
I'd like to see a video that I can compare with, for example, controlling the
same game on a good laptop touchpad - the current video is weak even compared
to that; if they can do better, then they should make a video that proves it.

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winslow
I was surprised to see the negative comments on the article page. I'm
personally excited for it. As I think it will open up "couch" gaming to more
genres and it looks like a pretty decent controller when compared against
other controllers. I don't think it will be a true mouse + keyboard
replacement but will do great for big screen HTPC / SteamMachine type setups.

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yaiu
Valve released this video on their Youtube channel. I don't think it was
necessary to link to a blog post about the video.

~~~
Miyamoto
Joystiq has a habit of downloading YouTube videos and self-hosting them with
their watermark. (How is that even legal?)

Then when people visit their blog articles, they see watermarked videos and
think they're exclusives.

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grogenaut
Basically we still don't know enough to know how good it's going to be. Having
used the next gen controllers at PAX, it's going to very hard to be as good at
they are at being a controller.

Valve's controller does seem to be a good 1/2 step for mouse/keyboard
replacement, eg very good accuracy, but maybe not the best of all worlds. Also
able to do controller based games but not quite as good as a real controller.

to me it's a sign that they hope to help developers support console versions
by making a control system that will work well for games designed for mouse
and keyboard, if not as well as a mouse and keyboard. But to be honest,
standard controllers on games not designed for them are quite bad. Moving a
"mouse" pointer replacement with a controller is not good. So I think it will
be good in that regard. It'll also be better than a keyboard and have MUCH
better support than a logitech controller for games that want controllers.

So I see it as a good middle ground. And I think this will allow game devs to
support both more easily. It's not the tactic I would take to make games work
on both, but I think it's a good approach even if it isn't going to be the
best of either world.

However, if it IS as good as the next gen console controllers and it does
better than them at mouse/keyboard then it's a big win.

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ahomescu1
Looking at this, I'm starting to wonder why trackballs on console controllers
never became popular.

~~~
jlgreco
My guess: dirt.

With as few moving parts as they typically have, console controllers already
experience durability issues for less... hygienic, players. With trackballs
that issue is compounded, even if you make them easily removable so you can
clean them (just having to clean them at all would be more of a hassle than
people are use to).

~~~
Sanddancer
Logitech's optical trackballs are pretty bulletproof. No moving parts; they
use a special dot pattern to detect how the trackball's being moved around.

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Avitas
It would be nice if a single two-handed controller or even some type of two
element controller (ala. wii) could somehow approach the accuracy of a mouse
and a keyboard.

This clearly does not appear to be at the same accuracy and speed level as the
combination of a mouse and keyboard. There may be a console controller that
can approach, equal or exceed the speed and accuracy of a mouse and keyboard,
but this doesn't seem to be it.

Addition: I suspect that every steambox will have USB ports available for
whatever controller, keyboard and mouse floats your boat.

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Miyamoto
Looks like a great alternative to the Xbox PC controller, but like everyone
has been thinking, this is in no way a serious replacement for a mouse.
Especially if you're a competitive gamer.

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vyrotek
The biggest problem is not the controller itself but the expectation that
people that use this will be able to compete at all with those using a
keyboard & mouse. The only reason FPS games currently work on consoles is
because everyone is essentially equally handicapped. Even a casual player
using a mouse dominates versus game pads.

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dfkf
Maybe his aiming in a fps is not up to competitive level of quake/cs, but this
is definitely a step up from controllers for these types of games. Hopefully,
this thing will bring the skill of being both fast and precise to consoles. It
will be good for consoles, and good for gaming in general.

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bobbles
I'd like to see a traditional platformer like rogue legacy played with this,
and how the left pad compares

~~~
kemayo
The developer of Super Meat Boy, which is a very precision-platformy game,
talked about trying it: [http://tommyrefenes.tumblr.com/post/62476523677/my-
time-with...](http://tommyrefenes.tumblr.com/post/62476523677/my-time-with-
the-steam-controller)

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yeukhon
I get tired of using mouse and keyboard, and the same goes to a controller. It
would be nice to play with hands in the air..

~~~
zobzu
I wanna aim with my finger and with zero latency. Heck it's probably possible
to hack something like that already in fact. Not sure if we'd be as good as
with the mouse as you will lose awareness (hand in front of you = can't see as
well)

but it'd be fun.

~~~
yeukhon
Hehehe or maybe with eyes. Hence virtual reality :3 imagine you could just
sleep in and imagine all the actions <3

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cabirum
They could just make an app for a phone to act as a wireless controller.

In fact, many mobile games already use similar control layouts.

~~~
__david__
And that would be just as horrible an experience as current joystick style
controls are on touchscreen smartphone games.

