
DebConf20: offer to speak in Palestine censored - fsfesicherheit
https://debian.community/debconf20-palestine-messages-censored-debian-project/
======
throwaway202001
If(?) you really want to read this, please note that the site is closely
connected to a former Debian developer with an axe to grind and at least
people in his very close proximity acting in bad faith [0][1].

Please use your judgement as to the quality of the contents of
[https://debian.community](https://debian.community). I have no horse in this
race, but I do notice it is a prime example of Godwin's law [2]...

[0] dig debian.community, dig danielpocock.com

[1]
[https://nm.debian.org/public/people/dd_all](https://nm.debian.org/public/people/dd_all)
\- no Daniel Pocock anymore

[2] [https://debian.community/nazi-rhetoric-creeping-into-
debian/](https://debian.community/nazi-rhetoric-creeping-into-debian/)

~~~
jwilk
Note that this is the same person whose message was allegedly censored.

The actual reason the message didn't reach the mailing list it that he's
banned there.

------
slim
IMHO the carefulness that was put in writing that message make it impossible
to interpret it as antisemitic or bad faith. Actually interpreting it as
antisemitic is bad faith.

~~~
ealexhudson
I suspect the care put into the message was more to ensure that this specific
example would look reasonable on its own. When set in the context of the site
it's posted on, and the other sites associated with the author (e.g.
fsfesicherheit's other postings to HN), it looks more like a pattern of quite
targeted harassment.

I personally have no skin in this game, but if the message was censored from
the list I would give the listmasters the benefit of the doubt that this was
due to the author of the e-mail rather than the content per se.

~~~
s_dev
>(e.g. fsfesicherheit's other postings to HN)

A single other submission (an article on the Berlin Wall) and two comments
relating to said article consitutes a HN posting history?

I'm not seeing anti-semitism here but I am seeing censorship.

~~~
XMPPwocky
If you click through and read the article, it has nothing to do with the
Berlin Wall.

------
tompccs
Headline is misleading. He didn't 'offer to speak', he proposed splitting the
conference 50:50 between Israel and Palestine. Fine, if that's something you
think would benefit the community, but then should we also be splitting
conferences in China between Beijing and Tibet? Russia and East Ukraine? India
and Kashmir?

Either turn every academic conference into a geopolitical soapbox or just host
it where the engineers are and leave it at that.

~~~
techntoke
Why is in order for us to do this, we have to do that? What about supporting
Palestine bothers you so much?

~~~
tompccs
Nothing about supporting Palestine bothers me in the slightest. I'm explaining
why someone might think a thread about organising a conference about an open
source operating system in a city with many open source contributors is not
the appropriate place to bring it up.

Don't bring geopolitics into everything. That way lies madness.

~~~
Udik
So would you have participated to a developer conference in apartheid South
Africa? You think the issue was some sterile "geopolitics" debate?

------
tek-cyb-org
Why the censorship though? That is pretty nefarious.

Palestinians basically live in israel, but have manufactured concrete borders
put around them. Inhibiting their freedom of movement in their own country.
Not allowing them to go to conferences. So holding a deb community member
asking the community if they would be willing to spend some time for the
engineers less fortunate, is actually quite awesome of him.

~~~
arpa
We have only the account of "censored" one. Censorship is not a fact.

------
diegoperini
> Can you see any way in which this message could be considered anti-semitic?

I accept the message can be disturbing to some (not to me) but I believe it is
not anti-semitic.

~~~
Udik
> the message can be disturbing to some

How would it be disturbing?

~~~
diegoperini
For any kind of discussion where there are multiple conflicting ideas, it is
likely that an argument based even at least partially on opinion can be
disturbing to one or some of the parties.

~~~
Udik
There is no opinion here. Just someone who advances a pretty harmless
proposal.

~~~
diegoperini
There are more facts than opinions there and thus, I totally support what the
author is proposing! But this doesn't mean the whole piece is written in a
neutral tone.

Here is the paragraph which includes the author's opinion, initiated with a
seemingly rhetorical question:

> Is Wirt really fighting anti-semitism, or could the DebConf20 organizers
> simply be afraid of any discussion that may deter wealthy Israeli sponsors?
> This doesn't suggest that Israelis have actually sought such influence, it
> is more of an indication of how easily some volunteers with official roles
> in Debian are bamboozled when anyone, whether it is an Israeli company or a
> Silicon Valley company, shows up with a fistful of cash.

------
ghostDancer
Surprise someone flagged something mentioning censorship talking about Israel.

~~~
m_b
And now it's gone, why flagging, then taking it away? Why no infos? What's
happening?

~~~
ghostDancer
This way won't stay on the front page . Someone flags it and when time passes
mods unflag it but it stays out of the front page , it reaches to less people.
Perfect manipulation. Edit: I don't mean HN mods manipulation, just someone
who doesn't want this info to reach a wider audience

~~~
m_b
Thanks for the input.

------
woodpanel
_Many people remain uncomfortable about how DebConf organizers are handling
the challenges presented in the middle east._

As someone, who has zero experience with DebConf whatsoever, I have to say, I
can see how such an intro could be interpreted as anti-semitic. What _"
challenges"_ would have an Israli conference have to handle? How and why. If
it's just because it is Israeli then do all Israeli conferences need to
"handle" this challenge?

Should DebCon be boycotted if it doesn't live up to said "challenges"?

But maybe someone can explain, what is meant by "challenges"?

Also, as a sidenote, the article doesn't help it's case either, if it uses the
Holocaust as a reason to criticize Israel.

~~~
slim
For example : the territory is zoned, there are military checkpoints and
depending on your ethnicity, you are not free to go where you want. So if you
are Muslim for instance you could be banned from attending the conference.

~~~
woodpanel
_> the territory is zoned_

Haifa is not zoned. It's inside Israel, which once entered you're free to
wander around.

 _> there are military checkpoints_

Given the threat posed by terrorism, blaming the Israelis for having military
checkpoints on their land borders is kind of disengenious

 _> depending on your ethnicity_

Arabic is an official language of Israel. 20% of its people are Muslim. I've
never witnessed a security check where men wearing a Taqiyah were treated
different. Please ride the Jerusalem tram, which is packed almost 50/50 with
orthodox jews and orthodox muslims and tell me, this is an Apartheit-state and
not a place of civic order.

 _> So if you are Muslim for instance you could be banned from attending the
conference._

No, you're not. As the place of the conference is Haifa, once you've managed
to pass border-customs at the airport your movement is unrestriced inside
Israel.

