
Signifier – a Brutalist response to 17th century typefaces - firloop
https://klim.co.nz/blog/signifier-design-information/
======
FoundersGrotesk
Kia ora!

I’m Kris Sowersby, designer of Signifier and author of the design info post on
Klim.

First up, I’d like to thank you all for taking the time to read it. I really
appreciate it.

I’ve neither heard of Hacker News nor been here before. But I’m chuffed that
you’re discussing and critiquing with such wit and (on the whole) sensitivity.
I never expected it from this quarter, and it’s something that the online type
& design community seems to be lacking. I’ll address some specific points in
thread where necessary.

—Chur.

------
crazygringo
The font is certainly interesting conceptually, and doesn't look bad (though
is largely indistinguishable from its "Garamond" source at normal sizes).

And while I've read the whole thing and understand why the author considers
this to be a "Brutalist" philosophy, I respectfully disagree. This is merely
vectors adhering to a grid, which has nothing to do with the "exposing raw
materials" philosophy that is the core of Brutalism. [1]

To me, early pixel-based terminal fonts feel like the digital typography
version of Brutalism -- not even attempting curves or calligraphy at all, but
embracing the raw material of pixels for exactly what they are.

If the author wants to bring a similar Brutalist raw-materials approach to
modern vector-based typography I'd find that interesting as well -- but that
would seem to have been done a long time ago, with typography based solely on
primitive geometric shapes, of which classic typefaces from the 20th century
would seem most suitable (Futura [2], Avant Garde [3]).

In the end, Signifier is a cool concept typeface. But I unfortunately think
the author fails at connecting it to Brutalism in any meaningful way, despite
their attempt.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futura_(typeface)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futura_\(typeface\))

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITC_Avant_Garde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITC_Avant_Garde)

~~~
Semiapies
Brutalism has been hot the last year or two, so people like to emptily invoke
it for their own designs.

~~~
FoundersGrotesk
I agree — it’s been a buzzword in the graphic design industry for at least 10
years now. During Signifier’s 15 year development I've seen many trends
surface and disappear! And during the a year we spent working on the marketing
concept and approach for Signifier, I struggled with even mentioning the term
“Brutalism”. In the end, I decided it was OK, because it was true to my
process, research and thinking.

We work very hard to ensure concept, execution and communication are as solid
as they possibly can be. I would never emptily invoke anything.

------
jeffrallen
I'm glad there are people in this world who can completely unironically and
confidently write "Signifier’s digital immateriality draws on a deeply
material past. Acknowledging the processes and tools of digital form-making, I
worked consciously with the computer to recast the lead, antimony, and tin of
the 17th century Fell Types into ones and zeros."

I certainly couldn't!

~~~
earthboundkid
Anything that smart people spend a lifetime doing—programming, font making,
engineering, woodworking, auto repair, painting (house _and_ fine art)—has
depths that look completely crazy to outsiders.

~~~
enriquto
You do not really need to be a smart person for that. Infinite depth is within
everyone's reach! Cf. xkcd 1095[0]

[0] [https://xkcd.com/1095/](https://xkcd.com/1095/)

~~~
saghm
I expected [https://xkcd.com/915/](https://xkcd.com/915/) before I clicked

~~~
enriquto
There's also the one about cast iron skillets, that has a similar atmosphere
[https://xkcd.com/1905/](https://xkcd.com/1905/)

Curiously, the three numbers do not seem really independent.

~~~
toper-centage
> Curiously, the three numbers do not seem really independent.

Those numbers.. Can't be a coincidence.

~~~
toper-centage
Unfortunately i couldn't find evidence of the pattern going any further or
back (195, 591, 2195 etc).

------
blululu
This is a surprisingly nice type face. It looks blocky when blown up, but it
is really clean for small text. It took me a second to zoom in on the text and
realize that the article is written in the typeface itself. I'm curious is
there might be a legibility benefit to having a more rectilinear font. Perhaps
the transfer function of TTF's anti-aliasing is cleaner along the horizontal
and vertical axes rather than along a diagonal or curve. Having a less curvy
font might be easier to render since the edges align with the display.

~~~
warent
Interestingly, many fonts look very strange when zoomed in because they employ
all kinds of tricks to exploit optical illusions to give their fonts
particular expression, such as curves and pinches that are almost
imperceptible when viewed at a normal size. Unfortunately at the moment I
can't find an article which clearly demonstrates what I'm talking about.

~~~
kindall
Hinting is what that's called.

~~~
raphlinus
I think ~warent is referring to features like ink traps, which are features
that do look strange up-close, but might help increase contrast or other
qualities at small sizes.

~~~
nyanpasu64
Maybe overshoot as well?

------
samatman
I love it.

I don't have much more to add than that: I _really_ like this font. It pushes
proportion in so many subtle ways, and the result is just... I want to write a
book so that I can typeset it in Signifier.

I wouldn't have thought it was possible to make a font that's so recognizably
classic and yet so distinctively itself. That took taste, and just enormous
reserves of effort; but an effort which shows itself in a restrained, elegant
fashion.

I firmly disagree with the comment that it's indistinguishable from Garamond!
The f, d, and g immediately tell me that this isn't Garamond, and that's
before I opened up Font Book to compare some more subtle letters. The f
positively looms over the subsequent letter, while the loop of g swells
voluptuously into the space around it. Yet somehow, they manage to do this
without crowding their neighbors.

That's really hard! Again, love it. Great font.

------
breakfastduck
I've never really thought too much about the font industry of the past - this
is quite the interesting read.

The font he's created is great. I wasn't fond of the sharpness initially,
especially when the text is blown up, but it reads wonderfully when it's at a
'normal' text size.

I must confess - I had no idea fonts were so expensive to license! (Not a
criticism of the cost, just ignorant until now).

~~~
EricE
I had the same experience - found the blown up version to not be appealing at
all, but ended up really liking, as you put it, the readability of the normal
sized text.

------
cpach
Related: If anyone is curious about the Fell Types, there are digitised
versions available here:
[https://iginomarini.com/fell/](https://iginomarini.com/fell/)

------
udev
Not sure if it just me, but I find it considerably more relaxing to read the
text from the photo of the page (with all the surface and font imperfections)
than read text written with the same font rendered on solid background (this
time perfect).

It's almost like I need the paper and font imperfections to read faster.

My theory is that the brain somehow uses the paper and font imperfections to
coregister (align) the binocular images from our eyes, which leads to smoother
reading.

~~~
Koshkin
This makes sense to me, as I had the same impression; my theory is that it is
the diversity and the individuality of the letters in the text that makes
reading easier, and slight imperfections and irregularities only add to this.

The "brutalist" digital version, on the other hand, seemed to me more of a
demonstration of how far one can go using tricks without anyone noticing.

------
bovermyer
That epilogue was poignant and lent an entirely different feel to the entire
article.

~~~
ARandomerDude
He used Aristotelian terms but misunderstood them, probably because of how we
now use "material" in ordinary English.

The letters on the screen have form (shape, meaning) and matter (pixels). The
matter of the letter has changed but it still has matter in the Aristotelian
sense.

~~~
bovermyer
I was referring to the tragedy in the author's life.

~~~
oska
We don't know how old the author's mother was when she died. My grandfather
died of cancer at 79. While it was sad (and I still feel sad when I think of
it) I wouldn't ever describe it as a 'tragedy'.

Only commenting because I feel this word is overused these days.

~~~
FoundersGrotesk
The death of a loved one is almost always a personal tragedy, regardless of
age. Overuse of a word doesn’t make it any less so.

~~~
oska
You're simply changing the meaning of the word then and also, I would suggest,
debasing the complex experience of death by suggesting it is a singular,
universal experience of 'personal tragedy'.

Everyone loses loved ones and in many cases it is _not_ experienced as tragedy
but as death being a normal and essential part of life.

------
KaiserPro
I love the post, I hate the font.

But I am glad they have made it. They also raise an important point: half-
arsed revivals of older fonts. I've been trying to make posters in the style
of 1930s adverts. There are a few challenges, but one of the biggest is
finding the correct font that hasn't been modernised.

~~~
FoundersGrotesk
I’d hazard a guess that most posters from the era are hand-lettered, not
typeset from fonts. You’ll be hard-pressed to fake a 30’s aesthetic with
modern digital fonts.

------
refresher
I loved that after seeing the comparisons, you can notice that the article was
writing in Signifier. Did not love the CPU usage of the page (at lease for me,
it rocketed up. macOS, Safari)

~~~
RaoulP
Same here - macOS, Safari, and I've never heard my fans spin so loudly before.
I wonder what causes it.

~~~
earthboundkid
React is the new PHP: a dangerously welcoming ecosystem for amateurs. If you
look at the trace, you see it's firing a timer for LazyImage every 300
milliseconds that that's causing constant repaints. It's terrible, but no one
believes in craftsmanship anymore. :-)

    
    
                // Give react a chance to render before starting to poll
                // This gives us more chance of the opacity transition being visible
                // Should also fix rendering glitches in firefox where native image placeholder shows briefly
                setTimeout(pollForComplete, 300);
            },

~~~
jazzyjackson
Hmm, settimeout is one shot, setinterval is the repeating one, unless that’s
calling itself recursively?

Anyway using delays hoping that things are in place in 300ms is asking for
trouble, I thought reacts whole thing was to put everything in a component
lifecycle callback so everything happens in the order it needs to

~~~
earthboundkid
Good point! There must be some other interval causing the timer to be set.

~~~
editkid
Hello! Thanks for having a fossick through our code ;) Happy to report that
the issue has now been resolved. I've added a post explaining the underlying
cause a little up in the thread. (I'm not sure how notifications work on HN,
so figured I'd drop a reply here, too).

~~~
earthboundkid
Awesome!

------
omnimus
Apple has for some reason licensed some of Klim type typefaces. If you are on
latest version of OSX you can activate/download them from Fontbook.

Klim type are objectively top 3 type foundries in the world not many people
doing better than them. So its a great deal.

------
knolax
True brutalism would've been a bitmap font.

------
achairapart
Wow. This is a wonderful work of digital craftsmanship. I was absolutely blown
away.

------
warent
This is a beautiful font, it looks like the kind of thing I would expect to be
seen used in a dictionary or encyclopedia.

------
danboarder
This is the CyberTruck of fonts, and it is brilliant in a similar way. I think
this designer is on to something. The legacy type styles are proven over
centuries - or have we just been conditioned over centuries? I think of this
as a Serif with the legibility of a Sans.

~~~
FoundersGrotesk
If you tune into our livestream next week, you’ll see me stride onto the stage
and confidently throw a steel ball at the… oh.

------
DC-3
I'm not sure I like the font but this sure is a lovely article

------
dvaun
I like using interesting fonts and would definitely grab this for my Kindle if
I could afford the price tag.

~~~
dddddaviddddd
For the curious, $400 for use on three devices (includes using the font to
create printed materials)
[https://klim.co.nz/buy/signifier/](https://klim.co.nz/buy/signifier/)

~~~
sibane
No one really needs an entire family though. Get the Regular, Regular Italic
and Bold to do everything a normal person would need a typeface for. $150.
Everything else if for weirdos and designers buying type for their clients.

~~~
just_steve_h
"… weirdos and designers buying type for their clients" – but, I repeat
myself!

------
kiliancs
This was a great read. The subject is interesting, but I also enjoyed how it's
written. Thanks.

------
aaroninsf
The philosophical context of font design is one of those niches of rarified
contemporary hothouse cultural specialization that makes me thing, _this is as
far as we go, as a culture._

Reading these things I inevitably experience intellectual vertigo, the deep-
zoom-into-a-fractal sense of perfectly accurate, almost totally unnecessary,
precision at microscopy scale. It's more Gibson than Gibson, not least if
you're aware of Douglas Hofstadter's obsession with "letter spirits" and their
multidimensional relationship to GAI...

We had a good run.

~~~
pembrook
Maybe you should take a look in the mirror, we're all toiling in rarified
contemporary hothouse cultural specialization.

"Hey, here's a cool article about a guy who spent a year creating another
over-engineered javascript framework because he had an aesthetic dislike of
semicolons. This matters! Upvote!"

Welcome to Hacker News.

------
paultopia
Is this a joke? Is there an actual typeface somewhere here underneath all the
pomo theory? Are the pictures of one font or many?

~~~
chipsa
It's set in the typeface it's talking about.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I love the fact that the typeface is so bad at signifying anything that it's
possible for some readers not to notice it.

~~~
sibane
Or it's so good at signifying the meaning of the symbols that the reader is
never pulled out of the text.

------
throw_m239339
I'm sorry, but again, none of that stuff has anything to do with "brutalism"
which has been made a complete buzzword for the last 4 years, just because
"design needs trends". No it doesn't. Design for your audience and don't
follow "trends".

~~~
petters
What would a "true" brutalist font look like?

Brutalism is about exposing the materials used in construction (i.e. the raw
concrete is visible). So maybe a font that also shows its own spline control
points?

~~~
FoundersGrotesk
My understanding of the Brutalism ethos is not about exposing the material
itself used in construction, but “… rather the quality of the material… ”

A font with it's own BCP's exposed exists!

[https://djr.com/gimlet-xray/](https://djr.com/gimlet-xray/)

But they're still _drawn_ with béziers… the're not the BCP's themselves. Now
that would be a recursive/fractal vector nightmare.

