
Wireless neutrino network could pass through the center of the Earth - SkippyZA
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122535-wireless-neutrino-network-could-pass-through-the-center-of-the-earth
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archgoon
Well, it's nice to see that I'm not completely crazy ;). I'm happy to see,
however, that the article pretty much sums up why this isn't actually a
feasible solution.

In addition to the extreme bulkiness of both the emitter and detectors (See
Super Kamiokande), neutrinos only really get generated in certain particle
decays. This means you're pretty much stuck with needing a nuclear reactor (of
varying sizes) to generate them. Although this alone isn't necessarily a
problem, it's really not something governments are going to be overly happy
with garage hackers doing. :(

Can the detectors be sized down? Maybe. Unfortunately, there's a good chunk of
inherent randomness in neutrino particle detection. It may be that there's no
good way to actually detect them short of brute force: Big detectors, lots of
neutrinos, and just playing the odds.

We can dream though. And investigate.

~~~
arethuza
"it's really not something governments are going to be overly happy with
garage hackers doing"

Fusion reactions aren't _that_ difficult to create:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor>

Of course controlled fusion reactions that generate more energy than you put
in are _slightly_ more difficult.

~~~
archgoon
I didn't say that they were difficult, I said that governments (or at least
your neighbors) aren't big fan of neutron emitting sources. ;)

I'm also not saying those concerns are justified, Nuclear Theatre and all
that.

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crusso
Misleading headline. No one is thinking seriously about building a neutrino
network. As the article mentions at the end, the detector has to be massive
and the transmitter uses a great deal of power.

There would need to be an extraordinary breakthrough in our ability to detect
neutrinos before something like this would be practical.

Neat trick and impressive that they could make it work at all, though.

~~~
feralchimp
Or the communications requirements of Earth's population would need to change
in such a way that communicating through miles of planet becomes our most
practical option.

For example, nuclear/EMP attacks kill all the comm satellites and force what's
left of humanity deep underground...where luckily some superpower or three has
tucked away big particle accelerators in addition to MREs.

Or perhaps off-planet, trying to send messages to mining operators, or through
asteroid fields...work with me here.

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rlpb
Perhaps this is what all the aliens are using. Much better than dealing with
EM interference?

When will SETI be switching to neutrino detectors?

~~~
daliusd
Propose it:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/qwv9g/im_seth_shostak_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/qwv9g/im_seth_shostak_senior_astronomer_at_the_seti/)

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juiceandjuice
This isn't the first time this has been thought of. A particle physicist had
suggested nuclear submarines be laced with scintillators so the could receive
messages sent by neutrinos a while back, which seems like a somewhat feasible,
practical use of this technology.

~~~
RuggeroAltair
Yes. One of the problem with that is unfortunately quite silly. We don't know
the exact position of submarines, since the water interferes with the GPS-like
systems and makes them unreliable, while neutrino beams need to be highly
collimated to create a big enough flux.

~~~
ajuc
So we need neutrino-based GPS?

I wonder if we could create black hole out of protons and neutrons only (to
make it possible to move this black hole with electrostatic field), make it
the precise size that it will evaporate at the same rate that it will absorb
particles from sun - so it will be stable, put it with driving mechanism and
precise clock on the orbit around the sun to occlude for example 10x10 meters
on the Earth, and move it with the driver to create CRT-like pattern at
changing frequency - one period at X Hz, one at 100X Hz, repeat.

You can decode your position on earth based on time between the 2 holes in
neutrino pulse.

Should I file for a patent?

~~~
juiceandjuice
A submarine can use dynamics and seafloor maps to know where it's at, I think
he was alluding to the fact that it's harder for us to know where the
submarine is at, and collimate the beam accordingly. Although, if the
submarine could collimate the beam it could communicate it's location (which
it should be able to know a little bit better than the base) to a base via
collimated beam.

Also, you'd probably want at least one more black hole to even attempt a
somewhat accurate 2d/3d fix :) I'd imagine VLF communications are probably
good enough for now.

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joering2
"Instead of traveling 10,000 miles or more via cable, it’s only 8,000 miles in
a direct line through the center of the Earth."

8k vs 10k -- is it such a big difference? I see it more as cost efficient --
"powering up" 10k miles long cable may be more expensive than shooting a
"beam" through the Earth.

~~~
dalke
People are building the Atlantic Fibre Optic Cable connecting Europe to the
US, in part to reduce latency. The obvious question is, is someone willing to
pay a LOT of money for a low-latency, low-bandwidth connection from Sydney to
NYC? The Great Circle minimum time of light in fiber is 74.6ms, while
neutrinos (which travel at almost the speed of light) going through the
Earth's diameter take 42ms.

Thus, you could cut the time in half if you could use neutrinos.

~~~
marvin
Yeah, location arbitrage. There is no way to trade equities faster and on
better information than if you're faster than everyone else. Having this 30ms
advantage will give whomever has it a huge advantage.

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ajuc
Maybe it would require a little less energy, if instead of generating our own
neutrinos, we modulated the neutrinos that go throught the Earth from sun - no
nuclear reactor required, "just" a huge fast moving lead block :)

EDIT: also - what happens, when neutrino passes event horizon? Because maybe
we could modulate neutrinos stream using very small black holes :)

~~~
rlpb
Also, if we could just modulate the entire Sun, we'd have a very effective
cross-galactic communication device.

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meow
It seems like nearly all the extremetech articles end with a big whimper at
the end...

~~~
mrsebastian
Would you rather big, flashy, ignoring-reality hyperbole? :)

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dandrews
Do I have this right? Neutrinos are fermions, carriers of mass, and therefore
have no wave characteristics in the two-slit experiment sense. Seems to me
that "neutrino radio" is a misnomer?

~~~
tocomment
So I was wondering if we ever started "broadcasting" neutrinos (assuming we
had technology to receive them like radios today) would we have a way to
divide up the spectrum or otherwise prevent interference? Anyone know? Anyone
want to guess?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
The precision which neutrino pulses could be detected in time (phase
modulation) would determine the signal-to-noise ratio. The bandwidth of the
channel is dependent upon that.

So very large, very short bursts of neutrinos at controllable times in very
fast succession would be a very high-bandwidth channel. Divide up the spectrum
exactly as we do today with radio.

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joering2
here is a thought: center of the earth is 6,000c hot. There is a heat
resistant aluminium to withhold this temp. Further, I am sure there are
solutions to generate electricity from the heat. I wonder how hard would it be
to dig a hole through the center of the Earth and put the cable in it, hahah
:)

~~~
pavel_lishin
If you're trying to generate electricity by exploiting a difference in two
temperatures, it would probably be more cost effective to just drop a cable
into the ocean.

~~~
joering2
Wouldn't it be easier to generate electricity from extreme heat, rather than
from cold water?

~~~
pavel_lishin
What actually matters is the temperature difference between two points.

But to answer your question, sure, probably - assuming your materials can
withstand the extreme heat, and assuming you can get at it, which as sp332
pointed out here (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3708465>), we can't.

