
Coming Soon: Gut Bacteria That Cure Disease - HillaryBriss
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-30/coming-soon-gut-bacteria-that-actually-cure-your-disease
======
codebeaker
I have a food intolerance based allergy/autoimmune issue which is under a
broad headline of "Non IgE mediated autoimmune disorder".. manifestations are
depression, fatigue, chronic skin issues (on my face :-().

I've been told the only "cure" is to abstain from eating about ~160 staple
foods that contain proteins that my autoimmune system incorrectly recognises
as something to attack, the problem is however you can barely get through a
day without eating one of those staples unless you cook all your own food, and
don't mind eating tuna, rice, chicken and (some) beans all the time.

I have a lot to look forward to from these treatments. I've had very good
experiences with General Biotics' (SFO) product which claims to try and get
the gut bacteria back in balance, I have no affiliation with them other than a
dependence on their product if I want to be sane, happy and healthy in the
short term..

~~~
cpncrunch
Just be careful you haven't been scammed. I did an ALCAT test quite a few
years ago, and they told me I was intolerant to a bunch of different foods.
More research showed that the test is a load of bunk. Most of these "Non IgE
mediated autoimmune disorder" tests are scammy pseudoscience.

From what I can tell, the most likely cause of depression and fatigue is
stress/burnout.

~~~
raelshark
I did an IgG food allergy test recently that I was extremely skeptical about
in advance, but the results were consistent with my own observations over the
past few years - namely that I was having severe reactions to some dairy. The
tests showed exactly that as my issue. So I've eliminated dairy from my diet
and I'm seeing what effect it has.

The general impression I got from my research is that some of these tests can
be useful, but only when used in conjunction with other observations and case
history. I do agree that some can be pretty scammy though - especially in
their claims of the things they can fix. So like the parent poster, I'm really
eager to see how these actual science-backed and FDA-approved solutions do for
people too.

Also, stress and burnout are certainly a big factor in depression and fatigue,
but these autoimmune problems are very real and can also have similar effects.
I personally have a diagnosed autonomic nervous system disorder that
apparently contributes to both the autoimmune and gut issues I deal with, as
well as my severe fatigue and impaired mental state. I don't know that those
areas - the gut, energy, and brain - are directly related on their own (the
doctor I'm working with thinks they are), but I'm happy to try anything that
might help any of them, and see what happens.

~~~
cpncrunch
Just bear in mind that autonomic dysfunction happens in everyone after acute
stress, and it is common in chronic fatigue syndrome [1]. It looks like
autonomic dysfunction is perhaps just a symptom of fatigue (or, it is caused
by the same part of the brain that generates the sensation of fatigue).

I'm not aware of any research showing that dairy intolerance can cause fatigue
and depression. There is some stuff about casein acting like dopamine, but it
seems to be pseudoscience.

We do know that stress definitely causes gut issues (changes in motility,
absorption, and bacteria). Whether there is any causality in the other
direction (apart from when you have an active infection), however, isn't
really clear.

It can be difficult to definitively figure out whether or not you _are_
actually intolerant to something. I thought for a while that I was intolerant
to potatoes, but further research shows that I'm not. (Right now I eat them
regularly and have zero problems). If you're interested in really figuring out
whether dairy is causing you problems, try introducing small amounts of dairy
when you're feeling great and see if anything changes. (Just make sure you're
not lactose intolerant before doing that!)

[1]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26420687](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26420687)

~~~
raelshark
Right, you've described my current plan - to eliminate it entirely for a while
to see what happens, then slowly reintroduce things to see if I get any
reactions. Besides the IgG test some of my own observations were acute
reactions in my mouth from certain cheeses, and things like that - so I'm
certain there's some kind of allergic reaction to... something going on. (The
test I took specifically did show that casein was the problem in my case.
We'll see.)

And agreed that stress can cause those issues with the gut - and for me at a
minimum exacerbates other things already going on - but yeah, I'm seeing and
hearing a lot about how it goes the other way but I'm not seeing the science
or experiencing it yet in my case.

Also - in my situation the autonomic dysfunction has a strong biological
component. I have postural tachycardia and peripheral neuropathy caused by a
genetic collagen issue (Ehlers-Danlos), so I know that there are major
physiological factors going on and contributing to all my various issues. And
then stress - which is aggravated in my case by wildly fluctuating heart rate
- compounds all of that, creating a whole vicious cycle of impairment.
Unraveling this whole web and picking away at parts of it at a time is my
current challenge. But I am pretty confident that while depression contributes
in some ways to my fatigue, it's also majorly impacted by my heart rate and
probably some adrenaline issues common in Ehlers-Danlos.

(I appreciate this discussion and your thoughts, by the way.)

~~~
cpncrunch
>I'm seeing and hearing a lot about how it goes the other way

Well, you need to be careful who you listen to. There are an infinite number
of dubious naturopaths (and many MDs) who buy into dubious theories and spread
them. There are a lot fewer people who will tell you "stress causes burnout,
which causes POTS, ANS dysfunction, depression, chronic fatigue/pain,
digestive problems, etc.", even though this is based on a more correct
understanding of how the body works. The USA seems particularly bad for MDs
believing dubious theories, for a number of reasons.

> acute reactions in my mouth from certain cheeses, and things like that - so
> I'm certain there's some kind of allergic reaction

If it is an allergic reaction, it will show up on an IgE. Bear in mind,
though, that some cheeses are just sharp.

>Also - in my situation the autonomic dysfunction has a strong biological
component. I have postural tachycardia

The autonomic nervous system is biological/physiological, but is modulated by
stress. It doesn't really make sense to separate these systems into
"biological" or "psychological".

Postural tachycardia and depressed parasympathetic nervous system are typical
symptoms of CFS caused by burnout from stress. I had these symptoms myself,
very severely (I had periods where my digestive system didn't move at all, and
where I had atrial fibrillation due to the tacycardia). However I've recovered
completely from it now and have no symptoms.

>caused by a genetic collagen issue (Ehlers-Danlos)

Did you suffer from these symptoms your whole life? If not, I'm not sure how
it fits. Typically CFS comes on suddenly and/or you have relapses and normal
periods...if that's how your illness manifests then I don't see how a genetic
collagen could explain it. Also, allergies are a different issue to a genetic
collagen problem (and neither really explains depression). I have a moderately
severe allergy (hay fever), but zero depression or fatigue from it.

------
rflrob
A microbiome treatment for C. diff (which is what the article mainly focuses
on) seems eminently plausible, and an effective treatment can't come soon
enough. However, for a lot of the other diseases that the title hints at (and
are mentioned in only one paragraph in the article), there's just not that
much reason to be hopeful. We have a pretty good handle on what causes cancer,
and while you can tell a story about gut->immune system->{cancer, liver
disease, OCD}, there's just a lot more places for things to not work.

[1] has a great summary of the current state of research on the microbiome-
health connection: "We still don’t really understand what these microbes are
doing, so we can’t infer what their absence or presence implies."

[1][http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-
plot-...](http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-plot-holes-
in-the-human-microbiome-story/486947/)

------
Remington
Mark my words: There will be two new types of "banks" : youthful post puberty
blood bank of 15-25yrs old and banks for same age group of fecal deposits.
There is nothing like a body at the peak of performance and function. Best
case, you would be encouraged to save your own blood and fecal matter for your
later years. Worse case, you'll have to buy both. Oh my goodness though... you
can actually make $$ from selling your.... but I think it will happen. I
believe this is just the beginning of how/what gut bacteria actually does for
your body. Ever wonder why something like prozac causes constipation when all
it's supposed to do is increase serotonin levels in your brain? Just a brain
fart..thinking out loud.

~~~
louprado
At the moment blood isn't cheap or easy to preserve. Then there is a matter of
supply. Current research involving parabiosis in mice required a significant
age difference and a continuous supply. Meaning you spend 15 - 25 trying to
produce double the amount of blood just so you have what you need when you are
70 to 80. Transgenic xeno blood is a more likely solution if not synthetic
blood or protein filtering.

Regarding self fecal implants, the case where it could be most beneficial is
in post antibiotic treatment. I recall seeing a a before/after graph of gut
flora. Antibiotics had the effect of a nuclear bomb. Even years later, gut
flora was still a fraction of what it had been.

~~~
Remington
Hi louprado. yes, I understand about blood life but I'm thinking the bank
"purchaseable" blood will be a busy cycle so no worry about needing to store
long term. however, to my point about long term storage you're right for now.

And as for the fecal "transplant", I think we are at an infancy in
understanding. Our gut is so central to our very survival that I'm dumbfounded
we haven't discovered this sooner.

I think from food allergies to Ulcerative Colitis to your emotional state to
maybe even cancer, any ailment of your entire body OR mind will have a direct
link to gut bacteria. I'm sure of it.

No doubt that it does sounds absurd to think that a group bacteria can dictate
how well your body AND mind functions, but that's what I'm saying...

------
jcoffland
> “Patients have different preferences,” Hecht observes, but “in general,
> people don’t particularly like enemas.”

This is probably the best argument against a competitor's product that I have
heard.

------
chris_va
From what I understand, getting these treatments through the FDA was rather
tricky. This paves the way for future treatments.

The money quote:

 _The company has built a microbiome library of 14,000 strains of human
bacteria it hopes will help it treat a range of diseases, eventually without
needing feces at all._

------
Remington
Another unique properties accidentally being discovered from FMT aka fecal
implanting is the recipients seems to inherent the donor's properties like
being obese to having affinity to certain types of foods. Soon we may discover
that if we want muscle growth, we simply get FMT from a bodybuilder or if you
want more efficient metabolism you get FMT from an endurance runner.
Additionally, you may be able to over come any food allergies like peanuts by
getting a FMT from someone who isn't allergic.

I think the possibilities of this yet to be understood cure all of gut
bacteria is just beginning.

This could be a GREAT disruptive game in the medical field. Wanna startup? :)

------
kensai
However, please be cautious, there are lot of things that are left to be
desired out there. I recently read about their use in stroke patients for
example. Lots of things about the microbiota is simply wishful thinking.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26945017](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26945017)

------
e12e
'He's not an 'acceptable person' \-- he's like an armed warhead! You wondered
about drug factories -- Sticky Thompson _is_ a drug factory."

"What's that supposed to mean?" Laura said.

"I mean his guts are full of bacteria. Special ones -- little drug factories.
Where do you think he got that nickname -- Sticky? He can eat a carton of
yogurt and it turns him into a killing machine."

"A killing machine?" Laura said. "A _carton_ of _yogurt?_ "

"It's the enzymes. The bugs eat'em. Make him fast -- strong -- feeling no
pain, no doubt at all. They're gonna sic him on ... and wow, I feel sorry for
that little ..."'

\-- Islands in the Net, Bruce Sterling, 1988

------
krzysiek
It's tempting to say that some proof is not there yet, but considering the
amount of studies published every year and inability to read even abstracts of
all of them it's often far fetched. It was shown more than once that certain
gut bacteria cure certain kinds of allergies:
[http://evidenceba.se/answers/17-allergies-can-be-treated-
wit...](http://evidenceba.se/answers/17-allergies-can-be-treated-with-
prebiotics-answer-to-how-can-you-cure-allergy)

------
justinph
It takes far too long to get a fecal transplant for c. diff, especially when
it has a proven success rate of about 92%, compared to 50-80% for the
antibiotics. This is a big deal.

------
louprado
The OP mentions OpenBiome which is the worlds first independent stool bank and
supplies feces for transplants. They have a 3% acceptance rate for donors and
select only the healthiest individuals.

It would interesting to see how their screening process evolves given the
plausibility of all the health affects beyond the GI system of fecal
transplants. For example, it may be that mental health wasn't screened beyond
a cursory exam but later it could be a significant part of screening.

But if they are already reject 97% of donors and the demand is increasing, the
economics encourages lowering the screening bar, not raising it.

------
vermilingua
News like this, and CRISPR, and pending patents on genes, seems eerily similar
to the prelude to Gene Wars...

[http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/gene-
wars/](http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/gene-wars/)

------
ascotan
So you can use yogurt to deliver medicine rather than a pill.

After reading the article this seems to be a piece paid for Seres Therapeutics
in order to raise their stock price.

------
zkhalique
Gut bacteria from thin people can help lose weight?

~~~
milesvp
Not sure how much gut bacteria will help with weight loss, but it does seem to
go the other way.

One of my favorite papers in the field in the last couple years shows a
potential causal relationship between obesity and gut biomes by using
artificial sweetener and a fecal transplant in mice.

Paywalled version in nature:
[http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu...](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13793.html)

Unpaywalled version after googling: [http://www.drperlmutter.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/Artif...](http://www.drperlmutter.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/Artificial-Sweeteners.pdf)

------
slmyers
Vice on HBO recently (June 24/2016) did an interesting segment on this
subject.

------
stillbourne
Am I the only person that remains skeptical about these claims?

------
Aelinsaar
Well... that will cure your C. Diff.

~~~
ksenzee
C. diff. is just the disease first in line. Chronic fatigue syndrome may be
lining up behind it: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-
health/wp/2016/0...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-
health/wp/2016/06/30/new-study-shows-chronic-fatigue-isnt-just-in-your-head-
it-may-have-to-do-with-your-gut/)

~~~
raelshark
> First, the indicators could be used in the future to help diagnose the
> condition, as they were present in 83 percent of the patients with chronic
> fatigue syndrome. Second, it suggests that diet and things like probiotics
> may be a way to help treat the disease by getting the gut microbiome back in
> balance.

This kind of reporting bugs me. They might have found a possible correlation
here, that's all. Yes, that first item is a possibility because the correlated
indicators could be used to detect conditions related to CFS, but the second
item is pure speculation about cause and effect, and is jumping to conclusions
about it pertaining to treatment.

Personal anecdotal insight - I have a genetic condition that affects both my
gastrointestinal system and causes chronic fatigue-like symptoms. I'm treating
both separately but because there's an underlying condition affecting both
independently (probably), it doesn't mean that treating one will improve the
other. It's a longshot possibility, but saying "may be a way to help treat the
disease" is just interpretation and overly-optimistic hype.

The indicators they found do sound really interesting though. If validated it
would be an amazing benefit to patients just to confirm that there's a
biological factor to these conditions.

------
bdg
Not cool... Bloomberg is telling me I am using an additional blocker and
literally have no extensions installed.

~~~
protomyth
We block one or two ad networks on our local network because of spyware
payloads and we get these boxes too from time to time. So, it might be
upstream of you.

------
ojbyrne
I feel that given trials, regulatory approval, and all the other obstacles
facing new drugs (briefly referenced in the article), "Coming Soon" is the
height of hyperbole.

