

 Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job? - 0x00_
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First time posting here. Had to use pastebin because I wrote beyond 2k char limit. Apologies for the annoyance of an extra-step. Please read and respond.<p>Thanks.
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felonyquestions
Hi,

I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer
almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information
once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care
very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee
and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But
I did tell, so... ).

College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go
through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with
no college degree.

Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create
your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your
accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to
the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through
recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can.
But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter.

You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right
way.

* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".

~~~
alt2319
I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer
fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed
for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media,
but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was
able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a
great feeling and something I'm still proud to tell people. Not long after my
probation ended, they offered to hire me full-time at a significant raise.
They never did a background check.

Since then I survived two corporate acquisitions, multiple new bosses, new
CEOs, etc. Every time I sweated it out waiting to see if my background would
come up. I actually heard about conversations with two incoming CEOs about me
and both basically responded "he's paid his debts" or something similar. They
didn't really care as long as I was trouble-free since then and had been
working hard.

I finally got laid off with quite a few others after almost 10 years there. I
have a few different friends that know my background that would love to hire
me for their growing startups, but instead I finally started my own mobile app
company and have grown it to almost paying all of our bills. In the app store,
nobody even needs to knows your name.

You can look at some of my post history here for advice, but in general, you
need to expand your circle of friends as much as possible and let them know
you are looking for work. Volunteer at things and go to meetups and developer
user groups. There will always be people and companies that will refuse to
hire you, but there are a decent percentage that will hire you. You just need
to increase the number of people you know and the number of potential job
openings.

I should also add that I've had almost no issues volunteering for many
different organizations that require background checks. I just disclose my
background and write an explanation. It sucks every time, but I've never been
turned down. I've coached sports at the YMCA, led scouts, taught Sunday school
for kids, etc. Every one of those has built my personal character references
as well.

I also made a point of being very active online with my real name. Now when
someone Googles me, they have to dig through many pages of material to find
any press coverage of my conviction.

Just hang it there and keep chipping away at it. I used to think about my
conviction every single day. Now I can go a week or more without even
remembering it.

~~~
0x00_
:) These are the types of posts I was hoping for when I created this thread.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this -both of you. It's just
been really shitty to think about lately as far as my future is concerned. I
am at a point where I'm beginning to question whether or not the choices I am
making now are worth the investment of time (or not) before it's too late to
change course. your experiences give me a modicum of hope which serves to
reinforce my initial belief that everything I have been doing isn't a complete
waste of time.

There's a paucity of information about these circumstances (compu fraud +
compu pro) available online and most of the information available is presented
from accounts of felons who are not in the same boat as I am.

Really my favorite posts here. Thanks again.

~~~
sr3d
I feel your case and I can't imagine how hard it is. Though being a developer
gives you more opportunities and freedom than you think you have. All you have
to do is to be amazing at what you do. You made the mistake once, you paid you
dues, so life goes on. I agree with the parent post -- you should build a
great online presence to bury the past, to prove that you are a new person.

I once worked with a friend I made online. He's a great designer. I refered
him to another good friend for some work, and this other friend found out the
designer had been on the news for a felony a few years back ( long story
short, he pretty much used his design/photoshop skills and got into trouble
with the laws). His case got cleared afterward, but searching for his name on
Google still returns the articles from the past.

My other friend didn't work with the guy because of this, but in the end, my
designer friend is still happy because he got his life in order. He's a great
guy and he didn't let his past impact him too much. He even helped me when I
needed some money to survive, he was there to send me some work for the badly
needed few hundred bucks.

Good luck. Life is too short to worry too much about the past. Learn new
skills, make new friends, become an awesome developer to create more values
for society. Look at rappers like JayZ or 50Cents for inspirations. They were
put in jails, shots multiple times, and yet they are hugely successful
entrepreneurs now.

If you're good, people can't ignore you for long. Email me your resume, I
always look for good developers to connect.

------
jaysonelliot
While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter, that
doesn't need to be the end of the story.

For myself as an entrepreneur looking for great developers, I don't give a
whit about some dalliances from your youth. In fact, if the exploit was great
enough, it might even be a selling point for your creativity and technical
skill.

Be up front about who you are, and look for startups that will appreciate your
talent and skill, and might even enjoy hearing some of the stories you've
undoubtedly amassed.

Don't go for a job where you have to hide (or worse, lie about) your past.
You'll be looking over your shoulder and stressed out, when you should be
enjoying your work and finding fulfillment.

~~~
taligent

        While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter
    

I've worked for quite a few large corporations i.e Fortune 50 and not a single
one has done a police record check. Unless you are applying for Boeing,
Lockheed Martin, NSA or something similar it frankly is none of their
business.

~~~
ams6110
Anything in the financial sector will get you fingerprinted and at least a
cursory FBI records check.

~~~
jaysonelliot
Quite true. I worked for large digital agencies for much of my career until
now, and while we may or may not do our own background checks (I don't know
since I was not in HR), I've had a number of clients in the financial sector
over the years. If I had been unable to pass a background check with a client,
it would have been detrimental to my position at the agency, to say the least.

~~~
0x00_
Unfortunately true. I've encountered that problem where I am now and have had
to sign so many agreements with legal dept heads from other agencies that I've
lost count. My employer (work in NPO sector) has really assumed some really
huge risks by having my on board. The approach for me being exposed to certain
at-risk data (at my work there are ssn from clients, login credentials to
affiliated networks ran by my state) is routinely addressed by sign NDA as a
group of lawyers threaten to destroy me if anything should go awry.

The director of the agency where I work has been tremendously instrumental in
arguing and supporting me in these instances.

------
georgemcbay
Though it is impossible to quantify, I think as a society we're probably
starting to lose a lot of potentially great second acts from people who made
early mistakes due to the way everything is tracked, monitored, and easily
searchable these days.

I wish I had some good practical advice on this subject, but my only advice
would be things already said here: freelance, or stick to companies small
enough that there isn't much HR bureaucracy in place yet.

FWIW, in my teenage years (I'll be 40 this year) I did quite a lot of
"freelance, unofficial security work" and I know a lot of other people who
did, some of whom are relatively famous (within certain communities anyway)
who did the same and pretty much the only difference between them/me and you
is not getting caught, or being located in a jurisdiction that didn't care
enough to press charges at the time. So good luck, man.

------
throwaway420
* Freelancing & consulting could be beneficial in your situation.

* Applying to smaller companies without HR departments could also work in your favor. They probably won't have any kind of background checks or standardized lists of questions they ask everybody. Don't lie, but you don't have to volunteer info either.

~~~
mpclark
Agree on freelancing and consulting. OP, you've got a (fairly) unique
qualification you can trade on -- not many folks have been through what you
have. That's got to be a valuable asset. I'd encourage you to go out there and
wave it around rather than hope it doesn't get discovered.

------
csense
This is actually a problem with how US society works.

It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a
productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused
employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is
someone supposed to recover their life after that?

The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As
more and more of the population becomes more and more searchable, this sort of
relaxation is inevitable. But social change takes time.

~~~
yep_throwaway
As someone who was convicted of a felony at age 19 and immediately turned his
life around (yet still suffers the consequences), I wish more people felt the
way that you do. Thank you.

------
akkartik
I've been at several startups and never undergone a background check, to my
knowledge. I've never been asked any "Have you ever..?" questions. So this is
less of an issue than you might think. I get the sense companies only start
doing background checks when they grow large enough to become targets for
litigation.

~~~
rocky1138
Or when you're applying at a place without having a good friend that works
there who can vouch for you/friends with the CEO, etc.

Networking gets past almost any trouble, where trouble is defined as the sort
of thing that shouldn't stop you from getting hired but does.

------
rgrieselhuber
Just my opinion but I don't think this would be a deal breaker at many
startups and might even be a little badass.

~~~
kabdib
Indeed; smaller companies are willing to overlook stuff like this if they
think you're good. You'll find a lot less nonsense on small teams.

------
avar
Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you
considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of
jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to
be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud
if you're applying for a computer related job.

Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U.S.. It might be
nice to have a fresh start somewhere else, but I don't know what sort of visa
troubles you'd have with your record.

~~~
auctiontheory
The US generally won't issue passports to convicted felons. (That's the Google
consensus, anyway.)

~~~
sethrin
The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or
renewal for a number of reasons, including if you:

    
    
        Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan
        Are behind on child support payments
        Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request
        Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court
        Were subject to a previous denial or revocation
        Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons
    

More detail [1][2]. Being denied the ability to leave your country,
_especially_ if you have been convicted of a crime, is a violation of your
human rights. It is widely recognized, of course, that drug traffickers have
no rights, and thus the US may freely discriminate.

[1]
[http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...](http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3335.html)
[2]
[http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...](http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3379.html#0-0-0-709)

~~~
largesse
I wonder.. technically, not having a passport doesn't prevent you from leaving
the country. You can get in a boat and take off. Leaving by plane is
difficult, as well as legally entering another country.

Is it actually illegal to reenter the US as a citizen without a US passport? I
would hope that as a US citizen you have a right to entry and visiting a US
Consulate in another country would start the process regardless of whether you
are a felon.

~~~
akgerber
Exiting the US on foot at the Mexican border involves no check of any kind of
documentation-- you just walk through a couple turnstiles, and a Mexican
Marine may search your bag if you look suspicious.

That, of course, makes it easy to be in Tiajuana without a passport. From what
I heard when I lived in San Diego, if you bring a US drivers' license, and
especially if you also bring a US birth certificate, the border agents may
chew you out, but they will let you into the US.

~~~
largesse
Given this, I wonder what the rationale is for denying felon's passports? I
mean, if it doesn't prevent you from leaving the country or entering the
country, both of which are violations of international law.

------
ebbv
After almost 20 years in the industry my considered advice is pursue another
career.

That might not be the answer you want to hear but after thinking about it a
bit that's my honest advice. Here's the reasons:

\- Of all the employers I've had not one of them would have hired you.

\- If somehow you "snuck in" and your past came to light, you would have been
fired anywhere I've worked.

\- Unless I knew you really well personally (as in friends for multiple
years), I wouldn't hire you, based purely on your past. It's nothing personal,
you might be a great, smart person. But it's a matter of the odds; your past
makes you a risk that's not worth taking unless I know you well enough to be
certain that you would never do anything like that again, and there's just no
way you're going to convince me of that through an interview process.

The last one is the real sticking point, because I know what it's like to be a
young kid on BBSes and the internet and wanting to try to break things, etc.
But even with that understanding, I still wouldn't trust you unless I knew you
really well.

And that's why I'd recommend pursuing another career. And you should think
about this carefully because being a convicted felon (and I'm assuming it was
a felony charge) will stop you from being able to do a lot of other careers.
Honestly I'd do some research on careers for people with felony convictions.

~~~
felonyquestions
I have to respectfully disagree. At least the OP has a foot in the door in
this field. Moving on to something else would mean starting at the bottom, yet
having the same obstacles to overcome.

Some jobs are simply closed off. No way around it. Why hire a felon when you
can hire any other equally (based off paper and salary requirements) qualified
candidate? Government restrictions may preclude him as well.

If you are basing your options only on your history, then you have to find a
career where your history doesn't hurt you. This means applying for jobs that
felons apply for. You've done a year in jail, you know the embarassing(to
society) level of education of most inmates. I don't think this is really a
route you would want to consider.

Don't give up. You will have to work hard, sure. Harder than most. Which is a
good quality to have when you find the right position.

~~~
OGC
To add a "soft" argument to this, OP obviously has talent/knowledge (while not
enough to not get caught) in his chosen career field, instead of doing
something completely different where everyone else has a headstart.

------
a_p
One of the unfair things about the U.S justice system is that not all felonies
are created equal. In Virgina, if you are pulled over for driving over 80
miles per hour (even if you are on a steep hill with no one around you or if
everyone else is traveling faster than you) you are charged with reckless
driving, which is can be a felony or a Class 1 misdemeanor — the same category
as Assault & Battery. You will recieve a $3000 dollar fine, and could be
convicted of a felony if you don't hire an expensive lawyer , and/or if the
judge is in a bad mood that day.

~~~
nitrogen
There are sections of I-15 where the speed limit is 80MPH. Does Virginia have
any such high-limit stretches, such that going 1-5 over is a felony, or is it
too densely populated?

~~~
a_p
In the past few years Virginia has passed laws raising the speed limit to 70
mph on some highways. [1] You would have to be traveling at least 11 m.p.h
over the speed limit in order to be convicted of reckless driving.

It might seem that it is easy to avoid going this fast, but there are several
reasons that you might. It is harder to feel a 10 m.p.h gap when you are
traveling at high speeds, especially when the roadway is filled with insane
drivers that are tailgating you and cutting you off because you are driving
too slowly for their taste. Virginia also has some steep hills, which makes it
easy to go to over 80 m.p.h without pressing on the accelerator. Many people
also speed unconsciously when they feel stressed or angry, are listening to
fast music or an exciting radio broadcast.

[1] <http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-870>

~~~
nitrogen
Depending on time of day and tail winds, I've seen dense traffic in my area
that would put hundreds of vehicles above 80. It seems too low a limit for
reckless driving in modern cars that can handle much higher.

------
mildavw
We hired a guy who had recently finished 7 years in the clink. After he got
out he was freelancing in a shared office space. Worked with other devs there
whom we hired or knew. They vouched for him.

He's a great dev, good friend, recently finished a PhD while working full time
for us. We'd have been stupid not to hire him for the mistake he made a decade
ago.

Don't hide your record.

Network and you get work.

------
eli
If you apply to any company small enough to not have a dedicated HR
department, I think there's a very good chance that it literally never comes
up. Arrest record certainly isn't part of my standard interview questions.
(And, in my biased opinion, working at smaller companies is a lot more fun
anyway--especially for someone early in their career)

------
auctiontheory
Now, more than ever, you don't need to work for someone else (as an employee).
If you have the skills, you can do very well as a freelancer/consultant. The
pay can be good, the work can be interesting, and they won't run a background
check on you.

~~~
0x00_
I have tried this approach and it has failed me. The biggest problem with
being independent is landing clients who are in need of the service.

I have also tried shotgun approach via private vulnerability disclosure. At
best it typically results in nothing more than 'thanks' -- but most frequent
is outright ignoring, angry response, bruised egos, threats with law
enforcement, and general unpleasantry. -- so I've learned to avoid doing that.

~~~
rwhitman
Put a way to contact you on your HN profile. You are on the frontpage and will
probably get a few leads. Don't waste the opportunity to score freelance
clients out of your post...

~~~
0x00_
Oh? The front page? Whoo hoo! (is that hard here? it's hard on reddit) I've
gone ahead done that just-in-case. I am not really here looking for active
leads (though I certainly wouldn't throw away an opportunity if it presented
itself as a result of this posting), but some of these responses have been
really uplifting.

I am really here pinging this community for people that have been in or have
dealt with the circumstances of my disposition who would like to take a moment
and give some pointers. So far the response has been better than I had
anticipated.

~~~
rwhitman
Pretty hard yea, especially with an "Ask HN" post

------
tonywebster
I've worked for several startups in the Bay Area, and only one did anything
resembling a background check. Although they wouldn't have found anything, I
think something bad in my past I'm long removed from wouldn't have been a
barrier. Most small company and startup jobs are founded on relationships
rather than forms and policies, which is the way it should be.

If your personality, character, ambition, shared vision, portfolio or code
samples, work history, or profile in the developer / startup community is
well-known, I think your conviction not only wouldn't be insurmountable, I
don't even think it would be a blip on the radar. If it ever was, it might
even make you cool with the right founders/team.

That said, when the company you're working for gets big, you will have already
likely signed something giving them blanket permission to look into you, and
during an investor or acquirer's due diligence, I guess it's possible it could
come up... which would suck if it's right before an equity cliff or something.

Another idea: I've also done 1099 contract work for big health insurance
companies as a contract developer. Salaried employees had multiple background
and credit checks because they were working with HIPAA Protected Health
Information... so was I, but I not only made more money than the salaried
employees, I didn't do an application, interview, background check, etc.

I think 95% of it is your attitude going in. In your head, you're probably
thinking that felony convictions are the only thing on the potential
employer's mind, so you're self-conscious about it. Find the right type of
employer, concentrate on the relationship and the opportunity together, and it
shouldn't be a concern at all. (IANAL, TINLA)

------
Nutella4
One thing you said is "I don't actively engage in or create any new projects
outside of classwork and giving advice to other developers. I am kind-of
stagnant and it is depressing."

Change that. Write some new and useful things, publish the code on GitHub, and
run them on one of the free/cheap hosting services.

That's part of your problem: No recent achievements. Create some!

~~~
0x00_
This is one of my favorite responses. Thanks.

------
guard-of-terra
Robert Morris had a similar background (Computer Fraud) and he still got to be
YC co-founder.

So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful.

~~~
OGC
> founder

is the key word here

> So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful.

that is worthless advice

~~~
guard-of-terra
What's wrong with being founder?

~~~
OGC
Nothing, that was my point. For OP it would make a lot of sense to found a
company / consult / etc instead of working _for_ a company, to get around his
felony.

The part with "worthless advice" was about the whole "oh, also be successful
and happy" thing.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"be successful and happy" is a useful advice because there is an option of
"struggle really hard but you will make it".

But it's not, IT/programming has no downsides, just dive into it and it's
awesome.

------
matt_heimer
Any other career choice you will probably be worse off. At least in the CS
world you might be able to spin it as a positive if you specialize in
security. Freelance work is also an option. Assuming you are trying to get a
degree to be more employable, the places that require a degree are also likely
to avoid hiring you. The degree does show some measure of reform so places
that hire on merit will probably like that you have a degree.

Background checks are really cheap. I've worked at really small companies that
outsource most of HR and payroll to a larger company. Those places always do
the background checks, don't think that smaller places won't do a background
check. If you lie and they ever find out that's an instant firing.

------
justizin
Nobody cares at a job worth doing. Don't apply for IT departments, apply for
mid to late stage startups in the bay area or other intense tech areas.

I don't know anyone who would be worried about giving you the root password to
hundreds of machines because you broke more exciting rules when you were
younger than we did.

Stop telling yourself that you can't have what you want, and get it!

~~~
0x00_
I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for
"interns" they do not have to pay.

I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas
in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to
make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is
something I have been seriously considering.

~~~
felonyquestions
I'm east coast, have extra work (not security unfort), and won't run a
background check on you. Are you trying to stick with security? Or does any
development work suit you?

~~~
0x00_
Depends on language and the type of work. Shoot me an email?

~~~
matt_heimer
Really? You are worried about having to switch majors because you might not be
employable and yet you want to be picky? If it is a language you don't know
then tell them you'll freakin learn it just for the job!

------
frostmatthew
Perhaps you should consider applying for positions where the skills that got
you in trouble would be an asset, i.e. penetration testing, security
research/consulting

~~~
felonyquestions
I found that this field has changed significantly in the past 15 years. I got
my first job through getting caught hacking in high school. But today, there
are so many more applicants who are qualified, and they are coming right out
of college, that the pool is large enough where the government can enforce
restrictions.

------
rietta
To the OP, it would seem reasonable to inquire with an attorney about
petitioning to have the conviction set aside. I am not a lawyer, but it seems
that a restoration of rights via means of an expungement or even a
Presidential pardon would be avenues likely open for you.

~~~
0x00_
Thanks rietta. Unfortunately presidential pardons are difficult to get without
help from a political connection.

Based on the data (<http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm>) in addition
to the cumulative experience of those who have turned their lives around for
decades and still been denied, I made a decision to try that later when I have
a better history to present in my petition.

As you can see, the odds are scary. My chances of getting one without a friend
in government (or part of a lobbying body) are really slim.

------
rdl
I'd look for jobs in academia, non-profits, or startups, where the conviction
itself won't be as much of a bar. I'd personally go with startups -- for most
roles at most startups it won't be an outright disqualification. Most startups
are too stupid/lazy/rushed to do a background check anyway, but if you get
caught later, it's worse than if you disclosed it up front, in many cases
(haha MIT admissions director who lied on her resume...)

The worst would be low-skill jobs involving trust (e.g. bank teller); the
easiest would be high skill jobs involving no trust (game developer or working
on open source software). Sysadmin is in the middle. Security positions
require more trust, but would also tend to be more forgiving of computer
crimes background.

In the long run, for a federal crime, your best bet is a Presidential pardon
(not as hard after you've served time, I think, with a long period of
productive work experience since then); that's one thing that sucks about fed
vs. state crime. If the law itself is challenged later, that could be a route
too.

(IANAL.)

------
polemic
Consider looking for positions at computer security companies. It's an
entirely respectable field with a... "training dilemma". Good pay, in need of
developers, pragmatic about the background of people who end up in the field.
A lot (most? all?) of security professionals start out at least on the grey
side of hacking.

------
Armslong
The purpose of putting someone in jail is REHABILITATION. That's right, all
caps. The moment someone is released from jail, the legal system sees that
person as having a high probability of being rehabilitated (true, not always
the case, but that's the fault of the US legal system), otherwise he/she would
have not been released. Unfortunately nowadays a big percentage of the
population in the US is mentally challenged blood-lusting self-righteous
fanatics. So you self-righteous "rockstar" developers that have been posting
bullcrap in this thread, you can go fork yourselves. As for the OP, you will
have no trouble finding a job. Don't make it public unless explicitly asked,
and say no more than necessary. Good luck!!

------
yep_throwaway
I typed out my (very long) story, then ended up deleting it. Let me offer some
advice, however:

When you fill out applications and are asked "the question", lie. As someone
who has very strong ethics and morals, it's hard for me to say that. It is,
however, absolutely necessary if you wish to work again.

Eventually, however, somebody will probably find out and you need to be
prepared to deal with that.

The first time it happened to me, I was fortunate in that I had a great
working/professional relationship with my superiors a few levels "up the
ladder" (very large company). When they found out, they called me in and
confronted me about it. I told them the absolute truth and also explained why
I lied about it. They sent me home, mulled it over for about a week, then
called me and told me to come back to work. It was never mentioned again.

The next time it happened, I was offered a job at a company after one short
interview. When I filled out the paperwork, I lied, of course. It wasn't very
long before they found out about it (and this was a _MUCH_ smaller company).
The two owners, however, knew that I was friends with the Mayor, who they were
also friends with. They asked the Mayor about whether they should keep me and
his response was something to the effect of "I would, he's a helluva lot
smarter than any of your other guys". (It probably also helped that my boss is
pretty shady anyways).

 __*

With regard to Google search results, take control of that shit. Start a blog,
write awesome shit, post videos on YouTube, participate in mailing
lists/forums, etc. Spread your name everywhere you can so that when you are
Googled, it's your own stuff that comes up. If you Google me, you'll get tired
of clicking "Next Page" long before you find anything negative.

Basically, lie on the paperwork. If you're honest, they're not even going to
give you a chance. If you at least get "in the door", work harder than anyone
else. Volunteer to work on things nobody else wants to and do the absolute
best that you can at everything. Eventually, they _WILL_ find out. Be prepared
for that day.

Good luck, it's not easy.

\-- 15-year convicted felon

------
chestnut-tree
If you are looking for employment with a company, you will face difficulties
(as you describe in your post).

Is self-employment an option for you? The web is one of the most democratic
professions. Produce something people want to use and they (mostly) won't care
about your background. In fact you can see it here on Hacker News. People post
personal or professional projects, few people care about the academic
qualifications or otherwise of the posters.

You seem conscientious and determined, so don't lose those qualities. Whatever
you decide, good luck :-)

------
rdouble
I've found that most smaller companies do not do any sort of background check
on their potential employees.

------
jborden13
I would hire you at my company for the following reason:

\- Your ravenous intellectual curiosity. Sure it got you into trouble, but
there aren't enough people with a hunger to learn and tackle challenges.

I would not hire you if I didn't believe

\- You were truly remorseful \- You wouldn't get bored in a straight gig and
become a liability to the company

I believe that you can use history as a good predictor of future behavior, but
a mistake someone made 10 years ago as a youth should be past the statute of
limitations. Let me know if I can help...

------
smoyer
You've created an eloquent plea for advice on how to answer the question, and
I guess my answer is that you need to be that eloquent when explaining why you
want a particular job.

There is something in your favor ... none of the good jobs (i.e. the ones you
want) are going to be filled by people that only fill out the job application.
My last three jobs included me filling the job application out (for the HR
drones to say it was complete) after the interviews were done and a hiring
agreement was reached. So my advice is to network, push your way into the
minds and hearts of the employers you'd like to work for, then let them hire
you. Make sure the person making the hiring decision hears this story and
assure them it's ancient history.

When you finally get around to filling out the job application, be honest and
when you get to the conviction question, don't check either box. If it's a
paper form, write "see attachment" and affix a copy of the letter you just
posted. For an on-line application, ask to meet with HR instead of filling out
the on-line form. In both cases, let HR know that the hiring manager knows the
details of the story and is unconcerned.

So the bigger question is where do you live (or where would you like to
live?)... you can start building your network on HN today!

------
niggler
Your best bet is to leverage your social circles to get an entry point to your
first job. Once you have that, then the conversation shifts as people will see
that job as vouching for your progress.

"the pursuit of this degree is a waste of time"

At this stage of the game, what you need is someone to lend you personal
credibility, and a degree won't do that for you.

If you do see this, shoot me an email (included in my user page)

------
joshmlewis
Have you tried security related companies?

~~~
rietta
Kevin Mitnick seems to be doing well with <http://mitnicksecurity.com>.
Granted his celebrity hacker status may contribute to that success, but it
goes to show that a Felony conviction is by no means an impenetrable barrier
to creating a consultancy or working for one.

~~~
joshmlewis
Yeah that's what I was getting at.

------
mschuster91
Start your own freelance business and get a bit of reputation by doing low-
level work like web design for local pizzerias, restaurants etc. - no one
gives a ____about convictions when hiring a web designer.

It's how I managed to stay afloat (although, I am in Germany).

~~~
0x00_
I don't really enjoy taking the time to make things look pretty. I'm not very
good at that part of the design process and it takes too long for me (imho) to
produce some aesthetic that will never really be functional outside the scope
of organization.

I have done it when I've needed money though. Just aggravates me.

~~~
mschuster91
Get a theme from Themeforest, customize it a bit and you're done. Quick money
to grab.

------
curiousfiddler
I have another idea. Either you can go on fighting the rejections and slowly
building a brand for yourself when your past will no longer matter (I can't
comment on whether your current situation is indeed that bad), or you could
try graduate school. From what it sounds, you seem to be interested not just
in programming, but the more abstract principles and reasoning required in
designing software systems. Graduate school can help you channelize that
interest and who knows, you might make a name for your self in academia.

You will need some money for that though, but I personally consider that
investment worth the potential experience that you can get at graduate school.
More valuable than buying a fancy car.

------
justanother
I did some dumb things when I was a teenager, and eyebrows get raised when I
answer certain questions truthfully (although in my case, none of it quite
rises to the level of a federal conviction). In the circles in which I have
worked for the past 15 or so years (slinging Ruby, PHP, Node, and so forth),
this wouldn't even come up in an interview, let alone elicit more than a few
chuckles if mentioned. The only thing that matters is that you're mature
enough to be trusted now, and your work will show that. Really, you should
have heard the giggles when I said I was leaving work early one night to sit
the GED (and I was 25 and making six figures). TL;DR let your work speak for
you.

------
acangiano
I think starting your own company is your best option if you have a previous
conviction.

------
eof
The great thing about this industry is that you can build things on your own.
It's tough if you are already having to put in 40+ hours a week just to get
by; but if you have real skills you should be able to turn them into something
profitable.

Perhaps doing penn-testing if you're still into it, or building an income
generating product. It's probably also possible to get hired by a startup or
through a personal connection.. but my general recommendation would be to
create value directly.. since customers aren't going to even know who you are
in most cases if you are selling them SaaS

~~~
0x00_
You have a fabulous username.

Penn-testing today is growing into something it wasn't when I was having fun.
The community consists of mixed talent and a trend is growing as more ease-of-
use [e.g: nessus, metasploit] tools become available to infosec "pros". That
emergent trend (SaaS?) disgusts and repels me because it eliminates one of the
more captivating and rewarding elements of vulnerability hunting (the
delicious, delicious, research _experience_ ). Reverse engineers, devs who are
able create on-the-fly solutions, and vx community notwithstanding.

Also, as said in a previous post: my experiences with independent private
disclosure is most often a futile waste of time - 'thanks' || ignored ||
threatened with LE.

WRT building an income generating product: I don't have many unique ideas or
any marketing experience. I'm currently working with a friend exploring
android os internals and platform development. We're going to throw our
project into that market and see how it pans out.

I generally only create things I need to try out an idea or get something
done. This project strays away from that principle so it will be interesting
to see whether or not the venture is fruitful.

------
rwhitman
Freelance.

Been freelancing for close to 13 years and no one has done a background check
on me ever. I'm not an ex-con, but if I was one I doubt any of my clients
would ever know or care.

------
downandout
You should keep your current job and start a business in tech on the side. If
you grow it, you can quit your lower paying job - you will have created your
own. Maybe try IT consulting or mobile app development. If you go the
development route, obviously no one needs to know or will care who was behind
it. Even as a consultant, few if any clients will ask you about convictions,
and you can simply decline the work from clients that do.

------
latimer
This is going to sound a little cliche, but try not to get discouraged by the
rejections. After graduating from college I applied to over 100 companies and
ended up getting a measly 4 interviews, but one of them did get me a job
offer. It doesn't matter if all of the others reject you, it just takes one
offer to get you a job.

------
joonix
People with convictions have become lawyers. I personally know of one who was
a successful lawyer and then tried his hand at cocaine smuggling. Got caught
in a sting, served time. Lost his license. Came back and went down a hard road
to get licensed again, but he did it.

You can pull it off.

------
orangethirty
I'd say start doing contracting. Given market demands you will get land a
contract quickly. Some contracts end up being fu time jobs without benefits.
So it might play out better for you. You could also do security work. God
knows that there is always work on that market.

------
orf
Become a penetration tester. Do what you loved doing for a job, and without
the legal implications.

------
whiddershins
I would say, take the same mixture of creativity and willful persistence that
led you to crack systems and apply that to getting a job you are happy with.
That combination of character traits will destroy most obstacles in time.

------
walshemj
The questions some one needs to ask is how old was the OP when he was
convicted (where they a minor) and does the USA have an equivalent to the
rehabilitation of offenders act?

------
dimitar
How about emigrating?

Check the conditions in different countries. Here often companies don't do
background checks and to rent an apartment you only need to shake hands with
the owner.

------
sycren
Why not consider forming a startup rather than finding a job?

------
thatthatis
Start your own freelance firm. There's a lot of work for freelancers and
outside of the fortune 500 very little background checking of the contractors.

------
anarchotroll
Is there something that prevents you from starting your own company?

------
whiddershins
I would hire that dude. Why not.

------
michaelochurch
_DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell
of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do._

When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad
(severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline
Question".

You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I
shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at the time, I was naive and
not a great judge of character. Anyway, he asked for advice on the Discipline
Question and I told him to take an "odds and evens" strategy: rank his
choices. For the odd-numbered (1st, 3rd, ...) choices, omit it. For the even-
numbered ones, full disclosure. The idea was that whether the information
would be disclosed (by the Guidance Office) was an unknown but constant
variable: they'd either tell all colleges or none.

If his HS Guidance Office disclosed to all, he'd have a slight chance of
getting the ones where he did disclose (his evens) and no chance of getting
the ones where he omitted (the odds).

If Guidance disclosed to none, he'd have a slight chance of getting the evens
and a pretty good chance (they wouldn't know) of getting the odd-numbered
choices.

His HS took his mistakes off the record, so they didn't disclose. He did well
on his odd-numbered college choices and zeroed the even-numbered ones. If I
recall correctly, he got 3 out of 5 odds and 0 out of 5 evens. Not a lot of
data, but the conclusion was: don't answer the Discipline Question.

There isn't a constant, hidden variable (guidance office) for your case but
it's still unpredictable how easily employers will find out and how your
conviction will be perceived. There are hidden variables you can't easily
measure.

So I think "odds and evens" is the right strategy. Full, honest disclosure
with half. Full omission with half. Collect data. Iterate.

You didn't hear this from me. I don't know the details and I'm not a felon,
but I think it is pretty fucked up how _any_ felony leads to long-term
economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this advice helps.

With governments, full disclosure always. It's unambiguously illegal to lie
about a felony conviction to get a government job. So tell the truth.

Get a lawyer, too. Find someone who's dealt with this and knows the risks. I
don't think my "odds and evens" approach is, to quote Inception, "strictly
speaking, legal".

~~~
osteele
If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from
now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable.

If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not
only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter
the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character
witnesses (teachers, employers).

~~~
michaelochurch
_If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from
now when your employer finds out_

Long-term job security no longer exists. When you take a job, you are always
at risk that it ends. For sure, this risk is real. He might get fired for
hiding that detail. On the other hand, that likely means he wouldn't have
gotten the job in the first place. Which is worse: getting a job for a couple
years, building up savings, and then getting fired... or not getting any jobs
and being long-term unemployed?

There are no easy answers here. We're comparing bads here. There are risks
either way.

 _and then they aren't referenceable._

At 1 month, you just omit it.

At a year or 5 years, there are two cases. One is where the boss likes you but
has (or feels he has) no choice. He probably didn't find you out or make the
decision and he may want to help you out. You can discuss the reference issue
and he'll probably be your ally.

If he's genuinely mad and won't give a good reference, then make him retreat
to name and dates. Have lawyers on it if needed.

In the very-rare case that you need an affirmative good reference (default
name-and-dates won't be enough) and he won't give it, then you have to go to
extortion. That's an uncommon and ugly topic that I don't want to get into,
but at 1-5 years, you have enough important knowledge to make that happen,
unless he _really_ hates you.

~~~
tptacek
You seem to be working under the delusion that the worst thing that can happen
if you lie to your employer is that you might lose your job. No.

~~~
oijaf888
In some high profile cases, people haven't even lost their jobs (e.g.
[http://readwrite.com/2012/05/03/10-executives-who-lied-on-
th...](http://readwrite.com/2012/05/03/10-executives-who-lied-on-their-
resumes-and-2-who-got-away-with-it)) and the damage was limited to their
reputation and bonuses. I'm surprised there weren't more shareholder lawsuits
or similar in the case of CEOs. Obviously if your employer is a government
lying can result in jail time but other than that it seems the worst that
happens is you get fired or lose your bonus. What else have you seen?

~~~
phaus
I can't believe that Warren Cook didn't make the list. His story is far more
outlandish than any of these. He was one of the highest paid employees at the
company my father worked at, the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, ME.

He claimed to have a Master's degree from a prestigious university, that he
was awarded the Navy Cross(1 step below the Medal of Honor) and that he played
for the 1968 U.S. Olympic hockey team. No one fact checked a single
qualification that he listed on his resume, they just hired him.

The sad part is, after they discovered that he was a fraud, they still wanted
him to stick around. From what I hear, he did a pretty good job.

[http://archive.bangordailynews.com/2003/09/30/jackson-lab-
of...](http://archive.bangordailynews.com/2003/09/30/jackson-lab-official-
resigns-warren-cook-sr-admits-to-including-false-listings-on-resume/)

------
largesse
I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a
misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has
grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much
harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.

~~~
mattsfrey
A misdemeanor is an offense that can yield no more than a year in jail and
requires only a conviction by trial. A felony is considered a "high crime" and
is defined as an offense that can yield more than a year of prison time.
Felonies require an indictment (basically a preliminary jury hearing to
determine if there is sufficient evidence to go to trial), and then a
conviction by trial. Felonies generally are much nastier records wise, require
more time before they can be sealed or expunged (depending on state law) if
they can be at all. They exclude you from certain rights such as gun
ownership, voting, holding public office etc automatically. The system is
fairly skewed and crimes are often made felonies in a reactionary context,
i.e. some trivial computer crimes can yield felonies while cracking another
mans skull under the right circumstances may only yield a misdemeanor assault
charge after plea bargaining.

