
A Generation in Japan Is Facing a Lonely Death - rafaelc
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-deaths-the-end.html
======
andygcook
Elder loneliness is something I think about a lot. My grandparents on my
father’s side are both 94. They’re also both hard of hearing. My grandpa had
scarlett fever as a child and went almost deaf. He struggled through school
and eventually got hearing aids in his 20’s. A huge improvement for him and
every time he recounts that story he revels at the wonders of technology. I
like to think my love of tech just runs in my blood. My grandma, on the other
hand, has just lost her hearing in her older age. And she refuses to get
hearing aids because she associates them with Grandpa not listening to her. He
sometimes turns them off to zone her out :D

I live in Boston and they live about an hour away towards Cape Code. I make an
effort to visit about once every two months, but there’s so much stuff they
miss from my life and don’t see because their not on social media. They don’t
know how to use a computer or iPad. We’ve tried with no luck.

One time I sent them photos in the mail of my new apartment, the first one I
moved into with my then girlfriend (and now fiancé) about 5 years ago. I took
the photos on my phone, printed them at CVS, wrote a caption on each one and
mailed them off to my grandparents. They _loved_ it and talked about it for
months. I think I was even their favorite grandkid for a few months (I have
three siblings and we compete with each other).

Fast forward 5 years later to my grandpa’s 94th birthday and I didn’t know
what to get him. They’re house is full of stuff and they don’t need anything.
I had been thinking about the photos I sent them for a few years and how if I
made that easier, I’d probably do it more. Finally, I decided to make it into
a script for our family to text photos to a unique number and once a month
they get printed and shipped to Grandma & Grandpa. Now they’re regularly
getting photos from everyone and they love it. We even compete to see who gets
a photo on the fridge each month.

I told a few friends about the hack and they wanted it, so my older brother
and I built it out into a full fledged product and recently launched NanaGram:
[https://NanaGram.co](https://NanaGram.co)

Check it out if you have Grandparents and want to make their days a bit
happier by feeling more connected to you. Would also love to hear HN’s
thoughts too. Thanks!

Edit: spelling, grammar, and clarity.

And PSA - call your grandparents!

~~~
theklub
So this whole comment was an ad? Great marketing.

~~~
andygcook
To be honest, I read the whole article from the parent, which got my thinking
about my grandparents because this topic's been on my mind. Then I just
started typing and didn't really have a plan of where it'd end up.

We honestly don't really make much money on the whole project because the
margins are razor thing. It's not software and there's a physical product that
needs to be mailed, which costs a lot. We could jack up the price, but that
would make it less affordable for most people.

The real goal is to just do some good in the world and connect more families
with their elders. Yes, will admit there's some gross margin, but it doesn't
even cover server expenses, needed software, etc. Been funding it on my credit
card.

~~~
theklub
I think its a cool idea. I'm surprised there isn't something like that
already.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Of course there are many things like that already:

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-share-digital-photos-
with...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-share-digital-photos-with-gadget-
free-family-members-1444930831)

~~~
aacook
Thanks for sharing. Hadn't seen this yet. There are a ton of products in the
space.

One of the things that makes NanaGram different is the group aspect. Most
photo sharing apps are one-to-one. Usually, it's one person curating the
photos and printing them and in most cases, they're sending the photos to
themselves. For example, Groovebook.

We started as many-to-one with the first account being me and my 3 siblings
curating photos together and sending them to our Grandparents. I think it was
our 10th or so customer who asked us to create a way to send the same set of
photos to multiple loved ones. That's when the service became many-to-many (or
one-to-many if you're an only grandkid) and I started sending a copy of my
Grandparents photos to myself.

My youngest brother is the most interesting (and sometimes elusive) man in the
family and it's always tough getting photos from him. But every month so far,
sure enough, he's reminded and sends in a sweet photo or two.

------
lr4444lr
My father died a couple of years ago. He was a proud union civil servant, and
several dozen (maybe 200) people showed up to the funeral who knew him at
various degrees of separation. I knew only a few of them, but it impressed
upon me as someone who works more with code than directly with people that so
many people so distantly removed from a person would pay such respects. Who
shows up to your last rites says a lot about how you lived your life. He spent
time above and beyond his work duties to give people a better life by his
union activity, the legacy of which lasts today. I have a small-ish family
(we're on good terms) and have had some modest accomplishments at work, but
most of my friends are from college, and live far away. Old work buddies I see
only infrequently, and it'd be hard to imagine how they'd be notified in the
case of my death, and I certainly don't have the time or inclination to become
such a pioneer in FOSS that my passing would be momentous in the industry. It
got me to thinking how we lose a lot not only when we're dedicated to work,
but also only to too small a social circle to have the kind of old age and
passing that we'd ideally envision for ourselves. It's spurred me to volunteer
more time in my local community in various ways in the hopes that I'd become
the kind of person others would find dependable, spread the good word about,
and miss when I'm gone.

------
fallingfrog
I think I tend towards the Aubrey de Grey point of view on this- it's not
necessarily anything anyone is doing wrong here, it's more that these folks
are living in dying bodies that can't do what they want them to do. If they
were suddenly young again- they could go out, make new connections, start
over.

With that said, I do see the point that this is a western/capitalist
phenomenon in the sense that capitalism encourages business relationships at
the expense of personal ones. And it's the personal ones that are more lasting
and meaningful and which you need once you reach retirement age.

~~~
crispyambulance
Folks following the Aubrey de Grey line of thought separate "the person" and
"their body" as though the person exists as some kind of "software" running in
"hardware" that is about to fail. It might not be that simple.

Being suddenly young again would certainly be delightful for a while but
there's a huge psychological burden that comes with living for a long time.
While it may be possible to extend the life of the body, there are related
philosophical considerations that the "live-forever" folks IMHO are flippantly
dismissing. It makes me concerned that in the distant future we could find
ourselves as a society with ever more problems that we're not equipped to deal
with. We'll all likely be dead by then, but it makes for a thought.

~~~
gknoy
I think many people would prefer to be in a body that Doesn't Age/Die Without
Permission, and then figure out how to handle the problems later. I'm not
saying that's a _wise_ choice, and it could certainly have issues for wealth
accumulation, but staving off a certain thing (death) in exchange for nebulous
maybe-bad-things (hypothetical future problems) is something that humans seem
to be notoriously bad about reasoning about.

Hell, I type this, and I fall for it too: I'd much rather be able to live
forever, without fear of Alzheimer's or a failing body. I have no idea how I'd
pay for that, but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't want to Not Die.

------
gourou
Japan's elderly population (25%) is much higher than any other OCDE country
(14.5% for the US). Investment in robot assistants for the elderly hasn't been
particularly fruitful, therefore Japan is slowly turning to immigration to
take care of them.

[https://data.oecd.org/pop/elderly-
population.htm#indicator-c...](https://data.oecd.org/pop/elderly-
population.htm#indicator-chart)

[http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-
bear...](http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bears-to-
foreign-nurses/)

[https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/its-population-
ages-...](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/its-population-ages-japan-
quietly-turns-immigration)

~~~
Parcissons
My aunt worked in geronto-theraphy - and always told us about the russian and
polish care-takers working at the nursing homes caring for elderly SS-Soldiers
in 90s and 20s. What a job, feeding the guy who might have murdered your
grandparents. I hope having immigrants come to help, japan is able to cast off
its racism.

------
somberi
My mother-in-law lives in an active community where old people live. The other
day I had gone to visit her and she was playing bridge with a dozen people. I
thought to myself "There is a 1000 years of history here in this table". It
was a humbling thought.

~~~
ashark
Bridge is freakin' great. It's recently infected my 25-35 age range circle of
friends and now we've almost all caught the bug. It's like some kind of
partners chess, but meaner, in card game form. A little like spades if you're
familiar with that, but makes spades look like a game for babies. No
requirements for multiple or specially prepared decks like some games (hand &
foot, pepper) so it's convenient, too.

Which is to say: see if you can join their game :-)

~~~
lazerpants
Plus, it's Warren Buffett and Bill Gatess favorite card game (they play
together).

------
Callmenorm
I recently read an article about India being afraid of embracing Western
marriage basically for fear that it would lead to the elderly not being cared
for.

It's more complicated than that, but it feels like it should be a real concern
as India westernizes.

~~~
skadamou
I’ve been mulling over a similar idea in my head for a couple of weeks now and
would love to get someone else’s opinion. Without placing any kind of a moral
judgement on the lifestyle choices of others, sometimes I feel like a lot of
the social problems the United States faces are exasperated by the small
nuclear families that seem to predominate in the US. Large multigenerational
families seem better equipped to weather financial insecurity and deal with
members of the family that might struggle with mental health issues, both of
which seem to play a pivotal role in homelessness and food insecurity.
Additionally, there seems to be a general sense of anxiety for young people in
the States and while I don’t have any evidence to back up this hypothesis, I
think that it might be because millennials tend to be less socialized than
older generations. If humans evolved to exist in tight nit tribes, it would
make sense that the relative solitude of modern life would breed a sense of
malaise.

Obviously most of this post is conjecture but I appreciate any thoughts you
might offer on the topic.

------
yodsanklai
I didn't manage to finish this article. What is the point exactly? that it
sucks to live very old and die? What is specific to Japan? Is it worse in
Japan than let say in Germany, China or the US. What could we do to make this
better?

~~~
ghostcluster
I found it really well written. To answer your question though, the birth rate
in Germany is even lower than Japan's, though I think Japan has been low
longer.

~~~
yodsanklai
True, but I'm not sure birthrate is the only or main culprit here. I assume
more and more people live far from their parents. Besides, very old people
have lost their partner, siblings, and possibly some of their children (like
the first person depicted in the article).

------
icc97
So who has made plans for once you're over say 80?

There's the GYST website [0], but that doesn't handle what to do when you're
still alive.

I don't think you can rely on kids, they'll only be there maximum for a couple
of hours per week if you're lucky.

[0]: [https://www.gyst.com/](https://www.gyst.com/)

~~~
Cthulhu_
Hopefully by then self-driving cars are a thing so I can just tour around the
world and err. Actually nvm I don't like that, I hope I'll be able to play and
enjoy video games all day then, call the young ones n00bs and troll them for
not knowing what a n00b is.

------
jamix
What a wonderful story. Life is short, and your loved ones are what ultimately
gives it a meaning.

------
nickthemagicman
Capitalism is brutal. People spend time with people who provide the most value
to their lives. And some people don't provide much value and they die alone.

~~~
golergka
> People spend time with people who provide the most value to their lives.

Wow, people are brutal when they are given free will! Looks like this "free
will" is a brutal, evil thing.

~~~
pjc50
Yes, that's one of the central moral questions which Christian and other
thinkers have wrestled with over the centuries.

~~~
golergka
Thankfully, now we can blame all those evils on "capitalism" instead.

~~~
jessaustin
We blame it for the weather; why not everything else as well?

------
mud_dauber
That was incredibly painful to read.

------
aviso5
Too much work is what kills people

------
timthelion
Here in the Czech Republic there are many discussions about how there is not
enough money for the elderly (almost all of whom lost what little they had
during the transition away from communism due to changes in currency).
Simultaneously, there is a lot of discussion about the lack of spots in pre-
schools. And I also see that many elderly people are quite lonely. I think it
would be a great idea to create combined elderly pre-school centers. You could
attend if you were under the age of 7 or over the age of 70. Morning would be
breakfast time, where the elderly and the very young would eat together. Then
there would be play time, when the elderly could chat and watch as the
children played. Then there could be lunch time. And after lunch, the elderly
and the very young could sing songs. Then there could be some excersize time,
which would mostly teach the kids to sit still and follow directions, while
enticing the elderly to do some stretching. And then the kids would go home.
And the elderly could perhaps sleep up-stairs.

I do not think this would harm the children, and I think that many old people
would be much happier in such a setting.

------
Frogolocalypse
What a fascinating story.

------
wwarner
nytimes gets so much free seo from hn!

------
dominotw
I thinks its do or die time for me to have kids. postponed it too long. I
don't want to die alone, old age is loooong.

Reading this article and watching this random video put me in high key stress
mode.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Zxvr2NjDA&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Zxvr2NjDA&feature=youtu.be&t=1203)

~~~
intended
That’s a terrible reason.

Add : bringing in a fully autonomous individual motivated by the
hope+belief+expectation that they will be there when you grow old?

Small chance, considering that the human trait which they need to be
subscribed to is empathy, self-lessness and family.

A lot of which will be learnt from their own parents. Namely you.

~~~
autokad
having a child is for the parents, not the child. the parents happiness and
goals comes first, not the child. its sad that people have forgotten that. the
parents end up miserable, and guess who else will end up miserable? you
guessed it, the child.

wanting to have a child as to not be lonely in life is terrible? most kids are
had for no reason at all, and its not terrible either. plus, I am pretty sure
for 3 billion people in asia, this is part of the culture.

~~~
yodsanklai
> having a child is for the parents, not the child

Of course it's for the parents. You can't make a child "for the child", since
it doesn't exist (and doesn't care) until you gave life to it.

I don't have kids, and I've been told on several occasions that I was selfish
for not doing so. Isn't it more selfish to have kids (who didn't ask for being
born) for one's own joy?

~~~
Fnoord
> I don't have kids, and I've been told on several occasions that I was
> selfish for not doing so. Isn't it more selfish to have kids (who didn't ask
> for being born) for one's own joy?

There's a lot of positive things you can do for the environment: less or no
(air, car) travel, avoid plastic and downcycling your waste, avoiding meat. As
our population size increases the one best thing you can do for the
environment is _not having kids_ and if you do have kids _stay as close to the
amount of 1_.

~~~
chr1
That's a terrible thing to do for the environment, 3bln people can ruin it
just as easily as 7bln (maybe a little bit slower).

But having less people, especially in rich parts of the world, means they
won't be able to develop technology to control the climate and, travel to
other planets, and do all the other awesome things people do.

Besides whats the point of saving the environment if there are no people to
enjoy it.

~~~
Fnoord
> That's a terrible thing to do for the environment, 3bln people can ruin it
> just as easily as 7bln (maybe a little bit slower).

Sure, and one crazy narcissistic politician can also destroy Earth. That's not
the point; the point is that on average, a child is going to have an average
meaningful impact, and we cannot sustain the projected growth if we keep going
on like we are right now. For example, those rich people you're so
enthusiastic about are eating a lot of cow meat which has a terrible Co2
footprint.

> (maybe a little bit slower).

That's a good thing. If we're slower we'll be able to have more advanced
technology.

Its extremely arrogant to believe that your rich kid is going to make the
difference in the world. Statistically, it _won 't_.

> Besides whats the point of saving the environment if there are no people to
> enjoy it.

If you decide to not procreate there will still be people to live on Earth.

If we destroy Earth for human inhabitation that doesn't equal all life is
extinct.

