

Ask HN: I'm trying to start my career over again. Any good advices? - cmgv

Hi all,<p>I will try to make a long story short. I'm currently working as a software developer in the financial sector of an European Nordic Country for 2 years (I am a foreigner, but still an EU citizen). I have both a bachelor and a master (finished in 2008) in computer science, but the problem is that I use pretty old technologies at work, which have some bad consequences:<p>- It is difficult to see software houses (and even financial institutions) that uses technologies from the 60s/70s;
- I actually don't want to work with those technologies - damn, they even hire people with no IT background for the same job. I don't want to be disrespectful for those persons, but I am not not learning anything technical since the first 6 months on the job... I don't think that is normal for a graduate/junior position... and furthermore, there is a reason why I studied for 5 years computer science and mathematics, and this job is not the reason why!
- The third big issue is that after 2 years, I don't have commercial experience with recent stuff like Java/C/C++/Python etc etc etc.<p>Yes, sure, you can definitely ask "so why did you take the job??". Unfortunately I was not aware of these problems before, I lacked experience and perhaps maturity. They also never mentioned that I would work only with old technologies, so I feel a little deceived as well. Once I was inside I tried to move to other departments where I could use recent stuff, however, I didn't succeed. Now, I am seriously afraid I have "doomed" my career with my decision of taking the job.<p>I am trying to find another job for quite some time. Since this is a small country, during the recession there were not many open positions) and the same happens now, so I am trying to move to London where there are more possibilities (and competition of course), but I am struggling with the following:<p>- As I said, I don't have professional experience in recent stuff - this reduces my search almost to graduate positions (and some junior);
- I have worked for 3 years in an open source project (mainly with Java technologies), but according to the recruiters "that is not commercial experience"!!;
- I have a website where I post some technical stuff that I do during my free time in order to keep active with recent stuff, but again that is not important for a recruiter/company;
- I already have 2 years of experience, so I am not really a graduate and I am a junior of something not really interesting for the majority of the companies;
- I have worked in part-time for a software company during my studies with web technologies, but it was only for 6 months (I needed money to help paying my expenses), so not much experience either from here.<p>So, I finally get down to my questions:<p>- How can I get a/any job using recent stuff?
- Would you hire me (figure of speech) as a graduate, even though I have professional experience in something else (no salary demands of course), or would you prefer a graduate coming from the university?
- Is it really realistic to change area?<p>Thanks in advance for your help.
======
DirtyAndy
A London company I consult with is currently looking for junior staff and
having a nightmare finding anyone. I don't think you would like the work, you
wouldn't learn anything, and they are not the sort of company to take the risk
on you - so I can't help you there. But there is a massive lack of candidates
in London at the moment, so you are probably picking a good time to come.

In terms of finding a position I think you've got two real options. 1. Hope
that there is someone that is willing to spot your potential and train you up.
I think this is a risky strategy because the majority of recruitment goes
through recruitment agencies and/or HR departments - unless your CV says 2
years doing C++ development they aren't even going to look at you for C++
development. Personally I always think skills can be learnt, it is the
candidates fit for the team/environment that is important - sadly a lot of
people like to check boxes.

Your second option is to basically take the hit and try and go in as a grad -
as you suggest. You wont get paid much, but you can be honest on your CV and
say you got stuck in the wrong job, didn't learn new skills etc. If you get
into a good company you can then start building your career. I think you'd be
surprised just how much you have learnt in the past few years, coding is only
a small part of a job, so you'll be miles ahead of other grads in other areas.
A small step backwards can often result in a big step forwards. Obviously some
companies will be hesitant as you are not a recent grad, but really they are
getting more for their money because of your other experience.

Alternatively of course you could try your hand at your own startup (or try
interning at another - depends if you can afford to live in London without a
real income)!

~~~
cmgv
I am glad to hear that it is a good time to move to London.

I have no problems whatsoever to join a company as a graduate. I have an
excellent salary right now but I don't care if I even have to earn half of it.
Money isn't the top priority for me right now, otherwise I would stay where I
am. I was just afraid I would not be considered for such a position, but I
will definitely try.

------
auxbuss
You sound like someone who most folk would welcome on board. Don't worry about
limited experience so early, I know that's easy to say, but it really won't
matter in the near future when you have moved on.

Remember that to recruiters you are the product, not the customer. Adjust your
behaviour and thinking accordingly. There are some great recruitment folk out
there, but there are far more sales-droids. Don't let them define you or your
career.

Nothing is going to change until you change it. So, ...

I'd attend some local tech meet-ups, and start talking to folk. Try to get
involved in anything that vaguely interests you that involves the local
network.

Scan the job adds, determine the companies, then try approaching them
directly. Email might work, but best would be to call them and try to get in
front of the appropriate folk.

But don't worry too much about experience. Folk will see that you are starting
out and set their expectations accordingly. If you've learned one bunch of
tech, chances are that you can learn another. That's what we do throughout our
careers, after all.

~~~
cmgv
Thanks for the support! Well, I understand the business from a recruiters
point of view. However, the majority of the job posts comes from recruitment
companies and it is hard to avoid that. Occasionally I find a job announcement
from a company but it is not easy. Once I apply for the jobs through the
recruitment companies, I have the feeling that my application enters in a
black hole where someone will decide if I should really apply for the job
based on some checklists. I don't have any control or saying on that matter,
which is frustrating...

------
wccrawford
First off, if you aren't moving away from a skill-set into another skill-set,
you aren't 'changing careers'. Get that out of your head.

Second, technology is technology. Yes, it would be nicer to have newer
languages on your resume, but any language is a language and having old
languages on your resume is better than none.

Third, if you give up after only 6 months, it'll look really, really bad on
your resume.

And finally, I have a feeling English isn't your first language. You made
quite a few grammar mistakes. This wouldn't be such a problem if the rest of
your text didn't seem English-native. It makes you sound uneducated, when the
opposite is probably true. If you intend to work in an English-speaking
company, or heavily interact with English speaking techs on the internet,
brush up on your English.

As for the advice...

Keep your job. Use your free time to learn 'newer' languages. Contribute to
open source projects, or start a project of your own. (Contributing is
significantly easier because it has built-in direction: Just look at the bugs
list and start fixing them.)

Don't rely on other people to teach you. This is a really bad lesson that
school teaches and it makes improving your skills a lot harder. That's not to
say you can't learn from others, just that you shouldn't be relying on it.
Teach yourself and take advantage of mentors as you find them.

~~~
Throlkim
Your response seems overly-critical for someone who's simply looking for
advice. I have a few issues:

Quitting a job within a year won't look particularly bad on your resume;
quitting multiple jobs within a year will, however. I left my first job after
3 months and I've never faced a problem because of it.

There's no need to berate him on his English, especially if he's moving to
London - as long as it's clear that English isn't his first language, or that
he's dyslexic, then he won't be judged harshly there.

There's no point sticking with a job you hate if you have the means and
freedom to move on. Being young allows you to change your mind before too much
depends on you having a stable job.

@op: Look up on what's currently in demand in London (Java, probably) and
start learning in your spare time. Check up on a few UK-based recruitment
websites (<http://reed.co.uk> has a good list of programming jobs). It's
totally possible to change your area of expertise; I currently work as a
Ruby/PHP developer and I have a first-class degree in design :)

~~~
DirtyAndy
In my initial response I was actually going to write that judging by his
written English he would have no problems getting a job in London. I've
certainly interviewed and worked with loads of people with far worse English
than he exhibits in his post.

------
LogicX
I would look into startups. Many startups are willing to have a more engaging
conversation with someone, and take into consideration 'non-traditional' work
experience. By demonstrating what skills you do have in this area (and being
willing to work for a little less than the going rate) -- you should be able
to get involved in a high-tech venture.

This would give you resume experience, expose you to the new technologies you
desire, and if you learn and grow with the startup, it would be a great
environment to grow in responsibility quickly as they grow.

~~~
cmgv
I totally agree and I would prefer a job in a startup because of the high
exposure to recent technologies and the focus in the final product. I tried to
search for startups in London, however I didn't find much until now. Do you
know any site (if it exists) where I could search for startup companies in
London?

~~~
sentinel
Don't despair cause there's still a strong search for software developers on
the market. Java is still a good technology to know, since a lot of people are
interested in that. Otherwise, you can just spend a couple of weekends in your
room, learning a new technology and making a fun project out of it.

Also, next time you get a job, try to get it in a small company (max. 50-100
people), because those are the companies that really need to be on top of
their game in order to make a profit, so you'll be learning a lot of new stuff
there.

Here's a couple of websites to get you started on your job hunt:

<http://startuply.com/> \- startups

<http://careers.stackoverflow.com/> \- I actually did a search on london and
quite a few companies popped up

<http://jobs.github.com/positions>

I follow the London craigslist and that one has some open start-up positions
every now and then

And also there is www.monster.com, but the postings there are not usually
startups.

I wish you good luck. If you make it big in a start-up, let us know how you
did it.

~~~
justin-wyckwyre
Definitely, too bad Indeed.com doesn't really cover that territory in force
yet. It's now the number one site in the US, and they have tons of start-up
company positions in their search engine.

-Justin www.wyckwyre.com

------
richardmarr
My tuppence would be to attend events and meet people in person... as once
you've established a credible relationship it's easier to convince a potential
employer to give you a shot.

From their perspective it's about risk. Commercial experience de-risks you as
a potential hire, but so does a relationship, even a new one.

If you make it to London get in touch with me and if I can help I will. My
email is richard dot marr at empora dot com

Edit: another route would be to take part in open source projects with a
strong contingent in London.

~~~
cmgv
Thank you for your help and for your contact information. I will get in touch
when I move to London. I understand what you suggest, however it is hard to
attend events/meeting in London still having a job here. If I cannot find
anything first, I am considering taking the risk of moving without a job and
try to find one onsite. But that is something I really need to give a thought.
On the other hand, joining another open source project with folks from London
would imply perhaps another year before I could move... To be honest, I am not
sure I could maintain my professionalism for such a long time and continue
doing my job.

------
RiderOfGiraffes
This will sound harsh, but on the off-chance that someone reading this would
hire you, why don't you have your contact details in your profile? That shows
something of a lack of initiative.

And that's what will never lose - showing initiative. An employers wants to
know that you have some skills, are smart, don't need constant supervision,
can learn on your own, will ask questions when it's the most effective way to
proceed (overall, in general and in context), and that you'll do what's
necessary to add value and get stuff done.

~~~
cmgv
Well, I have a couple of reasons for not having my contact details here:

\- Due to the nature of this post, I don't want to disclosure the name of the
company I work for because even though I am not happy with my job and with
their attitude towards me, I don't have the right to expose them to this
situation. I respect them and I simply want to move on. If someone wants to
talk with me, it is easy for them to leave a message here (as richardmarr
did).

\- I didn't post this in order to get a job through HN. I have concerns
regarding my career and that was the only reason why I posted this.

