
Ask HN: Do you like working in San Francisco? - PascLeRasc
I&#x27;m considering moving to SF for a job offer and it seems like there&#x27;s a unique work culture there. I&#x27;ve been looking for a place where I can bike to work every day all year, and it seems like SF is perfect for that. Do you like working in San Francisco? What do you wish you knew about the work&#x2F;hiring culture there before you moved?
======
all_usernames
I've known folks that have moved back to SF after years away because they were
looking for the place where makers meet investors. For that, the city is the
place to be.

Also, it's the bees knees for tech meetups and generally being an active
technologist.

But honestly, it's oppressively expensive if you're not making well over
$150K. Forget buying a home here. And renting, you'll just know every day that
you're getting screwed. Even if you can "afford it," it doesn't feel good to
know so many Americans are struggling and meanwhile you're burning money to
live here.

Having lived here myself for over 8 years, I can say that culturally the city
has been decimated. Only the rich can play here now. Students, teachers,
artists, normal people of all kinds are priced out. For me, that means 90% of
the friends I've had over my lifetime cannot afford to live in my city. It's
not a good feeling.

My other experience has been that the city is no longer friendly, most store
clerks and other folks you'll interact with on a daily basis are stressed out
because they are commuting from 60 miles away to work here (serving the rich).
Don't even get me started about the Uber drivers.

Despite all that, it's a beautiful place, and easy to romanticize, and I still
love calling it home.

~~~
kpennell
This is such a reasonable and great response.

------
tompark
I wasn't sure at the time I did it, but in retrospect, moving to SF was the
best health-related decision of my life. (After Ga Tech in Atlanta, I waffled
for years about moving to either SF or Boston, before finally moving to Mtn
View in the early dotcom era. After one yr, I left for a 2 yr stint overseas,
then moved back to SF in 2000.) I hate going to the gym, and Atlanta is
miserably hot for outdoor exercise. As you say, in SF you can cycle or walk
every day all year -- lately I walk an average 5 miles per day. When out of
town friends come visit, they're so used to driving in the suburbs that they
can't walk 6 blocks without complaining (six block isn't even one mile). I
love it when ppl complain about parking; tough parking is your friend, bc it
encourages you to bike or walk.

SF has multiple local farmers markets where you can get fresh seasonal
produce. Fresh vegetables taste different than what you get in a supermarket.
This is one of the key benefits of being in California. (In Atlanta, there are
"International Farmers Markets" where the produce is shipped from Peru/Chile.)

In Atlanta I rented a 2br house by myself, and when I moved to Mtn View I
brought most my stuff with me. Luckily I was able to drop that mentality while
living out of a suitcase in a Sao Paulo hotel suite for two years. When I
moved to SF, I ditched all my crap and shared an apartment. At the time I
worked in Walnut Creek at Maxis/EA and several coworkers told me they wished
they could live in SF but "couldn't afford it". The real issue is that for the
same cost of renting a tiny SF apartment, they could rent a 2BR house in
Pleasant Hill with garage and washer/dryer and they were unwilling to
downgrade their lifestyle. My sister told me for decades she wanted to move
back to a city, but they were trapped on the Florida space coast by that same
mentality. Consider that you might be able to find a living situation where
the master tenant has been living there for a while and has cheaper rent than
market rate.

When living in Sao Paulo, I got some kind of severe respiratory allergy, and
even after it passed, it still affected my sinuses. Moving to SF, I recovered
because the air is fresh here. The smog gets pushed against the hills in
Alameda. The famous fog and ocean air gets sucked across the city due to
inland heating that lifts air, lowers air pressure, causing a breathing
effect.

People are transient here, over the years most the friends I'd made moved
away. Many of them had moved to SF intending to stay only for a few years in
the first place.

People are busy here, and it's difficult to socialize. It's totally unlike
Atlanta where people had time to chat and I had built a huge professional
network. Here my network is relatively small.

The art/music culture may not be what it used to be, but you can still see the
arts in Oakland [1], and open studios every October in SF [2], and it's still
decent compared to other similar sized cities. The art museums here are
certainly better than the ones in Atlanta. [1]
[https://www.oaklandfirstfridays.org](https://www.oaklandfirstfridays.org) [2]
[https://www.artspan.org/visit-sf-open-studios](https://www.artspan.org/visit-
sf-open-studios)

When I'm working on the peninsula, I take my bike on Caltrain. It takes longer
than driving, but I like aspects about it: exercise while commuting, enforced
practice focusing on work during the train ride (instead of wasting that time
reading news), and you see some regulars on the train.

Cool things you can do in SF that you can't do in Atlanta: \- For a few years
I was a volunteer docent at Point Bonita lighthouse in the Marin Headlands
(part of Golden Gate Natl Rec Area), which I thought was cool. But if you want
to meet females, you're better off volunteering at the Marine Mammal Center.
\- For the first 5 yrs in SF, I shared a ski house in Tahoe every winter.
Tahoe is ~3.5-4 hour drive from SF (if no traffic). I'd find a group on
Craigslist, 12 ppl get a Dec-Apr lease. Mid-week skiing is awesome, sometimes
you have whole slopes to yourself. \- I had a roommate who'd get up early a
few times per week and go surfing in Pacifica before work.

You can dial in your cost of living: \- I learned how to cook well, and cook
at home almost every meal now. Most my groceries are from the farmers market
and Costco. Huge savings compared to eating out all the time. \- For a while I
got rid of my car, and was spending about the same on Zipcar as I had spent on
car liability insurance alone. \- Housing is cheaper in Berkeley/Oakland and
Bart isn't bad. Some companies give pre-tax commuter benefits. It's
unfortunate there aren't more tech startups in East Bay.

------
tonystubblebine
I grew up there and also worked there. If you lean into what's good, then it's
great.

What's good?

The outdoors, especially on weekends. It's easy to get to Tahoe, the Sierras,
Yosemite, Mt. Tam. Most people don't fully explore Mt. Tam (only 30-40 mins
away) and it's huge, even with waterfalls.

Burritos. I grew up on La Taqueria. But everyone has their fav.

Best of tech. It is the hub and that brings an energy and a lot of insider
knowledge that's exciting.

Biking is good. I biked to work. It's nice because there isn't much rain.

The bad? Expensive. I thought it felt like a monoculture after being there too
long.

~~~
ericmcer
Traffic will fairly quickly stifle any of the romanticism and beauty
surrounding a quick trip up to Mt. Tam or Tahoe. At some point during the
70mins in traffic it takes me to go the ~10 miles from SF to Mt. Tam I realize
it just isn’t worth it.

~~~
shaftway
Try coming out to the east bay. Mt Diablo has some really nice sightlines (you
can see the moutains around Yosemite in the right conditions). And there's an
area near Las Trampas where you can see Moffet Airfield, San Francisco,
Oakland and Mt. Tam in the same view. It's a bit more of a drive, but less
traffic.

~~~
tonystubblebine
Where is the ideal place to live right now if you also want to work in the
office of a tech company?

I found commuting into SF to be a pain and heard that commuting from the east
bay to SF or from SF to the south bay is also very tough. For awhile, I lived
in Mill Valley (north of the GGB) and commuted in on the Ferry. I loved that
experience on the days that it worked. But I also felt like I was way too tied
to the ferry schedules.

If I could work from home (like I do now), I'd love to live in Sonoma again
(fires aside). It's beautiful and a great place to ride your bike.

~~~
davidjnelson
Depends on your commute tolerance. I think the best commute is a 5 minute walk
from your high rise apartment to your high rise office.

~~~
PascLeRasc
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but this is exactly what I want. I'd
settle for a 15 minute walk, but being able to walk to work would be
incredible - commuting is by far the most stressful part about work for me.

~~~
davidjnelson
Not being sarcastic. Had that setup for a while. Humorously despite the 5
minute commute I would still work from home because it was so quiet I was
absurdly productive.

------
drstewart
If you're young, in tech, and have no attachments. Most of the complaints
people have about SF stem from either living there too long or not being able
to afford it.

Otherwise, it's a really unique and exciting place to be (for at least a few
years). I will say I moved out because of the monoculture and wouldn't move
back at this point, but I enjoyed my time there and am grateful I got to live
there.

------
entee
I've been out here around 12 years, and I agree with the criticisms. However,
I would add that it's an amazing place if you're in the right neighborhood and
can take advantage of the outdoors. As mentioned elsewhere, Mt. Tam is a short
drive away, Marin headlands is even closer. Tahoe, Yosemite are between 3.5
and 5 hours away (usually, though traffic can cause issues).

I bike a lot and it's an amazing place for that. It's 40 min round trip from
my door to the top of twin peaks and panoramic views of the city+bridges, 40
min round trip for a fun single track mountain biking outing up Mt. Sutro. Not
to mention the great routes on the peninsula and up north (Mt. Tam is a
beautiful 50-60 mile round trip).

In terms of cleanliness, I live in the Nopa/Alamo square area and I don't
think it's particularly dirty. Petty theft from cars is an issue though.

Regarding some of the other criticisms, I'm not sure whether things are very
different in other major metro areas in the US. In NYC you'd have the same
criticisms about the finance industry. In DC you'd also have the same issues
with the law/government industry. In LA it's about where you sit in the
entertainment industry. If you work in an area's "industry" I think it's
probably the same.

I've thought of leaving, but if I did I probably would aim for a smaller city
with less of an "industry town" disposition.

------
sthrowawayf
SF and more broadly the bay area has much better job opportunities than where
I'm from on the east coast, but after spending a few months living in the city
from living on the peninsula, I really hate it.

SF is not a real city and the default is to be surrounded by the most extreme
greed and antisocial behavior imaginable on a near constant basis. It's also
more literally disgusting and expensive. I believe that there are probably
ways to help mitigate this, but I have been unable to do so.

It is very easy to make a lot of money here especially if that's your primary
focus. If you're even marginally competent technically and lack a strong sense
of ethics, you will thrive in the area. There are many amazing programmers
here, but there are even more bad programmers making, to be frank obscene
amounts of money for their level of competence and ability to provide value.

It goes beyond being a tech monoculture, that exists but it's secondary. The
thing that everyone here has in common is a greed monoculture. Getting rich at
any cost is the name of the game. I don't think it was always like this, but
I've only been here for 3 or 4 years so I don't really know.

Do I regret moving to the area? I don't think so, I've changed so much while
here. I don't know how I would have changed somewhere nicer. I feel good that
I've decided to leave soon.

------
stuqqq
I hate it very much, the city is dirty and chaotic, feeling unsafe. The
commute was soul crashing, food is expensive. Can’t understand why startups
like it. The South Bay is much quieter, you can focus better.

------
autotune
I moved from SF to NYC after quitting my job in SF with nothing lined up
because of how godawful it was outside of work from a social standpoint (found
something decent with an awesome raise in NYC after about a week do it worked
out. Lol). You do you though, it’ll do wonders for the career at a minimum and
likely leave you starved for any kind of interesting and diverse social
interaction in a few years at which point you will hopefully move on.

~~~
zaphirplane
NYC lost it’s crown as the loneliest city!!

~~~
autotune
I’ve literally had more interesting social interaction on a personal level in
a month out here than 3 years in SF.

~~~
xfitm3
I find the same. The NYC social scene is way more diverse and it’s not hard to
find like minded people. SF seems to be a bit of a monoculture.

------
holografix
I don’t get SF but then again I’m not American. The weather is rubbish, the
rent absolutely insane, the city small, security is atrocious, cleanliness
down the toilet.

It feels like you belong to either of two camps: wealthy tech narcissist or
low paid survivalist.

You can feel the tension in the air, how people look at you, speak to you,
judge your every move, quietly quantifying what you could mean to them.

Live there long enough and you’ll understand you have no intrinsic value as a
human being. Your only value is measured by what role you have at what company
you work for. Get the right combination and everyone is your friend.

~~~
cco
Not going to argue your other points, but curious where you are from that San
Francisco weather is "rubbish".

~~~
cylinder
A lot of people find the year round fog and chill frustrating and would rather
have a proper summer with balmy nights and seasons and such I think

~~~
cco
Sure, San Diego is better, but "rubbish"? It makes me think these people have
never lived in a places like Montana, Nebraska etc. where if you aren't soaked
with sweat and covered in mosquito bites your face is stinging because of the
biting cold.

In locales with bad weather you are comfortable maybe 3-4 months out of the
year, in places with good weather you are comfortable with little
accommodation, e.g. AC, heating, clothing, for most of the year; San Francisco
has demonstrably okay weather, it is boring and not "perfect" but far from
rubbish.

------
sfperson
I really like SF, even though it has many faults. I can live without a car
here and walk/bike to work easily. I can make enough money here that I can
live comfortably and still save over 100/year. The natural beauty in and
around SF is truly stunning. While not as good as a real big city, the food
and culture is acceptable.

Now for the bad. With each passing year the city feels like it loses more and
more of its soul. At times it’s so bougie it hurts. The transit is horrendous
for a city of this size and density. I’ve always felt bad just for being here;
I know I’m part of the problem.

If I were in your shoes, I’d say if you can make enough come here and give it
a try. It’s worth it to live here even if it’s only short term.

~~~
lkrubner
" _and still save over 100 /year._"

That's just it though, as others have said, you have to be making a great deal
of money to still be able to have a good time there.

------
cylinder
For those Americans considering moving to SF or NYC from somewhere else in the
US as an experience, I'd recommend instead trying to live and work somewhere
in Europe. I say this as someone who did five years in NYC. It's just not as
exotic of an experience as you think and the lifestyle sucks without huge
money. I live abroad now but wish I could have tried Europe.

~~~
snicky
It seems grass is always greener on the other side. I'm from Eastern Europe
and work remotely for a Western European company which is very beneficial from
the financial point of view. Schengen Agreement makes it also very convenient
to travel around and stay in different countries from time to time.

I do, however, always feel like the actual place to be for tech experts is
USA. The European market seems too fragmented and too conservative. The VC
money just doesn't seem to be there and most tech companies never grow that
big as on the other side of the pond. I would love to spend some time in US,
be it in SV, NYC or some other tech hub, but I don't really want to go through
all the immigration hassle if I can pick any of the EU countries and just move
there whenever I wish...

------
TheDom
Absolutely, I like it a lot!

I am from Austria and moved here 2.5 years ago. In between I lived in Dublin,
Ireland for 1.5 years (can't recommend unless you like rain).

The main reason I moved to SF and why I also see myself here for the
foreseeable future is the job market. No other place in the world can match
the density of exciting tech companies of the SF Bay Area.

I _LOVE_ my job but if I would not, then there would be tons of other
interesting companies I could work for. If you’re a good engineer, then you
can basically choose which company to work for (assuming you’re good at the
interviewing game). Recruiters reach out all the time, and over time you will
also build up a network of friends at other companies.

All these exciting opportunities attract great talent from all over, and
companies try hard to attract and retain that talent. It’s a lot of fun to
work on a strong team!

The other thing that’s fairly unique to the Bay Area is the high total
compensation for engineers. Based on what I hear and read, I would assume that
the TC for a regular engineer with a few years of experience is at least $300k
on average. AFAIK that’s impossible to find outside of the US, and only in a
few other places inside the US (Seattle, NYC). Also, since the Bay Area is
home to a lot of fast growing companies, the potential financial upside is
huge if you're lucky enough to choose such a company!

The best advice I can give is to choose the company you work for carefully.
Ensure the business has the right trajectory, the hiring bar is high, and the
compensation is fair.

The city itself has been discussed here and elsewhere extensively. I agree
with many of the points but overall I quite enjoy it. I live in a nice
neighborhood (Inner Sunset) and for me the job market far outweighs the
downsides of living here. At the moment I can not imagine moving back to
Europe.

In the end, it depends on what you’re looking for and which set of trade offs
is the right one for you.

------
fucking_tragedy
I'm also in the same boat. I'm considering moving to SF from the east coast.

What's the cost of living like? What is the minimum salary with benefits that
would allow someone to commute to SF (<30 min) to work, but also live a
reasonable lifestyle without roommates?

~~~
kwhat4
It's around the same price per sq-foot as NYC, but you get paid about 30%
less.

------
souprock
How do you like biking up hills? There are some with a 40% grade, and many
with a 25% grade.

Going down is less work, but an opportunity to go flying over the handlebars
or skidding out into an intersection.

You must keep your bike with you at all times, lest it be stolen.

~~~
dang
I get around SF by bike and for the most part there are routes that avoid the
big hills. And I find the bike lanes in the city just wonderful.

Re stolen: it's a problem. Worse than other big cities? Not sure. A month ago
I made the mistake of thinking it would be ok to lock my bike for a few hours
inside the ticketed area of a BART station...no more bike. That was the end of
that assumption. But with a good lock it seems ok in general to leave a bike
outside for short periods. I wouldn't do it with an expensive one though.

------
jonnismash
A couple of things I like about the Bay Area:

It's gorgeous; We get cold winters and hot summers with a nice inbetween for
spring/fall.

I enjoy the drives (out of rush hour) and the many, many things you can get to
easily outside of the city.

Well paid and pay about $1200 for a 3 bedroom with one room mate (Outlier I
know) right across the GGB.

Things I dislike:

The traffic into the city is disgustingly bad.

A lot of elitism going around based on worth/employer/general status.

Too many got-damn people have moved here in the last 10 years.

advice: If you have a really well-paying offer, then jump on it, get an
electric bike for the steep hills, and enjoy your time here.

------
Trias11
I moved from Canada to management position and found myself working from home
most of the time. Or traveling to visit customers.

I don't go to SF often, unless the visit is driven by some sort of event.
Traffic is a mess, parking is a mess.

SF area is expensive. I can afford it but it feels like a big waste of money
as I can work anywhere. So I going to move soon to area with better weather
and less taxes.

If you have friends and local social circle - then it makes things more fun
and you can tolerate things to better degree.

In case of economy crash SF area is the first and worst to suffer.

------
matthewowen
I left for various reasons, but I would definitely take the opportunity to
move back if circumstances changed. It's an amazing place to work in tech in
terms of compensation, growth, and general vitality. The food and drink scene
is good, and the city is generally very safe, relative to other US cities. And
it is surrounded by pretty amazing nature: within a three to four hour drive
you have world class skiing, hiking, camping, climbing, etc.

------
beagle3
How's age discrimination in SF these days? When I was ~30, my job brought me
to SF to have a week or two of meetings at 10-20 different places each more
than once, and I was always among the oldest in the building.

------
forthwall
I really like it, but I was born here. I biked to work every day before until
I moved to a closer office. I enjoy the people and the culture. It's not just
tech, but most of the non-local culture is that.

------
snicky
Could anybody explain why some people say the weather in SF is amazing and
some others that it's rubbish? I've never been to California.

~~~
briansteffens
SF weather is unusually consistent and most days it's on the cooler side but
not super cold, often a bit cloudy/overcast. If you like that (I do), the
weather is great. If not, the weather will be bad almost every day.

