
How Elmo Ruined Sesame Street - bufordsharkley
http://kotaku.com/how-elmo-ruined-sesame-street-1746504585
======
bitwize
I'd rather a million Elmo-centric Sesame Street episodes than even one episode
of Barney or Caillou.

That said, every kid needs some old-school, Elmo-free Sesame Street and Mister
Rogers. (No, "Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood" is not the same; it's insipid and
dumb by comparison.)

Also, back in the day, Square One TV had a police-procedural parody called
Mathnet that was still loads better than network TV's attempt at a
mathematical-cop show for adults (Numb3rs).

It literally couldn't get any better for a kid than PBS in the 70s or 80s.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> Also, back in the day, Square One TV had a police-procedural parody called
> Mathnet

I remember that; it was _awesome_. Drenched in cheesiness, but it served its
goal, and it did manage the "tainment" part of "edutainment".

~~~
McGlockenshire
Odd Squad feels like a spiritual successor of Mathnet.

It's entertaining, educational, and clever enough for parents to watch and not
want to gouge our eyes out.

~~~
sogen
Great show!

Just watched it the other day, very entertaining and makes the viewer think by
themselves.

------
jMyles
I don't understand why folks think this is out-of-place on HN. It seems on
target to me.

It is evidence of an emergent media phenomenon (albeit a slow one) - that a
single character on an iconic platform changed its dynamic enough to cause its
identity to come into question.

Because Sesame Street leveraged novelty and maturity, the emergence of a
cutesy, immature, "it's all about MEEE!" type of character represents a sort
of test case, and in this case, the evidence is that the show changed as the
result.

~~~
Splines
It would have been interesting to explore characters as they age throughout
the show. Given the shows longevity it could have been really interesting to
have a varied set of characters age right along with the viewers.

Children could identify with Elmo for their entire lives. The Elmo of today
would be finishing school and starting a job, and only visiting occasionally.
He would take a very different role than that of 20 years ago.

~~~
knicholes
Aren't these characters those like Maria, Gordon, and Mr. Hooper?

~~~
Splines
For logistical reasons, not really. It's easier to maintain puppets vs trying
to keep the same human actors tied to the show.

~~~
gknoy
The point is, Maria and Gordon __have__ been with the show for decades, and
now their characters have kids. Similarly, some of the kids in earlier years
still are involved as older kids. It's one thing I have really liked about the
show, as it lets them show nuanced relationships (both in terms of jobs and
family).

~~~
Splines
Ah, I see. I'll admit to not seeing the show for the past few years. Good to
see that they're still there!

------
brandonmenc
I LOVED Sesame Street, but have _always_ hated Elmo - for exactly the reasons
detailed in this article - and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Fortunately, I'm old enough to have watched Sesame Street before Elmo took
over.

As an aside, I wish someone would revive The Electric Company.

~~~
reuven
They tried. The new Electric Company lasted 1.5 seasons or so. It was totally
new and different... and not nearly as addictive, funny, or clever as the
original one.

~~~
brandonmenc
My mother claims I sat in front of the TV utterly hypnotized by the "phonetics
shadows," and that it's how I learned to read.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQseUDQB2o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQseUDQB2o)

Is there anything like this available for kids now? It's so stripped down and
catchy that, even as an adult, I could watch these all day long.

~~~
reuven
I bought the DVDs when they came out, about 10 years ago. Look for "The Best
of the Electric Company." It was, and remains, totally brilliant. My two elder
children loved it, and couldn't get enough. My son (who is now 10) never got
into it, but I'll somehow forgive him.

Really and truly, the Electric Company was a very, very clever show that mixed
humor and education in a unique way.

The company that produced these DVDs never imagined that children would be
watching; they imagined it was only nostalgic adults. So the "best of" DVDs,
when first produced, included condom ads! After enough parents protested that
this wasn't the most appropriate kind of advertising to put on a children's
DVD, the company issued new ones with more child-friendly advertising.

~~~
firebones
I give a lot of credit to "The Electric Company" as well. Because the episodes
were repeated so much, some of these memes still stick with me today,
including "You Drive Me Up the Wall" which packed humor, double-meaning of
phrases, idiom, and reading into one little skit:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eNoTF_hNY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eNoTF_hNY)

------
BinaryIdiot
As a father I agree Elmo is essentially the never ending toddler who does too
much on his own on Sesame street. He really does need someone a little more
mature than him to help teach him lessons.

But having said that I've watched far too much Sesame street and yes Elmo
usually gets more time than the rest but not always. The author paints a
picture like Elmo always gets most of the time but the truth is he isn't
played THAT much more than the others. Even in the hurricane episode that is
cited in the article Big Bird was on screen longer than twice the time of any
other monster.

So yes he needs to be downplayed a little bit but the article is over the top
as well. In fact watching many of the episodes in the past 5 years and you'd
think Abby was gunning for Elmo's spot; she gets quite a lot of screen time
especially with fairy school.

------
djcjr
To my mind, Jim Henson's death and the resulting loss of his voice, puppet
characters, and leadership, dealt a blow to Sesame Street from which it has
not really recovered.

~~~
dang
It took genius to blend the qualities Henson did, and the resulting ability
not to get too stuck in sentimentality was a comedic superpower.

The OP points out how some of the older Sesame Street monsters have an edgy
quality to balance their cuddliness. That was distinctive of Henson. His
regional TV commercials from the 1950s already showed something similar:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3929121](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3929121).

------
DigitalSea
I completely agree. I can not stand Elmo as a character. He lacks depth and is
really annoying. However, observing my 1.5 year old niece when Elmo comes on,
you can see why he is the popular Muppet. Kids love his annoying voice and
silliness which is why Elmo will continue to be at the forefront of Sesame
Street.

I saw the episode where they talked about Mr. Hooper's death. It was the
saddest thing I had seen in a very long time. Very emotional and probably the
most honest episode ever made.

------
qq66
The tone is of course hyperbolic as it must be these days, but I do agree that
Sesame Street used to have a very interesting adult/child dynamic, which may
be gone (haven't watched the show in years). I always loved the interactions
between Grover and Mr. Johnson... even as I see myself becoming more like Mr.
Johnson every day:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQPLY9uxiss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQPLY9uxiss)

------
silveira
I recently watched "I Am Big Bird: The Caroll Spinney Story" documentary and I
had this impression that the show shifted towards a younger audience with
Elmo. I wonder that this was probably related to a bigger audience on this age
range.

~~~
stevewilhelm
I understood the documentary to say that Sesame Street noticed that their
audience was getting younger. In response to this age shift they introduced
Elmo; a character that resonated to this new growing demographic.

~~~
DrScump
Could they have cause and effect backwards? Perhaps the shift toward
insipidness simply alienated older viewers at that time?

------
norea-armozel
Hah, I always preferred Grover. Then again Elmo wasn't a thing in 1983.

~~~
jessaustin
For me, Oscar was always the best. Not only did he get to live in a garbage
can, but he also disagreed with everyone all the time. My hero.

~~~
norea-armozel
I liked Oscar too, but I'm weird too.

------
KirinDave
The number of people who are quick to jump unquestioningly on this and say,
"It was better before" are... well it bums me out.

Sesame Street's role in child development has changed radically as the general
opinion on how TV should interact with kids has changed. These kids shows have
been pushed down the age bracket, appealing to younger markets where demand is
a lot greater for the content. Older kids shows? They exist in the spaces
between cartoon network hot properties, and do a good job of confronting the
complex issues kids will face from 4-12. The same is true of The Mr.
Rogers->Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. They're tuned for totally different age
ranges and _requirements_.

I dunno how many of you are parents. I have a 15 month old daughter. A
constant chime of the following information is reiterated by child care
consulting, doctors, and developmental evaluators:

\- Sensory experiences are more important than anything right now. \-
Emotional stability is more important than anything. \- Disregard the advice
about "no screen time." Screens shouldn't be a substitute for parenting, but
kids can learn to use tablets startlingly early in life and interactive
education is provably better than passive education. In some specific
subjects, interactive solo play is superior even to parentally guided play.

Let's also not forget: This article is just false. The idea that no one ever
corrects Elmo? Totally wrong. Elmo gets a lot of screen time, but over the
last year we've seen a huge amount of investment in a lot of other characters.
Cookie Monster, Abby's complexity, and most importantly a huge increase in the
time _humans_ spend on sesame street talking.

The idea that Seasme Street doesn't touch on tricky subjects is false. Just
last week the PBS Kids app rotated the episode on "Minne Myna". It's a two-
sided story. On the one hand, Big Bird makes a case to bird court that someone
else can't steal his nest just because he left it. "Finders Keepers is a bad
rule."

But it's _also_ trying to talk to kids and say it is okay to be sad and that
they SHOULD be sad if they lose their homes. The episode is delicately
touching on the subject of home eviction. Someone who has never been evicted
might not even notice, but anyone who has lost a home will immediately realize
what Big Bird's singing about. Big Bird gets a happy ending, but the episode
leaves reminding kids that many other birds didn't get their nests back and
that it's okay to be sad.

I see so much of these kinds of articles. All I can do is despair as my
generation begins to make the exact same mistake as our outrageous parents who
had very similar things to say about childhood programming which we all wax
nostalgically on now.

~~~
ideonexus
> "I see so much of these kinds of articles. All I can do is despair as my
> generation begins to make the exact same mistake as our outrageous parents
> who had very similar things to say about childhood programming which we all
> wax nostalgically on now."

Thank you so much for this insightful post. As the parent of a two and four-
year-old, reading this article all I could think was, "But Sesame Street is
not for you!!! Who cares if your adult-self doesn't like Elmo?"

People don't seem to understand that Sesame Street was established on and
heavily influenced by hard scientific research [1], and that research has
found letting your children watch the show gives them a head-start on learning
before they enter public school. When the show changes, science informs those
changes.

And I can see it with my boys. Elmo youtube videos taught my two-year-old the
alphabet, his shapes, and counting to 10, which blows his daycare teachers
away. My four-year-old got the same jump on these concepts from Elmo. Funny
enough, he seems to have outgrown the character and has moved onto Team
Umizoomi [2] where he enjoys problem-based learning for math and patterns.
It's best to watch these shows with the kids, engage the learning with them as
they watch, and also make references to the characters and events to reinforce
the learning away from the television.

I also find all the "get off my lawn" comments in this thread and in these
kinds of articles disheartening. I agree that it seems like my generation is
just adopting the cycle of knee-jerk cynicism to change to which our elders
subjected us.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesame_Street_research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesame_Street_research)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Umizoomi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Umizoomi)

~~~
anigbrowl
_And I can see it with my boys. Elmo youtube videos taught my two-year-old the
alphabet, his shapes, and counting to 10, which blows his daycare teachers
away._

Sesame street (and the Electric Company) helped me with my early reading and
numeric ability, long before Elmo showed up. You can watch classic episodes on
Netflix and see that there was actually more of that stuff in the early years
than there is today, with more elaborate animations and songs that made it
easier for kids to remember.

~~~
ideonexus
Could you provide me a link to the research that demonstrates the shows you
watched before Elmo resulted in better learning outcomes for children than the
shows with Elmo?

------
poofyleek
Worse are Mr. Noodle and his brother.

~~~
dvere
Come on, anybody that has Christine Chenoweth as a sister can't be all bad...

------
shmerl
Is that why Elmo is an evil Sesame Street Fighter character?

[http://flavourmachine.com/sesamefighter/](http://flavourmachine.com/sesamefighter/)

(Inspired by [http://www.deviantart.com/art/Sesame-Street-Fight-Elmo-
Bison...](http://www.deviantart.com/art/Sesame-Street-Fight-Elmo-
Bison-148721564)).

------
anon4
The most shocking thing to me from this article was that Big Bird is actually
male. I always saw her as an older sister character. It could have something
to do with the fact that "bird" is feminine in my language. That would also
explain why the local translation used the gender-neutral diminutive form of
"bird"...

------
mathiasben
Seems there would be a massive market for a Classic PBS Kids channel.

------
amyjess
I'm just old enough to have watched Sesame Street when Grover was a big deal
and Elmo had yet to become huge (late '80s), and he was the main character I
glommmed onto then. I still don't get Elmo's appeal.

------
nzealand
Adults are no longer the target audience for these shows.

Malcolm Gladwell touched on this in the Tipping Point.

Sesame Street pioneered the use of TV to entertain and educate toddlers. But a
lot of the original content was beyond the comprehension of younger children.

While Elmo is annoying to us, he is perfect at keeping the attention of a
young child, and while he has their attention he can teach them things.

~~~
mfoy_
>while he has their attention he can teach them things.

The author's point was that he isn't, though-- at least not good things. He's
self-centered and immature; he avoids things that are "hard" and acts
selfishly.

------
doug1001
my vote for the gold standard of kid's educational tv is "Schoolhouse Rock"
Pretty much an entire primary school education just from that handful of
shorts--civics ("I'm just a bill") grammar ("conjunction junction, what's your
function") and math ("my hero, zero") to this day 100% of my understanding of
the US legislative process is from "I'm just a bill"\--eg, "yes i am only a
bill and i'm sitting her on capital hill" i heard on NPR once that the guy who
conceived and wrote those, was/is a jazz musician, and when he would perform
in nightclubs, people in the audience would recognize this voice request songs
from SchoolHouse Rock.

------
austenallred
There is no substance on earth more addictive than Elmo is to a two year old.

In most television shows and movies what people are looking for is somebody
that represents them - call it an "avatar" if you must. When kids watch Sesame
Street they relate directly to Elmo.

He's younger, smaller, has an insatiable curiosity, and is in a permanent mode
of questioning and discovery. He even has similar mannerisms to children - he
laughs a lot, has lots of energy, and is frequently confused as to what's
happening around him.

The reason the author doesn't like Elmo is because Elmo acts like a two year
old. The reason two year olds love Elmo is because Elmo acts like a two year
old.

Sesame Street was created for two-year-olds, not bitter Internet pundits.

~~~
btilly
_Sesame Street was created for two-year-olds, not bitter Internet pundits._

It may have been created for two-year-olds, but do you know what it was
created TO DO for two-year-olds?

The article has it exactly right. The purpose of Sesame Street was never
entertainment. Their purpose was to use TV to help preschool aged kids get a
head start on academics and emotional development, while pushing a specific
set of liberal social values around inclusiveness on them. It is a matter of
historical record that this was the goal.

In order to accomplish this goal, Sesame Street deliberately had to have
enough entertainment value to keep kids watching. And pulled in enough pop
culture people to give babysitters a reason to turn it on. (See
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G95MA6RxJTs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G95MA6RxJTs)
for an example of how they combined those two.) But those are means to an end,
not the end. And it is very important to always push kids to do a little more
than they think they can do.

The current dominance and role of Elmo reflects how Sesame Street has lost
sight of their initial vision and confused the means (entertainment) for the
end.

------
desireco42
It is very hard to put yourself in position of very young child and issue
judgement on what toddlers would like. I couldn't stand Teletubies, I still
can't. But young kids are fascinated and my late grandma loved them too. Who
am I to judge.

~~~
mcphage
> issue judgement on what toddlers would like

The issue here isn't really what toddlers like or don't like. The issue is, if
you're going to sit your kid in front of a screen to watch something, what are
they getting out of it? A 3- or 4-year old seeing 6-year old behavior in Big
Bird sees a role model in how to behave. Seeing 3-year-old behavior in Elmo
reinforces how they're already behaving.

~~~
roel_v
2 or 3 year olds _cannot learn empathy_ , their brains just aren't wired for
it. It's like telling a wheelchair user 'here let me teach you how to run 100m
in sub 10 secs'. Which is why I'm so dumbfounded by the comments agreeing with
the article - it's based on the notion from 50 years ago that children are
just adults who haven't been tought yet how to be adults. This is clear and
plain nonsense, children and youth until ~ 25 years old (I realize I'm now
antagonizing much of those reading this...) just don't have fully developed
brains yet. Especially at lower ages it doesn't make sense to try to teach
them things that they are physically incapable of learning.

~~~
mcphage
They can't learn empathy until their brains develop, definitely. However, they
can model the behavior they see around them—and by "can" I mean "do,
constantly, whether you want them to or not". So showing them a positive role
model for them to learn behavior from is still beneficial, and they'll pick up
on the other things—like empathy—as their brains develop.

------
ramanamit1234
My kids, 7 & 2, have never seen Sesame Street. I used to watch it in my youth.
My kids jump to Netflix or Mickey Mouse clubhouse on YouTube. May Elmo did
ruin SS?

------
marshray
So Elmo is basically the Jar Jar Binks of Sesame Street.

~~~
forgettableuser
Actually, the article made me think Elmo is Nermal, The World's Cutest
Kittycat from Garfield.

We just need Oscar the Grouch to start mailing Elmo to Abu Dhabi all the time.
Problem solved.

~~~
marshray
Elmo in Caliphate-Land.

------
gefh
I love the internet. I love that someone wrote a whole article on something so
arbitrary. I'm not sure why it's on HN though.

~~~
dang
Fascinating stories with no particular rationale are not just on topic for HN,
they're primo material.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
gefh
Fair enough - it was a good read.

------
rjbwork
A great article, but why is this on Kotaku? I thought they were a video
game/geek culture publication. It seems to have far more depth and thought put
into it than most of their tripe as well.

~~~
ubernostrum
Well, they recently had a bit of a scandal when it came out that some large
game studios are blacklisting them over repeated leaks of internal
information. So maybe they need to broaden a bit now they no longer have
access to as much gaming stuff.

------
Shorel
Are you telling me Cosmos was not a kids show ?

~~~
McGlockenshire
It entirely depends on the kid.

Nova did a series on the formation and geological history of North America,
and the local station happened to air it following their Sunday morning
children's programming. My six year old sat through each episode entirely
enraptured with it, and he asked all sorts of questions after. My younger kid,
not so much.

I know Cosmos is going to be above his ability to completely understand, but I
think it'd probably keep his attention and prompt questions.

~~~
hyperpape
Anecdata: my not-quite 6 year old daughter has watched Cosmos repeatedly in
the past few months. She likes it a lot.

------
leoc
TL;DR: Elmo is the Wolverine of Sesame Street.

------
webkike
As with literally every article written by kotaku, oh my god I just don't care

~~~
DiabloD3
I agree with this. Kotaku articles have no place on the front page of HN,
especially ones like this that don't understand the larger context of the
program, and its inability to thrive in the "junk food media" environment that
is being force fed to kids.

If I ever have kids, I'm going to continue to not have TV in my home. They can
read all the books I read when I was a kid, or watch select TV shows from the
past 20+ years that aren't just constant pointless bullshit.

~~~
asddubs
There's many great modern shows, just like there's a lot of crap from the
past. Try watching some steven universe, for example.

~~~
gknoy
Netflix has amazing stuff for kids as well: Bill Nye, Magic Schoolbus, to name
a few.

------
Animats
_" I remember a storyline years ago that perfectly encapsulated this: Episode
3280, Season 26."_

Too much detail.

------
guelo
Republicans killed funding for public TV so now the shows have to earn their
own money which means the primary concern is no longer teaching but how to
make money via toys and DVDs, etc. which leads to finding the most addictive
character and making him a star. Because capitalism ruins everything.

~~~
MichaelMoser123
Because capitalism you get to play with nice computers - socialism was never
good at that. You also get to buy things that customers want, not stuff that
some detached bureaucrat thinks that you should buy.

However you do have a point - they do have to sell toys and a ten year old
will probably not buy a big bird doll. This requirement causes them to invent
more addictive characters, so as to spin off dolls that younger kids will wish
to own. On the other side they may have tried to push Ernie and Bert dolls to
teenagers, this might have created a more diverse offering.

Another point is that the principle that work with consumer markets are not
very good when applied to education: the target audience here still has a
limited ability to evaluate your effort as an educator...

~~~
MichaelMoser123
[http://www.sesameworkshop.org/about-
us/financials/](http://www.sesameworkshop.org/about-us/financials/)

here it says that 31% of the funding comes from government/corporate support;

Also they don't seem to be making that much money; them bloody capitalists are
rather poor themselves. I guess Dora is doing better in terms of finances -
they must have more limited expenses.

[http://www.sesameworkshop.org/wp_install/wp-
content/uploads/...](http://www.sesameworkshop.org/wp_install/wp-
content/uploads/2015/10/FY-2015-Financial-Statements.pdf)

------
n0us
Just waiting for the follow up clickbait

"Sorry Kotaku, acutally ___insert controversial person___ ruined sesame
street"

------
vinceguidry
I liked the treatment of Sesame Street as a microcosm of celebrity. Of course
the show would find the very first popular chord it hits and then jam on it
with all the subtlety of Nickelback. There's way too much money in that,
emotional maturity is bound to take a back seat.

I can understand the lamentations, but really, if you were expecting your kids
to learn the hard lessons of life from television programs, you deserve all
the tantrums you get.

~~~
krapp
I would expect children to learn to count and spell and, occasionally, how to
deal with death, from Sesame Street. Unfortunately, it seems the show has
become more about pushing merchandise to parents and pandering to celebrity
than education, and this is worth complaining about.

------
grogenaut
Summary: These things I loved as a kid are now slightly different and therefor
RUINED. In an unrelated note, get off of my lawn you damned kids.

Seriously, more hard hitting journalism by the folks that brought us "Snaktaku
reviews the Big Mac" and "We really pissed off some game devs and had to buy
our own copy of games" authors.

~~~
delecti
I admit to having never watched much Sesame Street, but I think that's a
pretty inaccurate characterization of the article. There are several
convincing examples of the point the author's trying to make.

~~~
grogenaut
Sure, except Sesame Street and it's impact is incredibly well researched and
this article is based on one guy's book and Kotaku trying to generate page
views. I'd rather read the studies.

~~~
dang
It's a fine article, and no doubt the studies are fine studies. There's lots
of room for both.

------
hendekagon
I never liked Big Bird. What a twat.

------
thedavinci2000
Horrible Rant: As a kid of the eighties You could say that I was their target
audience and yet the show never appealed to me. It always gave me the creeps.
Somebody else here mentioned Mr. Rogers and that one is even creepier. I felt
like it was trying to lure me to his neighborhood to do bad things to me.

Sorry but to this day I still cannot see the appeal of these shows. Why did
you like it?

