
Whiskey Can’t Hide Its Age - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/issue/36/aging/whiskey-cant-hide-its-age-either-rp
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kbenson
I believe there was a story a few years back about someone who developed a new
technique for aging whiskey which was supposed to be much faster but the
chemically identical (or very similar) to longer barrel aging. I don't think
it's as simple as the small barrel aging they mention, because it was more
recent and was getting a lot of attention.

Edit: Found it[1], although it's rum, not whiskey. Thanks to etherealmachine
for pointing me in the right direction.

1:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9369387](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9369387)

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mathattack
The stakes are too high for this problem to be unsolved. People can accelerate
the aging of wine as a chemical process. With billions on the line, people
will figure it out for Whiskey too.

This will dramatically bring down the cost of whiskey too. First comes from
simply increasing the supply. More importantly, most of the cost of whiskey is
time. If I spend $5 today making a bottle of 18 year whiskey, and I have a
cost of capital of 6% higher than inflation, then I'll need to sell it at
$14.27 (5*1.06^18) inflation adjusted just to break even.

~~~
crdb
My impression has always been that drinking aged whisky was more about
signalling (both financial status and knowledge and taste), including in the
largest markets (France, etc.). Same reason people still wear suits and
Goodyear-welted leather shoes for work. So there'll always be a large demand
for aged stuff. If you just want to get drunk, vodka is better for hangovers
and a lot cheaper. For example, a liquor trader here told me Indonesia is
really into Chivas 18 year old, which is by far his largest export there.

That being said, economics have made it happen already: there have been no age
statements on the "basic" offering from all mass market Japanese single malts
(Yamazaki, Yoichi, Taketsuru...) for a few years now because the vastly
increased demand effectively emptied the stock of the 10-12 year old stuff
that was previously the default. I also get the feeling that a lot of Scottish
houses are cutting their product with stuff that meets the age requirement for
labelling but is not as good as what their products were made of 10-15 years
ago.

In terms of taste, I think the "fast aged" stuff is a different product.
Younger whiskies have a very different flavour profile (not necessarily
inferior - try a Port Charlotte PC5-7). Can it become a new market segment,
certainly - in fact it already has (e.g. Laphroaig Quarter Cask mentioned
elsewhere in this thread). Replace, I'm less sure.

~~~
peterwwillis
I'm pretty sure people still buy those things because they see the value in
investing money in quality products, not to signal something. Signaling is a
consequence here, not a purpose.

Different whisky products have different markets. There are special limited
edition releases of Chivas that are only sold in Asia, for example. Same for
Johnny Walker, and many other popular brands. India is crazy for Scotch, but
most of its whisky is made of 90% blended neutral spirits and 10% malt whisky.
It was only in the past 10 years that they produced their own, completely
Indian, single malt whiskys, which are pretty good by the way.

All sorts of whisky brands have been switching to No Age Specified labels for
years. Eventually almost all of them will be, partly to avoid shortages, and
partly to help consumers try more products from the same brand, and to fight
the idea that older = better. And "as good" scotch is relative; they have
always blended spirits to get the right flavor profile regardless of age
statement, and they continue to do so.

~~~
crdb
> I'm pretty sure people still buy those things because they see the value in
> investing money in quality products, not to signal something. Signaling is a
> consequence here, not a purpose.

Rather than write up my position on this, I will Defer To Authority and post
this excellent Quora answer on signalling and its relationship with quality:
[https://www.quora.com/Why-would-anyone-buy-a-Rolex-
watch/ans...](https://www.quora.com/Why-would-anyone-buy-a-Rolex-
watch/answer/Suzanne-Sadedin) (although I disagree on her premise that there
is no objective difference in quality, especially when it comes to wine, but
then I am a card carrying Frenchman so hardly unbiased). I particularly liked
the ending:

> Of course, none of this applies to me. I honestly love Van Gogh paintings,
> not because it signals good taste within my social circle, but because
> they're intrinsically beautiful.

Well, I love my Port Ellen, Karuisawa and Mortlach and I would look forward to
adding Urushi Seikos or Chanel's Cuir de Russie (vintage, of course) to my
collections. For their intrinsic qualities, naturally. Unfortunately, my wife
does not see those intrinsic qualities as clearly as I do, so my plans have
been put on hold for the moment (and, probably, all future moments).

~~~
peterwwillis
You compared "aged whisky", "goodyear-welted shoes" and "suits" to things like
Rolex watches, on the basis that they are all about signaling.

This is like saying, because I prefer an all-wheel-drive car, it is for the
same reason as buying a Ferrari, because who could possibly need a an all-
wheel-drive car?

Other than people who drive in the snow.

Suits are warm and durable and fashionable, goodyear-welted shoes will last
forever, be comfortable and weather-resistant, and aged whisky tastes
different than non-aged whisky. You buy these generic categories of products
for a practical reason. If you want to pay for the one that costs 10 times
more than the others, _that_ is signaling.

I was going to give Johnny Walker as an example, but here's a better one:
George Dickel Rye. It's fantastic, it's $26, and nobody knows it exists. It's
comparable to a nice scotch. So why don't people drink this instead of scotch?
Because scotch has things this doesn't, and they're willing to pay whatever it
costs to get it. At a bar, though, I always buy the Dickel if it's available,
because you can't beat the value.

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thedaemon
You should try Bulleit Rye. It's top notch and not very expensive. All of
Bulleit's whiskeys are good. Their standard whiskey is a bit sweet but still
has good flavor. Great for an old fashioned. Their Frontier is my favorite
though.

~~~
peterwwillis
I find most bourbon to have a cough medicine aftertaste, and Bulleit Rye just
tastes like a spicy Bulleit, so i'm not a fan. George Dickel Rye tastes like
someone took a Macallan and added spice.

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cplease
Eh. Price will go up to match demand, the market will clear.

Meanwhile, turnaround time on a serviceable corn whiskey is less than thirty
days from cob to bottle. No one is going to die for lack of drink.

Whole story is a bunch of hype.

~~~
tptacek
Wait, what serviceable 30 day whiskey are you referring to? What's the service
model?

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cplease
I can't from this whether you are asking an honest question or if you can't
google "define:serviceable", or can't google "corn whiskey" and see the first
result in either case.

~~~
tptacek
I'm suggesting that there probably is a product called "30 day old corn
whiskey" and that it probably isn't very good.

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cplease
You are entitled to that opinion, but you've missed the point entirely.

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hobarrera
I wonder if you can put the whiskey in some non-reacting container, and dump
the oak inside of it.

This way, the exposed surface of the wood is twice as much (since both sides
touch the whiskey), reducing the amount of oak needed.

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peterwwillis
I had a bottle of Renegade, a 100% malted barley distilled in steel barrels
with white oak chips for 60 days. It was.... weird, to say the least.
Confusing. I don't usually drink malt whiskey other than scotch, so that could
have just been totally new to me, but I wasn't a big fan.

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venomsnake
Here is a free tip to rapid agrers - add sunlight. Putting a bottle of good
stuff in the sun for the summer destroys it. But it smooths out the rough
stuff a lot. Source - forgot some bottles of cheap scotch on the balcony in my
college days.

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sverige
I do like bourbon, but not nearly as much as rye. There have been a number of
new American ryes in the last decade. I'm not going to tell you my favorites,
though. I don't want the price to go up.

~~~
tptacek
That's ok. Most of them are interchangeable MGP whiskeys anyways, and will
always have some lower-priced lesser-known entirely-equivalent cousins.

~~~
sverige
True enough. I've sometimes thought about distilling my own as an experiment.
It takes a long time to find out the results, though, and you're in constant
danger from the revenuers.

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beloch
"During the aging process, changes in heat and pressure push and pull the
alcohol in and out of the wood. There is a constant back-and-forth between
aldehyde and acid, until the acids accumulate en masse and turn permanently
into esters, adding complex character and deep flavors."

This quote I found interesting. It would seem an important ingredient in
making whisky is a locale with reasonably varied weather. I wonder if anyone
has tried the equivalent of putting their whisky barrels in a giant iron lung?
Pushing and pulling the whisky in and out of the wood more often might speed
up the aging process.

"When it opened in 2003, Tuthilltown started experimenting with accelerating
the maturation of single malt, rye, and bourbon whiskeys by letting the
alcohol settle in 2- to 5-gallon oak barrels, instead of the industry-standard
53- to 55-gallon oak casks, increasing the alcohol-to-barrel-surface ratio.
The small barrels sped up aging significantly; we could get to market in
months, instead of years,” says Tuthilltown co-owner Ralph Erenzo"

Laphroaig takes 5-year old whisky and then ages it in "quarter casks" (~80 L
or 20 gallons) for several months. The result is actually pretty tasty for a
relatively cheap scotch. (Warning: must like Islay's or this one will slay
you). Their 10-year old bottling is a bit nicer, but almost twice the price.

It's worth noting that more years in the barrel doesn't always improve a
whisky. Islay's tend to lose their famous medicinal character if aged for too
long, and other scotches often just get musty. I once had a 30-year old
bottling of a rye that tasted like licking a steel drum. I'm not sure what
went wrong there. Unlike many other things, there isn't so much a point of
diminishing returns, but rather, a point after which a whisky will start
getting _worse_ , even as the prices continue to grow exponentially.

"Bourbon made in less than a year may be financially savvy, but most bourbon
experts say it falls short on taste. “I don’t think new methods are producing
whiskey that is comparable,” Bryson says. “Some accelerated whiskeys don’t
feel right. They feel too thin; they don’t have the proper ‘roundness.’ ”

I'd have to do a double blind taste-test to be convinced this is true. Are
whisky aficionados really more accurate than wine tasters, who famously aren't
good at telling what they're drinking at all? I'm certain I could tell an
Islay from a Rye or a Speyside, but could I tell a 5-year-old Bourbon from an
8-year-old Bourbon made by the same distiller if they were messing about with
these accelerated aging methods?

Aging issues aside, it will be interesting to see how consumer tastes evolve
over the coming decades. Scotch has come on big in the last couple of decades
and demand for Bourbon is also exploding. Rye (especially Canadian Rye)
remains a bit of a niche drink though, but public interest seems to be picking
up. Last year, Jim Murray declared the #1 new whisky in the world to be Crown
Royal Northern Harvest Rye, which is a good rye for the price, but nothing
particularly special. There are several Canadian Rye producers that could
easily produce higher end bottlings if the market demand was there, and it
does seem to be developing. It would be a fine day indeed if Alberta Premium
started regularly producing 20-30 year-old bottlings instead of tricking an
extremely limited bottling out every 5 years.

~~~
stepvhen
On your first point: people have known about this for a long time. Rum, for
instance, is mostly produced in warmer climates, and the aging process is 2x
to 5x faster. A 3 year rum tastes like a 10 year whiskey. And indeed, Buffalo
Trace ages its Blanton's brand whiskey at the top of a meal rickhouse, where
it can get the most exposure to the shifting temperatures of the natural
world. (it pays off, it is one of the best bourbons you can get for $60 or
even more).

Second: Scotch is aged very differently from bourbon, mostly regarding the
barrel restrictions bourbon has (new charred american oak, only). A number of
scotch distilleries actually buy barrels off of bourbon distilleries after the
casks have been used. Thats also why bourbon is almost always much sweeter in
profile than scotch or other whiskies. (Also Laphroaig is delicious).

~~~
manachar
It'd be fascinating if a few barrels of Laphroaig were sent someplace warm,
but equally as coastal for aging to see how it changes the tastes.

~~~
stepvhen
Too much effort and money, probably, especially since they have a good spot in
the market right now.

However, Jefferson's Ocean [1] whiskey is an experiment where Jefferson's took
68 bourbons aged 6-8 years, blended them together, threw the barrels onto a
ship, and sent it on a 6 month sea voyage. Apparently, it yielded some
interesting, tasty bourbon. I haven't had it, I havent even seen it in person.
But be on the look out, i guess.

[1] [http://thewhiskeyjug.com/bourbon-whiskey/jeffersons-ocean-
ag...](http://thewhiskeyjug.com/bourbon-whiskey/jeffersons-ocean-aged-sea-
review/)

~~~
Kalium
I've had it. It's amazing and well worth the price. Hell, well worth a
significantly higher price.

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etherealmachine
Not a very good article since it doesn't mention Lost Spirits
(www.lostspirits.net), with working technology that can age Whiskey and other
spirits in a week. Maybe it's technically true that you can't hide the age,
but apparently you can just fake it.

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klodolph
I don't understand how mentioning one recent startup which barely has samples
out can make or break an article like this.

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kristofferR
"Barely has samples out" is not really true. Rational Spirits Santeria Rum,
produced with his rapid aging tech, has been sold for months now.

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hinkley
...typo

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kristofferR
Hahaha, whoops. What a typo...

I fixed it now. Thanks

