
The Electric-Bike Conundrum - jseliger
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-electric-bike-conundrum
======
slackstation
This is just people complaining loudly and vebosely about something they don't
like and trying to make it into a vague moral failing.

Electric bikes exist.

Bike advocates for years have railed against cars and said the world would be
so much better if people biked. Now the electric bike is expanding the world
of biking and all of the social benefits of biking still exist with electric
bikes and these people don't like it.

It's just classic policing of a sub-culture. According to him, you aren't a
real cyclist if you aren't pedaling as hard as he is. What he needs to do is
get over himself and realize that progress doesn't look like what you want it
to look like; that you should learn to accept the world rather than just like
a child expect the world to conform to your purist expectations.

~~~
antonvs
I doubt you read the full article.

It's quite a bit more reasoned than you suggest. The author acknowledges his
bias, its source, and even that it's not entirely rational. But he's also
exploring how e-bikes change the dynamic of pedestrian vs. bike vs. car
traffic in a city, what kinds of pros and cons exist, and whether there are
any rational sources of objection to the way e-bikes are currently being used.

He acknowledges that e-bikes are fun and useful: "I found the effect narcotic
and delightful: on a flat road, I moved faster than I did on a normal bike,
with less exertion. [...] Assisted living was so pleasant!"

Commiserating with a friend, they conclude that despite their objections, "for
all our shared sense that something was wrong with electric bikes, we agreed
that, by any rational measure, they are a force for good. [...] The engines
are efficient, they reduce congestion [...] Fewer cars, more bikes."

However, they did identify at least one issue worth considering:

> "if you are not human-powered, you should not be using human-powered
> infrastructure. You should be in the street. E-bikes being licensed as
> motorized vehicles is good. E-bikes being in human-powered infrastructure is
> no good..."

Of course it's not quite that simple - e-bikes mingling with cars seems more
dangerous than them mingling with human-powered traffic - but it's a point
worth considering, for sure. For example, it's much easier to get up to 20 mph
on an e-bike than an ordinary bike, and they tend to be quieter, too, so for
pedestrians they can be quite terrifying. As the number of e-bikes increases,
it's likely to become necessary to address this kind of thing.

He also notes the increasing difficulty of distinguishing between human-
powered and assisted activity in an increasingly machine-assisted world,
acknowledging that the distinction in the quote above is becoming less easy to
make.

Even if you disagree with his perspective, it ought to be possible to read an
article like this and recognize its value, unless you're even more
ideologically fixed on a particular perspective than the author is.

~~~
euos
Ebikes are not faster then the regular bikes. I am biking on a trail that has
a 15mph speed limit. Even when I am allowing myself to go at 20 mph, I am
constantly taken over by those elitist cyclists who feel like they are doing
so much good by mere cycling that the rules don't apply to them.

Assist is "optimized" for 20mph and is capped at like 28 - I believe this is
due to European laws. I have yet to breach 24 mph even with a full assist on a
straight road.

~~~
masklinn
> Ebikes are not faster then the regular bikes.

No but they do react very differently, mainly at startup.

> Assist is "optimized" for 20mph and is capped at like 28 - I believe this is
> due to European laws.

EU classifies ebikes as bicyles if the assistance has cut out by 25 _km_ /h
(16mph), the ebike must also have an engine under 250W, and must not allow
power on demand (only pedaling assistance).

Individual countries may have a broader category for bicycle, or may have
additional categories between bicycles and mopeds or motorbikes (e.g.
s-pedelec in Germany), but the pedelec classification guarantees your ebike is
treated as a bicycle (rather than a moped) across the EU.

------
wiredfool
Was just in semi-rural Germany (villages every km or two, farmer's fields
between, so not urban commuting) and I'd say half of the bikes I passed were
electric assist. There weren't actually that many cyclists, considering the
infrastructure available. Many bike/ped only paths near the roads, and many
roads that are farmworker/ped/bike only, so no cars (but those tended to be
significantly hilly, like 1k feet of climbing/10 miles).

But for the most part, the people on the electric assist bikes were older, a
distinct population from the ones out for a spin. They were also pretty mellow
in terms of speed -- faster than the kiddos but I'd pass them pretty handily
on my road bike. It's my impression that the electric bikes there definitely
expand the cycling population, and don't detract from it at all.

(ymmv, n=small and all that)

~~~
jahnu
Yeah, was in Lindau and Bregenz, Austria last weekend. E-bikes are a big thing
with elderly people (or those who live up the big hills)

------
guyzero
No one parodies Hacker News comments as well as Hacker News commenters.

This is a piece about one guy's emotions and feelings about the rise of
e-bikes. He's not policing anything. He's not setting government policies.
He's lamenting that bicycling, especially in NYC, was once an activity for
people who had to physically struggle with it and who got some viceral return
from that and now it's just another form of commuting alongside cars, taxis
and the subway.

He's not telling anyone not to buy an e-bike. He's not saying they don't
belong on the road. People have written the same pieces about automatic
transmission in cars and all other sorts of automation. Of course e-bikes will
continue to grow. But riding one will never be the same as doing it all
yourself.

~~~
giggles_giggles
The attitude in the article reminds me of a passage from George Orwell's _Road
to Wigan Pier_ :

"Everyone who has travelled by primitive methods in an undeveloped country
knows that the difference between that kind of travel and modern travel in
trains, cars, etc., is the difference between life and death. The nomad who
walks or rides, with his baggage stowed on a camel or an ox-cart, may suffer
every kind of discomfort, but at least he is living while he is travelling;
whereas for the passenger in an express train or a luxury liner his journey is
an interregnum, a kind of temporary death. And yet so long as the railways
exist, one has got to travel by train—or by car or aeroplane. Here am I, forty
miles from London. When I want to go up to London why do I not pack my luggage
on to a mule and set out on foot, making a two days of it? Because, with the
Green Line buses whizzing past me every ten minutes, such a journey would be
intolerably irksome. In order that one may enjoy primitive methods of travel,
it is necessary that no other method should be available. No human being ever
wants to do anything in a more cumbrous way than is necessary."

For someone to whom the effort required to be a bicyclist was a badge of
honor, an electric bike is the equivalent of that annoying Green Line bus, I
would think..

~~~
xg15
I get your point, but I think it's somewhat ironic we currently have this
thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15045531](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15045531)
just a few items below the current on on the frontpage.

------
Chardok
Its a conundrum right now, for sure, but I am all for getting more people on
bikes, electric or not.

The main issue with e-bikes in the bike lane is obviously the speed and pacing
are not going to match your average bicycle commuter. The same effect would
result from a professional cyclist carving through the streets at speeds no
one could match.

I think the issue would solve itself as they become more popular. If they can
hit speeds of 20-40MPH, then they should be using a full car lane, and can
benefit from each other's presence. Professional and highly trained amateur
cyclists do this already.

~~~
hedora
The main problem I've seen is that they have a different acceleration curve
than a road bike -- they take off from a dead stop faster than a road bike,
but for some reason most top out a few mph lower than a slow road bike
(15-18mph?).

The result is that they rudely pass all the bikes at each stop light,
repeatedly forcing the bikes to pass them in car lanes once everyone gets back
up to speed.

~~~
horsawlarway
They often stop there because they're speed capped by law.

20mph in the US. Slightly lower in most of the EU.

I have a pedal assist wheel, and it will bring me to 20 fairly quickly on flat
ground, but all assist cuts out there and the rest is up to me. Usually I
hover around 25, but it depends on how I'm feeling that day. You're not really
going to pass me at 25 though... Even if you do think it's a problem, it just
means we need better bike lanes and bike planning. Speeds vary all the time.

That said... I bike to work pretty much all the time now because of the
electric bike.

The end result is dramatically and unquestionably good.

The article can be summed up by their own quote:

>And yet, for all our shared sense that something was wrong

>with electric bikes, we agreed that, by any rational

>measure, they are a force for good.

This nostalgia fluff piece is fluff. It's basically attempting to explain a
soft form of gatekeeping around people who do or don't qualify as cyclists.

~~~
hedora
If you're hovering around 25mph, then you're not causing trouble for anyone.
It's good to know the ebikes don't somehow limit you once you're up to speed.

I guess the problem I see is inexperienced cyclists stuck at 20mph. Presumably
that problem will fix itself after they log a few hundred miles and get a bit
faster.

------
ams6110
I think pedal-assist is fine, but some e-bikes are effectively motorcycles in
terms of the speed they can travel. Those are dangerous on bike/pedestrian
trails and paths. They should be licensed and taxed and require insurance like
motorcycles do, and they should have to use the roads not bike paths or
trails.

~~~
avita1
In my admittedly anecdotal experience, e-bike riders tend to actually be as
safe if not safer on trails and paths.

Plenty of traditional bikers are folks who are using bike shares and do things
like not wear helmets, ignore road signs, ride two abreast, and swerve without
warning. Also a problem are the "pro" bikers (you know, the ones on a racing
bike, fully decked out in gear) that tend to ride ~10 mph faster than everyone
else and pass aggressively.

E-bikers on the other hand, go in a straight line, usually single file,
without swerving and seem to follow traffic signs because they have an easier
time accelerating and decelerating.

Again, just my anecdotal experience -- I ride ~5 miles to/from work in New
York.

~~~
Terr_
Yeah, I imagine e-bikers have fewer incentives to "cheat" traffic rules, it
costs them less to obey.

I wouldn't be surprised if that overshadows any danger from introducing
different travel patterns compared to regular bikes.

------
bryanlarsen
One windy day I asked an e-biker if he wouldn't mind breaking the wind for me
on my commute. He agreed, and obligingly slowed down for me a couple times
when he dropped me.

Ever since I've been much more charitable towards these "cheaters".

------
hathawsh
Perhaps what bothers the author about e-bikes is that using a bike safely on
streets requires hard-won skills, and riders who start out on an e-bike might
get hurt before they acquire those skills. The faster the bike, the greater
the probable damage.

Just this morning, as I was biking to work, a car came within an inch or so of
hitting me, but I was moving slowly enough to avoid a collision. On an e-bike
the story might have been very different.

~~~
horsawlarway
There is absolutely some truth to this.

Just like learning to drive, learning to bike takes some time and effort.

In the US it's considerably worse because our bike infrastructure is downright
terrible in most cities.

I was biking in Amsterdam a year ago, and holy shit the difference is night
and day (even with the shitty delivery guys doing 40mph on their gas scooters
in the bike lanes).

Just putting up temporary bike lanes in some cities increased bike rides by
800% ([http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/28/macon-georgia-
striped-...](http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/28/macon-georgia-striped-a-
good-network-of-temporary-bike-lanes-and-cycling-soared/)).

There's a huge and mostly hidden demand for this. People don't think about it,
but when it's offered they take advantage.

------
habosa
Take a look at something like the Super 73 Scout:
[https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/12/15958836/s...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/12/15958836/super-73-scout-
price-ride-range-photos)

When I first saw this I thought "hell yeah I am buying on of those right this
second". I bike every day in SF and there are tons of hills, I'd love one of
these for when I am feeling lazy and want to have some fun.

But then I thought about what I'd be like in the bike lane. If someone went by
me on one of those I'd be pretty grumpy. They take up more space, they don't
have the right acceleration patterns, and the rider is not nearly as engaged
with the ride.

I think the e-bike is the perfect city vehicle, but not sure where they will
fit in between bikes and motorcycles as they evolve.

~~~
Fricken
The article describes the super 73 as a minimalist ebike. That's not
minimalist. This is minimalist:

[http://www.propellabikes.com/](http://www.propellabikes.com/)

~~~
masklinn
You're confusing e-bicycle and e-motorbike. The Super 73 is the later.

------
dalanmiller
A few critical problems in the US that you don't see as much in Europe
(especially DACH + NE where bike culture / support is fantastic):

* is a clear respect for the fact you're in a 4,000 lbs vehicle and I'm on a bike. If you hit me, I die. Drivers in CH stop and wait meters away for bikers to pass the intersection. People in America ain't got time for that I guess. * Great intra-suburban bike lines that can support multiple commute speed bikers on electric assist or not. (Try riding from any south bay city to any other non-adjacent south bay city) * General conditioning to driving culture. You gotta get somewhere, you hop in your whip. Walking or other forms of transportation are looked down upon.

~~~
titanomachy
CH = Switzerland? Definitely found it a safe place to bike, or to drive for
that matter.

Also I guess DACH is Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Never seen that
abbreviation before, but then I live in North America.

~~~
anotherboffin
CH = Switzerland indeed (from "Confoederatio Helvetica").

About DACH, I think your interpretation is correct, but I had never seen it
either.

------
indigo0086
Natural progression of the trend I'm seeing in the comments

Step 1: Peaceful citizen buys an ebike to make commute easier. (person is
elderly, permanent injury, has steep climb daily, other reasons that are their
own)

Step 2: Rider Wears helmet, slows on oncoming traffic, stops at lights, and is
generally a perfectly fine rider like many bike riders

Step 3: Concerned mom-type notices faster bikes with engines in lane and
complains

Step 4: Law passed, Rider is now doing something illegal

Step 5: Ticket/Jail/Confiscated bike despite no evidence or numbers that rider
was a danger to himself or others any more than cyclists

This is literally every law that affects peaceful citizens.

~~~
Noos
A problem is that if the bicycle goes above 20mph, it is a scooter and would
fall under motorcycling laws. That means licensing and insurance. Generally
under 20 miles or so it is considered a moped and is treated differently.

Also no offense, but going 20 mph in a bike lane or worse a sidewalk would be
very bad. An ebike is not a bike, but a moped under the classic definition, a
bicycle with pedals and a engine to provide supplemental power. It's just not
a gas moped.

~~~
horsawlarway
Yes... and most electric assist bikes cap out at 20 mph in the US, as required
by law.

Also... you sound like you've never ridden a road bike seriously. 20mph in a
bike lane, especially while going downhill, is pretty meagre for a standard
road bike. No assist needed.

Hell, I'm fat (ish) and I can hit 25 on flat ground on my road bike with some
effort (although staying there is draining). I can easily do 30 going
downhill.

I'm regularly passed by folks doing more than 30 on hills where I live.

~~~
indigo0086
I forgot about that, downhill without pedaling brings most bikes a good clip,
mine being no exception. I have a really good bike with great disk breaks I
keep in good shape so I'm no more or less in danger than any other bike on the
road. The biggest concern any cyclists have are crowded streets and poorly
thought out bike lanes, not ebikes.

------
baccredited
How many pedestrians and bikers have been injured and/or killed by electric
bikers? How does that compare to cars and trucks? Wouldn't that information be
helpful in thinking through whether there is any problem at all here?

~~~
loeg
The population of ebike riders is tiny but growing rapidly. It seems like that
might make it difficult to measure relative injury rates accurately.

------
Tiktaalik
Electric bikes may end up setting back progress in getting people to switch to
cycling as a main form of transportation.

One of the most significant deterrents to cycling has been the danger involved
with being mixed in with automobiles that are easily able to injure and kill a
cyclist. The biggest gains in increasing bicycle use has been by creating bike
lanes for all ages and abilities that are completely separated from traffic
with physical barriers. These are safe spaces for bicycle users and all people
can feel comfortable riding on them, whether they're young and fit, elderly or
if they're riding with their young child that is just learning.

With the advent of fast moving electric bicycles, suddenly these all ages and
abilities bike lanes may not be such safe spaces any more and this could
discourage people from cycling. People may not want to take their young child
out cycling if there are food couriers zooming by at speeds that a normal
bicycle wouldn't be capable of.

~~~
_ph_
It is actually quite the contrary. Electric bikes should bring bikes back as
full members of the public traffic. Yes, some people are terrified to drive
amongst cars. But the so called bike paths are the actual death traps, as most
of them have dangerous encounters with the car traffic where it is the most
difficult to spot bicyclists, that is at crossings. A large amount of the
bicycle deaths are caused by trucks turning right across the bike path,
killing a bicyclist. Furthermore, at least in Germany, they are not in a shape
for comfortable riding. The only ones enjoying bike paths are unexperienced
and untrained bicyclists, who ride a long at little more than walking speed.

Any reasonably seasoned bicyclists easily bikes at 20-30 kph in the flats, so
by far exceed the safe bike path speeds. Electric bikes give this speed to
anyone, who might be older, or is commuting and does not seek the sporty
challenge. This requires proper bike traffic handling by the authorities.

~~~
jnty
This is a disingenuous argument - cars are "full members of the public
traffic" and are regularly involved in minor and major collisions with each
other. Drivers are rarely killed or seriously injured in these collisions,
whereas it's almost impossible for a cyclist to escape these collisions
_without_ an injury. "Some people are terrified" because injury and death is a
very real possibility in traffic.

The primary issue with road safety is not the speed of cycling but the
presence of motor vehicles. The only adequate mitigation is to make them go
very slowly to reduce the energy of collision (on side streets) or eliminate
them (on well-designed, segregated bike paths). The fact that Germany is not
very good at segregation does not invalidate the concept - just look at the
Netherlands for an example of what can be achieved.

~~~
_ph_
The point is, if you drive in the normal car lane, it is pretty impossible for
a driver, who is not asleep, to miss you and hit you. So while it looks scary,
it is very safe, as I assume that every driver tries not to hit a bicyclist.
But I have not seen a bike infrastructure inside towns which don't involve
crossings. At those crossings it is very easy to hit a bicycle, even if you
pay a lot of attention as a driver. So, unless it does not cross car traffic,
bike paths are more dangerous than being in lane with cars.

~~~
jnty
It is unfortunately very possible for a driver to be asleep, texting or just
to make a massive misjudgement. As you say, crossing situations are some of
the most dangerous on a bike, but there's no reason why a properly designed
bike lane junction need be more dangerous than a normal road junction. In
fact, intuitively, general road junctions are more dangerous as drivers are
looking for other road vehicles, rather than bikes, and can very easily miss
them. If you're going to continue making this argument, I'd root it in stats -
show me a place which has no cycling infrastructure yet which is safer than
Copenhagen or Utrecht.

------
Zigurd
New York City lowered their speed limit to 25mph. Electric bikes generally
don't go over 20mph. The trick is they can consistently travel at 20mphs - a
fast pace for an average human pedaling a bike. That is, they perform like a
fast cyclist. I doubt electric bikes will be incompatible with NYC bike and
car traffic.

~~~
magpi3
By law in the U.S. electric bikes cannot provide assistance over 20mph.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Federal_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Federal_Laws_and_Regulations_Pertaining_to_the_Sale_of_Electric_Bicycles)

------
schneems
I have an electric bike and I love it. It makes places that were "just a bit
too far" away without assist perfectly close. It won't replace a car 100% for
me (I live in Austin, Tx), but it does cut down my total car trips quite a
bit.

------
acomjean
I looked into getting one. It would increase my commute range if I move (I
ride about 4miles to and from work daily). It would also make me a little less
sweaty on those hot summer mornings.

They are fun, you feel very strong riding them. Most have various levels of
assist. They are heavy and making them a good workout with the assist off.

I do feel you would get scowls from other riders, though they are a little
discreet (pedal assist means you look like pedaling), you do notice when
people ride by such little effort.

------
hyperbovine
Ah man as a committed bike commuter in a hilly place I _SOOOOOOOOOO_ identify
with the what the author is saying. Something about electric bikes just ...
irks me. It's totally irrational because every e-bike is presumably one less
car on the road. But the bike lane should be reserved for bikes. And hard
work.

~~~
pyoung
For what it's worth, as a fellow non-electric bike commuter, plenty of non-
electric bike commuters irk me. Whether it's jumping in front of me while I am
waiting at a light, only to be significantly slower than me when the light
changes. Or passing at speed on the right hand side. Or jamming up a 4-way
intersection by blasting through while others are waiting. In general, some
people tend to turn into assholes when they are commuting, regardless of what
form of transportation they are using. If someone is using an electric bike,
and they are being courteous to other road users then there really isn't any
problem. And as far as I am concerned, they really aren't that different than
the lycra clad strava jockeys that are already racing all over the place, with
the exception that electric bike users are probably MORE likely to obey the
rules of the road because it is easier for them to get up to speed after
stopping.

------
dsfyu404ed
> "E-bikes being licensed as motorized vehicles is good. E-bikes being in
> human-powered infrastructure is no good. . . .”

And that's a great way to make sure e-bikes stay unpopular. Most "developed"
countries make owning a motorcycles only slightly less expensive than a car
(because safety). If it's less convenient and not cheap enough to offset that
people won't do it.

------
sunstone
I had a Jetson e-bike and it was great. What I found was that it was much more
of a replacement for short haul car trips than it was for long haul bike
trips. Also, as a rider and a driver, I find e-bikes are fast enough to not be
too irritating in regular traffic.

The more popular they become the safer they will become to ride in traffic.
They just need to get cheaper and rangier.

------
jkaptur
> “But, I feel there is a clear line between human power and non-human power,”
> he added. “I think there should be a very simple classification: human-
> powered or not human-powered.

I wonder which side of the line electric shifting (which is legal in cycling
race) falls.

~~~
jonathantm
Electic shifting is irrelevant here. Does it contribute energy to the
propulsion? No. It would be akin to asking if wearing a digital watch rather
than an automatic (mechanical) watch makes your bike an electic bike.

You can say it aids propulsion, but that's only because it aids managing the
gear ratios. It doesn't contribute energy to the the propulsive force of the
engine of the bike (the cyclist). Yes, it is involved in the drivetrain, but
the engine in the derailleur does not contribute wattage to the turning of the
cranks. It's power is applied to a horizontal repositing of the conduit
through which the propulsive power is transferred.

~~~
mmariani
Technically you're correct. However, practically there is an advantage of
electric vs mechanical shifting. Usually mechanical derailleurs misbehave a
little when used under load. When in turn electric derailleurs shift just
fine. That's one reason why all pro sprinters ride di2, eps or etap.

------
Terr_
> I began to crave that bump. It was the effect of the assist I wanted; it was
> the feeling of being assisted.

Isn't that qualitatively the enjoyment drivers can get from accelerating in a
car?

------
throwaway73738
Here in Tokyo, mamacharis with their 1.1 kids are all electric powered. Real
bikes are rare to come by for a city as large as this one.

------
whipoodle
> “If it’s such a good thing, why do we have this resentment?” I asked.

Yes, why?

------
bamboozled
Just no, we really need to stop taxing and penalising bike culture worldwide,
electric or not.

Wanna tax something? How about fossil fuels and combustion engines.

~~~
indigo0086
"concern mom" mentality. All ebike sold in the us have to have a speed
limiter, I am limited to 20 miles an hour on a flat road and daily get
bypassed by a few mph easy.

~~~
borisj
Interesting. My normal flat road pace on my road bike is in the mid 20s.

~~~
jrowley
How long can you ride at that speed? I'm wondering because I average around 15
on my commuter bike and i'm thinking of getting something faster for my
commute.

~~~
hedora
I average 12.5-15 on my commute, and max out at 22-23 on flats. I can keep up
with most, but not all, ebikes, and am slower than most road bikes.

I probably couldn't keep up with you + ebike if you average 15 on a regular
bike.

I wonder how the governor works. Does it just stop assisting at 20, or does
regenerative braking automatically kick in?

------
eggs_and_avo
Here's a conundrum: Cars kill ~30,000 people per year in the USA. Vehicle
emissions cause ~58,000 premature deaths. That's a problem. Not bicycles, not
E-bikes, not bike sharing programs, not motorcycles, not skateboards, not
rollerblades – Cars!

~~~
summer_steven
> Here's a conundrum: Cars kill ~30,000 people per year in the USA. Vehicle
> emissions cause ~58,000 premature deaths. That's a problem. Not bicycles,
> not E-bikes, not bike sharing programs, not motorcycles, not skateboards,
> not rollerblades – Cars!

Let's also consider how many lives that fuel-based transportion _saves_. How
many people would die of starvation if you outlawed internal combustion
engines? How much would clothes cost? Food? I'll remind you electric engines
cannot easily transport 1000-tons of goods across a transcontinental railroad.

------
scythe
I broke my knee three months ago. At that point I went from uninterested to
annoyed by the recent wave of attempts to convert roads into bike paths. And
this guy -- I hope he breaks his knee.

------
tomjen3
>But he hadn’t worked to go that fast.

I can't explain what I think about that without getting banned on this forum,
but that feeling seems to be the center of the article; basically hipsters
crying about smart use of technology.

~~~
jff
I swear there's a pervasive feeling among bicycle and mass transit advocates
that if the experience is too convenient, it's not morally right. A bicycle is
morally right because it takes effort and gets you to work a bit slower than a
car. An e-bike is morally wrong because you don't have to work as hard and you
get to work just as fast; you're not sacrificing anything by not taking a car,
you're not a hero. Similar reasons behind buses/trains vs. ideas of self-
driving electric municipal cars.

~~~
sevensor
This is true of any community where the barrier to entry has rapidly eroded.
The old-school members who bought their way in with hard work and perseverence
(and also usually luck or money) react negatively to recent arrivals who don't
understand the community's norms -- which are now suddenly out of date.
Meanwhile, the new arrivals often see the old guard as a prickly, up-tight
clique. I'm thinking of Endless September, D&D, Anime fandom, model aircraft,
music scenes, Old Money versus New Money, Lisp Machine hackers versus Unix
folks, Unix folks versus OMGUbuntu... the variations are endless, but they're
all the same.

And yet, try as I might to be philosophical about it, my gut tells me that
people passing me on e-bikes are vile cheaters.

~~~
jessaustin
As someone who has killed deer with a bow and arrow ( _not_ on a regular
basis: it's difficult and I don't always have the time required), I feel the
same way about the new rule change that allows people to hunt with crossbows
in archery season. I have sympathy for people who can't or won't draw a bow,
but I don't see what's wrong with them just hunting during gun season as they
always have.

~~~
saalweachter
Did they give a rationale for the change?

I'm kind of curious, since my understanding is that America as a whole is not
hunting "enough" (to keep deer populations at a sustainable level), if it
isn't an explicit attempt to thin deer populations more.

~~~
jessaustin
It's meant to help out feeble people, but it will probably help population
management as well. Deer populations are really only out of control in
suburbia, where crossbows used over a long hunting season might make the
biggest difference. No one is going to call the cops because they heard a
crossbow go off.

