
Observations from a Tipless Restaurant - mattkirkland
http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-restaurant-part-2-money-and-the-law/
======
po
Having lived in Japan for the past few years, I'm so over the tipping culture
it's pretty hard to stomach when I go back to the States. Besides the issues
it causes for employers that this article covers, I really dislike the power
dynamics that it causes for the customers: but maybe not in the way you would
think.

While the customer may be financially powerful in the relationship, I feel
that tipping culture gives power to the server to _withhold good service_ as a
punishment or as an optimization strategy at their own discretion. It causes a
server to judge you as soon as you walk through the door... will this person
give a good tip? Should I ignore them and focus on this other table?

The worst part is that the tip happens at the end of the meal after all of the
'costs' of providing good service are already done. If the patron stiffs the
server, then the effort was 'wasted.' It's far better to make an educated
guess based on… what? the way they dress? their grammar? the car they pulled
in with?

It's a terrible system.

~~~
madebylaw
As an American living in Europe for the last year, I have drawn the exact
opposite conclusion about tipping culture. Many of the restaurants I have been
to (in France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium) have, by American
standards, horrible service. The waitstaff is inattentive or rude. You have to
call waiters over constantly to give them your order, ask for another drink,
or get the bill.

I think that part of this stems from different cultural opinions on service
(i.e. it's rude to bring the check preemptively), but some of it is just lack
of incentive, I think. What incentive does a waitress have to give you good
service if she's making a standard wage and no tips? Especially if the
waitress has increased job protection in certain countries (it's harder for an
employer to fire people in France than in the US).

~~~
TheAnimus
>As an American living in Europe for the last year, I have drawn the exact
opposite conclusion about tipping culture.

As a Brit when in America I find it awful how the waitress will pretend to be
friendly. If we're just a group of guys or whatever I don't want you to be
pretended to be interested in who we are, what we do. Putting a hand on my
back isn't going to make me prefer the food I'm here for. If I wanted someone
to pretend to be my friend, I'd be in a titty bar.

I think there is a good middle ground, in the UK tips are expected to be about
12.5% max. All staff share them, and front of house aren't so transparent in
trying to get a bigger tip from you. People appear to take pride in what they
do, rather than just being mercenary.

~~~
ValentineC
Is there a tipping culture in the UK? I always thought that the mandatory
service charge in some restaurants (especially when one has a big party) made
up for it. Now I feel slightly guilty.

~~~
adw
10-12.5%, but not if there's a mandatory service charge. Restaurants, cab
drivers, barbers etc, but not in pubs (if you're mates with the landlord,
offer them a drink on you sometimes...)

~~~
sejje
What does landlord mean in the UK?

~~~
Fuzzwah
Owner of the establishment (though, often the patron, manager, or person who
runs the place).

------
rm999
Back when I lived in San Diego I took my parents to the Linkery. The service
was so bad it actually reversed my opinions against tipping. The servers
clearly didn't care much about making us happy, messing up almost every aspect
of the order. They put meat in my food - I'm vegetarian. My father got his
food 20 minutes after my mother and I did. The waiter forgot one of my drinks.
We called over the manager who offered us a free dessert to make up for it.
Guess what? The dessert was on the bill. I'm always happy to tip 20+% for good
service, but being _forced_ (yes, we asked) to pay the service charge added
insult to injury.

This is just one data point, but the Linkery was infamous around San Diego for
having much worse service than other places in a similar price range. I'm
convinced their experiment with tipping was correlated with this.

~~~
btilly
In that case you can pay on credit card and challenge the charge. Slightly
unethical, yes. But no less so than what they did.

~~~
steveklabnik
Is providing poor service _unethical_?

~~~
mikeash
Offering a free dessert and then charging for it is outright fraud.

~~~
pc86
Or a mistake.

~~~
mikeash
There comes a point where that is no longer a viable excuse. When the manager
gets involved to rescue a situation after multiple screwups, you're way beyond
that point.

~~~
300bps
I disagree. Charging a single person for a dessert that they were served never
amounts to "outright fraud" as you think it is.

It can be a simple mistake, a boneheaded mistake, a major mistake or a
colossally stupid mistake. But unless free desserts are promised
systematically to a percentage of customers which are then billed for it, it's
not "outright fraud".

~~~
btilly
It moves from mistake to fraud after the bill is argued over.

------
jmharvey
This is an odd title. The article gives an interesting explanation for why,
theoretically, a restaurant would choose to go with a service charge rather
than a tip-based system, but doesn't contain many observations from the now-
tipless restaurant.

The whole idea of mandatory "service charges," or "fees," in any business, is
kind of bizarre. It seems strange that we've accepted that certain types of
businesses (airlines, hotels, ticket brokers, in some cases restaurants)
should list prices that differ significantly from the actual price charged.
There does seem to be some backlash against this practice: Kayak, Hipmunk, and
many other travel sites now list the full price of airline tickets (though,
often, not hotel rooms, with their "facility charges," whatever those are).
And today I noticed that StubHub now shows prices inclusive of all fees. I
understand _why_ a business would like to list prices that are 30% lower than
what the customer actually pays, but it seems a little odd that we're all OK
with it.

~~~
DanielStraight
Relevant to note that almost no American businesses include sales tax in their
listed prices either. (Though it's required in some countries [at least in
some circumstances].)

~~~
JanezStupar
Yes as an European I find it really odd how Americans get to put up with
consumer abuse, just because "this is the way things work".

And this is the country where supposedly everything is done in the name of
consumer.

And listing taxless prices and hiding the cost of service from me by expecting
me to tip waiters.

This is also the reason why I find this article distasteful. So if you are
really that sure about your position, why the hell don't you raise your prices
20% or even 30% for that matter. And when people ask you why are you so
expensive, you can tell them that you pay your people fairly.

~~~
aestra
The reason why prices are almost always listed as taxless is complicated.
Sales tax in the US is weird, and varies a lot by product and jurisdiction. We
have no national sales tax, but each state can levy a sales tax, also each
county and each city can tack on their own tax to that. In New York City for
example, there is a additional small sales tax that is a fraction of a percent
that goes to the MTA. Each percent of the sales price can go to 2-3 or more
different places. As a result a product can be taxed differently down the
street. Each item is taxed differently, food isn't usually taxed, unless it is
restaurant food. Clothes are in some places are aren't in some places.
Sometimes clothes are only taxed if they cost more than a certain amount. Tax
laws can change at any time, so it is easier to program a register than to
reprice the entire store if tax laws change. Our sales tax went up recently.

~~~
JanezStupar
That is not a reason, that is an excuse.

Here in Europe local community also gets their own share in taxes. They are
merely levied in a manner that does not obscure the sale price.

------
madsravn
I live in Denmark. Here tipping is almost not even heard of. Maybe our food
just costs a little bit more, I don't know - because it doesn't say "\+ 10%
tipping fee" or something anywhere. Here you just pay the prices noted next to
the food and drinks that you order.

And the kicker, the service is always good. Because if the server isn't nice,
they'll probably get fired. Because guess what, serving food and being polite
about it is their job. That is what they're getting payed for. So demanding
extra money to do their job with a smile just seems too weird for me.

~~~
300bps
_So demanding extra money to do their job with a smile just seems too weird
for me._

It's funny how famous Americans are for disrespecting other cultures while
Europeans feel free to call anything American that differs from their own
cultures "weird" or worse.

There's plenty of things about Denmark that I find "weird" but I was raised
not to insult other people's culture so I won't call them out.

~~~
gohrt
Waiting tables is the extremely faint end of a spectrum that reaches to
prostitution at the far end. Why pay someone to bring you food, if you aren't
ill? Because you want to be made to feel good. More feelgoods, more money.

~~~
Nursie
>> Why pay someone to bring you food, if you aren't ill? Because you want to
be made to feel good. More feelgoods, more money.

I'm not paying someone to bring me food, that's not the part of the experience
I'm there for. I'm there for someone to cook me food. That the wait staff are
there at all is a convenience, but they're sure as hell not the main
attraction.

------
famousactress
I saw an interview recently with David Chang [1] who implied that part of the
thinking behind the design of his 12-seat, 2-Michelin star restaurant Ko was
an experiment in ways to improve the wages of his employees. Because KO is so
small and the kitchen bellies up to the diners, the cooks are also servers and
can legally make tips.

[1] -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chang)

[Edit - Whoops. As a San Diego resident, I feel bad for neglecting to mention
that The Linkery was awesome and like lots of folks here I'm sorry to see it
go.]

------
decklin
I thought part 1 ([http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-
tipless-...](http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-
restaurant-part-1-overview/)) was particularly insightful:

"A certain small number of very vocal men (and it was always men) resented
that we were not letting [them] try to exercise additional control over our
team members. This was true even though compelling research has shown that
servers do not adjust quality of service as a result of tips; instead the idea
that the restaurant was not offering our servers up as objects of control, was
heresy. For these people, the primary service they wanted from the restaurant
was the opportunity to pay for favors from the server..."

~~~
apalmer
dont really agree with his analysis.

I think the vocal group probably felt if i have to explicitly pay a separate
line item for service then I want explicit control of that... the whole
'primary service is control' angle feels to me like newspeak

------
joosters
If there is a flat 18% service charge, why not just add 18% to the base prices
and get rid of the service charge? Or does a restaurant have to 'hide' these
costs as an added percentage in order to make their prices seem reasonable?

~~~
dfxm12
_Or does a restaurant have to 'hide' these costs as an added percentage in
order to make their prices seem reasonable?_

You hit the nail on the head here. Some places "hide" this charge better than
others. I once had another patron at a place let me know that my check already
included tip so I wouldn't double tip, as my check just had a total on it. It
wasn't itemized at all. _That_ seemed pretty dishonest to me.

~~~
agf
I have a friend who worked at a chain restaurant where they circled the total
on the receipt with a black sharpie.

It was the standard practice of all the servers there to make sure the circle
went through the item showing the included gratuity for parties of six or
more.

Apparently, as a result, they'd get double tipped for large parties about 50%
of the time.

~~~
gohrt
I would love to see that story hit the local news or a racketeering suit.

------
Spooky23
I've never understood why I need to pay the wages of restaurant employees
directly, when just about every other business seems to figure out a way to
fund employee wages by selling products or services.

~~~
smackfu
Because real life isn't as consistent as engineers would like.

~~~
apalmer
uhh... I think your missing the point

------
thoughtsimple
I have had consistently worse service from restaurants that I know share tips.
There is no reason for a server to do better than their coworkers which brings
everyone down to a common denominator.

This is in Massachusetts that does have a tip credit and where servers rarely
get paid the statutory minimum wage if it is a slow night (against the law but
it happens). Just for reference, the server minimum wage is $2.63/hour. If you
can't make enough in tips because its a slow night and one of your coworkers
is bringing the tip average down, your incentive drops off dramatically as
well.

For something like this to work nationwide, the tip credit has to go.

~~~
dfxm12
Do you routinely tell anyone in the restaurant about bad servers?

Maybe it's possible that it is a coincidence that restaurants with tip sharing
have bad servers. Your feedback could be valuable.

------
alistairjcbrown
Coming from the UK, added service charges always annoy me (unless it's for
large parties). A tip is something that I volunteer to express gratitude for a
good experience. It is also something I can refuse if the experience is bad.
Forcing a service charge assumes I will pay X% more than the price I have been
shown regardless of experience.

However, that view is based on the UK system where minimum wage for the
serving staff is enforced and where tip pools are allowed.

~~~
Stately
Also, in the UK it's nothing like the restaurant in the article. I have the
rule of asking, if there is a service charge, who gets the money from it, and
so far in 100% of the cases, the money goes to management, which is
ridiculous.

~~~
tobych
By management, do you mean the managers, or the business?

------
Shank
If you missed part 1, here's the first half of the story:

[http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-
tipless-...](http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-
restaurant-part-1-overview/)

------
davidw
Tipping is fairly rare here in Italy, and the food is "pretty good" \- some
might say excellent - even if there is a tragic lack of good Mexican food in
this country.

~~~
ahoy
Lack of mexican food (or anything properly spicy) was the worst part of being
in Europe.

~~~
mietek
Have you considered trying Indian or Sichuan? At least in the UK, it's easy to
find a vindaloo curry or some kung pao chicken, which are rather spicy.

~~~
ahoy
I love Indian food, but I spent most of my time in Germany, where the spiciest
thing to be found is the occasional sausage that accidentally brushed up
against a pepper.

~~~
phillc73
Having spent time in Bavaria, I know they really enjoy Kren, which is
horseradish. Generally you can buy a plate of cold meats with grated Kren. It
will set your eyes watering.

------
mathattack
I like this quite a bit.

2 places have no tipping in New York City: \- Sushi Yasuda - considered by
some the top sushi spot in the city. (Certainly one of the most expensive) \-
The tap room at Whole Foods - let's just call it a little more lowbrow.

My budget hasn't encouraged me to visit Yasuda in several years, but I will
say that I like not having to pay tips at the tap room. It certainly makes an
inexpensive place seem even cheaper, and their service hasn't suffered for it
at all.

~~~
mef
Yasuda eliminated tipping following the custom in Japan, where there is no
tipping anywhere and the service is arguably the best in the world.

~~~
cynicalkane
Japan goes beyond that. In many 'tipless' cultures they will accept tips
anyway. In Japan, they will give it back to you. I have heard stories of
Japanese waiters running after customers as they leave, to return the tip.

~~~
danso
Ha ha, this makes me laugh a little. The only time I've ever had any waiter
chase me after I had left was at Decibel, a Japanese sake bar in the East
Village (New York). My friend and I had ordered two small glasses of sake,
totaling about $25. My friend, being new to the city, tipped the waiter in the
customary bar fashion: $1 a drink, because the waiter did nothing except pour
us our sake (and was slow in arriving) and never followed up except to take
our bill. The waiter (who was most definitely of Japanese ethnicity) angrily
demanded if we had a problem with his service, and if we didn't, why did we
only tip him $2.

I don't know how closely this sake bar hews to any Japanese convention (my
guess is that it's be the Japanese version of hipsterism), but it was an
amusing episode that led me to never revisit that bar again, as much as I like
the place.

~~~
mathattack
Decibel is a quirky place by any stretch. I've never seen a bar where the
workers sample so much of the product.

------
mr_luc
It makes sense. Good servers are compliance professionals, whether you or they
know it or not, and their pivotal role in the experience means that the good
ones can make good money.

But I know that I've not gone back to restaurants precisely because I didn't
like interacting with the staff, or I didn't like how they interacted with my
guests.

And looking back, the most specific I could be about it was "well, the waiters
were kind of intense." You know what I mean. They were professional, they did
their job, but ... they were intense. And they didn't need to be; we're going
to give them 20%, but they don't know that. So they're ... slightly intense,
forward with their presence, so you won't dare undertip, instead of melting
into the background and letting the food and ambience dominate.

In a restaurant like this guy posits, waiters aren't compliance professionals.

On the other hand, in a tipless restaurant, they aren't paid based on merit,
so maybe they won't be as motivated to do a great job in the parts of their
work that require concentration and diligence.

But they're doing a job that a robot should be doing as soon as possible, and
a whether my server is good, great or okay isn't going to affect how my food
tastes.

~~~
javajosh
> Good servers are compliance professionals

I hate it when people use terms without defining them.

~~~
mr_luc
Sorry -- it's a reference from the book "Influence", which is a fascinating
and, dare I say, influential tome. It doesn't mean anything more complicated
than it reads as.

~~~
qwerty_asdf
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practice)

    
    
      > Compliance professionals often play on this trait by 
      > offering a small gift to potential customers.
    
      > Compliance professionals can exploit the desire to be 
      > consistent by having someone make an initial, often 
      > small, commitment.
    
      > This trait has led compliance professionals to provide 
      > fake information on what others are doing.
    

...sounds like it's psycho-babble parlance for "sales people" or maybe a
broader definition meant to include social roles such as actors,
spokespersons, and celebrity endorsements.

~~~
mr_luc
The book is chock-full of fascinating, real research, much by the author.

It's a classic.

It's not psycho-babble or, as another comment thought, a "business self-help
guru" book.

------
Uncompetative
English pub food is paid for at the bar with your drinks, that you yourself
walk away carrying. They often give you a number on a wooden spoon and if you
hate the food, you just don't go there again.

~~~
virtualwhys
"and if you hate the food, you just don't go there again"

If?

With love, Frenchie

disclaimer: not French, but having spent time in both countries it's clear
that tipping is nowhere near as prevalent as in the States where 20% is pretty
common.

~~~
elemeno
In pubs in England it's traditional to tip by offering to buy the staff member
a drink. They'll charge you for a nominal drink - often saying that they'll
save it for later/when their shift ends as the explanation for why they're not
pouring themselves a drink right then, and the money goes into the tip pool.

For more on Pub culture see the fascinating "Passport to the Pub: A guide to
British pub etiquette" \-
[http://www.sirc.org/publik/pub.html](http://www.sirc.org/publik/pub.html)

~~~
shawabawa3
hmm, I've never done/seen/heard of that and I've lived in London my entire
life. Is it common in other parts of England? Or am I just a stingy bastard?

~~~
peterwwillis
Even in America, part of polite bar culture is buying an especially good
bartender a shot or a drink. It also makes you a quick friend who might
conveniently forget a couple drinks on your bill :)

------
Wintamute
Isn't the real problem that the industry has driven itself into a corner by
charging unrealistically low prices and giving consumers a distorted view of
how much restaurant experiences should cost? A well managed restaurant should
be able to pay its staff a decent wage and turn a profit based on the prices
it charges for its dishes, end of story. If a 20% tip is basically mandatory
in the USA why don't all restaurants unilaterally up their prices 20%. And
then that would allow the odd generous guests to tip/overpay in the somewhat
rare scenarios where the establishment has genuinely excelled. Sounds like you
got yourselves into a right old mess.

~~~
hoggle
I have both run and worked in food & beverage businesses and that is exactly
the problem. Even here in Austria where service personnel usually gets paid
much fairer wages there is still the problem of simply not being able to pay
them those really fair wages because perception of prices by customers is
broken. The reasons for that are similarly complex to why no iOS dev I know
could likely make a living from selling apps on the Apple app store.

E.g. one woman/man food cart or bar owners who offer services for dumping
prices don't know and/or value how much their time and energy is actually
worth or simply feel the need to take the risks to get a competitive edge.

It's a true race to the bottom. In 2013 actually very, very few individuals
and companies are still generating _profits_ (thinking about Amazon,
Salesforce.com, etc).

So profits are drying up for most of us, it's a shame really that a lot of
capitalism critical thinkers seem to have been right all along.

How can we get to a more even distribution of authentic wealth without
throwing out the benefits of capitalism?

Realizing how far I've digressed already, this interview is very relevant IMHO
if we talk about our own industry and the fairy tales in connection with it:
[http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3488-i-talk-to-jason-
calacani...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3488-i-talk-to-jason-calacanis-
about-groupon)

------
amalag
In his scenario the servers make $22, the cooks $14. Is that typical? There
does not seem to be much incentive for a long time occupation as a cook.

~~~
ahoy
I was also shocked by this. Surely your servers aren't worth almost twice what
your cooks are! And with the "no-tips" model , I don't understand why pay
wasn't more even.

~~~
peterwwillis
It sounds reasonable in a racist society. The cooks are probably immigrants,
possibly illegal, and can be paid low wages to perform a rote task. The
servers have to smile and be nice and handle customer complaints, and will
determine whether people come back more than the food. (Just look at Yelp
reviews... people don't care about the food, they care about the service)

~~~
mml
Let's not play that game. As a former cook, I can tell that yes, there are
lots of immigrants. Most of them work unbelievably hard, and really, really
depend on these jobs to survive.

There are also a _lot_ of addicts, psychopaths, morons and other assorted
human detritus, of ever conceivable hue competing for these jobs, which also
depresses wages.

Furthermore, restaurants don't have any damn money. Restaurants are on razor
thin margins always. Usually a bad week or two from going under.

Qualifications for working in the kitchen consist of:

1\. will you work for very little money? 2\. can you work ok when you're high
and/or drunk? For fancy places: 3\. can you safely handle a knife? 4\. will
you toil endlessly for no apparent reason?

That's pretty much it.

~~~
peterwwillis
Yeah, what is it with drunks and addicts going hand in hand with cooks? All
the chefs i've known would down a bottle of vodka a day, if not more. The
Betty Ford Center would probably get 3 Michelin stars.

~~~
rdouble
There's hardly any other place that will hire a known drunk, addict or felon.
Even garbage men and roughnecks get random drug tests these days.

------
kgmpers
For just some interesting historical context, around the turn of the last
century, new middle class in America were very against tipping in restaurants,
viewing it as un-democratic and un-American.

> Anti-tipping advocates often championed an egalitarian vision of capitalist
> consumption in which both consumer and employee would benefit. Tipping, they
> maintained, undermined the dignity and independence of citizens in a
> democracy. “Let us not congratulate the servants on their gain,” one writer
> admonished, “for no servant takes a tip without losing something of manhood
> or womanhood.” Another argued that to accept a tip “is to enter into a
> relationship of dependence to the giver and by implication to acknowledge
> his superiority.” Frank Crane, a syndicated columnist, contended that the
> tip put waiters “into a class with the beggar, or the receiver of a bribe.”
> And Alvin Harlow, a historian popular at the time, wrote: “What, may I ask,
> is more un-American than tipping? It doesn’t belong in American society; it
> doesn’t belong in a democracy. It is a product of lands where for centuries
> there has been a servile class.”
> [http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/summer2012/features/tip...](http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/summer2012/features/tipping-
> point.html)

------
ArtDev
"So, the two servers make a total of about $26/hour each, while everyone else
in the restaurant is stuck at $8/hour."

My first jobs were as a busser, dishwasher, prep cook and line cook.

As a customer, I hate tipping! Tipping is an absurdly unfair practice. I never
tip over 15%, usually 10% and sometimes nothing at all. Waiter/waitresses are
overpaid for what they do.

If the food is good, tip the kitchen, not the person who brought it to the
table.

------
EGreg
I never really understood the point of tips instead of just charging everyone
the service charge. If it is some kind of feedback mechanism to the server for
doing a good job, then why can't the restaurant just implement reviews?

~~~
rwmj
Or sack staff who don't perform well, as happens in every other job.

~~~
EGreg
Are tips customary in European countries and elsewhere outside the USA?

------
kibaekr
I never understood why servers need an extra incentive to do their job well.
It's their job - shouldn't they have some sort of entitlement to do perform
well, even without the extra cash? There are so many other professions in the
service industry, where the tip culture is nonexistent, yet there never seems
to be an outstanding issue.

The cashiers at Safeway, McDonald's drive-thru, flight attendants, and anyone
in the workforce for that matter, don't whine about tips. They do their job,
and they get paid for what their services are worth from their employers.

I'm not opposing giving tips if you received amazing service and you truly
feel like giving one. I just hate the fact that the 18% tip is almost taken
for granted nowadays, and you become the cheap one if you tip less. The tip
system, if at all it should exist, should work so that the extra money
customers pay actually reflect the service they received - not be socially
forced down their throats.

~~~
kibaekr
If restaurants really wanted to insure prompt service, install bells at each
table that would silently notify the staff members when a customer presses it.
This is how it's done in Korea, and in every airplane, and it works perfectly.

No need for waving and trying to make eye contact on that part, and no need
for servers to constantly interrupt your conversation. Not to mention this is
also more convenient for the servers as they can monitor a single screen
rather than the entire room.

------
tantalor
I've eaten at this restaurant several times, and I should say the service was
always excellent, contrary to what you might expect when the service charge is
fixed.

~~~
twoodfin
I suspect that skillful, attentive management (such as the author's) makes
tipping unnecessary to ensure quality service, but also that tipping is one
way to compensate for the lack of such management.

~~~
apalmer
naw not really... i mean bottomline, if you pay someone more to do a good job
they are more likely to do a good job

------
dfxm12
It should be noted that the restaurant now charges a mandatory "service
charge" in lieu of accepting tips. I put service charge in quotes, because in
some jurisdictions[0], there is a legal distinction between a "service
charge/fee" and "auto gratuity". If a restaurant automatically charges you
gratuity (many do this for tables of 6 or more), you don't legally have to pay
it. You _do_ have to pay anything labelled as a "fee" or "charge" though.

[0] I have some knowledge of this in the mid Atlantic states, but the author
is speaking about the West. Maybe it is different over there, maybe it isn't.

------
sz4kerto
Fixed service charge is very common all around Europe.

~~~
DanielStraight
Is it common to refuse an additional tip if offered? In my limited experience,
only once has an additional small tip (such as rounding up 18.50 to 20.00 EUR)
been refused.

~~~
antr
The first time I hear someone refuse a tip.

While in Europe service is included in food prices, it's rare for a tip to be
refused, specially when "rounding".

~~~
DanielStraight
I found it rather strange as well, but it was a pretty strange circumstance:
Small restaurant, late at night, simple food, owner was just hanging out with
a friend playing darts for most of the night, so probably didn't care much one
way or another whether I was there eating. On top of that, it was clear I was
an American and therefore might have thought tipping was effectively mandatory
as in the states.

Still, it was strange. Just making sure it wasn't some larger pattern that I
was unaware of and that the author's refusal to accept tips at all was truly
unique, or at least atypical.

------
JimA
Apparently this model didn't work so well, since they are now closed?
[http://thelinkery.com/blog/](http://thelinkery.com/blog/)

~~~
druiid
Not sure why it didn't work out exactly. If you/we want to find out apparently
we'll have to follow his blog. I do know that the same people who owned
another restaurant here in SD closed another of their restaurants (El Take it
Easy) where they did have tipping. I'm guessing they might have found the
changing food market in San Diego hard to bear. Everyone and their brother has
a 'Farm to Table' restaurant now, so unless you are something very special I
imagine competition will be very, very strong.

------
doktrin
> _Our servers’ total pay rose to about $22 /hour, most of the cooks started
> making about $12-14 depending on experience, and the diswashers about $10._

Can someone explain to me exactly why servers make 2x that of cooks? I
certainly appreciate service, but I go to a restaurant to _eat_ after all.

On a technical level, I also appreciate the skill (and occupational hazards)
involved in cooking, perhaps more so than the interpersonal skills displayed
by servers.

~~~
rdouble
Being a line cook in most restaurants is very repetitive and doesn't require
much skill. You basically just enter a zen state and become a sort of robot
for whatever kitchen station you are manning. That said, the restaurants where
being a cook requires more skill do not usually pay a better wage, which is
unfortunate.

~~~
thetrb
Being a server is also very repetitive and doesn't require much skill (sorry
if that insults any servers, but I don't see how server is a more skilled job
than a cook)

~~~
rdouble
It involves a bit more, you have to take orders, keep tabs on the dining room,
run around balancing a bunch of stuff, interact with people, smile at patrons
and smile at the sous chef who calls you a whore or a queer every time you
pick up. In contrast, being a cook in most kitchens is like being an assembly
line worker. The "grill cook" literally just stands over a grill flipping
stuff. You don't have to ever speak to anyone or even need to know english. (I
was a grill cook in a busy restaurant once)

I'm not saying being a server is worth 2x as much as a cook but I can see how
they could get paid more. In the same vein a bartender makes hella ducats more
than either a server or a cook and most of the time they are just serving beer
or vodka & cranberry drinks.

~~~
doktrin
> _In the same vein a bartender makes hella ducats more than either a server
> or a cook and most of the time they are just serving beer or vodka &
> cranberry drinks._

I literally don't understand why opening a beer warrants a (basically
mandatory) $1 dollar tip. I've come to viewing it as essentially a bribe for
future service, which has caused it to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

------
Fuzzwah
I'm an Aussie living in Phoenix. I try not to get too opinionated about
whether a tipping culture is better or worse.

I see comments here from Americans who say that when they eat out in other
countries they're amazed at the poor service and figure this must be because
of no tipping. Back home in Australia if a restaurant doesn't deliver good
service they'll go broke. So most places I ever ate at back home had (what I
would call) good to great service. This isn't to say I didn't receive some
very rare bad service.

Here in the US I've had about a similar experience. Mostly good to great
service, and some rare bad service.

The one big difference I've noticed is that here in the US (and I believe this
is because of the tipping culture) I've had to "suffer" through "overly
attentive" service. When the server constantly asks if everything is
satisfactory, constantly topping up / refilling drinks and (I gather) thinking
that they're giving us excellent service....... But in reality they're just
infringing on our enjoyment of a night out.

------
apalmer
the tipping phenomenon only occurs because the resturant industry gamed the
system to legally pay their wait staff below minimum wage. So now I got to tip
the wait staff because you can legally pay them 4 bucks an hour? OK... Ohhh
and tip pools are illegal most places because why?, ohh yeah because
management consistently takes the wait staffs tips and takes a cut or
redistributes as they see fit to incentivize their business. so thats why its
illegal many places, so instead they call it a service charge to get around
the law AND take a cut or redistributes as management sees fit to incentivize
their business...

the whole reason for tipping is because management can pay the wait staff less
than minimum wage, cooks dont get tips because cooks cant legally be paid
lowball rates, so why is it good that this guy is STILL paying his wait staff
under minimum wage and then not allowing them to be tipped so he can
incentivize his other staff?

Why dont you just charge me for the food however much it takes to make your
business stay profitable and not force the customer to worry about the
details?

~~~
herge
Did you read the article? The writer states that waiters made 22$/hour, cooks
12 to 14, and dishwashers got about 10 when he brought in the system, all of
which was higher than their base pay before. Do you have proof that does
numbers went below minimum wage?

~~~
apalmer
\-- 'So, the two servers make a total of about $26/hour each, while everyone
else in the restaurant is stuck at $8/hour.'

the waiters would have made 26 dollars an hour under a tipping scheme instead
they make 22 dollars an hour under his scheme...

thats really all he is doing here, taking tip money from the waiters and
dividing it among the employees as he decides too... and thats fine EXCEPT why
doesnt he just put the menu prices up by whatever % he needs to and then run
his business how he sees fit? RIGHT because then he cant advertise those low
prices (on his menu). Why is that legal? ohh yeah because america has a
tipping culture for dining, and why is that? because wait staff is explicitly
exempt from wage laws to a large extent

i read the article, thought about it, looked at the numbers and applied
critical thinking, and came to the conclusion that this scheme benefits
management of the resturant more than anyone else

------
mcphilip
On a side note, if you have a waiter or waitress that you particularly like
and want to provide a tip that will not necessarily go into the tip pool, just
leave a cash tip. This gives the waiter the ability to choose how much of the
tip they report at the end of their shift.

Conversly, leave a tip on a credit card bill if you want to ensure that the
entire tip is subject to any tip pool.

~~~
patmcc
I usually tip by credit card to ensure it's reported to the IRS - serving is
an industry that needs to stop thinking of itself as above income tax law.

~~~
sehrope
I do the opposite and always leave tips in cash but not just to give a bonus
to the server (if they don't declare/share it).

It also makes it so that my receipts, credit charge email alerts, and monthly
bill all reconcile. Otherwise you can have a transcription error when the
server or restaurant owner misreads (or mistypes) the manually written tip
line of your receipt.

~~~
cosmie
>It also makes it so that my receipts, credit charge email alerts, and monthly
bill all reconcile. Otherwise you can have a transcription error when the
server or restaurant owner misreads (or mistypes) the manually written tip
line of your receipt.

To make sure it reconciles correctly, make sure you fill out the Total line
legibly/correctly, not the tip line. That's generally what systems have you
input at cash out, and they calculate the tip amount from that difference. The
vast majority of mistypes/misreads stem from the Total field being left blank
and the manager does the math on the fly, or the customer didn't do the math
right when they wrote in the Total (so they end up tipping $4.50 instead of
$3.50, or $1.50 instead of $2.50)[1].

[1]Restaurant manager for two years.

~~~
sehrope
I do that as well. It's a belt and suspenders approach.

Also, by leaving cash there's never any math involved either as the pre-tip
total is the final total.

------
jf22
While interesting I really don't like articles that are setup with entirely
hypothetical scenarios which are constrained in such a way to make the entire
premise seem more valid.

>if one job gets a $2/hour raise, that most likely means that another job will
have its wage reduced by $2/hour.

This statement right here sets up half of this posts argument here and isn't
realistic at all.

~~~
elemeno
As the article mentions, the margins on the restaurant business are slim
enough that the wage pool is effectively fixed - it's not a hypothetical
scenario, it's a practical constraint.

~~~
jf22
Wages/margins/costs/expenses are far more elastic than the zero sum game the
author presents.

If you need to pay somebody $2 more an hour the money can come from more
places. Increase a drink price, decrease tomato quality, steam clean every 3
weeks instead of 2, wash the bathroom yourself instead of hiring, call the
newspaper and ask for a reduced rate, etc etc etc.

~~~
Goronmon
_If you need to pay somebody $2 more an hour the money can come from more
places. Increase a drink price, decrease tomato quality, steam clean every 3
weeks instead of 2, wash the bathroom yourself instead of hiring, call the
newspaper and ask for a reduced rate, etc etc etc._

Of course, you are also assuming that decisions like these (aside from the
newspaper one) don't affect the revenue of the restaurant in the long run.

------
doorhammer
Seems like there are a lot of comments about whether or not tipping promotes
good or bad behavior from the servers. Seems pretty divided to me, opinion
wise.

I think that's part of what the article was saying. Regardless of whether or
not the server behavior was good or bad, the tipping culture created complex
and unnecessary social dynamics that were difficult to control in a
predictable, effective manner.

My take away is that tipping was an inelegant, overly complex solution, and
that simplifying it made the social context much easier to deal with, so that
the owner could produce consistent, high quality results.

After that point, I'd say that servers or employees that are good or bad
become the same issue you have with any other customer facing job. You address
it through culture, disciplinary action, ranking, scheduling, perks, reviews,
wage increases, or any number of other methods (I'm not endorsing any of those
specifically). The incentive structure becomes a job more or less just another
retail job.

------
wmt
Why not just up the prices and the wages instead of the sneaky service charge?
Is that too honest in the restaurant business?

------
bradleyjg
The blog post makes reference to a 9th Circuit case, Cumbie v Woody Woo[1] and
the Department of Labor policy purporting to overrule it.[2] The latter is
full of incredibly weak legal reasoning. It's so bad, I forced to wonder if
John Yoo[3] has taken a job with the Department of Labor. I'd go so far as to
say that a lawsuit filed on the basis outlined in the memo would be frivolous
and sanctionable.

[1]
[http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/02/23/08...](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/02/23/08-35718.pdf)

[2]
[http://www.dol.gov/whd/FieldBulletins/fab2012_2.htm](http://www.dol.gov/whd/FieldBulletins/fab2012_2.htm)

[3] The author of the infamous torture memos, that argued that it isn't
torture unless it's as painful as losing a major organ.

------
voidlogic
>This time, I wasn’t excited; I was terrified. If I didn’t learn to code, we
were done. I would have to crawl back into the world of finance.

I wonder if this is a dying breed? I think this is an interesting
juxtaposition to the kid graduating HS who goes on to:

    
    
      1. Dual major in business and C-S when they do their undergrad
      2. Intern at big corps while in school (make $15-20/hr and have no debt)
      3. Work at a startup or two for 2-3 years after graduating
      4. Start their own startup.
    

I run into more and more kids with the above game plan and it seems so much
more solid to me. I realize folks who already have careers can't do the above,
but as the number of young people who have done the above increases I wonder
how it will change the game.

~~~
CanSpice
You're in the wrong story. You want this one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6127246](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6127246)

------
joosters
Notice that amongst all the discussion of money and wages, one thing that is
completely avoided is any thought of operating on a lower profit margin. All
the hand-wringing about poorly paid staff, but never once any thought about
taking less money for himself to aid their plight!

~~~
milesskorpen
Did you read the top of the article? He opened with a section about how hard
it is to actually reduce profit because many/most places don't have any! I
agree that in many industries, this is an option, but I don't think most
restaurant owners are rolling in cash.

~~~
joosters
He doesn't go into much detail about his quoted 4% margin. Is this the average
including all unprofitable restaurants? If so, then they will drag down the
average of all the others, and there's no point worrying about the wage
structure of a restaurant that is doomed to go out of business as it is losing
money.

If we sampled just the restaurants who were viable, profitable concerns, or
simply those that had been around longer than (say) a year, you'd find that
the average profit margin would be much higher.

------
fetbaffe
Only the last paragraph was about tipping, the rest about how silly
legislation get silly effects.

------
goatforce5
The rather excellent Fabarnak in Toronto doesn't accept tips.

Their 'tip jar' next to the register has a big sign that says something like
"Fabarnak staff are paid a good wage. Any money left will be donated to the
519 [community centre]", which Fabarnak is housed in and is generally
affiliated with. I think their is a similar message on the bottom of the menus
if you choose to pay by card at your table.

The food is excellent, and the service is always pleasant. The lack of tips
doesn't seem to be upsetting their staff.

[http://www.yelp.ca/biz/fabarnak-restaurant-and-catering-
toro...](http://www.yelp.ca/biz/fabarnak-restaurant-and-catering-toronto)

------
makerops
Does anyone know the reason as to why this is true:

"However, to give the tip money to every worker would be illegal. The law is
historically very clear — the $220 in tips belongs to the two servers only,
and cannot be distributed to any other employees." ?

~~~
Scorponok
I would assume to stop the restaurant owner/manager taking some (or all) of
the tips.

~~~
makerops
I don't think that is valid reasoning. I would bet you are probably right, as
that is "why", but I see no reason why an owner shouldn't be prevented from
gathering up all the tips, and distributing them to the staff in any way they
please (provided it is above the min wage).

------
DanielStraight
Is there an inherent disconnect in being anti-tipping and pro-pay-what-you-
will? How is a restaurant letting you pick your own price for service with the
expectation that you will be fair different from a humble bundle letting you
pick your own price with the expectation that you will be fair?

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative, I'm genuinely wondering. I'm
pretty anti-tipping and pro-pay-what-you-will myself, and I'm just wondering
if I'm fooling myself now.

------
frogpelt
It sounds like profit sharing may also be a solution to the inequity of wages
between the back-of-the-house and the servers.

It seems to me that if everyone in the restaurant (or perhaps just those in
the kitchen) made a percentage of the profits of the restaurant, that
productivity would increase all around and the sidebar between the kitchen and
the servers wouldn't carry nearly as much weight.

Is profit sharing prevented by regulation?

------
kbenson
Freakonomics[1] did a show on tipping. There's a few different arguments
against it presented, but I find the discrimination one particularly
interesting.

    
    
      [1]: http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/06/03/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

------
simonebrunozzi
I know I'm almost OT, but let's consider for a moment the topic of "tipping
taxi drivers". I find it completely unfair to tip cab drivers, and yet, they
give it for granted it all to time. The couple of times I tipped less then
expected I had to meet angry reactions.

------
jetru
Not to mention that there have been some studies showing that tipping is
discriminatory.

[http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/customer_racial_discrimin...](http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/customer_racial_discrimination10-30-06.pdf)

------
dsego
Slightly relevant scene from Reservoir dogs
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38).

------
mattkirkland
The Linkery was in my neighborhood in San Diego. It was a great place, and
really influential in revitalizing a culture of good food in that area of SD.

------
fatjokes
I found this enjoyable enough to read that now I want to go to the restaurant.
Too bad I don't live in SD.

------
_pmf_
When a very rich guy tries to improve the situation of quite poor people, one
should be very, very careful.

------
Yourfags
Another thing after reading these comments, so many people practically worship
waiters? Honestly, what? They're servants, they bring you food, they clean up
messes, they're there to fix things when they go wrong, not spend their every
moment trying to decide whether to shine your shoe or flip you off; It's like
they're celebrities or athletes or something from the way some people talk
about how they need tips or they'll start doing this or that thing to make
your stay unpleasant. They have a job, if they don't do it well, they should
lose it, they have a fixed income, if you don't want to pay it, you should
know ahead of time what it's going to be and be able to decide whether to eat
there or not, not judging after the meal.

~~~
ArtDev
In most establishments its the bussers that clean up the messes and many wait
staff won't share tips.

------
Yourfags
I really like this article, he raises points I hadn't thought about. As
someone who is American and works in a restaurant, I still think it's a
terrible system. Waiters do not do more or better work than the rest of the
staff, they are just like everyone else and the fact that they get paid double
or triple their coworkers is insane. It's certainly not about their attitude,
because people who get paid $8/hr behave just as well (or often do because
it's their job and they don't want to lose it), and waiters are just as often
rude and inattentive. It mystifies me really that restaurants in 2013 havn't
been relegated to the same model every other business follows, just tell me
the price and be done with it; tipping is a terrible system.

~~~
mml
Hear hear. When I was cooking (at a fancy place) years ago, the waitstaff used
to walk home with $500 in (unlikely to be declared) cash after a 4 hour shift
on a good night. I walked home with $90, for my 11 hours of humping shit, and
paid taxes on every penny. cooking sucks. hard. still miss it though.

