
Software Programmers Should Never Have Dress Codes - edw519
http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/08/software-developers-should-never-have.html
======
DanielBMarkham
_There's no justification for a dress code policy in this day and age if you
view the primary function of a software developer to be the development of
software._

I think dress codes are idiotic in most cases, but I understand them. This
author does not.

Programmers always want their job to be slinging code in a cave somewhere
where people slide a pizza and a list of features under a door and pure
beautiful code comes out on a regular basis.

It never works that way, however. Programmers are social creatures, like it or
not, and that means that all kinds of social stuff is part of working with
other people. Things like dress codes, manners, good body hygiene,
interviewing, and conflict resolution skills are just as critical as hacking
skills.

I don't think dress codes help that much, but I understand why companies have
them. I always say that it's the _people_ that is so critical in this work.
Everybody wants to focus on the technology, but that's a very, very small part
of it.

~~~
KirkWylie
No, I actually think most programmers don't want the old-skool Microsoft
approach of not emerging from their private offices more than once a week. I
honestly believe that most programmers are social creatures just like any
other human being, which explains why we're so active in online discussions of
all forms.

I think you're right in that soft skills are massively important to working in
any large organization, and for any organization where you're developing
software for in-house users (like big banks). Communication, conflict
resolution, good working habits (like good body hygiene), these are all
critical parts of being effective in your job not just as a programmer, but as
a member of a software development organization.

I just don't see "what clothes you're wearing" as factoring into that
equation.

~~~
krschultz
Power. In a company where the programmers are not making the product, I
wouldn't want to go to a meeting with the guy giving the specs underdressed.
It marginalizes you even more. The guys in the suits view the programmers as
support, them showing up in professional attire and you dressed like their 16
year old son won't help the matter.

I would say slacks and a button down shit, with no tie is fine. I think
wearing a tie to work is silly at this point, but t-shirts/shorts/flip flops
at a place where others are dressed up makes you seems lower on the totem
pole.

That said, I work at a startup where everyone wears t-shirts and flip flops,
so what do I know?

~~~
KirkWylie
If you work in an environment that views programmers purely as a cost of
business, and doesn't value their input, you've found a bad environment.

The best firms that make massive use of software view their programmers as a
key member of the team, because they know that they can't do their jobs
without them. And some would argue that getting respect DESPITE your attire is
the bigger indicator of power.

That being said, "I have to wear a suit because I have to meet with customers;
therefore everybody else has to suffer" isn't a particularly compelling
argument.

~~~
warfangle
I can't vote you up enough, for that first sentence.

Most likely not representative of places that require a dress code, but an
anecdote nonetheless:

My first full-time job after dropping out of college - and moving 600 miles
away from friends, family: pretty much every one I knew - was at a small (~100
employee) direct marketing firm building landing pages in a dingy office.

They required slacks and a tie every day except Friday - when The Powers That
Be deemed it good for morale to allow us to wear a polo shirt. Everyone was
required to follow the code - from the designers building ads to the
salespeople cold-calling universities.

It was simple work, and I yearned to be promoted to the actual development
group - they got to work in PHP and C++, while I was stuck with plain old
HTML, CSS, and a smattering of JavaScript. Until I found out what kind of code
was responsible for a majority of the company's revenue. One of their
salespeople had apparently picked up a PHP book quite a while ago, and
suggested to management that they move away from cardpacks and start
generating leads online. He was crafty, and made them sign a document saying
the code was owned solely by him. He wrote the software that drove the lead
generation platform, and a few months later quit. They hired him back at twice
the salary to come in once a week as a consultant to fix bugs.

And bugs a plenty there were. Of course, the three developers in the next pod
weren't allowed to touch the Holy Grail of Lead Generation. It was owned by
the contractor. There were severe, showstopping bugs cropping up nearly weekly
while I was there - bugs that would cause clients to drop us. And that was
once I came on board - they'd been using the same PHP file for the previous 7
years or so. And the contractor would always tell us that it was our (the
designers) fault for corrupted lead data.

One of the developers in the next pod found a security hole in the server one
day, and grabbed a copy of the php file. All 14,000 lines of nested if blocks
that it was. Every "bug fix" was simply a switch at the bottom of the file,
with one case for each of the accounts that ended up having bugs.

Every time we suggested ways of making the process of getting a campaign out
the door faster and more efficient, management would tell us: "OK, if you want
it done - come in on the weekend." The CTO couldn't understand what an API
was.

I haven't worked at a place that required a tie for any of the employees since
then. When it comes to small businesses, at least - from this experience and
several of my acquaintances' - if there's a dress code, run very, very far
away. It's usually an indicator that you're expected to be a cog in the
machine - not a curator of the machine.

(The direct marketing firm was bought out by a competitor about three months
after I left, who had even worse lead generation software. It folded six
months later).

------
CarolynM
Oh come on, programmers aren't special. (I know, I am one). Clothes are
communication. You dress to a minimal standard to show respect for others, and
to communicate "seriousness". Sometimes, you have to spell the standard out
out. I have worked with people who wear torn or worn out t-shirts and
similarly worn out shorts. It turns off some potential employees and customers
who catch a glimpse of them - fair or not.

Sure, it's a little silly to insist on suits for someone crawling on the floor
(I still remember in incident with a skirt, an awkward cable, and a customer
tour coming in at the wrong moment). But if you work in an industry where it's
the standard, how hard is it to leave a jacket and tie at work in case of
meetings? Really...

~~~
kingkongrevenge
What I really don't get is these people who seem to WANT to look like shit. We
don't have a dress code here. I could easily wear jeans over half the time.
But I don't and nobody else does because it looks horrible. Personally, I find
being surrounded by well dressed people a substantial workplace selling point.

Do you have any idea how juvenile and tasteless you look in cheap jeans and
sneakers? Do you realize how much dramatically better you look with proper
shoes and well cut wool pants? To give up that advantage just indicates idiocy
to me.

~~~
msluyter
Wool? That's a dirty word here in 100 degree+ Austin, TX. Otherwise, matters
of style/taste are subjective, or, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Pretty much everyone in our office wears jeans and, _shrug_ , it just doesn't
seem to have any negative impact that I can observe.

~~~
kingkongrevenge
Summer weight wool is cooler than cotton.

------
gcheong
Interesting take on this from Hamming's essay "You and Your Research"
(<http://paulgraham.com/hamming.html>):

Another personality defect is ego assertion and I'll speak in this case of my
own experience. I came from Los Alamos and in the early days I was using a
machine in New York at 590 Madison Avenue where we merely rented time. I was
still dressing in western clothes, big slash pockets, a bolo and all those
things. I vaguely noticed that I was not getting as good service as other
people. So I set out to measure. You came in and you waited for your turn; I
felt I was not getting a fair deal. I said to myself, ``Why? No Vice President
at IBM said, `Give Hamming a bad time'. It is the secretaries at the bottom
who are doing this. When a slot appears, they'll rush to find someone to slip
in, but they go out and find somebody else. Now, why? I haven't mistreated
them.'' Answer, I wasn't dressing the way they felt somebody in that situation
should. It came down to just that - I wasn't dressing properly. I had to make
the decision - was I going to assert my ego and dress the way I wanted to and
have it steadily drain my effort from my professional life, or was I going to
appear to conform better? I decided I would make an effort to appear to
conform properly. The moment I did, I got much better service. And now, as an
old colorful character, I get better service than other people.

You should dress according to the expectations of the audience spoken to. If I
am going to give an address at the MIT computer center, I dress with a bolo
and an old corduroy jacket or something else. I know enough not to let my
clothes, my appearance, my manners get in the way of what I care about. An
enormous number of scientists feel they must assert their ego and do their
thing their way. They have got to be able to do this, that, or the other
thing, and they pay a steady price.

------
eguanlao
I do not think dress codes are "idiotic." I understand why they exist for
companies and organisations. I went to an all-boys Catholic school in Sydney,
Australia, and we wore navy blazers, ties, and polished shoes. It was about
respect and reputation. I get this. I see this everywhere, in every country.
I'd rather see well-dressed people than see slobs. I'd rather look at beauty
than ugly. I'd rather smell a pleasant scent than an unpleasant odour. Hey,
that's just me.

Now, living in the inelegant U.S., I am a programmer who works in companies
with no dress codes, but chooses to wear bespoke suits, sport jackets, and the
occasional tie and/or hanky in the jacket's breast pocket... because I love
clothing, grooming and elegant style. I have always loved these things, ever
since I was a kid.

I understand that programming and dressing well is a rare combination, and I
get flak for it from the men once in a while, but the women like it. Hmmm... I
wonder why. ;-)

~~~
donw
Do keep in mind that one of the strengths of the U.S. is its overall lack of
refinement; culturally, we idolize elegance, but respect scrapiness. More
refined cultures tend to smack down imperfections, which is why a lot of
start-ups happen outside of the Old World.

I also love suits and bespoke clothing (having a custom-tailored shirt makes
such a difference), but I understand why a lot of people don't -- it's
expensive, and a chore to deal with all the time.

Speaking of which, I need to get my shirts pressed...

~~~
eguanlao
Americans do not idolise elegance. The definition of "idolise," according to
the Oxford dictionary, is to "revere or love greatly or excessively." We do
not see this idolisation of elegance in the way Americans dress and, most
importantly, in the way Americans respond to dressing well, dress codes, and
well-dressed people.

------
jswinghammer
I totally agree that dress codes are sort of silly but it's hard to turn down
a job if you need one. I have a family that I need to look after and I can't
really afford to put my preferences ahead of them having a nice place to live
in and eating. I might turn down the offer if the economy was better but if I
had to get a job and a financial services company offered me a job and I felt
like my options were limited I'd have no choice but to take it. I'd leave that
job at my first opportunity in all likelihood because I don't like dress codes
much at all. It's possible though that the job is great apart from that silly
policy so maybe it'd be worth putting up with for other reasons.

My mom is a CPA and she asked me why programmers always wanted to wear jeans
and a t-shirt. The only reason I gave to her that made sense to her was that
it's a culture thing.

~~~
KirkWylie
Actually, you've hit the nail on the head as to why I ended up at Big Bank B
wearing "business casual" in the first place: I got caught up in one of the
mass casualties of the Credit Crunch, and I needed to support my family, and
they were hiring. It's totally understandable. Still a stupid policy on the
part of the employer though.

------
pseale
Takeaways from this article:

* (assumption that primary job of corporate software developer is to develop software)

* Programmers are not soldiers, so military attitudes to management don't apply

* Big Bank management of software developers is poor

* Dress code correlates with command/control type management structure, which is undesirable, so dress code is therefore an indicator of an undesirable job.

* Due to this correlation, you should never accept a job with a dress code.

I don't like these types of op-ed pieces and yet I still read them.
Something's wrong with me.

------
edw519
Seems at odds with this recent post, "The Seven Vices of Highly Creative
People"

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=744053>

One those vices was dressing well. Who would have thought it.

~~~
KirkWylie
FWIW, I'd say I dress well, just casually.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
This is an excellent point that I'm amazed no one has made. It's entirely
possible to dress very well but without wearing a suit/blazer/wool pants, etc.
There are tasteful, well tailored, yet casual clothes all over the place.

A slob in a suit is still a slob.

~~~
martinp
Very true. I'm not even sure I would trust a coder in a suit and tie..

~~~
jff
That's rather judgmental of you... I thought the whole point being driven by
every crunchy, sandals-wearing startupmeister here was that clothes don't
matter. How bigoted to immediately dismiss someone for dressing differently.

------
CWuestefeld
It can't be denied that there is a significant chunk of people for whom more
casual dress is important. This might be due to perceived comfort, or perhaps
the expense of the fancy dress and its maintenance. Whatever the reason,
enforcing a dress code imposes a cost on employees, both financially and in
some cases emotionally.

In an age of tight money, I would expect that more firms would find this a way
to save on employment expenses. Other things being equal, at the margin they'd
be able to attract better talent for equal benefits. Or, conversely, they'd be
able to attract equal talent while spending slightly less on benefits.

Thus, allowing casual dress can be a money saver for companies, with no real
cost to implementing it.

Several posts in this thread assert that "dressing up" is a matter of respect
for one's coworkers. I don't see why this is so. Certainly, observing hygiene
and grooming habits so as not to be _offensive_ fits into this framework. And
certain ritualized situations (weddings, funerals, proms) demand it. But I
fail to see how dress fits into the more general case.

Indeed, it seems to me that in what we like to think is a diverse, open-
minded, tolerant society, that the real act of respect would be to look deeper
at a person than just clothes. It's in the mind of the viewer, not the wearer.

------
hughprime
It's important to note that even jobs without dress codes usually wind up
having some sort of unofficial dress code. I personally would love to show up
to work every day in a suit, but I can't really do that because my boss and
all my coworkers are showing up in t-shirts (I work in academia).

Incidentally, the temptation of being able to wear a suit every day is one of
the things that nearly drove me from physics into quant finance.

~~~
iron_ball
Yeah, we shouldn't forget that a well-fitting suit can look _really sharp_. It
can be a status marker (or status illusion), its default tailoring makes you
look taller and thinner, the jacket provides convenient extra pockets (this is
important to me), and if it has good materials it can be as comfortable as
anything.

------
mickt
There's dress codes, and there's dress codes. I think most institutions should
have some form of dress code. For example: Do I really have to look at
someone's hairy legs or toes or arse when they sit to close to me in a
meeting? Do I have to listen to the flip-flops someone is wearing as they walk
past my office 20 times in 10 minutes? Do I really need cleavage distracting
me all day?

So, maybe some minimal dress code makes sense and can prevent embarassing
situations or situations where other's are made uncomfortable by someone
else's clothes (or lack of them).

But, having to wear a suit & tie everyday, or khakis & shirt/polo shirt, no
thanks.

------
radley
I think the goal is being good enough that nobody can tell you what to wear.

------
bluedanieru
Another thing to keep in mind if you are working at, or considering working
at, a bank or other financial institution is that the business basically hates
their IT department. Not personally of course, but rather it seems to be
viewed as very peripheral to their core business (of what, scamming people out
of their savings and cashing large checks from their respective national
governments?). Even as algorithmic trading becomes more important to their
bottom line, tech seems to be a pain in the ass and something to think about
as little as possible for a lot of people. Software developers seem lower on
the totem pole than most, as well, though that might be bias on my part.

I have only worked for Japanese banks, so YMMV, but this seems to be the case
even for the foreign guys pulled from overseas institutions, of whom we've got
a lot.

~~~
KirkWylie
Really? If you decide to move to London or New York, I have a number of very
tech friendly financial institutions I could introduce you to. And anybody
attempting to do algo trading without A-list technical talent will soon find
that they can't keep up.

------
mrfish
I always dress to the level of the CEO. If he's looking scruffy, I make sure I
look a bit better than that. If he's in suites, that's what I wear. Besides I
hate to tell you this but looks are what people judge you on and the guy in
the suite or even long sleeve shirt is going to have more weight than the
t-shirt guy. It's just reality.

