
Developments in tech in Toronto over the past seven years - salbowski
https://blog.brainstation.io/how-toronto-became-a-global-tech-leader-in-7-years/
======
kirbypineapple
The wages in Toronto are laughable. In the praries it's possible to make maybe
10 to 20k less than Toronto salaries but the houses are half the price.

~~~
adriand
These conversations, which appear every time a post appears on HN that talks
about what a great place Toronto is (along with many other places in Canada),
make me sad.

There is so much more to life than money.

~~~
jgh
Sure but Toronto is expensive and they pay isn't very good considering. If it
were people lamenting only being paid $300k instead of $400k then we could be
like "it's just money!" but I heard when I was there a few months back
CAD$120k is pretty typical for a senior dev, which is roughly $90k USD, and
the housing and whatnot isn't all that much cheaper than in big US cities.

~~~
nasalgoat
I would go as far to say that $120K is exceptionally _high_ for a senior dev
and in fact $100K is an upper boundary.

~~~
apercu
As I mentioned elsewhere, it depends on what you consider a "senior" dev. A
couple years of experience _does not_ make you a senior.

The upper boundary for an intermediate in Toronto is certainly $90-95k.

------
apercu
I see these posts a lot lately. I've worked in Chicago, Madison, Palo Alto,
Mountain View, Des Moines, Hopewell New Jersey and Toronto.

A few points: A "senior" dev in Toronto would be someone with 8-10 years of
experience. They can easily make 120+. I've hired many of them. Very few
organizations in the GTA consider someone with 2-4 years a "senior", and those
people will be lucky to make 90k. That make the COL in the GTA difficult.

If you truly are an amazing developer and you can't get a high salary in the
GTA, get in touch.

Also, it would be interesting to see the ages of people who post. When I was
in my 20's I'm sure I would have stayed in the Bay area if salaries were as
good as they are now. But there really wasn't a _huge_ disparity in wages in
the late 90's/Early 2000's between SV and elsewhere. I likely would have left
the Bay area in my 30's though. And moving to Canada is one of the best
decisions I feel I have ever made, especially considering the last 2 years.

EDIT: As a side note, I think outside of SV, ALL tech salaries (and all other
industries)are too low and have been stagnant for the most part for a decade.

------
canada_dry
As a Canadian tech guy who travels to Silicon Valley and Seattle fairly
frequently the impression that most US techies have is that Toronto is an
awesome place to live, but it is not (yet) a magnet for top talent.

There are many amazing startups at any given moment in Toronto... but many of
the folks involved have their sights set on FANG.

~~~
paulie_a
I am not familiar with Toronto personally but it would have one huge benefit
over silicon valley...you don't have to live in silicon valley.

Edit: I'd prefer Siberia over sv, there is a reason talented people are
getting the hell out of there and many major companies are building huge
offices elsewhere.

~~~
abrichr
What is the reason?

~~~
paulie_a
Cost of living/lack of decent housing, low quality transportation and quite
frankly the snobbery of SV to name a few.

------
Apocryphon
Is this truly significant, or is it spin to sell a city? Not to be harsh, but
I've read the accounts of Canadian expats on the comparatively low wages back
home. Not SF low, but low even compared to other cities in the U.S.

~~~
devoply
In Canada, salaries for tech seem to normally max out around 100k for
developers (with exceptions for working for big US/multinational companies
like Amazon, MSFT, etc.). Even 80k is pretty common for senior developers...
In Canadian dollars. So around 80k USD is max a Canadian developer can expect
to make other than a few unusual cases thrown in there which might go as high
as 130k CAD so around 100k USD is a stellar Canadian development salary. If
you compare this to how H1B workers are paid in the US, it's around those
sorts of rates. I don't see it improving any time soon because the revenue
that this work generates is not 10x multiples like you see in the US. Canada
does not have the VC culture to support a tech culture that produces 100s of
millions to billions in returns. If US companies come looking for remote
workers they are looking to pay Canadian rates and save money that way.

~~~
tlear
100k? maybe 5-6 years ago, it is not the case anymore at all. I dont what the
max is but 140-150 is no that unusual(for senior people obviously)

~~~
jandrewrogers
That may be because that is about US$100k at the current exchange rates. A
cynic would say that the comp has only gone up because the exchange rate has,
since tech tends to be denominated in USD.

------
pards
I've been living and working in Toronto since 2003, and can attest that it
truly is a fantastic city to live in.

Most of the senior developers I know in Toronto work as independent
contractors for large enterprises because they can get paid significantly more
than the base salaries mentioned here. Contractor rates rival Silicon Valley
salaries.

The downside of independent contracting is that you forgo sick pay, holiday
pay, and employee-sponsored perks like extended health care. However, Ontario
has an excellent public health system that covers all residents so the need
for additional health benefits is questionable.

~~~
qcpydev
Hi, I'm a contractor in Québec City work as a Business analyst. Can you tell
me what is the hourly rate in Toronto ? And how do you find your clients ?
It's my first year of working as a contractor. Thanks.

~~~
apercu
Depends on your experience/expertise. I typically see vast ranges with more
junior people charging $50/hr, intermediates at $80/hr, and seniors (people
with decades of business experience) between $100-180/hr.

I sub out work now and then, I'll add an email address to my profile. I'd like
to know your skill sets.

~~~
qcpydev
Oh thanks for your reply. Here in Québec city consulting companies charge
70-75 for gov contracting, and in insurances companies you can get 80-100 per
hour. Yes add your e-mail adress, we can take the discussion further :)

~~~
apercu
Done.

~~~
toto123456
Hi, sorry for the late reply, that's my other account, I can't see your e-mail
on your profile. Thanks.

~~~
apercu
Sorry, check now.

------
bungie4
I'm from Toronto. Congrats to Toronto for its accomplishments.

It should be realized that their is a great standard of living available
outside of major tech centers all across the country(s). The opportunity is
different, but the jobs do exist. I'd argue that their is far more opportunity
outside of tech centers than within. A tech center addresses the issue of
distribution. More specifically, of concentration. Having a small cluster of a
100 or so tech businesses conveniently located pales in comparison to the 10's
of thousands scatter across the corporate landscape.

Its myopic to measure 'success' with such a short term metric. My measure of
success is different at a wholesale level from my 20's to my 40's. Toronto is
fantastic for those less than 30. Tons to see and do, easy access to
everything. Flash forward 20 years with a family and kids and it's not so
attractive anymore. What were once benefits are now become detriments.

That being said, today is my last day at work in my less than 150K population
town. I start a new job in 2 weeks, +$$, +benefits etc. Same scenario, smaller
location. My compensation is is within striking distance of the wages in
Toronto's tech center. But without the heavy cost of accommodations (all else
being marginally cheaper) but more importantly, I'm 5 minutes from a entire
world of green space and the crushing humanity that is found in all major
centers, Toronto included.

Enjoy your success T.O. :D

~~~
microcolonel
As a Canadian-U.S. dual citizen who has spent my whole life in Canada, and
most of it in Toronto, I honestly can't justify settling down in Ontario. The
taxes are high and complicated, the services are subpar (and I don't use most
of them), and Canada largely lacks the civil rights stability enjoyed in the
U.S. under the Constitution (as currently amended and interpreted),
particularly regarding freedom of speech and the bounds of unlawful search.

~~~
cam3ham
lolwat

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.

------
adamgravitis
Toronto’s tech talent is keen... but relatively green. Since few companies
have had to deal with scaling networks, users and data to the same magnitude
as is common with Valley companies, it’s almost impossible to find senior
engineers worthy of the title. Plenty of options for junior and intermediate,
though.

~~~
ninjakeyboard
Yeah. I'm struggling to find really solid engineers in the city. I need really
experienced people and I can't find anyone. Even the most sr consultants and
contractors have a lot of gaps and don't understand the real edge cases that
appear in systems.

I was lucky enough to learn from a team as we went through a google
acquisition and watch and learn as the technology was scaled in both the
context of a startup, and later inside Google. I was the whitebelt in the back
of the room but that experience of working in that team was the most valuable
experience I could have ever hoped for and I still regularly mail the people
that I absorbed from to let them know how grateful I am to have taken me along
on that journey. It's not a common experience but that completely humbled me
and fixed my dunning-kruger arrogant ass.

~~~
grigory
Jumping into a project with a truly world-class team is a very humbling
experience, and certainly something to seek out in one's career!

------
lucidone
Why live in Toronto for a 90k CAD salary when I can live close to Waterloo and
get an 80k CAD salary? Perhaps I'm very lucky, but it goes a lot farther.

~~~
dear
You can live in Waterloo and work in Toronto. Commute by greyhound daily. I
know people who do that for years.

------
raverbashing
No, Toronto isn't a "Global tech leader"

A lot of startups, but a significant amount seem very "gimmicky". (Probably
less than SV, but it seems there are less companies that "started up" then
grew to a significant size). That or you can work for the Megacorps, usually
in the suburbs in their lifeless campuses.

Not to mention the salaries.

Also Canada tech companies in general seems to use less open source than USA
or Europe.

~~~
cam3ham
Ecobee, WealthSimple, Shopify,

~~~
raverbashing
I'd say Shopify is an exception (and it started in Ottawa)

I hadn't heard about the other two

------
cam3ham
I'm from Toronto but did 3 year stint in SF and then a 4 year stint in NYC. I
moved back to Toronto last year to purchase and settle into my home base. Love
it here.

These comments are hilarious and so typical of Toronto - there is a reason
it's called the "screwface capital" of the world and I think it really rings
true.

------
se30b
Those Mirvish+Gehry tower plans look hideous. How did such a monstrosity get
approved? What an absolute embarrassment for Toronto, lol.

