

Is My Electric Bicycle Lame? - monkeygrinder
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/08/electric-bicycle-lame.php/

======
seldo
The bike shop employee's attitude sounds very familiar. If serious cyclists
want more people to get on bikes, they need to put some effort into making
cycling more welcoming to newbies.

I live in San Francisco, and about a month ago I decided to buy a bike, the
first time I'd bought a bicycle. I know how to ride a bike, but I am in all
other ways a noob -- I've never owned a bike with gears (the last time I had a
bike I was 12), know nothing about road bikes vs. mountain bikes vs. hybrids,
etc.. Surely, in a city as self-consciously eco-friendly as San Francisco, I
could find a bike store full of earnest, well-meaning hippies to point me in
the right direction for planet-saving happiness, preferably on a budget?

No such luck. I walked into store after store to be greeted with barely-
disguised contempt as I explained I had no idea what I wanted, just "a bike to
ride around on", which turned into sneers of disgust when I said that I wanted
to spend less than $500 on it.

Even co-workers who bike were of little help. One described buying a bike for
less than $500 as "like buying a netbook". I countered that a netbook was a
great analogy, as I wasn't going to be commuting on the bike, just riding it
every so often, the cycling of equivalent of "just checking my email".

Eventually I got my bike (at Valencia Cyclery) and I'm enjoying it very much,
but it's easy to see how people can be put off. Any cycling is better than no
cycling, and "bike people" need to get over themselves and be more welcoming
to the new and clueless.

~~~
AGorilla
Why would serious cyclists want more people to get on bikes?

~~~
jules
For example because it makes traffic more cyclist friendly if there are more
cyclists. And generally people want other people to use what they're using
(e.g. programming languages, text editors).

~~~
potatolicious
> And generally people want other people to use what they're using (e.g.
> programming languages, text editors).

Well, I think in this case you can compare the cycling community (in some
places) to the Ruby community. They want everyone to ride fixies (or whatever
the trend du jour would be), and if you dare suggest that your needs are
better satisfied by some other solution, they will tear you apart with great
enthusiasm.

------
frankus
With a not too outlandish set of assumptions, the environmental footprint of
an electric cyclist is smaller than that of an acoustic cyclist. Unless you're
some kind of raw-food vegan:

<http://ebikes.ca/sustainability/Ebike_Energy.pdf>

The potential hole in the reasoning is the assumption that a human-powered
cyclist switching to electric would start eating less.

In either case the environmental footprint compared with driving is so
miniscule that you're really splitting hairs.

~~~
seldo
I love, love that they decided to analyze the human in terms of being a really
inefficient battery. Hopefully when the machines build the Matrix they will
consult this as a reference.

------
tjic
> _"Do you really feel like you need a motor to help you pedal?"_

Not all environmentalists are ideologues, but many are (not to say that other
points of view are better or worse in this regard). Much of the problem that I
have with left-wing ideology is that people look at things as MORAL or
RELIGIOUS issues instead of ENGINEERING issues.

It's like Clay Shirky said about online communities [
<http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html> ]: one of their purposes is
the veneration of the religious viewpoint.

"Hey, I've got an electric bike!"

"That's not a REAL bike; it sucks; you suck."

"Yeah, but it uses 1% of the power of a car"

"That's not a REAL bike; it sucks; you suck."

"It's good for the environment"

"That's not a REAL bike; it sucks; you suck."

<sigh>

The reason that high school sucks [ <http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html> ]
is because it's filled with human beings, who care about "religious" issues an
in-group loyalty.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
That's not a problem with left-wing ideology. It's a problem with ideology.

------
danteembermage
At one point in my life I had grand plans build a flywheel into a four wheeled
bicycle. I could replicate regenerative breaking, I could spin up the flywheel
at stop lights, it was going to be great. I mentioned this idea to a civil
engineer friend of mine, who pointed out that I could probably get better
power density with a battery. When I realized I'd reinvented a heavier version
of the electric bike I wasn't so excited about the project.

~~~
aarongough
Well that all depends on how light the flywheel is and how fast it's spinning.

I'm sure a 1kg flywheel spinning at 20K RPM would hold plenty of power, and
it's certainly not too much extra weight.

That aside, I still agree that it's impractical :-p

~~~
evgen
Try to take a corner on that particular bike and you will get a short and
unpleasant lesson in angular momentum and the gyroscope effect...

~~~
Luc
Not if you keep it level enough, which should be feasible on a four-wheeler. I
mean, the gyrobus shows that it's not a infeasible concept - they still let
people ride it sometimes here in Antwerp, as a curiosity:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus>

------
sown
I didn't actually start to hate bicyclists and bicycling culture until I
became one.

They are one of the most fundamentalist group of people when it comes to two
wheeled bikes. I've met all kinds of tolerances but it seem to mostly lean
towards "not".

Any kind of suggestion about violating the ordained formula for a bicycle is
just inciting religious hatred. It usually goes like this:

Want to consider a shaft driven bicycle for easier mainteinence? THEY"RE
STUPID AND EXPENSIVE! Internal hub gearing? THEY'RE STUPID AND EXPENSIVE!
Electric motor? THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!

And if you're not wearing spandex and have the right gear, the right bike (or
at least the wrong one), you get looked down on again. I hate it.

~~~
Luc
This is SO MUCH a US phenomenon, though. It's so weird to hear talk about
bicycles like they're some kind of lifestyle choice, like they stand for
something. Sad to hear that, in the face of all the opposition against
bicycles and the poor infrastructure, there seems to be a bicycle culture
which goes against casual use.

Which reminds me of this classic: <http://www.ski-
epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/> ;)

------
zenlinux
I live in Portland, and bikes are huge here. The most common complaint I've
heard about electric bicycles is that they enable new, relatively unskilled
riders to wreak havoc in heavy bike-traffic situations. This mostly involves
complaints of passing too close to other riders.

<http://bikeportland.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2995>

This really isn't a problem with electric bicycles themselves, but with rider
education.

I will also say there is definitely a sense of smugness from some riders
against electric bicycles, but I'd say there are at least as many people who
support the concept and want to see more people out on bikes.

~~~
josefresco
Regular bikers tend to be somewhat snobby both towards other bikers, and any
other types of traffic they may encounter (walkers, rollerbladers, cars etc.)
So the fact that some Portlander-bikers are being annoyed isn't saying much,
and I doubt there's enough of them to be a problem.

------
dan_sim
I'm a biker and _I will never own a bike like that_, too proud I guess but...
I completly support people who are using electric bikes. I bike for two reason
: health and environment. If they are only in for the environment, it's more
than OK to me.

~~~
natrius
I think it's more about distance and sweat than not caring about health. If
you're in Austin (like the author and myself) you're not going to go more than
two miles in a reasonable amount of time without sweating, especially if
you're dealing with hills. For commuting, that _shouldn't_ really be an issue,
since any reasonable workplace should have some means of storing a bike and
changing clothes. For unreasonable workplaces and situations where sweating is
a dealbreaker (if you're going shopping for clothes and you're going to try
things on, please don't bike far), an electric bike seems like a good idea.

------
timwiseman
When I lived in a small town, I used my bicycle as my main mode of
transportation and I thought it was great, but I lived in a town that was
fairly cool most of the year and I only had to be in business casual, which
allowed button-up short sleeved and polo shirts.

I have to sympathize, if I had to show up in a suit, especially in a warmer
place, I would not have taken a standard bicycle. I probably would have gone
on to a car, so I think an electric bike is a good compromise.

------
chipsy
I'm pretty sure the battery->electric motor conversion is a more efficient use
of energy than the food->muscle->pedal conversion, so no, it's not lame.

~~~
natrius
Food is solar power except for transportation, so that isn't the appropriate
comparison.

~~~
evgen
You really don't know how food is produced, do you? Try reading up a bit on
the subject to see just how much energy is required to get a calorie of food
energy to your mouth (quick hint: the most commonly used forms of plant-ready
nitrogen fertilizer are almost completely derived from oil.)

~~~
natrius
Ok, I should've included more caveats. I meant that the calories you're
consuming are solar power, though there's definitely other energy involved.
The comparison is still invalid.

------
zasz
I am still somewhat new to the sport, but I consider myself a serious cyclist.
The kind of people who wear spandex versus the kind of people who just want to
commute are very different people, even if they're riding similar machines. I
do look down on people who ride electric bikes a little bit, because
personally, I feel like the extra exertion you're making on an acoustic bike
is part of what makes riding a bike so enjoyable in the first place. I like
riding because I know it's purely me that's making the bike go 20 mph, and I
actually enjoy going up hills and feeling exhausted at the top.

It's like the difference between getting a netbook just to check your email
and write documents, and building your own PC and installing Linux on it just
because you can and it's fun. A lot of the latter look down on the former, and
it's because the former have no idea what they're missing out on. It's not
very nice, but it's understandable.

------
tynman
I live in Utah, and drive a scooter-style ebike to work. See
(<http://www.utahebikes.com>) for an example. It's even one step further from
a bike because you don't actually have to pedal to make it run.

Some would argue this is one step further down the chain of laziness. I
contend that it opens up alternative transportation to a whole group of people
who wouldn't otherwise consider it. It's not as "granola" as an old used
bicycle that's already made up its carbon footprint, but it's a far cry better
than driving.

Plus, the extra cargo space of the scooter style makes it a lot nicer for
errands than a bicycle. I've ended up replacing 80% of my car trips with the
ebike.

------
ZeroGravitas
There's been similar reactions recently in the UK to the thought of
supermarkets selling cheap bikes. The people commenting apparently had no
ability to step outside themselves and consider the needs of others.

The uproar actually made me feel better in a way because I was glad to find
out that such reactions are not confined to the world of computer technology.
In IT I usually notice it in enthusiast reviews, were they basically state: if
this product is not targeted directly at me, then it is an abomination.

------
Huppie
Man, do I feel lucky when reading this article and your comments...

Hippies riding bikes? If you look carefully you might spot a few but since
over 60% of people here in the netherland use their bike at least three times
a week chances are you'll see almost every type of person riding a bike :)

Which reminds me of: <http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/>

------
noodle
this is only tangentially related to the article and i don't even know if this
is possible:

i'd love to see an attachment of some sort that you can install onto a bike
and can produce an output able to recharge laptops and cell phones. i couldn't
find anything with this capability based on a quick search.

~~~
David
Do you mean a wheel-generator attachment for a manpower bike, or an attachment
to borrow energy from an electric bike?

For a manpower bike, I think it would be terrifically underpowered or
terrifically difficult. As mentioned in a link from Luc, <http://www.ski-
epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/>, even the little headlights you stick on and
power with the tires make cycling _much_ harder and produce very little light.

Charging a laptop/cell off of that would be... a challenge. =P

Borrowing energy from the battery of an electric bike would be a different
story, but not all that helpful. Potentially useful if you stop at a coffee
shop or something on your commute, but other than that, I can't see what it
would do for you.

~~~
noodle
manpower. i agree it would be tough, but if we have devices that allow you to
recharge your cellphone with a device that uses walking as a power source
([http://www.livescience.com/technology/080207-people-
power.ht...](http://www.livescience.com/technology/080207-people-power.html)),
i think we can do something for a bike that could maybe produce a little more
juice.

~~~
khafra
David has it right (<http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html>). You
just can't generate that much power--his burst output is about enough to run a
desktop computer.

I researched this a while back because of an ingenious idea to decouple power
and pedalling speed by putting a pedalled generator, a supercap, and an
electric motor on a bicycle frame. Sadly, it would've been about 2x as heavy
as a normal electric bicycle, and 60% as efficient.

------
monkeygrinder
Just to clarify, this is just an interesting article I found. I'm not the
owner of an Electric bike. I have an old fashioned normal road bike. London is
about to roll out electric bikes throughout the capital

------
frankus
That depends if you're asking a garden-variety follower of the cyclic faith
(no), or a radical cyclist (yes).

------
cmars232
A lot less lame than a segway.

------
mmt
Yes, it's lame. The fallacy is clear:

 _I surely wasn’t going to drive a car to the alternative transit sessions_

~~~
khafra
Whatever the motivation, the result was unambiguous--it's not like he was
driving a Hummer H2 everywhere besides those sessions. There aren't many use
cases where an electric bicycle is better than an acoustic bicycle, but a
commute that's bikeable except for sweat production is one of them.

~~~
te_platt
Upvoted for using acoustic bicycle as the opposite of electric bicycle. As to
the article, the bike is lame if it doesn't do what he wants it to do
otherwise get over what other people think.

