
Malaysia will return contaminated plastic waste to the countries that shipped it - DoreenMichele
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/asia/malaysia-plastic-waste-return-intl/index.html
======
docker_up
This is a good thing. I had no idea we weren't recycling our plastic and just
shipping it across the world, only to get dumped in a forest or into the
ocean.

We need to stop producing so much plastic. We need laws to standardize
plastics so that only purely recyclable plastics exist and no more single-use
plastics, or compostable containers. Anything else should be banned.

I don't care if it runs some companies out of business because the costs are
too high. I would rather those companies fail than keep piling up with all
this sickening useless and ultimately poisonous garbage from single-use
plastics.

We should also make it illegal to ship our garbage outside of the country.
That will force us to deal with our own problems.

~~~
JulianMorrison
Also it seems likely at this point that the danger has been wildly
underestimated.

The rallying cry against plastic used to be that "it takes hundreds of years
to break down".

But now we know that when it breaks down, it gets _worse_. Microplastics are
suspected to be bioaccumulating, carrying poisons and bacteria, and possibly
could get into cells like asbestos. And the only way to dispose of the stuff
that won't eventually become microplastic is incineration - putting all that
carbon into the atmosphere, along with other unpleasant combustion products.

~~~
docker_up
Yes, as usual those of us that told us the risk was low or non-existent were
wrong again. How often do we have to be duped by so-called experts before we
realize that the "experts" have actually no idea how to calculate risk, and
that we can't rely on their "assurances"? It goes both ways, where scientists
told us that salt and high fat diets were causing heart disease and now both
of those have been walked back.

~~~
JulianMorrison
The experts were working with the facts as they were known at the time.
Microplastic wasn't obvious. Most things, when they break down, aren't
harmful. This isn't a problem of experts. This is a problem of hubristically
creating a never seen before material and assuming it would have no impact.

------
Waterluvian
The president of the Philippines recently threw a tantrum, threatening to
declare war on Canada if they didn't take back their garbage.

I dug into it and found that the president is completely justified in being
pissed off. A Canadian company shipped "recycling" which turned out to be
undisputable trash. Diapers and such.

What pisses me off is that I cannot find the name of this company anywhere. So
Canada is taking all the blame for some company that shipped them trash and
labeled it recycling.

~~~
linuxftw
If the agreement was Canada as a country ensures their recyclable exporters
will only export things that conform to some standard, then the burden would
be on Canada, yes.

But, what kind of bizarre world do we live in where we ship our trash to
overseas places to be 'recycled' ? It just doesn't make any sense. We are
exporting our waste and pollution to developing nations, those people are
probably facing much worse environmental conditions than those in the
developed world. It's truly despicable.

~~~
Waterluvian
Yeah that's a good point. It's unusual that the articles keep mentioning "a
Canadian company" but never names it. Maybe the agreement was at a national
level.

And yeah, it's absurd. I just moved somewhere in Ontario where every garbage
bag I put at the curbside costs $2. It's absolutely amazing to stand out on
garbage day and see just how little people have set out. The system works.

The recycling is still "free" but I would love to see the same happen.

~~~
mcny
> And yeah, it's absurd. I just moved somewhere in Ontario where every garbage
> bag I put at the curbside costs $2. It's absolutely amazing to stand out on
> garbage day and see just how little people have set out. The system works.

And I'll continue to advocate that nobody except perhaps the 1% should have
children in developed countries. A baby won't poop any less because trash
costs $2 a bag. From what I understand diapers by nature don't break down for
a long time.

~~~
jeromegv
Except there are re-usable diapers.

~~~
Thlom
Tried those. They work, but require some work. The diapers must be washed,
depending on the diaper type you might have to separate the fillings and the
diaper before washing and put together again afterwards. You also need to
insert a rice paper for the poop ...

It works, but it’s more work with them than with disposable diapers. We tried
reusable for our two first, but the last one we have only used disposable
diapers.

------
hammock
Malaysia's real estate is too valuable for them to be storing plastic trash on
it. The entire place is being aggressively deforested to make room for more
palm plantations and that's way more important than whatever they get for
taking in garbage.

~~~
A2017U1
Palm oil produces 4x more per hectare than nearly all other types of vegetable
oil.

There's no easy fix here, the developed world is basically saying don't cut
down your forests not long after we did so ourselves to make way for
agriculture. Not to mention lecturing a bunch of poor people to pay more for a
cooking staple.

Malaysians get quite defensive about their palm crops.

~~~
bunderbunder
It's also starting to look like palmitic acid has about the same
cardiovascular health effects as trans fatty acids. So, yeah, in the long run,
might as well leave the forests, because there's a good chance that the
current fad for palm oil isn't going to last all that long.

That said, 100% agreed that it's ridiculous that developed nations are tut-
tutting developing nations for economically exploiting their own resources,
not only in a way that mirrors what developed nations have already done, but
also in response to economic demand that largely originates from those same
developed nations.

~~~
diveanon
There is a growing movement in Malaysia to use healthier oils instead of palm
oil.

I have been to several restaurants in KL recently that are openly advertising
that they use no palm oil.

When traveling in Malaysia it is impossible to ignore the environmental impact
of these plantations and the local population are becoming more aware every
day.

------
stunt
This is really bad. Many are just dumping them into the ocean.

As long as it is cheaper to export waste, we are not going to build a better
recycling system or even better stop producing so much plastic.

East Asian countries should stop taking plastic waste.

------
apacheCamel
I have a lot of mixed feelings about this. I am happy that Malaysia is taking
a stand and is refusing to be a dumping ground for trash. I am sad that all of
this plastic is coming back to the US where I am honestly unsure on what they
will do with it. I am mad that it has gotten this far and there doesn't seem
to be an end in sight.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
They’ll just incinerate it, which is probably what they should have done in
the first place. Companies in third world countries bidding unrealistically
low for recycling contracts has made recycling seem more viable than it
actually is.

~~~
dalore
Landfill is better then incinerating. Burning it releases toxic chemicals and
is effectively dumping it in the air (vs dumping it in the ocean). Landfill
(dumping in the ground) is the least worst of all the options. From what you
may believe there is plenty of land available.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Incineration works well when modern technology is brought to bear. It also
doesn't create later water/land pollution problems. In any cases, one solution
might work better than the other depending on the context.

~~~
joe_the_user
Burning, recycling or burial all could be OK if they were done right. But
doing them right involves more costs than doing them wrong. The US and other
countries hire companies and pay them to do the disposal. Sure, the companies
get paid for the estimated cost of doing the disposal right but companies make
all their extra profit from doing the disposal wrong. The entire approach of
subcontracting is misguided but given vast vested interests behind the
subcontracting approach, given you know this stuff is going to be done wrong,
which wrong to do you do want? Pollution of the air, the earth or the water?

------
Causality1
Good. Dumping American trash in Malaysia isn't any better than emptying your
kitchen trash can on your bedroom floor.

~~~
dev_dull
They don’t dump it there. People from Malaysia are buying it.

~~~
NullPrefix
They weren't buying used diapers, they were buying recyclable plastic.

You wanted a new TV in your living room? Let me throw some puke and used
diapers instead.

~~~
dev_dull
You seem to be implying there's some kind of cheating happening in what is
ultimately a business deal. I wouldn't buy a new TV with puke and diapers
unless it was my business reselling the TV and disposing of the rest.

~~~
whatshisface
> _You seem to be implying there 's some kind of cheating happening in what is
> ultimately a business deal._

In the article, it was revealed that the contracts were for recyclable
materials not worthless toxic garbage, and Malaysia was actually being
scammed. (That's why their president made such a big deal about it).

------
princeb
malaysian recyclers, as far as i know, were fairly profitable despite paying a
much lower rate compared to chinese recyclers. there are companies out there
squeezing a fortune out of rubbish. the visual impact on the landscape is
notable, although not much more can be said about the sime-darby fields of
palm trees and container housing that dominate the rest of the rural
countryside.

while i feel bad for them, the reality of business in malaysia is that you are
at the mercy of politicians and their policies. these change like the squalls
at sea.

~~~
linuxftw
IMO, this is effectively the same thing as buying conflict diamonds or
conflict oil. Too much of our economy relies on serf or outright slave labor
by doing business with despotic governments.

Note: I'm not making comments about Malaysia specifically, I don't know
anything about the place, and parent's comments might not apply to them, IDK.

------
zaroth
Yesterday I was opening up yet another Amazon white bubble wrap envelope when
I took a closer look at the recycling logo.

“Please remove paper label before recycling.”

Mind somewhat blown. How often do you think that actually happens? But also,
really shows you how hard this stuff is to process. Of course peeling off the
label is nearly impossible.

I wish after tearing the perforation off, there was another flap in there
waiting to be deployed to cleanly reuse the envelope (versus the tape monster
which you end up with if you try to reuse it by folding it over on itself).

And then another row of perforation. And another flap. All the way from 8.5x11
or so, down to 8.5x5.

Some of the clothes mailers I get are designed like this, with an inner flap
and adhesive strip designed for sending back what didn’t fit.

Would that be worth it in the end at scale? I for one would definitely save
the bubble envelopes if they were cleaner to reuse.

But then that label would also have to peel off easier too (different type of
adhesive).

------
marcusjt
According to [https://youtu.be/SnB6iRDoJ90](https://youtu.be/SnB6iRDoJ90)
(7:45 onwards) even before China started refusing recyclable waste only 9% of
what went into blue bins in the USA was actually being recycled, the other 91%
was being incinerated or landfilled. what the stats are now I don't know but
they're almost certainly worse not better.

~~~
Joakal
Not the country's fault but Chinese companies definitely should take back the
waste. They produced it in the first place. If not, they should not be allowed
to sell.

------
toss1
My first thought is to wonder how this issue is related to this recent
finding:

10 Rivers Contribute Most of the Plastic in the Oceans

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-
plas...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-
tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/)

------
objektif
Do we have a solution for taking care of such waste in a clean way? I saw a
company that claims to convert it to fuel.

~~~
Joakal
Not that I know of. But there's a simple policy solution. Producers must take
back waste as a condition to sell.

If they're brand new companies, then simply ask for a bond until they've been
around a while.

All this is risk free but single use waste cost is priced in for consumers.

Countries that don't adopt this policy will have higher taxes to deal
environment costs which is worse than prevention. Companies affected by this
can bypass conditions by only using list of approved materials; recycable,
biodegradable, etc.

------
taksintikk
Can the Scandinavia trash>energy plants handle “contaminants”?

~~~
Thlom
They claim there’s no pollution from our local plant at least, but we don’t
burn plastic.

------
whenchamenia
If by dumped, you mean sold, sure. They will also have to sell it on if they
don't want it.

~~~
bilbo0s
The people who agreed to buy it did so illegally. It's just that now, Malaysia
is implementing a more robust and wholistic police action to enforce their
mandates in that regard.

Sucks for us, but entirely within the rights of the government of Malaysia. If
we have a problem with the scammers who took our money, then we're free to
take that up in court with the scammers. But that has nothing to do with the
government of Malaysia.

~~~
dev_dull
I actually don’t think it sucks for us. We’re better equipped to recycle or
properly dispose of the waste. It will definitely cost more but I think it’s
something that most people are willing to accept.

Even now I’m hesitant to put things like plastic bags and straws into the
recycling rather than trash. Only by placing it in the trash can I be more
sure it doesn’t end up floating near some reef.

