
Children as young as 9 locked up by Indian Police for speech violation - ycombonator
https://scroll.in/article/951915/karnatakas-sedition-case-against-parent-and-teacher-for-a-school-play-is-absurd-and-illegal
======
dang
This title breaks the site guidelines, which ask: " _Please use the original
title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don 't editorialize._" Not only
did you rewrite it to make it more baity, you added something ("locked up")
that doesn't appear to me to be in the article. Breaking the guidelines in
this way eventually causes an account to lose submission privileges on HN, so
please don't do it.

Please also don't post articles that are primarily appeals to nationalistic
indignation (for and against). HN exists for intellectual curiosity, and
there's none of that in this thread. This was entirely predictable.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
azifali
The children have been questioned for 4-5 days at a stretched and a parent has
been detained without being named in the police report illegally. It is
absurd, to what length that this nationalist government would go to remain in
power. I feel sorry for these kids and all those who are suffering at the
hands of this government.

~~~
dharmach
The parents should be brought under law for child abuse by indoctrinating such
young children in religious politics.

------
san_dimitri
Looks like this nationalist Indian government is very thin skinned and cannot
take any form of criticism directed towards its policies and laws. Sad. Any
form of government which takes such extreme steps towards its citizens for
expressing their opinion in a non violent manner has lost its credibility to
uphold the constitution.

~~~
sbmthakur
The play in the context actually called for "beating" someone. That doesn't
sound like doing things in a "non-violent" manner.

~~~
kposehn
Beating “with chappals” which are _slippers_.

~~~
hexagone
Three lines from the play were highlighted.

>“The government is telling Muslims to leave India and go away.” In reply, the
other child says, “Amma, Modi is saying show documents of your father and
grandfather otherwise he is telling us to leave the country.” At this point,
another child is heard saying, “Hit them with slippers if anybody asks for
documents.”

The last one is directed at survey workers who have been (mis)targeted
recently.

[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/asha-
worker-conducting-survey-polio-drive-attacked/articleshow/73530592.cms)

>Following instances of workers, engaged to conduct Poshan Abhiyan survey,
facing hostile behaviour, the state government had issued an ad explaining
that the survey had nothing to do with Census and NPR.

[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/two-women-
mi...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/two-women-mistaken-for-
caa-nrc-surveyors-attacked-in-rajasthan-west-bengal/articleshow/73538439.cms)

>In Kota, the woman attacked was a surveyor from the National Economic Census
department collecting data for the National Economics Census 2019- 2020 in
Brijdham area. Nazeeran Bano was let off only after she was able to convince
the crowd that she, too, was a Muslim, like them. The police later arrested
one person for the attack.

[https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/west-bengal-woman-s-
ho...](https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/west-bengal-woman-s-house-set-on-
fire-over-rumour-she-was-collecting-nrc-data-1639261-2020-01-23)

>The house of a 20-year-old woman was set on fire by a mob in West Bengal's
Birbhum district on Wednesday, following rumours that she was collecting data
for the proposed nationwide NRC.

>Chumki Khatun and her family are now under police protection after the
incident happened in Gourbazar village in Mallarpur police station area,
officials said.

I don't support sedition charges, but there should be a penalty for (1)
promoting (even petty) violence against government workers and (2) getting
your children to express this promotion.

------
arsalanb
The indian democracy is in shambles at the minute. In Kashmir there are
children as young as 19 months being maimed with pellet guns for "unlawful
assembly".

~~~
rgrs
pellet guns were used against stone pelters

~~~
arsalanb
Nah, it's a narrative that has been built around the use of pellet guns and
even live ammunition on civilians who are exercising their right to peaceful
protest. Surely a 19-month-old cannot be a "Stone pelter"?

By creating a war-like hysteria in the country, India gets away with doing
absurd things: make people believe they are perpetually at war with someone
(Pakistan, the muslims, the illegal immigrants, etc) and you can justify
bizarre things like firing at civilians, cow terrorism, etc

~~~
rgrs
> civilians who are exercising their right to peaceful protest.

i dont think so. News reports showed videos of stone pelters

~~~
arsalanb
You're missing the point. There have been people protesting (for good reason,
because Kashmir is not a part of India) and using footages of stone pelters to
shoot children is the issue I'm talking about.

------
fareesh
As many have pointed out, no kids are being locked up. They are being
questioned without a parent or lawyer present. This is wrong.

As for the free speech issue: Disclaimer - I'm in favor of all speech,
including hate speech. If it sounds like I'm defending the administration or
police, I am not.

There are many "sacred" political figures. Michelle Obama, for example, is one
of them. If there were a school play held in the deep south in which children
were made to advocate for her to be physically beaten, as a response to some
Obama government policy - I'm quite sure many folks in places like California
would want the secret service or some offical government agency to formally
investigate what's going on there. The police presence itself is not as
unusual or "nationalist" as some seem to be suggesting here.

For a concrete example - the musician Ted Nugent said at an NRA event that if
Barack Obama were to become President, he (Nugent) would be dead or in jail by
November. The Secret Service paid him a visit following that statement and
(correctly) did not arrest him.

Investigating threats of violence against the leader of a country is common.
In this case, the fact that a teacher made kids say it, is not really very
different in this context.

Unfortunately, India does not really have freedom of speech. The right to say
things that are encouraging political violence is not covered by India's
toothless right to free speech.

In this case, Modi is a similarly "sacred" figure to many, and he's also the
Prime Minister. Some people made children put on a play in which they suggest
physically beating the Prime Minister, and then a video of this gets shared on
WhatsApp.

Had the play been put on and nothing happened thereafter, it would have been
an entirely different matter. The fact that it started spreading on WhatsApp
now gives the police grounds to suspect that this is part of a conspiracy to
call for political violence.

The police in this case have gone ahead and actually arrested the teacher and
parent who wrote the script. If (and only if) they conspired to spread the
WhatsApp video, under the existing terrible laws, the police may have a case.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems that way as a layperson reading the statutes. I
hope I'm wrong.

------
nsenifty
As many comments have pointed out, no kids are locked up. The police went to
their school and questioned them. I am not debating whether it is wrong or
immoral to question minors without their parents present or the nature of the
charges, However, no child is arrested, charged, locked up, booked or entered
into justice system in any way. The article is click-bait and an appeal to
emotion, not facts.

~~~
monadic2
The fact that children are targeted by police for mocking the prime minister
in a _school play_ should appeal to your emotions. It's disgusting.

~~~
nsenifty
It does, but headlines like these are a distraction from the actual facts. All
it takes is a series of half-truths to form a false narrative that doesn't
serve anyone constructively. With an ineffective law enforcement, parts of
India are like a tinderbox waiting to go off as people act on emotions.

------
azifali
Another instance of what's happening now: The ruling party is promoting hate
speech against anyone who is liberal, left leaning or left of center and
anyone who expresses dissent, who disagrees with the government..

And so there have been numerous clear instances of violence against university
students, professors and protestors on the street.

[https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-the-
jamia-v...](https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-the-jamia-
violence-and-its-fallout-on-campus-culture-11577124682745.html)

[https://thewire.in/politics/delhi-polls-hate-speech-bjp-
camp...](https://thewire.in/politics/delhi-polls-hate-speech-bjp-campaign)

[https://theprint.in/politics/shaheen-bagh-biryani-bullets-
pa...](https://theprint.in/politics/shaheen-bagh-biryani-bullets-pakistan-
what-yogi-adityanath-said-at-delhi-rallies/358759/)

[https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/delhi-assembly-
polls-202...](https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/delhi-assembly-
polls-2020/story/bjp-mp-parvesh-verma-shaheen-bagh-clear-protest-delhi-
election-1640808-2020-01-28)

Reputed universities / academics are caught in the cross hairs:

[https://theprint.in/india/iit-professor-author-yale-
postdoc-...](https://theprint.in/india/iit-professor-author-yale-postdoc-
assam-academic-questioned-by-nia-for-caa-violence/359187/)

To all those who support this party in this forum must understand, as someone
else said - nationalism in all its form is abhorrent.

------
duxup
>a play that the police said criticised the Citizenship Amendment Act. The
mother and the teacher were allegedly involved in the creation of the play,
while the school management has been booked for allowing the play to be staged
in its premises.

A play that criticizes an act passed by the government and now you've got the
government after you / questioning children.

That's scary stuff.

------
sudhirj
No child seems to have been locked up. The kids are being questioned without
parents or lawyers present, and the case itself is baseless, but not sure
where locked up bit comes in.

~~~
QuercusMax
Are they free to go?

Sure sounds like they're being held against their will, which is one form of
being "locked up". If I lock you inside my house and prevent you from leaving,
I can be charged with false imprisonment, even though you're not in a prison.

~~~
sbmthakur
The kids were questioned in the school which is certainly wrong. But that
doesn't mean they were "locked up" somewhere. Locked up (in India at least)
usually means being jailed.

~~~
saq7
Jail in India means being held involuntarily at the police station. Usually,
but not necessarily, in cells. They were locked up

~~~
rgrs
interrogated at police station, not held. Clickbaity article.

~~~
saq7
They are children. Do children have no special protections in India? Is
interrogation much better?

This tactic of defending the government by trying to distract from this
heinous set of events by arguing semantics is not new, but doesn’t deserve to
be HN.

------
Apocryphon
These are trying times for large democracies.

------
NickBusey
Anyone being locked up anywhere for a "speech violation" is a travesty.

~~~
umvi
While I agree with you, "hate speech" is a controversial topic outside the USA
(and even inside the USA).

~~~
frockington1
What are the arguments for censoring hate speech? Not saying you are either
for or against censorship, just trying to understand the other side

~~~
d-sc
Hate speech can have harmful physiological effects on those it targets.

~~~
claudiawerner
Very true; I'm reminded of the funny example used in debates on these matters,
in which a legal professor is saying he'd rather have somebody break his left
leg than to publish something alleging sexual misconduct with a student, and
further, there are absolutely non-physical harms which can cause just as much,
if not more, pain and anguish than physical harms. In this view, the idea that
speech should be able to contain any content by law is about as ridiculous as
saying that actions in general should be able to contain any content. The
first amendment in the US is on a very shaky metaphysical model which does not
accord with what we know about the brain or trauma.

------
dependenttypes
Does it matter that they were children? Would it be better if they locked up
and interrogated adults for days for "speech violation"?

------
sbmthakur
The kid wasn't locked up. The title of the post is incorrect and misleading.
This is the actual title:

 _Karnataka’s sedition case against parent and teacher for a school play is
absurd – and illegal_

~~~
saq7
Were they free to go? Did they have parents or lawyers present? Was any adult
on their side present?

They had the same liberties and agency they would have had if they were behind
bars. Zero, to be precise.

~~~
rgrs
they were interrogated at police station, not locked up

~~~
saq7
They were children. Do children have no special protections in India? Is
interrogation much better?

Not sure if you are a pedant who cares to an inappropriate degree about the
proper use of words, or more likely, trying to distract from this heinous set
of events by arguing semantics.

------
sbmthakur
From the article:

 _After a video of parts of the play did the rounds on social media, the
accusation was that a child spoke a line in the play that Narendra Modi should
be beaten with slippers. However, several media reports have debunked this
claim. The child seems to have made a generic statement that anyone who
demands documents to prove one’s citizenship should be beaten with chappals._

It's absolutely wrong to detain the kid for this. Only the one who wrote the
lines for "beating" someone deserves to be questioned and that too in
accordance with the law.

~~~
saq7
Which particular laws would you use in this case? Are there no protections for
free speech in India?

Or is it rather that implied negative speech against the government is not
protected by the law?

Certainly, strong arming Muslim children by law enforcement is largely
protected by the law and what seems like the majority of the public.

~~~
lpcn112
Lately, the government has been widely cracking down upon all sorts of
dissent, claiming the excuse of 'anti-national tendencies', invoking sedition
laws. The situation is pretty dire at the moment.

Laws exist on paper. Law enforcement agencies however have been historically
known to act on behalf of leaders, a behaviour which also seen in many other
countries.

