
Making Playgrounds a Little More Dangerous - Reedx
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/10/well/family/adventure-playgrounds-junk-playgrounds.html
======
devchix
A recent episode of 99% Invisible: Play Mountain looked at how the playground
got to be safe and boring.

"A two-year-old boy named Frank Nelson was climbing a 12-foot-tall slide in a
Chicago park when he slipped through a railing and hit his head so hard that
it caused permanent brain damage. The park system of Chicago was sued and had
to pay out millions of dollars to Nelson’s family.

At that time, in the late 70s, there were no laws, or real industry standards
when it came to the safety of playground equipment. Frank Nelson’s fall was
one of a number of lawsuits that led the Consumer Product Safety Commission to
publish the Handbook for Public Playground Safety in 1981. Then another
standards organization, the ASTM, published its own guidelines. Pretty soon
these rulebooks were in the hands of insurance companies and parks departments
and school boards across the United States. To this day, almost all
playgrounds have to be approved by a certified playground safety inspector.

And safety inspectors look for places where kids could fall, or get pinched,
poked, or trapped. As you might imagine, all of these rules and regulations
make the job of playground designers a lot harder. This is the reason why the
playgrounds that you see everywhere all look more or less the same. A majority
of playgrounds are “post and deck” systems with standard swings, slides, and
monkey bars in one piece of equipment."

[https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/play-
mountain/](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/play-mountain/)

~~~
magicalhippo
A friend of mine designs playgrounds for kids, and is very good at it (his
designs win 90+% of the competitive bids he enters).

He's also worked hard to put in place a playground safety inspector
certification system over here.

One of his core ideas is that there are two types of safety: subjective safety
and objective safety.

For example, kids quickly learn that falling from a height is painful, and
experiences such as that teaches them how to evaluate their own safety when
say climbing. This is the subjective safety.

However they're usually not going to be able to correctly evaluate the safety
of climbing a playhouse where they might get their head stuck between two
planks because the opening between the planks were just right for their heads
to fit, but not their bodies. Or that the hood drawstring in their jacket can
get stuck in small wedges and openings, especially dangerous near slides. Such
issues go under the objective safety.

Now, his point is that you can make playgrounds which are _objectively_ very
safe, without making them any less exciting. Part of the excitement comes from
allowing the kids to explore their _subjective_ safety boundaries, but a lot
comes from the design itself.

He often works with one of the major suppliers of playground equipment on
their new designs, but a large part of his secret sauce is how he places that
equipment on the playground. Many playground designers (which at least here
are mostly landscape architects) seem to just put one piece there and another
over there, without giving much thought to facilitating the flow of
spontaneous play from one piece of equipment to the next.

Anyway, he could explain this a lot better than me. I just help him out with
some presentations and such every now and then.

~~~
solipsism
I like the dichotomy, but for me the names "subjective safety" and "objective
safety" make no sense.

"Obvious dangers" vs "non-obvious dangers" seems like much clearer language,
even if it's the case that there's a way to squint to make the terminology you
used make sense. Kids will naturally explore the boundaries around obvious
dangers.

~~~
Swizec
I think subjective/objective makes more sense than obvious and not. Subjective
danger is things that feel dangerous but aren’t. Objective danger is things
that don’t feel dangerous but are.

For example: a rollercoaster is subjectively dangerous but objectively safe.
That’s its whole design objective, feeling dangerous while being totally safe.

~~~
solipsism
_Subjective danger is things that feel dangerous but aren’t._

That's not what the word "subjective" means. Language is malleable and all
that, but "subjective" doesn't mean "feels like but isn't". Not even close.

 _Objective danger is things that don’t feel dangerous but are._

And wow, that's really not what "objective" means.

~~~
luhn
Subjective (adj)

1) Dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external
world.

2) Based on a given person's experience, understanding, and feelings; personal
or individual.

#1 is exactly “feels dangerous but isn’t”. #2 also works because it fits into
magicalhippo’s narrative about kids falling and adjusting their safety
boundaries.

I won’t bother about “objective danger” because you didn’t either.

------
fatnoah
The only anecdote I can share about this comes from the time my family was
touring a local day camp. On the tour, they showed us everything: archery,
fishing, swimming, ropes, and everything else you could think of. At one
point, we came to a massive, 10 foot high pile of dirt. The kids immediately
ran for the dirt pile and the parents' reactions were a 50/50 mix of "Awesome"
or "What are you building here?" I knew this was the camp for my kid when they
explained, the pile of dirt was just that. A big pile of dirt for the kids to
play in. It complemented the big pile of rocks that they also had.

~~~
twic
Me and a mate used to go out into the local woods, find little streams, and
dam them.

~~~
learc83
That was by far my favorite childhood activity. I must have built dozens of
dams on various creeks over the years.

~~~
cmrx64
I only fell through the ice once going over our makeshift bridge/dam... great
times indeed :)

------
gumby
An example from the '00s: We sent our kid to a German school in Menlo Park. He
immediately loved it on the first visit because the under-5s' playground was
full of old wood with splinters and dangerous tools (hammers, saws etc) and
the little kids could cause all sorts of ruckus, like building dams and
flooding them.

But the reality of a foreign-language school is that you need more than just
"nationals" (people who speak German at home or have one German-speaking
spouse in a couple) to make the finances work. And quite a few American
parents were and are interested because of the quality of education. But once
their kids were enrolled, many of them wanted more safety, more discipline, a
less casual attitude to kids getting naked, and academic work assigned to
preschoolers which is not part of the German pedagogy.

All of which made me wonder "why did you choose this school? And if you chose
it for its results, why challenge the process that _gets_ those results?" But
indeed, by the early 201Xs, the playground had been neutralized into the same
old anodyne sterility of the public parks.

(Amazingly, Silicon Valley has _two_ German schools within a few miles of each
other; one is subsidized by the government, the other is not so you get to
pick your ideology. But it does split the customer base).

~~~
eadmund
Heh, you get the same phenomenon with folks who move from a state because the
economic and/or legal conditions are no longer conducive to their desired
lifestyle — and then start voting for the sorts of politicians who put in
place economic and/or legal policies which are not conducive to their desired
lifestyle.

~~~
gumby
Good example! Also people who move to the bucolic countryside and then
complain about the pig farm next door.

We have this in Palo Alto: people move to the Cal Ave district and then
complain about the noise from the dive bar Antonio's that's been there for
decades. Fortunately the city has so far ignored these complaints.

------
radiorental
I have a zipline in my back yard, when I first put it up it was roughly 80'
long, my kids were 4 & 6 and I would manage them because (a) be a parent and
(b) they were careless/clueless AF.

I extended the zipline to 200' this spring, it goes over about 50' of water.
They're 6 & 8 now, they hook themselves up and do all the safety checks I
showed them once. Literally once.

They also have full access to my workshop, they respect it and ask before
cutting off their fingers.

I think we underestimate the young mind's respect for responsibility when we
give it to them. Conversely, if you protect your child from everything, they
do not develop the skills that ask inherent questions such as 'how can this
thing I'm about to do grow wrong? What is my plan if it does go south?'

~~~
matwood
I hated it at the time, but while growing up my dad made me help him with a
lot of his side jobs. These jobs often involved power tools like various kinds
of saws, chain saws, log splitters, etc... There was also minor electrical,
plumbing, and engine work often involved. My dad would point out what to do
and how not to get hurt. Obviously he would do anything beyond my ability or
strength, but I learned a lot just being part of the overall process.

Fast forward many years and I'm thankful for the learning that came out of
those times.

------
lucb1e
I was a stupid kid that fell from a high slide. My parents apparently made a
sizable donation after I landed with no harm other than a scare because of the
special tiles laid under it. Rather than paying for lawsuits, I'm happy to be
able to tell a story to the contrary of many in this thread, with a happy
ending and money going to the playground. My parents are great and I hope to
live up to this one day.

------
speeder
My second worst accident as a kid, was on a "safe" playground, when my finger
got stuck on a hinge of a swing.

My most daring stunts, were on "safe" playgrounds too, for example trying to
make swings do a 360 (yes, I tried that, never succeeded).

Both times what was going on my mind is that I wanted to do something fun, and
the equipment looked like it would work for what I wanted... Ended once even
accidentally disassembling a swing (it had a "hook" shaped hinge and I swung
it too far and it detached).

But the most fun I ever had... was playing on an uncle storage closet full of
boxes and old stuff, climbing on trees, learning to cook, making my own sword
when I was 16, and so on.

"Safe" looking stuff make people (even adults) do unsafe things (see the other
article about road speeds, mentioning how wider lanes make people speed more
and crash more often).

~~~
Tsagadai
A 360 on a children's swing can definitely be done. I've done it as a child
and as an adult. It usually needs to have a much longer rope/chain on it to
get the momentum up.

~~~
Doxin
Wouldn't you be limited to going 180 degrees? any more than that and you'll
start falling straight down on the backswing instead of swinging.

~~~
glaurung_
You're definitely right. I wonder if he's thinking of jumping off of the swing
and doing a 360 in the air.

Apparently it can be done if your swing has rigid bars in stead of ropes:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6KvBn7QvzaI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6KvBn7QvzaI)

------
tr33house
I loved this from one of the article's comments by Deb:

"The coup de grace, though, came the day I went to pick a student up from the
playground and as the child was running to greet me, the preschool teacher
sang out ‘Remember the new rule, Kai! No running on the playground!’

No. Running. On. The. Playground."

~~~
asciirobot
This is a real thing. Playground monitors are often little Hitlers. My old co-
worker and his wife have been dealing with this with their son. Playground
monitor woman makes them line up against the wall, has outlawed running, no
shouting or loud sounds, the list goes on. By all accounts, she's an extremely
bitter unpleasant human being and all round miserable wretch so she just takes
it out on the kids, robbing them of what little free play time they have.

Luckily my ex co-worker's wife is a bit of a trouble maker and has taught her
son to organize. He successfully organized a bunch of kids to protest the
unfair rules and draft their own set of rules they thought was reasonable.
Last I heard, they succeeded. Unfortunately that worked with a Napoleon
complex is still around but she's been somewhat neutralized.

------
alexhutcheson
There is good evidence that the rubber "safety" matting that's common on new
playgrounds causes significantly more long-bone injuries (broken arms and
legs) than previous surfaces like wood chips. Kids test the limits and play up
to the point of pain, so they'll leap off structures onto rubber matting in a
way that they wouldn't do onto wood chips or pea gravel. In the name of
"safety", we're using surfaces that prevent scrapes and road rash, but have
higher risk of more significant injuries when you account for the change in
kid behavior.

~~~
skavi
Why not use rubber mulch then? Lots of playgrounds already use it, and it
offers the cushioning of wood chips and the "softness" of rubber matting.

~~~
PetahNZ
I think he means wood chips hurt, so kids don't jump off things from so high,
so its less likely to break bones.

~~~
alexhutcheson
My understanding (not an expert) is that it's a combination of less high
jumps/falls because "wood chips hurt", and reduced long bone injuries for the
jumps/falls that due occur due to differences in the way the material responds
to the impact. Wood chips slide and absorb some of the kinetic energy, while
rubber matting (and probably rubber chips?) stay in place and rebound the
energy back.

~~~
robocat
As a kid there was gravel under the monkey bars. Not sure if it taught you not
to fall (I did fall, a lot!), but it definitely hurt when you did!

------
mherdeg
I was watching some kids in our local playground climb pretty high in some of
our local trees and wondering whether this a good idea, and came across this
writeup on risky play: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-
learn/201404...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-
learn/201404/risky-play-why-children-love-it-and-need-it)

Modern parents who keep up to date on the parenting zeitgeist will have been
exposed to the complementary idea to risky play that instead of saying "Be
careful!" to a kid, you can instead ask "Do you feel safe?", helping emphasize
what it is that you actually care about and helping your kid develop their gut
feeling for what is/isn't a good idea. (See one writeup of this at
[https://rhythmsofplay.com/get-outside-connect-climb-a-
tree/](https://rhythmsofplay.com/get-outside-connect-climb-a-tree/) but a Web
search for ["do you feel safe" "be careful"] will find lots of people saying
essentially the same thing).

I wonder what the zeitgeist will say in 10 or 20 years - given what everyone
is thinking now, where will they be in a little while when we've had a chance
to reflect on what we've tried and how it's gone?.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Kids feel safe when they don't know what the dangers are. My kid would feel
safe sticking his hand in a pan of boiling oil

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
Once, but they won't do it again.

I wouldn't recommend starting with a pan of boiling oil, but my five-year-old
loves helping to make pancakes, and it took exactly one glancing touch for him
to learn that the edge of the frying pan is hot.

~~~
ahoka
These are the small dangers we rob our children of.

------
achenatx
My kids (11,6, 3) are so lame they are scared to play outside by themselves. I
bought 100 acres with a creek so we would have a place to hike, camp, explore,
build forts, shoot guns etc.

My kids have been so coddled, they cant even play in the yard for long before
they want to come in. Over the last year they are getting better, but when
they have friends over, many of them wont even go into the forest and will
only stay close to the house.

~~~
s3krit
if you don't mind me asking, when you say your kids 'have been so coddled',
well... by whom?

~~~
achenatx
our fault for living in a sterile suburb. All yards were fenced off so they
got used to playing in a cul de sac close to the house.

One of the reasons we moved was to give them more direct access to nature.

------
lb1lf
This, this, a thousand times this.

Life is about evaluating risk. You need to learn it at some point. A
playground is as good a place as any.

By all means, make them safe enough that kids won't get maimed or killed - but
keeping kids from ever falling far enough to feel any real pain is probably
counter- productive in the long term.

Sigh. My eldest kid's kindergarten advertised themselves as an outdoor
experience thingy, then proceeded to cut down every tree on their premises as
kids climbed them (the horrors!) and occasionally fell down (Aaaieee!) - so
better make the playground look like any generic McPlayground.

~~~
quakenul
> By all means, make them safe enough that kids won't get maimed or killed -
> but keeping kids from ever falling far enough to feel any real pain is
> probably counter- productive in the long term.

There is no room between "overprotection" and "freedom", that guarantees
safety from harm. Serious accidents have to be accepted before they even
happen.

A scary prospect for many parents, I am sure.

~~~
ip26
I'm not giving my seven year old the freedom to operate a chainsaw. I don't
think that counts as "overprotection", and I think it confers considerable
margin of safety from harm by chainsaw.

~~~
quakenul
> I don't think that counts as "overprotection"

Rest assured, I don't think anyone else does either.

------
badcede
"Grown-ups have taken all the fun out of being a kid just to save a few
thousand lives."

[https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/04/06/george-carlin-
you-a...](https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/04/06/george-carlin-you-are-all-
diseased-transcript/)

~~~
eridius
Tell that to the kids who died playing in unsafe conditions.

One can certainly argue that we've gone too far in the direction of removing
all risk of injury. But saving lives? _Absolutely_ the right thing to do! One
preventable death is one death too many.

The goal here should be "controlled risk". Not no risk at all, but controlled
risk in well-understood conditions to ensure that kids can still experiment
and have fun without risking death or permanent injury. This article mentions
kids having access to hammers and nails and planks to build stuff. That's
controlled risk; they could hurt themselves, but they're not going to kill
themselves (at least, not by accident). But you wouldn't give them a nail gun.

~~~
tomatotomato37
>One preventable death is one too many

The problem is right here, what is the society acceptable definition of
preventable? Keeping all children in hermetic bubbles would prevent all child
deaths due to disease, but weaken their immune system so much that the minute
they come out they would get sick and die as an adult. In effect all these
safety efforts are creating mental hermetic bubbles that fucks their future
mental state when they finally achieve independence.

~~~
ausbah
>Keeping all children in hermetic bubbles

To me that's kind of a facious slippery slope argument. Of course it isn't
worth it to completely lock down a person's life in the name "safety" or
"their own good", but when you can take measures that guarantee a greater
degree of safety with only a thin, marginal reduction in freedom, "living", or
whatever you wish to call it (if any reducation at all) - of course it is
worth it.

To me this would be something like restricting people's right to drive on
public roads when we have a fully autonomious network of vehicles (however
long that will take). Sure people are a bit more restricted in their freedom
to man a vehicle, but on the other hand you could (and this is what I am
wagering) completely eliminate the ~95% of vehicle accidents and deaths caused
by humans.

------
bongo662
I was lucky growing up in Kentucky, behind my parents house was roughly 20
acres of woods that couldnt be developed due to flooding. Was a great place to
play at all ages growing up - playing cowboys and indians, paintball, setting
up a ‘bmx’ course. We got hurt a lot of course falling out of trees breaking
arms and legs or landing in rocks and needing stitches. But it was a ton of
fun!

------
megous
Well, why not. It's a lot of fun to be playing with, climbing over and
exploring garbage like what is shown on the photos.

I'd just not kid myself. It will come with more injuries, hopefully not
debilitating.

I got several unpleasant injuries by playing freely with anything available. I
threw a metal rod through my feet. Jumped on a 4" nail while running, securing
my shoe to my feet, quite well, cut half my thumb off with my favorite knife.
:) All these things and more I can see kids be able to achieve in such an
environment.

I suspect that had my parents have to do more than just drive me to the
emergency, they'd be more involved in ensuring I don't do these things again.

I wonder if free public healthcare like in many EU countries vs whatever is in
the US has an effect on what parents let their children do.

------
lemoncucumber
I grew up going to the city of Berkeley's Adventure Playground
([https://www.cityofberkeley.info/adventureplayground/](https://www.cityofberkeley.info/adventureplayground/)),
which has been around since 1979.

It was one of most memorable and fun places I remember going as a kid. I did
once end up with a nail in my arm (which I still have a scar from), but even
after that happened my parents let me keep going back.

~~~
shereadsthenews
That place is hilarious. One time when I was there some kids were trying to
cut through a piano with a back saw, which makes an unbelievable noise.

------
United857
Same can be said for a lot of other things/activities many of us enjoyed
during childhood.

E.g. I remember playing with real chemistry sets with chemicals that could be
potentially harmful if ingested, alcohol burners, glass tubing we had to
flame-polish ourselves. Those are long gone; just replaced with "safe" but
incredibly dumbed-down kits that are little more than dyes/food-coloring.

~~~
burfog
Thankfully you can still get stuff at the hardware store. The plumbing supply
section has copper sulfate, sodium hydroxide, and sulfuric acid. The pool
supply section has 10 molar hydrochloric acid. The garden section has sulfur.
The paint section has xylene, acetone, and methanol.

For example, you can purify garden sulfur by recrystallizing it with xylene.
This is plenty dangerous, since xylene is almost like gasoline (a bit less
volatile) and you'll be heating it up nearly to boiling. The aromatic ring
structure is required; most other solvents produce deadly hydrogen sulfide
gas.

------
emptybits
Something from a similar set of values:

"Why I’m Sending My Child to Forest School and not Kindergarten"
[https://www.cbc.ca/parents/learning/view/why-im-sending-
my-c...](https://www.cbc.ca/parents/learning/view/why-im-sending-my-child-to-
forest-school-and-not-kindergarten)

~~~
shereadsthenews
Unfortunately in California "forest school" and other play schools attract
mainly anti-vaxxers and other weirdos. It might be a good idea, but the self-
selecting clientele are a problem.

------
dawnerd
This is essentially how I grew up. Was free to use just about any tool I
wanted. We dug holes, built tree houses ourselves, you name it. At one point
we even built two different sheds, just us kids without any adult really
helping.

I don't recall if any of us even got hurt doing this.

I also think cities moving towards higher density with little to no yards for
full homes isn't helping.

~~~
matwood
I got hurt plenty as a kid with quite a few scars to show for it. None of the
injuries were life changing though. Some of the dumbest things we did would
probably trigger a SWAT team today. Bottle rocket fights (do they even sell
bottle rockets anymore?). BB gun fights. They always lasted until that one kid
would pump his up more than once. We also lived on a river and started taking
the John boat out around 12 or 13.

------
bitwize
When I was a kid, my elementary school had an elaborate playground. The
standard swings, slides, and monkey bars -- with sand underneath for a soft
landing -- were supplemented with numerous structures built out of old tires,
including tire geodesic domes to serve as spaceships or houses and a tower
built out of giant tractor tires packed with sand and a wooden spire in the
middle to serve as a watchtower, ship's mast, or Decepticon base. Central to
this tire wonderland was TireTown, a huge two-story fortification with many
rooms, tire bridges to two smaller tire outposts and poles to slide down for a
quick escape.

But of course, this is southern Connecticut, where people have their lawyers
on speed dial. TireTown and its accoutrements were a lawsuit waiting to
happen. When I surveyed my old school on Google Maps a few years ago, they
were all gone, replaced with a much smaller standard playground.

~~~
takk309
That reminds me of my elementary play ground. We had lots of wood structures
and wood chips to "soften" a fall. Those wood chips were brutal when they
would freeze together in the winter!

------
eweise
If you like unsafe playgrounds check out this place in Berkeley
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Playground_(Berkeley...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Playground_\(Berkeley\))

Almost stepped on nails a few times. Only took my kids once. Felt a little too
unsafe.

------
petschge
How many extra lives are lost to obesity because children never learn how fun
it is to move outdoors? Everything is so safe and non-fun. Of course the
deaths 3 decades down the line are not attributed to overly safe playgrounds
and overprotective parents and nobody gets sued. So there is no need to fix
this...

~~~
dragonwriter
> How many extra lives are lost to obesity because children never learn how
> fun it is to move outdoors? Everything is so safe an non-fun.

I've yet to find a kid that doesn't find a flat field of grass outdoors to be
fun, so if there's a problem here, it's parents keeping kids indoors, not
playground safety being too good.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Hills are known to promote mentally stimulating play.

------
djsumdog
In high school I remember walked through the primary school and noticing both
jungle gyms were gone. Another friend said the big metal jungle gym at his
elementary school were gone too. Only the overhead monkey bars remained.

I suspect kids probably go hurt on these (they are solid metal bars that go up
pretty high after all). I've seen them return to playgrounds, but today
they're all made of rope and above softer material like sand or recycled
tiers.

Sure kids are safer today, but that element of danger is gone. I recently
though about that when I read "The Coddling of the American Mind," where the
authors talk about how kids are 'anti-fragile' and how trying to make them
safe actually keeps them from learning how to deal with tough situations in
life. I think they mention these types of playgrounds in the book.

~~~
Fwirt
I think some of this falls into the category of obvious risk versus hidden
risk. When I was a kid, I was playing in the park with some other kids who
were dropping through the bars of a dome-shaped jungle gym. I tried to follow,
dropped through, and found myself hanging by my head, which had gotten wedged
in the bars. I dangled there writhing around until my dad lifted me out about
10 seconds later. I had giant welts on the front and back of my head, and tore
all the connective tissue in my forehead, I could wrinkle it up like a Klingon
for years afterward. I think that particular jungle gym was removed after
that.

------
dllthomas
Can we get the spinny-thing-of-death back?

~~~
Something1234
The Merry Go Round?

~~~
dllthomas
Not the Merry Go Round.

[https://playgroundology.wordpress.com/2018/06/29/whats-
in-a-...](https://playgroundology.wordpress.com/2018/06/29/whats-in-a-name-or-
the-spinny-thing-of-death)

A glorious, if occasional, feature of my childhood. We did refer to it that
way, I think organically (perhaps just looking back and not at the time - I
can't recall). I found the article about it by googling the phrase!

I'm not sure how I'd feel about my own child on it, to be honest. I'm more
bummed that he isn't allowed to climb any of the disused locomotive engines
that are still present (but now fenced off) at a number of playgrounds.

------
stickfigure
Along these lines, Bay Area folks might be interested in _Camp Tipsy_ , the
crazy campout run by Chicken John where people build boats from junk and try
(not) to sink them. Lots of opportunity for kids to get in (the right amount
of) trouble.

It's coming up in a few weeks: [http://camptipsy.com/](http://camptipsy.com/)

(I'm not involved, just a frequent attendee - it's fun)

------
tempguy9999
I can't find it, but a few years ago one of the leading members of RoSPA (The
Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents,
<[https://www.rospa.com>](https://www.rospa.com>)) came onto BBC radio 4 and
argued their job wasn't to prevent all accidents, that some were unavoidable
and society shouldn't try for perfect safety.

It was a pleasure to hear.

------
throw7
I lived near and went to Action Park in New Jersey a couple of times. I was
too young to ride the water speedboats and motor go-karts though... bah! Those
were the days.

The issue is one of scaling risk as the knowledge and responsibility of the
child increases. It's not surprising we have sued things down to the
lowest/safest common denominator.

~~~
alexhutcheson
For those who aren't familiar with Action Park, the story is incredible.

This 14-minute video has some of the highlights:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKDx_piZvsg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKDx_piZvsg)

This oral history is pretty fascinating too:
[http://mentalfloss.com/article/536412/action-park-water-
park...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/536412/action-park-water-park-oral-
history)

------
stuart78
I'm all for these, but I do find it somewhat ironic that we've 'productized'
the junk yard, making it just safe enough for us to be comfortable with our
kids roaming 'free'. If it is a step towards liberation of youth I'll take it,
but it is still a half measure.

------
nkzednan
In a similar vein, a big park/playground recently opened in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
They had some inspiration from playgrounds outside the US.

[https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2018/12/06/the-
surprisi...](https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2018/12/06/the-surprising-
design-of-a-new-tulsa-park-where-children-learn-by-escaping-adults-and-facing-
obstacles/) \- mentions how some parts were designed to make it easy for kids
to go to certain places but hard for parents to follow.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/arts/design/tulsa-park-
ga...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/arts/design/tulsa-park-gathering-
place.html)

------
standinator
In my primary school we had some poles in the shape of a right triangle (with
one of the legs being formed by the ground) with different slopes, all of
which were 5-6 metres tall. The slope of the steepest one was nearly 80
degrees. The ground was tiny pebbles/gravel which made small falls somewhat
less of an issue. They served no purpose other than being climbed, it was
built to explore one's boundaries and to be brave. Most of us were scared to
climb them but some who were really good climbers had no problems and got
instant street cred by doing that.

------
newnewpdro
As a kid we would visit some elderly relatives who lived in a much older
neighborhood than our home's new suburban sprawl.

The park there had slides made of steel which towered above the area homes. It
was awesome and made those relatives my favorite to visit until the town
modernized the park and got rid of all the remotely risky stuff in the
process.

But shortly after that I discovered skateboards and stairs, and the joys of
evading the local community college police. Maybe it's OK that the parks are
neutered, we can still find risk if we want it.

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twothamendment
One "dangerous" playground. Neptune Park, Saratoga Springs, UT. You have to
see a picture of the pyramid.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=neptune+park+utah#imagekey=!...](https://www.google.com/search?q=neptune+park+utah#imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipP4R2nlltRK0xuaDEB-r68BS0UKaTgeQNsZvfzO&lkt=LocalPoiPhotos&trex=m_t:lcl_akp,rc_f:nav,rc_ludocids:4568581851318178043,rc_q:Neptune%2520Park,ru_q:Neptune%2520Park&viewerState=lb)

------
arx1422
My kids love that playground. Sure you hold your breath when you see them from
afar (no parents allowed in) messing around with a sharp saw, but it's worth
it. A great space.

------
eitally
For anyone in the bay area, I found a playground with adult sized monkey bars
a few weeks ago. You know, the old school steel pipe structures from the good
old days.... Some kind soul even place-marked it on Google Maps. I present,
the Kennedy Middle School (Cupertino) Monkey Bars:

[https://www.google.com/maps/place/KMS+Monkey+Bars,+Cupertino...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/KMS+Monkey+Bars,+Cupertino,+CA+95014)

------
jeffrallen
My yard is an adventure playground. My kids' favorite toys are things they dig
out of the dump each Saturday morning (and which I sneak back into the dump
the next weekend).

------
aidos
I’m going to a festival next weekend where they have a building area for the
kids. They give them wood, nails hammers and saws and set them free. It’s just
awesome.

~~~
trophycase
Do you have a link or a name? I'm interested in hearing more.

~~~
aidos
Elderflower fields in Sussex (England). There’s not a whole lot of info at the
below link, but it’s one of the great many things going on - which is
basically kids stomping around in the woods having a lovely time.

[https://www.elderflowerfields.co.uk/2019/woodland-
tribe/](https://www.elderflowerfields.co.uk/2019/woodland-tribe/)

Edit: better link of the people that organise it
[https://www.woodlandtribe.org/](https://www.woodlandtribe.org/)

------
kissgyorgy
This came to my mind about this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seWHLTt3oNQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seWHLTt3oNQ)
First, I was surprised, then I read the comments.

~~~
Lowkeyloki
What do the comments say? Only one is in English and that's the only language
I can read.

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dillonmckay
So, I remember in preschool, we were allowed to play with hammers, nails, and
pieces of scrap-wood.

I tried to build a miniature wrestling ring with four nails, some rubber-
bands, and a square piece of wood. I hit my thumb alot.

------
winrid
I love it!

This is basically the environment I grew up in for a good portion of my life
(and I'm so happy for it).

------
bryanrasmussen
Ok I'm in Denmark, so also in the EU - can it really be that in our socialist
paradise playgrounds are more dangerous and less boring than in the US?

I can't remember the playgrounds from the US very well anymore but thinking
about it yeah most places I went to were pretty cookie cutter, but I'm also
old so I think the boring part is maybe not directly correlated with safety.

Here is a company that makes playgrounds in Denmark
[http://monstrum.dk/en/](http://monstrum.dk/en/) I have several of them in my
area. I just wonder if there is really less of a focus on safety in Denmark of
all places. And if so, why?

on edit: fixed typo

------
iamtheworstdev
why do all of the photos look fake?

------
umvi
You're right - anything that provokes fear or outrage gets instant attention.
Everything else doesn't.

North Korea imprisoning a single idiot American who crossed the border =
national dialogue because it's outrageous

School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control because
it's outrageous.

DUI accident that kills a family of 5 = small blurb in local news because it's
not outrageous (even if it should be).

Thousands of people dying from obesity-related health issues = crickets
because it is not outrageous.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control
> because it's outrageous.

I'm sorry, what country is this? The one I live in its just "thoughts and
prayers" when that happens.

~~~
bargl
I do not understand the attack on "thoughts and prayers." There are plenty of
people sending "thoughts and prayers" who also support gun control. I get that
it calls out the hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control, but it
also seems like an overly broad attack.

What does someone who both believes gun control is necessary and wants to send
"thoughts and prayers" do? I think the idea of gun control is a target at a
solution while thoughts and prayers are meant to console the individual.

Anyway, it's just something I found super annoying. I had someone who I know
lost a loved one (not due to guns) and I struggled with what to say. It's a
simple thing, but I realized I didn't know how to attempt to console someone
anymore.

~~~
TimTheTinker
> hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control

I don't see how the two equate to hypocrisy. A friend of mine (a Christian) is
strongly opposed to gun control. He has a concealed carry license and carries
everywhere, because he wants to have the means to protect himself and his
loved ones from an active shooter, if necessary. He cites "if guns are
outlawed, only outlaws will have guns," and feels personally affronted by gun
control legislation.

That, and he prays regularly for others. I for one would not accuse him of
hypocrisy on that basis.

~~~
free652
If there are no guns then outlaws wouldn't have them.

~~~
coding123
That's not what he said. If guns were OUTLAWED, not if there were no guns.

------
ausbah
I am frankly appalled how some people in this thread appear so nonchalant
about willing to accept the deaths of children in the name of letting a
majority of kids "have the right kind of fun".

~~~
leetrout
I don’t get that vibe. I’m not sure of your age or if you’re a parent but
there’s some recent writing in “Coddling of the American Mind” where they
speak about making the road for the child instead of the child for the road
and how that’s influenced adolescents today and their lack of maturity in
college and beyond.

It’s terrifying to think about something happening to my daughter but I know
if I don’t give her the opportunity to learn about responsibility and safety
on her own I’m not doing my job as a father. Having a playground or similar
option (hiking trails, rustic camping, etc) to explore this is a plus and IMO
part of what we need in society and less safetyism.

~~~
djsumdog
That's exactly the book I thought of when I saw this article. I think he
mentions this type of playground in the book.

