
A World Without Wi-Fi Looks Possible as Unlimited Plans Rise - dx034
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-09/a-world-without-wi-fi-looks-possible-as-unlimited-plans-catch-on
======
croon
> Customers will get full LTE speeds until they reach 22GB of usage, after
> which they’ll be subject to reduced data speeds and de-prioritization.

> Hotspot tethering — up to 10GB at LTE speeds — is included, as are calls and
> texts to Mexico and Canada.

That's certainly an alternative take on the definition of "unlimited" than the
one I'm accustomed to.

Curious: What's the reduced speed? Is it less than 1Mbit/s? If so, good luck
doing anything other than reading/checking mail/look at a map. And yet the
articles are discussing "watching videos" without connecting to wifi.

~~~
scarface74
The "reduced speed" is whatever it takes to prioritize customers on the same
tower who are not over the limit so they get full speed. If you aren't on a
congested tower, your speed isn't impacted.

Seems fair to me. Unlike wired internet, wireless carriers can't just throw
money at the problem and get more bandwidth. A certain spectrum can only carry
a certain amount of data.

Even building more towers and having each tower serve a smaller radius won't
help in a really congested area like a football stadium.

~~~
croon
> The "reduced speed" is whatever it takes to prioritize customers on the same
> tower who are not over the limit so they get full speed. If you aren't on a
> congested tower, your speed isn't impacted. Seems fair to me.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, I'm saying it's false advertising.

I also know the technical limitations on the radios on the towers (worked in
the industry). But suggesting that it's unlimited, both from the ISP side and
the Bloomberg side, is disingenous at best, and suggesting it can replace wifi
in that implementation, even more so.

That said: You can get unlimited 4G in both Tokyo and Seoul, and those are
pretty dense. Again it technically couldn't work if everyone got it and used
it as much as they could, but arguing that the US ISPs can't do better is
patently false.

~~~
scarface74
How is it "false advertising"?

1\. It is "unlimited" \- not "unlimited full speed"

2\. They tell you about the deprioritization.

On an anecdotal note, my family was in an extended stay for a few months while
we were waiting to get our house built. The hotel wifi was abysmal. We were
tethering our phone to our AppleTV - Binge On allowed us unlimited video
tethering - we were using 80-100Gb per month successfully without a noticeable
slow down. We were not in a congested area.

But part of the problem isn't the carriers fault. It takes years to get
approvals from cities to build towers sometimes.

~~~
michaelt

      It is "unlimited" - not "unlimited full speed"
    

It doesn't say "unlimited full speed any day any time any location" either.

I'm planning an internet service that provides unlimited 600 Mbit/s wireless
internet. But it'll only be available from 3pm-4pm on the day of the first
full moon of every month in one building, in the basement, inside a locked
filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying beware of
the leopard.

I think we can both agree that calling my product "Unlimited" would be false
advertising.

------
yardie
Where are these unlimited LTE plans the author speaks of? I haven't seen any
except for from a few lucky folks who are grandfathered into truly unlimited
data plans.

Typing this from my home wifi which tops out at 1.8Gbps connected to a
unlimited 100Mbps ISP data connection. 14 wired and wireless devices are
currently connected. Try that with any current wireless plan.

~~~
joezydeco
T-Mobile is offering unlimited LTE if you upgrade to their "T-Mobile ONE"
plan, which starts at $110/month for two lines, $100 if you set up automatic
payments.

The fine print also mentions that speeds will "reduce" when you hit 30GB, but
doesn't say if that means you're kicked down to 4G like they used to do, or
they just throttle your LTE bandwidth.

~~~
scarface74
They aren't reduced when you hit 30Gb. They are temporarily reduced when you
hit 30Gbs _and_ you are in a congested area so others can get full speed. If
you aren't in a congested area your speed isn't reduced.

------
msimpson
> With every major U.S. wireless carrier now offering unlimited data plans,
> consumers don’t need to log on to a Wi-Fi network to avoid costly overage
> charges anymore. That’s a critical change that threatens to render Wi-Fi
> obsolete.

Does anyone at Bloomberg understand data caps or throttling?

~~~
jrockway
That statement sounds technically correct to me. You don't need to log on to a
Wi-Fi network to avoid costly overage charges. You do need to log on to use
the Internet usefully, however.

~~~
msimpson
Updated my quote to include their claim within the next line, indicating,
"That’s a critical change that threatens to render Wi-Fi obsolete."

------
snsr
"Unlimited" marketing BS aside, the article is mostly a puff piece about
deployment of LTE in the unlicensed 5.8ghz band currently used by wifi etc. So
when they say "a future without wifi is possible", they mean it literally: you
won't be able to use wifi in the 5.8ghz band in many places.

[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/hurricane-lte-u-
dont-l...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/hurricane-lte-u-dont-let-wi-
fi-get-blown-away)

------
libeclipse
It should also be noted that WiFi uses considerably less battery than mobile
data does, so while convenient, this probably won't replace WiFi anytime soon
unless there's a massive boost to battery technology.

~~~
legulere
I heard that for the first time, so I looked around and found this paper:
[http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~lierranli/coms6998-7Spring2014/p...](http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~lierranli/coms6998-7Spring2014/papers/rrclte_mobisys2012.pdf)

Here the problem seems to be that the base power needed (beta in table 4) is
way higher than for wifi.

I wonder if the numbers have changed since 2012 though.

------
0x0
Have fun not being able to update iOS (even if the iOS update is only 20mb),
or downloading or updating the Facebook iOS app since it's bigger than 100mb!
:)

~~~
akoster
Also, have fun trying to use your "high-speed"data connection in buildings
with terrible reception. Disclaimer: I've worked in many of these

~~~
arethuza
We recently purchased a house 9km from Edinburgh with _no_ mobile signal -
fortunately the Vodafone signal booster device we got (which relies on
broadband) appears to work really well.

What we hadn't noticed is that you get a decent signal in the garden but not
in the house. Probably as we are right next to a small hill of solid volcanic
rock that is between our house and the nearest mast.

~~~
the-dude
> signal booster

I think the correct term is _femtocell_

~~~
arethuza
One of these things:

[https://www.vodafone.co.uk/shop/accessories/sure-
signal/](https://www.vodafone.co.uk/shop/accessories/sure-signal/)

~~~
the-dude
One of these things :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtocell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtocell)

Not a signal booster.

~~~
arethuza
Yes, I know how it works and that its not literally boosting the existing
signal but that's what the chap in the Vodafone shop called it and it does
rather make things easier to explain to people who aren't bothered by
technical trivia.

~~~
the-dude
On HN

------
fleshgolem
As per usual: Good job of extrapolating american circumstances to the rest of
the world

~~~
jankotek
Quite opposite. US is far behind and expensive. UK and Ireland had unlimited
data plans 5 years ago for 20 euro/month. Today even Turkey or Vietnam have
better data deals than US.

~~~
adventured
> Quite opposite. US is far behind and expensive.

The US isn't far behind. The US had over 90% 4G population coverage long
before it was wide-spread across Europe. Europe lagged far behind the US in
fact. [1] It is expensive. You're conflating two separate things. The US had
unlimited data plans longer than five years ago. Some carriers briefly went
away from them and are now going back to them due to competition.

The UK has a median income that is barely comparable to the poorest US states.
[2] Why would it be surprising if our goods cost more? Despite that, our cost
of household goods is almost universally lower than the UK, with a few
exceptions like wireless.

[1a] [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/mobile-
phones/10288585...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/mobile-
phones/10288585/Europe-lagging-in-4G-deployment.html)

[1b]
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304914204579396...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304914204579396622656906700)

Feb 2017: "UK trailing behind Europe and US in 4G usage"

[1c] [http://www.vanillaplus.com/2017/02/25/25474-missed-
connectio...](http://www.vanillaplus.com/2017/02/25/25474-missed-connections-
uk-trailing-behind-europe-us-4g-usage/)

"Europe slow to adopt 4G mobile: sector execs"

[1d] [http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-telecoms-
idUKTRE78Q60W20110...](http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-telecoms-
idUKTRE78Q60W20110928)

Mar 2016: "Stop whining, America: Your LTE makes Europe look slow"

[1e]
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/10/twin_prime_global_n...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/10/twin_prime_global_network_survey/)

[2] [https://mises.org/blog/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-
state...](https://mises.org/blog/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-
would-be-among-poorest-states)

~~~
jankotek
Ok, lets put it in a different way. In Ireland I had cheap prepaid card and
40GB/month was not problem (this was on 3G).

I could not do that in US, I would have to sign for 1 year and pay over $1000
in total.

------
forgottenacc57
Seems a somewhat long bow to draw. I want wifi and wouldn't want mobile only.

~~~
wccrawford
Yeah, I think we're quite a ways off from this scenario. I went to a wedding a
few weeks ago, and the house on the beach where they had the rehearsal dinner
had no cell reception indoors. Somehow it was perfectly fine outdoors, though.

I had to fix their Wifi to stop from going nuts.

------
Frqy3
Even if mobile carriers introduce truly unlimited plans and excellent indoor
coverage everywhere, they will also need to open extensive APIs to enterprises
if they want to entice them away from Wi-Fi.

Enterprises (including businesses with public access areas such as shopping
centres and stadiums) want the extra control and information (such as the
location of consumers as they move through shopping centres) they have with
their Wi-Fi networks that they can get today.

Conversely, the mobile carriers will probably be wanting to incorporate the
Wi-Fi access into their mobile networks as another access type. Apart from the
control aspect, having combined and coordinated access to both licensed and
unlicensed spectrum allows a better infrastructure cost to capacity tradeoff.

~~~
johnchristopher
I am pretty sure Bluetooth geoloc and NFC stacks provides better tools for
marketing and tracking purposes.

------
Brendinooo
Just because these unlimited plans are being offered doesn't mean they'll take
off. The economics might work well for single people, but if you're a family
of five, how many phones and unlimited plans are you willing to get? $500 can
get you a good desktop that'll last for 5-10 years, that same amount gets you
a mid-to-high range phone that will _maybe_ last for four years.

Plenty of places still don't get a good signal either - every trip to the in-
laws' place reminds me of this.

This world does look possible, but I don't think it's close yet.

~~~
scarface74
I have a family plan on T-Mobile. Unlimited data, 14Gb tethering per line, of
course unlimited voice, text and I get unlimited data in other countries. I
went to Mexico last year and got 3G speeds.

I pay $200 a month for 5 lines. It will be 6 soon since they are running a get
free line promotion.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Easy with that free line promotion. I got two free lines for Black Friday
(4->6 lines) and my billing still hasn't been correct since then (being
charged $20/month for each of my "free" lines). I had to escalate to John
Legere's office, and it still isn't fixed ("next billing cycle we promise").

Otherwise, have been a happy T-Mobile customer for 16 years.

------
aembleton
On my network, three it is £32/month for unlimited data. But, this is limited
to 30GB for tethering which is why I'm still using FTTC.

[http://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/SIM-size-
select?step=confir...](http://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/SIM-size-
select?step=confirmplan&planid=1400624204948&)

------
ecopoesis
I don't think the unlimited plans will last. I think the only reason they've
appeared is because we're past the build out phase of 4G/LTE. I expect that
when 5G comes around, unlimited plans will disappear as the carriers capital
expenses rise during the build out and while their 5G network is
underprovisioned.

------
webo
I'm on a $30 unlimited data T-Mobile family/friends plan.

Since I'm not home a whole lot, I cancelled my ISP two months ago and have
been tethering for two months. I can still work for home just fine, and watch
Netflix in HD.

The speed is slowed down after 40Gb , and I get about 15-25Mb download speed.

------
zrm
The new "unlimited" plans slow down if you use more data.

People hate overage charges and that gets rid of them, but everyone is still
going to prefer wifi at every opportunity to avoid invoking the slowdown.

The new plans are an improvement but in no way do they lead to the death of
wifi.

------
6d6b73
I'm sorry but lately the websites are getting so heavy that soon we will need
these 288GB of usage just to check daily news and weather.

------
LoSboccacc
neh how long would it take to upload a 4k youtube video from a phone LTE?

~~~
scarface74
On average, probably less time than on wifi. Most consumer ISP services have
abysmal upload speeds. For instance Comcast's 1Gbps plan has an upload limit
of 35Mbs. Most of their other plans top out at 10Mbps upload.

With T-Mobile I can get up to 40Mbps upload.

------
thinkindie
Wifi will live as long as roaming charges are applied around the world.

