
Gym Class Is So Bad, Kids Are Skipping School to Avoid It - dorkwood
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/01/why-pe-is-terrible/581467/
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bittermang
I think the worst thing about gym is that I didn't learn anything there.

I didn't learn about calories, or healthy eating. I didn't learn about basic
cardio, why it's good for you, or how often to do it. I didn't learn about how
to build muscle, what reps or sets were.

Gym amounts to mindless busywork. Do stuff or you get an F. It could serve as
a foundation of knowledge to set yourself up for healthy habits for the rest
of your life. Instead, it has the opposite effect of training you to hate
fitness.

~~~
fibonachos
I gained a deep, searing hatred of team sports due to a combination of forced
participation and being a physically awkward teen in the middle of an epic
growth spurt. Being graded on ones ability to complete a mile within a certain
time constraint, as opposed to being graded on effort, is utter madness. The
whole thing put me off physical activity for most of my adult life. Only in
the last couple of years have I started exercising again, but on my own terms
and for my own reasons.

There is a huge difference between "because you have to" and "because I want
to".

~~~
usaphp
> Being graded on ones ability to complete a mile within a certain time
> constraint, as opposed to being graded on effort, is utter madness

How is that different from being graded in other subjects in school? You don't
get an A in calculus because you tried to answer the question, you get a grade
based on how good you answer the question.

~~~
Jach
Calculus isn't a required course and as such has less of a pressure to "pass
everyone". You don't get an A in pre-algebra either just for trying, but since
everyone has to take it if you're trying then you're unlikely to get held back
on that class even if most of your answers are wrong.

I'm fine with coaches grading on performance. It's a proxy for effort + talent
like a lot of things, and as non-geniuses know effort extends outside the
classroom proportional to your talent. If you can't even get a 20 minute mile,
you're going to have to put in more effort outside the classroom, which might
involve refusing to eat 100% of mom's delicious huge dinner or doing "exercise
studies" (i.e. working out outside of class).

Whether gym class should be required is another discussion. I don't think it
should be (and that easily filters out most people complaining about being
graded for performance anyway) and it's a pretty poor attempt at managing
rising obesity rates.

~~~
usaphp
I was giving calculus just as an example, I was referring to a general subject
in school where you have to study and do your homework in order to get good
grades. I am pretty sure most of those who got low grades in gym classes did
not bother to do any "homework" to make themselves prepared to the next class
(e.g. practice catching the ball, do pull ups etc). It's the same with kids
who had bad grades at subjects that required thinking, they did not bother to
do their homework and were not really interested in reading, studying
etc...You should look at the issue from both perspectives

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yoz-y
Before I moved to France I hated P.E. classes. But I think they did something
right here. The year is divided into three sports that you do for three months
each. There is always an individual sport (track, swimming) a team sport
(rugby, handball) and a one on one (e.g.: badminton). Emphasis is on knowledge
of oneself, for example for track you have to predict your time for 3x500m run
and you get 1/3 of points this way. If you predict too low or high, you will
lose on grade. This means that you actually have to get to know your limits.

The only issue I had was for team sports where the individual differences are
just way too high to construct a game interesting for everybody.

~~~
GuiA
Yeah, I didn't particularly care for PE as a French kid growing up, but in
hindsight I can play pretty much any common sport decently because of it. One
unexpected side effect is that it makes socializing quite easy - I can accept
when someone invites me to play tennis, volleyball, etc. because I have some
basic grasp of the sport from school.

In fact, when I moved to California, I saw that everyone was really into
climbing, and started doing it too because I had done it in school, even
though I had never been into it at the time.

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mrob
I'm convinced that gym class results in millions of lost disability-adjusted
life years for every generation. Kids are either naturally athletic, in which
case they'll exercise whether you want them to or not, or they are naturally
nonathletic, in which case gym class just teaches them that exercise is the
officially sanctioned method adults use to bully kids. It took me about ten
years to figure out that exercise could be enjoyable when it's not forced on
you by the psychopaths who end up as gym teachers. Gym class should be banned,
or if that's politically impossible, the job should be assigned by sortition
like jury duty. Nobody who wants to be a gym teacher should be allowed to do
it.

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mfoy_
If it were more about physical education (literally) and had less emphasis on
actually _doing_ intense exercises I think it would be a lot more beneficial.
Leave the crazy intense physical activities to extracurriculars. No personal
trainer would create a one-size-fits-all training routine, but for some young
students that's literally the entirety of what "gym class" entails.

By Physical Education, I mean learn about basic health issues, commons
diseases and symptoms to look out for, learn the importance of diet and
exercise, standard first aid, that kind of thing.

~~~
satokema
Even the physical activity isn't bad - but it's completely unfocused. One week
you're running laps, the next you're playing random ball games. You learn a
little about stuff in the weight room, but not enough where you can run a good
routine after the fact.

At no point is there any option of "hey, let's tailor a fitness goal and plan
for you to stick to for the majority of your life". But then again, the goal
of schools isn't to maximize pleb fitness, right?

~~~
mfoy_
I'm _pretty_ sure the purpose of the modern gym curriculum is to create more
meat for the college-football grinder.

~~~
arkitaip
Modern P.E. (and many sports) goes back to at least antiquity where the need
for militarization in society was greater. Military training has set the
standard for exercise and sports because it provided an established system of
collective activities and clear outcomes to promote strength, discipline and
collaboration. Qualities that any military force needs.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Modern P.E. (and many sports) goes back to at least antiquity where the need
> for militarization in society was greater.

Honestly, even without the need, it would probably be better if modern PE was
structured with the intent of preparing students as much as individually
practical for participation in the universal militia, even if we know to a
relative high degree of certaintt that those who don't volunteer are unlikely
to be called to serve, with a curriculum cooperatively designed by experts in
child physical development, child intellectual and social development, and
modern military operations and civil emergency operations.

As it is, it seems to be an unfocussed and poorly directed afterthought that
remains around because eliminating it would offend people, but without a
strong purpose or any concern from policy makers except firefighting reacting
to problems that emerge as the unmaintained structure clashes with evolving
social values.

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kerrsclyde
When I was at school you were sneered at by teachers for anything less than
upper average performance - imagine that happening in maths or English
classes.

It took me years to recover, I never did any more structured exercise until I
was in my late 30's, now I love it.

~~~
davros
Ahhh - bad memories of humiliation and bullying. Took me 2 decades to realise
I can actually love sport, sad to see that happening to the current
generation.

~~~
ChristianGeek
Yep. I’m 57 and I still hate all forms of exercise thanks to my experience in
gym class.

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Tomminn
People don't like to be in situations where they are stack-ranked according to
a skill they are bad at.

Stereotypical jocks lose when you stack-rank them in a random math class, so
the second they can drop maths they do. And before that, they might wag it.

Stereotypical nerds lose when you stack-rank them in a random p.e. class, so
the second they can drop p.e. they do. And before that, they might wag it.

When you force people in the bottom end of skill distribution into a stack
rank system, it does real damage to their self esteem. And this will
essentially traumatize them from actually achieving growth in the subject. And
that growth is actually important. Stereotypical jocks are much better off for
not being afraid of maths. Stereotypical nerds are much better off for not
being afraid of exercise.

One solution is pretty simple. Isolate the top, say, 10-20% of performers in
each skill, and stack-rank away if you want. They'll have enough self esteem
with respect to the skill to be motivated by the open competition. But most of
all, just isolate them from the rest.

With the rest, you'll probably have more luck with a growth mindset type
philosophy. Do whatever you can to take focus away from absolute performance
metrics, and get them to focus on their own growth. And keep them the hell
away from that top 10-20%.

Ideally, you follow this principle through all the way through the skill
distribution and organize classes into quintiles of ability.

Just remember, if you're going to rank people, then isolate them from people
they can't compete with.

It takes a very unusual kid/teenager to come away _motivated_ by the
experience of being totally dominated in some area.

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glangdale
It seems to be terrible in both Australia and the USA, over a long period.

My son's Judo instructors had much more fond memories of European style
instruction, which sounded considerably more demanding, but more structured
and educational. Part of the problem to my way of thinking was that PE class,
by high school, has just become a way of glorifying those who already have
physical prowess at the expense of everyone else.

This is not helped by the fact that most PE teachers, in my experience, were
the most avid disciplinarians and the least intelligent teachers of anyone I
encountered.

It's a pity. It could be done way better. They would have to start earlier,
set higher standards for the kids (while practicing positivity and focusing on
how much they can improve everyone), and VASTLY increase the quality of the
teachers. It also wouldn't hurt to reemphasize the offering of a wide variety
of sports for everyone (rather than focusing all resources on a few chosen
teams, or, like most schools I know about in Australia now, just not really
having sport anymore).

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BucketSort
Am I wrong in thinking that technology amplifies how we gauge the energy
required for physical activity? With just a few moves of my finger I can watch
a video, read a paper, talk to people, etc. Contrast that with running,
lifting, etc. The effort required for the comparatively minute results we
achieve seem dramatic across this contrast. I wonder if having computers with
an internet connection in their pocket at all times is making kids lazy...
which may be an additional factor in this reported situation.

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0xFACEFEED
That's sad. In my high school days (2000s) gym class was just as bad. I
skipped it every time, flunked it, and took a health night class to make it
up. I liked going to school at night and health class was awesome so it was
worth it :)

The worst part of gym class was the bullying. The aggressors usually got
energized through gym class and started messing with other students right
after. Gym classes were pretty big and we often had "do what you want" days so
idle/bored bullies went into action some more.

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supermw
I was fortunate that my highschool offered a choice between PE and
_weightlifting_ classes.

PE has clearly always been for suckers, I remember seeing kids playing
volleyball or soccer or running 3 times a week in the hot sun with no
sunscreen, half of them not really even giving a fuck, and thinking how I had
NO desire to be a part of that mess.

Weightlifting by contrast, was not only an easier class but also much more
educational. It was like going to the gym and having a personal trainer plan
your workout and give you advice. The coaches wrote up an exercise plan on the
whiteboard and you just went and did it on your own, occasionally they walked
around making sure people weren't goofing off.

If you wanted to slack off it was easy to just do light weights and go through
the motions but most people actually did put in effort to see physical change
in their bodies (and of course there's always peer pressure to be strong and
fit, especially with girls watching). And because weightlifting has natural
downtime in between reps you could socialize freely.

The stuff I learned in that class helped me to not be clueless when I went to
an actual gym by myself. In fact, I've been going to the gym regularly ever
since that class ended.

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fromthestart
I don't understand all of these complaints. Is the solution to difficult
coursework to do away with lessons? Why are physical challenges treated so
differently from mental difficulties? Sure, not everyone is athletic, but the
fact that not everyone is studious and intelligent is not a reason to avoid
encouraging people to be so by sending them to school.

I think what we really need is a serious, rigid, disciplined curriculum in PE.
That probably doesn't involve team sports so much as learning to exercise for
fitness and self improvement, totally different from the half-assed gym
classes that we have in the US now.

Bullying is a symptom of other problems and is not an argument against good
physical education. Perhaps if ours hadn't turned into such a sensitive,
coddling culture, we wouldn't have a 40% obesity rate[1].

1.[https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html)

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dangerbird2
In lieu of gym class, my school required us to participate in a club sport or
school team every season. We actually got much more exercise having gym every
few days, and the fact that we got to choose what sport to play made it
something we could get personally invested in, even people who were not
naturally athletic.

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Mirioron
I hated gym class the most out of all the classes in school. It felt like
torture. But then again, I have asthma and nobody had explained to me back
then what asthma meant for gym class.

Outside of that, I have to agree that gym class didn't really teach me
anything.

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AnimalMuppet
A counter opinion:

I wasn't that great. But I found out that, if I got open in the end zone,
they'd throw me the ball, and I could catch it. This led to me going out for
the football team.

I wasn't that great there, either. I was like fifth or sixth on the depth
chart. But it led to a lifetime of being in fairly decent shape.

(Note well: Gym class itself did not lead to a lifetime of being in fairly
decent shape. But the exposure to various sports, and finding one that I liked
and did all right at, was still a big deal. Also note that this was in the
1970s; things may well be worse now.)

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sliken
I have to say Gym for my 14 year old has turned from one of her favorite
classes to one of the worst.

It seems like a pretty rigid curriculum that's centered around various easy to
quantify things (like time to run a mile) and not anything to do with being
healthy, exercising, or having fun.

So they keep them on the asphalt for an hour when it's 110F. They teach them
dancing and changing partners every 30 seconds during flu season. They have
then run through muddy grass when it's raining. More like a boot camp than
anything fun/healthy.

~~~
riskneutral
> run through muddy grass when it's raining

Will the horrors never end?

~~~
sliken
Try spending 8 hours working productively with cold soaking wet feet the
squish when you walk.

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starpilot
I loved gym class. It was easy and a relief. Some of the sports I really
enjoyed, like floor hockey and soccer. There were some lame ones too, and also
some creepy behavior from the male gym teachers toward certain female
students. But other than that it was the easiest part of the school day. I
could turn off my brain and work up a sweat.

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e40
My son did crew to avoid gym class. Turns out he really liked it, but the
motivation was a hatred of gym class.

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smittywerben
I didn't want to have PE at 7am and be sweaty and stinky for the next 5 hours.
On sport teams we showered but that's the people wanted to be there.

> why this particular P.E. program was counterproductive... points to
> bullying... it facilitates the teasing of overweight or unathletic kids.

Making PE more strict on _everyone_ because of the _few_ promotes the exact
opposite of the desired result. It's fallacious to believe the obese are that
way because they are bullied. We divert dumb kids, yes? Why is it insensitive
for the obese? Mixing these groups destroys morale. Varsity kids workout
together, junior-varsity work out together, etc, because it works.

The administration babysits warm bodies for cash. The PE teachers will end up
taking the blame for giving kids their recess back.

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mti27
We had an odd thing in elementary school gym class - parachutes! We sat around
a parachute on the floor, and the teacher would play a record (it was the 80s)
that would tell us when to raise/lower our arms then swap places by running
under it when it was above us.

~~~
partiallypro
I think this was really common in the 80s/90s in the US.

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desc
It's the same problem everything suffers from: meeting targets rather than
doing a good job.

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pkaye
They need to have less competitive sports where everyone focuses on
themselves. Team sports like football and softball causes lots of bullying of
weaker and non-athletic kids because everyone else is drive to make their team
win.

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preommr
Kind of funny how so many people here (myself included) hated gym class
because of being bullied or being physically awkward. I wonder if this is a
widespread issue or if it's just that hackernews is full of nerds.

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paulpauper
During gym we did running, sit-ups, volleyball and kickball. Wish we done
weights instead. no one on YouTube is making money with jogging and sit-up
videos. it's all weight lifting.

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closeparen
My two most excruciating memories of physical unpleasantness: having strep
throat, and cooling down after “the mile” in middle school gym class.

Gym class taught me that a healthy lifestyle is about extreme discipline and
regular self-torture. It took me a decade to discover that you could ramp up
into exercise in a way that didn’t make you want to die, and to make sense of
the way other people talked about having any kind of positive experiences with
it.

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Simulacra
Gym was awful. The teachers were awful, the bullies were awful, we learned
absolutely nothing and felt like they were just trying to make us expend
energy. What time would’ve better been spent in a class talking about cooking
and nutrition, and how to prepare healthy meals

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b_tterc_p
The comments here are really confusing me. I went to a New England public
school. Gym was mostly a fun team sport game that rotated every month or so. I
was very athletic. Most of my friends were the opposite. I believe we all had
a good time regardless.

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2bitencryption
things i remember from gym class in middle school/high school:

* gym class was every single day, 5th grade until 12th grade.

* mile run every Friday (I hated it, but it did help me get to sub-7 mins by high school, for someone who was never athletic)

* heart-rate monitors we wore that strapped across our chests. every day we had to get our monitor and apply this gross conductive gel to the device and strap it around our bare skin at chest level. you got credit for the gym period if you got >15mins of HR above 120.

* Badminton!

* Those scooters with wheels on them.

* Step-aerobics. Holy cow. Exercising with plastic stools.

* A locker room with showers, which showers I have never seen anyone use once.

* line dancing for some reason?

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johnohara
The problem with gym class lesson plans is they gradually become "laminated"
so all you have to do is wipe them with a paper towel when you spill your
coffee on them.

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DigiMortal
My high school removed dodgeballs and gave us these foam bullshit things that
didn't even work.

So that was the end of PE, at least for me...

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jmpman
My school district required gym for everyone from jr high through high school.
Did I enjoy it? No. Has it been useful for the rest of my life? Absolutely. If
it weren’t for those PE classes, I wouldn’t feel comfortable at the gym with
free weights, and wouldn’t know how fast I can be at running. It changed my
life despite being my least favorite class. I’d recommend daily gym be
required for my children.

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logfromblammo
Three words:

Shirts.

Versus.

Skins.

~~~
taude
Haa...I remember those days. Actually, I saw some kids playing pond hockey
yesterday who were playing shirts vs skins in the 40 degree (f) temperatures.

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aaron695
Two things predict success, which correlates to health and happiness, in life
well, IQ and Conscientiousness.

Schools can't teach IQ.

Does gym teach conscientiousness? I don't know, but for smart kids academic
high school classes certainly don't. School should not be easy for anyone
including smart kids, it needs to challenge.

“These adolescents were not enjoying the daily P.E. requirements and would’ve
rather skipped school,”

Swap that with work and you get life. At what stage do you teach children to
be adults?

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Animats
Ah, the days when the US had Government-ordered fat shaming.[1]

"Give that chicken fat back to the chicken and don't be chicken again."

"Nuts to the flabby guys."

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFofqe26t-4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFofqe26t-4)

~~~
starpilot
Ah.

