
A Map of Native American Tribes - hellofunk
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/06/24/323665644/the-map-of-native-american-tribes-youve-never-seen-before
======
torstenvl
I appreciate the effort and think it's a good idea in that it tries to help
people remember that this wasn't a barren empty land before European settlers
arrived.

That said, I think the NPR article overstates the quality of the map. I can't
speak with any authority about any Native American tribes outside the upper
Great Lakes, but the map understates the extent of both the Odawa and
Potawatomi tribes, and fails to recognize the relationship among those tribes
by, e.g., failing to list the Odawa name for the Odawa (Nishnaabeg), which
would clearly mark them as closely related ethnolinguistically to the Ojibwe.

~~~
ChuckMcM
If you look at the PDF there is an email address for sending updates. I would
encourage you to send that information on.

That said, self taught cartography is like self taught coding (or anything
else for that matter), it is an ongoing learning process.

~~~
hackbinary
I'm sorry, but self taught or otherwise, learning is always an 'ongoing
process.' Learning is never complete, cartography, coding, or anything else.

~~~
hackbinary
Uhm, why the downvote?

Just because someone took a formal course in something does not give them the
right to say that I have nothing further to learn in a subject.

~~~
quadrangle
Probably (not the downvoter myself), you veered off too tangentially. It's not
that you are wrong, it's that you wrote a whole comment about a particular way
that another commenter bothered to emphasize the idea of updating the map (the
real point, as opposed to the didactic status of the cartographer)

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11thEarlOfMar
I was recently wondering why there are no restaurants serving American Indian
foods as a cuisine[0]. I'd have to think that it could be quite rich in
variety, given the number of tribes and their dispersion across the continent.
Any ideas why that food is not represented?

[0] Yelped 'American Indian restaurant' and got zero results.

~~~
mbrubeck
There are a couple of Native-owned food trucks in my area serving frybread[1]
and other foods.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frybread](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frybread)

~~~
stevenwoo
Listening to interviews with native Americans on the radio - frybread was an
adaption to forced living on reservation land with limited rations provided by
the US government in pretty inhospitable locales - instead of the diet they
had before they had been defeated. Having this be a main part of their diet
has led to an outsize number of cases of diabetes in the population that is
susceptible to it and other health issues.

[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975889](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975889)
There's a recent episode on it.
[http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/07/20/navajo-nation-
fry-...](http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/07/20/navajo-nation-fry-bread)

~~~
int_19h
Which, by the way, is one of the subjects of controversy whenever anyone tries
to open a Native American restaurant - whether they offer frybread, or refuse
to do so, there will always be a lot of people criticizing them for it.

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codingdave
My first reaction matched a lot of the comments, of questioning the accuracy
based on my knowledge of my local area. But I'm quickly getting over that
reaction, realizing it is just an ego driven, "Well, actually..."

The truth is that these maps are trying to make a bigger point -- to remind
people that there is a bigger picture to the history of this continent. And no
history lesson is going to be perfect, so I am going to resist the temptation
to let imperfections distract from this work -- they are pretty cool maps, and
a worthwhile project.

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sorokod
"before their first contact with Europeans" is a very long time. Such map
necessarily must reflect an idealised take on facts.

~~~
gus_massa
This is usual in history. They have some sources and try to do their best
effort to make a reliable map. [I'm not a historian, so I can't be sure how
good is this map.]

When you see a map of Europe in 1000AD, you have almost the same problems.
Europe is easier because they had a written record, and some map from that
epoch. Anyway, the historical records may be wrong due to political reasons
... so it's not easy.

Another point is that maps changes with time. The map of Europe in 1000AD,
1100AD, 1200AD, 1300AD, 1400AD, 1500AD are different. The maps of America in
the same years should show the change of the territories each one had.

Edit: Fixed DC->AD

~~~
bmmayer1
Point of information. I've heard of AD and BC, CE and BCE, but I've never
heard of DC. What is DC?

~~~
schoen
Some Romance languages use that for AD, like Italian "dopo Cristo" and
Portuguese "depois de Cristo" ('after Christ').

[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/AD#Translations](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/AD#Translations)

~~~
nerdponx
I've never heard of this before. Does anyone else find it strange that two
very strongly Catholic societies abandoned the Latin version, while other
societies didn't?

~~~
schoen
I think abandoning ecclesiastical Latin terms for things is kind of random,
and isn't usually very correlated with religiosity. (If people actually wanted
to be secular about it, they would nowadays say "era volgare", "era comune",
"era comum", etc.)

Edit: for example Portuguese has retained numbered weekdays (like Hebrew and
ecclesiastical Latin practice), while Spanish has gone along with the
widespread European trend of using the classical Roman names. In Spanish the
first work day is the Moon's Day, while in Portuguese it's Second Day (based
on the Biblical second day of creation).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week)

I don't think we can read any huge theological or cultural implications into
this difference, though.

~~~
dredmorbius
Given that we're fast approaching the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther's
famous door-nailing, the roles of vulgar languages and schism with Catholic
doctrine _might_ be related to this, though I'd have to look into the history.

The AD/BC system is formally known as the Dyonisian Era System, and dates to
... 525, er, CE, when it was created by Dionysius Exiguus.

The use of "common era" dates to 1615.

The English Reformation (schism with the Catholic Church) to 1532 - 1534.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation)

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protomyth
I wonder how far before contact because some of the placements don't jive with
what I was taught as a youth.

For the current map of Federally recognized tribes in the US:
[https://www.nps.gov/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ResMAP.HTM](https://www.nps.gov/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ResMAP.HTM)
or
[https://www.blm.gov/cadastral/biamaps/biaoffices.htm](https://www.blm.gov/cadastral/biamaps/biaoffices.htm)

~~~
_Codemonkeyism
I always found it surprising that the US calls regions where people live the
same as regions where protected animals live (reservations). Isn't that
offending to anyone? I would be deeply offended.

~~~
aaron-lebo
They're both derived from "reserve", which is just saying that this land is
reserved for these people.

~~~
grzm
I find etymology fascinating and really enjoy noticing and reflecting on
cognates. That said, the actual uses of the words in their current context and
their connotations is more important for communication and understanding what
people mean and intend to convey.

~~~
aaron-lebo
It's not offensive, though, unless you are trying to be offended.

The reservation system is a broken acknowledgement that the US stole land from
all of those tribal groups, but the purpose of a reservation is to set land
aside, to reserve it for those tribal groups, to say the government cannot go
any further.

There's much better things to be offended by. Nobody is offended by hotel
reservations.

~~~
grzm
That's a much better and more respectful explanation I think of your position
than calling someone's opinion silly or goofy. I'd have a hard time unpacking
your second comment from your first.

Particularly on difficult topics, if you think someone's giving something too
little thought, err on the side of giving it more thought rather than
something shorter. I sympathize with a desire to be concise and pithy, but it
can so easily be read in more ways other than it's intended. There's just less
info there: fewer error correction bits, so to speak.

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jaimex2
He's also made a map of South America which for some reason isn't mentioned in
the article.

[https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/history/events/new-
pre...](https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/history/events/new-pre-contact-
map-transforming-understanding-of-south-america-one-tribe-at-a-time/)

------
sizzzzlerz
In school, we learned about the Yokut tribe who inhabited the central valley
floor and foothills from Bakersfield to Merced/Stockton. The map didn't show
this tribe, however, looking up the Yokut on Wikipedia revealed that the tribe
names are different and the map correctly shows these names. Interesting to
get the real info 50 years later.

~~~
asciimo
This is a great point. Many comments are noting that Carapella's map doesn't
jibe with history books or government records or even local lore. But all of
these sources tell the story of the victor. We may never know the truth, but
we non-natives rarely have access to this perspective.

~~~
protomyth
Not all of the sources tell the story of the victor. Some of us are going from
what had been told by enrolled members of the tribes themselves. HN is a
surprisingly diverse community.

------
Pxtl
I can't even read the map on my phone - on both the PDF and the website, the
text is too low res to read. I have no idea whether this is a problem with my
phone or the content (I'm on wifi so it's not my ISP "helping"), but this is a
constant frustration.

~~~
averagewall
In Chrome, go to the ... menu and pick "request desktop site". Many sites that
are customized for mobile have massive failures and it's easier to just get
the proper version which you can zoom and scroll to see all the details. I get
a good map that way.

~~~
Pxtl
I'm just surprised that I saw the same problem on the PDF.

------
tickerticker
It is difficult to write history for any culture without a written language,
but it can be approximated as the current "best guess" which can be improved
over time. It is a great leap forward to begin this process, especially with
autonyms. Future versions of this map might be color-coded to show tribal
geography by century, as known from artifacts, oral histories, fossil remains,
and general archeology. Rather than a monograph of anthropological
scholarship, this strikes me more as a statement of cultural pride. It says to
me that, even though history is written by the victors, there are other
perspectives worth sharing.

------
AtomicOrbital
Of course all species on earth as well as the entire surface of the earth are
silent witnesses to this relentless shoveling under of prior lifeforms ...
humans have no monopoly of this dynamic

~~~
dredmorbius
Life is palimpsest.

------
X86BSD
Wow that is one horribly incomplete map. Where are the Kansa, the Wichita, the
Osage, etc

~~~
_Codemonkeyism
Sounds like you want to help out.

~~~
protomyth
I would hope that people who are interested in this type of thing contact the
folks at the tribes about their own efforts.

------
asciimo
There are detailed PDFs on Carapella's site, noted at the end of the article:
[http://www.tribalnationsmaps.com](http://www.tribalnationsmaps.com)

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arca_vorago
I really dislike sites that prevent me from zooming in on mobile.

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dogruck
This map might give the misleading impression that the American Indians were a
static mix of tribes, sitting in a time capsule, waiting for the Great White
Man to stir things up.

In reality, the situation was fluid. The standard forces of disease, warfare,
trade networks, natural disaster, and human ingenuity were always at play.

~~~
aaron-lebo
It might be inaccurate, too.

I got a little too interested in the Comanche over the summer, which the
article notes is actually a Ute word basically meaning "enemy". The Utes
called them enemy because the Comanche prior to European contact lived in the
Rockies much farther north. It was only the horse which allowed them to move
out onto the plains. He's got them located in the plains of Texas, which
again, they weren't at until probably after 1700 and when they were they
completely dominated a region way bigger than that.

Wiki:

 _The Comanche emerged as a distinct group shortly before 1700, when they
broke off from the Shoshone people[15] living along the upper Platte River in
Wyoming. In 1680, the Comanche acquired horses from the Pueblo Indians after
the Pueblo Revolt.[16] They separated from the Shoshone after this, as the
horses allowed them greater mobility in their search for better hunting
grounds._

[http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/06/Tribal_Nations_Map_NA...](http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/06/Tribal_Nations_Map_NA.pdf)

I'm not sure exactly what he's representing. It can't be a single moment in
time.

[https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Summer-Moon-Comanches-
Powerful...](https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Summer-Moon-Comanches-
Powerful/dp/1416591060)

~~~
wallace_f
Wouldn't the obvious answer seem to be to provide certainty factor estimates
where varying degrees of evidence are available?

Anyways, I've rarely ever seen historians qualify their data points.
Unfortunately humility is only for the scientists, and because they can't
escape the same consequences of uncertainty when drawing conclusions from data
(i.e. statistical significance). Confidence is for the rest of us, not because
it is helpful, but because our human nature commands it.

~~~
nerdponx
Instead of trying to conduct some kind of comprehensive probability analysis,
admirable as the idea might be, you could just be clear and say "this is
roughly the point in history I'm representing."

~~~
wallace_f
I was thinking more along the lines of a metric indicating the probability the
conclusion is correct, based on the strength of evidence.

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aryehof
Perhaps such a map displayed prominently in every US school would be
appropriate. Kudos to the map's author.

~~~
s4vi0r
....why? I mean, yeah, maybe in a social studies class, but I fail to see any
reason otherwise.

~~~
mcv
It's history. It's a good thing to be aware of it.

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xmrsilentx
The map should be renamed to "North America prior to illegal immigration".

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_Codemonkeyism
To all the critics, what would be a better map of say 1400 with the
distribution of tribes?

~~~
flukus
The game Europa Universalis 4 maybe? I'm sure it's full of inaccuracies,
omissions and generalizations, but it comes with different map modes that show
things like religion, culture and various relationships between the tribes at
the time.

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enriquto
a map of the whole of North America would make more sense in this context
(instead of a map of "U.S. and Canada", which do not even appear in the map
itself).

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ajeet_dhaliwal
One positive thing about the modern US and Canada is at least a lot of native
names have been kept or are used for names of states, provinces, towns and
regions. In Australia there seems to be far less of this.

~~~
sanswork
Is it possible in Australia you're just not recognising the aboriginal words
because pretty much everywhere I've lived in Australia has been full of areas
named using aboriginal words.

Sydney eastern suburbs have places like Bondi, Coogee, Maroubra, Woollahra,
Woolloomooloo.

~~~
danieltillett
There is even a very long list of place names of Aboriginal origin on wiki and
it is very far from complete [0].

0\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_place_names...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_place_names_of_Aboriginal_origin)

------
js2
(2014)

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kahnpro
Have we never seen it before because it's inaccurate and irrelevant?

~~~
asciimo
Not sure those are criteria for visibility, as I definitely see this comment
yet it has the same qualities.

