
Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill - riffraff
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3025641/hong-kong-leader-carrie-lam-announce-formal-withdrawal
======
dirtyid
I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked
resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting
herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to
Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy
is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down
that far.

Beijing specifically instructed Lam not to give in to any demands a week ago.
Lam capitulating is Beijing capitulating, and Beijing is not going to
capitulate with 70th anniversary coming up and activated mainland nationalism.
Beijing is all in. For mainlanders, after how events have been portrayed by
state media, Lam is basically acquiescing to terrorists. The situation is
developing and I think there's a very narrow set of outcomes where this would
not backfire spectacularly.

~~~
tobtoh
I would argue that Beijing didn't anticipate the resolve of the protestors,
but they would certainly know about and endorse Lam's backdown.

China is happy to play the long game - they apply pressure to HK to bring them
inline with China, people protest, they back of a little, but not all the way.
They wait ... then apply pressure again. The idea is that by 2047 when the
'one country, two systems' arrangement expires, HK will fully accept the China
way of life. Lam backing down is an easy way to defuse the situation for now
and they can try again later.

I expect to see this cycle of peace, then protest, then peace again continue
for years - each time, HK will lose a few more rights they used to have.

~~~
justaguyhere
_each time, HK will lose a few more rights they used to have._

Very likely. Sucks for HK people though :(

Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests,
for example.

As impressive as they are, how long can Hong Kong people keep up this level of
protests? Beijing can keep the pressure forever and play the long game

~~~
autarch
> Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests,
> for example.

Except in Tunisia, which is the one success story from that time period. It's
now a functioning democracy. Of course the real test is how it does over the
long term, but at least so far it's an example of real change in the region.

~~~
BurningFrog
Revolutions don't produce democracies.

~~~
lacker
One counterexample is the American Revolution.

~~~
billfruit
I doubt if the early United States was very much democratic in the modern
sense.

~~~
wolco
It was probably more so then now rather than less.

~~~
wolf550e
When only white land owning men could vote?

~~~
SllX
The status quo. You’re condemning men for maintaining the status quo in order
to agree on something going forward on a handful of issues when every other
word was essentially revolutionary.

This is prior to the Article I branch of government, Congress, abdicating much
of its power and creating this myth of coequal branches of government, and
when House districts were a lot smaller, and you and your neighbors has to
decide between yourselves who was in charge of certain functions of keeping
society going. You know, who was going to be the local Sheriff, who was going
to run the local court, who was going to deliver the mail and so on. Many of
these jobs were boring and without glory, but someone had to do them.

Had Madison’s Virginia Plan been implemented in full and the Connecticut
Compromise wasn’t implemented, it would likely have been more democratic
still.

Structurally, the United States constitution is overwhelmingly democratic, and
especially for the time it was written and ratified. If it has grown less
democratic at all, it is due to factors the signers and ratifiers of the
Constitution could never have predicted that occurred in the 230 years since.
No one could have foreseen Congress would abdicate much of it’s power and
responsibilities in the 20th Century, or that the Industrial Revolution would
lead to the single greatest explosion of the human population in history, or
that we would choose to let in so many foreigners. Nobody thought each House
member would be representing a district in the hundreds of thousands at a time
when they thought one House member per 50K might be too few.

Is it democratic? Oh yes. It is the most democratic document of its time, and
few legal documents written since then could plausibly claim to be more so.

------
AFascistWorld
The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK.

Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the
Central Party School.

[http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm](http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm)

-

Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to
African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and
banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doomed in the
foreseeable future.

It hit China particularly hard because pork is their cheapest(by a large
margin) and main red meat, compounding it is that China can't deign to import
cheap NA feed crops and pork coz America is the enemy now, price is now around
3 dollars per 500g, pricier than imported Australian beef (Chinese beef is
usually twice the price of pork), and is expected to hike even more during
holiday season and Chinese new year, maintain a high level after that.

Chinese people don't care about politics, but pork prices will push basically
everything more expensive and force them to care, and that's dangerous for the
party.

~~~
steve19
A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export
certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as
more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec.

Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced
domestically.

~~~
AFascistWorld
Well, the party has stated loud and clear that China will fight America (and
the evil West) no matter what, at all costs and to the very end.

~~~
blfr
Soviet communists also used to say this.

~~~
vkou
Americans say this all the time, too. Remember McCain, and his promise of one
hundred years of war in Iraq?

~~~
RosanaAnaDana
Seems like that ones coming through on schedule.

------
phantomathkg
Don't believe in her word yet. Her word is "move a motion" when the
Legislative Council resume in October, and the Security Minister, John Lee Ka-
Chiu, submit the withdrawal to LegCo.

At that point, the pro-Beijing LegCo member can reject such motion and
continue the third reading of the bill and Beijing win.

The other possibility is where we, the Hongkonger, continue demanding the rest
of the four major demands, and CCP and Lam got so annoyed and trying to order
a curfew. Again, this is not something any of us want.

~~~
y2kenny
This is another fake move by Carrie Lam. A withdraw only requires a simple
declaration and not a motion that require a vote.

[https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-
仲有面講法治/](https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-仲有面講法治/)

~~~
dbcurtis
Link is Chinese. Just FYI to other non-Chinese readers.

What are the LegCo rules of procedure around this? Is there something we can
read in English translation?

Whether or not a motion is required seems a major point.

~~~
y2kenny
__* Updated: Office of the Chief Executive just responded to media inquiry [4]
and clarified that the withdraw will be an announcement not involving vote or
debate per rule 64. (I haven 't found an English copy yet.)

Before update:

Today's press release [1]: "The Secretary for Security will move a motion
according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council resumes."

The relevant official text of the above chinese link: Rule of Procedure of the
Legislative Council (LegCo) 64(2) and (3)[2]: "(2) The Member or public
officer in charge of a bill may, by an announcement made in Council at the
beginning of proceedings for the resumption of the second reading debate on
the bill, withdraw the bill if -

(a) the purpose of the resumption is for making such an announcement; and

(b) such purpose has been so stated in the notice of the resumption of debate
given under Rule 54(5) (Second Reading). (L.N. 74 of 2005)

(3) The Member or public officer in charge of a bill may, in making an
announcement for the withdrawal of the bill under subrule (2), address the
Council on matters relevant to the withdrawal but no debate may arise on such
an address. (L.N. 74 of 2005)"

So no motion/debate/vote is needed. People are saying the Article 23/national
security bill in 2003 was withdrawn by simple gazetting, without any motion or
debate. This is the equivalent press back then [3].

[1]
[https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201909/04/P2019090400666...](https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201909/04/P2019090400666p.htm)

[2]
[https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/procedur/content/pa...](https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/procedur/content/partk.htm#64)

[3]
[https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200309/05/0905155.htm](https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200309/05/0905155.htm)

[4]
[https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1478843-20190905.h...](https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1478843-20190905.htm)

~~~
dbcurtis
Thanks. Informative. I agree, it seems that simply gazetting a withdrawal
without debate is consistent with the rules.

~~~
y2kenny
This shows how little trust is left with the government (if any). Carrie Lam
went from, "all works has stopped" to "the bill is dead" while refusing to
follow proper process until today. Finally doing what she previously claimed
to be unnecessary, after so many pain and damages.

------
hardmaru
Five demands, not one less.

五大訴求，缺一不可。

~~~
stuaxo
Can someone translate / explain this ?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Can someone translate / explain [five demands, not one less]?_

From the article:

“Apart from the formal withdrawal of the legislation, the protesters have
asked for the government to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate
police conduct in tackling the protests, grant amnesty to those who have been
arrested, stop characterising the protests as riots, and restart the city’s
stalled political reform process.”

All that said, this is just a slogan. Different protesters put weight on
different elements of this menu. Each concession takes people off the street.
Given how reasonable many of the demands are, it makes sense for someone to be
an adult in the room to Xi’s pettiness.

~~~
ackbar03
Third and Fourth are ridiculous. I'm sorry but you don't set things on fire on
the streets, bite people's finger off, throw petrol bombs, tie up people at
the airport and say hey guys please grant amnesty, this wasn't a riot. Please
grow up and take responsibility. If you choose to make those actions you take
the consequences for them.

Fifth, I can understand and dialogue can start and bickering in legislation,
whatever, depending on definition this is achievable, but if you expect a
democracy overnight then I have a strong urge to post a link to a music video.

Hense, as per my comments below, demanding all five demands to be satisfied is
not constructive and to some degree immature.

~~~
indymike
It is not an amnesty. It is a necessary condition for a return to peace. There
is zero incentive to stop for the protesters if they are going to be jailed
for protesting. The alternative is an ever escalating oppression-protest
cycle.

~~~
poukofiru
The incentive is to avoid the PRC Army.

~~~
somebodythere
I believe this was covered by

> The alternative is an ever escalating oppression-protest cycle.

Anyway, I don't believe recreating June 4 is a wise move for PRC at this time.
The whole world is watching.

------
daneel_w
Carrie Lam has not withdrawn the law proposal. She has begun a motion that
will look into IF the proposal is going to be withdrawn. This is a world of
difference.

Additionally, from what can be read in various updates from the protesters,
the person who will be tasked with the "looking-into" will be a Hong Kong
government official, and the public will not be invited for enquiry.

------
dirtyid
Transcript of Lam's speech:

Fellow citizens,

For more than two months, protests arising from the Fugitive Offenders Bill
have continued. Our citizens, police and reporters have been injured during
violent incidents. There have been chaotic scenes at the airport and MTR
stations; roads and tunnels have been suddenly blocked, causing delay and
inconvenience to daily life. Visitors wonder whether our city is still a safe
place for travel or business. Families and friends have been under stress, and
arguments have flared. We have also seen abuse and bullying in some schools
and on the Internet. For many people, Hong Kong has become an unfamiliar
place.

Incidents over these past two months have shocked and saddened Hong Kong
people. We are all very anxious about Hong Kong, our home. We all hope to find
a way out of the current impasse and unsettling times.

Of the "five demands" raised by the public, we have in fact responded on
various occasions:

(i) First, on withdrawing the Bill. On June 15 I announced that the Bill was
suspended and later reiterated that "the Bill is dead" and that all the
legislative work had come to a complete halt;

(ii) Second, on setting up a Commission of Inquiry. The Government believes
that matters relating to police enforcement actions are best handled by the
existing and well-established Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC),
which was set up for exactly this purpose. In addition to handling complaints
against individual police officers, the IPCC has undertaken a fact-finding
study, under its powers, on the handling of large-scale public order events
that took place after June 9. One focus will be the Yuen Long incident on July
21 which attracted serious public concern. The study aims to ascertain the
facts, to assess the police handling of protests, and to make recommendations
to the Government. The IPCC has established a panel of international experts
to assist in its work and will make its findings and recommendations public;

(iii) Third, on the matter of the protest being a riot. We have explained that
in fact there is no legal effect on how such incidents are described or
categorised. The Department of Justice has assured the public that each and
every prosecution decision is based on the evidence collected, and is in
strict accordance with the relevant law and the Prosecution Code;

(iv) Fourth, on dropping charges against protesters and rioters and shelving
prosecutions. I have explained that this is contrary to the rule of law, and
is not acceptable. It also goes against the Basic Law, which states that
criminal prosecutions must be handled by the Department of Justice, free from
any interference;

(v) Fifth, on implementing universal suffrage. Indeed, this is the ultimate
aim laid down in the Basic Law. As we said before, if we are to achieve this,
discussions must be undertaken within the legal framework, and in an
atmosphere that is conducive to mutual trust and understanding, and without
further polarising society.

Our responses to the five demands have been made with full consideration of
different constraints and circumstances. I recognise that these may not be
able to address all the grievances of people in society. However, should we
all think deeply whether escalating violence and disturbances is the answer?
Or whether it is better to sit down to find a way out through dialogue.

Many would say that we need a common basis to start such a dialogue, and that
this has to start with the Chief Executive. I now present four actions to
initiate this dialogue. First, the Government will formally withdraw the Bill
in order to fully allay public concerns. The Secretary for Security will move
a motion according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council
resumes.

Second, we will fully support the work of the IPCC. In addition to the
overseas experts, I have appointed two new members to the IPCC, namely Mrs
Helen Yu Lai Ching-ping and Mr Paul Lam Ting-kwok, SC. I pledge that the
Government will seriously follow up the recommendations made in the IPCC's
report.

Third, from this month, I and my Principal Officials will reach out to the
community to start a direct dialogue. People from all walks of life, with
different stances and backgrounds are invited to share their views and air
their grievances. We must find ways to address the discontent in society and
to look for solutions.

Fourth, I will invite community leaders, professionals and academics to
independently examine and review society's deep-seated problems and to advise
the Government on finding solutions. After more than two months of social
unrest, it is obvious to many that discontentment extends far beyond the Bill.
It covers political, economic and social issues, including the oft-mentioned
problems relating to housing and land supply, income distribution, social
justice and mobility, and opportunities for our young people, as well as how
the public could be fully engaged in the Government's decision-making. We can
discuss all these issues in our new dialogue platform.

Fellow citizens, lingering violence is damaging the very foundations of our
society, especially the rule of law. Some people, though not many, attacked
the Central Government's office in Hong Kong and vandalised the national flag
and national emblem. This is a direct challenge to "One Country, Two Systems".
Both have put Hong Kong in a highly vulnerable and dangerous situation.
Irrespective of our grievances, or the depth of discontentment towards the
Government, we cannot agree or accept that violence is a solution to our
problems. Our foremost priority now is to end violence, to safeguard the rule
of law and to restore order and safety in society. As such, the Government has
to strictly enforce the law against all violent and illegal acts.

My team and I hope that the four actions just announced can help our society
to move forward. Let's replace conflicts with conversations, and let's look
for solutions.

------
tony
Random: Did you know Guangzhou (Canton) was briefly capital of China back in
the day?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_\(1912%E2%80%931949\))

There's an important political figure in the history of modern China:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-
sen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen)

He studied medicine in HK. He lived in Hawaii for a time [1]. He had a
political philosophy:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People)

To my surprise I found Sun Yat-sen is still revered in China. He was
Cantonese, like many of HK people. He has a University in GZ named after him!

If you would like to learn more about history of China this professor is
fantastic:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum),
in particular, _The Fall and Rise of China The Teaching Company, 2010_ is
really good. It's on audible.

[1]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara...](https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara.gov/pacific/san-
francisco/gallery/9995-Cabin-Sun-Yat-Sen.pdf)

~~~
akfanta
> He was Cantonese

What does that even mean? He's a dialect? Sun Yat-sen is widely regarded as
the founding father of modern China(as apposed to Qing dynasty). This is
beyond political differences. That's why he's highly regarded on both sides.
And believe or not, Kuomintang started out as a left wing party as well. They
received tons of aids from Soviet Union when they were initially founded.

~~~
kelvie
People who have roots in the province of Guangdong (previously Canton) refer
to themselves as Cantonese. A fair amount of people in HK identify both as
Hongkongers and Cantonese.

------
euix
If push comes to shove Beijing will kill the "not-so-golden-now goose".
Especially now that Xi has effectively consolidated control over the coercive
forces of the Chinese state. As long as the security and the army is with him
it will work. Worse case the SAR region is dissolved and a party official is
sent to govern directly. A lot of people said if Beijing cracked down in '89
that would be the end of the regime but that never happened. Obviously there
are parallels and differences but overall I see Hong Kong as being at least
one order of magnitude less severe than Beijing, then even some party
official's kids were protesting and they got rolled over with tanks all the
same.

I can see where the protestors are coming from, for them, its like living in a
world you increasingly don't understand and is alien. But at the same time, I
think internally they have to know this protest is just an outward
manifestation of fatalism, "shattering like a jewel". If I were a youth in
Hong Kong, I either find a way to immigrate or find a way to integrate.

~~~
lacker
_Worse case the SAR region is dissolved and a party official is sent to govern
directly._

Nah, the worst case is that some of the protesters acquire nuclear weapons,
threaten mainland China with them, Xi calls their bluff and moves in, it
wasn't a bluff, Xi blames America, nuclear World War 3 starts.

Or perhaps this peaceful protest gets quashed, and a violent insurrection that
lasts decades begins. Beijing has a lot of places to hide IEDs.

But it is possible that this dies down and Hong Kong peacefully submits to
communism.

------
m3at
Off-topic: how is this website readable without ad blocking? They seem to
attempt to make finding the bit belonging to the article a game of whack a
mole

~~~
kragen
The AMP link helps, in the browser “links”.

------
win2020big
5 demands only one been solved, hong kong gov must meet all the demands
.otherwise bomb will notsafely dismantled and things keep complexed..

------
investologia
Hong Kong case should be something kids learn at school.

People have the power to make a change no matter how impossible the situation
seems to be.

------
president
Anyone able to share how this is being framed in the Chinese media?

------
riffic
Direct action, as they say, gets the goods.

------
draw_down
Direct action works.

------
auslander
Tip for protesters: paint cocktails. Bottles with hard to remove paint. I bet
police will run out of uniforms quickly. They wont be seen on streets in
painted suits and face shields.

~~~
gruez
What paint is hard to wash off? You can remove most with acetone or paint
thinner (mineral spirits).

~~~
auslander
> Tip for protesters: paint cocktails. Bottles with hard to remove paint. I
> bet police will run out of uniforms quickly. They wont be seen on streets in
> painted suits and face shields.

Dunno, but graffiti is a pain to wash off the walls.

------
win2020big
Hong kong Gov should meet all 5 demands from hker, otherwise the bomb will
keep on fire..Thausands people still been captured illegal.. Hong kong is
great city and place for Chinese people to discuss the democracy and freedom
.. freedom land for billion people Hope..

------
doomleika
Now HKG have gave them an inch. I hope they have plenty of miles to spare.

The "five demands, no less" itself is impossible for HKG. EB itself is already
dead months ago. This will only embolden they rioters.

10 dollars on 0907 will be even worse.

