

My thoughts on the Startup Visa bill - blizkreeg
http://vinthanedar.com/2010/02/26/my-thoughts-on-the-startup-visa-bill-fail/

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tptacek
If you're a Chinese engineer that can create 4 jobs and generate $600,000 in
revenue at a company you create in the US, you should be allowed to immigate
regardless of whether a "qualified super angel investor" "sponsors" you. You
should be able to immigrate regardless of whether you can purchase a postage
stamp to request the visa. You should be able to immigrate regardless of
whether you're willing to wear pants.

Immigration carve-outs, like this one which clearly targets VC-based
companies, come with a raft of unintended consequences. Look at the massive
abuses generated by the H1-B visa program, where employers use their untenably
lopsided negotiating position to lower working conditions for everyone by
cheating immigrants. Here, we've substituted VCs for employers, and given
immigrants 2 arbitrary escape hatches (generate 5 jobs, generate $1MM in
revenue).

This is the wrong path for immigration reform.

Anything you do to make it more fair makes it more gameable. Graham likes to
point out that people like Ron Conway are excellent people indeed, who would
never game the startup visa. Who cares? You've never heard of the people who
you really have to worry about with this bill.

Anything you do to make it less gameable makes it less fair. VCs are
compensated for their investments by investment returns when their companies
are acquired or go public. We don't need to create a new form of compensation
for them by giving them a feed of entrepreneurs who are beholden to them for
their family's residency in the US.

Immigration reform is a hard problem. Immigration is broken. This problem is
urgent. We should address it. But I think this bill is a terrible way to do
it, and that it creates more harm than it ameliorates.

~~~
geebee
I agree, completely. What I'd say to the US government: take in talented
people (without worrying too much about exactly how they are talented, such as
preferring engineers or scientists), give them the same autonomy and freedom
you'd give a US citizen, and let them choose their own path in life. Quit
thinking you know what they should do, they know better than you do. They'll
impress you in ways you didn't expect, and it'll be better than you expected.

Get rid of this H1B, startup visa crap.

I've had huge disagreements with other people on HN about immigration, mainly
because I do believe in limits (I oppose unlimited immigration), and I think
that emphasizing engineering instead of general diversity of talent is
harmful. But almost everyone seems to agree that freedom and autonomy are
preferable to a government mandated purpose and skill set.

~~~
SilianRail
I've had this discussion hundreds of times with talented foreigners (India,
German, Polish, and Chinese just to name a few). They all have had the same
generic complain "why can't I just live in this country... I'm talented
enough".

I fully agree...but unfortunately for these people they are tied to larg-corp
H1B visas which restrict their freedom to leave the company and create jobs
elsewhere.

Here is the key issue...how do you decided who is talented and who is not?
This would become a highly bureaucratic issue.

~~~
geebee
"Here is the key issue...how do you decided who is talented and who is not?
This would become a highly bureaucratic issue."

I agree, and it makes me slightly uneasy when I say it. It does require what
will ultimately be a bureaucratic judgement. I'm not sure there's a good
alternative.

While I don't relish the idea of the government assuming this role, I'd still
prefer it to Oracle's HR department, which is not (and probably should not be)
accountable to me or any other member of the voting public. Guess it comes
down to Churchill's statement "Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

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amirnathoo
The startup visa bill smells like progress and I don't buy the idea that a
small step in the right direction hinders efforts at more radical reform.

However, I would like to see a more entrepreneur-centric approach that makes
the O1 and EB1 processes easier, rather than using the EB5 as a starting
point. That would benefit a wider group of entrepreneurs, though not
necessarily investors and it's the investors who seem to have the lobbying
power to make change happen.

~~~
pchristensen
I just think the investors have more to gain. An individual foreign
entrepreneur doesn't have the means to lobby the US gov't, and domestic
entrepreneurs don't have this problem. Investors might benefit dozens or
hundreds of times from this effort.

~~~
amirnathoo
Whether or not investors gain more this is still also a win for a certain
group of entrepreneurs and I can't see how it is harmful for others outside
that group. Since investors are the ones doing the legwork to lobby for this
it's natural that they're working for themselves too.

For the rest... one thing that surprised me was how much easier it seems for
Australians to setup here than Brits like myself. I speculate that our own
government could do a lot more to lobby on our behalf themselves but are more
concerned by the (short termist) fear of a serious brain drain.

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bjoernw
It might be worth looking at all the foreign students that the U.S. attracts.
I was born in Germany, did 2 years of high school in the U.S. and am about to
finish college here, too.

I got a big scholarship ($20k per year), which is subsidized by American
students. The U.S. educated me, gave me $80,000 and now there is no easy way
for me to stay and contribute to society (taxes?)?

I agree with the author but I hope this bill will at least get people thinking
about the screwed up immigration policy in this country.

~~~
SilianRail
I'm confused... what's screwed up with our country's policy? Correct me if I'm
wrong but doesn't Germany have the same policies??? I've lived in Germany for
a year of my life on a work visa from a large German corporation. They paid
for me to live, work and contribute to the companies success in Germany (and
throughout EMEA for the record). How would it be my right to just quit my job
at this corporation and go start up another company just because my original
corporation gave me the opportunity to live there.

Your contribution is to society is taxes?? Not sure I really follow you there.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Perhaps he means to pay back America by earning money and paying his way via
taxes. Instead of taking all that education investment back home.

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rmk
I think the writer is spot-on with his criticisms.

Being involved with a startup is risky business. And the risk-return premium
(since when did a _visa_ become a _reward_?) in the case of the startup visa
is pathetic.

Overall, this startup visa is a pedestrian, half-hearted effort, at best.

A green card is a much better way to incentivise.

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jboydyhacker
Immigration is such a tough issue, especially in a recession. But I love the
idea of the US being a magnet for the best and the brightest that start
companies. Many countries use qualifying criteria such as education level or
willingness to start a business as a way to gain permanent entry. We could do
worse than to adopt such policies here.

~~~
blizkreeg
The criteria here is raising money. How is that better?

~~~
yumraj
It's better because it moves the validation of the startup from USCIS, which
is definitely not capable of this, to someone like an angel or VC.

What it seems to be saying is, if someone is willing to put a specified amount
of money in the venture of an alien and hence prove to USCIS that there is
some value in having these founders come to US, then US will give them
Visa/permanent residency.

I do think that is a good idea.

Are there issues, sure, everything has issue. Name one perfect thing in the
world. But this is definitely a step in the right direction.

~~~
blizkreeg
You're missing the point. Channeling energy to fixing what is ridiculously
broken will likely yield better results. Where is the sense in creating
another monster when you've got one in your front lawn?

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blizkreeg
I'm interested in listening to what others think about the startup visa - not
swept away by the hype surrounding it, but an intelligent discussion on it's
true merits and shortcomings.

There is no question that there is a need to foster and grease the wheels of
entrepreneurship.

~~~
pchristensen
Here's a shot.

Economic growth is mostly based on big factors but those are often controlled
or influenced by a strikingly small number of people (like Henry Ford, William
Shockley, Fred Terman, Carnegie, Sears, Rockefeller, Mittal, Napoleon,
Franklin, Eli Lilly, etc). When it's winner-take-all (or -most), the
country/city/state that hosts the winner benefits greatly. So stacking your
odds to grow or attract these pivotal individuals is a valid economic
strategy.

Even if you presume that low skilled immigrants are a drain on the economy (I
think that's up for debate), how many would you trade to make sure that Elon
Musk lived in your country? How about the Brin Family? etc, etc, etc. Smart,
driven people around the world _want_ to come to America to live, work, and
build companies because it's where they think they have the best chance of
success. Losing even a handful of them could cause America to lose the fight
for the next great industry, especially since China, India, and the EU are
much more prosperous than they were for much of America's 20th century boom.

I don't think the Startup Visa is enough, but I think it's a concrete,
feasible place to start.

~~~
blizkreeg
Did you read the blog post?

