
Help, I want to quit the startup I founded - jordanleprapant
I'm cofounder for a startup. It's been about 8 months or so. It's killing me. I don't know what it is; I clash frequently with the CEO about dumb stuff. Sometimes I love the product, sometimes I hate it. I can't see anything else because I've had my head in it for so long.<p>I've always been a person with depressive tendencies, but this is slowly pushing me to the edge. I smoke weed every night otherwise I can't relax and feel good. My gf tells me I should go see a psychiatrist but that'd make finances hard. I'm getting some really low lows.<p>I don't know what to do, help.<p>PS: my ability to pay rent and visa situation are very much tied to my startup... it makes things crazy.<p>If I quit, I'm left with 0 money. I'm unemployable by now– I can't be in at work at a decent time, I can't do what a boss tells me to, I can't take any kanban bullshit– I would not survive 1 week at a tech company.<p>Should I just call it quits and try to just go teach high school math or programming at a community college or something? (or go to thailand and live on the beach for $100 a month or something)
======
richardjordan
As others have said - this isn't being censorious or moralistic about drugs -
but step 1 is stop smoking the pot. Your mind WILL clear up after a week or
two being off it and after a month or so you'll really notice the difference.

Contrary to movies like The Social Network, getting drunk and stoned all the
time doesn't fit with the stresses of running a startup I'm afraid.

Burnout is an under-talked-about problem with startups. You are far from
unemployable coming out of a startup. You just need a break and some time off
to get your head clear. Depressive tendencies are not unusual for the kind of
person drawn to entrepreneurialism.

If you can then take a break from your startup. Tell your co-founder that you
need a couple of weeks off or you're gonna burn out. If they can't make that
work then you don't want to be in a startup with them anyway, as there'll be
more ups and downs and you need to have each others' backs during the tough
times.

If this startup isn't working for you and you have no other option, getting
out is not as drastic as it seems. The company will survive. You will survive.
Things will not be as dire as you think. It just feels that way now and the
combination of pressure and anxiety makes it hard to get a better perspective.

Being stuck in something because you feel financially bound to it is not a
good thing - you'd be surprised the options that are available to you but it's
hard to see them when you're in the frame of mind you are. That's not critical
:-) ...it's a good thing - it means that when your mind starts to clear up
you'll see many more options.

I've been in Silicon Valley for about 14 years now (really? damn I'm getting
old). I've seen, and been through, every up and every down. If you want
someone to talk to for a bit of perspective, I'm happy to listen any time.
(Add a d in the middle of the two names my username at gmail for my email
address). Perspective can help :-)

Either way, don't get too down. It's not as bad as it feels right now I
promise.

~~~
jaytaylor
In this case the substance abuse is a symptom of the bigger problems. Stopping
drug use drugs is a good move, but alone will not fix him. It is escapism.

~~~
artursapek
Who down-voted this? It's very accurate.

~~~
richardjordan
Not me, but I would take issue with it. Escapism is the symptom here not the
cause. The cause of the problems is the work environment he is in. Escapism is
an unhealthy response caused by an unhealthy mental state.

Telling him he should buck and and stop whining isn't really a solution.
Trying to bully a depressed person into somehow changing things by yelling at
them adds no value as it doesn't work.

------
milkshakes
Okay, I'll bite. I want you to know that what I'm saying I'm saying with love,
as a bipolar technical co founder several times over. I find that people with
mood disorders tend to either be very bad or very good at startups, depending
on whether or not they have learned to manage their diseases. It sounds like
you jumped in without learning to manage your depression first. It should be
pretty obvious to you by now that a startup exacerbates the highs and the
lows. What might not be obvious is that once you learn to deal with your
depression, those same skills will transfer over to weathering the emotional
roller coaster ride that comes with the territory of building and scaling a
company. You have to fix your depression before you can expect anything to get
better. Focus on that, first. A doctor would help, but isn't the only
possibility. There are other options, from counselors to breakthrough.com to a
copy of _I'm O.K., You're O.K._ and a good friend to talk to. And there are
many things you can do for yourself, like exercise, take Omega 3's, keep a
journal, and practice some form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, hopefully
with a professional, but if all else fails, you would be surprised how far you
can get just winging it with someone who cares about you. I hope you feel
better, soon. But don't be surprised or discouraged if it takes a while. Maybe
this startup works out, maybe it doesn't. But if you do decide to "give up",
at least don't give up from a depressed frame of mind. You'll regret it, trust
me.

~~~
coolsunglasses
I've been a technical cofounder a couple times before and am about to take
another plunge.

I have to work around depression. Omega-3s, Vitamin D, exercise, good food,
good people, and discipline have helped me to make it close to a non-issue.

Also listen to milkshakes, he's a good guy. :)

------
staunch
Get that weed out of your system. Marijauana isn't the devil, but it can have
a very significant impact on your mental state and perception of the world.

Avoid all drugs and alcohol for a month, so your mind can adjust, and then sit
down and talk this shit through with at least two smart people you trust to
have your best interests in mind.

~~~
jjjj9999as
I hope this isn't downvoted, but you should realize that quitting marijuana
suddenly will make his stress far worse for 2-4 weeks.

His real problem is some deeper misalignment with his emotions towards things.
There's nothing bad about kanbans, they are tools used to help you get
organized and get things done. There's also nothing bad about disagreements
with your cofounder. The difficulty is that he's taking all of these things
and reacting strongly to it. In all of my experience, I've never learned to
teach this, but what he needs to learn is acceptance, and to live in the
present. It's more important than ever to just give up control for a bit, let
your cofounder do the leading. Taking on all the stress yourself is what kills
you, and if you don't trust your cofounder, then you are taking on way more
stress than you need.

------
hluska
First off, this is going to sound preachy, but you need to slow down on the
weed for a little while. I know that you think it helps you, but it only masks
symptoms and it messes up how you perceive the world. The problem with masking
symptoms is that the underlying problems are still there. I'm not saying that
weed is bad because it isn't. But in your state, it isn't good for you.

Second, ignore anyone who tells you to buck up or get over it. Seriously.
Anyone who tells you to get over it has never been where you are. And
therefore, they're not qualified to tell you a damned thing.

Third, if I were in your situation, I'd go to a doctor and try to get on anti-
depressants. Then, I'd take a couple of weeks off and just relax. Go to the
beach. Hang out at home. Play video games. Work on a project that you care
about. Do anything but the startup. Maybe after a couple of weeks you'll be
able to go back and work at a high level? Or maybe, after a couple of weeks,
you'll realize that this startup thing isn't for you.

Worst case scenario, if a couple of weeks off and some anti-depressants can
buy you another three months at this startup, that is another three months for
you to save cash, and try to interview at other companies. Best case scenario,
maybe you'll find your passion for it.

~~~
jaytaylor
re: buck up

Life is hard. You're not doing him any favors by pretending otherwise.

I'm not trying to minimize his problems. His problems are real and he needs to
put the work in the change himself on the inside. Excuses, silver-bullet
"professional" solutions and other escapist approaches are what got him into
this dire situation. More of the same is not going to turn out happy.

~~~
hluska
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here...

Often, when people are going through a bout with a mood disorder, people who
have never suffered from mood disorders will say things like 'buck up' or 'get
over it'. Nobody would ever tell a cancer patient to 'buck up' or 'get over
it'. But, people think it's acceptable to tell people with mood disorders to
just get over them.

Mental illness is very real and trying to put on a happy face and ignore the
problems is both dangerous and irresponsible. If the OP is ill, he really
should pursue treatment.

~~~
jaytaylor
Even if he seeks out professional help (I believe everyone with mental health
issues should get professional help), he's still going to ultimately have to
do a lot of work on himself. This is the reality he needs to adjust to if he
is actually serious about getting better.

------
nkallen
I know exactly what I would do in your situation.

Tell the CEO you need to go to Thailand for 8 weeks to chill out. Avoid
quitting so that you can keep your Visa. Strongly consider going to your
primary care physician (cheaper than a psychiatrist) and get on an anti-
depressant. (This will hard to do at the same time as leaving a country as
your doctor will likely not give you a two month prescription to start.) Bring
your GF with you to Thailand for some of the time unless you are comfortable
traveling alone. The travel experience may be enough to get you out of your
rut, but I would get on an anti-depressant as well. Also exercise. Twice a
week is enough.

Ignore anybody who tells you to "deal with it" or "subsist". There is more to
life than your first startup. Learning to cope with depression is a lifelong
process and isn't solved by just sucking it up. Also depression is not really
a unique and beautiful snowflake of a disease. A change of scenery and anti-
depressants will work 90% of the time.

------
jasonshen
Believe it or not, there are low-bullshit companies out there. And they are
starving for smart, nice, and capable people. Given your visa is tied to your
current startup, I would find a way to apply/interview while at your current
position for as long as you can.

Meanwhile, I would have a larger conversation with the CEO. What is it exactly
that makes working with him/her so hard? Can you discuss with them in a non
confrontational manner?

Check out the book Difficult Conversations for help on this:
[http://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-
What-M...](http://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-
Matters/dp/0143118447)

~~~
mrgordon
This. I work for a low bullshit company that is always looking to hire people
and has sponsored visas. Don't assume that your company represents every
company.

------
dinkumthinkum
Wow, well I doubt many of us can give the best advice because your situation
is so specific. Not every company is going to be doing kanban type stuff. If
you hate this I'm not sure teaching HS math or programming is going to be a
quick fix to your problem.

Perhaps looking for a new position while remaining your employed is a good
idea. If you go work at a non-startup, you may be able to earn a better salary
and have a less hectic workload and you can focus on yourself, via counseling
or whatever, for awhile until you feel like you can jump back into a startup.

------
wolfowitz
Thanks for posting this. I sometimes feel similarly, even though I don't have
a co-founder. But basically I have the same issues and fears.

I'm afraid people here are right about the weed. I drink an unhealthy amount
of beer (1-2 liters) every day to help me relax. I know it's fucking up my
head in the long run and it would be better to get off it for a while to clear
my head, but every night after a long day, even if it wasn't as productive as
I'd like (actually especially if it wasn't) I go f _ck this sh_ t, I need a
beer!

I'm still in the process of launching my first product, living on savings, so
I too feel like being in a financial stranglehold - either this works out or
I'll have to go into prostitution or something, because just as you say, there
is no freaking way I can go back to a 9 to 5 programmer job, taking order from
some boss or clients or even just getting up every morning to show up at some
office and stay there all day.

I envy people who already have achieved financial freedom with their
businesses, there is so much in life I would want to do (go scuba diving as an
example), but I feel quite penniless and very limited. A horrible feeling that
makes me feel depressed every other day.

Sometimes I'd just like to "break out" but I wouldn't know where to?! I
already quit my job to work for myself and be my own boss. I guess this
struggle is just the price I'm paying for the freedom that is hopefully to
come...

Anyway man, stay strong, you're not alone.

------
wolfowitz
On the 100$ Thailand thing that a lot of people have been asking here:

It will be hard to live off that little. I know for some Thai people this is
their salary, but they live there, have families that support them, speak the
local language, have built their own hut, are connected in the village, etc.

Even 500$ isn't that much for a tourist, but it's doable.

It is not unusual for them to charge 2, 5 or even 10 times the price for a
foreigner, compared to what a local Thai person pays for any given good or
service. Your only way around this is either learn Thai yourself, or have a
friendly local help you get some deals. My best bet would be find someone on
Couchsurfing.org willing to help you.

I once met a swiss girl while travelling through South East Asia, she was
working in the north of Thailand in some project, teaching children English.
She said to me that they were also in need of a IT teacher. That's several
years ago now and I haven't been keeping track what she's up to. The point is,
she told me that in the time living and working there, she hardly spent ANY
money at all, being a lot with locals, living with the school, learning Thai,
starting to get fair deals on food and such, etc. If that's something you want
to contemplate, the organization she is part of is: <http://www.baandoi.org>

------
antoinevg
The OneWeekCure(tm) for burnout:

Step 1) Quit the weed on a Friday evening and call in sick for the following
week.

Step 2) Do nothing but lie in bed for Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday.

Step 3) Spend Thursday, Friday working in bed.

Step 4) Take your GF out and spend as little time at home over the weekend as
possible.

Step 5) Go back into the office on Monday and reflect on how different it all
feels.

Repeat as necessary and always remember:

The cost of not having you around for a week a couple times a year pales in
comparison to the cost of finding a replacement for you!

------
duaneb
Maybe grad school? Vacation? Learn the clarinet? It sounds like you definitely
need some kind of escape from your job.

I highly, highly recommend seeing a therapist if not a psychiatrist. Your
health insurance may cover that. If not, then what you're paying now for drugs
you should try spending on a therapist one week, or whatever. At least give
one a shot, it's amazing how much of your depression is in your head and can
be resolved by working it out with a professional. And actual depression
medication may also help when the therapy doesn't, and it will almost
certainly work more consistently for you than weed. I won't say give up the
stuff as it does seem to legitimately work for some people, but it also has
bad effects that are easy to overlook when depressed because it's more of the
same when you're not actively high: lack of energy, lack of motivation, lack
of appetite. It's pretty nasty if you're unaware of it, and it doesn't mean
you can't smoke again if you can figure out how to address those issues. But
you should face this specific problem with as clear a head as you can manage.

But seriously, you are more important than your startup. Don't ever convince
yourself otherwise, if Zuckerberg were feeling this shitty and I knew that
facebook would blow up I would tell him the same thing. If you aren't making
enough money at this place to pay for a therapist you might as well make that
money doing something more relaxing, especially if you have this love/hate
relationship with your startup; you can't be working at your potential if this
is the case.

Anyway, if you're in a place now where you realize that there's a problem AND
you're motivated enough to do something about it by posting here, then you're
in a place where you have the power to address it before it really nails you
later. It's not going to go away if you don't change anything. If you need
anything, feel free to give me an email or give me a call.

------
CyberFonic
How did you become a cofounder if you and the "CEO" don't see eye to eye? Tell
me I'm wrong: Comes across like you got suckered into working for very little
for some "business visionary".

Must be getting real cheap weed. Surely seeing a psychiatrist would be a
better "investment" for your mental health.

Could you elaborate on why you wouldn't last 1 week at a tech company?

~~~
jordanleprapant
We knew each other a little, and he was looking for a tech cofounder. I
accepted. The "cofounder" title he offered me seemed shiny and respectable,
now it almost feels misleading.

I am definitely working for a "business visionary", although he pays me
decently and we have decent traction.

I wouldn't last a week at a tech company because I have huge troubles with
authority and policies and rules etc. I've never had a "real job" in my life;
always in not very interesting organizations (including academia) where my
lack of discipline was tolerated.

~~~
throwaway14124
> because I have huge troubles with authority and policies and rules etc. Are
> you 15? You sound tremendously immature.

~~~
duaneb
Not all such problems can be traced to maturity. Some people just don't do
well in environments when your behavior is controlled. Just because people
learn to deal with it eventually doesn't mean it's related to maturity. Some
people are born into a cubicle, others prefer less structured environments and
continually fail at traditional jobs until that happens. Independence is
incredibly valuable and I don't fault him at all for needing it more than the
rest of society.

EDIT: And I really hope you wouldn't say this to his face, I hope you
understand what you're doing. Calling him immature only makes his problems
worse, he came to HN for help and got criticized unfairly.

------
cortexman
It can be tough but this is real life. You just have to deal with it. Don't
sabotage your position - instead start planning a way out. You CAN make it in
a tech company, it will just be a shift in habits. In the meantime work hard
and exercise. Weed can exacerbate depressive symptoms especially in lieu of
exercise. Best of luck my friend.

------
neilk
Yeah, the Bay Area will do that to you, especially if you're on a visa. Your
status, self-worth, and even your ability to stay in touch with your friends
are all tied to giving some job 60-70 hours a week. I sympathize.

I think you're aware of this, but you're engaging in very unrealistic, all-or-
nothing thinking. If you aren't in THIS startup at THIS time then you're
totally unemployable and you waste your life on a beach in Thailand. Take some
time off to clear your head (if I were you I wouldn't up the weed quotient,
but that's me). I don't know that you need to jet off to a different country,
if you're in California there are so many great places to relax within a few
days' drive.

------
Brajeshwar
Not this bad but I have had situations where I want to quit everything, I was
questioning everything I intend to do.

Why not take a long-ish no-work break. Leave everything for a while. Go
somewhere - Thailand for a month or meditate in the Ashrams of Dharamsala[1],
or the Osho Ashram[2] in Pune, India.

I'm sure your co-founder (CEO) will understand. After your break, go back -
refreshed and ready to get back to work or be able to take a decision on what
you'd do next.

1\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharamsala>

2\. <http://www.osho.com/>

------
tzisc
Don't be afraid.

Subsist. Accept that you may need to prolong the status quo for a period of
time.

Conquer your vision, (i.e., accept its limitations and buy into what the CEO
wants, or learn how to demonstrate value via Dale Carnegie or Ray Dalio's
methodologies) or plan your exit strategy. With specifics.

Or alternatively, you could conquer yourself. But probably not in the
environment you're in.

If you need someone to talk to, email me for my number. kqtgtq3pk at hushmail
dot com. Tell me as much of your story in as few words as possible so I know
it's you.

I'll be asleep in a few hours for around nine hours because it's late here.
Good luck, my heart is with you.

------
logn
No, stick it out and start demanding change from your CEO and improvement in
the company. That's why you're on board right? It's a startup. You're
experimenting with business models and should be ready to change. So change!
Make it a success. Nothing is written in stone in a startup. At the least you
have some source of money and a work environment you enjoy. Make it better.

Also, seriously, the top comments are all about weed? Come on. There are more
important issues such as clashes with the CEO and sucky product.

------
sharemywin
1\. Take a 1 week vacation and decompress. 2\. Who's picking the fights you or
the CEO? If it's you don't sweat the small stuff. 3\. Try to clearly define
who decides what.if things get heated agree to walk away and try again later.
4\. Don't give up you'll regret it. 5\. stop smoking pot and get an exercise
bike espcially if finances are tight. 6\. after you've done all of this if you
still need to get out then come up with plan B first before you jump.

------
rob-alarcon
Watch this video, it's about the history of the founders of Airbnb, sometimes
I feel like you do right now, and found "inspiration" in histories like that.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOytubycHOg>

I also run a half-marathon or marathon each month, that helps a lot.

Keep on.

------
mrgordon
You're probably looking at $500 a month for the Thai beach situation, but yes
it's good deal!

~~~
duaneb
Damn, I gotta go to thailand.

------
auctiontheory
I could tell you exactly what to do (find yourself a good therapist, cut out
the weed, and get an anti-depressant prescription) but instead I'll ask: what
would _you_ choose if you were taking a ten- or twenty-year perspective on
your decision?

------
orph
I know how you feel. Txt me when you need an ear. We'll hang out, get drunk.
415-810-4267.

~~~
neilk
I have this vision of you meeting the guy and it turns out to be your
cofounder. Awkward. :)

------
anizan
Listen to your girlfriend before you listen to any of us Go to a good psych
and see if you possibly have bi-polar disorder. Startups come and go but a
disease undiagnosed will haunt you forever

------
pknight
Be kind to yourself and build better habits and routines for yourself before
making big decisions. If you're more grounded and centered it will be easier
to see things in a better perspective.

------
joezhou
If you are in a startup, you've already won. You've already done what millions
of people dream of doing but never had the balls to do. So be proud of what
you've achieved! You are awesome.

------
crashoverdrive
In the words of Kenny Powers:

When my ass was 19 years old, I changed the face of professional baseball. I
was handed the keys to the kingdom. Multi-million dollar deals. Endorsements.
Everyone wanted a piece of my shit. Just a man with a mind for victory and an
arm like a fucking canon. But sometimes when you bring the thunder, you get
lost in the storm. But a true champion, face to face in his darkest hour will
do whatever it takes to rise above. A man fights, fights, and fights some
more. Because surrender is death, and death is for pussies. And my ass ain't
no pussy. My ass is a fucking champion. — Kenny Powers

------
chgx
FYI, you can't survive in Thailand with $100 a month..

~~~
paulocal
i was hoping thailand would be the answer :(

------
jaytaylor
Stop being lazy. Nobody respectable ever got anywhere by doing what is most
comfortable for them. This community is filled with hard-working collaborative
people who when made aware of their own faults work hard to improve. Your use
of "can't" is your biggest problem. If your belief system continually revolves
around "cants" you will not ever be happy in this line of work.

~~~
richardjordan
I think that's an unpleasant and harsh response.

What part of the post suggested to you that laziness was the problem?

~~~
jaytaylor
Laziness:

".. I can't be in at work at a decent time, I can't do what a boss tells me
to, I can't take any kanban bullshit– I would not survive 1 week at a tech
company."

"Should I just call it quits and try to just go teach high school math or
programming at a community college or something? (or go to thailand and live
on the beach for $100 a month or something)"

~~~
richardjordan
That's someone who is depressed from overwork talking irrationally.

Startups are populated by folks who cannot function well in a more structured
environment and wrinkle against rules.

Escapism is a fairly typical symptom of someone too depressed to have
perspective on their problems, and once they get a handle on the depression
the desire for escapist solution wanes.

~~~
jaytaylor
While that is possible and probably fairly common in our line of work, pay
close attention to some of the other red flags from what he's said. For
example:

"I wouldn't last a week at a tech company because I have huge troubles with
authority and policies and rules etc. I've never had a "real job" in my life;
always in not very interesting organizations (including academia) where my
lack of discipline was tolerated."

~~~
richardjordan
Again, nothing suggested laziness. You're just making a mean-spirited and
bullying attack on someone at a moment of weakness with no real purpose.
People who lack focus and struggle in structured environments are not the same
as people who are lazy. It sounds to me like the OP is doing overworking not
being lazy. Your comments on here appear very angry and aggressive towards
someone who is going through a difficult time.

Ad hominem attacks on the guy help no-one.

------
L0j1k
Whatever anybody says -- of course my advice should also be lumped into the
"with a grain of salt" category -- start jogging. Jog around the block (yes,
half a mile to start). Stretch a little before and after. Repeat this twice a
week and don't give up. Even the TINIEST bit of exercise can have TREMENDOUS
effects on your depression. I've been at rock bottom, brother. My ex-wife left
me for some other dude on Christmas Eve in 2008. At the time, I was a gunner
on a convoy security mission on a really shitty road in Iraq. Running helped
me through that and more (much more). Exercise is the fastest, cheapest way to
get yourself a one-up on the depression.

~~~
L0j1k
Also, as a regular cannabis user, I want to voice my opinion that a little bit
of weed at night before you lay down is certainly no worse than the person who
has a little night cap before bed, or wine with dinner. It gets demonized
quite a lot, and I have to say that as long as you don't let it get in the way
of you dealing with these problems, it's harmless (without advice from your
doctor saying otherwise). THAT BEING SAID escapism with any substance is not
healthy, especially in your current headspace...

