
Turn Prisons into Colleges - brosirmandude
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/06/opinion/prisons-colleges-education.html
======
jawns
This whole piece reads like it's written by someone who has never set foot in
an actual, general-population prison.

The scene it sets is of a collegial environment of highly motivated people who
yearn to learn, and would commit themselves to pursuing a college degree, but
for lack of access.

In reality, a large swath of the incarcerated population is not motivated to
pursue additional education, or really any program that might help them get
their lives back on track.

Part of it is because they frequently have underlying mental-health problems,
addictions, learning disorders, or intellectual disabilities that often go
undiagnosed or untreated in prison, and that must be addressed before they can
get clear-headed enough to pursue their GED, let alone a college degree. Or
they see a high-school or college diploma as pointless, either because they
know the deck's stacked against them, or they don't know any other way of
living.

So, it may be completely true that higher education is correlated with lower
rates of recidivism, but that doesn't mean that increasing access to education
_causes_ lower recidivism.

Rather, it likely means that people who are able and motivated to pursue
higher education have lower rates and lower severities of mental-health issues
or learning disorders, and a lack of those underlying issues predicts lower
recidivism.

~~~
whataretensors
Prison was put in place as a catch all when we didn't understand all the ways
humans could be broken. Now we have a better idea, but we don't use that
information. Instead low iq career criminals are incarcerated with high iq
crimes of passion like Hans Reiser. Then you add drug addicts and child
molesters to the mix.

Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free.
If he could have full access to a computer he would have likely continued to
learn and build things. Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of
society together into a broken system who's main role is retribution, which
IMO is a human instinct we should fight against not codify.

It seems a lot like the public school system in it's general lack of
differentiation in regards to inputs(prisoners). In terms of a learning
system, it's diverged.

~~~
foldr
> Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was
> free.

Why not? He killed one already for no good reason. His high IQ just means he
has less of an excuse. It doesn't make him a better person.

~~~
homonculus1
I'm sick of the apologia for these unforgivable criminals. By all means
separate them from each other based on circumstances, for their own good, but
if you murder people you're unfit to live in society, full stop.

~~~
derefr
The GP's point, I think, is that "unfit to live in society" doesn't mean "must
live in some sort of hell-hole." Prison can just be another, slightly worse
society. Like penal colonies were, before we stopped doing those.

~~~
wils1245
I thought the point was that we should look at IQ in determining punishment
and risk of recidivism. Which is a deeply misguided idea.

~~~
nate_meurer
I can see how you got that, but it's not at all how I read it. I don't think
_whataretensors_ is proposing that Hans Resier's abilities should lessen his
punishment, but rather that we should allow him to continue using his
abilities during his incarceration, and possibly contribute to society instead
of being dead weight.

------
creep
> learning gives us a different understanding of ourselves and the world
> around us, and it provides us tools to become more empathetic

This is the key. I really don't believe punishment works. I'm on mobile at the
moment so it would be tedious to find sources, but I will do so later when I
have time.

But a great example for this is with parenting. A child doesn't learn why
changing their behavior is beneficial to them outside the context of
punishment if punishment is used. They simply learn to hide the behavior,
because it is the punishment itself that provides the negative feedback.
Showing the child why a specific behavior is detrimental to them gives them
negative feedback about the behavior itself. One of the best ways to show this
to children is by appealing to their empathy. "Would you like it if X did that
to you?" That's a simplistic example.

But in education, the examples are numerous. And for reasons that may be
obvious prisoners won't necessarily be in education for say, a math degree,
but they would be taking courses in history and philosophy, and the like.
Humanities courses give the perspective that crime-affected communities often
lack. And they give hope and possibility by exploring all the realms of human
thought

Incarceration is inhumane. It does not work. How can someone possibly have
hope for changing their behavior when they are treated like an animal in a
cage? it does nothing for reinforcement since their freedom after a served
sentence is likely to entail returning to a broken community.

~~~
badpun
> How can someone possibly have hope for changing their behavior when they are
> treated like an animal in a cage?

If I were treated like an animal in a cage, I sure as hell would not like to
go back to prison again.

~~~
Cyberdog
No ex-convict wants to return to prison. However, they've just been put in a
position where all of their peers are also criminals, and getting a well-
compensated job after release is incredibly difficult, especially if they do
not already have specialized skills and education. So it's very easy to fall
back into bad habits, especially if that's how they were paying the bills.

Destigmatizing a criminal record when it comes to hiring (or anything else for
that matter) would help a lot, but the government doesn't seem too interested
in helping out with that (though I hope the current low unemployment rates
help in this regard). Prison education programs would also help. If the
government is going to lock people in little boxes with other criminals,
stigmatize them for the rest of their lives, and seriously contend the point
of it is to reduce recidivism, they need to be doing this sort of education at
the very least.

~~~
gerbilly
> No ex-convict wants to return to prison.

Some do. Perhaps the most famous example is Charles Manson who said he'd been
in prison for so much of his life that it was his home.

Sorry I forget the source, but one longtime prisoner said that after release,
it's like he was still in jail, because after being imprisoned, the real
prison is in your mind.

Incarceration becomes a mindset.

With three strikes laws locking people up for life for relatively minor third
offences, this should give us pause.

Putting these examples aside, there is a lot of evidence that punishment
simply does not work.

For example many states have the death penalty for capital crimes, sometimes
by the medievally brutal electric chair[1], and still people continue to
commit murder.

[1] Like burning at the stake with all the modern conveniences.

~~~
Cyberdog
I think Charles Manson might be a bit of a statistical outlier.

------
drewmol
I'm a felon. Trafficking Marijuana. I considered the consequences, and knew it
was very unlikely I would get sentenced to jail time, so for me the
consequences played a role in the amount of marijuana I was willing to
traffic(i.e. not enough to be likely jail time) What I vastly underestimated
is the long term reduction in earning potential, and the level of instantly
shut doors/disrespect that comes along with being a felon.

Anyways, I moved to tech bc it seemed like the easiest place to get a decent
paying job w/ said conviction. I'm a white, well-spoken, intelligent and
motivated male with a great family and support structure, connections, etc.
and for me it is/was/will be incredibly difficult to overcome, so I can just
imagine what it's like for less (attractive?) candidates. I will work my way
into the position where I can take the extra risk involved in hiring people
with criminal records if they are otherwise good cantidates, bc I've been
through it.

Providing prison education is pivotal to helping the recidivism rate, as is
promoting attitude changes toward hiring _criminals. (_ the ones who got
caught)

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
That is heart breaking. Hopefully you live in a state where the records of
Marijuana offenders will be expunged eventually.

~~~
mieseratte
> Hopefully you live in a state where the records of Marijuana offenders will
> be expunged eventually.

I don't necessarily disagree with nixing arrests for personal amounts / use of
Marijuana, even the "I sold my buddy a dime bag worth that one time," but once
we get into serious commercial activity is it not valid to keep those
particular convictions?

~~~
nate_meurer
Simply, no. Marijuana prohibition is bad law, and convictions just for selling
and possessing weed, unaccompanied by any other criminal activity, are morally
and ethically unjustifiable. When the law dies, as it surely will, society
will be well served if those convictions are expunged, restoring their victims
to full access to commerce and employment.

~~~
mieseratte
Again, I don't particularly feel strongly about it, but it _feels_ off that
someone trafficking large amounts of a drug, even if it's just pot, are let
off. It demonstrates a clear willingness to to disregard law for personal
gain.

In general, I don't really give a shit about drugs or drug use. Perhaps the
feeling is just years of Drug War indoctrination, but it feels wrong and I'm
trying to grapple with "Why" by asking.

~~~
nate_meurer
> "clear willingness to to disregard law for personal gain"

You mean, the way _you_ disregard the law when you speed in order to get
somewhere sooner? Yes, I'm equating speeding with the use of marijuana. And
I'd argue that speeding is actually way more dangerous.

I apologize if this comes off as harsh, but the sentiment you express has
contributed to horrific abuse of the legal system for decades. Too many people
feel generally like you do, willing to put up with wildly disproportionate
punishments for no other reason than _a law was broken_ , even if they don't
really think the activities should be considered criminal.

Think about what you're saying: you don't really care much about the moral
standing of the law, but you don't mind that folks prosecuted under it have
their lives destroyed (sorry if I've distorted your position).

Remember, there's a lot of devil in the details of drug law. Florida, for
example, assumes intent to distribute if you possess more than 20 grams of
weed, allowing up to 5 years in prison and ten grand in fines. If the
prosecutor finds a school, public housing, or even a fucking park within a
thousand feet of your arrest, they can put you in prison for up to 15 years.

It's good that you're not a drug warrior type, and the american public as a
whole is definitely coming to its senses regarding marijuana. But what kind of
society puts up with destroying peoples lives for the sake of laws that they
don't really feel strongly about?

~~~
drewmol
Thanks Nate, I have to consider my position and how people perceive my
intentions when discussing it, so I can't be as harsh as I think the situation
necessitates to change opinions. And even with ban the box laws like CA has
recently passed, with public record scraping services stored in private
databases,the info is not going away even w expungment(not sure that it
should). We need to change perception if for no other reason than: IT COST A
FUCK TON OF MONEY to support people who don't participate in the economy,
lifelong barriers/stigma very much alienate people from reintegration.

~~~
nate_meurer
I admire your toughness, or magnanimity, or whatever word I'm looking for. I'm
not sure I'd end up with as positive an attitude as you appear to have. That
thing you said about trying to get to a place where you can prevent others
from being unfairly discriminated against... that says so much about you I
think. Even if you never get to that position, you've managed to turn a
viciously unfair circumstance into something strong and positive for yourself.
Much respect

~~~
drewmol
Wow, I've never been called magnanimous before, lets go with that;-).

>Even if you never get to that position I will. I've recently been sucessfully
asserting my way into those decisions where I am now, so I'm close already.

I really appreciate the compliment, the respect is mutual.

It's taken time, effort and reflection to not be bitter about it. Bitteress is
not helpful, plus: Everyone loves a comeback!

------
eviltandem
For your crime you are sentenced to 3 phd's in the field of astrophysics with
no chance of parole.

May God have mercy on your soul.

~~~
rajacombinator
Underrated comment ... education could very well be more punitive than the
alternative!

------
bruceb
At a previous job I had to turn people away that had felonies. Some of them
just had drug related ones. Felt terrible about it.

If we are going to expect felons to reform and get a job and support
themselves using legal means, well we have to make sure they have at least
some opportunity at doing so.

Seems we could have thousands MOOCs available on non internet connected
computers. These inmates should spend their time reflecting, studying, and
working.

Who wants to spent another $35k a year when they get locked up again, instead
providing them with near free education that might help them not come back to
prison?

~~~
lev99
Part of the problem is it is legal to discriminate against felons and so many
paths to success in our society are closed to them. A person with a felony is
denied the pursuit of happiness.

~~~
banned1
Why is it a problem?

Wouldn’t you want to know the background of a person before hiring a nanny for
your child?

Now change nanny to employee and child to business.

~~~
khedoros1
Wait...are we talking an employee in the sense of a CEO, or in the sense of
some lower-level position? First, my child is more precious than my business.
Second, a nanny has much more direct influence over a child than an employee
does over a business (except in the case of particularly-powerful employees,
of course). Third (and ignored by the person you responded too, as well), not
all felonies are created equal.

~~~
banned1
Does it matter? What if it is a low level position and the person stabs
someone at the first disagreement? Why do I have to take that risk?

~~~
khedoros1
> Does it matter?

Stupid question. Yes.

> What if it is a low level position and the person stabs someone at the first
> disagreement?

Why do you assume that "felon = violent"?

> Why do I have to take that risk?

Every hire is a risk. Running a business is a risk in the first place. If
you're risk-averse, you probably aren't running a business, anyhow. So, why do
you take that risk? Presumably because you've concluded during the interview
that they can perform the task that you're hiring for better than the other
candidates. If they can't, then it's a moot point anyhow, isn't it?

~~~
banned1
Why is the question stupid?

I can assume whatever I want if I am doing the hiring right? After all, it’s
my money which is being risked. Simply put, a business owner can hire whoever
they want in practice.

Every hire is a risk, but hiring a felon is an increased risk. It is possible
that it is an increased reward too, but with so many available candidates, why
bother?

------
SamReidHughes
"a study published in 2013 by the right-leaning RAND Corporation showing that
inmates who took classes had a 43 percent lower likelihood of recidivism and a
13 percent higher likelihood of getting a job after leaving prison."

Of course, these are the more capable people in the first place. Most people
in prison are too stupid for college. A much better solution is to limit
college education to a fixed single digit percentage of the population so it
can't be used as an expensive arms race of a signaling mechanism by everybody
else.

~~~
Cyberdog
> Most people in prison are too stupid for college.

[citation needed] on this incredibly inflammatory comment. Yes, people tend to
end up in prison after a chain of bad decisions, but that doesn't necessarily
mean they're unintelligent to the point of being incapable of learning things.

Arguably, a successful drug dealer has far more real-world experience in
economics than a college grad on the topic.

~~~
randomdata
I will point out that learning things and college are not the same thing. I
feel that I know how to learn, but I am too 'stupid' to learn in a scholastic
environment. It becomes a frustrating experience as you're left scrambling to
learn using more effective methods in the off-hours and wasting your time the
rest of the time. And I imagine frustration is already high among those in
jail before you try to add more on them.

~~~
khedoros1
Well, true; it's completely possible to get through college without picking up
anything lasting.

Class-time is a minority of the learning time. The basic idea is to gain a
basic familiarization before class, then (during class) hopefully have the
professor explain the same ideas in a different way and provide an opportunity
to ask clarifying questions. Assignments should be structured to illustrate
the concepts and encourage reaching a bit past what was taught. You shouldn't
be doing the bulk of the learning in the classroom itself, IMO. Homework is
for you. Tests are a final feedback of the result of the learning process.

I guess my point is that learning in the "off-hours" is kind of the intention
(and is part of the best-case scenario, as described above). 2 hours of
lecture implies 4 hours (or more) of extra work, done outside of the
classroom, on your own or with others. School should provide structure and
guidance to learning (providing a schedule, and an appropriate order of
concepts to learn). Learning itself is a separate process.

~~~
randomdata
_> Assignments should be structured to illustrate the concepts and encourage
reaching a bit past what was taught._

I think this is the root problem. The structure never seemed right. It didn't
assist with learning as it was never the appropriate topics at the appropriate
time. Once you get away from college learning is _so much easier_ as you are
not dependent on the linear timeline set out by someone else. And because
you're actually learning, which is one of the most pleasurable things going,
you are excited to keep reaching for more. College fosters none of that.

I understand that learning on your own time is part of the package, but the
problem, which I may not have effectively communicated, is that you are still
left learning the 'wrong way' as you still have to stick with the course
requirements while also trying to learn the 'right way' because that is the
only way you are going to learn anything at all. As it is, two hours of
lecture is two hours that could have been spent actually learning instead of
wasting time.

If you are smart, I am sure that none of this is a problem and the structure
of the courses are most likely to your benefit. But for someone who is stupid
like me, it just doesn't work. Literally _everyone_ can learn. Not everyone is
smart.

~~~
khedoros1
For me, college was a good guide to find ideas that I might not have found on
my own, or might have found in a suboptimal order. Hearing the basic ideas
always got me excited enough to dig on my own, see how they're used, and what
they build up to.

> As it is, two hours of lecture is two hours that could have been spent
> actually learning instead of wasting time.

The most wasted lectures that I attended were the ones that I went to, but did
something else instead of asking questions. There aren't many situations where
you've got a roomful of people at your level or above (including an expert in
the subject) that you can pose questions to.

> But for someone who is stupid like me, it just doesn't work.

Where did you get the idea that you're stupid? I don't see any evidence of
that, and thinking of yourself that way is going to damage any of your
efforts. Stupid people aren't generally the kinds that come onto HackerNews to
have discussions about the nature of education.

~~~
randomdata
_> There aren't many situations where you've got a roomful of people at your
level or above (including an expert in the subject) that you can pose
questions to._

While I understand the value of that in theory, in practice the questions are
not available at the time the room is. This makes it mostly worthless. I
understand people like you have minds that work in a different way, and that
you are able to thrive in that environment. I don't want to minimize the
benefit to someone like you, but you must also realize that not everyone is
like you.

 _> Where did you get the idea that you're stupid?_

Too stupid _for college_. I don't know if anyone is truly stupid in every way.
Everyone has their speciality.

I would suggest that, given how hard education is pushed in the US that there
is a reason that the attainment rate is still just ~30% for four or more year
programs and ~40% for two or more year programs: Because most people simply
are not capable of thriving in that environment.

I don't see that as a problem though. There are many ways to skin the cat.
College doesn't need to be for everyone, and it is faulty logic to think that
we should push it on everyone. Especially to those in jail who, statistically,
are likely among the group that are not suited for it in the first place.

I do agree that we should do more to enable learning for those people. But,
again, learning is not the same thing as college.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yes! College is run by ... wait for it ... people who were good at College. So
its a tight positive feedback loop. There's nearly nobody there who empathizes
with the rest of us. And it spins on its merry way, getting stranger and
stranger.

~~~
khedoros1
I guess what I don't understand quite what you mean.

The lectures themselves weren't that useful to me, although learning to
interpret the pattern of confusion was invaluable (like looking at a code
diff, where it doesn't tell you what the problem is, just what the difference
is). Often, even the textbooks weren't (another exercise in pattern matching,
and comparing with other sources). I spent a lot of time learning the material
in my own way, then learning the mapping between my understanding and the way
that it was being taught in class.

The topics in class acted as a decent map of the "tech tree" involved in the
pile of topics to study, and a possibly-appropriate order to learn them in.

Everyone thinks differently. Do you have a more efficient idea an "expert" to
convey a large number of concepts to a large group of people? What's your
preferred method of learning?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I'd prefer to learn from a 'teacher'. The sort of person who specializes in
transmitting knowledge, adapting to the learners issues, bridging gaps between
one concept and another.

Learning from folks who did well in college means they may think everyone will
do well if they repeat their experience. Which is a far cry from 'teacher'.
Heck, its not even 'expert'.

------
BrainInAJar
This reads a lot like Pearson Education & such just want an in on the wildly
profitable private prison industry

~~~
neutronicus
What's the only boondoggle bigger than Higher Education in the United States?

~~~
cuckcuckspruce
I've not seen Pearson sniffing around the healthcare market.

~~~
manquer
Pearson does a lot of clinical assessments

------
xamuel
Idea for a novel: Faced with a fierce job market, young academics scramble for
prison jobs. To cut costs, they are roomed and boarded with the very prisoners
they're there to teach...

~~~
JoeDaDude
Add to that desperate young people looking to get ahead. They commit a crime
in order to receive free education while incarcerated.

------
kevin_b_er
This provides something for free to an inmate. The philosophy of those like
Sheriff Arpaio and those politically aligned with him run counter to this.
Where inmates are limited in water while living in tents outside in order to
save money. Until we can extricate the culture of cruel and unusual punishment
in the name of greed by those like Joe Arpaio, we'll not overcome the
political hurdles of doing something nice for an inmate to reduce recidivism.

------
jpao79
Here are some interesting initiatives with interesting challenges:
[https://www.khanacademy.org/resources/out-of-school-time-
pro...](https://www.khanacademy.org/resources/out-of-school-time-programs/out-
of-school-programs-case-studies/a/use-case-correctional-facilities)

"Students who find themselves in prisons, jails, and correctional facilities
have varied and intermittent educational backgrounds. Correctional facilities
can use Khan Academy to support a variety of programs, including credit
recovery, GED preparation, and adult continuing education. These facilities
tend to be high-security environments with extremely limited Internet
connectivity, if any.

Idaho Correctional Facilities - KA Lite, an offline version of Khan Academy,
is impacting learners in the Idaho Department of Correction. The first 20
prisoners using Khan Academy exercises offline all passed the math portion of
their GED course—the first time that had ever happened."

KA-Lite seems to be maintained by the Learning Equality organization:

[https://learningequality.org/about/](https://learningequality.org/about/)

"In the summer of 2012, our co-founder Jamie Alexandre was interning at Khan
Academy when he and a fellow intern had the idea to bring Khan Academy offline
using a low-cost Raspberry Pi."

[https://learningequality.org/kolibri/](https://learningequality.org/kolibri/)
"Kolibri makes high quality education technology available in low-resource
communities such as rural schools, refugee camps, orphanages, non-formal
school systems, and prison systems."

------
chibg10
One concern I've always had when people discuss recidivism rates is that it's
sort of impossible to find an effective control group, no?

Suppose you're fresh out of prison with no good employment options. My guess
is that, when people talk about recidivism rates, that either look at it
nominally or they try to control for socioeconomic status. But apart from
socioeconomic status, I can see two major factors that might cause recidivism:
1) the personality that led you to end up in prison in the first place, and 2)
the effect on your personality that your time in prison had.

Since the only way to study the personality of the prisoner population is to
do so _after_ they go to prison, it seems impossible to isolate either effect.
Maybe there's a clever study design that let's you do it.

Failing that though, it's sort of dishonest to assume that rehabilitation
attempts or changing the prison environment in some way would be successful in
reducing recidivism rates "if we would only try them."

What is the actual evidence on the efficacy of rehabilitation programs?

~~~
canadaduane
We can compare prison systems across populations. Bastøy prison in Norway has
a recidivism rate of just 16%. It seems that all things being equal (i.e. if
you can assume that "personality" averages out of the statistical equation
when comparing across human populations) then they are doing something very
important and remarkable for their people there. See
[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-
norwe...](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/04/bastoy-norwegian-
prison-works)

~~~
chibg10
I think it's interesting exploratory work, but you can't just assume that the
"personality" of Norwegian prisoners is the same as American ones. There are
vast environmental and cultural between the two populations that play a causal
role in personalities; to assume that personality differences would "average
out" is not a reasonable assumption.

I don't mean to say that the Norwegian model can't or wouldn't work in the US,
but it can't be considered any more than "exploratory" from a US policy
perspective.

------
truculation
The evolutionary reason prison exists is because it is cheaper to society and
government than riot and vendetta. As society grows more peaceful perhaps the
balance will tip in favour of no prisons and they'll be shut down by the
powers that be.

------
remir
In my opinion, teaching meditation to inmates could change prisons in a
significant way. You give them the tool that will allow them to cultivate
inner peace, rewire their brain plus understand their own behavior by
disengaging the "ego".

------
WheelsAtLarge
Maybe not colleges but schools. Someone I know went to prison. He was there
for 5 plus years but learned absolutely nothing. Like it's been said, he came
out worse than before.

I like the prison to become learning institutions rather that punishment
factories. Continuous punishment makes people more resilient in a sense that
they will fight and be willing to take more punishment and reject whatever
they are being punished for. Eventually, these people get out, it would be
nice if they were better than when they went in.

------
ggg9990
In each state there is probably one prison worth of people who are capable of
earning a college degree. They should be put in one place and encouraged to do
so.

The rest are mostly shiftless and incorrigible and prison makes them worse
people. They should either be released or kept in prison until dead. They
should not be “stewed” in prison and then released upon you and me.

------
devy
This reminds of the Shon Hopwood story from last year's CBS 60 Minutes.[1]

[1]: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meet-a-convicted-felon-who-
beca...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meet-a-convicted-felon-who-became-a-
georgetown-law-professor/)

------
Sonnol53
Education is really the key to more balanced equality. Giving "prisoners" more
opportunities and options is a must.

------
penglish1
First, do no harm.

But, sure, this seems like a good idea.

But first, stop all the horrible stuff, currently hurting prisoners.

------
sbussard
It's symbolic of student loan debt

------
Cyberdog
> Imagine if prisons looked like the grounds of universities. Instead of
> languishing in cells, incarcerated people sat in classrooms and learned
> about climate science or poetry — just like college students.

In general I think this is a great idea, but for God's sake, teach them useful
things that will help them get a job once the state lets them out of their
cage, not crunchy liberal arts pablum and highly theoretical science that will
get them nowhere career-wise. I say this as someone who made the mistake of
going into debt to get a degree in English literature.

~~~
moosey
I do think there should be some English studies, but it should not be a
primary focus. Reading books is a great way to help build empathy, and
understanding how to read _well_ is a valuable tool in its own right.

~~~
Cyberdog
Okay, yes, to be clear, I don't disagree with you here. Certainly literature
and especially grammar classes can be a part of this. But if the government is
going to steal my money to pay for locking people in little boxes, but then
allows them to get degrees in poetry and climatology instead of veterinary
medicine or computer science, well, that's doubly insulting to me.

------
trothamel
It seems like giving criminals a free college education is the very definition
of a perverse incentive.

~~~
pstuart
We already have plenty of perverse incentives with prison, but on the supply
side.

Are you seriously suggesting that people would commit crimes to "get a free
education"?

~~~
tristanj
There are multiple cases where people commit crimes so they can get free
prison medical care, so yes the incentives are out of wack.

~~~
camgunz
The solution to this is to provide free health care outside of prison too. If
someone needs something so desperately they're willing to give up their
freedom to get it, the richest nation in history ought to be able to provide
it for them.

------
yters
The point of punishment is not a Skinner box to use operant conditioning to
bring about desired behavior. People are punished as a clear, unambiguous
message that "you did wrong". This is the most humane option because it treats
criminals as moral agents with free will who can change and choose what is
good. These other "progressive" approaches treat a criminal like an irrational
animal or child that must be conditioned. Consequently, the criminal learns
their moral intuition is wrong, and to act irrationally and not accept
responsibility for his or her own actions. A just penal code with appropriate
punishment is the most humane and dignified way to treat criminals.

