
Austerity and mental health in the U.K. - tomkwok
http://mosaicscience.com/story/life-and-death-austerity
======
DanBC
Department of Work and Pensions had to create a document for staff in
JobCentre+ because so many "customers" were declaring their intent to die by
suicide.

It's good that they have a policy. It's scary that they need it.

[https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/70850/response/174789...](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/70850/response/174789/attach/3/FoI%201264%20Annex%20A.pdf)

It's pretty annoying to hear Priti Patel (and people in this thread) deny the
reality: benefits sanctions cause suicide.

[http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/one-in-five-benefit-
rel...](http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/one-in-five-benefit-related-
deaths-involved-sanctions-admits-dwp/)

(And people who are sanctioned aren't all knowingly doing something wrong.
They've been open and honest and declared everything to DWP. But currently DWP
will suspend your claim, then send you the letter asking for more information.
You don't get that letter? The first you know is when your benefits are
suspended.)

Edit:

> In the UK, suicide rates rose in 2011 and 2012 (the most recent data
> available).

Newer data is just coming out. Small rise in deaths by suicide in women, small
drop in deaths by suicide for men.

EDIT2: link to data sort of here. [http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-
ons/business-transparency/fr...](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-
transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-
data/health/september-2015/index.html)

~~~
mattbee
From that DWP advice to their staff on handling suicidal clients:

"Expressions of suicidal thoughts are common amongst the general population.
This does not mean that they are never serious statements of intent."

What the fuck? No they're not common.

------
Shivetya
You have to love how austerity has been redefined. What austerity? The UK
total budget expenditures have gone up every year. They might be lower versus
GDP but that is the result of a recovering economy.

You do not have an austerity problem if your budget is increasing. You have a
spending problem. The UK's mental health woes are simply an issue that their
government managed health care didn't deliver on promises and overspends in
other areas.

So sorry, there is no problem cause by austerity here. Always scoff when you
see such claims as your more than likely to find government expenditures have
increased.

~~~
nbevans
+1

The UK is one of the few shining beacons in Europe at the moment.

Why do the left think we've so many "asylum" migrants illegally trying to
cross using heavy goods vehicles and the Channel Tunnel?

Many "asylum" seekers reach Greece, Hungary, France, even Germany (!) and
declare "this isn't good enough, we want asylum in the UK!".

~~~
richmarr
> Many "asylum" seekers reach Greece, Hungary, France, even Germany (!) and
> declare "this isn't good enough, we want asylum in the UK!".

Illegal immigrants drive down unskilled labour costs, which is beneficial to
the economy... they don't get welfare, or have access to non-emergency
healthcare, and they typically live in cramped shared accomodation so put much
less strain per head on housing than all the Russian oligarchs who buy Chelsea
investment properties to leave vacant.

So I'm not really sure what your objection is... unless it's the obvious one.

Oh wait, maybe it's ZOMGTHETERRRRRRRIZM! Not sure that's a huge bother to be
honest, all our recent terrorism has been home-grown.

~~~
nbevans
Please quote where my objection was :) Observation, reasoning != objection.

But yes, for the record, I do object and the current UK government objects to
it. Which is why we haven't opened up the flood gates like Germany, stupidly,
did.

~~~
morsch
When you add scare quotes to the word asylum it's pretty obvious what your
political leanings and corresponding objections are.

~~~
nbevans
No it isn't? And "scare quotes", good lord.

I put it in quotes because these people aren't interested in following the
standard asylum seeking procedures. They want to go around them. Which means
they aren't actually an asylum seeker. It makes them an illegal immigrant.

Not many governments in the world will tolerate illegal immigration.

~~~
richmarr
> I put it in quotes because these people aren't interested in following the
> standard asylum seeking procedures

So it's illegal immigrants you're talking about, rather than asylum seekers?

> Not many governments in the world will tolerate illegal immigration.

On the surface that's a reasonable position. After all, surely if they
tolerated it then they'd be _legal_ immigrants.

But tolerate is a simple word for a complex situation. There's a difference
between how much a government talks about immigration and how much they're
willing to spend to stop it (and willing to spend to fix any negative knock-on
effects either from reduced migration or blunt-instrument policies).

------
forloop
We've still got the war on drugs, in the UK. If that was ceased, there would
be savings of around 5B (conservatively, from what I've seen).

It, mainly, fucks two lots of people;

1) Those caught up in the "war". 2) Those who would otherwise have the money
spent on them (broadly, the disadvantaged).

Note, those two sets don't make up the majority, and have the least ability to
enact change.

I think it's fair to characterise democracy as two foxes and a hen voting on
what's for dinner!

~~~
logicchains
>I think it's fair to characterise democracy as two foxes and a hen voting on
what's for dinner!

Given the nature of the original quote ("Democracy is two wolves and a lamb
voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the
vote." \- Benjamin Franklin), does that imply that the poor need more guns?

~~~
pjc50

      > more guns
    

The armed insurrection in Northern Ireland did eventually, after 30 years of
human rights violations, 3500 dead and 47000 injured, mortar attacks on
Downing Street, the near-annihilation of the government in a Brighton hotel,
and the assasination of the Queen's cousin, result in improved treatment of
and economic opportunities for the Catholic population. This really isn't the
best way to handle budgets.

Democracy is about achieving better results without having to kill people.

------
gadders
There was an interesting discussion on the topic of people dying after being
declared fit for work on the BBC Radio 4 show "More or Less" that examines
statistics in the news [1].

It's a few weeks since I listened, but part of the argument would be that you
would expect the death rate to be higher as by definition some of this
population is in less than perfect health. The death rate for those that
weren't declared fit for work was higher as well.

Also between 2010 and 2014 total spending on welfare increased by £28 billion
so austerity seems to be as much a PR exercise as anything <\-- just to make
clear, this wasn't part of the show.

[1]
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06810qc](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06810qc)

~~~
Yacoby
The increasing in welfare spending seems to be a result of increasing spending
on pensions though?
[http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2006_2016UK...](http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2006_2016UKb_15c1li111lcn_40t00t)

~~~
gadders
It looks like it from that chart, yes. However, increasing pensions isn't a
sign of austerity either.

~~~
anon1385
Austerity is a macroeconomic thing. I've not seen any definition of austerity
that states or implies that it has to affect everybody equally, or that all
people have to be negatively affected. So it makes little sense to argue that
it isn't austerity just because one type of spending went up.

~~~
gadders
By that definition, barring utopia, the world would be in a permanent state of
austerity because some group or other is negatively affected by any change.

~~~
anon1385
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Austerity is a macroeconomic policy, and its presence or not is identified in
macroeconomic indicators (e.g. government spending as a percentage of GDP). I
would have thought that was obvious. The relevance of austerity to the article
and other discussions of this type is that austerity is used as the
justification for cuts to social services and the welfare state (even in cases
when the amount of money being spent/cut is tiny so the difference it makes to
the budget is negligible) and that these cuts cost lives (for no gain, since
austerity doesn't work).

You can argue about whether there was ever any intention to actually reduce
the deficit at all, since the results of austerity are well known to
macroeconomists, but that just leads to the conclusion that the government is
killing people (and tanking the economy) for purely ideological reasons (i.e.
reducing the size of the state, at any cost). Which is hardly any better than
the up front reason of "tough decisions" where some people supposedly need to
die to save the economy.

------
ch215
I've had mental health problems and, family aside, nothing--not exercise,
medicine nor therapy--has helped me more than having work to do. There's a lot
to be said for having a job to set your mind to.

------
nbevans
This leftist idea that the UK operating an environment of "austerity" is
laughable.

~~~
geographomics
It's not a "leftist idea", it's official UK government policy.

~~~
nbevans
See Greece as an example of what a governmental policy of austerity looks like
in Europe. The UK government has a policy of saving costs where possible and
improving efficiency of public services.

~~~
geographomics
I agree that Greece is another example of austerity, and one with more extreme
measures than the UK.

The current UK government hasn't done anything substantial to improve the
efficiency of public services. Instead they've generally reduced the level of
service. It's not more efficient, just worse.

~~~
nbevans
So we've gone from "outright austerity" to just "reducing the level of
service". That's okay by me and by the UK public that secured the current
government an overwhelming majority in the recent election.

Those people experiencing the reduced level of service never deserved the red
carpet and gold plating anyway. A 4 star hotel is still good; but yes I can
see why one might be upset if they were forced to downgrade from a 5 star
hotel. Running out of analogies now.

~~~
nbevans
@geographomics

Give an example of a public service where service levels has declined, as
clearly you have some in mind?

The only obvious one I can think of is welfare, which of course involves
handing physical cash to the claimants. The only reasonable measure of welfare
service level is of course the £ value of those hand outs. So yes, the welfare
service level has declined. But it is within public expectations; it is after
all what the UK public voted this government into power for. Indeed, the UK
public opinion intensified as before that they were only happy with having a
Con/LibDem coalition.

~~~
DanBC
> Give an example of a public service where service levels has declined

A&E departments missing max 4 hour limits

Entire towns not having any but locum GPs; people having to wait more than 48
hours to get GP appointment; people not being able to see GP of choice; junior
doctors choosing to leave UK.

Social care being delayed, causing people who could be discharged from
hospital having to stay there

Social care being delivered by people on zero hour contracts, and making
flying 5 minute visits.

I could go on.

~~~
nbevans
The NHS is ring fenced from the cost saving measures. So yeah, please go on ;)

~~~
DanBC
Do you really believe that, or are you trolling?

The NHS needs increased funding to stay where it is. And that's not including
new things like 7 day working ("Do what you're doing now, but do it better,
and do it over 7 days a week, and do it for the same money"). And the NHS is
clearly seeing budget cuts - Hunt has gone back on his "everything they need"
pre-election pledge. (The two year pay freeze and junior doctors leaving in
their thousands are clearest evidence, but the gaps in provision for children
with mental illness (some children are sent out of the country to get
treatment (and not exotic treatment) which isn't something that happens
anywhere else in health).

We now have NHS England suggesting that staffing levels should be
"proportionately safe", while also seeing CQC give damning reports because of
unsafe levels of staffing.

------
raverbashing
The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation _completely
dependent_ on the government and with a high sense of entitlement

No wonder the immigrants have a higher level of employment and literacy

~~~
tonyedgecombe
[http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7491b154-0850-11e5-85de-00144feabd...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7491b154-0850-11e5-85de-00144feabdc0.html)

"In the US labour market participation rates now lag five percentage points
behind the UK."

"In Britain, however, the workless family – perennial preoccupation of
politicians, policymakers and tabloid newspapers – is as rare as it was it was
30 years ago, unless a member of the household is disabled."

~~~
raverbashing
Note I'm not against welfare per se (I can't read your article because
paywall)

And to be fair
[http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/character...](http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-
and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-market)

