
How Harvey Karp Turned Baby Sleep into Big Business - wallflower
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/18/magazine/harvey-karp-baby-mogul.html
======
gdubs
Every kid is different. Our first, we tried everything to help with sleep.
Karp’s Methods, etc. In the end, “Healthy Sleep Habits” was the most important
book for us.

With our second, she slept, er, like a baby from day one. At eighteen months
she’d say, “night night”, and walk to her bedroom.

There’s a lot of learning on the job, which surely played into our first
child’s sleep issues. Having an extended family nearby seems like it could
help immensely.

Biggest things for us were learning to anticipate when the baby would be
getting tired and wind down before she became overtired. That and a much
earlier bedtime than most people seem to do (4:30 - 6:30 depending on naps and
wake up time).

~~~
duxup
You nailed it. Every kid is different, and overtired = not going to sleep.
Rituals and good scheduling are where it is at + stupid dumb luck.

Our first, we didn't sleep for like 16 months. It was horrific.

Our second has been great (with a few stretches of waking up (to be
expected)). Last week he crawled up the stairs and said "i go sleep" and asked
to be put in his crib and laid down and went to sleep immediately. I was just
sort of shocked ....

~~~
drrob
Any tips? We have a 10 month old boy, and everything we've tried thus far has
failed; has to be rocked, hummed and boobed to sleep every time.

~~~
duxup
Dumb luck.... ritual (do the same things before bed like bath, read books,
sing same songs, at the same times etc)...

Also take a shot at getting them to bed earlier as maybe he's overtired
(overtired baby = not gonna sleep).

But everyone's mileage varies as there is no magic solution.

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fab1an
Cognitive scientist and first time dad with a 2 month old daughter here.

'Electronically' created white noise is indeed extremely effective to calm
down a fussy or crying infant. It also often works instantly, making it
certainly a welcome and powerful tool in the arsenal of the sleep deprived
parent.

That said, I found its instant effectiveness to be somewhat concerning, as it
almost seems to flip a 'brain switch' in your baby - quite different from the
longer and more laborious procedure of shushing it to sleep the old fashioned
way (which likely works on the same principle, but involves lower volume, more
frequency variation and, last but not least, actual parent-infant
interaction). Bit of a no free lunch situation.

Driven by concerned temptation, I did some digging, but ultimately couldn't
find any large scale studies on the safety of exposure to white noise in human
infants - there is one study in the rat model though that suggest delayed
auditory cortex development in baby rats that were exposed to white noise _24
/7._ ([http://www.hhmi.org/news/white-noise-delays-auditory-
organiz...](http://www.hhmi.org/news/white-noise-delays-auditory-organization-
brain)) - which btw is exactly what sensorimotor contigency theory would
predict. ([http://nivea.psycho.univ-
paris5.fr/Synthese/MyinFinal.html](http://nivea.psycho.univ-
paris5.fr/Synthese/MyinFinal.html))

While I don't think the majority of SNOO users will operate the device this
way, I would imagine the effectiveness and convenience of the device may mean
that there are quite a few babies who will spend a lot of time in the SNOO,
approaching long term exposure to white noise.

I am not suggesting that this will cause long term problems to the infant's
auditory development as is the case in the animal model, but it is something
to be mindful of.

~~~
ryanobjc
The problem with advice like this, which could be summed as “don’t use the
snoo” or “avoid white noise” is the null hypothesis is worse than the mild
application of your advice. The result is parents are over tired all the time
and are worse parents at all other times.

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RIMR
I am no pediatric expert, but the SNOO has a pretty terrible flaw: It sensory
deprives the baby.

Sure, it provides reactive swaddling and white noise, which is helpful, but it
eliminates a few important stimuli for potentially most of the day.

They encourage this to be used for nighttime, but a lot of reviews I have read
talk about it's daytime use too. Too much time in this thing isn't good for
the baby.

1\. It discourages human interaction. If the baby cries, the machine swaddles
it. If the baby is awake and idle, the machine will keep it content.

2\. It blocks out view of the world. The mesh sides are dense and rise up high
enough that a person unfamiliar with the device might be surprised to find a
baby lying within. From the baby's POV, all they see is mesh walls, the
ceiling, and whatever faces appear above them.

Honestly, replacing those tight mesh sides with something easier to see
through would make a huge difference for the quality of this product. Also
daytime timers forcing parents away from using it as a day nurse as well as a
night nurse.

I think one of the most unfortunate parts about parenting is that you don't
want to give a baby the amount of attention it requests, but that babies
really do need that level of human attention in their most formative years.

~~~
Alex3917
> It sensory deprives the baby.

Infants can't even significantly move their necks, let alone see color for
several months. Once they can roll over competently without the risk of SIDS,
that's when you move them from the bassinet to a crib. The whole point of the
bassinet is to prevent them from moving around.

When people are using this during the day, it's usually just so they can take
a quick shower or something without worrying about the baby. Having a mobile
over the bassinet should be more than enough sensory stimulation for the 20
min or whatever.

~~~
UtilityDave
Infants can see contrast. Including color contrast. Interpreting color is the
bit they don't really have.

There is an interesting digression to be had about amblyopia and the
difference between optic nerve presence and use here if you are into talking
about it.

------
karmelapple
My friends used a SNOO from the beginning with their child and it has worked
wonders. Multiple other friends who are parents don’t believe the results
they’re getting out of it, because it sounds too good to be true.

This sounds like an advertisement but it’s not. I just plan on using it
someday because of the great success my friends have had.

~~~
wirrbel
Keep in mind, that babies come in lots of varieties. Some babies sleep really
really well, others don't. Now some of this can probably be attributed to the
babies' surroundings and what the parents do, but also, babies handled the
very same way may react totally differently. So this may have worked for your
friends, it may work for you, or it may not. Just don't freak out because the
magic bullet method doesn't work for your kid.

~~~
analog31
Indeed, something I've learned from having kids is: Nothing prepares you for
having a kid, including having a kid.

~~~
mrexroad
This. Have 4. Each time was completely different. Our first was by far the
worst, it actually amazes me we ever had more—guess our reduced retention of
memory from sleep deprivation was advantageous?

~~~
toasterlovin
It’s almost as if we’ve evolved to forget just how brutal raising infants can
be...

------
snthd
[https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2018/feb/02/the-
diabo...](https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2018/feb/02/the-diabolical-
genius-of-the-baby-advice-industry-podcast)

> The diabolical genius of the baby advice industry

>Every baffled new parent goes searching for answers in baby manuals. But what
they really offer is the reassuring fantasy that life’s most difficult
questions have one right answer

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bwb
A friend told me about the Snoo when we had our first and it was AMAZING. Put
him right to sleep, and helped keep him asleep. My wife was able to get a full
nights sleep for the first 6 months because of it.

~~~
subpixel
Can you elaborate? Night-weaning often takes more than six months (read:
someone is not getting a full night's sleep during that time frame).

Even SNOO's own marketing material suggests waking your baby to feed in the
middle of the night.

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icebraining
So from what I understand, the US doesn't have a swaddling tradition? I
thought that was common knowledge.

~~~
hudibras
We do now, thanks to Harvey.

~~~
snuxoll
Happiest Baby on the Block was the one and only parenting class my wife and I
ever took, and I’m glad we did - felt like we had cheat codes when our
daughter got fussy as a baby (she slept through the night within a month too,
we actually had to wake her for overnight feedings).

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bhickey
I've got a Snoo on order, if it works it's worth every penny.

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syntaxing
Hmm, now I am super tempted to get one but $1k+ is steep. Has anyone bought
any of the other stuff in the store (like the class and bed sheets)?

~~~
chrisgd
It is frequently on sale for 600. It is on Facebook area sales as well. We
only bought it because we think we can sell it for pretty close to purchase
price

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gcb0
Is this a paid advert? the article has more adjectives and unbased grandeur i
care to count. Almost look like a Wired puff piece.

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moultano
If there's any gene out there that causes babies to sleep through the night,
it's probably under _enormous_ selection pressure. Parents carrying that gene
would have twice as many kids.

~~~
wirrbel
having a baby, especially one younger than 6-8 months, is an extraordinarily
exhausting time of a parents life. I don't think that the fatigue in that
period is a good predictor for couples to get another child. The memories fade
as you see the baby grow, you'll have new things to worry about, too, and then
each parent has their own tolerance levels for that kind of stress. So in the
end, I don't think there is a selection pressure. Furthermore, with families I
know, there isn't much of a coincidence between crybabies and easy babies
among siblings. Maybe there is on paper, but it probably isn't the strongest
effect. Also, there I see families who became more kids after a troublesome
first one.

I'd like to add: Genetics isn't as easy as we software people think.

~~~
sjg007
Sex is a motivation and kids are the result at least over the long term pre
contraception. We are wired for it.

~~~
toasterlovin
This will change very quickly with the advent of contraceptives. There is huge
selection pressure right now in favor of people who have an innate drive to
have children.

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UtilityDave
Anyone know if this is anything like B.f. Skinner's crib?

