

Seth Priebatsch: Get a life - mdouglas88
http://www.startupswami.com/2010/11/seth-priebatsch-get-life.html

======
peteforde
The simple fact is that he'll burn out, sooner or later. That kind of energy
can be initially compelling, but very few great leaders thrive without
compassion and charisma.

There's a large element of the media that champions sociopathic tendencies.
It's good for the HN types to visibly push back against it, even if every
situation is different.

Sometimes it's good to cry it out with people. Hard to do that if you can't
sign a contract ahead of time.

~~~
devinj
This is more autistic than sociopathic. It's quite possible that he won't burn
out, simply because he really isn't interested in socialization.

~~~
peteforde
Do you know that the man in question is in fact autistic?

Austism and Aspergers are conditions that get casually assigned to geeks with
eccentric or anomalous behaviours far too often. Given the degree to which the
founder in question is functioning, it's medically unlikely that he has either
condition.

Meanwhile, I believe that being averse to forming complex friend relationships
combined with creating a culture of constant work (which many would describe
as abusive) is sociopathic: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathy>

~~~
devinj
I didn't say he was autistic. I said the described behaviour is autistic.
Which it is.

Sociopathic is what it isn't.

~~~
peteforde
You are just being argumentative. Autism is a condition, not a type of
behaviour that you can opt-in to.

By your logic, anything someone does that is sufficiently abnormal qualifies
as autistic. I guess I'd hope that you'd step away from this conversation and
stop calling non-autistic people autistic. "Weird and frustrating" is probably
more appropriate anyhow.

~~~
devinj
How is saying that non-autistic people have autistic traits any different than
saying non-sociopaths have sociopathic traits? You're being hypocritical.

Certainly there are traits that are well established as being "autistic" and
"sociopathic". This is the former, not the latter -- the latter is
characterized by a more predatory or ambitious nature, which this guy seems to
lack, at least by his own descriptions. It's morelike he doesn't see the point
in socialization. Sociopaths, on the contrary, are very social.

And, despite the fact that you keep claiming I did so, I did not call him
autistic, and the _first_ time you accused me of calling him autistic, I said
that wasn't true. I guess I'd hope I wouldn't have to tell you things twice.

------
jeffclark
Out of the last 4 CEOs I've had to work with, the 2 that had no life were
definitely the ones I _hated_ working for.

Their constant stress made the rest of the company very antsy. It's unhealthy
all around.

------
acangiano
While this is a worthwhile discussion, and I fundamentally agree with the
points made by the article, I find it distasteful to see articles which
isolate a specific person and publicly tell them how they should live their
life. Not too long ago there was another article about how it was tragic that
Patrick didn't use his skills for more ambitious projects.

The same points could be made without making the article gravitate around the
personal life of Seth Priebatsch. If you are concerned about that person in
particular, and would like to host an intervention, you can do so privately
via email.

~~~
nhangen
I don't think he's isolating it as an attack on Seth, but as an attack on the
media that glorifies Seth's behavior.

~~~
acangiano
That could be done with a title such as, "Mass media: stop glorifying
entrepreneurs without a life". If you call it "Seth Priebatsch: Get a life"
you are framing the discussion in a confrontational, ad hominem manner.

~~~
nhangen
touche :)

------
Mystalic
Different lifestyles work for different people. I know Seth -- he's energized
and motivated by the work at hand. He's happiest when he's working.

That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have fun. We were racing bicycles
around Google Ventures just for kicks. He's also 21 -- he doesn't have a
family he has to worry about. In fact, I'd say his employees and his company
are his family.

I like work and life balance, but not everyone needs it. or sometimes you find
your fun within your work.

~~~
codypo
I disagree that not everyone needs work/life balance. If you're a leader at a
company, your employees count on you to make good decisions regarding their
future. I don't think you can make reasonable decisions here if you spend all
of your time working and thus lose the perspective one gains from an outside
life.

Let's say that I'm an employee of yours and I have a pregnant wife. I wish to
take off at 3 PM once a week to accompany her to the doctor. I make this pitch
to you, my 21 year old CEO who lives at the office. If you're buried in the
business all day, every day, could you comprehend how important something like
this would be to me? Even if you did say yes, what would you think of my
commitment to the company? Would you factor my behavior into your decisions
about my future?

You may find great meaning within your work, but others will have much
different priorities in their lives. I think you lose your ability to realize
that with this sort of workload.

~~~
lkrubner
My remark may be dismissed as trolling, but seriously think about the scenario
you are putting forward:

"Let's say that I'm an employee of yours and I have a pregnant wife. I wish to
take off at 3 PM once a week to accompany her to the doctor. I make this pitch
to you, my 21 year old CEO who lives at the office."

This is at a startup?

The early phase of a startup is short - within 2 years the company either
takes off or dies. I really, seriously think that if you and your wife want to
have children, you should get a job at a larger and more stable organization -
its good for your kid, good for your wife, good for you. If you have a
pregnant wife, you should not be working at a startup. Find something more
stable and secure.

~~~
jeffclark
I'd like to buy enough downvotes to make this comment disappear forever.

A startup is still a job, and a job is still only part of your life.

There are jobs before and jobs after, but nobody lays on their deathbed
wishing they would have spent _less_ time with their family.

~~~
lkrubner
You write:

"nobody lays on their deathbed wishing they would have spent _less_ time with
their family"

I keep seeing this idea repeated time after time, yet I've never seen any
formal study of this issue. I know this idea has been asserted by some people
with very large followings. Stephen Covey, in his book "The 7 Habits Of Highly
Effective People" asserts nearly the identical sentiment that you've expressed
here.

All I can say is, from what I've seen, this is just one of those things that
varies a great deal from one family to another, and from one person to
another. I know that both my mother and my father keenly felt the strain of
having children, and both of them wished they'd had more time and money to
advance their careers. My dad was lucky enough to be successful as a
commercial photographer, but increasingly after he turned 50 he wondered why
he never broke through to the top ranks of photography. He made good money but
he never became famous. He thought, not unreasonably, that if he had less
demands from his family, then he might have more money and energy to reach the
top ranks of his field. When he was in his 70s he made several attempts to get
into the top galleries in New York City, but he only had one small success in
that regard. He died of cancer at the age of 79. Since I stayed with him every
day during the last month of his life, I can tell you without a doubt that
when he was on his deathbed he did wish that he had had more time for his
career - a tradeoff that could only have been purchased by him spending less
time with his family.

From what I can see, my dad is hardly an isolated case. When I talk to my
friends, and to people older than myself, what I hear, again and again, is
disappointment. Many people, perhaps most people, feel that they have somehow
failed to live up to their true potential. At least among my friends, most
feel that having kids has imposed a heavy sacrifice on them. I can not think
of a single one of my friends who hasn't thought, at some point, that they
might be much more successful if they did not have kids.

More than that, not everyone is happy with their family life. If you suggest
that family life is always rewarding, in a country where 45% of all marriages
end in divorce (I'm using the USA as an example here) then you are simply in
denial of reality.

I think this is an issue that at least deserves a frank, honest discussion,
especially on a forum like Hacker News, where we all expect honesty regarding
the tradeoffs of the entrepreneurial life. This is not the right place for
sentimental nonsense about the joyous wonders of family. This is a place for
bluntness and honesty.

Your attitude about "buy enough downvotes to make this comment disappear
forever" is really worrisome.

~~~
dasil003
This is much better than your original comment which was muddied by a grand
pronouncement about kids and startups. In this comment you acknowledge
individual differences, and you take some conventional wisdom to task. In the
former comment you jump up on a soap box and proclaim what people with kids
should do.

So first off, as a #1 employee in a startup that had a baby right during the
early stage, I'm living proof of the fallacy of your judgement. I pull off the
work-life balance thing pretty well (stay-at-home mom helps a lot), and my
effectiveness at work is not diminished. The fact is that commitments at home
give me an ongoing sense of urgency that keeps my overall productivity up
without inducing burnout the way 18-hour days do. And in any case, the
variance between individuals is far greater than the variance between hours
worked. You'd be a fool to hire lesser talent just because they're willing to
work 80 hours a week.

More to the point about this last comment, you're absolutely right to think
about future regrets. Having a family is a big sacrifice, and it will not
necessarily make you happy. On the other hand, slaving away at startups, even
if you find financial success may not make you happy either. Today's media
culture (of which silicon valley porn is a significant part these days)
programs our ego with all kinds of beliefs about happiness: if I'm rich I'll
be happy, if I'm famous I'll be happy, if my talent is recognized I'll be
happy, but the belief doesn't make them true. The sad truth _may_ be that
_nothing_ will make _you_ happy, and you are destined to be miserable, or
vice-versa. It may be that the greatest accomplishments require a certain
discontent, and in fact you care more about the accomplishment than the
happiness. It's a mess that you have to sort out for yourself. Anyone
preaching how others should live their life is invested in a particular belief
system that may or may not apply to you. When you are making these kinds of
decisions I think deep soul searching is the only way to go. I wouldn't place
too much stock in other people's regrets, because there's no way you can sort
out the baggage underlying someone's stated beliefs to really get a read on
how it might apply to you. Instead your only recourse is to go with your gut.
This is the ultimate gift and curse of living in a free society.

~~~
lkrubner
I realize that my point is unpopular, however, it remains true: if you do not
have children, then you will have more time for your startup.

The fact that this idea is unpopular does not make it untrue.

You can downvote it as much as you want, but it still remains true.

This is Hacker News. This is forum for bluntness and truthfulness when it
comes to the entrepreneurial life. We should not shy away from a truth just
because it makes us uncomfortable. This is a forum where we all expect frank
conversations about the trade-offs that we face when we pursue the
opportunities presented by a startup.

If you have children, then you will have less time for your startup. It's as
simple as that.

~~~
dasil003
First of all, you're talking right past my whole point and just restating your
original point, which is pretty disrespectful of the time I put in crafting a
balanced response.

You claim you want frank discussion, but then you reduce the whole debate to a
time equation. The problem is that it's only as simple if you measure success
by hours worked. As someone who has pulled many many 100 hour weeks, I can
tell you that I'm more effective in 40 hours now then I used to be in 80. This
may not be true for everybody (I'm not trying to tell anyone how to live their
lives), but for me, I draw energy and inspiration from the downtime. I'm in
touch with real human beings outside the echo chamber, giving me insight into
building products that normal people will buy. When I get to the office, most
of the time I know I have only until 6pm to get my todo list done. When I was
single and working 100 hour weeks, it was easy to get caught on tangents, or
work when over-tired, because hey I have 12 hours on Saturday and 12 hours on
Sunday to catch up.

Limiting your work hours can be constraint that leads to increased creativity
and effectiveness. It also creates a buffer when you really do need to put in
extra effort to make a critical deadline. Time spent away from work lets your
subconscious process things and come to more optimal solutions.

I'm not denying that there is a correlation between highly successful
entrepreneurs and long work hours, but it's a fallacy to treat it as a causal
relationship. How many people work 24/7 in silicon valley and never get
anywhere? A lot more than you think because no one is telling their stories.
The focus should be on efficiency, creative thinking, intelligence and above
all persistence. It's possible to jeopardize all of those by forsaking work-
life balance.

------
usiegj00
Seth Priebatsch: Love a life. Hey guys--I've had the pleasure of working with
Seth. He's a stellar entrepreneur. He is intensely intelligent. He's a humble
and thoughtful hacker. He's living a dream--enjoying what he does and working
hard. And isn't that the special thing about geeking out today? We get to do
the things we love to do. The things we stay home on a Friday night to hack
at? It's a choice I make all the time and I love to hear Seth talk about it
with a sense of passion. It doesn't have to be your choice--but it's one many
of us make--and Seth gets my nod.

------
phprida
"Tunnel vision helps. Being a bit of a shit helps. A thick skin helps. Stamina
is crucial, as is a capacity to work so hard that your best friends mock you,
your lovers despair and the rest of your acquaintances watch furtively from
the sidelines, half in awe and half in contempt" - Felix Dennis, Media Mogul

------
msarvar
Give him a break, he's only 21. I mean, he wasn't allowed to drink an alcohol
a year ago! I bet when your're a bit little older, you already know what it
means to have a balanced life.

------
staunch
And yet the Macintosh was created under precisely these conditions. This is
often how amazing things are created. It's not the only way, but it definitely
can work.

~~~
quanticle
Oh, its true that the Mac was created under these conditions, but I doubt that
any of the creators would describe the experience as a pleasant one. Even the
stories on Folklore.org (which highlight the most pleasant parts of the
effort) contain a distinct undertone of tension as a reflection of the
enormous amount of pressure being placed on the team by Steve Jobs.

~~~
staunch
I bet a good number of them also think that was one of the best times of their
lives.

~~~
yesno
Only after Mac got successful. If not, it won't be the best times of their
lives.

Here's another bet: ask them if they want to do that again for at least 2 more
times with different companies and unknown leaders, wonder if they'll take it.

~~~
haploid
Disagree, but anecdotally so. I look back with extreme fondness on a 5-month
period of my life in 1998/1999 when I was working 80-hour weeks on a project
that was ultimately doomed to market failure.

I learned a tremendous amount, and my team accomplished some truly great
things that will forever occupy a warm spot in my memories.

Most of the people I worked with on this project agree heartily with this
sentiment. You don't have to become an AAPL millionaire on a wildly successful
project to make the process of creation something of great enjoyment.

~~~
quanticle
Well, it also depends on your boss and your teammates. In my case, the boss
wasn't exactly competent at .Net, but insisted on writing code anyway. What
ended up happening is that we'd spend half of day n+1 reworking what the boss
had written in the latter half of day n.

------
mooneater
"Nothing has been produced from that".

Uh-huh. Maybe because watching a movie together is a very poor way to spend
time with someone you care about.

Instead, spend even 30 minutes talking about the things you care most about. I
guarantee then something "will be produced from that".

~~~
j_baker
Personally, I think not being productive is the _point_ of going to movies.
One only has so many hours they can spend being productive before they become
wrecks!

------
wildmXranat
There's nothing great about being the Napoleon of CEOs. Get some proper rest.
Enjoy the company of your friends and enhance those relationships. Get
perspective on personal life before stress bites you in the ass.

~~~
haploid
There's no obvious indication that the CEO in question is under large amounts
of stress. Generally, many founders who work this much do so in a state of
flow, which is very much a non-stressful manner of working.

------
JonathanFields
I look at our minds and bodies like a formula 1 car, you may not like it, but
at some point you need to replenish. You can either do it in intelligent
intervals that allow not to live with that lingering sense that you might blow
up at any given moment. Or, you can push until everything starts to fail and
you're forced to recover.

The question isn't whether we need to pause and recover, it's whether we'll
choose to integrate that time into intelligent intervals that let you feel
good along the way or hold out for one big boom the also happens to leave you
feeling increasingly like garbage as you approach your limit.

Just look to the structure of ycombinator. It isn't 6, 9 or 12 months. Because
nobody can sanely keep that level of intensity or pace for that long.

Plus, once you're far enough into life to have people and activities that
allow you to come alive outside of work (even if you love your work), you do a
disservice to both your professional and personal vision by ignoring those
people over long periods of time.

------
bherms
1) Who cares if he's spending that much time doing it? If he loves it, that's
all that matters. If everyone dedicated themselves like that to something that
ignited their passion, the world would be better off in general.

2) I would assume that while he does probably work his ass off, there is a bit
of exaggeration there. It's for the investors. They want to know they're
investing their money in someone who is dedicated to the product and not
afraid to bust ass and work long hours. I'm sure he does, but the glorifying
of it is probably to retain investor confidence.

3) Someone buy the kid a copy of _Rework_

------
daimyoyo
It's a bit odd that the best idea Seth Priebatsch's ever had is to add a game
layer to the world. If he were to apply his talents to a real business problem
not only would he make substantially more money, he'd change the world. Don't
get me wrong, Scvngr is a neat idea, but it's like creating a baking soda
volcano for a science fair project when you're capable of demonstrating cold
fusion. Hopefully he'll tackle something big after he exits this company.

As an aside; I have no idea what he should do next. I just hope that he can
solve a bigger problem in his lifetime than the one he's working on.

------
brlewis
Matt Douglas (the author) is CEO of <http://punchbowl.com/> whose users have a
life. It makes sense for him to have a lifestyle that helps him relate to his
users. How big a part do you think the lifestyle of your users should play in
optimizing the work-life balance of founders?

I'm looking forward to discussing this and other topics with Boston-area
hackers at today's meetup.

~~~
edgeztv
What/where is the meetup today?

~~~
brlewis
<http://anyvite.com/events/home/pypehqiqsd#1>

5:30 at Cambridgeside. Bring friends.

------
acconrad
The post makes sense, and we should not be putting people like him on a
pedestal. It's in bad taste to call out someone specifically. He is not the
only one who does this, and this article can be generalized to any over
zealous leader. I feel bad for him for missing out on so much in life, and
he's young - there's no reason to knock a young kid when he's down. Eventually
it will catch up to him.

------
jayroh
According to his bio on scvngr - "Seth Priebatsch was born in Boston, MA at
the age of 7." (<http://www.scvngr.com/about/team>)

How can you hold someone to conventional standards when they're _born_ at the
age of 7?! He's got a lot of catching up to do.

------
ariels
Some of our best ideas come from when we are away from the computer totally
engaged in something other than work. I think Seth and others will ultimately
learn this.

------
southpolesteve
Maybe he can't get friends, so he says he doesn't want them.

------
jamesaguilar
Personally, I don't care as long as you don't expect me to be there with you
on Saturday. In that case, we have a problem.

------
bhoung
Here here. There's nothing as hard as achieving success in all aspects of your
life.

------
Aetius
Dude, stfu and get back to work. I mean really, who tells someone else how to
run their business? If it works for him, it works for him, and that's that.

~~~
sz
The tone of your comment got you downvoted into oblivion but that was my
reaction too. Just seems like whining about image.

