
I don't want a hustler - andrewacove
http://andrewacove.posterous.com/i-dont-want-a-hustler
======
tgriesser
_I will readily take a business-minded, action-oriented cofounder who gets
shit done. I have absolutely no interest in a hustler._

In my mind, that is the absolute definition of a hustler, someone who will get
shit done. Predicating that hustlers are sleazy, or have questionable ethics,
or don't value technical skill sets is the same as assuming that "hackers" are
people who break into computers.

Sure there are probably a lot of sleazy "hustlers", just as their are
malicious "hackers", but in my mind the definition of a hustler is someone who
comes at the same problem as a good hacker would - with the same tenacity and
willingness to try new things and the inability to quit in solving a problem.

In which case I absolutely want a hustler on my team, just not a shitty one.

 _Admittedly, I've done Micah some disservice by referencing his article. The
Hustlers he describes aren't the sleezeballs I keep encountering, but
unfortunately they share the same space and a more literal interpretation of
the term includes them._

So it sounds like the summary is that good hustlers are hard to come by, just
as good hackers are, not that they aren't good to have. The title seems to
suggest otherwise.

~~~
ktsmith
Hustler both describes enterprising go getters and sleaze ball unscrupulous
jerks. The problem is which meaning is more prevalent. I can't think of a
single person I would describe with the word hustler and mean it in a positive
way. I also wouldn't use the word hacker to refer to myself or any of my
respected peers outside of technical circles due to its very negative
connotations with non technical folk. While the premise of the hackers and
hustlers essay was good the word choice may be poor for the average person. In
my experience you end up spending as much time describing the intended use of
the words hacker and hustler as you do making the point about determined and
talented people. The end result is the point is lost in technicalities.

~~~
tgriesser
I agree with the assessment that both terms come with such differing meanings,
that they should probably be avoided in the mainstream for the fear of losing
the point in the technicalities.

What I took issue with is that the post was in direct response to a piece that
outlined _exactly_ what the term hustler meant in the positive sense, then
went on to say that they wouldn't want one based on the negative meaning, when
in reality they just couldn't find a good one to work with.

As the original article from Micah said: _A Hustler on the other other hand is
a relationship builder. Someone who can build direct relationships with their
customers. They arent really promoters, although they do a lot of promotion.
They arent salespeople, although they do a lot of selling. They are passion
people. They have the ability to articulate their passion clearly and in a way
that gets other people equally passionate._

As a technical person who has worked on several projects with someone who I
consider to be an "enterprising go getter" and in my mind a hustler, I think
that they can often be greatly under appreciated - especially good ones, and
this article didn't do anything to convey that respect.

~~~
andrewacove
I may not have been clear enough in explaining it, but my blog post isn't a
direct response to Micah's, though I use his post for context. Mine is a
response to the people who think they are hustlers (by Micah's definition),
promote themselves as such, and are in actuality the type of people I
describe. Unfortunately, they significantly outnumber hustlers who hew to the
intended definition.

The post is also tinged with some additional dismay at my discovery that some
of the hustlers held up in the valley as prime examples of the form have
proven themselves to be sleazy as well. One of those people is who I refer to
in the sentences about lies.

------
delineal
I've known a couple of examples. There was the hustler who was booted from his
own startup because he was a shallow jerk that no-one wanted to work for. The
company is doing very well without him.

Then there was the founder/hustler who made promises to customers without even
consulting his development team, despite this repeatedly coming back to bite
the company in the rear-end. He's still doing it today.

I think it's great if someone is willing to do whatever it takes to make a
deal... but the deal isn't over until the product is in the hands of the
customer. When promises are made that can't be kept, it lowers everyone's
morale (customers, developers, hustlers, etc). Hustlers need to look at the
big picture and understand what the real cost of closing a deal is.

------
jscore
The problem is that there no hustlers in Bay Area/Nor Cali. The culture's home
is New York, and more along East Coast (Miami).

A lot of my friends (in Brooklyn, NY) are hustlers.

Nor Cali and New York basically two opposing cultures.

Hipsters will never be hustlers.

Make no mistake, hustlers may not know how to setup an EC2 instance but they
know how to make bank.

(I'm using my definition of hustler, which is someone along the lines of
"Naughty" per pg's essays, especially someone who operates in "grey" areas
(not illegal).)

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onan_barbarian
In my experience, hustlers (the 'naughty' kind) are good for making everyone
think you're making real progress while your company is actually going
sideways. We had a couple hustler-types who spent a lot of time blowing smoke
simultaneously up engineering, BD and customer's asses.

It was only after they were gone that we were able to disentangle an elaborate
web of false expectations and outright lies and start making actual progress
again. Particularly mischievous was the way that these guys often created
constant panics for engineering due to the unrealistic promises that they'd
made to customers - they would then regard this as 'good management' (look how
hard we're making everyone work).

Bonus points for the fact that these guys were working on their own startup
"on their own time" (sort of).

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arepb
Edit title: I don't want a hustler, I just want someone with hustle.

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fuzzmeister
My proposal: stop using the word "hustler". While many people in the startup
community have gotten used to the "aggressively active or enterprising person"
definition, for most people, the first definition that comes to mind is "a
person who lives by stealing or other dishonest means; a thief, pimp, etc."

<http://www.answers.com/topic/hustler-slang-term>

~~~
nedwin
We should also stop using the word hacker because most people think it's
someone who lives by stealing or breaking into peoples computers; a thief, a
criminal etc.

</probably unneccessary sarcasm>

~~~
fuzzmeister
As far as I'm aware, hacker had a positive meaning before some people started
using it negatively, while hustler seems to have mainly been used negatively
before some people starting using it positively.

~~~
nedwin
While that may be true the comment refers to current perceptions rather than
etymology.

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pdenya
Edit title: I want a hustler but can't find one.

~~~
andrewacove
Upvoted. As I've often heard people say about good UX designers, "I'd also
like a unicorn."

Honestly, though, I'm more interested in Hacker/Humanist than Hacker/Hustler.
I think a UX person would be a much more valuable partner for me.

~~~
funthree
I sent you an email.

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CoachRufus87
Larry Ellison (Co-Founder of Oracle) was/is a hustler. It's served him well.

~~~
alexqgb
"So, Larry, why are you calling the first version of your software 'release
2.0'?".

"Because no one ever buys the first version of anything."

------
baberuth
Tomato, tomato.

Just splitting hairs about what people call a hustler. this post is just as
easily titled "I've met a bunch of shitty hustlers".

Plenty of good "business guy"/"hustler"/"business-minded, action-oriented
cofounder"s have just as much trouble finding good engineering talent.

Yes, finding quality people is hard. That's part of the game.

------
dools
For what it's worth, the term "hustler" is used pretty frequently as a
colloquialism for pro-actively selling in a range of industries. I've heard it
used in reference to musicians, writers, actors and artists.

In the Ricky Gervais series "Extras" in the episode with Patrick Stewart when
Ricky accosts him to look through his script Patrick says "I know I know,
you're hustling".

There's also the popularisation of the term in the hip-hop culture (gotta
hustle y'all, we gotta hustle) where the term represents achieving despite
extreme adversity.

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rdl
I actually think I could fill either the hacker or hustler role in most teams,
but would prefer to work with one or more other people so I can focus on one
or the other role.

"Sales engineers", consultants, and hackers who enjoy building/promoting their
own products are probably all some combination of these roles.

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famousactress
The author's definition of hustler seems to be different from mine.
<http://joeyroth.com/poster/>

~~~
andrewacove
That's definitely true. Yours is more in line with the intent of Micah's
original blog post.

Mine is based on my experiences with the people I meet who intend to fill the
role. In theory, your definition should be correct - in practice, the scene is
full of people who represent mine. They might be making an unfounded claim to
the title, but filtering the network to just the real ones is a nightmare.

~~~
famousactress
Ah. Well put. Semantics aside then, that's a bummer. Good luck with your
search!

------
dualboot
I would imagine what you need is someone who is able to comprehend and convey
effectively.

A geek with useable social skills and self-confidence.

------
michaelochurch
When I think of "hustler" in this sense, I think of someone who is constantly
involved in relationship-building work (although I've never heard the word
used in this way, but let's run with it). He may be a scam artist or
unethical; he may not be. They're not all bad (but most are). The hustler's
social and work lives have fused into one more-than-full-time job, and he
chooses his friends based on how useful they are. He usually started out
fairly well-connected, and has the huge leg-up of an MBA from one of the big
three (Harvard, Stanford, Wharton) business schools, and now has a huge
network of contacts. This is only a marginal advantage for entrepreneurs (mid-
level investment bankers are useless "connections" for startups) but it lets
the hustler feel full of himself because he has other options (i.e. his
connections can get him a $250,000 job, so you should feel privileged that he
is taking the time to talk to you) than whatever project he's doing at the
time.

When it becomes insufferable is when the hustler thinks his social connections
deserve to trade at a ridiculously high rate against more evenly allocated
(and therefore more common) assets like talent and drive. As he sees it, he
knows all the important people, but any idiot can code. So he tends to offer
terms like 5% equity for writing all of the code to implement his idea. They
get what they deserve when only idiots want to code for them.

------
da_coke_chef
hackers are hustlers.

