

At Marathon in North Korea, Curiosity Goes a Long Way - pmcpinto
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/sports/at-marathon-in-north-korea-curiosity-goes-a-long-way.html?

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Mikeb85
This is an interesting quote:

> Not everyone’s reaction could have been staged on the course, said Roeland
> Loof, 33, a fellow Dutch runner. Especially the children. Children do what
> they want.

> “In the U.S. and Europe, we’re as brainwashed” about North Korea, Mr. Loof
> said, “as they are here.”

Interesting the article didn't elaborate on this more, but it's true. People
need to spend more time meeting, talking to people and experiencing life, and
less time in front of the TV digesting everything the media (under the
direction of the government) tells us to believe.

~~~
cbd1984
I hate this kind of false equivalence. It prevents anyone from discussing the
actual problems, because, well, "You do it too! You're just as bad!"

No. The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of
speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human. Saying
otherwise denies what North Koreans suffer, and is precisely what the North
Korean government would say in a PR stunt.

~~~
Mikeb85
> I hate this kind of false equivalence. It prevents anyone from discussing
> the actual problems, because, well, "You do it too! You're just as bad!"

>The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of
speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human.

On the flip-side, what you propose prevents us from seeing the problems with
our own society. "At least we're not as bad as North Korea" So many times when
things go bad here, when the government takes away more and more freedoms, all
we hear is that at least we still have it better than Russia/North
Korea/Iran/insert bogeyman.

I'm not proposing brushing their problems under the rug (nor ours). I'm simply
proposing that we see people in these countries as people. There are real
people in North Korea, in Iran, in Russia, who grow up, get married, have
kids, have celebrations, and generally live life.

So much of our propaganda is about dehumanizing our enemies, turning them into
subhuman bogeymen in order to justify whatever our governments decide to do to
them/us.

And no one said anything about the west being as bad as North Korea. The only
comparison made was that we're brainwashed in our perceptions of others. Which
we are. Your response shows that very well, which basically parrots everything
our media ever says about North Korea.

~~~
cbd1984
> I'm simply proposing that we see people in these countries as people.

Of course. Nobody is saying we shouldn't. If you're debating _this_ premise,
you're debating a premise nobody else raised, one which only exists in your
head.

> Your response shows that very well, which basically parrots everything our
> media ever says about North Korea.

I'm not parroting, and saying I am just convinces me you're not interested in
a discussion, but in being right, and insulting people who disagree.

My conclusions are based on evidence, mostly from people who went there as
tourists, shepherded by the government itself, and _still_ saw horrible
things. That, plus the refugees and the stories they tell, paint a
consistently terrible picture of what life is like in North Korea.

It's possible they're all lying, all the photos are doctored, and North Korea
has just as many lights as South Korea when night falls. However, that's so
far from being the least hypothesis that claiming it without a lot of new
evidence is absurd.

~~~
Mikeb85
> I'm not parroting, and saying I am just convinces me you're not interested
> in a discussion, but in being right, and insulting people who disagree.

Then why do you say nothing of individual North Koreans, and not even touch on
any of the points I raised in the first post you replied to?

I said "People need to spend more time meeting, talking to people and
experiencing life, and less time in front of the TV digesting everything the
media tells us to believe." and your reply was "No. The West is not just as
bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of
information, and general freedom to be human."

I suggested a conversation, a meeting of peoples, which is exactly what the
article is about. It's not about a North Korean PR stunt, it's not about an
officially sanctioned marathon. Yes, all that happened, but it's about what
happens when North Koreans are allowed to meet westerners.

> My conclusions are based on evidence, mostly from people who went there as
> tourists, shepherded by the government itself, and still saw horrible
> things. That, plus the refugees and the stories they tell, paint a
> consistently terrible picture of what life is like in North Korea.

Again, you're debating how terrible North Korea is. That's not the point.

> It's possible they're all lying, all the photos are doctored, and North
> Korea has just as many lights as South Korea when night falls.

Yes, North Korea is less developed, there's less lights (granted, nearly every
place on the planet has less lights, especially per square mile, than South
Korea). Again, that's not the point.

All I'm interested in is seeing the PEOPLE that are on the other side. This
article is interesting because of the interactions with people in an isolated,
some would say repressive, state that is opening up ever so slightly to
foreign interaction. That's the point.

~~~
cbd1984
> Then why do you say nothing of individual North Koreans, and not even touch
> on any of the points I raised in the first post you replied to?

You said nothing of individual Westerners, and didn't touch on any of my
points.

------
explosion
Fascinating. Curious what it would take to register, I found the Pyongyang
Marathon signup form here:
[http://www.pyongyangmarathon.com](http://www.pyongyangmarathon.com)

Apparently they accept amateur runners and you can do a 10k, half marathon, or
full marathon.

~~~
sebastianavina
> Please Type 12345 in the field below

that's the best captcha I've ever seen.

~~~
amolgupta
the google captcha just says click to confirm you are not a robot.
[https://www.google.com/recaptcha/intro/index.html](https://www.google.com/recaptcha/intro/index.html)
Maybe the second best.

~~~
Roodgorf
Actually the movement of your cursor alone can go a long way to telling
whether someone is a bot or not[0]. The ACM linked a better article a while
back that went more in depth about it, but there is more going on with that
click that meets the eye. [0][http://www.wired.com/2014/12/google-one-click-
recaptcha/](http://www.wired.com/2014/12/google-one-click-recaptcha/)

