
Thoreau 2.0  - anu_gupta
https://static.pinboard.in/xoxo_talk_thoreau.htm
======
pixelmonkey
I thought this section was particularly good:

""" He was obsessed with how complexity can creep into unexpected corners of
your life, disguised as necessity. He gives the example of a farmer who
convinces himself he must eat meat in order to stay strong. Since meat is
expensive, the farmer tills more land in order to afford it. And the harder he
works, the hungrier he gets, in a vicious spiral.

[...] What I had thought was a convenience had actually been the foundation
for a little pyramid of anxieties.

[...] I'm intrigued by this idea of complexity being something adversarial,
that sneaks into your life, like a cockroach, and you have to fight to
eradicate. """

Doesn't just apply to life, but also to software and startups.

I've been running a tech startup about as long as Maciej (though with a very
different path / business), and I sometimes wonder about the complexities we
now take for granted, 4 years in.

Not just complexities of our business, but also the infrastructure we've re-
built, re-factored, re-architected, etc. over the years and our own
understanding of the problem space we've "mastered".

We've assembled this tapestry of tools, technologies, processes, cultural
practices, customers, partners, etc. And as software engineers, we have
"simply accepted" a certain level of complexity.

When the company first started in 2009, it was just two guys sending
keystrokes into a fresh vim buffer. No "funding", no "process", no "brand" \--
just creation. I think this is what creates nostalgia for the early days of a
company's life -- it's the purity and simplicity of it.

I wish I had gotten Maciej's advice earlier and kept a journal.

------
tptacek
He's got something interesting to say about the event itself, too:

[https://blog.pinboard.in/2013/09/xoxo_talk_notes/](https://blog.pinboard.in/2013/09/xoxo_talk_notes/)

~~~
kafkaesque
And this was my initial reaction when I started reading his presentation. I
made that "Huh?" face. I kept reading, but half-way through, I skipped
portions of it.

My problem: his presentation sounds too contrived. My background is in
literature; meaning, I am obsessed with literature and reading and its where
most of my knowledge rests.

I love Thoreau. I'm a hiker. I'm learning to program. I really like computers
and technology. But I rarely, if ever try to unite the two. Sorry, it just
doesn't work.

One things computers try to do is make things scale, as I understand it;
understand and organise things with massive computer power. I'm not saying
this is a bad thing.

But Thoreau wanted the opposite.

I'm sure the presenter meant well, and his heart was in the right place, but
have a close look at the words he uses. They're buzzwords to try to relate to
an audience who is further apart from Thoreau's ideology than he might've
wished.

He is "rebranding" Thoreau. Thoreau is not a 'content creator', because that
word has certain connotations nowadays, which do not apply to him. Yes, this
might be semantics, but this type of updated/21st century diction to try to
relate/appeal to a new audience sounds contrived.

I applaud his efforts, because at least Thoreau serves as a way to balance out
technologists' lives.

But because he was so extreme, all this sounds like yoga instructors talking
about living a better life sipping on their Starbucks coffee and buying
expensive Yoga mats.

I mean, sure, it's really good that you have recognised the worth of many
nonmaterialistic things, but you're not really helping if most of your life is
materialistic. Note I'm not forcing anyone into doing away with their
material- and technology-driven lives.

All I'm saying is Thoreau's ideology and the modern person are not compatible,
unfortunately. And because of that, all we can do is sit around and study his
writings conceptually, abstractly, without gaining the experience he wanted
everyone to have. Few of us could stand 2 years of living the way he did, yet
the presenter actually feels the need to tell his audience, (I'm
paraphrasing), "Sure! Thoreau ONLY did it for 2 years, and he had mom and
sister come out once a week to help!" Um...how long would the average person
be able to stand it?

The OP says it is easy to take Thoreau out of context, because he is so
quotable, yet continues to do this very thing!

"Moreover, you must walk like a camel, which is said to be the only beast
which ruminates when walking. When a traveler asked Wordsworth's servant to
show him her master's study, she answered, 'Here is his library, his study is
out of doors.'"

He doesn't mean that you need to go and collect data electronically on people
or go on a Google car and photograph every single major street to store it,
analyse it, and show it to the world on a computer. If you believe this is
what he is saying, this is called "reappropriation".

Lastly, let me quote again from his book titled Walking--a recommended read
because it is short, yet illustrates his ideology.

"In short, all good things are wild and free. There is something in a strain
of music, whether by its wildness, to speak without satire, reminds me of the
cries emitted by wild beasts in their native forests. It is so much of their
wildness as I can understand. Give me for my friends and neighbors wild men,
not tame ones. The wildness of the savage is but a faint symbol of the awful
ferity with which good men and lovers meet."

Stop trying to tame Thoreau's ideas. Let's not try to make ourselves feel
better by saying we have some things in common with him or stretching his
ideas.

I go into nature to get away from my computers and society and everyone else.
It is my own personal struggle or inner conflict. I don't need to try to
convince others of how good we can have it if we just adopted Thoreau's ideas,
because by our current standards, he would be considered an extremist.

In that same passage above, Thoreau goes on to talk about how domesticated
animals need to reassert themselves.

Please, let's not dilute Thoreau just to make us feel better, because (1) most
people who don't agree with him will not feel better about it; and (2) most
people who want to agree with him will find that they cannot adopt his ideas
or lifestyle. I think the HN crowd is too smart to adopt some half-assed idea.
They'd rather come up with their own idea or take on how to find a balance
between technology, nature, and tackling startup culture.

~~~
forsaken
I think you missed the point.

He was poking fun at the current culture by calling him a "content creator".

I saw this talk in person, and it was obvious in that context.

~~~
6ren
> The OP says it is easy to take Thoreau out of context, because he is so
> quotable, yet continues to do this very thing!

This was also a joke, which was very clear to me from reading it (I wasn't
there). I thought it was hilarious how straight he played it.

~~~
achompas
I'm reading this as a sarcastic riff on parent, but parent is right.
Seriously, follow Maciej on Twitter. He'd die before seriously referring to
someone -- especially Thoreau -- as a content creator.

~~~
6ren
That's the problem with irony, it can be difficult to be sure, unless you have
out-of-band info about the speaker. As in
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing with the comment I replied to (by
_forsaken_ , which pointed out a joke), and disagreeing with the long comment
it replied to (by _kafkaesque_ ). You might think I'm being sarcastic now, but
I can't do anything more than tell you I'm not.

Wait... I can _show_ you I wasn't sarcastic, by noting the signal that Maciej
Ceglowski was joking: he longwindedly repeated (almost) verbatim a long phrase
describing the thing that he deplored, and that he would do.

    
    
      Tim Ferriss-style lifehacks and inspirational quotes
    

I'm not sure exactly how this is a signal, but it is unusually redundant
(making it a signal); and I perhaps part of the humour is that by repeating
it, it's presented _as if_ a new thing, unrelated to the previous duplication.
_Ah, the joys of dissecting humour._

Another signal is the general tone is jokey (and he was even explicit about
trolling the audience with Ayn Rand).

Not sure why I'm going to such trouble to clarify. I guess I just don't like
being misunderstood. Also, it happened to me once before that someone thought
I was being sarcastic online when I wasn't, and I didn't correct it (which I
later felt was wrong of me).

~~~
achompas
I agree with your point for what it's worth!! I also think it's easy to tell
Maciej is kidding solely from his writing, but I figured I was biased since I
follow him.

------
kennon42
If you liked Maciej's talk, you should definitely check out his blog:
[http://idlewords.com](http://idlewords.com)

Warning: kiss the next several hours goodbye because he's simply an
outstandingly interesting and funny writer - imagine something like a cross
between Bill Bryson and Douglas Adams and you wouldn't be too far off the
mark.

------
justinator
I'm not trying to be snarky, but, "Being an Entrepreneur", and, "Be very much
like Thoreau"are two very disparate goals.

I would very much like everyone to read Walden - it's a wonderful, incredible,
life-changing book. But the feeling I get at the end is not, "Man, I should
start a business, where people can post up images of things they want! And
then other people can see if they want them! And then, then! We can
advertise!"

The feeling you get, after reading the book - well, the feeling _I_ got was
more, "I'm still in this system, I want out, I can't, the world is truly
monstrous". We can all live in our own little cabins in the woods for a little
while, we can all do our own little civil disobedience - but like young
adults, most of us grow out of it, because to hold this course is very hard
and greed is a very easy trap to fall into.

If you like Thoreau, one of the most obvious path to take would then be
Emerson and his essays. They're all wonderful, but I don't know what lessons
you learn from them can be applied to "start a business with someone elses
money that hopefully goes public", except that that itself is a fool's errand.
I don't know what either would say about social media or whatever it's called
know, execept that it's simply abstracts the real nature of actual
interaction, into something that's lost the important parts of it. What would
Thoreau say about working so long hours typing away at a keyboard? He would
say that's the worst thing at all: work only as much as you want, and no more.
That's a whole chapter in Walden. How many people here, truly do that?

Things to think about.

and also, what a lame title for a talk - there already WAS a Walden Two, and,
for a sci-fi book, it's not half bad. Kinda weak, but worth a read [0]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_Two](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_Two)

And it itself was a take on how to bring Thoreau idea into a community
setting. It's a little more than, "Write journals!", and "Know Yourself!".
This talk - trying to take a masterpiece book, and apply it to your life, and
trying to talk about it in bite-sized chunks.... it's not working for me. Show
me, don't tell me.

~~~
greenyoda
_" Being an Entrepreneur", and, "Be very much like Thoreau" are two very
disparate goals._

But it sounds like Maciej's goal was not to be an entrepreneur, but to be able
to support himself running a one-man business. Being self-reliant that way
instead of depending on a job in someone else's company might be quite in
agreement with the simple life that Thoreau advocated.

------
jamesbritt
Some info about Henry David Thoreau, including how to correctly pronounce his
last name.

[http://www.walden.org/thoreau](http://www.walden.org/thoreau)

~~~
Simucal
This movie is great. There is a sequel I've been meaning to watch.

------
alexpopescu
> This is a picture of me in 2009, right around when I started Pinboard. I'm
> standing on a balcony in Botosani county, Romania, in the poorest county in
> the European Union.

I had no idea (based on his name) that Maciej started Pinboard in Romania.

~~~
ccozan
Neither do I. Impressive. Never used Pinboard, but I'll take a look.

PS. And actually Bulgaria is the poorest, Romania does better.

~~~
RexRollman
I am not a Pinboard "user" but it is a great way to find stuff to read. The
system has a very nice url system. For example:

[https://pinboard.in/t:minimalism](https://pinboard.in/t:minimalism)

~~~
mjs
I'm a pinboard.in user, but I actually find the URL scheme annoying, at least
compared to delicious. I find it much easier to type

[http://delicious.com/username/tag](http://delicious.com/username/tag)

than

[http://pinboard.in/u:username/t:tag](http://pinboard.in/u:username/t:tag)

~~~
jarek
The argument has been that by specifying what each URL part is, you can build
a link to [https://pinboard.in/t:minimalism](https://pinboard.in/t:minimalism)
in the first place. Is delicious.com/minimalism the tag minimalism or the user
minimalism? And what is delicious.com/settings? In practice, delicious gets
around this by making all-user tags accessible at
[http://delicious.com/tag/iphone](http://delicious.com/tag/iphone), but then
you can't have a user named "tag". Or "tools", or "help", or "about", or
"terms", and there's probably more and they might change every now and then.

------
graeme
For those who do journaling: how do you do it?

Paper? Software? Either way, what kind of system do you have for organizing
your notes?

~~~
FreezerburnV
I actually use a nice paper journal (with awesome leather Portal cover sleeve,
so I can replace the book inside) and a fountain pen, in general. As well as
just starting to adopt this system (which was on HN recently):
[http://www.bulletjournal.com/](http://www.bulletjournal.com/)

The main things I've learned is that indexing is incredibly important. Number
your pages, and keep at least one page in the front of the journal for
referencing what pages belong to what category. Don't overthink the
categories, sometimes broad is good. Most often I just use "Random
thoughts/writing" or "programming".

It might seem odd to keep an actual, physical paper journal in this day and
age. But for some reason, the tactile nature of it just feels right. I have
more motivation to pop open my paper journal and physically write some things
than I do to pop open VIM, or Evernote, or Simplenote, or whatever. Even on a
phone or a tablet. (especially so, in fact) On top of that, there's less of a
chance of a paper journal being stolen, you never have to worry about internet
connectivity (Evernote, non-premium), or battery life, or having to fight a
multitasking system... the list goes on. I've had times where I just want to
take a quick note and I end up fighting something auto-opening, or already
being open, or waiting for a new note, that I just get frustrated and end up
back with real paper. I haven't found anything that is as flexible or works as
well to date. (I also _HEARTILY_ recommend you get either blank paper, or
graph paper. particularly graph paper. I have a huge notebook I carry around
of graph paper, and it has proven invaluable for so many things. from
diagramming software code flow, to diagramming an interface, or even just
plain writing notes. this is what I use: [http://www.jetpens.com/Maruman-
Mnemosyne-Imagination-Noteboo...](http://www.jetpens.com/Maruman-Mnemosyne-
Imagination-Notebook-A4-8.3-X-11.7-5-mm-X-5-mm-Graph-70-Sheets/pd/4076) It's
good for carrying in a bag/backpack for serious needs, not as great for a
journal. I tend to have both with me)

~~~
alexpopescu
I've recently tried adopting the
[http://www.bulletjournal.com/](http://www.bulletjournal.com/) system, but
using Evernote. Unfortunately I _wasn 't able to make it work for me_.

After just a few days I've found myself not being able to figure out at a
glance what's next and having to go back and forth the notes. That even if
I've spent the time to inter-link things. But at this point I should also
mention that in my role (product manager) I have quite a few projects on my
plate at all time and a month long list of things is usually in the high
tens/hundred items (and doesn't include meetings).

I was really attracted by the BulletJournal system as it felt in a way similar
to what I've been using, but with a nicer/cleaner visual representation.
Basically I have my long list of things in a tool. Every Monday I spend a bit
of time extracting what's the focus for the week into a separate file. In this
file I also log daily activity. At the end of the week there's a short review
and then I'm archiving the week.

~~~
FreezerburnV
I'm sorry you weren't able to make it work. That kind of workload sounds like
a lot for anything. You might consider using something like Omnifocus or
Things in order to keep track of all of that. (among other solutions for
tracking all of that kind of data) They're a bit more tailor-made for
something like that. Evernote is less of a heavy task-management system as it
is a place to dump a lot of information. (such as the entire web page with a
brownie recipe I have saved. perfect for that, less for managing 10
complicated projects)

Honestly though, it sounds like you have a system already in place that works
well for you. Why switch away? The only thing you might do is use a notebook
to dump all the stuff from one week into, then have your short review on a
separate page(s), then start over. (using indices in the front of the notebook
to keep an easy reference to start of each section. start of week 1, start of
week 1 review, start of week 2, etc.) But I suppose one size does not fit all.
Do what works and helps you keep track of things!

------
dot
if you're inspired by Thoreau, I recommend you check out Dick Proenneke's
little film "Alone in the Wilderness".

First 10 minutes here:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss)

------
ansimionescu
As a Romanian I feel compelled to say that we're far from the poorest economy
in EU/Europe. Romania is still a standard Eastern European/post-communist
hellhole (although slowly improving), but not _that_ poor.

~~~
random2
He did say "county" not "country", although it seems a typo. However based on
Wikipedia data
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union))
Romania and Bulgaria are the poorest countries in Europe by GDP per capita at
only 2% difference(47% vs 49% of EU GDP - 12,100 vs 12,600 euro respectively).
Compared to Hungary (14,700 euro), I'd say we're (I'm also Romanian) not far,
but rather close to being the poorest economy in EU and we're also the 9th
poorest in Europe ([http://www.techscio.com/the-poorest-country-in-
europe/](http://www.techscio.com/the-poorest-country-in-europe/)).

That being said, I didn't know Maciej built Pinboard in Romania, that's pretty
cool, I'd say. I wonder what was he doing in Botosani :)

------
lotsofcows
Very nicely written. Funny and interesting. I liked the mention of the
slightly less scrupulous side of Thoreau too - he also mentions dining with
friends quite a lot; his financial figures don't add up; and his attitude
toward the poor was not as enlightened as one would expect from an
intelligent, educated, clever man.

------
throwawaw
Wow, he's a really good writer. I didn't expect that to be such a pleasure to
read.

~~~
simonw
If you liked that, check these out:

The Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel:
[http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda-
weehawken_burrito_t...](http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda-
weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm)

A Rocket To Nowhere:
[http://idlewords.com/2005/08/a_rocket_to_nowhere.htm](http://idlewords.com/2005/08/a_rocket_to_nowhere.htm)

Scott and Scurvy:
[http://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm](http://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm)

And everything else on [http://idlewords.com/](http://idlewords.com/)

(The pinboard blog is great too, I particularly liked
[http://blog.pinboard.in/2011/10/the_fans_are_all_right/](http://blog.pinboard.in/2011/10/the_fans_are_all_right/))

~~~
radiowave
Agreed. I don't believe there's any other blog that I've so consistently
enjoyed reading as idlewords.

~~~
vithlani
Seconded. (Thirded? Fourthed?)

Anyways, the man has a way with words.

------
gavinpc
In the spirit of the OP's message, I am bookmarking this page, with Ctrl+D.

------
dominotw
Now I have portlandia song stuck in my head. Dream of the 90's is alive in
portland...portland.

------
bbg
persevere

