
Amazon has made a change to the way it sells books, which may hurt publishers - happy-go-lucky
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/5/19/15596050/amazon-buy-box-publishing-controversy
======
sfifs
This article reads like a poorly researched PR piece for the publishing
industry.

They're not really saying anywhere.the books by third party sellers are fake.
Then they must have come from the publisher legitimately one way or the other
and hence the publisher must have been paid. The only difference is how much
he was paid. It's likely some country branch of the publisher cut a deal to
unload some books for cheap to a distributor and that's coming back to Amazon.
So the publishing executive in that market made lot's of revenue in his
scorecard at the cost of cannibalizing Amazon account seller's business.

This sort of thing is quite common and perfectly legal.

~~~
Amezarak
Unless you're buying a relatively new book, book buying on Amazon is an
incredibly painful experience. I've given up almost altogether. There are a
number of outright fakes, but the main problem is the _massive_ number of
really crappy print-on-demand OCR/scanned books.

The only way I do continue to buy books on Amazon if they're sold by Amazon
and fulfilled by Amazon, which it sounds like that will generally be less
findable. It simply isn't worth the trouble. I have no sympathy for the
publishers - I have no problem at all buying used books - but there is more to
the story.

~~~
brudgers
A few years ago, I started losing trust in Amazon as what was once a straight
forward transaction began to look more and more like an algorithmic semi-scam.
I would look for some item and the featured results would be 20% or more than
the same item in some duplicated form.

For many years Amazon's business model was to generate revenue off of straight
forward sales transactions. Today it has shifted to rents and extractions.
Prime is perhaps a good first example. Using it complicates transactions and
Amazon can arbitrage the eligibility and price of items to extract additional
revenues on the fly.

However, textbooks are the prime of example of Amazon's new more extractive
business practices. It's not just that Amazon wholeheartedly adopted the text
book industry's obscene pricing models rather than disrupting them. Nor is it
just that Amazon has extended the obscene pricing to rent out ebook versions
of textbooks. No, the best expression of Amazon's newly found extractive
business practices is in the availability and pricing of used older editions
of textbooks on its platform. In the old days, Amazon was a steady source for
fairly inexpensive obsolescent editions of current textbooks. Once Amazon
seriously entered the textbook business, that seems to have changed and
bargains available with deliberate search have disappeared.

There really was a change of mindset with Amazon Prime. It was a manifestation
of a business cultural value that all customers are not equal as individuals.
Maybe it is possible to position an ecommerce site as an upscale brand while
still selling Schenzhen's spinners and iPhone cases and unlisted electronics
of dubious safety for $0.01.

As I've lost trust in Amazon, I've started using Ebay for online purchases.
Ebay is orders of magnitude more transparent. Transparency is a good way to
create trust. It helps that Ebay's business model is not grossly misaligned
with my wallet. It helps that the marker of trust is between buyer and seller
rather than stars based on customer reviews. A seller with 10,000 transactions
and 99% positive rating is a better indicator of an item's quality than 4
stars based on twenty reviews.

~~~
barking
How is ebay better? The only counterfeit item I have bought on either site was
a dell laptop charger on ebay a few years ago. It used to overheat and stopped
working after only a few weeks use. Another time a product was never shipped
and I had to go through the paypal dispute resolution process which worked
fine if a little slowly. I'd have thought ebay would suffer from the same
problems as amazon with counterfeit products and fake reviews and then it also
has the whole shill bids problem. I moved over to amazon for almost all my
online shopping and so far have not had a problem though I appreciate that may
just be luck on my part.

~~~
res0nat0r
I'm not sure how / what these folks who keep apparently getting scammed are
buying, but I have ~200 books purchased in my history with 3/4 of them most
likely used, and none have been fakes.

I constantly buy / add to my wishlist older hardcover books I'm interested in
reading and will come back and check when the used price is low and buy either
Like New / Very Good / Good and have been satisfied with the results. Nothing
like getting a 800+ page hardcover book with barely any use delivered to your
door for 6-10$.

If one is worried about quality don't by anything used that is less than Very
Good IMO.

------
ricardobeat
They offer no conclusion on how sellers can materialize thousands of copies of
a book out of thin air.

"Not a single cent goes to the publisher" can only be true if they are selling
illegal copies printed somewhere else, which I imagine would be extremely easy
to spot. If they are buying 1) "slightly used" books, the publisher and author
have already been paid, 2) "not for resale" copies, why on earth would the
publisher print _thousands_ of promotional copies? Such nonsense.

~~~
kevingadd
Illegal copies are also a rampant problem on Amazon, though, so this increases
the odds that the big Buy Button ships you a counterfeit.

[https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256](https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256)

[https://www.ft.com/content/5dba91b0-e1c7-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e...](https://www.ft.com/content/5dba91b0-e1c7-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb)

[https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-
starch...](https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch.html)

~~~
billpollock
We've had at least 5 books counterfeited on Amazon. In each case the
counterfeit inventory replaced our inventory and owned the Buy button.

------
dilemma
This is a long article that confuses the issue. The root of the problem, if it
even exists, is that some sellers sell bootleg copies on Amazon. That is what
the article should be about rather than the buy box.

~~~
KevinEldon
Do you have any evidence of this kind of copyright violation for books on
Amazon? I can imagine it does happen, but if it happens at any sort of
significant scale (say more than e-book piracy) the publishers or the author
of this publisher-friendly article would have mentioned it.

~~~
dilemma
I don't, but the article posits that there are thousands of copies of a title
sold that don't come from a publisher, so it is implied. They also mention
promotional copies but that is no large quantity.

~~~
billpollock
at least 1500 copies in our case.

------
cynix
> the big five publishers theorized that third-party sellers might be selling
> some of the free promotional copies… which have no such marking on their
> covers and often end up sold to bookstores like the Strand.

If these promotional copies already being sold by other bookstores then what's
the problem? If they shouldn't be sold then the publishers should clearly mark
them as not for sale.

> Others have suggested that they might be buying books with minor cosmetic
> damage from warehouses…

Presumably these slightly damaged books were originally printed and sold by
the publishers too, so what's the problem?

~~~
falcolas
> Presumably these slightly damaged books were originally printed and sold by
> the publishers

Frequently, those copies are fraudulently written off as destroyed at the cost
of the publisher; the publisher didn't make their money off the sale.

> If these promotional copies already being sold by other bookstores then
> what's the problem?

Being sold in a mom&pop bookstore is a very different case than being sold
through the biggest internet retailer.

> If they shouldn't be sold then the publishers should clearly mark them as
> not for sale.

Sometimes it's the authors who get the promotional copies and attempt to give
them out to fans or friendly distributors as a method of marketing; some of
whom are dishonest about their reasons for asking for promotional copies.

------
reeddavid
This was a terrible article. The complaints have nothing to do with the buy
box. I can think of three ways that "publishers aren't getting paid" could be
true:

1) Books are stolen

2) Books are counterfeit

3) Books were purchased through "unauthorized" channels, e.g. free review
copies

None of these is a problem with the Amazon buy box. We don't complain that
"Samsung doesn't get paid when people buy Samsing TVs at Best Buy" and I don't
see how this is any different.

I think Amazon is guilty of a lot of shady practices that harm businesses
(like co-mingling potentially counterfeit _Fulfillment by Amazon_ inventory
with _Ships From and Sold by Amazon.com_ inventory). But this article makes no
sense.

~~~
Sephr
> 3) Books were purchased through "unauthorized" channels, e.g. free review
> copies

I don't see anything wrong with someone reselling a free review copy of a
physical book. If you don't want people reselling free review copies, then
don't give them out in the first place.

Also, I've heard from multiple authors that issue #2 is definitely still a
problem at Amazon.

~~~
reeddavid
Oh I absolutely agree, nothing wrong with people selling review copies. My
point was that review copies for sale is an entirely separate issue from which
seller wins the Amazon Buy Box.

------
mcphage
The only thing that seems off is the Buy Box Winner being out of stock. If
they're out of stock, some other seller should be the Buy Box Winner.
Otherwise it misleadingly looks like everyone is out of stock for that
title—which is bad for buyers, bad for sellers, and bad for Amazon.

~~~
AnssiH
Indeed.

This seems somewhat similar to the issue that often the buy box seller does
not ship to the buyer country (but some other seller, e.g. Amazon, would
ship).

------
crazygringo
Soooo... publishers should start labeling their promotional copies as "not for
resale" and problem solved?

At least from what the article describes, it really does seem that simple.

And this doesn't even appear to have anything to do with Amazon specifically
-- the article even states these promotional copies "often end up sold to
bookstores like the Strand".

~~~
billpollock
Counterfeiting is the real problem.

------
hakanensari
I'm wondering if part of the anxiety is about the used market spilling over
into new - a distinction which to most is about the way a book looks and feels
rather than its commercial provenance. Nothing really stops a book dealer to
list a used book as new if it sufficiently looks like one. And as long as they
have enough reputation clout on Amazon, they will short-circuit the
publishers' sales chain and win the Buy Box.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Nothing really stops a book dealer to list a used book as new if it
> sufficiently looks like one.

Nothing stops them from _listing_ as new even if it doesn't look like one. Its
not like anyone is examining the copy in person before buying on Amazon.

------
DanBC
> Man Booker Prize nominees routinely sell as few as 3,000 copies.

This was really surprising to me. They link to this article.

[http://www.npr.org/2015/09/19/441459103/when-it-comes-to-
boo...](http://www.npr.org/2015/09/19/441459103/when-it-comes-to-book-sales-
what-counts-as-success-might-surprise-you)

------
yellowapple
This _only_ seems to hurt publishers (and maybe consumers, depending on how
the Buy Box algorithm is implemented/designed). This also happens to be a boon
for third-party resellers.

My grandpa is actually one such possible beneficiary of this (though I don't
think he would normally be the default for various reasons). In his
retirement, he volunteers with a fundraising organization that supports his
county's library by reselling donated books; cheaper books are usually sold by
the bag in "book sales" (held adjacent to the library itself), but my
grandpa's specialty is actually the Amazon storefront, through which the more
expensive books are sold. Since there's no acquisition cost (they're donated),
each book can be sold at prices way lower than they could be by for-profit
sellers while still pulling in the same or similar net income.

It sounds like the Buy Box algorithm factors in whether a book is consistently
in stock, however, which is problematic for him (since nearly all his sales
are one-off), and it probably doesn't include non-new products. It's still
potentially beneficial if he gets, say, a pallet of new college textbooks or
something (which hasn't happened yet AFAIK, but hey, one can dream, right?).

------
ilamont
Indie publisher here. I am also a board member of the Independent Book
Publishers Association, which has come out against the new Buy Box policy.

The big question on everyone's mind is where the new third-party books are
coming from. Here are my personal views:

* Many publishers suspect that the books are not actually new, but rather are used from various sources and are being sold as new. However, there hasn't been any proof that this is a widespread phenomenon. OTOH, there is practically no barrier to a seller making a "new" claim for a used book. The main disincentive is Amazon might punish them if it's discovered or enough readers complain.

* Review copies are being sold as new. I know two publishers who have received complaints about this from readers who purchased a "new" book from Amazon, only to discover that it was marked as an ARC or not for resale.

* Third-party sellers are getting their hands on overstock or returns from retailers that were supposed to be pulped or destroyed. I have heard of two businesses that have operated in this realm, but both appear to be legitimately purchasing overstock as opposed to buying copies that should have been destroyed.

* Third-party sellers are accessing wholesale channels intended for retailers or libraries. These sales are legit, but publishers get less money from them. See the Createspace thread below (first two pages) for a discussion of one case.

* Some of the new books are pirated. This is my personal view that is not widely shared, but I believe this is going to be a big problem going forward, based not only on two documented cases this year (Dave Burgess' pirated copy of "Teach Like a Pirate" and Bill Pollock's "Python for Kids", see links below) but also because it's such a widespread phenomenon elsewhere on Amazon. It's a matter of time before pirates discover it's open season for books, and more and more will rush in using cheap short-run digital or print on demand to own the buy box.

There may be other sources as well. If the books are used and are being sold
as such, it's accessed through a wholesaler, or it's overstock sourced
legitimately, that's not an issue. But publishers should be concerned if used
books and review copies are being sold as new, or pirates are eating their
lunch.

1\.
[https://twitter.com/burgessdave/status/849039943561134080](https://twitter.com/burgessdave/status/849039943561134080)

2\.
[https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256](https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256)

3\.
[https://forums.createspace.com/en/community/message/76847#76...](https://forums.createspace.com/en/community/message/76847#76847)

ETA: Wholesale channels bullet and "new" claims details

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
* Used books means the publisher (and author) got paid. It is an issue between the buyer and seller (and Amazon as the broker).

* Why are the publisher producing so many review copies that this is even possible? And why isn't "review copy" plastered on every page? Why doesn't it have a different ISBN number (or no ISBN at all)? This just screams of publisher incompetence.

* Selling legitimate overstock is not a problem. Additionally the publisher (and author) got paid. Selling "destroyed" books is, again, the publisher being incompetent. Typically a publisher will have the first page or front cover returned to prove it was destroyed.

* Fake books are a legitimate problem, but the articles goes out of its way to say that that isn't happening multiple times.

Outside of fake books, most of these other theories read more like conspiracy
and don't make rational sense on the face of it.

~~~
billpollock
* I have no issue with people selling used books. As with any good, if you own it you should be able to resell it.

* Publishers send out review copies to get reviews. I used to mark our review copies but reviewers don't like that. For some, their compensation from whatever source they write for for _is_ the book they review.

* There are numerous entities in the publishing supply chain and always the potential for holes or bad actors.

* We've had five books sold as fakes.

------
coroxout
I don't know if this is only new for books or new in the US or if I somehow
hit a trial of this feature, but I've had this buying a music CD from Amazon
UK. I hit the usual default "Buy" button in the buy box and the CD was shipped
from a third-party seller in another country.

Kind of annoying as it was a Father's Day gift (so the order must have been
about a year ago) and the unexpected international shipping meant it didn't
arrive until after the day itself. I'm pretty sure there'd been no indication
of this on the sale page.

------
wdb
Yes, lately I have bought books at Amazon that were not originals. Even now
they sell print outs of ebook only books. Really annoying, takes more time now
to make sure you get proper ones.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Isn't selling used goods, but not clearly labelling them as such, potentially
illegal in some jurisdictions?

------
graeme
I wonder if this affects createspace books. I don't see how it would, but then
maybe I'm missing an angle.

------
atemerev
Publishers' lament. Good riddance.

~~~
LogicX
Exactly... in a world where you can self publish both print and electronic
versions of books... are publishers adding enough value to justify protection
of their profits?

~~~
thaumasiotes
They're adding a lot of value. Part of my novel-buying process on Amazon is
checking the publisher, specifically because self-published books have such
awful writing.

~~~
atemerev
You didn't like "The Martian", did you?

~~~
thaumasiotes
No, I didn't, but in that case the problem wasn't the horrible writing I
complain about above. "The Martian" has much better writing than the general
run of self-published novels.

------
ClassyJacket
This clickbait title explains nothing.

------
Havoc
Seems like a natural progression in the survival of the fittest sense.

------
avh02
clickbait title intensifies.

