
Ask HN: Friend's 15 year old wants to drop out, I've been asked to intervene - shawndumas
After reading the letter he wrote to his principal (included below because HN won't allow an Ask HN post over 2000 characters) I think I am going to disappoint his parents and recommend that as soon as he gets his GED that he go ahead and drop out.<p>Any advice / thoughts / concerns / considerations anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated.
======
mattbee
Wow.

It's definitely a goofy, pompous, rambling letter written by someone who
doesn't know what he doesn't know yet. But assuming the business is
profitable, there's zero chance that you or his parents can stop him from
pursuing it at this point. I think this 15-year old's decision is made, and
the point to intervene might have been when he started employing people.

I wasn't particularly academic, but wasn't driven / confident enough at
college to start a business either. So I got my grades, degree etc. first, and
have never given a CV to anyone. But I think anyone who gets that far, got
through education to 18 or 21 and says they got _nothing_ out of it years
later is pretty stupid or short-sighted.

A year of computer science at college turned me from a know-it-all hacker into
a grateful know-nothing. Two years of classics before that showed me how to
spot when I was hopelessly bored and only trying to fulfil others'
expectations, while I built a great relationship with my wife. You get
something out of such a dense set of life experiences, but you might have to
work it out what it was afterwards.

I'd say to the parents let him go, with a stern & overblown warning that he'd
better not fuck it up. If he's burned out or bored of the hosting business at
17 or 18, there's nothing stopping him from resuming his education if that's
what he wants - it's just doing things in a different order.

~~~
ams6110
Yes, he sounds like every 15 year old I know (including my own son) who is
absolutely convinced that school is useless and a waste of time. That said,
for most people the purpose of school is to prepare them to be able to support
themselves and their families, and it sounds like he's basically able to do
that now.

School _is_ something you can always come back to, but once you start into the
family/kids part of your life it becomes a lot more difficult for most people.
The best time to be in school is when you don't have any responsibilities to
support anyone else.

~~~
shantanubala
I think Neil Tyson does a beautiful job of explaining why basic education is
important:

 _There are people who say “I'll never need this math -- these trig identities
from 10th grade or 11th grade.” Or maybe you never learned them. Here's the
catch: whether or not you ever use the math that you learned in school, the
act of having learned the math established a wiring in your brain that didn't
exist before, and it's the wiring in your brain that makes you the problem
solver._

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0E-9uJgDZU&feature=youtu...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0E-9uJgDZU&feature=youtu.be&t=53s)

~~~
InfiniteLoopx64
Can I not learn "math" wiring from doing other activities that ACTUALLY
benefit me, such as programming? The very act of owning a business and such is
giving me the PRACTICAL knowledge while still building the wiring. It's win
win.

~~~
shantanubala
I didn't say you can't -- I was simply adding to this:

> That said, for most people the purpose of school is to prepare them to be
> able to support themselves and their families, and it sounds like he's
> basically able to do that now.

The real question you have to ask is whether you can do both (impractical and
practical) -- if you can do both, then it is clearly better than doing one.

You may not realize it now, but a lot of things that seem impractical can
become very useful (or at the very least, fascinating) when provided with the
right context. For example, if you ever want to learn about how your computer
works on the inside, knowing basic physics will give you better perspective on
what's happening. More obscure stuff like Quantum Tunneling starts appearing
in technologies like NAND flash memory -- it's not necessarily practical to
know all that, but I'm very happy that I know it.

~~~
InfiniteLoopx64
Funny you mention Quantum tunneling as I love delving into quantum mechanics
and various inner topics such as tunneling. I also enjoy going into the
philosophical elements of said quantum mechanics. Cool thing is, I do all that
in my free time, not at school. I like to keep an open mind and use the
information on the internet to broaden my knowledge.

~~~
shawndumas
have you seen minute physics on YouTube?

~~~
InfiniteLoopx64
Yes and I very much enjoy it.

~~~
shawndumas
then you'll love these:

Veritasium - <http://www.youtube.com/user/1veritasium>

Sixty Symbols - <http://www.sixtysymbols.com/>

Periodic Videos - <http://www.periodicvideos.com/>

Crash Course - <http://www.youtube.com/user/crashcourse>

The Brain Scoop - <http://www.youtube.com/thebrainscoop>

Smarter Every Day - <http://www.youtube.com/destinws2>

Vi Hart - <http://www.youtube.com/vihart>

George Hart - <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTl0dASnxto6j2wlVs5Bs2Q>

Numberphile - <http://www.numberphile.com/>

Vsauce - <http://www.youtube.com/user/Vsauce>

TED-Ed - <http://www.youtube.com/teded>

MinuteEarth - <http://www.youtube.com/user/minuteearth>

------
codva
Neither of my kids have ever been to school (k-12). One is in college now, the
other just turned 17 and is considering her college options, of which there
appear to be plenty based on the amount of mail she is getting from colleges.

Dropping out has a stigma, unfortunately. Homeschooling, not so much anymore.
So I'd recommend he quit school to homeschool, studying mostly whatever he
needs to do on a day to day basis to run his company. The end result is
basically the same, and depending on where they live, the Principal may be
powerless to stop the homeschooling decision. Maybe he can offer to take a
class or two at junior college, or on Khan Academy to mollify his parents that
he is still doing something and that their kid is not a "dropout."

If you want to let me know what state they are in I can give you a basic idea
of the homeschooling regulations for that state.

------
il
He founded a startup with $350K in revenue and his parents will be
disappointed? Really? This guy is not your typical at-risk high school
dropout. He's clearly a true entrepreneur and a winner. At this point, he can
pretty much write his own ticket in life. He doesn't need the arbitrary rules
and stifling structure of high school to be successful.

His parents grew up in a very different world, and they need to understand the
world has changed. Education and keeping your head down in a stable corporate
job are not the ticket to prosperity anymore.

~~~
eps
> _a true entrepreneur and a winner_

The problem is that he might be a _lucky_ winner. As per the "once - you're
lucky, twice - you're good" expression. He's on a roll now, but if it all
collapses (350k split to 12 employees and running costs - that's not really
something to write home about), what are the chances that he'd be able to
recreate the success? I don't know. Nobody knows.

He's effectively not hedging the risk of future failures.

If his current company does well, it'll be OK. But if it fails, he may end up
facing more trouble than he can handle, all due to not having basic checkboxes
ticked on the resume.

~~~
InfiniteLoopx64
You've made good points and it is something I'm worried about, however, I do
think that as the other commented below this one pointed out. I'm a prime
candidate for many other hosting companies and with a little work I can re-
secure those "check-boxes"

~~~
eps
You _think_ that you are a prime candidate. In reality, you will need formal
certifications and other checkboxes to get a job in a larger company, and you
will find it difficult to find a smaller company with more relaxed hiring
policies that is actually hiring (and offering what you want). The likelihood
of you needing to _hide_ the lack of basic formal education is very high.

Risk management is something that doesn't really correlate with being 15 year
old. But you are at the point where you are about to discard conventional
arrangements for advancing through life and try and do something very unique.
The more unique it is, the higher the chances of it not working out (because
otherwise everyone would've been doing it), so do _not_ burn any bridges and
_do_ think through your plan B for the shittiest circuimstances moving forward
(like the economy receeding, people not having money to pay for Minecraft
servers, inflation eating up your profits, etc).

Lastly, on a more general note, the benefits of fundamental education are hard
to distill in a concise form, but they are significant. Knowing how things
work outside of the circle of your immediate interests, what people tried,
explored and what mistakes they made... all this makes you a person who is
smarter than the rest, and in the fastest way possible. You can, for example,
re-invent calculus (and it's been done on more the one occassion), but that's
highly inefficient way to go about it. Learning from others is the only way to
get in a territory where you can truly innovate. But again if you don't see
yourself ever desiring to do that, then it's hard to persuade you otherwise.

All in all - don't drop out. There's always another 350k to be earned, but
there's no better time to absorb the knowledge than while you are young. It's
a once in a lifetime opportunity, don't waste it.

~~~
shawndumas
I barely made it out of HS and have no further degree

and yet, with a CISCO certification I had no trouble getting plenty of job
offers

I decided to change job tracks and focused on front end engineering and got
hired at Yahoo! (after 7 rounds of grueling interviews including a coding
interview).

I really think you are over stating the importance of a degree

------
biscarch
From my experiences of HS/College in the US, I wish someone had told me I
could've gotten a GED, taken the SAT/ACTs and gone to college when I was 15. I
feel as though I missed out on advancing my knowledge at a time in my life
when I could focus on it with vast amounts of my time and energy. Although I'm
not "behind" the average progression of someone at my stage in life, I feel as
though I'm behind where I could be, had I known there was the alternate path.

~~~
rayiner
One of the administrators at my law school dropped out of high school, got a
GED, and went to Harvard undergrad. Growing up, I always believed that
colleges cared intensely about what classes you took in high school, etc. They
don't. Nobody cares what you did in high school as long as you keep up a 4.0
in whatever classes you did take. People will care where you went to
undergrad, people will care where you got your MBA, but nobody will care about
your high school (barring making old-money connections at a place like Andover
or Exeter).

I quite enjoyed my high school experience, but for kids who didn't, I wouldn't
hesitate for a second to push them to get out as soon as possible, and maybe
take community college classes for awhile until they're ready for college.
Lot's of people who hate high school thrive in the more self-directed
environment of college.

~~~
biscarch
Not sure about the Harvards of the world, but I'm pretty sure the college I
ended up going to only cared about my ACT score, which was > double the
minimum score required for them.

I know many people in my HS enjoyed it and were challenged by the classes.
Personally I took as many AP courses as I could get my hands on, but the two
versions of an AP class seemed to be really slow pace and really high
percentage busywork.

By the time my senior year hit, for example, I was attending just enough of my
AP Calc class to stay in it and when I was there I slept. AP Calc was my
favorite course in HS (because of the math, not nap time), but between the
lack of content and slow pace, I couldn't stay awake. I always got points off
for not showing work on tests, etc, because I did the work in my head and the
time it took to write everything out wasn't worth the ~2 points it cost me.

My college experience wasn't much better. These days I assume it's because I
spent the extra four years in HS. I had academic and athletic scholarships,
but the classes were ridiculous and of the same HS variety. Sometimes I wonder
if applying to places like Stanford would have helped the situation, but when
I see the course setups I'm not so sure.

I'd agree that college is more self-directed than HS, but I don't believe it's
self directed enough.

------
dshankar
He stands to learn far more by dropping out and trying to grow his business
than by taking chemistry classes in high school.

– If his business succeeds, he has a great career ahead of him.

– If his business fails, he will gain practical and useful skills &
experiences that cannot be taught in school.

Assuming he is a good self-learner (it appears he is), his skills will make
him marketable to a variety of Silicon Valley companies (Facebook, Google,
Mozilla, etc.) Worst case, in a year or two, he'll be able to write a great
essay for college applications with a reasonable chance of getting into a top
notch university.

[I'm a 21yo college dropout & YC alum. Some of the things I worked on
succeeded, and others failed.]

------
elptacek
A teacher approached my mother when I was 15 and strongly suggested that I be
allowed to take the GED and move on to college. Later, an employer approached
both of my parents and strongly suggested that I be allowed to take the GED
and attend culinary school. Both adults were ignored.

Outside of these two, there was no guidance available to me for seeking an
education beyond high school. To this day, I believe that this is still the
norm in rural America. If it were not for a community of educated friends, it
may have been another decade of rough living for me before I went to college.
This contributes to one half of my opinion: in some circumstances, the
secondary school environment has nothing to offer the student. In this case,
it is evidently time to "move on."

The other half of my opinion is nearly directly contradictory. It comes from
the part of my life education garnered over the past 13 years of being a
parent. If I try to cast my mind into the situation where, two years hence, I
will have to face the decision of allowing my first born to set foot out into
a world he may not be mature enough to handle, some reservations are
immediately apparent. I am counting on having a few more years to teach this
person to manage his life (shop for food, keep his person and effects hygenic)
and to make good decisions. It would take some significant reassurance and
possibly some means of monitoring his well being to provide me with the peace
of mind that would result in my ultimate blessing.

In the four years you attend high school, pure academic enrichment is not (or
should not be) the only skills you acquire. As a slightly older person
attending college, the total lack of life preparedness exhibited by the other
inhabitants of my dorm was nothing short of astonishing. I believe that my
focus on getting an education allowed me to wade through the "temptations of
freedom" that my these kids could not. That focus was due to having spent most
of my young life dealing with parents who partied all the time. My son doesn't
have that life, and so I don't trust he has that focus, either. Your friend's
son may believe he does, but as the parent of a teenager (who used to be a
great deal more reasonable than he has been in the past few months)... you'd
have a really tough time selling me on that.

Having said all that nonsense, I would start out by making a list of the pros
and cons of taking the GED and heading off to college at 15/16 and then
systematically plan to address all of the cons. And make sure to roll in some
means of adapting when the plans don't work.

~~~
shawndumas
without disagreeing with a thing you wrote, you're assuming that he even
wants/needs to go to college

~~~
elptacek
You make a good point. It was completely necessary for me, not at all for Tom.
If this kid can position himself in such a way that he has access to the kind
of resources that universities have without having to go to one... he should
be quite happy.

~~~
shawndumas
having already had the meeting with his parents one of the biggest problems
that was identified was that they had no objective means to evaluate his
abilities.

it's like he was a piano prodigy and they were deaf... both of them were
stunned to hear my assessment of his abilities and accomplishments. it was
like they could suddenly hear.

it was very much an emotional and pivotal moment in the meeting. my wife was
crying... and to be honest it was all i could do to not cry.

his skill set is only incidentally related to minecraft; he could make a
living at any of the three major disciplines that he has demonstrable
competence in. they were so sad that all this time they were missing out on
how happy they could have been for him.

------
whalesalad
How to win friends and influence people. Grab a copy. Read it or the cliffs
notes, time permitting. Revise your letter.

~~~
shawndumas
op here; it's the 15yo's letter not mine and it's been sent already.

but I do agree, it was somewhat off-putting.

~~~
recuter
I find the Principal saying "If I was a good student I would simply do what is
asked of me." equally off-putting.

The frustrated tone of the letter suggests he thinks he can get the principal
to agree with his position using reason because what other possible reason
could there be for the disagreement other then lack of understanding? He's 15,
can't fault him for that.

~~~
gte910h
The way adults treat teens is often unfortunate. It's often caused by the way
teens treat adults, but then again, the ADULTS are the one who are supposed to
be the bigger person in the exchange and break the cycle.

Sadly, while there are some great educators, there are some very lackluster
ones as well.

------
GiraffeNecktie
I'm astonished that anyone would hesitate for even a nano-second to give this
kid anything less than a godspeed and God bless. I'm sorry, but the kid has
already launched himself into orbit, he's not going to come back to earth for
the sake of two or three years of choking down generic, all-purpose pablum at
the local high school.

~~~
blowski
Totally agree. His ego is orbiting way out there right now, and I can't see
him sitting down to concentrate writing a history paper.

------
frendiversity
I dropped out of high school in grade 11. I wish I had done it sooner. I am
29.

Unfortunately, I had no support from anyone and ran away from home to get
away. School made me want to kill myself, every day. I stopped doing it, I
flunked everything, my computers at home got taken away in response. My entire
life had become a prison.

Some things that have bothered me:

-Not going to college and feeling like I missed out was a big complex for a long time, feeling like I was falling behind socially and intellectually (which is true but not all bad). I was not prepared for the social skills that people develop there in the process of mentally/emotionally beating each other the head. I have had to deal with peers more socially skilled than I using tricks and experience to throw me off many times, which I see in retrospect having gained enough experience.

-Also not going to college has stunted my intellectual development. I am not as good as I could be and I know it, though I also know that I would likely have had the same social difficulties and not succeeded there anyway. Something like Khan Academy, some guidance, and some support would have helped with this, but perhaps even then I would have been a bit behind my peers earning PhDs, I would have no way to know.

-Peers often hold their degree over me, to this day. Along with this, being judged and stigmatized as "the dropout" and being treated by old peers as inferior no matter what kind of success I achieve, possibly because I am different and they are somewhat uncomfortable with that.

-The road of achievement, especially early on, without the support of a social group or educational institution that I could deal with, was probably a lot more hellish than it should have been. I was naive to a lot of things and didn't have the experience or understanding as to how to apply myself. Especially being a runaway and not being able to take care of myself, but feeling that I had no other options and had no support from anyone made me feel hopeless and desperate and gave me a huge chip on my shoulder, swinging between "I'm fucked and should just crawl in a gutter" and "I have to fight to get revenge" for half a decade+.

My perception by relation to my own experience (probably flawed somewhat) They
are going to nail this kid as a cocky bullshitter. Cocky, sure, but that's
because they are attacking him for being himself and it's a defensive response
to that. Supporting his ego phase is going to be difficult, but try to
remember that they are trying to cut him down for trying to be what he is and
doing what his brain does. Defiantly labeling oneself CEO at that age and
standing up for yourself aggressively is all about grasping for power where
you have none.

Hastily typed, hope it is useful, obviously not complete.

~~~
shawndumas
very helpful.

my biggest fear is that his parents are gonna die on this hill and as soon as
he's legally emancipated he'll sever communications.

~~~
frendiversity
I didn't talk to my parents for years. I needed my life to myself to recover
for a little while, because I felt that I couldn't trust my parents/anyone and
needed freedom to figure myself out. Having zero support and struggling as
hard as I did didn't help improve the situation, it made me angry I was
abandoned and reenforced the distrust.

The best thing they could have done was given me a place to Do My Thing, food,
and electricity, and some warnings about bad habits and explicit and detailed
examples of why they are bad. Instead I struggled and scraped and fell behind
(and picked up some bad habits as a response to the harshness) just trying to
get a room where I could sit and use my computer to make money, and I hated
the world for it. Because the trust wasn't there and I couldn't express
myself, everything they told me was in an angry and authoritative tone and my
brain just blocked it out and made me more introverted.

I knew what I wanted to do and I couldn't understand how they didn't know that
and support it. (I didn't express myself well and I was too weird and high
tech and clever, like I get the impression this kid is.)

Also: At that age a year of school feels like a decade. The people in this
thread saying "what's the big deal about another couple years" are possibly
(if anything like my situation) sentencing this kid to life in hell in his
eyes.

Double addendum: I get along great with my parents now and they support me
entirely.

------
mapt
I would strongly dissuade you from ending your formal education at this time.
That said, your career accomplishments qualify you as 'child prodigy' in the
eyes of college admissions counsellors, on the one hand, and successfully
graduating with C's / D's will if anything hurt your case.

Get your GED. Find a good, large community college at 16, and begin there on a
part-time schedule, perhaps 12 credits a year instead of the normal 24-36. Get
straight A's or don't bother. Now, at any time in your progress towards a
"2-year degree" (including after graduation), you can transfer out to a big-
name university and have most of your classes count. You have an academic
track record that shows you can successfully study, and an extracurricular
that outweighs anyone else's. It enables you to focus your learning, remove
yourself from the often harsh social environment of high school, and put off
the decision about whether you'll begin a traditional college experience for
years, and _still_ be ahead of the game age-wise and credibility-wise.

There is a reasonable chance that your business will fail entirely, or be sold
profitably in the next five years, and this route provides you with long-lived
options, without wasting the time you're wasting now.

------
cimorene12
I think that he should get his GED and drop out. If he's already running a
business with that much revenue, then he stands to learn far more from
dropping out than from staying in high school. I think that you should also
reframe the situation by not calling it "dropping out." He will be
homeschooled in an unschooling environment, which is what it's called when you
let kids do what they want. In his case, what he wants to do is run a business
with ~$350,000 in revenue. That, to me, is much more valuable life experience
than sitting through calculus.

If he decides to go to college later on, if the company fails, then he will
have an incredible admissions essay. The very best colleges look for kids who
are unique and running his own business would definitely make him stand out.
Have his parents read this:
[http://homeschooling.penelopetrunk.com/2012/04/27/top-
univer...](http://homeschooling.penelopetrunk.com/2012/04/27/top-universities-
want-you-to-homeschool/)

------
rayiner
I'd advise the kid to keep his grades up as long as he has to stay in school,
but to drop out and get his GED as soon as possible. Even if his business goes
bust, as long as his GPA is intact he's got a hell of a college admissions
essay on his hands, and honestly colleges won't care whether he got a GED or
not as long as his grades while he was there were good. Unlike getting a
college degree, there is pretty much zero signaling benefit to finishing high
school versus getting a GED, and the kid is 100% correct--high school is a
total waste of time from an educational standpoint. The only thing it could
buy him is maturity, but it's clear that he understands the importance of
developing social skills and if he can manage a dozen employees he's well
ahead of the curve in that dimension.

Again, as long as he doesn't tank his grades trying to do both, the kid has
nothing to lose here.

------
dylangs1030
Impressive. He is managing a company earning over a quarter of a million
dollars in revenue, and he is 15?

There are valid reasons to complete high school, but frankly, this would be a
greater accomplishment on his resume than anything school would offer him.

If he can do this at age 15, and sustain it, he doesn't need school. He's
already succeeded.

------
shawndumas
Hello Mr. [Principal],

I've heard through sources that there have been various meetings conducted
regarding my recent and overall academic performance at [private school]. I'd
like to put some stuff on the table and get your thoughts on a few issues if
you would take the time to read this. As background information I'd like you
to know that I am the owner, CEO, and CTO of [hosting company], LLC a large
Minecraft hosting company with over 5,000 clients and over $350,000 a year in
revenue. We currently staff 12 employees and maintain a network of over 70
high powered server systems in a data-center located in [colo]. With that kept
in mind I'd like to continue to discuss some issues that may have surfaced
within your meetings.

Firstly I'd like to discuss the issue of character within this. As I heard you
discussed this is a problem for you particularly because you feel that "If I
was a good student I would simply do what is asked of me." While this may be a
somewhat accurate statement, I would like you to think a little bit deeper
into the fact that this is not pure rebellion, defiance, or lack of will.
However, the core reason why I have not been completing a majority of
assignments is due to the fact that my work is a full time job in which I'm
constantly required to be present in the work environment as a crucial role to
our day-to-day operations. My presence allows the company to be effective in
providing our offerings as well as playing a crucial role in furthering the
development of the company towards our end goals. Every minute that I'm away
is time, and thus money, lost for the company.

As much as I would love to be able to complete everything that is requested of
me I need to balance that out with thinking about the future of my business,
and down the road, my life. There comes a time when there is simply from a
mathematically validated standpoint, not enough time in the day to complete
one's required duties for multiple operations (work and school) and still get
a decent amount of sleep (I only get about 6 hours of sleep a night by the
way.) You may also try to make the point that school should come before work,
and my question to that is, why? Is it because it will prepare me academically
in life? Well please refer to the below paragraph. Is it because I need to
maintain social contact with people on a regular basis? Is there any reason
why on-line relationships over Skype don't count when almost all elements of
physical relationships are mirrored? If it's none of those what is it?

I'm going to be perfectly honest with you and I think if you keep an open
mind, can understand where I'm coming from on the following issue: I think the
modern school system is flawed from the perspective of someone who knows what
their life's niche is. For me I already know I want to work in the server
administration and networking area. Because of this my education should be
tailored to what I want to learn, similar to college. The problem is, all
information taught in lower level schooling is purely general information,
which, up until grades 7+ is perfectly fine as it teaches you the basics of
life, social skills, and various other things essential to becoming
successful, however, once you get to the higher levels of general education
you are met with a plethora of useless information that you will truly, never
need in life. I have a general understanding of this because I'm currently
living the life of a 15 year old adult, paying my bills, paying taxes,
operating a business, managing employees, etc...

After doing much research (through polling a group of adults ages 25+) I have
found that an overwhelming amount of them state that school is, and was,
simply useless for their later life. I understand that if the information is
not directly relevant to my future in life that the information can be used to
expand my mind and critical thinking skills; however, I'd like you to consider
that on my own time I am expanding my mind and critical thinking skills at a
much more rapid rate than possible in a structured environment in which
teachers have to attend to 20 or so other kids in addition to the distractions
and other deterrents in those types of environments. I can go into much more
detail on that but for sake of keeping this E-Mail short I won't; maybe we can
have an in-person talk sometime regarding this because I hope to be understood
in these matters even though I know it may go against the current prevailing
thoughts on schooling.

One point I know that was brought up was regarding the fact that "Minecraft
hosting won't last forever." Any reasonable person would of course agree with
this statement, games are temporal, and will soon be "out of date" or "old
fashioned", but what I don't think is fully understand is that we have a
business structure setup to last which features many expansions planned in the
near future bringing VPS Hosting, Cloud Hosting, web-hosting, voice server
hosting, DayZ Hosting, among many others, and I can tell you many of these
things will be around for as long as the Internet exists. For perspective, VPS
and cloud hosting are the backbone of the 21st century Internet, allowing
thousands of websites to operate properly with millions of visitors, and
because of this is a rapidly expanding and solid market for the future.

In conclusion I would again like to remind you that anything said here was
said not out of hate, or disrespect (as I have utmost respect for you and the
other administrators), but rather, I'm just sharing my thoughts and opinions
to get your feedback as to them. Thank you for you time. I look forward to
your response whether it be in person or via E-Mail.

(P.S. I'd like to state that the validity of my sources is questionable and
may not be 100% accurate. If I made any false claims please let me know.)

\-- Kind Regards, [Kid] (CEO/CTO) of [hosting company]

~~~
mtrimpe
When talking with a friend of mine about me having dropped out of college
because I was too bored, he once said: "If you were _that_ smart you would've
just finished it next to all your other stuff."

I was pretty much this kid, or close to it, and to this day that statement is
still one of the most valuable, harshest truths to me. So just challenge the
kid to make it both work, run the company _and_ finish high-school. If the kid
is _this_ smart he can do way better than running some VPS hosting company in
the long run.

edit: I'm not from the US, but biscarg's comment sounds like it would be
pretty good for the kid.

~~~
recuter
Maybe there's a point like this to be made about college but I don't
understand how 3 more years of high school would benefit him - what's wrong
with a GED? It just seems so much more time efficient.

~~~
MartinCron
For better or worse, a GED has a stigma as being an inferior option. Just
something to be aware of.

~~~
mindcrime
Sure, right up until you finish a college degree or have enough work
experience that nobody asks about your HS experience. If he just went to a
community college and got an Associate Degree in something, the difference
between having a "real" HS diploma and having a GED vanishes in the wash.
Transfer from the CC to a regular university and he's on the exact same track
as before, except for possibly not going to Princeton or Harvard, and instead
being at $STATE_SCHOOL. Big deal.

Don't get me wrong.. for _most_ kids, I'd suggest going ahead and sticking
around HS and finishing. But it's not very long after high-school when your
high-school "credentials" become totally insignificant.

------
Mz
Check state laws. Since he is a minor, there may be compulsory attendance
laws. Also, until he is of legal age, he may have to do as he is told by his
parents. Look at the state laws. Look at homeschooling laws. Look at the
possibility of attending college part time. Getting him enrolled in college
part time may go over better with the parents and the school system/general
bureaucracy while freeing up time for him to sleep and run his business.

Since he is clearly intelligent and strong willed, I think the best role you
can serve is as a mediator between him and the system/powers that be. Our laws
generally are not designed to account for someone so young and so competent.
Most adults will think he cannot possibly know what is in his own best
interest and, legally, he has little right to decide for himself. Btdt, got
the t-shirt. I managed to advocate for myself anyway, but it was via a form of
emotional blackmail since, as a legal minor, I had no legal right to look out
for my own interests. Emotional blackmail is probably not the best route to go
for a budding entrepreneur. Dealmaking is a better path forward if he can get
any cooperation.

You could also search for laws regarding emancipation of a minor. When I was
14, California passed laws allowing for emancipation at age 15. This means
essentially claiming adult status early for purposes of signing rental
agreements and other contracts. However, it is probably reserved for cases of
abuse. Given his age, I wonder whose name is actually listed as legal owner of
a lot of the business assets. Most businesses will not sign a contract with a
minor because they legally cannot be held to it. If his parents signed for
everything, he needs to keep them on his side. Until he is 18, there is a
legal and practical limit to how much he can tell the adults around him to go
screw themselves. (In cases of abuse, you can stretch that limit because
ending up on the street may be an acceptable alternative. But that hardly
seems to apply to this situation.)

If he were 18, that would be a completely different situation. But he is not.
So legally he likely has no right to just do as he pleases. So if you wish to
help him, you probably need to help him find a reasonable compromise which is
palatable to all parties. If he really wants to be an entrepreneur, this
negotiation process (in which he legally has no real say) will be an excellent
advanced course in dealmaking. If he views it that way, perhaps he can view it
as a challenge to relish instead of just a bunch of pointless obstacles from
idiot adults. If you haven't already, you should both read "getting to yes"
and "the heart and mind of the negotiator".

------
danielweber
Am I the only one here who worked hard in high school and learned stuff? I was
probably doing 60-70 hour weeks studying math, chemistry, physics, geology,
English, and a few electives in between.

Of course I don't use most of that stuff in my daily life, but I'm glad I know
it. And if I had gone into chemistry -- which I was seriously expecting to do
as a freshman in college -- those chem classes would be something I'd be using
in my daily life, of course with a lot more undergrad and grad work on top of
it.

------
protomyth
Get the GED, bank the money, and go to college at your leisure when the
Minecraft hosting plays out.

If High School weren't such a poor learning environment then maybe but this
trend to saddle a student with homework so they are working on school in
excess of 40hrs/week is inhuman. Most adults would be looking for new work
under those conditions, but we frown on students when they don't want to put
up with it. We need creative, spirited young folks, not a bunch of crushed-
soul droids.

------
smilliken
I'd strongly recommend that the choice be left with him.

His parents are responsible for making sure he has the information he needs to
make the right decision, but standing in his way won't protect him; the best
thing they can do for him is stand behind and protect his decision.

I feel strongly about this because I was in the same position. At 14, after
teaching myself to program for several years, I felt that school had a
_negative_ effect on my education (in fact, this was corroborated by
standardized test scores). Instead of proceeding to high school, I decided to
pursue college courses part-time and spend the rest of my time teaching myself
to program.

This was the single best decision I've ever made for myself. I eventually
started taking more courses at my own discretion, and later transferred to
Berkeley to get a degree in math. Now I'm a 23-year old founder of a growing
technology company backed by first-tier investors in Silicon Valley, and no
one has ever asked for my high school diploma (which doesn't exist). I owe
much of this to the advantage I got from the freedom to pursue to my own
interests at such a young age, and having support from family to do so.

I'd be more than happy to talk to him or his parents directly if they're
interested. Feel free to pass along my email: scott@deltaex.com.

------
amorphid
I'm pretty sure the GED was invented for this kid. He's learning a bunch of
stuff now I wish I'd learned at that age. I stayed in school because I didn't
have a better idea, but I certainly would have chased a better opportunity.
Telling him to stay in school is a natural thing to do, but it sounds like
he's old enough to make big decisions for himself.

If the people around hin strong arm him, give him crap, or generally
disapprove of his plan to drop out, it's not going to help him (in my
opinion). Should I be fortunate enough to be in his position at 15, I'd hope
that the people around me would care enough to educate me about my options.
This could include staying in school, pursuing school in some other capacity
(child actors do it), or simply walking away. There's always the opportunity
to go back later, but there's very little chance he'll learn a more valuable
lesson by walking away from something he productive that he cares about
towards something in which his sees little value.

I propose this. His friends and family go to work for him. They agree to help
him make the business more successful. In return, he agrees to pursue a
certain level of education for at least two years. Just one crazy idea.

------
cafard
I vote for GED and dropping out.

I did not go to a particularly good high school, but I didn't think that it
was entirely a waste of time. However, I had no idea what I wanted to do after
finishing my schooling. This kid does. As somebody said, the successful
business will catch somebody's eye in some admissions office. Hell, Alexander
Hamilton was a manager rather than an owner, and Columbia was happy to take
him.

------
pasbesoin
This is not a well-grounded suggestion, but FWIW. Child stars (e.g. film) --
or their parents, although the child's income may well be paying for this --
hire tutors. They cram in concentrated, often one-on-one tutor time and
independent study on top of often full schedules. In part, the concentration
and quality may reduce the total number of hours required.

I don't know this person's income, but would something like this be an option?
Combined with "graduating" early?

In this case, he might be taking the initiative himself, rather than through a
parent. But the mechanics seem workable, even if this is not within some
established paradigm and set of expectations.

In the business world, rather than e.g. the film world, this person might be
considered a "star child". Why not afford him the same opportunity that a film
star would have?

I don't know the socio-economic position of this "[private school]", but this
sounds as if it's in the U.S., and "private school" and some other content
lead me to assume a few things: Both parents are in careers and/or otherwise
too engaged to consider home schooling. There may be enough money in the
family to help with private tutoring in addition to or aside from the kid's
own income. (Much private schooling in the U.S. is not cheap.)

From the language used in our protagonist's letter to his principal, it
appears to me that he could benefit from some additional education. At least
in written English, there is room for improvement.

So... get the degree, and some additional education. But do it your way, with
a concentrated curriculum and instruction that provides the most useful
concentration possible while eliminating as much of the bullshit and crap as
possible.

Just a suggestion for consideration.

~~~
Mz
When I was homeschooling in California, you could opt out of public school by
hiring a tutor for three hours a day (as just one option). According to info I
downloaded here: [http://homeschoollegaladvantage.com/resources/homeschool-
law...](http://homeschoollegaladvantage.com/resources/homeschool-laws-by-
state) you can opt out of school in Colorado by hiring a tutor for four hours
a day, 172 days a year. Compulsory attendance extends to age 17. So his
parents may be in no position to let him simply drop out. They could be
dragged into court for violation of truancy laws.

I tried to suggest this was the stuff to look into. No one upvoted it or
replied to it. It appears to have been completely ignored. But as a former
homeschooling parent and former bright teen who tried to convince parents and
school administrators to let me do early college, etc, I have firsthand
relevant experience. Hopefully, your comment gets a little more notice than
mine did. A fifteen year old simply has no legal right to tell parents and
school "screw you", especially not to run his business. If it were a case of
abuse and he was willing to flee to another state, he might have a bit more
flexibility, though at a cost (a lot of runaways wind up prostitutes and/or
drug addicts -- not normally a better alternative than putting up with parents
and compulsory attendance laws). Those extremes really do not seem to have any
bearing on this specific situation.

~~~
pasbesoin
Sorry, if/as I missed your comment. Looking for it now (commenting here from
another page)...

------
lsc
I passed the test they give pregnant teens (I forget what it's called) which
gives you an equivalency, midway through my junior year.

My parents wouldn't let me drop out and go to junior college, explaining that
I wouldn't graduate.

Of course, they were right. I am just not good at school.

Two years later, when I did graduate, it was 1997. Within months I had a
pretty decent programming job that "required" a college degree.

Nobody has every asked about my high school diploma. (I, of course, never
mention it. Why would I? all the jobs I have had "require" a college degree,
and I don't have one of those, either.)

Anyhow, I gave my parents shit for years about how much money I'd have made if
I had another two years working during the bubble.

We are in another bubble, just like '97. If you have the opportunity to get a
job now? do so. Once the bubble pops, it will be /dramatically/ more difficult
to get a technical job and earn that almost inestimably valuable "first real
job" experience.

You can always go back to college if you can't hack the standards after the
bubble pops. (standards went /way/ up in 2001. I traded down, job-wise, but
retained my pay grade and even though I was working at a less impressive
company, retained a programmer/sysadmin role. I had worked hard and learned a
whole lot since '97- there is no way I would have made that cut without the
experience I gained in those few years.)

If I had gone to college like everyone said I ought, and gotten out in 2001?
Very likely I'd have been unemployed through '06 or so. I'm saying this
because one of the guys I worked with in '97... someone more experienced than
me, and not significantly worse than me? He ended up making sandwiches through
the early oughts. I ended up hiring him for my projects through the mid
oughts; He left me for a real job again in '07, if I remember right.

I mean... there must have been some difference such that I was able to retain
employment through those years and he wasn't... but he was pretty good. If he
couldn't get a real job during those years, I don't think a me without
experience could have either.

My point, here, is that the business cycle has a huge effect on how easy it is
to find employment. It is /essential/ to take advantage of the good times in
the business cycle to build experience you can use to get jobs during the bad
times.

------
mcintyre1994
If what he claims is true, that's hugely impressive, and in terms of how
successful he will be, it doesn't matter if he stays in school or not. If he's
done that by 15, he's probably not going to learn anything that will change
his mind unless and until he goes to University.

School isn't going to help him make more of himself than he has, all it will
effect is his current business. With respect to his parents and school, it
would be unfair, in my opinion, to stop him doing what it takes to make that
an even bigger success.

His letter is inaccurate in saying education gives you nothing, I'm 18 and
would disagree profusely. I've studied Computer Science for a few months after
being suckered into a short lived technology business, and it's changed a lot
about how I think.

However, he does come across in some respects as a smart business guy - where
he discusses Minecraft hosting as a fad and tells of his longer term ambitions
for that company - that's a business guy whose already made up his mind.

------
alex_g
I think he wrote a very good letter explaining his situation and that
understands the rewards/consequences. If he feels 100% comfortable with
dropping out, and is ok with not going to college to have fun, learn things
that would actually interest him, and make more connections, then by all
means, it would be a better choice to drop out.

~~~
rayiner
Dropping out isn't going to impact his ability to go to college. Colleges know
that 99% of American high school education is crap, and don't care at all
whether you complete it or just get the certification via the GED route.

~~~
runawaybottle
Exactly, this seems like a no brainer. If things turn bad, he can just grab
his GED, go to community college for a year or two and transfer over to a
regular college. Most of his peers that will finish HS and go to college
probably will never have similar opportunities even with a degree. This kid's
parents need to yank him asap from school, and work out some kind of home-
schooling situation in the interim.

------
betterunix
Dropping out is only acceptable if a student has a realistic plan for what to
do afterwards. A drop-out who has no plan of action is a worthless bum.

If this kid has a plan -- say, to get a GED, go to a trade school, and secure
a decent salary, then it may not be so bad. Equally viable is if the kid has
an apprenticeship lined up, with the promise of a career afterwards. On the
other hand, "I am bored with school so can't I just play Halo until I can find
work as a janitor" is a useless plan that will lead to a miserable life.

Nothing is black-and-white. As Sun Tzu said,

"The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing
disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for
his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom."

------
toothlesstiger
Every kid has got their own needs. I'm watching one adolescent melt down under
the peer pressure for performance. As a parent, it's my job to make sure my
child is able to survive and thrive when I'm not around. The standard route is
high-school and college, but not every person is suited for that straight
path.

If he drops out, and gets a GED, it may not be the same straight path, but
college is still there, and someone who has worked and taken care of
themselves for a bit has a very different take on a college education when
they perceive it as something they want and need, rather than something they
are supposed to do. When he decides to go to college, it certainly won't be a
four-year beery haze.

------
gte910h
I think the kid probably should transfer to a public school instead.

The workload is probably considerably lighter there, and he should be able to
get a diploma while keeping his concern ongoing.

The business is making an OKAY income, but nothing gangbusters, even for the
middle of nowhere.

------
RORVI
If he knows what he's doing,i think it's better to let him do as he sees fit.
After all it's his life and he will live it the way he wants. As for learning
computer science,he already said he has a hosting business,so he may be able
to learn computer science at work,by doing it (which is the best way !!!). I
think his parents should support him, mainly because he is creating his own
job, and if he fails it will be a valuable lesson for him, and then maybe
he'll get back to school,but until then ,i think he's right when he chooses
his company over highschool . If he's wrong, he'll learn from his mistake and
move on...

------
mindcrime
Honestly, if he's accomplished what he claims to have, and he manages to get
his GED (which will be enough to qualify him to continue his education later
in college if he chooses), then I would't be that opposed to letting him go
ahead and drop out.

I'd push for at least getting the GED though... that way, worst case, if his
business ambitions don't pan out, he can always go back to college (starting
at a community college if he has to, since they are often guaranteed
admittance, if you have a HS diploma or GED).

------
jelkimantis
The grammar and sentence structure of this letter indicate to me that this
student could greatly benefit fm a little bit of humility. Sure the student is
smart. Sure the student is wasting some time at school. I don't think this is
entirely the school's fault. If the student had paid a little more attention,
I would assume he would be able to construct more intelligible sentences.

------
jonaphin
Seems like school has had an influence on his grammar that numerous college
graduates should envy.

Having been educated in France and lived my adult life in the US I can say the
US education system has an advantage that other countries' may not have:

\- In the US, one has the opportunity to get a college education at any age.

------
lucymarker
I think that college degrees are highly over-rated.. all you basically need in
this world is the ability to read, a curious mind, the will to work and a good
set of books, a laptop and internet connection. A perfect combo of this,
anyone can take over the world.. be the next Aaron Swartz.

------
tb0n3
Dodging the question of "should he" ... I finished up a few high school
credits by correspondence course (pre web) while working and still graduated
from my actual high school. I could go as far as I wanted. There have to be
online options available that he could work on at his own pace.

------
cardine
I was profiting $1k/day in high school and still managed to finish (and do a
good about job to get into a couple top tier universities). I had similar
thoughts in high school and understand the predicament, but I know I
absolutely made the right decision to stay in school.

------
devonbarrett
Hello,

I myself recently went through this decision process (although the company I
had started at 15 was different) the situation was the same, and if you would
like to discuss anything feel free to email me at devon[at]{hnusername}.net

~~~
shawndumas
thank you for putting yourself out there like that, very cool of you.

------
recuter
To quote the BBC's Sherlock: "I am _not_ the commonwealth!"

Set him free.

~~~
shawndumas
No, I can't help thinking that what they're doing to him is a lot like a sort
of prison ; so your comment does really resonate with me.

------
qzxt
for what i's worth, i think this is not a problem at all, speaking from the
point of view of a parent. as a society we have put school at the level of a
deity; something we don't question, just do. back in the day, a good, god-
fearing man went to church on sunday. do you live a virtuous life? yes. do you
pray everyday? morning and night. do you practice the teachings of the bible?
without failure. but all of this didn't matter if you didn't go to church on
sundays with everyone else. why? is church not about communicating with your
lord? is it not about hearing the word of god and assimilating it? is it not
about praising his holy name? yes to all of this. but somehow, the act of
going to church overshadowed the point of going to church. much in the same
way, the point of school - to be educated - has been overshadowed by the act
of going to school. we just dump our kids there because we're expected to. we
are somehow convinced that the only way for them to get a good education is to
sit in a building and read books so they can come back with a good grade and
"make us proud." we don't question it. we don't ask what exactly this
"education" is and why is school the best place to get it?

personally speaking i think this is a kid who has found something he would
like to do and is rather good at it. without being too long winded, i think it
would be best you spoke to his parents about instilling the virtue of being
educated in him rather than coercing him to go to school for the sake of it.
the reality is, people graduate from school and forget almost everything. but
just because they have the credentials, we are somehow supposed to say they're
educated. this has been true in my professional life, and not to demean anyone
i know, but also in my personal life. education follows you your entire life.
it never stops. school ends after four years, and college after another four.
at the end of it you would have been no more enlightened about the world
around you as you scramble through the transition to "adulthood" - read:
getting a job and abandoning the principles that plato and cicero should have
taught you, in the interest of moving on up - and if for nothing else, in most
cases all that enlightenment is not enlightenment that can only be received
via the blessing of the high priest of harvard. i think that should be the
important thing to teach any kid, but especially this kid, and when that is
learned, school becomes a mere option, rather than the necessity we all
portray it to be.

for a personal background, i'm 26, now, and i actually graduated high school
when i was about his age, so i understand his perspective. it was dull. i
earned the best grades, but i won't deceive myself into saying i actually
<i>learned</i> anything. in fact i saw school like everyone else saw school, a
collection of classes that were nothing more than classes. i was so terrible
and disdainful of maths and sciences that i consoled myself with the idea that
they weren't important. after all, i was learning government, economics,
sociology; stuff about the "real world." i could quote marx, engels, keynes,
and friedman, word for word. i could tell you the difference between
totalitarianism and authoritarianism. i could write long essays about the
historical context of pride and prejudice. but i never understood any of it. i
simply knew them, so i could pass classes very easily because tests were
basically "tell me what you read in the book." it wasn't until i graduated
that i came across the local public library. i picked up a random book on math
and it hit me in the face like a truck. all of a sudden it all had meaning. it
wasn't just a bunch of numbers that magically produce other numbers. history
wasn't just a bunch of white guys killing themselves. jefferson wasn't just a
hypocritical bastard who owned slaves. gradually i stopped seeing education as
this prescribed list of books i should read and things i should say. it was
all around me all this time. and once you know one thing, you simply want to
know more. i'm sorry if it sounds a bit fruity, but it's true. and i thank my
mother for not only being supportive in not forcing me to go to college to do
the whole child prodigy thing, but also in reconsidering her former idea of
education, which was in line with the mainstream view, and coming along with
me in the educational journey. it made the world of difference being able to
discuss philosophy, in earnest with someone else, rather than have it
conferred down to me by some high priest. so you would imagine, it's a bit
irritating to hear people talk as if school was this holy arbiter of
education. with regards to this kid's parents, my personal opinion would be to
engage them in discussion of what exactly education is and focus more on
instilling the virtue of education and knowledge in him. present things as
they are, life, rather than a series of facts that they have to learn in a
building and it won't matter whether or not he was educated in a building,
called school, or if he was educated in his fracking car. especially as he's
15 now, support and guidance are the best things his parents can give him.
support through his business endeavors and educational endeavors and guidance
for when he may seem to be going astray - which, statistically, he will :).
and they can't effectively do that if they aren't clear on what exactly their
son should get from an education, or even what it is. of course it will be
tough, straying away from the traditional route. there is no manual, there are
no prescribed books. probably everyone they know went to school and has kids
who are going to school. but sometimes the road less travelled is the one that
makes all the difference. i wish all parties involved good luck regardless of
which road they choose

------
maeon3
The only way I would authorize a highschool dropout is if the kid is ALREADY
wildly successful, achieving more than 99% of all humans aged 15 to 25 years
old. Only in this circumstance would dropping out to pursue these goals be
preferable to getting the paper that verifies your education.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the majority of very successful tech
startup founders did finish college and have some life experience. E.g. Elon
Musk is a prime example - he got degrees in both Economics and Physics before
going on to found Zip2, X.com (precursor to PayPal), SpaceX and Tesla Motors.

He runs the risk of burning out like an over amped/volted light bulb, and
winding up in the bread line, without a high school education. He just entered
the house of pain, unless his parents are very wealthy and can support him the
rest of his life, do not drop out.

If he is not a US Citizen, not having a high school diploma will hurt him.

You're most likely going to be working for the rest of your waking life, five
days a week, with minor breaks for vacations. Enjoy school/college while it
lasts, make the most of it; there's no rush to get into work because once you
get in, unless you strike it rich, there is NO getting out. Only if his
prospects for striking it rich are REAL and attainable and in-the-bag, do not
drop out.

The highschool/college education combo will benefit you far longer than most
companies (no matter how wildly successful they are) will be around. The world
is full of snakes and evil people. His performance in getting things done may
be eclipsed by someone eating him for lunch, in which case an education in
common sense would save him a lifetime of pain.

------
edwardunknown
If he's getting a GED I don't see a problem. I don't really know what
Minecraft is or if it's going to be around for long but if he's really making
$350,000 I'd tell him to strike while the iron is hot and get out of there.

If he's not going to actually go to college he should set up shop on a college
campus so he can use the library, etc and make some connections.

