
Craigslist Is Ugly, Janky, Old School, and Unbeatable - mirandak4
https://backchannel.com/craigslist-is-ugly-janky-old-school-and-unbeatable-85206829cb90#.ui9k4ktkl
======
20years
Am I the only one who doesn't think Craigslist is "Ugly or Janky"? It's one of
the only places left on the web where I can go and not be bombarded by ads,
pop ups, crazy amount of JavaScript and slow loading. It just works and is
intuitive to use. The only major thing I feel is missing is the ability to
search through multiple locations at the same time.

~~~
aantix
But if they just wrote an SPA and overrode the back button behavior and
displayed a little spinner icon while html was loaded via json, your
experience would be so much better.

~~~
brilliantcode
Founder: The paradigm has shifted. 5kb HTML pages are no longer disruptive
enough, we need more javascript for a-

VC: Shut up and light this bag of cash on fire. Focus on number of non-paying
users and make sure it's big enough so I can introduce you to more people with
bigger pile of cash to light on fire.

Craigslist Post: We are hiring front-end React.js developers with 10+ year
experience.

~~~
WWLink
HR: We hire the best of the best! Are you a passionate code ninja that lives
and breathes code?! Show us your github and bitbucket profiles and enter the
Craigslist Hackathon today! We promise we'll consider you.. and then go whine
on HN about how hard it is to find a truly qualified candidate.

~~~
brilliantcode
HR: Oh we are sorry but it seems like you aren't having enough "fun" by
committing your waking hours contributing to open source projects for
absolutely no financial compensation. We want people who love coding so much
they do it after work and on the weekends. We are willing to pay below market
average for said rock stars.

------
grapevines
Network effect, reliability, free, anonymous, ability to run without
JavaScript.

If Craigslist decided to modernize today, they could potentially disrupt the
state of things on the internet. Facebook is trying to move in on their
territory for sure. Unfortunately, I don't think they will. If a new-kid-on-
the-block could offer anonymity, reliability, and free regional market based
transactions, with preferably integration with Monero, it would be a killer
app for the crypto industry.

~~~
GoodbyeEarl
I'd really like to know how to deal with users input, forms and other stuff
without JS. Every tutorial we see today is like "throw tons of JS to this
problem and it shall work".

~~~
tsm
Vanilla forms just GET or POST to some server endpoint with all of the
<input>s passed in as query parameters. Frameworks (e.g., Rails) put some
syntactic sugar on it, but that's really all that's happening. If the form
submission contains invalid input, it's customary to return to the form page
(with all the values already filled out) and show a server-generated message
about what went wrong.

JS is absolutely not required for any of it.

~~~
dzonga
I would really want to know more about this too, built a simple site without
all that JS bloat

~~~
GoodbyeEarl
I'm thinking about push some code to github this afternoon using these
techniques with nodejs, if you want to I can send you a link to the repo ;)

------
codingdave
It isn't universal, though. One of the things you find if you move to Utah is,
"Don't bother with Craigslist." I mean, it exists here. It gets some use. But
most people use the online classifieds from ksl.com, the local TV station. At
least, I think it is a TV station. I've never watched it, but everyone uses
their online classifieds instead of craigslist. Their site also is ugly, and
full of difficult buyers and poor experiences. And somehow it beats craigslist
in Utah.

~~~
erik
Similarly, Kijiji actually found success in Canada, and has quite a bit more
traffic than Craigslist for most cities here.

~~~
emilecantin
In Quebec, Craigslist is virtually unknown (with maybe a little traffic in
Montreal, but I'm not sure), everyone used LesPAC first, and then Kijiji when
it came along. You needed to pay to post an ad on LesPAC, so it quickly lost
market share when a free competitor emerged.

Both of these have a French-language version, and I believe it had a lot to do
with CL's failure to get the market here.

------
vonklaus
I almost always fight the SV meme that largely founders focus on throwaway
trivial ideas. I just think this is so stupid. Craigslist is one of the few
companies that isnt greedy, is community driven, and if there are examples
using there outsize market to kill competitirs or act nefarious-- I havent
heard them.

I did 3 craigslist deals in the past 2 days. Got coffee with a stranger at 2am
who let me flash an os to a drive he sold me for cheap..at 2am.

Craigslist is the email of startups. It works well enough, its a cockroach,
and other substitute & complimentary companies fill its gaps. Ebay, etsy,
amazon, tradesy, ect.

This isnt even a problem. I have done hundreds of deals and havent had a bad
experience. Have others; Absolutely. Do I think its common, not in my
experience. I suspect the percentage is low, but I dont have data.

Craigslist is what ai would like to see other companies model after,
simplicity, community and no greed.

I may be alone, but i find this absurd and destined to fail. Is it profitable?
Probably, but show me that balance sheet. Probably founders not oaying
themselves, a tiny server and an apartment. I dont want to belittle the
founders, they must have had a terrible experience, but this doesnt seem like
a profitable or good strategy at all

~~~
maxxxxx
Are you saying Craigslist is a tiny server in an apartment?

~~~
vonklaus
I am saying the profitabls challenger is just a server probably hosted nearly
free on AWS or Azure through sponsorships. Being profitable is great and I
applaud that, but my point is what is the magnitude of success? This likely is
a lifestyle business and it is disingenuous to say it is a CL competitor.

------
smallgovt
I find it interesting that there's a general undertone that CL is being
"honorable" by choosing to not make more profit.

I have no doubt Craig's intentions were honorable, but in reality, his refusal
to make money to fund the site's innovation is hurting society. His users are
screaming "TAKE MY MONEY AND MAKE THE SITE (MY LIFE) BETTER", but he refuses
to do so and everyone is worse off because of it!

In a way, it's lazy and selfish, and nobody can do anything about it
because..network effects.

When money exchanges hands, generally, value is being delivered. He refuses
money which, in essence, equates to refusing to deliver value.

~~~
phil21
Now it's lazy and selfish to not take every ounce of surplus you can out of a
market?

Some folks just want to lay back and enjoy life. If I were Craig I'd sit on
that goldmine for the rest of my life - most likely it will finance a very
decent lifestyle until the day he dies.

Why bother with the stress of expanding and doing what everyone else is doing?
I'm completely convinced that strategy makes for miserable people. The
happiest folks I've met in my life are those who own the "lifestyle
businesses" everyone on HN enjoys deriding so much.

Isn't Craig living the hacker's dream? A reasonably useful service that
provides value to customer, that once built you don't have to put much effort
into maintaining or improving - because it works. Then you spend the rest of
your free time on the beach.

You also get the nice side benefit that most guys like this tend to provide
relatively low-stress long-term jobs employees can build a balanced life
around.

~~~
bredren
The problem is not that CL isn't squeezing out every ounce revenue.

The problem with the benevolent dictator at Craigslist is his kingdom is so
big and he does nothing to advance it.

It would not be hard to offer minor but relatively simple identity validation
for users. Or dabble with the ability to create trust networks or reputation.
Or offer basic mechanisms for safe transactional payments. Or an official
mobile app that worked well. Or a hundred other things that would improve
lives.

There is no question craigslist gets a "job well done" but there is a great
argument that if they have a choke hold on the online classifieds market they
should offer increased value over time.

Craigslist reminds me of the IRS. Sure, you can fumble your way through filing
your taxes with us, but why would you do that when TurboTax can do it better.
Except there is no alternative.

I think Craigslist is acting more like the old newspaper classifieds they
disrupted if anything.

Despite this article's focus on a couple companies, there are other startups
getting major traction in used goods space apart from Facebook.

If CL loses significant market share, I hope they don't go trying then to
revamp the site. Because it would only be that much more obvious how much they
held back from their users for so long.

~~~
fnovd
>It would not be hard to offer minor but relatively simple identity validation
for users. Or dabble with the ability to create trust networks or reputation.
Or offer basic mechanisms for safe transactional payments.

And when users are lulled into a false sense of security from these changes,
who is all of a sudden liable when things go south? CL being barebones is a
feature, not a bug.

------
csharpminor
I actually think that Craigslist will come to see tough competition from
Facebook Marketplace.

Facebook has the existing user base to get a network effect, has a much better
UI, notifications, and solves for the worry of meeting someone who is a
complete unknown.

Will be interesting to see if Facebook chips away at the Craigslist user-base
over the next few years.

~~~
1_2__3
I'm skeptical FB will make inroads here. One of the bedrocks of FB, positive
or negative, is that it connects together people who already know each other
in some way. Craigslist is the polar opposite of that.

~~~
csharpminor
I don't think that argument it applicable to Facebook Marketplace. It allows
you to see anything for sale in your region, not by friend circles. You may be
thinking of Facebook groups that are used to buy and sell items?

------
rodionos
Do they publish any usage statistics, other than the summary?

    
    
      More than 60 million each month in the US alone
    

[https://www.craigslist.org/about/factsheet](https://www.craigslist.org/about/factsheet)

------
lossolo
When I saw HN first time i thought the same about it (without janky).
Sometimes it's all about the content and user base, look at 4chan also.

~~~
nerdponx
Related thread from the other day:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13638172](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13638172)

------
dlwj
There's an interesting series of tweets here: [http://us1.campaign-
archive1.com/?u=78cbbb7f2882629a5157fa59...](http://us1.campaign-
archive1.com/?u=78cbbb7f2882629a5157fa593&id=d6081dc3f9)

It outlines a model of "supernova" companies. Companies that initially earmark
such a large market that they implode, creating the materials for many other
companies. AirBnB for example is just a small chunk of craigslist. Twitter may
be in the process of exploding, being unable to capture or tame the reaction.

~~~
adventured
Disappointing article. This for example:

> Twitter "failing" to own the revolutions it obviously took mainstream
> (messaging, chatbots) isn't a failure really if viewed that way

Twitter in no way made messaging mainstream. It had absolutely nothing to do
with it. Twitter's peer to peer messaging system being so horrific is one of
the reasons it failed (WhatsApp, Snapchat, etc. took advantage of that screw-
up). ICQ, AOL, MSN messengers, MySpace and Facebook, all did drastically more
to take messaging concepts mainstream (the messengers had hundreds of millions
of users before Twitter even existed). Twitter was late to the party and
showed up with the wrong solution.

------
dvcrn
In Japan Craigslist exists but isn't nearly as popular. A lot of companies
tried to replicate the Craigslist effect but interestingly with little success

But lately you have new players like mercari and frill with tons of funding
behind them and a pretty app that somehow attracted users like crazy, but they
all charge a 10% fee if your stuff gets sold. If I sell my MacBook for 2000
dollars that's a significant sum.

I love Craigslist for what it is and hope they will stick around longer

------
squozzer
I think people miss the bigger picture. CL is the classified section, only
1000x easier to use, both buying and selling.

Generally the stuff sold has a low, but non-zero, payoff / hassle ratio (e.g.
furniture), but most of its charm has to do with its rough edges (flaky users,
tag spam), which adds a little sense of adventure.

One of my friends whom I would characterize as a semi-pro CL user says some of
his best deals came from stuff the seller hadn't listed on CL.

------
Mankhool
I was looking at apartments in Vancouver, BC recently and was happy to see a
Map View for searching now. With $381 Million in revenue in 2015 and about
$300 Million profit it isn't going away.

------
anonu
This [1] is a bit dated - maybe from 2014 - but still quite relevant to this
discussion. Some new entrants have made their way in like AptDeco - and some
have fallen off. Overall, there is still tons of opportunities to supplant
Craigslist piece-by-piece.

[1]
[http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/4dd4d1cf4bd7c8c90f0...](http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/4dd4d1cf4bd7c8c90f000000-960/craigslist%20andrew%20parker.png)

------
6stringmerc
Great in major metro cities where internet use and penetration are almost
taken for granted. I think the Dallas CL is just as lively as the SF one for
instance. However, in a city like San Antonio, which I kid about being "40
years in the past," it's barely worth even looking. Very drastic difference in
the community approaches. As in, the Dallas Music Instruments section might
get 4 pages a day in volume. San Antonio might do 4 pages a month.

------
VLM
Somehow this historical wikipedia quote about profits relationship to beauty
and trendiness smells appropriate:

"The Roman historian Suetonius reports that when Vespasian's son Titus
complained about the disgusting nature of the tax, his father held up a gold
coin and asked whether he felt offended by its smell (sciscitans num odore
offenderetur). When Titus said "No", Vespasian replied, "Yet it comes from
urine" (Atqui ex lotio est)."

~~~
DrScump
Background on this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecunia_non_olet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecunia_non_olet)

------
wazanator
The main problem Craigslist still has is that it does not have an official
mobile app which is actually why I started using a competitors service. It's a
lot easier on a phone to endlessly scroll through items via an app then it is
to go to the CL website. CL is fine when I'm sitting down in front of a
computer but if I'm on the bus I want to just be able to use my thumb to
quickly flip through.

~~~
DrScump
Who needs a mobile app, with its inherent privacy exposures, for content that
renders just fine on mobile browsers?

------
turc1656
This article was posted today, but I swear I saw something exactly like this
on HN a few months ago.

~~~
37
And I swear CL was ugly, janky, old school and unbeatable a decade ago.

------
copperx
Slightly tangential, but you can find a similar UI in the Ellucian's Banner
system used in some schools for course registration, payment, schedules, etc.
I think its simplicity is brilliant, but most users find it ugly and old
school.

------
zerr
But you still can't search remote jobs, or any jobs without specifying exact
town...

~~~
jasonkostempski
I don't get why you can't search for anything across the towns. If I'm looking
for something hard to find but is reasonably shippable, I might want to take
the risk of a trusting the seller or work out some escrow type thing.

~~~
tspike
They have taken the explicit view that Craigslist is a local service.
Providing cross-city functionality would undermine that view.

~~~
freehunter
I actually live between three of the cities listed in my area, they're all
about 20 miles from my house and part of the same metropolitan statistical
area. Being able to search LA and SF at the same time might be silly, but
being able to search two or three very close cities is not IMO.

------
partycoder
Craigslist is fast and gets to the point.

Back in the day, search engine home pages had a vast list of categories...
Google just had only a text field to input what you wanted to search for.
Google search won.

------
adrianlmm
So it is hacker news.

------
skadiddle33
Interesting. I imagine Craigslist must indeed be pretty popular—how many
people does it need to employ to do that little?

------
whack
Let's be honest, Craigslist is a horrible product and the only reason it's so
popular, is because of network effects. Never underestimate the power of
incumbency, and getting in on the ground floor of a rocket. The same thing can
also be said for half the monopoly-companies out there, and half the
politicians currently in office.

