
Notion for everyone - FireBeyond
https://www.notion.so/personal
======
pcx
I love using Notion, but I think the general discussion about it does not talk
enough about how it's flexibility is also a problem many times.

1\. Flexibility of blocks is a cognitive overhead for most folks in my team.
They would rather prefer more constrained and opinionated approaches like
Trello

2\. Notion is currently a jack of all trades and master of none. We have tried
to use it as a wiki, project tracker, issue tracker, CRM & spreadsheet. Though
it's good to have one tool that can do many things, we quickly reach limits of
what is possible automatically and have to spend a lot of time to manually
maintain it

3\. Convention over configuration creates problems for other team members to
follow because conventions are not documented properly.

But I see a lot of potential of it becoming a platform. If they can
incentivize 3rd parties to build over their platform and build trust, I think
it's gonna be the next big thing. "One platform for all my data" with
specialized tools to deal with different kinds of data. I can imagine tools
like Tello, Jira, Hubspot, Google spreadsheets & draw.io running over it.

~~~
jdhornby
I’ve had a similar experience with Notion. “Jack of all trades and master of
none” resonates strongly with me.

This lead me to my latest startup
[https://froosthq.com/](https://froosthq.com/) which is Notion inspired and
aimed solely at software teams.

~~~
omnimus
Funnily enough originaly the saying was "A jack of all trades is a master of
none, but oftentimes better than a master of one." Seems like it got pretty
skewed over time.

~~~
discreteevent
Specialization is for insects.

[https://wiki.c2.com/?SpecializationIsForInsects](https://wiki.c2.com/?SpecializationIsForInsects)

~~~
michaelcampbell
And also what allowed civilisation to exist.

------
ericax
Notion is great, I used to want to build my knowledge base in it, but figured
it's not future-proof enough for my needs.

And that's part of the reason we went on to build Obsidian
([https://obsidian.md/](https://obsidian.md/)), the local-first knowledge base
app. Everything is in plain text Markdown.

Screenshot: [https://i.imgur.com/zof4zCj.png](https://i.imgur.com/zof4zCj.png)

Just released 0.6.0 and here's a video for anyone interested:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAkJMHg-
dGw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAkJMHg-dGw)

The private beta community has built cool stuff already:
[https://github.com/kmaasrud/awesome-
obsidian](https://github.com/kmaasrud/awesome-obsidian)

In private beta right now, looking to launch soon.

~~~
jonpurdy
I like the idea of Notion, but one of things keeping me is that it seems like
it'd be a pain to export one's data if Notion ever went out of business.

But just keeping folders of Markdown notes is also inflexible, but on the
opposite side of the scale.

Obsidian looks like a great balance! I've requested beta access as well.

Edit: Obsidian seems to make it easy to create a Zettelkasten, sort of like
[https://github.com/alefore/weblog/blob/master/zettelkasten.m...](https://github.com/alefore/weblog/blob/master/zettelkasten.md)
but with automation baked in.

~~~
maett
I switched from OneNote to Notion a while a go, one major reason being the
possibility to easily export notes in Markdown format. I think it's working
pretty well, or am I overlooking something?

~~~
Kye
Notion's export used to dump it all in one opaque blob of files with no
structure aside from some CSV files that roughly described where things went.
Maybe they haven't used it since Notion changed it to use folders.

------
avolcano
This is kinda weird, because I was happily giving them $4/month after running
out of space in their trial plan, and now I absolutely have no reason to keep
giving them money.

Which, sure, I guess I'll take it. My $4/month isn't going to make or break
their business and they probably barely give a shit about getting money for
personal usage. Does remind me that my usage of their app doesn't align with
their business model, which makes it feel rather... tenuous? Like at any time
they might say "actually we're going to only support paid enterprise usage
now" or "oh we're shutting down because companies just used Confluence and
Airtable instead" (I have yet to sell any employer on using Notion because
it's too unstructured for them to grok the benefits of :\\).

~~~
intopieces
Are there any open source Notion alternatives? This is the main benefit of
open source software, in my mind: no one can "take" it from you because it
doesn't belong to "them" in the same way that a product does.

~~~
madballster
emacs + orgmode

------
Yabood
I mentioned this before. Notion is great, but the fact that they use fullstory
(session recording) for a note taking app is a huge problem for me. We’re
talking about potentially sensitive data being available to notion and perhaps
fullstory employees for the sake of improving UX. I especially dislike the
fact that they don’t disclose session recording upfront. I found out by
inspecting their app webpage.

Sure there’s a way to opt out of fullstory in general, but that’s not very
reliable.

I should mention that we use fullstory for our saas product and quite happy
with it. However, our implementation makes it possible to opt out upfront
during registration and or change your session recording settings from within
our app. We don’t rely on fullstory or bs workarounds, we simply don’t load
fullstory when you opt out.

~~~
jamiequint
Hi Yabood, we actually don't use Fullstory anymore due to privacy concerns. We
removed it 6-9 months ago from all platforms. If you're still seeing this
somewhere please let me know so we can address it.

~~~
ciarannolan
Does Notion have access to the content of my notes if they're compelled to
produce them?

Do employees have access to the content of my notes?

~~~
jamiequint
Notion employees are only allowed to access your workspace data with your
written consent. We are also only allowed to do this in order to facilitate an
improved user experience for you (e.g. debug problems you have asked support
about, etc).

We are working on updating our T&C and Privacy Policy to make this more clear,
but it is rigorously practiced internally already.

We do not yet have end-to-end encryption, or other encryption functionality
that would make it technically impossible to access your data. We would love
to do this at some point but it will be difficult because our permission model
is quite complex!

~~~
ciarannolan
Thanks for the reply, Jamie, much appreciated.

I would definitely pay for an E2E encrypted Notion.

~~~
marcus_holmes
I'm curious. Why the need for E2E?

~~~
ciarannolan
I tend to use these platforms to organize my personal life and thoughts.
Sharing that information in any way with a for-profit company is a non-starter
for me. "Trust us, we care about your privacy" isn't good enough for me.

~~~
foob4r
I would recommend looking at Standard Notes. It's paid only but it's so worth
it.

------
franky47
The one thing that bothers me about Notion (and Slack and other "everything in
one place" tools), is the lack of encryption. I might have FAANGophobia, but
whenever there is a free tier without a form of end-to-end encryption in
place, it feels like a data puddle waiting to become a lake.

That being said, having clear-text data would allow features like an API on
publicly shared pages/blocks, to use Notion as a CMS. I have seen some
attempts [1] at reverse-engineering their internal API, but an official one on
a paid plan could be a nice addition.

[1] [https://github.com/splitbee/notion-api-
worker](https://github.com/splitbee/notion-api-worker)

~~~
_fzslm
this is the only thing that stops me from using Notion, too. just downloaded
it and it looks like it would change my life... except i don't own the data.

right now i'm trying out Outline [1] which has an option for self hosting.

[1] [https://github.com/outline/outline](https://github.com/outline/outline)

~~~
abuehrle
I just checked out Outline. It seems strange that the landing page example is
lifted straight from Stripe's docs[1] with "Stripe" replaced by "Acme".

[1] [https://stripe.com/docs/webhooks#what-are-
webhooks](https://stripe.com/docs/webhooks#what-are-webhooks)

~~~
ezekg
I can tell you that a large majority of in-production API docs use Stripe's
docs as a template. I did it for my company, and I've seen a ton of other API
services do it. Stripe leads in API docs, so it's easier to not reinvent the
wheel and just do what works. I know this instance isn't even for a production
product, but meh.

------
ESTheComposer
I’m not sure what it is, but I feel like HN seems to pick apart everything
that’s posted in a negative light. Honestly I discovered Notion a few years
back and used it for a while, but stopped using it when I couldn’t sync it
with my teams project management software. Fast forward a few years and my SO
and I were at a restaurant sitting next to a guy who’s one of the early
engineers in the company, and that sparked my interest again. Since then, I’ve
been using Notion to replace Google Docs and Trello, and it’s been fantastic

~~~
vagab0nd
Thanks. I'm going to give it a try. I currently use Trello to track my
personal stuff. How does Notion compare?

~~~
ESTheComposer
I personally like the UX more, and it’s just a smoother experience for me than
trello. Also what’s cool is we’ve divided up the Kanban boards so they’re
separated by team, but they merge into a master board so we can see how
everyone is doing at a glance. I also use it for tech designs writing
documentation so, I need more than trello by default

------
erkanerol
Note-taking is very similar to blogging. Many people lose so much time while
searching for the best app instead of taking notes. If you want to develop a
proper note-taking habit, just start writing into somewhere. md files,
evernote, notion, etc. after a while, you will know your needs and you will be
able to pick one of them easily. I have been using
[https://www.zoho.com/notebook/](https://www.zoho.com/notebook/) for a while
and I am happy with it. Since my needs are extremely simple: bullets, tags,
groups, mobile app, macOS apps.

------
lilyball
Notion is great. My one complaint is the fact that there's no "family plan". I
currently have a free workspace that I share with my spouse, but we're about
to hit the 1000 block limit. Notion CS's recommendation was for me to use a
personal plan and invite them to each page we want to share, or to create a
top-level page that all of the shared pages are nested under and invite them
to the top-level page alone, but this is very annoying. But I don't want to
pay $16/mo just for 2 members who don't need advanced team features.

~~~
cristinacordova
(Notion here) We agree! The new personal plan enables you to have unlimited
pages & blocks and share with up to 5 guests for free.
[https://www.notion.so/pricing](https://www.notion.so/pricing)

~~~
lilyball
Guests have to be invited to individual pages though, right? So this means I
still need to either invite my spouse to every single shared page (which is
problematic if my spouse wants to create a new top-level shared page in my
workspace), or nest all the shared stuff under a single top-level page which
is annoying (and hurts navigation on mobile).

------
atoav
I've tried so many note/todo/productivity apps throughout the years and I
always find myself coming back to one simple solution:

\- keep your daily todo stuff on a sheet of paper in front of you, transfer
the stuff from yesterday onto a fresh sheet before starting to work

\- keep project specific tasks close to the project. If the project is
physical stick a note onto it, if it is git managed code open a issue or add a
todo inline, or add a todo.md in the project folder. Only put a vague line on
your daily todo sheet: "work on project x" all the detailed stuff should be in
the project

\- if you have calls, meetings etc, just add them to your calendar with a
reminder, no need to have them on the todo list

~~~
jyriand
Same here. No productivity app will win me back the time I have spent looking
for them.

------
rajekas
I'm sad that so many of the top comments here are Notion skeptical. I have
loved Notion from the very beginning and used it as a personal repository for
a long time.

More recently, we used Notion - where 'we' = a group of professional
volunteers; professional in that everyone had skills to contribute and
volunteer in that no one is being paid for those contributions - to create a
Citizen-to-Citizen long term support platform for those impacted adversely by
the COVID19 epidemic. In India in case you're wondering.

The challenges are many:

1\. Make it clear that we see ourselves not as a charity but as a citizen to
citizen support network - today it could be that person, but tomorrow it could
be you. We have to design around the dignity of the recipient and the donor.

2\. We need to identify potential beneficiaries whose needs are verifiable.
Which means involving organizations that work with migrant laborers at scale
(to take a key demographic) and can verify and on-board those potential
beneficiaries.

3\. We need to pull together the back-end and front-end technology to make
donations without intermediaries, i.e., there's no middleman receiving and
storing the money - it's a direct transfer from one individuals account to
another individual's account. No administrative fees and with any luck we
could even see if the credit card fees can be waived.

4\. Compelling and easy to grasp design that inspires trust in potential
donors and even more importantly, builds solidarity between the donor and the
recipient. We are all in this together, aren't we?

5\. A communications strategy that brings in donors and creates a democratic
narrative around donations.

Each one of these needs several individuals and sometimes several
organizations to collaborate and agree upon a course of action. Notion helped
us do that layer by layer, with the top level principles leading naturally to
more technical decisions and an easy way to share content with non-technical
but nevertheless insightful leaders in organizations that are providing
essential services.

We first tried doing it with a combination of Google docs, Github repositories
and other pieces of chewing gum and string, but once we shifted to Notion we
never looked back. So much so that the next project this group is attempting
is Notion native.

~~~
alpacaillama
Hey i am originally from india and what you said resonated with me especially
related to the issues faced by migrants. Any way I can contribute to your
project?

Thanks.

~~~
rajekas
Thank you for your generous offer of help. We don't need additional support at
this time but I will keep you in mind if new needs come up. Thanks once again.

------
jackson1442
This changes a lot for me. I like Notion's interface, as well as the
functionality included. It _feels_ like a desktop app, which Google Docs
simply can't compete with (they're also Google products, do with that what you
will). The "blocks" limit always felt arbitrary on Free, so I never really got
into it, but now that I can use this like I would normally use a note-taking
app, I can see it being very valuable.

edit: apparently there's also a free upgrade to Personal Pro for EDU users, I
wonder if that's been around for a while.

~~~
kyawzazaw
free for edu users since Sep 2019.

~~~
andreasley
Accredited college or university only (e.g. no elementary or high schools).
Also currently no discount for team plans.

~~~
sdan
If you ask, they'll give you access if you have a HS email... at least thats
what I did sometime last year.

------
threatofrain
I know it's a niche need but any note-taking app I use needs to support Latex
and code highlighting. Unfortunately, once I throw this criteria in just about
every app gets excluded, but at least VSC + sync is still very nice.

~~~
fastball
Supernotes[1] has been called "a smaller, faster notion" and supports LaTeX
(both inline and block, notion only does block) and code highlighting.

Disclaimer: I built it.

1: [https://supernotes.app](https://supernotes.app)

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
... You have a cookie pop-up that says, "Can we use cookies?" but the only
option is a "Yes" button. If you're not giving people a choice, why even
pretend?

~~~
fastball
Tracking scripts / cookies are only loaded if you click "Yes", otherwise they
are not loaded at all.

~~~
GordonS
But if you don't tap "yes" there is no way to dismiss it. Not a fan of this
behaviour, and won't be looking any further.

~~~
sergiotapia
This is top-tier HN material right here folks.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
If you use dark patterns on your front page, why would I ever trust your app?

~~~
fastball
How do you see this as a "dark pattern"? I see it as more of a reasonable
compromise. If you visit my site, I think it's reasonable for me to understand
how you're using it. If you don't want to participate in that, you are given a
choice. That choice is between being tracked and having a mildly distracting
banner at the bottom of a landing page. This doesn't seem like a betrayal of
trust in any way. The implicit trust here is that you will not be tracked
unless you agree to be tracked. This is in fact the case.

Of course, on the one hand we _do_ want you to opt in to tracking. This _is_ a
marketing site, after all. If you're actually interested in the product,
tracking helps us understand who is interested and why, which in turn allows
us to improve the product and reach more potential users. If you're not
interested in the product, you don't need to click yes and there is no problem
– because presumably you won't be spending very much time on the landing page
for a product you're not interested in.

I think a landing page like this one is slightly different from, say, a big
cookie banner on a news website, as the intent is not really for you to be
spending a lot of time reading content on this site.

~~~
rockostrich
It's a UX dark pattern because (besides deleting the html element) there's no
way to dismiss a call to action, you can only ignore it.

~~~
anchpop
Just because it's annoying doesn't mean it's a dark pattern in the typical
sense of the word. Here's darkpatterns.org's definition:

> Dark Patterns are tricks used in websites and apps that make you do things
> that you didn't mean to, like buying or signing up for something.

And here is the one used by the verge [0]:

> A dark pattern is a user interface carefully crafted to trick users into
> doing things they might not otherwise do, such as buying insurance with
> their purchase or signing up for recurring bills

Here there's no trickery and no chance that a user would unintentionally agree
to cookies when they didn't mean to. It's just a little annoying thing that
bugs you until you do what they want. It's not unethical, but if you don't
like it you shouldn't use their site.

[0]: [https://www.theverge.com/2013/8/29/4640308/dark-patterns-
ins...](https://www.theverge.com/2013/8/29/4640308/dark-patterns-inside-the-
interfaces-designed-to-trick-you)

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
> Just because it's annoying doesn't mean it's a dark pattern in the typical
> sense of the word.

I'm happy to include multiple forms of coercion; the pattern here is the
ratchet: [https://jacquesmattheij.com/dark-patterns-the-
ratchet/](https://jacquesmattheij.com/dark-patterns-the-ratchet/)

> It's just a little annoying thing that bugs you until you do what they want.

That's a nice summary of a class of dark patterns, yes.

> It's not unethical, but if you don't like it you shouldn't use their site.

It absolutely is unethical, and yes as I said above I will consider this a
good reason to avoid the app.

~~~
fastball
What exactly is your definition of ethical? Because a little box at the bottom
of a webpage that just sits there does not really cross the unethical line for
me.

For me, this is only a dark pattern if the cookie banner makes the site
unusable (as many sites do) until you click "Yes". Ours clearly does not.

Regardless, the initial accusation was:

> If you're not giving people a choice, why even pretend?

Which is clearly not true. There is a very real choice – we are not
pretending. Your choice matters.

~~~
dyarosla
So why not allow disabling of the box?

~~~
fastball
Because we do actually want you to click "yes", so that we can understand how
you're using the site. Annoying? Absolutely. Unethical? I don't think so.

However, since a lot of people are not a fan of our banner, we've decided to
add an explicit "no" option. I still disagree that our original implementation
is a "dark pattern", as we very explicitly[1] will not sell your data, and
tracking for the sake of improving the product seems like a square deal to me.
But I understand that people are finding it annoying, so it's been changed.
Sorry about that.

[1] [https://supernotes.app/terms/](https://supernotes.app/terms/)

~~~
threatofrain
I trust people on HN to have the ethical relationship you envision, where
someone uses your service, steps into a place you pay for, and can be
generally expected to advance their own interests in a land of push and pull.

But for kids, older adults, and recent immigrants I feel this is borderline
confusing (the right way to say no is to ignore?) and manipulative, and I
would prefer more margin from the border.

The difficult conversation is to what degree do we expect rational agency from
different kinds of folks, how do we think about formal or business relations
with them, etc, but I don’t think the answer is “you shouldn’t let older moms
or kids into the web”.

------
dive
I tried the Notion twice. It looks good, works fine and has a reasonable
price. But. You cannot write notes in this application. Literally. You can
build tables, resize images, align lists in different shapes, have a dashboard
for all thousand cases you have with favourites photos as headers, filter
views with a million conditions, manage to-dos and project with kanban, ...,
but you cannot write simple notes. The interface will fight you,
mouse/trackpad are required in many cases, Enter key will produce different
unexpected results...

This is a good piece of software. But if you want to take simple linked notes,
then you probably need something else.

~~~
marvinblum
Hey there, we've thought about that too and came up with a new user interface
concept. Emvi [1] supports interlinked articles already and you can search
through your notes easily. But we found the current user interface to
inefficient for both, simple note taking and collaboration. You can read about
our new concept here: [https://emvi.com/blog/a-new-experimental-user-
interface-QMZg...](https://emvi.com/blog/a-new-experimental-user-interface-
QMZgmZG1L5)

It will come out in about three weeks and we're always curious about feedback
:)

[1] [https://emvi.com/](https://emvi.com/)

~~~
slightwinder
Is this a alternative frontend for notion? Or what do you mean?

From the look of it this seems like another poor implementation of the same
old tricks and concepts which everyone already know and uses.

~~~
marvinblum
No it's a new frontend for Emvi which focuses on keyboard controls and better
attention focus. What do you mean by the same old tricks? You'll find some
images and gifs in our Twitter profile:
[https://twitter.com/emvi](https://twitter.com/emvi)

~~~
slightwinder
It means there is nothing special about this, no innovation, nothing
outstanding. Just playing the same old tune which so many others are already
playing for a long long time.

------
lm2s
Notion consuming 10-15% CPU while on idle is a deal breaker to me. I wish
they'd devote a bit more resources to fix this.

(On macOS, don't know if this is the case on other OSes)

~~~
fabrika
On iPadOS it ignores pointer and external keyboard. Wish their apps were more
native to the platforms.

~~~
Cthulhu_
This is the downside of webapps, they have to reimplement all the UX that
native apps have builtin. In this case, Apple updated things like buttons and
text inputs in their native components, so any app using those didn't have to
do anything to make it work as expected.

------
scblzn
I tried it around November 2019, really liked Notion and the UI/UX of the
product for some note taking/personal knowledge base, however I had to contact
their security team through their support because TLS 1.0 was still enabled at
this time.

They say they are audited by NCC (
[https://www.notion.so/Security-6c56b4854b624b0d8f36711018647...](https://www.notion.so/Security-6c56b4854b624b0d8f36711018647f68#bd21b955eb45406ca6d1899cdf7538bb)
) but I don't know how NCC missed this. They disabled TLS 1.0 few days after
my message.

My second concern is that their .so domain is the TLD of Somalia (with all the
risks it brings in case of malicious takeover), and .so zone doesn't even
support DNSSEC, once again this is a big issue for me, especially for an app
that hosts "personal data" (I see they also make calls on a .com domain, but
the .so main domain issue still stands). Support told me they would change the
domain in the future but still didn't happened.

It's only my personal security stance/paranoia, but my 2 cents of what
happened with them.

~~~
tptacek
Virtually no mainstream platforms enable DNSSEC (what's the largest one you
can find? It won't be in the Moz 500); it's not as if there's a major
competitor to Notion you'll find that is DNSSEC-signed. DNSSEC is moribund.

What's ironic about this comment is that in our present WebPKI, Somalia's
ownership of .so only tangentially impacts their security (Somalia could in
theory seize the domain and DV-verify a new cert). But in a DNSSEC world,
Somalia would have _de jure_ control over both the domain _and Notion 's TLS
certificates_, which would chain through DANE from the same root.

------
haolez
I'm looking for something similar to Notion for my company's internal
documentation (including operations), but it needs to be internationalized
(and Notion isn't).

I've found out about Joplin[1] and thought it was the answer, but it seems
that I cannot easily share the notes with my team in a collaborative manner. A
pity! The quest continues.

[1][https://joplinapp.org/](https://joplinapp.org/)

~~~
marvinblum
What do you mean by internationalized? The user interface? I'm the co-founder
of Emvi [1]. We support English and German on the user interface and you can
add languages to your organization which allows your members to add
translations for that languages. So an article can be present in multiple
languages and use the one you chose as default as a fallback.

[1] [https://emvi.com/](https://emvi.com/)

~~~
haolez
Yes, user interface. I'll take a look at your app!

EDIT: Unfortunately, my company is heavily invested in Office 365 (Teams and
friends) and we use our Azure AD logins for everything. Emvi seems to
integrate Google credentials only. However, your product looks amazing! That's
exactly what I'm looking for. I'll be sure to keep an eye on it for when it
starts supporting Microsoft (i.e. Teams) logins or when (if) my company
migrates to Google in the future :)

~~~
marvinblum
Ah good. Well what language do you need then? As I said we support English and
German. The articles you write can be multilingual.

~~~
haolez
Portuguese Brazil, but my team would gladly translate it for you.

~~~
marvinblum
That would be incredible! It's actually not that much to translate I think.
Read my comment above and I might come back to you.

------
Eugeleo
Anybody using Notion for personal knowledge management (lecture notes,
literature notes, etc). Why do you find it oreferable to Roam, Obsidian or
some of the other new Zettelkasten approaches?

~~~
marvinblum
Some people need structure, which is absolutely fine. But I always wanted to
throw stuff into it and use the search to navigate. You can check out Emvi [1]
if you like, I'm on of the founders.

[1] [https://emvi.com/](https://emvi.com/)

------
habosa
Notion is just a fantastic piece of software and the team seems focused on
making it better and cheaper at the same time. They should be unequivocally
congratulated for this and I wish them more success.

Also if you ever change your mind on hiring outside of SF, call me :-)

------
andreilys
I had a really bad experience with Notion, used it for some time, hit some
arbitrary 1000 block limit that no matter what I deleted I couldn't get rid
of.

Now I rely on vimwiki and fzf. More robust and future-proof. Who knows how
long Notion will be around?

~~~
dtgay
I was using vimwiki for a while, but have since switched to notational-fzf-
vim[1], which is basically Notational Velocity for Vim, powered by fzf and
ripgrep. So far, it's exactly what I've been looking for.

Come to think of it, I don't see why you couldn't use both vimwiki and
notational-fzf-vim. That might be pretty good actually.

[1]: [https://github.com/alok/notational-fzf-
vim](https://github.com/alok/notational-fzf-vim)

------
nisuni
If they only had a native Mac application.

I love Notion, but the Mac client feels so sluggish, I didn’t investigative
but looks like a web view or Electron or something similar.

~~~
andreasley
Correct, it's Electron. And yes, I wish it were native, too.

------
awill
After Evernote started going downhill, I moved to plain markdown inside a
Google Drive folder. I use the best, native app for each platform and have
zero risk of being affected by a single company cancelling, closing,,
increasing the price etc..

Notion does seem pretty interesting, but if they ever shut, stop innovating,
or are outshined by a competitor, I don't fancy the idea of moving everything

~~~
skipnup
Can you recommend a markdown native app for Windows? Currently switching to
simple markdown notes myself but a bit annoyed always opening VS Code for a
tiny note.

~~~
natemwilson
Notable is great and open source.

[https://notable.md/](https://notable.md/)

~~~
robotblake
According to
[https://github.com/notable/notable/blob/master/SOURCE_CODE.m...](https://github.com/notable/notable/blob/master/SOURCE_CODE.md)
the current version is no longer open-source.

------
careyrouse
I don't think Notion is for everyone. One of the limitations that I’ve seen
with products like Notion is permissions. They don't offer granular
permissions for viewing and editing down to the column, row or cell level.
That is one of the reasons why I created cloudternal.com.

------
ak217
I'm interested in Notion, but I can't get over the fact that they use a
Somalia TLD for their app. I'm just not sure why they have to use this TLD for
what I assume is vanity purposes, and I think there are security implications
to using it.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
This is a perfect example of an app that you would want to self-host rather
than give random people your personal data on a plate. The ability to self-
host should be taught at schools so that everybody should be independent and
actually own their own data.

------
bovermyer
I paid for Notion for a little over a year. Ultimately, though, I migrated to
using Zim backed by Dropbox. I just didn't need the powerful features of
Notion. I only needed a wiki with a desktop interface and cloud storage.

------
tkainrad
A couple of months ago, I published a blog post* about maintaining my personal
knowledge base as a software engineer. Notion plays a significant role in this
setup.

I do agree with others that Notion's flexibility can turn into a problem.
Therefore, it is essential to clearly define use cases and conventions.
Luckily, you don't have to argue about those with anyone else if you use it as
a personal knowledge base ;)

* [https://tkainrad.dev/posts/managing-my-personal-knowledge-ba...](https://tkainrad.dev/posts/managing-my-personal-knowledge-base/)

------
nepthar
I'd be grateful if one of you product design folks could explain the rampant
use of emoji. I notice that most things incorporate emoji extensively these
days. Has that been shown to boost engagement or something?

------
mr-karan
I use Joplin and sync all my notes to Dropbox. It cannot be called a Notion
alternative exactly, because Notion's flexibility to manage different things
using "blocks" is unmatched for. However after using Notion, I felt that most
of my time/energy goes into understanding how to create the template and no
it's not a one time thing. Every time I add a to-do/task or an issue or use it
as a bookmark manager, I am often presented with the question "Could it be
done any better?". It's very important to get the tool out of your way if you
follow any process like GTD.

My current workflow involves Taskwarrior + Joplin. I use TW for very very
specific tasks and `task next` helps me plan my day. I use Joplin as my
"Notebook" and have all my notes synced there. The default theme is a bit
ugly, agreed, so I use "Artim Dark" with it. The biggest reason to choose
Joplin was that it's actively maintained, the apps are not great but decent
I'd say, it lets me use the APIs and CLI tools to backup my Joplin DB and
upload to remote storage periodically (in addition to the built in Dropbox
sync), in case the sync doesn't work some day. I also use Joplin Web Clipper
Firefox extension to save bookmarks/screenshots from website to a notebook
"Bookmarks". It can even store the whole webpage in your Notebook, which is
beautifully rendered. It even has support for E2EE for notes, but I am yet to
explore that. The search is based on SQLite FTS4 and it works _awesomely_
well. There is a support for wildcard queries, and it basically searches
across all your notebooks and is quite fast that too. Also, I _love_ writing
in Markdown, and unlike Notion, this is really quick to launch, open a
notebook and start writing ASAP without dealing with the cognitive overhead
that Notion presents with it's quirky "Template/Empty Page" options. Did I
mention that I can write notes in any editor (I use VS Code) and Joplin will
simply `watch` for changes on that file and save it in your notebook? :D

So basically I am in full control of my data, something any Notion user can
never claim. I also love the fact that the code is OSS, the APIs are open and
it allows me to build tools on top of Joplin to use it the way I like. And I
don't have to worry for the day, the VC funding of Notion dries up and I am
left with no option but to move to some other SASS product.

~~~
theshrike79
Another vote for Joplin here. All my notes are synced to Fastmail's WebDAV
endpoint, I own all my data and can export it as plain markdown at any time.

The only feature it's lacking for me currently is a Drafts-like quick capture
action on the iOS version.

Notion looks like one more super-hyped web-app, who will get insane amounts of
VC money and start adding features no one needs or wants just to spend it all.
Then it'll be a bloated mess that's not quick or easy to use.

What I would support is a note-taking solution, that is run like Basecamp. No
VC money, no immense hype, just people dogfooding their own product and
keeping it lean, functional and profitable.

------
manigandham
Side note: Basecamp is also free for personal use now:
[https://basecamp.com/personal](https://basecamp.com/personal)

------
factsaresacred
Still clinging onto OneNote 2016, the last version that allows you to store
your data locally.

There are some things - like personal notes - that really don't need to live
in the cloud.

------
blacklight
API, please. Using a jack of all trades like Notion doesn't make any sense to
me unless it comes with a decent way to integrate it with 3rd parties. Its
features are surely impressive, but without a proper API Notion will be like a
fancy metropolis without any connection with the outside world. People have
been asking Notion to provide a usable API for a long time now: it's a shame
that the company doesn't even bother to provide an ETA.

------
input_sh
I'm wondering how this impacts existing paying users. As far as I understand,
by downgrading, we'd lose access to current 30-day revision history and access
to an API that's still Coming Soon™.

I guess it makes sense to downgrade until API is actually released. "Coming
soon" messaging seems promising, but yet again, it's been on their priority
list for at least half a year now. Seems hardly justified to spend another $30
or so waiting for it.

------
TacoToni
As a user of Apple Notes for personal and OneNote for work. What are the
benefits of Notion - i have the app installed, but i always default to basic
apple notes.

~~~
salilpn12
I love apple notes for its simplicity too but I think it lacks a good search
engine and taking down technical notes with code

------
foob4r
Seems like people in this thread want an E2EE alternative. May I mention
[https://standardnotes.org/](https://standardnotes.org/).

It's a very well built notes app, cross-platform. The dev team makes really
solid decisions (they say no more than any other company to feature requests).

I'm in no way affiliated to them, just a happy paid customer who agrees with
their mission and values.

------
rammy1234
I use basecamp for my personal organization. calendar, to-dos and share with
my spouse. Its perfect. It's intuitive and easy to use. why not basecamp ?

~~~
machbio
I use basecamp - but how do you do wiki, notes type of things in basecamp ?

~~~
rammy1234
I keep a vim open all the time and quickly note it down. End of the day, I
transfer it to Basecamp for future tracking or convert that to action items
and schedule it

------
simonebrunozzi
I hope the founders of Notion will read this.

I really love Notion. It's filling the vacuum left by Evernote, once Evernote
started spamming the hell out of its users.

I like how it's built with a "developer" mentality: there are things that you
can do that require a little learning, but become very powerful productivity
shortcuts.

What I really, really HATE about Notion is how they handle using it offline.
At least for me, every few weeks it happens that I get logged out of Notion,
and I couldn't have access to my files offline. It happened to me twice on a
plane, and it was frustrating because I needed to access the information.

The other thing that I am not sure about is how they handle security. I've
simply been lazy not to read enough about it, but perhaps Notion could make it
more clear.

Overall, great job guys. (p.s. I live two blocks from your office, I'd love to
come and say hello post-covid if you'd like. My email is my HN username @
gmail.)

------
ibdf
Does Notion work offline?I tried Notion way back when they launched, but at
the time I was not willing to pay for it. I then switched to Coda, which was
free, but had awful offline capabilities. I then gave up for a while and just
went back to google documents which loaded offline without any issues.

~~~
steveklabnik
Not yet but it's on their roadmap.

------
nickthemagicman
When are we going to get dependency graphs?

I want a ticket to be able to 'depend' on another ticket in a visually
satisfying way like a dependency graph view.

Dependencies are such a huge part of ticketing systems but they don't seem to
be treated with first class attention.

------
kuiro5
I'm long Notion. I've been using it since the beginning, and it's hard to beat
its flexibility. I had a brief stint using plain markdown, but at the end of
the day, most of the notes I'm taking are meant to be shared.

Not sure if it's the rich formatting or customization, but I find myself
coming back to notes and utilizing them much more frequently in Notion than I
did with plain text.

The latest releases have resolved some of my larger issues like performance,
search, and quick notes on mobile. I'm happy they're making their product more
accessible, and I'm looking forward to the API.

------
AlphaWeaver
Last week, Notion leaked this pricing change accidentally on their dev
instance. [0]

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23186295](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23186295)

------
jklinger410
I tried and failed at using Notion due to a lack of recurring tasks. Also a
lot of what was said on here about being _too_ unstructured of an environment.

I found myself wasting time setting things up and then not using them. I found
the community full of people bragging about the beautiful minimalism of their
dashboards. I'm not sure if anyone is "getting things done," however.

I'd be willing to pay Notion for the ability to use recurring tasks, but they
seem interested in solving every other problem with their platform before
tackling recurring tasks.

------
ezekg
Notion's lack of 2FA, user roles, or the ability to enforce (only) Google
OAuth makes it a non-starter for any real use cases in a tech company
(ticket/task management, product planning, employee wiki, etc.). We wanted to
use it, but their lax stance on security made us go elsewhere, even though the
entire team loved the product as an all-in-one solution to product. I found an
old conversation on Twitter dating back a couple years of Notion telling a
customer that 2FA is on the roadmap, which was unfortunate.

------
gtm1260
I love notion. I want to support them and I hope they and their product
continue to grow and improve. But I can't help facepalming a little bit as I
just bought 1 year of notion.

------
txcwpalpha
Anyone mind giving me a TL;DR on the value proposition/use case of Notion? I
have a friend that works at a small company who is absolutely _nuts_ about it
(every single one of his tweets is about it), but I also have seen other
people say it's a convoluted mess once you get above a certain size and they
regret ever going down that path.

Also curious if anyone has comments on how it compares to similar apps like
Dropbox Paper (which Notion seems like a direct clone of) or Quip.

~~~
jotson
It's a nice wiki with some interesting database features (a la airtable).
Writing in it is pretty nice because it's basically markdown.

I'd stopped using it because it was too easy to outgrow the free plan. Now
with unlimited pages I'll give it another shot but I'm still not sold on its
benefits vs storing all my notes locally in plain markdown files.

~~~
Oarch
I'd also recommend Gitbook. They've improved their search features recently
and I'd say they're on a similar level to Notion.

We used it for our company wiki. Wanted to use Notion but for 500 users the
Notion quote came out 15x more expensive so it was a no-brainer!

------
aberry273
Notion is a great workspace app. I am extremely impressed with the polish and
flexibility that it provides. I'm surprised they're opening up to everyone,
but I guess - growth - is the goal for everyone so it makes sense.

I've been working on a similar app
([https://usebustl.com](https://usebustl.com)) focusing on project management.
However in doing so I've really come to appreciate how much of a quality
product Notion is.

------
rbreve
Notion is absolutely amazing, I love the /code snippet, the seamless sharing a
page with a url and the UX. I hope Apple doesn't buy them.

------
nnain
This is much more sensible; their previous 10,000 block limit was rather
fishy. I only gave it a shot for few minutes, when there was hype around it
and those blocks filled up fast. I was like, "So I invest my time moving my
notes to Notion, and by the time I've done all the work in setting up and am
invested, they need payment. Where's the free tier?"

------
rfreiberger
I've been a user of Notion for two years now switching from Evernote. But the
biggest reason was for the tree view which in Evernote is only done using
tags. Are there other note apps that off a tree view?

Also Notion seems to store code blocks without formatting them, I found that
in Evernote, the backtick and single quotes would get formatted even inside a
code block.

------
JSavageOne
Why does Notion not have a GitHub integration? Kind of a dealbreaker for using
it on any tech team unless you just want a wiki.

------
boraoztunc
I like Notion. Mostly using it for personal stuff with tables, like grocery
list, expenses and domains archive.

Also recently build a resources hub on a custom domain using Notion and open-
source toolkit Fruition.

Pretty happy with the result.
[https://resources.remotejobs.center](https://resources.remotejobs.center)

------
Kye
I switched to Joplin when I bumped up against Notion's limits. It's a little
more setup than a cloud app, but it's completely seamless once it's running.
The most complicated part is adding Joplin to system startup for the web
clipper server. All it needs is a real rich editor and a preview on the
clipper.

------
AnonC
If I’ve understood it right, looking at the homepage and the FAQ, Notion is
tied to its own cloud service for storing information, and there’s no way to
use it as a standalone app storing data locally and sync information through
an unrelated service on my own (using, say, Dropbox for example)? If yes, then
this is not for me.

------
dmode
I have to admit, SV has really cracked and disrupted the note taking industry.
Evernote, OneNote, Asana, Trello, JIRA, ToDoist, and now Notion. I tried most
of it and just gave up and started to capture my notes in Google docs and
Todos in spreadsheet. Now that we have disrupted this space, we will soon move
on to flying cars

------
sirusdas
Its amazing that i had just posted a link of Notion in the twitter and
Linkedin for a tool to use as daily driver and just in few hours it shows up
here. To be honest, its a good tool to learn from and master but it needs to
be open sourced to grow much better. Notion is just an idea coming live like
once Linkedin or GitHub was. We need a platform to integrate all other tools
in a single place and it will take a lot of efforts. There are 2 ways to
achieve it. 1\. Private like Notion 2\. Public like ? I personally feel all
big companies must release api's( if they don't already) and work in harmony
to create an ultimate plug and use workspace system. Due to rapid growing of
Tech stacks and tools every day. This is once of the biggest product i can see
in futures to come. I read comments about security and how people wanted it
real bad. To implement security in product like Notion, it might need a rework
from scratch as they this was probably not a concern when they started it and
as it grows it will be difficult to even integrate it again this is were an
open source community comes into play and can be very helpful.

From views on Notion perspective is that this is the right time to go open
source and let the world patch in. It's not a work that can be done in private
as it's a huge pile of possibilities and requires an immense group of talented
people to make it a success.

Why don't i do it then? Well i can definitely start a repo but my lack of
experience, skills will easily out-number me by people who are better. I can
be a good thinker and a decision maker and a leader but this thing needs
support from amazing people and a repo is generally successful because of
immence tech skills in initial phase of development in open source.

------
Corrado
I can't believe that no one has brought up a Lotus Notes comparison yet. The
Notion sales pitch feels very similar to the Notes one; everything in one
place.

Notes itself was actually not that bad but it was very complex and usually
turned into something it shouldn't have been - like an email server.

------
singhrac
Can we talk about how slow it is? Literally the main reason I don't use this
app (which seems so good for my use cases) is that it takes forever to start
up on my phone. I can use it on my desktop but only because it's a fast
machine - I could see a Macbook Air struggling to load it.

~~~
cristinacordova
We just released some performance improvements across the board (improved
mobile startup times from a ship a few days ago linked here:
[https://twitter.com/NotionHQ/status/1261037710665322496](https://twitter.com/NotionHQ/status/1261037710665322496)).
We'd love if you could try it again and we'll definitely continue to work on
this.

~~~
nicesave
Just tried and it is faster. It took several minutes before to load and now
it's acceptable.

------
dashoffset
Good news. But I've been using Roam [1] for a couple months and I don't know
if I can live without "biderectional links" and "unliked references" anymore.

[1] [https://roamresearch.com/](https://roamresearch.com/)

------
bauerd
I wish there was a way to disable all the CSS transitions. Makes the UI feel
unnecessarily laggy

------
zwaps
Question to web-devs: I am using firefox with ublock. Notion, like a few other
pages, load only as blank for me.

The only thing I have disabled are cookies and connections to trackers or ads.
But cookies are not necessary to load a page. And adblocking is standard.

Does anyone know the reason?

~~~
wintermutestwin
Do you have Privacy Badger running in firefox? It blocks hCaptcha, which
Notion uses (unfortunately).

------
obeattie
I think Notion might actually work best in personal/small environments, and
this seems like a smart move to encourage more of that kind of use. My
exposure to it is at a large company, where it really does not work well.

------
alacombe
Worthwhile warning. While I'm not privy to all of the details, management was
considering to make a complete move Notion but the whole plan for whipped due
to privacy and data ownership / confidentiality concerns.

------
qwerty456127
Cool but please also add some basic API to the free personal version so I
could export my notes and add items programmatically using a Python script
(and also to let me author a GitHub Pages Markdown blog from Notion).

------
petre
Those cartoons remind me of the Persepolis animated film:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis_\(film\))

------
pier25
I've never used Notion before.

So I signed up and after looking around for a minute or two I still have no
idea what Notion is. It seems to be a way to create lists of rich to do items
with dates?

Can someone ELI5 Notion to me?

~~~
arnvald
Hi! Initially I had the same impression and my team had a hard time convincing
me to give it a try. Since then I really started enjoying Notion though.

So, what is notion? I'd call it a flexible on-line data organizer. Notion
gives you a concept of pages (which then can have subpages) and blocks. A
block can be a text, a table, a todo list, a calendar, an embedded Tweet etc.

I think a good way to see what you can do with it is to use the templates -
they are example pages that allow you to see what are Notion's capabilities.

A few examples of what I've used Notion for:

* tracking my job applications when I was looking for a new position

* notes on resources I'm using for an online course I'm working on (I have a plan for lessons, each lesson has attached resources)

* planning my holidays trip - it was a combination of todo list, map with our stops, list of hotels I booked etc.

* todo list when moving to another country

I've also seen it used as a team handbook, here's a public example by Blendle:
[https://www.notion.so/Blendle-s-Employee-
Handbook-7692ffe24f...](https://www.notion.so/Blendle-s-Employee-
Handbook-7692ffe24f07450785f093b94bbe1a09)

------
mauricethepiece
Am I going crazy or did this originally link to a blog post about using notion
(rather than bookmarks etc) rather then to the notion site? Can't seem to find
the link anywhere....

------
Fiveplus
As an non-user and since a quick glance at the website helps little - what
exactly is notions USP and what makes it different than a standard note taking
app synchronous across platforms?

------
FalconSensei
I tried it a few months ago on Android. Almost impossible to use (for me) as
the phone's back button makes the app close instead of, you know, going back
to the previous screen

------
rootbid
One way I have found Notion to be useful is writing book summaries, reviews
and taking down notes. And I sometimes find myself crafting dashboards for
project planning.

------
baby_wipe
Is there anything like Notion the only allows .txt files and folders? I would
be very interested in that. I tried doing it with a git repo but I want the
auto-syncing.

~~~
theshrike79
Joplin is markdown, with cloud sync (gdrive, dropbox, webdav etc):
[https://joplinapp.org](https://joplinapp.org)

------
silentwanderer
Microsoft's recent announced open-source Fluid framework sounds very similar
to this - I wonder if that played into their decision to make this free.

------
ggregoire
_TL;DR_ for the people already paying $4/month:

You can downgrade to the free plan for which the number of blocks is not
limited anymore, or keep paying paying $4/month for a bunch of extra features.

From the FAQ:

    
    
        What if I'm already paying for the old Personal Plan?
    
        You've been automatically upgraded to our new Personal Pro Plan at no extra cost!
    
        In addition to all the features of the free Personal Plan, Personal Pro includes:
    
        - No limit on file uploads (5MB is the limit for free)
    
        - Unlimited guest collaborators (5 guests is the limit for free)
    
        - Version history up to 30 days
    
        - Priority customer support
    
        - API access (coming soon)
    
        You can switch back to the free Personal Plan at any time.

~~~
ivan_ah
Thx. Very helpful TL;DR. I'm particularly excited about the "API access
(coming soon)" part.

------
7ewis
Currently use the Student plan, love Notion!

Do sometimes get lost and wonder if I'm doing things in the most optimal way
though, it's so powerful.

------
treve
Notion would be a killer app for me if it used an open hypermedia protocol and
the ability to run/link to my own endpoints.

------
aperrien
Is there any way to export or backup Notion data to your own personal servers?
I'd happily pay for a nice way to do that.

~~~
input_sh
In the settings, I see an option to export to HTML or Markdown + CSV, plus a
PDF option (enterprise-only).

I've just tried the HTML and it looks pretty good. CSS is at the beginning of
each HTML and looks pretty similar to their light mode interface, no
JavaScript gets loaded.

------
_bxg1
There are just so many note-taking apps/services, it's really hard to tell
what makes a given one stand out.

------
TheGoodBarn
I literally just bought 1 year of Personal Pro last week after running a
little week long trial 2 weeks ago.

------
slightwinder
Does Notion support APIs for automating data through external means? Or has it
at least IFTTT-support?

------
brunoalano
No one mentioned roamresearch.com?

------
benkarst
So this is basically an ad? Ugh.

------
robertlagrant
> Anabella is a software engineer with a love for visual design. Her resume is
> a public page in Notion, making it viewable to the many hiring managers out
> there browsing the web (and others who might share).

This is a weird testimonial. Any frontender should be making their own cool
resume website, and not using a website generator!

------
n_t
Where is the backing store for Notion? Does it save locally, in cloud,
customizable?

------
PascLeRasc
Holy shit. This might be the most beautiful piece of software I've ever used.
The tutorial is perfect, the onboarding was super easy, and the Mac app is
really responsive. And it's not owned by a huge corporation! I'm in love.

Does anyone have any deep-dive recommendations on how to get the most out of
Notion?

~~~
nthnclrk
Check out Marie Poulin's work on YouTube. She also has a 'Notion Mastery'
offering: [https://mariepoulin.com/notion-
mastery/](https://mariepoulin.com/notion-mastery/)

------
saheljalal
I can’t believe the number of note taking apps I just learned about in this
thread

------
simzor
Such a great tool - so glad I gave it a shot, which made me fall in love with
it.

------
nojito
Notion is the embodiment of busy work --> false sense of being productive.

~~~
csallen
Notion's just a tool, like a pen and a pad. If you decide to use it for
nothing but busy work, that's an option I suppose. But I get a lot of real
work done using Notion.

~~~
nojito
The act of using Notion is in of itself busy work which distracts from
productivity.

Not that you are _using_ it for busy work.

It's a strategy used by productivity "gurus" for 100+ years to keep the $$
trickling in.

Just a few years ago it was todist...before that it was Omni.

Once notion peaks we will all move on to the next one.

~~~
riezebos
According to this description I believe you could also say writing tests or
using git is just busy work. Nevertheless, a lot of people use tools like git
and notepad (or notion) to organize their work.

------
frozenlettuce
Currrently I use vimwiki + a cron job to push my wiki to a Gitlab repo

------
nyxtom
It actually deters me away that there is default content already there when I
load the app. In my opinion, less is more and starting off with no content at
all is a helpful cleaner alternative than having to delete all that default
content.

~~~
marvinblum
True, but it sometimes helps to get you started. We wrote a simple "Get
started" article for Emvi [1] which can be deleted quickly. But users send us
mails asking for documentation, which we will add after beta. It's nice to
have this documentation inside your workspace, but can get in your way too. I
haven't decided what to prever.

[1] [https://emvi.com/](https://emvi.com/)

------
troughway
I wonder if this is a response to Microsoft's recent moves.

~~~
mtmail
Regarding the timing I'd say it's rather the $50m USD they got as investment
in April.

------
tzfld
Is it only for me or the linked site is very slow? (Firefox)

~~~
O_H_E
Nope, also ff and molasses slow from 3 days ago.

------
switcheroo
I wonder if this was decided because of pressure from Roam?

------
rsify
Brilliant! My free credits plan was about to expire.

------
koolhead17
Evernote Airtable Notion . ... .... .....

What is next?

------
ambivalents
Nice idea, but for better or worse I equate Notion with work. So, I would
rather not be reminded of work when organizing my personal life.

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zerubeus
How this replaces Google Drive the other time I can't upload a file larger
than 4gb ?!

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marvinblum
It's not a replacement for Drive as most note taking app are... well for note
taking and not file storages. I would recommend to use Dropbox if you want
both in one tool or separate those two use cases.

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zerubeus
[https://www.notion.so/personal](https://www.notion.so/personal) If you scroll
down in this page you'll see they are saying it replace Google Drive

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marvinblum
Okay... well that's not the case I guess.

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devin
You're the product.

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doctorbuttes
Using Notion is awesome, but does require you to bring your own structure.
Templates help, but much like any other process in your organization, it
requires occasional review to keep the team on the same page to keep it tidy
and useful. It helps to have a champion/steward for it.

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user0x1d
Google Docs on steroids. I approve of it.

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thatoneguytoo
There are major disadvantages to using something like Notion for personal work
- including non discoverability of work or thoughts. Most people are better of
with pen and paper.

I've gone into further depth here:
[https://usedone.today/blog/posts/davinci/](https://usedone.today/blog/posts/davinci/)

