
Does your mind jump around, stay on task or get stuck? - upen
http://news.berkeley.edu/2016/10/31/wanderingmind/
======
slowmovintarget

      My mind went for a walk the other day.
      It returned after a time with such mixed company,
      That I thought maybe it had lost its way.
    
      The new notions, though, they mixed with old.
      They composed and compiled, assembled and then beguiled,
      Until I saw my mind had been quite bold.
    
      It went off in willing pursuit with glee,
      The shadows and crisp light of wanton understanding.
      I am quite glad it brought such back to me.

~~~
ianstubbs
Who wrote this?

~~~
slowmovintarget
Me, 19 hours ago. :)

Took a second pass to get the syllable count right.

------
narrator
I get sick of working after a while and then I go read Hacker News again. Then
I go back to work, or get a coffee.

Lately, I've started doing Khan Academy's "World of Math" while I wait for
builds or tests or deploys. It's basically over 1000 exercises that encompass
all of math you'd learn if you weren't a math major: from counting up through
differential equations. Some of it is absurdly easy, some of it is a nice
refresher, a few things I forgot how to do and there is of course a perfect
explanation included. It's possible to make meaningful progress in a minute or
two, so perfect for those little build breaks.

Generally when I get stuck I go into emacs org mode and just use it to
brainstorm about what to do next. If that doesn't work I close my eyes and try
and meditate for 30 seconds before trying again.

~~~
michaelgrafl
I've been trying to do 10 minutes of Duolingo instead of browsing Hacker News
when I need a break from work. But doing the latter has become a really strong
habit over the last few years that's hard to break.

I hope it's working better for you than for me.

~~~
eridal
I've been doing a lot of Duolinguo and it works like wonders to start picking
a new language but then, at some point, it becomes repetitive and boring.

How do you deal with it?

~~~
michaelgrafl
I don't have that problem. I guess your Duolingo work ethic surpasses mine.

However, if I'd become too bored to do Duolingo, I'd progress on something a
bit harder like reading gossip magazines (they use simple language and have
emotionally charged content, which makes it an easy read).

------
norea-armozel
I'm naturally scatterbrained I swear. I'll be reading HN about half the time
I'm working. I'm not sure why I need to switch between it and my other tasks
at work. It's just something I do I guess. I can focus when I have to but
honestly nothing keeps me focused for long unless I'm really interested in it.
Like I can read the Wikipedia for hours on history of the Reconquista but God
help me I can't focus on a boring lecture of the same subject.

~~~
Declanomous
That comment fully captures my entire method of working. I have been diagnosed
with ADHD though. I resisted the diagnosis for a really long time, because I'm
very high achieving, but knowing really helps manage it in the long run.

Honestly, software development is a really natural field for someone with
ADHD. I half joke the reason why I learned how to program is because I hate
repetitive tasks, but I think my inability to concentrate on tedious work
really was impetus to learn how to program.

My friends in college, all of whom focus fully on one task at a time, used to
joke that it was impossible to catch me working, cause I was always doing
something else at the same time.

~~~
lfowles
Before I realized it was ADHD, I always joked that "I needed to slow down a
bit so my brain won't catch on fire" .. 30 minutes browsing the internet to 5
minutes of studying/homework.

~~~
Declanomous
"Use the pomodoro technique." No problem... crap I've been reading Wikipedia
for two hours.

------
markpapadakis
John Carmack's said "Focus is a matter of deciding what not to do". I think
that quote describes a fairly efficient heuristic for keeping your mind
focused.

~~~
luxpir
Absolutely. Didn't know he'd said anything on focus, interesting.

Cal Newport's book on 'Deep Work' covers similar ground.

------
infiniteparamtr
Whenever Elon Musk answers questions about how to learn as effectively as he
has over the years, he routinely says "my process isolation isn't what it used
to be."

I don't think I've ever had or ever will have any capacity to isolate a
process and complete a large project.

~~~
NhanH
What does process mean in this context?

~~~
qznc
Operating system processes are isolated such that they do not mix up memory.
Focus means not being distracted by unrelated thoughts/memories.

------
junto
Not surprisingly, my mind can be completely focused for hours when I'm doing
something I want to do. If it's something I don't want to do, then not so
much.

~~~
wallace_f
I feel like I have this problem to an extreme degree, and I still don't know
how change it, even a little bit, anyone have any ideas?

~~~
internaut
I was once watching Elon Musk talk about this, he said something kind of
curious, which I'll paraphrase here because I forget his exact words. He said
he does not feel motivated every hour of the day, occasionally running into
snags, ick factor, brain fog but he also doesn't not view handling those as
options. He just literally does not think of 'dealing with it', which sounds
like the opposite of most self help book advice It is not so much thinking, as
the lack of it that gives him an exceptional personal executive command to
coordinate.

Either that or he's got a secret supply of NZT.

It does speak to several things I've read about the brain though. The higher
brain functions are 'new' and rudimentary. It fits in with Moravec's Thesis
about AI. I don't see many animals procrastinating or stressing out unless
there is an obvious physical stimulus that explains why they're behaving like
that. Many of the psychological phenomena humans experience must be related to
higher brain function and it being evolutionarily unrefined. In the human
species itself there is a wide spread of behavior, where a lot of intellectual
people are neurotic as hell (kvetching being quite noticeable) but the
obviously less intellectual apparently don't suffer quite as much. It cannot
be a coincidence that meditation has the goal for absence of thoughts and so
many geeks practice it.

------
_98fj
> _For example, their review of brain-imaging studies found that when the
> brain was focused on a task at hand, its prefrontal “executive” network,
> which governs planning and impulse control, among other functions,
> constrains other brain activity._

That is the reason why dopamine-raising stimulants actually have a calming
function on people with ADHD: they fuel this "suppressing" function of the
brain, thus enabling it to calm itself.

My theory about ADHD is that there's a genetic disposition, where people need
to move physically in order to have their dopaminergic systems functioning
properly. Probably a bad adaption to our rather stationary lifestyle.

On top of that I think that if children are frequently interrupted and
confronted with bad emotions they don't learn to focus.

~~~
lfowles
Keep in mind that ADHD has two subtypes: Hyperactive and Inattentive. Where
Hyperactive individuals express themselves physically, Inattentive individuals
get lost in their thoughts.

~~~
Declanomous
I feel it's important to note that there's also combined type, which combines
elements from both hyperactive and inattentive types.

~~~
lfowles
Absolutely, I find that I'm naturally on the inattentive side but hyperactive
symptoms present when I'm forcing myself to pay attention to something (like a
lecture) and not let my mind wander.

~~~
_98fj
Just a quick question (in relation to my comment to your other comment): In
these lectures that you find hard to concentrate on: Could you say that you
feel disgust/repulsion? There doesn't need to be a rational reason, disgust is
completely trained and can be felt for anything from the look of the windows
to the hairstyle of the lecturer to the actual topic.

If so, then your inattentiveness could be your mind trying to escape that
feeling.

~~~
lfowles
That's the worst part, I don't even know have a guess as to why my brain
wanders off. It's just gone and I suddenly realize I haven't been paying
attention for 10 minutes. I don't think disgust/escapism can explain it,
because it can be an extremely fascinating lecture. But my mind will grab on
to a topic and continue on "cruise control" internally before realizing the
road has a curve in it. If I had to pick something, it would be related to
hyperfocus that just gets triggered off of a random thought.

~~~
_98fj
Not meaning to get too personal here, so feel free to ignore this, but it
still could be that you're zoning out to avoid some negative emotions.

Could it be that you're dreading something that is "implied" by the lecture in
a way? Maybe the practise that you feel obliged to do? Maybe the impact the
lecture could have on your work or schedule? Maybe just the end of the lecture
and back to whatever comes after?

------
6stringmerc
Yes [1].

[1] Varies based on diet, exercise, rest, vitamins, seasonal daylight,
supplements and/or substances.

~~~
ge96
Limitless

~~~
simplemath
PSA: Adderall is not Limitless

~~~
ge96
Yeah tolerance and comedowns

------
jccalhoun
My first reaction was to be distracted by fact that the headline doesn't use
an Oxford comma.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma)

I'm not sure what this says about me.

~~~
3chelon
See, I would get distracted if it did have that extraneous comma!

~~~
Yanwar
As the writer of the article at issue, I struggled with whether to use that
extra comma in the headline. I also struggled with calling ADHD a mental
illness. My son has it and while it's challenging, I don't see it as a mental
illness as much as a brain difference. But there's no escaping that it's
defined in the literature as a disorder.

------
elorant
When I get stuck I go for a long walk. As for focusing I started meditating
and it helped a lot.

~~~
girzel
It think it's important to acknowledge the effect the body has on the mind. If
I sleep early, sleep well, rise early, and do some physical exercise first
thing in the morning, I'm essentially a different person: I feel like I double
my work output, yet am still essentially calm.

Beyond that, I think the next step is doing something active and intentional
to improve the mind-body connection -- sleeping and exercising is essentially
only refraining from damaging yourself. Meditation, yoga, taiji, breathing
exercises -- I don't think you can go wrong with any of those. Especially for
people who sit in front of computers all day, minds in the ether, it's
important to remember that you're also a body, always also a body.

~~~
ge96
What kind of exercise? I kind of envy people who bust out 10 miles on a 7.5min
pace

~~~
curun1r
Personal anecdote, so sample size of 1 and YMMV, but 5 months ago I started
doing exercise in the mornings that has done wonders for my concentration and
has helped me drop 25 pounds without changing much else in my life. It takes
15-20 minutes, 3-4 times per week and I literally don't have to get out of bed
to do it.

After being frustrated by my air consumption on a scuba dive, I got interested
in free diving (apnea) training. I found an iOS app called Apnea Trainer that
looked promising and started doing the breathing exercises. I've gone from
being able to hold my breath for just under 90 seconds to breaking 6 minutes
for the first time last week. It also revved up my metabolism (like I said,
I'm down 25 pounds) and I've gone from having borderline hypertension (with a
family history of stroke) to having blood pressure that's almost worryingly
low (usually around 100/50). And, like I mentioned above, it's been good for
concentration and stress levels as well.

Wet training (in a pool or body of water) requires instruction and a partner,
but dry training is pretty safe to do on your own as long as you don't push
yourself beyond your limits on a regular basis.

~~~
lambdadmitry
Interesting! Seems that there is some evidence [1] that your experience can be
generalizable.

[1]:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19850416](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19850416)

------
skywhopper
Not sure how to feel about this article. On the one hand the interview
subjects are making good points about the value of neurodiversity and the fact
that many disorders are just stronger expressions of typical traits. On the
other hand ADHD is labeled a "mental illness" in the opening paragraph. I'm
not sure the writer really absorbed the subject matter.

~~~
viewer5
> On the other hand ADHD is labeled a "mental illness" in the opening
> paragraph

As a sufferer, I agree wholeheartedly with that label. It's an absolute
nightmare to deal with and negatively affects every facet of my life.

And it doesn't allow me to 'think freely and creatively' as the article
asserts, it prevents me from continuing to think about what I want to think
about. That's very much like saying 'nixing the brakes on your car removes the
need for wasting time at stop signs and red lights.' I can't be creative with
it because I can't think about something for long enough to nail down a useful
idea. I GM pen-and-paper RPGs--but never again unmedicated, I learned my
lesson there. Being unable to organize my thoughts enough to run a game or
even think of a premise FOR a game is leagues away from 'thinking freely and
creatively'.

~~~
zacirving
> [ADHD] doesn't allow me to 'think freely and creatively' as the article
> asserts, it prevents me from continuing to think about what I want to think
> about.

Really liked this comment.

On the one hand, studies have suggested that ADHDers are generally more
creative than their intelligence matched peers. This is true with respect to
laboratory tests of creativity [2] and creative achievements in the real world
[3].

On the other hand, @viewer5 brings up a couple deep points about how we should
qualify our interpretations of this research. First, ADHD comes on a spectrum,
and is going to affect different people in different ways. So conclusions
about the "average" individual with ADHD aren't going to generalize to
everyone.

For example, I have the inattentive sub-type of ADHD, but am low on the
spectrum. So my ADHD creates all sorts of problems (I'm late to appointments
and deadlines, distractible, find it hard to sleep, lose expensive stuff,
etc.), but I feel those are outweighed in my case by advantages (e.g.
creativity).

Others who are further along on the spectrum might experience way more of the
disadvantages, and in any case, it's deeply personal.

Second, @viewer5 brings up a super-deep point about creativity (though I'm not
sure if this is what you had in mind). Being creative isn't just about
generating novel ideas (which ADHD probably helps with, on balance).
Creativity also requires the ability to focus long enough to assess and
develop those original ideas.

There's an old idea that different psychological capacities support the
generation and evaluation of creative ideas (see [4]). Psychometric (e.g. [5])
and neuroscientific (e.g. [6]) research has supported this idea. So ADHD might
help idea generation, while hindering idea evaluation and development, which
seems consistent with @viewer5's experiences (disclaimer: I'm spitballing with
this last hypothesis).

[2] White and Shah (2006) "Uninhibited Imaginations: Creativity in Adults with
ADHD" [http://totallyadd.com/wp-
content/uploads/White_Shah_ADHDCrea...](http://totallyadd.com/wp-
content/uploads/White_Shah_ADHDCreativity_PAID.pdf)

[3] White and Shah (2011) "Creative style and achievement in adults with ADHD"
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886910...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188691000601X)

[5] Campbell (1960) "Blind Variation and Selective Retention in creative
thought as in other knowledge processes"
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245588360_Blind_var...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245588360_Blind_variation_and_selective_retention_in_creative_thought_as_in_other_knowledge_processes)

[5] DeYoung et al. (2008) "Cognitive Abilities Involved in Insight Problem
Solving: An Individual Differences Model"
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234819098_Cognitive...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234819098_Cognitive_Abilities_Involved_in_Insight_Problem_Solving_An_Individual_Differences_Model)

[6] Beaty et al. (2016) "Creative Cognition and Brain Network Dynamics"
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26553223](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26553223)

~~~
cableshaft
> Being creative isn't just about generating novel ideas (which ADHD probably
> helps with, on balance). Creativity also requires the ability to focus long
> enough to assess and develop those original ideas.

I highly recommend you watch John Cleese's lecture on Creativity. He
essentially makes that same claim, but terms it as being in 'open' and
'closed' mode. You need to be in the open mode to generate ideas and be
creative, then you need to switch to the closed mode in order to get a good
chunk of work done, then go back to the open mode to get and work with
feedback, then go back to the closed mode to get a chunk of work done, etc. It
fits what you said very nicely.

I've suspected for awhile that I have some level of ADHD (probably inattentive
subtype), but after seeing what my brother went through with ADHD meds, I
decided to just live with it. It's mostly worked out okay, and I can _usually_
focus well enough when I'm working on something I like or a deadline is
looming at work.

Watch it here: [https://vimeo.com/89936101](https://vimeo.com/89936101)

------
pklausler
Depends on the environment around me, more than anything else, I guess. Noise
is death on concentration.

~~~
maxxxxx
Same here. The problem is that after a while I don't even notice the noise
anymore but it still hurts my concentration. When I am in a quiet place
focusing on something is suddenly really easy. It's not only people talking
but the whole white noise like air conditioning.

I also get really tired sitting the whole day in a cube farm. In my home
office I can go for 8 hours straight and am still fresh at the end.

~~~
ryan-allen
White noise SHOULD help as long as it's consistent and uninterrupted. Aircon
coming on and off will get your attention but a constant drone should be
eventually ignored by your brain.

You could try some active noise cancellation headphones with something like
[http://rain.today](http://rain.today) or
[http://mynoise.net](http://mynoise.net), I use this all the time at work to
generate non-musical noise at low volumes and it blocks out all the office
noise.

Recommended headphones would be the Bose QC series or the AudioTechnica ones.
I'm sure there are others!

~~~
maxxxxx
Not to stereotype people but the white noise thing seems to be very American.
Same as having TVs run everywhere so there is some background noise.
Personally I want it just quiet. I also don't want to have headphones on my
ears for an extended period.

~~~
alasdair_
Agreed. It drove me insane (almost literally) with the number of people that
insisted on having a loud fan or a tv on just for the notice once I moved to
the US.

------
zacirving
I'm one of the authors on this paper, and was so happy to hear this thread was
going! I've heard about HN from my hacker friends, and it's hilarious and
flattering to be here!!

Seems like you've been having a great discussion. Thank y'all and stay
curious! I'll go through the comments and respond where I can.

[Edit: thanks to @upen for posting this!!]

------
adhdthrow
I fought so hard through every year at school. At home, computers let my mind
explode in computer games, 3D realms and unlimited feeling exploring of
operating systems and hardware.

The only way to control my thoughts and mind was ridiculous amounts of
exercise, 1 hour run daily or equivalent and drinking 5 cups of coffee per
workday, _just to have a normal focus_.

Somehow, after living a very random 20's. I graduated with a bachelor and a
master degree. My life was a still a mess, but at least I graduated.

Something had to be wrong. The thought had occured to me, is this ADHD, but I
surpressed it. Didn't want it do be me. Felt agonized over the thought of
having a condition, and offended by the character traits that were all exact
descriptions of me.

At age 32 I kept going at a rock bottom slow pace. Had no job. The occational
consulting stint. No proper money in the bank. Everything messy around me,
including my head, clean but untidy. Relationship with my girlfriend hanging
by a thread.

If I was was to stay in the paradigm of trying to get a solid career dayjob,
and performing well, something had to change fundamentally. ADHD is real. Get
diagnosed if you believe you have it. I waited 7 years before daring to speak
to a professional psychiatrist, don't do the same as me if you believe you
have it!

I took the plunge and visited a private Psychiatrist. Nice office, expensive
art hanging on the walls, meters of full bookshelves on surrounding the
interview area. The guy himself, top notch, understanding and genuinely
interested. Through 5 solid sessions, and 2500USD later, I was diagnosed with
ADHD level. "For your own sake, it was really fortunate that you came".

I was prescribed Concerta 54Mg (3x 15mg Ritalin daily).

My life is now entirely upended and everything has been an incredible
improvement in all aspects of my life.

\- After taking the medication, I was able to focus completely on tasks.
Seeing them through, completely focused and analyzing the problems. \--
Sequential tasks (doing something from A through to Z) like doing the dishes,
cleaning my room, or building a spreadsheet model over 7 hours - no problem.
\- Frustrated thougts and mild depression over lack of life progress
completely evaporated \- Before this I couldn't get a job. Couldn't make it
through the interviews. My CV was never good enough et cetera. \- After this,
I got 5 job interviews with great companies, 2 job offers with high salaries
\- I now work in the world's largest technology & strategy consulting company.
\- I was just promoted, fast tracked \- I just got a raise \- My bank now
believes in me financially and is about to offer me a mortage to buy an
apartment \- My diagnosis and medication has given a fantastic life where all
my opportunities are within reach. #RealLifeLimitless

~~~
mobiuscog
I went to see a doctor once, with similar issues.

I was given a leaflet to go to counselling.

:/

~~~
adhdthrow
I think you should get a second opinion. Also, go to a fully fledged
Psychiatrist who specialises in adult adhd, not a regular GP.

~~~
mobiuscog
I think I will.

------
DonHopkins
"I'm trying to think but nothing happens!" -Curly Joe [1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlejsgxOxrU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlejsgxOxrU)

------
pasbesoin
My physical health and environment make an enormous -- fundamental --
difference in this.

Sooner or later, the psych disciplines are bound to catch on to this.
</sarcasm, to greater or lesser degree>

------
pfista
Is there a mirror for the actual review?

~~~
CN7R
[http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v17/n11/pdf/nrn.2016.113.p...](http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v17/n11/pdf/nrn.2016.113.pdf)

