
Why I won't be using Groupon again.. A consumer perspective.  - contactdick
I took a friend out for dinner last Friday and thought it might be a good time to take the plunge and Groupon it. It was an £18 pound deal to get to get £46 pounds of food at a Tapas bar. My thinking went something like this. I like Tapas, the restaurant is a little out of the way but that's ok, the savings mean we can get some nice food, a good bottle of wine and try new place. So I made the booking, slightly curious about how it would all pan out.<p>When we arrived, the place didn't look too appealing from the outside though it did have that kind of Film Noire dirty back alley appeal which I guess is a charm in itself. But you can't judge a book by it's cover so I made joke about it, took a mental to at least Google Earth the next blind restaurant I book and strode on in.<p>It was a much more pleasant experience from the inside, a friendly waitress greeted us and asked if we'd like a bottle of wine. We ordered a pretty decent bottle - upper range of their price list and chatted about the menu. When she came back to take the food order, I pointed out that we'd be using a Groupon voucher to cover part of the cost of the meal (not that it should make any difference but just as a politeness thing). I did this in a slightly awkward apologetic way, using a voucher to pay for a meal isn't something I do often and it just makes me slightly uncomfortable.<p>As soon as this happened though, a dark cloud came over the proceedings. The whole atmosphere of the meal changed. The face and cheery demeanor of the waitress visibly dropped. It was like I'd sucked the fun out of her. She glumly pointed out the bottle of wine we'd ordered wasn't available on Groupon so we'd have to pay for that separately. The wording of the voucher had been 'Authentic tapas for two with bottle of wine at xxx tapas bar and restaurant - value £46.00'. We also had to order the other bottle which was not on the menu but priced around £20 pounds leaving us with 26 to spend on food (when we tried it later, even my limited wine palette could tell that £20 pounds wasn't exactly fair value for it). She did actually say to another waiter passing by "it's another Groupon on table 4" which did more to make us feel cheap and dirty.<p>Having read about the Groupon experience from a business side, I felt some sympathy. I know that %50 - %100 of the money we paid for the voucher was going to Groupon and that Groupon customers are apparently 'tight and argumentative' - they were probably sick of people like us by now and trying to recoup some costs with the old 'cheap overpriced compulsory wine switch'. Anyway, having £26 pounds left to spend on the food, we went a fair bit over. It was decent, but I'd never go there unless they were offering a massive discount as they were. Our portions were surprisingly small, and in my new found state of Groupon paranoia, I looked around at some of the 'non Groupon’ dish sizes for a size comparison.. I hope it was just my imagination. 
The meal ended up being £42 pounds + the £18 we'd paid in advance. £60 pounds for an average meal and two bottles of wine isn't great value, but more significantly, I learned the restaurant actually despised 'Grouponers' - clearly they had become jaded with the Groupon experience. Fortunately for us, we could simply scratch it from our list of restaurants to visit and forget the whole experience. As I was walking home, I went past the Tapas bar on my street that is only 3 months old but continually turns people away because they are too full. I had the realisation that good restaurants don't use Groupon because they don't have to - word of mouth is much more effective. Bad restaurants use Groupon because they have to - and any place that can discount so much for their customers makes me question how ridiculous their prices are to start. To any small business thinking about using Groupon:<p>1) The only reason I went there was for the discount
2) I will never go back there
3) If asked by my friends, I'd say it was overpriced (relative pricing is a powerful thing)
======
patio11
I think you might be overestimating how much insight the waitress has into the
business. It may be the case that this was a close, family-held restaurant and
they have a daily pow-wow on cost of goods and marketing strategy, but I
wouldn't bet that way. My guess? Groupon customers are poor tippers, either
from adverse selection or because they either a) attempt to tip with leftover
funny-money or b) tip based on the amount they paid rather than the face
value. Thus, mentioning you to other waitstaff: they're complaining about
prospective tips. ("Gah, I drew another Groupon while you get a good table.")

Put it this way: if you had put twenty quid in her hand when you sat down she
would probably have instantly become the most devoted Groupon fan in the
world.

~~~
hnsmurf
Groupon customers are definitely poor tippers. I've known a number of waiters
to complain about it.

The problem is they tip on the Groupon price, not the full price, and are thus
tipping something like 40% of what they should be.

~~~
bdhe
_The problem is they tip on the Groupon price, not the full price, and are
thus tipping something like 40% of what they should be._

I am not intimately familiar with the tipping culture (at least in the US),
but here are some genuine questions: Is there an inherent reason you tip on
the full price? Is it a tax? If tipping is to support staff wages does that
mean waiters who serve fancier higher priced food items are entitled to larger
wages solely for the fact that their table happened to order a costlier meal?

~~~
noodle
this is something that probably isn't clear to people who don't live in the US
-- wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage.
they rely on tips as their primary source of income, and tips are usually
shared with a bartender/busboy.

if a restaurant runs a groupon and all grouponers tip on the post-coupon rate,
the wait staff will be taking a rather large pay cut for the length of time
that people are grouponing. i know i'd be grumbling if something my company
did resulted in me making 50% less for a month or two.

more expensive restaurants and meals mean more expensive tips because the wait
staff is more experienced, better trained, higher quality, and do more work.
one person at a higher-end restaurant can give high quality service to fewer
people than one person at a low-end place, and meals at a higher-end place
usually take much longer. yes, the average tip is larger, but the frequency in
which they receive tips is lower. yes, they make more, but not _that_ much
more.

~~~
jeromec
_wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage._

Not true. That's why we have federal minimum wage laws. If the wait staff are
actually employed and not acting as independent contractors, then they are
paid the minimum wage for their state. (Although I will grant that this being
a living wage is definitely arguable.)

Edit: Correction - although not California (my state), apparently some states
_do_ allow minimum wages in the $2-3 range if employees receive tips [1]. For
the downvoters, I only count about 5 states that do this, however. The
original statement does not accurately reflect the majority of the U.S.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages>

~~~
illumin8
Not true. Waiters have a different minimum wage:

<http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm>

Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum
wage? Answer: According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are
individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly
receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part
of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages. An
employer may credit a portion of a tipped employee's tips against the federal
minimum wage of $7.25 per hour effective July 24, 2009. An employer must pay
at least $2.13 per hour. However, if an employee's tips combined with the
employer's wage of $2.13 per hour do not equal the hourly minimum wage, the
employer is required to make up the difference. The employer who elects to use
the tip credit provision must inform the employee in advance and must be able
to show that the employee receives at least the applicable minimum wage (see
above) when direct wages and the tip credit allowance are combined. If an
employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 an
hour do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the
difference. Also, employees must retain all of their tips, except to the
extent that they participate in a valid tip pooling or sharing arrangement.

~~~
sambe
So, although waiting tables is - predictably - not a great job, nearly all
waitstaff in the US will be making 7.25/h as you would expect from federal
minimum wage? And contrary to what most people attempt to convince me?

Coming from a country with a culture of smaller tips and significantly less
social pressure to give them, I usually say that I should not be forced to
make up for the employer's false advertising when receiving only mediocre
service. This now seems correct - not tipping wi make the employer pay the
remainder, not force the waitstaff on to the streets. Right?

~~~
jasonwocky
Nearly all waitstaff in the US will be making more than 7.25/h. If "not
tipping" suddenly became endemic, I imagine plenty of waitstaff would be
forced "onto the streets".

------
raganwald
My perspective is that there is a systemic disconnect between what serves the
restaurant's interests and what serves the staff's interests. A Groupon
promotion may help fill empty seats and sell off perishable inventory, but
that may not be a benefit for the staff that work for tips.

This is a massive problem for the consumer, because the promotion is for some
specific food and drinks, but not for service. If the restaurant is unable to
motivate the staff to like the deal, you may have to negotiate separately ("I
know these deals can be a PITA, but we intend to tip on the face value of our
meal"). This isn't the customer's fault, of course, and I sympathize with the
OP for crossing this restaurant off his list: Why return to a restaurant that
doesn't work out how to make their staff happy about the promotion?

A bigger question is whether this is an isolated incident or something to
expect when dealing with similar deals. From what I know about the way small
restaurants are managed, I would expect this to happen on a fairly regular
basis.

One possible solution: The fine print of the deal could levy a 15% gratuity on
the face value. Customers who want the freedom to tip less should exercise the
freedom to pay the face value of the food and beverages. If I was offered a
$100 dinner for two for $40 plus $15 mandatory gratuity, I don't think I'd
bark about it.

------
lucisferre
I wasn't aware tipping was all that common in the UK but here in Canada I
would be wary of using Groupon for that exact reason. Personally I find
tipping to be a nearly meaningless exercise (nearly because occasionally great
service deserves a bit extra). Because I live in a country where we are
expected to tip, restaurant owners do (and are allowed to with lower minimum
wages) expect to be able to underpay their staff and let them live off tips.

It is to the point where most chains have a tipping system where wait staff
tip out to everyone, chefs, bussers, etc so everyone gets a chip at it. If you
undertip the wait staff can actually lose money.

I'm tired of being responsible for someone elses paycheck. Most restaurant
waitstaff are merely ok, not amazing and not deserving of something extra,
nonetheless I feel obligated to pay 15%+ anyways because of the culture.

Worse than this there are many here who despite the tipping culture feel
perfectly free to never tip or undertip, leaving the rest of us to make up the
difference (how do you think we go from 10% being a normal tip to 15-20%?).

It's for this reason alone and because I know most Groupon users are brutal
cheapskates I will probably never take a Groupon for a restaurant. Though one
persons advice to tip up front or at least let the waitstaff know you have no
intention of only tipping on the remainder is valid and if you are going to
get a groupon deal you'd do well to remember that.

What sucks about this whole anecdote is it means owners using Groupon are
getting doubly screwed. They are getting one-timer coupon clipper who don't
care about the crap service since they are never coming back anyways, and they
are getting potential first customers who are not going to come back now
because of the bad service. Even worse they will likely get negative word of
mouth.

Of course there is a simple solution here, plan ahead and don't mistreat your
staff by making them beg for tips. Personally I have zero sympathy for
restaurant owners since they themselves are the ones who maintain this
bullshit tipping culture.

~~~
hnal943
_I'm tired of being responsible for someone elses paycheck._ What's the
alternative? Do you think the total cost of the night out would go down if the
waitstaff was paid more? You're going to be paying their salary one way or the
other, it's better that you get some input on their performance I think.

~~~
hugh3
Maybe, but I'm sick of the way the price of everything in America is a lie.

This steak will be thirty dollars! Except it won't be, because you've got to
pay tax on top of that, so it's thirty-three dollars! And then you've gotta
pay an extra fifteen percent minimum on top of that, only apparently people
think you're cheap if you only tip fifteen percent nowadays, and you just
_know_ you're going to be too lazy to do the maths properly so you're just
gonna wind up rounding it up to forty dollars, aren't you?

On a recent trip back to Australia I did discover everything was very
expensive, but at least you pay the price it says and not a penny (errr, cent)
more. No mental arithmetic, no stress.

------
wccrawford
It's really sad, because it's not only good restaurants that do the Groupon
thing. It can be a good way to advertise your business in addition to the
standard (boring) ways.

Any restaurant that treats their customers like crap because the customer uses
a deal that the restaurant approved is... Well, rude. I don't have much use
for rude restaurants. For a lot cheaper, I can cook the food myself, and it's
probably as good. Worse, the time spent is about the same, too! And cooking
can be fun.

So in the end, what does a restaurant offer me? New dishes, and good service.
Most restaurants don't have the former, so that just leaves good service.

The restaurant in this post failed at the only thing they can offer their
customers. And all because they made a bad decision. (I'm assuming they think
it's bad because of their actions.)

I'm not a Groupon apologist. Some of the tactics I've heard lately are
downright dirty, and detrimental to both the restaurant and Groupon both. But
it's not inherently a bad thing.

~~~
drivingmenuts
There is a distinct possibility that restaurant owners approved the deal with
Groupon but staff is left to suffer the consequences, possibly with little
warning from management or the owners.

The restaurant business is not exactly raking in the big bucks right now, with
the continuing (and deepening) recession, and the owners may have signed on in
desperation to claw out whatever money they can.

~~~
wccrawford
I'm not sure how it matters what part of the company went wrong. As a
customer, you only care about the end product. You don't care whether an owner
or a waiter failed to do their job. The responsibility for the failure always
lies on the business.

------
ahrens
I think the biggest problem is that the staff and sometimes the owners don't
understand what is the biggest possible gain - to get people in the door and
then blow them away with great service and great products. I guess Groupon and
the other giants probably don't tell the companies this enough. If I buy a
coupon and get great service (pretty much the opposite of the story above) I
would come back and recommend it to my friends. What companies end up doing,
is paying through their noses to spread bad reputation about themselves.

If the restaurant would have treated the customers like all the other guests
and maybe let them order the more expensive bottle of wine while explaining
that it's actually not included (with a smile!) those two guys would have
walked out happy and would probably have returned.

Groupon and the other coupon sites is a marketing expense, so treat it like
one. You don't put up ads in the magazine with a discount and then scare away
the customers when they show up! I don't defend the coupon sites, they seem to
take a whole lot of the money for a small benefit. However, if you go into the
deal, you might as well make the best of it. They will use the groupon no
matter if you're nice or not.

------
cletus
I see 5 problems:

1\. An offer for "Pay $X for $Y of Z" have at least anecdotally led to people
spending $X+(small number) where a lot of those who offer such deals are
expecting more (the Gap was a notable example of this). Perhaps a better model
is a capped percentage discount on the bill?

2\. Evolving social etiquette of tipping. It may simply be that people are
unaware that the right thing to do is probably to tip on the undiscounted
price. Or it may simply be that those who are inclined to use Groupons are
simply cheap. I expect it's a little of both;

3\. No caps on offers is a big problem. It means businesses can't budget what
are basically marketing expenses. For this to work you need to be able to
track individual offers (so a person can't use the same offer twice). This has
the added advantage of you being able to mine this data as you know who used
an offer, when they did, what they spent, what other offers they've taken and
so on;

4\. Businesses seem to resent people using these coupons. This I don't get
(other than the complaints of wait staff). It's a marketing expense. If a
Coolhaus truck can sit a block away from my office in downtown Manhattan
giving out free ice cream sandwiches for several days (raising awareness and
creating a lot of good will) then you, as a business, owe yourself this: leave
the customer happy. If they're unhappy you've just wasted your marketing spend
on them; and

5\. Having to ask for the offer upfront is BAD. It's awkward. It leads to at
least the suspicion of getting smaller portions or otherwise getting the cheap
version. It probably means you'll get worse service. The offer should simply
be X% off a bill (max value $Y). Exclude alcohol entirely.

Honestly I expect Groupon to sink into the ocean. Businesses don't seem to
like it. Consumers are having mixed experiences. The early investors have been
paid off with large F/G rounds. Revenue per customer is decreasing. What
Groupon is doing isn't exactly rocket science. I kinda see small investors
being left with the bill for all this post-IPO.

It's a shame really because I see such things as a great way to promote a
restaurant (which is actually hard).

~~~
contactdick
I'll certainly watch the IPO though I won't be participating. My understanding
is that they think they have a competitive advantage coming from the Groupon
voice
[https://docs.google.com/View?id=dmv9rbh_2g92x4scj&pli=1&...](https://docs.google.com/View?id=dmv9rbh_2g92x4scj&pli=1&ndplr=1)
\- the way the write their ads.

------
jcromartie
I don't use groupon for restaurants or services because I'd probably hate it
if I were in their shoes. I think business owners get roped in the same way
that artists or programmers do free work because "it'll look great on your
portfolio/resume".

~~~
contactdick
I think you're right that they don't love it - and if I were in there shoes
I'd have trouble keeping a pleasant demeanour if I was losing money from
people being in my restaurant too!

~~~
wnight
This is opposed to the alternative of traditional advertising, where you're
losing money on the people who aren't even in your restaurant.

These deals are reasonable to offer if your overhead is more than your
incremental costs, for instance. Or if the look of a full restaurant (and thus
the vibe) is more important than making money off of those initial customers.

The joke is groupon taking so much for brokering this. Groupon doesn't do
anything to warrant $1 per coupon, let alone 1/4 the face value. If it takes
off it'll be on ad-driven sites taking no or very little cut, and/or via the
restaurants' websites and facebook pages directly.

------
ben1040
A few weeks ago a tapas restaurant in my city ran a Groupon for the second
time.

The comments on the deal were nearly universally from people who had purchased
the first coupon, and when they tried to redeem them staff at the restaurant
treated them like lepers.

I've only bought and used one restaurant Groupon and honestly I didn't really
had a problem. Then again I didn't show it until it was time to pay (are you
supposed to show it when you order?). It was a $15 coupon and we used it to
cover part of a $50 tab for dessert and drinks. I imagine that was probably
not the norm, and they likely more often see people who spend only $14 and ask
if they can have a dollar in change.

~~~
contactdick
I have no idea whether you're supposed to show it up front or not either - it
didn't say on the voucher. I felt as though I should at least tell them.

------
ssebro
I had a similar terminal groupon experience: I had meal of really, really bad
indian food, at a restaurant I would never have tried otherwise and when I
mentioned I was going to use a groupon I was told that my bill now included a
15% non-negotiable "service charge". In fact, my bill was taken back and
changed so it was clear that the "tip" was compulsory.

~~~
rmc
Is that legal? Can restaurants legally include a serive charge?

~~~
michaeldhopkins
They can put whatever they want on the bill but the post author was not
required to pay it. Of course, he would be in a difficult position since the
restaurant would have taken the tip and put it towards the service charge, so
the author could not have easily paid for just the meal and the tip.

------
AndrewWarner
I've found that it's best to show the Groupon when it's time to pay the bill.
I know we're supposed to show it when we sit down, but no restaurant has ever
complained.

------
pseudonym
It sounds like a rather depressing experience, and I'm rather sorry to hear
that.

That said, would you consider going back after the groupon deal, just on a
purely scientific basis, to see what you'd rate it at based off a clean slate?
I'm mildly curious about the actual differences when the place actually wants
you there, as opposed to "handling" you.

~~~
contactdick
I like your commitment to proper scientific process but I'm not sure I could
bring myself to go back though - my heart is no longer in it..

------
infinite_snoop
I've just recieved an offer in a Groupon mail listed as:

£69.95 instead of £239.00 - Classic Black Pentax I-10 Digital Camera with
Kodak Portable Charger at Teqport

A quick search on Amazon shows it available at £74.98.

~~~
rsheridan6
A restaurant wouldn't be able to do that because they'd scare off their
regular customers. But for anything where they can set a special price for
Groupon customers, I'd suspect they were giving a discount on an inflated
price.

------
snorkel
No doubt waiters loathe serving Grouponers.

~~~
rb2k_
I know that waiters in the US rely on tips, but I think it's unprofessional to
deliver bad service just because they think that they won't get a good tip.

Which is strange considering that people tip for good/professional service.
Maybe there is a self-fulfilling prophecy somewhere in there :)

------
jdietrich
If an established restaurant sees any sense in offering a 60% discount, it's
probably already fucked. You said that the restaurant looked dirty and
uninviting from the outside. That would be fine if it was part of a successful
restaurant's branding, but clearly they're not successful, otherwise they
wouldn't be offering a 60% discount.

Groupon is for the most part the small business equivalent of Pets.com losing
a buck on every sale and making it up on volume. Anyone who has been in the
business for more than five minutes knows that voucher customers convert very
poorly to regulars. Given the size of the discount and Groupon's cut, there's
no way that this restaurant could be profitably converting, particularly if
they're making no effort at all to do so.

Badly run businesses are badly run; Film at eleven.

------
tibbon
I'm really curious to see which way Groupon goes in the long term. With things
like Yelp reenforcing a feedback cycle which directly effects the eating
establishment in the long term, it rarely becomes all that great of a deal for
the restararaunt or the consumer.

~~~
contactdick
I agree, in the internet age I was hoping searching would become more
efficient so that 'find good restaurant in xxx' was a sensible thing to type
into a search box. Currently there's too much noise so places like yelp are a
much better option. Interestingly Yelp hasn't taken off here yet.

~~~
kls
To me sites like Yelp and Urban Spoon have too much signal to noise ratio as
well. I readily admit I am a food snob. And not the tasteless, this place is
expensive so I have to be seen here type. I am very critical of food. I have a
culinary degree and I have a refined pallet when it comes to food. I eat at
hole in the wall joints as well as 5 star restaurants and the only thing I
care about and judge a restaurant by is the quality of the food.

I am constantly depressed by the high ratings that establishments receive on
sites like Yelp and Urban Spoon only to go in and find that they are average
at best. I have been to places with 95% positive ratings on Urban Spoon and
walked away very disappointed in the quality of the food. I have seen fast
food restaurants like KFC and Taco Bell with 9x% ratings on Urban Spoon.
Meanwhile I have went to places with a 60% to 70% rating and the food has been
out of this world.

When those sites where small, unknown and mainly frequented by foodies, it
seemed like the quality of the ratings where much better, now they are little
guarantee of quality. Now days, I really only use them to tell me what is
around and to weed out the really bad joints. If a place is below 50% positive
review I avoid it above it and it is a crap shoot.

The problem is people go out for dining experiences for a variety of reasons
and they rate a restaurant for all those varieties. Being a foodie, I could
care less about anything but the taste of the food. If it has the explosion of
flavor I am looking for, I don't care if I am eating it on a paper plate in a
plastic chair. Ambiance has no value to me where others it does. The demeanor
of the wait staff has no value to me (other than the amount they will be
tipped) where others it does.

They really need multiple flags on these sites so that people can rate the
different aspects accordingly (I have not been on Yelp in a log time, so
forgive me if this has been done). For me the only flag that counts is quality
of food the rest of the weight being put into the positive and negative rating
is just noise for me. While others may value something totally different and
want to see the ratings weighted based on that.

These sites are a great start, but they have a long way to go, before that can
seat you at the table you want to be at, with any degree of accuracy. The only
value I have found is that they prevent you from ending up in a place that is
really really bad. Then again Taco Bell has 9x% rating in my town, so even
that is not a guarantee.

~~~
thenomad
Oddly Tripadvisor is much, much more reliable, at least for me. Where I live
(Edinburgh, Scotland) the top 10 or so restaurants listed are indeed,
uniformly, excellent quality - and all the Michelin starred places in the city
are in the top 20.

True, the Michelin places don't come right at the top, but I'd defend most of
the places that do come higher up as offering as good a dining experience
considering price and variable taste. Sometimes (often) you're just not in the
mood for a £200 tasting menu.

------
mstolpm
Sorry to hear about your experience, but to be fair, I have to admit that I
personally had just one bad experience in about 25+ visits of restaurants in
Germany and Austria due to Groupon and Daily Deals offers. That location
turned out to be overcrowded and the staff rude.

The other visits were pleasant or at least we had no complaints afterwards. We
DID go back to some of the restaurants (even without coupons) and recommended
some to friends. Some others aren't really nearby, so we might not visit them
again, but I'd recommend them as well.

However, I first google for reviews of the restaurants/companies before buying
a deal. I'd not buy a deal for a restaurant with no or only mediocre reviews.
And I present my coupon before ordering - that would have saved you from the
bad experience with the first bottle of wine.

Of course, it greatly depends on the restaurant. If they don't plan the
Groupon project, they may get overrun shortly after the deal. And the tip
problem is already mentioned - so staff isn't always glad about "deals
customers." I've even heard discussions with "deals customers" on a neighbor
table that insisted of getting money back because their bill was lower than
the deal.

Worst I experienced was not with a restaurant but a deal for a walking tour.
The company was totally overbooked, promised to provide more dates for tours,
but never delivered. Even 6 weeks after the deal, customer service turned out
to be great and refunded the deal promptly.

A friend of mine bought a deal from a small photo studio (90% discount) - and
yet (about 5 months after the deal) waits for a confirmation for an
appointment: "We are fully booked until at least end of next month."
Hopefully, the studio will be still in business at the time he gets an
appointment (or he gets a full refund).

Its not Groupon or Daily Deal to blame for bad experience, but the business
owner. But due to the growing popularity of the deals, places are more likely
to get crowded after a deal. And because Groupon and co think that "the more,
the better", they approach businesses as well that don't deliver great service
all the time or are just unable to handle the amount of deals sold.

------
chrislomax
I think Groupon suits the purpose if you would be visiting a restaurant that
has a usually high amount of coupons or vouchers changing hands. Here in the
UK if Franky & Bennys offered the coupon I don't think I would think twice. I
think also if it was for somewhere I frequented often and I know the standard
of food is good then I would do also.

We had a situation earlier this year with a voucher where the terms were not
fully explained, we went to Manchester (England) and sat down in a restaurant
called Giraffes. The voucher did not explain that it could not be used before
7pm. It was 1 in the afternoon, I sat there regardless and continued to be
ripped out (£8.50 for a breakfast, cheapest thing on menu) and in total paid
£40 for some dinner.

In terms of tipping, I generally leave a tip if around 10%, more if the person
waiting is really good and a good personality, less if I think they are over
acting it to get a higher tip. They don't get anything if the food is crap or
over priced. I don't think I have been anywhere recently where I have not used
a voucher or coupon, it's not because I am tight, it's simply because they are
there. I don't consider myself a bad tipper either.

I know what you mean though about feeling bad about using vouchers or coupons,
I feel slightly guilty about it. I think the English culture is slightly
different though, I think we don't like confrontation and I feel this goes
into that realm.

Stick to voucher cloud, check the terms though properly before sitting down!

~~~
contactdick
That's very true, though if you only go to places you know and trust then
Groupon isn't doing it's job for the restaurant! They're simply giving a
discount to loyal customers.

~~~
chrislomax
Well I generally only deviate from the restaurants I visit when I have done
the entire menu. I try to try everything on a menu then I try a different
place. I guess the model doesn't really work for me, I wouldn't generally try
somewhere different unless I have seen the place and I wanted to try there
anyway.

I guess that's me though, everyone is different. I have been stung too many
times in the past with bad meals and I am probably the fussiest customer you
will find. If I had been going to a place for years and they started serving
bad meals, I wouldn't think twice about not going there again. I don't
generally complain about a meal, not going there again is good enough for me.

I like the insight into the Groupon experience as a whole though, this is
probably what would happen to me so I'm glad I had never taken the plunge.

------
padmanabhan01
Restaurants should either not go for Groupon. If they do, they have no
business despising Groupon customers. Doing that makes no sense. It is they
who decided to go for it in the first place.

~~~
contactdick
Absolutely. But I think there is a disconnect raganwald points out between the
owners / managers who had the idea of going to groupon and the staff who feel
it's effects.

~~~
r00fus
Ultimately, Groupon needs to understand this and work this into their sales
script/recipe so new restaurants/customers can prepare for the Groupon event.

However, they may be too busy preparing for IPO so the investors "get paid".

------
rsheridan6
I've used Groupon several times, and I've never had an experience like that. I
don't get the feeling that I've been treated differently or badly after
showing the Groupon.

>Bad restaurants use Groupon because they have to - and any place that can
discount so much for their customers makes me question how ridiculous their
prices are to start.

In my experience, the restaurants that use Groupon are mediocre to good. Maybe
it's a regional thing, but there are so many restaurants here that even many
good restaurants aren't very busy.

------
daimyoyo
What this restaurant didn't seem to understand is the fact that groupon is
like any other promotion. It's a loss leader that brings in new business.
Perhaps the groupon customers wouldn't have been so bratty if the deal had
been worded better, but who knows. The thing is that places like restaurants
rely on repeat business and word of mouth as their primary sources of
customers, and that's what groupon is designed to bring. I think the fault
here is not in groupon's hands but the restauranteur.

------
vaksel
that's pretty much the main reason I don't use Groupon etc, if you are so
desperate as to use a groupon to promote your business and get raped with all
those fees, then chances are the quality of the service will be extremely
subpar.

that's why pretty much the only coupon I ever bought was for Amazon.=

~~~
jonknee
And the Amazon promotion was from LivingSocial, not Groupon.

~~~
kelsin
Yep, it's the only Group/LivingSocial deal I've done as well :)

------
palebluedot
The whole point of a business (especially restaurant) using Groupon is to gain
a repeat customer base. To that end, it would make more sense to give better
than normal service to the 'cheap' Grouponers.

For a restaurant, what will cause people to come back is quality & service -
so if you are outlaying cash (via discounts) to gain customers, you would
think you would go out of your way to gain a repeat customer.

Perhaps this is more of an education for the wait staff, and perhaps the
restaurant owners should realize the people using a coupon may not tip well,
and make up some of the difference for the wait staff - and emphasis the
importance of converting them through service & quality to be repeat
customers.

Otherwise - why would the owners do the Groupon at all?

------
puttsmcfadden
I had a very similar experience at an Indian restaurant in Salt Lake City.
Once the server became aware we had a Groupon we were treated poorly. Since
that experience, I have resisted the urge to use Groupons as I would like to
avoid being treated as an inferior.

~~~
contactdick
Something close to 'Eat like a human' springs to mind.

------
mrjinx
Well, 1) I have had both good and bad experiences going to restaurants via
Groupon.

And 2) Groupon isn't just for restaurants... If it were then it'd be out of
business already. I've gotten Lasik for much cheaper via Groupon and also
teeth whitening.

It just so happens that restaurants try Groupons because they're already
battling the odds for staying in business.

And seriously, isn't this over 9000 times more effective than burning money on
flyers or a commercial? It gets them INTO the restaurant. From there it
depends on the restaurant to bring them back in a 2nd time with charm and
great food.

So instead of blaming gift cards, coupons or even Groupons, blame management
for not using Excel and the staff for not charming potential customers.

------
witmol
The best quote I heard was from Jon Beros, who is the general manager of
Scoopon (which is the leading Groupon equivalent in Australia): "You need to
make sure they’re treated like a first class customer, not a second class
coupon holder."

A friend of mine who owns a beauty salon says Scoopon worked with her to
ensure they have capacity to serve the customers they're predicted to get.

P.S: The reason I don't usually tip (in Australia) > we have a minimum wage
for wait staff that, on Sundays and public holidays at least, is often higher
than my hourly rate on a professional salary.

------
johninbrooklyn
I have a tipping story about Australia. I was there for two weeks on vacation
and took a taxi to the airport to leave the country. The bill came to around
$40 Australian and I had 50 Australian dollars. I told the cabbie to keep the
change. He almost wrestled me to the ground to give it back. I told him I was
leaving Australia and had no reason for 10 Australian dollars and the fees to
convert it to US dollars would take 1/2 the money. He finally kept it but I
honestly think I hurt his feelings and insulted him by making him take a tip.

------
mrchess
Same experience for me -- twice in two settings.

1) I used a Groupon at a korean restaurant in Cambridge, MA. When I went with
my friend the waitress was delighted, but once I mentioned the Groupon her
enthusiasm completely faded and she became much more rude.

2) I used another restaurant Groupon at a pizza place on Newbury St. in
Boston, MA. Ordered the pizza but once I pulled out the Groupon she had a sour
look.

I don't understand why these friggin' business do Groupon if they are just
going to assholes. Argh, just reminiscing and writing about these experiences
pisses me off.

------
cmurdock
As long as you tip based on the non-discounted total I don't see the problem.
Unfortunately many probably don't do this, which is why the waitress probably
was unhappy to see a groupon customer.

------
aaronf
I feel much more comfortable using a certificate from restaurant.com. They
automatically add 18% gratuity to your bill, so that there are no issues with
tipping. And they structure deals such that you have to spend a certain
amount, e.g. your $25 certificate requires a $35 purchase, ensuring the
business makes some money. It's perceived as a gift certificate more than a
coupon. Even better, they frequently have sales where $25 certificates are
only $2.

------
toddtimes
In the US Groupon guarantees you'll be satisfied with your experience. If you
didn't like the restaurant then tell Groupon and get your £18 back. This
restaurant sounds like they did a very bad job of designing and executing
their Groupon and it hopefully will end up costing them money and reputation.

Unless that policy isn't in place for Groupon in the UK?

<http://www.groupon.com/groupon-promise>

------
xutopia
I had the same experience with a Sushi joint in Montreal.

~~~
contactdick
Good to know it wasn't a one off.

------
bugsy
Well I was all set to sympathize, but I don't think it's necessarily unfair
that the coupon couldn't be applied to any bottle of wine on the menu.

I do think that if the point of the coupon is to attract new customers, then
it is extremely counterproductive and foolish to hide the conditions of the
coupon so that people are disappointed, and to treat customers badly for using
it. That's just bad management.

------
tomfro
While I think groupon can be very useful for some business model, especially
ones where you can control bookings and cross/up sell. I think groupon is
going to be hurt when the economy becomes bullish because fewer businesses
will be desperate for sales. I think livingsocial has a better longterm future
because of its better terms for businesses.

------
Sazzy
I had a similar situation with Living Social and a deal booked for English Tea
in London. They had tables available right up until the point I said I had a
coupon, they then told me they were fully booked, past the date of the
voucher. Complained but only ever got 1 out of the 2 vouchers purchased (at
£21 each) refunded.

------
biftek
This has nothing to do with tipping. Groupon is a flawed business model.

Consumers who are willing to pay $ for something are not going to be repeat
customers who will then pay $$$ for the same thing.

It's a modified pyramid scheme, the only people that benefit are consumers and
Groupon it self, even though they are losing money out of their asses.

------
FiddlerClamp
A note about other service industry deals on Groupon:

I've read somewhere of people buying discount coupons for services like
haircuts or aesthetics, only to find that when they call for an appointment,
couponers have longer waits than non-couponers for scheduling. That alone
makes me uneasy.

------
kayhi
Perhaps the owner could price in lower tips for those that wait on groupon
tables. Heck, you could even spin it a bit "at the end of today we will draw a
groupon voucher and the waiter gets 50 dollars that served them"

------
reduxredacted
It's interesting to me how many news articles are out lately taking a negative
tone toward Groupon. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the upcoming IPO (and
I won't be an investor based on the numbers), but I thought I'd share my
experience with Groupon, because I've never had anything close to this sort of
problem.

We had a $20 for $40 deal at a restaurant owned by a local restauranteur.
There were no restrictions other than that the Groupon couldn't be used for
the tip, which, on the Groupon indicated that the tip should be made against
the total bill because "groupon customers are good tippers" or something like
that, I found that statement kinda silly, and I just thought it was common
knowledge in the US that you _always_ tip on the pre-discount price.

The place had piqued my interest because it was nearby and it wasn't a chain
nor did it appear to be owned by one of the larger businesses that plant
unique, but rather predictable, restaurants. That's unusual around here.

There were little/no reviews of this place on Yelp and I can say with
certainty that there is no way I would have tried this place at this time were
it not for the Groupon. The restaurant was "new", which usually equates to a
long line and an unprepared kitchen staff. I have children, and frankly, when
there's an opportunity to take my bride out for a night on the town, I'm going
to go someplace that I _know_ will be good. Nothing is worse than setting up a
date, a baby-sitter, and then getting crappy food/service and overpaying for
it. Because of said baby-sitting fees, I also won't venture to a place that's
far away. I'd rather spend the money on the meal, not the college kid who sits
on my couch and watches TV while the kids sleep.

This place ended up being fantastic. It was also inexpensive even without the
Groupon. So to point #1: The only reason I went was because of the discount,
but point #2, we've already been back once and even later purchased a $50 gift
card for my dad on Father's day. I think a lot of the issues with point #2
have to do with the small business in question. We didn't have any limited
"Groupon" menu (and I wouldn't buy a deal that's structured that way ... there
would be too much of a temptation for the owner to cheapen it up if they were
having a bad Groupon experience), nor were there any alcohol limits (which is
_really_ common).

Groupon worked great, at least for me, in discovering a new local business.
We're planning yet another trip back in two weeks. My bride and I _both_ wrote
a thorough Yelp review afterward, we liked the place so much. Is it a good
value for that business or would that money have been better spent advertising
in other ways? I have no idea/that probably depends on the business. If he's
got the working capital to run at a loss for 6 months, I'm willing to bet this
place sticks around, provided the food quality doesn't change (the price could
go up substantially, and I'd still continue to eat there).

~~~
freshfunk
Thanks for this. Great to get both sides of the debate.

------
jholloway
To me, this is kind of like saying "I won't use OkCupid again because the
person I met through it was a real jerk."

------
visava
Maybe we need a site ( or a yelp feature ) where Groupon experiences are
reviewed

------
brown9-2
Next time don't mention your voucher until the end of the meal.

~~~
dagw
But then they wouldn't have gotten the discount because they'd have ordered
the 'wrong' wine.

~~~
brown9-2
They also wouldn't have received the poor service and smaller portion size
that the poster perceived having received. It's on the customer to read the
fine print of the deal and order the "right" wine, anyway.

~~~
contactdick
There was no fine print - the deal was as quoted. But you're right if we
hadn't mentioned it, the night would have been more pleasant. At least till
the end..

------
shareme
Groupon failures, opportunities:

I see several things...

1\. Businesses are not empowered the IT system of groupon should take the
grudge work out of tracking groupon deals, educating those who get a groupon
offer for business, etc. 2\. The group IT system should empower the sales
staff to be as flexible as possible in groupon deal runs.

I see is a combination of IT improvements and realizing that you are educating
3 or more distinct group s at once and the IT system has empower that
approach.

Whoever, does that will at some point reach the efficiencies Groupon needs to
reach to reach profitability as being more effective will all 3 groups means
less salesperson time per salesperson per group.

------
eurohacker
imagine a restaurant on a good Sunday where the place is crowded and
absolutely all the customers are Groupon coupon users,

the main aim of the waitresses and cooks would be to get the Groupon people -
meaning - everybody - out of the restaurant as soon as possible - that goes
against all principles of running restaurant business ..

------
vaoinwie
i think you're missing that the entire point of "tapas" restaurants is to rip
you off in the first place.

"how can we get someone to pay for their entire meal as appetizers?"

some MBA student got a good grade for that one

~~~
contactdick
I hope we can contribute at least some part of the kudos for inventing tapas
restaurants to the Spanish as well as the MBA students.

~~~
vaoinwie
i'm not referring to spain, where delicious tapas are cheap and plentiful, but
to the americanized concept where the going rate for 3 bites of food seems to
be about $7

------
mikbetk
Do you really not understand why the waitress's demeanor changed the moment
you mentioned using a coupon? Seriously?

You know wait staff live on tips right? You know that people who use coupons
are notoriously bad tippers right? There are very, very few people who feel
they got a deal so leave a bigger tip. Most leave a tip based on what they
paid, not on what the meal should have cost and people that use coupons tip at
the bottom of the scale to begin with.

~~~
frobozz
If this is the case, then as far as my reading of the story goes, upon
discovering that she was serving people who she believed would be stingy
tippers, she behaved in a way that would make even a generous tipper leave
nothing.

This seems counterintuitive.

~~~
jamesbritt
_This seems counterintuitive._

Worse, it creates the results expected, reinforcing the bias, leading to more
bad service because the worst suspicions have been "confirmed."

Now everyone is screwed.

