
Spices Have Made, and Unmade, Empires - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/t-magazine/spices.html
======
seibelj
> _In the West, we’re prone to taking what isn’t ours and acting as if we
> discovered it, conveniently forgetting its history and context._

Can any culture claim a flavor as “theirs” and get angry at other cultures for
tasting it? Such throwaway comments have been commonplace in the NYT and I
don’t understand their purpose. The whole world likes good flavor, let’s not
gatekeep it, I’d rather we unite the world through food than make it yet
another divisive force.

~~~
mapcars
How easily you equalize "get angry" with creating colonies, destroy and rule
other countries for hundreds of years. This is exactly an example of
"conveniently forgetting its history and context".

~~~
ramblerman
a) The west was not unique in this (colonizing, destruction, slavery)

b) I'm fine with mentioning this clearly, and putting it into context.

But it seems there is a desire to create some kind of original sin and appoint
that to all members of the west and it's accomplishments and start every
conversation from that context.

I don't believe we should merit or de-merit races and cultures today based on
their past, but rather look to the future and the new unified cultural world
we might create.

~~~
bobthepanda
When that context figures a good deal into why a land is poor and its former
colonial master is rich, this attitude is mostly patronizing. Particularly
when being poor means an unsafe environment, hunger and abject poverty.

When the West pays reparations is when we can act as if everyone is on equal
footing.

~~~
ramblerman
> When the West pays reparations is when we can act as if everyone is on equal
> footing.

Except we won't be. Even if the west pays trillions to Africa we won't
suddenly be equal economically. So How much? Like do you have a practical
implementation or proposal. And who do you give the money to in dictatorships?

Or what about colony refugees or descendants who now reside in the west.
Should we tax differently based on race to offset the initial sins?

How far back do you go? Reparations on a national scale is a completely
impractical idea, and will not actually aid the people you imagine.

The money would be better spent on integrating the world, creating more trade,
and indeed sending a lot of money to the old colonies. Just not under the
marker of colonial restitution, which is actually patronizing.

------
simonsarris
Great examples.

Surprised it overlooks salt, especially as it mentions "Spices were among the
first engines of globalization". The salt mines in the Salzburg ("Salt
Fortress" or "Salt Castle"!!) were operating 7000 years ago and have been a
considerable source of the areas riches, starting with the Celtic population
trading to Greeks and Romans.

Salt played a role in both the American and the French revolutions:

[https://www.ncdcr.gov/blog/2013/04/24/salt-works-
established...](https://www.ncdcr.gov/blog/2013/04/24/salt-works-established-
to-support-revolutionary-war-effort)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabelle#French_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabelle#French_Revolution)

~~~
hinkley
And Indian independence.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March)

~~~
paxys
Salt was more of a symbol in that case, similar to Tea for American
independence.

~~~
ssvss
British did buid a 1100km salt wall to effectively implement the salt tax in
India.

[https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/colonial-india-
british...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/colonial-india-british-
hedge-salt-tax)

------
spocklivelong
I'm south indian, and I routinely cook with at least 8 - 10 spices. Most
common are the whole garam masala (bay leaf, cinnamon, cloves, cardamom, black
pepper, cumin, coriander seeds, mustard and turmeric)

------
yboris
The Spice Melange ...

While cocaine, opium, and others are considered "drugs" \- they are in a
sensible sense spices too.

~~~
throwaway_tech
Opium is exactly how Alexander "the Great" kept his army marching...likely it
wasn't his original idea.

I don't know about refined cocaine, but coca leaf (either chewed or boiled as
a tea) has been part consumed by the people of the Andes for thousands of
years.

~~~
jayalpha
You can buy this in most of this countries legally.

I love coca tea and coca wine.

~~~
saiya-jin
Real coca leaves? I don't think so, whole plant is banned basically everywhere
apart from few places in South america. Unless you mean something altered that
has no real cocaine alkaloid, like drinks with marihuana 'extracts' / seeds
that contain 0% THC.

Not that I agree with this, had my share of teas and chew in Bolivia (with
what locals called 'activator', at least thats how miners did it in Potosi),
apart from local lack of sense in gum/jaw there wasn't any real effect... no
more than a regular coffee (which doesn't have any tangible effect on me, but
I enjoy the taste & ritual).

But from plant you can make cocaine, so I get the logic. Funny thing is, some
botanical gardens in Europe have the plant, not marked in any obvious way
apart from latin name. I can confirm that it contained alkaloid, the numbing
gum sensation was quite strong.

------
virtuous_signal
I never could get into history in school, but I love the idea of looking at
history through the lens of one particular item and find it more interesting.
I know of ([https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-
Years/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-
Years/dp/B015F0BBFW)). Any others that people here would recommend?

~~~
wwsculley
You would love this book: At Home by Bill Bryson ([https://www.amazon.com/At-
Home-Short-History-Private/dp/0767...](https://www.amazon.com/At-Home-Short-
History-Private/dp/0767919394))

It explores history through the lens of everyday objects in the home (even
fixtures like windows, and spaces like your foyer)

A little slow to start, but then it never stops entertaining

~~~
telesilla
Add to the list the list everything else by Bill Bryson and you'll not put
your kindle down for months.

------
scarejunba
It's funny. Using today's language to judge that time, one might say: "I can't
believe the greatest minds of our generation are focusing on making some fat
man's food taste nicer".

~~~
Jamwinner
Plenty of tech companies add no more value and are celebrted. Its all the
persuit of wealth.

------
HeWhoLurksLate
That reminds me of the fact that the Romans used lead as a sweetener in their
water, which probably didn't help them out much, either...

~~~
mc32
Do you mean they did that actively (using lead as an added sweetener)or was it
passively (by proxy though the vessels they used)?

~~~
JackRabbitSlim
They made sweet drinks by using lead vessels to store wine/vinegar with acetic
acid in it. That created lead acetate; sweet and toxic.

I'm sure it started accidentally but was continued because it magically turned
shitty sour wine into sweet wine.

A side note; we still actively use artificial sweeteners from petrochemical
sources.

~~~
Scoundreller
Dunno if lead acetate is/was sweet, or the lead just scavenged the acetic acid
that was making the wine bad.

~~~
unwind
Wikipedia[1] says:

 _Lead(II) acetate (Pb(CH3COO)2), also known as lead acetate, lead diacetate,
plumbous acetate, sugar of lead, lead sugar, salt of Saturn, or Goulard 's
powder, is a white crystalline chemical compound with a sweet taste._

So clearly (?) it would add a sweet taste, regardless of how much of the acid
was chemically consumed.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead\(II\)_acetate)

------
rtkwe
I'm always a little shocked when I remember how rare spices used to be for
much of the world. Even salt was a valuable commodity for an extremely long
time.

~~~
umvi
I'm guessing salt was only valuable for land-locked countries. Any country
with a sea could just add some sea water to their cooking to get salt

~~~
jerf
Transporting any significant quantity of sea water would have been a serious
challenge to the ancient world, even just from the shore in to the middle of a
port city. The easiest way to transport water is downhill, which, alas,
doesn't work so well if you're starting from sea level.

You can get water from the seashore just by evaporating it. It's simple,
effective, and was done. But it's a _lot_ more convenient to swing a pick and
get a chunk of salt the size of your hand, rather than secure somewhere to
evaporate off water, load it up, wait for it to evaporate, and collect it.
It's the same reason we're stuck on fossil fuels... it's not that they're the
only method we have for obtaining energy, it's just that nothing else can
compete with putting in 1 unit of energy and getting back 80 or 90.

~~~
int_19h
"For a society without trains or trucks, moving bulk materials of any kind
over long distances is extraordinarily expensive. Moving grain overland, for
instance, would cause its cost to double after 100 miles."

([https://acoup.blog/2019/07/12/collections-the-lonely-city-
pa...](https://acoup.blog/2019/07/12/collections-the-lonely-city-part-i-the-
ideal-city/))

------
quinndupont
Is nobody going to mention how beautifully it was written? Surprising
erudition and style.

------
mtarnovan
As anyone who ever played Civilization very well knows :-)

~~~
Razengan
We all play civilization.

~~~
feiss
I never played

~~~
SllX
You’re doing it now.

------
haecceity
Looks like a good argument that production drives history.

------
UI_at_80x24
Rephrased:

Humanities desire to alter the things we eat has changed the face of the
planet and affected billions of lives.

------
backtobecks
Spies also :)

------
starpilot
When you eat a dorito you are tasting more spices than the average medieval
peasant consumed in a lifetime.

~~~
pjmorris
I have a theory that dorito powder is the most sophisticated product designed
by humankind, as measured by the hours invested in its development by who
knows how many scientists and engineers. An OS kernel might have more, but I'm
not sure.

~~~
p1necone
(totally speaking out of my ass with no evidence here) I feel like there's
probably some bureaucratic enterprise software company out there that's put
more man hours into a horribly architected CRUD app than most OS kernels.

Although that was somewhat your point. Doritos are much better than CRUD apps
too.

~~~
marcosdumay
Does it gain extra points for being written in SAP and running on an Oracle
database? With a Business Objects data interface?

~~~
narag
Only if it comes with a complete set of UML diagrams, including the XKCD-style
ones.

------
HeXetic
> But Americans do [use turmeric] having suddenly and belatedly awakened to
> turmeric’s health benefits, some 3,000 years after they were first set down
> in the Atharva Veda, one of Hinduism’s foundational sacred texts.

And there goes my interest in reading the rest of the article. Why continue to
read what is supposedly a history piece if it opens with pseudoscience? How am
I supposed to trust that it's not pseudohistory as well?

cf.
[https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/43/E1270](https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/43/E1270)

~~~
dang
Please don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents. They're boring, and
we want interesting.

To get interesting, focus on what tickles curiosity rather than what triggers
rage.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
mapcars
I really wonder how come Europeans are so violent?

