

Ask YC: "Can a 40 year old, married with 3 children, start a start-up?" - whiten

I have been just watching this site for a few months now.  I even bought 'Hackers and Painters', even after reading most of the essays online!<p>I would like to know what people think of the following two points:
1) Is it best to be young as you tend to have fewer commitments etc?
2) Having little or no money, or being frugal is good. Keeps you focused!<p>I fail on the first point, but I am a winner on the second!<p>What do you think?  Should I go for it anyway?
======
nostrademons
Probably. Don't know your situation, and I'm not 40 anyway, so take everything
I say with a grain of salt.

One thing I've noticed, having worked for startups with older founders: when
you're over 35, it's to your advantage to start a different kind of company.
When you're in your early 20s, it makes sense to swing for the fences with a
new consumer idea that's wildly innovative and nobody really understands. That
way, your lack of experience isn't really a drawback ( _nobody_ knows what
they're doing, so the fact that you don't know either isn't a significant
problem) and your youthful energy lets you discover and explore the market
faster than all your older competitors. Plus, much of your peer group consists
of people who are open to new ideas and will be "growing into" your market.
You can understand them better than older folks. And you can live on less
money, which is important, because new markets usually don't involve much
cash.

When you're over 35, it makes more sense to leverage your existing experience
and network and go into a field close to your existing job - often, your first
customer will be your last employer. Start small with something you can sell
for cash, quickly, and then leverage your network to expand to other
customers. You're protected from all the young tykes because you know the
market and technology better than they do, and you fend off the big companies
by concentrating on a niche that's unprofitable for them to devote much
attention to.

This, of course, depends upon having experience and contacts to leverage. If
you spent your whole career working as a janitor, it may be pretty difficult
to start a company, unless you've discovered a new more efficient way to mop
floors. But if you've spent your whole career as a sysadmin, it makes a lot of
sense to build server administration software that does your job, only better.

~~~
keating
Your 35 cutoff seems ridiculously arbitrary and ageist.

If anything, more experience means more exposure to more ideas and thus gives
you an advantage in coming up with something innovative. There is more cross-
pollination.

This is a function of time and effort and so only loosely correlated with age.

~~~
michaelneale
Also, hopefully, more money/financial security with a bit of age. I am nearly
34, own own house, car, etc etc... nice to have that bit of security. But I
guess in big cities you are a wage slave for a long long time, so its a harder
jump to make.

~~~
keating
If you don't own them outright then your financial obligations actually give
you less freedom. When you have nothing to lose, that's when you swing for the
fences.

~~~
michaelneale
own == own outright. Otherwise the bank owns them in reality !

Swing for fences means "take a chance" I assume ?

------
clintavo
Whiten,

You can definitely do it. My story might help encourage you a bit.

Being a bit older when you start your business _can_ work to your advantage.
The reason? You've probably had time to work in another field and see real-
world needs in some particular niche. These would be unmet needs that recent
graduates _might_ not be able to see. The younger guys do amazing things that
blow my mind, but there are tons of opportunities that are overlooked because
they are smaller (but still HIGHLY profitable) demographics that don't entice
those who want to "change the world."

(I started writing this and then notice that nostrademons made virtually the
same point, so I just want to "second" what nostrademons said.)

In my particular case, I worked at an art gallery and over the course of a
decade learned the art business inside and out. I now have connections
throughout the art industry. About seven years ago, I got the idea to build a
little web application helps painters build websites and market their artwork
online.

(BTW - I have been astounded at the similarities I, as an aspiring hacker,
have with my painter customers, and just within the past few months I've
learned of PG's book "Hackers and Painters.")

At first, I only had 5-6 hours ONE DAY A WEEK to devote to developing the
application. I had to learn everything. I hadn't programmed seriously in over
a decade, so progress was very slow at first. Still, within two months I had
my first customer.

I continued to build the application following my one-day-a-week schedule for
years. I wasn't willing to give up my job income, so I just kept my little web
application going on the side and spent roughly 5 hours a week improving it on
my days off.

At the end of year one I had 30 customers. At the end of year 2 I had 60. Year
3? 120 customers (see a pattern?). At the end of year 4 I had 240 customers
and finally had the courage to go full-time.

That was three years ago and today I have 2,000 customers - enough to provide
a good income for me and my employees . . . and still growing. And I finally
get do do what all hackers want to do...code! I now code at least five hours a
day (although when my wife is out of town, that number balloons to 36 hour
marathons, BTW - thank God you have a wife.....it forces you to have a life
too).

I highly respect the 37 Signals crew and I agree with them: Don't focus on
building a STARTUP, focus on building a BUSINESS.

If there is a niche or industry that you have deep knowledge of....that will
help you as nostrademons said above. You will have knowledge and hopefully,
connections. It generally puts you in a situation where you have much less
competition. And even the competition you do have isn't likely to be as
knowledgeable about your customers' needs as you are. In my situation, I
generally know how artists need to market their artwork better than they do
(and providing that help to them is part of our service).

Is this route slower? Yes. Is it safer? Of course. But, it my case, I couldn't
afford to simply quit my job, so it was the only route possible.

When I started I wasn't really even planning on it to become a full time
venture, so chances are, you could start on the side and get profitable in a
fraction of the time it took me. I knew nothing about building an online
company. The fact that you are following and posting on "Hacker News" shows
that you light-years ahead of where I was when I started out.

~~~
jimbokun
"(BTW - I have been astounded at the similarities I, as an aspiring hacker,
have with my painter customers, and just within the past few months I've
learned of PG's book "Hackers and Painters.")"

And the fact that the original idea that pg and Robert Morris had for an
online business was an online art gallery.

~~~
clintavo
Yeah, I've really enjoyed reading PG's essays, especially "How Art Can Be
Good". I wish I could get all of my artist customers to read that one.

I think their original idea was actually a web app/site builder for existing
art galleries not an online art gallery that they would run.

------
kyro
Yes, of course you can.

Sure, being younger allows for more time, but I'd imagine being that age has
given you some maturity in handling finances, emotions, etc. I'm sure you'll
have to make some sacrifices seeing that you have many commitments and
responsibilities, but if it's something you truly want to do, go for it.

At the very least, you'll enjoy the ride, and when things get tough, you'll
have your wife and children to find happiness in. And if you're successful,
great. Either way, it'll be a journey that I'm sure you wouldn't want to
regret never taking down the line.

~~~
noel_gomez
I am in the same boat. This year I will turn 35 and have not yet started
anything. I think fear has something to do with it and the other is finding
the technical talent to help bring ideas to fruition. I am pretty sure that
having had work experience will definitely be beneficial.

As far as having a family to support goes, I have 2 kids and I am pretty sure
I can't leave my job even though my wife works. That just means I would have
to do something part time, which in the end may be better. I read an article
where an entrepreneur spoke about the fact that founders will put a lot of
energy into their startup and not develop a balanced life from the outset.
That only puts you in a mode where work will always consume a lot of your time
and you will not be able to break that cycle. At least if you work 2 jobs for
a short period of time, you know at some point you will quit one of them.

------
projectileboy
My dad did. I was the third of three and one year old when my dad started a
business to manufacture a high-quality version of a (then) novel electric
motor which he designed and patented. He and his partner built the company to
about 50 employees and then sold the business to a large industrial
conglomerate a few years later.

I'm now 36, happily married with three kids of my own. I'm bgeinning something
along the 37 Signals route - 10 hours a week until I have critical mass.

Overall, I must grudgingly admit that youth has the advantage, so I think us
oldsters have to leverage the advantages we _do_ have - experience, money and
connections.

~~~
whiten
Thank-you and good luck.

My father also started a business (furniture manufacturer!), way back in 1977,
when I was only 9.

What I have noticed is that the phrase over here (in England - maybe applies
in the US), 'You only get out what you put in'.

~~~
fugue88
The US version might be "you reap what you sow," which I like because crops
produce more than what they were planted with.

Pick a venture that lets you get out more than you put in, eh?

~~~
daniel-cussen
Of course you reap more biomass than you sow. It's what sets farmers apart
from squirrels (sort of).

"Reap what you sow" means you get output proportional to input. You'll get
more biomass, but you won't get more plants than the amount of seeds you
planted.

------
blender
Would highly recommend you read Barry Moltz's: "You Need to be a Little
Crazy":

[http://www.amazon.com/You-Need-Be-Little-
Crazy/dp/079318018X...](http://www.amazon.com/You-Need-Be-Little-
Crazy/dp/079318018X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210888013&sr=8-1)

I'm 39.5 with 3 kids and working at my 3rd startup. You make sacrifices and
I'd be lying if I said my marriage hasn't been strained at times mostly due to
financial worries.

It really comes down to this:

“If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If
you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy
you.”

You have to bring it forth!

Cheers

~~~
gruseom
_If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If
you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy
you._

Wow, a quote from the Gnostic gospels. Very cool. Here is another:

 _His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How
shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?" Jesus said,
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate."_

I've often thought of that when I was in work situations where I really did
not want to be.

~~~
whiten
And what did you do?

~~~
gruseom
I exchanged the situation for one that involved telling fewer lies and doing
less of what I hate.

~~~
whiten
Does that mean you still tell lies and sometimes do things you hate? :)

------
noonespecial
As a start-upper with wife and kids I have some perspective to add. Our
startup essentially began on the day my first child was born. I was running
back and forth between the hospital and a pair of sales offices arranging a
demo for our first large corporate client. We did land the contract, I was
there for the birth of my son. It was the most stressful day I've ever had.

Here's the advice: _Its not just you starting the startup._

If I had a different kind of wife, someone timid, fearful or unwilling to
adjust from a standard of living to which she had become accustomed, my
startup would have been impossible.

Your wife has to have the bug as well even if shes not directly involved. If
instead you get a "whatever you want dear as long as we still have enough
money for X (soccer, preschool, shoe-shopping, cabletv... whatever), _you are
already done._

The two of you can do it together. You can't do it alone. The bright side?
You've already got your co-founder. That might also be the downside.

------
blogimus
You can ask yourself this, "Do you regret more the things you have wanted to
do and have not done or regret more the things you have done and wished you
didn't?"

If you want more motivation, look on the web for older people who started
businesses.

------
pstuart
I hope so. I'm in the same boat (plus a couple years) and have my sights set
on doing a startup as well.

That said, I wish I had pursued this 20 years ago when I had more time,
energy, and freedom -- but I guess I wasn't ready then.

~~~
whiten
I appreciate the response.

Can I ask what you are doing about it?

~~~
pstuart
Right now I'm actually focusing on getting a new job (laid off just recently).
I have a potential partner (same age/situation) who is not a hacker but would
be a good compliment to my skillset.

I have a vision for a product that would hopefully rock the project management
landscape. If only I had 6 months locked with a fellow coder... I'll have to
settle for a couple hours a day trying to make a convincing demo to sell the
dream.

------
abstractbill
A good friend of mine did a successful startup (acquired by AOL for about
$50MM a couple of years back) when he was 40, with a wife and two kids. Go for
it.

Here's a video of him giving us some startup advice at justin.tv:
[http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/58652/Tech_Talk__3_Adam_Beguel...](http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/58652/Tech_Talk__3_Adam_Beguelin_Truveocom)

------
jalam1001
Sure you can. Here is a write up that shows that most of the startups are done
by older educated people.

[http://randomthougts101.blogspot.com/2008/05/education-
and-t...](http://randomthougts101.blogspot.com/2008/05/education-and-tech-
entreprenuer.html)

The young college drop outs starting extremely successful companies is an
exception not a rule.

------
papa
Go for it!!! Don't let anyone tell you that you are too old to do it.

I'm 36 - over-the-hill by startup standards ;-) - am married and have 2 kids.

The biggest issue to overcome is fear and losing the corporate
financial/benefits lifeline (significant obstacles when you have kids).

But honestly, if you can handle kids you can handle a startup. I work all day
while my kids are in school and then after they're asleep, I work more. The
startup is kinda like another kid. It ain't easy and I won't deny the younger
startup founder will have more energy and time. But don't forget that quality
of time is a big, big factor! And if you LOVE what you're doing, tinkering on
your product/business/whatever won't feel like work (even when it's consuming
every waking hour that you're not dealing with the spouse or with the kids).

Feel free to ping me if you ever want to chat about it!

------
gibsonf1
I'm 42 with a 4 year old daughter and doing it. It was very painful until we
got our app functional as using the app itself helped me get a lot more done
in less time. The most important thing is to have sufficient money to take the
plunge - I ended up selling all my art and my yacht to keep going through the
hard period.

------
theoneill
Can your kids hack?

------
ujj
I think age really is an important factor in starting business and it works to
ones advantage depending on the kind of business as well. For starters, I
don't think there is any substitute for experience and like kyro said, it also
gives one a certain level of maturity in dealing with issues like finances and
emotions. Especially family, which tends to get ignored (to say the least) if
you are a twenty something hacker working 28X6 in your mum's garage.

I have personally felt a little off balance seeing people lose color when they
see me in person. Since my business requires a lot of off line interaction
with people, they generally become a little wary on seeing someone in tees and
jeans. If you are going for such a business, your age, and more importantly
your maturity will be your biggest asset.

------
newsvend
er.. I am 47 with three little ones and started a new business last year. It
has started fantastically, and there is no way it will fall over, recession or
no recession, with all the general business experience I have picked up over
the years. Not to mention confidence. Have some of mine.

------
bigtoga
Money and time are huge things here that we have no data on. 1) Do you have
enough money saved up to support your family for two years _and_ to support
the launch + operation of your idea? If not, then no problem - just do it
part-time for 2-3 years until you can go full-time.

2) Are you willing to commit 20 hours a week part-time or 60 hours a week full
time? If "No" to whichever is appropriate then I'd say that you would find it
difficult to succeed regardless of other circumstances.

Best of luck to you!

------
aditya
Sure - this guy did:
[http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2006/10/introducing_out.h...](http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2006/10/introducing_out.html)

------
jwynia
The average age for a company founder in the United States is ... 39. That
means there are plenty both above and below that age.

------
dennykmiu
Does your wife work? If yes, may be. If no, forget it.

I am 52 with two kids and I have been doing startups for the last 15 years.
You need support from your family and you need good health. It is hard for the
family to support you emotionally unless they are financially secured.

~~~
edw519
"good health"

Thanks for mentioning this. People don't normally think of their health until
they lose it. It's so important that I'd represent it like this...

Probability of success = (a + b + c + ... + z) * health

~~~
dennykmiu
The best advice that I ever received regarding startups is that one needs to
think in terms of a three-legged stool, with one leg being our family, one leg
being our health and the last one being our career. If two are firm on the
ground, we have a fighting chance fixing the third. Otherwise, forget it.

------
brentr
I respond with a simple question: Are you alive?

I am not trying to be rude, overly simple, or anything else that may be viewed
as a negative response. I am simply trying to clear away all of the clutter.

~~~
whiten
Yes - I believe I am!

Could you expand/clarify a little?

~~~
brentr
If you are alive, then you have the ability to sit down and pursue this.
Failure versus success is a completely different argument.

EDIT: What I am trying to get is across is this--the only thing that would be
stopping you is you. Who cares if you are beyond are a certain age?

------
edw519
Age, marital status, and personal situation have much less to do with it than
you may think.

Removing the word "fail" from you vocabulary have much _more_ to do with it
than you think.

Go for it!

~~~
whiten
Are you suggesting that the 'fear of failure' is a major reason why people
don't make the leap?

I have to say, I think you are correct.

Fear of failure is HUGE.

Imagine if I had a fear of failure.... what could be the outcome?

1) Leave current job (it pays the bills etc.) 2) Start new venture 3) Fail! (I
have deliberately shortcut the possible reasons - so bear with me!) 4) No
money comes in.... 5) Can't pay bills..... 6) Lose home etc etc

I believe the people who study this type of thought process would call it the
Domesday scenario!

I guess success would be called the 'Google scenario'!?

I can't remove the word fail from my vocabulary - just try and make succeed
more likely - how?

~~~
edw519
"I can't remove the word fail from my vocabulary"

You could start by removing the word "can't" from your vocabulary.

~~~
whiten
Are 'fail' and 'can't' words in your vocabulary?

I assume so, as you clearly understand my comments.

Something more thoughtful would help! ;)

~~~
nostrademons
I can't speak for Ed, but "fail" and "can't" are still very much words in my
vocabulary, and I worry almost daily that we can't build the product we'd want
to use and will fail in the market. Maybe that's a problem for me. It does
seem to be a negative when talking to people about my startup; they pick up
cracks in the facade of perfect confidence fairly often.

But I don't want to be blindsided by potential problems; I want to catch them
as quickly as possible so they can be fixed. My role in the startup has always
been the engineer, and as an engineer, it's my job to be pessimistic. (I used
to have a business-type cofounder who was much more gung-ho, but he left for
B-school, and now I've gotta do both. Concentrating on the product first...)

One of my favorite quotes, though, is:

"Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is being afraid and doing what
you have to do anyway."

I'd much rather imagine everything that can go wrong now than be blindsided by
it later.

~~~
whiten
One of the few people I have respect for in my career had a phase for this
regarding the progress of projects, and I think it applies to start-ups in the
sense that sometimes people are blinkered about what they are doing and that
is this:

"Disappoint early"

In other words, as soon as you are aware of a problem - Raise it. And then
discuss it and work it out.

------
wlievens
You're married with 3 children? Is that LEGAL?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

People start up businesses at all ages in other sectors, I don't see why one
couldn't for our tech industry.

------
rfnock
Be sure your wife is on board all the way. Starting a startup is more
difficult than you think and will take longer than you expect. It will be her
journey as well.

------
chrysb
Yes, if you want to spend no time on the wife the the three children.

It's never too late, but you need to lift anchor and set sail!

------
bmaier
Can a dog with 3 legs walk? Yeah, but its more difficult than if it had 4
legs.

~~~
whiten
Why? - surely it's more efficient, and should therefore be encouraged!

------
maxklein
It's called starting a company. People do it all the time.

------
johnnygekko
you set your limits on your own mind, just be equally idealistic as realistic.

------
white
If you are waiting for other people to give you an answer, you're probably not
ready, yet, despite on your age and life experience.

~~~
whiten
I am not.

Just trying to get people thinking.

Thanks anyway.

------
len
NO! You have already failed by the fact that you need to ask the question.

If you need someone else to convince you to do a startup you are in the wrong
game.

~~~
whiten
A fair point!

Actually what I was attempting here was to try and question the thinking
behind when we can and can't do things that we wish to do.

I don't need anyone to convince me, I was trying to challenge the general
perceptions of when you can start a start-up.

I never think a question is a 'stupid question', and I also don't think asking
a question is a failure.

~~~
fugue88
"... I was trying to challenge the general perceptions of when you can start a
start-up."

I prefer to think in terms of "personal industry" rather than "startup."
Personal industry used to be the normal case, with people building their own
house, planting their own fields, and so on. I think it's rather odd and sad
that so many of us get caught up in corporate life. I have more feelings about
this, but am having trouble articulating them

Anyway, to answer the when?: Until I'm so old and decrepit that my children
are taking care of me.

