

It should be easier for me to give mice brain tumors. - pacohn
http://hubski.com/pub?id=749

======
jaysonelliot
Perhaps if the bio community had been better about treating animals humanely
when they weren't being watched, you wouldn't be subjected to so many rules
now.

There are many inhumane things done to animals outside of the lab. Does that
mean that we should work to reduce the cruelty of things like glue traps, or
that we should increase the cruelty of animal research?

I'm sorry that you have to fill out a lot of paperwork if you want to inflict
deliberate pain and suffering on a living creature.

The ethical questions raised by animal experimentation are a well-trodden
debate, and I suspect that you have spent enough time listening to, perhaps
even engaging in them, not to rehash them here.

We need medical advancements for humans, and sometimes that requires animal
testing. That may be, but we also need to advance in our ethics and morals
while we advance in our technology.

"You can judge a society by how they treat their weakest members."

~~~
Mz
_"You can judge a society by how they treat their weakest members."_

In the US, child protection laws were modeled on previously created animal
rights laws.

------
cperciva
If you think this is bad, try doing something involving humans. Want to have
people go to a website and fill out a survey? If you're a university
researcher, be prepared for 20 pages of paperwork and a 6 month delay while a
research ethics committee considers your application.

Unless you find a way to hack the process, of course. In one case I know, the
surveyees were signed on as co-investigators, in order to take advantage of a
loophole allowing researchers to do research on themselves without ethics
approval.

------
pumpmylemma
I wonder if their are any BioHackers out there that actually try to do this
type of work. (Anyone?) I'm not one of them, but I've always had the
impression they play more with bacteria than complex organisms. I think cost
and accessibility are probably prohibitive to the garage biohacker, but would
a very motivated biohacker have the advantage of not answering to an IRB?

~~~
Mz
I guess you could call me a "biohacker". I don't work on mice, I work on
myself. I was diagnosed just under 10 years ago with "atypical cystic
fibrosis" and, after a lifetime of being treated like a hypochondriac,
promptly informed that "people like you don't get well". Having no other real
choice, since doctors clearly had no plans to really help me get well, I began
working on issues myself (and gradually began seeing results to a degree I
never expected). My doctor expressed zero interest in how I was miraculously
getting better. I get to "break" rules or make up rules as I see fit and that
is, in fact, part of why I have made such astonishing progress.

FWIW:

Spent most of my life too sick to hold down a job and hid behind the label
"homemaker and full time mom".

Spent about 3.5 months bedridden.

Diagnosed in May 2001 with "atypical cystic fibrosis".

Summer 2002: While attending GIS school in the smoggy LA area, got on
boatloads of medication that doctors would not give me when I was bedridden
and had no diagnosis. This helped save my life but left me a mess.

Spent the next several years getting off the drugs.

Antibiotic-free for something over 7 years (iirc).

Medication free since sometime in summer/fall of 2009.

Generally treated like a nutcase by the CF community which can't admit their
real problem with me is they firmly believe the mantra "people like you don't
get well" while simultaneously raising tens of thousands of dollars for the CF
foundation and chanting "let CF stand for 'cure found'".

~~~
pumpmylemma
What you described is becoming much more common. I still have concerns, but
I'm excited by the promise of websites like <http://patientslikeme.com>

(Disclaimer: I'm actually starting an HN-like website for rare disease people
in a week or two; I had (or have) a rare type of cancer called Chordoma.)

~~~
Mz
_I'm actually starting an HN-like website for rare disease people in a week or
two_

My contact info is in my profile. I would love to know when this is up.

------
Udo
It should be harder for you to post this on HN.

~~~
pacohn
Why? Am I missing something?

~~~
Udo
I believe this is not relevant to most hackers, except if they happen to be
bio researchers. Worse yet, while being mostly irrelevant, it's also a barely
disguised flamebait piece designed to incite a fruitless ethics debate. This
should be posted somewhere else.

And I don't care how many downvotes I get either; the guys who where
complaining about the increasing lack of focus on HN earlier today were right.

~~~
pacohn
Thanks for the answer. Personally, I don't see it so much as flamebait as an
interesting issue. Even so, as long as people remain civil, I think
discussions of conflicting viewpoints can be very valuable.

I had the impression that HN was for broad content, as long as it was
intellectually stimulating. However, based on this recent post about the
decline of HN: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696> I get the feeling
that there are conflicting communities here.

Perhaps you are right. This is my second post. I am feeling conflicted,
actually.

~~~
Udo
I'm obviously mistaken, otherwise the thread wouldn't have received so many
positive votes. In fact, I apologize, it's me who apparently lost the plot. I
bow to the majority opinion.

> _I get the feeling that there are conflicting communities here._

Maybe, though that matter seems to be resolving itself on its own currently.

> _Personally, I don't see it so much as flamebait as an interesting issue_

Science research should be held to a higher standard, it shouldn't be compared
to household rat catching. This shouldn't be thought-provoking at all. It's a
case of apples and oranges. It's also borderline politics.

~~~
pacohn
>> I get the feeling that there are conflicting communities here. >Maybe,
though that matter seems to be resolving itself on its own currently.

Well I think HN grew due to the hacker community. After reading some in the
post I linked. I am thinking that it might not be right that it be hijacked. I
was a big Redditor and felt driven away somewhat recently. I guess this is all
tangential, but no offense taken. Best.

