
Need More Self-Control? Try a Simple Ritual - yarapavan
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/need-more-self-control-try-a-simple-ritual/
======
jamii
Let's look at the first experiment.

[http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/Enacting%20Ri...](http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/Enacting%20Rituals%20to%20Improve%20Self-
Control_a1680de9-d84b-44c6-8db0-01d05f77c2c3.pdf)

Voluntary enrollment, knowing in advance that they have to do this stupid
ritual. ~10% dropped out, and another ~20% didn't fill out their food diaries
properly. That's selecting for discipline.

Relied on self-reported food diaries ie opening room for placebo effect and/or
guilt-motivated lying.

Only lasted 5 days. Pretty much every dietary intervention works for short
periods of time.

Relies on calorie-counting, which is wildly inaccurate.

Finally:

> Despite the effectiveness of rituals, participants tended to think the
> ritual was not very helpful and reported being unlikely to continue it.

I think it's pretty plausible that rituals can have useful effects on
behavior, but I don't think experiments like this tell us anything about it,
especially once you add in the effects of publication bias etc.

Comes back to
[http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.392...](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.392.6447&rep=rep1&type=pdf)

> Null hypothesis testing of correlational predictions from weak substantive
> theories in soft psychology is subject to the influence of ten obfuscating
> factors whose effects are usually (1) sizeable, (2) opposed, (3) variable,
> and (4) unknown. The net epistemic effect of these ten obfuscating
> influences is that the usual research literature review is well-nigh
> uninterpretable.

~~~
bmer
> Relies on calorie-counting, which is wildly inaccurate.

Some sources on this? (not that I doubt you, it's just that you probably have
better references than a quick search might bring up)

Also, if it's inaccurate, what's the alternative?

~~~
jamii
People are really bad at estimating portion sizes -
[https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-
abstract/35/4/727/4812...](https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-
abstract/35/4/727/4812565)

Calories in food vary depending on how it is prepared -
[https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/5283945/Carmody_...](https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/5283945/Carmody_Wrangham_JHE.pdf?sequence=2&origin=publication_detail)

Calories reported on food labels are often incorrect, because we digest some
foods poorly and (because food companies are allowed to use multiple methods
and report whichever result suits them best) -
[http://www2.centralcatholichs.com/copied%20articles%20to%20r...](http://www2.centralcatholichs.com/copied%20articles%20to%20review/physiology/calorie%20science%20SA%20sep%2013.pdf)

Individual calorie absorption varies between people depending on gut biome -
[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Heymsfield/publi...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Heymsfield/publication/51818090_Individual_differences_in_apparent_energy_digestibility_are_larger_than_generally_recognized/links/0c96053065a203c368000000/Individual-
differences-in-apparent-energy-digestibility-are-larger-than-generally-
recognized.pdf)

> Also, if it's inaccurate, what's the alternative?

Depends on what you're doing with it. For dieting, counting calories is
probably better than not counting calories [citation needed].

For a non-preregistered non-blinded experiment testing an intervention with
small effect sizes on a measure where people are known to be bad at self-
reporting, well, you're already screwed. There are more direct methods of
measurement (eg
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK233774/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK233774/))
but they are costly.

------
athenot
> So, we reasoned, when we see ourselves engaging in a ritual, we code that
> behavior as a sign that we are people with self-control. And thanks to that
> self-control, we choose the apple (or carrot) over the chocolate and thus
> reduce our caloric intake.

This is interesting. If I'm understanding the article, the path to _applying_
self-control is to first start _viewing_ ourselves as someone who has self-
control. The ritual is merely a trigger to remind ourselves of the _identity_
we've chosen, and then subconsciously we tend to line up our actions with how
we view ourselves.

~~~
StavrosK
Or maybe it just makes you more aware that you're about to eat something, and
instead of mindlessly swallowing that snack you engage the decision-making
part of the brain, which leads to actually making the eating a decision,
rather than an impulse.

~~~
addicted
That seems to be part of it since the random gestures group also exhibited
better self control than the control “no requirements” group. But the group
with an established ritual exhibited even more self control indicating that
having a fixed ritual adds something beyond what can be achieved through
actions that are random.

------
kaycebasques
In a Philosophize This! podcast on Kant I learned that he was extremely
consistent in his routines. Every day he would walk at the same time, eat at
the same time, etc. Not exactly the same as rituals, but it finally got me to
consider that perhaps consistent routines every day would help me essentially
slip into other creative, productive habits via auto-pilot.

~~~
agumonkey
If you approach life as a physical system, regular rhythm is the most
efficient way to save energy and avoid wearing. Predictable flow is probably
very nice on your mind, body and ultimately everything else. And it seems
biology tuned us to a lot of external rhythms too. Sun, seasons. I think using
every period the best : day to move and work, night to sleep. It seems stupid
but I think you end up leveraging a lot of builtins subsystems in you.

~~~
citrablue
As a counterpoint, biological systems grow stronger when stressed then allowed
to recover.

Routines are great when interspersed with periods of non-breaking stress.
Growth is dependent on stress _.

_ I refer to a more general term of stress, not necessarily psychological.
Although the latter can make you a stronger/more empathetic person; the danger
is in not being able to let go of them for the restoration/growth period.

~~~
agumonkey
totally, and I recently learned biology has a name for it: hormesis. I use to
borrow Taleb's coined antifragile term.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis)

We all know that we need stress/efforts to stay in shape (the weak bones of
astronauts being a nice example). And it's indeed baked in us.

And by rhythm I didn't mean stress free. I meant having clear periods of a
certain kind of stress (or the opposite). Basically, stress your system with
all the subsystems ready for it, then allow them to rest in an appropriate
context.

As a young adult (remains of teen spirit I guess) I prefered to attack
everything at once in parallel. But when things get too complex I realized the
value of going depth rather than breadth first. It's related, you do one thing
fully, then stop entirely, instead of constantly feeding small amount of
stress and never large enough amount of rest.

~~~
citrablue
Agreed, what you say reflects my own growth as I've gotten older. I'm hesitant
to call it wisdom, but it's served me better than the outlook from my youth.

------
rossdavidh
My first thought on reading this, was to revisit the idea of praying before
eating. It would be hard to get an experiment on this past the review board,
perhaps, but one wonders if praying before eating would work differently for
atheist vs. religious dieters.

Also, I note that even though the (intentionally senseless) ritual helped
reduce calories eaten, the people who used it did not think it helped and said
they were unlikely to continue it. If it was part of your religious belief,
one assumes you would be more likely to think it was important to continue.

~~~
athenot
For me the praying before a meal instills not only a sense of gratitude
(disclaimer: Catholic here) but also appreciation and respect of the food
itself. Even if it's something bland or otherwise uninteresting, I try to
appreciate it for what it is, and savor it as much as possible instead of
gobbling it up as fast as possible.

I think this would still be applicable outside of a religious context. You
don't necessarily need to pray if that's not how your belief works, but you
can still have this savoring appreciation of food, and codify that as a
conscious moment where you briefly reflect on it before diving into it.

~~~
Ntrails
> respect of the food itself

why? It's fuel. I don't take a moment to respect the water I drink, or the bed
that lets me sleep. Irrespective of belief it's not obvious why I'd want to
try and be appreciative of food regardless of whether it's actually tasty

~~~
p10_user
Is it so bewildering to you that someone could be thankful for the food
they’re about to eat? Not everyone in the world has stable access to food.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
I guess it's a sign of human progress that the basic idea of being grateful
for having food, as opposed to NOT having food, wouldn't occur to some people.

~~~
coldtea
I'd say it's a sign of the progress of access to food - but not necessarily of
human progress (e.g. humans becoming better).

Plentiful access or not, respect for what we get to have, has many other
benefits, and goes beyond the mere satisfaction of our needs/desires.

------
Skunkleton
> In order to be in the study, you must do the three steps of this ritual each
> time you eat.

So the study is selecting for people that have good self control already?

------
robotkdick
Why aren't more scientific studies written like this one--with
straightforward, simple, and clear language? It's a joy to read.

~~~
wccrawford
Are you reading the actual study? Because what's linked here isn't a study,
it's an article about a study. In other words, it's written by a journalist,
not a scientist that worked on the study.

~~~
robotresearcher
No, it’s a popular article by one of the study authors. Researchers can and do
write in both modes sometimes.

~~~
kerbalspacepro
Research can, and do, and SHOULD. By writing popular pieces, scientists are
basically using the Feynman technique and increasing their own understanding
of whatever it is they're learning about

------
0wl3x
I've found that behavior that isn't quite a ritual, but unique to that
activity can be highly motivating and beneficial to focus as well. Whenever I
want to get deeply focused on code writing, I'll start speaking to myself
under my breath. A bit like the intention behind vocalizing your thoughts
during a coding interview, it's been very helpful for keeping my mind on
track.

------
im3w1l
Those sound like rituals someone with OCD might perform. I wonder if the
common thread is that they reduce anxiety in both healthy and unhealthy, and
that this reduction leads to increased agency.

Also it would be good to seem other groups replicate this.

------
esmi
My ritual is checking hacker news. I practice it often.

------
thrifter
I believe mundane daily routines, when ritualized, can be a great way to get
focused and in cognitive flow: [https://medium.com/@jasoncomely/the-secret-
ceremony-46000940...](https://medium.com/@jasoncomely/the-secret-
ceremony-460009407c43)

------
everdev
TLDR; They encouraged people to make random gestures or perform meaningless
tasks before eating and they found a ~10% reduction in calories (self-
reported) and ~20% difference in people choosing vegetables over cake.

I wonder if breathing and presencing would have the same effect or stronger. I
think our initial urge for sugar / instant gratification comes from our monkey
brain and is overpowering but brief. Slowing down allows our rational brain to
catch up and make a better long term decision.

This probably applies to more in life than just eating.

------
groth
tldr; adding bureaucracy makes people give up on everything.........even
eating

------
Hnrobert42
I am skeptical of the conclusion because of the imprecise language. For
example, concluding ritual may be more effective than stringent dieting. 1.
What is the documented efficacy of dieting over the same limited time period?
2. Are dieting and ritual mutually exclusive?

Is eating a carrot instead of chocolate necessarily a demonstration of will
power? At least with the other studies, the subjects had a stated goal of
weight loss.

How many subjects participated? Were the trials run more than once? The
scholarly articles are paywalled, so all we are left with is this article. And
this article seems more fitting for a grocery store checkout line rag than for
Scientific American.

~~~
robotresearcher
It’s a popular article, not a formal report. It contains links as references
to the papers.

SciAm never publishes formal scientific articles as far as I know. It is a
popular magazine about science, not a primary source journal.

~~~
Hnrobert42
As noted, the papers are paywalled.

My criticism is actually less about the language that the quality of the
study. However, without reading the actually papers, I cannot be sure it is
the study that is flawed.

------
windows_tips
Why is this scientific publication using such magical language?

~~~
dang
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

~~~
windows_tips
I don't get why you think comments that generate conversation are
"unsubstantive".

~~~
dang
On HN the idea is to value quality above quantity.

------
rbinv
Here it is: "First, cut your food into pieces before you eat it. Second,
rearrange the pieces so that they are perfectly symmetric on your plate.
Finally, press your eating utensil against the top of your food three times."

~~~
tbirrell
No... That's not really the point of the article. The secret sauce is that
/that/ ritual, its /any/ ritual. The premise is that by doing the ritual, you
are more liking to do the "correct" thing. Probably (and this is my
speculation here) because thus far the "correct" thing was tied to the ritual,
and as humans, we like the sense of completion, so once we start the "random"
part of the ritual, we want to finish the process, which involves doing the
thing.

~~~
rbinv
You're right.

