
Amish Counter Top Kitchen Appliances Run Off Compressed Air (2012) - SQL2219
https://www.sufficientself.com/threads/amish-counter-top-kitchen-appliances-run-off-compressed-air.12802/
======
keiferski
When you're growing up in a "regular" setting in Pennsylvania, you tend to
regard the Amish as a sort of old-fashioned Luddite curiosity. But once you
look into their beliefs and practices regarding technology, it is actually
quite rational - and the rest of society could learn a thing or two from them.

Their policy on phones is a good example. While they allow them in particular
cases (such as business or keeping in touch with distant family members),
they've traditionally kept the phones out the home and in a separate
"outhouse" sort of building.

 _Phones in the home continue to be rejected today, due in part to the
symbolic connection to the world but also to preserve the institution of the
home. Too much phone usage, as any parents of teenagers may be able to attest
to, can compromise family life and time spent with family in general._

 _Having the telephone shanty away from the home maintains a degree of
separation but allows the technology to be used when needed. Its distance from
the home also discourages unnecessary calls._

[http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-telephones/](http://amishamerica.com/do-
amish-use-telephones/)

~~~
dangus
The practical difference between this ideal and our own lives is so minute
that the entire idea of shunning modern technology past an arbitrary date
still doesn't end up making any sense. We sometimes hold up the Amish and
similar communities as "more pure" versions of ourselves, when in reality they
are families just like our own - just with (IMO oppressive and patriarchal)
orthodox beliefs applied.

Any digital household can attest to maintaining rules like:

"No phones at the dinner table"

"No TV until after dinner and homework"

Is it also not possible to interrupt attentive family time with books and
toys, or any other non-digital distractions? Maintaining rules and family time
in a household isn't unique to these communities.

~~~
keiferski
> The practical difference between this ideal and our own lives is so minute
> that the entire idea of shunning modern technology past an arbitrary date
> still doesn't end up making any sense.

First off, I don't think it's minute at all. Look outside - 95% of people are
staring at a screen in their hands. Cell phones in general and social media in
particular have completely taken over the social sphere. Casual conversation
on the street or in the checkout line has been replaced with _pull out your
device and scroll._ Online dating is rapidly becoming the default dating
method. The examples are endless.

Secondly, the Amish don't shun any technology past an arbitrary date. They
decide as a community whether or not to introduce a certain technology,
depending on its perceived benefits or costs. This strikes me as a rather wise
and mature approach, one that the general public would do well to adopt.

And finally, statistically, the Amish have far more robust families and birth
rates as compared to the general population. So it seems pretty easy to make
the argument that their system results in a greater focus on family, even if
adopting similar behaviors (without becoming Amish) is theoretically possible.

~~~
dangus
I edited my comment away because I didn't think it was useful. Sorry about
that.

~~~
keiferski
Your contention was that their lives are not fundamentally different than the
average person. I gave a few examples to illustrate that it is indeed quite
different. I think you just proved my point.

As to whether online dating/less social interaction in public/lower
birthrates/etc. are ultimately better or worse - that's a different
discussion.

I am not Amish, have no intention of becoming Amish, and indeed don't know a
single person in the Amish community. Yet I applaud them for taking control of
the technology in their community - even if I personally disagree with some of
their views - unlike the rest of society, which by and large blindly adopts
whatever is trendy, pleasurable, or pushed by monied corporate interests.

------
code4tee
Have visited Amish stores where they have pneumatic belts for the cash
registers. The registers were about the only electric thing in sight and were
powered by batteries and solar or generators. Lighting was all gas powered
from propane tanks. They had some off the shelf lamps and things that had been
re-rigged to run off LEDs and batteries (literally a car battery on the floor
next to the lamp powering it). It was all very cool. Ceiling fans were also
pneumatic. Building also had tons of skylights so during the day everything
inside was lit with sunlight.

Some people think the Amish are against technology which isn’t really
accurate. It’s more that they’re intent on being self-sufficient and against
unnecessary uses of technology.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Powering air kitchen appliances from a diesel compressor seems no more self-
sufficient than using electricity. A paddock windmill driving the compressor
on the other hand...

Still have a hard time separating it from electrical powered by a paddock
windmill or rooftop solar panels.

~~~
JulianMorrison
It's often about the opposite of self-sufficiency - community mutualism, and
community visibility.

This compares to having a phone in a publicly visible booth away from houses.
It wouldn't be hard to run the phone cable right to the house, but then people
would be tempted to make personal, idle use of it.

~~~
thekingofh
Not necessarily a negative considering the human need for community.

------
teilo
My brother, who lives in rural Michigan and is surrounded by Amish, took me to
one of their wood shops.

These Amish were allowed to run diesel engines, provided they started them
with a fly-wheel and clutch system.

In this case, the diesel engine was in a shed at the side of the building, and
was connected to a drive shaft that, through a series of transfer cases, belt
and pulleys, secondary drive shafts, etc., powered everything you can imagine
in a professional wood shop: planers, table saws, routers, etc., and a large
population of battery-powered hand tools that had been converted to direct
drive and were attached to flexible speedometer-like cables.

It was extraordinary.

~~~
Accujack
This is exactly how such shops were powered in the late 1800-early 1900s,
before electricity was everywhere. The belt systems (sometimes in large
factories there were thousands of machines running) were driven by water
power, steam engines, and eventually electric motors.

You can still pretty easily buy antique tools with belt inputs, including
heavy machine tools like lathes and milling machines.

~~~
adolph
Richard Scarry documented this in his work "What Do People Do All Day":

[https://books.google.com/books?id=tuqKDQAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newb...](https://books.google.com/books?id=tuqKDQAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PA66&dq=richard%20scarry%20lumbermill%20%22what%20do%20people%20do%20all%20day%22&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=richard%20scarry%20lumbermill%20%22what%20do%20people%20do%20all%20day%22&f=false)

------
dangus
IMO, the Amish/Mennonite or similar groups' systems never made a lot of sense,
like many extreme religious orthodoxies.

Powering these appliances with compressed air doesn't change the fact that
their engineering drawings were done on a computer, assembled in a factory
rife with robotics, and delivered on a UPS truck. And that the most convenient
method of producing compressed air involves internal combustion or
electricity.

Nothing in the Bible supports electricity or any other 20th century technology
being anything sinful. It's just another extremist group making their own
bonkers interpretations of a religious book.

I think the Amish are glorified based on their work ethic and nice furniture,
but I think the reality of living in that community has all the negatives of
an extreme religious cult.

~~~
JulianMorrison
The point of their approach to technology is to cherry pick that which
supports, and does not diminish, their contemplative and social way of life. I
don't think they're against computers either, to give an example. They're just
against letting them be a temptation to idleness.

Obviously they live embedded in a world that doesn't work according to their
rules. Everyone who wants to change society does that.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> I don't think they're against computers either

They aren't. There are in fact computers specifically designed and marketed
for Amish business work. They're more like a classic Word Processor than what
we call a computer.

------
alamortsubite
An Amish-owned grocery store I frequent has ceiling fans that run off
compressed air. They sound really cool in operation, each one emitting a
subtle, "Pop, chk chk chk chk.. Pop, chk chk chk chk.."

~~~
saalweachter
As a home owner this intrigues me.

If your house were a barn, there's nothing much to go wrong. Add some fire for
heat, and now your house can burn down. Add some water for indoor plumbing and
now your house can rot, flood, or simply be more attractive to termites (who
need water plus wood). Add electricity for lighting and whatnot, and you now
have a second way your house can burn down, or kill you in other ways.

Pneumatics are interesting because their failure modes don't involve
destroying the structure they inhabit.

~~~
sangnoir
> Pneumatics are interesting because their failure modes don't involve
> destroying the structure they inhabit.

That depends on where they store the compressed air and how high the pressure
goes. Sudden decompression can produce a very destructive shockwave.

~~~
saalweachter
That's just it -- you can store and compress the air _outside_ the house and
pump it in at low pressures.

We do the same thing for electricity, but the "low pressures" we pump it into
our houses at can still burn them down or kill us outright.

------
roland35
That is really cool! Like other people have said there are many different
types of Amish, with varying levels of acceptance of technology. In general
they value hard work and being self-sufficient, so sometimes they do use
generators or power tools if they need to. I recently had an Amish crew put
new siding on my house but they only used hand tools.

The Amish realllly liked pop though, we would buy a big case of Coke, root
beer, etc, and they would go through it very fast!

------
userbinator
Not new technology, but I guess that's the point; pneumatic tools have been
around for a long time and are very common in workshops where an ample supply
of compressed air is available. I wonder how loud these are, that's one of the
biggest drawbacks of air motors --- the shrill hissing and whining noises of a
workshop are one of the more fatiguing sounds to hear.

Relatedly, the Paris compressed-air power network was discussed here several
months ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19782760](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19782760)

~~~
reaperducer
_the shrill hissing and whining noises of a workshop are one of the more
fatiguing sounds to hear._

Can confirm.

In the early 2000's, I built a web site for a small factory that ran almost
entirely on compressed air. Part of the project involved spending six months
on the production floor photographing items as they were built. (15,000
different SKUs!)

~~~
saagarjha
I wonder if you could get the website itself to run on compressed air…

~~~
bipson
Do you really wonder?

The answer would be "Of course!" and "Of course not!".

You don't need electricity to run a "computer". But as soon as you're trying
to hook up this computer to the Internet, serving responses on an _electrical_
network... I can't imagine how to do this without electricity.

Of course you're not looking for answers using a turbine, are you?

~~~
rebuilder
Well, fiber optic cable uses light to transmit data... a vibrating mirror
could modulate the output. How to receive, well, that seems a bit harder! Also
probably some small issues with precise timing and bitrate are to be expected.

~~~
petra
Communication systems have methods to compensate for timing errors. And it's
probably feasible to build all those circuits at the server side.

But bitrate would be low.

------
MisterTea
I read an article in a woodworking magazine showing how an amish shop runs its
traditionally electric machines on diesel power.

A long trench runs part the length of the shop with a shaft supported by
bearing blocks. It terminates in an adjacent room housing a diesel engine. A
belt system couples the engine to the shaft and air compressor.

Along the trench are all the standard machines you'd find in a shop: drill
press, planer, sanders, table saw, joiner, etc. Each one had its electric
motor removed and retrofitted with an elaborate system of shafts, belts and
sheaves which connected to the main shaft in the trench.

They turned them on and off using a simple yet clever lever operated belt
tensioner. By default the belt had enough slack to allow it to slip on the
drive sheave preventing the machine from running. When the lever was pulled,
it forced the belt between two tensioning sheaves tightening it which then
started the machine. Very simple and clever and all made from wood.

Power tools were all air operated and one clever hack they made was a
pneumatic wood glue dispenser. It was a 1-2 foot length of 3 or 4 inch PVC
pipe, capped at both ends, one end being a threaded port. Plumbed to the top
of the tube was an air pressure regulator to lower the pressure to just a few
PSI. At the bottom, a hose which ran to a blow gun. You shut the air, opened
the cap, filled it with glue, closed it and turned the air on. press the blow
gun and now you have a glue gun! Really neat and my father built one for his
wood shop.

One bonus of using air tools is they are lighter and more rugged than
equivalent electric power tools. I've heard claims of 3-4x lifetime so long as
they are fed clean, lubricated air. Nowhere near as efficient though as a lot
of power is lost as heat in air compression.

------
lpcamacho
There is a good article about the benefits of compressed air technology on low
tech magazine [https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2018/05/ditch-the-
batteries-...](https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2018/05/ditch-the-batteries-
off-the-grid-compressed-air-energy-storage.html)

~~~
arghwhat
As a common user of compressed air tools, there are countless drawbacks that
likely negate the benefits:

1\. Leakage. It is hard to avoid having connectors leak, requiring very
frequent recompression of tanks even without use.

2\. Efficiency. Compressed air _tanks_ are very efficient for energy storage,
but compressors and especially handheld tools are not. Also, if you are using
a compressor powered by another easy-to-use source of energy such as
electricity, you are just pointlessly throwing energy out the window.

3\. Noise. You cannot get around the fact that the tools need to expel
pressurized air, commonly powering either turbines (whirring noises) or
pistons (adds banging/clicking noises). Compressors are also horribly noisy,
with the best ones being a deep, powerful humm.

The reason pneumatic tools are popular with mechanics and the likes is related
to the built-in cooling effect allowing for dense high-powered tools, and that
high-torque impact tools are also quite easy to make this way. The environment
they're used in is already noisy, so that aspect doesn't matter.

------
devicetray0
> Where air power equipment may become the real alternative power source is
> when it is combined with a wind turbine air compressor, which the Amish are
> beginning to use. During a good steady windy season many Amish may not need
> to run a regular air compressor for days at a time.

I have not heard about an wind/air turbine used to refill an air compressor
(without electricity). Not sure how that would work, but I'm very interested
in learning if anyone has background here.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I have not heard about an wind/air turbine used to refill an air compressor
> (without electricity). Not sure how that would work

A wind turbine turns rotation into electricity.

A motor turns electricity into rotation.

A compressor uses rotation to compress gas.

You can remove the electricity between stages 1 and 2.

~~~
Waterluvian
I think the part that isn't intuitive to everyone is how to "accumulate"
potential energy if you don't have batteries/capacitors. Like how I can't fill
my car tire with my bike pump. There's... there's magic missing. Something
that takes a small amount of pressure and overcomes the huge pressure the
other way. Check valves or whatnot.

It's easier to perceive when you think about a massive turbine that can grind
out a ton of electricity and power a compressor that by default produces a lot
of air pressure.

These tools are really neat to me. I love the idea of things like a hand crank
radio, pulleys, and long levers.

Presumably you could fill the tire of a transport truck with the bulb from a
blood pressure cuff and a lot of time, but it's not intuitive to me what the
mechanics are in between those two things.

~~~
chrisseaton
> how to "accumulate" potential energy if you don't have batteries/capacitors

That's what the compressed gas is - it's potential energy. It's like a
battery.

> Like how I can't fill my car tire with my bike pump.

Why not? Because you can't pump hard enough and it's not strong enough to hold
the pressure needed? You can build a stronger pump, and you can use a lever or
gears (same thing really) to compensate for your strength if you can't pump
any more.

> Presumably you could fill the tire of a transport truck with the bulb from a
> blood pressure cuff and a lot of time, but it's not intuitive to me what the
> mechanics are in between those two things.

Again that's just a 'lever' problem - you can't squeeze the bulb hard enough,
so add a lever (and you may need to make the bulb stronger.)

~~~
usrusr
Pressure differential is analogous to voltage and mass flow to current, I
think we are all on the same page about that.

The sorely missing bit is the equivalent of those amazing DC/DC step-up/down
voltage regulators that have revolutionized the application of electricity in
recent decades (all the way from tiny electronics to massive HVDC networks),
and/or an equivalent of the AC transformers that fulfilled a similar role
before. Actually AC is missing in its entirety, there's just no practical way
of transmitting power via soundwaves.

The closest pneumatic equivalent to DC-DC converters are coupled turbines,
e.g. turbochargers or high bypass turbojets. But those are not just far beyond
households appliance scale, they are also limited to the high mass-flow/low
pressure differential, but practical applications of pneumatic storage are the
opposite.

~~~
imtringued
You add a gear to your compressor. There is no need for an air pressure
converter (which is effectively just an compressed air powered compressor with
a higher maximum pressure).

~~~
usrusr
Substituting pressure with more volume is highly impractical when storage is
involved.

------
mirekrusin
Slightly related - I was wondering the other day if it would be practical to
have mechanical fridge for a can of a beer where you'd keep pumping out the
air, creating lower pressure, cooling down the beer. I was wondering if it
would be practical, ie. you could pump the beer to nice chilled temperature
without too much sweat?

~~~
n3k5
There's a problem with this proposal: As cooling down the entire fridge via
this method is not feasible, you'd have to thermally insulate the can from the
outside case of the fridge. As in a normal household fridge, the can would
have to give off its heat to the surrounding air inside the cooled chamber.
The more of that air you pump out, the more that process slows down.

Instead, you could just take an ordinary mini fridge and replace the electric
motor with a hand crank. Or maybe an exercise bike.

It could measure how much work you have put in and show you an estimate of how
much longer you need to pedal/crank until you have expended as many calories
as the beer contains.

------
hyperpallium
Exhalation, _Ted Chiang_
[http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Te...](http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Ted%20Chiang.html)
(full text)

------
grawprog
I'm not sure I really see the difference between using compressed air powered
tools and appliances and electrical ones. All of the hand tools at my work are
air powered because the wet environment makes electrical ones dangerous. The
air powered tools are also typically more powerful and run at higher rpms and
have more horsepower than electrical ones. I'm not sure why the air powered
appliances have less torque but air powered grinders and polishers definitely
have more power than electic ones, I've used both.

~~~
Skunkleton
In general, I don't think air powered tools have less torque. Rather, they
have less torque at low rpms.

~~~
grawprog
Ah fair enough that makes more sense. The description made it a not quite as
clear. I think it's too bad home air compressors tend to be more of a
niche/hobbyist thing or situations like the Amish. I honestly never really
appreciated the power and versatility of a compressed air system until working
in a place that works off of and relies on it.

~~~
egdod
Home air compressors produce so little compressed air that they generally
can’t even keep up with the needs of a small tool at 100% duty cycle.

------
yumraj
> Most of the Amish fill large air storage tanks using a gasoline or diesel
> powered engine.

Isn't that cheating? The _electricity_ is not fine, but gasoline and diesel
powered engine, that itself is extracted and refined using electricity is.

They should have compressed air using _horse_ power.

~~~
ericdykstra
Amish are not anti-technology, they are technology-skeptic and will only adopt
a technology if they see that the benefit outweighs the cost, and they are
very conservative about their decisions.

[http://amishamerica.com/technology/](http://amishamerica.com/technology/)

Just looking at the result, it seems to have worked out well for them. They're
a community that has maintained a focus on family and community, and are in a
good position to withstand collapse scenarios, since they are much less
dependent on the global economic system.

~~~
BurningFrog
There are also several different "strains" of Amishism, with substantial
differences in their technology adoption stances.

~~~
willis936
Driving through the midwest the most surprising thing I saw was a big Amish
family birthday party... at a Texas Roadhouse.

------
evgeniysharapov
This is getting to the absurd, how does the air get compressed ? Steam engine
?

------
cesarb
This reminded me of an article I saw some time ago
([https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/09/power-from-the-
tap-w...](https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/09/power-from-the-tap-water-
motors.html)) about appliances (including but not limited to kitchen ones)
powered by water from the tap.

~~~
kitd
I was wondering what the advantages of compressed air are over water. Given
water is an incompressible fluid, I would have thought it was a much more
efficient means of driving turbines and other moving equipment.

~~~
ticviking
But the fact that it is incompressible makes it more difficult to use it as a
store of energy to be used on demand.

One of the advantages of compressed air is you can let a little out of the
tank to power one thing for a bit, then a little more to power a different
thing, and only need to run the generator when the tank is out of air.

------
jcmoscon
I remembered about this compressed air car. That's an interesting tech:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car)

------
robbrown451
An interesting challenge would be making a compressed air powered computer or
tv for them.

~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
Heard of generators? You can do that.

~~~
robbrown451
Well I meant with no electricity at all. Here are some people who attempted
it:
[https://www.niklasroy.com/workshop/184/PneumaticComputing](https://www.niklasroy.com/workshop/184/PneumaticComputing)

~~~
anfractuosity
Have you seen this -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics)
which seems pretty cool. There seem to be computers which use liquid and
formations of pipes to create different logic elements.

------
JulianMorrison
Combined with a wind turbine air compressor as described in the article,
that's some serious solarpunk stuff right there.

------
lawlessone
AirPunk

------
ptah
what are the limits of compressed air as a replacement for electricity?

~~~
dsfyu404ed
The big one is efficiency. Air has much bigger losses any time you "do
anything" with it. Converting it to mechanical energy is particularly
expensive.

------
Uhrheber
Someone should tell them, that their bodies are running on electricity...

~~~
raducu
I doubt the amish have anything against electricity per se. I bet they are
against TV, radio and internet.

------
thrower123
At some point, this kind of thing gets silly. If you're trying to take an end-
run around your religious restrictions, what is really the point of sticking
to them?

I'm reminded of appliances that have sabbath modes, where they work based on
proximity sensors or other mechanisms that respect the letter, if not the
intent, of Abrahamic law.

~~~
kgwgk
Those are not divine mandates, they are social conventions more than religious
restrictions.

~~~
mlrtime
As they are all

------
mc32
It’s amusing and curious that while they shun modern tech they acquiesce to
compressed air, which is fine, but it leaks. Can they not make some sort of
semi-universal mechanical driveshaft powered via pedal power? Either use a
kind of bike mechanism or like antique sewing machines and have a flexible
driveshaft (like a plumbers flexible snake/auger that has a coupling that’d
fit into lots of applications and devices.

Sure it’s rubegoldbergian, but I mean they’re working with compressed air
already.

~~~
cdumler
> while they shun modern tech

This is a common foible of "educated public," and a lot of people
misunderstand the Amish: they don't shun modern tech. The have cars and
phones, computers and websites, and such. It's not about the tech but what the
tech brings about. They consider the social implications of technology: Who
does this technology replace? Who does this empower with good habits or bad
habits? If I use this and then I am done, what do I do with it? Does this make
me dependent on something out side of my control?

While they have technology, they limit who has/owns the technology. Complex
tech is often communally used. But, personal technology is usually chosen with
durability, simplicity, and reliability in mind. Check out their buggies[1].
These things aren't necessarily simple or cheap. Good ones are designed to
last and be handed down, not like your old beater car you hand to your kid
because it's frame is rusting out. They understand building technology quite
well. We just don't think of it that way because of the materials used.

[1] [https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-
technology/a24666/...](https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-
technology/a24666/how-the-amish-build-a-buggy/)

~~~
aaron_m04
When you put it that way, why aren't we all Amish? It sounds great.

~~~
bpodgursky
I think the main thing that would grate against modern western sensibilities
is that the decisions are made communally; there's not a lot of economic
freedom of choice .

The town votes whether air conditioning is OK -- you don't get to decide. If
the decision is that nobody in town has Snapchat, then you don't get to
install it.

~~~
Chiktabba
Just like an HOA!

~~~
balfirevic
Yes, both are terrible.

