
Burnout and Mental Health - ingve
http://stephaniehurlburt.com/blog/2016/6/27/burnout-and-mental-health
======
eknkc
Oh this is too real.

I spent 3 years of my life, working ~100 hours a week on the same project. It
was a startup (local one) and I can't remember the details of that time. I
went to 2 vacations, only to spend my time working on my laptop, just by a
pool rather than at the office. I carried my laptop to everywhere. Kept my
phone accessible 7/24\. Even got stressed on ~1 hour flights I had to take,
because I'd be offline. I planned to quit but never acted on it. That mental
state somehow locks you in.

As far as I can remember, my only comfort was my cat. He'd sleep on my lap
while I was working at home. Like a stress reliever.

Then he died one day without a warning. I just went ahead and quit my job the
next day.

Best decision of my life. I had some stock in the company and sold it during a
later investment round to our older VC. Spent 6 months doing absolutely
nothing. Then started a new company, started working healthy hours. Started
cycling, eating healthy. Lost a ton of weight. Taking care of yourself makes
everything work much better in long term. Later, even found a cat with a
broken rib on the street, barely breathing. He's now sleeping next to me.

Please, please if you are in a similar situation, just stop. Doesn't worth it.

~~~
badwolf
That's pretty much right on the nose. Right down to my chihuahua sleeping in
my lap right now...

------
jondubois
This sounds like the past 10 years of my life. I can't even enjoy normal life
activities anymore... And I can't afford to take a long enough break to
recover (if that's still possible?).

I don't even care about memories anymore - I'm in survival mode; I'm just a
bullet moving towards its target.

It's like I've been running through a tunnel as fast possible for a long time
and I can finally just see the light at the end of it, but I know there's a
train coming in my direction and if I don't make it out of the tunnel in time
it's going to get really dark and ugly.

~~~
gt565k
Take 2 weeks off and buy an airplane ticket asap.

It helps to have something to look forward to.

Go to a different country, a change of scenery, new cultures to explore are
always a great way to take your mind off the daily grind.

~~~
jondubois
I refined my initial comment a little to not to sound so depressing. I do
enjoy my work itself but the pursuit of success is not enjoyable when you
don't get any meaningful results - Especially when the whole system feels like
it is stacked against you.

I did change countries recently - I'm working remotely but it's definitely not
a break.

~~~
notduncansmith
Hey, I've definitely felt that way before, and know a few friends that spent a
good deal of time there. Sometimes you can spend so much time in a paper bag
you forget that it's a paper bag you could punch your way out of any time you
want. If it's not too personal, how is it that you feel that the system is
stacked against you?

------
ryandrake
> I was used to being scared of being fired-- not that long ago, I'd been
> scraping by, had a hard time finding work. I didn't fully realize that I had
> more power now as a programmer. I didn't think about power struggles-- how
> other people did go home, but because they took the risk of standing up for
> themselves.

This is a real part of burnout--the realization that as employee #3422 you
don't have much bargaining power. But I came to the opposite conclusion to the
author's.

You either work to burnout levels or they'll just replace you with someone who
will. I used to be a really cocky 20-something programmer, not afraid of
getting fired or laid off--until it happened! Ending up about a month from
insolvency gives you a realistic perspective on the power imbalance between
you and your employer. Combine that with having a family to support, and you
become much more willing to go into the "burnout zone" in order to keep the
bills paid.

~~~
geerlingguy
It's extremely important (and often underrated) to build up a good emergency
fund to help in this type of situation. It's not the same as FU money—more of
a security blanket of at _least_ 3 months (hopefully 6 months plus) of liquid
savings (checking, savings, CDs... not stocks, not real estate).

Ever since I finally saved that amount, it's helped a LOT with that feeling...
If I lose my job today, I'll have enough personal runway to take a little time
and find a good new job. I'm lucky in that I've never personally been laid
off, but I know some people who have, and it's definitely a huge burden if you
don't have even a month's worth of solvency.

Takeaway: do whatever you can to save at least 3 months' spending in a liquid
emergency fund. Try for 6+, especially if you are supporting a family.

~~~
mgkimsal
Agreed on emergency fund. I'd probably even add that, once you get to 6
months, shoot for 9 or 12. Still don't have FU money, but have had periods
where I've had 2 years of minimal expenses saved up, which I'd never had
before (and don't now, but that's a different story). It will give you a
different perspective and some mental freedom. I still stressed about
work/projects, but never like I had before.

Part of that, for me, is being > 40, the notion of "3 months of savings" just
doesn't feel like anywhere near enough. If I needed to go get a new job...
most of my >40 yo colleagues who have looked for jobs... it's taken most of
them far more than 3 months. In one case it took a friend more than 9 months,
and there were moving expenses involved as well. If he'd had "3 months" and
that was it... I'm not sure what situation he'd have been in by that point.

~~~
aws_ls
Very important point. I think the older you are, and particularly if you have
dependents, you need a longer period of savings. Couple TV programs (e.g. Suze
Orman show) advise to have at least 8 months salary worth of savings.

I think if we have that bare minimum of comfort (i.e. 3/8/more salary months),
then after that we should try to focus on being healthy. Working more and
compromising health is a very bad deal. Even getting over-anxious about things
leads to stress (which can lead to bad health).

Most of us programmers like our jobs anyway, provided work/managerial
environment is not too bad. If we can just do it in a healthy way (YMMV, of
course. 100+ is healthy for Elon Musk, and 40/50 for me).

I think even working towards an early retirement, may also not be a good
thing, as some people try to. I have seen people age very fast after they
retire. So if we enjoy our work, and are paid a healthy amount, and have
decent savings. Should look to live a good life, right in the present. And not
worry too much about long term.

Long term: I think for most programmer-entrepreneurs _long term_ is more like
a big exit after a few (3-5) hard years of work. The problem happens when
realistically only a few of us can have such good luck. So being realistic, we
should look at returns for the long haul (10 year periods). So staying healthy
and alive, is very much needed, if and when we have the big exit.

I personally, started long(ish) distance running, to attune myself for a long
haul work wise. At present work only around 40 hours (M-F). Sat/Sun only when
needed (which is rarely). Don't compromise exercise for work. Get it done in
the morning itself, before I have a chance to log in.

I also try to minimize the stress. What's a business without setbacks? So
there are setbacks, e.g. partners breaking/not-renewing contracts . But I try
to think of these things as just -ve events in a series of various +ve/-ve
events. There are technical worries as well, e.g. EC2 volumes running out of
disk space, within the next archival cycle, and increasing them fsck/resize2fs
them, burning them in the image.

But also life goes on...in the present.

PS: Sorry, for not being specific, and randomly articulating even tangential
things to the topic at hand. Hope its not too bad. :-)

~~~
ryandrake
Yep, fortunately I had about 3 months, but in retrospect it was too close for
comfort and I should have had more saved (was at about the worst time for me--
just added six figures of debt due to grad school). Whether it's 3 months or 6
months or 12 months, the point remains: If you can't afford to lose your job,
you will do crazy things and work insane hours just to keep it.

The other thing to consider, which only applies to crazy countries like the
USA, is that losing your job also means losing your health insurance, which
can be a significant risk to your life. Sure, there's COBRA, but it's super-
expensive, and should be factored in when calculating how much you need in
savings.

~~~
mgkimsal
The weird thing is COBRA isn't "super-expensive" \- it's what the cost _is_.
Just, in most cases, an employer is picking up some, most or all of the cost,
so employees don't see it.

This is what's truly hosed up about US-based health insurance/services. People
are so divorced from the reality when things are 'good' that the horribleness
of it is exposed only when you can least deal with it.

Everyone should be required to buy their own insurance, with no employer
interference at all. We'd see massive shift in peoples' attitudes, and
probably a bigger shift to single-payer, quickly.

I'm self-employed and have had to deal with the expense of health insurance
head-on for years. I was happy when we got 'high-deductible' HSA options, as
it reduced monthly expense. ACA/Obamacare has more than doubled our monthly
premiums in just 3 years, and I still can't afford to get sick at all without
incurring hundreds or thousands of dollars in medical bills. :(

------
tequila_shot
This is exactly what I am going through right now. It's been 5 months and I
don't have any recollection of my first month.

I'm in the middle of a high profile project which goes to UAT in two weeks,
and I know it is slated to fail. There's just too many issues.

I have been working 85+ hours every week constantly for the past ~5 months.
Being an Immigrant ( H1B) makes it more difficult. All I do these days is code
for 15+ hours everyday with an impending weight hanging over my head
constantly that I'll be made a scapegoat if the project fails.

I've started to lookout for opportunities, and since it's September, the
number of companies offering jobs in my domain are _very_ less.

What did you do when things like these happened?

~~~
outworlder
> All I do these days is code for 15+ hours everyday with an impending weight
> hanging over my head constantly that I'll be made a scapegoat if the project
> fails.

This is a legitimate question, not a criticism: why do you think that you,
specifically, will be the scapegoat?

Is it possible that you can find a way to not work 15 hours straight? Since
you know that the project will crash and burn anyway, this effort will be
meaningless. Trying to carry the weight of a doomed project by yourself is not
a good idea.

Now, if the project is a high-profile one, expect that some management cuts
will happen. In some companies, but not all, this also means "pruning" all the
reporting tree. Is the company big enough that you could move to another
division, or whatever they call it? If so, you should focus on that.

The ship is sinking and all you have is a bucket. Start sending signal flares.

~~~
tequila_shot
> This is a legitimate question, not a criticism: why do you think that you,
> specifically, will be the scapegoat?

Because I am the lead developer on this project and the manager of this
project was always unavailable to escalations / concerns. In the end I just
think he'd wipe his hands off and say he was never involved in this project (
though he is supposed to be working 50% on this project)

~~~
Swizec
Sounds like a great scapegoat to me! Hope you have all those email threads
stored :)

If not -> start producing them.

~~~
outworlder
Oh yes please build a paper trail. This should be your no.1 job starting now.

Doesn't matter what the actual outcome will be, the paper trail is your only
defense.

~~~
jtheory
It's worth emphasizing... the paper trail must show you're doing everything
you can to warn the company that this project is currently on track to fail,
and (as much as you can illuminate it) what the costs to the company will be.

Back up your reasoning as clearly and simply as you can.

From the perspective of your employers: because they're paying your salary
(and others as well, including half your boss' salary dedicated to this), for
a failed end result -- firing you as the scapegoat doesn't leave them with
nothing, it leaves them with far less than nothing; all of that time and
salary lost, plus the costs of replacing you (whether because they've fired
you, _or_ because they've burned you out entirely). Plus costs to reputation,
which harms client relationships and hiring both.

Being able to say "I told you so" later doesn't really help anyone; but if you
can suggest a better path (drastically reducing scope, extending or segmenting
the delivery timeline, or even canceling the project), then you should be able
to get someone to listen.

If your boss really grasps where things are going (and that this isn't just
"the usual developer griping"), then he'll get credit as well for saving the
situation, and you both benefit.

------
m4x
It's really important to pay attention to symptoms of burnout and deal with
them as a possibly life changing injury. Never ignore it. Never think "I'll
deal with it after this project"

I didn't realise this when I was younger and suffered three burnouts. The
first two sucked but were reasonably short term problems. The third destroyed
my ability to think clearly and I'm only now starting to regain the ability to
think as I used to - after a ten year break in a completely different career.

Don't ignore burnout!

------
nul_byte
I hope I don't sound conceited here, but this was me and I resolved the issue.

Meditation. 15 minutes a day is all it takes, and I get myself to that place
of not giving a care in the world and feeling all the stress just drop away.
The only way I can describe it as, is like when you go on a beach holiday and
you're lying in the sun, not sure what day it is (Saturday, Wednesday?) and
feeling content.

Its now become vital and essential for me to mediate, it feels as important as
sleeping and eating. I don't have any aspirations to become enlightened, I
just wanted to stop waking up fearful in the morning and content during the
day and night.

~~~
netule
Can you recommend any resources for beginning meditation?

~~~
tyleraland
I've tried and really like the guided meditations (audio) from
[https://www.headspace.com/](https://www.headspace.com/)

There are some very short ones for free, longer ones cost money

------
JDiculous
I completely relate to this.

I realized things needed to seriously change when I couldn't recall how long
I'd been living in NYC or my apartment (4 and 3 years), and when I did the
math I couldn't believe how much longer it was than I thought. The last year
or so has basically been a blur aside from a few interesting memories (eg.
vacations). It's not even like I've been working really hard, I've just been
living a dull life on autopilot doing the same thing over and over again.

I've noticed that time passes slower when you're doing more interesting
things. When I'm on vacation, the days feel much longer and fuller and I
remember them in vivid detail. On the other hand, a month at the office is
often just one continuous blur (I wrote about this here:
[http://jdiculous.blogspot.com/2016/04/slow-down-time-
routine...](http://jdiculous.blogspot.com/2016/04/slow-down-time-routines-are-
death.html)). Also I'd been struggling to wake up before 10am and generally
feeling sleep-deprived during the week, but on vacation I naturally wake up
bright and early at 6:30-7:30am and fully awake.

I just quit my job and flew to Tokyo just to experience something different.
My first day I woke up at 7am and went to bed at 7am. That single day was more
memorable than the weeks if not months before I quit my job.

I've just managed to land a remote job. My plan is to travel around, and I'm
hoping that the freshness of constantly being exposed to new environments and
experiences outside my comfort zone will keep me sharp and more engaged with
life rather than another forgettable year in an air-conditioned open office at
the same desk around the same people.

------
devy
In my own opinion, job responsibility and stress level are proportional.

A year ago, I was burned out from a VPE level job for two years before and
after moving down to a Engineering Lead (developer) job, responsibility
greatly reduced, so were the stress level. I am able to take care more on
myself and my family. So for the pay-cut and title downgrade, it's a good
tradeoff so far.

Having said that, by no means responsibility is the only factor, I also feel
that the work culture is also geographical. For instances, from my anecdotal
experiences, same type of company in U.S. and Japan are working longer hours
than the ones in Canada or France. A startup job in S.F. may seem a bit more
stressful than a similar job in the Midwest/South. Your milage may vary.

PS: 8-hours of sleep is a great way to help me wean off the heavy coffee-
drinking lifestyle. I remember reading an article recommended by my Jawbone UP
wristband app about the quality of sleeping - REM sleeping is the key for
brain consolidate memories. [1] [2]. As as aside, I love Jawbone's health
awareness content. Too bad, they are going under :(

[1] [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-michael-j-breus/whats-
in-a-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-michael-j-breus/whats-in-a-
dream_1_b_6489336.html)

[2]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15560767](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15560767)

------
KVFinn
Mirror:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aIqxi8A...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aIqxi8A90-EJ:stephaniehurlburt.com/blog/2016/6/27/burnout-
and-mental-health+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
RickS
Note for others: had to click "text only version" to read

------
another_account
For anyone currently trying to self-medicate with illegal drugs. Please,
please get help. There is no shame. Im a recovered heroin addict. I lost
everything and am currently rebuilding.

I started on the opiates and benzos to self-medicate. I had all the symptoms,
panic attacks, getting really ill whenever i took a break. Complete lack of
perspective. Just stress from all sides, work, relationships, bills. Insane
working hours for years. So, of course as my tolerance rose so did the dosage
and strength.

CBT, therapy, meditation, exercise and stable routine are what i have utilised
to get myself out of what i would call, without any sense of over-dramatising,
hell.

It is not worth it. Please, please get help. There is no shame.

------
simonswords82
This article strikes home with me...I've not told this story publicly before:

I've burnt out twice, it ain't pretty and once you've experienced burnout it
opens doors in your brain that are difficult and time consuming to close
again. So you're best off making sure those doors remain closed by taking care
of yourself :)

For the first five or so years of my software company I worked like a dog on
meth. It wasn't smart working, it was sheer brute force and ignorance that got
the business off the ground. Come Christmas every year I would be a shell of
myself. Christmas was the only time I really stepped back from work, and I
inevitably got ill most years as my body recovered from the sustained beating
I'd given it that year.

My first burn out was 2011. The recession had kicked in, clients were going
away or shrinking their spend with us in droves. To compound matters my
personal finances were intricately linked to the businesses success or failure
due to the personal guarantees I'd signed on loans and the office space. I
started to suffer panic attacks and general anxiety. I tried to self medicate
both positively (exercise) and negatively (drugs), but ultimately hit the deck
hard.

The noise in my brain caused by the anxiety and stress had my brain at 100%
CPU all the time, leaving nothing for work or, well, anything. It took about
three months before I could go back to work in any normal sense of the word.

Fast forward to last year (2015) around Christmas time. Another very busy year
but this time business is brisk and so I was rolling around in our moderate
successes. Again, December came, and I hit the deck. This time I had a wicked
health scare to boot. It took about four to five months, so slightly longer,
to recover from this one.

Fool me once and all that. I've now restructured the business so that it's
almost impossible for me to work myself to death. I appointed a managing
director to take care of the day to day stuff that was burning me out, leaving
me to focus on strategy and leadership - the things I'm good at.

It's ironic that I called my business Atlas - Clever Software because he's the
Greek God condemned to hold up the sky for eternity. I condemned myself to
holding the heavy weight of a very complex and difficult to scale business.
I'm very lucky to not have long term physical or mental issues as a result of
the stress I needlessly endured. I know other founders who are not so lucky.

It's due to this backstory of mine that I have an deep dislike of the 'hustle'
culture. It's alright to bust your backside to get a business off of the
ground, but at all times you owe it to yourself and those who love you to put
your health and wellbeing first. You've got one body but there's millions of
business/work opportunities out there that you don't have to kill yourself to
make a success of.

~~~
dhruvkar
Having seen people close to me experience this, I feel for you. However, I
haven't heard any success stories that have made it any OTHER way. It's
usually in looking back, that people say burn out was wrong and I probably
shouldn't have done it that way. What's the alternative?

~~~
cta11419
> success stories that have made it any OTHER way

It often hinges on what you count as success. If you want to grow something to
a place where you can appoint a managing director to take over your least
comfortable responsibilities, you'll often need to work yourself into burnout
or burn through a ton of capital.

But plenty of people set up little lifestyle businesses or contract shops
without all that. You just have to be able to see opportunities for growth and
go "nah, not for me".

~~~
dhruvkar
> It often hinges on what you count as success.

Agreed. However, even in a lifestyle business, I have a hard time imagining
not working like crazy to get it off the ground. I've tried starting a couple
(obviously doing something wrong since I didn't succeed), but that's the way I
felt I needed to work.

------
inestyne
I think this has more to do with how we operate at high speed. I delegate my
memory to list apps and simple text notes. Since I did not have to store the
information for any length of time in my head it's hard to recall that
information later. Same break down as note taking in high level college
courses. If you never read the notes it's like you never heard the lecture.

------
markpapadakis
I suppose we all have stories to tell and advices/tips to share; I too have
gone through intense burnout, and initially it was just too hard to deal with.

Eventually, it turned out what really worked for me (it also worked with some
friends who tried this) is to just do something else for a change.

Work on small, contained projects - maybe on unrelated problem domains, and
consider changing your habits and do more things for fun, but whatever it is
you do, don't try to 'force' yourself to do it. Working out at the gym work
wonders. Getting some good night's sleep also helps.

I would also snap out of it after a few days. This never failed me, but I
realize that it may not work for everyone.

------
Disruptive_Dave
Here's another sucky thing that can happen - you unconsciously adjust and
adapt to the conditions that cause burnout and end up accepting them as "the
way it is / life." It happens slowly and without notice. There is no "rock
bottom" so you're never forced to confront the situation head on. It's like
death by a thousand paper cuts.

------
20andup
I just came back from a 5 day holiday. I was working so much on my own project
that I burnt out. It took me a few days to realize what was going on since my
project was getting easier and yet I felt a lost in motivation.

So I locked my computer up, took a road trip for 3 days and did literally
nothing for another 2 days. I started working again yesterday afternoon and
was quite surprised how much more agile my mind has become.

It's hard to let go and relax sometime when there is always so much to be
done. I think we are need to realize everyone is human and every few months we
need some break no matter if we feel like we do or not.

After working for 10 years now, I now realize that nothing is really every
that urgent. No matter what anyone tells you. Its your perception (or your
boss's) that make it urgent, but objectively, it probably isn't.

The world won't stop spinning just cause you took one more day to finish
something. Burn yourself out, and it may even take up more time.

~~~
mch82
> ...nothing is really ever that urgent.

When my co-author died (of old age at 90) and our book was unfinished I began
to distinguish between artificial deadlines and true deadlines. I realized I'd
missed a real deadline because I'd allowed myself to prioritize other projects
with deadlines that turned out to be artificial, but had more insistent people
demanding urgency.

We often operate in a culture where the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so
urgency is usually exaggerated as you describe. Look out for real deadlines
though.

A true deadline, like death, has irreversible consequences. Most "deadlines"
are really targets and can be reprioritized or deferred, especially to avoid
unhealthy behavior like burnout.

------
fredleblanc
I gave a talk on burnout and "digital overwhelm" in 2015. It's a bit of my
story and some tips on coping under the weight of the world. If you're
interested: [https://vimeo.com/147213533](https://vimeo.com/147213533) —
Slides are linked in the comments.

~~~
CrackpotGonzo
Loved this and I completely agree with most of the points you're making. What
happened to wonder and boredom? What's your current system? Do you use a
smartphone? Intentionally disconnect for periods of time?

~~~
fredleblanc
I went back to a smartphone after having lost mine for a period of months. I
regret most of it every day. There are things I like about it. The GPS, the
music, the podcasts, the camera; all in my pocket. It's just all the other
stuff that it comes with — the notifications, the interruptions, the
availability.

I know that's on me. It's a will power thing. But I'm only human. When I
didn't have my phone on me, it forced me to really examine if I cared about
something or if it was just fleeting. Like, who won the NHL MVP in 1978? If it
was still a burning question the next time I was around an Internet
connection, I'd look it up.

But 9 times out of 10, I'd forget. And wonder. And my life was better for it.

My current system is that I turn off all notifications except from my mother
and wife. My email is not fetched unless I fetch it. I have no games on my
phone. I've never had Facebook and haven't posted to Twitter in over two
years. But with all that, it's still not the same.

I've relapsed at least twice since that talk. I have a phone. And it's still
my boss. But I'm working on a bigger plan to abandon it all together. Whether
I can get there or not, that's another story.

------
_yosefk
For someone with no responsibilities except work, 70 hour weeks are
sustainable (did it for 3 years, not to be recommended, but no burnout.)
People report way larger numbers of hours though and probably have to handle
more than just their work; I don't know where things start to break down, they
ought to somewhere.

~~~
billmalarky
"no responsibilities except work"

I assume this also means the responsibility to keep one's health in check is
sacrificed for additional workload?

I can't imagine keeping up an exercise routine working that many hours.

~~~
seibelj
I don't think it's that crazy, it's five 12 hour days and then 10 hours over
the weekend. It's a lot of work, but without kids and other responsibilities
it's doable. 70 hours of working is usually only 40-50 of real programming /
hardcore thinking, there's always internet surfing, lunch, chit chat, etc.
mingled in.

~~~
funkymike
From my own experience I think it's ultimately unhealthy to justify working
long hours with "internet surfing, lunch, chit chat, etc. mingled in." While
it's easy to rationalize staying late thinking "yeah, but I took a long lunch,
chatted with so-and-so, ..." at the end of the day you have that much less
downtime away from work. I find I am much happier when I can keep those
distractions to a minimum, then force myself to go home. I get more done
outside of work and sleep better, resulting in being more focused and
productive when I am at work. Allowing work and the rest of my life to blend
together both makes me less productive at work and results in having less time
for everything else.

------
cableshaft
Holy crap.

This article made me realize that I don't remember hardly anything of the time
I spent working at one of my startup jobs. Bits and pieces of specific events
stand out, but not a lot. The last six months I was working there I worked at
least 60 hours a week, and it crept up to 80 hours a few times. The hours let
up after I was hospitalized for a day because of all the stress. I didn't do
much else besides sleep and go to work. Maybe that's why, it just blended
together.

And I have a crappy memory in general, so I don't know how much of it is
because of that. Anything more than a few years ago is kind of hazy.

But still, it's almost like that year and some change might as well have not
existed, other than to put a few lines on my resume. But there are much easier
ways to do that.

------
cm3
Burnout comes in various forms and intensities, but what's most important is
that at least the first one will not be recognized as such. You have the
symptoms but it's not like the flu or a headache, so you have no idea that
you're burning out. If you're a developer and started coding as a hobby, try
to recognize it early and find a better job or fix something else that will
resolve the root causes, but try not to let it ruin the love of coding if you
can. This sounds easier than it is, I'm well aware of that.

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njloof
I'm really surprised to read the article she linked... Labor laws in Quebec do
not exempt game employees, they should be getting overtime anytime they're
over 50 hours a week...

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sp527
One of the best things I've ever done for myself: quit my job.

Stating this not to brag but to make my point: 8 months ago I was clearing
north of $140k plus options at a top tech co (plus all the usual perks/full
benefits) at age 23. The path was probably open for a management position and
easily over 200K per year by age 30.

I hated it. The work was agonizingly mundane. The environment was
intellectually letheragic (a tremendous irony given the pedigree of my
coworkers). I was pulling long hours to write code that I knew had little real
value. And everywhere I looked I saw constraints and barriers to doing
something meaningful. Eventually it got to the point where I started having a
lot of anxiety and even moodiness and feeings of hopelessness.

I felt like what I was forcing myself to become was suffocating the person I
wanted to be, deep down. So I asked myself, honestly, if the money was worth
trading off so much of my life. My answer was 'no'. However, I think I might
be an outlier in that regard. A lot of other people place a high value on
experiences, socializing, buying nice things, etc. There are only three things
I can ever remember giving me genuine contentment: building complex things,
learning (reading, programming, lectures), and hanging with a handful of very
good friends. Turns out working a job was diametrically opposed to my main
priorities in life. And the weird thing is I'd known that for a very long time
before having a decisive 'epiphany' about it. I'd been running from that truth
because it was so contradictory, relative to what society tells us we should
do and value. This line of reasoning was essential in clearing the final
mental hurdle between myself and the decision to pursue entrepreneurship. I
had to reconcile myself with having less in the immediate term and the
likelihood of long-run financial consequences in taking a break from working
in the industry. I acknowledge that this isn't possible for everyone. Some
people have dependents, mortgages, and other obligations. But if you can
somehow make the numbers work and don't find the luxuries of a six figure
salary as compelling as the opportunities you trade away, then you owe it to
yourself to stop and think about it.

As for what happens on the other side: freedom is a beautiful thing. I'm now
convinced there's 'one easy trick' to becoming a 10x engineer and that's
quitting your job. You learn out of necessity when you have few resources and
no fallbacks. It also seems obvious now in hindsight that the surest way to
realize your full potential is to work on your own terms building something
you care about. I get to see friends more often than I have in years and I'm
working with two of my best friends on a startup. I've also been exercising
consistently and eating better. But by far the most energizing change in my
lifestyle has been my improved sleeping habits. Imagine a world in which you
don't have to set an alarm clock and always get enough sleep - that's what you
get to do when you work on your own terms. I can't be sure about this but I
feel like I might actually be improving in mental acuity as well, which I
would attribute to getting more sleep and the compounding effects of expanding
my skillset (full stack engineering, PM, marketing). I think the phenomenon of
interdisciplinary study leading to improved cognition is fairly well-studued
and I'm now realizing that entrepreneurship is at least a good approximation
of that. I furthermore spend several hours per day in flow because there are
no meetings, emails or other interruptions.

All this adds up to a lifestyle that's so dramatically superior to where I was
before that I have absolutely no intention of going back, if I can avoid it.
Sorry for the poorly-constructed stream of consciousness. I intend to write a
blog post on the subject at some point, but wanted to get this down here in
case it helps anyone trying to make a decision. If you're going through
burnout and feel like your personal narrative resembles mine, I hope you'll
take some time to consider quitting to work on something that gives you
purpose and that might have value to others. Regardless, I'll end with the
handful of things I needed to keep hearing back when I was burning out: there
IS an other side and you WILL get there. It's okay if you have to quit because
the safety net for software engineers is incredible and your health is
comparatively fragile. By far the most important thing for you to do is let
the good people in your life be there to help you get through this.

~~~
isuckatcoding
I am pretty much in the same boat as you were at your job. I wish I could quit
straight up but financially it wouldn't be responsible. Been searching for a
job since February but my shitty technical interview skills and lack of
experience keep getting me rejected. Lol I am literally willing to "code" HTML
at this point.

BTW 140k at 23?? Jeez I am the same age as you and I am getting payed just
below 100k and I work in SF.

~~~
sp527
Keep at it and don't give up! My guess is you're trying to interview at better
companies that have difficult hiring processes and that's great. You improve
at interviewing as you go along. Make sure you study/practice as many hours
per day as you can manage.

I got lucky with that comp package since I had been an intern the previous
summer and they wanted me back - gave me a lot of room to negotiate.

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brendonjohn
The time it takes to go into burnout is supposed to be the time it takes to
restore yourself.

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nonofficial10
>I realize I don't need to have caffeine to work.

Impressive. Once I said to my coworker that I'm not drinking a coffee because
I can't sleep at night. She replied she drinks coffee because she can't stay
awake in the daytimes without coffee.

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mk-61
Still recovering. Slowly. To those, who seeking for help, I can recommend a
very good read: "The Power of Now", by Eckhart Tolle.

I can even recommend it even if you never experienced burnouts, PA's.

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stephengillie
Being able to stop working when you reach burnout (and not starve or go
homeless) is a nice luxury to have. Things can always be worse.

