

Being recruited in the USA - masylum
http://pau.calepin.co/being-recruited-in-the-usa.html
There is a lack of engineers everywhere, but finding talent is especially hard on the Bay Area.<p>I'm from Spain but I've been the last 3 months in San Francisco attending to some conferences and visiting some friends. At that time I was trying to start something but I changed my mind and I started looking for a job instead...
======
trustfundbaby
I think the poster might be a little naive about the H1-B process and how
unattractive it is for small companies. Make no bones about it. Its a major
hassle, and if you leave it to the company it will (usually) never happen.

So advice for people in the same boat in the future, If it is something you
really want to do, then you need to know _exactly_ how the process works at
every step of the way and also have a really good Lawyer that the company can
talk to if they have questions. They can help you if tricky things come up
(and they will if the company applying for you is small enough).

I advise you not to go with a lawyer from a big firm, those guys just want to
see dollars ... and if your case is small and tricky they will not be
interested. trust me. Try to find an individual or small firm that is
responsive and knows the ins and outs of the process far better than you ...
if possible ask them to tell you the trickiest situation they've helped a
client with before ... that should give you some idea of how good they are.
Usually they can bill you for their time spent talking the company, or their
lawyer down from the ledge (this will happen), or if they handle the process
then you or the company can pay their fees.

Lay out the process when the company asks about it (because they will usually
not know), let them know that its not complex, just a pain in the ass and that
you will handle most of the legwork (you're prepared to do this right?) ...
some people chip in to help with the fees if they're so inclined ... this is
frowned upon and I think the law has been changed to make it illegal, use that
information as you want.

Above all, be persistent, upbeat and constantly in touch, do not think that a
company is going to jump through hoops to pay $5000 to get you. And remember
that some of the requests that are made of the company (like tax returns etc)
might cause them to stall, so be prepared for that.

It will come down to how bad you want it. good luck

------
untog
Sadly, the drama doesn't even end after getting your visa. Over six months ago
I applied for an H1B transfer to a new job- they replied requesting a
confirmation letter from every employer I've had since college saying that I
am, indeed, a developer, and not some sort of fraud. My transfer is still
pending, making every return journey back into the US a stressful experience.

This, after I've already been working in the US for two years- you would have
thought they'd have asked for the letters when I applied the first time.

My H1B three year limit is in November of this year. I can apply to extend for
another three years, but I can't wait to see what nonsense they throw my way
when I try.

~~~
coderdude
They probably make it a pain because they don't want you to spend the next
decade making money here and sending it back to the mother country.

~~~
jethroalias97
Since most of these laws are written by politicians and not economists it's
more likely that they want to appear tough on immigration to avoid "dey took
our jerbs!" style anger from the electorate. It's sort of like how clubs force
people to wait in line outside even when there is room. If they let everyone
in, it might start to feel crowded and less fun.

------
droithomme
Wow, having someone implement a square root algorithm on the spot, that's
quite a question to ask. I agree that is a terrible question because not many
top developers would be able to answer it on the spot unless they had recently
happened to have implemented it. It's not like it's an obvious algorithm. I
could mention the existence of Carmack's root algorithm, which I don't have
memorized but I do know he got from someone else, and flop around a bit.

It's weird there are so many companies claiming to not be able to find people
but you hear about their hiring process and it's no wonder.

~~~
jules
Implementing a square root algorithm is actually very simple:

    
    
        def sqrt(x):
          a = 1.0
          for _ in range(100): a = (a + x/a)/2
          return a
    

This is just Newton's method to find a solution of the equation a^2 - x = 0.
For certain classes of jobs knowing Newton's method is definitely required, as
it is the simplest and most widely used numerical method. And even if you
don't know Newton's method I expect any programmer worth his salt to be able
to come up with a bisection algorithm.

~~~
ap22213
Geez. It's time for me to retire.

I've written 100,000s lines of code and released 9 different commercial
products over the last 15 years, and Newton's method is far from being in my
working memory.

Now, if you ask about best practices in shipping software...

~~~
pjscott
Easier to remember is the bisection method: essentially, a binary search for
where the graph crosses the x-axis. It's what I would have pulled out if I got
asked the square root problem in an interview:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisection_method>

~~~
sgk284
Interestingly enough, I recently wrote a post explaining how to take a binary
search and derive Newton's method from it:
<http://stevekrenzel.com/articles/newtons-law>

It's a fairly straight-forward transformation.

------
greedoshotlast
I'd have to agree with your point:

"Most of them are doable but I think they are probably missing amazing
developers that may not know how to solve those problems, but they are capable
of solving real-life problems (fix this bug, port this library, refactor this
code...)."

I do believe some startups are missing out on some amazingly talented
developers by making this your rubric. Some people just don't some solve
puzzles well, in the same way some people don't perform stellar on tests, but
does that mean they are not capable of writing great code. Not at all. I've
met some stellar coders who do not solve timed puzzle or timed tests well.

Will someone please explain to me exactly why solving a puzzle is a indicator
of potential workplace success. Do you want to hire puzzle solvers or actual
developers? Should I spend my time improving my puzzle solving skills or
churning out code that solves real-life problems?

~~~
devs1010
I agree, its utter nonsense for the most part, it seems some companies just
want you to jump through a bunch of hoops and to make you feel stupid. I think
having you work on a small contracted project or something related to the
business domain would be a lot more useful.

~~~
buss
That would probably be more useful, but it doesn't scale. An interview like
that takes up a ton of resources and can leave a bad impression on a
candidate.

Not only are you paying for devs to help and evaluate the candidate, you are
doing this over a much longer period than a traditional interview, _and_ you
have to pay the candidate for the work they did, even if you're going to throw
it out.

Nobody wants to force candidates to jump through hoops or make them feel
stupid. That's a recipe for bad word-of-mouth and never hiring good devs. When
I conduct interviews, I always try to make people feel like they did an OK
job. I don't want them to get off the phone thinking they did really poorly. I
try hard to seem impartial, but that's often quite difficult to do.

The root problem is that nobody knows what the hell they're doing in
interviews. We don't know the best way to evaluate candidates, so we try
various things that are ineffective or wasteful. Eventually we'll figure it
out.

~~~
devs1010
if its for web dev, make them do something that has a web UI, give specific
contraints and then write an automated integration test for it (such as using
selenium), run this on the incoming submissions, only review the ones that
pass, this is just a quick idea... there are ways to automate this....

------
wyclif
This thread depresses me; I just read every comment.

As an American, the visa stuff makes me sad, because it tells me that the
system is broken. But what really gets to me, as a newbie developer, is the
interview and hiring commentary. It makes me feel like there's just no hope
for somebody like me-- I don't have a CS degree and come from the world of
humanities and liberal arts. The furthest I went with math in Uni was
Discrete. I don't take tests well, and I'm no good with heavy duty algorithmic
methodology (though I do know some of them). I don't have any formulae
memorized. I tend to think of programming like I do writing: I have great
grammar, punctuation, and spelling.

I'm afraid I would fail miserably at these gauntlet-style tests applied by big
SV companies. I love technology and I love building things and what I'm doing
now, but the path of achievement and improvement professionally from novice to
indispensible pro often seems cloudy to me. I think our culture needs to spend
more time and money on apprenticeship and helping less experienced developers
reach that next rung on the ladder. I'm happy that there seems to be some
movement now in that direction, with Khan Academy, Codecademy, Code Year, &c.

~~~
nir
Don't let it get to you. The best developers I've worked with didn't come from
CS background at all.

Employers worth working for will know to look at what you've built and your
passion creating/learning rather than whether you can quote a square root
function from memory.

We're fortunate: if you wanted to get a job as a lawyer you couldn't just go
and win some cases to prove your ability. But developers can always build
something cool to show what they can do. It won't get you to Google or IBM,
but it'll get you to any startup worth its salt.

~~~
wyclif
Thanks. Does Google still demand CS degrees? I ask because I can think of
several people doing dev there now that don't.

~~~
objclxt
Not if you're recruited, no. I've had on-sites at Google for coding positions,
and my degree is in visual arts! I suspect if you're just sending in an
application to the site they may use degree subject just to filter out the
insane number of applications they get.

------
Brajeshwar
Legally, you cannot seek employment while you're in US (B1 Visa). Hell, you're
not even supposed to work and be paid while in the US. You can be reimbursed
for travel, accommodation, food, etc. You can work if you're work is in
agreement while you were in your country (outside US) but came to US to talk
to your client, blah blah.

Yes, April 1 is the day H1 Applications are officially opened for filing for
worker coming in from October 1. However, with the recent lack of demands,
blame the US economy and a much more strict Immigration rules, you're likely
to be able to apply till end of year or even more. Last year's quota was
available till late November if I can remember correctly (2010's quota was
available till Feb of 2011).

But, do not wait for April 1, get your lawyer (or the company's lawyer) to
start the paperworks and be ready before April 1. That way, you're likely to
know the result earlier.

Of course, founders (executive roles) can look at L1 for a better alternative
Visa than the H1.

Note: Your lawyer will also advised you to leave US soil before applying for
your H1 else you're complicating yourself. Translation, you're soliciting
yourself (being interviewed, meeting prospective employer) and that is not
allowed.

~~~
ovi256
Given that the H1B must be sponsored by an employer, how are you supposed to
find one if you shouldn't "solicit", go to interviews, meet people ?

Is this a catch-22 ? Nobody ever got legally an H1B ?

~~~
galadriel
One way would be to that the companies interview you in your countries. This
usually happens with on-campus recruitment.

Other way is that you are on some other visa (other than B-1), that does
allows you to solicit, give interviews, etc. For example at the end of F-1
study visa, you can go around and shop for some time to get a job, and the
company will then sponsor for your H1B.

~~~
GuiA
Actually, at the end of an F1 visa, provided that you got a degree, you can
work under OPT for 12 months, with a possible 17 months extension if you're in
STEM.

At the end of those (12+17) months you can seek H1B.

------
praxxis
It's worth noting that the H1B is not the only type of visa that exists for
hiring developers. Australians are able to use the E3, which is like a H1B but
only available to Australians. Consequently it's easier to get, as long as you
have a degree/work experience.

~~~
cletus
I came here to post this because most people don't know about it.

It has some key differences to the H1B however:

\- It is a 2 year visa (H1B is 3 year) and renewable _indefinitely_ (typically
H1Bs allow one renewal);

\- The E3 by default is a multiple-entry visa;

\- Renewing the visa inside the US is a huge pain. It takes months from USCIS
and it's more expensive than obtaining a new visa (which can only be done
outside the US);

\- You don't renew your visa, you renew your _status_. This means if you leave
the US after the visa expires but your status has been renewed you have to get
a new visa anyway;

\- The H1B visa requires a labor certification for the position and "proof"
that you were unable to find a domestically qualified candidate. The E3 visa
only requires the labor certification so has a much lower barrier to entry.

~~~
spearo77
Technically, you can't renew an existing E3 visa. You must re-apply, and as I
learned a few months ago going through the process, the subsequent visas will
be E3R. Also, and E3D is apparently easy to obtain. It allows "dependents"
(spouse, children) to accompany you to the US, even permitting them a small
amount of part time work.

In addition, an E3 does not allow "dual intent". i.e. you may not seek
permanent status in the US while holding an E3 visa. This means no Green Card
applications, including the Green Card Lottery.

One other thing that may not be unique to the E3, but is worth understanding
is that your tenuous presence in the US is bound to the employment quite
tightly. If you quit your job, or are let go (startup winds up, etc), you must
exit the US within 10 days. That's 10 days to pack up your things and leave
the country.

~~~
praxxis
Interesting, I've read conflicting reports about dual intent - do you have any
sources? I'd provide mine but it would require a lengthy google session to
retrace my steps :)

~~~
semerda
<http://canberra.usembassy.gov/e3visa.html>
[http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/moving/e3-visa-
austral...](http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/moving/e3-visa-australia/)

There is a way around it on E3 but also a high chance the consular officer
will decline you. Best to get a green card on a H1B. Use E3 as a way in (for
Aussies), then transfer to H1B and apply for Green Card IF you believe its
worth it. Remember the US government can tax you up to 10 years after you have
given your green card back should you want to go home..

~~~
pavelkaroukin
obviously off-topic, but could you please clarify (and may be post some
links?). Does this means, that if I now cancel my greencard and leave usa back
to my home country, up to 2022 usa irs will have some rights on my income?

~~~
semerda
Correct!

[http://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-
advice/citizenship-s...](http://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-
advice/citizenship-surrender.html)

If you move back to say Australia there are still negative tax consequences in
so far as some Australian tax strategies that are quite beneficial will have
those benefits negated when the US tax system is brought into account.

This will vary from individual to individual so seek a professional tax agents
advise for your situation.

~~~
Nick_C
Is that more of a "who cares, I'm in Australia now", or will the Aust. Tax
Office support the US IRA by disallowing deductions?

------
nir
This often baffles me, as a foreigner in America (currently in a position
where I occasionally hire people).

The American employee is probably the least protected in the West. Firing is
about as simple & cheap as it gets outside of an Indonesian sweatshop. Many
start as contractors anyway. The upside should have been that companies would
be quicker to hire. Instead sprung a weird culture of "the four hour
interview" (sometimes several of these).

There's actually not that much you can find out about someone before hiring
them: "Show me a piece of code you've written" - hopefully it's on GitHub or
similar, ideally forked by some other people too - "Tell me about some design
decisions you made when building this". You should also try to gauge
personality, motivation, curiosity and chemistry.

That's about all you'll know, regardless of how convoluted your process. But
fortunately you're not in France, so if it doesn't work out you can always go
your separate ways.

When companies take too long to hire it usually indicates fear of making
decisions. Interviewers are afraid to say someone's a good/bad fit. The CTO is
afraid to look bad for hiring the wrong person. It's probably not going to be
a fun place to work if you want to create new things.

------
peacemaker
Hey I've got a green card and I'm having major problems, not really sure why.
Just today I was rejected from a job where I absolutely aced the interview
process. No feedback as to why but I'm thinking there is something lost in
translation. I'm from the UK, been coding C++ for over 10 years and love it,
even coding in my spare time. When I meet people at interviews I get good
feedback, answer 99% of the questions no problems and generally do well. Yet
still, for some reason and despite the massive demand for software engineers,
I'm just not getting anything. Never had this problem in the UK... but just
wanted to let you know that it seems you're not alone.

~~~
christkv
we are hiring system level people at 10gen to work on mongodb so if you are
interested ping me christkv at 10gen

~~~
peacemaker
Will do, thanks!

------
ntkachov
I want to know what the stigma is over remoting. I know 37signals has quite a
few remote engineers and they are doing quite well. There are loads of good
engineers literally all over the country. But for some reason the Bay area
would rather spend twice as much looking for local engineers than just hiring
ones that are on the other side of the country. What gives?

~~~
aspir
Having remote workers requires a very different operation style and a lot of
trust in yourself as a manager, trust in your workers, and trust in the
technology you're leveraging to communicate. Can you as the manager lead from
afar -- its harder than you might think. You can trust workers to actually
work, you can just let them go for not doing so. But it's harder to trust your
remote workers to engage with the company and their peers digitally. It's not
easy. Also, the technology may be a pain to use, and kill any good intentions
or habits you may have started.

The similar problem with remote is that the manager and their team must
consciously prevent the "silence" the author alluded too. Likely, the silence
was not intentional. People get distracted in "realspace" and easily can
neglect remote worker. In order to have a remote team be viable, you have to
overcome this barrier. That's where the trust/competence of all parties comes
into play.

~~~
smallblacksun
There are other problems with remote workers. You can't have a face-to-face
conversation. A remote worker can't go into a coworkers office and help track
down a tricky bug. These issues can be alleviated to some extent by email,
phones, and video-conferencing, but those things require a fair amount of work
to set up and still aren't the same as having the person in the office.

------
Void_
Hey, 20y old programmer here. I feel like I could never pass an interview with
these brain teasers.

Also, I've never really had an interview. And I've had some pretty good jobs,
but I never got them for solving math problems.

Seems to me it requires a person that falls in one of these categories:

\- having a job that includes solving math problems \- I'm web/mobile \-
motivated enough to prepare for it (I could believe that) \- I would probably
do this if I wanted the job \- people who are so freakishly smart they can
solve it right away \- This is my idea of Google engineers, but it's not me \-
people who have fun solving math problems \- I love to see things working, so
not me

What do you think is the best strategy to increase my chances if I ever get to
do an interview like that?

~~~
ntkachov
I'm in the same boat as you (20,web/mobile). I've done my fair share of
interview and here's what I've found:

Anything that's worth doing involves a heavy amount of math. Most of my day is
spend doing UI and I tend to deal with a heavy amount of math each day. So I
don't know what you mean by "I'm web/mobile" but unless you are purely a
designer*, your doing math.

The math that they ask at interviews usually doesn't involve anything that
isn't reasonably expected to be in an algorithms book. To that extent they
usually avoid some of the more specialized algorithms. eg, I've had BSTs but
not Red-black trees but it's not unusual to have a question on RBTs depending
on the company.

Other than knowing your algos really well that's about it.

------
oscardelben
I'm going through the process myself, and getting to work in the US is
extremely complicated. Whenever I talk with local people (even immigrants) how
hard it is to get a visa in the US nobody believes me, but sadly it's the
truth. Remote workers is not the solution though, you should be able to get a
visa easily for a highly specialized job.

------
triggit
If you want an H1-B, you need to apply to start work on October 1. We didn't
even put in an application for our H1-B candidate until September and he
received his H1-B in early October. Clearly just another demonstration of the
USAs primitive immigration policy!

You also have to be very careful coming to San Francisco to look for a job and
then applying for an H1-B ...theoretically that is against 'the rules' so make
sure both you and your future employer are comfortable with the situation.

I'd say try again next summer, I'd bet you find success. The $5K for an H1-B
is nothing for a great dev!

------
kokey
I've had similar things happen to me. The best approach is to be on top of how
the visa works, the quotas, the timings and the best visa agencies a potential
employer should use to get you in. Often companies assume it's going to be
easy and pull out after making commitments based on that assumption (and also
go silent, like in my case)

That said, the author seems to be quite employable, I hope someone spots him
for some remote work or lets him join a branch somewhere in the EU and
transfer him across on an L1 visa.

~~~
masylum
Right now I'm currently working at teambox.com, I just wanted to share my
experience.

------
happywolf
Agree. I am currently hiring in Shanghai and even though the salary my company
offers is way above market average (it even surpasses the average in
Singapore), but I am still having a _very_ hard time to find experienced
candidates with more than 5 years of software engineering experience. No, my
coding questions are straight forward and no tricks embedded. I do ask some
open-ended engineering questions, just to see if a candidate can narrow down
the solution space by posing assumptions.

~~~
zrgiu_
please, details

~~~
happywolf
Details on..?

~~~
smokinn
I imagine he wants company name/links to job postings.

------
uptownben
It's been my experience that even without the visa issue, US companies tend to
shy away from hiring remote talent. I am a US citizen with a solid mobile
development background, and have gotten great responses from companies that
have reviewed my resume, until they realize that I currently live outside the
US. It seems that while the visa process may be an issue, getting over the
"hurdle" of hiring remote workers still seems to be a major issue also.

------
devsys
Not an uncommon situation in my experience. Hiring in the valley has never
been less skillful or less transparent. Even if you are not a developer and
you do have many successful projects you still have to answer sometimes
rediculous questions from people who really don't know any better.

Even professional recruiters are at a loss as to how to deal with this.

------
JOnAgain
Wow, silence. So strange. Also strange about the visa. H1-B's were 'gone' this
year (all were claimed fairly early), but they should have known that if they
had looked into it at all. Unless you've had one before, the earliest you
could start in the US is next November, but you have to be hired by April so
they can apply on your behalf.

~~~
masylum
They got other H1-B's easily before, but apparently this year they run out so
fast!

~~~
untog
It's actually more common for them to disappear quickly. I was extremely lucky
the year I got mine- there were still some available around April. As I
understand it, that's a rarity. Hooray for economic downturns?

------
fourmii
Thanks for sharing the experience. I went through the H1B visa process a
number of years ago. Although it's pretty tough being treated like you did, I
think you and possibly the offering company went into the arrangement without
enough information. I remember that the H1B pool is relatively small (in the
10's of thousands) per year. And that well connected immigration lawyers and
sponsoring companies usually exhaust that pool within the first day they are
released. After that, it's virtually impossible to get a H1B. And when you if
you're lucky enough to be able to wrangle a H1B, it's a pretty convoluted and
costly (for the sponsoring company) application process. Good luck with the
next round of H1Bs, the sponsoring company (and lawyers) need to get in
quickly! You sound like a well qualified dev, and it's a shame that the US
misses out on good talent because of an inadequate immigration system...

~~~
tompetty
A close friend (in the UK) was approached by a company (In the US) this June
with the offer of a job. The H1B process wasn't started until August and he
picked up his successful application in mid October. The quota (55,000 or so)
goes quickly, but varies by the year and can take several months to be filled
completely

------
brunosan
I went through a similar process twice. In my case it went rather smooth, but
I am a scientist not a programmer. I made this post to summarize my
experience: <http://bit.ly/zMEHfr>

~~~
galadriel
I thought NIV was usually used with application for EB2 Green card. Is there a
NIV category in H1B too?

~~~
brunosan
I went back to my Visa application. You are right. I´ll edit my post. There
are certain cases where there is no cap. The one that applies to me is "A
nonprofit research organization or governmental research organization." 8 CFR
214.2 (h) (19) (iii) (C)

My mind played tricks (back when I was researcher there was that option to
increase your chances). However I do remember that presenting a legal case
that my skills were worth was an important factor to get the H1B.

------
buss
I'm curious about the author's opinion of the puzzles he had to answer while
interviewing. I know most of us in the US are used to this style of interview,
so it would be interesting to hear more about Pau's experience.

I've been reading up about hiring and interviewing, and shockingly enough
there isn't any good research I can find on effective hiring practices. I
worry that asking puzzles and brain teasers is just a fad that isn't doing
anything to pick out the best candidates. There's no real evidence that we're
doing it right...

~~~
antninja
Personally I would reply that I'm an application developer and none of those
questions are related to my job. 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a
shit how it works. From their questions, I would say they're searching for a
low-level library developer with a strong background in mathematics.

~~~
ludwigvan
>> " 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works."

Well, it is quite important knowing how `this` works in JavaScript. See:
<http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/>

~~~
ntkachov
Also its really important to know how float works in javascript. because 0.1 +
0.2 != 0.3 in Javascript.

I don't know why "application developer" == "Don't have to know how the thing
I'm using works"

Quite frankly I can never get away from knowing how the thing I'm using works.
My greatest wish is that in 2050 we will create a computer language that has
no performance penalties and all the JITers/vms/compilers are invisible to me.
Until then I'm forced to learn all the inner workings of my languages if I
want them to run reasonably.

------
mislav
Worth noting that H1B is more difficult to get without a college degree (so
I've been told). I have no credentials and the companies I'd like to work for
don't care for them either, but unfortunately the government cares because
that's their only grading system for people (it's not like they're gonna look
at your GitHub profile).

There have been several companies in the past years that expressed their
interest in hiring me but were put away by this problem. I don't blame them, I
blame the system.

~~~
jordinl
I think it's a Bachelors degree or the equivalent years of experience, with
one year of a degree being equivalent to 4 years of work experience. So you
would need 12 or 16 years of work experience...

~~~
jurre
That's funny because in the real world I think it's more like the other way
around, 1 year of work experience is like 4 years of a degree. (Note: I'm
currently studying cs)

~~~
jordinl
Yeah, 1 year work experience > 1 degree IMO

------
jay_kyburz
how do you delay a function to the next tick in javascript?

~~~
andrewem
That phrasing isn't very precise, but I presume they mean to use setTimeout
and pass a timeout of 0 [0]. That link has some discussion of this use and
suggests using window.postMessage instead, at least on "modern browsers", for
a suitable definition of modern.

[0] <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.setTimeout>

------
michokest
Immigration is such a complicated issue – talented workers attempting to
immigrate into the country, and bureaucracy getting in the way.

~~~
rubashov
We have very high unemployment. Also, the national identity and cohesion is
swamped by a far too large influx of foreigners. There should be an
immigration moratorium. Essentially zero people should be let in until there
is robust job growth.

There should be a much longer moratorium on granting foreigners citizenship.
Immigration rates are far too high and on a course to create serious
overpopulation problems in north america.
<https://www.numbersusa.com/content/>

~~~
danieldk
It's exactly this thinking that can kill science and startups. That there is
unemployment, does not mean there is unemployment in every branch of the
industry. In branches, where there is a lack of qualified workers, you need to
take in immigrants, or you will become uncompetitive.

Also, remember that there are many people who just want to work in a different
country temporarily because it is good for their career+. E.g. here in The
Netherlands, we have a high influx of Chinese students and PhD candidates. But
nearly all of them return once they have a degree (a degree from a Western
university usually gives them good positions in China).

\+ There seems to be a widely spread belief in the US that the rest of the
world is envious, and would preferably want to live in the US. I have been in
the US very often, but I'd never want to live in the US permanently. Social
welfare, healthcare, paid leaves, pensions, etc. are so much better arranged
in West Europe.

~~~
rubashov
> this thinking that can kill science and startups

If an industry does not employ the native people in a country, or only
enriches a clique of owners, then who cares if it leaves? In any case, this
line of argument is malarkey. There is no evidence of restrictive immigration
driving away business. Typically you just get an industry with higher capital
investments and higher wages.

~~~
pjscott
> If an industry does not employ the native people in a country, or only
> enriches a clique of owners, then who cares if it leaves?

That's a pretty extraordinary premise. Do you have evidence to support the
idea that Silicon Valley only enriches a clique of owners, or that it wouldn't
employ Americans? Or is this purely hypothetical?

------
imapisit
putting my very first comment in HN here.

Does anyone have any experience or know the process with transferring from
F-1(ESL school) to H-1B?

From What I've been told the process is F-1 > OPT > H-1B but currently,I'm in
ESL school and can't get OPT.

Briefly background :BSc from Thailand computer science,6 years experience with
.Net full stack,Agile,Scrum,CMMI level 3,lately really into mobile app
development(iOS almost 1 year)

I started applying for jobs by looking on the job listing site and even post
my resume on craigslist. got several job interviews at the time apparently by
phone which both directly from company and recruiter.

overall,the interview went pretty well then last question I was asked what is
your currently work status I told them F-1 student visa.... nailed
it...Well,never get a call back.

never give up I jump in every single opportunity, read every searched result
to start my startup in USA (e.g. blueseed,startup visa act).

Went on one face-to-face job interview and finally,got a job offer as software
engineer and assistant software architect they told me that they are willing
to sponsor me for H-1B. They made a contact with one law firm and I got a
couple forwarded emails from them which being said how the process works and
how much will it cost blah..blah..blah (the company tried to show me that they
were starting the process getting me a working visa).

the law firm asked what school are you in right now I said I'm in ESL school
then they said you will get a better chance if you are not in ESL school but
either graduate school or college which majoring in any field that related to
the job.(software engineer).

This led me to my question above and I would like to know your opinion that Is
there any chance for me to get a working visa in this situation?

Thank you.

------
astrofinch
Fellow US citizens, we should be grateful for what we've got :P

------
georgieporgie
I think there's not so much a talent shortage so much as there's a shortage of
engineers who are gifted at contrived puzzle questions and willing to accept
average pay for exceptional ability.

~~~
buss
In my experience interviewing candidates for Amazon(1), there is definitely a
talent shortage. We get a surprising amount of applicants that can't write a
basic program. Personally, I reject 4/5 of all applicants at the phone screen
because they couldn't write a very simple program.

I use a collaborative code editor so I can see what the person is typing, and
I don't give trick problems. I pose the question, and ask them to think about
it before coding. Once they've landed on an acceptable solution, I ask them to
write it up. 80% of the time it's broken or they can't finish it (these
solutions should be 20 lines or fewer). On at least one occasion the answer
was copied directly from stack overflow :\\.

Trick questions are all the rage, but I'm not convinced that they actually
highlight a competent developer. The problem (in tech, not specifically at
Amazon) is we're all trying to emulate Google, and since they ask brain
teasers then we _have_ to ask them too, because it must be the one true way.

In summary, I think there is both a shortage of good devs, and contrived
puzzle questions are not actually an good for evaluating a candidate.

(1) These views expressed are my own, and not necessarily the views of Amazon
or its employees. Disclaimer added at my own discretion, not due to any
corporate policy.

~~~
onemoreact
Amazon has a terrible reputation which may distort who shows up. I have done
conducted plenty of interviews for a few company's and having a solid
reputation drastically improves the quality of candidates show up.

EX: Microsoft has middle of the road reputation and I know people that would
literary consider with them at 120k to be a better option than 140k at Amazon.

~~~
buss
That's a fair point.

There are certainly people who apply to Amazon after having made a couple
websites, thinking that Amazon is just a website so they're qualified. What
they don't see is all of the intense engineering that happens to keep that
website running. A very small portion of our engineers ever write HTML.

Amazon does have a reputation of being cheap (and it's well-deserved), which
is probably causing a lot of great devs to avoid the company entirely. That
would skew the numbers in favor of less talented devs. However, I don't
believe our rejection rate is higher than the industry average. 80% rejection
at phone screens is pretty standard.

Edit: Also, for your particular example, Microsoft was _way_ better benefits
than Amazon and a better office environment. I can't comment on pay, since I
don't know their typical payscale.

------
lucian303
3 hours max. Lol. How about 8?

As far as the interview. Stupid questions asked by stupid people who can't
tell a techie from their asshole. Should be a technical discussion not an
interrogation. Their loss.

