
Joie De Vivre: The Europeans Are Out To Lunch - davidw
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/12/13/joie-de-vivre-the-europeans-are-out-to-lunch/
======
timr
The Europeans may be out to lunch, but at least they're living a decent life
while they're eating.

It takes huge balls to look at the US right now -- banks in collapse, citizens
teetering on the edge of bankruptcy -- and claim that we're a model for the
_right_ way of doing things. The French may not work 60-hour weeks, but at
least they have the good sense to make the most of the time they've been
granted on the planet. What do most Americans live for? Buying cheap crap at
WalMart? Buying better crap than the guy next door?

I could care less that the "best" web2.0 companies are based in the US, when
those companies are _laying people off_ right now. Their former employees will
have to enter the worst job market in nearly 30 years, without health care to
protect them if they get sick, or basic social programs to keep their children
from going hungry. I think that's an awful, brutal, unfair system, and I'd
gladly trade a little bit of "competitiveness" for a bit more compassion.

~~~
pg
Your argument is indistinguishable from the arguments people used to make in
the 1970s about how life was better in the Soviet Union than the US. Sure,
their GNP per capita was lower, but they had more leisure time; their lives
were not merely devoted to piling up possessions; society had more
_compassion._

The actual fact, in hindsight, is that life in the Soviet Union was pretty
grim for the average person. It was only good for the guys who ran everything.
And that is pretty much the case in France, though on a smaller scale.

Once you leave the big tourist areas, France is pretty grubby. The median
French citizen does not live some kind of charmed, stylish life in his ample
free time. Nor is he so high-minded that he is above buying cheap crap.
Everyday life in France for the average person is much like it is for the
average person in the US, just a little poorer.

~~~
davidw
> Everyday life in France for the average person is much like it is for the
> average person in the US, just a little poorer.

That is not my experience in Italy. To take an example near and dear to that
country, the average Italian eats much better than the average American.
Indeed, the basic, raw ingredients you find in supermarkets are far better
than what you get in the US.

But it's not just that... I find that the relationships between people are
genuinely a bit better in Italy than in the US. Perhaps one of the effects of
all that "stasis" (jobs for life, people less willing to move around for jobs)
is that people really get to know one another. I have several friends in Italy
I've known for 13 years, but barely anyone in the US I've known for that long.
I've heard some people say this is also true of small towns in the US, but
I've never lived in one so I don't know how to compare it to Italy.

In short, in economic terms, you're correct, but the broader picture is more
complex, and doesn't favor the US 100%. That's not to say that one is
necessarily better... after many years of both, I guess I have a more nuanced
view. I wouldn't hesitate to say the US is better for founding startups, but
if you're just Joe Schmoe, life can be nice in Europe, too, even if you don't
have an SUV and a fancy television set like your American equivalent.

~~~
anamax
> But it's not just that... I find that the relationships between people are
> genuinely a bit better in Italy than in the US. ... I have several friends
> in Italy I've known for 13 years, but barely anyone in the US I've known for
> that long. I've heard some people say this is also true of small towns in
> the US, but I've never lived in one so I don't know how to compare it to
> Italy.

Is your living in the US experience comparable to your living in Italy
experience?

Lots of folks in the US don't move for jobs, etc,

Also, it seems somewhat odd to compare Italy to the parts of the US that it
isn't much like. The US isn't the coasts/urban areas any more than Italy is
Europe. Italy is, perhaps, like Minnesota (except smaller and warmer).

------
ojbyrne
Using eBay buying Skype and Sun buying MySql as proof of the superiority of
the US system seems a little tenuous, since both those American companies seem
to be headed down fast (while the European ones produce actual quality
products), and the ease of buying out foreign competitors was largely due to
the availability of easy money that's at the heart of the current credit
crisis. Meanwhile the larger trend, due to the US's status as the world's
largest debtor, has been the other way - foreigners buying up US companies,
despite significant regulatory barriers that the US government has put up.

~~~
nwnissen
Both Skype and MySQL originated from Scandinavia which is completely different
from southern Europe.

Can someone please define the common European properties that form the basis
of this discussion?

~~~
ojbyrne
Mike Arrington painting all of Europe with the same brush.

------
symptic
This post and the video sickened me. I think everyone had good points, but the
panel (people we're supposed to respect?) would yell and change topics when
someone made an actual valid point.

The one comment about 'Americans need to appreciate life and Europeans need to
work better' is the best argument in the entire video and it was looked over.
Arrington is blind to say the Americans had the best stage presence. Le Meur
was the most reasonable I think through the whole thing and he was cast aside.
Why? Because he's french.

Seems to me the American panelists (Feldman aside) only see the world how they
want to. There are great people everywhere, and the mentality they exhibited-
focusing purely on winning and being efficient-shows their lack of
comprehension into what matters most, both in life and business.

No matter how efficient you are or how much you want to win, it's important to
have a level head to be able to step back and appreciate the things around
you. Shoving your face in your work 12+ hours a day will make you miss half
your life. I don't know about most of you guys, but I learn the most living
life as compared to reading blogs and business articles.

------
iamelgringo
I was talking to skmurphy this week at the Hackers and Founders meetup this
week. He said that his business is booming (consulting for early stage
entrepreneurs). His quote, "We're working with a lot of guys who had no idea
they were becoming consultants."

There's also going to be a lot of pain and suffering, but there's also a lot
of people who start businesses from the ashes of their lost jobs.

------
joubert
I find it insightful that just two lines down from this post (currently) on
the front page of HN is a post "I don't want to work very hard" and it has a
score of 188. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=394609>

~~~
jbjohns
It was made by an American, so what is the insight it gave you? That maybe
America doesn't have a good work/life balance and it's starting to bubble up?

------
fauigerzigerk
Don't watch the vid. It's a bunch of boring people exchanging well rehearsed
arguments about nothing more than cliches.

~~~
davidw
Oops, I didn't even notice there was a video. I pretty much completely ignore
videos online unless I'm actively looking to watch something on youtube. I see
99% of them as a waste of my time.

~~~
kschrader
You are clearly not part of the target market for Seesmic. Although I'm not
sure who is, to tell you the truth.

------
danw
From the comments:

 _"Bundling all europeans into one category has never been a sign of smart to
me. "_

------
petercooper
Forget the entrepreneurial culture. It's there in Europe. The problem when it
comes to the Web is the culture of the _consumers_. Europeans are generally,
in relation to their American counterparts, technophobic and less experimental
with new technologies.

Broadband wasn't even popular in the UK until 2002-2003, after a whole growth
and boom cycle had gone round in the US. Internet usage in France was
incredibly low until a couple of years ago, and progressive tech-friendly
countries like Denmark, Finland and Estonia had too small populations to have
a significant effect.

~~~
gaius
_Internet usage in France was incredibly low until a couple of years ago_

To be fair, the French were doing with Minitel what most people use the
Internet for decades earlier.

------
fbailey
Most interesting thing is probably the quality of the discussion on HN
compared to TC ...

There are some very big differences between europe and the US:

1) Funding - it's trivial to get funding in the valley compared to europe,
more former founders, more vc

2) Market Size - the US market is just bigger, of course the combined EU
market is even bigger but you need 20 marketing teams to try to work with it

3) Culture - Yes there is no start up culture comparable to the US, but that's
not that bad. The work/life balance thing is true in general, but i've never
met a european startup founder who doesn't work the weekends.

4) Failing - Failing is not that acceptable, and that's a big obstacle,
especially since you have to get more parts of your funding from banks.

5) Cluster There are only very few technology clusters and none comparable to
the valley

6) ...

------
etal
Quibble: Those 2-hour lunches with a beer or a half-bottle of wine aren't a
bad thing.

On the occasions when I've been in Europe for business, a relaxing lunch and
dinner were what made me perfectly willing to work 10-12-hour days six days a
week. In the states, with just a quick sandwich or a burrito for lunch, I'm
itching to go home by 5 p.m. to clear my head and get a decent meal. And now
that I'm back in school, I find a leisurely break in the middle of the day
puts a few more productive hours in me when I get back to the lab.

~~~
davidw
If I may write a completely frivolous comment, I would go on the record as
saying that I would just about _kill_ for a decent burrito, something which is
pretty much impossible to find in Europe.

------
axod
Maybe Europeans are out to lunch, but Britains are not. It's a completely
different culture.

~~~
puzzle-out
The Brits skip the lunch, gets in the way of drinking.

~~~
jorgeortiz85
Can you blame them? I wouldn't want to eat British food either.

~~~
axod
Try some American chocolate or bacon - chocolate is bitter without any sugar
or milk, and bacon is pretty much the rind that we throw away in the UK. There
are good and bad points everywhere though :)

The UK has excellent: sweets, ice lollies, bread, bacon, sausages, chips,
pies, pasties, chocolate etc

The US has excellent: shakes, smoothies, cookies, burgers, pizza

------
time_management
There's an important distinction. The US is racially much more heterogenous
than "Europe", but culturally fairly homogenous, because the vast majority of
immigrants want to be Americans.

To have a Silicon Valley, you've got to attract a disproportionate share of
talented and ambitious people. You need a critical mass. That's much easier to
attain in a culturally semi-homogenous country full of nomads than in the EU,
which has its people segregated into over 20 different nations. This is also
why the US has better universities. If the same linguistic and cultural
barriers existed between Montana and Massachusetts (which are culturally very
similar places, on the European scale) as do between Russia and Great Britain,
we probably wouldn't have a Silicon Valley.

By the way, European investment bankers work the same egregiously long hours
as American bankers do, and middle-of-the-road Americans would gladly take the
lives of average Europeans. There isn't a huge difference in the distributions
of drive; what differs is the level of effort expected from the rank-and-file.
Arguably, however, Americans get less from them, and the rank-and-file are so
unproductive (compared to startup founders) that this difference is
inconsequential at the big-picture level.

