
How much do hackers at the CIA/NSA/FBI make? - mcbobbington
These guys seem to be pretty good hackers. Anyone know how much they make?  Or is that classified?  If so, anybody have any idea?
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strictnein
For the NSA, they list salary ranges on the job postings.

Examples:

    
    
       Cryptographic Vuln. Analyst - Entry: $68,586 - $85,464
       Cryptographic Vuln. Analyst - Mid-Level: $79,334 - $105,663
       Computer Network Analyst  - Entry/Mid: Same
       Systems Vulnerability Analyst - Entry/Mid: Same 
       Capabilities Development Specialist - Entry/Mid: Same
      

The range for Senior positions is $94,796 - $145,629

There's also signing bonuses available, and language bonuses if you know
foreign languages that are in demand. They also adjust the pay for living in
Hawaii, since it's more expensive.

The CIA pays a little better, but it's more expensive to live near there.

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notananthem
damn thats terrible

~~~
openasocket
It's not a job you go into for the money. They're making like twice the median
income for the US, that's more than enough to live comfortably. Frankly, you
don't get involved in that line of work without some serious patriotism.

~~~
tibcdev
Not in the DC area.

~~~
openasocket
I live in the DC area and I live very comfortably on a similar salary

~~~
phaus
If you're single 105k in DC is amazing. If you have a family, you will have
everything you NEED, but you won't be living by most peoples' definitions of
"very comfortably".

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admira1Ackb4r
North of 100k, south of 200k. Assuming some level of seniority or subject
matter expertise.

After that, there is a ceiling, so most will work for private firms or
consult, making 2x, 3x, or much more.

~~~
jjguy
USG employees vs. contractor is an important distinction. Your ranges imply
your friends are contractors. See techjuice's post for USG ranges.

~~~
nataz
GS12 w/ DC metro COLA and no engineering band bonus gets just across the line
into 6 figures (103K).

Most senior technical folks (not just out of school/military, and not
supervisor/team lead level) are going to be GS12-13.

Still, (almost) no one is making 200K as a federal employee.

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emerman
Speaking from personal experience (dating an employee) I can tell you it is
not necessarily north of 100K. Most I have spoken with from NSA make less
thank 100k and that's with 5+ years at the agency, non-management.

~~~
draw_down
Yikes, hope those bennies are pretty sweet.

~~~
module0000
I don't know if they are(if military benefits are any example)... beyond the
look you get from a traffic cop after they run your info and reality dawns on
them.

~~~
scott00
Can you explain this to the unenlightened? Is employment at a national
security organization somehow indicated in the DMV database or whatever it is
that cops look you up in?

~~~
ganoushoreilly
It’s not. The only thing you may get is a official / displomatic passport for
certain overseas work, otherwise it’s not going to matter anymore than
flashing a teachers union card.

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techjuice
Hopefully the following helps, it is from research I have done comparing the
public sector to the private sector pay and compensation over time,
specifically comparing intelligence community pay to regular government agency
pay and compensation for the independent agencies (FCC, SEC, CIA, CFTC, FTC,
GSA, USPS, SSA, etc.) -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_Un...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_United_States_government)

If they are government employees they are normally paid on the regular
government GS Pay scale (title 5) - [https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-
oversight/pay-leave/salaries...](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-
oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/17Tables/html/DCB.aspx) so
the really good ones get paid up to $161,900 if they can make it past the
GS-14 pay grade.

Though, that is considered generally OK pay for a regular government job that
is not extremely high stress, quick turn around and high demand. Though to the
private sector's top hackers as many far exceed this as a senior cyber
security engineer or CISOs making up to $380,000/year + stock options + other
perks. In those cases the government also has Title 10 which limits pay to
under the president's salary (section 102 of title 3) $400,000 -
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/102](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/102).
This allows the federal government secretaries or heads of agency to be able
to pay individuals of extraordinary talent and ability the same rate as they
may pay a physician or other medical professional if that individuals salary
requirements fall outside of the regular GS pay scale and they really want
that person on board and want to pay them a competitive salary.

There is also the Senior Executive Service and other equivalents for the many
agencies that puts the individual into a senior level(SL), scientific or
professional (ST) positions. These positions may come with cash rewards up to
$25,000 with approval from OPM/White House, eligibility to be nominated for
the Presidential Rank Awards (Distinguished Rank (35% of annual basic pay) or
Meritorious rank (20% of annual basic pay) - [https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-
oversight/senior-executive-s...](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-
oversight/senior-executive-service/scientific-senior-level-positions/).

Though these positions for hackers would normally be reserved for those with
at least 10 to 20+ years in the game with extreme in depth knowledge of the
multiple operating systems, hardware and software, SCADA, Satellite, and other
embedded/private/public/military communications systems out there. This
normally means they are not just specialized in a few things, but have deep
knowledge of many systems through practical experience working with them hands
on over the years and hacking them to pieces during security audits, product
evaluations, quality assurance, security validation and testing through
reverse engineering to insure the products do what they say they do, etc.

There are also some agencies that use a pay band system 1 to 5, etc. and
normally cap out at around $157,000/year then bump up to around $120,000 to
$167,000 for their senior level positions and $120,000 to around $180,000 for
their senior executive service compensation.

So in general the best of the best in terms of government employees could be
paid up to $400,000/year under title 10 which is more of a government
contractor type position that has to be renewed regularly, highly unlikely
unless those in top positions see someone they want working for them and
really want them badly to work on the inside of government. Normally the title
10 pay is around $160,000-$300,000, so in general the bulk of hackers would
fall under the GS pay scale ranging from GS-9 to GS-14 Step 6. Anything higher
would have to be negotiated and justified during the hiring process or worked
into a promotion for those already working for the government.

~~~
sybercecurity
Just to improve that answer: SES is usually reserved for management. It is
designed to produce a general "gov't manager" able to be swapped into any
agency and manage people. It is extremely rare for any SES to do research work
directly. They usually manage a lab or similar larger organization.

The same goes for GS-14 and higher. Those ranks usually translate to
management, or it is expected that they would have some management tasks (like
team leader, etc.). Same with bands in that band 5 is usually reserved for
managers or exceptional non-managers.

In non-DoD/Intel community, the normal model for IT is having one FTE
(GS-13/14) managing a bunch of contractors, or a mix of FTEs doing specialized
work (running key systems, networks, "DevOps") and contractors doing customer
facing stuff like desktop support, etc. Can't speak for the intel community or
DoD, who do their own thing.

~~~
nataz
to add a little bit of extra inside baseball (my experience only, YMMV) -

bands (short for pay bands) in FEDERAL (not contractor) competitive service
vs. excepted service are slightly different.

Competitive service works as Band 1-4, followed by SES (senior executive
service). With excepted service (which I expect most hacker type folks to be
hired under) you don't have SES. You have Band 1-5, with Band 5 roughly = to
an SES pay grade. Excepted services essentially means you are hired in for a
special skill set, and you don't compete on the normal gov HR point system
(which includes vet preference, disability, etc.). Excepted service tends to
be used for hiring a specific person. Downside is that without competitive
status, excepted service personnel can not move laterally in government.

in both cases, band 1-4 cover the same ground as GS 1-15, but with less
stratification.

GS Grades go from 1-15, but each grade has 10 steps. GS 9 (average masters
degree education starting point) will run 42K-56K base + whatever COLA (cost
of living adjustment) you get for location. For Wash DC area COLA is +24.78%,
bumping GS 9 to 53k (step 1)-69K (step 10). Each department/team is a little
different, but most places I'm familiar with have a clear career path from
GS7-GS13. GS14 and GS15 are more slot based, and generally are management
positions.

Bands are tougher to move around in after your initial hire. It works out
better for you if you just scrap into the next highest band, it works out
worse if you land in the middle or the top of your band. Instead of step or
grade based pay bumps, the band system is an "experiment" to incorporate pay
for performance. Everyone gets their base pay (determined by band, and then
further separated into high, medium, and low), and then there is an extra pool
of money at the office level that is distributed by performance reviews. High
performers get 1.5%-3% * (base pay + COLA), with low performers getting
nothing. Without getting deeper into the weeds, most people can expect to get
a ~1%-1.5% "bonus" annually. Theoretically, the bonus system is supposed to
make up for the additional stratification of the Grade/Step system, but
because of office politics the curve is pretty flat, and the high performers
don't really see that much of a pay bump.

 __edited to add this is for FEDERAL employees. Contracting has a whole
different set of issues and rules. In general, I 'd recommend going Federal to
get experience and a clearance, then transition to contractor status later in
your career. Whereas most Fed salaries will top out at 160K-ish, contractor
salaries w/ bonus can be much higher (2x-4x). Downside is stability and
employment risk, and working for a client rather then being the client.

~~~
tapatio
COLA = Locality Pay:
[https://www.federalpay.org/gs/locality](https://www.federalpay.org/gs/locality)

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brad0
From the sounds of other posts you're making similar money to what you would
at the big 4 (5?).

I think another question to ask is what other reasons would you want to work
at these companies? The possibility to learn from other smart people? The
opportunity to work on problems you couldn't get elsewhere?

~~~
sluggg
After doing a bit of sleuthing on OP's account where did you see any
information that would suggest he is working at the big 4/5?

~~~
mcbobbington
I think by "you're" he was referring to a general person working for
government hacking agencies, not me.

~~~
sluggg
ah! you are right. Thanks for the clarification!

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ganoushoreilly
Gs scale, +engineering pay band and locality pay(if applicable). The
exceptions are military, they’re paid at comparable ranks. Most civilians
start around GS9, then get fed up and go contractor for better pay.

~~~
randcraw
Yes. I worked in the intel space and never knew a SES who wasn't a project
manager or had several direct reports. Software staff aren't SES unless they
run a group. I'd be surprised if high GS numbers (i.e. 12-14) applied to
software staff unless they had 10+ years of experience or direct reports.

~~~
ganoushoreilly
Some of the ranges I’m seeing here are “best case too” much like “google pays
200k+”. It all boils down to negotiation and open billets / funding. SES is
extremely rare even in “TAO”.

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johnpython
Whatever amount they pay you isn't worth it. Private sector pays more, has
less bureaucracy, and will help you sleep better at night.

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firesailor
I have seen well north of $200k.

~~~
sluggg
Where did you "see" this? Any source?

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