
Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced - jseliger
https://qz.com/1257151/this-electric-scooter-mayhem-sounds-just-like-when-cars-were-first-introduced/
======
ryanobjc
I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article
that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and
that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I
changed my mind.

They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations,
and they don't seem super expensive.

It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs help in
particular. I've worked at companies that had to choose between being near
bart or near caltrain to provide a shorter commute to different employees. The
time it took to walk across soma was non-trivial and annoyed people.
Ultimately the caltrain commuters used foot-powered scooters.

As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired
of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as
someone else's life on the line you're good with it. If "sidewalks" were a lot
larger, then there would be more ability to mix traffic. See: the embarcadero.

Let's work on our cities and have some fun doing it!

~~~
fstuff
>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired
of that.

I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year
now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk.

The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters.
People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you
may collide.

Also you can't see people walking out onto the sidewalk from doorways and
recessed building entrances and around corners. I see people on those scooters
going full speed on sidewalks and if someone happens to suddenly walk out
doorway they're getting hit.

When people walk out onthe street they should look both ways for cars before
stepping on the road. In my opinion it's ridiculous to expect people to peer
out of doorway stoops and look for people on scooters barreling down the
sidewalk.

~~~
imgabe
I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts
where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to
pedestrians.

That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away,
and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like
they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to
miraculously flow around them.

Forget about bikes and scooters, it's rude to other pedestrians who may be
walking faster, running, or actually paying attention to what they're doing if
you're meandering back and forth across the sidewalk and can't even hear
someone say "Excuse me". The sidewalk is for walking, yes, but that doesn't
mean it's for the exclusive use of any one individual.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there 's parts
> where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to
> pedestrians._

Yeah. I bike on the sidewalk sometimes, but when I do I consider it 100% my
responsibility to avoid pedestrians. They're not expecting me and they have no
reason to look out for me; it's my job to go slow, watch entrances, and not
scare people by blowing past 6 inches away from them.

~~~
imgabe
I tried really hard to make it clear that I _am_ looking out for them.
Apparently that was insufficient. It is made unnecessarily difficult to look
out for someone who is weaving around erratically and completely oblivious to
everything around them.

I bike on the road. I expect cars to look out for me. Nonetheless, I take
measures to make it easy for them to do that. I wear reflective gear and have
lights at night. I bike in an easily visible space. I signal where I'm going
and move in a consistent, predictable manner.

There's absolutely no reason that someone on a sidewalk shouldn't expect that
another person, whether walking or on a bike, might _also_ need to use the
sidewalk and to leave space for them to do so, or at a bare minimum, maintain
a modicum of awareness so that you can see or hear someone else approaching.

~~~
rsynnott
> There's absolutely no reason that someone on a sidewalk shouldn't expect
> that another person, whether walking or on a bike, might also need to use
> the sidewalk

Is cycling on the sidewalk legal in your location? It isn't in most places, as
far as I know.

~~~
sidlls
Don't know about the parent but it's so legal in SF and the Peninsula that
plenty of sidewalk spaces have sharrows
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking))
or signs indicating cyclists are allowed use of the path. These signs aren't
necessary for cyclists to use the sidewalk though: we're simply allowed to
unless a sign explicitly prohibits it.

Besides the point isn't that cyclists in these spaces shouldn't have to look
out for pedestrians, it's that pedestrians make it hard even for other
pedestrians to navigate and that perhaps an inequitable share of
responsibility for observing one's surroundings exists.

~~~
s17n
Don't know about the peninsula but biking on the sidewalk is illegal in SF.

------
zethraeus
This article makes some throwaway concession to the 'far less dire
consequences' but this is _huge_.

These vehicles have far fewer negative externalities than cars. People don't
die when they get hit by scooters and bikes. We can charge them with renewable
energy. They don't take space from pedestrians as cars do.

These are a huge clear good for cities. (And yes, people should gtfo the
sidewalk, companies should educate as such, and there should be tickets for
people who make others less safe.)

~~~
bigtunacan
While the death toll is fairly low and declining, just to be clear,
pedestrians do die from being stuck by cyclists.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/381...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/381013/)

~~~
cup-of-tea
The article doesn't even talk about deaths, only injuries. Compared to the
number of pedestrians killed by motor vehicles the figures seem insignificant.
More people die each year from choking.

~~~
bigtunacan
First paragraph from the article...

"The recent death of Jill Tarlov, a pedestrian killed by a bicyclist in New
York’s Central Park —the second such incident in two months—engendered a
flurry of commentary and analysis of the dangers of cyclists determined to
train for speed in one of the city’s most crowded recreational havens."

It goes on to discuss that most deaths are due to head injuries.

~~~
GoToRO
"train for speed" so it's not transport...

------
justboxing
These Electric Scooters in San Francisco have become a total nuisance.

I've seen quite a few riders ride them on the sidewalks and 1 person even ran
into a dude on a wheelchair who was trying to get onto the sidewalk after
crossing the road on his wheelchair.

The last safe place for Pedestrians and disabled persons -- the Sidewalk -- is
under attack.

The startups that have created this nuisance also park these scooters on the
sidewalk, and it routinely blocks disabled people on wheelchairs from
travelling safely on the sidewalk.

~~~
mattthebaker
Police just need to start issuing tickets. Seems like a solid and easy revenue
stream. Both riding on the sidewalk and riding without a helmet is illegal.
Haven't seen any rider wearing one.

CA Law: "An operator of a motorized scooter must be at least 16 years old,
possess a valid drivers license or instruction permit, and wear a helmet.

A motorized scooter may be operated on a bicycle path, trail or bikeway, but
not on a sidewalk. On the roadway, it must be operated in the bicycle lane, if
there is one. On roads without bicycle lanes, motorized scooters may operate
where the speed limit is 25 mph or less, and shall be ridden as close to the
right hand curb as possible, except to pass or turn left."

~~~
theptip
This is 100% the right answer.

If someone rents a car and then parks it on the sidewalk, the renter (not the
rental company) gets the ticket.

Why should scooters be different? If scooters start getting tickets for being
parked in stupid places, then those tickets will get passed on to the riders,
and they will stop it. If riders get tickets for riding on the sidewalk, they
will stop it. Etc.

The existing laws are sufficient to cover this situation, they just need to be
enforced.

~~~
randyrand
You should give them a shot.

------
notaki
I'm all for having more scooters parked on sidewalks and less Uber/Lyft
vehicles blocking bike Lanes and adding to downtown traffic.

The scooters are much needed, obviously. But, as usual, the media and city are
crying about it and all you read in the news is "scooter mayhem" like this is
the scooter apocalypse. Find something else to write and worry about, Jesus.

~~~
closeparen
Scooters going painfully slow in bike lanes will not be terribly different
from cars stopping in them. Either way, you have to merge into traffic to
pass.

~~~
coatmatter
I bet that in places such a Utrecht and Groningen, scooters are much less in
vogue since the default _option_ available to both young and old is the
bicycle.

This is another case of Silicon Valley looking at using more tech to solve a
societal and political problem. However, unlike Tesla/Uber/Waymo et al, it's a
little more grounded.

~~~
closeparen
One of the main uses cases for these scooters is to connect to Caltrain, which
doesn't have anywhere close to 1:1 bike racks:seats.

------
woolvalley
Replace these scooters with bicycles and all of the same issues apply.

Imagine if real self locking bicycles were somehow theft proof and private
citizens started putting their bicycles willy nilly everywhere. That is the
only new issue that is generated by these companies, and creating more parking
for bikes and other low speed vehicles is the eventual solution.

The fact that these dockless bike companies have effectively created the
'theft proof' bike is pretty amazing on it's own.

~~~
seanp2k2
Not sure how much of it is that they're theft-proof vs anyone who wants to
steal one either already has or doesn't care enough to do so. You could e.g.
line the inside of a U-Haul with RF-blocking material and load up a ton of
these, strip the radios in there, and sell them, but if you were to try this
at a large enough scale it would likely be worth them going after you. If they
lose a few here and there it's probably just cheaper and easier to move on. It
looks like they're using either [http://www.segway.com/products/consumer-
lifestyle/es2-kicksc...](http://www.segway.com/products/consumer-
lifestyle/es2-kickscooter) or [https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-
Fold-n-Carry-Ultr...](https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-
Ultra-Lightweight-electric/dp/B076KKX4BC/) for most of these companies. The
resale value probably isn't great for beat-up rental ones, especially if they
still have any of the company branding on them or have e.g. obviously ripped
apart electronics (or both).

Bicycles can be parted out if they're expensive, or re-sold on Craigslist very
easily. Many less people are in the market for these things, so it's probably
just not worth the risk + small expected profits to steal them.

~~~
woolvalley
It's 'theft proof' as in insurance. You don't have to worry about it being
'stolen' from you or damaged because your only responsible for it when your
using it.

It's not real theft & vandalism-proof, but it effectively is.

------
HenryBemis
I so very much disagree with the article.

Someone with a car can kill 10 people and himself-herself.

Someone with scooter will most likely die in an impact with most vehicles. It
is most likely someone can break a leg, than have thousand deaths per year.
But hey, humanity has proven common sense wrong befoe.

------
analogmemory
My only problem with scooters is the assholes who ride on the sidewalk and
then run into you.

I could care less if they want to ride in the street without a helmet. Good
luck with that.

~~~
coatmatter
There's a bit of research that suggests helmets can encourage risk
compensation and have people traveling faster. For a glimpse into a possible
dire future, Australia and New Zealand are one of the very few countries in
the world with mandatory bicycle helmet laws - the results have been dire.
(See also the helmet law debate - there's probably not enough room in this
thread to go into all of that.)

But yes, arseholes are arseholes wherever they might be. It's not limited to
people on smaller lower-powered wheels.

------
jl2718
The maximum deceleration of a vehicle is g times the tangent of the angle from
the center of mass to the front wheel contact point.

On a sidewalk, a safe stopping distance is about 1 meter. Because of the small
angle, safe speed for scooters and skateboards is about the same as walking.

Also, the small non-pneumatic wheels are easily stopped by cracks and small
objects.

They are far less safe than bicycles, which are excluded from sidewalks, and
riding them on roads with vehicle traffic is suicidal. I guarantee that this
will be born out by accident data soon.

I’ve spent years of my life on the road by my own power, and I am certain that
I would be dead many times over if I were on a scooter instead of a bicycle.

When the streets of SF are wide open because the cars got kicked out, ride
whatever you want. Until then, ride a bike. Ride a big long frame with steel-
spoked wheels. E-bike if you must, and don’t mind me trying to keep up with
you with an aging meat motor.

~~~
coatmatter
> On a sidewalk, a safe stopping distance is about 1 meter. Because of the
> small angle, safe speed for scooters and skateboards is about the same as
> walking.

The safe stopping distance depends on your line of sight around corners - if
you're riding far enough from entrances and exits, at an appropriate pace, the
stopping distance can be either greater or smaller provided you anticipate
enough.

> Also, the small non-pneumatic wheels are easily stopped by cracks and small
> objects.

But much less so than normal kick scooters or skateboards. Skateboards are a
worse in that regard, and scooters much better with the wheels being larger
and in-line.

> They are far less safe than bicycles, which are excluded from sidewalks, and
> riding them on roads with vehicle traffic is suicidal. I guarantee that this
> will be born out by accident data soon.

It depends on whether you take them on a daredevil mountain descent at peak
hour or not. If you want to look at the data, you might realise that while
sidewalk riding in San Francisco is prohibited (but not well enforced, perhaps
because police have better priorities), it is _permitted_ in the states north,
Oregon and Washington State. It's also permitted in many places around
Australia - in fact, often times, where a shared path ends and a footpath
begins is a blurred line. Where sidewalk/footpath riding is permitted,
cyclists are largely as safe around pedestrians whether the pedestrian is on
the footpath or the road.

> I’ve spent years of my life on the road by my own power, and I am certain
> that I would be dead many times over if I were on a scooter instead of a
> bicycle.

Many times over, only if you don't learn from the first instance. Not everyone
proceeds forth with the same unchanged attitude after their first early
mishap.

> When the streets of SF are wide open because the cars got kicked out, ride
> whatever you want. Until then, ride a bike. Ride a big long frame with
> steel-spoked wheels. E-bike if you must, and don’t mind me trying to keep up
> with you with an aging meat motor.

The best way to encourage rider uptake is to build the appropriate _balanced_
infrastructure - that will mean taking away "free" on-stree car parking spaces
along with other measures. America's experiment with "vehicular cycling" has
long failed and people are simpy no longer riding, but instead spending more
time on the sofas and chairs. That's the greatest health burden right now
going forward.

The electric scooters are a symptom of a larger problem, not the cause.

------
habosa
I've ridden a few of these. They're pretty fun and cheap. I actually like the
model for trips in the 1mi range. In an ideal world full of well behaved
people and good intentions I'd keep them around.

But am I the only one that has a problem with the complete hubris shown by
these companies. Raise $100M, buy thousands of $500 Chinese scooters, drop
them on the city sidewalks and hope everyone just deals with it.

Why can you disrupt life in a city just because you have a lot of VC money?
What about when all the competitors come and we're drowning in low quality
scooters?

And let's not kid ourselves that these scooters will even remain loved. Right
now they're unsustainability cheap and vulnerable. Bird and Spin are
undoubtedly bleeding money. When they come back and triple the prices and
change the model we'll see we've sold our sidewalks for nothing.

~~~
randyrand
Their profit margins are huge, though.

I bought an electric scooter for $300 (Segway ES1). It costs near nothing to
charge.

These scooters make back their money in a mere 40 hours of use. A 1 week car
rental would have to cost $35,000 to have the same profit margin.

~~~
coatmatter
People who don't get around under their own steam (even if electrics are
involved) don't see it the way you and I do.

While they don't blink at the costs of car registration, fuel and maintenance
cost (not to mention initial outlay), a few hundred dollars on a bicycle or
scooter is seen as quite a leap of faith _because_ they're unsure about
whether they can adapt to fit it into their lives.

Anglophone societies are very blinkered into thinking that car is king.

------
xivzgrev
I think bird fucked up in SF by not giving clear-enough guidelines to their
users (or not taking it seriously enough). People just need to treat these
like a bike, basically.

1) ride in the street, not on the sidewalk. The only thing that should be on
sidewalks are people walking and wheelchairs (disabled people walking). 2)
park it next to an area where people expect bikes to be parked, like a bike
rack or parking meter or street post. but not next to a fire hydrant,
someone's home/garage, in the middle of the walkway, etc. I've seen all three
of those.

~~~
scrumbledober
They make it incredibly clear through the app before you can unlock a scooter
what the rules are. They have a very well designed and simple to follow few
pages of rules you have to swipe through. The problem is enforcement. Who
cares if the app tells you to not ride on the sidewalks if you've seen a
hundred people doing it as they ride past police officers and don't get any
tickets?

------
odammit
Are they the new modern moloch?

If you don’t know about the terror of cars being introduced this 99pi episode
is pretty good.

[https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-
modern...](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-modern-
moloch/)

------
rdiddly
Sort of an empty comparison to the automobile. Similar in the fact that it's
being thrown out into the world without a plan, and there's no space for them,
and there's an outcry. Different because they're a lot less deadly.

The proliferation of private automobiles is a net negative for the world, so
if these scooters displace (i.e. take away space from) cars, they're good. If
they displace, hassle or inconvenience pedestrians or cyclists in any way,
they're bad.

I don't hold out a lot of hope for them to change the world per se. I mean
sheeeit, people trying to ride bikes at 15mph (which were the original reason
for paving roads, no less) have been fighting for a space that's not filled
with 40mph cars or 3mph walkers for years and getting mostly nowhere. To
properly integrate scooters you would need basically a two-lane bike lane -
one lane for bikes (10-25mph) and one for scooters (less than that, I assume).
In a lot of places the automotive demographic has such a stranglehold on the
polity, we can't even get a one-lane bike lane.

The only way it would work is if they end up being ragingly popular... like
maybe if something like 1/3 to 1/2 of all trips started being done by scooter,
that would get the attention of the scooter-lane-planners. Though there is
still the problem of "where does the capital come from?" when every
municipality is seemingly always broke ever since 2008...

~~~
woolvalley
Electric scooters go the same speed range of 10-25mph. All of these relatively
new electric mini-vehicles go as fast or faster than a bicycle.

For stability reasons the sweet spot is about 10-15mph, which is the speed of
a typical bicycle rider. Bike riders should see them as allies in getting
better bike infrastructure, because they are pretty much equivalent.

~~~
scrumbledober
To add to this, I bike commute in downtown SF and have been stuck behind slow
cyclists many more times than I have been stuck behind electric scooters. On
the flats I can hit a higher speed than them if I'm working hard just because
I think their max speed is governed, but I don't think the average cyclist is
capable of sustained 250W output for too long.

------
dredmorbius
On auto safety, the perception is that safety improvements came late, and
improved dramatically at some particular point in time, though that is
variously given: 1950s and safety belts (as they were called), 1960s and crash
tests, 1970s and speed laaws, 1980s and airbags / ABS, etc.

The truth is that on a miles-travelled basis, early gains were greatest,
followed by a remarkably steady rate of halved risk roughly every 20 years,
starting around 1925 and continuing to present.

The chart below begins in 1921. I recall one I'd found previously dating to
~1910 showing an even more pronounced early decline, halving in ten years,
before the 20-year trend was established.

[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TIp8lXB5h2I/AAAAAAAAOW...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TIp8lXB5h2I/AAAAAAAAOW8/fmXi_SCP-
jw/s1600/highway2.jpg)

A lesson on seeveral grouds: perception/impressions vs. reality, the power of
gradual improvement, diminishing returns, underappreciated early gains, and
the power of standardisation, regulation, and liability.

Which may also relate to the scooter debate.

------
kentbrew
I'm frankly amazed these things aren't instantly stripped for their batteries.
How long does an unattended bicycle last in San Francisco? Minutes?

~~~
linkregister
What's the secondary market for batteries?

------
vaughanb
Surely a large part of the problem is thinking it's OK to leave the the hire
scooters on public property wherever is convenient for the customer. Can't
wait for the flying-vehicle startup.

It's another tragedy of the common.

BTW "sidewalks" are also known as "footpaths" and "roads" as "carriageways" in
countries that speak British English.

~~~
coatmatter
Just like "free" car parking, but to a much smaller scale.

------
frgewut
The only thing I don't understand is the renting - these things are meant for
owning them. You can store scooter under desk in office or under bed in condo.

------
lonk
In this click bait only 6 short paragraphs are about scooters. Remanining 8
are about cars history.

~~~
coatmatter
Here's better-written and more direct piece on the topic:
[http://haveago.city/disgraceful-dockless-
drama/](http://haveago.city/disgraceful-dockless-drama/)

------
physcab
I hate these scooters with a passion. People litter them all over, I even saw
one tossed into the street.

~~~
gkoberger
I think that the people using the scooters and the people putting them in the
street/garbage/water/trees are two different groups of people.

~~~
coatmatter
I'd wager that a large proportion of those people who dump them like garbage
are intoxicated. Perhaps it's alcohol that is the bigger problem?

------
Tiktaalik
> Today’s startups are promoting their products by following the same playbook
> as cars: get them on the street, and figure out how to regulate them
> afterward.

> But cities are moving quicker this time. Austin and San Francisco have
> seized dozens of them. San Francisco has sent a cease and desist letter
> (paywall) to one company decrying the scooters as a “public nuisance” and
> “endangering public health and safety.”

Good. It's a shame that we weren't able to do the same with cars before they
ruined North American cities.

~~~
walshemj
You know that horse's and horse riding are highly risky sports and also came
with health risk's - the amount of horse poop in London as it grew was a major
health issue.

A parked car doesn't suddenly get spooked and lash out with its hooves does
it.

~~~
s0rce
While true, cars and horses aren't the only options. Trains, buses, bicycles,
scooters, etc. also don't spook, take up less space, can reduce pollution and
increase capacity.

------
pkulak
Now we just need to start arresting people for jaywalking across the sidewalk.

~~~
coatmatter
I'm not sure if this is a remark in jest, but here are a few good pieces on
the topic of jaywalking:

1\. [https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2012/04/invention-
jay...](https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2012/04/invention-
jaywalking/1837/)

2\. [https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/11/where-jaywalking-
is-n...](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/11/where-jaywalking-is-not-a-
crime/)

3\. [https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/on-a-
sus...](https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/on-a-sustainable-
street-there-are-no-jaywalkers)

~~~
pkulak
Absolutely jest.

------
thejerz
PRESS RELEASE AS OF Apr 25, 2018@9:03:38 PM PT

~~~

Hello,

My name is Nate Matherson, and my company runs The Student Loan Report.

We created The Student Loan Report in 2016 as a source for news on the student
loan industry, financial aid, and scholarships. At the time, we were building
a marketplace for student loans, LendEDU, and felt we could contribute to the
conversation. Especially because each of us had deep and personal experience
finding student loans from trustworthy lenders. Personally, I graduated from
college with over $50,000 in student loan debt. Today, I am still working to
repay the majority of that debt.

As we prepared to launch The Student Loan Report, we debated who should author
it, and felt that it was really a blend of our personal experiences and
perspectives that would create the best source material, so we created a pen
name of “Drew Cloud,” and conceived a background that we felt personified a
lot of the perseverance we hoped to inspire with The Student Loan Report. When
we pictured what Drew Cloud looked like, we pictured a friend of ours from
college, so we used his photo (with his permission) to round out the pen name.

We used this character of “Drew Cloud” as the primary author of the site -- a
shared pen name through which we could share experiences and information
related to the challenges college students face while funding their education.
There were also other pen names used to publish content on the site. The
thoughts, stories, and opinions come from the actual experiences of our team.
We have always held ourselves to high standards of content quality -- all of
the data we published on The Student Loan Report was vetted, accurate, and
licensed from the related polling companies.

Now that you have that background, and now that I have been able to reflect on
how we got here, I want to apologize for a couple things:

(1) We never disclosed that “Drew Cloud” was a pen name that (represented a
group of us writing these posts. I really regret that. (We are proud of our
personal backgrounds and where they have brought (us today. We should’ve
chosen to be clear about who was authoring the (posts. We have made a change
on the site, effective immediately, to (use each author’s real name for every
post. We will also (retroactively notate posts by Drew Cloud.

(2) We have always worked to keep editorial separation between The (Student
Loan Report and our other site, LendEDU.com, which is our (main business.
However, there have been nine Student Loan Report (articles that mention
LendEDU. We now realize that we should’ve had a (disclosure that the sites
were owned by the same company.

We are deeply sorry for any confusion or frustration our readers may feel.
Please reach out to us at hello@studentloans.net with any questions or
concerns about past content.

Source: [https://studentloans.net/](https://studentloans.net/) (homepage)

~~~
grzm
You likely intended to post this to a different submission:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16926859](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16926859)

------
dayaz36
How are scooters even a public hazard?? Governments just make up non-existent
issues whenever there is an industry that they have no control over, then
create laws that stifle innovation and create high barriers to entry by
creating endless laws that will discourage other startups from entering. This
is how oligopolies are created.

