
Indian police open case against hundreds in Kashmir for using VPN - jmsflknr
https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/18/indian-police-open-case-against-hundreds-in-kashmir-for-using-vpn/
======
definitelyRobot
As a young tech person in India, this stuff makes me _so_ angry. The ruling
party here (BJP) doesn't have any real competition. Which means they can get
away with pretty much anything.

They've banned VPNs. They'll chuck you in prison if you speak against the
government or a politician. Then they'll brand you as an "anti-nationalist"
and openly say to their supporters that you deserve to be shot.

Facial recognition is now being used to identify protestors. Bots and
deepfakes are being used to spread propoganda.

Many people are upset, but there's nothing we can do. We can't speak out
without fear of being reprimanded. We can vote for other parties, but there's
no way that they'll ever win. The majority of the population has blind faith
in BJP. The only demographic that appears to realise the implications well
enough is the youth in urban areas - a very insignificant fraction of the
nation's population.

Even the media is afraid to speak out against BJP because if they do then they
get attacked by physical and virtual mobs.

It's a shame. So much potential.

~~~
connectsnk
I am in Jammu(India) right now and can attest that comments like above are
only opinions and not facts. As goes for any country, people keep inventing
stuff / leaving crucial details because of their own biases and self
interests. The same goes for people who support BJP.

~~~
shripadk
Absolutely right. It is ridiculous to think that the Government will not
restrict communications in a region that has seen nothing but violence and
terrorism for the past 30 years since the Exodus of Kashmiri Pandits. For the
first time in 3 decades the Valley is peaceful. If it comes down to choosing
between deaths of innocents by deranged terrorists and cutting communication I
would always choose the latter. The Pulwama Attack is still fresh in the mind
of Indians and cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

~~~
owaislone
How many times did you visit the valley in the last 30 years? Please tell us
how peaceful or violent it was during your last 5 visits.

Please, also tell us how exactly this is bringing peace to the valley and if
banning phones and internet for months has been so effective, then why did
1988-95 see the most unrest? If I remember correctly, mobile phones with
EDGE/GPRS were introduced to Kashmir around what year? 2002? 2000 to ~2010
were also some of the most peaceful years in Kashmir in the last 3 decades.

~~~
yumraj
Was it peaceful enough that Kashmiri Pandits could return without fear of
being killed? If no, then it was not peaceful..

~~~
owaislone
Not sure what that has to do with BANNING 10 MILLION PEOPLE FROM USING
INTERNET for 5 months and then banning all social media but from my experience
of meeting Pandits in Srinagar who HAVE returned, yes.

Plus, OP implied that Kashmir is peaceful now because of people not having
internet access. Are you now saying until Pandits return, Kashmir will have no
internet access?

~~~
yumraj
\- I was replying to the claim that J&K was peaceful, which it clearly was
not. We cannot claim that since it was peaceful for one community, it was
peaceful.

\- per the media reports that I've seen, no Kashmiri Pandits have dared to
return. The only few that are in the valley are the ones who could not
migrate, primarily due to economic reasons. Rest have been living as refugees
in their own country

\- Internet had been used by terrorists and their sympathizors, and that is a
fact

------
aarongray
It's really too bad that the two rising tech countries - China and India -
have such a third-world approach to censorship on the Internet. You would
think they would want to mimic the US's successful formula in hopes of
building their presence as a tech powerhouse, but in this area they don't seem
to be doing that.

~~~
screye
We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to
secede.

India and China both face a significantly more difficult geopolitical reality
than the USA.

Some of the world's most westernized and developed countries (Spain, Israel)
are starting to use violence and suppressive tactics now that they are faced
with even the smallest amount of secessionist unrest.

Kashmir is one of the most militarized border zones alongside the West Bank. I
fully agree that there might be better and less suppressive methods that the
Govt. can use to deal with the Kashmir issue, but to act as though a USA like
policy would work in countries with very different ground realities is being
willfully arrogant.

At the risk of sounding too cold, if the choice was between death of a few
million people (which India has a long history of) and complete destruction of
communication frameworks. I would choose that latter.

Now the big problem with what the Indian Govt. is doing, is that this has been
going on for almost a year and they are making no efforts to bring Kashmir
back to "normalcy". Such draconian policies should only come into place for
very short durations with measures for removal, the second unrest goes below a
certain point.

~~~
reaperducer
_We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to
secede._

We have?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War)

~~~
gbear605
The context was specifically for consumer encryption technologies, which
wasn’t an issue during the Civil War.

~~~
loeg
That really is not clear from the statement: "We have yet to see how the US
reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede," which is obviously
false.

~~~
sykick
It's not false because we don't know what the reaction would be if this
happened today. The reaction of people 160 years ago is not at all predictive
of what would happen today. Especially if the issue was not a moral one as it
was 160 years ago.

------
arsalanb
When I left Kashmir a few months ago, my phone and all its contents were
checked by Indian police at the airport. They asked me to unlock and checked
photos, WhatsApp texts, etc.

Random arrests and extra-judicial killings of Kashmiris by the Indian state is
a quite regular occurrence. A laughable narrative around how they were
"Pakistan sponsored terrorists" is usually spun by the media/police nexus.

~~~
shripadk
> A laughable narrative around how they were "Pakistan sponsored terrorists"
> is usually spun by the media/police nexus.

So who conducted the Pulwama terror attack? Have you seen the video of the
terrorist and the filth that he utters against Hindus? It is obvious that
Pakistan is involved in sponsoring terror. They are in the grey list in FATF
for a reason and have two of the World's most dangerous terrorists: Masood
Azhar (who has gone missing! how does a high profile UN designated terrorist
go missing?) and Hafiz Saeed (who was roaming free till recently and was only
thrown in jail because of FATF pressures). These two individuals, who are
Chiefs of their organizations: Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashkar-E-Toiba,
respectively are the main conspirators in the 26/11 Mumbai Attack and the
attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001.

And shall we forget how Pakistan provided Osama Bin Laden a safe haven right
next to its own Military HQ?

We are not stupid.

There have been a stream of terror attacks in Kashmir ever since the exodus of
Kashmiri Pandits in the 1990s. But since India Abrogated Article 370 on August
5th, there has been actual peace after a long time.

~~~
aniketpant
Let's not push the narrative of Kashmir being peaceful after the abrogation of
Article 370 without any meaningful metric for the same.

~~~
legolas2412
I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you only opposing cutting off internet
or are you opposed to kashmir's "occupation"?

There are many factors that make the abrogation the right move. We shouldn't
be dividing a secular country for another Islamic state. Jammu and Leh should
not be held back by religious based separatism. Even if Kashmir turns more
violent, not giving into theocratic demands for another Islamic state is the
right thing to do.

Maybe cutting off internet and house arrest of politicians was not the right
moves, but neither was the status quo of perpetual autonomy and jihadi
separatists.

Disclaimer, as I should add one. I'm no bjp supporter, and i hate the hindutva
guys the same as I do the islamist crowd. After all, we call bjp making india
a hindu pakistan. The word pakistan is derogatory here.

~~~
aniketpant
Opposed to both. I should have been clearer.

As the parent comment appears to assume that the decisions taken by the
government in Kashmir are tied to the terrorism in the valley as opposed to
being mere line items in their manifesto that stems from their political
ideology. So assuming what they're saying is correct, I only wish to
understand the metric for peace.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
This is a reminder that without physical security, electronic security is
pretty much worthless. The best encryption won't save you from rubberhose
cryptanalysis where they beat you until you reveal your key. Clever
circumvention technologies such as VPN won't save you when they arrest your
for using circumvention technologies.

These are all good things, but we in tech, oftentimes think we can program our
way out of bad physical governance. We can't! We need now more than ever to
engage with everyone to make sure that we have good physical governments.

~~~
magduf
>Clever circumvention technologies such as VPN won't save you when they arrest
your for using circumvention technologies.

True, but my question here is: given that VPNs are pretty much essential for
the way many large corporations work (they're not going to let employees
access sensitive data over the internet in the clear), how does India, a
country with a large tech presence and which promotes itself as a good place
for software development, handle this?

~~~
nindalf
You can use VPNs in other parts of the country, just not in the areas where
internet access has been banned. While this is an egregious abuse of power and
a gross violation of the rights of Kashmiris, it is not happening in the rest
of the country.

~~~
truncate
How is use of VPN is enforced? Looking at credit card transactions?

Use-cases like these makes cryptocurrency so much appealing. Where I can
potentially spend my money like normal physical cash.

------
LinuxBender
This is going to sound antiquated and tedious, so please bear with me. Rather
than using a VPN/Tor/etc. which can be easily detected or requires a lot of
OpSec to get right, consider having people in other countries that can help
bundle archives of data for you. Ship the data back and forth over something
non conspicuous and not subject to MITM proxies such as SFTP to AWS or one of
the low-rent VPS providers. Use a ram based linux distribution in India to
create the posts, tar the data up, SFTP to another country. A friend in that
country outside of India pulls down the tarball and posts text and videos to
social media for you. When you are done uploading your tarball, reboot, and
all the data is gone from your end. You can boot back into whatever government
approved OS image is acceptable.

If you set the filesystem permissions right on the SFTP server, then even if
they beat the username / pw out of you, then all they will find is cat videos
on the chroot SFTP server. Your friend will see the tarball of objectionable
content in a hidden directory. Remember to sanitize EXIF data from pictures
first as that has your GPS location and in some cases your cell phone serial
number. Someone will suggest ssh keys over password, but they should not in
this case. No data must be persisted on the India side of this scenario.

I will be the first to admit, this process is tedious. I am only suggesting it
as a last resort when all else fails.

~~~
vbezhenar
ssh could be used for proxy, so it might be marked as a VPN by ISP hardware.
Better way would be to use something very popular like Gmail or Google Drive.
I hope that chances are small for Google to co-operate with Indian government.

~~~
LinuxBender
One of the reasons I suggest SFTP is that contractors in India are very often
asked to transfer data to US and EU companies this way. It is often required
for contractors to do their job. You can disable port forwarding on the SFTP
server in the event that government officials want to verify it is not a
proxy. If the VPS used is AWS, it is even less conspicuous. The admins of the
account for the VM must be outside of India. The server can even contain work
related files to make it legit.

This process is predicated on the idea that you want to get the word out about
things occurring in your country and that you do not need to take credit for
it.

------
satya71
I think India is well on its way to becoming hybrid regime in the Democracy
Index. [https://www.economist.com/graphic-
detail/2020/01/22/global-d...](https://www.economist.com/graphic-
detail/2020/01/22/global-democracy-has-another-bad-year)

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
Governments everywhere do not like secrecy. Unless, naturally, it is their
secrets. Everyone else should, ideally, sit at the table with their hands palm
up and on the said table.

I wish it was an isolated incident, but the more politicians you hear, the
more it becomes apparent that it is all about the side you are on.

------
hprotagonist
The most populous democracy on earth, everybody!

~~~
jdfellow
Yeah, one that's nuclear armed and constantly on the brink of war with its
nuclear armed neighbor.

A bit worrying, no?

~~~
yellowapple
Turns out Civilization bugs are more prescient than we thought.

------
CodeSheikh
Remind me again, does India have a democratic government or an authoritarian
regime?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
A democratically-elected authoritarian regime.

~~~
thbr99
Literacy is key to eradicate authoritarian BJP in India. Because the last
standing state is the most literate state in India which is Kerala.

~~~
nindalf
I don't think this is true. Some of the most educated and wealthy people
support the BJP, fascist though the party may be. Look at the vote split in
the recent Delhi election. All upper caste voters flocked to the BJP by
margins of 20%+. Dalits and Muslims voted AAP. Upper castes are
disproportionately wealthy and educated.

My theory for this is that such people (relatives of mine included, sadly) are
just higher on Maslow's heirarchy of needs. At the bottom you need roti-kapda-
makaan (food, clothing, shelter), followed by bijli-sadak-paani (electricity,
roads, water) and higher up health and education. If you've had all of this
all your life, you take them for granted. When Modi comes along and peddles a
grand vision to Make India Great Again, like it was in Vedic times, that
captures the imagination and inspires us. When the BJP tells us that all of
our problems are because of Muslims and that we need to put them in their
place to fix everything, we're only too willing to listen.

~~~
happygolucky_in
This is pretty spot on. Something as simple and basic as the Maslow's
hierarchy explains the voting pattern in India. It is no coincidence that
rising middle class has coincided with the rise in BJP's electoral returns.
With their basic needs met, their worry now is to protect their Gods,
reconstructing a temple that was supposedly demolished 500 years ago and
goddam cows! They really do not care about the plight of the less fortunate
around them. Concepts like freedom of expression, individual liberty, equality
etc. are of not much importance to them.

------
nindalf
Quick summary of the situation in India

\- In 2014, Narendra Modi was elected Prime Minister on a plank of
"development for all". Since the BJP's pedigree was one of Hindu nationalism
(aka Hindutva), this was a change welcomed by many. He had a good track record
of development as Chief Minister (equivalent of Governor in America).

\- After a couple of major missteps (invalidating all high value currency
notes, tax changes), growth started to slow. While it had been 7-9% between
2004 and 2014, it was now 5% or less.

\- The BJP started to capture and subvert institutions that make India
function as a democracy including the Courts[1] and the Election
Commission[2]. They intimidated and coerced the media into toeing the BJP line
[3].

\- In 2019, the BJP won re-election. In this campaign, there was no talk of
development (because there was precious little of it), no discussion of
rampant unemployment. The BJP tried to convince us that the main issue was
Pakistan (it wasn't) and how they were an existential threat to the nation
(they weren't) and how Modi had "taught them a lesson" (he hadn't).

\- Since then, Hindutva has made a big comeback. It is now priority #1, above
unemployment, above low growth.

\- The BJP is staking everything on killing the separatist movement in Kashmir
and removing all special privileges of Kashmiris, building a temple over a
destroyed mosque, and removing illegal Muslim immigrants. Though seemingly
disparate, all of these facilitate the broader goal of establishing a Hindu
Rashtra - a nation of Hindus, by Hindus, for Hindus. One where the secular
Constitution of India is no longer valid.

\- To enforce this, the BJP has resorted to totalitarian tactics, including
the effective house arrest of millions of Kashmiris, coupled with an internet
blackout. Thanks to the aforementioned capture of the Courts, the Supreme
Court has done nothing to right this injustice [4].

That's where we are now.

On a personal note, writing this down broke my heart. I love my country and I
grieve to see what is being done to it.

[1] - [https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/judging-the-
judges/ci...](https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/judging-the-
judges/cid/1438565)

[2] - [https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-
story/article29618205.e...](https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-
story/article29618205.ece)

[3] - [https://thewire.in/media/punya-prasun-bajpai-bjp-
media](https://thewire.in/media/punya-prasun-bajpai-bjp-media)

[4] - [https://scroll.in/article/935432/analysis-supreme-court-
orde...](https://scroll.in/article/935432/analysis-supreme-court-orders-in-
kashmir-petitions-undermine-the-spirit-of-habeas-corpus)

~~~
ra7
> building a temple over a destroyed mosque

Wasn't this a Supreme Court order both parties accepted? The BJP isn't forcing
this, although this has been their goal for decades and they will certainly
claim credit for it.

~~~
nindalf
See my points about undue influence by the BJP over the Court. Realistically
this influence meant there was no other decision those judges could take, even
though it was ridiculous to award land based on "fervent religious belief",
with no proof other than scripture. Worst of all, the destruction of the
mosque was unlawful even according to judges themselves and yet they saw fit
to compound that injury by taking away the land under the mosque and awarding
it to groups allied with the original destroyers of the mosque.

You're right about the BJP claiming credit for it. We're going to hear about
nothing else for the next four years, especially during state election
periods.

~~~
ra7
> See my points about undue influence by the BJP over the Court.

Even if it's true, it doesn't mean the BJP influenced this court decision. You
don't have proof for it, so you shouldn't speculate.

> Worst of all, the destruction of the mosque was unlawful even according to
> judges themselves and yet they saw fit to compound that injury by taking
> away the land under the mosque and awarding it to groups allied with the
> original destroyers of the mosque.

They awarded the land to build the temple because they found archeological
evidence that the mosque was built on a non-Islamic structure which is
recorded in history as Hindu. The case wasn't about whether the mosque
demolition was illegal or not (it was). It was about resolving who the
disputed land belongs to. The mosque superseded a Hindu place of worship of
huge significance. There was no "perfect" decision here; it was always going
to compromise one party over the other.

------
0xFFFE
These discussions quickly devolve into political mudslinging , I wish there
was way to filter out such posts.

------
lousken
[https://archive.is/Gf3Pg](https://archive.is/Gf3Pg) if anyone blocks
guce.advertising.com

------
amriksohata
If Pakistan had just listened to the UN and actioned first step of the
security councils resolution 47, we would not be in this position.

------
rabbitsfoot8
This is very sad to see. Privacy is a right.

------
CamperBob2
_The majority of the population has blind faith in BJP. The only demographic
that appears to realise the implications well enough is the youth in urban
areas - a very insignificant fraction of the nation 's population._

Sounds all too familiar here in the US. We are effectively held hostage by
rural voters, and the obvious remedy for this state of affairs -- abolishing
the Electoral College -- will mean that those voters have the same legitimate
grounds for complaint against us.

At some point we _have_ to start re-evaluating the conventional wisdom that
democracy is the best possible form of government at all possible scales.

~~~
manigandham
Who is "we"? This is how democracy works, and those rural voters have a say in
what happens. This country would crumble within months without all those
flyover states contributing to the nation.

~~~
lozaning
Curious as to your line of thinking here. What exactly do the coasts need that
only flyover country can provide?

I live in a flyover state and I like living here just fine, but I find the
idea that California is going to crumble if North Dakota stops supporting it
to be hilarious.

~~~
manigandham
Flyover country provides food, manufacturing and talent to many corporations
that you don't know but interact with every day.

As a 20 year resident of California, this state is absolutely broke and barely
survives as it is. It would be a failed nation-state if it was on its own.

~~~
lozaning
I'm gonna argue that all of those things are fungible commodities easily
bought by the next supplier should they become unavailable from flyover
country.

Curious why you've lived for so long in a state you apparently have a lot of
disdain for. There must be something keeping you there.

~~~
manigandham
If they were so easily bought then they would be, but you missed the fact that
the state is broke and can't pay for anything anyway.

Family keeps my primary residence here, but that's irrelevant to the
discussion.

Here's an exercise: ask a CA resident to name 10 things that have gotten
better over the last decade in this state. I'd be surprised if they name 1.

~~~
lozaning
These things are commodities, a bushel of corn is a bushel of corn is a bushel
of corn. They're not more difficult to buy from elsewhere, the logistic just
become marginally more expensive. There's not a buyer in the world that's
going to buy the more expensive stuff first, but a marginal increase in
logistics cost to buy corn from mexico instead of kansas is not going to
result in california sinking into the ocean.

What state do you think is just full to the brim with people waiting to talk
about how good things are?

------
Bang2Bay
kashmir to me is war zone. As you know everything is fair in war.

------
nine_zeros
Very sad. But a great lesson for the rest of the world. Democracy with an
uneducated populace is a disaster waiting to happen

~~~
lonesword
So the solution would be to not have democracy until the unwashed uneducated
masses become otherwise so?

The East India company would've agreed with you :p

~~~
nine_zeros
No. That is stupid. The solution is to make sure that education is never
skimped on.

The lesson for countries like US that are cutting education in favor of tax
cuts is that lack of education in a electoral democracy is a self-fulfilling
disaster.

~~~
selimthegrim
This guy is the only person that understands root of entire problem being
discussed in this thread. What was and is literacy rate in all of Kashmir in
early 20th century and especially now in insurgent districts? Government of
India and UGC are making big hue and cry about online education. How do they
expect these areas to take part?

------
nu2ycombinator
Misleading Title. It is not about using VPN but about propagating rumors.

This is a law in India, as there were instances of riots caused by social
media rumor.

Actual News \----------- The FIR has been registered while taking cognisance
of the social media posts by miscreants by using different VPNs, which are
propagating rumours with regard to the current security scenario in the
Kashmir valley, secessionist ideology and glorifying terrorists, the police
said.

I am young Techie from India too and I totally support it.

~~~
1ris
Suppressing secession is tyranny. India should know a thing or two about that.

~~~
shripadk
No one suppressed secession. There have been secession movements not just in
Kashmir but in North East too. That doesn't give anyone the authority to
conduct terror attacks on fellow citizens. When things go beyond a point of no
return then force is needed. Since the day India Abrogated Article 370 there
hasn't been one major terror attack in Kashmir. That is good enough for the
rest of India that was sick and tired of hearing Civilians and Army men being
targeted by terrorists in Kashmir ever since the Kashmiri Pandit exodus in the
1990s. If you want to learn a thing or two about India, you better read up on
Exodus and Genocide Kashmiri Pandits and how they are now refugees in their
own country. Then you have the rights to lecture Indians on what is democracy
and what is tyranny. We have been the most accommodative over the years and
our patience has been tested far beyond permissible limit. India already went
through a terrible Partition in 1947 on Religious lines where Muslims did not
want to live with Hindus. Did that solve the problem? Nope. We already had one
Partition. Won't allow more. And we shouldn't even be justifying it. It is
surprising to me that people here question the decisions of a Sovereign Nation
on what it should and should not do. Would you be willing to have your Nation
broken up into multiple pieces because some Tom, Dick or Harry doesn't like
the way it is now? Don't be ridiculous!

~~~
stordoff
> Would you be willing to have your Nation broken up into multiple pieces
> because some Tom, Dick or Harry doesn't like the way it is now?

As someone who conceivably sees this happening to his country in the
relatively near future (English; Scotland leaving the UK), I'm not sure it's
my right to prevent the secession of an identifiable group/country/region (the
special status under Article 370 seems to suggest Jammu and Kashmir _might_ be
such) against their will.

> Since the day India Abrogated Article 370 there hasn't been one major terror
> attack in Kashmir.

Only six months on from abrogation I'd be somewhat reluctant to draw any firm
conclusions. Based on my limited understanding, major attacks do not seem to
be have been of such a frequency that you would necessarily expect one to
occur within that six month period.

~~~
shripadk
> the special status under Article 370 seems to suggest Jammu and Kashmir
> _might_ be such

Nope. Article 370 was always a temporary provision. It was not permanent
Special Status. The Act itself said that the provision was temporary and could
be lifted by just Presidential Consent. And the will of the people cannot be
taken into account without considering Kashmiri Pandits who are the original
inhabitants of Kashmir but were kicked out by Jihadis in the 90s. Read up on
Exodus and Genocide of Kashmiri Pandits. They are living as refugees in their
own country. For past 30 years. Has there been a greater injustice than this?
And you can see the vitriol against the Pandits in the comment section for
yourself. See your sibling comment on how ridiculous some can get when it
comes to the treatment meted out to the Pandits. If this is how their reaction
is towards Kashmiri Pandits in the virtual world imagine what it is like on
ground. They were given 3 options: Raliv, Galiv ya Chaliv which translates to
Convert, Die or Leave. Another popular slogan: "Leave your women behind". You
may have calls for separatism in your country but it was never on religious
lines. You will never understand that pain.

------
thbr99
The India government is taking action against spreading misinformation & fake
news via VPN enabled social media. What is wrong here. Title is misleading and
sensationalist.

~~~
bitxbitxbitcoin
For one, it's unconstitutional.

From the article:

> Mishi Choudhary, executive director of New Delhi-based Software Law and
> Freedom Centre, said that the authority did not need to chase people who are
> using VPNs, and should restore internet access like any other democratic
> society.

“Any alleged rumors can be addressed by putting out accurate and more
information through the same social media platforms. Content-based
restrictions on speech can only be allowed within the restrictions established
by the Constitution and not in an ad hoc manner,” she said.

~~~
shripadk
It isn't unconstitutional. Quote the Act that prohibits the Government from
taking precautionary measures. We are dealing with a region that has seen
countless terror attacks since the Exodus of Kashmiri Pandits in the 1990s.
For the first time since August 5th there has been peace in the valley with no
major terror attacks. If restrictions of communications helps attain peace
then so be it. I rather communications be cut than have lives lost needlessly
because some deranged lunatic decided to blow himself up in the name of his
Religion. And do not forget that the Pulwama Attack is still fresh in the
minds of Indians.

------
ThePowerOfFuet
Can anyone contribute a source which doesn't break EU regulations by forcing
me to accept cookies?

~~~
wolco
Make your choice: Accept that the next time you visit they will remember you.

or

Choose not to visit.

or

Delete your cookie

or use curl

or go private browser mode

or hunt in google for the title to read the cache page

or pay someone to copy over the contents to text.

Plenty of choices. I'd go private browser mode in your case. Well I would just
accept the cookie.

~~~
PeterisP
It's not really about the cookies - it does _not_ limit itself to "the next
time you visit they will remember you" \- even in the case of private browser
mode (or if deleting cookies) it won't proceed without "agreeing" to the use
of cookies _and other similar technologies_ (i.e. whatever fingerprinting
methods they can figure out - their privacy policy lists that they're tracking
pretty much everything that I could think of, including my actions on other
sites) and granting permission to a very large number of third parties to use
this data in the future.

That's not reasonable. Consent must be freely given (and if provision of
services is conditional on consent, then it shall be deemed not freely given),
it must be opt-in and it shall be as easy to withdraw consent as it was to
give it. And if your legal basis for processing data is something other than
consent, then don't ask to "agree" to it, implying that this happens with
consent - but in their case their privacy policy does list consent as the
basis for processing this data.

Their current behavior of "surely you'll permit us to track everything" is
both immoral and illegal, and it should be eliminated, not tolerated.

It's worth noting that they are an exception. While various "GDPR-banners" are
quite popular, as a matter of principle, I never agree to anything on them and
refuse consent to everything, and it turns out that it's not a problem for
most sites, they note the preference, follow the law and it ends at that. GDPR
has no issues with storing a non-personalized cookie noting that preference,
which some sites do, so as not to ask every time. So the fact that Verizon
Media is agressively flounting the law is not appropriate. Most of the fault
probably lies with the Irish regulator, which has been far too lax in
proactively policing the many international companies (including Verizon
Media) which have their EU operations and their GDPR compliance domiciled in
Ireland, but I'm sure we'll force things to change eventually.

~~~
wolco
In this case I don't understand.

They ask for consent. You choose to provide it.

If you are putting forward the idea that you should be able to not consent but
still use the service or view the content. Anyone not providing access is
doing an illegal act in Europe. I'm not sure that's fair either. You choose to
visit the site.

~~~
PeterisP
Well, _I_ personally choose _not_ to provide it as a matter of principle, but
regarding those who do click "agree" the position (both legal and moral) is
that they don't really _choose_ to consent.

GDPR permits multiple legal basis of processing data (e.g. the need for data
to fulfil a specific contract), but they generally don't apply to processing
all kinds of semi-relevant data for targeting advertising. Consent is a legal
basis under GDPR if and only if it's truly voluntary; one of the key criteria
is consent being feely given. You can't "trade" something for that permission
(give me consent and I'll give you X, refuse consent and I'll refuse X), it
must be freely given because the user _wants_ to give that data, because they
believe that it's good for them for the service provider to have and use that
data. I.e. you can voluntarily choose to allow tracking for advertising
purposes because in that case the ads are more relevant to you, or you can
refuse that tracking if you think that this is not what you want.

So the idea is that privacy and consent to violations of privacy is not
something that I can trade away (e.g. by choosing to visit a site) - it's not
for sale, they can't buy it, I can't sell it. Offering something in return
(e.g. the ability to visit the site) can not be a way to obtain consent. If
refusing consent will result in access being revoked or some other bad
consequences (e.g. losing discounts) then it's not considered a free choice.
(GDPR recital 42 "... Consent should not be regarded as freely given if the
data subject has no genuine or free choice or is unable to refuse or withdraw
consent _without detriment_.)

They can deny people access to the site. But if they extract a click on "I
agree" by forcing to choose to click there or go away, then that click does
not and should not be counted as a consent to violate people's privacy; these
rights are fundamental and they can't be given away with a click or sold for
some money or traded away as a point in, for example, an employment contract.
Revoking access (or threatening to revoke access) to a site is not a legally
(and morally) valid way to gain permission to violate the privacy all their
users.

And _that_ is the intended point of GDPR - there should be no way for web
companies to structure their legal or technical mechanisms in a way where they
somehow obtain a permission to abuse the data of all their users. They can use
some data of everyone for specific limited purposes (e.g. the legitimate need
clause). They can use data for whatever purposes specific people choose to
volunteer. But they do not, and should not have a way to "extract permission"
to simply sell all their users privacy to third parties; nothing they can do
in their privacy policy or terms and conditions or web click-throughs can
provide that - the intended result is that they _can 't_ get the permission
from everyone to do everything, and they actually have to stop doing many of
the things they currently list in their privacy policy.

And that's what I want Verizon Media to do - it's not that they haven't done
some ritual to legitimize their tracking, it's that their current tracking is
fundamentally illegitimate no matter what legalese they write in their terms
and conditions, and they should stop the mass invasive tracking of all their
users except the minority who might intentionally opt-in for whatever reason.
And if they don't stop it, they need to be forced to stop.

