
How Late Zhou China Reverse-Engineered a Civilization - saadalem
https://palladiummag.com/2020/07/10/how-late-zhou-china-reverse-engineered-a-civilization/
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bigpumpkin
That the mohists became so irrelevant in later dynasties was in my opinion a
great loss.

They were among the earliest universal consequentialists and great siege
engineers.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism)

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Symmetry
My understanding is that to make an effective movement based on benevolence
you need to be able to draw a line and say, "OK, if you do this much you're a
good enough person and while more would be better we're not going to give you
flak for not doing more." And the Mohists failed to succeed at doing this and
had a purity spiral that wiped them out. Something we Effective Altruists have
to bear in mind.

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skykooler
I see a similar problem in the vegan movement, with people going vegan only to
be told that they're not doing enough due to owning a car with a leather
steering wheel, or buying coconut oil that contributes to destruction of
orangutan habitats.

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fspeech
托古 or "attributing to the ancients" was a standard technique used by Chinese
writers arguing for their positions, likely appealing to the tradition of
ancestry worship. So we really can't take the claim of reverse engineering
from the Zhou at its face value. It's more likely that the many schools of
thoughts were original to the time, stimulated by the intense competition
among the multitude of states.

~~~
Symmetry
The European Renaissance was very similar with lots of actual innovations
being ascribed to the wisdom of the ancient Romans or Greeks.

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Waterfall
I recommend Han Feizi for anyone interested.

>Confucius died thinking himself a failure. He didn’t manage to get a ruler to
adopt his solution long enough for a full-scale test. Though he was able to
gain the ears of a few statesmen, he lost political fights to other advisers
and so fell from favor.

No he didn't. He, Buddha and Socrates were around the same era. I believe it's
called the axial age. Socrates and him both were not well regarded in their
times and knew that they both would be more well liked after their deaths.
I've read that they both thought their time would come later. I don't
understand why they said he thought himself a failure. Nobody who travels
around believing these philosophical ideas can feel themselves a failure and
continue to hold these philosophical ideas.

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bencollier49
Could one not argue that the Renaissance was Europe reverse-engineering the
Roman and Greek civilisations? As per this article's main conceit.

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akimball
As has been argued many times. There have been several important revivals of
classical mediterranean patterns. A relatively recent one which stands out is
the "Third Reich". US federal style is another example.

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bencollier49
Well quite. My point was that this article presents the Chinese experience as
unique, which it is not.

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enitihas
Ancient China has a very fascinating history. I think the world would be very
different if the voyages started under the Prince of Yan would have been
allowed to continue. China would have discovered the new world before Europe,
and history would be drastically different. They really had impressive boats
very early on.

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Merrill
Chinese Thought: Ancient Wisdom Meets Modern Science - Part 1
[https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.1x+3...](https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.1x+3T2018/course/)

Chinese Thought: Ancient Wisdom Meets Modern Science - Part 2
[https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.2x+3...](https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.2x+3T2018/course/)

Excellent course.

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Johnwbh
Interesting. One of the things that ancient China had that other comparable
civilizations didn't was an intellectual culture that transcended the
political divisions of the time. Which allowed for a lot of innovation, and
spreading of knowledge. Closest thing in Europe before the modern time is
maybe late Rome, but it was fairly centralized, which made it harder for
innovations to spread and take hold. Whereas ancient China had power spread
out much more, even when it was notionally ruled by a single dynasty

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ginko
Wasn't the church pretty much independent of the individual European kingdoms
and empires? Also starting with the renaissance, but probably even before
that, scientists and philosophers could move between courts.

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Bayart
The Church had its own religious purview but it took a while for it to become
its own political force. In that respect it rose at the same time as the
improvements in government, land management, international travel, trade etc.
that occurred in the later half of the Middle Ages.

The first comprehensive system of intellectual dissemination came through
universities, starting in the 11th/12th c. Those who wanted to study law went
to Bologna, theology to Paris, medicine to Montpellier etc. Universities were
international places where people used Latin as a vehicular language. Broke
student spending their time drinking and living in hovels were legion and
became a hotbed of radicalism [1].

By the time the Renaissance came around, there was an entire industry of
private education with lay academies everywhere and teachers travelling all
over the continent.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris_strike,_12...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris_strike,_1229)

