
State of emergency in France - randomname2
https://gist.github.com/fasterthanlime/faa2ae629d22f325beb7
======
Luker88
Didn't France approve sweeping surveillance laws back in July? And they even
were on high alert due to international talks happening in Paris...

Italy and Spain also stopped terrorist cells this month, but they don't seem
to have such laws...

Guess they need more unwarranted power, uh?

~~~
junto
We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will
vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read
to the end and then down vote!

If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat
the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close
attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did
not spread throughout the entire body.

With that in mind, I believe that our only choice, assuming we want our free
and open societies to remain as they are, is to monitor all Muslims living in
Europe who have the potential to be radicalised and turned cancerous. Warrant,
judge, monitor.

We could try and close all the borders (they are porous) or we can make
pointless suggestions, like we should kick all immigrants out of our
countries, but the fact remains that the attackers in London and Paris earlier
in the year (and I'm betting last night too) are second or third generation
immigrants who were born in the west.

Since 9/11 the security services have tried to crack down on radicalization
within the internal Muslim communities, by expelling radical clerics, but the
internet allows the radicalization of the very young and marginalised youth
(mostly boys), to continue. This isn't surprising considering the racism
against immigrants in the ghettoes of Paris, and the exclusion of these youths
from French society. First came the riots in 2005, and now something much more
sinister has arrived.

Or societies are desperately trying not to impose draconian rules of
monitoring on a religious group, but as it stands I see little choice in the
matter.

Also Germany is facing a firestorm. Within the large numbers of genuine
refugees, are Syrian fighters from both sides. Some are most likely
disillusioned by the brutality of ISIS, and some are coming to watch the world
burn. We desperately need to know who these people are and urgently before
they disappear into the masses.

We also need to understand ISIS and what they are trying to do. Wikileaks
recently published a document [1] that outlines their goals and they are
simple. They want to achieve the Islamic State with pure Sharia Law. Moderate
Muslims (aka "the greyzone") either have to join, or be burnt in the war with
all other Kafir (that has been prophesied). They need the west to turn against
their Muslim communities forcing them back to fighting and into the open arms
of ISIS. They want those new immigrants in Germany to be excluded, treated
like dogs, so that they either return to the middle east and (re)join the
perverted form of Islam that is preached by IS.

Now you can see the dilemma that the west faces. On the one hand, logic
dictates that they need to closely monitor the youths in Europe who are
getting radicalised over the internet, but they can't single out a religious
group without a severe backlash. The alternative is to monitor everyone on the
internet, because in doing that you get to watch the small part that you are
interested in, without appearing to religiously persecuting Muslims.

Finally, there is a twitter account [2] that follows radical militia fighters
from Syria and the middle East. A large number of which are now posting photos
of them in Europe now. We need to find them now.

[1] ISIS strategy in France: Provoke a crackdown on Muslims to "Eliminate the
Grayzone" [https://t.co/8fb8BbKOG2](https://t.co/8fb8BbKOG2) #ParisAttacks
#AttaquesParis

[2]
[https://mobile.twitter.com/EU_MilitiaWatch/](https://mobile.twitter.com/EU_MilitiaWatch/)

~~~
mbrock
Draconian measures targeted against large ethnic groups has been historically
unsuccessful in Europe. It also grievously violates the core principles of an
open and liberal society, which are presumably what we are supposed to be
defending. Vehemently disagreeing with your opinion is a crucial necessity for
anyone who stands for democracy and liberty.

~~~
junto
Do you have an alternative? All I see is naïve suggestions.

As I see it we have several options:

1\. We accept the fact that we will have more terror attacks in major European
cities as a given. We such it up and we continue to live in a free and liberal
society.

2\. We accept total surveillance of our society. As the technology becomes
more honed, terror attacks might be easier to prevent before they start.

3\. We accept targeted surveillance of those groups that are most likely to
end up radicalised and commit terror attacks.

4\. The more ideas the better...

~~~
CPLX
I always wonder why I never see this one on lists of choices:

5\. Stop killing large numbers of Muslim people in the Middle East every week
and see if that doesn't make them less likely to kill comparatively small
numbers of people in Western cities every couple of years.

~~~
vlehto
I didn't know France was doing that?

Anyhow it works relatively nicely here in Finland. We only take part in UN
operations as peacekeepers. And we don't have radicalized Muslims doing
strikes in Finland. But for some reason Finnish Muslim radicals still travel
to Syrian and join ISIS.

I don't think Levant will be peaceful in my lifetime unless Israel magically
disappears from the map.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
> France is sending its largest warship to join operations against Islamic
> State (IS) in Syria and Iraq.

source: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-34738177](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177)

~~~
vlehto
Thanks. I was genuinely curious.

To me "power projection" in itself is morally very questionable. Even without
terrorist attacks. Unfortunately modern geopolitics is more Machiavellian than
Machiavelli himself was.

~~~
bayesianhorse
Not stopping genocide is morally questionable too. And that's what Assad and
IS have been doing.

~~~
vlehto
It's not just morally questionable, it's outright wrong.

Unfortunately trying to stop genocide with violence and failing miserably is
even more wrong. On the other hand using supposed genocide as excuse to
forward geopolitical interests would also be wrong.

Given how Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq wars have turned out, I'm not in favor
of meddling. Given how nobody gave single fuck about Khmer rouge, I don't
believe in genuine good will in geopolitics. So I'm not giving my permission
to anybody to conduct air strikes in Syria, but they won't ask me either. Only
air strike that gets my approval is dropping several tonnes of polyurethane to
Dabiq.

[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-
isi...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-
wants/384980/)

~~~
hokkos
Because it is better to let your own terrorist grow the biggest terrorist
owned zone, and build an enormous army full of cash ? This is exactly what
create this big projection power that make successful terrorist attack in
France.

~~~
vlehto
I didn't quite understand. Who is growing biggest terrorist zone? What what
army, what cash?

~~~
hokkos
There is 6000 europeans terrorists in Syria; 1000-2000 french, letting them
settle there give them fantastical capabilities to recruit more, and project
more power on european countries with trained terrorists.

------
fasterthanlime
Hey HN, I'm maintaining this gist. Feel free to propose better translations in
the gist comments or right here, some of it could definitely use some
improvement.

If you have any other questions, I'll try to point you to reliable sources.
Thanks for your interest in what happens to our country!

~~~
ilaksh
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/paris-attack-
wi...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/paris-attack-witness-he-
was-dressed-in-black-professional-shooting-and-killing)

------
dbcooper
Is a curfew in place?

I know that all universities and research institutes are closed on
Saturday.[1] Sucks if you have cells to maintain.

It would be awfully sad if people can't go out and drink and eat freely in one
of the great European cities. If I was still in Paris I'd want to be having a
good, relaxed time with my friends tonight.

[1]Bonjour,

Sur décision de la Mairie de Paris et du Rectorat, toutes les écoles et
établissements académiques seront fermés le samedi 14/11/15.

~~~
corin_
The curfew was put into place last night, the first time it has happened since
1944 apparently, but it was lifted again by this morning. It's still
recommended to not go outside unless you have to, but not forbidden. (Very
recently a car reportedly with four heavily armed people in it broke through a
police barrier, driving towards Paris - nobody knows if directly connected
yet..)

It's still quite a tense atmosphere here.

~~~
Spare_account
Re: armed men in a car

It took a while to find a source that wasn't the Daily Mail

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-
police-...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-police-
tracking-black-car-carrying-four-armed-people-after-terror-
attacks-a6734561.html)

~~~
corin_
French press has been (understandably I guess) ahead of international press on
most of this stuff. Personally I'm following
[http://www.metronews.fr/](http://www.metronews.fr/)
[http://www.lemonde.fr/](http://www.lemonde.fr/) and
[http://www.leparisien.fr/](http://www.leparisien.fr/)

Despite living here, my French isn't great so mainly using Google translate.

------
hackuser
Remember the goal of terrorism is to terrorize you. It's to get the maximum
effect of very limited resources; right now 8 people have around a billion (or
more) panicked. Wow.

If they are scaring you - especially into a state of conflict - they've won.
There were only 8 of them. They can't really threaten you.

ISIS wants irreconcileable division and conflict between people who are Muslim
and others. Are you giving it to them - and because of 8 people? The real
conflict should be between peace-loving people and violent nutcases like ISIS
- then our enemy is vastly outnumbered.

France's response should be to counter ISIS' goals, and heal divisions between
people of different religions. Eliminate their ban on clothing worn by
Muslims, accept more refugees; nothing would be more crushing to ISIS than
people of all faiths living peacefully, happily side-by-side, as friends,
neighbors, and families.

~~~
codedokode
> nothing would be more crushing to ISIS than people of all faiths living
> peacefully, happily side-by-side, as friends, neighbors, and families.

People living in Syria and Iraq have their cities bombed by western armies.
People in Lybia saw it earlier. Maybe they lost their friends or relatives in
a war. Sorry but your naive words about peaceful living would sound like a
bullshit to them.

~~~
hackuser
> your naive words about peaceful living would sound like a bullshit to them

I understand the reasoning (but please dial back the tone), but I think it's
wrong:

First, peace is often made by those same people who survive war and other
horrors. The great modern institutions of international peace were built by
the survivors of WWII (and WWI before it), people who saw far more and were
far less naive than you or me. The foundations of the European Union were
established by the same survivors, whose friends and relative were killed and
brutalized by other EU members. Martin Luther King and his followers were
brutalized by their white neighbors, yet they preached peace. Perhaps it's the
people who have seen war who feel the greatest need for peace and understand
what it takes.

Second, do you have any basis for speaking for the people in Syria and Iraq?
Research? Do you live there?

~~~
codedokode
No. I don't live there. But I know that US and France invaded those countries
and are fighting again IS. What was the true reason to do that I don't know.
And what were the objectives of attackers I don't know too. They declared it
was a revenge for Syria.

You are right, the United Nations was founded after the war to prevent
conflicts to give a chance for other ways to resolve them. People who saw what
war is didn't want to see it again. But people today are other generation. Was
a decision to invade Lybia, Syria, or Iraq approved by UN? Was there any
dialog? Were all diplomatic and economic measures avaiable used? Was it really
necessary?

I didn't mean to be rude but I still think words about peaceful living from
western countries won't reach people in Middle Asia.

~~~
hackuser
> People who saw what war is didn't want to see it again. But people today are
> other generation.

I suspect the same thing. Many in the US and elsewhere in the West since 9/11
have been quick to embrace violence, as well as the scourges that brought
earlier wars: Nationalism, racial and religious prejudice, etc. What happened
to the norms that said these things are dangerous? Is it that the generation
who experienced the consequences has died out, and now we are ignorant again?
Is that why history repeats? A lesson learned lasts no longer than a
generation? How depressing.

I also wonder if I am merely remembering a golden age that never existed.
Certainly during the Cold War many bad, hateful things happened.

> I still think words about peaceful living from western countries won't reach
> people in Middle Asia.

Remember the idea that the generation of WWII knew about war and peace, and
our generation has forgotten. Perhaps the current generation in the Mideast is
the one that knows, far better than we do, about war and peace.

------
gizi
A great part of the native French has always been openly or covertly racist
towards the North African immigrants in France. I am not surprised by the
presence of feelings of hatred amongst the North Africans. This event will
make the native French even more racist and the North Africans even more
filled with hate. Then, you also have the aspect of religion. The native
French like to make derogatory remarks about Islam, while the Muslims may
badly overreact. As outsiders, we can only watch how all of this will unfold
...

~~~
nothrabannosir
_The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Islam, while the
Muslims may badly overreact._

It is a bit flippant to put those two so close. The point is not who is right
and who is wrong, he said she said---the point is that some people went
objectively too far. We draw the line at physical violence.

Unless, of course, you actually believe that making derogatory remarks about
Islam is comparable to what happened. It's not exactly clear from your
comment; do you?

~~~
shkkmo
I didn't see any attempt at comparison, I'm not sure where you are getting
that. I think you might take a moment and asses your response.

The point being made was just that this is a bad cycle. Responding to events
like this with increased hatred and racism will not lead to a reduction of
tensions in France.

As you said, the point is not who is right and who is wrong. The point is to
find a way to end the violence. Hatred won't do it (unless you can find a 3rd
part to unite in hatred of :).

~~~
_delirium
Yes, ISIS has even publicly stated that's one of their strategies, to polarize
Europe so that Muslims can no longer live in the "gray zone" of being both
Muslims and Europeans, a situation ISIS views as a threat to "true" Islam.

------
spoiledtechie
This should have been placed in politics.stackexchange.com.

This isn't truly searchable by google or Bing and stack exchange is.

Can someone please move this to the better alternative?

~~~
fasterthanlime
seems searchable enough:
[http://i.imgur.com/VwLGFxG.png](http://i.imgur.com/VwLGFxG.png)

~~~
an0nym1ty
This is completely tangential to the discussion of this thread, but so much of
google search is forecasting based on user's search history these days it's
hard to tell if it's just biased towards HN because we all visit it.

~~~
fasterthanlime
yup, that's why I always check these things in incognito mode.

Google also has this 'hide private results' setting that I keep checked, to
avoid bias (when DDG is not enough, anyway):
[http://i.imgur.com/2v1FV8n.png](http://i.imgur.com/2v1FV8n.png)

it's not first in the results anymore, btw — at the time of this comment, the
top three spots are time.com, france24.com and news.yahoo.com

------
micron7
I would very much like to see what people here think of the arguments
presented here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iBZkODgxA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iBZkODgxA)

------
jarek-foksa
I'm not really into the geopolitics and recent news, but what's wrong with
this plan? Hopefully the future European governments will be up to something
along those lines rather than balkanization followed by the final solution.

1\. Move all illegal migrants to a heavily guarded area akin to the Gaza
Strip. All EU members would pay for building and maintaining the camps. Base
the camps in a non-EU country so that drastic measures could be taken in case
situation gets out of control.

2\. Don't grant any new citizenships to legal migrants from high-risk
countries, instead issue permanent residence permits and then deport anybody
suspected of radicalization.

3\. Perform full-scale military intervention in the Middle East to restore the
old order. Ideally make deal with Russians and Syrian government to take care
of the most dirty tasks.

4\. Move migrants back to their homeland.

------
JackuB
This is a HN frontpage material only becuase it's on GitHub?

~~~
fabulist
It is interesting information of a technical nature relevant to an important
current event. That it is distributed in a manner HN finds quite palatable is
icing.

------
gotchange
Time for Europe to really take care of its backyard in the MENA.

Its policy of supporting despots and tyrants, the latest of which was Sisi of
Egypt ,to contain the radicals and terrorists, that they engender with their
oppressive policies on an industrial scale, has to change course soon.

Time for the European leaders to have some faith in the people of the region
that they would make a better future for themselves (Tunisia as an example)
and not fall victim to perpetual and vicious cycle of violence as they fear or
have led to believe.

I know that Europeans are in a very precarious situation between a rock and a
hard place where they know that tyrants are using them and holding the
security of their southern border as hostage and that they have to turn a
blind eye to their sytemic repression and prosecution of opposition in
exchange of not having to worry about taking considerable and resource
draining measures to secure the borders but on the other hand these very
tyrants have set domestic policies and failing economic programs that are
breeding more and more of these terrorists and desperate people by the day
that they are no longer can contain and put on leash i.e. increase in
aggregate numbers and the hit ratio for terrorists, not to mention that this
plays in the tyrants' hands increasing the leverage they have worsening the
awful even more.

Like with the movement to decriminalize/legalize marijuana in the west, it's
time for Europeans to exert more influence to legalize the aspirations and
legitimate demands of people in the MENA region for living in a true democracy
and free society and not be intimidated by the threats of tyrants and despots.

Time to operate on this ever-swelling cyst in the region before it explodes in
everyone's face and infect everything that it touches. I know that it will be
very messy and painful esp in the beginning but as we say here and I
paraphrase "Going through pain for an hour is better than having it every
hour"

Help us to help you.

