
I've been programming since I was 10, but I don't feel like a "hacker" - geofft
http://blog.lizdenys.com/2014/01/03/i-do-not-feel-like-a-hacker/
======
jere
My initial reaction was "that's not the definition of hacker" but when I tried
to find a written definition that matched what was in my head, I kept running
into the related stereotypes and connotations (e.g. being completely obsessed
with computers, Richard Stallman talking about coding until 7 in the morning).

I then read this link given in the article and I think I understand better
[http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/gendergap/www/geekmyth....](http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/gendergap/www/geekmyth.html)

My takeaway is this: _a lot_ of us feel impostor syndrome, feel that we'll
never be a _true hacker_. The difference is it appears easier for men, for
whatever reason, to ignore or move beyond those feelings. And you know maybe
that's a problem we should take seriously.

>Despite these feelings of difference, we find that male students report less
distress, are less affected by the perceived difference between themselves and
their peers, and leave the major in smaller proportion; and despite resistance
to total absorption in computing, they do not feel like frauds. The 36% of
male CS majors who say they feel different from their CS peers, regardless of
experience level or obsession level, do not question their ability to become
computer scientists if they choose to do so.

~~~
patejam
I enjoy RMS's take on being a "hacker": [http://www.stallman.org/articles/on-
hacking.html](http://www.stallman.org/articles/on-hacking.html)

Specifically, "Playfully doing something difficult, whether useful or not,
that is hacking."

~~~
nkvl
There's an argument to be made for the negative connotations contributing to
the term's longevity and adoption. In an environment where the myth of the
genius is alive and kicking, taboos need to be broken to qualify for the
label, though it's not always important what those taboos (social or
otherwise) are as long as you have some worthy advocates. A lot of this
labeling is done in hindsight, unsurprisingly, and it's going to become more
tame as the definition gets generalized and romanticized. Even the coding part
is slowly becoming less important, as shown in some of the posts and links
here. Eventually there will be some other club to place the exceptional in. We
can pretend there's no value judgement in calling someone a "hacker" all we
want, but that doesn't ring true. FWIW, my favorite hacker:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netochka_Nezvanova_(author)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netochka_Nezvanova_\(author\))

------
Udo
From personal experience, this resonated with me, complete from the rocky
start with high school CS in Logo onward.

I know the feeling, and (though I'm male) I recognize many of the waypoints
described. And I, too, don't feel like a real hacker. But of course, the word
means wildly different things to different people. Even though I love
programming very much and I'm doing it all the time, and especially doing it
for fun, it was only after joining HN that it dawned on me I could be
considered a hacker in some circles.

Still, my primary definition of being a hacker is someone who is insanely
active in hacker and cracker culture, someone very interested in systems
security, someone who knows to debug a defunct DSL modem given only an
oscilloscope and a bit of tinfoil. That's not me.

If I were to apply for a VC program that looks for hackers, I'd probably feel
like a bad fit or a complete fraud. Nevertheless, I probably _am_ a hacker.
Labels are always an imperfect solution.

One other thing about getting people to program: Male or female, I wouldn't
know where to start either. In school I was literally the only kid into actual
programming, out of about 500 students. It was only much later in life that I
made my first actual programmer friend, and I also recruited an unhappy
English major into programming, but most people just aren't interested. And of
those who can, and by necessity must, program most would never do it in their
spare time for fun.

~~~
jeswin
catb has the best definition of hacker I have seen:

\-
[http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html](http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html)

\- [http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-
howto.html](http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html)

\- The guys at hack-a-day or nyc resistor are hackers.

\- Fabrice Bellard is a hacker, for reasons you can see at
[http://bellard.org/](http://bellard.org/)

\- People who are _really good_ at *nixen are hackers, because of the nature
of the beast. Unix isn't about learning everything from a book, instead you
could hack it with what you know.

\- PG is a hacker for using LISP to build Viaweb (and ARC etc), but not for
"hacking" the startup ecosystem (that's just overuse of the term).

\- DHH is a hacker, for the creative ways in which he pushed Ruby

The key thing is "hack value". Hack value is about your technical expertise
and your creativity, and both of these things have to be present.

~~~
Udo
Okay, thanks for the correction. You confirmed my suspicions, I'm not really a
hacker. And neither are most people on HN I wager. That's yet another club
where a geek can fail to get into. Maybe we shouldn't be here, but I can
honestly say it's the most interesting community out there that matches my
favorite subjects.

I'm definitely neither Bellard, nor a LISP millionaire, nor remotely DHH, and
I already talked about the hack-a-day guys in my oscilloscope comment. The
verdict is in: I can't call myself a hacker. So what's the message here for
people like me? I guess the conclusion is for starters that I really am an
impostor in a lot of ways, including participating on this site.

~~~
S4M
Dude, who care if you are a hacker, and in which case, according to which
definition. Like many people here, you post insightful comments and have
interesting side projects - I recall one of your post where you explained how
you made a new language from scratch in five weekends with no experience in
compiler theory or language design.

I don't know what it makes you, but I think that's pretty awesome - and since
I'm not a hacker myself (for the same reasons you say you are not really a
hacker), me saying you're a hacker wouldn't make any sens.

~~~
morganherlocker
> you explained how you made a new language from scratch in five weekends with
> no experience in compiler theory or language design.

I agree that the term is pretty meaningless, but I am pretty certain this
would qualify under the most stringent of definitions. Personally, I prefer
the term 'tinkerer', since it does not come with all the baggage but captures
the spirit.

------
robomartin
Well, in my opinion the view a young person can develop by reading a site like
Hacker News is a skewed reality of what it is to be a software engineer, a
hacker.

One example of this is what I will generically call the "Google Interview". I
know brilliant engineers how have done massive non-trivial projects that have
generated millions of dollars in revenue who could not pass such an interview.

The other aspect is the constant exposure to the language-of-the-day and
framework-of-the-day club. I can see a young aspiring developer becoming
utterly disappointed when realizing it is nearly impossible to keep up with it
all. Where do you start? How do you learn this stuff? Someone could very
easily think they are not up to par if they can't walk in these mythical
shoes.

The truth is very different from that. There's a huge world out there for
software engineers. There are real problems to be solved. And, no, not
everything in software engineering lives and dies on a web browser or a smart
phone.

Is the OP saying that she needed to feel like a hacker to feel legitimate?
That would be sad.

What the hell is a hacker anyway? Definitions abound. In many ways it is more
about how someone might approach hardware and software problems than anything
else. You don't have to be YC material to be a legitimate software engineer.
One could very easily argue there are tons of software engineers out there
doing far more important work than almost any YC developer has done to date.
Most of them are invisible. Think about the people writing code for MRI
machines, aircraft avionics or even your car's ABS system.

If you are young and love software engineering please don't think that
building websites is the only way you are going to become somebody in this
business. Explore what's out there and dare to learn about other interesting
problems you might be able to solve.

~~~
lizdenys
> Is the OP saying that she needed to feel like a hacker to feel legitimate?
> That would be sad.

Hi! I am not, and I agree that it would be sad. I am happy to be satisfied
with who I am, what I do, and where I'm going. I may not identify with the
term "hacker" due to some of its connotations, but I do feel like I get to
playfully work on difficult things--one of the few definitions of a hacker I
relate to and fortunately the one that I think best embodies its true spirit.

Unfortunately, many people I know who have yet to feel established in the
field do feel at least a small need to relate to the "hacker" to feel like a
software engineer. As there are parts of this I could relate to (even if they
are not bringing me down right now), I thought I'd share my experiences.

~~~
robomartin
You've accomplishe a lot. Realize you will never know everything there is to
know in CS. How you approach what you don't know is what makes a difference.

There's a lot of folklore going around in places like HN. Very soon kids are
going to think that if they don't use vim, reject the mouse and do away with
Windows they will never be real software developers. It's a bunch of macho
nonsense.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Well hold on. Windows _does_ suck, and we _should_ do away with it!

------
argumentum
It seems this discussion is going all the way back to high school and
childhood. In that case, let's keep in mind that many (most?) of the kids who
spent all their time "hacking" did so because they were often excluded from
more social activities. Remember, there _was essentially no social reward_ for
"hacking" (unlike getting good grades, being a great athlete, able to tell
jokes, speak in public, dance, sing, play an instrument and most other skills
kids might develop).

Sure, today hacking is "cool" .. because money, fame and power are cool and
many hackers have achieved that. But until very very recently (last couple
years), the only reasons a kid would start hacking were curiosity and having
little else to do because _they_ couldn't (or didn't want to) fit in.

With that in mind, this article disturbs me in a way I can't easily explain.
Particularly when she describes feeling like an imposter "in the face of the
_desirable_ hacker stereotype" and even claims the nerdy clothes that hackers
wear are _in and of themselves exclusionary_ simply because one might choose
to be more fashionable.

This is _no different_ from her stereotypical "hacker" complaining about
having to wear different attire to fit in at a school dance (or should he/she
later choose to go into banking, law or any profession other than programming
at a startup).

I went to a top high school, where academic excellence (grades, SATs, AP
tests, what college you got into, etc) was definitely _cool_ and admired.
_Even then_ , if you saw a kid hacking in the hallway (or painting or
otherwise working on things completely of their own choosing) you knew that
he/she was likely at the bottom of the social totem pole.

These very people are who pg was speaking to in many of his early essays like
[http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html](http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html)

The fact of the matter is that a disproportionate number of the best hackers
come from that population. Those who were the "cool kids" in high school may
want in now, but they'll have to earn their place at the table. If that means
working ungodly hours, having to change the way they speak or dress to "fit
in" .. when in Rome ..

(please do not misinterpret anything I wrote as condoning sexism, which is
despicable in any setting)

~~~
contrast
If her point is no different to complaining about fitting in at a school
dance, which I think is true, then surely the better response here is to
recognise the pattern - it's bad when people feel they cannot belong in an
environment that should be welcoming.

The discussions should be "bad things are bad, let's make things better".

I'd summarise your comment as very different: "That bad thing that you didn't
like? It reminds me of a bad thing I didn't like. But I'm doing OK now, so I
find it disturbing that you even mention your bad thing. Why should I want to
help stop it, just because it's bad? Why would I want to get rid of the
irrational, selfish barriers that protect my position?"

~~~
wcummings
I think he makes an interesting point, though: hacker culture is to a large
degree the culture of modern social exclusion. There is a sort of horrible
irony to more well-adjusted people feeling excluded from it.

I know personally, when I was a teenager, "hacking" was definitely an escape,
not so much from social isolation, but definitely from Problems You Don't
Want. I can understand why people might be offended by the authors stance.

------
qubyte
I want the education sector to start treating the ability to programme as they
do literacy and numeracy. Everyone should know how to write a letter and read,
but not necessarily write a novel. Everyone should know how to count, but not
need to win the Fields Medal. I believe that everyone should be comfortable
with looking at a script and tweak it to their needs, but not necessarily have
to create a AAA game from scratch.

I was vaguely aware of programming as a child, but had no education (unless
you count mailmerge and a broken floor-turtle) and certainly no encouragement
at school (in the UK if my spelling hasn't given it away). I basically forgot
all about it until the middle of my degree (physics) when C was mandatory. It
took until two years after a PhD to work out that a career in programming was
what I really wanted.

Do I regret the way I got here? Nope. I learnt a lot of cool stuff along the
way. But had it not been for that C course I may never have worked out what I
wanted. I got lucky, and luck should not be a factor.

~~~
NAFV_P
> _I was vaguely aware of programming as a child, but had no education (unless
> you count mailmerge and a broken floor-turtle) and certainly no
> encouragement at school (in the UK if my spelling hasn 't given it away)._

I too was very vaguely aware, but in the mid nineties all I ever came across
was Windows. Hell, I didn't start programming until I was 31, everyone else on
this thread makes me feel like a real late starter.

> _I basically forgot all about it until the middle of my degree (physics)
> when C was mandatory._

I thought FORTRAN would have been a good candidate for a mandatory language in
a physics degree.

~~~
qubyte
It was an option the year before, but not enough people wanted to take it and
the class was cancelled. I'm glad to have learnt C, because it came with an
introduction to bash and ssh. Whilst the terminals we used were windows, we
were logging into a linux box via putty. This way I got to learn the UNIX way
of writing tiny, single purpose programs that operate on STDIN and STDOUT for
piping together. I guess the philosophical education was at least as important
as the code itself.

~~~
NAFV_P
> _It was an option the year before, but not enough people wanted to take it
> and the class was cancelled._

Makes me wonder, if you were taking a physics degree now what would be on the
table?

I started on C++, then downgraded to C, I prefer life to be simple (?$%?). I
also threw out the IDE's and installed ubuntu alongside Windows.

A few weeks ago I lost my desktop and could only work in recovery mode. It was
great, like living in the 1970's. tty only, using Vim and Joe as editors and
reading help pages with elinks. Bash is smashing.

~~~
qubyte
I believe python is popular these days, but I think C is still the language of
choice. A few years back when I was a TA I was tutoring on a C course at Leeds
university, and Sussex (where I did my undergrad) they're pretty hardcore, so
I reckon it's still C with the occasional course in F77.

I started on emacs with that C course. These days I use sublime text for my
own machines, and vim elsewhere (although I'm not very good). The end result
of all this? I finish sentences with a semicolon and save with colon-w-q (or
x, but wq is way more satisfying); :wq

~~~
NAFV_P
I was wondering if Haskell would be good for scientific computation. It has
bignum like Python, but I think it is more popular among mathematicians than
physicists.

Joe can emulate Emacs, Pico and another editor called WordStar (which I think
is hardly ever used these days), but it doesn't emulate Vi. Perhaps the guy
who wrote it hates Vi. Interestingly I believe Vi was designed for writing C
source. Bill Joy was working on the first BSD OS around the same time, the
original Vi was probably involved in the bootstrapping process.

If you want a massive list of editors:

[http://texteditors.org](http://texteditors.org)

------
sirmarksalot
This resonated a lot with me as well -- elementary school computer science
education in the '90s wasn't very developed. I went to a high school that had
one of the better computer science programs for that level (in that it
existed), but it still wasn't anything compared to the university level. The
people who really learned the stuff were a self-motivated group who interacted
outside of class as a club. These kinds of extracurricular studies were at
best ignored by school faculty, and for students like myself, who was falling
behind the curve in the school's demanding math/science/language program, were
actively discouraged.

There's a crucial distinction between my experience and hers, though. I had
the support of a core group of computer nerds, egging each other on and making
simple games and the like. This group was almost entirely male, and were
mostly interested in other stereotypical geeky hobbies like video games,
anime, and tabletop role-playing games. We weren't consciously exclusionary,
but anyone who didn't match the profile was probably going to feel very out of
place.

I remember in my CS course, there were two girls in the class, and they were
most definitely not part of the clique, even though they were brilliant by
most objective definitions. One of them was definitely in the "gifted"
category, and while the rest of the class was concerned with making video
games, she was writing an equation plotter. We didn't talk to her all that
much.

My point with all this rambling is that there's a lot of bundling of interests
that goes on, all of them male-dominated, and if you aren't into those things,
you don't get the same peer education as somebody who is. I think this
explains a lot of the gender disparity we see in CS education today, and I
don't know what to do about it. Education should not be tied to social
cliques, but in reality, it often is.

~~~
needacig
You have explained perfectly what I also believe. My experience supports this.
I wish I could upvote you more.

------
element_4
I don't know if I ever thought "hacker" was only a term for someone who has
been programming for 10+ years. I'm about to graduate from college, and I
started programming my freshman year. I unfortunately never got to see the
beauty and joys of programming until then, and it does suck a little bit. But
does that automatically not make me a hacker?

Yet, I am arguably successful. I got a job offer from Amazon at the start of
my senior year and took it, and of course, I eventually want to start my own
company that's why I'm on this site. I understand the stigma because I
personally have never told anyone I only started programming in college. I've
never been asked either. I love playing around with new languages and learning
all I can about software, but I don't feel I'm that far behind people who
started programming early if even behind at all.

We need to stop acting like people who have been programming since kids have a
huge advantage. It is much more about what you constantly put in, and there
are numerous other ways to be a hacker then just programming. Most people who
didn't program might already have the "hacker" in them and just need to attach
the programming element of it.

~~~
ps4fanboy
People who feel alienated of the unique culture of programming will say
anything to change it. They want everything to be normative, everything must
be diverse everyone must have the same opportunities and pointing to gifted
people and saying hey your a hacker and thats really good is a huge threat to
that idea. It is almost like thinly veiled socialism.

~~~
raganwald
You say "socialism" like it's a bad thing. I don't feel "alienated" from
hacker culture, everyone I've met seems quite nice and receptive to me
(although perhaps I'm in the wrong room).

But perhaps what I see is that this is really nice, and why can't we share it
with more people? Hacking isn't a zero-sum game. If we double the number of
people trying to write open source, isn't that a win for everybody?

It's not like encouraging somebody else to write code takes my job away, or
dilutes the amount of genius to go around.

Think positively, my friend. "Socialism" may or may not work when we're
building massive factories built out of atoms, but perhaps the economy of bits
works differently than the economy of atoms.

Disclosure: [http://braythwayt.com/posterous/2014/01/03/hello-my-name-
is-...](http://braythwayt.com/posterous/2014/01/03/hello-my-name-is-reginald-
and-i-am-a-socialist.html)

~~~
tylerkahn
To be fair, IIRC, you've been programming for longer than many people on this
site have been alive.

(I listened to your interview on Javascript Jabber.)

~~~
raganwald
I had some natural advantages, my mother was a systems analyst, and I had some
early precocity.

But I also ran into some very encouraging people at key moments in my youth,
for example there were various students at UofT who encouraged me to tinker
with WATFIV and SNOBOL programs on punch cards. Some even let me use their
terminals to play with APL.

I cannot say what would have happened if they had shooed me away and/or called
security, but I think that my longevity in programming owes something to
people who were welcoming.

------
aperrien
What gets held up as an ideal gets followed, especially as children, when
we're looking to establish our identities. I wonder if promoting a more
diverse image of "hacking" to be included in other hobbies will help. While
programming has always been a passion of mine, I also like astronomy, travel,
and politics. Perhaps there should be discussion of how to change the practice
and culture of programming to be one that more children can follow if they
desire?

~~~
ps4fanboy
No one is promoting the hacker image, the image is defined by those seen to be
the hackers. Who are you suggesting we point to and say look at what this
person did to make the image more diverse?

~~~
aperrien
Perhaps someone like this?

[http://pando.com/2014/01/02/from-coding-to-the-catwalk-
this-...](http://pando.com/2014/01/02/from-coding-to-the-catwalk-this-high-
fashion-model-has-a-secret-double-life/)

I'm not really saying we need to promote pizza and staying up all night
coding, it's that we need to maybe make it more inclusive, to encourage more
people to join the tech party.

~~~
ps4fanboy
This is the point I making, she is hardly famous for being a successful
hacker, and that's the problem. If you want more diverse role models they have
to achieve something, this whole article is look I am pretty and smart isnt
that amazing? If anything it is making things worse.

------
jeremyjh
I can relate to a lot of this though I'm not female I had some of the same
early experiences. I did some BASIC on a VIC-20, some Logo on the school's
Apples. Some programming in a specialized adventure game development tool on a
Mac. I got lots of ad-hoc "systems" experience because I wanted to know how
things worked behind the scenes. I never really considered doing "programming"
as a career because it was "too much like math" or something. I didn't find
out about Linux till I was 20 (this was in 1996, but still...not much cred!).
I never would have had this career except for a lucky first job where I had so
much time on my hands I learned how to program and automate all my tedious
help-desk work. So they gave me more. Later took some comp-sci classes though
never did finish a degree in it - its too hard to schedule 300+ level classes
at night at a real university. I remember reading the description for the
first batch of YCombinator and thinking "thats not me...". Now - I feel more
like a hacker at 37 then ever before.

Anyway, Paul was really talking about the fact that he can't make someone into
a hacker in three months. Never did he say that people can't become a hacker
at the advanced age of 22.

------
sown
I identify with the sentiment this person wrote about. My first language was
GW basic/logo at around that age, learned some pascal/C around high school,
and just tried to learn more.

I miss those days, being a youngster and programming: doing without totally
understanding but still learning. I still do stuff on my own, though, but no
one will look at it or care.

But now all I do is fix bugs. I got one job after school, where I created
something new. Looking back on it now, it was garbage but it was my garbage.
That was the last time, though. Now I do 'sustaining' work. I don't mind but
it feels like the industry as a whole has turned their back on me. I'm
considering doing a startup sooner or later.

~~~
GuiA
Do side projects. A small web game, iPhone app, terminal utility... it doesn't
matter what it is, what matters is getting back to that state where you're
proud of "your garbage " :)

Spending a few hours over the evenings and weekends is totally doable, and
within a few weeks you'll have gotten further than you may think!

~~~
sown
> Spending a few hours over the evenings and weekends is totally doable, and
> within a few weeks you'll have gotten further than you may think!

That's true. I do try to do stuff like this bug it's hard to find meaning,
though.

~~~
minikomi
An easy way to get started might be the daily programmer subreddit .. It's fun
looking over other peoples solutions especially in the more esoteric languages
& satisfying to be solving even trivial problems within a community.

------
vezzy-fnord
I'm not really aware of any "hacker" stereotype?

I think the issue is that the word hacker has too many meanings, and some of
them contradictory. A hacker can be a prankster, a skilled programmer, a
creative programmer, a skilled/creative programmer with some vague ideology
that supports freedom of information, a computer security breacher, a person
who tinkers with electronics, a person who subverts any type of system or
authority (reality hacker/culture jammer), any sort of whimsical and creative
fellow who applies unorthodox solutions to his everyday life, etc.

In addition, a hack can mean: an unskilled or untalented person, a charlatan,
an inelegant but efficient solution to a problem (a kludge), an inelegant and
inefficient solution to a problem (cruft), an elegant but unconventional
solution to a problem, a skilled application of marketing (growth hack), a
culture jam (reality hack), hacking off a limb, a prank, a computer security
exploit or breach, a program to cheat at video games and so forth.

As far as I know, the "hacker" stereotype is that of the skilled but evil and
socially isolated computer criminal.

------
gum_ina_package
I thought being a hacker was more of a mindset.

~~~
ps4fanboy
Agreed, to me a hacker was someone who liked to code at work and for fun and
is probably better at it than the norm because of it.

------
alan_cx
Being a programmer does not make you a hacker. In fact, being a brilliant
programmer does not make your a hacker. I suppose its like being a driver does
not make you a racing driver. Hacking existed long before computers and
programming.

------
jlees
To me, a hacker is someone who thinks creatively about problems, and who views
technology as a set of tools to solve them. The YC question about "the time
you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage" is,
to me, most resonant of the 'hacker' ethos. Although many answers I've seen to
this question involve using a computer system to solve a non-computer problem,
the sheer variety of non-tech "hacks" out there speaks volumes about what a
'hacker' is and does.

To me, the label 'hacker' isn't claimed, it's earned. I call myself a hacker,
though I didn't until someone else did. I've never broken into secure systems
armed only with a 28.8 bps modem and active matrix screen, though -- I use it
entirely in the 'problem-solver' sense of the word, and proudly.

Having programmed since childhood doesn't make me a hacker. I owe far more to
years of Latin study, an unhealthy interest in logic problems and strategy
games, and being trained via school that there is always a solution to every
problem if you apply yourself hard enough.

But on the other hand, if I were just learning to program now, how much of the
'hacker' mindset would come along with it? Very little, in and of itself; I
tutor beginning students and I'm always trying to teach them how to solve
problems and look for answers, how to be creative and elegant, and how to
reuse other people's work -- it wasn't until I started mentoring that I
realised how little of this some people do naturally, and I still don't know
the reasons why that is.

On a side note, and having just re-read _Little Women_ , I have a thought
about hacking and poverty. When you are poor, you have to be creative. How
much of that mindset overlaps with what makes a good hacker? How many hackers
grew up in disadvantaged circumstances and learned to make the most of the
resources they had? How many hackers hung out in libraries, absorbing
information like sponges, because it was free and warm and both their parents
were at work?

------
GarvielLoken
This article strikes me to centrer around concepts such as "impressionable",
"self identify" or "feel like a hacker".

1\. The author tries to blame society ( everybody except herself ) for not
noticing the field of computer science. This is a very strange statement.
Anyone using a computer must realise it didn't appear on the earth from god
almighty him self. "stumbled upon opportunities early on" here again the
author is trying to blame the society for the personal problem of a lack of
willpower and curiosity for finding out how computers works, instead she
comfortably chooses to say that the society did not do its part.

2\. "Still, I imagine that this is unfortunately more common among women due
to the ongoing sexism surrounding the field and the effects that this has on
young, impressionable women.". Again with the personal lack of willpower.
Being impressionable is a personal problem and the solution is not stopping to
peruse an interest. Frankly I don't have any sympathy for anyone who refuses
to do their own analysis of a subject and instead trust and conforms to other
peoples view on the matter, which is what being "impressionable" is.

3\. " In addition to being unable to self-identify with the "hacker"
stereotype,". This is at the heart of the authors argument, "unable to self-
identify". How on earth can this ever be a problem? What does it even mean?
She wants to erase her personality and become a profession completely? If you
like something I assume you are interested in the technique, art or science of
the sport or hobby. Not because you want to "feel" like a practitioner of that
sport/hobby? I really can't understand an argument that is based on how much
you feel like a practitioner. If you are doing something you are doing it
because you enjoy it or find it fascinating.

Every child will during upbringing become exposed to computers and if they are
interested they will ask as how they work or how the programs are made.
Anything after that is a pure personal problem, a willpower issue. Blaming
others for ones own failings is not a valid argument and I wont respect it.

~~~
dcalacci
I get furious at the types of comments that plague these submissions to hacker
news. usually it starts when someone submits an article that in some way holds
society at large accountable for things like the lack of women in STEM, or
someone’s difficulty in entering the “hacker” or “maker” culture.

this article hits both targets really well. and, like clockwork, the top
comment does the following:

1\. immediately suggests that it’s absurd that the author could blame society
in any way for her difficulty/inability to enter the field of computer
science.

2\. uses his now-accepted theory that it is always, unfailingly, willpower
(and only willpower) that prevents one from doing anything to basically posit
that sexism doesn't exist (because it's all willpower). he implies that sexism
in tech is a fault of a character flaw - impressionability

3\. completely invalidates the concept and social power of identifying as part
of a larger group. this guy is so privileged and used to identifying as a
“hacker” that he can’t even comprehend the concept that someone might want to
identify as a hacker (but have trouble doing so, say, because of comments like
this)

if it’s not something like the above, it’s a comment that completely ignores
the content of the article, and nit-picks about something like what the author
_actually_ meant by the term “hacker” (which, if it was spoken by a man, would
most likely not raise such questions)

I know I'm spitting venom, but I see this stuff so often and say nothing...I
felt like it was necessary here.

~~~
needacig
Thank you for saying something this time. I agree this "impressionability is a
character flaw" business is bull. As if reacting badly to other people
behaving negatively toward you and excluding you is something only worthless
people do. As if humans don't have profound effects on other humans through
their words and actions. As if the author is somehow above being in anyway
influenced by other humans. I'm sure he's not, but he wants you to think so.

~~~
GarvielLoken
So much talk about games and making an appearance. I assure you that I don't
care either way what your opinion is of me.

It is always choice to handle your reaction. Also you are strawmanning, it is
a far cry from that society didn't actively shove a computer and a programming
book to you as a child and people behaving negatively towards you.

------
spindritf
You're a hacker when a hacker calls you a hacker. All that "being able to
self-identify" is narcissism.

~~~
velis_vel
> You're a hacker when a hacker calls you a hacker. All that "being able to
> self-identify" is narcissism.

Hackers have called me a hacker, therefore I'm a hacker. I now declare that
every human being is a hacker if they self-identify as one.

~~~
achernya
This has the problem of "where does the first hacker come from?" Then I
realized the first hacker is almost certainly Ada Lovelace, who wrote the
first computer program for Babbage's Analytical Engine.

------
ps4fanboy
_I don 't fit the stereotype and am okay with that: I wear dresses and heels
instead of hoodies and sneakers, I keep a regular sleep schedule_

I dont remember that being the stereotype for hackers. I would be interested
to hear from other people about what they think? But to me it has been someone
who is intensely interested in computers and is very good at it. What they
wear (wow really shallow much) hasnt really ever factored into it.

~~~
jacalata
What they wear is (and has always been) a huge part of it. Here's a bunch of
comments from years ago about suits at interviews, for a specific example:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1639740](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1639740)

------
upofadown
Traditionally a "hacker" was someone who was obsessed with mastering computers
to the extent that it was the most important thing in their life. I once had a
friend complain about the time wasted in eating, sleeping and having sex, time
that could be better spent in recreational programming. I once had an
instructor that partially solved that problem by subsisting entirely on 7-Up
(a type of soft drink). He almost died as a result.

So using that definition, being a hacker is a type of seriously negative
affliction. No one chooses the hacker lifestyle. The only good aspect occurs
if you "recover" and find you can make a living programming for others. Pre-
recovery, hackers often deliberately work in low level non-technical
professions.

There is a sort of low level legend that straight women are immune to this
sort of condition. Interesting if true. Such a revelation could result in some
much needed reverse discrimination. There is nothing worse than accidentally
hiring someone with a hidden overriding agenda for a programming position.

------
dysoco
I remember when I got introduced to programming.

I was about 9/10, not sure exactly, I came across some article that taught you
how to create a virus using the windows notepad (lame, I know), turns out the
"virus" was just a fork bomb written in ms-batch.

I quickly got into the hacker culture, I went into some underground forum
where there was a big "ms-batch scene", I have no idea why, but this guys were
implementing games in ascii, trojans, interpreters... all in Batch.

And so I started learning, Batch is a horrible language, yet pretty simple to
learn, in the meantime I heard about this mythical developers who wrote code
in C or Python, languages I thought inaccessible and extremely complex.

I remember my first "big" project, I wrote some kind of graphical adventure
where you were a "hacker" trying to "hack" into someone's PC by using commands
such as "ping" and "telnet" (I had no idea about system administration or
pentesting at the time).

Thinking about that horrid code, take in mind this was Batch, so no private
variables, no functions, no structs... just an endless pile of GOTOs.

This is even more funny considering that this was 5 or 6 years ago, in a time
where Python, Ruby and Javascript were a thing, I could have gone the easy
way, but I took the side-path... and I'm glad.

I am now 16, I still have a lot to learn yet I've also learnt a lot. I do
consider myself a hacker, just because I write code for fun and like
reinventing the wheel when possible. But the definition of "hacker" is very
wide, for me, a "hacker" is everyone who enjoys writing code, maybe they work
8-17 writing Java in the Enterprise, but, if you enjoy what you do, if you
come back home and keep writing code, if you want to improve: then you are a
hacker.

------
ps4fanboy
_The prevalence of the 'hacker' stereotype hurts those who don't identify with
it, such as women_

The stereotype of prodigies in sports is also hurting everyone like Michael
Jordan and Tiger Woods, why should other sports people be disadvantaged by not
starting at an early age. Really?

 _" Hacker" doesn't equate to the best software engineer, the best founder, or
much of anything other than having benefited from a longer period of time to
gain experience—extra time that may or may not have been used effectively to
gain additional knowledge _

This hasnt been my experience, seems like a lot of what ifs.

~~~
pyrocat
Professional sports aren't STEM careers? Athletes are often celebrities that
young people look up to, whereas hackers are not.

~~~
ps4fanboy
I never said professional sports are STEM careers. And young people do look up
to celebrity hackers, what exactly is your point?

------
codeoclock
I've also been programming since I was about 10. I remember doing some Logo
stuff, I recently just found a zip drive with my first program - Tic Tac Toe
in logo. I certainly don't remember being encouraged to program until I was at
the very least 17 when I was in high school being taught some bullshit
'computer ethics' course by a man with a PhD in Computer Science who just
wanted to show people how to code. I guess I'm saying, the encouragement
factor for any young programmer is very low, and should be much better. It
sounds to me from reading this blog post that it was harder for you, possibly
(probably?) because you're a woman. That really sucks, it shouldn't be harder,
it should be equally hard for women and men, and it should be getting easier
for both all the time. That's why things like Code Club and various online
ways of learning programming are so important in my opinion. When programming
is put on the curriculum at school, parents are more likely to take it
seriously rather than act like my parents who tried to stop me using the
computer. I really admire the work of people like @BenNunney who through stuff
like Rewired State makes hacking more accessible to young, talented people.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4CC45E6TAY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4CC45E6TAY)

Just my two cents.

------
UUMMUU
I feel like "hacker" is the same as throwing around "hero" you cannot bestow
it upon yourself and when someone calls you it, you pretty much are required
to say "I'm not but so-and-so is the real h(ero|acker)". I have a friend who
likes to say "I want to go down to the XYZ meetup and meet other hackers" and
it starts to just sound somewhat pathetic.

------
MichaelDickens
I'm not a young woman so it's hard for me to say, but it looks to me like
people are doing a much better job of encouraging young women to program.
There are lots of programs to support women in CS. On the other hand, I don't
know how effectively these solve the deeper cultural problems where it's not
considered "normal" for girls to be interested in coding.

~~~
ps4fanboy
I have a lot of female coding friends, we grew up together and one of the
biggest barriers they had when we were at university was from their female
friends. Suggesting that their choice would stop them from getting a husband
and they would turn into a basement dweller.

~~~
pyrocat
Sounds like they had shitty friends.

~~~
ps4fanboy
This was the normal situation for most of the women I graduated with, huge
pressure from their female social groups to not do programming. On the flip
side, they had lots of friends in the course because it was a massive sausage
party. The point is the hardest thing they had to do was overcome all the
vitriol being slung at them from their own gender.

------
fxtentacle
I absolutely agree that the "hacker" label is stupid.

I've been writing software since I am seven years old. When I was younger, I
actually did hack into my schools security system. Still, I cannot identify
with the term "hacker". I'd say "builder" is a more apt description of what I
do in my life.

------
teddyh
In humans, differences in physical and behavioral traits tend to lead to
isolation, which leads to cultural differences¹. That’s why the general trait
of being very curious, experimental and focused on technology and problem-
solving has given rise to (among others) the hacker culture and its associated
persona. But, one need not consider oneself a part of the hacker culture if
one does not want to. Indeed, one can be a programmer without having any of
the above traits and/or consider oneself part of the hacker culture.

1) Regarding physical traits leading to culture, the same development can be
seen to have given rise to Deaf culture, and also in the very concepts of
“men” and “women”, which are more cultural in nature than most people think.

------
aaronem
You're a hacker when a hacker calls you a hacker.

------
midas007
Anyone that calls themselves (hacker|cool|awesome) is just a poser, by
definition.

------
puppetmaster3
I consider myself a professional, and not a hacker or a hack. It is a somewhat
derogatory, and as a programmer I can tell you don't have to accept it. Just
correct them if someone call you. There is an application for a incubator,
they asked if there are any hackers on the team. We 3 programmers looked at
each other and filled out: no, no hackers in our company.

------
lmm
All labels and stereotypes are stupid and exclusionary. But what's the
alternative? When you're hiring and don't have time to interview everyone, any
easy filter that's even slightly correlated with technical ability is a
valuable one; if, say, "watches star trek" is such a factor then an
interviewer would be stupid to ignore it.

------
erikpukinskis
There's this funny little problem.

There's a substantial slice of "hackers" who really enjoy saying Crazy Shit
But No Wait It's Totally True And Makes Sense If You're Smart Enough To
Process This Obscure Worldview That Makes It Make Sense. I know, I am one of
those people.

Woz gleefully paying for things with sheets of $2 bills is a perfect example:
[http://hackaday.com/2012/08/03/woz-prints-and-spend-his-
own-...](http://hackaday.com/2012/08/03/woz-prints-and-spend-his-own-2-bills/)

And really, it can be super fun! Most of us get a little rush from seeing
something new in the world, and it can be a fun way to give people that rush.

It also really pisses some people off, and it can be really counterproductive.
The trouble is that these hackers live in a world where there's never a bad
time for a fun intellectual diversion. _Fun intellectual diversions are the
reason for being alive, of COURSE it 's a good time._ But other people live in
other worlds, where getting to the school by 4:30 to pick up their child is
actually higher on the priority list.

And so, to the word "Hacker".

I suspect there are a handful of people here who were hackers before the word
"hacker" came to mean "cracker". But I suspect for most of us, myself
included, "hacker" meant Kevin Mitnick first. Only later, when reading Steven
Levy's "Hackers" did I learn about the MIT model railroad club, the "true"
purpose of phone phreaking (it's fun, not profit!) did I start to understand
the definition of "hacker" that Paul Graham espouses today.

The thing is, Steven Levy _explained_ that everyone thinks hackers are
undersexed males who break into computers, and _we still adopted this label
for ourselves_. For the lulz. Because we get off on that moment of
misunderstanding followed by the superiority of knowing that we have a
different definition for the word than everyone else.

And if I'm being honest, this happened on purpose. We wanted it to be a
somewhat exclusive clubhouse where you have to know the secret definition of
"hacker" and it helps to know what a y combinator is. We wanted to keep out
all the MBA riff-raff, remember?

I'm not saying it's wrong, or a bad strategy. But this is the chickens coming
home to roost. When you make a secret handshake, you're going to alienate
Susie Derkins.

~~~
sirmarksalot
I think you can usually infer from context what a person means when they say
"hacker," and while people over the age of 60 may have difficulty with it,
most people in their 40s and younger have been exposed to the concept through
sites like "life hacker." It would be insulting to suggest that the author
does not know the difference between Steve Wozniak and Kevin Mitnick.

Even with that distinction, there's a distinction in my mind, and probably
many others', between a programmer and a hacker. I consider myself a fairly
skilled programmer, but not a hacker. Maybe I was back in high school, but not
anymore. I like programming, and I like learning new things about CS theory,
but I think "hacker" conveys something more than that. A hacker values speed
over correctness, figures out ways to put their programming knowledge to use
in their day-to-day life. A hacker believes that a few lines of Perl will save
the world.

I, on the other hand, like building systems that work, and the intellectual
satisfaction that comes from solving a data modeling problem. Real hackers are
obsessed with the potential of 3D printing, the nifty gadgets you can make
with an Arduino board, or a Raspberry Pi device. It's all about pushing the
envelope. I don't push envelopes. I like to identify a problem, solve it once,
and apply that solution wherever it fits. I can see how people might find that
a bit dry, but I personally find it satisfying.

They're different value sets, and different skill sets, and I think both are
necessary.

------
BigBalli
…you know how to write code. Why should it imply you're a hacker?

------
supersystem
Don't let anyone else tell you what is valuable in computing.

------
notastartup
I remember in the late 90s I was 10 or 11 and I figured out how to use the
public library internet for more than the limit of 30 minutes.

I wanted to use internet so bad but I was not allowed a computer so I always
hung out at the public library and I wished more than anything to use the
internet as much as possible.

I thought by asking how does the computer know when the 30 minute is up? There
must be a timer! Can I prevent the timer?

Sure enough, for half a second there's a dos terminal in windows 95 that is
displayed when I restart the computer. It took a few tries but I managed to
close it. 30 minutes passed and I was still on it. then an hour, another hour
passes and I'm still not logged out!

I used the internet all the day from morning to dark. I let my sister use it
too when I wanted to take a 'break'. I would see people check the wait list
look over at me and leave very annoyed.

The next week, the librarian who remembered me told me they would need my
library card as collateral, and that they will be keeping tabs on the time.
the jig was up.

This was my hacker moment. not exactly sophisticated but I wanted something so
bad and I got it.

~~~
jorgecastillo
Now I will have to share my own library story. When I was in middle school I
loved going to the library, reading books, comics, manga , magazines. In
summer I used to go very often to the library. I would walk from my house to
my local public library and go straight to he bathroom so that I could wipe
the sweat from my face and arms. I've had some of my happiest memories in that
library. I will share my most significant experiences.

The computers at the local public library had Windows (XP maybe?), we could
use them for an hour or more depending on how many people wanted to use the
computers. They also had computers in a kid section which had some games and
limited internet access (the library's portal) and some more computers in
another section which only had access to the library's portal. Once I was
using a computer which was only supposed to be used to check books, somehow I
discovered that a lot of times the library's portal also had a link to the
item in Amazon, and from Amazon I could get into Google and then to any
website. I got caught and scolded by a librarian, she told me "If you ever
used this computers to get into the internet again, we are going to cancel
your library card" or something like, well I never used those computers for
the internet again. I used the ones in the kids section and it felt awesome.

Another significant thing that at that time didn't seem that significant was
when I checked out a thick programming book on C or C++ I am not sure. I had a
vague idea about what a program was and I had read thick books before. I
didn't even had a computer at my house but I was so curious. I opened it tried
to make sense out of the text but I couldn't, it seemed like Chinese. The next
day I returned the book and I never again got interested in programming until
high school.

~~~
notastartup

        Another significant thing that at that time didn't seem 
        that significant was when I checked out a thick 
        programming book on C or C++ I am not sure. I had a vague
        idea about what a program was and I had read thick books
        before. I didn't even had a computer at my house but I 
        was so curious. I opened it tried to make sense out of 
        the text but I couldn't, it seemed like Chinese. The next
        day I returned the book and I never again got interested 
        in programming until high school.
    

I did a similar thing, but being so desperate for a computer around the late
90s, I eventually found an old Intel 286 computer that was abandoned in the
closet. It had monochrome monitor and I found something called QBASIC. I went
to the library and took out very heavy book on it and ended up just copying
the source code from the book. I didn't understand the code a great deal but
the game ran after running through several pages. I thought it was interesting
but realized trying to make a game is going to be very tough.

What sparked my interest soon after that was creating my own website after my
dad helped me host it on a free server. I still have a copy of it backed up on
a cd somewhere. It was created with Netscape Navigator. I showed my teacher
and classmates. It was magic. It was so awesome.

I took a course that taught Visual Basic and also QBasic in junior high. It
bored me because we were making very simple apps that I already knew. Wasn't
learning anything new. Also whenever I sped ahead or began working on other
things instructor would emphasize that I was to follow her step by step in an
excruciatingly slow pace that the rest of the students had to follow. If she
saw someone speeding ahead she would get angry and say STOP. Killed my
interest in programming.

Then came along counter-strike and and things pretty much went downhill from
there. It ruined my academic career playing it so much. I found out that the
guy who created counter strike also graduated from the university I would
attend some years after.

It wasn't until I saw my high school friend (nerdy guy who I used to tease in
high school but was secretly jealous of his programming knowledge) in
University that he inspired me to do what I thought was unthinkable, learn how
to code again. "You just stick with it" is what he told me when I asked how he
did it. He would show me the windows apps he made and I would be amazed how
one could create something from nothing. Even now, that is the magic that
drives me. Something out of nothing, and I stuck with it.

------
michaelochurch
"Hacker" is more about confidence, it seems, and cowboy coding isn't really a
good thing in most cases. Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of good things
about hacker culture's emphasis on flowful programming, fast iteration, and
frequent engagement (demo early and often). Those are all good things, but I
feel like (especially thanks to the VC chickenhawking) there is now more of an
emphasis on the superficial-- the overblown confidence that is usually just
massive ego and upper-middle- to upper-class entitlement-- that if you don't
have that arrogant air, you're not seen as a real hacker. This is sad, because
we need technologists more than ever to attack the truly hard problems
(cancer, oil scarcity, global warming, economic inequality) and instead, the
VC's have created this Disneyfied technology economy that is 99% hot air. It
wouldn't be a problem if that nonsense were self-limiting, but it's now
transferred _so_ much wealth to undeserving people as to have set off a
terrible and probably permanent housing price problem in the Bay Area.

~~~
supersystem
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism#Character...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism#Characteristics)
;)

------
BlakePetersen
For the true hacker experience,
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOHell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOHell)

~~~
ps4fanboy
Hacker in this context doesnt mean breaking into software and stealing stuff.

~~~
BlakePetersen
Didn't think it was necessary... but... /S

