
Switzerland to restrict EU immigration - youngerdryas
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22285886
======
jcfrei
I feel more and more ashamed as a swiss citizen - seeing xenophobia on the
rise across the country. it is disheartening to see the growing populism among
our politicians, mindlessly fueling the fears in the swiss population and
focusing the political deliberations on topics such as immigration, asylum-
seekers and highway taxes instead of the real issues in this country.

the swiss citizen need to wake up and realize which century they are in. in
the 21st century few swiss people understand the implications of globalization
and that immigration for better or worse is inevitable. as a matter of fact
the economy of this country would not stand as strong without the constant
influx of immigrants. it is time we acknowledge this fact and leave our
resentments towards europe behind.

for those who are interested, you'll find more extensive remarks in my blog:
<http://jcfrei.com>

~~~
SeoxyS
I'm a Swiss citizen living in San Francisco, and while I don't necessarily
agree with restrictive immigration policies (I'm in the process on getting a
US green card – don't get me started on how stressful that is), I also don't
see anything particularly wrong with it either.

Immigration in Switzerland is a big issue. Switzerland is _tiny_ and is
getting a little over-crowded. We don't have mega-cities, real estate prices
are through the roof, and new building permits are very restricted due to
regulation meant to preserve Switzerland's beautiful old cities.

When I grew up, Switzerland's population was 7 million. Now it's 8. That
almost 9% growth. The country hasn't gotten any bigger, though. While there
benefits to diversifying our culture, and bringing in skilled workers to
contribute to the economy; the average immigrant is probably a net detriment
to the country, because an influx of people puts a strain on Switzerland's
public services and its real estate market (Y'all think San Francisco rents
are bad? Try renting an apartment in Zurich!).

If you believe in the principle behind countries (a group of people coming
together to form a society that, like Capitalism, does what is in its best
interest), then you should understand the decision. If not, well, that's an
entirely different argument.

Personally, I'd like immigration to be merit based. Ie., immigrants would have
to demonstrate that they'd be a net asset to the country, in some fashion.

~~~
guelo
Sounds like you agree with immigration only when it benefits you personally.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
Only an idiot or an ideologue promotes a particular policy even though he
knows that it would harm him.

~~~
guelo
Sure, you can be a cynical selfish asshole when promoting public policy. But
it's not a very good argument when trying to convince others.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
Gotta love that false consciousness.

------
corin_
> _EU officials have always told Switzerland it cannot cherry pick only those
> parts of European policy it likes best._

Surely that's the exact reason they are _not_ a member of the European Union,
and exactly what they can do.

~~~
bradleyjg
Certainly they can. But then the EU can quit treating Switzerland like a
quasi-member, and instead treat them like a they do e.g. Turkey.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
Why? Because they're not as multicultural as the rest of Europe? Because they
dare to live in a way that suits themselves?

The promoters of diversity ueber alles certainly are in touch with their inner
totalitarian these days.

~~~
bradleyjg
Because it isn't worth the effort to bilaterally negotiate every little detail
with tiny Switzerland.

The EU has accommodated Switzerland's extreme go-it-alone ethos by offering
membership in all but name. They did so out of a sense of shared history,
affection, and mutual benefit. If the Switzerland is no longer interested they
can truly go it alone.

As for totalitarian, it's pretty rich to argue against free movement and in
favor of rank nationalism and accuse your interlocutors of totalitarian
tendencies.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
Aristotle contended that justice consists of treating equals equally, and
unequals unequally. You, on the other hand, want to treat Switzerland just
like Turkey, even though the two countries are strikingly unequal.

~~~
anigbrowl
Analogies do not work that way! /Morbo

You're using a very selective definition of 'equal.' Switzerland is certainly
_different_ from Turkey in various ways, but in this context they should be
assessed on their degree of legal ties to the EU - treaties signed and
complied with, for example. Arguably, Switzerland is getting far more benefits
from the EU than Turkey despite neither of them being actual members.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
And they are making far better use of those benefits than Turkey ever could.

For instance (since so many people here are fond of economic arguments), tiny
Switzerland (population under eight million) has a GDP a bit over six hundred
and thirty-five billion dollars.

But even though Turkey has a population nine times greater, that country's GDP
is only a hundred billion and change bigger than Switzerland's. If the Turks
were as productive, their economy would be the equal of China's, with only a
fraction of China's population.

The Swiss literally get more done before their morning coffee break than the
Turks do all day, maybe because they somehow manage to spend their time at
useful tasks rather than blowing up Kurds, staging military coups, listening
to crazy preachers, banning political parties, and so on. I'm glad the EU is
helping them out, because they deserve it.

~~~
anigbrowl
In other words, I'm right so you change the subject to how lazy the Turks are.
Well, Let's put Switzerland where Turkey is and vice-versa and see how well
the Swiss do, shall we? Sorry, but your post comes off as pretty thinly-veiled
racism, thanks to your highly selective use of statistics, dismissal of
geography, and conflation of multiple historical events into the present.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
Your idea of putting the Swiss in Turkey is unworkable for the simple reason
that nobody wants to go there. However, plenty of Turks move to Switzerland,
where, I gather, their economic performance continues to be less than stellar.
That crisp mountain air can only do so much, it seems.

------
oellegaard
I used to live in Switzerland for two years. Switzerland depends on foreigners
for high-skilled jobs - they simply have a higher demand for high-skilled
people than they currently produce. It seems like a super stupid idea to limit
that.

------
alanbyrne
I wonder what this means for us Swiss citizens working in other EU member
countries. Will they reciprocally boot us out?

------
wsc981
I think this policy makes perfect sense. In the Netherlands we've put the
borders wide open since the early 90s and perhaps even earlier due to EU
legislation. Overall the results have been terrible. These are some of the
issues we deal with nowadays:

\- many immigrants are on welfare, this puts a huge economic pressure on our
country.

\- many immigrants of Middle-Eastern descent put a huge pressure on our
healthcare (e.g. very many visits to our general practitioners).

\- the culture of many Middle-Eastern immigrants doesn't merge very well with
our Western culture. E.g. in Marrocan culture boys are generally higher
regarded as girls. Additionally these boys are one of our biggest problem
groups (very high criminality). Mothers don't have the means to correct these
boys.

\- I should note Marrocan girls seem to do pretty well in the Netherlands, low
criminality and generally hard working students at school with good grades.

It's interesting when browsing fora of Dutch-Marrocan people (for example
http.maroc.nl) you often see posts of Marrocan girls looking for converted (to
Islam) Dutch guys to wed. These girls often prefer converted Dutch partner
because the girls themselves would have more freedom in such a relation.

Many of these immigrants live close to each other. Since many woman don't work
and are not allowed to leave home by themselves except for shopping / visiting
the doctor, they often don't learn the Dutch language which results in them
being socially excluded from the Dutch society.

In my opinion our own government failed big time on this. We should have had
limited immigration from the start (early 70s or 80s perhaps?) and when people
would come we should have made sure immigrants would be spread around cities,
not living close to each other in "ghettos". This would have forced many
immigrants to integrate better in our society.

Either way, I think unlimited immigration puts huge strains on society and
eventually destabilises society as a whole because of culture clashes.

~~~
kintamanimatt
This is really quite xenophobic. The majority of migration is going to be from
the EU [1], and despite Europe's integration by way of treaties, I'm under the
impression that someone fresh off the boat (metaphorically speaking) can't
just suddenly claim all the welfare there is. Immigrants from non-EU countries
have to be able to show their ability to support themselves before they're
granted a visa, so I highly doubt they're a huge burden on society too.

Only something like 2.16% of population is from Morocco [2] and I really doubt
they're the result of society's ills. While I can't find statistics, I highly
doubt these people are draining the country's coffers through welfare
payments. Also, why do you think they're constantly seeking health care? Even
if they are, you seem to be saying they're unnecessarily visiting the doctor
and are hypochondriacs; again, I struggle to understand why this would be the
case just because they're from the middle east. Do you have any statistics
available that demonstrate middle-eastern immigrants visit their GP more than
born and bred Dutch, _and_ are feigning illness? (I'm not saying it's untrue,
I just can't find anything to support or refute your claim.)

The thing with the freedom of movement provisions is it works both ways: the
Dutch are just as able to leave and move to another EU nation as other EU
nationals are able to move to the Netherlands. Quite a good number of Dutch
emigrate both to within and outside the EU, which is fair and fine.

Immigration, at least in the US, can be argued to have quite a positive effect
on society. [3] I see no reason for this not to apply to the Netherlands.

What your argument really seems to boil down to is that there are people from
a different tribe that are living among _your_ tribe and, by way of
confirmation bias, you notice all the things they do wrong.

No society is perfect and not all immigrants are going to integrate into
society or be a net benefit, but many more will be. Relatively speaking, the
Netherlands has its shit together and I fail to see any evidence that supports
your claim that the Dutch standard of living is being significantly eroded
because of brown people.

[1] [http://www.cbs.nl/en-
GB/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/ar...](http://www.cbs.nl/en-
GB/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2012/2012-011-pb.htm)

[2]
[http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Download/Population__origin_2...](http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Download/Population__origin_250413021841.html)

[3] [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/opinion/the-beneficial-
imp...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/opinion/the-beneficial-impact-of-
immigrants.html?_r=0)

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
What you call xenophobic, others call noticing what is right in front of their
noses.

~~~
kintamanimatt
Could it be confirmation bias?

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
Stereotypes don’t materialize out of thin air. If they did that you’d see a
more random distribution of competing stereotypes.

~~~
kintamanimatt
Stereotypes don't appear out of thin air, but they aren't independently formed
either; they get taught and passed on by parents and peers. Confirmation bias
also plays a role in perpetuating them too.

After all, if you hold the belief that women are bad drivers, did you
independently come to this conclusion based on an accurate assessment of
driving skill and gender, or did you hear "ha, women drivers!" over and over
as a kid and subsequently see every mistake a woman driver made and mutter to
yourself, "ha, women drivers!"?

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
The image of the immigrant as invariably hard-working, noble, and law-abiding
gets taught and passed along too, not by parents and peers but by business
interests seeking cheap labor and political parties seeking permanent
dominance by means of electing a new people.

When you label something as confirmation bias, make sure you're looking
through the right end of the telescope.

------
shell0x
Switzerland seems to be the only country in Europe which gets it right. They
also have a 'real' democracy(grassroots democracy), which is a huge advantage,
because people can vote for nearly everything.

~~~
oellegaard
How is that an advantage? Sure, they get to vote on roundabouts in the city,
but having that many votes have also led to one of the lowest participation
rates, when they vote, in Europe.

~~~
nickik
Most people dont care about most of the things and so they dont vote most of
the time. Some people vote only on the lower levels, some only on the highest.

I myself do normally not vote on village level (5000 people) because the
matters are quite trival, while I vote on the level that involve things like
immigration. I know other people that do to opposit because truth is that the
village level things probeblly still have a bigger impact on your live then
the country wide things.

If there is a vote on something really importent that a lot of people feel is
importent participation rates shoots up quite a bit.

------
agilebyte
So is the problem essentially the rising cost of real estate? See I was under
the impression that IF you structure your economy correctly and you have net
surplus (of money) and IF you draw immigrants from all social strata, surely
these people will just continue in the trend? Some will be workers, some
employers, some have nots? The only problem would be a country getting cramped
so it costs more to build the same type of buildings, roads etc.

~~~
mjn
From what I've read of it, a lot of it is cultural as well. Outside a few
liberal, cosmopolitan parts of society (whether left-liberal or right-
liberal), many Swiss just don't want more than a handful of immigrants, and
like maintaining a closed, stable Nation of people whose great-great-
grandfathers were Swiss. This even (perhaps especially) extends to negative
sentiment directed at German immigrants by Swiss-Germans.

One paper I ran across (via Wikipedia) suggested that negative sentiment
directed at Germans might be due to their _similarity_ : if the objective
cultural difference between two groups is not huge, then an influx of
immigration is particularly threatening, because it might erase the fragile
boundary: <http://img2.tapuz.co.il/CommunaFiles/44893554.pdf>

------
RivieraKid
Totally understandable decesion, don't see anything wrong about it.

~~~
a_c_s
You mean except for the part where they previously agreed not to do so?

~~~
jvm
When they made the agreement, they included a "safeguard clause" indicating
that the deal would be off if immigration exceeded a particular amount. It
has.

I'm completely against the policy, but it's not a violation of the agreement.

~~~
paradoja
> I'm completely against the policy, but it's not a violation of the
> agreement.

That is not clear. EU officials say that it is indeed a violation of the
agreement: “The measures adopted today by the Swiss government are contrary to
the agreement on the Free Movement of Persons, since they differentiate
between groups of member states.”

[http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9f70bc54-ad0c-11e2-9454-00144feabd...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9f70bc54-ad0c-11e2-9454-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2RQRJECSf)

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
If it is not clear whether it's a violation of the agreement, then it is
dishonest to accuse them of being in violation of the agreement.

~~~
paradoja
It is not.

One side may have no doubt it is a violation of the agreement, and say so.
There is no problem with that.

~~~
Kudzu_Bob
If I don't know whether my laptop has been stolen or simply forgotten in some
coffee house but I accuse you of taking it because I don't like your politics,
that makes me a liar.

~~~
paradoja
Yes.

And that has no relation with what we are talking about. If the Swiss
government doesn't follow the written rules of the agreement, it is in
violation of them. Saying so doesn't make one a lier.

------
return0
I wonder if they will extend this to the immigration of capital.

