

France Bashing Is So 2012 (Here Is Why) - cyrillevincey
http://insights.qunb.com/france-bashing-is-so-2012

======
Yoric
Oh, also, don't forget that we have a few "minor" companies represented in
France, such as Mozilla, Microsoft R&D, Apple R&D, Google R&D, IBM R&D, Intel
R&D, etc. all of them involved in some extent in the French startup ecosystem.

For instance, Mozilla (where I work) hosts events with startups, has its own
accelerator for startups, and provides some mentorship. Of course, that's for
startups that aim for open source, open web, open government, privacy, or any
other form of greater good.

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patrickaljord
This sounds better than French government propaganda. Don't listen to this
guy. France has great food, wine and architecture, I know that, I live here in
Paris. But it's a hell hole if you're an entrepreneur, taxes are killing
(+60%), investors get most of their money taken away, the State is bordering
on insanity, social security doesn't reimburse much anymore and yet you're
forced to pay for it+a private insurance and firing people is extremely
costly, you can end up paying someone for years even though he's not doing
anything anymore. And you can get sued for firing someone and the judge will
side by default with the employee, most judges here are communists/far left to
begin with or at least socialist if you wish.

Also, here, 99% of people are statists. Every political debates revolve around
this: "how can the state fix our problems and pay our bills". Depressing.
Recently, many entrepreneurs decided to go on strike and stop paying some of
their unfair taxes, Atlas Shrugged is literally happening here, all the
richest have left, many entrepreneurs have left, many who stayed are going on
strike. You know something is wrong with a country when Ayn Rand's exaggerated
prophecies are becoming a reality. Anyway. Just my two cents.

Edit: Dear fellow French. Please argue, don't just downvote and call BS.

~~~
p4bl0
You want me to argue?

> taxes are killing (+60%)

Taxes are NOT 60% for business, it's 30%. It can go up to a bit less than 60%
on personal incomes. That is if your are extremely rich. In 2012, the average
taxation was less than 6%. The 45% slice of imposition (which to date is the
highest) applies only if you earn more than 500,000€, and only on your incomes
_above_ that threshold.

For instance if you earn 1,000,000€ you will pay 458,140.05€ of taxes on
incomes, which is a bit less than 46%. To get up to 60% of taxes on incomes,
you have to be immensely rich, you won't be suffering from your contribution
to society.

> the State is bordering on insanity

Your personal (and imho, stupid as fuck, even if I don't particularly like our
government) opinion.

> social security doesn't reimburse much anymore and yet you're forced to pay
> for it+a private insurance

This couldn't be more wrong. I don't have a private insurance (nor what we
call a "mutuelle" to be clear), I only have the minimum public social
security. I went to the hospital twice last month, and both time got a small
surgical act in addition to the consultation of a doctor (she's one of the
best in her domain, worldwide, fwiw). This cost me 21€ the first time and 7.5€
the second time. Most of the medicine I had to take after that were reimbursed
almost entirely. _This is not a special case_ , this is the rule.

> firing people is extremely costly, you can end up paying someone for years
> even though he's not doing anything anymore.

Other people responded to that one. But I may add that if you end up paying
people for years after they stop working for you it's either for a non-
competition contract or that you fired people without being able to give a
reason. Too bad for you, workers are a bit protected in this country.

> you can get sued for firing someone and the judge will side by default with
> the employee, most judges here are communists/far left to begin with or at
> least socialist if you wish.

Let me laugh a bit I'll come back when I'm done.

Your next paragraph is pure speculations and is plain wrong. No the richest
didn't leave. A few cunt like Depardieu left and made a lot of noise about it,
but that's all. But if _you_ want to leave, feel free, nobody will stop you.

~~~
patrickaljord
> Taxes are NOT 60% for business, it's 30%.

Oh come on, you know that when you sum up all taxes and regulations, it costs
way more than 30%, it's more like 50% minimum.

> It can go up to a bit less than 60% on personal incomes.That is if your are
> extremely rich

How naive, when you make 2000€, you cost 4000€ to your employer. That means
your real salary is 4000 € minus 50% that goes through taxes that your
employer pays but really he's passing the costs on you unless you think he's
paying you a free meal. So that's 50% already for everyone, then you have to
subtract 20 to 30% on the 2000€. So yeah, my 60% is pretty accurate.

> Your personal (and imho, stupid as fuck, even if I don't particularly like
> our government) opinion.

First of all, no need to be so rude. Second, it is being insane. Their answer
to everything is more tax even though this is killing the economy. It's clear
now that France is governed by a theocracy, a new serfdom where God is Public
spending, the clergé is the public workers that pay no taxes and get to retire
early with big salaries and lots of privileges and the Tiers état is the
people paying for the rest. [http://leblogalupus.com/2013/10/09/charles-gave-
la-france-es...](http://leblogalupus.com/2013/10/09/charles-gave-la-france-
est-gouvernee-par-une-theocratie/)

> a doctor (she's one of the best in her domain, worldwide, fwiw). This cost
> me 21€ the first time and 7.5€

So one of the best doctors is paid 21€ and 7.5€? Wow, that's less than
flipping burgers at your local burger joint. Do you do consulting at this
price too? Anyway, this is an anecdotical evidence of yours. It's a fact that
Securité social does not reimburse much any more and yet you still have to pay
for it and get a private insurance on the side. This is well documented
[http://www.securite-sociale.info/](http://www.securite-sociale.info/)

> it's either for a non-competition contract or that you fired people without
> being able to give a reason. Too bad for you, workers are a bit protected in
> this country.

See, this is where we disagree. It is my company, my private property. I
should be able to do as I please with it as long as don't mess with other's
freedom, this is a constitutional right in the declaration of human rights,
private property is sacred. I should be allowed to employ and stop employing
whoever I want, whenever I want. This is why there is so much unemployment in
France, it's so hard and costly to fire people that we'd rather not employ
them. You think you're helping workers but you're not, you're creating more
unemployment. Countries like Switzerland that don't have such "protection"
have much less unemployment.

> A few cunt like Depardieu left

Are you serious? The richest man in France has left and many of the top
richest famillies have left: LVMH, Lacoste, Peugeot etc. Not only that but
most of our artists and sports men have left. Anyone who creates lots of
wealth has left the country. Don't you see a wrong pattern here? How blind can
one be. [http://www.latribune.fr/vos-
finances/impots/fiscalite/201112...](http://www.latribune.fr/vos-
finances/impots/fiscalite/20111201trib000668201/decouvrez-la-liste-
des-44-plus-grandes-fortunes-francaises-exilees-en-suisse.html)

~~~
abolibibelot
>God is Public spending, the clergé is the public workers that pay no taxes
and get to retire early with big salaries and lots of privileges and the Tiers
état is the people paying for the rest.
[http://leblogalupus.com/2013/10/09/charles-gave-la-france-
es...](http://leblogalupus.com/2013/10/09/charles-gave-la-france-est-
gouvernee-par-une-theocratie/)

Yep, because as any Friedman loving economist (like Charles Gave you're
linking to) will tell you, there's only one God and it's the Market.

>So one of the best doctors is paid 21€ and 7.5€?

No, you see, that's the thing about Social Security (you seem to know so much
about), that's what the OP paid, the rest was paid to the doctor by the Social
Security. This is well documented in [http://www.securite-
sociale.info/](http://www.securite-sociale.info/) you should take a look.

>See, this is where we disagree. It is my company, my private property. I
should be able to do as I please with it as long as don't mess with other's
freedom, this is a constitutional right in the declaration of human rights,
private property is sacred.

"There is just one God, and it's private property". Where did you find
"private property is sacred" anywhere in the declaration of human rights?

>Are you serious? The richest man in France has left and many of the top
richest famillies have left: LVMH, Lacoste, Peugeot etc.

Yep and Apple, Google et al. don't pay any corporate taxes. Surely, the
problem is the taxes.

~~~
patrickaljord
> Yep, because as any Friedman loving economist (like Charles Gave you're
> linking to) will tell you, there's only one God and it's the Market.

Oh but I love Friedman too. And what's wrong with the market? What else is the
market but people freely exchanging goods and services voluntary? What is more
peaceful than two people making a voluntary deal? What are we entrepreneurs
doing if not that? See Friedman's famous pencil example
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlTRau_XgGs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlTRau_XgGs)

> No, you see, that's the thing about Social Security (you seem to know so
> much about), that's what the OP paid, the rest was paid to the doctor by the
> Social Security.

That's my point, 21€ and 7.5€ is what you see, what you don't see is the 60%
income tax we all pay to get this. Not really that cheap anymore.

> Where did you find "private property is sacred" anywhere in the declaration
> of human rights?

omg, really? You haven't even read the first line of the declaration? Here you
go:

"dans une Déclaration solennelle, les droits naturels, inaliénables et
__sacrés __de l’homme "

Article 2:

"Ces droits sont la liberté, la propriété, la sûreté et la résistance à
l’oppression."

Well, that was easy :) [http://www.assemblee-
nationale.fr/histoire/dudh/1789.asp](http://www.assemblee-
nationale.fr/histoire/dudh/1789.asp)

> Surely, the problem is the taxes.

Good, now you get it.

Finally here's another good one from the 1789 act:

"Un peuple libre n'acquitte que des contributions, un peuple esclave paie des
impôts »". A free people pays bills (ie from private companies), a people of
slaves pays taxes. Yep, that's from our founding fathers. Milton Friedman and
Ayn Rand could not have put it better. Have a nice day citoyen :)

~~~
fivethree
Friedman is a hack ignored by anyone with half a brain. Same with Ayn Rand.
They say incredible things, if you don't spend much time thinking about it.

~~~
patrickaljord
Anonymous coward fivethree says Nobel price Friedman and best sellers Ayn Rand
are hacks. Hey people, pay attention, we should ignore these two starting
today!

~~~
fivethree
Also the entirety of respected academics in economic, philosophy, and
literature. Those guys probably aren't important.

------
flexie
"Ok, Paris will never compete with San Francisco"

Not so sure about that. Never is a very long word. I bet Paris can compete
with San Francisco on tech before San Francisco can compete on charm.

~~~
cyrillevincey
You are soooo damn right.

------
rxdazn
> Plus, French engineers compensations are half US engineers compensations in
> average.

Hmm... yeah, how is that a good thing? There's also that common thing where
startups hire interns and ask for the knowledge of a very specific stack, 10
different skills, bachelor's degree level and offer 600e/month (min. is
436.05e which makes it 2.875e per hour -- if your internship is longer than
two months, 0 if shorter) because "oh yeah, you're an intern, you're here to
learn. plus we're a start up, we don't have any money".

I love working at startups but sometimes their offers are a fucking joke
around here.

I know internships shouldn't be done for the money, I've already done some
436.05e/month ones, don't worry about that.

~~~
Yoric
As a former startup CTO, I confirm that "we" (== the start-ups) love interns,
for all the bad reasons.

They are dirt cheap, they often don't have enough experience to say no when
they are handed the crap tasks, and if we decide to hire them, we can offer
very low wages, because they often don't take the time to check out the
competition. Oh, and they can be blamed for just about anything wrong that
happens, too.

Sorry about this, interns, that wasn't my call.

~~~
userulluipeste
I remember my days as intern. So true! It's a dirty game, but it is played
dirty (most of the time) by both sides. The (presumably) naïve intern only
stays until he wakes up, then having now the luxury of time on his side and
the leverage of already being employed, just bids himself to better offers.

------
skrebbel
I really like the point this story is making, but I've really not seen much
"France Bashing" going around lately. Did I miss anything?

Additionally, the points made seem to apply to a large extent to many European
countries. Which is a good thing, of course.

~~~
cyrillevincey
Thanks. The #pigeons did hurt a lot last year, and after a few months in SF
and in Boston I've been amazed how many beliefs foreign observers have about
the French startup ecosystem. You're probably right about France (vs) Europe.
Would be happy to have some comments from European folks here.

~~~
skrebbel
Some links about that "pigeons" thing would strenghten your article. I had to
google the term to understand what it meant - a national political pressure
campaign about taxes that backfired in terms of reputation, am I right?

When reading the article I just skipped that particular point thinking it was
some kind of inside joke I didn't get.

One thing I'd like to know about Paris is how non-French-speaking-friendly the
startup scene there is. I'm Dutch, my French goes as far as "je m'appelle une
baguette". I'm weary of moving to Paris simply because of my experience that
the French are, well, less comfortable communicating in English than the
inhabitants of some other countries around here, even among the higher
educated.

~~~
cyrillevincey
You're right, thanks @skrebbel. "Pigeons" were indeed a group of entrepreneurs
fighting a new tax project of the newly elected socialist government in 2012.
If they were right or wrong, I won't debate, I'm just thinking they did a
terrible job in downgrading the image of France abroad. Non-French-speaking
entrepreneurs are welcome in Paris, I can help putting you in touch with good
accelerators that can host you and provide guidance. The startup scene in
France today is totally fluent in English, you should feel comfortale.

------
lttlrck
What's 2012 got to do with anything? It's a national pastime in some corners
of the world...

------
linux_devil
Way to go !

------
viggity
$5000 to incorporate in the US? I paid $80. Also, they're talking about how it
is "easy" to fire people... if you give them 3 months of notice? Craziness.

