
1Password – Standalone licenses vs. new subscription service - deevus
https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/67588/standalone-licenses-vs-new-subscription-service
======
Eva_Schweber
Full disclosure, I work for AgileBits, the folks that make 1Password.

I hear and appreciate your collective concerns that we are getting rid of the
standalone license option. However, I'd like to assure you that not only are
there no plans to get rid of it, we are continuing to develop the standalone
version. We know that we have a critical mass of customers who appreciate the
ability to store their password data outside of the cloud. And given that we
are entirely customer funded, those are customers that we cannot and are not
ignoring.

Our subscriptions options remain new and we are still figuring a lot of things
out. One of the ongoing issues has been customer confusion between licenses
and account. That is why we have made it a bit harder to locate information
about licenses on our site. Nothing insidious, just an attempt to make it
easier for the majority of our customers to locate what they are looking for
without confusing them.

If anyone has any additional questions or concerns, I would encourage you to
contact us directly at support+social@agilebits.com.

Best, Eva

~~~
dilap
Hey, I'm a happy 1pass customer, but give me fucking break.

Maybe 1 visitor in 100, visiting your website, would even realize that there's
a fixed-price option still available. It's buried way at the bottom of the
pricing page, hidden inside the FAQ.

The link itself just leads to a purchase page, with absolutely no attempt to
explain or lay out the differences between the subscription and fixed price
option.

To claim this about "preventing customer confusion" seems to me pretty absurd.
Be more honest, please.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
I think the explanation is reasonable even if you disagree with it, and the
world isn't a polarity between "company behaviors I agree with" and "shady,
insidious, underhanded behavior by a company that deserves basically openly
harassing someone who volunteered to talk about it and questioning their
integrity and honesty in a comment." People are too quick to accuse someone of
dishonesty these days and I don't think most realize how serious of a charge
that actually is. If you said something like that to me in person we'd have a
serious problem because at the end if the day, integrity is all anybody really
has.

Anyway, completely happy subscription user here and it's actually the reason I
went back to 1Password. I used to do the standalone Dropbox thing too and the
subscription is just night and day better, and given the value I extract from
this product I'm not going to freak out over half a coffee a month nor accuse
AgileBits, a company I've tremendously respected for many years with their
attention to support and customer experience, with suddenly being the axis of
evil as you've done here.

I'll drive this point home: I actually got the standalone licenses cheaper
through work way back when and _still_ happily entered into paying for a
subscription from my own funds.

I think the people extremely upset about this, including you, are the ones
being disingenuous and forgetting how reasonable AgileBits is in everything
else they do. I'm not even a fan, it's just been apparent to me for a long
time.

Again, this is $36 per year. How much value do you extract from the stuff you
store in 1Password? Is it really that unreasonable for a company to move
toward more recurring revenue? It's a really weird opinion here, of all
places, the "let's build a hypergrowth SaaS" home of the Web.

~~~
dilap
I'm not accusing them of being evil, or even commenting on the change to a
subscription model -- I'm just calling out what to me looks like transparent
dishonesty.

------
Esau
I wasn't aware of this change, so I read the entire linked support thread.
Although the company responders did some nice verbal gymnastics, I think it is
pretty obvious that this is just mainly just a money grab on behalf of
AgileBits.

Additionally, several comments implied that AgileBits was hiding the option to
buy a standalone license, so I looked at their pricing page[1]. I have to say
I agree; it is not listed as an option alongside the two subscription options.
In fact, you have to scroll all the way down, to the end of the FAQ, to even
find a mention of it.

[1][https://1password.com/sign-up/](https://1password.com/sign-up/)

I'll concede that a subscription option might be better for some users,
especially those using it on multiple devices, but I think AgileBits should
not be hiding the regular license option.

~~~
maccard
As a multi device user, it's definitely better for me. I have 2x windows
desktop, a Mac laptop, an iPhone and an android tablet. With the current non-
subscriptioin pricing model, it will cost me 65 dollars for the two desktop
apps, plus another 20 dollars for the android + ios apps - that's a fairly
hefty upfront fee. 3 dollars a month (after 6 months) is far more appealing
really.

As an aside, it's extremely difficult to find out how much the android pro
feature currently costs, I ended up finding it in the comments sectino of one
of their posts rather than the google play store or on their website.

~~~
trowawee
But the idea behind a password manager is that you effectively use it in
perpetuity. I bought 1Password in 2013 for $50, and the iPhone app for $9. I
use it several times a day, and don't see that changing at any point in the
near future. At $3/month, I would have be approaching twice what I actually
paid, with no prospect for being done with that payment. I get why AgileBits
is going to a subscription model; I'm sure they would prefer that I had paid
them $96 by now, rather than $59, and that I would go on to pay them another
$36 per year every year forever. But the idea that you, as a consumer, are
looking at this and seeing an appealing deal suggests you haven't really
thought it through very well.

~~~
nodamage
Out of curiosity, when new versions of iOS and macOS get released over the
next several years, are you willing to pay for the upgrades the developers
will have to inevitably release in order to maintain compatibility with the
OS?

Or do you expect your initial $59 purchase in 2013 to truly last in
perpetuity?

------
danieldk
I have been a paying customer since 2010 or so. We have done a trial of
1Password Family, but I just don't see the advantage for customers. You just
get locked into someone's data silo and you cannot purchase upgrades anymore
at your own leisure. I agree with those who say that it primarily benefits
AgileBits.

Sadly, my experience with other products that switched to a subscription model
has been that at some point all kinds strategies ('incentives') are applied to
get people to move to subscription licensing. So, I am carefully watching the
situation as it unfolds.

------
ar0
I know this question comes up time and time again, but as it seems a good fit
here: What are the best password managers out there that do _not_ force you to
use their "cloud" for syncing between devices and are available on all major
platforms?

I am a very happy 1Password user up to now because of it's local wifi sync
feature, but I think with this announcement the writing is on the wall: The
standalone sync will go away sometime down the road to "improve" everyone's
user experience by moving them to the cloud sync and the accompanying
subscription revenue. So it might be a good time to explore (open source?)
alternatives...

~~~
bad_user
I'm a former 1Password user and switched to KeePass ports.

On the desktop I use KeeWeb [1], which works great on both Linux and OS X, and
I assume on Windows as well, on Android I use Keepass2Android [2], which is
actually better than 1Password on Android btw, and on iOS I use MiniKeePass
[3]. This last one is a little weak, but it works. All 3 are open source btw.

And seriously, it works better than I expected for $0.

What made me switch is their move to a subscription model. They pretend that
the old licensing model will still be around, but if you pay attention, that's
not true. The first thing they did for example is to get rid of the Mac-only
license, in order to make subscriptions seem more competitive. And they also
stopped developing standalone features. I'm a Linux user as well, I would have
liked a Linux port. And the only sync option is Dropbox, but Google Drive or
other options would have been nice.

On cloud syncing, I do syncing by means of Dropbox, but my Dropbox directory
isn't a big target for hackers and at the very least I know how KeePass and
GPG work, what ends up in my Dropbox being just an encrypted file. I don't
know how LastPass and 1Password work, even though they claim the encryption is
only client side, and frankly I don't care anymore.

[1] [https://keeweb.info/](https://keeweb.info/)

[2]
[http://keepass2android.codeplex.com/](http://keepass2android.codeplex.com/)

[3] [https://minikeepass.github.io/](https://minikeepass.github.io/)

~~~
aioprisan
KeePass comes with built-in security flaws, so that's the main plus over
1Password!
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9727297](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9727297)

~~~
scrollaway
KeePass is not the same as KeepassX, or KeepassDroid, or any of the other
clients.

------
thesimon
Their pricing fell a bit decisive as well:

$2.99

and a bit smaller: "per month billed annually"

I know breaking it down to the month is popular, but it makes 0 sense for me
if the only way I can pay is anually and there is no way to pay monthly (even
for a premium).

Sorry, but I'm now over to Dashlane (clear $39.99/year)

~~~
tbrock
Thanks for recommending this. We currently use 1password for our business but
and while the Mac client is ok the teams website leaves a lot to be desired
and no Linux client at this point is embarrassing. It's expensive too! You get
the feeling that agile bits is ok at developing Mac and Windows software but
basically has no idea about developing software for the web.

~~~
lcarlson
Try [http://genpass.supergenpass.com](http://genpass.supergenpass.com) ! :)

~~~
lcarlson
Woops! I actually meant to post super gen pass but at least the website I
referenced points directly to super gen pass so it wouldn't be too hard to
figure out I would hope!

------
somenomadicguy
I've hit subscription model overload at this point. I've long-since stopped
using most of the software and services in my life which are subscription
based. I'm likely to just go back to an encrypted text file, and cutting &
pasting passwords.

You are not netflix, and I am not your personal ATM.

~~~
saddestcatever
Seriously. I get that's it's good for business - but it's like mobile apps. I
only have the capacity for a few, and all others are past saturation point.

------
gkanai
I am a long time 1Password customer and have recommended the software to
family and friends. This new subscription model was confusing when it launched
and I am now more uncomfortable with the company's explanations and
backtracking.

There are other options for password management out there. If Agilebits are
not super transparent about everything, users will leave for the competition.
I am much less comfortable with Agilebits than I was pre-subscription model.

The standalone version should be promoted equally on the website, not as a
small link in the FAQ.

I stopped buying Adobe products when they went to subscription as well.

------
morgante
Have they actually removed the standalone option?

I'm perfectly happy with it (using iCloud sync) and will continue to be a
happy 1Password user unless/until they force me to subscribe.

~~~
Esau
It's a bit hidden but you can still license a standalone version.

------
plg
I've been waiting for a way to access my 1Password data on the web, e.g. from
a Linux machine (no 1Password Linux client exists) so I'll gladly pay the
subscription fee now that this exists.

Also the quality of the software (in terms of user experience)---both on the
desktop and on iOS---is fantastic. Also the ability to contact a human for
support is excellent. In general I like to support high quality software using
$.

I am however nervous about the idea of storing all my passwords on someone
else's server. If there ever were a security breach, imagine the consequence.

Instead of "change your password, we've been hacked" it would be "change ALL
100 of your passwords, we've been hacked". Ugh.

~~~
eropple
_> I am however nervous about the idea of storing all my passwords on someone
else's server. If there ever were a security breach, imagine the consequence._

This doesn't necessarily follow, depending on the security model of the
software you're using. If encryption/decryption is handled on the client, then
a breach yields encrypted data rather than anything of use. (You can then
attack the encryption on that data, sure, but that's a tall order to do
wholesale.)

Also, 1pass is (was? I haven't used it for a few years) handy for command-line
access and it runs on Linux.

[https://github.com/georgebrock/1pass](https://github.com/georgebrock/1pass)

------
rcarmo
I've been watching this carefully, because the subscription model has zero
benefits for me and both Chrome and Safari have started to implement basic
password management solutions that already do cloud syncing. They're weak and
obscure, but usable, and 1Password's benefit is that it's smarter and
prettier.

However, I'm not keen on cloud sync that I don't control or that I can't audit
somehow. So no AgileBits for me in the new model, ever, and if they drop the
Dropbox sync option, I'll move everything to KeePass.

Shame, though, the UX and integration with other apps in iOS is pretty nifty.

But to be honest, I suspect AgileBits' market share to shrink significantly
over time as browser and OS-based password managers become better.

------
shostack
I wonder if they would have met this resistance if they had started as SaaS
from day one. I mean, I get the benefit to them of recurring revenue, but from
a customer standpoint this is right up there with Adobe trying to force
everyone to creative cloud (albeit handled much better imho). People viewed it
as something you pay once for, and not something that warrants paying in
perpetuity. Customers fully realize that increasing LTV for AgileBits means a
massive price hike for them over multiple years if you do the May on
percentage increase.

~~~
newscracker
> I wonder if they would have met this resistance if they had started as SaaS
> from day one.

Day one for Agile Bits was in 2006, and a SaaS model just wouldn't have worked
at that time. People would've just laughed at "renting software for a personal
computer" (Mac OS X).

------
zodiakzz
The idea of using a cloud-based password manager has always sounded rather
bizarre to me. For low priority sites I just use the PasswordMaker browser
extension, and the KeePass app for the important ones.

~~~
rocqua
The data format of 1password is open. There open source packages out there
that can read and manipulate the vault which confirms this specification is
true.

The format has attracted quit a bit of scrutiny, and no-one has found a
weakness. If the underlying crypto'd be broken your passwords are probably
useless anyway.

------
rietta
Does AgileBits being a Canadian company mean that the NSA and/or the FBI has
full legal authority to intercept communications with the service without
regard to the locality of the servers? Presumably they would be limited in
what could be done on scale based upon the use of encryption for transport and
of the vault itself, but does this change the threat profile vs Dropbox sync
with respect to legal process?

------
Learn2win
$600 for 10 years is a bit much for a password manager. I think may switch to
readysignon ([https://www.readysignon.com/](https://www.readysignon.com/))
which is compatible with keepass.

~~~
jasonlotito
How do you get $600?

$3/month is $36/year. At 10 years, that's $360.

Where do you get another $240 for the standalone product?

~~~
falcolas
Multi-user option, at $5 a month.

------
roflchoppa
Is this why texting people passwords from one password does not work anymore?
This shits whack, that was the one reason why I tried to get other people to
use app, we could share passwords.

Over this app, looking for something else.

~~~
wfleming
I recently switched to Enpass[1] and am reasonably happy with it: it might be
an alternative for you to consider as well.

It's very much a 1Password ripoff, which I mean as a compliment: the UI will
be familiar to you. It's not nearly as polished as 1Password, but there don't
seem to be many native password managers that are. Their desktop clients are
free, and their mobile clients are flat licenses (actually free downloads with
limited functionality as a demo, and in-app purchase to unlock, but whatever).

Sync options are actually a bit better than 1Password I think: the usual
suspects like Dropbox are there, but you can also sync over your own webdav
server if you want to.

I switched because I wanted something that had a decent Linux client. If
1Password is going the way of subscription pricing, it seems like I made my
switch none too soon.

[1]: [https://www.enpass.io/](https://www.enpass.io/)

~~~
roflchoppa
Thanks dude I'll look it over. Wonder if there's any migration tool....

------
DavideNL
oh well.. there's so many apps that do this nowadays, i got used to it by now.
As soon as the 'non-subscription-model' of the app is no longer actively
developed i just dump it and switch to another app. There are plenty
alternatives anyway.

------
newscracker
In the recent past it definitely has seemed like AgileBits is struggling for
revenue or looking at new and steady streams of revenue, which is where the
subscriptions fit in.

Although AgileBits has had responsive customer service (not always necessarily
the same as useful or good customer service), it has made at least one
prominent mistake that it had to backtrack out of after a long time. One was
putting 1Password on the Mac App Store (MAS) and saying it would be "MAS only"
(like Pixelmator) and refusing to provide a separate AgileBits store option,
with the justification that MAS simplifies things (it probably did remove some
overheads) and that it didn't want to maintain its own store, payment
processing, etc. What was hypocritical of AgileBits was that it still had to
maintain its store, payment processing, etc., for its Windows version of
1Password. Many customers complained, and complained quite a lot, on their
forums, but AgileBits' attitude and response were very poor and seemed
downright obstinate. After a long time, AgileBits realized that MAS wasn't
that great (not sure of the reasons) and brought 1Password (Mac) to its store
while retaining MAS as an option.

The current push of a subscription model, while stating that standalone
licenses continue to remain (although obscured on the site "to avoid
confusion"), seems to be a repeat of history. The outcome is unknown at this
point in time. Maybe a lot of people will find the subscription easier to use
and force AgileBits to shutdown the standalone licensing model. Most people
who belong to the consumer segment (those who do not make money with the
software they use, like in the case of Adobe products) do not prefer
subscriptions and like the flexibility of "owning software" (license) and
having the freedom to choose when they would upgrade and at what price (in
many cases waiting for some special discount sale).

Hopefully, AgileBits will remove the obscurity of the standalone licenses and
provide it prominently, because the current scheme just doesn't fit with what
AgileBits as a company always aims to be. It's too cheap of AgileBits to do
something like this. Also hopefully, the subscription models will continue to
be optional (with standalone licenses available at reasonable prices) and
perhaps segmented differently (with lower price points?) to attract customers
for specific features that are of value to them.

It would also be better for AgileBits to get into making other kinds of
software applications instead of trying to squeeze more and more out of
password management and shared password systems.

I'm an occasional 1Password user on Windows, but I switched most of my
passwords to the built-in browser based password management (since I mostly
use only one or two browsers). For some other purposes, I use KeePass and
KeeWeb (though 1Password's browser extensions, where they work, are quite
convenient). I personally don't see a lot of value in getting 1Password
anymore, and as for a subscription, that would be inappropriately wasteful.

------
simbalion
Why pay for a password manager when keepass is free, more secure, and offers
better features than all of the alternatives?

[http://keepass.info](http://keepass.info)

~~~
aioprisan
Because free software that doesn't offer the feature set and platforms out of
the box actually costs me a lot of money in convenience and features that I
use? YMMV.

