
Recent generations are taking longer to "grow up" - jparise
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/us/13generations.html
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benwr
As an eighteen-year-old I feel secure in pointing out that expectations of my
level of maturity are far lower than they were for my father, let alone my
grandfather. I believe that people generally rise to meet social expectations.
Whether the drop in maturity level is due to the drop in expectations or the
other way around, I don't know.

~~~
sliverstorm
It seems to me like developing maturity is in part tied to the responsibility
you're given. Nowadays kids aren't held responsible for much, even after they
turn 18, so maturity comes later and slower.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
My mother's saying was that "A boy becomes a man when a man is required."

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Maro
I think one of the significant reasons in emancipation. Due to the strong
coupling between man and woman this affects both genders. Young females today
(20-30) are fairly confused about what they want to do in life, and when to do
it. Get married? Have children? Cook? Be pretty? Screw around? Do a Phd? Go to
work? Have a career? This also confuses guys: what can you expect from your
girlfriend, and when? And what do women expect from us?

~~~
techiferous
Isn't it great not to have a life script handed to you? :)

~~~
photon_off
Actually, not really. Sometimes I like people to make suggestions for me.

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gte910h
Have you looked at what income you'd get today if you had only the educational
attainment of the average man of the last generation at 18 or 20? Or the one
before it?

You can't live the same level of life without more schooling now.

It's an educational arms race. Graduate degrees and unpaid internships and
long stint in "entry level" jobs that last for much of a decade, etc.

~~~
fleitz
Bs. I do quite fine with high school. The biggest advantage those growing up
in today's environment have going for them is that everyone else their age is
lazy. You can do far better today with the same work ethic of the previous
generation.

It is an educational arms race, however in any arms race there is plenty of
money to be made selling arms.

Fuck unpaid internships, get a job at a small company where results are
noticed. When you see something going wrong step in and fix it. I started my
career in programming putting together a simple scheduling app in php. I
didn't ask permission I went and coded it at home and brought it in one day
and demo'd it to my supervisor. After that they didn't want me doing tech
support any more and wanted me solving all sorts of other problems instead.

Whining about education is a crutch used by those who don't want to fill out
resumes or otherwise work. Generally those people feel that now that they have
an education all they need to do is sit back and wait for a cushy job to knock
on their door.

Before one gets a degree they should type that degrees name into a craigslist
job board and see what comes up, if nothing comes up then one should not
expect to get a job as a result.

I wanted to add one more piece of advice, when you decide what you want to do,
find the industry where that job is the "profit center" and also in the
"profit center" pick the job no one else wants to do. Yeah, sometimes it
actually really sucks, but usually there is just a little learning curve, and
then it's easy. Never tell them this. You're now indispensable, likable, and
if you saved your money properly you also have negotiating power. This means
that you're likely to be offered a raise, if you ask for one accepted, and if
they decline have the means to make them give it to you or find something
else, and surprisingly at the other company no one wants to do X either.

Pro Tip: If you've just bought something major on credit (car, house, etc),
your boss probably knows about it, this means that you will NOT get your raise
for the thing you bought that you can't afford. This is also why if you talk
about cars or houses with your boss he may convince you to buy something you
don't need. The people who get raises are those who don't need it.

~~~
patio11
_Fuck unpaid internships_

I disagree with the language but heartily approve of the message. Do. Not.
Work. For. Free. For-profit corporations can pay you wages -- that is what
they are for.

This goes triply for everyone here, since most of you have skills that the
market actually needs rather than the collection of non-skill represented by
your typical coffee gopher trying to break into publishing. However, people
expect engineers to be congenitally incapable of negotiation and to work for
free because they love their jobs, and they'll tell you that this is not
merely permissable but morally praiseworthy and a good thing for your career.
People who tell you this _are lying to you_. Do not listen to them, even if
they are folks you otherwise respect, even if they are telling you that their
OSS-using corporations are more morally deserving than e.g. Microsoft or
Oracle.

~~~
jackowayed
> _For-profit corporations can pay you wages -- that is what they are for._

The worst example I've seen related to this is my friend (business major) who
almost didn't take a _paid_ internship because she had already agreed to do an
unpaid internship and would feel bad abandoning the company. I had to explain
to her how bad of an idea it is to be loyal to a company that doesn't even
value her enough to pay her.

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alttab
Unfortunately I have to agree with this article.

I am in this targeted demographic, and I would have to say - categorically -
that most of my friends have failed to grow up.

Why would I use such a harsh word like _failed_? Its not the world, economic,
and social differences from the age of our parents that causes them to "fail"
in my book for growing up - it is purely based on the fact that they think
they have. It is the generational arrogance.

Almost every single one of my friends that I know from high school or college
still live with their parents, have been working in the same job since they
were 18, spend their money on _depreciating assets_ , and think they have
somehow made it just because they have a 4 year degree that their parents paid
for.

Getting a steady paycheck and blowing it on crap, not paying your own rent,
health insurance, or groceries does not mean you are an adult. Throw in a
healthy dose of entitlement vaporware accomplishment and you get a lot of
strong-headed 20-somethings that couldn't recognize good advice if it was
painted on their heads with neon lights.

There is nothing about getting a degree and holding down a job where you
manage not to get fired for 18 months means that you are an adult. Try
"thinking outside of yourself," "thinking about the future," "managing your
time, money, and emotions wisely," and almost invariably "stop thinking you
have everything figured out when you're 23." Blink 182 was right - no one
likes you.

I was lucky enough to have my mom pay for all of my college, but I have since
moved across the country, have been completely supporting myself financially
for 2 years, and I'm closing on a house next month. I concentrate to realize I
don't know everything (in fact I train myself to say I know almost nothing
considering my age and life experience). If I can do it - I think the rest of
my generation can. But they are privileged, lazy, entitled, and enabled by
their parents. Its America's attitude that has caused this, not what has
"happened" to America or our socio-political situation as a whole.

I refuse to accept external attribution as a reason for immaturity and a
failure to grow up.

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marcusbooster
If we're living longer, so much so that they're considering pushing back
social security eligibility; then doesn't it make sense to prolong what most
people consider the better part of their lives?

What about all the aging boomers in their 50-60's who still think they're 29.
Even the term "cougar" has become popular enough to make mainstream culture.

~~~
tocomment
They're considering pushing back social security?! Have they set a date?
Hopefully people in their 30s would be grandfathers into the existing age?

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tomjen3
First, respect for the submitter for putting quotes in the headline, as
neither marriage nor children is a good sign of maturity. A teenage mother who
wed her babyfather isn't mature, but she would count as a an adult in this
case, whereas an atheistic phd student wouldn't.

Does anybody have an actual and useful meassure of maturity?

~~~
varjag
> Does anybody have an actual and useful meassure of maturity?

You pay your bills and solve your problems yourself?

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johnwatson11218
When I read articles like this I always think about the concept of neoteny.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny> I read about this in The Naked Ape
years ago. The idea is that neoteny can be a mechanism by which physical
evolution takes place. I have wondered if it could also apply to societies and
cultures. The only other place I head of neoteny was in a talk I downloaded
where Bruce Eckel and another programmer were bashing the concept saying that
it led managers to treat experienced developers like junior coders and demand
more and more work for fixed pay.

~~~
phaedrus
Richard Dawkins, in (iirc) The Selfish Gene proposed that if we really wanted
to increase the average lifespan of humans beyond what it is now (we're on the
high side of longevity compared to even other primates) then the way to do it
would be if people were only allowed have children progressively later in life
with each generation. It may be that we're doing this on our own naturally. I
myself am the product of several generations who had children late in life,
and it does seem like people in my family age more slowly.

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timtadh
I would also have to agree with this article. I am 22 and will be getting
married in 6 months, however none of my friends from college or high school
are making similar choices. While our family and friends have been supportive
our decision to "marry early" as it were, others have been confused.
Particularly late 20's and early 30's co-workers are put off by the idea,
recommending not getting married until much later. I will note most of these
individuals have never married, and seem to avoid long term relationships. So
yes, this generation does seem to be avoiding/delaying marriage.

~~~
MichaelSalib
Many of the people I knew who married at 22 made bad marital choices. At least
in the eyes of their family and friends. I say that because they tended to
marry before they had established careers and before they had really lived
independently after school. Even if you think that modern society forces
people to postpone adulthood for too long, it does not necessarily follow that
early marriages will benefit people on average. After all, if adulthood is
delayed, then immature people will tend to make bad choices regarding future
mates.

I married in my late 20s. I have not avoided long term relationships.

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bluedanieru
It's true, with the job market in the toilet for the last decade, a public
school system that encourages all its students to go to college, and a student
loan industry that has allied with the federal government to drive up tuition
and milk students and their families for all they're worth (to say nothing of
predatory credit card lending), and with the resulting massive debt young
people take on in starting their lives these days unparalleled in US history,
yes people are tending to put off things like marriage, children, etc. Don't
let that stop you from publishing a ridiculous and haughty article about 'kids
these days' though, New York Times. I'd expect nothing less.

I was lucky enough to avoid the worst of most of this stuff, but I'm not about
to use that luck as a rhetorical device against my peers, some of whom made
decisions that certainly would have seemed correct to anyone at the time, or
who were simply misled by overzealous school counselors, or whatever. Just
sayin'.

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ilkhd2
I think hidden biological mechanisms related to overpopulation have kicked in.
Perhaps, subconsciously, when we see a lot more really old people living
around, something switches on suggesting that reproduction can wait. Maybe
informational explosion make us wait longer to acquire necessary amount of
knowledge, necessary for decent life.

Also, stupid TV and internet entertainment, combined with lack of opportunity
in USA contributes to this problem. ... Every time I switch on American TV, I
want to throw up.

~~~
sliverstorm
American TV's not ALL bad. Certainly mostly bad, but there are a few gems.

~~~
RK
And if you think American TV is bad, try watching TV in _any_ other country.
Things only get worse.

