
Ask HN: I'm a programmer. I am always angry at job. Is this normal? - seymores
Something always pissed me off at work -- whether it is bad code, unknown crashes, demanding boss, demanding clients, unreasonable colleagues, insensitive colleagues, damn deadlines that I didn't agree to, or emergency calls on weekends away.<p>I think I need help unless this is very normal for those in software development.
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edw519
Congratulations. You have admitted being at Level 3 of Pissedoffedness, the
last level before the solution.

Levels of Pissedoffedness:

Level 0: You don't know that anything is wrong. You just think that's just the
way it is.

Level 1: You know something is wrong, but you don't know what to do about it,
so you just go along with the program.

Level 2: You know what to do about it, but aren't yet able to do it. So you
stick it out, learning as much as you can.

Level 3: You know what to do about it and you are capable of doing it. Now
you're really pissed off (mainly at yourself) because you're a fish out of
water, in a place where you don't belong.

Level 4: You do something about it. You challenge the people at work to fix
things. You start fixing them yourself. Or, best yet, you just go out and do
it right on your own. Either way, sweet relief.

Get to Level 4. The days of pissedoffedness will soon seem like a distant
memory.

(I have been through this cycle many times, but now I'm at Level 4 and have no
intention of ever going back.)

~~~
Eliezer
At Level 2 with respect to the observable universe, heading for Level 4. I
don't understand why this list has a Level 3.

~~~
GavinB
Wait until you start creating something that you're _sure_ will work, and it
commits recursive suicide.

Or maybe you know exactly the necessary steps, but can't get sufficient
funding.

We all visit Level 3 at some point, it's just a question of how long.

------
jasonmcalacanis
This is not normal, although it might be common in the technology industry.

some important points to consider:

1\. Stress takes years off your life. You will die early, probably of a heart
attack, if you don't correct things.

2\. It is possible for two different individuals to look at the same exact
situation as insurmountable/overwhelming or, on the other hand, challenging
and fun. It really is a perspective thing.

3\. Without knowing the exact details of your situation it is impossible for
the untrained folks (i'm assuming here) to know how much of your stress comes
from you and how much comes from your current situation. Certainly it's a
little of both--but the % is critical to understand.

4\. You need to talk about these issues with a life coach, career coach or
even therapist. They will give you objective feedback on the state of affairs.

5\. If this helps, when I was younger in my career (Silicon Alley Reproter
days) I would sometimes internalize the bad situations my business was facing
(i.e. "What did I do to cause this?" or "Why didn't I see this problem
coming?"). This made me anxious. As I got older, and hopefully a little wiser,
I wouldn't internalize these things. In the Weblogs, Inc. days I would look at
problems as challenges. My internal dialogue morphed to "Oh, this is an
interesting challenge... I wonder what ideas my team can come up with to
overcome these roadblocks?" and "If we resolve this issue we're going to
soar!" This is called attribution theory in psychology and it's a very
important concept to understand IMO.

6\. Life is short and you get one shot at it. Don't be proud or stupid: get
help and get out of bad situations as quickly as possible. Do not stay in a
bad situation, like many smart people do, out of some "tough it out"
philosophy.

Good luck with it and if you wanted to talk about it with someone ping me at
jason at calacanis.com. I'm not a professional, but I been there.

------
hackoder
You know something's not right when people say stuff like how it's normal to
not be completely satisfied at work, to hate monday mornings and so on. Feels
like we're being told this just so we can shut up and keep working like
zombies. And it amazes me that so many people feel this way and yet nothing
changes at companies.

Anyway, yes, getting help is one option (bad code, like bad driving, is a part
of a dev's life. You try to keep a safe distance away from it ;) but you don't
get angry). Create an intuitive plan of what you'd really like to be doing and
at what company, and then get to work at solving the problem. Don't let it
hurt you until it boils over.

------
moe
Here's what worked for me (YMMV): Increase your rate until you either feel
comfortable again - or until they let you go.

Call me greedy but the question I usually end up at with annoying clients is:
"Is this worth it?". Pay me enough and I'll put up with whatever you throw at
me.

Obviously your pain/compensation ratio may be unrealistic (i.e. nobody is
gonna pay what you need to feel comfortable). In that case you'd have to go
freelance or dip a toe into different professions.

~~~
kls
This is actually really good advice. Though money cannot buy you satisfaction
in your job, it does help to alleviate some stress in other factors of your
life and can give you an outlet. More money means you can take a mini-vacation
every weekend or new toys or what ever floats your boat. The point being that
stress reduction in other facets of your life can really help one to cope with
work related stress. Not to mention that if the rate is good enough saying "oh
well at least they are paying me a small fortune" is a coping mechanism in
itself.

------
jimbobimbo
I would say you're burning out. It's definitely not normal. I'd change jobs if
it's possible.

Same stuff happens to me. Alas, I'm not in a position to change my job easily
(think immigration issues).

~~~
christefano
Agreed. It's surprising that in 40+ comments, yours is the only one that
mentions burnout.

------
bmj
Yeah, not normal. I think most of us can say that a job will have its ebbs and
flows, but if you are constantly ready to blow your stack, then you should be
looking for a new environment.

Also, I'd split your list out. Things like bad code and unknown crashes come
with the territory. That particular patch of grass is never greener on the
other side. Demanding clients are also likely to be a problem just about
anywhere, even if your clients are other people in the office. Your colleagues
and bosses, however, well, there will also be problematic people everywhere,
but you can get on with the people around you, then yes, you should should
consider a change.

In ten years in the industry, I've only once been "on call" and that was to
test our systems after a co-lo move. Sometimes deadlines will be silly, too,
but if there's a pattern to that silliness, then something is wrong.

------
giardini
How are you away from work? If you're rarely angry there, then it's job-
related. Anger is a symptom: the cause can be genetic or environmental.

One excellent programmer friend is "naturally angry". He takes medication to
control it. When his pills run short, his voice level and agitation increases
noticeably. He has shared his difficulties, which makes it easier for everyone
else to work with him. Angry or not, his judgement is always sound and
exacting and you'd best listen to him, whether he is raising his voice or
whispering.

So if you're like my friend, see a psychiatrist. They understand the organic
causes of emotions better and can prescribe appropriate drugs. Otherwise try a
kickboxing class or a good run or ask a girlfriend for a little sustenance.

------
roqetman
I think it's your subconsciousness's way of telling you that it's time to
search for a new job.

------
xcombinator
Who cares?

I don't care if this is normal or not, and honestly, I don't know you. How am
I supposed to help you?

You could be: A bad programmer. A good programmer. A non social person, and
hate socializing with colleagues. A social person and hate writing code alone.
A good leader that wants to decide by himself. A bad leader that just want
another relationship with his boss.

You want to be happy in your live, don't you?. So go to a good psychologist or
read books and fix that by yourself. You are a grown up human. Take
responsibility.

~~~
benatkin
> So go to a good psychologist or read books and fix that by yourself.

Believe it or not, people who go out and try to find a good psychologist often
wind up with mediocre, or even bad ones. Same with books and many other
things. If someone provided the magic keys to help them find good books and
good psychologists, you'd still need to know where to get the keys, and it's a
catch-22.

~~~
xcombinator
Yeah, you are right. But that there are bad doctors and engineers and teachers
doesn't mean there are no very good ones.

------
teralaser
Did you ever pick up a (personality) trait or habit from a co-worker, although
you didnt want to ? Did you ever have trouble understanding how a policeman
ignores obvious insults and stays cool ? Feelings are catchy like the flu, but
remember you are a part of the equation too. If you treat a desperate customer
with calm and being realistic, or colleagues with humor and a relaxed mood,
they might catch it too. So there is a starter strategy, although it might
take patience.

~~~
kls
You are right about this one, negativity can spread in an organization like a
cancer and once it has set in it is very hard to eliminate. It becomes a
corporate culture that is nearly impossible to eradicate. I have seen it
happen first hand on several occasions. Usually it starts, with a major
corporate event like a buyout or the termination of a highly respected
employee.

------
wgj
There is a concept in systems theory
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory>) that all systems must move
toward equilibrium. There is also a concept that you are a component in any
system that affects you. So, the course of action based on this is to change
yourself, and the rest of the system must change around you toward
equilibrium. This works much better than trying to directly change other
people or external situations.

I think a lot of your anger may be frustration at lack of control in your
situation. I know others are giving you advice to leave your job, but based on
your report, there's no evidence yet that the job itself is the problem.

You have an opportunity to use this as a learning experience and practice
different responses to situations. Observe the results. You may find that this
is in fact a toxic work environment, but you can't see that clearly until
you've mastered the situation. Finally, your anger is something that comes
from within you. It isn't part of the situation, and other people didn't put
it there. The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle provided really useful tools for
me in learning to understand and manage my emotions. I highly recommend it in
your situation.

------
nkohari
Being angry at work is very common, but that doesn't make it healthy. Take it
as a sign to look for another job, doing something you can take joy in.

~~~
motters
I agree. If you're persistently unhappy at work, this is probably a sign that
you should be trying to move to some other kind of job, although I realize
that will be difficult in the current economic situation. Being persistently
angry will eventually take its toll on your health, or could result in
incidents which will damage your career, so this is really just a question of
self preservation.

------
papaf
I'm in academia and enjoy what I do now. However, I went through years of the
same frustration. My solution was "save the interesting and creative stuff for
home". I feel this talk hits the nail on the head (its not just about ACLs):
[http://blog.cusec.net/2009/01/05/zed-shaw-the-acl-is-dead-
cu...](http://blog.cusec.net/2009/01/05/zed-shaw-the-acl-is-dead-cusec-2008/)

~~~
abyssknight
I have to admit, I loved that talk that Zed gave and it influenced myself and
a few of my coworkers quite a bit. Unfortunately, I refuse to allow my day job
to stifle my creativity. I'm pretty hell bent on innovation and finding new
and better ways to do things. Personally, I feel that your day job is in part
what you make of it. If you expect it to suck, it will. Now, that's not to say
it won't suck for other reasons.

------
Mz
It sounds like most of the stuff that sets you off is people-related. If you
are an introvert, certain types of social intrusions are going to generally be
harder to deal with than others. The right boss (one who respects your space
better), the right type of working environment with the right type of policies
and/or the right job where you have less of that might help.

------
notphilatall
I don't think it is specific to software development, it sounds like you just
aren't getting respect from your colleagues. The same could happen to folks in
chemical engineering, public relations, or any professional setting.

Set boundaries. If an unreasonable deadline is set onto you, insist on the
reasonable date you previously agreed to. Tell insensitive colleagues to
straighten up, or you'll leave or go to HR. If you are on a romantic get-away
for the weekend, make it clear that the problem will be your top priority
Monday morning (or Sunday night). If things are on fire and you are the point
man on the situation, you should stand up, but you should not bend over.

Be willing and prepared to leave. Keep enough money in savings to be able to
walk away from the job and take a few months to find a better fit.

Good luck!

------
ct
It's ok to be slightly ticked off but not always angry. Maybe it is the work
conditions. If so switch jobs.

However, if you've been switching jobs for a while now and still feel the same
way at every job, then either you've got bad luck with picking your jobs, or
you're just a bit too sensitive.

At the end of the day though, no job is going to be perfect, and you're not
going to be at any job forever anyhow -- so my advice is to just let things
slide, brush your shoulders off (channeling Jay-Z), and say to yourself this
crap isn't going to matter in a year or two anyhow so why am I getting worked
up about this. (Works for me most of the time)

------
praptak
I believe that the word "normal" does not help here. It bundles "common" with
a solid dose of "acceptable". While I think your situation is common in IT,
you should definitely separate this fact from its acceptability.

------
andrewcooke
i find that i am happier once i have a project "rolling along" - the start and
end are more frustrating, but the work in the middle is pretty peaceful.

maybe you are in a transition period between projects, or need to shift to a
position where you get to work longer term on a single project?

[edit: this applies on more than one scale - it's best if a project lasts for
a couple of months or more, but even within a single week i prefer to not
switch around too much, so try to do avoid anything smaller than day-sized
chunks when possible]

------
lutorm
Sometimes anger can make you stronger (give in to your anger, Luke...) But
some things you can't change, you can only change how you deal with them.
Unless it's caused by an immediate physical threat to you or your loved ones,
anger is a choice or a learned response and you can learn to respond
differently. Have you tried chi gong or other forms of meditation? Something
to help you see the big picture and realize that these annoying things _don't
really mean anything to you_.

~~~
Mz
I had an abusive childhood and lived with a _lot_ of (very legitimate) anger
for many years. I'm generally pretty slow to anger these days.

Some thoughts:

Unlike depression, anger contains energy for action. If used constructively,
this can be a Good Thing.

The best antidote to anger is action. I find that I fume when I feel helpless
to act. Even just analyzing why something is ticking me off is an effective
action that starts reducing my anger. If that leads to a To Do list for how to
resolve the problem, the anger can pretty completely dissipate -- even _while_
I continue to live with the same frustrations that caused it. But I stop being
angry because I know I am working on a solution and won't have to put up with
it forever.

Although a lot of people feel bad about being angry and we are generally
taught that anger is a bad thing, feeling bad about being angry is a waste and
anger is not an inherently bad thing. Righteous anger can do a great deal of
good in the world. If you are angry for the right reasons and then take
constructive action to resolve the problems causing it, anger is nothing you
need to worry about "fixing" per se. When the actual cause of the anger is
resolved, you will stop being angry.

~~~
btilly
It sounds like you are someone who is not naturally angry who had a lot of
cause for anger at one point in your life. I would be very careful in
extrapolating from that experience to what will work for people who may have a
natural tendency towards being generally angry.

~~~
Mz
No, I'm naturally a hot head. One reason I don't anger easily these days is
because I have resolved a lot of my problems and I rarely run into anything as
extreme as what my past held. So most stuff is "small potatoes" in my eyes.
I'm a "bounce off the walls" type but I surround myself by people who aren't
like that so it doesn't get fed. My youngest son is also something of a hot
head, though less expressive of it in part because he is an introvert. We have
found that when we are mad, the best thing to do is physically separate us.
Doing so reduces tension by 50%. We feed on each others anger.

------
nreece
Being always angry and frustrated at work is more common than many might
think, but it's certainly not healthy.

Ideally, you should do what you love in order to be able to love what you do.

~~~
seymores
I love software development and is grateful that I'm being paid for doing it
everyday.

But I still get pissed off more often than I would like to. Yes, I do think
it's not normal. I think I should try to get somekind of help.

~~~
nreece
If you think some kind of counselling will help you, then you should certainly
go for it.

Nothing is more important that your state of mind and health.

------
Jim_Neath
I hope it's normal because I'm pretty much the same.

------
clueless123
Be professional (Read clean code chapter 1), do your best, don't take it
personal.. it is just a job.

If you are good at what you do, and behave professionally you should not have
to be angry at your job.

Now, If you are being asked to behave in a matter YOU consider unprofessional,
it is up to YOU to say "I can't do that" and... be prepared to find some other
job.

Having options is the best medicine for frustration.

------
seymores
Thanks everyone for the replies. Helped me more than you know.

I'm not going to quit my job -- this is the best job of all the jobs so far.
Oh well, not yet anyway.

I could be frustrated because it supposed to be a quiet weekends away from
work or it could be that I just burn out lately.

------
rmetzler
I had a love/hate relationship with software programming for a couple of years
until I discovered test driven development for me and committed myself to do
development cycles with the client.

Maybe that would work for you as well.

------
iworkforthem
It is not normal. Bad project mgmt if you asked me. PM did not manage the
change request, did not manage users expectations, did not recruit the best
talent, etc.

But then have I done yet to help him? Hm... I think I have.

------
ScottWhigham
Not normal, not by a longshot.

------
jarsj
I conjuncture being angry is directly proportional to how smart you are

~~~
dagw
I counter conjecture that if you plot smartness vs anger you'll get a Laffer
curve shaped graph. If you're really dumb you won't realize that there is
something to be angry about and if you're really smart you'll find trivial way
to work around the problem without getting annoyed. The real problem is
somewhere between those points where you are smart enough to realize every
that is wrong, but just not smart enough to find the right thing to do about
it.

~~~
zackattack
Brilliant

------
known
I think you're _frustrated_. Take a small vacation.

------
KevBurnsJr
Speak your mind. Even if your voice trembles.

------
chanux
I don't know but I've heard "Love what you do than do what you love"

------
diN0bot
maybe it's normal for you?

------
pwnstigator
If you're "always angry", you need to get out now. If you're occasionally
angry or stressed (e.g. 5 to 10% of the time) that's normal.

Every job has annoyances, but if you're constantly pissed off, you need to do
something. My advice would to be to start speaking out when people take
advantage of you. If a client is being unreasonable and making your life hell,
he's probably making your boss's life even worse. Figure out who you can talk
to, and what you might be able to say, in order to improve your situation. You
may have to find another job. If you're this angry, my advice would be to
start the search process now.

A lot of Americans think it's a reasonable strategy to bottle in anger at the
workplace, rather than speaking their minds. This made sense when people
stayed at the same company for 30 years, and when getting fired or laid off
was a disaster, because you'd be around the same people for most of your
working life. Now that the average job lasts 2 to 5 years, it doesn't make
sense. You're better off raising the issues (in a respectful, reasonable way)
than repressing the anger and damaging your health.

