
Primer (film) - iamwil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primer_(film)
======
X-Istence
Please, don't read the Wikipedia article before you go out and rent or buy
this movie. The movie is absolutely fantastic.

I have seen it 17 to 18 times, and even-though people have attempted to
explain everything that is going on to me I still have a hard time wrapping my
mind around it. Awesome for the hacker in you!

~~~
ciaranbradley
I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen this movie yet, I must order the DVD this
weekend, (now that I've been reminded for the umpteenth time).

On a side note, my biggest annoyance with Wikipedia is manifest in articles
about movies. For some reason, they allow an editorial policy of essentially
writing out a scene by scene account of a movie.

~~~
jsm386
It's on Netlfix Streaming if you have an account...Was recommended to me last
week by the system - which I'm definitely glad for.

~~~
ciaranbradley
I'm in the UK, I'm not sure whether Netflix is over here yet. Not to worry,
it's on a retail website for reasonable money, and I wouldn't mind owning a
copy :)

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phoboslab
Primer is one of my all time favorite movies. I had goose bumps watching it
the first time.

The linked timeline from the article is actually pretty "easy" to read and
really helped me understand what I've just seen. Just watch the movie
beforehand :)

<http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/primer_timeline.html>

Edit: The entire movie is officially(?) available on Google Video, though the
quality is not that good. You should find yourself a better copy...

<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3909854615539675694#>

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mattheww
Bad news guys. Carroll, Farhi, and Guth along with 't Hooft already looked
into this in the 1990s. The only way time travel is possible is if there is
already a time machine in the universe. If there isn't one already, it's
impossible to create one in an open universe, and in a closed universe, it's
not possible to create one and then use it before the universe ends.

The proofs are in 2+1 dimensions, but they're generally believed to hold in
3+1.

<http://preposterousuniverse.com/research/#ctcs> for a brief summary with
references by Carroll.

~~~
Panoramix
As I understood it, this pertains to a specific implementation of a time
machine i.e., the Gott time machine.

The jury is still out on other implementations, though of course everything
seems to point towards them being impossible.

~~~
mattheww
You're right, but what other implementations have proven they can actually
produce a closed time-like curve?

~~~
Panoramix
Well, you have wormholes (but they require exotic matter) and anything with
singularities in it; there is the Gödel solution of a "rotating Universe"
(which could be true for a "parallel" universe), the van Stockum's solution
and so on. I guess until closed time-like curves are proven to be unphysical
(which seems likely), physicists will keep coming up with possible solutions
to Einstein's equations which allow for CTCs (and refuting them). And who
knows, maybe one of them can be implemented by humans.

On the other hand, it would be very interesting to know what is the mechanism
by which the Universe protects itself against CTCs.

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petewarden
I discovered this through a fantastic list of 'mindfuck movies':

[http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/reviews/mindfuck_movi...](http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/reviews/mindfuck_movies.php)

It's definitely the most complex of the bunch, but most of them were great
finds. Cube was another low-budget gem, and on the other end of the spectrum
there's The Game with Michael Douglas.

~~~
Jun8
Thanks for this awesome list, unfortunately it seems I've watched most of
them. I especially recommend La Jetee (the Hollywood remake, Twelve Monkeys is
also good) and Solaris.

I started watching _Primer_ but gave up after 10 minutes or so, maybe the
effects of watching it late after you put your child to sleep.

~~~
trafficlight
Give it another shot. It's not an action flick, you need to give it more than
10 minutes.

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surki
On a tangential note, Timecrimes (Spanish) is another good movie I enjoyed
watching - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Cronocr%C3%ADmenes>

~~~
joshsharp
Agree, Timecrimes is very similar and good value.

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bd
If you liked Primer, check also Timecrimes:

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480669/>

~~~
jganetsk
I prefer Timecrimes to Primer... it doesn't try to confuse the viewer.

SPOILER ALERT.

Also, single timeline based time travel is just plain better than multiple
timeline based time travel. There are just way too many problems that having
multiple timelines introduces. I don't think you can ever tie up all lose ends
with multiple timelines... someone can always just build a time machine later
and fork the past. Maybe Primer addresses this with the limitations of their
devices.

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maushu
Required link to related xkcd strip: <http://xkcd.com/657/>

~~~
matt1
Shameless self-promotion: my timeline app, Preceden, which lets you make
multi-layered timelines, would be perfect for representing timelines like this
(and the one in Primer!).

Check it out: <http://www.preceden.com>

~~~
timelinex
Wow, cool I am going to do a timeline app for london start weekend. Planning
to start prototype this weekend.

Just some feedback lower the barrier to entry. From the initial look of it, it
seems like it would have a steep learning curve.

Your stats look great though. Spend $60 and get $145 back, you are on to
something.

~~~
matt1
Thanks for the feedback.

The $5/day the led to that $60 didn't result in any paying customers, so I
stopped. Blog reviews and word of mouth are much more effective.

As far as usability goes, it should be pretty easy to use. There are advanced
features, but for a simple timeline, you should be off and running in minutes.

Hope you like it.

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trafficlight
The best thing about Primer is that it felt completely real. I felt like I
could go out to my garage and build something amazing.

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sandaru1
speaking of (relatively) low budget films, "The Man from Earth" is awesome
(it's low budget relative to Hollywood, not relative to Primer; $200,000)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_from_Earth>

~~~
pingou
I loved Primer.

But The man from Earth was just boring, I don't get why so many people liked
it.

Bad actors, the hero claims are either dull or ridiculous (I laughed a lot
when he pretended to be J.), and most important of all, not surprising. I knew
what the movie was about before I saw it, and if it can't show me more than I
can imagine myself, it just sucks.

I'll be happy to get some downvotes so that some of you could save 2 hours by
not viewing this movie.

~~~
staunch
If you liked Star Trek: TOS, or perhaps any Star Trek, you should not listen
to this man. Watch the movie at least once. Although heavily flawed and not
particularly novel (just like Star Trek) it will strike a chord with some
people. It did with me.

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seiha
It's available for instant playback on Netflix if anyone was wondering.

~~~
timmaah
But only through the end of the month (Monday)

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eru
Wasn't Primer available free to view on Google Video?

~~~
pkrumins
It is! <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3909854615539675694>

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reduxredacted
Set time aside to watch it twice. It's only 77 minutes long, and I believe
that's a plus. I saw this for the first time with a few friends and when it
was over, nobody protested when I started it over immediately.

I've watched this movie several times and I pick up on new things almost every
time.

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ivankirigin
Do NOT read this if you haven't seen the movie. Don't learn anything about it.
Just watch it.

I guarantee you'll have a better time.

~~~
pavel_lishin
And then watch it again. And again.

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retube
Yeah a great flick. Only cost $7k dollars to make or something. Needs to be
watched MANY times to figure it out, but the great thing is it seems to all
hold together.

~~~
dzuc
The DVD commentary is incredibly interesting because of this - mostly
explaining how they kept the cost so low

~~~
rbanffy
It's rather simple. They traveled back in time with the complete movie. $7K
was what the cost to build the time machine they used.

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hugothefrog
Another movie similar to this (I think, having not seen the movie, but from
reading the discussions) is Momento:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_%28film%29>

IMO it stays with you a long time after you've watched it..

~~~
artlogic
I have to say I felt that Memento was only good for a single watching. This
may be an oversimplification, but if you reorganized the movie with all the
scenes in reverse it would just be a mediocre movie about a guy who can't
remember anything and the people he interacts with. I guess I just felt it was
gimmicky.

Primer, on the other hand doesn't use a single editing gimmick or plot twist,
but rather does a deep drive in the mind bending situations that can occur
when time travel becomes possible.

~~~
hugothefrog
Thanks for the comparison :)

I can't say I've watched Momento more than once. I guess that says something
in itself.

I'll definitely be getting a copy of Primer now!

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ibejoeb
I can't say it's my favorite, but I like it and respect it. I think I like it
more knowing how it was done. It's hard to characterize it without sounding
negative, but these guys were practically neophytes. The budget was tiny, and
the actors are not conservatory trained or anything. It's shot very nicely,
and it mostly feels quite natural. It was bootstrapped to success. In that
way, it's a good spiritual match for the HN community.

Criticisms: it's twisted beyond comprehension, and it's jargony almost to a
fault. I find it tough to get some people to sit through it.

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dublinclontarf
I like how this movie has cost $7000 and brought in nearly $500,000.

~~~
Alexo
I just wanted to clarify that it's very misleading to say that this film cost
$7000. It cost $7000 and several years of Shane's life, as well as a torrent
of favours from his friends, family and others.

Why is this an important distinction? Because you can't calculate or quote
business investment and return while discarding the cost of people working for
several years on a project for free.

Saying that Primer cost Shane Carruth $7000 to make is like saying that The
Harry Potter Book Series cost J K Rowling 19 ink cartridges.

It's important to appreciate what Shane achieved with such few resources
though, and it's interesting to note also that he was a software engineer
before making his way into filmmaking.

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happyrichpinoy
this will help make it easier to understand the movie ->
<http://www.nobleworld.biz/images/Gendler.pdf>

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brandonkm
>After principal photography, Carruth took two years to fully post-produce
Primer. He has since said that this experience was so arduous that he almost
abandoned the film on several occasions.

Wow. This particular fact really stood out to me. I'm glad he chose to be
resilient and finish the project. Theres a lot of parallels founders can draw
upon from the making of this film (budget, style, technique, etc.).

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gorog
If you like films like Primer you will like Triangle. I clearly want to watch
it again to understand every time loop. Plus there's Melissa George in the
lead role, which doesn't hurt.

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1187064/>

If you're broke, it's available on Bittorrent (I am broke). Otherwise you
won't regret your purchase.

~~~
fierarul
Triangle was ok, but it has another feel to the movie. It's a bit of a horror
with some mystical explanation to it.

But Primer is pure mind-bending sci-fi. You could feel the atmosphere of the
guys inventing something like few other movies.

Actually - this is how I think a startup should feel and look like: the way
the movie portrays it at the beginning, while the guys are still figuring
things out.

~~~
roc
Agreed. TRIANGLE was a pleasant surprise --far better than the average for
that genre-- but not 'hard' sci-fi.

Another surprisingly good lower-budget/-attention sci-fi film is PANDORUM.

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glaze
You can also watch it on voddler for free.

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mcantor
I was completely taken off-guard by the time travel humor:

"Are you hungry? I haven't eaten since later this afternoon."

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glaze
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Pi in this thread yet:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(film)>

It's a low-budget philosophical/mathematical/surrealistic geek film.

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micheljansen
The funniest thing is that people have actually tried to graph all the
different timelines. Some examples:

    
    
      * http://i.imgur.com/kqja1.jpg
      * http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/PrimerTimeline.gif

~~~
olliesaunders
Why is that funny?

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Indyan
Just watched the movie for the first time and understood pretty much nothing.
Went through the Wikipedia summary and still I don't understand a lot of
things. Will take another crack at it tommorow morning.

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aarongough
I watched this movie several years ago, and thinking about it _still_ messes
with my brain. Even though I wouldn't watch it again, I still recommend you go
and see it if you haven't already!

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foxtrot
Its a tough watch the first time, I was left scratching my head!

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agentultra
It's a great film and the way it was made is very inspiring. Makes me think
about picking up that dusty hd cam sometimes. Either way, a must see.

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cj
FYI - you can stream this movie from netflix on demand.

(though the movie has only 1.5/5 stars, interestingly enough.

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MisterWebz
The Machinist is worth watching too.

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bendauphinee
Primer was a fantastic movie. Total mindf*, but then that is what made the
rewatch worth it.

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thegyppo
A friend was telling me about this last night too, strange coincidence!

~~~
forinti
Not really, he read about it today and told you about it last night.

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bitwize
"What's that?"

"It's a time machine."

"Does it work?"

"Heck, yeah, it does. You don't even _know_."

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ilkhd2
Alas, most of people saw Avatar, and believe that it was the best movie in the
history of genre..

~~~
kevinelliott
I haven't seen Avatar yet. I'm likely one of the 7 who hasn't.

~~~
mattmanser
It was totally worth seeing in 3D and on big screen just for the effects.
Story's lame though.

~~~
jokermatt999
Exactly. I don't get all the Avatar hate. The story was bad, but the cinematic
experience was excellent. It was a summer blockbuster style movie. I didn't go
into it expecting a plot, I went into it expecting action, explosions, and
shiny things. It delivered superbly on those things. Don't judge Avatar
against hard sci-fi, judge it against something like Star Wars or the new Star
Trek movie. Its purpose was to entertain, not to leave you thinking about it
for days. Personally, I find nothing wrong with that. I generally prefer
movies like Primer, but sometimes it's nice to kick back with a bucket of
popcorn and marvel at the pretty lights.

~~~
SandB0x
I found it impossible to relate to or care about any of the characters.

If you haven't seen it, find the incredible review of the Phantom Menace on
YouTube by Red Letter Media. The most insightful part is where he asks people
to describe the nature of the characters in both trilogies. For the original
movies, people instantly recall, for example the
"dashing...arrogant..scoundrel" Han Solo. For the newer films, nothing. What
was princess Amidala like? Nobody cares.

Avatar suffered from this, and no amount of shiny graphics could ever bring me
to care. With great characters you can forgive all kinds of things (eg
Battlestar Galactica.)

~~~
moultano
I think people could do a pretty good job of that for Avatar. The characters
were nothing if not archetypical.

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rick_2047
I like to maintain my take on time travel as described by Sheldon in Big Bang
theory

"Sheldon: It occurs to me that if I ever did invent a time machine, I will
just go into the past and give it to myself. Thus eliminating the need to
invent it in first place. That really takes the pressure off".

I would like to hear what you guys think of time travel, after all it has be
one of the favourite subject of speculative science fiction.

~~~
jokermatt999
Some spoilers, beware.

Honestly, I'm rarely a fan of time travel stories. They tend to be full of
plot holes and half-baked logic. Since everything is theoretical, it seems
like many writers just pull whatever rules they feel like out of a hat, and
use it as a sort of deus ex machina. Very rarely is it used well in my
opinion. Primer is one of the rare exceptions because it's well structured and
thought out (maddeningly so), but overall I tend to skip such things.

Also, it could be noted that Primer being about time travel could be
considered a spoiler. I didn't know what it was about until it was actually
revealed in the movie, and I was kind of happy having it that way.

