
Fixing Reddit - whack
http://www.thecaucus.net/#/content/caucus/community_blog/103
======
CM30
I think the simplest fixes for Reddit would be just to make sure anyone who
works for the site actually agrees with its goals. That's what caused most of
the reason issues, they hired people who didn't really like the challenges
that being pro freedom of speech brings, and who favoured doing well with
companies and celebrities over being a place for communities of like minded
people to discuss things they enjoy.

The other improvements they mention sound good, but Reddit's issues are more
down to leadership problems than community/cultural/technical ones.

~~~
cLeEOGPw
> challenges that being pro freedom of speech brings

Well, the thing is, reddit is a private company and so the classic "freedom of
speech" definition does not apply to it. And while their goal was unrestricted
discussion a few years back, in attempt to pave road for profitability they
have abandoned that goal. The goal of reddit right now it to become as
attractive to advertisers as possible. What that entails is up to them to
decide. One of the effects is heavy moderation of anything controversial. They
seem to be attempting to "play it safe". We'll see if it will pay off.

~~~
CM30
Well, to some degree, that's their problem. They made their bed and they have
to lie in it.

A key community manager rule is 'don't promise freedom of speech on your site,
because you likely don't have it and you will get absolutely eviscorated the
minute you try and censor anything':

[http://www.managingcommunities.com/2010/01/24/when-
talking-a...](http://www.managingcommunities.com/2010/01/24/when-talking-
about-what-you-allow-on-your-community-dont-say-freedom-of-speech/)

[http://www.managingcommunities.com/2015/07/16/your-online-
co...](http://www.managingcommunities.com/2015/07/16/your-online-community-
does-not-allow-free-speech/)

If you say your community is pro freedom of speech or allows freeom of speech,
you pretty much make yourself obliged to allow anything that's not literally
illegal. That will include an awful lot of stuff that you personally don't
like, that your corporate backers don't like, that other members on the site
don't like...

And hence you have to make the awful decision; do you allow anything (like
Voat or certain chan boards) and accept the consequences? Or do you start
censoring and immediately lose the right to say you allow freedom of speech?

Making comments like this is a great way to cause a site or business to self
destruct spectacularly. Reddit may be a private company, but their community
was founded on a freedom of speech stance. They've turned against those
ideals, so now they're going to struggle a lot more since people feel they've
been betrayed.

That's a situation Reddit is going to have a lot of trouble escaping. And they
could have at least delayed it by not hiring people who dislike the principles
the company and site was founded on.

~~~
cLeEOGPw
It is frustrating for those that pioneered reddit to grow to what they are now
that the site has completely changed, but looking from business perspective,
early adopters are not the crowd that brings profit. They generate content,
but they mostly generate content for others like them (mostly
technology/programming and other geek stuff related). Those that generate
profit, i.e. in reddit's case buy reddit gold AND don't use adblock, are the
people that care about other things, and freedom of speech is the least of
their concerns.

So from business analytic's perspective, he sees the numbers and he sees the
target audience PLUS advertiser contract clauses (like no
racism/sexism/certain porn things, non-liberal leaning things in general), and
you get essentially private censorship. It's not a pretty sight, especially
looking at deleted and locked threads daily, but it has a certain logic behind
it. That logic is not in out favor, but we are not all people.

------
Huhty
A lot of sites have tried to "fix" reddit. I even worked with one of them
(snapzu) on some of their back-end stuff. One thing I did was research what
else was out there to see what stuff was/wasn't being innovated on. Here's
what reddit is competing with today (other than caucus):

1\. [http://snapzu.com](http://snapzu.com) (worked with this one about a year
ago)

2\. [http://getaether.net](http://getaether.net)

3\. [https://stacksity.com](https://stacksity.com)

4\. [https://frizbee.co](https://frizbee.co)

5\. [http://hubski.com](http://hubski.com)

6\. [http://empeopled.com](http://empeopled.com)

7\. [http://voat.co](http://voat.co)

8\. [https://piroot.com](https://piroot.com)

9\. [http://www.linkibl.com](http://www.linkibl.com)

10\. [http://criticl.me](http://criticl.me)

That being said, I just want to wish you good luck on your endeavor... the
social network game is a really tough nut to crack because community is 99% of
the value.

~~~
spinlock
Why are there so many reddit clones? Reddit doesn't make money. Imgur, on the
other hand, is printing cash by selling ad space. But, no one is trying to
move into their market.

I just don't understand why people are going after a market that seems to be
unprofitable. Am I missing something?

~~~
fweespeech
1) Most of the Reddit competitors are hobbies while Imgur was built as a
business. Similarly, their competition with Reddit is largely ideological
rather than practical values people care about en mass.

2) Everyone who tried to move into Imgur's position found image hosting was
very expensive and impractical as a hobby. The problem is they've largely been
ideological and cut off from Reddit's ecosystem due to Imgur's incumbency.

3) Ultimately, until Reddit or Imgur stumbles in a substantial way that pisses
off users none of them will be viable even with VC money.

 __For instance: __

[https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush](https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush/comments/2tzuv0/mediacru...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush/comments/2tzuv0/mediacrush_is_shutting_down/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush/comments/2v8ume/why_didn...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush/comments/2v8ume/why_didnt_admins_sell_mediacrush/)

which was followed by:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush/comments/2vpfwe/imgrushc...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MediaCrush/comments/2vpfwe/imgrushcom_is_live_standing_on_the_shoulders_of/)

 __Currently the only really one I know of is: __

[https://voat.co/v/veuwer](https://voat.co/v/veuwer) aka
[http://www.veuwer.com/](http://www.veuwer.com/)

Slimgur

[http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/11/03/imgur-
alternative-s...](http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/11/03/imgur-alternative-
slimgur-taken-offline-by-targeted-child-porn-uploads/)

which became:

[https://voat.co/v/slimg](https://voat.co/v/slimg)
[https://sli.mg/](https://sli.mg/)

~~~
arrivance
I wouldn't say imgur was built as a business. The guy that made it made it as
a "gift for reddit" and struggled with hosting for a couple of weeks.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/7zlyd/my_gift_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/7zlyd/my_gift_to_reddit_i_created_an_image_hosting/)

~~~
fweespeech
It is a story he tells but he made the same claim on Digg and other places as
well. It was effective social marketing but there are a few things like that
about that just are popular beliefs that are just repeated 'cause the founder
was a college student at the time.

Most of the original links/evidence of that are gone from the internet at this
point tho and I'm tired of digging for them. :/

EDIT:

[http://web.archive.org/web/20090328080325/http://digg.com/od...](http://web.archive.org/web/20090328080325/http://digg.com/odd_stuff/imgur_the_simple_image_sharer_The_best_in_image_hosting)

[http://archive.is/JS5DV](http://archive.is/JS5DV)

> imgur - the simple image sharer. The best in image hosting. imgur.com —
> imgur is a free image sharing/hosting service that allows you to quickly
> upload and edit your photos and share them with friends the Internet. Now
> you're asking, "How is this different from imageshack, tinypic, or
> photobucket?" Well that's simple. imgur is free (as in beer), no ads,
> anonymous, and easier to use. It's my gift to the Internet. Enjoy!

Ah archive.org still has it.

But yeh, it was effective guerilla marketing only. It was posted to Digg
slightly before Reddit btw.

------
shostack
One big issue that could impact Reddit if not addressed is Imgur.

Recently Imgur appears to have started redirecting some people from direct
image links to their full site (some claim this happens even on submissions
linking directly to an image/gif). I've noticed this quite a bit on mobile or
in the Alien Blue app. Others have also reported this behavior. My guess is
Imgur is doing this not to display ads right away, but to drive people to
their own app for later monetization and growing their own brand/community.

Imgur has taken $40M in funding, and so is presumably needing to find an exit
at some point. Reddit sending tons of traffic directly to images was great for
establishing themselves deep in the Reddit ecosystem early on, but if people
are going directly to images vs. to the HTML page, that's a lot of lost
impressions beyond just those who visit it directly or go to upload photos.

The load times for their site vs. just direct image/gif files are pretty
painful on mobile, and this ultimately impacts the Reddit experience. I'm
really curious if Reddit would ever roll out their own image host as a result,
and it will be very interesting to watch this.

~~~
rezashirazian
A post
([https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/46c2v5/90_of_my_mobi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/46c2v5/90_of_my_mobile_reddit_experience/))
regarding this issue made it to the top of reddit yesterday. I figured I'd use
the occasion to highlight a project I worked in a few months ago. And although
the
comment([https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/46c2v5/90_of_my_mobi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/46c2v5/90_of_my_mobile_reddit_experience/d03yado))
was met with positive feedback from the community it was deleted by the mods
without an explanation.

The article should also highlight overzealous mods that paint every outgoing
link as spam.

~~~
shostack
Since the post is deleted, can you share a link to your project?

~~~
rezashirazian
[http://www.pixpit.com](http://www.pixpit.com)

It queries reddit.com/r/funny every ten minutes and collects the top 1000
images submitted. You as a user can then browse an endless stream of images
much like Instagram.

At the end of the night it takes all the collected images from that day and
parse them into 20 picture albums that user can be accessed by pressing the
shuffle button on the top bar.

It's a never ending stream of funny images

------
minimaxir
One of the things Reddit failed at was miscommunication and low transparency
between the admins and the users.

In that case, why are the vote scores on Caucus submissions _blatantly
inflated_? There is _zero_ probability scores are in the _hundreds_ for
_completely_ random content. (glancing at the number of unique accounts who
have made submissions, I question if 100+ active accounts even exist.)

~~~
Grue3
Yeah, that's what I thought, no way this post got 2000+ upvotes. Even on
Reddit such scores were relatively uncommon until recently.

~~~
plorkyeran
Reddit has a soft cap on scores, and without that popular submissions would
have scores in the tens of thousands:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/3g6ghn/reddit_ch...](https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/3g6ghn/reddit_change_the_scores_of_extremelypopular/)

------
6stringmerc
> _Hearing only the things that you agree with might be easy and comfortable.
> But the idea of a community where everyone only agrees with one another, and
> dissenting voices are promptly silenced, sounds more like dystopia to us._

I'm genuinely interested to see if this works out. Not kidding. However, with
a straight face, I can also say I'm not optimistic, because 'echo chamber'
tendencies are kind of why those "communities" tend to flourish, at least in
my perspective.

~~~
jonlucc
I actually think the problem is sort of the opposite. People who agree are
(usually) civil to each other. Online, where privacy or pseudonymity is the
norm, people who disagree with each other tend to do so in ways they wouldn't
imagine doing in person. Environments of disagreement seem to often devolve
into aggression and rude personal attacks.

------
KVFinn
Every reddit seems to trend towards either 100% upvotes based on agreeing with
the title of posts, or 100% image memes (sometimes both!) as it gets popular.
The only exceptions being communities with _extremely_ strict moderators like
/r/askhistorians.

------
seanalltogether
One trend I've noticed across lots of reddit clones is none of them match the
information density of reddit. Everyone seems to think that good design = more
padding

~~~
dang
Man oh man I enjoyed running across this comment. Massively true of the HN
clones as well.

------
natrius
Reddit only succeeded because Digg wasn't good enough: it changed in
undesirable ways, so users left. How are you going to convince enough
redditors that Reddit isn't good enough that a critical mass moves to your
platform?

I think it's prohibitively difficult, and only a decentralized system will
succeed.

------
miguelrochefort
The discussion thread must die.

\- Nobody wants to read a bunch of different ways to say the same things.

\- Nobody cares about the person that happens to be the first to say
something.

\- Nobody wants to read through a tree of indented comments.

\- Nobody has the time to read a wall of text when all they care about is the
TL;DR.

Ain't nobody got time for this. I want a clear visual representation of the
community's reaction to a post:

\- Why I should care about this post.

\- Why I should ignore this post, which doesn't deserve any of my attention.

\- Why I should have a positive reaction to what the post is about.

\- Why I should have a negative reaction to what the post is about.

\- How accurate and representative of reality is this post?

\- What actionable items I can take from this post.

\- What related content/posts should I seek if I want more of this.

The pyramid of why-should-i-care-ness should be presented to me in the right
orientation, or time is wasted.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _The discussion thread must die._

What alternative is there?

~~~
miguelrochefort
Semantics.

------
Smudge
_> By prioritizing the content and votes cast by highly reputed users, as
opposed to anonymous new arrivals whom no one knows or trusts, Caucus is
better able to figure out which content is most trustworthy._

How do you avoid the "Power User" effect that Digg (and arguably Reddit) ran
into? If your most reputable users keep getting more and more reputable,
eventually you have only a handful of very active users who have a majority of
the voting power.

~~~
sien
Cap it. Don't display numbers. Once someone is useful and helps the community
on a regular basis just leave it at that.

Ironically Slashdot actually did this. Of course it had lots of other
problems.

~~~
jonlucc
This was my first thought. The influence ought to follow a 4PL fit curve (not
sure what the function is called). You're only trying to make sure the user is
not terrible, you don't care once they've proven themselves worthy.

------
ghosttie
If there are no ads and no corporate sponsorships then how do they make money?

~~~
Mithaldu
Gotta love how "remove the vast majority of the cash flow" is a "micro"
improvement.

~~~
kiba
Basically nobody wants ads.

But if nobody wants to pay for a service, then maybe it isn't as useful as we
thought.

------
mjevans
I didn't read the link BECAUSE it requires scripts to view.

Having said that, as someone that uses some subreddits for forums there is
exactly one thing that I'd like to see done for Reddit (and any other site
with a downvote/dislike button).

If you click the downvote button it should instead prompt you to create a
reply denoted as a dissenting viewpoint. You will then explain your rebuttal.

Separately, a 'Report Abuse' button would flag a post for moderation attention
(but also include who's reporting the abuse). A moderator should be able to
see the full edit-history of a post (within the last day, maybe week).

------
miguelrochefort
Make contribution like a free market. The more you pay (with some kind of
credit), the more visibility your post/comment will get. If people like your
contributions, you earn credits. If they don't, you lose them.

I'm sure the gambling aspect (big gains if you invest a lot and wisely) would
hook a ton of people. Quality, hopefully, would follow.

------
knorker
> Give the Quiet Ones a Chance

Sounds like commie bullshit to me.[1]

It also sounds counter-productive to "building engagement". If I only have so
many "points" to give out, I won't upvote much, will I?

[1] I'm being funny, but I do have a point.

------
dkarapetyan
I just have a chrome extension that I call "add enemy!". When an enemy appears
in a discussion their comment is automatically removed. It does wonders for my
mental health. When some people consistently troll or have some kind of axe to
grind it's much easier to provide people with personalized bubbles.
Unsurprisingly the value I get out of discussions where the trolls are silent
is way higher.

~~~
redthrowaway
You know RES just lets you ignore people, right?

~~~
dkarapetyan
Oh nice. I didn't know that was a thing.

------
fiftyacorn
I always thought autgenerated tags would be good on posts - I could filter on
keywords

