
Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems - lewiscollard
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49273028
======
forgingahead
A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones
and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc):

I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any
confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now.

I _despise_ the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop.

I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal.

Etc etc etc

Sometimes manufacturers should just "version-lock" their devices and keep
going with it -- a lot of customers would be happier.

~~~
1123581321
What do you mean by “the start-stop nonsense” as opposed to using pedals? I
don’t have a newer car.

~~~
Gpetrium
OP is likely talking about the system that automatically shuts down and
restarts the combustion engine when you come to a complete halt. This is meant
to reduce emissions and fuel comsumption.

~~~
gambiting
I don't get why people are so opposed to it, I love it and I drive a Mercedes-
AMG. Fantastic feature in traffic.

~~~
leesalminen
Audi driver here, and I hate it. Especially hate that I have to push a button
every time I start the car to disable it. What an awful feature. Then again, I
live in rural America and traffic isn’t a frequent thing I experience.

~~~
gambiting
If you don't experience traffic frequently, then why would it bother you? It
does nothing if you're just driving along. And I'm curious - what exactly
makes you hate it?

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macrolime
Apple Watch Mac unlock uses time of flight to prevent relay attacks. Wouldn't
that prevent this kind of thefts?

Here's a description of the Apple Watch Mac unlock process
[https://networkingnerd.net/2016/09/21/apple-watch-
unlock-802...](https://networkingnerd.net/2016/09/21/apple-watch-
unlock-802-11ac-and-time/)

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duxup
Has there ever been a lot of friction as far as how quickly someone could get
into a car?

Let's say it took someone 60 seconds in the past, is 10 seconds really that
big of a change as far as committing the crime goes?

~~~
gambiting
It's not the getting in part that's the problem, it's starting the car that
is. When key-based immobilisers got introduced in the 90s the rate of car
theft has dropped through the floor, because suddenly thieves couldn't start
the car as easily as before. The keyless relay attack allows thieves not only
to open but also to start the car within seconds, all of which without
triggering the alarm.

------
gambiting
On my Mercedes key I always double click the lock button which entirely
disabled the keyless features until I use the key again.

Now the question is - is this actually safer? If some thieves arrive at my
house to steal my car and their relay gadget doesn't work, are they going to
give up, or are they going to break in and threaten me for the key? Now that's
a question I don't like to think about too much.

~~~
hugh-avherald
They're going to give up. It's opportunistic, they're not going to risk
robbery, or they'll think it's not working.

~~~
jcims
You would give up, as would most rational people. Once you’re committing
felonies the primacy of rational thought could be called into question.

~~~
dpark
No. The typical person who is willing to steal a car is not willing to commit
violent assault in order to take keys from you.

Someone whose logic is so flawed that they think “oh well, felony” is probably
not just stealing cars. At that point they might as well break into your
house, murder you for your stuff, and then do the same for every house on the
block. “Because felony”, right?

~~~
jcims
So ‘No.’ but then you go on to restate my point?

~~~
dpark
No. Your point seems to state that committing a felony implies that a criminal
is automatically willing to escalate to any other crime, as if anything
resembling rationality is impossible. I’m saying that’s absurd.

Car thieves don’t generally commit war crimes.

~~~
jcims
This is what i said:

>Once you’re committing felonies the primacy of rational thought could be
called into question.

This is what you're saying i said:

>Your point seems to state that committing a felony implies that a criminal is
automatically willing to escalate to any other crime, as if anything
resembling rationality is impossible.

See the difference?

~~~
dpark
No, I don’t see the difference. You said that someone committing one felony
will escalate to another felony because they can’t think rationally.

The question was whether someone who’s willing to break into a parked car to
steal it is willing to break into a house to assault the car owner in order to
take their keys to steal the same car. You said yes, or at least you implied
“yes” extremely strongly. If you _don’t_ believe the answer is “yes” then I
don’t know what the point of your comment was.

PS: The fact that you thought my absurd extrapolation of your statement was
making _the same point_ tells me that you do indeed believe a car thief is
likely to escalate to far worse crimes “because felony”.

------
sofaofthedamned
Both my neighbours either side of my house had their cars stolen by this on
the same night. One was a Jaguar, think the other was an Audi.

They didn't touch my car even though it was newer, probably because it was a
Kia. I am happy with my choice.

~~~
throwaway3627
There's a common attack that boosts the wireless signal of proximity fob to
trick the vehicle into unlocking & starting. Fob wireless systems should
ideally redesigned such that the round trip time is precisely measured of only
valid encrypted challenge responses that only the fob can answer.

Spending a bunch of money on a luxury vehicle is usually idiotic and most
people who do so usually can't afford it in proportion to their income sheet
and balance sheet. Plus, it advertises the owner and the vehicle as targets
for all sorts of criminal intrigue.

~~~
sofaofthedamned
Yeah I know the attack model, it was just amusing they took the cars that were
worth less (at market value) over the newer car that was less cool but worth
more.

We put our car keys in a metal tin near the door now which stops all this
anyway.

~~~
dpark
Your car probably wasn’t actually worth more to them. Even if your Kia was
worth more according to the Blue Book, it’s quite likely that Audis and
Jaguars fetch more on the parts market, and many (most?) stolen cars are torn
down for parts.

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SAI_Peregrinus
So can many old cars, with rockout keys[1].

[1]
[https://www.sparrowslockpicks.com/product_p/ck13.htm](https://www.sparrowslockpicks.com/product_p/ck13.htm)

------
izzydata
I can break into an old or new car in 2 seconds with a hammer. Thankfully
people don't break into your car just because they can.

~~~
viraptor
But you can't start the car with a hammer and drive away, which is something
the article talked about as well.

~~~
izzydata
Good point. That is concerning.

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modernerd
“Stolen in 20 seconds, but could not drive away.”

Isn’t that the same as “not stolen”?

The definition of stolen seems fuzzy here.

------
bombledmonk
And here I am living in smalltown America and I don't lock the doors on my car
in my driveway. For much of my life, I didn't even take the keys out of the
ignition.

------
astura
Back in the 80s my aunt and uncle each owned the same car, though different
model years. It didn't take them long to realize that both keys worked in both
cars.

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rad_gruchalski
A faraday car key bag costs about €20. And they work, I use one. But one has
to be consistent and always put the key in the bag. Not a problem, really.

~~~
mpclark
But... you shouldn't have to do this! It's an extra step, an inconvenience.

~~~
rad_gruchalski
Yes, I agree. What’s the point of keyless access when one has to always take
the key out of the faraday bag...

And I blame car manufacturers and dealerships for this. For introducing and
advertising these features without explaining to less saavy buyers what are
the risks.

------
tyingq
The article doesn't support the headline. I don't doubt there are
vulnerabilities, but the article didn't deliver.

~~~
snarf21
It is clear what the vulnerability is. A lot of these remotes are susceptible
to relay attacks. The car's challenge is being relayed into the house so the
fob can respond. This response is relayed back to the car. The door just opens
and you can start it and drive away.

It is also trivial to be this attack by adding an accelerometer to the fob. If
the fob isn't moving, don't respond to the broadcast from the car. You could
also be more extreme and have the car check constantly. If fob disappears,
kill the engine.

~~~
technofiend
>It is also trivial to be this attack by adding an accelerometer to the fob.
If the fob isn't moving, don't respond to the broadcast from the car. You
could also be more extreme and have the car check constantly. If fob
disappears, kill the engine.

That would have to be a pretty sensitive accelerometer but you'd still end up
with voodoo stuff like "I have to shake my purse while starting the car".
Killing the engine if the fob disappears means you need to be polling the fob.
See the lawsuits over heavy keys wearing out the ignition lock and steering
column locking up to see what happens when the polling fails. Probably not a
good idea, IMHO.

------
dpark
How would the victims quoted here have _any_ idea if their cars were opened
with a relay attack? Someone grabbed your bag? It’s more likely that you
forgot to lock your car than that you were a relay attack victim. Especially
if you were in such a bad state that one of you literally passed out at the
airport.

But also how are manufacturers still selling vulnerable cars? This seems like
a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. Relay attacks have been a known
vulnerability with known solutions for years.

~~~
cjrp
Leaving the car unlocked wouldn't explain how they were able to start the car
and drive off with it.

Car missing + all keys accounted for in your house + no smashed glass = relay
attack.

~~~
dpark
The people who have their bag stolen, did _not_ have their car driven away.

That’s a valid question for the other victim, but I’m pretty sure cars are
still occasionally stolen without the keys nearby by defeating the
immobilizer.

