
Alibaba founder defends overtime work culture as 'huge blessing' - SolaceQuantum
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tech-labour/alibaba-founder-defends-overtime-work-culture-as-huge-blessing-idUSKCN1RO1BC
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rfwhyte
It is indeed a "huge blessing." A "huge blessing" for the owners of companies
who are able to use "culture" as an excuse for the exploitation of workers.
The upside of this exploitation only ever accrues to owners, never to
employees, and the vast majority of employees, even in tech / startups, don't
own any equity in the companies they work for, so there's really no excuse for
this kind of nonsense to be taken seriously.

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FreedomToCreate
Can someone explain to me how it is a blessing to work 996. He literally says
"If you don't work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996". This
makes no sense at all. Why would anyone ever want to work 996. Lets burn our
youth on this BS for what future promise Mr.Ma.

~~~
forkLding
Its because Jack Ma still sees his company as it was in the startup days where
the objective was out-competing anybody (even Western tech companies) through
creativity, brutal price-cutting and sheer mental and time overload. These are
qualities he attributes to people in their youth who can burn the midnight oil
for their dream. It is also built on top of East Asian exploitative/"hard-work
brings success" work culture.

~~~
rqs
In China, some employers (who probably still living in 17 century) sees giving
out offer and salary is some kind of blessing.

So apparently Jack Ma sees his company as some holy saint who give those poor
farmland programmers food, water and life.

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exabrial
I can assure you one must look busy, but actually being busy is a whole
different matter. It's simply a matter showing hours in front of your boss and
their boss, not showing accomplishments. Worse off, if you do work
efficiently, accomplish your tasks, and leave at 5pm, you will lose respect
amongst your peers and boss. Source: I worked for Alibaba.

~~~
skinnymuch
Not being able to leave if you work well and are done by 5 sucks no matter
what. But can you do other things especially in the last 1/3 of the day when I
assume people will be more tired? Or if you’re not really working, is your
only real option to just lose that time entirely?

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wwwdonohue
_“Let me ask everyone, if you don’t put out more time and energy than others,
how can you achieve the success you want?”_

To be fair, Ma worked 996 when he started his own company, which is different
from being forced to do so because you can't find a developer job that doesn't
require you to work 996.

~~~
captainbland
Agreed. This kind of unadulterated competition is a race to the bottom for
their employees. Nevermind that it's almost certainly counter-productive and
that they'll just be pushing a bunch of already burned-out employees who'll
inevitably be making tired mistakes and developing outright resentment for
their paymasters.

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zeroc8
Do not listen to this P.O.S.

The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in
paradise (Europe). Our chinese coworkers hate 996 as much as anybody, but
social pressure keeps them in the rat race.

This is totally crazy, sick and stupid.

~~~
lazyjones
> _The more I learn about the world, the more I 'm convinced I'm living in
> paradise (Europe)._

Paradise for the unproductive and unambitious, yes. That's why Europe is no
longer innovative and competitive and China is doing much better.

~~~
Daishiman
I don't see the Chinese having vacations, great houses, breathing good air and
eating quality food. Woe unto them.

~~~
lazyjones
Then you are blind or ignorant. Visit any European capital these days to find
large flocks of Chinese tourists enjoying their expensive vacations, shopping
tours and gadgets.

~~~
tuesdayrain
I make more than enough money from a regular 9-5 job to enjoy all of those
things. I really don't see any way to justify working 996 without some sort of
absurdly high pay, which I doubt those workers are getting. That sounds more
like modern slavery.

~~~
lazyjones
> I really don't see any way to justify working 996 without some sort of
> absurdly high pay,

Many people don't just work for the immediate monetary benefit. Some like the
company or see some value in working there or in that industry specifically,
some want to prove themselves in a competitive environment to raise in ranks
and see better chances even if the starting position is bad etc. ... Some
might even like the rough working conditions because they appeal to their work
ethic. Slavery would mean they have no choice but they do and they choose 996.

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ilamont
_“I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing,” he said
in remarks posted on the company’s WeChat account.

“Many companies and many people don’t have the opportunity to work 996,” Ma
said. “If you don’t work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996?”_

9am to 9pm, six days a week.

~~~
strikelaserclaw
how else can you make your overlords richer?

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JohnFen
When I've started my own businesses, I worked 18 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Ma is a slacker by comparison!

But there's no way I'd be willing to devote my every waking minute to someone
else's business. So I guess that makes me the slacker...

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kevin_b_er
I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do
nothing but work. Why? It makes him more money. It does not forward the
aspirations of the workers, it just becomes a race to the bottom that the
workers lose on. This is good for the already rich, because it makes them
richer. This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their
desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer.

In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.

~~~
gridlockd
> I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and
> do nothing but work.

These days you'd actually except billionaires to go on a virtue signaling tour
on how they're paying too little taxes and how capitalism failed the little
man, e.g. like Warren Buffer or Ray Dalio.

> Why? It makes him more money.

It actually doesn't, good old capitalist Henry Ford already knew that 40 hours
are about the optimum in terms of worker productivity. Everything else is a
waste of time (and therefore money).

> This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire
> for others to help make them richer and others poorer.

Jack Ma came from nothing and worked very hard to get where he is. He really
believes in hard work paying off - what else is he supposed to believe?

Also, in a country with a billion people clamoring for a good job, worker
competition is cut-throat. It has nothing to do with "rich people" trying to
squeeze the workers like lemons. The lemons are squeezing themselves.

> In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.

Nope, that's just the "evil rich guy" narrative that your psyche desperately
wants to see confirmed.

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rqs
"I regret that I working so hard, spending so little time with my family" \-
Jack Ma, 2017

I guess this man only cares about he's own little family.

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alanpetrel
Sounds exactly like Japan, when will these people learn that tired workers are
unproductive and error prone workers?

One thing that really guts me about Brexit is that if the Tories get their way
then 996 will become the norm here too.

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alibabaeatsaas
> If you join Alibaba, you should get ready to work 12 hours a day, otherwise
> why do you come to AlibabA?

Wow. Sounds like a greedy capitalist. I would understand 995 if workers were
properly compensated. But 996 is almost inhumane. It stuck me as the same tone
as when Jeff Bezos defended Amazons work culture. I guess e-commerce must work
with very thin margins.

The only person that should be working 996 are the founders. Everyone else
should not be expected to work on the weekends.

~~~
andrei_says_
“If you join (company) you should get ready to work at 30% discount, to
sacrifice health, family and romantic relationships so that _I_ can get
richer. Otherwise why would you come to (company)?”

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mx06v
Funny, Jack Ma also said “Don't want to die in office, I'd rather die on
beach”. [http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-
alibaba/](http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-alibaba/)

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edmundsauto
I'm guessing he doesn't accept the research on information workers and hours,
nor read Deep Work. These kinds of hours will lead to lower overall production
and increased errors, if there's any cognition behind what is happening.

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rongenre
Apparently the best hires at Alibaba are blessed with the inability to do
arithmetic.

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JudasGoat
As a member of CCP, I don't know how free Mr Ma would be to critique something
like 996. Is 996 a Party endorced idea?

