
On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score - ramzyo
https://www.wsj.com/articles/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-might-be-your-secret-customer-score-1541084656
======
kenneth
The most obvious example of this in daily life is through airlines, where the
difference is pretty transparent and you get night-and-day better service by
being a loyal customer.

With top status with AA and UA (EXP and 1K), you connected to U.S.-based very
senior phone agents right away, who always make sure to take care of any issue
that arises. 50min delay on your AA flight? No problem, sir, we are rebooking
you on Alaska so you don't miss your dinner meeting. (Real example from last
weekend)

Customers are put in different levels in the loyalty program, with the top
level getting to pre-board the flight, getting free upgrades to any empty seat
in business, getting many other extra perks that make flying a joy. You get a
smile, a thank you, and a free drink when flying in the back. Within a status
level, customers are oftentimes ranked by how much revenue they bring to the
airline. (On AA, upgrades are ordered by Elite Qualifying Dollars the flyer
has spent in the prior year)

Contrast that with the experience the vast majority of people have flying the
very same airlines: say the words United Airlines to your average flyer and it
brings back memories of Dr. Dao, of cramped seats in the back middle row, of
not being able to bring a carry-on because they're in basic economy, of having
to gate-check your bags, etc.

At the end of the day, frequent flyers bring the vast majority of profits to
airlines, so it makes sense to focus all efforts on catering to them vs. the
average person. The cheap seats have very low margins, oftentimes negative… so
it just infeasible economically to give everyone good service.

~~~
wpietri
Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of
these programs?

I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card
points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I
don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given
interaction.

I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies
somehow, so I figure I'm doing ok once I account for the cost of my time and
for situations where they'd get me to pay more.

~~~
arebop
Also: does anyone see these programs and think wow, this airline UX is so
awful I want to show them my loyalty so that eventually they'll stop trying so
hard to make me unhappy?

I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar
corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with
favoring one airline over another, where this decision costs the shareholders
a little bit but only the employee who's traveling will notice. Then it makes
perfect sense: the employee directs a little extra money from the treasury to
the airline, the airline provides a kickback to the employee in the form of a
little comfort or attention, and that explains the whole miles phenomenon.

~~~
technofiend
>I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar
corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with
favoring one airline over another,

I suppose it depends on the business but at my Fortune 50 we're required to
use "lowest logical airfare". You can force a choice of Southwest over United
by choosing one airport over another, and there's enough wiggle room to let
you fly at your preferred times but overall it's designed to prevent gaming
and escalates things for review if you try.

But unless you're a highly placed executive no one travels on the company dime
often enough to bother with air miles anyway; airlines require far too much
travel for even the bottom-most loyalty tier.

~~~
wenc
> But unless you're a highly placed executive no one travels on the company
> dime often enough to bother with air miles anyway

This isn't really a true statement. Marketing and enterprise sales folks
travel a lot on the company dime. I'm on the engineering and consulting staff
in my company, and I travel a decent amount, mostly domestic. Most of our
engineers do frequent on-sites. One might not be able to get status, but the
air miles definitely add up. I've been able to get more than a few free
flights and upgrades. I would say it's worth bothering about.

~~~
technofiend
> Marketing and enterprise sales folks travel a lot on the company dime

Yes, my bad. I just meant at my employer; we've invested heavily in
telepresence, so only the bigwigs here get to travel with any regularity. And
I was really trying to say without regular travel you won't end up with a
meaningful status. For example United has a raft of tiers so unless you're [1]
1K or Global Services [2] you're literally not at the front of the queue for
anything. Even their "Group 1" / "Group 2" boarding system meant to speed
things up has a giant asterisk that reads "except 1K/GS, they go before anyone
else."

[1] I'm using the colloquial "you" here to really mean "one" which sounds very
stiff and formal to me. I don't literally mean _you._

[2] [https://thepointsguy.com/2017/08/united-global-services-
in-2...](https://thepointsguy.com/2017/08/united-global-services-in-2017/)

~~~
wenc
I understand now. My apologies for misunderstanding. Thank you for clarifying.

------
mehrdadn
> Zeta Global, whose clients include wireless carriers, generates scores using
> data points such as the number of times a customer has dialed a call center
> and whether that person has browsed a competitor’s website or searched
> certain keywords in the past few days.

Wait, so this means I dial a number and they link my identity to my browser to
tell whether I've browsed a competitor's website in the past few days? Is this
really how far tracking has come?

~~~
newnewpdro
Did you think they weren't going to leverage your phone number in other ways
when you furnished it for "improved security"?

~~~
slowhand09
local area code + 867-5309

~~~
ebullientocelot
Thanks, it's stuck in my head now.

~~~
jschwartzi
Jenny I got your number I need to make you mine Jenny don't change your
number...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTdTwcmxyo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTdTwcmxyo)

------
azinman2
“Not all customers deserve a company’s best efforts,” says Peter Fader, a
marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School who
helped popularize lifetime value scores.

I feel like this is a succinct argument against the idea to privitize
everything — there’s no accountability nor notion of “fairness” baked in
whatsoever.

~~~
bb2018
It all depends on your notion of fair.

If one percent of people call up customer service to complain about 50% of
their transactions they are clogging up the system. I only call if something
is breaking and I've exhausted all troubleshooting and automated methods.

~~~
athenot
Or they might have a legitimate case. You can't tell just by looking at
volumes.

It could be that fringe group of customers who use international credit card
numbers (but also happen to spend well).

It could be elderly consumers who consistently get bitten by a rough edge in
the UX.

It could be users who don't use English as their primary language and don't
understand a colloquialism in the interface.

~~~
sandworm101
>> It could be elderly consumers who consistently get bitten by a rough edge
in the UX.

Or the elderly customers who call just because they want someone to talk to. I
used to do some PCI compliance work and occasionally had to listen in on
customer calls to call centers (to verify procedures were being followed).
They don't want service. They want to chat. They may have some small issue
with the UI, but then they want to add something to the order. Does it come in
red? Will it match the one I ordered last week? Will the delivery people set
it up? Can I make sure it doesn't arrive on monday because I'm going to the
doctor?

~~~
skybrian
Those questions don't seem consistent with just wanting to chat. Aren't a lot
of people concerned about delivery times?

~~~
sandworm101
And those legitimate questions can be answered elsewhere. The elderly person
wanting to chat is looking for an excuse so to do. They take one issue that
justifies calling customer support and then once they have someone on the line
throw in every other little detail. Younger people, who don't like talking to
customer support, seek to limit their call to as narrow an issue as possible.
Elderly callers enjoy expanding things. Whether they will admit so or not,
what they really want is to keep the conversation going as long as possible.

~~~
gowld
Where can they be answered elsewhere, for someone who is computer illiterate
and has poor eyesight?

~~~
BenjiWiebe
That's where I make a few dollars. I'll do any computer work for my neighbors,
no matter how small, for a minimum flat rate if it's one hour or less. Its
commonly only a few minutes of work, but the (usually elderly) neighbor also
wants to talk, and I'm paid for one hour, so sure, I talk. Win-win.

------
soneil
How's this a secret?

I used to work in retail/service. Not something with data and metrics, just a
mom'n'pop. But we knew our customers. We especially knew our regulars. And you
did try not to piss off a regular.

But from this I learnt that people will try to play their 'value' as a trump
card when they want to complain. Do you know who I am, do you know how much I
spend here, I come here every day, blah blah blah. They are very quick to make
sure you know this isn't about a $4 coffee, this is about keeping them & their
business.

This isn't a secret, It's just an answer. Yes, they do know who you are.
Surprise!

~~~
pavel_lishin
In my extremely limited experience, the people pulling out the "do you know
who I am?" card are typically not regulars. They might _think_ they are, but
they're not.

I'm a regular at a few places, and I _treasure_ that status and the privilege
that comes with it, and wouldn't go trying to fuck it up unless I was prepared
to completely burn that bridge.

~~~
mbillie1
> I'm a regular at a few places, and I treasure that status and the privilege
> that comes with it, and wouldn't go trying to fuck it up unless I was
> prepared to completely burn that bridge.

Same. In fact, I tend to think that the "cost" of being a regular includes
specifically _NOT_ complaining too much or throwing your weight around. The
benefit is great and preferential service, oftentimes free stuff, and so on.

------
nobody271
Honestly, this sounds like a pretty practical feature. Just do some basic
arithmetic on key variables to let customer service know how much of that all
too prescious resource (effort) they have to spend on that call.

I think the real problem is a lot more nuanced, though. For one, even tiny
unsophisticated call centers implement painfully slow numeric menu navigation
that always gives you that extra little kick in the nuts, "please listen
carefully as our menu options have changed". Even if they haven't changed in a
hundred, or even a thousand, years. They're an industry ripe for change
because they haven't kept up with technology. To the contrary, customer
support interactions have clearly become heavily scripted and dehumanizing. I
can't imagine that industry having taken an uglier turn.

~~~
mattkrause
I don't understand where _everywhere_ does not have an option to call you
back.

If it's a toll-free number, they're paying for the call either way. It
wouldn't require extra staff or even extra time per call (start the callback
slightly before the agent is actually free). It would, however, be vastly
nicer for the customer.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Because it's cheaper for the company if you just give up and get help
elsewhere. They have barriers in place to impede your attempt to cancel your
subscription

------
parliament32
[https://outline.com/yKpH2L](https://outline.com/yKpH2L)

------
duxup
I worked in different call center environments, things may have changed but
hold time really was more a matter of dumb luck and incompetent call routing
systems more than anything else.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I wouldn't necessarily read a difference
in response as some sort of panned customer score or system necessarily.
Incompetence reigns supreme when it comes to call centers, even when someone
tries to institute a system.

I can't tell you how many times they tried to prioritize some things or people
and the result was those things or customers actually waited longer...

~~~
amingilani
Oh boy, can I vouch for this!

And sometimes, during outreach, we'd call customers and their spouses would
pick up and say something like "My husband/wife is out of town for a
week/month" but the CRM had only one button "unavailable".

They got calls like that every day or two until the customer came back home.

Also, this is getting OT, but since my country's native language isn't
English, I'd call customers who were out of town, and their wives would thank
me for not butchering their names. Apparently, my colleagues would mess up
non-stereotypical names. Calisle would become "Carlizzle", Jose would become
"Joez", "Lucian" would be "Lucky-un", etc.

In general, most off-shore support and telemarketing rigs, not the best
technology out there.

------
porlune
One might argue that having such a list constitutes bad faith. 1) It's
dishonest to not inform your customers that they are to be systematically
treated differently based on a secretly kept score. 2) Such a score kept
changes the relationship between parties after a contract has been
established, thereby negating value of the contract.

Given that good faith requires honesty, such a thing should be regarded as
unethical. It would be like if Disneyland sold you a season pass for the same
price as everyone else, but then made you wait in a longer line because
someone during that process didn't like the tone of your voice.

~~~
fjsolwmv
There's no customer service contract.

~~~
porlune
In the case I was making there would be some form of contract. It's very
unlikely that you've purchased anything recently that didn't have some kind of
contract that went along with it (e.g. an implied warranty.)

Think of this as purchasing a season pass from Disneyland, and then being
forced to wait in a longer line for every ride because someone didn't like the
tone of your voice at some point during that process.

That would change the value of what you purchased, not disclosing that is
dishonest, and, to me, a clear violation of good faith and fair dealing.

------
cutchin
The methods might be a bit more sophisticated now, but this has been going on
for many years now.

A single call center may take calls for hundreds of consumer retail products,
but if you call the 800 number for your high annual fee, high-balance card,
you will absolutely be higher in priority than people who called about their
pre-paid starter credit card. Asking for an operator won't change that.

More recently, the last 15-20 years or so, it became much more common for a
"data dip" to happen when you call, or when data is provided, so the system
can look you up and make intelligent routing decisions. If you've called
before with a particular phone number, there's a decent chance the system
already knows who you are and will prioritize you accordingly unless you
provide account numbers suggesting otherwise.

Call centers (whether in-house or farmed out) are high-volume, low-margin
enterprises. Everyone is frustrated dealing with them, and they prioritize
reducing that frustration for high-value customers. It's definitely unfair at
times (an errant $500 charge that would be trivial for someone rich could be
devastating for someone poor, but the rich person's call will be taken first)
but that's just how the business is.

------
mac-chaffee
I think I'd be more comfortable with customer scores if there's more
"Access/Participation"[1]. Being able to see my scores, see how they're
calculated, and dispute them would at least help with trust and preventing
mistakes.

[1]: "Access as defined in the Fair Information Practice Principles includes
not only a consumer's ability to view the data collected, but also to verify
and contest its accuracy. This access must be inexpensive and timely in order
to be useful to the consumer"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTC_fair_information_practice#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTC_fair_information_practice#Principles)

------
anoncoward111
I work in customer service. We don't have scores but we have detailed notes on
every past interaction.

I don't keep anyone on hold long because I don't like dealing with people who
get angry about that stuff,

But, lots of my colleagues put people on hold out of spite.

------
vxNsr
> _Your call will be handled in the order it was received_

Seems you can now use this as a canary for companies using CLV.

If you don't hear it you better be rich.

------
John_KZ
Last month I canceled my account application when I realized my new bank would
not provide support to unathenticated users.

By this I mean you really couldn't get hold of anyone without providing a
credit card number. Which is not only invading privacy and creating customers
castes, but it's also stupid since I didn't have a credit/debit card yet.

After loudly swearing at the machine, either a quality control person or an
emotion identification algorithm forwarded my call to a support worker. I
simply hanged up and called the local branch, asking them to cancel my
application.

I'm not going to support this kind of businesses. However in the case of
monopolies and oligopolies legislation is needed to assure retail customers
are treated the same regardless of the race, age, postal code and spending
figures unless there are clear terms dictating that higher spenders get better
support (ie, providing better support as a paid service and/or having clear
rules about prioritization).

------
hiei
At least for my phone provider, you can hit 0 about 6-7 times after the
automated responses and be directly sent to a live agent.

~~~
mszcz
I use another method. I select all the options in the automated system that
indicate that I want to buy stuff from them. Suddenly I get connected to a
live person almost immediately ;)

~~~
cortesoft
But then when you ask for help they transfer you back to hold...

~~~
Scoundreller
Sometimes “sales” can’t transfer calls internationally and routes you to the
domestic support.

~~~
mszcz
True, _sometimes_ they can't.

------
paulie_a
I've actually had success with simply emailing a company stating the issue and
politely stating my frustrations with their phone menu. Always be polite with
CSRs obviously as a decent human being.

On a side note I wish the phrase "our menu options have recently changed"
would go away. no they haven't, and no there is not a higher than normal call
volume.

Just firing off an email is worth attempting, one time I actually used the
phrase "give me a holler" and got a call back the next morning. The problem
was immediately taken care of.

Button mashing used to work but now the systems aggressively hang up on you.
And I have no idea why I am prompted to enter account details just to be asked
for the same info, apparently the systems are capable of playing ads every 15
seconds, but can't transfer info.

------
uptownfunk
I’m taking a probability models class at Wharton from Prof Fader (quoted in
the article).. just have to say, it’s been an epic class, and it’s nice to see
something like probability (and not the overhyped AI/ML) actually used for
something so applicable in industry.

------
8bitsrule
Huh. WSJ site put me 'on hold' becuz I'm not a subscriber.

This tactic seems a bit self-defeating in the end. Keep me on hold for over 15
minutes (never mind the music and mechanical apologies ... what a farce) and I
_guarantee_ you have _lost_ a customer. (If I have _any_ recourse, and I
_will_ assiduously seek one).

Modern business attitudes that don't strive to welcome _all_ customers are,
IMO, on death row. Perhaps they're too big to succeed. (Hello? Sears?) OTOH,
businesses that welcomed my trade (or that great rarity, welcomed me by name!)
have enjoyed steady business for decades. No doubt the revolution will fix
that.

------
lgats
[https://www.fullwsj.com/articles/on-hold-for-45-minutes-
it-m...](https://www.fullwsj.com/articles/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-might-be-
your-secret-customer-score-1541084656)

------
throw2016
It will be difficult for engineers to wash their hands off this level of
surveillance, as they are building it.

All the dissent is coming from other places, we have not had any protests,
resignations or even leaks to warn the public about the level of surveillance
underway.

This betrays an indifference even support among engineers of invasive
surveillance that others find abhorrent.

There is a sharp contrast between the unequivocal indignation and outrage
similar stories generate on other countries as a reflection of something
greater while here they seem to dissipate into a factoid with no larger
implications.

------
blakesterz
"Marital status is often factored in, with some companies assuming that
singles are better customers, and others, the opposite. Age also is a common
input, potentially penalizing older people because of their shorter projected
lifespans."

Odd paragraph... It seems like those things could go either way depending on
the company. I'm sure we could all list companies that would bend over for old
married people as much as young single people.

~~~
YokoZar
That's exactly what the line says though. Some companies assume singles are
better customers, and others, the opposite.

~~~
mattkrause
I think the point is that "assume" is a weird word: it is probably _true_ , in
a statistical sense, that married couples are more valuable to some companies,
and less to others, and their models reflect that.

No one is saying "eh, screw the single people/happy couples" and tweaking the
scores in some ad hoc way.

------
ggm
Serious question: google has no helpdesk at the consumer level and a very
fractured one in corporate space. (I have GPC. AdWords and some other
relationships for work aside from my personal google id so I do believe I know
something of what I write, because I've seen at least two or three of the many
sides of their product space beyond consumer ones)

Does anyone believe they could run some kind of helpdesk at consumer scale FOR
PROFIT?

~~~
inetknght
Yes absolutely. Why do you think there's so many tech support fraud? Why do
you think Geek Squad is a thing?

~~~
ggm
So.. if there's a profitable business here, why isn't google running helpdesk
over its consumer products? They monetise as good as the next hegemon, why not
this?

~~~
Godel_unicode
They do, it's called Google One and it comes with Drive.

"""Experts, one tap away Get direct access to people who speak fluent Google.
If you need help with our products and services, our team of experts is here
for you. ""'

[https://one.google.com/about](https://one.google.com/about)

------
IshKebab
I find it hard to believe most call centres have sophisticated tracking
systems when they can't even manage a basic "You are number X in the queue.
The estimated wait time is X minutes." Or how about "If you would like us to
call you back, press 1". I've had that from about 2 call centres in my life
total (one was Google, can't remember the other).

Fancy tracking linked to wait times? Please.

~~~
BenjiWiebe
Newegg? They have the callback system, as well as estimated wait and # in
line.

------
vkou
And here I thought it was because every customer service line is experiencing
a 'high volume of callers' 24/7.

------
crb002
That is an ADA lawsuit waiting to happen.

~~~
everybodyknows
Following up on this thought, are health insurers already using such
techniques to drive out unprofitable customers -- despite government
regulations that they require coverage?

California stats suggest "yes", and for about 4 years now:

[https://wpso.dmhc.ca.gov/dashboard/ComplaintsIMRs.aspx](https://wpso.dmhc.ca.gov/dashboard/ComplaintsIMRs.aspx)

------
aviv
We've implemented this for companies in the past - bumping callers to the
front of the line based on the caller ID (or input of some other data by
customer) and matching customer profile or CRM record tracking customer spend,
MRC, etc. It's pretty standard practice.

------
tomrod
Thus seems to ring true, that what you don't pay in price you often pay in
time or comfort.

------
ocdtrekkie
This doesn't surprise me much. I probably lose a lot of points for only buying
deeply discounted items. (I'm often happy to wait for a $36.99 Blu-ray set to
hit $12.99 to buy it.)

------
nraynaud
Funny I spent one and a half hour to open a bank account in person 2 days ago.
Everything was freaking slow in the bank too.

------
amysox
"shibboleet"

[https://xkcd.com/806/](https://xkcd.com/806/)

------
pluma
"Silly Europeans. Regulations for privacy and data ownership are government
overreach and anti-market.

"Oh no."

------
LiterallyDoge
This is a great argument for the intangible value of the right to individual
privacy.

~~~
LanceH
You have every right to individual privacy. Once you yield it you don't have a
right to make other people pretend they don't remember you.

~~~
jimmaswell
Unless you live in the EU apparently. Not that I think it's right.

~~~
LanceH
It's not really a right. It's a law that someone "can't". There really is a
big difference.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but the deliberate abuse of terminology undermines
the discussion of real rights.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Is life a right?

------
browsercoin
so when my bank put me on hold for 30 minutes, it means they think im a
peasant?

~~~
lotsofpulp
All the big banks have a better level of service for higher net worth clients.
BoA Platinum Honors, Chase Private Client, etc.

------
xtiansimon
Paywalled article :(

------
monochromatic
I wish there were a rule against posting paywalled content here.

~~~
shittyadmin
Yeah - reality is even if I think there's quality journalism worth paying for,
subscriptions to those sources often cost $10/mo+, odds are I'm not going to
pay for all of them, I'm especially not going to pay for it when it's an
article I'm tangentially interested in.

Yet participation in some interesting discussions often hinges on it.

So here I am, pirating more and more of my news... you'd think someone would
have managed to fix this by now. If the record labels and movie studios could
pull it off, I'd almost think it'd be easier for news people to do so as
getting news for free has long been an expectation on the internet.

~~~
eisa01
You can read WSJ articles for 49 cents at Blendle, no need to bypass with
Outline: [https://blendle.com/i/wsj-com/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-
migh...](https://blendle.com/i/wsj-com/on-hold-for-45-minutes-it-might-be-
your-secret-customer-score/bnl-
wsj-20181101-SB10356030888037374631904584524242419670598)

~~~
shittyadmin
Yikes, that gives me some major sticker shock.

I like where they're going, seems like they've got a lot of papers signed up
which is great, but I was hoping for more of a subscription model which would
allow me to read as I please rather than spending on a per-article basis.

I'd have to be deeply interested in the content to pay that price.

The way the movie and music industries largely beat piracy was by getting good
subscription models - I'm hoping we'll see the same here too.

~~~
eisa01
If you don't think the article is worth it, you can get a refund with one
click at least. NY Times articles are 19 cents.

Yes, a subscription model would be useful. Blendle has that in the Netherlands
to my knowledge.

------
cabaalis
I don't see what the big deal is? Unless your contract with a another group of
individuals says that group will serve you within X amount of time when
calling with a problem, you're SOL.

Lots of talk on here about government and rights and other stuff when it's
just that you're paying for a service, and you're either served or you're not.
Take your money elsewhere. Oh, they're a monopoly? Think of how to improve and
disrupt. I'm sure there used to be horsedrawn carriage monopolies also.

