
Goodbye Sweden - joegreen
http://swedenreport.org/2015/06/02/goodbye-sweden/
======
leonk
Nationalism, xenophobia, and even fascism seems to be on the rise in Sweden -
as it is in the rest of Europe. (I'm basing this solely on media coverage and
personal observation.)

Posts like this show a poor attempt, with entirely subjective observations, to
justify some of these attitudes. What's particularly scary is how the poster
tries to disguise his views with a belief in socialist politics.

~~~
superplussed
"The once homogenous population has been forever altered by a rapid and
massive addition of people from vastly different cultures and value-systems.
26,8% of the population is now foreign-born or with at least one foreign-born
parent, and the national census bureau estimates that some 150 000 per year
will arrive to the country of just 9,8 million residents.

There simply is no possible way to absorb and assimilate such volumes of
people, period. Then you are merely creating ethnic enclaves, which due to
incompatible language, culture and job skills become ghettos, which in turns
brews crime, misery and extremism. Once the inflow has exceeded the capacity
for absorbtion, further immigration only makes the problem worse. "

I don't know the author, but this sounds like it belongs in a Pegida handbook.

~~~
sfjailbird
People here in Scandinavia are very worried because their cozy little village
of a region is being infused with massively different cultures.

Can't really blame them, and to be sure crime and social costs are higher as a
result of immigration. That said, there is every reason to believe that these
effects will diminish over time as immigrants start to integrate, even some
beneficial effects are already showing.

The problem is that 'integration' takes generations, and a very large influx
jeopardizes this process. So the adverse effects remain very visible and most
people are too short-sighted to take the long view. At the same time Europeans
are so hypersensitive about 'racism' that the topic can't even be discussed in
polite company (which leaves it to actual racists to even talk about the
issues).

~~~
_delirium
Here in Denmark, in my opinion much of the worry is not based on first-hand
experience with actual immigrants who have moved to your town and are not
integrating well, but rather with a more generalized worry that the culture in
some sense is threatened. That's harder to solve with practical measures like
integration assistance, because it's not based on specific daily problems but
more general ideological worldviews.

If anything it seems anti-correlated with presence of real live immigrants.
The largest group of immigrants to Denmark go to Copenhagen. But Copenhagen
isn't where you find the strongest anti-immigrant sentiment, as you'd expect
if anti-immigrant sentiment were caused by contact with immigrants. Such
sentiment isn't absent, but Copenhageners are comparatively okay with
immigration and the majority take moderate views, focused on practical issues
like programs to improve integration. The strongest worries and the more
"militant" style of anti-immigrant politics comes from rural and small-town
areas which do not really see large-scale immigration.

I believe this is also the case in a number of other European countries, for
example in Austria and Switzerland, where immigrants go mainly to the cities,
but anti-immigrant sentiment is concentrated in the rural areas and small
towns. Some of this probably has nothing to do with immigration _per se_ but
is a result of preexisting cultural splits between cosmopolitan, liberally
oriented cities, and more conservative countrysides (a 19th-century sort of
romantic nationalism is very strong in rural Scandinavia).

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
That is absolutely correct. But Switzerland has a different kind of
immigration - its mostly highly skilled workers, working in IT or as doctors,
and some lower skilled labour in the hospitality industry. The total amount is
very high though (20%+), which makes people uncomfortable - and understandably
so.

The situation in Sweden is a bit different though. Many of them are people
that have no chance of finding a job in the Swedish market, which leads to
crime, ghettos and separated societies. Its essentially mis-managed on a
political level. This will only lead to resentment, the rise of right-wing
parties and social problems. I don't think this is a desirable outcome for
either the immigrants nor for Sweden as a society.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
[http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/immigration-policy_-in-
switzerla...](http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/immigration-policy_-in-switzerland-
immigration-doesn-t-only-create-winners-/37635550) :

> At the end of 2012 there were 1.87 million foreigners in Switzerland, the
> equivalent of nearly 23.3% of a total population that has passed the
> 8-million mark. In addition, more than 270,000 cross-border workers hold a
> job in Switzerland.

I bet that most of the permanent residents and virtually all of the seasonal
workers are in the low-skill category.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
No need to guess. Quote [0]: "The admission of people from non-EU/EFTA
countries is regulated by the Foreign Nationals Act, and is limited to skilled
workers who are urgently required and are likely to integrate successfully in
the long term."

And the previously non-regulated EU residents are from a more similar cultural
background, so there is a qualitative difference from the situation in Sweden.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Switzerland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Switzerland)

------
cupofjoakim
Swede here – I don't agree with this post. He does bring up some very good
point about the real estate situation though.

I do, however, think that it's wrong to say that Stefan Löfven is a 'corrupt
yokel'. He's been in a very hard situation politically, where he's been forced
to rule as a minority. The opposition is doing everything they can to make
sure that he looks incompetent as a leader, as it's basically ensuring their
next election victory. He's only been in office since september, so it's not
actually that weird that not too much has been done.

The whole post is filled with overstatements like this – and I'm kind of
amused about the idea of escaping sweden because it left some of it's
socialist ideals in the 60's to go to a country who despises socialism.

~~~
mkohlmyr
They don't really have to try very hard. He comes across as deeply incompetent
most chances he gets imho, he's been especially embarrassing in international
circumstances. He should have gone the way of Juholt, if not for timing and a
lack of decent alternatives.

I left Sweden 5 years ago and I more or less agree with the post. It seems to
have some undertones i don't entirely appreciate but on the whole it should
serve as a necessary reality check if taken with a pinch of salt. It brings up
many points that are worth discussing at length but which are essentially
verboten in Swedish society. Even if it does overstate or sensationalize
somewhat.

I doubt he is leaving specifically because it has abandoned some socialist
ideals. For me it has more to do with not wanting to be part of the mass
delusion, not wanting to constantly fit your opinions to an ever narrowing
hallway of acceptable ideas and speech (not because they couldn't but because
they shouldn't have to). At least when you don't live there you don't have to
see and live it day in and day out. If anything I have grown more fond of
Sweden and the ideals it represents since moving, because I am not forced to
come to terms with its realities on a daily basis.

~~~
tjogin
Another Swede, I agree with a lot of the points, especially how the current
government can't help but make themselves look foolish.

But, free health care, free education, almost no religious zealots what so
ever, zero religious impact on lawmaking, a relatively inclusive society, etc,
makes Sweden one of the better places to live in the world, imho. Obviously,
I'm biased.

I too find it rather weird that someone who yearns for more socialism would
move from Sweden to the US. :)

------
eivarv
The same old xenophobe right-wing populist rhetoric we hear in Norway as well
(though Sweden has admittedly met with larger issues than us).

    
    
        "Yes, there was a heavy blanket of socialism and collectivist values covering everything, but there was a core of pragmatism beneath the redness."
    

Redness? Come on.

------
holgersindbaek
Dane here... we look at Sweden and sigh. The once prosperous and sensible
country seems to have lost it. It's all about being "good" for other peoples
money and it seems like there's a sort of self-hatred amongst ethnic Swedes.
If you want to see the pinnacle of multiculturalism, feast your eyes on
Sweden. I'll give it 10-20 years and then I think we will have a thorough
breakdown in Swedish.

~~~
fyrus
Swede here. You nailed it.

~~~
cpach
LOL. Did you sign up here just to say that?

------
karmazeroed
There are valid points in this post, eg
[http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-diverse-
cities-...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-diverse-cities-are-
often-the-most-segregated/)

I thought he could almost be talking about London. Diversity is not
integration. Lack of integration creates polarisation. A single example:
different nationalities have different levels of education, therefore
different incomes, therefore different social status, and different
accommodation budgets, therefore geographic limitations, and common solutions.
In my area, watching east africans try to steal phones off tables in coffee
shops is so run of the mill it's boring. Same nationalities, same activities -
community effects. Some places in London try to resolve such a situation by
mixing up affordable housing with higher-income housing. The situation is then
exacerbated, as the higher income people then have to live with what is in
their culture unpleasant behaviour. Of course, everything just gets dismissed
as racism, when it's in fact about culture, not race, and not applicable to
all cultures. The dismissal resolves nothing. If we were talking about moving
into the amazon, people would be outraged at the displacement of the locals,
but somehow western cultures don't matter, or some sort of penance has to be
paid for sins of some previous generations. Until the liberals learn to have a
discussion instead of flippant dismissals and name calling, nothing will be
resolved, and europe's moving to the right shows that their is something that
needs to be resolved.

~~~
ajmurmann
I have to agree. I am very concerned by both what's happening in Europe and by
concerns being dismissed as racism or xenophobia. I am glad there are others
who have a level headed view of this. It's really hard to talk about this
topic, because so much of the associated vocabulary has been taken over by
actual racists in the past and sets off all kinds of alarm bells.

------
brisance
As a Singaporean, I laugh at these low immigration numbers. 150K per year out
of 9.8 million residents, that's a drop in the ocean.

According to the government, the total population of Singapore is 5.26M. Out
of this, 3.27M are citizens, with 540K Permanent Residents and 1.46M non-
residents. In other words, about 2M or 38% of the population were not born in
Singapore.[1] Note that this is a conservative estimate since an immigrant can
become a Singapore Citizen after 2 years as a Permanent Resident.

And yes, obviously there is great concern because a lot of foreigners do not
assimilate well either.[2]

[1] [http://population.sg/resources/population-
composition/](http://population.sg/resources/population-composition/) [2]
[http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-
singapor...](http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/rapid-growth-singapores-
immigrant-population-brings-policy-challenges/)

~~~
belorn
So that we are talking about the same thing, from where is the immigration
coming from? Is it primarily neighboring countries with similar language,
culture, and religion, or is it like Sweden where commonality in culture is
the exception rather than the norm?

~~~
brisance
As of 2014, about 55% are from other South-East Asian countries. But the
government has a policy of maintaining a stable "ethnic mix" which means that
there are now a lot of mainland Chinese. And while I'm also Chinese by
ethnicity, you can ask other ethnic Chinese from Hong Kong, Taiwan or Malaysia
what they think about the nouveau riche from China. :)

Source:
[http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/homepage/highlights/populat...](http://www.nptd.gov.sg/portals/0/homepage/highlights/population-
in-brief-2014.pdf)

------
rehtona
I think some personality types are just prone to the attitude that
everything's turning to shit. The same people that feel that the world is less
safe today while statistics show the opposite. That doesn't mean he doesn't
have some good points. Personally I'm particularly worried about the schooling
system. The strain of immigration may be real, I don't know if it will be a
net positive or negative in the end. To be safe I would prefer a more modest
immigration policy.

I think Sweden is following a larger trend in the west of a more polarizing
society with higher income inequality and the slashing of the social safety
net. I think globalization and new technology is to blame for this, not naive
politicians.

------
etiam
Hyperbole. Some of the concerns are quite real but please don't mistake this
for an accurate or balanced statement.

~~~
vesinisa
Totally agree. This is essentially a political rant about the politics of
Sweden and as such pretty exaggarating. I don't quite understand why it's
trending on HN.

~~~
topynate
(meta) Anything that gets more comments than votes is known to be penalised by
the HN ranking algo. Any highly political post like this tends to get more
comments than votes, so most of the time it sinks. But, this article is about
Sweden, which is outside of most readers' personal experience, so while people
still upvote it from agreement with its politics, they don't jump in and start
debating it quite so much.

Eventually enough people will flag it or start commenting that it'll drop
anyway (a mistake in the algorithm if you ask me, as it makes flags 'super-
downvotes') but in the mean time...

------
mattlutze
_Now, to be clear, it is my opinion that modest immigration is healthy for
society and beneficial for trade, cultural development and so forth.
Protectionism as a concept is counter-productive, while free trade and the
ability for skilled labor to go where they’re in demand is beneficial for
everyone._

 _Having said that, what Sweden is doing is something completely different.
The once homogenous population has been forever altered by a rapid and massive
addition of people from vastly different cultures and value-systems._

tl;dr: Protectionism is bad. Sweden should be protectionist and homogenous.

... if the rest of the article is like this I'm not sure of the value of it.

------
allendoerfer
The EU asylum system [0] is currently debated and fairness will be improved.
It is not an easy task, considering the UK threatening to leave, but Sweden
and Italy are treated unfairly by their partners here.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation)

~~~
nazgob
This is an issue for Italy but not for Sweden. Sweden is not a border state.

------
Pandabob
Funny how, as a Finn, the more international vibe of Sweden is one of the main
reasons why I'm planning on immigrating there after graduation.

------
mahouse
Sweden is the best example of what happens when you have a completely liberal
society. And, of course, it's bleeding to lots of places. And if you call them
out, you are called racist.

~~~
Trufa
Completely liberal?? Drinking is extremely expensive and regulated, drugs are
strictly forbidden.

It's full of subsidies and welfare in many aspects of life and society, not
sure what you're talking about.

It's very liberal in some senses, but calling it a completely liberal society
is silly.

~~~
toyg
He's talking right-wing American English, where "liberal" strongly overlaps
with "communist/socialist".

Americans are fond of reverting long-standing European political conventions
"just because". Historical Liberalism was all about free trade and low taxes?
Let's use the term for the party that supports higher taxes and regulations.
Red is for socialists, blue for conservatives? Let's swap them! How fun!

(Not that it matters anyway, the entire European discourse is a million miles
to the left of anything being discussed in the Land of the Free. The world is
so weird.)

~~~
ajmurmann
The use of the word "liberal" in the US drove me nuts the first few months I
lived in the US. I used to be identify myself as a "Liberal" in Germany and
constantly felt misrepresented when people were talking about "liberals" in
the US. Weird enough the term that comes closest to what I understand as
European liberalism is libertarianism. So we had to throw in a syllable to
make up for the word that's being used everywhere else having been hijacked. I
wonder if some of this is fallout from the insane two party system.

------
Paul_S
I don't agree with the author on almost anything but I wholeheartedly agree
that voting with your feet is the only type of voting that brings immediate
results.

Voting with your feet > voting with your wallet > voting though a ballot box
every 5 years (you should still do that though as it costs you nothing!)

------
Numberwang
I blame aftonbladet.se for 80% of the crap going on in Sweden at the moment.
They really have made a huge difference to the worse of the mental health of
the nation.

~~~
Profan
80% seems a bit on the heavy side, but I'll agree that them and Expressen are
just cannons of useless vitriol.

------
cyphunk
you had me at _" Jihadist Trojan horses are flowing through the porous
border"_

what a pile of crap

------
spanishcow
I didn't knew that ycombinator allowed such xenophobic views on their site.
This is an example of some guy that thinks that only the pure swedish people
is to be trusted.

I'm horrified at what Hacker News can become...

~~~
cyphunk
While I agree the article is trash I also think having it posted on HN
provides value as the comments and reaction show clearly how unwelcome
xenophobia is.

~~~
PopeOfNope
All it's shown me is how politically biased the readership here is.

------
bebna
Looks like a case of "never meet your heroes".

------
norswap
This reads exactly like Atlas Shrugged, complete with politicians bankrupting
the system, unwarranted charity, non-objective scholars and a collapsing
railroad system.

I don't know of the situation in Sweden, but I kept wondering if the post was
satire. It seemed too one-sided to be totally honest.

And then things like "most of the west had a housing crash" don't increase
your confidence in the writing.

------
mhomde
Everyone has their own view and cling to their reality with confirmation bias
and cherry picking. The optimists say we'll work out any problems, this is a
transition period, the complainers are exaggerating and "everything's fine
where I live" The pessimists will say things are only getting worse and that
the optimists are ignoring real problems.

I live in Stockholm and try very hard to have a nuanced view. Unfortunately,
more and more, I see the pessimists view. It isn't as bad as the worst
pessimists are saying, but it's also far from as good as the optimists are
claiming. Sweden is a 2/3 parts tenderizing frog that's ignoring that the
temperature is rising and 1/3 that's boiling.

If we see past the actual issues, which are complex and multifaceted, there's
a number of trends in Sweden that's deeply disturbing

1) The level of discourse is only getting worse and more polarized. Populism,
emotions and who can make most noise wins over any rational nuanced debate.

2) The quality of politicians are becoming more corrupt and separated from
their voters, while resorting to pandering to whatever gives them votes, money
and power. It's frightening to see the lack of competence in any party right
now.

3) A naive sense of security and refusal of many Swedes to believe things are
getting worse and that we are facing real problems. We don't seem to value
what we always had and can't conceive we'll ever lose it. Even though
education, pensions and care is going down the drain and crime rates rapidly
rising.

Someone will twist or focus on some minor facet to state that's not the case
at all. Everyone will like and tweet that article clinging to the feeling that
we're still great.

4) Inability to treat root causes rather than symptoms.

5) A toxic media climate dominated by "feel good" articles and vicious attacks
on any dissidents.

6) Exaggerating and focusing on the wrong topics. We can have a turbulent
feminist debate in all the newspapers about manspreading in the subway, while
ignoring issues like cultural violence against women, because it isn't
"political correct" to even discuss that topic.

Sweden's problems are not only Sweden's... but symptomatic of the problems
we're facing in general in Europe and the world: Inability to deal with
rampant complexity and globalization, a financial system predicated on
unsustainable expansion, booming population and third-world poverty meeting
first world abundance.

We just want to feel like good people in a world where it's more and more
everyone for themselves... Just saying all this makes me depressed, think I'll
go back to believing we're awesome.

------
vasilipupkin
"crumbling rail system"? Going to Sweden on vacation. Please tell me it's BS
:)

~~~
Trufa
Seriously, Sweden is an amazing country, so beautiful. People are so welcoming
there, it's incredibly safe and easy to go around.

Everybody speaks English and is willing to help.

Some swedes that were mingling with some of this horrible immigrants the
blogger was talking about where kind enough, to invite me to their place to
sleep.

Don't guide yourself by anything on this article, I'm surprised it got so far.

Go to Sweden and enjoy that amazing country.

------
megalodon
Surreptitiously racist and full of prejudice. Thank you for leaving our
country.

------
scdoshi
the xenophobia in this rant basically amounts to "sweden for swedes", but it's
more striking when you read this on the About page:

 _Please note that I enforce a zero-tolerance policy towards racism, violence
and extremist comments.

Judging other people by the color of their skin is manifestly absurd. So
please don’t submit such comments here_

Edit: removed some sarcasm

~~~
veeti
Where is he "judging people by the color of their skin"? Exactly what is
xenophobic in this post?

~~~
rmxt
Did you miss these lines?

"Jihadist Trojan horses are flowing through the porous border along with the
tens of thousands ID-less refugees. But what makes me the most pessimistic
about Sweden’s future is how the social fabric itself has been undermined."

If the "social fabric" of a country amounts to it's prior ethnic homogeneity,
then decrying it's unraveling amounts to being scared of people coming from
the outside. People which, in the case of Sweden, also tend to have a darker
skin tone than the average citizen 50 years ago. This, in conjunction with the
suggestion that Muslim immigrants tend to be "Jihadist Trojan horses" makes it
a very thinly veiled Islamophobic piece.

~~~
draugadrotten
> "Jihadist Trojan horses are flowing through the porous border along with the
> tens of thousands ID-less refugees.

It is true that 9 out of 10 that applies for Asylum in Sweden have no ID.

Source: [http://www.svd.se/nio-av-tio-saknar-id-
handling](http://www.svd.se/nio-av-tio-saknar-id-handling)

~~~
rmxt
Nope, that's a willful misreading:

"Statistik från årsredovisningen som släpps i dag visar att endast tio procent
initialt har godkända id-handlingar som godkänds av verket."

Only 10% had ID which were approved _on the first go around_. It's not clear
what portion of the 90% had "no ID" and what portion merely had insufficient
ID on their first attempt. Your reading would make it seem like ALL of these
immigrants are shady characters out of a cartoon, trying to fake their way
into the country.

~~~
saiya-jin
I wouldn't be surprised if many of them threw IDs away, so they can claim they
are coming from war regions and seek asylum, instead of being just another
part of economic migration (like many people from north Africa/middle east
actively try).

I don't blame them, if I would be so desperate, this would be a logical step.
The big moral question that opinions differ so much on is: should we in Europe
try to help all of them at all costs, even if millions will come?

Personally, I wouldn't mind sharing my resources, if the person I share it
with will respect rules I set and learn to speak the language I speak. If not,
goodbye.

~~~
rmxt
To be trite and cliche: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Your claims make a superficially plausible story, but if you are going to base
your moral decisions on something, basing them on these unsubstantiated claims
is circular reasoning.

Why do you personally get to set the rules? Vote for people that support the
rules that you believe in, but thinking that you can play cultural
imperialist, dictating how people should act and what language they should
speak, is frankly egotistical.

------
ExpiredLink
Where is he emigrating to?

~~~
rehtona
A country without any problems or immigrants: the USA!

~~~
happyscrappy
Yeah, wait until he finds out there are 12 million undocumented immigrants.

------
cpach
This article is not relevant for HN. Flagged.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
As evidenced by the 100 comments by interested HNers?

~~~
cpach
As per the guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Did this article really gratify your intellectual curiosity?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
First criterion, front and center on that page:

    
    
       "Anything that good hackers would find interesting"

~~~
cpach
Being a HN user for over seven years, I’m very aware of that criterion. IMO
most political discussions is a detriment to this site. But obviously there
hasn’t been enough user flags to kill this submission. Too bad!

Edit:

BTW, you didn’t answer my question :-/

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Doesn't matter what I like; if we flagged every article somebody didn't like,
there'd be no HN.

------
Dewie3
I couldn't manage to find one single positive article in this _report_ [1]. So
it's good for they that they got the opportunity to move (apparently they
moved back for family reasons).

[1] Really? Not even an article about a particularly delicious meal of
köttbullar?

