
For Men Who Hate Talking on the Phone, Games Keep Friendships Alive - wallflower
https://kotaku.com/for-men-who-hate-talking-on-the-phone-games-keep-frien-1835277944
======
majos
As for many things, there's a nice Knausgaard quote about this:

> That’s what distance does; when the time between conversations gets longer,
> intimacy diminishes, the little things connected to one’s daily life lose
> their place, it seems odd to talk about a shirt you just bought or to
> mention you’re thinking of leaving the dishes until morning when you haven’t
> spoken to a person for two weeks or a month, that absence would seem instead
> to call for more important topics, and once they begin to determine the
> conversation there’s no turning back, because then it’s two diplomats
> exchanging information about their respective realms in a conversation that
> needs to be started up from scratch, in a sense, every time, which gradually
> becomes tedious, and eventually it’s easier not to bother phoning at all, in
> which case it’s even harder the next time, and then suddenly it’s been half
> a year of silence.

I'm a guy and I like phone calls to friends, but I let them wander organically
with little pressure. Of course, my friends and I have lives where it's not a
big deal to set aside an hour or two for meandering conversation, and not
everybody does. But wandering conversation is such a high-utility activity for
me that I'm happy to do so. At any rate, it beats watching Netflix or whatever
by a mile -- I remain confused by how many people say they have no time for
friends but also consume a _bunch_ of solo entertainment. I guess if your free
time comes in unpredictably scheduled half hour blocks it might simultaneously
be hard to plan hangouts and easy to watch TV, but I don't think most people
have that kind of life, outside of maybe certain sets of parents of young
children?

~~~
agumonkey
The quote is very interesting but I'd add something. Most of our dreads
started after teenagehood, when social bonding was of high importance. Yet it
often becomes a diplomatic effort, often void of real emotion. Real is too
strong, but it's not vibrant nor fun most of the time. It's smalltalk. And we
keep at it because as an adult it's deemed very important, even though,
younger, relationships didn't center around mild chat, it was about having
fun, cracking jokes, sharing a childish venture, getting something happy about
the interaction.

ps: ah well, universe is poking fun at me, a very old friend just sent me a
text after many months :)

~~~
roymurdock
Call them back!

~~~
agumonkey
I texted right away, with jokes.

------
momokoko
To maintain relationships as an adult you need regularly scheduled recurring
events. Whether its a cookout every other Sunday, a Friday happy hour,
Thursday night online gaming, or anything really.

But it must be a recurring event that does not need to be planned each time,
but not going is still considered something you are cancelling.

This was common knowledge until we had a generation will cell phones which
greatly reduced the amount of informal regularly scheduled events. In large
part because coordination is not nearly as difficult so there is less push to
just set something up that occurs once every two weeks as opposed to jus doing
it last minute via group chat.

~~~
neilv
Or weekly/frequent religious community gatherings.

People who aren't familiar with that might not appreciate the community
aspect.

For example, for some flavor of American Catholics, much of a normal Sunday
can be blown (as far as the kids are concerned) by dressing up in Sunday best
clothes, attending the big folk music mass, the chatter as people spill out of
the church and maybe also talk with the priest out back after the procession
out, followed by hours of "coffee and donuts" socializing in the parish's
school cafeteria or meeting hall.

I'm not that kind of religious, but that's one way to find and maintain
friendships, as well as sense of community and mutual support.

~~~
mises
Can second. I grew up in a Protestant Church like this, and it's a great
community. Nice and welcoming people are sometimes rare these days.

I can't help but think that it's just not "cool" to be religious. It's seen as
things our parents did, and every one wants to be an edgy atheist. For better
or for worse, humans drew community from their churches (or other religious
institutions) for a very long time. Churches were uniquely well-suited to
"scale" with modern life and urbanization, especially compared to other
traditional communities. I'm not saying you have to be any specific religion;
I'm guessing many other religions are welcoming as well. But pick something
where you can find a community of friendly people _who share your values_
(this is possibly most important).

Edit: I see that the parent comment has now felt compelled to apologize for
suggesting that religion could be a good thing. That's pretty sad. Just
because you don't believe in God doesn't mean it can't be a helpful thing for
others. Quite frankly, I also believe it's helpful for mental health.
Believing that when you die you will just disappear is a rather depressing
worldview, and I know people with serious health issues who are atheists and
are struggling with that. Same with many aging people. On the other hand,
being able to "offer something up to God" can be quite cathartic and an
excellent way to relive stress.

Priests were the therapists of olden days.

Edit 2: For further clarification, here's my response to those who say "just
gather like-minded people". It's much harder to do that without religion. The
best definition of religion I ever heard was "an ideology that provides a
comprehensive worldview". In other words, something that shapes your
perspective on and understanding of every thing else. It is not easy to find
such a group of people who share such basic understandings and values without
the use of religion.

~~~
cheerlessbog
Religion combines two things and some people only want one: opportunity to
socialize and build friendships with people who share values; and a belief in
supernatural actors.

~~~
pessimizer
I think the problem with this is that one of those values has to be to
consistently attend the meeting. Supernaturalism offers this. Video games rely
on consistently being entertained by video games; once it's not fun, you can
just leave.

------
JeffL
I was playing a Moba with my brother almost every day, talking on voice while
we played. I had to quit because the Moba was really sucking up all my drive
and free time, but after quitting, I really missed talking with my brother. I
started playing again for that reason, but had to quit again, because in the
year and a half I was playing that game, I really got nothing done other than
have lots of fun and piss off my wife. Of course I never call my brother on
the phone otherwise, I have no reason to. I have a really hard time finding a
middle ground, but the social aspect of gaming is definitely one of the strong
positives for me.

~~~
ducttape12
Why not agree to play once or twice a week? For example, every Monday night,
you two jump on for a few hours and play and catch up?

Also, what do you mean you got nothing done? You bonded with your brother.
That seems pretty valuable to me!

~~~
watwut
I am not him, but for me "nothing done" in similar situation meant that I did
not learned new programming related things despite needing to, did not
contributed to household chores as much as I should, deteriorated/neglected
relationships with people actually around me and nearby, personal projects did
not moved and stuff I was supposed to organize was not organized.

A lot of these games are designed in a way that makes them less fun when
played only a little. Or you become a drag on the team. There are also long
term quests and you need to be present to participate.

An explocite agreement on playing twice a week breaks "plausible deniality"
here. For some reason it is hard to admit that we are doing it for social
reasons. It would be like calling brother on the phone directly - the same
block preventing you one action prevents the other.

~~~
wlesieutre
_> A lot of these games are designed in a way that makes them less fun when
played only a little. Or you become a drag on the team. There are also long
term quests and you need to be present to participate._

I think the solution to this is to find games that don’t do that

~~~
watwut
I agree, absolutely. Clash royale and other mobile ganes was that solution for
me. The problem is when you joined to be with people (brother in this case),
but don't want to admit it out loud or that person primary is there for game.

------
ducttape12
Chatting can be difficult for men. As a man, we tend to not make points about
chatting about our feelings or life. But, when our goal is video games /
bowling / watching a football game / whatever else with downtime, well, the
feelings or life conversations aren't our focus then. Loophole! (not to
mention sometimes serious conversations can cause awkward silences. Everyone
has the activity to turn back to.)

~~~
pessimizer
It can also be boring and annoying to talk about politics, the weather, or to
gossip about people not present. Video games, like sports, offer a very
detailed, completely trivial subject to talk about. Additionally, silence
while watching or playing a game isn't dead (like silences at the holiday
dinner table), it's a steady stream of new conversational material.

------
outime
I made true friends through Ventrilo/TeamSpeak and different games (but mostly
Counter-Strike). I’ve never made a phone call to a friend unless truly
necessary but I’ve spent several hours talking through these.

Nowadays with Discord it’s just so much easier and fun for everyone. I’m happy
that it was invented and just wish it was open-source but oh well.

~~~
qznc
What is wrong with Mumble? [https://www.mumble.com/](https://www.mumble.com/)

~~~
ohithereyou
My high school/college friends and I (we've been out of school for nearly 15
years at this point) moved to Discord from Mumble. Here were our reasons why:

* persistent text chat - we're spread across different time zones, and the ability to talk separated by time without having to resort to a forum is very nice, pinging someone with a question or with a reminder for our next game and anime night is really nice; having a separate space from group SMS (which we don't really use) is nice because when I'm at work I can log out of Discord and not be bothered, and if I get an SMS I know that it's something that I have to deal with now

* consistent interface across mobile and desktop - it's nice to have a consistent, universal interface across desktop (Mac, Linux, Windows) and mobile (iOS and Android) versions; it's nice that there are multiple apps for Mumble, but that makes support more difficult

* built in screen sharing support - see support note above

* channel permissions - we have subgroups based on interest, listed in an announce channel, and people that want to join in on that discussion can, but people who are uninterested in, say, Warhammer, discussion don't even have that channel cluttering up their interface, nor do they have to explicitly mute it

* push notifications - see ping above, it's nice

* better bot integration - for me, anyway, it's easier to integrate bots into Discord than it is for Mumble - this is subjective

Those are just the reasons I could think of off the top of my head. I would
love to be able to self-host our Discord server, and if it had existed at the
level of maturity that it is at now, I probably would have suggested moving to
Matrix or something similar.

------
Funes-
>Like others his age, Gill says that his close friendships from high school
and college have atrophied, not only because of the distance but because of
their mutual aversion to talking on the phone.

I'll take the liberty to illustrate my own experience: my number of
friendships and acquaintances has incredibly declined not because of any
personal aversion to voicecalls, but to texting and social media.

I've noticed how, gradually, people I'm frequently around have grown more and
more reluctant not only to pick up a phone call but also--and more importantly
--to engage in face-to-face interaction, something I find absolutely essential
to fulfill one's social needs to a deeply satisfying extent. Not having an
online, public presence makes you irrelevant to a lot of people. In some
countries, for example, not using WhatsApp is plain social suicide.

~~~
tluyben2
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I guess I have the opposite experience.
With phonecalls I had issues because I have serious tinnitus and have had that
since I was young (played in metal bands and was a real man so no
earplugs...). Since chatting became normal I made more solid friendships then
I ever did in person and definitely then on the phone. I chat like we are
sitting together which people find akward at first but then they seem to like
it. It is not very different after a while if it is face to face vs writing
1000s of lines of text in some chat client. And the conversations are usually
more profound; no noise, no drinking and time to ponder answers and questions.

Face to face I personally still prefer but I notice my younger friends do not
and that is fine.

I have been making (and losing them as well; especially the ones I made in my
teens: we have nothing at all in common anymore mostly) real friends (as in
people that click fast and you talk with day and night if the opportunity is
there) over 30 and over 40; those were met online via sideprojects, company
buys and sells and some of them I have never met.

~~~
kazagistar
> no noise, no drinking

I strongly recommend casual wandering walks for anyone without mobility issues
as a bar replacement. I don't even remember where I picked up the habit, but I
never was really introduced to bars until later, and they always seemed
inferior and have shown a few of my friends the benefits of walking around
outside and having a chat (sobriety optional).

~~~
tluyben2
These days, when I meet friends face to face, it is on long walks in nature or
the city; we hardly ever sit down. The bar/party thing was referring to what
most people around here prefer when meeting ‘friends’ (close personal
acquaintances) so it is hard to break that if people are stuck in that.
Especially for people who have fulltime jobs, around here, outside the job you
either vacation with the family or are in a bar.

------
mmsimanga
Not sure if it is something I picked up from my dad but I hardly chat to
friends I have made over the years. As I have grown older I have gotten closer
to my family including extended family. When I do meet with my friends we kick
off as if we last saw each other yesterday yet sometimes it is a good 5,10 or
even 15 years since we last met. The older I get the more memories I seem to
have that include my family so I just focus on them. Not to say I don't talk
to other people but I make way more effort and it seems much easier to talk to
family. Maybe it is an African thing most of us are big on extended family. My
uncle is a good 15 years older than me. Growing up he was an adult now we both
adults so we can converse on the same level. Same with my dad.

~~~
52-6F-62
Nah you just described me and my father to an extent. There are variables, but
what you described really sounded familiar. And my dad’s side is Scottish.

My mom is more social and cognizant if social needs (Irish). Though less so
now that they’re getting older/retired.

I’m not sure how well it mixes with the norms of Canadian society here. Often
feels a touch off-centre but not entirely out of place.

So maybe more a trait of people who just tend toward family over other social
connections, and less a heritage thing?

~~~
mmsimanga
Thanks for sharing. Within the extended family different people grow into
different roles. You have the aunt who everyone confides in she always tells
you as it is whether you want to hear it or not. But since you know it is
coming from a place of love its all good. In your 20s you do all the running
around. Slaughtering whatever animal needs to be slaughtered. In your 30 and
40s you the ones that make sure things move. You help organise weddings,
family meetups, funerals and so on. All these occasions tend to be big back
home. Then you transition into a senior role where you act as an advisor to
the 30 year olds organising everything. Finally when you are
grandmother/father age you just an honoured guest who can do whatever they
want :-). You become the joker, family historian ... whatever you want really.

------
gtirloni
Interesting, I've never thought about this but it matches my recent
experience.

Friendship as an adult has been about shared interests, not being assigned to
the same class or living nearby, so it makes sense.

~~~
criddell
Kids change it too. It's hard not to make friends when you see the same
parents a couple times a week at soccer or baseball or swimming, year-after-
year. There's a lot of downtime and you around people that you have something
in common with.

~~~
Steve44
With both of our kids we had a great social life with groups of the other
parents all through school. There were annual dances, fetes, mums nights out,
dads nights out, meeting for a quick beer etc. etc. Now the kids have left
school the majority of that has dropped off, we do keep in good social contact
with a couple of people but I really miss how busy and varied the social life
used to be.

------
monk_e_boy
I’ve seen this with my kids and their school friends when they play online
together. They chat and encourage each other, its really sweet and completely
different to their off line rough and tumble play. I wake up on the weekends
to quiet whispers of “sick play, dude.”

~~~
lifeisstillgood
What ages are your kids / what games do they play (as a father of three i want
to encourage the good stuff / discourage the bad)

~~~
monk_e_boy
10 and 7, although the 7 year old plays with the 10 year olds online.

They play minecraft, fortnite, brawlhalla, titanfall 2 ... mostly. They play
in the lounge with us watching (I'll youtube while they play) and any game
that is a 15, group chat is off.

We are on PS4 so you can turn game chat off and turn friend chat on in the PS4
friend settings.

------
brightball
There’s a buddy of mine who I stay in touch with by playing Chess on a mobile
app. We’ve had a game going at all times for probably 4 years now with a 3 day
time limit on moves.

He’s a lot better than me. Overall record is something like 200-50, but it’s a
simple way to keep in touch.

Other than that, all of my friends of college stay in touch because of college
football. We all follow the team, get together at different away games and
bowl games. Home games are actually tougher because most people come with a
family routine for those.

------
klausjensen
I second this... One of my best friends moved to another country, and we
regularly talk on VOIP during console games.

Hell, sometimes we talk for an hour and never even manage to start the game...

------
faitswulff
Having just watched the "Striking Vipers" Black Mirror episode, it was mildly
frustrating watching men do everything _but_ talk...

~~~
DonHopkins
I don't know what you mean by frustrating. For a Black Mirror episode, it had
such a happy ending!

~~~
faitswulff
Yeah, maybe I've spent too much time on r/sex and r/relationships. The answer
is always communication! It's just surprising to me that someone could be in a
relationship for 10+ years and not communicate everything, no matter how
embarrassing or intimate.

------
manfredo
I used to play WoW with a childhood friend on the other side of the country.
Unlike MOBAs, I find that WoW is (or at least was during BC and WotLK) are
mindless enough that you can actually hold a real conversation.

------
ken
How’s the sound quality of these gaming systems?

I hate talking on phones more than ever because rectangular “candybar”
smartphones aren’t a good fit for a face, and the audio quality is terrible. I
have to keep saying “What did you say?”

 _Of course_ I prefer meeting in person, and ideally in a place that isn’t
pumping in music. It’s the only way to hold an actual conversation.

~~~
vwyxp
Sound quality is perfectly fine. When it's not, it's always because the other
party has a crappy microphone or a crappy connection.

~~~
kazagistar
I just had a chat on mumble last night catching up with a collage friend who
now lives back home in the middle east. It was totally fine and clear. I also
had a chat with my mother over a cell phone, and she lives in another city in
the same state, and that quality was way worse and actually dropped audio at
one point. It's really kinda embarrassing how bad phones are at this point,
relatively speaking.

------
yay_cloud2
For me, this is fantasy hockey. I don't even like to watch hockey anymore, but
I enjoy the daily interaction with my friends who are no longer in the same
city and busy with their own lives.

------
blegblarh
Man I can relate!

I met most of my closest friends in College and we graduated almost a decade
ago and have ended up moving to different parts of the states but I keep in
contact with most of them via a Discord server and play with some of them on a
near daily basis.

It's really great since it feels like we are just hanging out in the dorm hall
just shooting the shit.

------
knolax
That has been my experience. Friendships are best formed and maintained by
working towards some mutual goal or at the very least regular interaction. In
the absence of physical proximity games are pretty much the only recreational
option.

------
RichardHeart
It's funny how s05e01 of Black Mirror addressesthis.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striking_Vipers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striking_Vipers)

~~~
krsrhe
That’s probably a why the article was written.

------
DigitalTerminal
And it really works. I can chat with my friends, talk during the game, but
I'll never talk on the phone. Idk why, but it's nice to know that this is just
not my way.

------
petra
Why hasn't this caught on for watching TV together, online ?

~~~
rocky1138
It's socially unacceptable to talk over a movie or TV show, but welcomed when
talking over videogames.

~~~
anon4242
This probably has something to do with a movie/TV show is a ready-made story
you mentally dive into while a multiplayer game session is a story that you
create together. In the first case talking is disrupting while in the second
it's _part_ of the story.

