
World first as wind turbine upgraded with high temperature superconductor - _Microft
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/world-first-as-wind-turbine-upgraded-with-high-temperature-superconductor/3009780.article
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_Microft
Slightly OT, regarding high-temperature superconductivity: this article [1]
reports on an interesting effect that appears in some materials that are
showing HTS. A theoretical scientist is quoted there with “ _We probably won’t
understand why the superconducting temperature in cuprates is high until we
understand the strange-metal phase out of which the superconductivity emerges_
”. A new approach seems welcome, as it felt like progress on HTS had stalled
(imo). It _might_ finally help us to get closer to room temperature
superconductors... :)

[1] [https://www.quantamagazine.org/universal-quantum-
phenomenon-...](https://www.quantamagazine.org/universal-quantum-phenomenon-
found-in-superconductors-20181119/)

~~~
politician
You might find the recent work on graphene superlattices [1] interesting; the
video goes into a bit into what cuprates are doing and how the graphene
approach might explain some of that space.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18514085](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18514085)

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Nasrudith
It is interesting to see that it is apparently viable - enough to not be a
novelty/joke. Given materials one upgrade a stationary bicycle generator to
use superconductors. Unless it became both much cheaper and much higher
temperature there would be basically no reason to do so but you could.
Megawatt Turbines should certainly be able to sustain it but I wonder how the
math works out in terms of both performance and balance sheets.

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amaterasu
Would be interesting to see the actual cost differential in this vs permanent
magnets.

They don't go into details about the cost of fabricating the HTS, but
gadolinium is less than half the cost (in oxide form) of neodymium according
to the article, and it uses 1/1000th the amount.

~~~
tigershark
I think it’s just a publicity stunt. There is no way that this wind turbine
will be more profitable than a normal one given the pretty crazy cooling
requirements. Also I don’t really understand why they chose that kind of
superconductor that apparently has to be cooled to -240 when there are other
superconductors that need to be cooled to _just_ 150K...

~~~
jacobush
Wait, are they saying 33 Kelvin is high temperature when it comes to super
conductors?

~~~
dagw
Traditionally (or at least when I was at University ~20 years ago) anything
above 30 Kelvin is considered a high temperature super conductor.

~~~
tigershark
Not really, I think that now superconductors that can be cooled down by _just_
liquid nitrogen are considered high temperature. That’s 77k.

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everyone
Is this the same tape that is making fusion more feasible?

[https://www.psfc.mit.edu/research/topics/sparc](https://www.psfc.mit.edu/research/topics/sparc)

~~~
threeseed
Yes. It's currently being used by Tokamak Energy:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gel3jV0Oifs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gel3jV0Oifs)

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fromthestart
How does the efficiency of this design compare to standard conductor turbines,
especially with the added energy cost of cooling?

~~~
mikro2nd
I suspect that those are the sorts of question this first installation is
supposed to answer. They'll certainly have models for efficiency, cost,
lifetime, maintenance, etc. but they remain models and field-testing the
reality is absolutely the step they appear to be taking here. This was alluded
to in the article itself, where they described the cooling unit as previously
untested in the relatively dirty conditions under which a wind-generator
operates, as opposed the previous applications of the cooler operating in
hospitals and clean lab environments.

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arijun
In July there was a excellent IEEE article [1] on the potential and the
difficulties of superconducting turbines. This project (Ecoswing) is mentioned
there, although it seems they switched from YBCO to GdBaCuO.

[1] [https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/the-troubled-
quest...](https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/the-troubled-quest-for-
the-superconducting-wind-turbine)

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analog31
Does the refrigerator still need helium? Getting rid of helium might be a
bigger deal than just raising the temperature.

Edit: Thanks for the comments. Adding a note: As I understand it, in some of
these materials, the transition temperature decreases when the material is in
a strong magnetic field, so there's a limit to how strong a magnet can be
made, and further cooling may be needed to deliver sufficient field for an
application. Still, I'm excited, and hoping that the "grail" of helium free
refrigeration is achieved soon, due to the tricky issue of world helium
supply.

~~~
stephen_g
I found this other document that has some information I think about this
project at the end [1], which says it's conduction cooled by the cold heads.
So perhaps it doesn't use either LN or liquid helium.

1\.
[https://indico.cern.ch/event/588810/contributions/2477331/at...](https://indico.cern.ch/event/588810/contributions/2477331/attachments/1413568/2163143/WAMHTS-2_THEVA_2017-02-16_final.pdf)

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
What does "conduction cooled with cold heads" mean?

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azernik
"Cold head" means the cold end of a cryocooler. "Conduction cooled with cold
heads" means that the superconductor is in direct thermal contact with the
cold end, rather than through some more complicated arrangement.

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amluto
I'd be interested in a comparison of the cost and efficiency of this type of
generator versus using an induction generator. Induction generators don't need
magnets either.

I'm also wondering what type of generator they built. Is the superconductor in
the rotor or the stator? Does it carry a DC current and, if so, is it operated
in persistent mode? Or does it carry an AC current like an induction
generator's rotor would?

~~~
rurban
It's a PMM, so it's in the rotor, and a PMM is much more efficient and smaller
than a simple induction generator. By factor 10 I would guess.

Those types (usually built by Bombardier) generate AC, but convert
intermediately to DC.

~~~
amluto
I wonder if superconducting induction machines would be a useful research
direction. They would be strange, since the flux through any particular loop
of superconductor would be a constant.

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chopin
I'd be interested in the failure modes of this, especially when the cooling
malfunctions suddenly (or along with a failing temperature sensor).

~~~
londons_explore
All the energy in the superconductors magnetic field is suddenly released into
heat, which will make it get hot and boil off all the helium it's sitting in.

The generator will then have no magnetic field, so generate no power, and
start to spin faster and faster.

Hopefully there are some breaks to stop it before this happens:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6SuCut91WY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6SuCut91WY)

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Looks like the turbine blades are variable probably pitch[1], so that would
have to fail as well.

1\. [https://ecoswing.eu/project](https://ecoswing.eu/project)

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lokopodium
Would be awesome to fit air liquifiers there as well to replenish the coolant.
After all, it's a bunch of pumps and radiators.

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2sk21
Its taken 30 years for high-temperature superconductivity to have a
significant impact in the real world!

~~~
sien
Fabricating them has proven to be very challenging.

A bit like with solar cells with high efficiency. Labs create them, but
fabricating it in useful volumes is also hugely challenging.

Or, if you like, GUIs, which were demonstrated in 1967 but didn't come into
great use until about 20 years later.

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garyclarke27
Would this make sense in a Tesla Semi Truck? Cheaper lighter, electric motors
are essentially the same as generators in reverse.

~~~
endymi0n
This starts getting viable only now on a turbine scale of several Megawatts,
with a very continuous workload. Scale this down to a car delivering an
average of just a few kW that is driven maybe an hour or two per day and
you‘ll lose all that efficiency to just cooling down the motor to -240•C and
keeping it there.

~~~
fyfy18
I assume that's why GP was talking about Tesla trucks. If a truck has two
drivers it can be used for nearly a whole day - assuming the batteries could
keep up.

~~~
garyclarke27
Yes or even a Road Train with say 3 drivers on board for 24 hour use, big
shortage of drivers in US apparantly. Road train must be more feasible now,
software should be able to easily steer multiple trailers with independent
steering ,forward in same path as cab and for reversing which would be tricky
without such.

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ngcc_hk
“They require substantial quantities of rare earth metals, however, which are
expensive and are mostly mined in just one country – China – which has led to
worries over security of supply.“

~~~
whatshisface
There are other potential sources in the world, but they will not be explored
until there is a clear financial benefit to exploring them. That will most
likely not happen until something goes wrong with the supply in China.

~~~
RidingPegasus
China only has 1/3rd of the worlds extractable deposits. Rare earth minerals
is the typical "China Bad" scare story. They reduced the amount they sold
because they wanted it themselves to value-add making electronics/renewables
and being the vast majority of world supply it got them a better price.

Much like many other countries on earth do. OPEC even has multiple annual
meetings where they all decide to collude on restricting oil supply.

If the rest of the world was truly worried they'd subsidise the industry, as
it stands most countries throw away all their rare earths in tailing dams as
mining byproduct because it's not worthwhile to extract it.

~~~
strainer
In contrast to the common expectation and statements in this article - most
turbines are already not using the rare earth magnet design.

Study: Substitution strategies for reducing the use of rare earths in wind
turbines [1]

>According to our estimations about 23% of the global installed capacity in
2015 is based on wind turbines using [permanent magnet] technology. The
remaining 77% are using conventional electromagnets generators based on
magnetic steel and copper windings, both of them posing no issues about the
security of material supply.

[1]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142071...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301420717300077)

~~~
petre
PM rotor generators have several disadvantages: they're heavy; magnetic flux
fades in time, moreso under heat; inability to control the rotor's magnetic
flux; probably expensive as well.

~~~
rurban
Mostly true, just not the price. A simple stator generator is about half the
price of a PMM, and at least half the value.

~~~
strainer
In table 3* the study summarizes 4 categories of generator.

    
    
      Low speed Permanent Magnet     PMSG
      Low speed Excited Synchronous  EESG
      Mid to High speed Geared PM    PMSG
      High speed Geared Induction    DFIG
    

All these types are currently competitive in large wind turbine installations,
with high PM content designs getting selected in quite a minority of cases,
despite modest efficiency and maintenance bonuses, even at the current top end
of generator scale ~8MW.

To get beyond 10MW generators advantages of PM are desired but are also
lumbered by relative heaviness besides the price of rare earths.
Superconducting Magnets do seem like the way upward then, if reliable 'super-
cooling' can be achieved.

[*]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142071...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301420717300077#t0015)

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crb002
You could probably pack an array of several smaller diameter dynamos within
the housing of the base. Only issue is the belt/chain drive down the shaft so
if one jams the others can still work.

~~~
stephen_g
I don't think the size of the thing is really an issue - they can always make
bigger turbines. Smaller and lighter for the same power is definitely a plus,
but not the big advantage the article is talking about. The real advantage of
this is not having to use a tonne of rare-earth magnet and instead using only
kilograms of rare earth material in the superconducting version.

~~~
xbmcuser
The lighter the material the larger they can make using less materials. On
site installation and other related things also become easier.

