
What A Hacker Learns After A Year In Marketing - coloneltcb
http://brooklynhacker.com/post/29901112213/what-a-hacker-learns-after-a-year-in-marketing
======
austenallred
I come from a marketing background, and I have to say that sometimes the
negative view of marketers is completely deserved. All it takes is some kid in
business school to watch The Social Network and decide he needs a "code
monkey" to build his awesome idea. He becomes the "idea" guy, tries to find
someone to give 10% equity to build everything, and gets ready to snort
cocaine in Palo Alto.

But if you've ever worked with a truly talented marketer, it's an incredible
experience. The way they can take something, craft the messaging to it's JUST
RIGHT and find the proper channels to market on - it's a beautiful thing. But
for someone who doesn't come from a marketing background, it's very hard to
discern.

I'm sure there are really bad hackers (or do we still call them "hackers?"),
but if you're a marketer it's hard to tell the difference.

Generally disrespect comes from a lack of willingness to understand what
actually happens on the other side. I think it should be mandatory for every
marketer to learn how to code - even if it's some basic HTML/CSS/JavaScript.
Hackers should all have to try and acquire customers, and see that it's not
all sending out a couple of tweets or emailing a TechCrunch columnist. Whether
you consider the other side a "code monkey" or a "non-technical idiot," you're
in big trouble. It takes two hands to clap, and both are immensely difficult
to accomplish.

You have to specialize, but you also have to understand.

~~~
mindcrime
_He becomes the "idea" guy, tries to find someone to give 10% equity to build
everything, and gets ready to snort cocaine in Palo Alto._

I think marketers would be well served to do some self-marketing and figure
out a way to spread the word that "idea guy" != "marketer". As you say, a
truly talented marketer is something special. Most random "idea guy" types
know bugger-all about marketing.

~~~
corin_
Actually in my experience, a lot of the best people in marketing are very much
"idea guys". Some of them along the HN-hated template of "well just get some
coder to knock it up" (being good at marketing doesn't automatically mean you
understand anything about what technical people do..), some of them realise
this isn't realistic or sensible.

~~~
mindcrime
_Actually in my experience, a lot of the best people in marketing are very
much "idea guys"._

Right, marketers can (and probably should) be "idea guys", but not all "idea
guys" are marketers. Most "idea guys" (in my experience) don't know much about
anything at all. It's that distinction that I think real, professional,
talented marketing people should try to make... otherwise they risk getting
lumped in with the chumps.

 _Some of them along the HN-hated template of "well just get some coder to
knock it up" (being good at marketing doesn't automatically mean you
understand anything about what technical people do..)_

So this is where my opinion may be biased by my technical background, and
where I may go against the grain a bit... but I think really good marketers
(of technical products, that is) _should_ have at least a modicum of technical
knowledge, and should understand exactly what their product does (if not the
deep details of _how_ it does it), and should be able to articulate - in some
detail - how their product addresses a customer problem. To my mind, not being
able to do that, as a marketer, is shooting yourself in the foot.

~~~
corin_
When it comes to marketing technical stuff, I'm on the fence. As someone who
works in marketing, and whose inner geek loves tech stuff, I agree with you in
principle - however my experience has shown me plenty of people who really
know little about what they're selling and yet do a fantastic job. Possibly
the reverse of this experience is that maybe they're better at short-term
sales, worse at actually giving customers what they want and therefore worse
at keeping customers, I suspect this is the case.

But anyway, when I was talking about good marketers who don't understand tech
stuff, I didn't mean people who are marketing the same tech products (such as
Twilio). For example I was speaking to a client this morning, a fairly
important guy in a company that makes certain types of consumer PC components.
Ask him about several areas, such as PSUs, and he knows everything, in so much
detail. But my conversation this morning was helping him work out who in his
company he needed to speak to about creating a small landing page, and how to
get the subdomain he wants. He doesn't know the meaning of any of the
following: "DNS", "IP", "sub-domain". Great at marketing, great at
understanding the products he markets, but if he had an idea that involved any
coding, he wouldn't have a clue.

------
ChuckMcM
I cannot stress how useful this is. When I came to the SF Bay Area I was
working for Intel, but I too felt that some day I wanted to run my own
company. My job at Intel was an engineering job but I spent all day
interacting with the marketing group and the design engineers as a liason. I
realized I had some built in assumptions about how 'easy' marketing was and I
didn't even know what they did.

When I was recruited into Sun I had a choice to either take a job offered by
Marketing (Carol Bartz was my boss' boss :-) or the kernel group. I chose
Marketing because I really wanted to learn that skill. It was a hugely
valuable choice. After 18 months I decided at my heart I was an engineer and
switched over to the systems group, but having that knowledge gave me a new
found respect for what marketing folks have to do, day in and day out.

That in turn let me recognize the difference between good marketers and
mediocre ones, and to understand what they needed from engineering to
communicate to future customers.

~~~
RobSpectre
Killer story Chuck. You should write a post of your experience. That stretch
in Sun's history is always something that fascinated me - never get tired
hearing stories from that period.

------
kerryfalk
I was a bit hesitant to click the link, but I'm glad I did.

 _"As it turns out, the ones who do it well are rare and far less visible
because - like good programmers - their work is a lot harder to notice."_

This sums my experience perfectly. It takes a long time to be able to
understand who is good at something and who is not.

Pardon my language but many marketers are charlatans. When I first started in
marketing I thought the charlatans were the ones who were good (incompetent
people [me at that time] are the least competent at recognizing those who are
good). Now, after a decade at it I can firmly agree with the statement above
and I think it bodes very well for the author.

I believe the 2nd point is the most important to understand when trying to get
good at marketing. The rest is ancillary to doing a great job, but having the
data is essential to knowing _what_ to do.

I believe great marketers are like methodical scientists. They can put aside
their own biases and test their hypothesis and analyze the data. Beyond that,
they can look at the data in front of them, identify what they need to know
more about, and discover things they did not expect. Through this they can
affect change that improves the entire organization.

~~~
Nowyouknow
"I believe great marketers are like methodical scientists. They can put aside
their own biases and test their hypothesis and analyze the data. Beyond that,
they can look at the data in front of them, identify what they need to know
more about, and discover things they did not expect. Through this they can
affect change that improves the entire organization."

GREAT quote. Bravo. Way to put into words what I struggle to say. Thanks.

~~~
RobSpectre
+1, but to be fair to the discipline, I think there are fair number of posers
in any important line of work. Programming is plagued by the same affliction,
as anyone who has ever had to fill head count will tell you.

------
Nowyouknow
That was a great little read. Whenever I try to explain to my developer
friends why my job is important, I'm usually shrugged off rudely. This guy
gets it, experience is the only way to learn WHY marketing is so essential.

My humble request to developers: Stop being dismissive of marketers, they are
an essential part of the equation.

~~~
caseysoftware
I think it goes back to what Rob highlights in the post.. the bad marketing is
what sticks out. When we think of marketing, we think of booth babes,
commercials with bad actors saying awkward things, and airheads who don't
understand their business or product.

The best "sales" guy I ever met was a guy who just stopped and listened. He
would ask a few questions, work to understand the underlying problems, and if
he couldn't help directly, he'd put you in touch with someone who could.. and
then buy a beer the next time he saw you.

I believe marketing should be the same way.

(Disclosure: I report to the OP at Twilio.)

~~~
Nowyouknow
You're entirely right, the good sales person and the good marketer spark the
conversation and keep it going. They shouldn't be the dominant voice. See my
reply below as it pertains to this.

Sidenote: I love Twilio as a company and have ever since you guys sponsored a
Startup Weekend in Chicago about 3 years ago. I wish y'all were hiring.

~~~
mcos
They are hiring! <http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/twilio/list>

~~~
Nowyouknow
You're right! I actually checked before submitting that comment, I should have
said, "I wish you guys were hiring IN CHICAGO."

~~~
caseysoftware
If you're interested in Developer Evangelism in Chicago, email me. We make it
there but not nearly often enough.

I'm Austin based.. and it's way better than SF. ;)

~~~
Nowyouknow
Austin is a town I want to live in some day! I'm emailing you now.

------
DanLivesHere
If you're a coder, build something and figure out how to take it to market.
Then, and only then, you'll understand marketing.

If you're a marketer, try and build something. Then, and only then, you'll
understand development.

There's no better way to learn than to fail miserably.

~~~
RobSpectre
I hear you here Dan, but I have to admit seeing it done _right_ is pretty
powerful as well. Working with Danielle Morrill and Lynda Smith in particular
strongly accelerated my understanding of this business discipline.

I think there's room in the universe for both approaches.

------
edghf
I'm a writer and editor. I've done marketing and financial writing, and the
job I'm starting in two weeks will require me to do technical writing. I've
also started learning to code, because I'm interested in it and because it's
an important part of how important systems in the world work.

There are common attitude problems on both sides of the the technical/non-
technical fence. From the non-technical side, there's a sense of unfairness,
that people with the interest to pursue technical subjects are guaranteed
80k/year jobs right out of college, that they are stuck-up and dismiss the
ideas and opinions of people with fewer credentials, etc. Like most
stereotypes almost none of that is true. My coder friends are some of the most
generous, respectful people I've ever met. It's much harder even for someone
trained in CS to get a job than it looks from outside. HN is largely technical
--you know that there are reasons for how technical people behave even when it
might seem strange to outsiders.

The most common mistake I see technical people make about non-technical people
is in the area of algorithms and specifications. To but it simply: in a lot of
disciplines, there aren't any. The common misunderstanding is that there are
formulas you can use, or rules you can follow, to get the result you want in
non-technical disciplines. There are huge numbers of artifacts in the world
that aren't empirically measurable. Take a pair of jeans and say, "Is this
OPTIMAL?" The question is as nearly meaningless as makes no difference. Look
at a wedding bouquet, or a corporate event, or a logo. The people who make
these things are constantly making choices informed by their education,
experience and perception, but those choices aren't based on data that's
easily quantified. At best, you start to notice patterns that work and
patterns that don't work, which is something that I think can also be said
about software development.

------
mindcrime
Good stuff. I guess, as hackers go, I was always a little weird, in that I
always found marketing fascinating. But over the past year or so (and
especially the past 6 months) I've been diving into marketing _big time_ ,
studying as much marketing (and, to a lesser extent, sales) material as I can,
and starting to do things like putting together a tentative marketing plan for
our startup.

Wow. The OP is right, this stuff is NOT easy. Here's one for you... a guy
named Chet Holmes, who is a fairly well known marketing guru (and who
unfortunately passed away recently, R.I.P.) spoke a lot about "core stories"
and how "market data trumps product data," and suggests that the "story" you
tell about your product be informed by data _about the market of the people
you're selling too_. So, if you're selling software to,say, bolt & screw
manufacturers in the Southeast, you need to know what's going on with bolt &
screw manufacturers in the Southeast, what the trends are, what problems they
face, and how to talk to them in terms that relate to _their problems_ first
and foremost, and NOT your product first and foremost.

So, here's your homework... go out and start researching bolt and screw
manufacturing in the Southeast, identify some meaningful trends and patterns,
come up with hard numbers, economic issues, etc., and then find a way to use
that to use that to tie your product to a problem those guys are having. And
now write up a compelling educational brief for that market, which tells a
good story, and educates, while contributing to demand for what you do.

Now come up with a great headline for your story that will capture someone's
interest.

Now figure out how to get it in front of the people that need to see it.

Now call them and try to get a meeting so you can talk to them in person about
the issues at hand.

Now do this for each identifiable target market you're pursuing (note: I'm
referring mainly to B2B scenarios here, since that's what we do).

But wait, there's more... you also need to think about your "ultimate
strategic position" and how all of your messaging contributes to that
positioning, and about how to achieve "top of mind awareness" among your
audience. And for extra giggles, coordinate PR campaigns, manage events, do
market research which is more "product focused," etc., etc., etc.

Nah, this stuff is definitely not easy. It's hard in a way that's different
from hacking (which is what makes it fun, to be honest), but hard nonetheless.
I really have a newfound respect for the really good marketing people out
there, and it's growing as I learn more about what marketing entails. Hint:
It's not just throwing a few Google Adwords out there and waiting for the
money to roll in (well, not for most of us, anyway).

(aside: I'm taking a very broad view of marketing here. I see marketing as a
strategic component, which entails selecting the ideal customer segments,
driving product decisions, receiving input/feedback from customers,
determining the vision the company wants to communicate to the market, and
communicating that to the market... as well as the tactical elements such as
"create brochure," "create whitepaper," "create screencast," "organize PR
campaign," "do focus group," "take pizza and t-shirts to hackathon," etc.)

~~~
aik
I'm in a very similar position currently. Do you have any recommendations on
resources/books to study? Actions to take?

I've been in the process of trying to redefine how we talk and show our
product, build product flyers, discount flyers, pricing sheets -- all for
using at conferences we attend and for attaching to e-mails. In addition,
learning about the customer segment is something I've been trying -- but it is
HARD!

E.g.: \- How much can you really talk to your existing customers, or potential
customers, to gather information before stepping over the line?

Building a great understanding of your customers is absolutely necessary to be
an effective marketer. Building that understanding, and having a sense of how
tuned-in you are, is hard and something I haven't yet figured out.

~~~
adrianhoward
_E.g.: - How much can you really talk to your existing customers, or potential
customers, to gather information before stepping over the line?_

My tip on that would be to seek out the customers that are having the biggest
problems / most pain. You'll find that they're _really_ happy to talk for as
long as you like to help solve those problems.

They're also the most forgiving when it comes to any marketing missteps you
make - since you're helping with one of their big pain points.

I've found a tendency among some dev-oriented folk to treat the "important"
customers - the ones that you need most - with kid gloves. In fact those
customers tend to need you just as much as you need them, so are much more
willing to talk, advise and forgive than the larger market.

------
organico
Nice piece - as a coder turned entrepreneur, the sales and marketing side of
things has been exceptionally hard for me. It's a battle everyday, and if I
could turn back time I would have ensured I worked in a marketing department,
or with people skilled in the area before embarking down my current path...

That said, I'm in the hole now, learning as fast as I can, solo. Can anyone
make some current/and also seminal marketing book must-haves?

~~~
shredfvz
> as a coder turned entrepreneur ...

As an entrepreneur turned doer-of-everything, I recommend you reconsider your
path unless you're truly confident in your ability to execute on whatever
skills you learn in RL, for real money. I'll give you vague suggestions
anyway, but please realize you not only must have the sales and marketing down
pat, you need serious money and cajones to go "solo", else you better have an
impossible string of luck or one idea of the century after another.

This is not directed at you in particular, but HN is no different than other
forums in other industries: you have a ton of people fronting like Jesus but
who make shit revenue, then you have the people who make shit revenue,
meanwhile 5% or less of the total posters are truly raking it in. Don't be
willing to forefeit your field of specialty and competitive advantage after
getting starry eyes on [insert website here], and 2) when you go to learn
sales and marketing it is critical you learn only from truly proven people.

Well how about some suggestions: everything from copywriting classics
(Ogilvy), contemporary marketing video course legends (Kern), to psychology
and successful sales trainers.

stackthatmoney.com (not an affiliate)

If you are a coder, you have a significant advantage in that - assuming you're
willing to approach your marketing and sales learnings like you approached
learning to code - you can become better at sales and marketing than a
(surprisingly) large number of life long salespeople and marketers. The
question is, are you going to make the sacrifices necessary to both learn it
all and then go out and do it.

~~~
organico
Thanks for the tips - I've worked as a freelancer for the last 10 years, and
have now run my own company for the last 2.5 years, so doer-of-everything is
in my nature, and its just a matter of making the decision to really knuckle
down with study and hard work.

For me, it's really about being frank with myself and rapidly addressing the
areas of my knowledge and experience that are lacking, even if part of me
doesn't want to. I'm surviving in my own business though, and my stronger
concentration on sales and marketing is what will push me to the next level.
Thanks again.

------
EGreg
I wrote about the exact opposite: what I've learned about getting users
without any marketing or PR.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4415473>

I am posting this here in case someone who's good in marketing or PR sees it
and reaches out.

------
aorshan
I can absolutely attest to this. Rob came to a hackathon I participated in a
few months ago at the University of Miami. He did a great job and really made
Twilio seem totally awesome. He was great to work with and really pushed my
team to reach above our potential.

~~~
RobSpectre
Thanks yo! I just wore my UHack shirt the other day at the Red Sox game and a
couple Hurricane alumni gave me a high five.

Had a great time.

------
jonathanjaeger
There is a big difference between marketing for a brand and now always knowing
your exact quantitative output in monetary value and performance based
marketing. I work in performance based marketing running a variety of online
ad campaigns for a number of clients. At the end of the day you always know
exactly how much revenue you brought in and at what margins. It's exciting,
creative, and extremely data driven. In this day and age marketing is partly
creative, but is also subject to a variety of algorithms and mental
calculations.

------
bjornsing
_Now I can code all goddamn day and probably never achieve the same impact as
that little conversation in the middle of a busy conference._

Correlation is not causation. Sounds like the author is about to enter that
glossy pink world of hybris where you think the words that come out of your
mouth is what makes the world go 'round. ;)

I'm not saying those words of encouragement where worthless, but they did not
cause the development and launch of a successful business.

------
bootload
_"... Sales and marketing were skills I just didn’t have and were I to ask
others to entrust their livelihoods and their families in such an enterprise,
it would be incumbent upon me to learn. ..."_

Business/marketing readers, this would be the line you give back to hackers
who say learn to code and point number 4, _"You Can Learn To Schmooze"_
highlights a hackers weakest link, people.

------
tmurray
It's good to be exposed to this sort of thing as an engineer. What it teaches
you to do is how to make an impact--you can figure out that feature X, despite
seeming boring and uncool, will dramatically change your business. That's a
great skill to have and will definitely help your career in the long run.

~~~
RobSpectre
I hope so. The strange effect has been it has up-leveled my community impact
for the developer communities in New York I care most about. Learning this
stuff has definitely helped me converse better with my own kind.

------
knes
Thank you for giving a little bit of reputation for our trade of skills around
here :)

~~~
RobSpectre
It's tough work. Not sure I'll ever be good enough at it to be a marketer, but
hats off to you lot. It's tough.

------
suyash
WRONG TITLE: This post is about developer evangelism than marketing lessons.
Please make sure you know what you're talking about @author

~~~
SystemOut
Developer evangelism is marketing.

------
andyl
Old-style marketing is where you run around to meetings and conferences, build
relationships, convince people one on one. Old-style marketing is dead. I say
this as an old-style marketer.

Why dead? Old-style isn't repeatable, it doesn't scale, and you can't train
for it. Old-style is expensive, and doesn't mesh with developer culture.

Growth hacking has replaced old-style marketing. (google it!) Growth hacking
has super-scale, repeatability, measurabilty. Growth hacking is code-driven -
it is developer culture.

IMHO the best approach is Steve Blank style customer development, followed by
product development and growth hacking. Developer culture top to bottom.

~~~
seestheday
It's not dead. Far from it. You still need to have meetings and conferences.
The amount will just depend on your industry.

I really like the idea of growth culture, but thinking that it will apply to
all industries is short sighted IMO.

I run a marketing analytics groups and I'm an ex-hacker/ex-database analyst
(C/perl/php/mysql/postgresql/SAS/Oracle).

Most of the good marketers making their way to the leadership positions with
digital marketing in my n=1 perception have a mix of marketing and hacking on
their resume.

I find the two skills very complimentary.

~~~
andyl
Well, I have to agree. How you go to market depends on your business and
industry.

But to the extent that you can align your business with growth-hacking style
marketing, the better off you're gonna be. IMHO.

