
Get Your Fucking Feet Off The Table - tl
http://oppugn.us/posts/1270132724.html
======
blizkreeg
I'm Indian and I know this about many other cultures too - pointing your feet
at someone is really an incredibly offensive gesture. And given how the
workplace here in tech is a myriad mix of cultures, I'd avoid it. While it
clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty rude
gesture. You may think you're just being chill and laid back but the other
person is thinking (unless you both have feet pointed at each other lol)
you're a moron.

My first week in grad school I went to meet a professor and the fucker puts
his feet up on his desk pointing them right at my face. Since I was a fob at
the time, I wasn't quite sure how to take this. I lost respect for him that
day. Unsurprisingly, he turned out to be an asshole of a professor too.

In a professional setting, most people wouldn't tell you to put them down, but
it reflects badly on you. Do it in India and your boss would fire you,
instantly.

~~~
steamboiler
"While it clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty
rude gesture"

There are a bunch of other gestures that meet the same criterion. I am Indian,
so I'll list some I'm familiar with:

1\. Not addressing your teacher/professor as "Sir/Madam". Addressing a teacher
as Mr. X/Professor Y is verboten.

2\. Displaying photos of your family at work (mild, but yes)

3\. "Disrespecting" your elders/teachers/bosses with counterarguments. ...

On the social front, you'd be expected to

1\. Not address your elders solely by their first name.

2\. Not cohabit with the opposite sex before marriage.

3\. Not smoke/drink.

4\. Not eat pork/beef.

5\. Not change your gender.

Which of these did you object to/are you going to object to? Will you refuse
to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?

The fact is, you were in the US _not_ India. I would argue that the onus is on
you to adjust yourself to the customs of your hosts rather than the other way
around. Just as an Indian would expect any US (or otherwise foreign) visitors
to keep in mind the Indian customs.

PS: you used two epithets to describe your teacher in the same paragraph. I
find it amusing that your "Indian" sensibility (Guru! Respect!) is not
offended by it.

~~~
jacabado
Or if he is your boss, you better adjust (would that mean the trans-gendered
would have to change again? Or is that a double violation?)

~~~
Vivtek
Maybe if your boss switches genders, you'd better, too.

------
edw519
I don't normally care for rants, but I think this one was great.

A few more "pet peeves":

1\. Don't sit on my desk. I'm a programmer. My desk is also my dining table.

2\. If I'm eating at my desk, don't touch my food. I'm so busy that I usually
bring what I think I'll need for the day. I didn't factor in your needs too.
Go to the vending machine.

3\. If your come to my desk and see my typing furiously and I don't look up,
that means I'm busy writing code or commenting on hn. Either way, if the
building's not on fire, go away and send me an email.

4\. If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your
voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw
anything. That's when I leave for the day. Some of us have had enough of that
for one lifetime.

5\. If we're talking in my office, face me and take your hand off the
doorknob. If it's important, I'm not going to rush through it because you're
in a hurry to get somewhere else. If it's not important, then leave me alone.

6\. If we're meeting, turn off your cellphone. If it vibrates, don't look at
it to see who it is. If I'm not the most important person at that moment, then
I don't want to meet with you.

7\. I'm always happy to discuss important matters, but I don't do "status"
meetings. If you want to know status, email me and I'll reply. Otherwise, my
status report would read, "Nothing accomplished. Spent all day in status
meetings."

8\. If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware
in your car. This isn't Cheesecake Factory.

9\. Don't lie to me. Ever. If you tell me that Joe agreed with these mods, I
can easily confirm that with Joe. If he says you never talked to him, I will
never listen to anything you ever say again.

10\. If you had Mexican for lunch, cut the rest of us a break and use the
restroom at the Shell station.

~~~
dabent
>If I'm eating at my desk, don't touch my food.

>If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in
your car.

People actually _do_ that? Where do you work?

>If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice,
don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw
anything.

If one of the last two happened, that's when I'd leave for good. I've seen
people get upset and even raise their voices, but if it ever got even slightly
physical, I think I'd have to go. It's just too easy for an object to hit
someone "accidentally." The last thing I need is a red Swingline stuck in the
back of my head.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Yeah, that's crazy to me. I bring snacks to my office, and when I'm fine with
people eating the things I bring, I make it explicit - I tell everyone, or I
leave a note. Same thing with taking food - I'll ask if it's fine if I take a
few slices of pizza home.

How is taking your food not outright theft?

------
tumult
Hahaha, I started reading this straight away without glancing at the sidebar.
Nodding my head in agreement with the grossness of SF (even though I live here
and love it) and then after a few paragraphs thought, "man, this guy does a
pretty good impression of Zed Shaw."

 _Oh._ I guess he just moved here from New York.

~~~
X-Istence
Had I seen the sidebar before I read the article I would have stopped reading
after the first paragraph.

Let me add that after reading the article I found it to be lacking in any real
valuable content that would have made this a hacker news story. It seems like
he is rambling on about something, that yes I agree it is rude, it is not that
big of a deal and is part of the American culture.

Also, swear words were thrown in not because they added anything to the piece,
but rather because he could. Shame really.

~~~
fleitz
The world according to Zed:

Putting your shoes on the table: Arrogant & impolite

Swearing a lot: A OK!

I don't know why he's so upset with feces on the table when you consider what
comes out of his mouth.

Note: I like to swear as well, but I don't go around being miss manners.

~~~
rms
Swearing in English doesn't upset people not from the USA

~~~
omaranto
Don't you think swearing in English could potentially offend anyone who speaks
English whether or not they're from the USA?

~~~
apgwoz
I never understood how swearing could be offensive. Actually, I find people
that find words offensive, offensive.

------
__david__
Some people are really obsessed with dirt and germs. Some people aren't. Some
people find legs stretched out is quite comfortable. Some people really don't
care about your dumb hangups and like to be comfortable. Trying to say this is
some passive aggressive dominance thing is really, really stretching.

~~~
sern
I like to be comfortable and lying down is comfortable, but I don't take my
bed in and lie down during a meeting. I like farting but I don't do it in
people's faces. Wanking feels good too but I don't do it at work.

Do you really not see how abhorrent it is to be inconsiderate of other people?
It may not be passive-aggressive but it's certainly rude.

~~~
evansolomon
I like drinking coffee, I do that at work. A nice big stretch from time to
time is great, I do at least one each day at my desk. Several times each week
I'll take off my glasses and rub my eyes a bit, I don't care who's around!

Sure, there are things you like to do that shouldn't be done at work, but the
two are not correlated--or at least not as correlated as you suggest. While
you've found some very amusing examples, they're tangentially relevant at best
and used more for hyperbole, just like most of the article.

~~~
netcan
Why don't you explain why feet on table is a dumb hangup while farting is a
rational one.

~~~
kelnos
Farting smells. Feet on the table doesn't (well, hopefully not).

~~~
btilly
Feet on the table can make people sick. Farting can't.

------
car
Some cultural observations about shoes on the table, feces on the sidewalk,
and what it all means.

a) shoes on table

Western Europeans also find the gesture of shoes on chairs and tables
repulsive, both in public and in private.

In my experience, shoes on the table in public seems to be a US specific
behavior, but please correct me if I'm wrong. You know, something you'd see in
a Western. It's a very laissez faire gesture, of a confident and free people,
unlike the stuck up Europeans with all their rules.

The most memorable experience for me was with the CEO of a company where I
worked. He would do this in every meeting, even when we met with executives of
another company. It could have been a dominance gesture, but more likely his
hippy attitude.

I've also observed that people in the US tend to put their shoes where others
will sit or put their hands, e.g. chairs, benches etc.

b) dog poo

People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! A lot of
Europeans don't, which is super nasty. The memory of dogshit in Paris and
Berlin, especially on a hot summer day, makes me want to puke. Google for
Paris and dogshit and see what I mean.

a + b) what it means

Now, to each their own, but from a hygiene/medical standpoint, shoes on chairs
and tables should not be done. Let me explain why.

Even with no visible dogshit under your shoe, there are myriad diseases that
can be transferred this way. It does not have to be as horrible as
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcus_multilocularis>, but there are many
others. Eggs of parasitic worms hosted by domestic animals are quite hardy.
That's why I'd say, leave you shoes (not necessarily feet) of chairs and
tables. Why risk infecting yourself and others? Like wearing a seatbelt, a
simple behavior that can save your life.

~~~
chunkyslink
A lot of what you are saying is a sweeping generalisation.

> People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! Europeans
> don't, which is super nasty.

I live in Yorkshire in the UK and you can get fined £1000 for not picking up
your dog turd. I'm not sure how well it is policed but my town is fairly free
of dog turd. Parks, pavements etc are clear. I dont see much at all.

Please dont make sweeping generalistions like this. You are just plain wrong.

~~~
yardie
The thing about generalizations is 90% of the time they are true. Your city
enforces city ordinances, that rare other 10%. A lot of other places don't and
would be offended at the idea of having to. You know where else is clean?
Singapore, the take it seriously (caning in extreme circumstances).

Now I know Yorkshire and London doesn't have a dog poop problem, but the
majority of Western Europe (I only know of France, Germany, and parts of Spain
I visited) do.

So we can say he is 90% correct. Which is still passing on most standardized
tests.

------
ax0n
While it's aimed at Silicon Valley culture, I see some of this pretty much
everywhere I go, and I'm not afraid to call someone out on it. Quote of the
day: "It's kind of like if I went over to your desk, grabbed you by your
greasy hair, yanked your neckbeard to my backside, and farted straight in your
face while yelling, "I had Kung Pao chicken for lunch! HAHAHAAH!". Yes, that's
what putting your feet up on shit is like to other people."

Putting your feet up on your own shit in your own home to get comfortable?
Sure. Or maybe even on your own desk at the office. In a meeting, a
professional setting and/or around people who aren't good friends? Please. I
would personally walk out.

~~~
mscarborough
Choose one, either 'call someone out on it', or 'walk out'. Or, do like Zed
and write a big passive-aggressive blog post about something that clearly
bothers you, but that you won't deal with in person.

Nowhere in the article did he describe a reaction from any of these 'passive-
aggresive dominants', after they were 'called out' on their offensive
behavior.

Neither in Zed's article or this thread, has anyone done so much as mentioned
their problem with the offending party.

Sheesh, people. I'm not throwing my feet up on the table, but if those who do
bother you so much, then let them know when it happens right in front of you,
instead of waiting and venting on the Internet.

~~~
ax0n
I'm with you all the way. Also, I could (and likely would) call them out by
telling them why I'm leaving. I see it from both sides. In general, I feel
most comfortable on my laptop with my feet elevated and my ear-cans on. I can
go for hours upon hours at a time without taking a break, in the zone. Desk
life just never seems to work quite that well for me.

------
jrockway
I read this and thought, "oh, Zed Shaw has another fucking blog". Then I
realized that this is another of Zed Shaw's fucking blogs.

Incidentally, most gut flora does not live so well on sidewalks and the
bottoms of shoes. Anything that does will just be killed by your immune
system.

If you are this afraid of disease, never use a sponge or your keyboard.

BTW, I don't normally put my feet on the table... but now that I know it
annoys so many people, I am going to start doing it.

~~~
zedshaw
Well, you got loads of class dude. But you know what? At least my blog works:

<http://blog.jrock.us/>

~~~
akkartik
Why is this getting upvoted? It is exemplary ad hominem.

I prefer Zed when he isn't ranting.

~~~
jrockway
Who cares? I know my blog is down.

After Zed's stream of hate here and on Twitter, I'm a little ashamed to admit
that I enjoy his writing. So in addition to putting my feet on the table, I
guess I will have to pretend I don't like "Zed's fucking blog" too now.

Sigh. The internets...

------
sown
When I was in school, this sort of happened to me at a school clinic waiting
room.

I was crossing my legs in the American style. Without realizing my feet were
pointed at what appeared to be two middle eastern men and I noticed they were
giggling. I noticed and put both feet down and immediately apologized to them.
They were impressed that I knew and it made for a good ice breaker (however
culturally risky).

~~~
tsuraan
By pointing, do you mean the soles of your shoes were facing them, or were the
feet pointed in the direction of the men in the normal use of the word
pointing? If it was the normal use of pointing, how do you avoid having your
feet pointing towards whomever is in front of you when you walk? I'm really
just trying to get a picture of the situation here.

~~~
sown
The bottom of my shoe was facing them.

------
ojbyrne
This kind of reads like its written by a future Howard Hughes (not the rich
part, the insane part). Seeing shit on the ground naturally leads to an
aversion to feet. Nothing insane there.

~~~
zedshaw
I prefer Emperor Nero as a good model of future-crazy-but-maybe-brilliant. :-)

------
boryas
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

------
marknutter
Unless your hanging out with buddies or using an iPad, I think it's pretty
common knowledge that propping your feet up is unprofessional at best and rude
at worst.

------
ryandvm
Meh. Sounds like he's harboring the same kind of OCD as the schmuck that
writes notes to his co-workers about clearing the "extra" time off the
microwave.

Nobody is getting cholera from feet on desks, Monk. Double up on hand
sanitizer and deal with it.

~~~
zedshaw
Right, just put up with it like a REAL MAN! I'll shrug it off, and like a real
man, bust out that masculine hand sanitizer just like mommy uses.

It's not about _just_ the cleanliness, it's about going out of your way to
rudely put your damn feet where other people have to put their hands. It's
offensive and it's doubly stupid because it takes effort to do.

So, if your lazy ass has to do this, then rock on manly man. You hardly earned
it.

~~~
erlanger
> bust out that masculine hand sanitizer just like mommy uses.

Sounds like someone has a little germaphobia. And I don't get the whole hand
sanitizer thing..."Yea, I'll clean my hands by rubbing the existing crap in
there real well, and by killing all but the most serious bacteria so that it
has no competition."

> It's not about just the cleanliness, it's about going out of your way to
> rudely put your damn feet where other people have to put their hands.

No, it's my desk. If someone wants to take their chances around it, that's
their call. No different from eating at my desk, really.

------
jacoblyles
Lighten up. You got any proof that people in offices where they are allowed to
relax get sick more?

------
iamwil
I could never figure out why kids in sitcoms wore shoes in bed.

------
Keyframe
Hygienic or not. Zed or not. Poor manners can tell you a lot about what to
expect from that person in a business relationship. I avoid people with poor
manners.

~~~
erlanger
So putting my feet up on my own desk, in my own cubicle, is a sign of poor
manners? Well I think anyone with that opinion can screw themselves with
whichever implement they've lodged up their rectum.

I sit in the same damn posture all day hammering at a keyboard, and one of my
small luxuries is _printing out_ some documentation on whatever it is that I
have to learn about, adjusting my chair to recline a bit, and kicking my feet
up. I may do this for ten minutes or a half hour, and certainly not on a daily
basis, and I certainly don't leave them on the desk if I have company.

Live and let live, people. If something doesn't harm you, and isn't
deliberately malicious, you have nothing to whine about. Go get some work
done.

~~~
infinite8s
They aren't talking about putting up your feet in your own cubicle when nobody
is around. The whole rant is about people who do it in communal settings. You
yourself said you would take them down if you have company in your cubicle.

------
asnyder
That's very interesting, living in New York I really don't see much shit on
the ground, even when commuting into the office. Though, when I visit San
Francisco I don't remember that much shit, but I do remember lots of homeless
people. I suppose the weather makes it the homeless mecca. Not too hot, not
too cold.

~~~
lrm242
The weather--maybe. The local laws--absolutely.

------
guelo
I work/party/hang out in San Francisco, I'm there almost everyday, I don't
remember ever seeing a human sized turd on a sidewalk. In fact, SF streets are
some of the cleanest of any big city I've ever seen.

~~~
justin
>> In fact, SF streets are some of the cleanest of any big city I've ever
seen.

False. SF is a cesspit in any part of downtown, tenderloin, SOMA, the Mission,
and pretty bad in many of the other parts. Every day for the past week I've
watched a mountain sized pile of shit slowly grind down (by being kicked,
stepped on, and rained on) into nothingness outside of our office. It's quite
frankly repellent.

 __Now that I think of it, one time a (presumably) homeless man took a shit on
the wall of our office building. It was there for weeks.

 __*Further SF horror stories: I've also witnessed a homeless man take a dump
on the fence down the street from us in broad daylight. Also a coworker has
seen a pile of dump propped up against a neighbor's door, and witnessed the
shock of said neighbor as they came home to discover it.

~~~
sailormoon
I find it quite incredible that so many Americans, mostly from SF, report
seeing such things, indeed talking about them as if they're a normal part of
everyday life. I have lived in a few places, mostly in Australia and Asia, all
of them big cities and all of them with significant homeless populations, and
have never, ever seen that kind of thing.

What is it about American homeless that they lack even the basic human dignity
to find a toilet to take a dump in? Or hell, at least a drain or somewhere
their shit will wash away? Are they that disconnected from society? Or is it a
calculated thing, like vandalism, revenge against a society they hate? It's
nuts.

Sure, I've seen people shit in public. Once a friend had severe stomach cramps
while walking through a park in central Sydney; she rushed into the bushes to
relieve the pain. And while I was living around there I regularly saw women
(it always seems to be women) crouching over drains in the street outside my
apartment. Hey, I understand, when you gotta go, you gotta go, and severe
diarrhoea makes people desperate. That's fine. But never with this total lack
of dignity and respect that SF residents seem to experience.

~~~
lutorm
Do you think it might have something to do with how easy it is to find a
public toilet?

~~~
sailormoon
I guess that could be a contributing factor, but not being able to find a
public toilet has never inspired _me_ to take a shit on the street in broad
daylight, and I presume most other people would say the same. So it must be
more than that.

~~~
infinite8s
Well, if you are homeless, what else are you going to do? It's not like you
can walk into a Starbucks and use their restroom (aside: one of the benefits
of the huge number of Starbucks in NYC is that they have some of the cleanest
restrooms)

~~~
sailormoon
_It's not like you can walk into a Starbucks and use their restroom_

Why not? And anyway, they could at least try to do it in semi-privacy - maybe
behind a building, or in the bushes, or something. No, it seems almost
deliberate to me, or alternatively so zonked out on drugs/malice that they
just couldn't give a damn. Either way it's not just a lack of facilities.
We've all been in a strange part of the city we don't know well, no toilets
anywhere and busting to go. We all somehow found some kind of semi-acceptable
solution that didn't involve shitting on someone's _fence_.

I have no idea why it's different in SF but these things just don't happen
elsewhere, so there must be some reason for it.

~~~
grandalf
SF attracts the most helpless, inept homeless, and there are not convenient
public restrooms in the parts of the city where there are lots of homeless.

Frankly, I'd rather walk by the occasional fence than risk going into a public
restroom after a homeless person has used it.

Evidently in the past there was a move to provide lots of public restroom
facilities in the city, but they were soon condemned and removed. It would
take significant resources to offer such facilities and keep them clean and
safe.

------
nazgulnarsil
it amazes me that people put up with living around poor people and their
disgusting habits. this guy chooses to live in a city where there is human
fecal matter on the ground as a matter of course.

------
vital101
I read an article yesterday (believe it was in the Times) about the Ipad. The
article itself was pretty underwhelming, but there was a part that stuck out
at me. The writer mentioned that he had a meeting with Steve Jobs. He comes in
to the conference room, and there is Steve with his black turtle neck and his
feet on the table.

<sarcasm>I mean if Steve Jobs does it then it must be alright.</sarcasm>

------
JCThoughtscream
I can understand putting your feet on the table if A. you're at home, B.
nobody else's gonna be using that desk, and C. you DON'T have company.
Otherwise, it's a goddamn pair of smelly feet you're sticking within nasal
range of somebody else. It doesn't matter what culture you're from - sniff it
yourself and see how much you like it!

------
callmeed
Are those first 2 paragraphs accurate? I haven't been to the bay area (save
for the airport) in a couple years.

------
aaronbrethorst
I'm tempted to send in a rant to Zed's new site entitled 'where's your fucking
atom feed?'

~~~
zedshaw
Damn! I forgot to put that back in the headers. Thanks man, I'll add that.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
hah, happy to be of assistance :)

------
antidaily
Well meaning, well said. However, keyboards and mice supposedly have more
germs on them then a toilet seat. So feet on desks probably isn't that big of
a deal.

Source: <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7377002.stm>

------
itjitj
Settle down, Francis.

------
n8agrin
It's funny he notices the shit. I always notice all the Rosemary bushes in SF.
Not implying anything just pointing out what I see.

------
dmoney
From the title, I was hoping this was some metaphor relating to code or
business.

------
ct
calm down -- it's not the end of the world

------
julius_geezer
Hey! What's the magic word?

------
sailormoon
If your shoes are so disgustingly dirty, I wouldn't bring them into the
home/office at all. Take them off at the door like asians do.

Then, of course, people would put their feet up in socks, and Zed would have
to come up with another token justification for why he doesn't like people
relaxing too ostentatiously in front of him.

------
Daniel_Newby
I want to see this guy's expression when somebody introduces him to a dog or a
toddler for the first time.

~~~
zedshaw
Yes, because a 10 paragraph rant full of hyperbole about something I found
funny is _totally_ a description of my mental health.

Truth is, most guys are disgusting pigs. If you think that what I wrote is
totally alright, then you're just proving that.

~~~
look_lookatme
You (possibly) don't agree with me, therefore you and the majority of men are
pigs.

Nice.

~~~
zedshaw
You (possibly) think rhetoric should always be a cohesive proof and therefore
fail at logic.

~~~
look_lookatme
Whatever works for you.

------
wooster
Oh, I'm sure they did. Are you a virgin?

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/awooster/4483136943/>

~~~
pistoriusp
This was the first thing I thought of when I read the article. Do you think
they don't get the reference to the movie?

P.S. This is a grab from a movie called "The Pirates of Silicon Valley." This
guy is supposed to be Steve Jobs and he's interviewing a guy in a suit who
works for IBM.

I can't find the quote; but this was funny -- From wikipedia:

Steve Jobs indirectly commented on the film during a practical joke at the
1999 Macworld Expo. This involved actor Noah Wyle (who portrays Jobs in the
film). Wyle impersonates Jobs during the keynote speech, something which only
becomes apparent when Jobs himself appears on the stage (to the wild applause
of the audience). He corrects Wyle's interpretation of him and tells the
audience that he "invited [Wyle] here today so he could see how I really act
and plus because he's a better me than me." Wyle responds, "Thank you, thank
you, I'm just glad you're not mad about the movie." Jobs laughs and states,
"What? Me upset? Hey it's just a movie. But you know if you do want to make
things right you could get me a little part on E.R." Then as Noah Wyle goes
away, he turns and asks Steve "Are you still a virgin?" quoting a part of the
film where Steve asks this to a guy who is being interviewed.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_Silicon_Valley>

