
The underappreciated power of common courtesy - rishikhullar
http://helloarchenemy.tumblr.com/post/47626827569/the-underappreciated-power-of-common-courtesy
======
edw519
I do not believe that common courtesy should have anything to do with properly
positioning oneself, scoring points, earning a good reputation, or anything
else remotely associated with a "zero-sum game".

We should be courteous for one reason only: because it's the right thing to
do.

The older I get, the more I realize how unimportant most details are and how
critical some of the big issues are. I don't think anyone said it better that
Hillel: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the
whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

~~~
zem
another quote i find really thought-provoking, and pretty relevant to the
current startup culture:

When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind
people. - Abraham Joshua Heschel

------
Anechoic
My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had
to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-
level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged
women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked
into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate
faculty office.

Whenever any of my (mostly male) coursemates talked about visiting the office,
they always referred to her as "bitch," "cunt," "hag" etc. I never understood
this - she had never been anything but nice and respectful to me. After one
interaction I witnessed between the secretary and another student, I finally
began to understand. Those other students really saw her as just a "secretary"
who had no business running interference between students that were clearly
her betters. I on the otherhand never went out of my way to ingratiate myself
to her, but I did treat her as a human worthy of the same respect as any other
faculty member, and I guess she noticed.

One year, I signed up for more classes than I intended to take with the
intention of auditing the classes, deciding what I wanted to take and then
dropping the excess classes before the drop date. I decided pretty quickly to
drop one of the classes, and therefore didn't attend any of the lectures or do
any of the coursework, but I procrastinated in getting the signature of my
adviser to drop the class.

Eventually the drop date loomed, and I realized I had only a couple of days to
get that signature. I walked into the MechE office, exchanged pleasantries
with the secretary and asked to see my adviser. "Oh I'm sorry," she replied
"he's out of the country for the next two weeks." She saw from my reaction
that something was wrong, and I explained that if I didn't get my adviser's
signature on the drop form ASAP, I'd fail the class. She smiled and told me
that in situations like that she actually had discretionary power to sign
forms on behalf of absent professors. She asked for the form, signed it (in
her name) and gave it back to me. I was all set. A year after that, I handed
in my thesis and forgot to sign a form. She called me and waited after hours
for me to run down to the office to sign the form so I could graduate on time.
All because I treated her like a human being.

I later told some of my coursemates about that, and they had absolutely no
idea she had that kind of power. I like to think that maybe they started
treating her a little better after learning what a little courtesy can
accomplish. But I certainly learned that "little people" can hold great power
that can be wielded in your favor if you just treat them like you want to be
treated.

~~~
sneak
It sort of sucks that your TL;DR is "you never know what people might be able
to do for you, so be nice".

Just fucking be nice to people. It's not always about what they can do for
you.

~~~
Anechoic
_It's not always about what they can do for you._

I get what you're saying, but I will admit that I am respectful (not
necessarily _nice_ , but generally respectful) to people exactly because of
what they can do for me - in my case, I want them be be respectful back to me.
In the example I wrote about, I was pleasantly surprised there was a bonus to
being nice/respectful and that experience has stuck with me, but that wasn't
what I was looking for.

I treat people they way I would like them to treat me, so yes, I am looking
for them to do something for me. Selfish? Perhaps, but it makes for pleasant
interactions and I see that as a win.

------
davidroberts
From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my
children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't
go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how
to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are
all doing pretty well.

Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you
do. It gives you a huge edge. I don't understand why people don't do it. Maybe
they grew up in an environment where courtesy is taken as weakness. Or maybe
they are so convinced of their own merit that they feel there is no need to be
nice to the "little people." Either way, they are seriously handicapping their
future happiness.

Courtesy offers so much gain for so little effort. From smiling and holding
the door open for someone at the supermarket to giving a considerate reply to
someone who went to the trouble to come in for an interview, courtesy makes
life better for everyone. The return smile and sincere thank you from the
person at the supermarket brightens your whole day. The rejected candidate who
received your thoughtful message might be the exact fit for a later job.

Similar to the quote in the original article, I believe you can learn a lot
about a person by how they treat the hired help, whether it be at work or in a
restaurant or hotel. If someone has no power of retribution, even if you are a
selfish jerk, and you still treat them kindly, it's a pretty good sign you
aren't a selfish jerk. On the other hand, if you are considering a future
spouse or employer, and they treat servers and underlings like trash, someday
they will treat you like trash too.

Courtesy is karma. You give to others, it always comes back to you.

~~~
Mz
I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot.

I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without
expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence
of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a
case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it.
I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere, like I am stupidly
casting pearls before swine or something.

I can't figure out why I keep getting used and walked on. I can't figure out
how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial
benefit in a business way. I strongly suspect part of it is that I am female
and a lot of people seem to see me as motherly and seem to think "motherly"
means I should cut my own throat for their benefit.

At this point, articles of this sort just kind of piss me off. If going around
being nice and helpful really paid, I should be a rich woman by now. But
somehow that just does not happen for me. I wonder if women need some opposite
message, if this message benefits those who already know all about extracting
value from others.

I don't know the answer. I just know that reading stuff like this feels like
salt in very raw wounds for me.

~~~
mistermann
> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without
> expecting anything in return

> I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed
> good karma to financial benefit in a business way.

Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child
with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.

Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop needing recognition from
others to fulfill your self-esteem. Do nice things for others without
expecting something in return _genuinely_ , rather than just paying lip
service to it, which is precisely what you are doing.

> I just know that reading stuff like this feels like salt in very raw wounds
> for me.

If my intuition is not incorrect, this is as it should be. You are doing it
wrong.

But then again, maybe I've misjudged you, who knows. It has little effect on
my life whether I am right or wrong. It has an enormous effect on yours, as
you seem to be currently experiencing. If I was you I'd stop and think very
carefully about whether there is perhaps some truth here.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled
child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.

Wow. Don't you think that you are judging her a bit too harshly, especially
since (like you admit) you have very limited data?

And then people wonder why there are so few women in tech. People like you are
part of the reason.

~~~
mistermann
Are you implying women are somehow different than men? That we should
mollycoddle them, lest we hurt their gentle feelings? I doubt that's how she'd
like to be treated, but again, I'm speculating.

~~~
Mz
I am not interested in being mollycoddled. I am also not interested in being
pissed on. Those are not the only two options available for social discourse.

------
ErrantX
It depresses me how negative out society can sometimes be, and lack of common
courtesy is one of the biggest culprits.

I was always brought up to be polite, even to people who didn't deserve it -
and especially to people who you didn't know well enough to form an opinion.
The number of people who reject this approach and just act like everyone else
is crap is sad.

My experience of this was, following graduation from university, going to the
job centre. I was looking for a mundane job for a year to earn some travelling
money. My "advisor" treated me like an idiot, and a failure - constantly
asking why I was "incapable of finding a graduate job". The idea that I didn't
actually want a "career" quite then seemed beyond her.

What a weird situation; I was a pretty smart guy, with a very strong
engineering degree, being treated like an idiot by someone with very weak
academic credentials. I didn't care what she was qualified in (she made a
point of having the certificate on her wall, I think it was a foundation
course in arts) so long as she was competent at her job; but ''by her own
value system'' I was several steps above her on the ladder, even jobless.

She made a point of being a jerk about my unusual choice, rather than simple
getting over her disdain and helping me out!

In the end I walked out on the principle of it. Being treated like crap is
demoralising.

That was an important life lesson, and ever since I've made extra effort to
treat people as human beings.

------
simonbarker87
I went to a boarding school for my A-Levels where it was a rule that you had
to say hello to everyone you passed in the corridors, it was enforced by those
in charge 100% of the time and it felt weird at the beginning but after a
couple of months and a weekend spent out in the "real world" it made us
realise how nice exchanging a simple "hello" could be. On top of this it was
expected that you would be nice to and treat all members of staff, from the
cleaners and laundry staff to the principle and commanding officer (military
college), with respect.

This has left a lasting impression on me and I try to always show courtesy to
everyone, when meeting investors and clients I always make a point of thanking
the person sorting the drinks, having a quick chat with the
receptionist/secretary/cleaner, and generally "taking an interest". I also
have no problem apologising if I've messed up or caused someone extra hassle.

I'm not sure how much it helps in the grand scheme of things but it sure makes
the day more enjoyable and pleseant.

~~~
tomjen3
In (elementry) school I had the habit of saying good morning when I showed up
- pretty basic and I didn't think anybody particularily cared, until my mom
told me that the teacher had been told by one of the parents how much that
simple good morning meant for their child.

So yeah, simple curtesy matters -- that said I don't think I would be that
happy if every stranger were saying hello to me on the street; it would
quickly become overwelling.

------
hjay
This really hits home. I had a few emails back and forth with the co-
founder/CTO of a fairly successful startup that tried to recruit me back in
January. We had a short Skype session, he basically "strung me along", vaguely
brought up a homework assignment, and never got back. Like the author of this
post, I emailed him back and checked for an update, but never got a response.

And to think I actually referred people to use their service before. Since
this incident, I have lost a ton of respect for this person specifically. Not
because we were not a good fit for each other, but because of the 360 degree
change in attitude once he had no use for you. A bit sad to say this person is
probably on HN too.

In contrast, his email responses while trying to recruit me originally were
always within 24 hours, usually between 5~25 minutes. Fairly lengthy emails
too. It's not that difficult to let someone know if you don't think you (and
I) are not the best fit for each other. Show some respect.

------
alexholehouse
An acquaintance recently made a facebook update describing how they belittled
and berated a coffee shop employee for making a (fairly bad, to be fair)
mistake regarding change on a $20.

I seriously considered leaving my office and going to the coffee shop to
apologize for this person's behavior, and I personally am finished with this
individual in both a social and professional context. There is pretty much
nothing I find more offensive than rudeness when people make a mistake.

~~~
joonix
What it comes down to is empathy. Empathetic people are able to put themselves
in the shoes of others and understand their circumstances and use logic to
rationalize their own emotions. In the long run, this type of person is better
to work with. That's why they say look at how someone treats a waiter. An
empathetic person understands the waiter made a mistake because they are
overloaded with tables or their mind is frazzled because they're working their
second job of the day with a sick kid at home. The person who lacks empathy
will only suspect pure incompetence or malice as the cause and have an
outburst or berate the terrible service.

------
incision
>“You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can
do nothing for him.” — Malcom S. Forbes

Think that over the next time you find yourself in disagreement with someone
over differing opinions of a third person.

In my experience, more often than not, the above quote will explain
everything.

Over the years, I've worked with way too many people are delightful to their
peers, but a blatant jackasses to the folks who empty their trash.

------
obviouslygreen
The article makes a good point (it's much more nuanced and interesting than
its title, on which I was prepared to make a judgment immediately; I'm glad I
did not).

It's worth looking at in the context of the post it references, though [1];
several very useful and valid responses were made by people citing the
practical issues with responding to every inquiry from every applicant.

Granted, I don't believe that applies to the author's anecdote, but they do
both have a place in the same discussion.

[1] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5518881>

------
snowwrestler
I'll share two insights I've learned over time about courtesy.

1) Being courteous, over the long term, gives you power. There have been a
number of initiatives I've been able to get done at work, that others could
not, simply because colleagues give me a greater benefit of the doubt. They do
so because I have always treated them very well, even when we disagree.

2) To be truly courteous, you must be very organized. If you're unorganized,
it's easy to lose track of things--and it will be impossible to keep track of
the many niceties of small interactions. But these are what add up, over time,
to a great reputation.

Number 2 is an insight I have learned (and continue to learn) the hard way.

~~~
itsybitsycoder
Do you have any recommendations for how to stay organized enough that you can
keep track of these things?

~~~
simonbarker87
I'm not sure if this is help or stating the obvious but I've found that
consciously making the effort to remember stuff and record it in my mind goes
a long way to staying organised on this front. I found the best way to start
was with people's names, when someone says "Hi, I'm X" I try to response with
"Hi X, it's good to meet you, I'm Simon". Just this simple repetition of their
name goes a long way to committing it to memory, if you can say it a couple
more times in the conversation you won't forget it again.

------
chrisbennet
I can sympathize with the poster for calling out this sort of rudeness but I'm
also torn.

Rude behavior is a powerful "tell" or signal that gives you insight into how
that party may behavior in the future. As he notes, he's going to avoid them
in the future.

Now suppose they "get the message" that this behavior makes them look bad and
institute some sort of "fake" courtesy; that signal will be lost. Personally,
I'd rather not tell the jerks of the world that they have a sign on their back
that says "I'm Jerk".

------
dpolaske
I know exactly what you mean, I'm in the middle of the application process
right now. When companies have a poor level of communication with me as a
candidate, I definitely rethink my interest in them.

------
spitx
Courtesy without consequence, clout or wherewithal is a dud.

Let me unpack that a bit:

People walk all over courteous people especially when they wield no social
clout or when the person is of little consequence, in general.

Courtesy is too often taken -- in North American circles these days -- to be a
dose of deference paid in advance for a future (and usually much larger)
reciprocal dose of consideration or favor of some kind.

In short, unless you wield considerable worth ( of some kind ) no one's going
to rule in your favor -- and against a much more formidable party -- owing to
your courteousness.

It's unfortunate.

~~~
tomjen3
How is me saying good morning going to mean that everybody will run over me?

Don't mistake curtesey from not standing up for your rights or agreeing to
things you don't actually agreed with -- a "no, sorry I am not going to be
able to come in on the weekend" is curtious, yet also standing up for your
self -- "I don't work weekends" accomplish the same, but is less curtius.

~~~
spitx
I think some of the confusion in this whole thread would go away if people
submitted their takes on where ( for them ) courtesy ends and firmness or
assertiveness or strictness in demeanor towards others begins.

Where exactly are they willing to end their train of courteous acts and begin
being very stiff in their gives and takes with society.

We tend to hold important / formidable / consequential people higher in regard
than nice / courteous / generous people.

It is very very rare that one finds those both diametrical qualities in the
same person.

A person is either a degree more assertive than he or she is courteous. Or
alternately a degree less assertive. Never the same degree in both.

I'll go as far as to say that there can be no one like that.

That degree makes all the difference in how he or she is perceived and
weighed.

As they say, some people are admired and liked and others are feared and
viewed at, in awe.

I will leave it to you to decide which of the two is more durable and
desirable.

