
Advanced Placement – Because We Don't Trust Teachers - zamansky
http://cestlaz.github.io/posts/ap-we-dont-trust-teachers/#.Vy3PekoaAjE.hackernews
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michaelt
Here in the UK, all high school exams are set by exam boards, which are
independent of the schools (the schools get a choice and can offer exams from
a mixture of exam boards - so if one exam board is messing up too badly
schools can just choose another).

That seems like common sense to me - it makes sure anyone looking at someone's
grades knows an A from a poor inner city school is the same as an A from the
most prestigious private school. How else would you stop standards getting out
of alignment at different schools and across the country?

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superuser2
If you look at the states'-rights arguments for why schools should be
controlled and funded at the hyper-local rather than federal level, it seems
many people in the US believe standards _should_ be out of alignment across
the country. People with political power honestly believe that kids in
Kentucky ought to be educated differently than kids in Wisconsin.

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gozur88
That seems pretty reasonable to me, though I don't think you're stating the
position very clearly. It's more that people in Kentucky want control over the
schools in Kentucky (which, you know, they're paying for) and don't really
care what people in Wisconsin want to do with schools in Wisconsin. And vice
versa.

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superuser2
Sure, and wanting control is definitely what's really going on. What's curious
is when the _argument_ for wanting control is a belief that the appropriate
education differs based on geography.

~~~
gozur88
How many people do you see making that argument?

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tinalumfoil
I can only speak as someone who has gone through (the pain that was) High
School, including many AP courses but I have to strongly disagree with this
article.

> I usually use phrases like "society doesn't trust" but let's personalize it
> this time – for parents, think about whether or not you trust your kids
> teachers? Do you a large private, unaccountable organization more?

In my experience College Board is infinitely more accountable than any of the
teachers. The AP tests are graded anonymously, with graders blinded to student
and school. I've literally had teachers give me different credit for nearly
the same work as another student because they "just didn't get the feeling I
understood the material" or some thinly veiled attempt at saying the didn't
like me. Looking back I wouldn't trust some of my teachers to wash my car let
alone determine my future.

> You trust your child's teacher with your child's well being every day but
> you don't trust him to say whether or not your kid knows calculus?

If your kid can't take care of his own well-being by High School you've failed
as a parent. If you think it's your job to take care of your student's well-
being, you've failed as a teacher. You're supposed to teach them, not change
their diapers.

> Then you teach the class and in May, one to two months before the end of the
> semester the kids take the AP exam - you don't see results until the summer.

This is the only point I can partially agree with. Having your entire score
come down to one test adds a lot of variables, but in the age of testing this
isn't just limited to APs. Thankfully there's enough data you send to college
that a single bad data point doesn't hurt too much. And if you really
understand the material, retaking a course isn't that bad.

~~~
zamansky
What you're describing isn't accountability. It's unbiased grading. Grading
can be done blind without the college board.

Who does the college board answer to?

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fanzhang
It's worth noting that the author here seems to be a teacher.

One design feature of AP classes is to indeed remove some discretion from
teachers. This is a drawback when you have amazing teachers, and a godsend if
you have bad or just plain lazy teachers. This is the same pattern as checks-
and-balances vs dictators.

Since APs are a control mechanism for teachers then, I would take the
article's opinion of APs with a grain of salt. A much more neutral party would
be that of a student: a bad test causes pain similar to a bad teacher.

The good news about the student point of view is that most people here can
draw from personal experience -- real data.

He cites an AP Calc teacher who was really stellar but got punished by not
covering enough material by the time of the AP test.

In your experience, what fraction reflects that AP Calc example above (where
discretion is used well at the detriment of the test), and what fraction
reflect teachers using discretion badly (and getting caught by the test)? For
me the ratio is like 1:3 if not 1:5.

I am open to the idea that there may be good ways to give teachers more
discretion in positive ways, but I think it really needs to be acknowledged
that APs exist in the first place to solve a problem, a problem that can't
just be waved away without convincing data that show an alternative system
performs better.

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zamansky
I'm the guy that wrote the article and yep - I'm a teacher. Really good points
here. I already know the answers with respect to my school and schools of
friends and colleagues but that is a small sample and not necessarily
representative. It's part of what colors my opinion and yes - I agree, one
should take everything with a grain of salt.

I know for teachers of APCS (my subject), they used to have a large case study
to cover. Teacher's for which the case study fit naturally into their teaching
approach, it worked pretty well. For people like myself and many friends and
colleagues, it was a large 100 page document with all sorts of ins and outs
that took time from teaching, you know, CS.

To your point, a weaker or less knowledgeable CS teacher would probably end up
using the case study as a support which could be a good thing.

I guess this also brings a question of depth to mind - in AP Calc, should kids
be proving and deriving or memorizing. I'm in the prove and derive camp but a
lot of people think otherwise.

Anyway - thanks for your comment here - would you mind cut and pasting it over
on the blog - I think it's a really good point and would love to save it for
posterity and future readers.

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danshapiro
I wish more of my children's education required two well-qualified parties to
agree before being implemented.

That doesn't mean I trust either party more than the other; it means I want
two people to sign off on major decisions, without me having to judge which is
more credible.

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germinalphrase
What aspects of your child's education would you feel should fall under this
"two party" rule? Where does that professional trust break down?

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russell
All well and good if your kids are from a school known to the admissions
department at the colleges they are applying to, otherwise the AP courses,
with all their flaws, are a reasonable compromise that gets them college
credit.

My kids took a different route when faced with a truly incompetent high school
calculus teacher. My wife convinced the high school to allow them to take
courses at the local community college for both high school and college
credit. The courses were approved by the University of California so there was
no issue about transfer of credits.

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zamansky
Colleges don't see AP scores until after a student is admitted so admissions
only sees the fact that the kid is in the class. Also, from what I can tell,
admissions offices do have a pretty good feel for the schools they read for.

Once a kid is accepted, schools already give placement tests so that takes
care of that issue.

On the credit front, I think partnering with a college would yield better
results (like what you did).

I also wonder how much the credits mean - if a kid can knock off a full
semester, it's obviously a big saving but given the way colleges charge
undergrads - a fixed amount for a varying number of credits, at the end of the
day, I wonder if it makes much of a difference for a kid that gets a small
handful of credits.

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argonaut
1) AP exams can be taken independent of whether you've taken the class. A high
school freshman can take any AP exam.

2) It's common in competitive high schools for students to start taking AP
classes in junior year (or even sophomore year), so top colleges definitely do
see AP scores for most of the top 30% of students applying.

For me, AP credit was huge. It let me skip calculus in college and a bunch of
other very time-consuming classes (foreign language, etc.). Instead, it
cleared up my schedule so by the end of college I was able to take multiple
graduate CS classes.

