
Who’s at risk for obsessive healthy eating? Toronto research sheds light - okket
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/who-s-at-risk-for-obsessive-healthy-eating-toronto-research-sheds-light-1.4421908
======
reallymental
It's chilling when you see a description of what you are doing, online, in a
random click that you just made.

I have OCD, and hide it well. Looks like I have ON and have not hid it well at
all. I run obsessively, eat extremely clean and have been struggling to even
eat things that are outside my "normal" diet ever since the stress at work and
relationships have increased.

I figured it was something I needed to research when I felt _bad_ for eating a
sandwich after a 56 mile bike ride. But I never did, maybe because I didn't
want to know the answer.

Oh well, the more you know...

My OCD has increased as well. They're definitely connected.

Edit: grammar and some spaces.

~~~
gerbilly
Anorexia nervosa and excessive exercise seem to be causally linked.¹

If you want to cure someone of anorexia, you will usually have more success if
you both eliminate the excessive exercise and address the eating behaviour at
the same time.

For some reason, it seems as if each behaviour somehow supports the other, and
to break the cycle, you have to address both.

Also if you or anyone has an eating disorder, take it seriously and seek
treatment. Eating disorders have the highest death rate of any mental
disorder.

1: When researchers restrict rats’ food intake while giving them unlimited
access to a wheel, the rats start running excessively. Paradoxically, these
rats opt to continue running rather than eat during the short intervals of
time food is made available to them. If allowed, they will literally run
themselves to death. ([https://www.verywellmind.com/excessive-exercise-eating-
disor...](https://www.verywellmind.com/excessive-exercise-eating-disorder-
symptom-4062773))

~~~
reallymental
I wonder why its unethical to test such things on human beings. I'm assuming
it's unethical, because there rarely seems to be any damn work on this using
humans.

Those rats ran themselves to death, will we humans? We share about 92% of the
genes[0] (on the first google attempt), what changes does that giant 8%
contain?

Just pick up people like me, and make us run and give us food.

I doubt we will object if it means there's a possibility that we might help
ourselves.

Are they afraid they'll make it worse? Sure that's a possibility, but that's
the price to pay. I'm willing to pay that price if it means people after me,
who have this wire crossed in their brains will be served better healthcare in
the future.

Some experiments might not work, but we've just discovered another way to
_not_ make the lightbulb, but the good news is that the lightbulb _will_ be
made if we try n times.

[0] [https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-
you/genetics-101/geneti...](https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-
you/genetics-101/genetic-similarities-of-mice-and-men/)

~~~
gowld
It's far cheaper to run an experiment on 100 rats than 100 people, and it's
unethical to let people run themselves to _death_ obviously.

It's not unethical to watch people run and eat -- Gatorade/UF exercise lab
does this stuff all day long. Obviously it's unethical to let you continue to
do so if adverse health effects are observed.

~~~
gerbilly
> it's unethical to let people run themselves to death obviously.

It's also unethical to let rats run themselves to death, and it wouldn't pass
an ethics review board if you suggested an experiment like that these days.

~~~
pvaldes
So the truth is that rats could run themselves to death (seems unlikely) or
maybe could stop at some point before, when some metabolite reachs some level
or falls under some level. Impossible to know it because... taboo.

Even if this information could help to understand better anorexia nervosa in
humans.

Maybe we should do the experiment with running thumbleweed instead.

------
relative-energy
I'm glad there's a label for this that's not attached to the previous
connotations of "anorexia." I'm a guy who struggled with eating disorder
symptoms for most of my life, and hid them for fear of attaching AN stigma to
myself.

Last year I got serious about researching the biology of eating disorders, and
I'm convinced now that in 40 years we'll think of anorexia and its cousins
more like type I diabetes than a mental disorder.

For example: did you know that it's possible to induce self-starvation and
hyperactivity (hallmarks of eating disorders) in mice [1]? It's been known to
science since the 1950s, but this fact is curiously absent in popular
understanding of eating disorders.

This new understanding led me to start a recovery project, and happily it's
working out: I've finally got relief from the awful mental fixations (like
those described in this article).

[1] [https://relative-
energy.tumblr.com/post/183390573416/activit...](https://relative-
energy.tumblr.com/post/183390573416/activity-based-anorexia-and-animal-models)

~~~
braindouche
Oh this is interesting. This behavior is fairly common knowledge among cat
people: if you have an adult cat that's being persistently hyperactive and
displaying increased hunting/pouncing in a manner that's out of character for
your cat, you need to take your cat to the vet for a checkup, your cat
probably has dental problems and isn't eating.

What I'd like to know is why this reaction isn't more common among humans. I'm
a fat person who's tried calorie restriction and all it does is make me tired
and depressed. I suspect there's a good reason for that, and it has a lot to
do with why I'm a fat person in the first place.

~~~
dan00
> What I'd like to know is why this reaction isn't more common among humans.
> I'm a fat person who's tried calorie restriction and all it does is make me
> tired and depressed. I suspect there's a good reason for that, and it has a
> lot to do with why I'm a fat person in the first place.

There're interesting stories about people changing their weight after a stool
transplantation, without changing their diet.

The bacteria in the gut seems to have a deep impact how food is utilized, even
which kind of food is preferred and how you feel eating it, but it also seems
to work the other way around, that the food effects the kind of bacteria in
the gut.

It makes perfect sense to work this way, on one side you prefer food you can
better utilize, on the other your body is able to adapt to the available food.

So changing the bacteria eating different food should also be possible, but
the change might be quite unpleasant, you certainly won't feel that well, it
might take some time and you need quite a bit of will power to get through.

~~~
JamesBarney
Unfortunately the studies on stool transplants didn't replicate.

------
fjsolwmv
> They also discovered that vegetarians and vegans were at higher risk.

Surely it's far more likely that the causation goes the other way? Or is there
a hypothesis that trying vegetarianism promoted overthinking / overcaring
about diet?

I suspect this isn't very specifically an eating disorder, but that it's an
obsessive compulsive or zealotry disorder where food just happens to be a
target.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Sounds like something that requires further research, however, I do see how
vegetarians / vegans (or anyone following a specific diet for that matter)
become a lot more mindful of what they eat, or what they "are allowed to" eat.

------
ddxxdd
Questions I had after reading the article:

1\. Is there any reason why these researchers are focusing on an unhealthy
obsession with healthy eating, instead of an unhealthy obsession with [x: x ∈
anything], or just unhealthy obsessions in general?

2\. Are there enough people with this disorder to classify it as a disorder?

3\. Why are "Lacto-vegetarians" at the highest risk? What is it about drinking
milk that makes people want to be extremely healthy?

\----

Answers I received after reading the link to the University Press Release:

1\. It's basically a disorder for people whom are relapsing from a previous
eating disorder. Although it's gender-neutral for some reason.

~~~
cormacrelf
You could classify lots of things as 'unhealthy obsessions' but then you'd
just have a group of disorders, it wouldn't help you treat them. Clearly even
two kinds of obsessive eating patterns are different enough to warrant
different analysis. For example, there are a great many more practical ways
you can act on ON than AN, and being health-obsessed might have less social
stigma so the patterns leading to it might be harder to pick out as problems.
If you want to treat these people on their terms and in ways that make sense,
you have to drill down and deconstruct the specific phenomena.

There is a place for general obsession research, of course, but examining why
people congregate around this one is obviously helpful to that goal anyway.
What exactly about healthy eating makes it attractive to obsessive tendencies?
The commonalities and differences compared to AN are surely going to be
valuable.

We programmers like to abstract over things, but tons of good work in science
involves just having a go at at one thing until it is better understood.

------
not_a_moth
This is tricky. If you believe that glycemic variability (or avoiding insulin
spikes) is a major factor in longevity, or if you believe the same for
periodic or intermittent fasting, it will in fact "interfere with your normal
life" or "make it hard to go out eating with others" as the researchers
described. But those challenges are still the right thing to do if you
subscribe to that science.

I think the researchers are imaging hardline discipline and re-structuring of
normal dining affairs without any element of "obsession", even though the
latter is probably required at some dosage to be effective, in the same way
you obsess over, say, technology X when you need to be good at it.

~~~
elil17
Even if you do accept that disordered eating behavior leads to a longer life,
that doesn’t mean that it’s the right thing to do. If someone is spending
years of their life with increased social isolation, decreased free time, and
decreased enjoyment of food, just to live marginally longer, is that a
rational choice?

For me, it wasn’t a rational choice at all - it was an anxiety response to
food with a good justification (health) that people around me were willing to
accept. In retrospect, I realize how much I was missing out on. Life’s much
better now that foods something I can enjoy and now that eating can be a
social experience.

~~~
not_a_moth
I can't accept the label “disordered eating”, given it's based on how people
ate for millennia and the underlying mechanisms therein.

There's of course room for middle ground. For example, I had a dinner I cared
about, the host cooked lasagna, and I didn’t want to reject the host’s cooking
or draw that kind of attention to myself. I know you can render your body in
an insulin sensitive state if you do a muscle-glycogen depleting workout
before, so I just did some weights after work and could enjoy the gathering
guilt free.

Definitely about health span too, not just lifespan. Ie invest now so at 60
you feel like 40, and can pick up (great)grandkids let alone be able to tie
your shoes in your 90s.

~~~
JamesBarney
Disordered eating isn't about the eating. It's about the thought process and
obsession behind it.

So the thought process you described is similar to orthorexia except the
feeling of guilt is more powerful so it has a more powerful effect on
behavior. For instance missing loved ones birthday's and avoiding go outing
much at all in order to make sure you only eat the healthy food.

------
rofo1
There is no need to obsess over anything when you better your habits. You will
eat good, because that'll be your "standard", your habit, your go-to mode,
your default.

If you only eat good/clean when you are pushing yourself to eat clean, you are
doing it wrong and eventually you'll give up and gain back all the weight.
Inevitable.

Also, as someone that has very low bodyfat (6/8 pack for years), there is
absolutely no need to eat clean 100% of the time.

I'd say that if you eat 90% cleanly of the time, you are golden.

There are ways to make your food delicious without adding huge amounts of
calories (think of spices, etc.)

All it takes is some common sense, and some (very little) knowledge of
nutrition to eat healthy. I would say that anyone can learn this, in less than
a month.

Also, I suggest anyone (that hasn't done this) to count their calories for a
month, and be meticulous about it - you _will_ learn a lot. Afterwards, you
will _not_ have to count calories - your estimation will be good enough.

About the habits and "converting" to a better lifestyle? That I don't know. I
don't understand why is it so hard for people. It seems like it is, even for
people that know everything about it. That I can't explain.

~~~
elliekelly
> There is no need to obsess over anything when you better your habits.

That's not how orthorexia nervosa works. It's not an "obsession" in the
colloquial way you're using the term but an actual pathological obsession. A
diagnosable mental health condition. Your comment is incredibly insensitive (I
hope because you only bothered to read the title) and is the equivalent of
telling someone with a cold that there's no need to cough.

~~~
rofo1
I stand behind what I wrote, cause that's the truth. I can't understand anyone
being offended by it.

Not a fan of the way we are blowing things out of proportion so much these
days.

Eating right is not that difficult. It's not difficult AT ALL. The mere fact
that we are discussing this is insane, to me.

There was a point of time in history where civilizations routinely starved to
death - THAT was difficult.

Having the most abundant choice, and voluntarily picking the wrong one, all
the time, all day every day - I just can't sympathize with that and call it
"difficult".

Especially if you know what you are doing. And you must know, cause you'd
figure it out by the results pretty quickly. (Not _you_ in particular, it's a
general statement)

------
mediocrejoker
I don't understand why the general tone of this article is "Did you know
disordered healthy eating is possible" but the review of literature found that
most of the studies are of poor quality, and furthermore the DSM does not
recognize this condition as an eating disorder.

Am I missing something or isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

~~~
cormacrelf
If you were trying to turn your scientific community around and make them pay
attention to an issue when they hadn't been, isn't "Guys this thing is real"
the tone you would take? The lit review is used to show that not enough
research $ are being poured to get good science, but you can't convince the $
to flow if people don't think it exists. You don't have to prove the disorder
exists to a peer-reviewed standard before they let you try to do exactly that.
You can start with anecdotes if you want. These folks started with a meta-
analysis of risk factors, which looks fine to me.

------
code_duck
I became obsessed with label-reading and healthy foods because I had a serious
problem with feeling ill from food. It turned out it had nothing to do with
organicness, preservatives, additives or much else besides that I had
undiagnosed celiac disease and a couple food allergies.

I was a vegetarian for a while because I found I felt better. This was
probably a coincidence related to the meals I prepared being gluten-free.

“They also discovered that vegetarians and vegans were at higher risk.“ seems
backwards - isn’t it more that hypertrexia makes one more likely to become a
vegan or vegetarian?

------
atomical
There is a question as to whether this is a real disorder. Eating healthy and
convincing others to do so isn't a sin.

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-orthorexia-a-real-
eating...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-orthorexia-a-real-eating-
disorder/)

~~~
DanBC
Whenever researchers talk about any mental disorders you need to add the
phrase "...which interferes with their day to day life, and causes harm or
distress".

These people are not eating healthily, they have an obsession with "healthy"
food that interfere with their day to day life and causes harm or distress.

That harm may be from something like REDS (Anna Boniface has written useful
stuff about that), or it may be over-training or food restrictions.

~~~
gowld
Sometimes 'disorder' means "behaving in a way that annoys other people".

[https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/personality-d...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/personality-disorders/symptoms-causes/syc-20354463)

~~~
DanBC
For information about the label of PD I like _Meeting the Challenge, Making a
Difference_ , because it was coproduced by people with the label.

[https://www.crisiscareconcordat.org.uk/inspiration/meeting-t...](https://www.crisiscareconcordat.org.uk/inspiration/meeting-
the-challenge-making-a-difference)

I think you've been unfairly downvoted. I don't think you're saying "people
who have this label are annoying", I think you're saying "health care
professionals who struggle with a patient are likely to say it's the patient's
fault, because that patient has a PD".

~~~
atomical
Isn't talking about downvotes prohibited on here?

