

The Computer Science Mismatch - Baustin
http://blog.smartbear.com/software-quality/bid/227066/The-Computer-Science-Mismatch

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rm999
A computer science degree isn't the only way to get a good
software/programming job. In fact, I think doing a more quantitative major
like applied math or engineering with a base education of 3-4 CS classes
(programming, algorithms, data structures, maybe an applied high-level lab
class) would serve many people better. If you have the mind for it learning a
language and applying it to problems in your speciality isn't hard and can be
done outside a class.

~~~
pnathan
I have never seen a replacement for the algorithmic study outside of a CS
degree. It can be approximated by theoretical Math degrees, however. I have a
strong bias towards CS/math graduates because of this. Self-taught individuals
frequently have a terrible time grasping these concepts and difficulty picking
up the language that is taught in CS classes. (n.b.: I don't know WHY this is.
Certainly its right there in the textbooks and on Wikipedia. But its been my
experience that it is so.)

Also, outside of the hotspots, programming jobs are scarce as hens' teeth.
Would not recommend living or going to school outside of a hotspot in 2013.

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toomuchtodo
I'm in Chicago trying to higher ops engineers for $70K who are already making
$80-90K, and Java devs with 1-3 years experience who are already making
$100-120K. What is this "job scarcity" you speak of?

~~~
pnathan
Well, you might try looking outside of metro areas to see it. I'd suggest
recruiting in the Dakotas/Montana/Wyoming.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I'm searching nationwide, using Dice, LinkedIn, Craigslist (international
nationwide aggregator built for internal talent search!), and StackExchange.

While I've harped about companies allowing telecommuting, the startup I'm at
is not my own, and does require people to be onsite (for the time being).

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wfunction
> You might also think colleges would be expanding their departments
> proportionately, since even with higher numbers of students, the
> universities aren’t anywhere close to filling industry demand.

Why is that a bad thing? If high demand was to cause a proportionately high
supply, then in 15 years we'd find ourselves having too many coders looking
for a job.

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tenpoundhammer
I find this article to be mostly bogus, while recruiters are working hard to
bring in talent it's rarely with competing salaries or incentives that people
actually want.

Increasingly companies are centralizing and reducing the locations in which
they will allow employees to work. While those same employees are placing a
higher value on staying close to their families and developing interpersonal
relationships.

If you need to find an employee and having a hard time offer more money or
expand the area in which employees can work so you have a larger pool of
candidates!

If you are a company that truly needs specialized talent, then create it. Stop
whining that it doesn't magically appear on your doorstep. Hire someone, train
them, and then pay them a retention bonus so they don't leave.

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andybak
Stop obsessing about college degrees for the 90% of coding jobs that don't
require complex algorithmic work. Hire smart people and train them on the job
or hire smart motivated self-learners.

~~~
bluedino
How do you find the 'smart people'? (not that a college degree implies that
someone is smart). Being 'smart' isn't enough to get the job done.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Time and effort. They don't magically appear. There is no webapp for it. You
WILL have to spend a significant amount of time to find these people. It's
probably also why you should be spending whatever you can to hold onto them
once you have them.

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k8si
At University of Massachusetts, you can't get into the CS degree program
straight off--you have to take the first 2-3 intro courses, prove you're a)
dedicated to CS and b) able to do the work, then they let you in. So if you
spend your first year taking gen-eds and getting good grades in your CS
classes, you're fine. I think it's a good system.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> So if you spend your first year taking gen-eds and getting good grades in
> your CS classes, you're fine.

Isn't that kind of a general rule of thumb for just about any major/direction
in college?

~~~
sbov
In my college you got accepted by the department before you took a single
class. I think most work this way.

Sure, I took mostly gen-ed and low level CS classes the first year or so, but
I was already accepted to the CS department while doing so.

~~~
Taylorious
My college was like this as well. I think the basic idea is that you will sink
or swim. If you can't make it in the program then that's your problem. I don't
really see the point in limiting who can take part in the program. They get my
money and I get to try, whether I succeed or not is totally up to me.

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coldcode
These types of articles only make sense in Boston, NY, Seattle or Silicon
Valley kind of places. In middle America generally few people compete for
new/any programmers at a level that would inspire an article.

~~~
bluedino
In middle America, businesses don't realize that you don't need a Computer
Science degree to be a systems administrator, much less a CRUD app developer.

It's weird that the same society who thinks "little Johnny is good with
computers, he can do x/y/z" has trouble even letting little Johnny get an
interview if he doesn't have a CS degree.

~~~
vonmoltke
They also don't realize that you don't need 5+ years of experience in their
specific alphabet soup of languages, platforms, and frameworks to do those
jobs effectively.

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pyrocat
Nice to get an Informatics shout out, even if it's presented as a computer
science 2nd choice. It's a wonderful program that blends code, design, and
user experience, with a sprinkling of library science and business ethics. I
couldn't think of a better degree for an aspiring entrepreneur.

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CodeCube
I'd just like to say that I'm extremely grateful to be working as a programmer
right now. Of course, everyone else is, but I started my career right after
the .com bust when all I read was how there were tons of new compsci graduates
who couldn't find work (I was gainfully employed the whole time
professionally).

So, no real comment other than to express my gratitude to be working at a time
when so many others in other fields aren't. Hopefully the music keeps playing
and we keep circling the chairs. :)

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lifeformed
Did anyone actually learn software development from their CS degree?

~~~
per06a
Yes. Mostly from these classes: 1\. Operating Systems (custom malloc lib,
building own data protocols, servers, networking, etc) 2\. Compilers. If
you've ever taken this, I really don't need to say more. It's basically a
semester-long project with distinct phases all relying on each other (parser,
IR creation, type-checking, back-end code generation)

Pretty much every one of my classes included a heavy programming load,
including Algorithms. Depends on the program.

~~~
lifeformed
I found that a lot of the stuff I do daily (architecture, and structuring code
for optimum readability, elegance, and performance) was barely even glossed
over in my classes.

I guess the how-computers/programs-work type of stuff is pretty important (in
a subtle way). I just learned waaaay more by making things I liked in my own
free time (games, web apps, tools).

~~~
bdamm
I've found myself to be an effective programmer _because_ of the non-degree
experiences that allowed me to see the larger strategic and tactical
environment in which programming takes place.

However, the foundations that my CS degree gave me allow me to think much more
openly about the possibilities of what can be done with computers. I don't
need to depend on what a library can do, I can dream big and _then_ find the
code that does what I need or build it if I have to.

And strategic thinking is an orthogonal skill that will elevate anybody no
matter what professional discipline they are in. As a professor of mine once
said "if the only things you learn at university are covered in your classes,
you've attended a very poor university indeed."

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dgbsco
It seems counterintuitive that a budget-stressed department would want to turn
away potential revenue.

~~~
gwern
Try reading the article: the departments take a loss on each student. (But
we'll make it up on volume?) It's the other departments like liberal arts
which are cross-subsidizing them. (Which is cheaper to teach, a computer lab
or a poetry class?)

~~~
gertef
Computer labs aren't so expensive. ~$3000 workstation, good for ~6 semesters,
and multiple students per semester use one seat.

~~~
gwern
That's not even the beginning of the costs.

Again, the article directly addressed this issue. Read it.

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Dewie
So more people are applying to those programs - but what are the drop-out
rates? I've heard that they can be quite high for these types of things.

~~~
saryant
The problem my alma mater faces is an incredible surge in CS enrollment but a
fear of a 2000-style pop in which all those students flea the program.

IOW, they've got more students trying to major in CS than they can possibly
handle but are afraid of hiring more professors to handle the load. That's
what they did in 2000 and they wound up having three professors with nothing
to do. For a small school of <3000 students, that's a big problem.

Their solution is just to make the intro courses so difficult that >75% drop.

(Intro to CS in Scala will do that)

