
The 1980 Citroën Karin - dayve
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/karin/karin.html
======
Aardwolf
It is difficult to look more late 70s/early 80s than this car :)

But interestingly, the blue car behind it in this picture looks almost like
the design of a modern city car from today to me. So that's where the real
vision was?

[http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/karin/images/005.jpg](http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/karin/images/005.jpg)

EDIT: I might be wrong, I assumed the photo was from the 1980 Paris Salon show
due to the article text above it, but it's probably from later. Oops.

~~~
anentropic
maybe that's a more recent photo from a Citroen museum...?

~~~
Aardwolf
Thanks for pointing out, I edited my comment to show the mistake. The article
text above it and graininess of the photos really seemed to make them from
1980 :/

~~~
Tade0
One dead giveaway are the A-pillars. Manufacturers back in the day didn't
imagine we would have side curtains and double reinforcements in pillars
today.

------
awjr
What's interesting about these concept cars, is that they sometimes get built
if they generate enough interest. I believe this is how the new VW Beetle came
about, and I suspect what nudged BMW to bring out the new mini.

One that is in the process of making that leap right now:
[http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/98136/volkswagen-
bos...](http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/98136/volkswagen-boss-
confirms-id-buzz-concept-to-make-production)

I do wonder if the reason concept 'updated' models are more likely to be made
is there is a huge amount of nostalgia at play in the market.

As an aside, having owned a new Mini convertible, I can confirm it was
probably the most fun I've had in a car. Felt like driving a go-kart. The
suspension is ridiculously hard. Completely horrible car to be a passenger in
but so so so much fun to drive. Apparently very close to the original.

~~~
cjsuk
I borrowed my mother's (edit 1968) Mini for a week, after my Land Rover series
3 fell to bits. This was mid-1990s. The suspension was unpleasant and painful
to anyone in the vehicle. It was hard as nails. Definitely fun, until you
accidentally lose it going around a roundabout at which point your sense of
mortality re-appears and you wish you were driving anything else.

~~~
danieltillett
The original minis are such death traps I am surprised when ever I see one on
the road - firstly how is anyone foolhardy enough to drive one and secondly
how did it manage to survive to 2017.

~~~
gambiting
Say hello to Fiat 126, still a semi-common sight on Polish roads. When I was a
kid my parents had one and I remember it fitting 5 people

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_126](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_126)

~~~
Tade0
My parents met because my father wanted to do sort of a Grand Tour(well, not
so _grand_ given the vehicle) and my mother wanted to get to France, because
she landed a job as an au pair, but she wanted to save on transport.

How they managed to get there(through _Hungary_ ) in this little two-stroke
boggles the mind.

~~~
jaclaz
>in this little two-stroke boggles the mind.

Actually four-stroke (but two cyinders and air cooled, later a different water
cooled version with a bigger and different engine was made in Poland).

The FIAT 126 is the "evolution" of the more famous (and older) FIAT 500 and
uses almost exactly the same engine, with capacity increased from 500 cm3 to
600 or 650 cm3.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_500](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_500)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_126](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_126)

------
stijnsanders
The last image on that page has text in Dutch, I took a few moment to have a
quick translate. (P.S.: I have no idea what they meant with that last
sentence)...

In the last 20 years, every stylist has met the forcing limits of designing a
car, set by the cost, production methods and the ever growing regulation.

But this situation has had little consequences for the standardisation of
cars, it's more due to market probes that there's a danger of all cars looking
the same.

There's that many investments involved that the stakeholders don't dare create
a car that deviates too much from the normal.

Currently in Europe cars increasingly look very similar and the public is
taking notice.

This is an opportunity Citroën should take: its image has always been about
creating cars that are different than the rest and that's undoubtedly what's
the buyer is seeking these days.

At the Automobile Salon in Paris 1980, Citroën presented 'a dream car',
designed by it's 'Design Bureau': the Karin.

This prototype is the first stage of research into the mid-range: 2
'wing'-doors coupé with 3 separate seats with the driver's seat in the center.
The car is 3.70 meter long (145.7 inch), 1.075 meter high (42.3 inch) and 1.90
meter wide (74.8 inch). It has front wheel drive. The interior is also avant-
gardistic. An electronic screen continually provides information about the
condition and performance of several elements of the car. Though the esthetic
design of massively produced cars has improved all these years, their style
risks turning somewhat monotonous, since the designers get less playing room
due to inceasing external demands.

With this in mind the 'Bureau de Style Citroën' has undertaken this 'design
exercise' to reasearch the impact of a body with really clear lines on the car
buying public. With designing this car an attempt is made to describe an offer
for the future.

------
camillomiller
Can someone explain to me why these incredible concept cars never really get
built, even in small batches as a limited edition?

~~~
csours
So many reasons, but the two big ones are:

1\. Cost vs Reward.

2\. Regulations.

1) Many concept cars are non-functional or only partially functional. Making
them fully functional and production ready, even at prototype levels would be
extremely costly.

2) Many features in concept cars are not evaluated against FMVSS (Federal
Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) and other standards, they are not crash
tested, they may not meet EPA regulations.

There are a lot of other reasons, but they all basically boil down to cost vs
reward.

\---

There is also the backwards case, where many modern "concept cars" are
actually just pre-production teasers with fancy cosmetics.

Disclaimer: I work for GM, but not on concept cars, sadly =(

~~~
cm2187
Are Ferrari models crash tested?

~~~
csours
[http://blog.dupontregistry.com/news/crash-test-2-million-
hyp...](http://blog.dupontregistry.com/news/crash-test-2-million-hypercar/)

[https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/do-you-have-to-crash-test-
sup...](https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/do-you-have-to-crash-test-supercars-
and-how-safe-are-they)

Yes, usually at least once. Part of the reason supercars are so expensive is
that the engineering costs are only amortized over a small number of vehicles.
The crash test can be considered part of that cost.

The actual incremental cost to produce a supercar is a fraction of the price
tag.

In addition to official government crash tests, non-governmental groups such
as IIHS also crash test mass market vehicles, but they actually have to
purchase the vehicles they test - hoping to make money by selling back the
information they collect. It's pretty much never cost effective for IIHS to
buy supercars for crash testing.

[http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings](http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings)

~~~
cm2187
Interesting. The other thing I was curious about: aren't there regulations in
term of maximum noise emitted by new cars? If that's the case I wonder how
these supercars are roadworthy.

~~~
dahauns
A bit off topic, but I've especially wondered this about large motorcycles
(both superbikes and choppers). Many of those models are so incredibly loud in
everyday traffic, I can't believe they passed those tests.

I mean, supercars are rare enough and usually not that loud unless you push
them (I guess this could be a way to stay within regulations), but some of
those bikes can drown out other noise even when accelerating normally from a
stop.

~~~
cm2187
They may be rare but I live close to a place with many owners of these
supercars, and it's a big nuisance. My flat has a very good sound insulation
and I can't hear a large truck going through the street, but I hear these
supercars (and large bikes) very well.

~~~
grkvlt
To be honest, that sounds awesome! I'd love to be able to see and hear
supercars without even having to leave my house...

------
mastazi
The designer, Trevor Fiore, also created another great concept car, the
Citroën Xenia, info and pictures here:
[http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/xenia/xenia.html](http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/xenia/xenia.html)

~~~
kbart
Why does anybody need _two_ calculators on the driving wheel?[0]

0\.
[http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/xenia/images/xenia12....](http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/xenia/images/xenia12.jpg)

~~~
wil421
My parents had a late 80s 5 series that had something similar looking to a
calculator/phone. It was used to control the computer in the car.

~~~
woobar
Mercedes used to have a "calculator" in the center console on all their models
up until a few years ago.

2014 E-class: [https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/originals/97/23/d7/9723...](https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/originals/97/23/d7/9723d7b0476d796c5919a1692f9b6569.jpg)

------
maxxxxx
Citroen always has built different and innovative cars. And they brought them
to market.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV)

A lot of their cars had pneumatic suspension and other interesting tech.

~~~
trgn
Their last great car is the C6 imho. Got to drive one for a number of long
distance trips. So incredibly luxurious. Looks terrific too.

------
mwexler
Like Gibson's story "The Gernsback Continuum", I see cars like this and, I see
that, for a moment, the future we dreamed of is finally coming true... then it
fades back to reality, where instead we have...
[http://www.caranddriver.com/bentley/bentayga](http://www.caranddriver.com/bentley/bentayga)

~~~
crispyambulance
Yeah, there's a retro-future optimism in that car that's very attractive and
playful but ultimately sad. It represents a future that "could have been".

Reminds me a little of the work by the designer Luigi Colani
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Colani](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Colani)).

------
sjonniesjon
Reminds me of the good old Matra Murena! [http://petrolblog.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/06/Matra-Muren...](http://petrolblog.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/06/Matra-Murena-Europes-forgotten-sports-car.jpg) A
french three seater although mid-engined and regular lefthand drive instead of
center the look quite alike. They were built in the early 80ies as well, looks
like sharing of concepts :)

~~~
jacquesm
Awesome car, I saw one still driving around in the south of France last year.

~~~
sjonniesjon
I owned one for almost 7 years. Great fun to drive although not as sporty as
it looks, especially lack of power. The handling/cornering is just impeccable
though and makes it a real good fun car which does _not_ cost a fortune

~~~
jacquesm
They're getting pretty rare now. I remember being glued to the window of one
as a kid, mind blown about how this spaceship had landed in the city.

------
agumonkey
It's so amazing how design trends evolve. What drew people to think about car
shapes this way, why did they thing it would be "better".

A little bit later, this time by Peugeot
[http://www.carstyling.ru/en/car/1988_peugeot_oxia/images/634...](http://www.carstyling.ru/en/car/1988_peugeot_oxia/images/634/)

~~~
lmm
Perhaps they were doing computer analysis of aerodynamics on machines that
were only capable of modelling a few flat surfaces? A lot of '80s cars have
that flat/angular/boxy styling, and I see some continuity between that and the
F-117 where I know computer analysis is the reason.

~~~
agumonkey
I don't buy it. 60s car had rocket like shapes for the sake of aerodynamics.
The flat/angled look comes from somewhere else. .. Maybe even a counter
reaction to the rounded everything of the 60s / 70s.

Kinda like flat design not long ago.

~~~
Joeri
In the 60's manufacturers didn't care about aerodynamics, and they made big
cars with big engines and terrible mileage. After the oil crisis, car and
engine sizes shrunk and aerodynamics mattered.

I do find it always very odd how ugly the late 70's until early 90's period
is. Fashion, architecture, product design, even hair styles. Almost everything
looks awful. It's not just fashion, because you can pick designs from any
earlier period and they look ok if dated, but that 20 year period from the
mid-70's onwards is just so ugly. (Although undoubtably someone will be by in
a bit to tell me how wrong I am and how beautiful that period is...)

~~~
jandrese
I think it's a side effect of the baby boomers. In the 50s and 60s they were
young and learning the ropes, so style tended to be fairly similar to the old.
By the time the 70s roll around the old guard is retiring and these designers
are now free to experiment wildly. Stuffy and boring is out, flashy and
exciting are in. There is a whole generation of young adults driving the
market.

Then the 90s roll around and those designers are getting older and realizing
that most of the experiments didn't pan out and that there is some value in
the old and boring.

~~~
agumonkey
I do think this is one big reason. Waves of people getting to act on the
world. Also I'd add another factor, society feeds on drive, and younger people
are hungry by default, so new projects will benefit from having them. I can
see that in all new real estate work in Paris; it's all very very weird design
(too sophisticated, too shiney, discontinuous, unintegrated) that I'm pretty
won't age well at all. But that's how new buildings were done.. people needed
the "escape valve" of youth to let the energy flow somehow.

------
ivm
There's a nice Tumblr blog about cars like this:

[https://wehickles.tumblr.com/](https://wehickles.tumblr.com/)

------
jmkni
I would be surprised if this wasn't inspiration for the car Homer Simpson
built in the episode _Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?_

------
rwmj
The central steering wheel is ... different. It's the worst of both worlds. I
saw another 80s concept car which had a steering wheel that could be moved
from left to right hand side, presumably for people who very frequently cross
the Channel.

~~~
Fifer82
Ha I remember that, and i remember that tomorrows world (or whatever show it
was) was mind blown by it. 2/3 of the piece was about how the steering wheel
moves. I recall the car looked pretty nice at the time though.

~~~
Fifer82
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY1Ka1BlNwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY1Ka1BlNwQ)

I think this was it! OK, it looks terrible, but at the time it looked amazing!

------
userbinator
Somewhat reminiscent of the
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_DMC-12](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_DMC-12)
which actually made it into (limited) production.

------
mcv
Surprised to find Dutch text at the bottom of an English site about a French
car.

~~~
jacobush
It's all Indo-European. What's a few vowel shifts between friends.

------
pbhjpbhj
Reminiscent of the Countach ([https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads//2014/08...](https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads//2014/08/1974LamborghiniCountach_01_1280.jpg)) and Lotus Elise
([http://momentcar.com/images/lotus-
esprit-1980-9.jpg](http://momentcar.com/images/lotus-esprit-1980-9.jpg)).

~~~
sapphire_tomb
That's a Lotus Espirit, not an Elise.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Ah, apologies; confirmation by Google SERP was my ruination!

------
gusmd
Being from Brazil where Citroen has decent market presence, it saddens me that
I can't buy them here in the US. They have such nice-looking, modern vehicles,
and I would love to be able to buy them in the US. Same goes for other french
manufacturers like Peugeot. I used to drive a 207 during grad school. Loved
that little car.

~~~
KGIII
Both are slated to return to the US market, with limited models and over the
nex few years. Time will tell, but both have announced plans to do so.

~~~
linksnapzz
There is an individual in the NYC area who has managed to acquire and register
(get NY plates for) a late-model Citroen C6, which was to my great
disappointment never officially imported to the US. Very, very jealous.

------
scrumper
Good find. Looks like a good amount of the interior ergonomics did make it to
production cars: it reminds me a lot of the early 90s Citroen BX. Very similar
steering wheel, wrap around buttons on the driver's binnacle. And the
hydropneumatoc suspension of course - a Citroen signature and a brilliant
piece of engineering.

------
kikimaru
Meanwhile, I'm STILL waiting for someone to build Gordon Murray's T.25 / T.27
3-seater cars. Last I checked, Shell bought the idea & rebranded it to
"Project M" [http://shell.com/projectm](http://shell.com/projectm)

------
LoSboccacc
"alfa can I copy your work?"

"yes but don't make it obvious"

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Carabo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Carabo)

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Straight lines ruled back then:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_Lagonda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_Lagonda)

~~~
LoSboccacc
that 70s retro futuristic style
[https://it.pinterest.com/soulgarage/70-s-architecture/?lp=tr...](https://it.pinterest.com/soulgarage/70-s-architecture/?lp=true)

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Let's hope it's a long time before that comes back in style again.

~~~
com2kid
100% disagree, I think those houses look amazing. The brutalism ones aren't
always my thing, but that second house (labeled 70's prefab) looks great.

------
honestoHeminway
Why cant i buy this? You can buy a i8 today- but you cant, why?

------
overcast
The exterior makes no sense, it's like a kid building a lego car. The interior
is pretty rad though.

------
rsp1984
Engine before the front axis, making the engine weight work against the rear-
axis, ouch! That's a recipe for poor driving dynamics.

This could have legs as an EV though.

~~~
jandrese
Just like most Audis? One has the feeling that Audi would mount the engine in
front of the headlights if they could get away with it.

------
rajeshp1986
Straight from a sci-fi movie.

------
oatsandsugar
That instrument cluster!

------
stuartmalcolm
When people talk about electric cars.. this is what I picture.. ..Where's my
hover-board dude?

