
The truth about Apple's engineering [video] - ekianjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8
======
baxtr
The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that
Apple has screwed them”. That sounds odd to me. I know a lot of people who own
Apple devices and a lot of them had problems. But no own ever said that “Apple
screwed” them. In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by
Apple in a good manner.

No company is perfect. Apple makes mistakes. But in my perception they deal
well with their mistakes and are not shy to admit.

~~~
legitster
Selection bias - he only sees the failures.

~~~
camillomiller
Although I think the video has a point for some cases, I think you’re also
right.

My selection bias, for example, is the opposite.

I had my iMac 27” repaired three times in 2013 for a SINGLE faulty pixel.
Under Apple Care (which was less than 10% the cost of the machine when I
bought it), a technician was coming to my place with a new screen and replace
it on the spot. Amazing service. Unfortunately I kept on getting a screen
replacement with faulty pixel (apparently not so rare in such a big screen,
plus the replacement part was probably reconditioned) so the technician kept
on coming from 200km away with a new part. In the end it took three shots to
get the replacement right. I’ve read how much each intervention cost to Apple
in the repair bills he technician would leave to me as a receipt: 700$ each
(560€). Never paid a dime. Make it times three and you’ll find out Apple spent
almost as much as the cost of my iMac to get the repair right.

In 2016 my ex-gf the screen of my iPhone by dropping a mignon of vodka on it
from the kitchen shelf. Screen was destroyed completely and I feared for the
repairability of the phone itself. I brought it the Apple Store in Berlin for
a regular paid screen or phone replacement. The Genius stopped me as I was
telling him what happened and inspected the phone: “do you see this half-moon
thing inside the front camera? It’s an hardware problem and we have a
replacement program for that. Your phone is eligible for free replcement”. 10
minutes after I walked out with a brand new (reconditioned) iPhone, as If I
chose the full replacement, without forking out a single dime. I told about
the replacement program to all my friend with an iPhone 6s or 6. I think at
least three of them got a new phone out of an old one, no matter how used or
fucked up their phone was. One of them had dropped it and the phone screen was
barely holdin together as well.

Does this make me an Apple shill?

~~~
ksec
I have never heard a single good case of Apple services in Japan or HK.

Most of those amazing services story are from US, few from EU.

~~~
camillomiller
First story was Italy, not exactly a Tier 1 country for Apple. Second story
was Germany.

------
bee_vik
The saddest part about this is that it's the opposite of what Apple originally
stood for. With the Apple II line, Apple released schematics and
extraordinarily detailed technical reference manuals. Everything about the
inner workings of those computers was an open book. Their motherboards were
covered in chip sockets so you could replace nearly every component, and
peripheral cards could be slotted in at will. It was a hobbyist's dream
computer.

Granted, computers have changed a lot in the intervening years, but it still
makes me sad to compare what Apple was to what Apple became.

~~~
digi_owl
The Apple II was the Woz Apple. Woz basically has to threaten to walk out, and
leave the company without a products, to get Jobs to allow the Apple II to
have expansion ports.

The Mac etc is what Jobs wanted. A sealed beige box that only did what Jobs
envisioned it to do (produce a GUI and look good).

And yet variants of the Apple II kept outselling the Mac all the way until the
II was unceremoniously dropped.

~~~
Lio
Well Jobs was a complicated man and I don’t want to make excuses for other
parts of his life but...

He was also responsible for NeXT. That company was about trying to make the
power of Unix more mainstream.

Modern Macs are far more decended for NeXT computers than they are from the
original baige box >= system 9 Macs.

~~~
digi_owl
To me making use of _nix but writing their own UI layer suggests that the _nix
side was just a convenient way to get the base layer of the OS basically for
free.

This in much the same way as Linux use used just about everywhere these days,
hiding behind a myriad of custom UIs.

~~~
Lio
I’m not sure it’s that simple.

When Jobs founded NeXT in 1985 there was no standard GUI layer for Unix. What
you’re referring to as the “base layer” was all of Unix.

X was only started in 1984 I believe and Sun also has a competing incompatible
alternative at the time too.

It wasn’t at all clear that the X Windowing System would win out as the
dominant implementation.

------
woolvalley
Apple is a BMW or Mercedes of computing. And they definitely have their
issues, but they definitely have their plus sides.

So far apple's engineering mistakes haven't annoyed me that much. The
fragility of the butterfly keyboard is probably their worse one yet. Makes me
scared of buying a new macbook at this point.

~~~
agumonkey
Coupling a user facing fragile device with rivets is still mindblowing to me.
I gasped when I saw L.R. video about that.. couldn't believed it.

The market has fever, and is going full retard.

~~~
busterarm
Honestly, I will never buy another Apple product again.

I hope my iPhone lasts for many years, because I don't like Android... :(

~~~
agumonkey
let's all go back to nokia 3310 2018 :)

------
camillomiller
Repairs are such a small dent in Apple finances that thinking they engineer
their replacement programs for profit is simply silly. I have heard that point
many times. They engineer them to maximize the process efficiency, and there’s
always leeway. The real story here is this: Apple wants to control the product
completely, and that includes getting rid of long terms loyal partners such
Apple Authorized shops. They are all pretty disgruntled and disenchanted by
the company for that. Zealots turned haters are usually the meanest haters.

~~~
ianai
I wish modern tech wasn’t all about pushing the little mom and pop shops out
of existence. But it is happening to more products than not - this isn’t an
Apple creation. If anything, it’s a creation of wallstreets drive for profits
at all costs.

------
pcr0
The 2013 Macbook Air was the first and only Apple laptop I owned. It's still
incredibly reliable and (the hardware) is a pleasure to use.

I needed a new laptop with more RAM/storage/CPU but I was utterly disappointed
in their 2017 MBP lineup. Switched to Linux on the X1 Carbon and I haven't
looked back since. I do miss things like the touchpad, Preview app and other
Mac-only software, but not enough to put up with their product flaws.

------
geuis
Couple things here. First, that isn’t Louis Rossman’s voice. That’s either an
employee or a paid voice actor. Second, I paid Rossman to try fixing a bad MBP
board a couple of years ago because I watched his series and he seems like he
would go the extra mile. The board ended up not being fixed.

I and my family have bought Apple products since I was a kid (over 30 years).
I have always found their hardware to be extremely reliable and to age well.
Yeah I pay a premium but only need to make those purchases every 3-4 years.
Laptops, desktops, phones etc.

When my laptop board had a problem, it was already well out of warranty. The
Apple store tech still took the time to run diagnostics on it tried to find a
way to get it covered. But beer counts as water damage so that was the end of
it.

I will complain that the price for a replacement board ($1200) was a bit steep
for a machine from mid 2013 but I know it would have been well tested and
reliable. I ended up buying a replacement board from OWC for about $700 that’s
worked fine.

Rossman constantly rants about Apple hardware for years. Take what he says
with a huge grain of salt. Especially when he’s paying someone else to say
them.

~~~
hasperdi
I think that's Louis Rossman narating.

Also watch Linus' take on Rossman:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE&feature=youtu.be&t=250)

~~~
nicky0
Not the Linus I was expecting.

------
legitster
I would love to see a comparison against my beloved ThinkPad and see if there
is legitimacy to my preference.

OS preferences aside, I much prefer the ruggedized plastics and exposed seams
of the ThinkPad to the metal unibodies. I'm a function-should-define-form kind
of guy, and am deeply skeptical of aesthetics-first designs.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I have talked to various sysadmins who all
tell me that Macbooks on their networks have very high failure rates. They
realistically cannot plan on a Macbook surviving 2-3 years. And when they do
fail, they fail in unexpected, catastrophic ways.

~~~
Lio
Anecdotally, I’ve either bought Macs for my business or contracted with
companies providing Macs since 2006 and until the current crop of MacBook Pros
I’ve heard of very few issues and even fewer that weren’t fixed quickly under
warrantee.

My only issue was a faulty power supply on my 1,1 MacBook Pro and it was
fixed, for free, after the warrantee had expired.

But that’s anecdotes for you, not worth very much compared to actual stats.

I’ve heard more than a few stories from people about how they’ve repaired
their own Thinkpad. When I hear them though I just think, your laptop failed
and you had to repair it yourself.

My current MacBook Pro is a late 2013 model, it seems as good as the day I
bought it bar a few scratches.

I don’t want my laptop be easily repairable, I _need_ it have a bathtub graph
of reliability and not go wrong in the first place.

As a counter point I know two people with emoji bar MacBook Pros and both had
issues with dust in the keyboard so I haven’t upgraded.

~~~
pritambaral
> When I hear them though I just think, your laptop failed and you had to
> repair it yourself.

They could have gotten the laptops repaired via Lenovo. There was nothing
stopping them from getting that done within the warranty period. Exactly like
Apple.

> I _need_ it have a bathtub graph of reliability and not go wrong in the
> first place

Cool. That's you. But electronics do go bad, including Apple devices. And
sometimes people's requirements and abilities change, and they need larger
storage. The sensible solution to that is not "buy whole new device".

------
aetherspawn
The build quality of my late 2013 MacBook Pro is a lot better than that of my
early 2018 MacBook Pro with touch bar. When I picked it up in cantilever with
one hand it felt less flexy. The latter has seams that don’t line up and such
around the touch bar, and the fingerprint scanner seems to have seams from
manufacture around the edge. Keyboard scrapes every now and then and the
bottom of the laptop picks up dirt from the work area and makes an awful sound
when you slide it around (with the old under-profile, I didn’t notice this).

Nethertheless, the new machine feels a LOT lighter and, as such, I forgive the
engineering team who had their focus elsewhere.

I just wish they’d redesign the speakers so that you can’t tell when tiny skin
flakes fall in the microscopic holes (which you can’t get out .. at all). It’s
very obvious when a hole is missing due to the pattern of the holes.

------
natch
My theory is he is butthurt because he charges people for repairs, and Apple
does such a good job (sometimes charging little or not charging anything) that
it takes away business for him.

Yes some people get given huge quotes for repairs from Apple but the details
matter. If you hear a horror story, ask whether there was AppleCare, ask
whether the item was purchased from Apple either online at apple.com or at an
Apple store, and ask whether there was accidental damage.

Little known thing I was told by a tech at an Apple store, that I doubt
Rossmann would tell you: most Apple repairs have a per-model price cap for
parts costs for repairs when repaired by Apple. Like around $400 max for a
MBP, no matter how much hardware is being repaired at one time. This would not
include repairs due to negligence, obviously (water, dropping, run over by a
car, etc.) So third party shops can't compete... I guess Rossmann can't touch
this kind of low price himself, as he would have to pay the full repair tech
price for genuine Apple parts if he wants to use them, and this probably
pisses him off no end. Labor charges do not have a cap, but Apple repair works
quickly so these charges are low. And Apple treats you even better if you have
AppleCare.

But, to get the best care from Apple, there are a few practices to follow:

1) Always buy direct from an Apple store -- this gives the techs there more
leeway in their systems with what they can do for you, presumably because they
have a full lifetime record of where exactly the hardware came from and what
parts exactly it was made with (e.g. LG versus Samsung display, etc.), unlike
when you buy from, say, Best Buy.

2) Avoid third party repairs, as afterward your device is basically tainted as
far as Apple is concerned, and rightly so, because who knows WTF was done to
it.

3) Buy AppleCare. You won't always use it, but the times you do, it often more
than pays for itself and all the other AppleCare SKUs you paid for.

4) Get repairs done early. Apple stops repairing things after 5 years (even if
you're willing to pay) in some states, and after 7 years in other states. Not
sure if this difference is because of legal requirements, or proximity to
Apple repair depots. In California, which has a repair depot, the limit is 7
years.

No company is perfect. You can look back into the past and find a long line of
products that needed improvement. You can even look at current products and
see that there are things that need improvement. That's just how things work.

~~~
woolvalley
Doesn't each major device come with a serial number, and from that they can
determine which parts were used with it?

Some of this stuff is pretty bad. They could of fixed some issues with a few
more pennies into putting in better capacitors, but they don't do it for
future manufacturing runs? A lot of the issues seem to have a theme of power
management issues for the most part.

~~~
natch
>Doesn't each major device come with a serial number

Yes but that doesn't rule out the data and chain of delivery being better for
store-sold devices.

------
joneholland
I would gladly switch from MacBooks if anyone came even close to the same
touchpad experience.

I keep trying the latest Lenovo’s and they still have garbage touch pads.

------
vbezhenar
Retina MacBook Pro 2012 is the worst laptop I've ever saw. Extremely bad
quality, it had bad SSD from the start (no problems there except I had to wait
a month for repair) and it started to fall apart after two years of usage.
It's barely usage now. Thankfully I was smart enough to buy a PC for half a
price and got twice of performance.

------
karmakaze
Each new thing I learn about Apple paints a coherent picture. Not one of
incompetence, but one of 'intentional obsolesce'. Whether this is in the
hardware failure rates, inability or difficulty to upgrade or repair, or how
each software update makes the device less functional. In the case of the self
slowing battery dates didn't even require an OS update it was on a death
slowdown timer. The leaked internal memos illustrate that these are not
accidents.

Apple is great at something--just not quite what they portray.

------
Hydraulix989
Louis Rossmann is one of the most underappreciated YouTubers

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patrickg_zill
I was talking about a month ago with a Mac consultant; he has been doing ONLY
Macs for 20+ years.

Starting with the touchbar laptops, he noticed a decline in longevity. He had
his clients that saw these problems, sell off all post-2015 MacBook Pros and
buy only good refurb/used 2015 or so, MBP. No problems after he did that.

~~~
jonhendry18
The recent new keyboard's keys are known to be easily rendered unusable due to
a crumb getting into it. Repair is expensive (may require replacing the whole
upper case?)

That may be part of what he's seeing.

------
bitmapbrother
The BGA rework on those warranty serviced boards was pretty damning.

 _they BBQ it to a point where it 's only going to last 2-6 months and then
fail again_

[https://youtu.be/AUaJ8pDlxi8?t=11m45s](https://youtu.be/AUaJ8pDlxi8?t=11m45s)

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__phantom
At this point, I'll only use an Apple product if my work pays for it.

