
How the octopus got its smarts - ryan_j_naughton
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/how-the-octopus-got-its-smarts
======
dalbasal
Octopus intelligence is essentially one of the multipliera for the drake
equation for estimating the probability/ubiquity of intelligent ET life.

We have (as far as we know) one instance of life "seeding," many instances of
complex life evolving. Several examples of quasi-intelligent species like
dogs, apes, raven and octopi. Only one example of human-level intelligence.

The further they are from us/eachother in the evolutionary tree, the more
likely they are to evolve independently regardless of early complex life's
evolutionary choices. Octopi are _way_ farther from us than birds are.

Fun stuff!

~~~
bjelkeman-again
I have been thinking for a while that if you want to practice communicating
with aliens, try octopi. If you can actually have a reasonable conversation
with some of them, like you can with a house trained dog, then you are making
some kind of progress.

~~~
toasterlovin
I don't think dogs are a great example of an intelligent species just because
we can communicate with them reasonably well. They have evolved to be able to
participate in human society. With the exception of some breeds of herding
dogs, they're probably stupider than (to pick one example) raccoons. But dogs
possess a key trait that raccoons lack: they can understand human emotion
reasonably well.

~~~
zepearl
My parent's dog makes them indirectly do what she wants => direct
communication is potentially overvalued.

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blattimwind
> While the octopus has a large central brain in its head, it also has a
> unique network of smaller ‘brains’ within each of its arms. It’s just what
> these creatures need to coordinate the mind-boggling complexity of eight
> prehensile arms and hundreds of sensitive suckers, which provide the octopus
> with the equivalent of opposable thumbs (roboticists have been taking note).

A neurological network of loosely-coupled semi-autonomous subsystems...

~~~
rusk
Humans actually have a much more simplified system like this for coordinating
fine motor movement. Bunches of neural tissue at each vertebrae and a few
other strategic sites around the body can fire independently as reflexes. Also
stomach has a large amount of intelligence going on. Second largest
concentration after the cranium.

~~~
thomasfedb
The enteric nervous system is interesting, but I'm not sure I'd call it
intelligent. For one thing, you can chop big bits out of it with no adverse
effects.

~~~
srean
Well you can blow a freaking crowbar through your brain violently enough that
it lands almost a hundred feet behind you and yet the lasting effect might not
be much worse than a noticeable change in personality

EDIT

"I first noticed the wound upon the head before I alighted from my carriage,
the pulsations of the brain being very distinct. The top of the head appeared
somewhat like an inverted funnel, as if some wedge-shaped body had passed from
below upward. Mr. Gage, during the time I was examining this wound, was
relating the manner in which he was injured to the bystanders. I did not
believe Mr. Gage's statement at that time, but thought he was deceived. Mr.
Gage persisted in saying that the bar went through his head. Mr. G. got up and
vomited; the effort of vomiting pressed out about half a teacupful of the
brain [through the exit hole at the top of the skull], which fell upon the
floor" [0]

[0] Harlow, John Martyn (December 13, 1848). Passage of an Iron Rod Through
the Head. Boston Medical & Surgical Journal. 39 (20): 389–93 sourced from
wikipedia.

~~~
ta345693469
Watching someone vomit and a half cup of brain being pressured out of their
head to drop on the floor. Very glad I didn't go into medicine.

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wjnc
Awesome, somewhat speculative and philosophical science book on this topic:
Other Minds by Peter Godfrey

Wiki -
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_th...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_the_Sea,_and_the_Deep_Origins_of_Consciousness)

Review - [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/15/other-minds-
pe...](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/15/other-minds-peter-
godfrey-smith-review-octopus-philip-hoare)

~~~
ellius
Second. The end trails off a bit IMHO but it's an otherwise exceptional book.

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madeuptempacct
"So far, the octopus has revealed three big clues as to how it generates brain
complexity: it has multiplied its set of circuit-building protocadherin genes
and its network-regulating zinc fingers. It has also unleashed RNA editing to
generate more complexity on the fly."

Could someone elaborate on the last sentence please?

~~~
jaspwn
RNA editing involves modifying transcripts such that one gene can encode for
many separate proteins. The different proteins may only differ at few amino
acids but these modifications typically occur in functional domains eg ligand
binding sites, pore domains etc. This allows an increase in functional
diversity without an increase in genomic complexity.

~~~
gumby
I don't know why this was down voted so far it was killed so I vouched for it.

It is however a bit obscure. Perhaps this could be rephrased in more common HN
terms as "the octopus's genetic mechanism quite aggressively uses epigenetic
mechanisms" or "calls genetic 'subroutines' in ways unfamiliar in chordates
(like us).

I found it weird that the article called the octopus' brain morphology "weird"
given that we really only have one other model (again, that of vertebrates) to
follow. Though there are more vertebrates by far, perhaps the octopus makes
more sense and _we_ are the centralised weirdos?

~~~
aesh2Xa1
"Weird" does not mean "bad" — just different [from what we commonly expect].
Anyway, there are also some aspects to the physiology that you might not
expect, such as the esophagus running through the center of the executive
brain. A bit of crab shell might pierce it, for example.

~~~
danans
> "Weird" does not mean "bad"

I tend to agree, but it's interesting that depending on how much the norms of
one's prevailing culture emphasize conformity, as they have in the recent
past, "weird" can be interpreted as a pejorative.

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tombert
I find this absolutely fascinating. For a long time we thought that humans had
a monopoly on abstract thought and problem solving, then we realized apes have
it, then pigs, and now octopi. It's weird to think that humans might not be
the only truly intelligent creatures on the planet, but it does show to me
that "intelligence" isn't this simple black and white system.

I have to say though, this article did kind of make me feel guilty for eating
as much octopus as I have.

~~~
shawn
Suppose you were born an octopus, with your current level of intelligence.

What would you do? How would you demonstrate it?

Note how difficult it would be to communicate.

I think many animals are a lot smarter than we give them credit for.

~~~
adrianN
It's hard to distinguish your current level of intelligence with all the stuff
you've learned. Knowing what I know now I'd probably go for tapping prime
number sequences on the glass, but it took millenia of humans that were
basically as intelligent as me to figure out that prime numbers are
interesting.

~~~
Skrillex
That is true. I was thinking that morse code or writing would be effective,
but my knowledge of these things is not really intelligence but rather things
that I learned by participating in human society.

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Razengan
I love octopuses and I hope they're given a fair chance to evolve to their
full potential, perhaps as the next caretakers of Earth to succeed us if not
as the second intelligent species to cohabit this planet with us.

It seems their biggest disadvantage is their very short lifespans? Apparently
they get to live for barely 5 years! Worse, their reproductive system also
seems to be rigged to make them die of starvation. [0]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Lifespan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Lifespan)

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Silfen
In a stunning coincidence, this is from today's Washington Post: 'This is what
happens to a shy octopus on ecstasy'
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/20/this-is-
wh...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/20/this-is-what-happens-
shy-octopus-ecstasy/)

------
gammateam
Put enough neurons in a room with enough energy and you get intelligence!

Seems to be the recurring assumption. Does anyone in this field have any more
insight into this, like is this just a journalistic mis-interpretation or is
it really the accepted belief with X, Y and Z to back it up?

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nikofeyn
i recommend the book _squid empire: the rise and fall of the cephalopods_.

[https://www.amazon.com/Squid-Empire-Rise-Fall-Cephalopods-
eb...](https://www.amazon.com/Squid-Empire-Rise-Fall-Cephalopods-
ebook/dp/B0716YD4TL)

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sheperdsonbrown
[https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nemzqz/researcher...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nemzqz/researchers-
gave-octopuses-mdma-in-the-name-of-science)

