
What Works and Why: Opus Magnum - jsnell
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/02/27/what-works-and-why-opus-magnum/
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em3rgent0rdr
One thing I would like for the Zachtronics games is if the optimization
mattered somehow other than just personal satisfaction. Such as you get
achievements, special equipment, or get to unlock special stages for meeting
certain optimization goals. Or since you are basically designing factories (or
PCBs in the case of Shenzhen and TIS), maybe your creations earn profit based
on their cost and efficiency? And maybe you have to earn enough profit to win
the game, in which case would have to revisit less efficient designs to
improve them.

~~~
flashman
Well, part of the appeal for Tom is that you can just blunder your way through
the campaign: "And that’s reason 6: you don’t have to optimise. If I had to do
this to progress, I probably would have quit in frustration."

I'm reminded here of Wario Land on the Gameboy: you could finish the game by
speeding through levels, but the time you spent collecting treasure directly
influenced the prize you got at the end. Maybe that would be a good compromise
for gamers driven by external milestones rather than personal ones.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
> "I probably would have quit in frustration."

In actuality, I actually quit in frustration about 3/4ths through the game
_because_ I realized I could just blunder my way through the rest of the game.

Eventually I got tired of the game after I stopped caring about optimizing,
and then wondered why I should bother completing the game other than for the
sake of completing it. Yes there was a storyline to the game which should be
completed, but the storyline was disconnected from the essense of the game
(which to me was optimization). I would have felt more purpose in finishing
the game if the optimization mattered somehow, like for instance if it
affected the storyline or progress of your character somehow.

I don't think it is a matter to me of "external milestones" vs "personal
milestones", but more about engagement and immersion in the story and world of
the game, which I suppose is something I am after in addition to simple mental
exercise.

For comparison, another Zachtronics game "SpaceChem" does a great job in
linking the optimization into the game and storyline though the following
simple mechanism: in order to defeat bosses, your factory had to meet certain
timing requirements. To me, that requirement made all the difference in terms
of immersion.

~~~
Terr_
I had the opposite experience: Infinifactory was great because even my
kludgiest creations got to the point of giving a warm fuzzy "I made dis!"
emotional payout... which is what drove my interest in optimizing against
friends.

In contrast, some of the less-friendly (and less-intuitive) limits in the
"boss battles" of SpaceChem simply turned into big painful dead-ends, leading
to me abandoning the game on the final level. (And swearing I'd get back to
it... someday.)

I think the distinction speaks a little bit to the spectrum between "problem
solving" and "puzzle solving". Both games are solidly in the former camp, but
Infinifactory feels far more like a creative unique exercise.

Plus, I kind of need more of the life-lesson: Getting something "ugly" that
works and then iterating is better than holding yourself to an emotionally-
safe but difficult standard that keeps you from getting work done :P

~~~
jcl
Fun fact revealed in a GDC talk: Even Zach Barth himself did not feel
motivated to complete the final SpaceChem level. He just designed it to the
point where it "looked solvable" and then turned his playtesters loose on it.

(
[https://archive.org/details/GDC2013Barth](https://archive.org/details/GDC2013Barth)
at 19:20)

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pxndx
Haven't seen any mention of Factorio in this thread. It's not as much of a
puzzle game (except when going for extreme optimisation) but a resource
management game.

~~~
quchen
Time, in particular. When you’re new, you think all those »more addictive than
crack« comments are jokes. They are not.

Factorio has a lot in common with writing a fun new language that you don’t
know how to abstract things in, figuring out as you go. Spaghetti bases will
bite you just the same way as spaghetti code. And once you get the hang of it,
it’s all about scaling, becoming crazier and crazier, until you have entire
bases built with a swarm of flying robots in a single click. Can’t recommend
it enough – but unlike Opus Magnum, Factorio is, as mentioned, definitely not
a casual game.

~~~
frenchie4111
I went over to a friends one night, we decided to check out Factorio. I didn't
leave his house for 4 days, we both called out of work sick, I racked up 80
hours play time on Steam. I have since decided to never open that game again.

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dhx
Someone created a bf interpreter using this game:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll0qHlx_qLg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll0qHlx_qLg)

Also of interest may be similar attempts to create computers in other games
and applications:

OpenTTD:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEzm1ghAsU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEzm1ghAsU)

Minecraft:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPaI5BJxs5M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPaI5BJxs5M)

PowerPoint:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8)

~~~
pdkl95
TIS-100 in Infinifactory

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMnOEgbm2fE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMnOEgbm2fE)

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jasonincanada
Great review of the game, and doesn't even mention the built-in solitaire
game, Sigmar's Garden, which is a fun game in and of itself, set in the same
hex grid you play on in the main game.

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rcthompson
Another excellent game I would put in the same genre is Manufactoria, a free
flash game. In fact, here's a glowing recommendation for it from the creator
of Opus Magnum (the game featured in the OP):
[http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manu...](http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manufactoria/)

Edit: It looks like this is the URL for the latest version of Manufactoria:
[http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/](http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/)

~~~
candiodari
I feel like there is a big shortage of games like this, but the absolute top
to me is human resource machine, where you program a human:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7rSN265Yg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7rSN265Yg)

~~~
pxndx
I prefer games like Manufactoria or SpaceChem. Human resource machine and
TIS-100 look too much like regular programming to me.

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empath75
I enjoyed this one a lot more than his previous games. There’s not a lot of
challenge to just getting through a level, so it’s more of a meditative
experience. It has depth if you want to optimize but there’s less banging your
head against the wall for hours completely stuck, as can happen in his
previous games.

~~~
ThatPlayer
I also found that a lot more enjoyable. You can always just bruteforce your
way to the solution, if you're really stuck, and then come back and optimize
later.

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PacifyFish
I'm not a gamer yet that write up was riveting. Cool.

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cpeterso
Abstract optimization games like this remind of Verigames, a DARPA project
researching gamification of scientific problems (such as protein folding or
formal verification of software) so crowds of untrained human players could
attempt the solve the problems.

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/citizen-science/darpa-
ver...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/citizen-science/darpa-verigames-
crowdsourced-formal-verification-csfv-project/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldit)

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kbenson
As you might expect, these types of games appeal to quite a few people that
frequent HN, and have come up often the past.[1]

1:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=zachtronixs&sort=byPopularity&...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=zachtronixs&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=pastYear&type=comment)

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devit
I found this game to be terrible, in contrast to Shenzen I/O which I found
somewhat fun.

The issue was the lack of any meaningful constraint, which means that there is
no difficulty and solving the puzzle is just a matter of tediously entering a
sequence that produces the desired result.

In theory you could try to get the most optimal solution, but that doesn't
seem very fun either, since the lack of programmability and variety makes
everything very bland.

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billfruit
Perhaps it would be a tinge more fun, if the chemistry was somewhat realistic.
Though I haven't played Opus, the totally bogus chemistry of SpaceChem was
detracting from the experience, and I wonder why most reviewers haven't really
commented on that aspect.

~~~
k3d
I might be misinterpreting you, but Opus Magnum is "alchemy"\- it makes no
attempt to reflect real chemistry, the components are simply abstractions. I
can't tell if that would be a pro or a con in your book, but it's a pretty
good game.

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rhlala
I am not sure i should buy 'opus magnus' or the new 'into the breach'

Opus looks like more about programming solving problem? And into the breach
more like chess or tactical rpg?

I am curious if someone tried both could me make a choice!

~~~
Deregibus
That's a good broad description of both.

I loved their previous game TRS-100, but Opus Magnum didn't really do it for
me for whatever reason. I'm completely hooked on Into the Breach.

~~~
NoahTheDuke
Nitpick: Zachtronic's previous game was Shenzhen IO
[http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/](http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-
io/), and is definitely worth checking out if you liked TIS-100.

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Inufu
From the article this sounds exactly like my experience playing code golf -
coming up with a cool solution, finding out your friend did it in half as many
characters, completely reinventing your approach, repeat.

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knolan
SpaceChem was my favourite iPad game. It was great when travelling when you
had some time to burn and it could be really challenging. It’s a shame that
Zachtronics decided to drop support for iOS.

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em3rgent0rdr
What I love about Zachtronics is the vast design space.

~~~
Terr_
It's what makes them problem-solving games rather than puzzle-solving games.
Your solution is a subtly-unique creation that you can emotionally own.

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ZeroGravitas
Can those who've played these games recommend which one to start with for
someone who is interested but hasn't played any of them?

~~~
pxndx
I'd start with the free ones: [http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-
alchemical-engineeri...](http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-
engineering/)
[http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/](http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/)

Then depending on which one (or which parts) you like the most, select a
similar one

