

U.S. now bugging German ministers in place of Merkel – report - rbanffy
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/23/uk-germany-usa-spying-idUKBREA1M0IV20140223

======
discostrings
> Bild am Sonntag said its information stemmed from a high-ranking NSA
> employee in Germany and that those being spied on included Interior Minister
> Thomas de Maiziere, a close confidant of Merkel.

So it looks like, according to Bild am Sonntag, this information was provided
by a new, non-Snowden source from within the NSA itself. The report even goes
so far as to indicate the source isn't an entry-level employee.

Courage is contagious?

~~~
GabrielF00
Or the newspaper just made it up. Per Wikipedia:

>> In the paper's beginnings, Springer was influenced by the model of the
British tabloid Daily Mirror,[3] although Bild's paper size is larger, this is
reflected in its mix of celebrity gossip, crime stories and political
analysis. However, its articles are often considerably shorter compared to
those in British tabloids, and the whole paper is thinner as well. Bild has
been known to use controversial devices like sensational headlines and
invented "news" to increase its readership. The policy of having a topless
woman on its front page virtually every day has also been criticised by German
feminist groups.

~~~
eru
In Germany, the topless woman is on the front page below the fold. In Britain,
she's on page three above the fold.

Bild is about as trustworthy as the Daily Mail or other British tabloids.

------
ufmace
Are we supposed to be mad about this or something? I'm no fan of the NSA
monitoring everything that every American does for no particular reason, but
that isn't what we're talking about here. Every country in the world spies on
its enemies, rivals, and allies to the best of their ability. There's no such
thing as "Fair Play" in diplomacy.

~~~
meddlepal
Exactly. As an American I really do not see why I should care if we spy on our
allies. We have everything to gain from gathering privileged knowledge and
very little to lose.

~~~
panacea
You're a sociopath. I'm an equal human being, despite not being born in the
US.

~~~
philwelch
You're a private citizen. You're not worth spying on and it would be wrong to
do so. If you were the Chancellor of Germany, it would be ridiculous of you to
expect not to be spied on by anyone with the capability.

~~~
sentenza
NO! Please read up on the Belgacom hack.

Private citizens are now targets for the NSA and GCHQ because their personal
vulnerabilities (and devices) can be used to compromise infrastructure that is
used by "interesting" players.

~~~
philwelch
Right and I'm saying that while that crosses the line, spying on Merkel or her
cabinet does not.

------
DasIch
I do hope the U.S. manages to completely isolate itself internationally. The
U.S. losing it's allies and therefore effectively super power status would
definitely be a positive outcome of all of this.

~~~
skylan_q
The way it's looking it's going to happen one way or another. It's probably
better that the move towards isolation happens intentionally rather than be
forced by screw-ups like these.

------
DigitalSea
I am curious just how credible this high-ranking official source is. These are
pretty explosive claims and if true, have the potential to jeopardise US >
Germany relations and force other countries including Australia and New
Zealand to investigate and question if the US has been doing the same
elsewhere.

If this is seriously true, then the US are most definitely spying on everyone.
This is the kind of stuff that starts wars, it's actually quite scary what the
NSA has been and continues to do.

~~~
GabrielF00
>This is the kind of stuff that starts wars

Not really. Intelligence gathering has pretty much been par for the course for
centuries.

------
anigbrowl
Bill am Sonntag is clearly a very serious newspaper. There is no way I would
doubt a source like this: [http://www.bild.de/](http://www.bild.de/)

------
joyofdata
As a German I also second that Bild is not a trustworthy source and I find it
odd that such a charged information would be seeded to Bild instead of
Spiegel, FAZ or Süddeutsche which all have a much higher reputation within
Germany and internationally.

Funny though - I guess Bild is right about this anyway ...

~~~
czottmann
Apparently so. Here are some articles on the subject in more trustworthy
publications:

Süddeutsche Zeitung: [http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/us-geheimdienste-nsa-
uebe...](http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/us-geheimdienste-nsa-ueberwacht-
innenminister-de-maizire-1.1896464)

Die Welt:
[http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article125122483/Nach...](http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article125122483/Nach-
Merkel-auch-de-Maiziere-im-Visier-der-NSA.html)

TAZ: [http://taz.de/Ueberwachung-durch-US-
Geheimdienst/!133621/](http://taz.de/Ueberwachung-durch-US-
Geheimdienst/!133621/)

~~~
joyofdata
Hey Carlo! Kompliment für das neue Design von neues-aus-der-zukunft.de - wird
immer chicer!

~~~
czottmann
w00p, danke! :)

------
DanielBMarkham
Hate to keep being the voice of sanity here.

1) The loss of privacy and anonymity on the internet is horrendous. The NSA is
the poster child, not the problem. We don't need to "stop the NSA". We need to
fix the problem.

2) Yes, even allies spy on each other. Spying on each other is a _good_ thing.
It prevents misunderstandings, it allows for back channels. It's been expected
ever since there was diplomacy.

As far as Obama saying he was going to stop spying on Merkel? That makes no
sense to me. Somebody should ask him.

In all of this, I get the distinct feeling that people without knowledge of
(or who don't care to understand) how intelligence and diplomacy work are
being used as pawns for other intelligence agencies who I can guarantee will
have no Snowdens. This is not an optimal state of affairs for stability in the
world.

~~~
panacea
"Lying is a good thing"

------
gojomo
Directed against a government, maybe it's not 'spying', it's enforced
transparency. And it's not a 'bug', it's a miniaturized digital whistleblower.

------
higherpurpose
> "We have had the order not to miss out on any information now that we are no
> longer able to monitor the chancellor's communication directly," it quoted
> the NSA employee as saying.

Saying "we'll stop spying on Merkel", but we'll continue to spy on everyone
near her even more so we can "incidentally" collect most of her conversations,
or find out anything she _would know_ from the ministers", is like a
distinction without a difference.

If I were Merkel I'd be just as pissed off at this, because the whole point of
me getting mad in the first place was NSA trying to find out what _I_ know.
Whether they spy on me directly or through friends/colleagues, it doesn't
really matter, does it?

I'm imagining these guys guying their asses off in their offices when Obama
made the speech about his "reforms", knowing very well the changes are at best
cosmetic, and that they will continue to do _everything_ they've been doing so
far, while making the public believe otherwise.

~~~
philwelch
Merkel's outrage is probably just more theatre for our benefit. You don't
become the leader of a G8 country and hold onto any illusions about how the
world works.

