
Why People from Manchester Are Mancunians, Not Manchesterians - sohkamyung
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/demonyms-linguistics-nicknames
======
Radim
For people interested in this kind of stuff, Guy Deutscher's book "The
Unfolding of Language: An Evolutionary Tour of Mankind's Greatest Invention"
is a fun read!

As is the "The History of English" podcast [0], for the more aurally inclined.

On a related note, the Great Vowel Shift [1] of the 14-16th century really
fucked English over. Apparently it was a close call back then, English almost
kept its "regular", conservative pronunciation ("meet", "boot" like in
German), instead of the current idiosyncratic chaos.

Bizarre pronunciation of British proper names like Cholmondeley (pronounced:
Chumley!), Worcester or Norwich are another one of my favourites.

[0]
[http://historyofenglishpodcast.com/page/10/](http://historyofenglishpodcast.com/page/10/)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift)

~~~
dghf
"Worcester" and "Norwich" are sort of regular, in the sense that the "ces" in
"-cester" suffixes often gets elided into an "s" (e.g. "Gloucester",
pronounced "Gloster") and the "w" in "-wick" and "-wich" suffixes is typically
dropped completely (e.g. "Greenwich", "Warwick", "Berwick", pronounced
"Grennidge", "Worick", "Berick" respectively).

My mother has always insisted that "Cirencester" is correctly pronounced
"Sisister", which Wikipedia sort of supports
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirencester#Pronunciation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirencester#Pronunciation)).

~~~
TrisMcC
That's interesting because North Berwick, South Berwick, and Berwick in
southern Maine are pronounced Ber-wick.

~~~
chrxr
Similarly, Norwich, Connecticut is pronounced Nor-which locally.

~~~
richardfontana
I have read (no source at hand though) that that one used to be "Nor-itch" but
during the 20th century the pronunciation was gradually forgotten and replaced
with a spelling pronunciation. If I remember correctly the same was true of
Warwick ("War-ick") Rhode Island.

~~~
Radim
Same thing happened with Berkeley in the US: originally "Barclay", and still
pronounced "Barclay" in the UK.

------
ameliaquining
The formal demonym for Massachusetts, according to Wikipedia, is "Bay Stater".
(You can practically picture some hapless writer trying to apply a standard
suffix and giving up.) I don't think I've ever heard it used in real life. I
think our real demonym is "Masshole".

~~~
krallja
The demonym for Florida must then be Floridiot.

------
philipps
I am from Cologne (Köln), Germany and we use the same word "kölsch" for the
people, the dialect, and the beer. It also works as a demonym. I am, speak,
and like to drink "kölsch".

------
unfunco
It is even more granular for some of the cities, I am in Liverpool (also
mentioned in the article) and scouser is more of a superset, containing:

* Plazzy – (from plastic, meaning fake.)

* Wools – (from wooly-backs, having accents sounding as if they might live near sheep, traditionally traders would commute to the city from other cities with wool on their backs.)

* Johnheads (the "ketwigs" (those that spend their money on Ketamine rather than haircuts) that congregate near St. John's Market)

Interestingly, the subsets are more likely to cause offence if used since
they're terms mainly used to describe others, and less likely to be adopted
(though scouser was adopted.)

~~~
kinlan
I live in Liverpool but grew up on the Wirral and frequently am told I'm a big
Wool, and I understood it to be nearly anyone in merseyside but not in
Liverpool and plazzy to be anyone not in merseyside but affiliates as a
scouser.

~~~
unfunco
To me (from Wales, living in Liverpool) a scouser is anyone with a scouse
accent, a plazzy is anyone with a scouse accent that lives outside the L
postcode but within Merseyside.

~~~
kinlan
I would like to formalise this :)

------
Nexxxeh
Before sending her the article, I quizzed my mum on some of the examples. It
was going well until Dubai.

"Dubious!"

I like hers better.

~~~
pjc50
"No, she went of her own accord!"

(oops, wrong punchline)

------
andybak
At a certain point a term is so unfamiliar that you have to accept it's fallen
out of usage. I'm from the UK and had never heard of Leodensian, Wulfrunian or
Novocastrian.

Can anyone from those places comment on whether the terms are used seriously
in normal conversation - and not just to sound clever or erudite?

~~~
bshimmin
I studied Latin in Newcastle and definitely heard "Novocastrian", but I'm
certainly an outlier. I can't imagine any Geordie you're going to meet in St
James' Park is likely to use the term.

Mancunian, Glaswegian, Geordie, Liverpudlian _and_ Scouser, and Bajan are all
commonly used. I have never heard the ones for Leeds or Wolverhampton and I
assume they're silly back-formations like Novocastrian. Malagasy seems to be a
proper term both for a language and a people, according to Wikipedia, though
it's not one I'm especially familiar with. I have no idea about "Haligonian"
or the Pittsburgh ones.

~~~
RobertKerans
I studied all school subjects in Newcastle, and know a great many people from
the area who didn't even get to non-signalling-language level of schooling,
yet staggeringly, are aware of the specific name for people from Newcastle;
you're not an outlier. It's not widely used, but it's very well known.

------
toomanybeersies
New Zealand is another interesting one. Our demonym is "Kiwi" from the bird. I
guess technically it's "New Zealander", but I don't think I've ever heard
someone use that.

~~~
tikwidd
'New Zealander' isn't really demonym, since it's a noun rather than an
adjective. 'New Zealand' is both the name of the country and the demonym: 'The
Russian prime minister' -> 'The New Zealand prime minister' (but you can't say
'The Russia prime minister')

~~~
ithkuil
The New Yorker mayor also doesn't sound right, although that's the correct
demonym according to Wikipedia.

Would it be possible that perhaps the demonym is the name of the people, a
noun, while the adjective is another thing, that can happen to coincide with
either the place name or the demonym or something else, on a case by case
basis?

------
_nalply
German has also irregular demonyms. People in Zürich aren't called Züricher,
but Zürcher. Same for Basler in Basel. Near Innsbruck in Austria, there is a
small village, Igls. I discovered the last holiday there that people are
called Igler there. And so on.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Are the irregular demonyms limited to places where Southern Germanic
dialects/languages are spoken, or is it just coincidence that your examples
are all in Switzerland/Austria?

Recall also that residents of München are not Münchener but Münchner.

~~~
pluma
This actually sounds like it might be related to the "Lutherian e" (after
Martin Luther, the German reformer and namesake of the Lutheran church)[0]:

Up until the late 1700s, the trailing "-e" in words like "Füße", "mache" and
so on were intentionally dropped in most of (Catholic) Southern Germany
because it was associated with Luther's translation of the Bible and therefore
considered heretical.

The effects of this are still present in German (e.g. the German word for
"door" nowadays is "Tür" but "Türe" is still an archaic or rare variant you
might encounter, likewise you might colloquially see phrases like "ich seh'"
instead of "ich sehe"). If the places with demonyms that drop the "-e-" in
places ending in "-en" are mostly in South Germany, that might explain why
they differ.

Note, however, that the official pronunciation of "München" according to the
German wikipedia actually drops the "-e-"[1] (rendering it in IPA as
[ˈmʏnçn̩]), so "Münchner" is actually not as irregular as "Zürcher" (where the
local pronunciation of "Zürich" actually drops the "-ch", not the "-i-"[2]).

[0]:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherisches_e](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherisches_e)
(German)

[1]:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchen](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchen)
(German)

[2]:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich)
(German)

------
mannykannot
I have Brummie ancestors - a native of Birmingham (UK), from its dialect,
which in turn comes from a slang name for the city, Brummagem (originally
Bromwichham, a village subsumed by Birmingham, with its name taken from the
Saxon words for Broom (the shrub) and for salt).

Unlike Manchester, Birmingham has little hope of a Latin demonym from the
Romans: there was no 'there' there then.

From other relatives, I know that Wilkes-Barre, PA's dialect is called Heyna
/Hayna ("ain't it so", used like the Canadian "eh" as a question tag), but I
do not know that it is much used as a demonym.

------
girzel
Interesting! I've had Chinese people ask me why they're called "Chinese" in
English, with a strong suspicion that it's some kind of racist diminutive. I
was able to come up with the analogous "Portuguese" to show that it's not just
them, but being able to at least say it's French in origin should help
further.

~~~
krallja
Vietnamese, Japanese, Javanese, Senegalese

~~~
girzel
Ah right! Part of it was that they suspected it was only used for Asian
countries (Vietnamese, Japanese, etc), which is why I went straight for
Portuguese. This is useful, thanks.

------
anthonybullard
Being from Indiana, I'm really surprised that 'Hoosier' didn't make this list
as it's even more mysterious than the others(and most explanations are
apocryphal). But fun read none the less.

~~~
the_watcher
Hoosier is a good one, it would fit right into the "demonyms have some logic,
sometimes, except for the ones that don't" conclusion.

Kiwi (as an unofficial demonym for New Zealand) is another surprising
omission.

~~~
dannosowitz
author of the article here! i specifically left out hoosier because, well,
it's TOO interesting. keep an eye out for a future article about it.

~~~
the_watcher
Looking forward to it!

------
dghughes
I worked with a couple of guys based in Monaco and since it is a city state I
guess it applies, I asked and they said they are called "Monagese" but I see
it is spelled Monégasque.

In the article I see the ese is French ending maybe Monagese is the English
version of Monégasque, or I misheard.

In Canada there are two cities Saint John, New Brunswick and St. John's
Newfoundland I'm not sure what each prefers with each being so closely named.
I do know that you never write out St. as Saint for St. John's that's a
paddlin'.

------
dep_b
Same for people from the Dutch city of Utrecht, never call them Utrechtenaar.
As there were a few huge "sodomy scandals" in Utrecht the regular form of
Utrechtenaar became a synonym for homosexual. That's why they prefer to be
called Utrechters.

Sorry, no English source: [http://m.dichtbij.nl/utrecht-en-leidsche-
rijn/artikel/387814...](http://m.dichtbij.nl/utrecht-en-leidsche-
rijn/artikel/3878146/-)

------
jwdunne
This is very interesting. As a Mancunian, the term is so common I guess I've
never questioned it much. It's just taken for granted.

If it makes it easier, it's often shortened to just "manc". We tend to just
use that instead of "Mancunian". I recently commented my little girl seems to
have a thick Manc accent - it's quite comical. Burger becomes "burg-oh",
finger is "fingo" where The "oh" is like the o in "goth".

~~~
petepete
As a fellow Mancunian the thing that annoys me most is the replacing of the
't' sound with a 'c' sound in some words, e.g. hospital

~~~
jwdunne
My Nana does this but I haven't inherited it. Hospical, keckle. I can see the
irritation but makes me think of Nana so it's more nostalgic.

------
Taniwha
Let's not forget the USA - there is no unambiguous denonym for its inhabitants
- despite the protestations of the people who live in the US, people who live
all over the Americas call themselves "American", just like people all over
Europe call themselves "European", and people in Africa are "African", and in
Asia "Asian"

~~~
ameliaquining
I took an informal survey of my international friends, and the general
impression I got is that "American" mean "from the US" everywhere except Latin
America.

~~~
pluma
German here. "Amerikaner" unambiguously refers to US Americans. I have no idea
how I would refer to someone from _either of the Americas_ because I've never
had the need to group North America with Latin America -- oh, and also
"Nordamerika" typically just means "US and Canada" just like "Europa"
typically excludes Russia. Sorry.

------
cperciva
Related: The demonym for Oxford is _Oxonian_ , and the demonym for Cambridge
is _Cantabrigian_ (often shortened to "Cantab" or simply "Tab"). Bot demonyms
are based on the Latin names: Oxonia and Cantabrigia respectively.

~~~
bloat
I've only ever heard Tab from students at Oxford referring to rivals (mostly
sporting) from Cambridge. Not sure its common in other contexts though.

~~~
stordoff
It's definitely used in other contexts. The main two that come to mind are the
alumni email service (...@cantab.net) and the Cambridge MA (shortened to MA
(Cantab.)).

I do occasionally hear it mispronounced as "Cantabridgarian".

~~~
bitwize
There's a bar in Cambridge, MA called The Cantabridgian.

Also in the 80s there was a small computer company based in Cambridge, England
called Jupiter Cantab. They made the Jupiter Ace computer, a semi-clone of the
ZX81 with Forth in ROM instead of BASIC.

~~~
philipps
I am familiar with the Cantab Lounge, but not the Cantabridgian.

------
c517402
People in Phoenix are referred to as Phoenicians. Which has always struck me
as a misnomer.

~~~
StavrosK
Kind of, but the two regions (Phoenix and Phoenicia) do pretty much share a
name.

------
mc32
Me Favorite is Geordie for people from Newcastle even it's a fairly recent
demonym.

------
richthegeek
As an adopted Mancunian (by way of nearby North Wales) I had never really
questioned why we used this demonym at all, I suppose in the same way I might
not question why a sheep is called a sheep.

Some other interesting ones from the nearby area: anyone from North Wales is
called (by those from South Wales primarily) a "gog" typically with a negative
connotation. It comes simply from the Welsh for north: Goggledd (gogg-lev).

And one that the Scousers love to use is "Woollyback", for those from the
nearby county Lancashire, as the locals would walk into Liverpool with wool on
their backs to sell.

~~~
unfunco
In Welsh classes in school we used to watch Gogs [0] but it was never once
explained to us that it comes from Goggledd, nor do I remember learning that
word.

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8VvGbHNBww](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8VvGbHNBww)

Edit: Having just watched a couple of minutes of the clip, it appears that
it's independent of language (like Mr. Bean) so I'm not sure why we used to
watch it in Welsh classes, but it probably goes someway to explaining why I
don't know many reasonable basic words in Welsh.

------
martyvis
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the demonyn for those from Sydney,
Australia. It is Sydneysider - I have heard Sydneyite maybe once or twice. Of
course the state we reside in is New South Wales - that mouthful leads to New
South Welshman. Finally, we of course are Australians, but as every one of us
gets our name convolved we end up as Aussies!

~~~
wluu
And Melburnian [0] for Melbourne.

[0]
[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Melburnian](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Melburnian)

------
thyrsus
A hypothesis concerning -ite: whereas -er belongs to anyone using a Germanic
derivative, and -an belongs to anyone influenced by papistry (as a practicing
R.C., I jest; basically any western European and their historic colonies), the
greek derived -ite belongs only to the greek studying elites, and the
resentment thereof imbues the suffix.

~~~
pluma
> and -an belongs to anyone influenced by papistry ([..] basically any western
> European and their historic colonies)

Spain? Portugal? Netherlands (pre-reformation)? France?

I see some gaping holes in that theory of yours.

Actually, the weirdest of those seems to be Netherlands with "Dutch", which is
horribly confusing to anyone not fully aware of the distinction between the
Netherlands and Germany (Deutschland -- which to English speakers sounds
dangerously close to "Dutchland").

------
fizzychicken
I grew up knowing myself to be a 'Manc' before I found out it was short for
'Mancunian'. When I eventually left Manchester and moved to London I was just
known as a 'Northern Monkey' to the locals. Now I live in New Zealand I'm just
a 'POHM'. I'll be a Red Manc till the day I die.

~~~
StavrosK
Maybe they meant "Mancie", like "Frenchie".

~~~
fizzychicken
Northern Monkey is a term for anyone from 'the north'. Some say this comes
from the 'Monkey Hangers' of Hartlepool.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger)
The opposite would see you known as a 'Southern Fairy'

------
pjc50
Could also have mentioned Mackem:
[https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11826/why-are-
pe...](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/11826/why-are-people-from-
sunderland-called-mackems)

------
midhir
Cannot believe 'Galwegian' predates 'Glaswegian', I always thought the former
was a relatively recent adaptation of the latter! Galway's a great city for
culture, it doesn't need to be borrowing anything from anywhere...

My world is shaken.

------
zumu
Hmm, mentions Pittsburgh and 'yinz', but not Pittsburghese. Definitely worth
looking into if you're interested in strange regional dialects(?).

------
prodmerc
I recently learned lede (leode) was Old English for People. Which was
interesting for me since Leute is still in use in German.

------
SnacksOnAPlane
Atlanta used to be "Atlantan" but now the preferred nomenclature is "ATLien".
Thanks, Outkast!

------
daurnimator
One that often comes up at trivia nights in Australia is the demonym for
Geelong, which is Pivotonian.

------
ironic_ali
Disappointingly, no mention of "monkey hanger" for our brethren from
Hartlepool.

------
xchip
TL;DR: The demonym for people from or properties of Manchester is “Mancunian,”
which dates back to the Latin word for the area, “Mancunium.”

------
dmurray
Tldr: because a previous name of the area was Mancunium. There are some more
irregular demonyms discussed in the article, with slightly more detailed
etymology.

~~~
xchip
Thanks for this, I wish every news here had a TL;DR post. In fact me myself I
do it whenever I have a chance (most articles are 5% information and the rest
95% is just padding)

------
midnitewarrior
Totally wrong.

People in Manchester are called Bonnaroovians.

------
nxc18
I'm from Manchester but I don't think I've ever heard Mancunian in usage,
although I'm fairly certain at least in NH that demonyms are really not
culturally significant outside of the national ones. NH isn't easily
demonymed, which probably contributes.

Maybe the rules are just different in the US.

~~~
randomblast
You're not from the Manchester to which the article refers. Here, we are
definitely Mancunian.

