
Ask HN: Started job 3 months ago...not going as planned - rightFootOnly
I started a job at a fairly large software company about 3 months ago. I was fully prepared for legacy code and dated processes, but in the interview process I was sold on “transformation” and “change”.<p>Three months in and I am far less happy in comparison to my previous software engineering role. I work on a fairly distributed team, which was supposed to be agile. We don’t have a product manager and our manager isn’t involved much. We are told that we will be getting a PM, but nothing in sight.<p>I have one colocated team member and they are less than ideal. They fall asleep at their desk or during conference calls and don’t seem to care much about software development in general.<p>Onboarding and training was nonexistent. It has been pretty much trial and error since day 1.<p>I feel like I was sold something in the interview process that is not accurate.<p>Long story short, how long do I stick it out before looking elsewhere or even returning to my last job as I left on good terms?
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crikli
> How long do I stick it out before looking elsewhere or even returning to my
> last job as I left on good terms?

Eject, as long as this isn't going to add to an existing pattern in your
employment history.

People in the position to hire have more than likely been in the situation
where they were sold a bill of goods, gotten on the job, and had to make the
same choice.

But if this is going to be, say the third short term gig in a row, then it's
going to be a hard sell that the problem has been the employers and not you.

Assuming it's the former, when it comes time to talk to other potential
employers and interviewers, state the scenario factually and without rancor.
"I was told during the recruiting process that we would be writing the
platform in Node, turns out we were hand punching Fortran cards."

Edit (hit submit too soon): if it's the latter, then you need to stick it out
for at least 12 months. There are some great comments in the thread about
changing the culture, etc. I would add to those to shift your mentality from
"this is my employer" to "this is a _client_ for whom I'm going to do the best
work I can for 12 months." I can yap a lot more about that shift but if you
can create a mental firewall between you and the employer and minimize
emotional engagement, doing the time will be easier. :)

~~~
bb88
> "this is a client for whom I'm going to do the best work I can for 12
> months."

Yeah, absolutely agree with this. I made the transition from employee to
consultant/contractor, and have no regrets about the decision.

If you can do good work no matter what situation you're dropped into, it means
your worth at least twice your salary as a consultant. If you can transform an
underperforming group, you are worth even more.

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BurningFrog
I know one thing: It's _not_ going to get better!

At least unless you channel your inner Napoleon and start transforming the
organization yourself.

I don't have that in me, and most people don't, but I hear it _can_ be done.

~~~
pojzon
Im pretty much in the same situation as OP and I REALLY tried to be the
Napoleon, but the more you try the bigger resistance you are met with. (You
look like the „unfun” and „bad” guy who wants people to actually start doing
what they are paid to do)

You just get worn out over-time and give up.

~~~
edgyquant
Well being a Napoleon is not something most can do. You must have more skill
than pretty much any of your superiors and co-workers but that is only the
initial bit. You must then have the charisma to prove everyone wrong (and make
them have confidence your plans are better) while making them like you for it.

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justrudd
I've had this type of job before. Twice actually. One was for 2 weeks (which I
left for personal reasons not job related), and the other was a similar
situation to yours (which I left after 4 months). I just didn't list them on
my resume/application at places I applied to later. When asked about the gaps,
"I just needed to take some time off. For N years, I've never really taken a
long vacation so decided to do that".

If you've got the cash and don't have to have your next gig set up, give your
two weeks now and start the mental healing.

~~~
dudul
Some background checks may reveal to your next employer that you had these
jobs, even for a very short period of time.

~~~
stevewodil
Yeah, you may as well list it and if asked respond honestly. It wasn't a good
fit/the role didn't match the job description, etc.

~~~
ericskiff
As an employer, I don't expect every potential employee to list all of their
previous roles. Especially for more senior people, I expect that a resume is
tailored to show me their best relevant experience. Leaving out a short stint
somewhere wouldn't worry me.

~~~
dudul
I agree with your comment, I was just reacting to the recommendation to lie
and just say that you took some time off.

As a hiring manager, I would not care at all about a non-comprehensive list,
but I would absolutely care about someone trying to hide past employment

~~~
justrudd
Just curious, I've got 15+ years of experience I can put on there. If I simply
listed the ones that I thought were most relevant to the position I was
applying for, would you ask why there are gaps?

For example - during the 2008 downturn, I worked a job that was not terrible,
but used tools and hard skills that were completely non-transferrable to any
job I've had since then. So I no longer put it on my resume even though I was
there for 2 years. Would that two year gap over a decade ago be a
conversation? Assuming of course, that I even put anything prior to 2010 on an
application anymore.

I guess for me - do you dig into every gap you see? Maybe they left under good
circumstances and just don't want to list the job because they weren't proud
of the work they did there.

~~~
dudul
I guess everyone may have different expectations. On my end, I would just want
to see your current position, the one before that, and then a short list of a
few past ones you find relevant. So it could be:

07-2019 - Present: ACME blbalbalablablablaba

05-2016 - 06-2019: Tesla blabalbalablablabalbalab

Other relevant experience: * Apple, blablaba * Facebook, blablabla

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andygcook
My anecdata of one: As an employer/founder, I wouldn't hold a short stint on
your job history against you. I'd give it an equal chance of being a poor
employer vs. you not working out. Would likely just ask you about it in an
interview. If it were a few short stints in a row, then that might give me
pause. But in my experience, this situation is more common than you'd think
and any good employer/recruiter is going to be able to look past it.

Would you want to go back to your previous job? It's possible they might want
you back if you left on good terms. Would be easier, cheaper, and faster for
them than backfilling your position.

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PopeDotNinja
I've been there. I had a job where after 3 months... There was a crapton of
technical debt, we had a new PM that was useless, no one seemed to know
anything, every user story was written for everyone except me, yada yada. I
wanted to bash my head in daily. Then one day it got better. The hung on long
enough to find a few people who had been around long enough to know a bit
about what they were talking about, and then I started learning how they stay
sane. A lot of it involved mastering how to tell people they needed to up
their game in communication before I was gonna do work they asked me to do.

No magic answer, but in general I find I'd rather work on a fucked up
environment where I can make incremental improvement than a good-enough-for-
people-who-aren't me environment where everyone is to comfortable to tolerate
any changes.

~~~
darioush
> A lot of it involved mastering how to tell people they needed to up their
> game in communication before I was gonna do work they asked me to do. Any
> pointers?

~~~
PopeDotNinja
If you thinking stuff as input and output, think about what input to your work
makes things so hard. For me, I hadn't worked with a PM that simply didn't get
how to talk to an engineer. So I learned how to quantify what I needed before
I could start working and then started saying "hey, I need A, B, and C, and
they aren't in here."

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dpix
Have you chatted to your manager about how you feel? They might not know how
bad the situation is, or may be in a similarly tough situation. If they don't
want to chat you can always try grab a coffee with one of their peers or their
manager. People further up the chain might be pretty surprised by what is
happening, and a bit of initiative on your part should get recognised.

If they turn you down or you get negative feedback about how you are feeling
in the team you should get out of there for sure

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rb808
No real manager and colleagues who sleep during the day? This sounds like a
dream job. You're free to do what you want. Don't rush and quit, work on
whatever interests you. If Agile, "transformation" and "change" floats your
boat - start doing that. If you really want a job doing something else, start
training yourself for those interviews

~~~
coding123
Before doing this, just find out what you signed when joining regarding
ownership of works (things you make during your own time). You will also need
to make sure you log that time because even so you don't want to have it look
like you worked on things during business hours. (commits etc...)

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southphillyman
Be the change you want to see! Did this job offer a substantial bump in pay?
If so ride it out while trying to improve the culture\processes. Seems like
it's very slow pace so you can spend time leveling up some skills you may be
interested in and even implement some side projects to improve the processes
and present them to management. If they aren't receptive bounce with a few
cool projects under your belt and a couple extra months of pay.

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thecolorblue
I can't think of a job that I have had that was perfectly described in the job
posting. Something is always different.

As far as bad jobs, there is always some opportunity. If there is free time,
work on something else or take online classes if the company would own
anything you work on. If you are stuck doing busy work, automate.

It is also fair to jump ship. Not every opportunity is worth it. I would say,
before you go, try to learn what happened to make this environment so bad. It
will be useful later.

Good luck.

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epc
Leave.

Feel no shame in it either, it sounds like the company misrepresented some or
all of the role and the team.

Find another role, give standard notice, leave on good terms, but control your
departure and exit, don't wait around for things to improve.

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seibelj
You can do this once without any other company batting an eye. If you keep
doing this several times in a row then it could be a red flag to hiring
managers. I wouldn't worry about it, just put in your 2 weeks and use it as a
learning experience.

~~~
brutus1213
It is far easier to get a job when you have one. While I agree, one doesn't
have to suck it up for a year in shitty role, better to get interviews lined
up asap and lock in a new job BEFORE giving notice.

That said, I had one employee renege on an offer (before starting), which
ticked me off royally. We had limited slots and he waited a long time to tell
us of his decision to renege. That was not cool in my books.

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mortivore
If you're planning to return to a previous position better sooner than later.
Either way you should look to getting out of there.

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cprayingmantis
I think 3 months is long enough to figure out if a company is a good fit for
you or not. If you're suffering then leave. Particularly if you enjoyed the
last place you worked. Folks may ask but just tell them you left of your own
accord and you didn't feel like a good fit for the team. Don't do anything
suddenly unless you have the cash to make it a month or so or a job already
lined up. The leave, be nice about it, and never look back. I did two short
stints of around 6 months each before ending up at my current place of
employment and they didn't ask anything when I got hired.

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poulsbohemian
Lemme tell you a story...

First week on the job, I'm reporting to an executive multiple layers above
where I would typically be, because everyone in between had suddenly been
moved / left / positions never filled. I have a contractor reporting to me who
is interviewing to be my boss. At the end of the first week, several other
managers take me aside and tell me I need to get rid of that contractor ASAP.
This sets the tone for the next year, where I have at least four different
managers that I can recall. A year later when I'm interviewing for an internal
promotion, that I "didn't move fast enough" to remove that contractor (who
went on to Google...) is held against me, but I otherwise win the interview
loop - only to have the position given to someone else out of essentially
nepotism (...and that didn't go well for anyone, but we'll leave it at that).
BTW - the team I was working on (as a solo developer...) was the only one in
the company generating reliable profits, essentially funding the rest of the
(public, at the time mid-sized name brand) company.

This isn't even the only story I have like this in my career. Point being -
many of us have accidentally walked into jobs or contracts where things aren't
what they seem or what was promised. If you like the overall company and think
you can get an internal transfer at some point in the near (-ish) future, then
stay. If you think that it was just a big mistake all around, then leave and
be thankful that the economy is in good shape and that there are jobs in most
metro areas for technical people (unlike after the dotCom / 9/11 meltdown,
lemme tell you about that...)

------
SecurityMinded
3 months is a long enough time to stick it out. If there is no progress or no
light at the end of the tunnel, it is time for your exit. Put your 2 weeks
notice period in. Do not burn any bridges and exit stage to the left. Toxic
environments are a reality. Make sure you do a lot more research for your next
gig. Otherwise, if you keep finding same type of shops and jump ship every few
months, the resume will not look good.

------
0027
I would leave. I had a job last April and I left it in November because it was
so boring. I keep jobs where I find I am in a win-win scenario. If I am
learning and doing things I find interesting and I feel my contributions are
appreciated I continue the work. My interview process at the last company was
deceptive as well. I should have left sooner.

 _edit_ \- expanded info.

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chrisgoman
I would say that if you see a possibility of recognition 2-3 levels up then
you should be the leader that they need. You mentioned "large" so this may be
the unlikely option.

However, if you see a chance of leveling up your career faster than in a job
you love (but slower advancement), then you should "take over" and put the
"owner hat" on -- what decision would the owner (or the board or the
shareholders) of this company do and do that. Even if you are 10% better than
the next person, that should be evident to the people around you and if this
will be visible to people that matter.

You are getting PAID to do a job so you can complain about the job not being
right for YOU but a "professional" makes sure that you are doing the job to
benefit the company first. Even if it is not with your current position, this
attitude and outlook will reward you eventually.

Good luck!

------
JohnFen
Most companies I've worked for have a formal trial/probationary period of some
sort, typically 90 days. Personally, I consider that to be a two-way street --
I'm trialling them just as much as they're trialling me. I have never had a
problem with leaving within that window. For the few companies I've worked for
that have no such period, I just figure 90 days anyway.

I've left a few jobs that, like yours, were not what I expected -- usually on
the last day of the trial period.

Not suggesting an action for you, but if I were in your shoes, I'd just do the
same: I'd stick it out for three months and if there's no sign that anything
will be improving, I'd move on.

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robotastronaut
I was in a similar situation once. In the time between my offer letter and the
day I started, the company fired every team lead and wanted to position me as
a person that would help get the <location redacted> office in line with SF
expectations. It was a culture nightmare. Beyond that, there was no
engineering leadership at my location and the code was a mess. I could deal
with the code, but not while dealing with the anxiety that the culture
produced. I quit at three months. To his credit, the CTO was cool with it,
noting that three months or less is basically the trial period, and if you
back out of the job, no problem.

I'd quit if you can. Pay attention to the red flags.

------
wensley
I would do as others have suggested, hand your notice in now and start looking
for your next thing. Maybe try contracting for a while? No need to explain
this short stint at all then.

I'm in a similair situation right now myself but almost a year into it. The
job description and job title absolutely does not match up with the reality,
no leadership / direction and I really struggle with motivation. I have
mentioned this but it still continues.

I think the only thing left for me to do is quit, the only problem with that
is I have a nice remote deal that would be hard to match. Feeling kind of
stuck. I might try contracting myself.

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ryanmercer
I'm not in the CS world at all but if you're unhappy at a job, start looking
for a new one NOW. I used to dig graves and was outside6 days a week with
minimal shade. The first time I got sun poisoning I immediately started
looking for another job, even took a 2$~ pay cut because being inside in air
conditioning was worth not cooking in the sun all day smelling obscene amounts
of flowers in various states of decay while smelling diesel exhaust
constantly.

------
bradlys
Is there any reason to not look now? It sounds like there is a substantial
amount of free time. Do some interview prep and start interviewing before you
lose all your energy.

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mkovach
I ran into a situation about the same as you. I just explain things to places
I was interviewing with that the situation didn't match the interview process
and despite my best efforts, I just have to move one. Now, I was lucky that I
had been laid off and this was the ``rebound job'', so I didn't have a history
of changing jobs. Only one potential employer had an issue with them, but I
did find a very good job and moved on.

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LostInTheWoods2
It sounds like most of your stress is being caused by not having a Product
Manager. You should find out what the deal is there from your manager, and if
you don't like the answer, then consider leaving. Beyond that I would say,
don't leave a job just because it isn't a dev utopia when you walk through the
door. A better measure of when to leave a job is when you know that your goals
and theirs don't align and never will.

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dbancajas
I'm curious how much do jobs like this (this=allow you to sleep on the job
while meeting in a conference room) pay? is it north of 150K USD base?

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todaysAI
Why can't you raise your hand up to be PM?

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ken
> I feel like I was sold something in the interview process that is not
> accurate.

I would say that's standard practice, on both sides of the table. Everyone
tries to put their best foot forward in an interview. Anything not written in
the contract might simply have been said to try to close the deal.

Large companies are not known for their amenability to change.

------
tinyhouse
Large companies usually have many different products and teams. It depends on
the company, but if you can move to a different org/team/product, then I think
it's better than quitting after only 3-months, unless the culture is too toxic
or stressful, which doesn't sound to be the case based on your post.

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shoes_for_thee
Just start applying elsewhere. If it's the kind of place you can take a nap
at, it's also the kind of place where you can leave at lunch for an interview
and put out applications while you're dialed into a pointless meeting. Just
don't get stuck there.

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zippityzorp
I've been in the exact same scenario and left my job after about four months.
It didn't impact my future job searches at all outside of hiring managers
saying "Hey, looks like you left that job fairly quickly, why's that?" All
they needed to hear was that it wasn't a good fit and that I was sold
something different during the interview process.

If you feel like there's still potential with the company you're at, be
straight with your manager and tell them how you're feeling diplomatically.
Otherwise, I'd start sending feelers out elsewhere.

Assuming you left your previous job on good terms and want to go back, reach
back out! I've been at companies where people boomeranged back ranging from a
few months to a week. It's not as uncommon as you think.

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dudul
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and point out that apparently this is the
kind of place where people can in fact fall asleep during work hours, even
during calls. That opens up a lot of possibilities. How about doing the bare
minimum and working on bettering your skills on your own? Or even do some side
hustle?

~~~
rhizome
A side hustle on company time and equipment? That might not be as good an idea
as you portray!

~~~
Tade0
I've worked for a company(or, should I say, corporation) where side hustling
was fairly common.

Mostly because the employer had enough money to keep a lot of staff and make
them do bullshit projects, half of which wouldn't reach production.

Only instance when someone got a slap on the wrist was when they, ahem, showed
the wrong demo. Hilariously enough the only objection here was the perpetrator
used company equipment.

The guy who got escalated for going to the swimming pool during work
hours(even thought he stayed later to make up for the lost time) upon hearing
that was furious.

~~~
cwivbly
> Mostly because the employer had enough money to keep a lot of staff and make
> them do bullshit projects, half of which wouldn't reach production.

This is incredibly common, and not just at big companies. I bet half my time
as a developer has been spent building products or features that never went to
production. Includes work for startups or small companies where you might
expect that in the case of extreme failure, but also for household-name bigcos
and everything in between. Throw in products that are scrapped before being
the market long enough to make the effort seem worth it, and my experience of
this industry has been pretty damn nihilistic. Alienation, I guess you'd say.

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davidajackson
Just bounce if you're not going to grow. Lots of great jobs out there.

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kristina_s
No point to stay if you know it is not working out for you

