
NASA's Treasure Map for Water Ice on Mars - Edward9
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-treasure-map-for-water-ice-on-mars
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davedx
1) The original NASA article had a more in-depth explanation - maybe we could
change the story URL to use that? [1]

2) Yes, we've known for a while now that Mars has water ice. This is new
science because they've built up a comprehensive map with the goal of
identifying good landing sites for future missions to Mars, in particular
missions focused on in-situ resource utilization of Martian water ice. The
data is derived from current Mars probes, the Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter and
Mars Odyssey Orbiter.

[1] [https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-treasure-map-for-
wate...](https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-treasure-map-for-water-ice-on-
mars)

~~~
jcims
I can't wait to see the Mars helicopter scout on the 2020 rover mission. It's
kind of useless on its own but if the design works it would really open up
exploration opportunities to validate large scale maps like this. Add some
kind of tool bay that it can fly around and 'do science', returning to the
rover to grab a new tool.

~~~
isolli
Wow, I would have honestly thought that the Martian atmosphere was too thin
for a helicopter to fly!

[https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/05/14/helicopter-to-
accompan...](https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/05/14/helicopter-to-accompany-
nasas-next-mars-rover-to-red-planet/)

> She said the size of the rotors was restricted to 1.2 meters by the space
> available on the Mars 2020 rover’s belly pan. In turn, the 1.2-meter rotor
> diameter limits the mass of the helicopter to 4 pounds — 1.8 kilograms —
> based on the rarefied density of the Martian atmosphere.

> “The biggest thing is the atmospheric density at Mars is very thin,” Aung
> said in an interview Friday. “It’s 1 percent of that at Earth. It’s
> equivalent to about 100,000 feet in altitude here on Earth. The other
> difference is the gravity at Mars is lower. It’s about 40 percent. That
> plays into how much we can lift.”

> The rotors on the Mars Helicopter will spin between 2,400 and 2,900 rpm,
> about 10 times faster than a helicopter flying in Earth’s atmosphere.

~~~
jcims
Yeah rotor tip speed is Mach .7 lol

Here it is running in test chamber at mars equivalent atmospheric density -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMCJGfwj3rY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMCJGfwj3rY)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Yeah rotor tip speed is Mach .7_

The thin atmosphere cuts both ways. It generates less lift. But it inflicts
less drag.

~~~
parsimo2010
It also lowers the speed of sound. This poses some design limitations and
since traditionally designed rotors get less efficient near Mach 1- they still
work, but not as well. So you have to spin the rotors fast to generate enough
lift, but you want to keep them slow so the tips don't go supersonic.
Helicopters/drones on Mars are a tough design problem in areas beyond just the
atmospheric- you can't use a gas engine because you can't refuel it,
recharging a battery with solar energy takes forever because there is less
solar radiation. You can't replace the rotors if you crash, so you need to
make it robust, but you can't make it too heavy. On and on...

~~~
m_samuel_l
Maybe a balloon to provide most of the lift, then attach a few electric props?
And if you have access to ice, maybe we can use solar panel to electrolise it
into fuel.

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wazoox
Hum, this is a new kind of dark pattern, here's what's happening when I click
this link:

uBlock₀ has prevented the following page from loading :

    
    
       https://guce.advertising.com/collectIdentifiers?sessionId=3_cc-session_5136ebd9-e4e2-493e-82eb-6d42aeb5c582
    

I managed by using wget instead...

~~~
juancampa
I was wondering the same thing. What's exactly happening here? Is uBlock
origin blocking this page _after_ it gets loaded? I don't see
guce.advertising.com ever been requested in the network tab either.

~~~
the8472
engadget does a HTTP 307 temporary redirect to the site. ublock inserting its
warning page leads to a security context switch to an extension page which
triggers a dev tools reload which in turn removes the request history. You can
view the requests in the global browser console instead.

Presumably the ad would direct you back to engadget once you click or
something and add a parameter to prevent an infinite redirect loop.

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mangatmodi
Title is highly misguided. "Nasa identified highly probable zone for mining
water ice"

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nkrisc
Tangential, is "ice" ever used in chemistry or other fields to refer to solids
other than water? Other than "dry ice," colloquially. Would you ever call
solid oxygen, "oxygen ice"?

~~~
onion2k
It's a term used in planetary science too.

 _Planetary scientists often classify volatiles with exceptionally low melting
points, such as hydrogen and helium, as gases (as in gas giant), whereas those
volatiles with melting points above about 100 K (–173 °C, –280 °F) are
referred to as ices. The terms "gas" and "ice" in this context can apply to
compounds that may be solids, liquids or gases. Thus, Jupiter and Saturn are
gas giants, and Uranus and Neptune are ice giants, even though the vast
majority of the "gas" and "ice" in their interiors is a hot, highly dense
fluid that gets denser as the center of the planet is approached._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatiles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatiles)

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SEJeff
This is super important for SpaceX's idea of ISRU for producing Metholox (fuel
for the Starship) on Mars.

[https://medium.com/spaceinmylifetime/how-spacex-will-
refuel-...](https://medium.com/spaceinmylifetime/how-spacex-will-refuel-on-
the-surface-of-mars-3438bcc2aefe)

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izzydata
How many times have they found this? I feel like I see this headline once a
month.

~~~
goodcanadian
Yes, there are subtleties here that are missed by the headline. Water ice on
Mars is not new, particularly in the polar ice caps. What is new is that they
have produced a map of (very) near surface water ice at lower latitudes
(within a few centimetres of the surface). This isn't exactly a surprise, but
it also hasn't really been shown before. It shows that the water is there and
widely available.

~~~
izzydata
I'd like to see someone gather up all of the articles relating to water on
mars and place them on a timeline with brief summaries of the actual progress
being done. To most people it looks like water on mars over and over.

~~~
goodcanadian
It doesn't help that with this and most other science news, press releases
always try to make the discoveries look like major breakthroughs when they
are, in fact, incremental additions to our knowledge.

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8bitsrule
"You wouldn't need a backhoe to dig up this ice. You could use a shovel"

People in clumsy, restrictive spacesuits, in low gravity, using shovels to
crack through the frozen surface? Then using picks to break up the water ice?
then carrying tons of said ice to the electrolysis => H2 => CH4 get-me-outta-
here fuel machine?

That can't be right. I need to see the full plan here.

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lowdose
For anybody interested more in landing on the moon someday instead of Mars I
have good news. It seems that the first person to bring his/her bike to the
moon is going to be able to rent their apparatus to successive travelers
without running in to the risk of property theft.

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nkkollaw
Publications (Engadget in this case) keep leaving details out in the the
headline to make it more click-bait, and the result is that there are at least
10 articles/month claiming that "NASA just found water/ice on Mars!!!".

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hmd_imputer
Just searching Hacker news for "mars water" returns 200 results, dating back
to 9 years ago. It seems NASA keeps "finding water" on Mars and then forgets
about it.

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JshWright
NASA didn't write that headline...

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hmd_imputer
that was meant to be a sarcastic remark

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godber
The paywalled paper is here:

[https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2019GL08...](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2019GL083947)

Available through various institutions for free. You'll find the authors to be
established Mars scientists who've been weighing in on the water/ice (and
other things) discussions over the years.

~~~
s1artibartfast
I think this may be the same data/paper for free :

[https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/ninthmars2019/pdf/6027.pdf](https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/ninthmars2019/pdf/6027.pdf)

~~~
mturmon
Good point ... your link is the 2-page conference version (from June) of the
larger and more-detailed journal submission (which was more recent, and for
me, not available in full form yet on the journal website).

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peterwwillis
I didn't know Rita's opened a franchise on Mars!

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chriswwweb
I have the feeling NASA is finding water on Mars every month ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

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ncmncm
There is quite a lot of water ice right at the surface, in much of Antarctica.

And it's warmer there, and has, y'know, air.

~~~
drewrv
There are already outposts doing science in Antarctica.

~~~
ncmncm
Agreed! Another advantage: existing infrastructure.

