
Cherry MX History - sohkamyung
https://tedium.co/2018/07/19/cherry-mx-keyboard-history/
======
Karrot_Kream
In 2004 it was trivial to get a New In Box IBM Model M keyboards in the US
from online shops. It's fascinating to me how designer keyboards became a
niche hobby of its own, despite having little-to-no empirical testing on
comfort or speed, in ~10 years. Back then my Model M was a weird curiosity,
now it's a prize.

~~~
TylerE
Honestly Model M's are little more than historical curiosities at this point.
The state of the art has moved on. Once you get used a to a good modern
keyboard - I'm partial to Topre switches, myself) - the actuation force of the
Model M is just really excessive, nearly double.

PS: If you really want them, you can get Unicomp boards built on the original
IBM tooling for about $80.

[1] Yes, I have a couple Model M's around, including a 1991 'vintage' IBM with
a PS/2 connector that doesn't play nice with modern motherboards - they don't
generally supply enough milliamps).

[2] I don't much care for Cherry switches either.

~~~
mb_72
Another 1987 model-M (compact mini to be precise) user here. I have never once
even thought about how 'hard' it is to push down a key, hope you haven't just
jinxed me! Yes, occasionally needing to unplug and replug the USB -> PS/2
interface when the keyboard is non-responsive is a pain, but I love it. It's a
pleasant monthly ritual to remove the keys and clean them. In a time where
everything is fast moving and development tools / environments / libraries
seem to get old quickly, my keyboard is a timeless anchor that grounds my
development work, and will also prove to be a handy melee weapon come zombie-
apocalypse time...

~~~
kw71
I felt the same thing until after some years I started getting terrible pain
in my wrists. It was the IBM keyboard I prized so much and held on to. Then I
found some cherry keyboards in the trash in a pile of Point of Sale discards.
Now for ten years, "garbage" as been the most prominent and stable feature of
my workspace.

~~~
deno
I don’t want to sound like Apple but you are probably using it wrong. I’ve
seen people get used to typing on flat chicklet laptop keyboards and then
taking those habits over to the proper old style keyboard.

An IBM keyboard is not meant for a typist that keeps their palms resting on
desk while slumping in their chair. It’s meant for you to sit up straight and
_hover_ your palms over the keyboard.

If you type like that then it seems effortless and the keys feel light and
you’ll never have any wrist issues. Reaching the numpad area is also easy
because your hand is already in the air. A proper typing technique is like jiu
jitsu—it leverages the weight of your entire hand and arm to assist with the
key presses. Your hand is loose and mobile, so nerve compression is less
likely. On a chicklet keyboard your fingers are mobile but the palms are
“glued” in place. This encourages lots of “flexing” the fingers to reach
farther placed keys, instead of just moving your entire hand in the “hover”
typist approach. My guess is this creates ideal conditions for nerve
compression.

The pain is _good thing_ because it lets you know you’re doing something
_wrong._ Using keyboard with low actuation force is just masking the problem.
If you do something wrong with less force you will not feel any pain
immediately. Same thing as people using shitload of fluffy pillows instead of
fixing their sleeping posture. If you sleep on floor it might be uncomfortable
at first but it also forces you into better posture, instead of making it
bearable to hold a wrong one.

~~~
simias
You do sound a bit like Apple in the sense that you posit that your way is the
right way but you don't really justify it with solid scientific arguments. My
technique is actually pretty close to the one you describe (my hands hover on
top of the keyboard, although my elbows rest on the table) but some of your
arguments sound off to me, in particular:

>A proper typing technique is like jiu jitsu—it leverages the weight of your
entire hand and arm to assist with the key presses.

Given the relatively high typing frequency a decent typist reaches and the
fact that you generally start typing the next key before you're done with the
current one I can't really see how that would work. My palms are mostly static
while I type, just hovering gently above the keyboard. They do translate a bit
on the horizontal plane but I definitely don't really lower them to drive the
key down. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but if you reach a somewhat decent typing
speed of a few hundred keys per seconds that makes for a pretty spastic
vibration with your whole hand.

Also I think it's a bit condescending to assume that every people who ends up
with RSI or similar problems were "doing something wrong".

~~~
deno
If you have elbows on desk you are probably not sitting up straight. Anyway
you are wrong, when the elbow is free you can put your weight into typing.
Just try it. It’s a bit of a flick of the wrist for weak fingers and slight up
and down movement with your bicep, it’s not a lot but it translates to a lot
of force. It’s the same principle as using your hips to put a punch in boxing
or martial arts.

When your palms or elbows are resting all those movements are limited and your
hands quickly tense up.

Here’s an explanation of the RSI issue and flat palms:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pryYfH9j5o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pryYfH9j5o)
however their fix is not great and it’s not a sustainable position

EDIT: Here’s a quick sketch: [http://svgur.com/s/7e6](http://svgur.com/s/7e6)
The fingers are below the palms not at the same level, but this is only
natural if your back is straight. Arm should bend at close to 90°

EDIT2: Or look at this piano posture video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0)
especially at 6:06 mark.

------
CaliforniaKarl
In case anyone's curious, the animated GIF in the header is showing a WASD
6-Key Cherry MX Switch Tester. I've found it useful in trying out the "feel"
of different Cherry MX models. It's helped to translate the "key travel vs.
force" graphs into the real-world.

It's available at [http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/sampler-
kit/...](http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/sampler-
kit/wasd-6-key-cherry-mx-switch-tester.html)

[I'm not affiliated with WASD, and I'm not getting paid for this, although a
discount code would be awesome! 8-)]

~~~
FullyFunctional
I have another generic one, but it's trivial to 3D print your own. However, I
found that it didn't actually inform how I would like the key when used in
anger. Only actually using it in a keyboard would do that.

So far I'm using three different (non-Cherry) MX keys: lightest and linear for
the weakest fingers which are typically modifiers, heaviest for the center row
strong fingers.

~~~
boojums
That's a neat idea.

------
RichardHeart
Tool fetishes... Sadly, thought I have about 100 keyboards, of every shape,
size, switch, My record typing speed is on a 15 dollar logitech k120. It's
pretty much for the sound and the art of it, more than the utility. Wish I
knew that when I started. And lost a couple WPM over kinesys advantage and
ergodox learning...

~~~
sohkamyung
Keyboards, I believe, are a personal thing. Some people can live with any kind
of keyboard. Others may need to feel the 'click' and feedback from the pressed
keys.

I personally can live with some keyboards but not others. I'm currently typing
on a USB based Thinkpad keyboard and like it. On the other hand, a Dell
keyboard that came with my office system had a 'mushy' feel like I was typing
on a dead fish that completely turned me off using that keyboard. :-)

~~~
usrusr
I think that it is mostly familiarity, and once you start thinking about it
you quickly begin to think to much and get lost in bad rationalizations,
eventually bordering on the religious. When you believe that you can't
overcome lack of familiarity you will never adopt, self-fulfilling prophecy.

My personal familiarity idol happens to be the Cherry rubber sheet series,
kind of ironic among all the MX hype.

------
almostkorean
Are there any proper mechanical keyboards for Mac? I've looked around and
haven't found anything that fits what I'm looking for.

I know Das makes a Mac keyboard, but the command key is too far to the left.
When you look at an Apple keyboard, the command key aligns to be directly
below 'x', making it easy to reach with your thumb. I think the lower height
on Apple keyboards helps as well.

The closest thing I've found are a couple keyboards on Massdrop that do have
the Alt/Command key further to the right but they are sold out by the time I
find them.

~~~
chapium
What exactly is a "Mac" keyboard? I'm looking at a macbook keyboard and a Dell
laptop keyboard. The only difference I can see are the Control, Fn, Super, and
Alt keys are rearranged. There is an extra right super on the macbook, but no
right control key.

~~~
dizzystar
The spacing on Mac and Windows keyboards definitely feel different, and are
rather disorienting if you are used to Windows style keyboards. There is no
del on Mac either.

------
FullyFunctional
NB: at least in Denmark, micro-switches were not known as "Cherry switches".
American bias much? (Similarly for "Kleenex", "Q-tip", "Xerox", all of which
are known by they generic names in Denmark and, AFAIK, the rest of Europe).

~~~
oliwarner
Does _anyone_ use "Cherry switches" as a generic term?

~~~
lghh
They use "Cherry steam" as a way to describe the stem, but only really
generic, $20 amazon keyboards ever use the word Cherry unless they actually
have Cherry switches. A lot of newer, more boutique boards don't use Cherry,
there are a lot of new and interesting Cherry stem switches not made by them.

~~~
blattimwind
Pretty much no way a $20 keyboard _can_ have Cherry switches. Even the highest
volume (MX Black) are ~30 cents at quantity, so a full set of keys for a
keyboard already comes in at ~30 EUR.

------
FullyFunctional
The greatest attraction of MX is that the selection of keycaps (pimpmykeyboard
PBT keys are awesome) and compatible clones. The biggest drawback is that it's
a pretty big and tall key. I hope ML becomes more popular as an alternative.

~~~
Lanrei
Haven't you heard about the new low-profile cherry MX switches? Also Kailh
choc switches are much better than Cherry ML.

~~~
FullyFunctional
I appreciate the pointer(s), but lack of good keycaps is a major demotivator
for me; I find the key cap almost as important as the switch (SA "Ice Cap" in
PBT is therapy for my fingers). EDIT: wording

~~~
Lanrei
I have Ice Caps - they sure are warped. Personally I'm looking forward to KAT
profile, as well as MDA (with readable the legends) and MT3.

I would expect you to be interested in DSS and the new SA-P from SP.

------
jimmyswimmy
Interesting. The company also owned a semiconductor division which it sold in
2000. Peter Cherry used the proceeds to take the company private and refocus
on the switch division. I did not realize that the company was subsequently
resold.

~~~
joezydeco
Cherry was a primary supplier of plasma dot-matrix displays for the amusement
and industrial sectors as well.

[https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/dmd-plasma-dot-
matrix...](https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/dmd-plasma-dot-matrix-
display-pinball-506322312)

[https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/cherry-brand-large-
do...](https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/cherry-brand-large-dot-matrix-
display-518316642)

------
myrandomcomment
Typing this on a FILCO Majestouch Convertible2 FKBC91MRL/JB2 with Cherry Red
switches. I have the same keyboard at home and work. Proper keyboards make so
much difference in speed and accuracy of typing for me.

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
Not just that, I think that having vastly-different keyboards at home vs. at
work increases keyboarding errors in at least one of those locations. I have a
Model M at home, but an Apple keyboard (I think a model A1243) at work. I'm
working on ordering a WASD keyboard with Cherry MX Clear switches, in an
attempt to get things more similar (the office environment I'm in doesn't work
with the noisy Model M).

~~~
gh02t
Eh, you get used to it. I swap between a Kinesis Advantage, a compact with
Reds, and a laptop keyboard, which are all about as different as possible and
my typing speed and accuracy is about the same on all three. I actually score
slightly higher for typing speed on the crappy laptop keyboard from doing
speed tests.

Comfort is a completely different story though and I vastly prefer typing on
the Kinesis. Being the most comfortable for the task is important when it
comes to avoiding RSI.

~~~
ghaff
I used to be pretty hardcore about having the right mechanical keyboard
everywhere. But now I work a lot of the time on a variety of laptop keyboards
as well as the mechanical keyboard on my iMac and I pretty much make do. like
my mechanical keyboard but even when I'm working from home (i.e. much of the
time), I end up working on my laptop in a variety of locations around the
house.

------
kowdermeister
This guy does the most hilarious keyboard reviews:

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD0y51PJfvkZNe3y3FR5riw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD0y51PJfvkZNe3y3FR5riw)

(actually it's just a channel dedicated to keyboards)

------
skocznymroczny
I tried various mech keyboards, and in the long run, I don't think they're any
better than say Logitech k120 or Apple Wired keyboard. Actually, I love the
Apple Wired keyboard, I wish there was a variant with non-Mac layout, or
perhaps in dark color.

The biggest issue I have with mech keyboards is how tall they are. It
instantly makes my wrists hurt because I haven't used such tall keyboards
since the 90's. I prefer to lay my hands almost flat on the keyboard. Although
I've been using a keyboard with low-profile Kailh switches lately and it's
pretty nice to type on.

~~~
CarVac
Laying your hands flat is just asking for making your wrists hurt in the long
term, no matter what board you do it on.

------
samstave
I think it would be amazing to see a single keyboard built that had all the
keys atop a random switch platform. :-)

Just to see people type on it.

~~~
nasredin
FYI there's a couple mech keyboards with swappable switches (without
soldering).

IIRC they have the ugly "gamer" font that every Chinese keyboard has now.

