
Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout - frozenport
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-25/windmills-overload-east-europe-s-grid-risking-blackout-energy
======
gwright
Lots of armchair quarterbacks in this thread.

The actual operation of an electric grid is a delicate balancing act between
supply and demand.

    
    
      -- the grid needs to respond in real-time to changes in supply/demand (weather induced outages, Germany using your grid as an energy sink)
      -- the grid needs to respond to daily fluctuations (day/night cycles, cold day, warm day, etc)
      -- the grid needs to respond to medium-term fluctions (scheduled maintenance on plants and infrastructure, seasonal variations, price of coal, natural-gas, oil, etc)
      -- the grid needs to respond to long-term fluctuations (new infrastructure, recessions, regional economic growth or decline, technological changes, etc.)
    

On top of all this, governments can change the regulatory environment on a
whim thus invalidating many decisions made with previous assumptions.

Back to the original article, wind energy is particularlly problematic for the
grid because its output is highly variable, not predictable in the short-term,
can not be economically stored except in specialized cases, and is rife with
government-induced market distortions that are also not all that predictable
in the medium and long term.

------
DasIch
The real problem here is that the Europe's and specifically Germany's grid is
not designed to handle the huge variations imposed my plants using renewable
energy. It was designed with nuclear, coal and gas power plants in mind that
create relatively constant and easily predictable amounts of energy.

This hasn't really been a problem before but with real interest and focus on
that problem it will surely be solved and will eventually be small footnote as
a short term problem we once had on the way to a future in which we will
produce energy solely from renewable sources.

The fact that Germany is producing more energy than it knows what to do with
is actually good news as it shows that the Energiewende is working.

~~~
redwood
Right on: this is an exciting opportunity for grid management. A number of
transitions will have to occur: movement toward more peaky-capable baseload
generation, probably through natural gas turbines, movement toward storage
etc.

At the very least it's surprising they aren't pumping water uphill, or just
shutting down hydro throughput, in these time periods. Or perhaps Europe's
system of hydro electric dams isn't large enough.

~~~
DasIch
Northern Germany like the Netherlands consists entirely of flat land, so there
are no hills to pump water up. Further more such solutions require a river
relatively close to the hill that runs with enough water that the pumps have
enough work to do and that can easily handle the water when you drain it.

Even so such plants are used in the Middle and South of Germany where hills
and mountains exists but you have to get the energy there and Poland is
closer.

~~~
redwood
Germany has a unified grid, I'm sure. We need to remember how small Germany
is: smaller than California, for example and California relies on everything
hydro from the Pacific Northwest all the way down to mountain western state
coal. In anticipation of hot days the Pacific Northwest actually stops water
flow on river dams to allow them to peak at high price points.

There is probably a middle point here tho: Europe may have proportionally less
hydro available. In fact it looks like Germany now has more wind capacity than
hydro (something no where near achieved in California) so you're right: they
might not be able to make it up that way.

~~~
pcl
> Germany has a unified grid, I'm sure.

The article seemed to indicate that this is not the case, and that until the
south and north parts of the grid are well-connected domestically, excess
power from the north gets routed south via Poland and the Czech Republic.

~~~
Gravityloss
one more problem is that mainland Denmark is well connected to Germany and not
to Jylland, which is connected to Scandinavia. Scandinavia has mountains and
operates th Nordpool market.

A HVDC network going from north african deserts to norwegian n mountains could
solve some problems.

------
silvestrov
It's like the writer doesn't know that windmills can be stopped. In fact, they
have builtin brakes which autoengage and stops the mill when the wind becomes
too powerful.

~~~
Gring
Exactly. So the question is, when facing the risk of a black-out, why don't
they just stop the windmills?

And in the long term, why is Europe not building more Pumped-storage
hydroelectric power plants, which would solve the issue?
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-
storage_hydroelectricit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-
storage_hydroelectricity))

~~~
anonymouz
Reading on, the problem seems to be not really specific to the windmills
themselves, but to the fact that Germany is transmitting a lot of power from
the North (where the windmills are) to the South (where the industry is).
There is also a lot of transfer between Austria and Germany going on (with
Austria's hydroelectric pumped-storage power stations essentially serving as
batteries), and the Czech's are unhappy that their grid is used for this
transmission for free.

------
Loic
One thing that everybody forget is that with agreement with the main power
producers in Germany, the government of Gerhard Schröder (10 years ago)
started the plan to built the network to link North Germany to the South for
renewable energy production together with the agreed shutdown of the nuclear
powerplants in 2020. Once the left/green government was replaced with the
current one, the big power producers did a nice lobbying not to shutdown the
powerplants and thus delayed the building of the network. But the laws to
develop renewable energies (and the subsidies going with) were not changed.
Thus, we ended up with a lot of individuals, small and medium companies
building small "power plants" with wind and solar energy. A lot was done in
the North because of good winds combined with cheap land. End result, power
imbalance.

Also, the power network is still very "former East - former West" built, which
is not helping. We had 3 years ago a blackout of the West while the East
(which includes the part with most of the windmills) was still up.

At the end, the problem is mainly because of the delayed investment from the
network operators and they are now affected by their own unwillingness to
build the network. From a financial point of view, it is easy to understand
because they are mainly coal/gas/nuclear producers and they would have had to
build a network which would then be used by their competitors...

~~~
rainysunday
> Also, the power network is still very "former East - former West" built,
> which is not helping. We had 3 years ago a blackout of the West while the
> East (which includes the part with most of the windmills) was still up.

You're right that the former east has its "own" grid operator [1], but there
is much more installed wind power in the north west[2].

[1]
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromnetzbetreiber#Netzbetreibe...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromnetzbetreiber#Netzbetreiber)
[2] <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windenergie#Deutschland>

------
sehugg
A utility in Texas offers free power between 10 PM and 6 AM:
[http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/18/txu-is-first-to-offer-
fr...](http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/18/txu-is-first-to-offer-free-night-
time-electricity-rate-plan/)

Makes for some very interesting arbitrage opportunities, even if it is
residential only (I assume).

~~~
nlh
Bitcoin mining perhaps? If I recall, after the initial hardware investment,
electricity cost is the main variable to a successful mining operation. Reduce
that cost to $0 and it suddenly becomes significantly more appealing...

------
jerven
This is not uncommon with other forms of generation with high capital cost and
low production opportunity costs. The Netherlands almost managed to melt the
Belgian high power grid importing very cheap French power a few years back.
The French nuclear power plants would produce anyway even if they only made a
single cent as one cent is better than no cent ;) Windmills owners have the
same issue, once build cost of energy production is near zero so sell what you
make for what ever the market will pay. Gas, oil and coal stop producing the
moment the fuel becomes more expensive than the worth of the produced energy
(bound by shut down and start up times).

I expect the same solution. More transmission capability or charging more and
fixing the market issue. This really is a market issue in that the east
europeans don't charge enough for transmission costs to stop the Germans from
doing.

Production variation is a problem but not such a big one as price volatility
and consumer (demand) volatility. i.e. power demands at peak times. i.e. when
everyone wakes up and turns on their coffee machine etc...

Large (esp. direct drive) windfarms are actually good at dealing with the
demand volatility as they can spin up and down in minutes. While weather
volatility is in the hours. Same day weather forecast is very good. So inside
a grid windfarms are nice. Its when transmitting outside the grid like nuclear
they can be mean to other producers.

~~~
Gravityloss
It is actually very interesting to look at different power plants' startup
price thresholds. Nukes and wind are always on, as they cost littleöto keep
"on". Hydro depends on time of year, reservoir size etc. Coal is kind of in
the middle. If you use the waste heat for district heating in the winter, the
logic changes. Natural gas is the last thing turned on. The plants are really
cheap to build but gas costs a lot. Depends if you have a deal with Russia. It
is an interesting and multifaceted field.

------
TamDenholm
Theres gunna be big money to the company that can figure out how to store huge
masses of energy for months, but no doubt thats decades away.

However, is there a more simple solution to this problem, like approaching an
industry that already uses masses of energy and seeing if they can encourage
them to use the energy when there is overloading? I'm unsure what that
industry would be.

Surely using an overabundance of energy is a solvable problem? It seems
bizarre to me that it wouldnt be.

~~~
celticjames
There's a great sci-fi novel, The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi, set in a
post-oil world where tightly wound springs are used to store energy, as we do
now with clocks. One of the subplots deals with a character trying to develop
a material that can be wound tighter and more compactly without breaking. Or
explosively unwinding. I'm not an engineer or physicist, so I've wondered,
what is the theoretical limit for storing energy in a spring. Sci-fi stories
usually do a bit of handwaving with nano/bio/quantum-tech to make magic
materials, but what is the real science? Cars and laptops powered by springs
sounds plausible (and awesomely steam punk) to me.

~~~
Anechoic
_what is the theoretical limit for storing energy in a spring._

I spring is a material (usually a metal, but could be a plastic as well) that
is under stress, typically tension, torsion or compression (depending on type
of spring). The limit is basically the yield strength of the material, which
is the point where the stress vs strain curve goes nonlinear and the material
begins to plastically deform. Obviously the fracture limit represents
catastrophic failure of the material, but that is higher than the yield limit.

Basically, it's a material strength and elasticity problem.

------
quinndupont
"unlike oil, which can be stored" Oh glorious oil! This article reads like an
anti-environmental hit piece (even if it is an important issue).

------
samatman
This is the exact problem that LightSail Energy is working to solve:

<http://lightsailenergy.com/tech.html>

Another Bay Area energy startup to watch!

------
tisme
American Superconductors has a rig to help solve these problems, it is
expensive (probably more expensive than off-loading the excess to unwilling
neighbours) but it works.

<http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/amsc/description>

From a description I once read (but can't seem to locate right now) these
devices store excess power for short periods in superconducting coils to
release the power again when the consumption side needs it. That way both the
grid _and_ the windfarms are matched better to each others needs and
capabilities.

The whole thing is housed in a 40' container.

------
jakeonthemove
That's your problem? Too much energy? Why not create some buffers of sorts -
wind energy CAN be stored, you can use it to charge battery banks, extract
hydrogen, or even compress air or gas for later use. Obviously, it's not that
easy, but it's doable.

By the way, all the wind turbines I've seen can rotate their blades 90deg, so
they come to an almost full stop if/when necessary.

~~~
vidarh
The _actual_ "problem" is that Germany has pushed things to the breaking point
by waiting too long by upgrading their transmission capacity as their
generation ability in the North has increased, because they've so far been
able to get away with relying on excess transmission capacity from their
neighbours.

It's easily fixable in any number of ways. It's a matter of political will
(and cost - both investments and potentially in buying their way out of short
term obligations to prevent problems this winter), mostly.

------
srgseg
A solution: This TED video with Donald Sadoway talks about how his team is
rethinking the design of large scale batteries for storing renewable energy

[http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_...](http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy.html)

------
ilaksh
They just haven't got large scale systems designed and installed for storing
power.

Its not impossible. It just wasn't a requirement before so there hasn't been a
lot of focus. There are technologies out there right now that would probably
work ok. If not, energy storage just needs more focus.

This one looks very promising (<http://lightsailenergy.com/tech.html>) and I'm
sure there are a lot of other viable approaches.

The fact that they have excess power that needs to be stored and then
redistributed is GREAT news.

One person mentioned something about needing to store power for months.
Obviously, that long time frame is not the requirement.

------
46Bit
I wrote an essay about the requirement for energy storage last month
(<https://46bit.com/blog/2012/09/23/why-we-use-fossil-fuels/>). It's
interesting to see how interconnected countries struggle without it now,
although that's not quite the story here.

------
octatone2
They have to shut down coal fired power plants when the windmills produce
excess power. Oh, the humanity!

~~~
46Bit
I wouldn't call that a good thing. You generally can't turn off/on a coal
plant in a hurry. What they're probably doing is just braking the turbines and
still burning some fuel.

(Edited, realised it sounded confrontational to begin with.)

~~~
tvladeck
This is correct. In addition there are a number of other ways that grid
operators can displace power. This has happened a few times before in Western
Europe, and prices have even gone below zero, incentivizing industrial
facilities to do things like turn up their refrigerators to soak power

------
rwmj
It'd be cool to combine wind turbines and pumped storage. Have the windmills
simply lift water into a tank at the top. Drain the water out of the tank to
produce the power. This would act as a nice buffer, producing constant power
whatever the wind.

~~~
Gravityloss
a guy i know built a wind powered pump to water their family's potato field. A
storm came an the field was flooded. :)

------
antr
Please read between the lines, this article is a political issue.

Why don't Denmark and Spain experience such "blackouts" when these two
countries have a higher wind energy capacity/production compared to CZ/PL?

------
dromidas
Sounds like Germany should start hooking up with the dudes who figured out how
to turn electricity and water into Gasoline. Perfect energy storage.

------
Gravityloss
this seems more like a political problem than a tevhnocal one. Make
transmission costs visoble and let the checks, slovaks and poles trade in the
austro-german market.

