

MS to open source .NET micro framework - ananthrk
http://port25.technet.com/archive/2009/11/16/microsoft-to-open-source-the-net-micro-framework.aspx

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pilif
Not to be pessimistic here, but I'm sure some members of the free software
community will find something bad in this again and will make this just yet
another reason to explain why using Mono will kill Linux.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet on that.

boycott novel? where are you if I need you to win a bet?

~~~
nzmsv
Mono won't kill Linux. It just doesn't really matter, that's all. There are
equivalent (or better) tools available in the open-source world.

The problem with this announcement (here I go with the problem :) is it
doesn't really tell us whether there is a long-term commitment behind it. Only
time will tell. This can be a case of "look at Google getting all the love
with an open-source mobile platform, let's give these geeks some code".

Code just isn't everything. If MS wants to encourage adoption of their open-
source framework, they have to put someone in charge of it, and have that
someone talk to the community. Think Guido and Python. The article does
mention assigning people to do this job. Let's see how well they do. One press
release does not a development platform make.

~~~
bad_user
I'm really happy with this announcement. Microsoft is a trend-setter and
whatever the reasons behind this "opening" it really sets a powerful precedent
for future projects getting open-sourced by companies ... and
developers/entrepreneurs that believe in the power of commons are wining the
fight.

> _There are equivalent (or better) tools available in the open-source world._

No, not really.

.NET approaches the strengths of Java ... high-performance, lots of available
libraries and tools, lots of programmers working with it.

Besides Java and C/C++, it doesn't have any direct competition, and C/C++ is a
mess.

I'm working on a project right now in my free time. Because I do lots of
number-crunching on large data-sets I just couldn't afford to do it in
something like Python or Perl (my favorites) ... it doesn't have to be
optimized, but it does have to complete in a reasonable time without me
thinking about all the implications of every god-damn line of code I write. My
server resources are also limited, my VM only has 2 GB of RAM / 2 cores with 1
GHz and I can't afford another server.

The only reasonable alternative for me is Java, but I hate Java. I tried
porting my initial Python prototype to it and the results where awful. C# is
very much alike Java, but its more bearable, and some stuff like Linq is just
sweet. Not to mention that from within .NET I can also use Java libraries
through IKVM.NET ... I'm already using OpenNLP through it.

And there are also people working on Python interoperability ... IronPython is
great, and there are people working on Ironclad, an interface allowing to use
CPython extensions (like numpy, that already passes 1100 tests).

> _Code just isn't everything_

No, but the code + license is everything. The whole point of open-source
licenses is that people and companies can't be trusted, and when you're really
unhappy you can just fork.

I'm also happy with the design of many things coming out of Microsoft. I'm not
happy with Guido's ideas or with many choices in Python's design ... I only
prefer Python because of its large community and available libraries. If you
think the community has anything to say about Python's future, think again ...
there's always a core that sets directions, and any community is created
through natural-selection ... people wouldn't use Python if they wouldn't
agree with a majority of Guido's choices.

This is a good thing, please stop portraying as something bad.

~~~
rbanffy
"Microsoft is a trend-setter"

I would say "was". The 90's want your assumption back.

"and C/C++ is a mess"

As much as I dislike working in C/C++ and do prefer less primitive
technologies, C and C++ are nowhere near as ugly in Unix-like environments
than they are in Windows. Your perception of how easy is to shoot yourself in
the foot with them or how ugly is the code you have to write may stem from a
biased point-of-view. I did lots of C and C++ for Windows and Windows CE and,
boy... That's not the compact and elegant language K&R gave us.

~~~
bad_user
Oh, I know what you mean ... I'm not doing any Windows-specific development,
and when I tried, the libs were awful.

When I say C/C++ is a mess, I'm thinking more about the proliferation of
libraries that are doing the same thing ... on every project I looked at I saw
a different library for string-handling or for managing collections, and this
is just the basic stuff. Then there's socket communication, RPC, multi-
threading, GUI, and so on.

I also did a simple plugin for Varnish once, and I had to look at a lot of
source-code and ask a lot of questions on IRC for even the most basic stuff,
like ... what type is this method returning, how can I convert that to a
string, is the memory referenced by this pointer deallocated or not, and so
forth.

When you know the ins and outs of a C/C++ project it is definitely easier (or
if you're lucky enough and the project uses Qt :)).

------
daeken
This is definitely interesting, but I'd love to see other .NET framework
implementations open sourced as well. The micro framework is the only one I
know of that doesn't JIT the code, but rather interprets CIL directly, and it
also uses a simple mark-and-sweep GC.

Since footprint is the main constraint here, it'd be nice to see an optimizing
CIL compiler combined with this to produce native images. You could cut a
whole lot of code out of the runtime by doing so, while increasing performance
by a huge amount.

~~~
ananthrk
Have you seen Rotor?
([http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=8C0...](http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=8C09FD61-3F26-4555-AE17-3121B4F51D4D&displaylang=en))

~~~
daeken
Rotor is not open source. It uses a shared source license which would taint
me, making it impossible for me to work safely on any other .NET
implementation.

~~~
bad_user
That's a PITA since I was planing on studying it. Are you sure? Do you have
any references?

~~~
daeken
This is more focused on the .NET Class Libraries, but Rotor falls under this
as well. From Miguel de Icaza:
<http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Oct-03.html>

------
rbanffy
Did we see Microsoft making a statement saying they will give up the right to
sue any entity using said code for patent infringement?

Until then, this is just PR fluff. And, potentially, a trap too.

~~~
urlwolf
Actually, MS releasing open source stuff is a good thing. If all the kids do
it (google, MS), then Apple would look even more closed if it doesn't. Any
releasing open source at all is good news. Why? because I can imagine how this
can culminate on a world where the PR/marketing depts see it as a powerful way
to woo audiences (remember devs's standing ovation -and raising their laptops-
to the Wave presentation?).

The sooner this 'clicks' on any marketing high-up at Apple, the better.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
<http://www.apple.com/opensource/>

<http://opensource.apple.com/>

<http://www.macosforge.org/>

