
No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking - kareemm
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/fashion/alcoholism-no-one-to-rescue-me-from-my-drinking.html?WT.mc_id=2015-SEPTEMBER-FB-INT-LIVING_PROP-AUD_DEV-0901-0930&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=IntlAudDev&_r=0
======
mdip
I don't know how effective Alcoholics Anonymous really is (not saying one way
or the other), but having the accountability placed on you by friends is a
helpful thing in many other tough situations in life. You can see it
underlying many useful bits of advice ("Have a cofounder" always comes to mind
-- someone to motivate you when you're unable to do so yourself, perhaps?)

Addiction is no joke and anything that can provide relief or help to those who
have found themselves caught up in it would be a huge thing. I always think
back to a former friend of mine who battled with opiates. She lost her family
and children -- well after she had completed a recovery program and been sober
for a year. When she started with pills there was a very good reason --
several surgeries and a lot of pain management. When the pain was well and
gone, she was left with a strong addiction. The woman she was before she
started popping pills regularly and the woman she is now (completely sober)
are different people. She told me that long term opiate addiction changes your
brain chemistry in such a way that depression becomes a way of life -- I'm not
sure if that's true, but it looks like it is with her. The worst part is that
her marriage problems started well after she had cleaned up. Her husband,
still a friend, said he couldn't stand the woman she'd become and confessed to
me that he sometimes wished she'd never stopped. Before the judgement starts,
he's a solid guy and I stand by his decision to fight for full custody of his
children (you'd have to understand the whole story which I can't do justice to
here).

Her description of addiction still haunts me, though. She said "you need it
like you need food after having not eaten for a week". She's done a week long
fast (as have I). She'd know. That description is the only thing I've heard
that adequately explains why addicts will put their children in harms way if
it means getting their next fix (ever wonder why cigarette prices can go up
600% in two years and people still smoke?). I watched her become completely
broke buying pills from scary people in scary places. I've heard from others
some of the things she was willing to do to get enough pills to get her
through a day; it's way beyond what you already couldn't imagine a suburban
mother of 4 doing.

~~~
blazespin
Alcoholism isn't so much about addiction as it is about binge drinking. Lots
of people have a couple of drinks everyday and function quite well. It's the
four manhattans in quick succession where things go awry.

~~~
venomsnake
No it is not. Binge drinking is completely different (and harmless compared to
alcoholism phenomenon). You usually grow out of binge drinking by your 18-19th
birthday.

~~~
simoncion
> You usually grow out of binge drinking by your 18-19th birthday.

Except when you don't, as was the case with some adults that I spent a large
chunk of my life with. Binge drinking _is_ a different kind of alcoholism, but
it is _still_ alcoholism.

------
madaxe_again
Ah, this rang so many bells. My ex of ten years ago drank huge amounts and was
in utter denial about there even being a possibility of a problem. I used to
have to go out and find her, usually asleep in an alley, or passed out in a
bar's toilets - the worst occasion was when she threw a brick at me, as I had
come to pry her away from a bar, and the recoil sent her tumbling into the
Thames, in December - fished her out - and the next morning she was convinced
I had pushed her in. Stabbed me with a stiletto heel a few months later,
because I was trying to stop her hurling our furniture from a fifth story
window.

Ultimately we broke up as it's remarkably easy to bamboozle a drunk into
admitting that yes, they have cheated on you dozens of times with dozens of
men.

This woman is a high court judge now. As far as I can tell, most barristers
and judges are full blown alcoholics. For some reason I loved her - probably
in the same way as I love my three legged cat - broken, piteous things, both.

I suppose the point of where I'm going is that the only person who can rescue
you is yourself. I tried for far too long for both of our sakes.

~~~
dylanz
Man, what a chapter of your life. I've had something similar, and it's amazing
to what extreme trials and tribulations you'll go through with someone during
a relationship. I like to think we learn a lot from these experiences, so
maybe the three legged cats are there for a reason.

~~~
madaxe_again
It was heartbreaking - both because she betrayed me, but moreso because I
realised that I was no small part of what was making her worse - she was
dashing herself to pieces between the guilt she felt over her trespasses and
the righteous indignation she felt at me trying to help her...

I've not spoken with her in a decade, I hope she's at least found a way of
living with her demons - but as I said, drinking is a huge part of the legal
professional culture, so as long as she's inured in that world, I don't know
what hope there is.

Either way, it's her life. I guess the main thing I learned is that kindness
can kill, be careful how you apply it.

------
meesles
This is a very beautiful story, but not very thought-provoking and it doesn't
really offer anything new. (To me, at least)

~~~
mschuster91
The point is, how many of us techies suffer from similar problems? After all,
many alcoholics started excessive drinking due to stress - and I'd say the
startup world is filled with people under loads of stress.

80-hour weeks are going to take a cut of your soul and I wonder sometimes how
many of us are trying to replace said cut with alcohol or other drugs.

------
siliconc0w
On a similar topic - AA actually isn't that effective:
[http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoho...](http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/)

I haven't read the book the above article is covering but it seems Dodes
argues psychotherapy is a better alternative as 'addiction' is usually just a
manifestation of self-destructive/self medication behavior ultimately due to
untreated psychological issues. In this OP's case this is looks like it was
depression - though it's unclear if she is seeking treatment outside of AA.

~~~
speeder
I clearly have some kind of vice related to caffeine...

In the hardest periods of my life I managed to guzzle 6 liters of coca-cola
every day, plus eating lots of chocolate, and drinking lots of coffee and tea,
of course this also ruined my overall health.

I recently managed to "get clean", but I also stopped working, then I gave up,
decided to buy 1 liter of red-bull style energy drink (not redbull itself
because I can't afford it), drink it all in one go...

then I could work, and I felt MUCH better... but I am also drinking lots of
coca-cola and eating lots of chocolate again.

I am seeing a psychiatrist, and seemly I have ADHD, and caffeine (and other
stimulants) are a common way to self-medicate, and many ADHD sufferers,
specially those not on legal meds, end having some strong vices (not only
stopping at caffeine... cocaine, meth, and other strongly stimulant drugs
abuse is also common).

I started taking Ritalin (Adderall is illegal here) this week, for now only
half a pill per day, because my psychiatrist is inexperienced and probably
wants to be safe, let's see if with it (and an increased dosage later) I will
be able to stop abusing caffeine, my kidneys (that had stones) and my liver
(that is covered in fat to the point of failing to work properly) will thank
me. (I am also going to a psychologist...)

~~~
port6667
A liter of redbull subsitute? You sound like an addict just since you're
talking quantities of caffeine.

I hope you get past this. it's especially difficult because a lot of people
don't realize caffene is a drug. Like watching a couple who drink three
bottles of wine a day talk down on someone for drinking a liter of spirits as
an alcoholic.

They're one and the same.

~~~
simoncion
> You sound like an addict just since you're talking quantities of caffeine.

I might have misunderstood what you were trying to say. If I did, I apologise
in advance:

Because I get a day-long headache whenever I don't drink a caffeinated
beverage for a day or so, I know that I'm a caffeine addict.

Speaking about volumes of ingestible substances with somewhat-known properties
to provide a general idea of how much of a thing one is ingesting doesn't mean
that one is an addict; it means that one is interested in attempting to convey
information somewhat precisely. If you don't specify things in known
quantities, you're left with vague and imprecise descriptors like "some", "not
much", and "a lot".

------
billjings
I have a short list of books that I recommend that have changed my worldview.
First and foremost on that list is Bruce Alexander's _The Globalization Of
Addiction_: [http://www.amazon.com/The-Globalization-Addiction-Poverty-
Sp...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Globalization-Addiction-Poverty-
Spirit/dp/0199588716)

If you've got the bug, that book is not going to help you. It'll just tell you
how screwed you are. If you don't have the bug, I think that book might help
you understand the problem.

~~~
gigamuflon
Sorry for going off-topic but I'd be interested seeing your reading list. Care
to share it?

~~~
billjings
It's not like I have it written down, but...

* Plato's Republic. It's not meant to be read alone, I think. Read it with a like minded group of folks a book at a time. Our discussions of this work still inform how I think of all the ways people form groups together, in more or less ideal forms. * The Master And His Emissary. This book opened up the ancient worldview to me, and also gave me a strong rap on the head that "figuring things out" might not be the best way to navigate through life.

------
siliconc0w
On a similar topic - AA actually isn't that effective:
[http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoho...](http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/)

I haven't read the book the above article is covering but it seems Dodes
argues psychotherapy is a better alternative as 'addiction' is usually just a
manifestation of self-destructive/self medication behavior ultimately due to
untreated psychological issues. In this OP's case this is looks like
depression.

~~~
FilterSweep
The underlying philosophy of AA is often ignored by the general public and
involves an ego death the likes of which have very few equals. You are
indoctrinated to the fact that not only do you have a "disease," or problem,
but you are also a weak human being for having succumbed to such disease in
the first place.

Fortunately most people don't take the entire philosophy of the group to heart
- if they did, I couldn't imagine the psychological toll it would create on an
attendee.

~~~
mikestew
_but you are also a weak human being for having succumbed to such disease in
the first place._

That's pretty much the antithesis of the AA philosophy, as well as the exact
opposite of the "alcoholism is a disease" thinking. IOW, no one thinks you got
cancer because you're a "weak human being". If there's any "ego death"
involved, it's that you're not going to solve this in your own.

Source: attended my share of AA meetings and even read the book.

~~~
FilterSweep
>Source: anecdotal data

trashing those who you don't agree with isn't a fair justification to
downvote.

My point is proven in the _first_ and _third_ steps of the program, In the
admission that you have a problem, and that you are helpless to solve the
problem yourself, respectively. [0][1]

What about your point? Your personal opinion of it? It is the admission that
you are _helpless_ to your disease, and it is that very reason _you don 't
have the self efficacy to overcome your issues yourself_.

An ego death involves, in albeit, sometimes flawed Jungian psychology a loss
of identity, and A transformation of ones psyche in such a way that the Self
is not perceived the same way after such transformation.[2]

MY argument is that AA involves such ego death in that your _admission over
having a lack of self-efficacy in solving your own alcoholism is
transformative_ , and you can't do it without the group or other external
help, a la Step 3.

I am a different person than you. I find my inability to solve problems for
myself _weakness_.

And just because you disagree, instead of positing an argument against my
thoughts, you downvote my comment and claim you "read the book."

This was the same exact fashion of discourse that had me leave AA in the first
place. I handled "alcoholism" differently. My life is a legal nightmare but
alcohol isn't a personal issue.

In sum: People read things differently. But you don't see my flagging your
comments because I disagree.

[0] a real source: [http://www.alcoholic.org/research/aa-
step-1/](http://www.alcoholic.org/research/aa-step-1/)

[1] [http://www.alcoholic.org/research/aa-
step-3/](http://www.alcoholic.org/research/aa-step-3/)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death)

my source: sentenced to AA, went to a few meetings, found it damaging, and
worked out an alternative treatment plan with court.

~~~
mikestew
Man, were you not so pissy over imaginary internet points I might engage and
show where you might have misinterpreted. However, I get the impression that
engagement isn't what you're looking for, just agreement or silence.
Regardless, I wish you well with your recovery, or whatever you wish to call
it.

------
tossit123
weird that she just flat breaks AA tradition 11 "we need always maintain
personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.”

The reason this is so important is that should this woman have a "slip" \-
which LOTS of alcoholics do - now the world, and needy alcoholics, have one
more reason to dismiss AA.

Try it before you judge it.

AA finds u when u need it, not to be traded for a drunkalog to generate page
views.

~~~
throwaway999777
> The reason this is so important is that should this woman have a "slip" \-
> which LOTS of alcoholics do - now the world, and needy alcoholics, have one
> more reason to dismiss AA.

> Try it before you judge it.

An organization that tries to inflate its own public success rate, and then
asks people to keep an open mind towards it rather than dismiss it. Ok.

~~~
vernie
Yea, better to do nothing, I'm sure it'll sort itself out.

~~~
throwaway999777
Yes. You can either do AA or do nothing with your problem. That's the only two
options in the world.

Jeez these AA PR snippets are just stellar.

------
jheriko
i wonder if this was a man how the story would go.

much worse i'd imagine :/

~~~
hashberry
I was thinking the same thing. It seems people are more forgiving of a woman's
transgressions. For example, the bar manager who put her in a cab after four
Manhattans. I'm trying to imagine a bar manager walking a drunk man out and
putting him in a cab... unless this type of thing is common in New York?

~~~
EliRivers
Having done some work in my (relative) youth in situations where people got
drunk sometimes, for me it was about self-protection. Some drunk people, when
you try to help them out, get aggressive. Even if they don't get outright
violent, that they threaten is just not pleasant.

So I would tend to be reluctant to help people that were above a certain size
or physicality. Smaller people were much less of a threat, and I was exposing
myself to less danger by helping them. Women, with their tendency on average
to be both shorter, lighter and having a smaller proportion of muscle,
happened to be below this "physical threat" threshold far more often than men.

Some regulars I'd see intoxicated enough to know that they weren't the violent
drunk type and they'd often get a helping hand, even if they were twice my
size. Conversely, some small people I knew were the violent drunk type and I
didn't get involved.

------
Nadya
TL;DR being "You can lead a horse to fresh water but you can't make it drink."

Or in this case; not drink.

I agree with meesles sentiment.

------
aaron695
This article to me is about depression not alcohol addiction as the author
points out -

> The absence of alcohol revealed that my “dark soul” was the manifestation of
> a decades-long depression. Booze had masked its diagnosis while also egging
> it on.

They to me are more talking about binge drinking.

I'm not sure an addict can just go to one AA meeting and stop. Sure it's
possible, but to me they didn't sound like an addict, more self destructive.

------
Animats
Note the total lack of self-blame, or taking responsibility for one's own
problems. Even the title, "No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking", puts the
blame on someone, anyone, else.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
I could never be an alcoholic, alcohol does nothing for me except dulling the
senses. But there were kids I knew, from the first drink of their lives, it
made them a different, less stressed, happier person. It was like heroin (I
imagine, never tried it). Point is, some people genetically have an alcohol
problem. And this person is writing about it, exposing themself to potential
criticism like this, and taking action about it. Does judging this person make
you feel like a better person? Because it's not helpful in any way. If you've
avoided problems, good for you. If you haven't, and you've had struggles, it
doesn't make you a hero, and it doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you a
human being.

~~~
fredkbloggs
> kids I knew, from the first drink of their lives, it made them a different,
> less stressed, happier person.

> Point is, some people genetically have an alcohol problem.

Can you explain how you got from point A to point B above? I don't understand
how your observation implies dependency, addiction, or any of the numerous
problems that alcoholism causes in someone's life.

It is also true that some people have inherited traits that interfere with
processing alcohol. But I don't understand how you can conclude that someone
has such a trait from observing their behavior when drinking, nor how you
conclude that such a person is an alcoholic. In fact, perhaps the most common
genetic quirk (it's not really a defect) is a missing encoding for alcohol
dehydrogenase, which according to Wikipedia
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction))
is correlated with _lower_ rates of alcoholism. Of course, others exist also.

Not really interested in the emotional reactions here on either side. Just
interested in why/how you conclude that these three things are strongly
correlated/causal.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
What are you arguing exactly... no one has an exceptional reaction to drinking
that suggests a possible future problem, so I couldn't have seen one? alcohol
has the same effect on everyone? no one gets addicted? alcoholism doesn't have
a genetic component?

I observe someone undergoes a huge personality change after drinking and seems
a lot happier. I get a sense that this person might have difficulty consuming
in moderation.

It seems consistent with a physiological or genetic basis. Not trying to win a
prize in genetics or logic, just to use common sense to understand the human
behavior I'm seeing.

I guess it's also possible something our mothers did while pregnant made the
difference. I believe Occam's Razor and the body of evidence point to a
genetic basis. What do you think the evidence points to?

~~~
RockyMcNuts
Another drunk memoir ...

> As a lot of drunks report, introducing alcohol into my body just felt like
> "Ooh, there we go. Here I am." Sort of like it elegantly completed a
> chemical equation of some kind.

[http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a25749/rob-delaney-
red-...](http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a25749/rob-delaney-red-flag/)

I can't relate to that at all...alcohol has no interesting effect on me.
There's a science in studying genes and chemistry, and a sort of science in
just observing people and life and storing things and noticing patterns and
developing hypotheses.

