
Interpol issues 'red notice' for Carlos Ghosn's arrest - dynamite-ready
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50972149
======
rossdavidh
Not particularly well informed on this, just want to point out to those trying
to decide between scenario 1 (Ghosn broke the law with impunity because he was
a CEO and felt entitled) and scenario 2 (Ghosn is really being persecuted for
being a non-Japanese CEO of a Japanese company), that it is logically possible
for both to be true. In other words, like Martha Stewart, he might not have
been doing anything that his peers weren't also doing, but also doing things
that were illegal.

Of course, the fact that scenarios 1 and 2 are not incompatible, is not proof
that they both happened, just pointing out that it is logically possible for
both to be true.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Escaping state surveillance from Japan and then landing up in Lebanon via
Turkey while the Japanese government has all three of one’s passports pretty
much requires breaking _lots_ of laws in at least three countries. (Likely
more, _e.g._ money laundering.)

One could argue this was a rightful fleeing of persecution. But it complicates
the picture on many levels.

EDIT: looks like he kept a second French passport [1]. He would have only had
to break many laws in two countries, mostly around aviation and declaration.

[1]
[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/01/02/national/carlos...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/01/02/national/carlos-
ghosn-met-lebanese-president-fleeing-japan-sources-say/)

~~~
gryson
As reported in the news, he had two French passports and was allowed to carry
one of them in Japan in a locked case. Presumably he broke the lock and used
it to enter Turkey and Lebanon.

~~~
k_sze
I didn't know that a person can simultaneously have two valid passports of the
same country. I thought you either have to declare the old one as lost or
bring it to the passport office to have it invalidated, when you apply for a
new one.

How does this work?

~~~
wereHamster
People traveling through the middle east and Israel often have two passports.
One they show the israeli immigration officers, and the other they show
elsewhere. Israel will interrogate when you show up on their borders with an
stamp in your passport from on of the arabic states. It's just a way to get
around this kind of hassle.

~~~
nataz
Israel doesn't stamp anymore (at least the last few times I was there). You
now get a small slip of paper instead. I presume for this very reason.

~~~
Scoundreller
Even if you’re entering for business?

~~~
nataz
I've only ever gone for business.

------
nataz
Just a quick note on INTERPOL since the original title was misleading. [1]

INTERPOL is basically an information sharing organization that connects police
forces in different countries.

It has no authority on of it's own. It's not a police force or law enforcement
agency. It can't issue warrants or make arrests.

Basically, they are the holders of a bunch of databases that each country's
official poc (national coordinating body - "NCB") can query, enter data into,
and receive notices from.

Notices come in different colors. A red notice is an information alert by the
host county (Japan in this case) to other national police forces that a
subject is wanted for prosecution. Other country's police forces can choose
what they want to do with this request. A red notice is not an indication of
guilt.

Most red notices are restricted to only law enforcement officials and the
subject/public won't even know about them. This makes sense if you are
actually trying to capture someone.

You make a notice public for two reasons.

1, you need the public's help in finding someone. That's not the case here
since we know where the target is.

2, you are making a political point.

I suspect Japan's legal and law enforcement community was seriously
embarrassed. If they actually wanted to/thought they could capture him, they
would have reached out discreetly to other agencies via a law enforcement only
read notice/and or other diplomatic means.

INTERPOL is a fascinating international organization and it's interesting to
watch all the geopolitics play out.

[1] source: occasionally work with INTERPOL as a consultant/subject matter
expert

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Other country 's police forces can choose what they want to do with this
> request_

Practically, this notice restricts Ghosn's travel to several countries. It
does nothing to him in Lebanon, and is unlikely to change much in France.

~~~
Scoundreller
I feel bad for anyone booking a private jet from Lebanon to France for the
next while.

Plenty risk of an unscheduled diplomatic lunch:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incide...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident)

~~~
tyingq
Looks like you could fly well enough outside anyone else's airspace from
Lebanon to France. The one tight spot being the gap between Malta and Tunisia.

~~~
Scoundreller
Maybe get to Reunion and then blend in on a domestic flight back to the
mainland.

------
nxoxn
I find this whole series of events to be fascinating. I'm also very interested
in what Ghosn has to say on the 8th. I have only read briefly on Japan's
prison system and from what I understand it assumes guilt.

It's hard to infer what might have happened. Leading up to his arrest in Japan
there were mentions that he had treated his co-officers in a "un-Japanese" way
and was suspected to have lead to his being targeted to be removed.

It's also interesting how this how debacle has caused Nissan to suffer. It
really seems like Nissan was about to turn around their design and car
interiors (the new Maxima, Altima, Sentra, and Versa have gotten big boosts)
and then this hits them hard.

I hope Nissan pulls through and I hope the truth about Ghosn comes out.

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
Having just read his wikipedia, it seems this goes very much deeper than
treating someone in an "un-Japanese" way.

>Nissan was paying all or some of the costs at some amount of US$18 million
for residences used by Ghosn in Rio de Janeiro, Beirut, Paris and Amsterdam,
and that Ghosn charged family vacation expenses to the company.

And the list goes on and on...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Arrest_in_Tokyo_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Arrest_in_Tokyo_and_subsequent_Nissan_investigation)

>Nissan compliance auditors began trying to track Zi-A activity in 2014 but
were stymied at first by the chain of shell companies used in Zi-A
investments.

>Nissan funds were used to purchase Ghosn's Paris apartment in 2005, and Zi-A
funds were used to purchase his $5 million beachfront Rio apartment in 2012
and his Beirut mansion, which, with renovations, cost over $15 million.

>In addition, to avoid reporting the full amount of his compensation in Nissan
financials, as required by Japanese law beginning in 2010, Ghosn had Kelly
structure complicated deferred payment plans which went unreported under an
aggressive interpretation of the disclosure rules which Nissan's outside
auditors had not signed off on, and which totaled around $80 million at the
time of his arrest eight years later.

He's just your typical CEO criminal and should be in a cell next to murderers
and drug kingpins.

Nissan stock in 2018 - $21. Today - $11.67.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Isn’t this fairly typical for Japanese corporations, that senior management
might have their home paid for by the company?

There are smells coming from both sides of this dispute.

~~~
Danieru
No, not at all. Japan has some of the most egalitarian CEO pay in developed
countries.

Ghosn exploited his position and muddied waters. He paid himself 3 CEO
salaries and yet continuously claimed to be under paid.

To claim Nissan, an entity Ghosn controlled, was somehow equally as guilty is
what-about-ism.

~~~
fennecfoxen
You seem to basically be saying that we should consider Ghosn to be guilty of
crimes because he was an outsider whose attitude wasn't sufficiently Japanese.
To me this seems to reinforce his position, rather than yours.

~~~
Danieru
I said nothing of the sort, please do not troll on hacker news.

------
tpmx
I found the comments here interesting/insightful:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/eip9cr/japanese_medi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/eip9cr/japanese_media_blasts_cowardly_ghosn_after_escape/)

~~~
tpmx
This subreddit has been following this case obsessively ever since it started.
It's a must read for anyone interested in this case.

------
hirundo
> Reuters on Thursday quoted sources close to Mr Ghosn as saying he decided to
> flee after finding out his trial had been delayed until April 2021.

If I'm on his jury for charges related to fleeing I'd tend to give him a pass
for this reason. Justice delayed is justice denied.

------
tjpnz
Good to see that this is being taken seriously, both by Turkey and Interpol.
Japan's justice system is flawed but certainly not to the degree where one
should presume that the case against him is entirely groundless.

------
PunchTornado
Why would France not extradite him if he arrives in the country? Seems really
dodgy from their part, like another Polanski case.

~~~
dgudkov
France doesn't extradite its nationals.

------
vadym909
Fascinating- I'd go watch the movie. Rags to Riches Hero becoming too
successful- targeted by Big Foreign Govt on cooked up charges escaping
persecution and going home to safety.

------
pboutros
Red notice is different from an arrest warrant.

------
mzs
FWIW Lebanon is very likely to ignore it.

------
mordae
How does he have a Japanese _and_ other passports? I thought Japan does not
recognize multiple citizenships...

------
danmg
Finally, he'll be held accountable for those JATCO transmissions.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
“Interpol issues a warrant for Carlos Ghosn's arrest”

Interpol is neither a police force nor a court of law, and does not have the
power to issue warrants.

~~~
Waterluvian
There's a great Stuff You Should Know podcast episode on Interpol. As you
point out, they're not a police force. They're an international organization
designed to help connect police forces together. They know who to call and
have translation services, etc.

A more apt description is that Interpol issued a notice stating that Japan
wants this guy.

~~~
sjs382
> A more apt description is that Interpol issued a notice stating that Japan
> wants this guy.

Current article title is "Carlos Ghosn: Interpol issues 'red notice' for
Nissan ex-boss's arrest"

~~~
blondin
ah man... i always thought that interpol was the more classy version of mi6.

------
grzm
Article title: Carlos Ghosn: Interpol issues 'red notice' for Nissan ex-boss's
arrest

~~~
grzm
Note: submission title has been updated since this comment was made:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21935806](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21935806)

------
doktrin
Good on him for escaping. The japanese judicial system is an outright farce
and they deserve to be humiliated on the world stage.

~~~
dynamite-ready
This currently looks like the view the western media is coalescing on. But
look at country's relationship with crime. It's almost seen as a model in this
regard.

How sure are you about the defendant's innocence?

~~~
doktrin
I lived in Japan for several years so I'm quite aware of the upsides of that
country, and more aware than most of its dark and downsides.

Ghosn is undoubtedly guilty of something, but he wasn't arrested (and
subsequently rearrested a half dozen times on the same charge) because of his
culpability. It was a Japan Inc. hatchet job through and through.

Bottom line is that he was facing a kangaroo court and a judicial system with
a 99% conviction rate. Everybody deserves better than that.

------
roryrjb
Anyone else getting "An error occurred during a connection to www.bbc.co.uk.
PR_END_OF_FILE_ERROR" when trying to access BBC News? This in under Firefox on
Linux but also cannot access it in Chromium.

~~~
roryrjb
Huh, it was my VPN (PIA). Does anyone know why this would happen? I tried a
few different servers.

~~~
yingw787
I get the same issue using NordVPN; not sure why.

~~~
hetspookjee
EDIT: Are you aware that you're likely using exit nodes that are acquired
through a botnet by using NordVPN? They're related with Oxygenlabs.

editted for correctness. My first statement was false. My apologies.
[https://medium.com/@derek./how-is-nordvpn-unblocking-
disney-...](https://medium.com/@derek./how-is-nordvpn-unblocking-
disney-6c51045dbc30)

Oldpost: ~~Are you aware of the possibility that you're an exit node for the
related NordVPN services?~~

~~~
yingw787
Well now I am. I got a 3 year subscription through them until 2021, I’ll
probably get PIA afterwards. I’m guessing this is a NordVPN specific thing?

------
diogenescynic
Russia uses Interpol to go after its critics like Bill Browder so I'm not sure
how to take this. As someone with no dog in the fight, from everything I read
it seemed like Japan turned against Ghosn because he made too many cuts to
Nissan which was ran more like a government owned enterprise. Japan's judicial
system also seems less than fair, especially to outsiders. I don't think
anyone on either side of this story looks clean.

------
glofish
Excellent points here! Very likely scenario.

I have yet to see any major achievement that did not "break" law in some way.
Remember laws are made for "regular" boring folks to keep them in line. They
cannot accommodate massive radical reorganizations. On the other hand the
Japanese sure look like they wanted to make a scapegoat and dish out exemplary
punishment.

~~~
seibelj
We all break innumerable laws everyday, the goal for the government is to make
everything illegal so that when you start making waves, they can put a
magnifying glass on your life to throw the book at you. You should have a lot
of money before you try and change things, so you can defend yourself through
the never ending lawsuits. Look at any major corporation’s quarterly filing
and see how many lawsuits they are mired in at once.

~~~
clucas
> the goal for the government is to make everything illegal

I've heard this line before, but never heard any evidence supporting it.

I work with government regulators in the US regularly in my day job, at the
local, state, and federal level. I have never gotten the impression that they
are trying to hoard infractions on people that they can later use to strong-
arm compliance.

Rather, modulo some personality issues, the vast majority government officials
I have ever worked with seem to be interested in achieving the best result for
the people in the jurisdiction they oversee, and they tend to take "the will
of the people" as expressed in elections and public forums very seriously - if
that means letting technical infractions slide, that's what they do.

In fact, a lot of times, the people running the government (again, in my
particular areas of experience) have expressed that they wish the laws or
regulations they are tasked with enforcing were less onerous, but they know it
won't change because the people don't want it to.

Of course, it could be different on the criminal justice side of things.

Could you cite some examples that support your accusation?

~~~
seibelj
I don’t have the time to dig up a hodge podge of article links. It’s more of a
philosophical argument.

As a recent example, I read this book “The Economist’s Hour” which is a left-
wing critique of free markets [https://www.amazon.com/Economists-Hour-
Prophets-Markets-Frac...](https://www.amazon.com/Economists-Hour-Prophets-
Markets-Fracture/dp/031651232X)

It’s thrust is that free markets are good, but need to be regulated by the
government to make them fair. I disagree with many of its conclusions, but I
did appreciate the numerous examples of regulatory overreach the author
provided to show how it can be taken too far. The sections on trucking and the
airline industry were particularly illuminating.

For example, airline companies were licensed by 1938 and no other airlines
were allowed to be created until deregulation in the Carter administration.
Airlines (and many other industries) would go hat-in-hand to regulators
begging them to solve all of their problems - prices, competition, union
issues, and on and on. As intra-state flying wasn’t regulated by the feds but
inter-state was, it became cheaper to fly within a state by over 50% than if
you crossed a state border.

