
How I Fell in Love with a Schizophrenic - techdog
http://asserttrue.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-i-fell-in-love-with-schizophrenic.html
======
steveklabnik
There is a person with schizophrenia who posts to HN, who is shadowbanned due
to the comments they leave, which are nonsensical due to their illness. Turn
'showdead' on in your profile, then hit
<http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos> and now
<http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=SparrowOS> .

They've been writing their own operating system in assembly for the last few
years: <http://www.losethos.com/> and now <http://sparrowos.com/>

For more: <http://qaa.ath.cx/LoseThos.html>

~~~
Xcelerate
Hmmph. I noticed the (dead) comments by SparrowOS a few days ago and was very
curious about them. They didn't look like any sort of spam or advertising,
because there were bouts of normal conversation amidst them.

I posted a "Ask HN" question inquiring about this user and his comments, and
my post was marked "dead" within a minute. Only thing I've ever had marked
dead on here (that I'm aware of at least).

Thank you for your explanation; I would have never guessed it was something
like schizophrenia.

~~~
Xcelerate
Alright, I did some reading on SparrowOS/LoseThos. See this page
(<http://qaa.ath.cx/LoseThos.html>) to learn a bit about him and the amazing
work he's done on his personal operating system.

In fact, it appears the nature of his posts has been discussed quite a bit on
HN over the last few years. I'm still somewhat new here though, so I imagine
as people continue to join HN questions about his postings will continue to be
asked. And you can't really blame them for being asked (how was I supposed to
know what that prose meant?). I suppose the best solution is that instead of
downvotes and ridicule (as I found in many previous topics on here), linking
to the same page I have above would eliminate a lot of contention and
confusion.

EDIT: Yikes, I'm not sure I'm coming across like I meant to. I'm not implying
being different is bad AT ALL. Sparrow, I really like your operating system
and will download it tomorrow to learn about it.

------
chernevik
God bless you.

I have worked with people like this, seen marriages to schizophrenics
(somewhat less severe that Sally), and seen families supporting children with
severe autism. Many of these are wonderful people and you are blessed to be
able to see this.

But you, yourself, are going to need help to make this work.

Doing this for 18 months is one thing but you are going to need to build
serious structural support for yourself to make the long haul. Build friend
and family relationships where you can talk about what you are going through
and which are committed to helping you through it. Make money, save as much as
you can and avoid debt like plague, you already have enough stress in your
life. Get a life insurance policy, get a will that creates a trust for Sally
and receives the proceeds of the policy. If you are of any faith consider
building up your church community.

You are essentially married to a not-normal person. You're going to have not-
normal problems. It's okay to feel sad and tired and frustrated. Have people
around you to help carry the load.

You have taken on a vocation as mental health advocate and social worker. Case
management, navigation of the health system, is actually a profession, if you
look around you'll probably find tools and practices to help you deal with the
enormous administrative overhead involved with services.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should go get yourself checked
out for psychological and emotional dysfunction. You are clearly yourself not-
normal, which is awesome, but take seriously the possibility that you've got
weaknesses of your own that need work. If you had ADHD or depression meds
would make enormous improvements in your functionality. Even if it's all good,
being in therapy, even only once a month, might not be a bad idea. Having a
professional who knows you and can spot signs of depression or stress or
anxiety could be handy.

I can't say enough how much I admire your vision and determination. My
apologies if all of this has already occurred to you. Please take care of
yourself.

------
guylhem
I'll cast a dissenting opinion.

Do you really, honestly think the author will be happy - and for long (say
more than 2 years, after the initial thrill of doing something odd and new)?

It does not looks like a sane relation to me, but more like a relation based
on needs - such as the need to "save" someone (frequent with young upperclass
women) or such as a profound emotional need to display love.

 _"I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it"_ \- this
doesn't looks like a good thing to say about a relationship - especially about
a relationship with someone hearing voices who might recommend such things.

Are normal persons (or life) so boring that one needs to import another person
problems - especially unfixable problems given the state of our technology
regarding schizophrenia?

(my cousin has a severe form and spends most of his time in various
institutions)

~~~
gaustin
I was diagnosed with schizo-affective and bipolar disorders when I was 19. I
was on disability until I was 26 (I am now almost 31), even though I worked
part time as a software developer through that entire period.

I've managed to live a pretty "normal" life so far, even with my health
issues. I have both Bachelor's and Master's degrees. I've been with my wife
for 5 years so far. I've held down jobs pretty well, with ever-increasing
levels of responsibility. I have healthy hobbies that take quite a bit of
attention but do not become overriding obsessions.

My wife and I have different struggles than most other couples. She is most
definitely not with me because it's novel, nor to "save" me or any other sort
of co-dependent nonsense.

Schizophrenia may not be fixable, but it is controllable to a degree and with
care it doesn't have to mean a life in institutions or a life without a
satisfying career.

~~~
Benferhat
How does the Schizophrenia present itself in your daily life? I'd love to hear
some examples so I can better understand your experience.

~~~
gaustin
First I have to say that my symptoms have been pretty well-controlled for
years. After my diagnosis I lost a lot of weight and became very physically
active. This seems to have helped in a miraculous way (according to several
doctors). Managing stress, sleeping well, eating well and keeping active seem
to work as good or better for me than medications.

I have mild hallucinations. Pretty regularly I have odd physical sensations,
like the skin on my legs is sloughing off or very convincing body dysmorphia.
Stuff like this is worst when it keeps me awake. Exercise or a hot shower tend
to fix this.

When I am really stressed out I have some auditory (usually more or less
ambient noise) and visual (usually motion at the corner of my vision)
hallucinations. The visual/auditory hallucinations usually only kick in when
working 50+ hours a week for extended periods and worried about personal
things. To minimize these periods, I work super hard when I am working and try
to keep complications to a minimum. I'm sure it has held my career back
somewhat not to have the same capacity for work hours as others. (Yes, 50+
hours a week is minimal for a lot of people, but for me I need that extra time
to relax and recuperate.) The last visual/auditory hallucinations I had were
pretty recent. The past couple of months required some 60ish hour weeks, I had
a good deal of disrupted sleep and my wife had some health problems.

I have strict routines. When they are broken I tend to get upset. For example,
I have a rigorous exercise routine. When it snows and it makes it harder to
get to the gym or out for a run, I get disproportionately angry. I eat things
in a very particular way, if someone disrupts this I get angry and will
probably tell them about it.

I don't like it when people repeat what I say unless I explicitly give them
permission. An example is that my wife might discuss something with me and
then discuss that with someone else, and include my view on the subject. That
upsets me.

I do not struggle much (at all?) with paranoia or catatonia.

There is some more, but I'm not super comfortable sharing in a public venue
where potential future employers are likely to see.

I recognize all of these things are not normal. Over the years I've built up a
good set of filters that keeps most people from even noticing. That's not to
say I bottle up the reaction, it's just that I've built in some mental
processes that help keep the keel even.

~~~
Benferhat
Thanks for sharing! You seem to have found a way to live in both worlds at
once quite nicely. Feel free to delete the post while you can btw, if you're
concerned about privacy issues.

~~~
gaustin
I'm glad you appreciate it.

I thought about deleting the posts. I'd really rather practice not worrying
about what people think about it. It's a part of me and if others can't accept
it, that's okay.

~~~
Benferhat
Right on, that's the only way to live.

------
kristenlee
Unfortunately this relationship has the makings of a codependent relationship.
When you combine a man who is probably insecure since he searches for dates on
craigslist and a woman with a litany of mental issues you generally have a
codependent relationship. The insecure man needs to feel "needed" and the
women needs to be "saved". Most of these relationships do not end well and
lead to long-term unhappiness for both parties.

~~~
chernevik
Well, yeah. That's certainly a risk here, isn't it?

And what shall the gentleman do? "Well I love you but it's probably a mistake
because I'm probably a mess myself so let's just walk away from it?" Even were
this situation as bad as you imagine that strikes me as a soul-killing
response to problems.

I agree this looks rough but I've seen some very bad situations that ended up
looking like something from Disney. Those situations had heroes and those
heroes went through some crazy shit. There is hope.

So. The guy is going for it. Are we satisfied to comment that it will all end
in tears? Or shall we look for some way to help it to a better end?

It isn't enough here to note the risk. You have to offer something
constructive. I don't say "not hard", perhaps this relationship is a terrible
idea and if it is so then it is no kindness to pretend otherwise.

But the OP simply isn't going to hear "dude, co-dependent, not good". If you
see trouble clearly enough to say so then you have a duty to offer some path
around it or through it.

~~~
mattchew
> And what shall the gentleman do? "Well I love you but it's probably a
> mistake because I'm probably a mess myself so let's just walk away from it?"

It is OK to size up a potential relationship and make a practical decision
about pursuing it before you actually fall in love with someone.

For most people, starting a relationship with a severe schizophrenic is a bad
idea. You're letting yourself in for a lot of suffering and very likely you'll
further injure your loved one when you eventually leave because you can't take
it any more.

I think part of growing up is recognizing that not every person you feel
attracted to is actually a good person for you to be involved with. Letting
feelings of attraction trump one's better judgement causes a awful lot of
misery in the world (usually in much less dramatic but much more common
scenarios).

I'm speaking of the general case here. As you say, sometimes seemingly
reckless relationships do work out. Kas clearly doesn't regret falling in love
with Sally and I hope that they go on to have long and reasonably happy lives
together.

~~~
chernevik
"It is OK to size up a potential relationship and make a practical decision"

Absolutely.

But that size up should consist of more than simple pattern recognition.

------
mmariani
_No doubt there's a lot of hard work ahead, for both of us. But you know what?
I never saw anything in this life that was worth a damn that didn't involve
hard work. The idea is not to shun the hard work but to embrace it. Embrace it
with both arms, squeeze it hard, and accept it, not with fateful resignation
but with the sure knowledge that if you do embrace it, good things will come,
eventually. The alternative, giving up, is unthinkable._

That, exactly that, is what life is all about. If you don't get it don't
bother living life until you get it. Simply put, because your existence won't
have any meaning to drive yourself through the hard work ahead through the
path that will change a life beside your own.

To the OP, people like you still give me hope about the mankind. All my best
feelings and thoughts will be with you and your beloved one. I'm sure you'll
get through that, and live happy. It's just a matter of time.

~~~
scribu
"If you don't get it don't bother living life until you get it."

So, WoW?

~~~
wildranter
Perhaps you should wad a book instead.

[http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-
Life/dp/11180245...](http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-
Life/dp/1118024516)

------
giardini
Be careful who you fall in love with. While it is easy to fall in love with a
person who is objectively perfection, it is also possible to fall in love with
someone who is deeply flawed. The strength of the bond is no less.

Sometimes the old method of having one's parents choose a mate appears to be
the better thing. Some cultures will investigate a potential mate's family
background several generations looking for physical or psychological problems,
thus averting potential disaster or the bearing of flawed offspring.

On the other hand statistics show that when love strikes, such marriages last
longer and result in more children than arranged marriages.

Can you choose who you fall in love with? Likely no, but you can know when
it's happening and terminate the process if you see serious warning signs. In
this story the warning signs were explicitly posted at the entrance gate.

~~~
lilsunnybee
Aren't you lucky you don't have a severe mental illness? Obviously anyone that
does should be avoided like the plague, regardless of how many good qualities
and virtues they have about them. If you're that broken, you just don't
deserve romance and love. But obviously life is still worth living, so don't
kill yourself silly!

~~~
Benferhat
> If you're that broken, you just don't deserve romance and love.

Woah, woah, woah. Surely you don't mean that anyone _deserves_ my or your or
anyone else's romance and love. These things don't mean anything unless
they're freely given.

------
cldwalker
To the OP, thanks for encouraging others to think about mental illness and
improving the situation in the US.

Side note to others - in my experience with people with schizophrenia, they
usually prefer to be referred to as just that, "a person with schizophrenia",
not "a schizophrenic". People are more than just their illness.

~~~
alanctgardner2
This is in line with the APA recommendation for referring to anyone with a
disability - psychological or physical. They aren`t characterized by their
disability; they`re a person foremost.

------
agentultra
Wonderful story, thanks for sharing.

 _It's an outrage that a disabled person is expected to live independently on
$661 a month._

Even in Canada where we have social assistance and state healthcare the
disability pensions here are abysmal. I spent my adolescent years growing up
with a single disabled mother and that's pretty much all she gets to this day;
less than minimum wage. If it wasn't for me working long hours after school
and the alimony from my estranged father we wouldn't have made it. It's
frustrating that she cannot live close to where her primary health care
providers practice and cannot even get to them on her own any more.

I wish we'd spend less money as a society on jails and war and more on
eliminating poverty and researching ways to enhance the human condition.

~~~
steveklabnik

        > When I feed the poor, they call me a saint, 
        > but when I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist.
        > 
        > - Dom Helder Camara

------
Benferhat
Finding out that someone you already care about has a mental illness is really
tough. What do you do? Run for the hills, or stand by their side? If they were
_physically_ sick, it would be a no-brainer: it could just as easily be you
who's sick with the flu or cancer or what have you, and you'd want your
friends to be there for you.

But when it comes to mental illness, it's different. Those afflicted are
somehow no longer a part of our in-group, and it becomes easier to turn our
backs on them. This post is a sort of therapy for me as well, you see, as I've
turned my back on two similarly afflicted former friends. Difficult decisions
indeed.

------
subpixel
One of the most devastating things about this disease is that the majority of
its sufferers refuse medication, based on the fear, distrust, and paranoia
brought on by their condition.

To be sure, medication is not always effective for schizophrenia, but the
disease's course without medication is a terrible one.

I'm not sure how schizophrenia is handled in other countries, but in the US
you can't force medication except in a hospital (often via the ER). And there
is a dire lack of facilities that specialize in treating and supporting people
with schizophrenia.

~~~
illuminate
"based on the fear, distrust, and paranoia brought on by their condition."

This is unfair. From my limited understanding, it's not just FUD, the
medications do "dull" their wits and have very unpleasant physical side-
effects that any person would legitimately not like. It may make them "more
normal" to some extent, but at a cost.

~~~
subpixel
> "based on the fear, distrust, and paranoia brought on by their condition."

While I know this to be true in cases like that of my own family member, your
comment about the side-effects of anti-psychotic meds is entirely valid.

~~~
illuminate
Right, it's certainly exacerbated by the condition. I mentioned the
unpleasantness of some of the drugs to help one understand why a person would
suddenly stop taking them under a "supposedly rational" state.

------
winter_blue
> It's an outrage that a disabled person is expected to live independently on
> $661 a month.

> It's the kind of thing that makes me ashamed of my own country.

I think the author is extremely ungrateful for having been born in a country
that even provides _that_.

Do you know that _software engineers_ at Microsoft India, yes Microsoft of all
places, get paid Rs. 30'000/month ($600/month) when they join in as a trainee?

People, we're talking about software developers under the monicker of
"trainee"; people who've been through 4-year college _and_ been smart enough
to get accepted to Microsoft India (in a highly competitive country) --
getting paid $600/month.

This guys has all his facts wrong when he says $600/month is bad in Gabon, and
he's being totally ungrateful when he criticizes the U.S. gov. for what
they're giving; not showing an iota of thankfulness.

Does the author know nearly 50% of children (hundreds of millions of children)
in _India_ are _malnourished_?

In India, a completely healthy person who can't find a job, will be left to
starve by both government and society. It's a ruthless, cold, heartless nation
compared to the government of the U.S. In fact in India, even food meant for
the poor is stolen by greedy politicians. It's a terrible country.

You should be thankful to be an American, instead of expecting even more from
a government that far surpasses most countries in the world in terms of what
it does.

~~~
precisioncoder
I always find it a little silly that people assume their country is amazing
without looking up the facts: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state> if
you look at welfar expenditure by GDP you'll notice that it ranks around 26
assuming I counted correctly, behind most of the western world. This is not
intended to hate on America, one of the wonderful and horrible things about
America is that there is amazing opportunity and terrifying risk to living in
the country. Most developed countries even out the risk and reward a little
more. I find this fascinating and I wonder how many factors such as
innovation, attitude, ambition, etc have related causation (rather than just
correlation).

------
batgaijin
I highly recommend looking into the work of Paris Williams:
[http://brainblogger.com/2012/08/07/schizophrenia-and-
psychos...](http://brainblogger.com/2012/08/07/schizophrenia-and-psychosis-
brain-disease-or-existential-crisis/) [http://brainblogger.com/2012/06/23/is-
schizophrenia-really-a...](http://brainblogger.com/2012/06/23/is-
schizophrenia-really-a-brain-disease/)
[http://brainblogger.com/2012/05/29/full-recovery-from-
schizo...](http://brainblogger.com/2012/05/29/full-recovery-from-
schizophrenia/)

He also has a book called "Rethinking Madness" which is amazing.

Basically, there is no medical evidence for classifying schizophrenia as a
disease. He believes that it is a state the mind creates for itself when it's
surroundings stress the person out too much. There are very high recovery
rates for schizophrenia in 3rd world countries, which he believes is due to
the lack of medication.

~~~
chimeracoder
> There are very high recovery rates for schizophrenia in 3rd world countries,
> which he believes is due to the lack of medication.

Looking at the state of schizophrenics in India, I find this hard to believe.

~~~
Alex3917
If you're looking at scizophrenics then by definition you're looking at the
ones who haven't recovered. My understanding though is that they don't just do
better because they're given less drugs, it's also because of social
differences in terms of how families interact with each other.

~~~
chimeracoder
> If you're looking at scizophrenics then by definition you're looking at the
> ones who haven't recovered.

Well, yes, it's really easy to say that a disease doesn't exist if you ignore
all the people who are suffering from it.

> they don't just do better because they're given less drugs, it's also
> because of social differences in terms of how families interact with each
> other.

What "social differences"?

Schizophrenics in India are far _more_ likely to go undiagnosed and untreated,
which only exacerbates the problems for them _and_ their families. That's a
big difference from saying that there's a high recovery rate, let alone that
it's not a disease.

~~~
Alex3917
"Schizophrenics in India are far more likely to go undiagnosed and untreated,
which only exacerbates the problems for them and their families."

Not sure if that statement is entirely reality-based:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prognosis_of_schizophrenia#Inte...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prognosis_of_schizophrenia#International)

------
rikacomet
My heart felt feelings for you my friend, your that kind of man, which I want
to be, someone who has truly lived the saying:

Beauty stays till 40-50, Intellect till 60-70, after that, only those who love
each other for the heck of it, truly stay happily ever after.

------
bguthrie
My late brother-in-law was diagnosed with schizo-affective disorder last year.
Unstable, paranoid, and off his meds, he took his own life a few months later,
still in his mid-twenties. He left a surreal suicide note. His family wants
someone to blame. It has been very hard.

Thanks for sharing your and Sally's experiences. It takes a lot of courage to
do.

------
imran
When reading your post it reminded of my own "sally". She is straightforward ,
kind hearted, truthful, caring etc. When we find such a person in our lives ,
the love that comes out is purely unconditional! We finally realise that no
matter what this person says, looks, behaves, what she does or does not, or if
the world may come to an end, no matter what we will love with uncondition
love. Its a gift (love) to the pure hearted from god himself!

------
DanBC
Thank you so much for having the courage to openly discuss your relationship
with a person with a mental illness.

Your calm words will, I hope, do a lot to explain what it's like.

> _I think most guys, on a first date, upon hearing a young lady talk
> seriously about being visited by aliens, would probably find some reason to
> cut the evening short. I merely listened. Sally "knew" the alien visitation
> wasn't real. But it felt real enough to her when it happened. So I asked her
> to tell me about it in detail. And I listened, without passing judgment. She
> ultimately laughed the whole thing off, but I knew it was an important part
> of her reality._

Talking to people who have hallucinations or who hear voices is sometimes
fascinating. Sometimes they start the conversation and you don't know that
anything is different, and because they are not lying the story sounds utterly
convincing. And then, maybe, some odd details start creeping in. Or maybe the
story is about alien visitation and it's obviously not true from the start,
even though the person telling the tale it utterly believable.

> _She didn't know that when a yellow car pulled in front of her on the road,
> it didn't mean there was danger ahead._

At their gentlest these paranoias and delusions seem similar to everyday
superstitions. I think that's what makes it harder for people to understand
just how strong the feelings are.

> _As a disabled person (who can't work a normal job, because of the severity
> of her residual symptoms), Sally gets a monthly check for $661. That's it.
> That's all. No more. Here you go: $661 a month, now go take care of
> yourself._

This is the thing I really want to talk about.

I live in the UK. We've had a variety of different disability benefits over
the years. Unfortunately those benefits have not kept current with modern
treatment; nor with modern political directions; and now we're in the
unpleasant situation of needing to cut our massive welfare bill, but not
having any suitable alternatives for people yet, and not having adequate
support for disabled people.

For example, in the 1980's people with bad back were told to not move, to lie
flat on their back on a firm mattress. Many people were signed off work for
years because of bad back. We know now that's terrible advice. If there's no
underlying illness causing the backache (and there can be serious illness
causing backache) you should carefully take pain killers, and keep moving.
Some exercise will help recovery, and some other exercise will prevent
relapse. So, now, with bad back you might need a bit of time off work to let
the pain killers start working, and then a bit of time to get the exercise
going, but then you can return to work full time.

Applying that to MH problems we see that people with mood disorders like
depression were cocooned away from stress. "Don't go back to work, because
you'll trigger another episode of illness". But many people want to work. They
do not want to live a life on benefits.

Ideally you have a programme that finds people the work they want to do, and
then gives them time-unlimited support for that work. That support would be
things like helping someone sort out transport; explaining to a boss what
reasonable adjustments (a legal concept) means; discussion about difficulties
staying in work and how to resolve those; discussion about any prejudice that
is happening etc.

Such programmes exist, but are patchy and usually _very_ busy with long wait-
lists.

And because our benefits system hasn't caught up people can get caught in
nasty situations. There's a variety of benefit schemes to help people get back
into work, but if you're working (even with a severe, enduring MH problem)
they might take the disability benefits away from you, which can then shut
down other parts of your support network; and which can be very stressful for
some people. Coping with complex benefit and tax systems is not helpful when
you've just started your first job in 12 years.

So, while we have made a lot of progress, there is still a lot of progress to
be made. I wish you and Sally all the best for the future!

~~~
mgkimsal
"I live in the UK. We've had a variety of different disability benefits over
the years. Unfortunately those benefits have not kept current with modern
treatment; nor with modern political directions; and now we're in the
unpleasant situation of needing to cut our massive welfare bill, but not
having any suitable alternatives for people yet, and not having adequate
support for disabled people."

One thing that is being tried is more direct scrutiny of people on various
disability benefits who are certainly capable of working and caring for
themselves, but got 'in' under a more permissive system when the bills weren't
as high.

I know this because of some acquaintances I know in the UK who have been on
various disability benefits for some years, and they update us on the hoops
they're having to jump through to requalify every so often. Keep this up and
weed out the people who are capable, so there's more resources to go to those
who truly need it.

~~~
DanBC
The costs of weeding out the capable are high. Not just financially; you have
to interview and assess people who might have severe and enduring mental
illness and who might be very anxious about that interview and assessment
process.

Unfortunately at the moment the assessment, while with a real doctor, is
merely a box ticking assessment. You turn up in a clean shirt and tie (because
you have a crippling OCD)? You don't get points. You turn up unshaved,
unshowered, in an unclean t-shirt? You get points. At the end someone adds up
all the points you get. If you get more than X (for physical problems) or more
than Y (for MH problems) you get the money, otherwise you're fit to work.

Very many people who are deemed fit to work go on to win their appeals.

And that's the fundamental problem.

Is a wheelchair user able to work? Obviously, yes, there are many jobs someone
in a wheelchair can do. Is a person who is totally blind able to work? Again,
yes, there are many jobs that person could do. It's the same for people with
mental illness; they might be able to work in a quiet office but not do
anything customer-facing. The might be able to do many jobs, but need a bit of
help to get those jobs.

Moving people off disability (disabled and not working; (we also have "cover
extra costs of living because you're disabled benefits which get paid if
you're in work or not)) benefits probably just moves them onto different
benefits. They might still qualify for housing benefit and tax credits; the
person caring for them might qualify for carer's benefit; etc.

Benefits and Tax in the UK is a mess. :-(

~~~
mgkimsal
I don't think the situation is as bad in the US, but the fundamental issue of
"getting paid benefits to not work" has rarely been balanced on any useful
scale with a system that says "are you working already? here are some useful
support services?" (child care, medical, extra cash, etc).

We _seem_ to only have systems that provide benefits/services to people who
don't work at all. Going back 20+ years, I worked (at a burger king!) with
someone who ended up quitting because it was 'better' for her to be on our
state's welfare program. Why? If she worked, and earned more than (IIRC
$120/week or something) then she would lose all her benefits, which added up
to far more than she could buy on the $120/week she might earn working at BK.

What struck me then that would make far more sense is to offer a sliding scale
of benefits, but phase them out if you didn't work at all. She could have
stayed working at BK at, say, $120/week, and in return received another $100
in benefits, have been far better off, but instead, the system deemed it
better to have her earning nothing, and living off the state for $150/week.

My numbers are probably off some - it's been 20 years since we had that
conversation, but it was one of the first times it struck me how backwards our
regulations and policies are. It's not gotten any better in those intervening
20 years.

~~~
Retric
It's a problem of perverse incentives. Intelligent single people without heath
issues can live vary cheaply most of the US. But, covering your basis when
things go wrong is expensive and many people will intelligently avoid that if
there is any sort of a safety net. Especially when just heath insurance costs
you more than rent or food.

On the other hand, if you want to be self sufficient both now and in
retirement you need to make around 50% more. So, where is the break even
point?

------
_feda_
Brilliant post kas. I'm impressed by your loyalty and cogency.

If the two of you ever considered having kids, there'd be a few things you'd
do well to prepare for. I am the child of a severe manic-depressive/alcoholic.
I can't begin to tell you the myriad ways this has effected my development,
but the influence runs deep and strong. Your children will grow up in an
environment of chaos, where crisis is often the default state of affairs. I'm
not saying your kids will, in the grander scheme of life, be any worse off for
the potentially unstable environment in which they grow, but it can make them
feel unusual, left out and alone in comparison to their peers. With any luck,
they'll be as well-rounded, if not moreso than anyone else, not in spite of
but because of their experiences with a close relative suffering from severe
mental illness.

I wish you the best of luck and send all my love to you both.

~~~
GBond
He had mentioned in the article she can no longer have children.

------
danso
Besides the story of unconditional love, I'm completely amazed that it
happened through Craigslist, of all the places in which you can meet someone
today

------
jere
>She didn't know that numbers don't have "assigned colors" to them.

For some people (most of them, I imagine, not schizophrenics) they do:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia>

>Our meeting was the fluke of the century. I happened to be scrounging around
on Craigslist one day looking for a furniture item. Sally happened to be on
Craigslist looking for pet supplies.

Read: one person was posting to a personals section, the other browsing. Not
much of a fluke.

~~~
MartinCron
As a small child, I used to have a strong association between numbers/letters
and colors, though that has faded to the point where I barely remember them.
The fact that 2 is yellow is strongest in my mind.

For the record, I do not suffer from schizophrenia.

~~~
mikedmiked
No no no, 3 is yellow, didn't you get the memo? This is what it was for me
when I was about 7 (no mental illness):

1- Red - Sharpness 2- Blue - Blunt/powerful 3- Yellow - Soft 4- Green 6-
Orange 7- Purple 9- Black 11-19- Shiny/Metallic colours

------
lustlosigkeit
My goodness...I am in a similar situation to the lady mentioned in this
article, yet arguably more functional, and I haven't even come close to
meeting someone who was this tolerant and accepting. Is this guy just very
special? I can't figure it out.

I alternate between brutal honesty on my condition (the approach of this
woman) and hiding it (what I'm going through now), and I'm not sure if it's
better or worse either way.

~~~
lustlosigkeit
Oh geez, I think I figured it out - I hadn't read the whole article fully.

I'm pretty aware of people and tend to stay away from "savior" types who think
they can come in on a white horse and save the day. As well intentioned as
they might be, the behavior often seems unhealthy. I don't know enough about
this particular situation but the phrase "I'll throw myself in front of a bus
for her if she wants it" seems like a typical thing one of them would say.

I often marvel at the dysfunction of seemingly "normal" people going around
without any sort of diagnosis, compared to my actual behavior, which is always
at least somewhat stigmatized. I hope that for their sake the relationship
works out for them, but for my own peace of mind, I push those people away...

------
gcmartinelli
I recommend to all reading the novella by Machado de Assis called "O
alienista" (The Psychiatrist). I couldn't find an english version online, but
here is a review: [http://quarterlyconversation.com/on-the-alienist-by-
machado-...](http://quarterlyconversation.com/on-the-alienist-by-machado-de-
assis)

------
jre
This is an inspiring story to start the new year with. Thank you.

------
shail
Now this is the god of love stories. Thanks for sharing your life with us.

------
yanivfr
Great story...

------
michaelochurch
Good luck, OP. Major props for seeing someone with a horrible disease (that
terrifies most people, hence the stigma) as a human.

You have a hard road ahead of you. Some advice, from someone with plenty of
experience with bipolar disorder (family, romantic relationships, business
partners):

* Study Eastern approaches to mental health and spirituality. Buddhism will accept you regardless of whether you have any metaphysical beliefs whatsoever. "You may not believe in God, but God believes in you." (Actually, Buddhism is theologically agnostic and compatible with theism or atheism, but that's an aside.) Don't expect miracles, because it takes decades to get good at this and mentally ill people can't "meditate out of" their illnesses, and but the insights into the mind from meditation and yoga can help both of you.

* You both should avoid all recreational drugs, including alcohol and tobacco. Both of you. Normal people can use drugs like psilocybin, marijuana and LSD with low levels of risk. You can't. Even if you're neurologically normal, your circumstances are abnormal and these drugs are unpredictable even in the best circumstances.

* You have hard travels ahead of you. It's probably good, even if your mental health is totally normal, for you to see a therapist.

* Exercise. It won't always clear everything away, but it will make the situation better.

~~~
lilsunnybee
It's not a disease it's a condition. Sorry just a lot of people would find
that word offensive.

------
ctdonath
$661/mo

Just throwing money at someone with a tenuous grasp on reality is not
kindness. More won't help.

~~~
DanBC
I ask, gently and politely, what the alternative is? I'm genuinely interested
in any ideas and I'm not asking to be confrontational.

I'm mostly asking about people who don't pose a danger to others, but who have
several episodes a year where they might require a short in-patient stay in
hospital.

~~~
ars
A type of assisted living maybe?

Someplace where food, shelter and medical care are provided, but not locked or
anything - people are free to come and go (including to a job) as they please.

Individual rooms with privacy of course.

