
Ask HN: My manager suggested me to start taking Ritalin - dr_robert
I&#x27;m a Software Engineer, and I used to have a manager who in a 1:1 suggested me to start taking Ritalin to improve my focus. What are your thoughts about that? It&#x27;s legal to suggest that kind of medical advice in a work environment? I don&#x27;t feel like my focus is a problem.
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russellbeattie
You can assume the worst and think your manager just wants you to work harder
and longer while hopped up on amphetemines, or you can take it as not-
particulary friendly advice to get yourself diagnosed for attention issues.

The best part of being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and starting medication
was my ability to sit quietly with my then 3 year old son and play blocks for
longer than 10 minute stretches. Previously that was impossible. My diagnosis
was a life-changing discovery that improved how I lived in a variety of
contexts, both at home and at work.

Maybe your manager sees what he thinks your inability to focus as a real
issue, and is, in a clumsy, intrusive way, suggesting you take it seriously.
Or he's just an asshole and is trying to get more work out of you. That's for
you to figure out.

~~~
anonsivalley652
Seems like a boundary issue to have a boss pushing meds. In fact, it could be
illegal (IANAL).

Meds can help if there's a real issue, but there's almost always side-effects.
Growing up, my parents were anti-medication and anti-psychology. It turns out
I had untreated depression, Asperger's and ADD-I only diagnosed as an adult.
Atomoxetine really helps me because I can't tolerate amphetamine stimulants or
caffeine. I tried Adderal, Ritalin and Provigil, and they all made my anxiety
and blood pressure much worse.

Also, I'm currently cross-titrating to my 14th anti-depressant. (The last one,
mirtazapine, worked for 9 years at the expense of 25% weight gain.) Ketamine,
LSD and invasive/ECT treatments are just about my last choices if this new one
doesn't work. And the 12th one I tried gave me terrible vertical and
horizontal nystagmus and whole-body, sporadic myoclonus. (Beware of
extrapyramidal-causing and anticholinergic medications!)

------
walrus01
Find a way to get it in writing, and start looking for a new job, because your
days there are numbered if your manager is giving unsolicited medical advice.

~~~
LZ_Khan
Was it unsolicited? If the poster confided to his boss that he has focus
issues, his boss might have just been trying to offer a solution (albeit a bad
one). I don't see what's unethical about this.

~~~
paloaltokid
It’s still not appropriate for a manager who is not acting in a medical
capacity to make that kind of recommendation.

It’s a huge huge leap to go from “I feel like your focus needs improvement” to
“go get an amphetamine prescription because I feel you are not working hard
enough.”

~~~
bllguo
I agree that it's inappropriate, but it seems like an equally huge leap to go
from that to "your days are numbered" when we don't have any other context.

Of course our reactions are heavily biased towards our personal experiences.
If my manager said something like that to me I'd laugh it off as a bad joke or
a poorly executed gesture with good intentions.

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LinuxBender
Disclaimer: Neither a doctor nor a lawyer nor HR. In my opinion, it is
probably not appropriate for the manager to suggest a drug unless you asked
their opinion. For sure, they could not prescribe it to you or require you to
take it.

You might ask them why they feel you lack focus. If they do not have a good
answer, then perhaps you could request a skip level 1:1 with their manager, or
if you feel that is a no-win, you could speak with HR, or decide to let it go.
You know your work environment better than any of us and would have to weigh
the pros and cons. I agree with others that say this doesn't always end well.

~~~
dr_robert
I know my self than my manager, my lack of focus, was because the work i was
doing, super boring. My manager took all the "cool" decisions and make us
struggle with that. So no motivation at all. But there is always a pill to
solve our problems lol

~~~
LinuxBender
It sounds like you made the right decision to find something better.

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askGor
Why there are only bio-conservative comments are populating this question?

* You may not be aware that you have a focus problem. Are there any (personal) logs of your working hours? Are you getting things done within the deadline?

Your manager's attitude is quite reasonable. If you need some imporved focus,
nothing wrong to take Ritalin.

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artemisyna
Note it down, bring it up to HR/your manager's manager.

Best case scenario, your manager is well-intentioned but is misinformed (or
under-informed) about what is/isn't okay to say. Mild kerfuffle, not a big
deal.

Worst case scenario, your manager is outright crap and the personnel around
them is equally bad. (Aka the "you should really think about moving companies
now" scenario.)

In either case, escalating is the way to resolve things.

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paloaltokid
Totally inappropriate for a manager to make that kind of suggestion. Most
likely not legal either.

Definitely get it in writing and then take it to HR. Alternatively, if you
feel like this would fall on deaf ears, start looking for new employment.

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rhombocombus
In a manager/report relationship I think it is inappropriate, but I had a
colleague suggest I begin taking ADHD medication in grad school and it changed
my life. Without knowing your relationship with your manager I can't speak to
the appropriateness other than to say you shouldn't bring that up, but I have
had very close relationships with some of my managers where I might have
approached that level of honesty/vulnerability to make them feel like that was
appropriate.

All of that aside, your manager is not a physician and you are free to ignore
anything they say regarding your health. I would still reflect on why they
might have said that and whether you are struggling in your role.

------
FillardMillmore
I definitely don't think this is legal (disclaimer though: I am not a lawyer),
unless your manager is also a MD, but even then, I don't think it's legal
unless he's acting in that capacity.

If, as you note, you are no longer working there, I wouldn't worry yourself
too much about it unless you think that you do have focus issues. If that's
the case, I would try correcting the problem in non-medical ways first.
There's a number of things you can try - keep a tidy workspace, listen to
soothing music if possible, try meditation, keep a low sugar diet, etc. If you
feel that you've expended your options, consult your doctor.

~~~
ryandvm
Get serious. It may not be tactful or appropriate, but I'd be very surprised
if suggesting to a subordinate that they go get checked out for ADHD was
illegal.

Would it be illegal if his manager told him to go get a Tamiflu prescription
as well?

~~~
johnisgood
Yeah, or would it be illegal to tell him to go to a doctor to get vision
checked and corrected? People give medical advice to each other all the time.
It is up to you whether or not you follow through, but even then, to get
prescription you do need to visit a doctor. Why would telling people to visit
a doctor to get X and Y prescribed illegal? Is it actually illegal? If he were
to tell him to obtain Ritalin illegally, then I can see how that would be
illegal, but from what I gathered he did not do that.

I am not a doctor. I told a stranger (who is now my friend) to visit a
psychiatrist because I suspected he has ADHD. His psychiatrist diagnosed him
with that, and he got a prescription for a stimulant. His life has changed
tremendously for the better. It turned his life around. I gave him other
medical advice (because I learnt a lot of medicine) about a variety of things
that has improved his quality of life. I have no regrets.

------
convolvatron
wouldn't be the first employer to suggest that the employee might be more
valuable if they started doing speed

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JohnFen
I think that such a suggestion is huge Red Flag, and would either begin
looking to be transferred internally so I had a different manager, or begin
looking for work in another company altogether.

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Bheliar
Absolutely not okay. ADHD medication should only be taken if one has ADHD.
Which can only be determined by a medical specialist. And even if you do have
ADHD, you don't have to take meds. ADHD meds are often misused as drugs, so
suggesting this is basically asking you to take drugs. Not okay.

If a manager has a hunch that one of their employees has an unknown medical
condition they might tell them about it. If their relationship is good enough.

If, on the other hand, they notice a performance issue, they can talk about
that and potential ways to fix this. Which would include a quiter workplace,
more interesting tasks or an inquiry of underlying issues.

I have ADHD and would have been happy if I had been diagnosed earlier. But I
became a Machine Learning engineer without diagnosis. And while meds are nice,
they surely were not the end of my problems. I am glad you don't work there
anymore, because the real problem there was this manager.

------
bks
In life, we all have blind spots. Things that are obvious to others with more
experience but may be invisible to ourselves.

But it may have been a helpful suggestion from the manager based on
observation or personal experience that the OP might have some attention
deficit issues that may or may not be improved with medication.

Hanlon's razor may apply here also.

~~~
paloaltokid
It doesn’t matter if the manager was intending to be helpful. You don’t
suggest to an employee that they start taking drugs, full stop. The furthest
you can go is to suggest medical diagnosis.

------
nonmedic
No. This is illegal. He's not a medical professional and should not be giving
you advice on what medication to take.

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duxup
It's inappropriate, but it's hard to know his intent.

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noonespecial
"Oh wow, I didn't know you were a Medical Doctor as well! Where'd you go to
school?"

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kirstenbirgit
What a weird thing to do of your manager. How did he suggest this? Was he just
like "I think you need to take Ritalin"? Did he suggest going to a
psychiatrist, or did he want to sell some to you?

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whateveracct
Managers and companies existence is fueled by extracting as much energy out of
employees as possible. They just usually aren't so brazen about that.

Idk about the legality but it's hugely unprofessional.

------
hatenberg
Fireable offense in some environments. Big tech company or startup?

~~~
dr_robert
Big company at that time. 14k employees when i left.

~~~
itronitron
Yeah, any manager making a comment like that puts the company in legal peril
for a number of reasons, the main one being that if they thought you needed
some form of medical treatment and didn't follow through on making that happen
then the company can be held liable.

------
steven_noble
Clearly unethical. Take written notes. Join your union.

But a few side points:

\- ADHD is an actual condition that can cause lack of focus and/or hyperfocus

\- there are plenty of other reasons why a person can exhibit lack of focus
and/or hyperfocus

\- in people with ADHD, stimulants are often very effective, but dosage and
side-effects need careful medical management

\- in people without ADHD, stimulants often make them _feel_ like they are
more focused that ever before, but blind studies have shown that their actual
focus is not truly affected

~~~
runawaybottle
Can you link anything that backs up your last bullet point?

~~~
steven_noble
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/#__sec7...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/#__sec7title)

~~~
eindiran
I don't see anything that backs up the claim you made in that paper. The
closest thing I see:

"Stimulant drugs do improve the ability (even without ADHD) to focus and pay
attention. One function, which is reliably improved by stimulant medications,
is sustained attention, or vigilance. Stimulants improve sustained, focused
attention, but “selective attention” and “distractibility” may be worsened,
possibly because of a drug induced increase in impulsivity."

And that seems to contradict your point.

~~~
steven_noble
fair enough -- i was basing it on my memory of a documentary I saw once -- i
looked up the documentary but could not find a list of the studies it cited,
so I Googled for studies on the question

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helij
This reminds me of when owners of a company told me to just give paracetamol
to my 1yr old and leave at the nursery and come to work.

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jdhendrickson
I had a similar situation with a punch bowl of no-doze at a data center
startup.

No job is worth your health, I think glass door is a good outlet for this type
of information.

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is_true
Without the exact phrasing I don't think anyone can give any advice.

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sys_64738
Send an email asking them which drug they recommend. Then go see a lawyer with
the printout.

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atian
Based on that this AskHN exists, there may be implications.

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runawaybottle
That stuff is highly addictive. Honest to god, if he suggested it, most likely
he takes it too. Get out of there, his expectations are based around people
abusing speed, which means he basically expects some unhealthy output.

Remember kids, all drugs work, until they don’t. You can always take more I
guess.

~~~
rhombocombus
There are millions of people who take those medications as prescribed without
addiction or dependence. If you are going off label then you have a problem,
but in many cases these medications can make the difference between a
successful life and a disastrous one.

~~~
runawaybottle
Of course. So there’s the nice way to talk about this (which is how you are
talking about it), and then there’s the real way to talk about it - you know
like how a manager in our industry casually suggest you take up a schedule 2
drug. This stuff is abused pretty rampantly.

------
steve_taylor
Noise cancelling headphones playing Ambient Sleeping Pill helps me focus.

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smoyer
Was (s)he a body hacker? I've seen people also experiment with nootropics in
an aim to improve their output. The fact that it was a boss in a 1:1 is a bit
weird but ... what if it had simply been a coworker telling you what worked
for them?

~~~
RNase
Methylphenidate is not a nootropic. If you are wondering if amphetamines and
their friends improve your work output, the answer is yes, yes they do. They
won't make you smarter though.

~~~
eindiran
I mean, by that definition of nootropic there are no nootropics lol. From
Wikipedia:

"Nootropics are drugs, supplements, and other substances that may improve
cognitive function, particularly executive functions, memory, creativity, or
motivation, in healthy individuals."

So CNS stimulants like methylphenidate (which definitely increase motivation
in healthy individuals) are nootropics by that definition.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic)

~~~
runawaybottle
It’s a drug on the more potent end of the spectrum, it isn’t benign. Take a
few, you won’t even need to wonder ‘I wonder if this is a nootropic’.

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evo_9
Better off taking Alpha GPC nootropic supplement. It’s cheap and more
effective, helped me recover From a concussion recently and I’ve kept taking
it. Stuff is amazing.

Also - find a new job your manager is terrible. It’s probably illegal and/or
against company policy but you’d have to go around/above him to report this
and honestly that never works out well.

