
People who are less willing to apologize also tend to be less self-compassionate - farnsworthy
https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/paqjdk/why-people-never-apologize
======
davesque
Kinda related: it's occurred to that I've only ever witnessed _anyone_ in my
life genuinely apologize for something a handful of times. Weird to think
about. People really seem to struggle with this.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
A lot of things really don't warrant an actual apology (bumping into someone,
forgetting something) - there isn't a lot you could have done to prevent it.
Or you are forced to apologized, even though you weren't actually regretful.
Or we are forced to apologize for things we aren't actually sorry for: words
that were said instead of apologizing for your contribution to the situation
that led up to the words or for the situation the words caused.

If polite society doesn't allow folks to express how we actually feel and
expects a lot of empty apologies for politeness sake, the genuine apologies
are going to be much more rare. It isn't so much a struggle with apologies as
a struggle with the expectations of others and the society we live in.

To be fair, this is mostly about American culture as I'm more familiar with
it. They don't seem as necessary here in Norway for such little offenses
(bumping into someone on the bus is a wordless thing, for example).

~~~
racer-v
One of the first phrases I try to learn when visiting a foreign country is how
to apologize for bumping somone, or ask someone to move aside. "Excuse me" in
English, "entschuldigen" in German, "jièguāng" in Mandarin. It's so much less
awkward being when you can communicate with words. Is there a phrase you would
use for this in Norwegian, or would you just clear your throat and tap your
foot?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Most of the time, you'd just make eye contact if that. granted, i'm talking
about small bumps and things that Americans apologize for daily, but are a
normal part of life. Things change a little if you actually get someone to
lose balance or fall down. "unnskyld meg" \- a form of "excuse me" \- same
thing someone says if they want me to move. More importantly, make sure the
other person is OK. Help them pick up stuff if dropped. Mostly, it just more
seems like that sort of thing isn't as big of a deal here because it is part
of life, especially on crowded buses.

Don't get me wrong, I find society really nice on the whole. If I fall down on
the ice, folks make sure to ask if I'm OK. People help children (and children
stop random folks to talk... they are on public buses at school age by
themselves). Most people have been really patient with the language barrier -
more so than I saw in the US - and people are happy I try instead of being
upset that I have an accent. And granted, I was taught some of this from my
Norwegian spouse and through language/civics classes required for my
immigration.

I honestly hear apologies and the like more from other immigrants, and
Americans seem overly polite and fake happy/apologetic in comparison.

------
racer-v
It's also crucial to consider the motivations of the person you're apologizing
to. If that person is interested in moving forward and (re)building the
relationship, do it. But if the "offended" party is still resentful, they may
use your apology as an "admission of guilt" and try to twist your words
against you.

Moral: don't apologize to a truly toxic person - instead remove them from your
life immediately.

~~~
gt_
What do you mean by “toxic”?

~~~
racer-v
By "toxic" I mean someone who essentially sees social situations as a way to
play out their inner sadistic tendencies - for example by passive-aggressively
seeking conflicts so they can play the victim, or constantly looking for
"enemies" and trying to ruin their reputations. A person who has unresolved
inner conflict or trauma which they try to rectify (or distract themselves
from) by projecting issues onto others.

------
maxxxxx
Honest apologies are good but I see a lot of people that apologize all the
time but don't change their behavior. They probably think it's OK as long as
they apologize.

~~~
DoreenMichele
This is standard behavior for abusive people. It is so standard that it makes
you wonder if it is Chapter One of some guidebook on _How to be an Abusive
Asshole_.

It is another reason I am not fond of apologies. If all you do is apologize
and you don't change and don't try to make things right, you can get the fuck
out of my life.

~~~
gt_
While that is annoying, I think we should clarify that it is not abuse. I
hesitate to even consider it manipulation. Maybe I am missing something. Could
you give an example?

It sounds dishonorable at most, but not offensive. To be honest, my first
thought is that an insinuation of this being abuse is more qualified
manipulation than the behavior you’re critiquing.

You can always just let the person out of your life. It sounds likely they are
merely not meeting your standards because humans are irrational, weird,
biological and well, human.

~~~
DoreenMichele
You seem to be misreading my point.

People who are abusive very often apologize for it. For example, men who beat
their wives routinely apologize afterwards and even swear they will stop. But
they don't. They escalate. The beatings get worse.

Habitual empty apologies don't constitute abuse per se. There are people with,
for example, low self esteem who just apologize for everything all the time.
This is annoying, but not abusive.

But abusive people who actually do terrible things also apologize a lot.
However, they don't change and they don't make amends.

These are not people I want in my life.

------
stevenjohns
I keep getting redirected to
[https://www.vice.com/en_au](https://www.vice.com/en_au) whenever I click on
this link.

Looking on the en/AU variation of the site, I can't seem to find the article.

Does Vice seem to think Australians shouldn't have access to this article? Or
is geofencing dumb, outdated and broken? I'm leaning towards the latter.

~~~
tomhoward
The AU version is here:

[https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/wj48nz/people-who-
never-a...](https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/wj48nz/people-who-never-
apologize-probably-arent-nice-to-themselves-either)

------
macromaniac
Apologies are not always needed. When you really mess up its usually pretty
obvious and saying youre sorry doesnt do all that much. "Sorry I introduced a
bug that causes the system to crash once a week" doesn't really help anyone,
of course you're going to be sorry. I heard this from someone and it stuck
with me: "Don't apologize, fix it."

Edit: I made a mistake while writing this, I am trying to say be objective
about your mistakes but many people took that to mean don't admit your
mistakes. I should have been more specific with my terminology.

~~~
gumby
Acknowledging that you know you caused the problem has important social
function: it provides sympathy to others who may be annoyed at you ("they are
annoyed at themselves too, so I shouldn't be so hard on them") and signals
that you are aware of your actions so are less likely to screw up in future.

But yes, you should clean up your messes.

~~~
bthornbury
Acknowledgement of your shortcomings is not the same as an apology.

In my experience apologies are not making things better, but saying yeah
that’s my fault and moving forward does.

~~~
brazzledazzle
They’re the same as far as I’m concerned. Whether you say “I’m sorry” or
“oops. my bad” doesn’t matter as long as you acknowledge that you did
something that may have fucked up someone’s morning/day/weekend.

~~~
macromaniac
Okay then it's just semantics. I admit mistakes but I try to be objective
about it. If that's considered an apology then I do apologize.

------
Red_Tarsius
Off topic question. A few years ago I started a heated, short-lived debate on
an online forum. Soon after, however, I realized my arguments were flawed. Is
it creepy to send an apology to a few users after such a long time? I don't
know them in real life, but I regret my rushed judgment to this day. I would
like my online behaviour to be consistent with my real-life behaviour
regardless of circumstances.

~~~
tedsanders
I wouldn't find it creepy at all, though obviously depends on the exact
context. I admire people who change their minds and who follow up to tie off
loose threads. Others might feel differently, but I'd encourage you to reach
out if you're considering it. Generally I think reaching out to others is
worthwhile. And just doing it usually takes less time than pondering whether
you should do it or not.

------
mmirate
Putting aside for discussion's sake the question of the very existence of any
merits at all of compassion... why particularly should I ever be _self_
-compassionate?

A person cannot control other people's actions the way they can control their
own; and that's one of the few reasons I can't berate other people for their
mistakes to the extent that I can berate myself for my own. Indeed, for that
same reason, when I make mistakes, my response to myself is little more than
the vilest of fury: the ability to act correctly (including the ability to
learn it) was within my own nervous system, yet I clearly neglected to use it.

(For example: previously this comment contained several typographical errors.
Rereading the comment repeatedly, revealed each typo ... but there's no excuse
for any of them to have even escaped the keyboard.)

~~~
Emphere
I don't agree with this. You don't have as much control over yourself as you
think you do. Your genes and your environment play a huge role on how you act
and behave. Of course I am not saying that you shouldn't take responsibility
for your actions--you should. You should see where you went wrong and try your
best so that it doesn't happen again. If you observe your emotions closely,
you might find that berating yourself is often a way to 'feel good' (oh look
how self aware I am, how virtuous I am for recognizing my mistakes) without
actually accomplishing anything. And research backs this up. People who berate
themselves over mistakes are less likely to implement behavioural changes.

It is inevitable that you'll make mistakes. You'll make mistakes everyday. So
it is best to accept this and get over yourself--to focus on improving
yourself. I like to think of it as treating yourself as you would your best
friend. If your best friend makes a mistake you wouldn't berate him, nor would
you encourage him to keep making the same mistakes. You would instead, with
compassion and respect try to help him out.

Disclaimer: this post might sound kind of righteous and condescending. But
that's not my intention. This is based on my experience with my own self. YMMV

~~~
mmirate
> best friend

Far from it! After the kinds of procrastination that I've done previously in
undergraduate, I think of myself as my _worst enemy_.

(Or at best, sometimes, as a worst-enemy who has been defeated and is paying
reparations a la Versailles.)

------
gt_
I am an advocate of apologies and have to actively practice not apologizing
too much. I really believe in the value that _can_ come of them, but that
value is also dependent on how they are responded to. There is no hard rule,
of course. It’s delicate. But, I see apologies punished and taken advantage of
most of the time they are given, especially in “professional” environments.
When someone apologizes, the response should probably be difficult. If it’s
easy, it may be worth thinking about it a little longer.

Thankfully, I think I have learned what best works for me: don’t befriend or
work with others who do not share my values. It’s almost impossible but it
gets much easier with time.

------
dredmorbius
Interesting to note that the original meaning of "apology" was far closer to
"excuse" or "defence" than the present "acknowledgement" or "atonement".

[https://www.etymonline.com/word/apology](https://www.etymonline.com/word/apology)

[http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=apo...](http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=apology)

------
zbentley
Note that the inverse is _not_ true.

------
pwython
I'm sorry, but, I wish studies like these would share at least the sample size
without having to pay for it, considering every hack publication will report
on it as "fact." Not that I disagree with the study, I'm just curious how they
did the test.

~~~
umanwizard
The sample size isn't by itself enough to conclude much.

~~~
ssambros
I agree that large enough sample size is not a sufficient condition to reach a
correct conclusion, however I will argue that it's a required one.

------
TipVFL
To all the people saying apologies are worthless, you probably feel that way
because you get too many worthless apologies.

Personally, I don't count it as an apology unless they acknowledge how they've
hurt you, expressed remorse, and made a commitment to change. I've known many
people who can only manage the first two (at best), and it drives me insane.

------
jimjimjim
this seems to vary a lot between countries.

Also, it's interesting looking at web sites that have comment sections with
voting. Often admitting a mistake will attract more negative votes than
stupidly insisting that a bad comment is ok. (which i think is a terrible
commentary on the tech industry or the blood thirstiness of web site
comments).

------
trengrj
In other news people who are less willing to smile also tend to be less
friendly.

~~~
gumby
That's not really parallel to what the article says.

------
willart4food
You mean like narcissists?

------
User23
This article is clickbait garbage.

------
jvreagan
NSFW due to language... but obligatory:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwfuUyTMpVY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwfuUyTMpVY)

------
jckwtt
Apologizing is a selfish act, so this make sense on the title alone.

~~~
drb91
Apologizing is only selfish until you want one yourself. Then they can be
extremely meaningful.

The culture of over-apologizing should not be confused with the ability to
admit serious mistakes and acknowledge their impact--this is simply accepting
responsibility in a social context.

This doesn't add much to the conversation unless you care to explain how a
social interaction can be reduced to a character flaw in all cases.

------
throwaway0255
Honestly I don’t understand the purpose of an apology. They also seem
inherently dishonest (you’re sorry, and you did it? that makes no sense).

I’ve also never felt better after being apologized to, and I’ve never had an
apology improve my situation or anybody else’s, at any point in my life, ever.

I have however had it be construed as an admission of guilt that exacerbates
things. So at least apologies have that going for them!

Apologies are childish. I think they’re something adults force on children
because they want to believe their children are remorseful and still “good.”

Anyone have a good pro-apology argument? I can’t think of one.

~~~
ggg9990
Is this comment a satire?

~~~
mark_edward
No, you're on HN

