

How a 3 week business trip to the US got reduced to 3 hours - blumentopf
http://www.noop.nl/2011/06/american-learning-experience.html

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patio11
This was somewhat surprising to me, but appears that he was accurately quoted
the law. If you go through the flowchart on the State Department's website for
the Visa Waiver Program, which would be my #1 suggestion for someone coming
from the Netherlands,

 _For the purpose of the Visa Waiver Program, "business" generally refers to
business activities other than the performance of skilled or unskilled labor.
Examples of activities that are allowed include: engaging in international
commercial transactions, which do not involve gainful employment in the United
States (such as a merchant who takes orders in the U.S. for goods manufactured
abroad, or who travels to the U.S. to purchase American-made goods for export
from the U.S.); negotiating contracts; consulting with business associates;
and participating in scientific, educational, professional or business
conventions, conferences, or seminars.

The performance of any skilled or unskilled labor - even if it is unpaid - is
most always prohibited. This includes performing work in the U.S. as a trainer
or consultant. Activities allowed on the VWP parallel those activities allowed
with a standard "B1" category business visa. Please see our B visa information
page for more details._

Working visas are, as stated, not exactly trivial to get. (And if you're
already at the airport it is too late.)

~~~
WildUtah
I continue to be astonished that anyone still comes to the USA without either
a specific rule allowing his activity (e.g. tourism, negotiating contracts) or
a consultation with a US immigration lawyer.

Aren't there enough horror stories? Isn't the craziness well known abroad?

In most of the world people who want to be tourists in the USA dread the
extensive and humiliating application interview, questionnaire, and
documentation process just to get a visa. The same is required to change
planes at a US airport.

The process is byzantine and irrational. Read all the available documents and
hire a lawyer if anything seems uncertain.

The border authorities routinely retain old documents, especially those
submitted in error, and use them in a Kafkaesque process to deny all future
permissions. Every thing you say or send to the government can be
reinterpreted and used against you forever. It would be best to consult a
lawyer every time you interact with CBP, though that would be expensive.

~~~
akkartik
Is this any different from other countries? I'm just surprised you expect to
go to _any_ first-world country and work without a permit. For a very broad
definition of work. London requires a visa for even changing planes. The
paperwork for having your parents visit is even more onerous, I'm told. If you
have a small child you're required to hire a nanny before they'll let your
parents visit. So yeah all immigration authorities are moronic.

OP said he's travelled all over the EU. Well, I assume he has an EU passport?

~~~
prpon
I hold an Indian passport and I recently got thrown out of a plane to Spain
via Heathrow right before it took off. They said, I didn't have a transit
visa. I was changing planes in the same terminal and the total time I was to
spend in Heathrow was 2 hours.

I have a Schengen visa. No, that doesn't work for London. I begged and pleaded
for hours at the gate. Nothing. The worst part is, I did the same route for
years with no problem. Apparently rules changed recently.

Trust me, It really is awful being that person who gets discriminated based on
where you are born.

~~~
evangineer
The UK isn't part of Schengen, that's a continental Europe thing rather than
covering all EU members:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area>

~~~
Lucadg
Bangkok, Buenos Aires or Sydney are not Schengen neither but they don't
require a visa for airport transit. That's just politicians covering their
assess in case some terrorist blows up a plane on transit flight.

------
bhickey
Something similar happened to a co-worker of mine.

The company maintains offices in New York and Boston, with significant
expansion at the Boston office. The powers that be decided it would be a good
idea to have another experienced dev in Boston to help get the newer guys up
to speed. They consulted with immigration attorneys and made sure all their
ducks were in a row for a three month rotation through the US.

My unfortunate co-worker showed up at the border and presented his UK
passport, with a place of birth located somewhere in central Africa. The
border guard decided that he planned to overstay his visa and denied him
entry. He was then given the choice of arrest or deportation.

This is really not a good way to endear the US to foreign business interests.

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baudehlo
I learned years ago doing conference talks that even if you're giving a
tutorial, when asked at the border what you are doing there you simply say:
"Attending a conference". NEVER give more details (except what the conference
is about, which they will ask).

------
ghshephard
I can report that some elements of the US Immigration/Visa system have gotten
much smoother in the last 15 years. In particular, coming from Canada to work
at Netscape in 1996, I was turned back the first time, and the third time,
because the inspector did not like my paperwork (The first time, kind of made
sense - it wasn't particularly well prepared. The third time, though, had been
prepared by a law firm. The inspector indicated that my Diploma wasn't clearly
from a University Level organization. They were the only inspector in 12 years
to ever make that comment and refuse entry on that basis)

For a while, in 2000-2002, they were kind of snarky when they had seen that
I'd come in multiple times on a "Temporary Visa", though perhaps that was just
to remind me that my trip to the US was, indeed, temporary. Eventually, after
5 or 6 minutes of grilling, the would grant me a multiple-entry TN Visa.

Since 2008/2009, though, the process has been streamlined to a single letter
with a single diploma, (literally) five-seven minutes waiting in their waiting
area at the airport, and one minute at the counter, $50 Payment, and I'm good
for another 3 years. If I want to, I can even apply by mail.

So - properly accredited Canadians (2 Year Diploma+, letter from an employer
properly formatted) who want to work in the United States as Computer Systems
Analysts, have a system that's as streamlined as you can get it, without
having completely open borders.

~~~
joelhaasnoot
I did a 6 month internship in the US (with a Visa) and arrived at Philadelphia
airport without the letter from my internship place detailing what I was going
to do: the US Embassy in The Netherlands had it, I only had one copy of said
letter.

After explaining my story, what I was going to do where, how long I was to
stay, which loophole I exploited (volunteers for religious non-profits get a
B1 visa), who was going to pay (my parents) and what their occupations were,
and that the non-profit was not paying me in any way I was free to go. Easy if
you ask me: that could've been quite a struggle to get myself out of that one.

------
furyg3
I'm bit shocked that the Dutch American Friendship Treaty
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT_(treaty)>) doesn't apply in reverse...

The treaty allows Americans like myself to start a business in Holland easily
and get around the notoriously-bureaucratic Dutch immigration department.

I always assumed it worked the other way around, but apparently the
'friendship' is unidirectional...

~~~
smutticus
This guy just showed up at the border without doing his research first. Try
doing the same in the NL and you will also have problems. You can't legally
work in the NL without a Tewerkstellingsvergunning if you are not from the
EEA. The Dutch American Friendship Treaty simply allows you to easily acquire
a TWK without too much hassle.

FWIW the Dutch American Friendship Treaty is awesome. I've met numerous people
from piercers to coders who use it to live and work in the NL.

------
jperras
As someone who travels to the United States from Canada on a very regular
basis, this does not surprise me at all. The first mistake he made was to say
that he was "self-employed". That one little phrase, from my experience, sets
off a very large red flag and almost always ends with being secondary'ed and
very likely a complete entry denial.

Generally, every question that the CBP agent will ask revolves around money:
who pays your salary, in what currency, are you attempting to get in to the
USA to find a job, will someone be giving you money for whatever reason (e.g.
honorarium for giving a talk at a conference), etc. Additionally, trying to
explain the concept of telecommuting to an agent is usually a lost cause.

Canadians do have a slightly easier time getting in & out of the United
States, but only marginally.

------
axefrog
Any economics experts around? What would hypothetically happen if all
countries lifted all immigration laws and allowed people to come and go
wherever they liked?

~~~
olalonde
Pretty much all economists will agree that it would be a good thing.
Unfortunately, laws are dictated by politics, not economics.

See: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade> and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism>

~~~
theoj
Ah, free trade. Pretty much all economists agree that the economic pie will
get larger, but they are silent about how the pie will be split. Therein lies
the problem.

Most economists will trumpet the increase in societal or collective well-being
but will not give you a straight answer about who accrues the gains, who
accrues the losses, and what amends -- if any -- should be made towards the
economic losers to encourage them to support the proposed schemes. When asked
about these matters, most economists claim that these are outside their
science. They are then surprised that their science is less than relevant and
that people refuse to go along with their plans.

EDIT: If you disagree with my assessment please explain your reasons instead
of downvoting.

EDIT: Added the second paragraph for clarification.

~~~
oscardelben
Can you elaborate into how that could be a problem?

~~~
cromulent
The problem that exists where I live - Finland - is that a society that
develops itself to a point where they are a first-world country where even the
most unfortunate resident can enjoy a secure (if not good) life provided by
the state can easily be taken advantage of by someone from a second world
country.

Once you have enough people taking advantage of such a structure, the equation
no longer works. Taxpayers resent immigrants taking advantage of the safety
net without at least giving the trapeze a shot.

------
jrockway
Seems like the solution is to be paid to prepare the course (in your own
country), and then come to the US and give the course for free.

How do conferences like OSCON deal with paying the speakers they fly in from
other countries?

~~~
baudehlo
They give them a USD cheque after they've given the tutorial.

You're expected to sort your own issues out with regard to getting there and
giving the talk - it's not their problem. Hence why I say: just say you're
attending a conference.

* disclaimer: I've given tutorials at OSCon several times

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mikeryan
I'm not an expert by any means, I'm not even an amateur, but to my untrained
eye it seems like allowing "self-employed independent trainer" would be a
fairly large potential loophole for abuse in a visa program?

~~~
furyg3
Not really, it would very much depend on the length of stay.

Someone requesting a visa to teach a course for a few weeks is perfectly
reasonable, especially if they are coming from a country with reduced
requirements (visa wavier countries) like the EU.

~~~
Nrsolis
Consider the fact that the only real enforcement of immigration laws happens
at the borders here. Once you're in the country, people have (and still)
overstay their visas for years at a time. It's very common and one of the most
abused rules here.

It's so abused that there was literally an effort (to amend our Constitution)
to deny citizenship to children born here from parents who were in the country
illegally.

Skilled/unskilled migration/employment is a touchy topic here because many
citizens feel like corporations and immigrants conspire to avoid the US
employment laws.

I'm not saying it's right; that's just how things are here.

I used to work in London and did so via a student work exchange program. The
visa/permit was limited to 6 months and I had to leave at the end, which I
did. You may not agree with the laws of the country that you are heading to
but you really cant fault them for enforcement. Given that a staggering amount
of business is done with the US by foreign visitors it can't be /that/ much of
a hassle.

------
rubbisho
I went to the US many times in 2009-2010 on VWP. I was working as a software
dev with one of the largest companies in the world and wanted to hang out in
the US to see a girl I liked.

I used to go 3 months at a time, sometimes one month, rent an apartment, work
in the company's offices downtown. I straight up said I was there to see a
girl and "telecommute" in the office with my colleagues back home. Never had a
problem.

~~~
petercooper
Even "telecommuting", assuming it's normal "work" and not just meetings or
chat, is not _technically_ allowed under a normal VWP. But.. it happens a lot
anyway.

~~~
46Bit
Does that mean that going for a vacation and writing part of a book during it
is probably not allowed under visa waiver? Fail...

------
Lucadg
Some countries still think they are the centre of the world and that people
would do anything to get there (like applying for a bloody business visa for a
conference). It's not like that anymore, wake up. The world is full of
opportunities in more open countries and business people are like web users:
id the usability is low, they simply go elsewhere.

~~~
shadowfox
> The world is full of opportunities in more open countries and business
> people are like web users: id the usability is low, they simply go
> elsewhere.

Possibly true. But until this trend has a noticeable effect on their
economies, countries don't have an incentive to change their policies.

~~~
Lucadg
They have the incentive but they probably fail to recognize this as a threat.
Usually until it's too late. We have seen this over and over in history and it
may even be positive as it provides a chance for power shifts.

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olalonde
Though experiment: let's say he lied to the customs, what are the odds of him
getting caught?

~~~
clistctrl
Whats the worst that will happen? They're already sending him home.

~~~
rglullis
It could be worse. If he is caught lying (not that it is easy, see my comment
above), he can be denied entrance to the US for 5-10 years.

~~~
taken11
Being denied entry is enough to be excluded from the Visa Weaver program. He
needs to get at a minimum a 6 month multiple entry tourist visa in order to
enter the U.S. now. They will still take him for extra questioning each time
he enters. It will take hours each time.

~~~
jrockway
How does the US correlate the two files if you change your name in your home
country?

~~~
zuppy
When you apply for a visa, they take your fingerprints.

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bitless
someone remind me, why employment is at all restricted between first world
countries?

~~~
pmcginn
Why do you think a brilliant European should be allowed to work in America but
not a brilliant African?

Or did you simply mean that rich, educated people should be given
international mobility while poor, uneducated people should be content to rot
where they were born?

~~~
sixtofour
I think he meant that infrastructure between first world countries is more or
less integrated, and citizens are easily tracked and observable, so it should
be theoretically easy and safe to have their mutual borders more or less open.
Or something like that.

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evangineer
Yeouch, a lesson to any non-American who gets a paying gig in the USA!

Make sure everything is in order before you get on the plane to the States.

~~~
canadiancreed
As someone that goes to the states often, and have been looking for
telecommuting work, that puts a big fly in the oitment.

~~~
DeanCollinsLCC
for those of you thinking of applying for a greencard to work in the USA
please google "Heart Taxation Act" first.

it was introduced 4 months AFTER my greencard was approved..... I'm planning
on departing the USA for good on Dec 2015 because of it.

~~~
jamiebri
That's enough time to get citizenship. The argument is probably "If you are
going to stay, get involved, make a commitment. If you don't think its worth
that, then by all means leave."

~~~
mahyarm
The US is the only country in the world that does this. Tax it's citizens even
if they don't live there for years and own no property in it's borders, or
people who have lived there. It's the big wrench in me wanting to get a green
card in the USA unfortunately.

The HEART act is also very ironic, since it is basically taxation without
representation, one of the founding reasons of America.

~~~
jleyank
Unless you live in a country with lower tax rates than the US, the annual cost
of such taxation is paper, toner and postage. The advantage is that you can
enter/leave without having to resolve your holdings with the IRS (at least as
a citizen, no idea whether this applies to green card holders).

------
alanh
The domain name is quite apt for this post. (The trip turned out to be a no-
op. <http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/n/no-op.html>)

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swileran
So unfortunate we don't see that non-american minds want to positively
contribute to American society.

