
London's first pay-per-minute cafe - wr1472
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/jan/08/pay-per-minute-cafe-ziferblat-london-russia
======
michaelt
According to this: [http://calvertjournal.com/articles/show/1845/ziferblat-
russi...](http://calvertjournal.com/articles/show/1845/ziferblat-russian-anti-
cafe-opens-in-london) it's £1.80 an hour, or £9 to stay as long as you want. A
nearby coworking space, Google Campus, is £90 for 30 hours a month with coffee
and tea paid for separately.

Of course, it would be easy to create an environment that deterred laptop
users if that's not compatible with what they're hoping to achieve.

~~~
GigabyteCoin
Wouldn't this cafe eventually be filled with freeloaders who pay 9 pounds per
day in order to get gourmet coffee and food all day long? That's a pretty good
deal if you're a cheapskate living in london. Sandwhiches can be 9 pounds by
themselves.

~~~
michaelt
The impression I get from [1] is when a reporter visited the food was
biscuits, peanut butter, toast and an onion (Apparently customers are invited
to bring and cook their own food)

£9 would get you four loaves of bread[2] and three jars of peanut butter[3].
You'd have to be pretty hungry to eat enough of that for them to make a loss.

I assume the concept is fairly experimental at the moment, presumably they
won't want people sprinting in, making an espresso for 3p and running out. Or
I might have misunderstood what I read in [1]. In any case, it'll be
interesting to see how it shakes out.

[1] [http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2014/01/08/pay-per-
minute-c...](http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2014/01/08/pay-per-minute-cafe/)
[2] [https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Wholemeal-Bread-
Medium...](https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Wholemeal-Bread-Medium-
Sliced-essential-Waitrose/15887011) [3]
[https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Crunchy-Peanut-
Butter-...](https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Crunchy-Peanut-Butter-
essential-Waitrose/10637011)

~~~
GigabyteCoin
I used freeloader as a nicer word for "vagrant". You can't buy four loaves of
bread if you don't own a fridge to store it in.

~~~
michaelt
No, but if you have £9 a day you can buy a single loaf of bread and still have
£8 left over.

I guess if you were homeless it might be worth £9 a day to have somewhere warm
and indoors to stay, but the free entry museums, art galleries and libraries
don't seem to get full of homeless people.

I have heard reports of 'pay what you like' restaurants getting filled up with
homeless people, so I can see where you're coming from.

~~~
kokey
I think the fact that you can buy 4 liters of White Lightning for that money
instead negates the necessity to find somewhere warm and indoors.

~~~
WickyNilliams
Whilst this is probably a joke, it's still a sweeping generalisation of the
homeless that paints those in an incredibly unfortunate position as nothing
more than cider swigging alcoholics. There are few things that irk me more
than vilification of the homeless

~~~
gutnor
I don't want to vilify my fellow Londoners, but to me, that's more a sweeping
generalization of London. Getting wasted seems to be the #1 hobby of most the
people I know here, no reason the homeless cannot have their share of fun.

------
manishsharan
I really think all coffee shops should start charging people for loitering
long after they have finish their coffee.

I live in Toronto and I can't remember when was the last time my wife and I
were able to enjoy a latte while sitting at a Starbucks or Timothys. Nowadays,
it seems all coffee shops are overrun with kids doing their homework or
whatever. The worst part is that the laptop/tablet people barely make eye
contact with others; they are so engrossed in their screen !

Thankfully,we found a smaller coffee shop which does not offer Wifi and where
the owners discourage loitering / homeworks.

~~~
eigenvector
When I was at U of T, I used to blame all the coffee shops being filled with
students on the university not providing adequate work/study space for its
44,000 students (a few of my friends got banned from a nearby Second Cup after
using a booth at the back to solder circuit boards for a design project).

After graduating I moved to the suburbs, where Starbucks is rammed with high
school students doing homework but the public library across the street is
empty despite having more comfortable seating, faster Wi-Fi and you know,
actually being intended as an open public space for quiet reading and study.

~~~
bunderbunder
Does the library sell good coffee and tea which you're allowed to take to the
workspaces, and have pleasant lighting?

My old college's library would allow you to bring in beverages in containers
that have tight-fitting lids, and was well-lit and comfortable. It was also
jammed with students in there studying at all hours. The university I live
near now allows zero food or beverages and has cheap, eye strain inducing
fluorescent lighting, and it's a ghost town. The only reason I spend any time
studying there is that as a non-student I'm not allowed to check out books.

~~~
MartinCron
_Does the library sell good coffee and tea..._

Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. It must be
something else.

~~~
ams6110
Subjective, and goodness of coffee is not binary. Starbucks coffee is, IMO,
better than what you find at most "affordable" restaurants, sandwich shops,
diners, etc.

If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they
just want something better than Folgers.

There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much
the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.

~~~
MartinCron
I think you missed the joke. Here in Seattle, it is trendy to look down on
Starbucks, that is all.

Totally agree about the McDonald's effect. When traveling I am often happy to
enter the Mermaid's consistent embrace.

~~~
stephen_g
I don't look down on Starbucks because it's trendy, but because the coffee is
poorer than even average cafés in my city...

You can see just from looking in the grinders that their beans are over-
roasted (which I guess improves consistency but destroys flavour) and they
make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk.

~~~
specialist
Mass market coffee.

I have huge respect for what Starbucks does. For decades, most roasters got
their start at Starbucks or Tullys.

In the 10 million pounds of beans Starbucks buys every year, there's some
percentage that must be awesome. Buying for myself, I'll get seasonals,
varietals, vs the blends. Panama, harar, sumatra. Starbucks also sells whole
bean light roast for tastes like my gf's, like the blond, which is sometimes
available as drip over the counter.

But mostly I buy either Herkimer or Lighthouse. They're indies, who obsess
over the product, from purchasing thru roasting thru pulling the shots.

herkimercoffe.com

lighthouseroasters.com

------
eponeponepon
So for 15p I can go in, make my own four-or-five shot latte, spill the milk
everywhere because I'm hurrying, stuff my mouth full of biscuits, and walk out
again?

Do they expect profit..? Or is the rest of the service industry just gouging
us silly?

[edit: typo]

~~~
darklajid
Yeah, and you can go to all-you-can-eat meals and skip eating a day before and
after to get the most out of it.

I agree that the business might seem risky in quite some ways, but .. exploits
like yours are probably possible in a lot of places. I'm reasonably sure that
I could go to a good number of hotels, check in for a number of days, have my
breakfast/empty the minibar and leave. Going to a cafe and leaving without
paying is usually trivial, only social norms stop you from doing that (or ..
don't).

~~~
zht
where in the world can you find a hotel where you are not charged for what you
take from the minibar?

~~~
darklajid
Uhm..

\- all hotels that I know of (and I traveled quite a lot. In fact I write this
from a hotel in Bern, CH) charge you at the end of your stay. A good number of
hotels don't check your ID/your personal information. My point above was to
just leave early, with or without clearing the minibar. It's possible and not
hard.

\- I know more than a handful of people that just go to the reception, pay for
the room. 'Sir, did you take anything from the minibar?' \- 'No'. Of course
they did. Now the hotel certainly can (after the guest departed) find out that
it was cheated. And now .. what? The guest was probably from another country.
Are you going to send a bill and hope for them to pay after lying to you
previously? For a beer or three? Turns out .. a lot of hotels don't do that
and never reach out to you.

(Disclaimer: I haven't done that myself, I'm too cheap to buy the minibar
items. My minimbar, at right this moment, is filled with beer I bought at a
supermarket and brought to my room. But I _have_ been part of these exploits
over and over again, even standing next to people that declined the question
of whether they used the minibar and I was in their room! There are usually no
consequences. If there are, you can ignore it - or say 'Oh, yeah. My fault'
and pay up without repercussions)

~~~
robdrimmie
It may be a regional thing. Many (I'd say most, but I don't know the actual
percentage) hotels in North America require a credit card, even if you're
paying by cash. They will just charge the card after you leave.

~~~
darklajid
That doesn't apply over here (see the less carefully crafted version of your
statement/the sibling comment).

That said: What happens if you _have_ a credit card that backs the room, but
not the rest of the expenses? I usually travel with a CC (from my employer)
backing the room. I never pay my room myself. That said, the hotel isn't
allowed to charge minibar/massage/champagne at 3am by room service on the
company card - and has no reliable information about me [1].

1: Yes, obviously it's rather dumb to run off with a TV if my company reserved
the room or something. But again, as stated elsewhere in this thread: I've
seen a number of people getting away with minibar-theft, very easily.

~~~
darklajid
Replying here, since HN likes me to calm down or something and hides the
direct reply link.

First of all: Thanks a lot for taking me somewhat serious. :)

This is enforced by the letter of my company that states "Our Employee is
staying in your hotel. We will cover his room, breakfast, wifi, parking.
Please charge the following CC". Everything else is my business. If I eat at
the hotel's restaurant I can charge that to my room. When I check out, I have
to pay up for the things that aren't cleared for the CC - i.e. still open.

Even if I steal from the hotel and run off with the couch in this room: The
company specifically offered their CC for a number of services, paying for me
stealing furniture isn't part of that agreement. If I break something they
cannot charge the company CC (but at a certain amount will certainly ask my
company, which is on file and well-known, to relay a bill to me).

Just having a CC number is not enough to charge it with random things.

~~~
darklajid
Replying again as a sibling, because it's 1:30 am and .. I don't care about
waiting 10-15min for the reply button. ;-)

Thanks a lot for the clarification. As I said: I didn't have a CC for most of
my life and had to trouble to check into a hotel. Sometimes a cash deposit was
indeed required, but that was unusual (and mostly in seedy/grimey/ugly kind of
places).

I think a big misunderstanding is the 'company CC' here. There's just one. For
the company. Not one for me, for the company. My company has a _single_ CC
covering travel expenses (and god knows what). So someone (travel agency,
customer, me, who ever) is booking a hotel. My company sends a polite letter
to the hotel, stating that it would cover my stay (see above, limitations etc)
and offers the CC details or - still quite often the case - asks even to
receive the bill by mail.

The hotel has no CC that I gave it, ever. Not mine, not a CC that the company
gave me (I .. don't have something like that, doubt that it exists in this
company outside of maybe some people in the higher sales ranks and .. well ..
maybe the US? No clue). The name on the CC used for these things is actually
my CEO, last time I checked.

Hackable: Well, the whole thread is about abuse, but I think you're caught up
in that misunderstanding: I'm not providing a CC and forge a letter that says
'Yeah, but please just charge the room'. I'd have to forge a letter that says
'Please charge the room to the following CC'..

That said.. Again: Often enough we ask for a bill. In that case we tell the
hotel: "Please send the bill for the stay (room/breakfast...) to company name,
street, city". Is that hackable? Probably. It's a protocol that wasn't
designed to protect against abuse. Just as I am able to send you emails from
president@whitehouse.gov as long as I'm able to find an open smtp relay. That
doesn't mean that everyone or even a significant number of people does it..

~~~
icebraining
Tip: you can reply immediately (without waiting for the reply link), by
clicking on the "link" of the post you want to reply to.

------
golergka
I'm surprised to find out that it's first of it's kind in London. In Moscow
these place became quite common in the recent years; it's a great place to
chat with friends, or gather big companies. They usually have a selection of
available board games and other company-oriented entertainment.

------
gingerlime
sounds brilliant. I always feel guilty/uncomfortable sitting too long, but
with this kind of place you never feel guilty.

1.80 per hour and includes everything (coffee?) sounds like a bargain in
London standards. That won't buy you a cup of coffee in most other places as
far as I remember, let alone fruit, vegetables, biscuits etc... Even cheaper
than co-working spaces(?), especially for casual use.

------
gms7777
Clearly the idea has worked in Russia, but I find it hard to see how charging
a flat rate can be financially viable. The pricing seems like such a fine line
to make it cheap enough for its intended usage (people hanging around and
such) but expensive enough to cover the food. As other commenters pointed out
already, you could walk in, take a bunch of food and expensive coffee and
leave.

I think one way of attacking this problem would be similar to taxi-cab pricing
(X for the first mile and Y (where Y<<X) for every subseqeunt one. Essentially
adding a flat fee of a few bucks just for walking in, then charging a small
amount per minute to hang around.

~~~
guard-of-terra
They don't offer food (bring your own) just cookies, and you won't
realistically chew too many cookies. They also have coffee from coffee
machine. The whole idea is to make it feel like home (that many people in the
city lack while renting something ugly) - assorted old furniture and a good
company.

------
acgourley
Workshop Cafe in SF does it by the hour, seems to work pretty well. You get 10
hours free to start, it's worth your time to stop by for those hours at least.

~~~
kchung
Workshop Cafe is one of my favorite places to work in SF. You don't feel like
a cafe squatter since you pay for your seat, and its always nice working
around like-minded individuals. Plus there are so many outlets...
[http://workshopcafe.com/](http://workshopcafe.com/)

~~~
tdumitrescu
I just spent a few hours there. It was pretty much at capacity the whole time.
Cool to see it succeeding such a short time after opening. Though for me
personally I can't say the environment there's ever been particularly
conducive to meeting any of the supposedly like-minded individuals staring at
their screens next to you.

~~~
kevinflo
They've actually just started adding social features to the app. It's all opt-
in, but if you want you can share who you are, what you're working on, and
where you're sitting when you check in. You can tell it is really just their
first step in encouraging that kind of thing. Such a great place to work.

~~~
jadence
Developer for Workshop Café here. The recently-released social features
(Community Page) are definitely just the MVP. Would love to know what you
think. We're going to see how people use it and add stuff we think is helpful.
We've already noticed people putting their contact info and links to their
personal pages, projects, etc. Hope it catches on!

~~~
tdumitrescu
Oh tight. I hadn't even noticed the feature, because I just use the app to
check in and out. Would love to have more first-class 'desktop' web support,
since once I'm sitting there already using my laptop I don't want to have to
keep whipping out my phone to do things.

But it's totally awesome to have the capability to check out who's there. I
hope it goes a long way toward fostering a community there and helping people
make useful contacts.

~~~
jadence
Glad you're also excited!

You can currently use the app on your desktop browser using the same url
([https://app.workshopcafe.com](https://app.workshopcafe.com)) and get the
same feature set as you get on your phone (Except for things that require a
phone like calling or texting in orders). No need to switch from your laptop!

------
kushti
There are probably more than 10 "anticafes" in Saint-Petersburg(as "Ziferblat"
had great success after opening in early 2012). Some of them are profitable,
AIK. Ziferblat is the good place for hanging out, but too noisy to work(many
students playing table games around). If you want to work, better choices are
"3rd place"("tretje mesto"), me4ta.tv(far away from center, but best choice
probably if you're staying in northern districts of the city) or even
IMarussia.

P.S. In Saint-Petersburg's Ziferblat, you can take coffee-to-go for free but
donations are highly welcomed.

------
kfk
So, I run some numbers.

First, all back in Euro, the a 20%VAT gives us:

1.73 per hour

Considering this place is a cafe and runs only during day starting very early,
it can run at 12 hrs day. Let's also take the normal accounting standard of
30days per month.

This gives us:

Monthly income: 1.73 x 12 x 30 x X

Where X is the avg hourly nr of people in the cafe'.

Say X is 15 --> Monthly revenue: Eur 9400

Considering 1 waiter at a cost of 4000, rent at a cost of 2000, utilities at a
cost of 500, food/coffee at 1000, we have about EUR 2000 of profits for 1
cafe'. Excluding amortizations and other overhead I probably forgot to
consider.

But I think 15 hourly is a bit optimistic, how big is this place?

~~~
chippy
from the article, the image used has more than 15 seats. I counted around 25.
Their website has more images:
[http://london.ziferblat.net/](http://london.ziferblat.net/)

------
guard-of-terra
I'm very fond of anticafes as an idea. We usually gather there to play board
games or for birthday parties. AMA :)

You can drink tea and coffee with cookies or you can bring your own cake or
you can order pizza/sushi delivery.

We've visited a Ziferblat/Ziferburg in SpB and it's amazing, they're sitting
on the top floor of a historic building just opposite Gostinyy Dvor (and near
the jealousy-inspiring VK office btw), they even have a piano there.

------
rabz
Coffee in other places is expensive precisely because the price is a stand-in
for table-space and queuing rent. The cafe charges for the opportunity cost of
someone peeking in seeing the line too long or the tables too full and running
out. Same thing with corkage charges—wine-drinkers longer longer.

The person who runs into a place like this, grabs food and a latte, and runs
out is not doin them economic harm.

------
deet
The opposite concept can also work: free work space but no outside food or
drink.

Next Door in Chicago offers a good work environment (tables, some cubicles and
private rooms with excellent internet), and is completely free. Using it for
work is encouraged. A cafe inside does very good business from the people who
are otherwise there to work (no outside food or drink is allowed) . It's
sponsored (by State Farm), so it's possible the cafe might not be able to
support the space on it's own, but the fact that an environment where work is
explicitly free brings substantial revenue for the cafe suggests that model
might be viable.

~~~
acjohnson55
CapitalOne does a 360 Café idea in many places that's quite similar.

------
pixelcort
In Japan, see also
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_cafe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_cafe)

Paying per minute reminds me of paying per minute for virtual servers.

~~~
patio11
The manga cafe is one of my favorite Japanese institutions, though the utility
is lower now that I'm married. It's a no-notice dirt-cheap hotel (if you're
amenable to sleeping in a recliner), a mid-day nap, an instant office-with-a-
door, an instant wifi connection and (typically) open outlet, serviceable
liquid refreshments, climate controlled like a business rather than Japanese
houses (i.e. always tolerable, which is not a hard-and-fast requirement for
Japanese apartments/houses), and virtually guaranteed to be tolerant of people
at the margins of society [+].

[+] This can be useful if it is 2 AM and you're in a city you don't live in
with a face that says "I am at the margins of Japanese society; nobody will
fault your hotel if you refuse my business on the excuse that you are fully
booked... on a Thursday... but could be unbooked if I were willing to have
someone from my office call to vouch for me."

------
Evgeniuz
I live in Mykolayiv, small city in Ukraine and we have similar venue here
called "Moloko" (milk in ukrainian). It's not snacks or tea/coffee that
matters, it's community and events that happen there.

Owners actively encourage socialising, there are events almost every day and
it hosts several clubs. In fact I just returned a few hours from Mafia club
meeting there.

Also, they encourage to host your own events there, for free. I. e. they get
paid from visitors and you get venue. You can also take higher price for your
event if needed.

------
antoinec
There is the pretty much the same concept in Paris, except that you pay per
hour. [http://anticafe.fr/en](http://anticafe.fr/en)

They have plugs all over the place and the wifi is much better than in any
other cafe, which makes it a really nice place for working.

------
tsmith
3p/minute = 5 cents US per minute, or $3 per hour?

Seems incredible!

~~~
justhw
What is p? certainly not pounds, right?

~~~
jmgrosen
Pence.

~~~
delinka
And maybe include "how many pence to a pound"? My assumption is this is like
pennies and the US dollar - 100 pennies to a dollar; therefore 100 pence to a
pound?

------
theorique
It sounds a lot like an airline club lounge - free food, drink, wifi,
printing, etc.

~~~
damian2000
Or a new car dealership service waiting area ... at least one I've been to had
all this.

~~~
corin_
If all you're looking for in the comparison is "somewhere to sit, a coffee
machine, etc." then it matches many things. GP's point with the airport lounge
comparison is that it matches not just in objects but in purpose / business
model.

~~~
theorique
Well, yeah.

The interesting thing is the pricing model - at the airline club, you prepay
for it by either paying per session (very expensive), having a club membership
through some means, or else it's baked into the price of a first-class ticket.

In the per-minute case, I'm trying to think of how usage patterns would vary
from those of an airline club. It would be interesting to compare to other
models as well, such as a co-working space that offers free coffee and treats.

------
Xymak1y
While there are comments that mention getting drinks to go, I think 1.80
pounds are extremely cheap for spending time at a place, drinks and snacks
included. I'd go.

------
dkersten
I like this idea. Would love to see more things like this.

~~~
mjolk
Then become a customer or donate money.

~~~
dkersten
Too far away to become a customer. Will look into donating money.

------
United857
They seem to use analog clocks that are given to each customer to record time.
What's to prevent someone from (literally) turning the clock back?

~~~
guard-of-terra
In Ziferburg SpB, every clock is different and have a name written on it, they
look up that name in their log and charge you the difference.

So the clock is purely flavour. Other anticafes may just ask for your name and
use it as index.

These places usually attract people who are cool. So I won't expect much
cheating anyway.

------
dkuznetsov
If it's 3 pounds per minute, it's a bit too expensive. If it's 3 pence per
minute, it's probably too cheap.

------
Kiro
> It's funny to see people queueing here to wash their dishes. It's not
> obligatory, but it's appreciated. They even wash each other's dishes. It's
> very social.

I don't understand why pay-per-minute would lead to this. Doesn't that mean
people are paying to wash other peoples' dishes?

~~~
delinka
You forget the English stereotype where everyone is always so nice! More
seriously, if they're making the place "feel like home" (limited snack
options, coffee-machine dreg rather than barista-prepared fluff, etc), then I
suspect it's a feeling of community: let's keep the place nice and clean not
just for the owners of the building, but also for us, the ones who 'live'
here.

------
appplemac
Kiev's Ziferblat is a really amazing place: it became a real centre for the
city's creative youth with a good selection of free international press
(doesn't happen much in Ukraine), nice workshops, movie nights and other
stuff. Let's see if Londoners can be as open as Ukrainians.

------
midas007
Interesting. Moscow has had these for quite a while.

From the owner side, it seems like the way to keep people from buying the
cheapest thing and occupying a table.

From the consumption side, is seems like another way to squeeze more money out
of people and give another reason to exclude people on basis of economics.

------
woodylondon
Genius idea! Long thought that about a space you could turn up, surf the web,
chill out. If they have set this up as they describe could feel move like your
home away from home. Surf the web, grab a drink, make some new friends etc.
Going to check it out soon!

------
Numberwang
1 Coffee to go please.

------
jrockway
Do the waitstaff dress up like characters from popular manga/anime series? If
so, this is nothing new.

~~~
chippy
"nothing new"

For London?

------
sreevishwa
Is this financially viable?

------
etanazir
see also
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang)

