

RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss - ajg1977
http://crackberry.com/rim-official-statment-response-apples-iphone-4-antenna-propaganda

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bombs
If the antenna is internal (and invisible) how many would even realise they
were affecting it in any way? Apple drew a lot of attention to its antenna,
both in terms of design and marketing, so how many people reported problems
after deliberately trying to screw with it?

I just made my iPhone 3GS, Blackberry 9700 and Nokia N97 all drop a couple of
bars by covering their internal antennas with my palm. I expect this to happen
with any phone.

~~~
DougBTX
The point is that you can have the same effect on an iPhone 4 with your pinky.

~~~
moxiemk1
Though the ease of producing the problem on the iPhone 4 is very real, this
argument annoys me:

No one touches their pinky over that line in normal use. Does it cause a
problem? Yes. Does anyone just sit there with one finger on the side of the
phone? No.

Instead, say that a grip natural to a large number of users causes signal
loss.

~~~
DrJokepu
I do touch the line with my pinky in normal use all the time. Maybe I have an
abnormally shaped hand, I don't know. That being said, I love my new iPhone 4,
I'm a new convert from Android and I don't really have reception problems.

~~~
moxiemk1
That's legitimate, but the problem isn't "your pinky touches the line" its "my
grip (and it's not an odd grip) causes my pinky to touch the line".

People making videos of an iPhone on a table, and one finger coming up and
touching it are alarmist ways of treating the problem. Not that its not a very
serious real problem, but let's be reasonable and only talk about the issues
it has when we're actually using it.

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glhaynes
Ask the average iPhone 4 user: would you rather have the new antenna design,
which generally considerably outperforms the old design (not to mention all
the side benefits such as making the device so thin and strong), or would you
like a design like the 3GS back, which outperforms the 4 in one specific
circumstance that doesn't seem to affect most people in real usage?

~~~
CamperBob
Something this whole sordid saga has made me appreciate is that the 3GS is
really a damned awesome phone. It feels good in my hand, it can run IOS 4
without slowing to a crawl, its proximity sensor works well, and it doesn't
tend to drop calls or not drop calls based on how it's held. It was designed
before Apple got complacent, and it shows.

My SO has an original 3G model and it feels a lot slower, even without
upgrading to IOS 4. I was going to upgrade both our phones when the iPhone 4
was first announced, but I failed to get our pre-orders in on time, and now
I'm sort of glad -- especially since I'm not the one stuck with the slower 3G.
:)

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sigzero
Did you notice RIM didn't deny it?

~~~
grandalf
I can't reproduce it on my bb curve 9800

~~~
edster
point?

<sorry, inside joke to one of grandalf other comments>

~~~
grandalf
Hah. Well, I followed the procedure blackberry that I read causes the bars to
decrease in the iphone 4. There was no decrease whatsoever.

~~~
megablast
Do you understand that this is related not just to how you hold the phone, but
where you are and what reception you are getting. There are plenty of people
(most?) that can not produce this on the iphones either.

~~~
grandalf
I wasn't attempting to insinuate that all iPhone 4G's are easy to trigger this
in, but I wanted to defend Blackberry from the unfair attack by Apple. I have
had a few Blackberries and none have ever had any noticeable hand position
related signal loss across a variety of signal strength and location
environments.

~~~
megablast
How is this an unfair attack? It is not an attack at all, it is simple
physics. All phones have this problem, the media are focusing on just one
phone, because it is more newsworthy. Apple are saying it is a problem with
most phones out there, the iPhone is no different. You really see that as an
attack.

------
EdsonGould
"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable.
Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort
the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention
from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and
has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with
efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time,
RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead
has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls,
especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's
customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain
proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should
take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and
others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple."

\- Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie

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sz
I wish they would post actual measurements, as in Anandtech analysis articles.
A video is nice, but are there any dB measurements out there?

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onedognight
Crackberry's call for duplication

 _Apple's test? Go to an area where you have full bars while holding the phone
gingerly, then change that loose grip to a bit more of a death grip._

is flawed given that "full bars" can indicate an arbitrarily strong signal. In
order to see the effect Apple demonstrated you will most likely need to be in
a location where you just _barely_ have "full bars".

Why are we linking to a website that either doesn't understand the how the
"bars" work on phone or is only trying to add misinformation the discussion?

~~~
statictype
The statement itself was issued by RIM. I'm pretty sure they know a thing or
two about bars and antenna design.

~~~
onedognight
I too am pretty sure RIM knows about about antenna design which is why they
didn't deny Apple's claim that many, including their own, smart phones are
subject to a grip of death. crackberry (which is what the OP linked to)
however insinuate (through their flawed survey) that it wasn't.

~~~
grandalf
I could not make my bb curve lose any bars from gripping, holding, etc. I
tried very hard...

~~~
MWinther
Just like there are people not being able to reproduce the problem on their
iPhone 4.

~~~
grandalf
Point?

~~~
edster
The point is the single data point you are providing. Finding iPhone 4 users
with this same data point of not having a problem point to the fact the you
entirely missed the point.

~~~
grandalf
I thought that with any iphone 4 in all but the strongest signal areas it was
possible to cause a decrease in measured signal by doing the death grip.

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shin_lao
So every telephone can get signal attenuation if you hold it in a certain
fashion in certain reception conditions. That sounds plausible, although I
never experienced the problem with my bb bold, I'm ready to accept this
problem can be reproduced.

That's not the issue at hand. The issue with the iPhone 4 is that it's very
easy to drop calls and get signal attenuation. The reports are too numerous to
be just a sporadic problem. Whether this is a problem in the manufacturing
process (which would explain why not all telephones have the problem) or the
design, only Apple knows.

At first they say there is no antenna problem. Then they say it's a bug in the
software. Now they say "well all phones have this problem".

I think inspector Columbo would say "Aahh! Of course, all phones have the
problem... Now Mr. Jobs, just one more thing..."

~~~
tjogin
First. If the problem is as widespread as you think, how do you reconcile that
with AT&T's dropped calls statistics that show that it drops _less than 1%_
more calls than the iPhone 3GS?

Second. How do you reconcile it with AnandTech's tests that show that the
iPhone 4 is _better_ at keeping calls even with a poor signal?

~~~
Geee
It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates
are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls.

I made some research on this and found <http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022>
which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a
lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%.

iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's
clearly not enough when the phone seems to lose the signal altogether.

Edit: Jobs said clearly that the 4 drops ~1 calls more per 100 than the 3GS. 1
per 100 -> 2 per 100.

~~~
fuzzybassoon
Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding what Jobs said. They said it drops ~1
call per hundred than the 3GS, not 1 percentage point more. That's a huge
difference. It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops
1.01% of calls.

~~~
Geee
What? I don't really get my head around your math or I just misunderstand what
you are trying to say. 1 call per 100 calls means one percentage point.

Jobs said: "One or less additional dropped call per hundred calls". I don't
know how I should parse this to be "one percent more dropped calls than 3GS".

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CWIZO
My BB Bold 900 looses a bar or two if I cover it in a way that it would be
impossible for me to make calls then. Never had any issues with it, never
drooped a call. But to be fair, I'm in Slovenia in Mobitel's network which is
one of (if not) the best in the world. So maybe all this problems come from
crappy network services too.

~~~
nixy
Jobs clearly stated that the demo of bars being dropped on other brands of
phones was done in an area of bad network reception. If people try the death
grip with good network reception they won't see any drop in bars. As I
understand, this is the same for the iPhone 4.

~~~
Tichy
In the real world, sometimes there is bad network reception. Then there are
people who can still make calls in that area, and people who can't.

~~~
nixy
Yes, but that might account for why this guy isn't able to reproduce the bar
drop.

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gojomo
Does putting the magical and revolutionary attenuation-solving Apple bumper
onto a Blackberry Bold help? :)

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wandwand
I tried apples test on my phone and no go.

~~~
sigzero
I tried it on the 3GS with the antenna inside. It loses bars.

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kwyjibo
They should sue Apple for false claims.

~~~
sigzero
It isn't false. RIM didn't deny it loses bars when held a certain way. They
were just pissed that that Apple showed it to be true. Apple _did_ show it to
be true so there is no false claim.

~~~
Geee
They are really comparing apples to oranges in the sense that they didn't talk
about the iPhone's design flaw, just RF shadowing which is obvious.

There isn't any phone other than iPhone that loses the signal altogether by
just touching one point on the phone.

~~~
OpieCunningham
> There isn't any phone other than iPhone that loses the signal altogether by
> just touching one point on the phone.

Perhaps, but I'm not entirely convinced that is true. It may be, but it may
also be true that other phones do have a one point weakness which isn't marked
by a visual cue. It's just that no one has tested a large selection of phones
to locate that one point.

Of course, I'm not sure why it matters whether a pinky can drop dB ... you
can't hold a phone with just 1 finger touching the side. This is just as much
of an issue as arguing all phones have a major weakness because they drop dB
when wrapped in aluminum foil.

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pierrefar
Did Apple even attempt to provide evidence of the Blackberry having a similar
problem?

~~~
jsz0
They showed a video of the Bold 9700 having a death grip issue which probably
also effects very few people in real world usage. (13% of 9700 owners based on
this site's poll)

~~~
gaius
I have a Bold 9700 and have never had a problem of this kind.

~~~
Terretta
I have an iPhone 4, live in terrible coverage, when this blew up took it out
of the bumper for past two weeks, and can't drop a call even in places my 3GS
and Blackberry Pearl couldn't make calls _at all_... And so?

Bandwagons roll on squeaky wheels.

