
NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests - tsaoutourpants
http://www.mynsarecords.com/blog/2013-06-21-nsa-please-stop-sending-us-foia-requests/
======
dedward
So.. they said please, didn't threaten you, and pointed out a few potential
problems with the method you are using (like missing return addresses).

That seems.. helpful?

~~~
tsaoutourpants
They were certainly polite. :)

I did a quick check for people submitting things like "FUCK YOU" and "YOUR
MOM" in every field and deleted those before sending. A couple I let through
had things like missing city but valid ZIP code, which I assume would actually
be enough to get the letter to them. 95% of what was sent had a full address.

~~~
dfc
_A couple I let through had things like missing city but valid ZIP code, which
I assume would actually be enough to get the letter to them_

Did you ever read their instructions for filing a FOIA request? "If you do not
include a name and complete postal address, NSA will be unable to respond."[1]

While you are here I dont understand what you mean by:

"It seems that the NSA does not quite get that this is a protest, in addition
to a request for information."

How did you expect them to act? And/or what behavior would constitute
recognition that this is a "protest"? NSA is required by law to respond to
FOIA requests. The civil servant that emailed you was doing what her employer
told her to do so that she could continue to bring a paycheck home. Are all
the "protest" FOIA requests supposed to get tossed in a burn bag at the end of
the day?

[1]
[http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...](http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml)

~~~
genwin
Yes, civil servants who flout the oath they took should be just as respected
as those who don't.

> I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the
> Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
> that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...

~~~
dfc
These people work in the FOIA compliance department. How did they violate
their oath?

~~~
genwin
She works for the NSA's FOIA department, hence bearing sufficient
responsibility for the NSA's wrongdoing.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Well, if she's lucky, and if the NSA is competent (at being scumbags) this
lady never gets anywhere near anything interesting.

------
dfc
As far as I am concerned that email is the work product of a dedicated civil
servant. I wish more companies I interact with would do something like google
my name in order to learn about my needs and then email me advice on how to
better utilize their service.

------
surrealize
Protesting can be great. But if a protest only affects low-level paper
handlers with no decision making power, then what are you really
accomplishing?

~~~
tsaoutourpants
I am quite sure that the fact that they are getting so many requests will
travel up higher than the paper handlers. :)

~~~
ejdyksen
What makes you so sure?

~~~
cinquemb
Well doing nothing is one way to be sure that it won't travel up to the higher
ups.

------
diminoten
What's the actual protest? That the paper FOIA requests don't include the
required information to honor said request, allowing the NSA to throw out the
requests entirely without having to spend time fulfilling them?

Sounds more like the ~~company~~ guy is trying to cover for ~~its~~ his fuckup
filling out the forms. It's a _much_ more effective protest to actually make
the NSA follow through with the requests.

Edit: Also, from
[http://www.mynsarecords.com/contact/](http://www.mynsarecords.com/contact/)

    
    
        To reach Jon, please e-mail: jcorbett [at] fourtentech.com
    

Yes, how did they get your email, indeed. Probably some kind of spy
technology.

This man is an idiot, please don't fill up HN with this drivel.

~~~
agwa
> This man is an idiot, please don't fill up HN with this drivel.

This personal insult is uncalled for. It's easy to sit around and complain
about what the government is doing, but this man has actually gone out and
done something - setting up infrastructure to make it easier for the average
person to submit these requests, he is spreading the word, etc. He has also
done great work protesting the TSA.

~~~
saraid216
The linked post is not "great work". It's ignorance piled on indignation.

~~~
cg410
Piled on your mom!

------
DanBC
> It seems that the NSA does not quite get that this is a protest

I don't get it. What's it achieving?

> Imagine the NSA ending up with a desk full of a million records requests,
> and what a statement that would make, even if they refuse to process every
> one of them.

Well, they've got at least 500 so far. Only nine hundred and ninety nine
thousand to go.

I wonder how many of those 500 have any records with NSA?

~~~
unreal37
500.

The NSA is capturing all internet and telephone traffic for every individual
on this planet with a phone or email account.

But perhaps they don't index it by person name, and so 500 becomes 0 because
of that.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
We include the phone number for them so they can look it up :)

~~~
LaurelCrowned
Still don't see the point. You're not going to find anything like phone
transcripts or what tags might be applied to your person. I'm guessing 99% of
the requests will be sent back with "we don't have a folder specifically for
you". Because there isn't one...specifically. We're probably all in their
database as some random character string, only actually linked to our identity
if needed. Unless they have an actual investigation on anyone requesting
information, I doubt anyone's going to get anything more that a boilerplate
response.

Also, the site sending out mail that will just be thrown out because it's not
correctly filled out is a complete waste. I just don't see what the goal of
this is. Just to spam snail mail? If the goal is to just clog up their office
and be a general nuisance as a protest of some sort...at least the forms would
not be sent if they don't have all mailing information. Otherwise it looks
like really childish trolling. To me that is. You providing a phone number
does nothing.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
In order for a record to be releasable under FOIA, it need not be in a file
attached to your name. If I ask the NSA for every document that has the word
"purple" in it, they are required to provide that document or claim a valid
statutory exemption. Likewise, if I ask them for any record that contains
8005551212, they are required to provide it regardless of the labeling on its
container.

~~~
dfc
It is now clear that you have not done any research about what constitutes a
valid FOIA request. If you would like to do some research the DOJ Procedures
guide that I have previously recommended is extremely detailed and thorough. I
was serious when I said you might enjoy reading it if you are interested in
FOIA. Please note, I have only included footnotes 107 and 108 because they
seem to be the most relevant to this comment.

    
    
      Courts have recognized that the legislative history of the 1974 FOIA
      amendments indicates that a description of a requested record is
      sufficient if it enables a professional agency employee familiar with
      the subject area to locate the record with a "reasonable amount of
      effort."[105] Courts have also found that requests that are so broad and
      sweeping that they lack specificity are not reasonably described.[106]
    
      Courts have explained that "[t]he rationale for this rule is that
      FOIA was not intended to reduce government agencies to full-time
      investigators on behalf of requesters,"[107] or to allow requesters
      to conduct "fishing expeditions" through agencyfiles.108 Courts have
      recognized that an agency's FOIA staff is neither required to have
      "clairvoyant capabilities" to discern the requester's needs,[109] nor
      must they spend "countless numbers of personnel hours seeking needles in
      bureaucratic haystacks."[110]
      
      [107] Assassination Archives & Research Ctr. v. CIA, 720 F. Supp. 217,
      219 (D.D.C. 1989), aff'd in pertinent part, No. 89-5414, 1990 WL
      123924 (D.C. Cir. Aug. 13, 1990) (per curiam); accord Nurse v. Sec'y
      of the Air Force, 231 F. Supp. 2d 323, 329 (D.D.C. 2002) (quoting
      Assassination Archives & Research Ctr., 720 F. Supp. at 219); see,
      e.g., Bloeser v. DOJ, 811 F. Supp. 2d 316, 321 (D.D.C. 2011) (reasoning
      that "[b]ecause 'FOIA' was not intended to reduce government agencies
      to full-time investigators on behalf of requesters, . . . [t]o the
      extent that plaintiff can identify documents which he believes exist in
      a particular office within [DOJ], such identifying information should
      have been included as part of his original FOIA request"); Satterlee
      v. IRS, No. 05-3181, 2006 WL 3160963, at *3 (W.D. Mo. Oct. 30, 2006)
      (finding that request was improper where it would require agency to
      "conduct legal research" and answer questions "disguised as . . . FOIA
      request"); Frank v. DOJ, 941 F. Supp. 4, 5 (D.D.C. 1996) (stating that
      agency is not required to "dig out all the information that might
      exist, in whatever form or place it might be found, and to create
      a document that answers plaintiff's questions"); Lamb v. IRS, 871
      F. Supp. 301, 304 (E.D. Mich. 1994) (finding requests outside scope of
      FOIA when they require legal research, are unspecific, or seek answers
      to interrogatories); Trenerry v. Dep't of the Treasury, No. 92-5053,
      1993 WL 26813, at *3 (10th Cir. Feb. 5, 1993) (holding that agency not
      required to provide personal services such as legal research).
      
      
      [108] Immanuel v. Sec'y of the Treasury, No. 94-884, 1995 WL 464141,
      at *1 (D. Md. Apr. 4, 1995), aff'd, 81 F.3d 150 (4th Cir. 1996)
      (unpublished table decision); see also Dale v. IRS, 238 F. Supp. 2d 99,
      104-05 (D.D.C. 2002) (concluding that request seeking "'any and all
      documents . . . that refer or relate in any way'" to requester failed to
      reasonably describe records sought and "amounted to an all-encompassing
      fishing expedition of files at [agency's] offices across the country, at
      taxpayer expense").

------
cg410
They found your e-mail without you giving it to them? Sounds like NSA.

~~~
cschmidt
Pretty spooky. Or maybe the woman just went to his website, and looked at the
contact page.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Yes but... I didn't give them my Web site, either. All they had was my name as
the return address.

~~~
pavs
took me 30 seconds...

If I have your name, which is: Jonathan Corbett.

I google searched "Jonathan Corbett NSA"

The first link is your twitter account:
[https://twitter.com/tsaoutourpants](https://twitter.com/tsaoutourpants)

Which mentions: [http://www.mynsarecords.com/](http://www.mynsarecords.com/)

I do a whois on the site: (public information)

    
    
          Corbett, Jonathan  jcorbett@fourtentech.com
          FourTen Technologies, Inc.
          407 Lincoln Road
          11th Floor
          Miami Beach, Florida 33139
          United States
          8774100410
    

I am assuming he emailed you either there or got your email from your website
which has it in the contact section...

Not very difficult really.

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ianhawes
Read receipt requested? That seems unnecessary given its the NSA.

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spacecadet
So the NSA's secret spy tool is Google search?

------
revelation
You would think the NSA would sign outgoing communication.

Guess not.

