
Mistakes were made: ERP screwups - fanf2
https://tedium.co/2020/01/14/sap-enterprise-vendors-mistakes-history/
======
IceDane
I recently got a job in the ERP industry(SAP), though my purpose is
essentially to do stuff that is not SAP related.

I don't think it should surprise anyone that SAP makes mistakes and/or that
ERP systems are hard to implement. SAP in particular is an absolute
monstrosity. I don't just mean in terms of size either. I can't help but think
about that Nietzsche quote about the abyss.

SAPs systems should become textbook examples of tech debt left to accumulate,
of what happens when systems are allowed to grow in whatever direction is
useful at the time without any thought for the future or proper design. This
isn't very surprising either since I can't imagine that there is any group of
human beings on Earth that is capable of understanding SAPs systems to the
point where they could extend it safely.

SAP also takes the NIH syndrome and makes it a core value. Everything they
make is worse than that other technology that accomplishes the same. See UI5 -
it's like they traveled back in time and hired a CS freshman in the late 90s
to develop it.

When they don't have the expertise to create a copy from scratch, they just
use the competitors' solutions and wrap that in their own marketing. They want
you to only use SAP stuff.

The figures mentioned in the article about how important SAP is to the world's
economy and logistics should scare the living shit out of anyone.

~~~
jimnotgym
On the other hand SAP is still by far my favourite ERP as a finance user.
Interfaces that look like the green-screen dumb-terminals of the past are
fantastically productive for data entry. Tab tab F9

I loved the rigour of the thing, I trusted it.

~~~
privateSFacct
Haha - so true. The first versions of some of the financial packages built on
salesforce and elsewhere - so SLOW. Click, wait, dropdown -> wait for it to
populate with the 1,500 items when devs probably only tested with 5 etc etc,
then click, wait, click, wait. All much better now of course, but the early
years were terrible.

~~~
jimnotgym
I find Netsuite is still combersome for fast data entry. But it is also very
flexible and extensible...

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jon-wood
I'm not usually one to complain about the quality of an article, but this one
seemed to be almost completely devoid of actual content. I was hoping for some
actual analysis of why the projects mentioned failed, and instead didn't
really get anything more than a brief explanation of what ERP and SAP are, and
the fact they sometimes don't work out.

~~~
freshhawk
I looked around a bit thinking there must be an actual article starting on
page 2 or something.

This is like, 3 factoids from wikipedia stretched out with filler sentences.

~~~
jrochkind1
I gave up 1/3rd of the way through and figured I'd check the HN comments and
anyone would mention any highlights if they mattered.

Feel proud that my BS detector is apparently functioning well!

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wayoutthere
I don't think I've ever heard of an ERP implementation that _wasn 't_ an
absolute clusterfuck. My impression is that while most folks from the
integrators know their segment of the product pretty well, they don't have
deep technical skills in a general sense or know much about other modules of
the product. Also that the salespeople know almost nothing about the product
and promise that it can do things it cannot. The customer eventually figures
this out and ends up ripping out and re-implement tools from other vendors.

It's a common joke for senior technology leaders at industrial companies to
ask eachother "so what was the first ERP implementation you got fired for?"

~~~
crispyambulance
I find it _impossible_ to believe that an ERP implementation can ever "go
smoothly".

At best, even if the system does what it does perfectly, it's still a classic
"diffusion of innovation" (1) problem where you have multiple stakeholders
with wildly varying levels of acceptance. This is always challenging. As those
of you who make a living at this stuff recommend, it's better to go 100% with
the ERP's way and not customize. Well, that can be extremely difficult or
impossible in an environment filled with stubborn beancounter/battle-axe
personalities.

Most importantly, however, the people who make the purchasing and sign-off
decisions ARE NOT the ones who use the thing. There are going to be problems
and those problems will not usually bubble back up to the consultant/vendor.
People will just have their noses pushed to the grindstone until the job gets
done-- never mind the tedium, never mind the countless little mistakes. New
people don't get trained, they just get put in front of the the thing to hunt
and peck through it, sometimes with the assistance of a surly veteran of the
system, sometimes with no one to help them. There are thousands upon thousands
of people sitting in cubicles right now using Oracle EBS with it's horrible
grey java applet UI and ridiculous inscrutable query functionality. They've
been sitting there suffering it since the 90's. Who listens to their screams?
Not Oracle, not exec that bought the thing! Or maybe they're silent and
they've resigned themselves to their fate?

(1)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations)

~~~
gav
> I find it impossible to believe that an ERP implementation can ever "go
> smoothly".

ERP implementations are like kitchen remodels. Even when they go mostly right,
you hate the people doing the work because they've messed up the thing that's
at the center of your home, made you eat take-out for weeks, and dust has gone
everywhere.

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danpalmer
I’m a software engineer and likely to be involved in implementing an ERP at
the company I work for.

Ignoring whether or not we should (we’ll put a lot of thought into this), does
anyone have any tips on what to do or avoid to make a project like this a
success?

~~~
jimnotgym
I have spent a lot of my career fixing botched implementations. And I have
seen it go perfectly...

Write your requirements for the system in plain English bullet points. Give
this to vendors.

Write a plan of what you would like to see on the demo. Btw you want to see
the boring stuff, not the colourful charts. Book a whole day. Take a person
from purchasing, accounts, sales. Get them to create a sku and a supplier, get
them to buy it. Get them to receipt it, get them to show the accountant how
that affected the ledgers. Move it sell it, collect the cash etc. Now you know
something about whether it will fit and whether you rate the vendor.

Could the company afford it costing twice what you planned? If not then maybe
ERP is not for you.

You need a test system.

Allocate a lead person for every department. Let's call them the power user.

At key check points the vendor should want you to do testing. Write a test
plan for end to end transactions like my demo example. Get your power users to
do the test, this gives you buy-in, sign off and critically, job specific user
training.

Allocate a huge sum of money for user training. Trainers are expensive. Job
specific training is the only thing of value. There are often several ways to
do something, only train in the one you have chosen.

The trainers need to be on-site for all of go-live week. Budget for this.

Don't train too early

Go standard, don't customise, work the way the ERP wants

On a phone but this feels like it would make a blog post!

~~~
NicoJuicy
I think adjusting to how the ERP package works and not invert it is the most
important comment to save money and to make it a success.

~~~
privateSFacct
And is the hardest thing to do in a big org.

My one addition -> focus not on the new things the system will do for you
(which is what the bosses are into) but focus on what will change / be lost
compared to the system you are using.

Oh, we can't edit transactions anymore ever? OUCH. Everyone edits all the
time.

~~~
jimnotgym
I'm going through this right now, taking editing rights off people. So hard
when they are used to it!

So I will add this tip. Keep your user roles simple. Start with the principle
of 'least privilege'. It is so much easier to add access than remove it.

~~~
privateSFacct
If you can do it separately from any systems conversion you will be much
happier. Either before or after.

And see if you can keep some of the key minimum editing in or your users will
hate you forever. I've heard comments 5 YEARS later about this issue.

------
pessimizer
I found this article super-difficult to read (due to the weird layout), but as
far as I can tell they didn't mention Levi Strauss & Co and Waste Management,
which is weirder than the layout.

[https://www.zdnet.com/article/levi-strauss-sap-rollout-
subst...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/levi-strauss-sap-rollout-
substantially-hurt-quarter/)

[https://www.computerworld.com/article/2536212/waste-
manageme...](https://www.computerworld.com/article/2536212/waste-management-
sues-sap-over-erp-implementation.html)

Both $100MM+ boondoggles.

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nkoren
A botched SAP implementation played a significant role in the $2.1B implosion
of Target Canada.[1] Can't belive it isn't mentioned here.

1: [https://www.canadianbusiness.com/the-last-days-of-target-
can...](https://www.canadianbusiness.com/the-last-days-of-target-canada/)

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cdcarter
As good of a time as any to remind people of Moonpig:
[https://blog.plover.com/prog/Moonpig.html](https://blog.plover.com/prog/Moonpig.html).

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manicdee
Note to self: in this article, “ERP” means “Enterprise a Resource Planning”
but uses it as a synonym for “SAP”. There was no Erotic Role Play involved.

One thing that rings true in both worlds is that any system should be exactly
as large and complicated as it absolutely needs to be, but no more.

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cpeterso
The article's actual title is "sMistakes [sic] Were Made". I can't tell if it
is trying to be ironic or if a mistake was made. The article's URL has no
extra s: "mistakes-were-made".

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jotakami
I don’t think there’s anything special or unique about ERP screws ups:

(1) ERP projects are typically large by their very nature

(2) SAP projects are always built in waterfall fashion

Seems like Fred Brooks’ original diagnosis would suffice here.

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shaneprrlt
I've done work integrating Shopify with ERP systems and let me tell you, I
still get horrible anxiety whenever I hear the term.

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kens
> Xerox’s infamous decision to abandon the hardware computing industry in 1971

A minor correction: Xerox shut down its XDS computer division and sold it off
to Honeywell in 1975, not 1971.

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BMFXX
As someone in the middle of an ERP integration to SAP. Its painful to say the
least.

