
ICE set up a fake university; 100s enrolled, not realizing it was a sting op - malshe
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/01/31/ice-set-up-fake-university-hundreds-enrolled-not-realizing-it-was-sting-operation/
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notacoward
Might as well say the same thing here that I said on Twitter: this is a waste
of government resources for the sake of being mean. ICE has a charter - to
investigate and infiltrate border-crossing crime groups. Drugs, human
trafficking, money laundering, that kind of thing. This particular op had no
chance of finding anything like that. It was targeted at people who posed no
harm to anybody. Yes, maybe it could have caught a few of the people ICE is
_supposed_ to be looking for, but almost by accident. The price in both
dollars and in liberty was too high for that to be a strategy, and there's no
way that was even in the minds of the people who planned or implemented it.

ICE as it exists should be abolished. Even some ICE old-timers who were doing
its real work say so. A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a
reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current
structure.

~~~
belltaco
Well said. I wish they would actually go after the fraudulent diploma mills
and sham universities that exist only for visas. Why not run sting ops against
them by posing as students instead of against fricking students trying to
maintain immigration status?

I lost it at this:

>The Department of Homeland Security’s list of certified schools where
international students can enroll includes the University of Farmington.

I don't know the specifics but can someone explain why this is not entrapment?

What next, leave warm blankets near the homeless saying they're free to take
and then arrest them for theft?

Also DHS's list of certified schools just lost all its meaning and legitimacy.
If MIT is on that list it might as well be a fraudulent university for all we
know.

This kind of shenanigans will just further plummet the already lower
university enrollment.

~~~
gammateam
> why this is not entrapment

because they are charging the recruiters too! Hahaha this is hysterically bad,
so because government agents werent the ones getting people to do what they
wouldnt have otherwise done

And because deportation isnt a criminal charge

All necessary elements for an entrapment defense

But The recruiters might have a defense and do face criminal charges

~~~
optimuspaul
> And because deportation isnt a criminal charge

but isn't it entrapment of the recruiters?

I don't know, it may be legal but it's not ethical.

~~~
gammateam
Yes there is a possible argument

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zaroth
Terrible headline!

 _Students knew that the scheme was illegal “and that discretion should be
used when discussing the program with others,” prosecutors wrote in their
indictment._

This was not a fake university at all. This was a fake _fake_ university.

The former would be offensive. The latter is a brilliant sting operation I
100% endorse.

~~~
runn1ng
From the description it sounds like entrapment. Which is why I can't believe
it and why I think there is something missing...

~~~
sp332
Notice they didn't charge the 600 students who enrolled. They charged only 8
of those students who recruited lots of other students. That's kinda shady but
it's probably a step removed from entrapment. The article doesn't have
anything from the defense's side though.

~~~
zaroth
But they did arrest and are bringing deportation proceedings against “scores
of students”.

~~~
sp332
Oh I did miss that. That sounds bad considering what was reported last time
they did this. [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-
fake...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-fake-
university-say-they-were-collateral-damage-in-sting-operation.html)

~~~
masonic
The "they" in _that_ article is the Obama administration.

~~~
sp332
So? It's the same agency. I don't know that it changed that much since 2015
when this "new" sting started.

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outsidetheparty
This is confusing.

> eight people who allegedly worked as “recruiters” for the school and
> collectively helped at least 600 students to remain in the country under
> false pretenses now face federal conspiracy charges

If this was a fake university set up by ICE, why are its employees being
charged with conspiracy? (The Detroit News article clarifies that the
recruiters did not know it was a fake university)

And for that matter, how is this whole thing not crystal-clear entrapment, at
least for the "recruiter" employees, if not for the "students" themselves? The
Detroit News article, again, quotes a law professor / prosecutor as saying
"it's not entrapment":

> “The government can put out the bait, but it’s up to the defendants to fall
> for it.”

...but isn't "putting out the bait" what entrapment _is_? (That's a sincere,
not rhetorical question, I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV)

~~~
creaghpatr
It's not entrapment if the crime (being in the country illegally) was already
committed.

~~~
zaroth
No! The crime is not being in the country illegally. The crime is knowingly
enrolling in a fake university and claiming student visa status while taking
no course work.

A sting operation (fake drug buy) is not entrapment. If you walk up to someone
and ask them if they want to buy drugs and they do it’s not entrapment. If you
threaten them to buy your drugs or pretend you are selling them legal drugs
and then hand them something illegal and arrest them, that is entrapment.

~~~
creaghpatr
It's both.

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docdeek
Interesting that the article explains this is the same sort of sting that was
run in NJ under Obama.

Reminds me of those stories of police departments sending 'you won the
lottery' announcements to local criminals who had to appear to collect their
prize in person...whereupon they were promptly arrested.

~~~
tombert
It's fun to go on LinkedIn and look for "University of Northern New Jersey".
There are a lot more people on there then you might think.

I find it amusing; I never finished my degree either but I try and be at least
up-front about it.

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Dayshine
Sorry, I'm a little confused here on the 8 recruiters.

>The federal indictments name eight people in eight states who allegedly
worked as recruiters for the school. All have been arrested and charged with
conspiracy to commit visa fraud and harboring aliens for profit. They face a
maximum sentence of five years in prison.

So ICE employed recruiters, and is now prosecuting them for doing what they
were told? A law enforcement agency hired people, required them to break the
law (presumably under threat of dismissal), and then intends to jail them for
it?

~~~
humantiy
>So ICE employed recruiters

The article looks to have made it sound like ICE employed them, but I don't
believe that is the case. It seems more likely they (the recruiters) were
acting independently getting international students to transfer to the fake
school knowing it wasn't a legit school (hence the "pay to stay" statement)
and helping them with that process while unaware it was actually setup by ICE.

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sct202
These set-up stings always throw me off a little bit. It's like sure these
people are breaking the law, that's clearly wrong. But shouldn't we be fixing
the system that isn't good enough to catch fake transcripts and fake schools
being submitted, or were any visa applications for this school accepted for
the sake of letting ICE catch a few fake students.

~~~
humantiy
That's basically what they did here since "the federal indictments name eight
people in eight states who allegedly were students at the school and recruited
additional students to enroll." Those were the people who were allegedly
helping these people fake the transcripts to commit this fraud.

------
trothamel
I am quite disappointed that they didn't name the place Winston University:
[https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-
univer...](https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-
university/n9203)

------
TorKlingberg
How is this not entrapment? Yes, the students knowingly signed up for a fake
university and used it for visa application, but the fake university only
existed because the government set it up.

If people applying for student visas for fake universities is a real problem,
why not just compare their applications with a list of real universities?

Especially putting the fake uni on DHS’s list of certified schools. Is there a
problem of fake unis getting on DHS's list? Otherwise the crime they committed
(applying for a visa for a fake university certified by the DHS) would have
been literally impossible if DHS/ICE didn't intentionally certify a fake uni.

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Rambunctious45
If the goal of your organization is "to investigate illegal movement of people
and goods" (on ICE's website), I would think this would be a safe and
effective way to do it.

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jstanley
[https://outline.com/LnvaMj](https://outline.com/LnvaMj)

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onetimemanytime
Trying to be cute, get press and promoted? ICE and everyone knows damn well
where "illegals" are working. No need to spend money on such elaborate ruses
to find them.

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danpalmer
Is entrapment not illegal in the US?

~~~
NotANaN
The law makes a clear distinction between entrapment and opportunity.

Setting up a "honeypot" is not entrapment.

That's not to say that this was anything other than a waste of time and
resources, and a textbook example of what happens when a law enforcement
agency is unleashed from regulation.

~~~
danpalmer
Thanks for the explanation, I hadn't thought about that difference, makes
sense.

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snvzz
Paywall warning.

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jwr
This makes no sense. If any of the students who enrolled there were illegal
immigrants, they should be granted green cards instantly. These are the people
who want to learn, work, and better themselves: a clear net benefit to
society.

[I'm purposefully avoiding the topic of ICE, ethics, and a number of other
things here: just wanted to make one point]

~~~
xamuel
Apparently the university had no real classes or campus, so any students who
continued to use it to maintain their visa after discovering as much, are
clearly not "people who want to learn, work, and better themselves".

