
Ask HN: How do people verify time put in by contractors? - prats226
I have seen a lot of contractors eg designers, consultants post hourly rates for work. I am wondering how do people measure how many hours they actually put in. Is it based on trust, predecided before work, measured in some way?
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unleashit
I've done contracting work off and on for 20 years. The day some sort of
forced surveillance or micromanagement of pee breaks becomes impossible to
avoid, will be before the day I stop doing contract work.

Trust works both ways. As a contractor, I have to go "way" out on a limb to
trust you. Trust you to pay me, trust you to pay on time (I'm not a large
vendor with multiple accounts to fall back on for cash flow), trust you to
make decisions and supply content/assets on schedule, trust that you won't end
up crazy and hard to work with, etc., etc.

If you can't trust me, why should I trust you?

That said, it's very easy. If the work gets done and as expected, you did
well.

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chatmasta
You stop micromanaging. Hire people you trust, fire people you don’t.

There are plenty of time tracking programs. Most have an interface where the
worker stops and starts a timer, which creates data that feeds into time
sheets. I’ve personally used TopTracker from TopTal.

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BjoernKW
Unfortunately, clients and contractors alike for the most part still seem to
insist on continuing the fallacy that is hourly payment.

While it may appear to be the obvious and "safe" thing to do because it seems
measurable - and because "everybody" does it - it's measuring the wrong thing
entirely.

Neither the client nor the contractor are actually interested in time wasted
but that's essentially what you get if you bill by the time that went into
creating some sort of output.

With time-based billing the contractor has the perverse incentive to spend
more time, rather than becoming better and more efficient at what she does
(which in turn would benefit the client as well because becoming better means
being able to deliver higher quality work in less time).

The client on the other hand has an equally perverse incentive to reduce the
hours that go into achieving a result, rather than putting emphasis on the
agreed upon outcome.

Therefore I suggest to stop obsessing about time or trying to verify
timesheets and rather focus on the outcome:

What's the desired outcome?

What's that outcome worth to the client? What value does that outcome create?

Can the contractor put a price tag on that outcome at which there's both a net
benefit to the client and profit for the contractor?

Admittedly, that's much easier said than done, which is why many contractors
and client still fall back to the "safe" default of billing by the hour. In
that case, both parties involved usually rely on experience, trust and
business ethics. You can't build a sustainable business by fleecing or
cheating your clients and you can't build a successful client-supplier
relationship on distrust either.

Still, in order to become better at measuring outcomes rather than time wasted
we need to start thinking in terms of outcomes in the first place.

~~~
Spooky23
That makes sense conceptually, but it’s effectively flat rate billing for a
deliverable. The problem with that is that contracting isn’t high margin, and
the contractor is absorbing a lot of risk, and doesn’t give the customer an
incentive to deliver their obligations. If the contractor is smart, that risk
is built into the rate.

Hourly billing isn’t an issue, poor governance is. Few contractors will
actively try to feather their beds, as their reputation will suffer.

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whb07
Hire a designer based on the thing you want rather than the hours for the
thing you want.

Lets say you want a pizza, and contact your favorite pizza place for it. Does
it matter how long it took to make ? Or does it matter that you get a good
pizza in a timely fashion? Would you be offended if the pizza came faster than
it should?

If this holds true for a pizza, why would it not hold true for any other
service/good ?

~~~
stadeschuldt
I like the analogy. But I guess the "concept" of a pizza is easier to grasp.
Usually, you hire a contractor because you want a highly complex solution and
most of the times the expectation, especially from a non-tech savvy person, is
not in sync of what the developer estimates.

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richardknop
I am a contractor living in London, UK. Here contracts in IT/development are
always based on daily rates. Time put in by contractors is not being verified
other than number of days you put into the timesheet matches number of days
you were in the office (so people don't bill for days off etc).

It's basically based on trust just like with regular employees. If you are not
performing well, your contract probably won't be extended. Plus as a
contractor you can just be let go with a week of notice.

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cerberusss
What is your role here? Are you a manager looking to extend his team? Or
someone from HR? Or a developer looking for a partner? Do you have your own
office? It would help to clarify these matters, because tips may vary.

For instance if you work closely with people, then you definitely get a
feeling for their productivity. If you’re not technical, you don’t have access
to the source code repository. If you don’t have your own office, you can’t
check people coming in on camera. That sort of stuff.

~~~
prats226
None. I just got curious about it. For my startup, we have full time employees
on board.

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Spooky23
Trust, but verify.

Usually I’ve used timesheets with an assigned supervisor signing off on the
time worked within a week. If there are performance problems, you can audit
the timesheets. The biggest problem that I’ve run into in 20 years travel
expenses, and as a result I always push to incorporate those expenses in the
rate.

I’ve known people who have required contractors to track time in 6 minute
increments.

If I were king, I would prefer day rates to avoid silly conflicts. Alas, I am
not.

~~~
burntoutfire
Interestingly, almost all contracts in the UK are based on day rates. Nowhere
in the contract is it stated how many hours per day you should work. In
practice, since contracting is just a scheme to pay less taxes (compared to
perm. employment), contractors are expected to sit in an office for 8 hours.

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raztogt21
I recently moved to a remote contractor position. As my own decision, I use
Toggl to track my time worked on each component. This is not required, but I
like to ease the submission of my timesheets and to know when to stop working
each day.

You want to develop a transparent relationship. Our job is complex enough to
waste time on being micromanaged and surveilled.

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muzani
It doesn't really matter. What matters is you put in $1,000, but are happy
with the output. Some contractors will charge for their lunch hours or YouTube
breaks, but less per hour. Some don't count distracted minutes. Everyone is a
little different.

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flatfilefan
Contractors may maintain and submit detailed Timesheets.

