
Penguicon has lost its way - smacktoward
http://lists.penguicon.org/pipermail/penguicon-general-penguicon.org/2017-May/000135.html
======
colordrops
This post resonates strongly with me. I would consider myself a far-left
progressive, supporting single payer health care, free schooling, absolute
equal rights for all types of people, breaking up banks, heavy taxes on the
rich, complete drug legalization, sane immigration laws etc.

And yet, I find myself attacked regularly and called alt-right or a Trump
supporter, which is absurd to me. It's nearly impossible to go into depth and
have nuanced discussion about sensitive topics even with people who would
probably agree with you if they were just willing to listen. Many people get
completely tripped up and misunderstand thought experiments, hypothetical
situations, playing devil's advocate, considering whether the "opposition"
could perhaps be right on anything at all, or meta-discussion and semantics.
Like revolutionary China or McCarthy era USA, you say exactly what they want
you to say, or you are a reactionary fascist.

What I've found is that the liberal base has become so polarized and uniform
that any slight deviation from the narrative leads to accusation, labeling,
and insults. It's like the left has acquired and autoimmune disorder and is
attacking itself.

~~~
jimktrains2
> This post resonates strongly with me. I would consider myself a far-left
> progressive, supporting single payer health care, free schooling, absolute
> equal rights for all types of people, breaking up banks, heavy taxes on the
> rich, complete drug legalization, sane immigration laws etc.

Ditto.

>It's nearly impossible to go into depth and have nuanced discussion about
sensitive topics even with people who would probably agree with you if they
were just willing to listen.

I've left a local tech channel because of this. As soon as a topic takes a
serious bent and someone is upset, everyone tries to change the topic. I left
when I got a 24hr ban for trying to understand why a discussion of gun laws
was "keeping ladies away and making the ones here uncomfortable" and just
wouldn't be satisfied with a non-answer because in Pittsburgh, it's almost
50/50 in terms of gender and gun ownership. I didn't respect that person's
feelings, I was told. They derailed a nice conversation and offered no
understand. I wasn't the only person left confused.

"I'm sorry, I don't like gun discussion for personal reasons" is all they
needed to say, but no, it was "another" example (which they couldn't provide
any others) of male culture (note most of my friends who are the biggest gun
nerds are female) pushing ladies away.

Another time I had people get upset because I mentioned that certain hiring
practices that are discriminatory to women (because they stereotypically do
the housework) are also are discriminatory to men who take part in their
household. I wasn't trying to lessen the issues of women in tech, just adding
my personal frustration and that I can relate. But no, I got reamed by
everyone.

> What I've found is that the liberal base has become so polarized and uniform
> that any slight deviation from the narrative leads to accusation, labeling,
> and insults. It's like the left has acquired and autoimmune disorder and is
> attacking itself.

Exactly, it's extremely frustrated, especially when I'm _agreeing_ with these
people 99% of the time.

------
brohoolio
One of Tron guy's complaints about penguicon was the code of conduct. If you
read the code you'll see it's very reasonable. It asks folks to respect each
other and if there is a disagreement talk it out. If it can't be resolved
escalate. If you commit harassment the con reserves the right to kick you out.

Seems reasonable. You might think you can go back to the old days without a
code of conduct but with 2000 people attending there will be issues. It's best
to have everything documented and rules in case something goes wrong. That's
why a convention like penguicon keeps going after 15 years.

My friends both liberal and conservative enjoyed the con this year. Both sides
also said fuck these guys, if they can't have a good time at a great
convention which features all sorts of perspectives, then maybe they can't
enjoy themselves anywhere outside of their social bubble.

~~~
gizzlon

        > "if there is a disagreement talk it out. If it can't be resolved escalate."
    

Haven't read it, so maybe I'm being unfair. But why do you need to "talk it
out" ? Can't people just disagree and continue living? And "escalate", what
does that even mean? Do you have an example?

~~~
brohoolio
[https://2017.penguicon.org/code-of-conduct/](https://2017.penguicon.org/code-
of-conduct/)

My example is from the harassment section.

------
djsumdog
It's interesting that I've felt the least welcome in places that are
advertised as tolerant safe spaces. This is especially true when it comes to
performance art such as spoken word poetry. I've been accused of "using words
that weren't yours to use" and after one open-mic, the MC reminded everyone
they reserved the right to "play people off the stage."

Part of being in a society with free speech is listening to ideas you don't
agree with. Being offended is part of growing as a society. It was once
offensive to publish pro-homosexual magazines in Universities. It was once
offensive to say God isn't real.

I highly recommend Brendan O'Neill speech on the Right to Offend. It's
amazing, and you'll notice at the end, there are many who boo and disagree
with him.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA)

~~~
scribu
I agree with you, but I have a comment about the video you linked to.

O'Neill gave several examples of views that in the past were regarded as
"maximally offensive", but they were all _progressive_ \- they advocated for a
new idea, something that was never accepted before in that society.

But are there any examples of _regressive_ views that were initially
considered offensive but later accepted?

~~~
colordrops
Aren't progressive and regressive relative to the norms and morals of a
particular time and community?

~~~
scribu
Yes, and my question doesn't assume universality. I'm asking about views that
were considered regressive or progressive at that particular time, by the
particular people that were advocating for tolerating or for suppressing those
views.

------
jcastro
I used to attend/speak Penguicon regularly but the quality of the content
seems to have been lacking recently, so I was expecting some kind of call to
arms here for helping bring the show back to its roots.

As I think the whole concept of a science fiction and technical conference in
one is just a nice blend of topics.

Instead it's the self proclaimed shaper of "today's opensource culture"
(whatever that means) complaining about bathrooms.

------
dsp1234
There seems to be a complaint about unisex bathrooms, and people who support
and push for the "Contributor Convent", which I hadn't heard of before.

Reviewing it[0], I'm having a hard time figuring out what the complaint is. I
wholly concede that my lack of understanding may be related to my own biases.

But recently there was a conversation that mentioned the ACM code of
conduct[1], and how software engineers should be more aware of the effects of
their code, and to act ethically.

Can someone speak to the differences between the two, and why one would be
looked down on, but the other would be something to strive for?

[0] - [http://contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/](http://contributor-
covenant.org/version/1/4/)

[1] - [http://www.acm.org/about/se-code](http://www.acm.org/about/se-code)

~~~
DanBC
A tiny criticism of the Covenant

> for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, gender
> identity and expression, level of experience, nationality, personal
> appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.

They've made up their own list, and come up with something a bit odd. There's
some overlap (body size is covered by personal appearance) and some gaps (no
mention of neuro diversity, which would seem to be important for that
audience).

------
gizzlon

      > Penguicon is at risk of becoming an environment 
      > that is exclusionary and toxic - ironically, 
      > because it has bent to the demands of people
      > who claim to favor "inclusion" and diversity, but whose   
      > methods are speech policing, 
      > thought policing, and the intimidation 
      > of any who disagree with them
    

I've never even heard of Penguicon, but I feel I seethis _a lot_. People who
preach tolerance the loudest are quite intolerant of radically opposing views.
And the actual tolerant people are those that, for the most part, just shut up
and get on with it.

------
tghw
This post has been flagged with 30 points and 24 comments. Doesn't this just
validate the premise of the post?

~~~
dang
I doubt it. Many users flag these threads because classic flamewars don't
belong on HN. They're tedious and violate the mandate of the site. That's a
different consideration than agreeing or disagreeing with the politics of a
post.

------
skybrian
Kind of an abstract complaint. Maybe some people are uncomfortable, but why?
Needs better "object-level" examples.

~~~
scribu
I think he gives at least one good example:

> I've already been personally accused of promoting "rape culture" because I
> teach women how to shoot and fight hand-to-hand and advocate that they
> should take responsibility for their own safety.

... the assumption being that his accusers are the same type of people that
would demand unisex bathrooms and written codes of conduct.

~~~
greglindahl
Wait, so ESR is offended because people use free speech to disagree with ESR's
opinions?

------
beatpanda
> trumpeting unisex bathrooms is taking a side, implying a public normative
> claim

Yeah, or, it's just making trans people comfortable at the conference in a way
that impedes absolutely nobody from doing anything, other than shouting at
someone for using the 'wrong' bathroom.

Why does this make people so itchy?

~~~
djsumdog
I'm for people using whatever toilet they want, but this is usually beyond
what the organizing comities can do anyway. There are state laws and rules for
the hotel/convention centre that they probably have to abide by. I mean there
is the bigger question of why the hell do we even separate toilets by
male/female to begin with? That's a more anthropological question that we
could debate for hours.

I think the author was just using this as one example, and it's probably not
the best one.

~~~
comex
> I'm for people using whatever toilet they want, but this is usually beyond
> what the organizing comities can do anyway. There are state laws and rules
> for the hotel/convention centre that they probably have to abide by.

I'm not aware of any such laws, and I don't see any indication that the
_convention center_ was complaining about it - only ESR.

> I mean there is the bigger question of why the hell do we even separate
> toilets by male/female to begin with? That's a more anthropological question
> that we could debate for hours.

Honestly, this is the kind of archaic social convention that I'd expect
"hackers" to be happy to overthrow. To me, gender neutral bathrooms seem like
a great example of the very quote that ESR cites in his complaint:

    
    
        The hacker culture’s norm about inclusion is clear: anybody who
        can pull the freight is welcome, and twitching about things like skin
        color or shape of genitalia or what thing you like to stick into what
        thing is beyond wrong into silly.

~~~
DanBC
>and I don't see any indication that the convention center was complaining
about it - only ESR

The convention wanted gender neutral toilets. The hotel has existing toilets,
and they're not gender neutral (I guess because of urinals and because of bins
/ vending machines for sanitary products, as well as signage) and so they
declined that request.

I agree with you about gender neutral toilets. I don't understand why some
people are so hostile to the idea.

~~~
comex
> The hotel has existing toilets, and they're not gender neutral (I guess
> because of urinals and because of bins / vending machines for sanitary
> products, as well as signage) and so they declined that request.

Ah, my mistake. For reference, not all hosts respond that way: some recent
high-profile conventions have successfully temporarily designated restrooms as
gender neutral, including CCC (hacking conference) last year in Germany and
the Democratic National Convention in the US.

------
johnny22
> Worse, were the unisex bathrooms _intended_ to get in centrist/conservative
> faces, as a kind of hostile virtue signaling?"

It's kinda hard to take the rest even the littlest bit seriously after that.

I think there might be some underlying bit I'm not getting about these claims,
but there's definitely a bit much hyperbole really grasp it.

~~~
jimktrains2
Isn't your reaction to his complaint that switching to unisex restrooms is a
deliberate political signal, and not about welcoming to trans folk part of
what this post is talking about? If we can't discuss how others feel about
this, if the motivation for the switch to unisex bathrooms is an overt
political signal or a genuine one to marginalized groups, are we really
behaving civil? Specifically because bathrooms are something that's banged
into most peoples heads as gendered thing and the opposite sex in them might
make them uncomfortable, for no overtly sexist, homophobic, transphobic, &c
reason; it's something they've been taught very strongly, and transitions do
take time.

Remember, the complaint is not that unisex bathrooms are bad, but that they're
being used as a political signal to tell people who aren't comfortable with
them that they aren't welcome, regardless of the reason for the uncomfort.

------
JoshTriplett
I followed the link, saw the name at the top of the email, and immediately
went "ah, I know where this mail is going". And sure enough, that's where it
went.

Personally, I'd say this is a good sign: if your conference makes people like
ESR and the other posters in the linked thread feel unwelcome and
uncomfortable showing up and bringing the kind of attitudes and behavior that
make other people feel unwelcome, then keep it up, you're on the right track.

~~~
gizzlon
Why? Why is that the right track? Being exposed to people with different views
is healthy, as long as the discussion is fairly civil.

I don't now much about this particular conf or the people, so maybe I'm
misjudging you. But in general I believe many people are offended far to
easily and we give far too much weight to them. Never being offended is not a
human right.

~~~
DanBC
Interesting that you say that on a blog which is mostly someone being offended
at the idea of gender neutral toilets. So offended that he thinks it's a
deliberate ploy to make him annoyed.

~~~
gizzlon
That's not how I read the post. At all. I actually think he has a point, I and
don't care abut the bathrooms. Maybe he should have skipped that example..

