
Inside the world of longsword fighting - benbreen
http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/100000003040466/inside-the-world-of-longsword-fighting.html
======
pluma
Interesting to see HEMA become increasingly popular.

I've done European medieval combat re-enactment for a few years, so I'd like
to expand on that one fighter's comment on the "thee" and "thou" thing.

Generally, in the re-enactment community, there are three different focusses:
one is authenticity, trying to replicate historical costumes, equipment and
trades; another is entertainment of an audience that is rarely familiar with
the subject matter; the third is combat, both as a martial art and as a form
of group sports.

The theatricals that seem to be popular at American "ren faires" and the
medieval markets in various parts of Europe are strictly an expression of that
second focus. Most re-enactors I've met are either into the first or third one
(or a mix thereof).

I see HEMA as a logical evolution of that third focus, though I personally
find its emphasis on duelling and professional competitions (with all the
restrictions that brings) less intriguing.

I guess my point is that you can have medieval combat without the "thee" and
"thou" parts outside of HEMA as well. It's very different from HEMA and
certainly attracts a different kind of people, but it's still an alternative
even if you couldn't care less about the theatrics.

~~~
swimfar
HEMA=Historical European Martial Arts

~~~
pluma
Sorry, I though the term also came up in the video but I may have remembered
that wrong.

------
rickdale
Semi-Related to this is Lars Andersen taking archery to the next level by
using forgotten skills he learned by looking at old art and various texts.
Worth a watch!

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk](https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-
ly9tQGk)

~~~
agumonkey
I wish he'd share his knowledge with someone of better physical shape, such as
:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8b1zWOgOKA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8b1zWOgOKA)
[https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchFreerunFamily/videos](https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchFreerunFamily/videos)

------
flexie
Looks like great fun!

I doubt it has close resemblance with medieval long sword fighting, though :-)

It must have been a lot slower fighting in leather, chainmail or plate armor
than in this ultra light modern equipment.

And, I assume a medieval fighter would take far smaller chances than these
modern hobbyists knowing a counter blow could be (almost surely would be)
fatal.

Also, these guys fight one on one. But in a war you would have to guard
yourself from blows and cuts not just from one enemy but from a crowd of enemy
soldiers, left and right.

The guy you were fighting might be using a sword or he might have another
weapon. Maybe he was using a shield and you didn't. And if he had a sword, he
might not have read the memo that it should be max 4 feet long.

And fighting on some uneven, damp meadow he might be fighting uphill or
downhill, and just keeping ones balance when striking or blocking would be
hard compared to fighting indoor on a floor.

~~~
Sander_Marechal
I'm a HEMA practitioner from The Netherlands

> I doubt it has close resemblance with medieval long sword fighting, though
> :-)

It does actually resemble it very much, but medieval longsword fighting was
probably very different than what you _think_ it was.

> It must have been a lot slower fighting in leather, chainmail or plate armor
> than in this ultra light modern equipment.

Not really. The main difference is visibility. First, the modern HEMA
equipment is a lot heavier than e.g. standard fencing gear. It's a lot thicker
(like those dog attack suits) and often have steel or kevlar plates in the
inside. Second, medieval gear wasn't all that heavy. I have a full suit of
maille (as it's really called) and it weighs less than 15 kilos, helmet
included. A full steel plate armour shouldn't weight more than 25 kilos.
That's less than modern soldiers have to carry around on the battlefield.

The biggest difference is that a fencing mask gives you better visibility than
a historical closed helmet.

> these guys fight one on one

That's what happened in medieval times too most often. The original medieval
books were written mostly for one-on-one combat, either for dueling or trial-
by-sword. That happened a lot more than being caught in a war on a
battlefield. Swords have little use on a medieval battlefield anyway. You use
different weapons and tactics.

> And fighting on some uneven, damp meadow [...] would be hard compared to
> fighting indoor on a floor.

My HEMA group trains for this as well, and I suspect many other groups too. It
is also mentioned in the medieval books. I have trained in loose sand, in the
surf on a beach, in deep snow, etc. It's true that competitions are usually
held indoors on an even ground though.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Swords have little use on a medieval battlefield anyway. You use different
weapons and tactics._

Just curious - could you explain this in a bit more detail? It's surprising.

~~~
mcv
He puts it a bit too general, but against full plate armour, swords are nearly
useless. In the late Middle Ages, when plate armour became increasingly
common, people started using weapons with better armour-piercing capabilities,
like maces, warhammers and various polearms.

Swords are great against lightly armoured and unarmoured targets, like
peasants, archers and civilians. Swords remained in use as a side arm and
civilian weapon, and a popular duelling weapon, which may also be why so many
medieval manuscripts are about one-on-one fights. Carrying a polearm with you
everywhere you go is a lot more cumbersome than having a sword hanging on your
belt.

But swords were absolutely used on the battlefield. Romans and vikings used
them a lot. Knights had them of course, and even they became increasingly less
useful against other knights, they often didn't really want to kill each other
anyway. Pikemen generally had a short sword as backup weapon (the Katzbalger),
and there's of course the massive two-handed swords used by Landsknechts to
break up pike formations (supposedly; nobody knows for sure). But again
knights in plate armour, you'd better get something that can knock holes in
it. If you want to kill him, that it.

You might compare the sword to a pistol. You don't usually send a mass of
soldiers into battle with just a pistol; you give them assault rifles (or
polearms). But officers and civilians tend to carry a pistol, and maybe some
soldiers have one for backup.

~~~
MiddleEndian
>they often didn't really want to kill each other anyway

Can you elaborate on this? What were they doing with swords instead?

~~~
cbp
They killed peasants and mercenaries instead. The knights they took hostage
for ransom.

------
benbreen
The book illustration/art history blog BibliOdyssey has some great scans of a
16th century German longsword fighting manual called Der Fechtbuch that
features some of the moves seen in this video. As well as some that really
surprised me, like the opening illustration of two combatants fighting with
reversed swords (hilt to hilt rather than blade to blade) which was apparently
an actual technique used for bludgeoning.

[http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2012/06/der-
fechtkampf.html](http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2012/06/der-fechtkampf.html)

~~~
nacho_weekend
I remember an old post on /r/askhistorians about medieval fighting, and this
article was referenced. There was even a video of two re-enactors emulating
the style. It was vastly different than everything I'd come to expect from
films, but it makes more sense when you think about it. Armor could be
extremely effective for taking a direct sword hit, so the strategy was to
almost wrestle your opponent up close and wedge the blade in between the
plates, using both hands as leverage to slice.

------
bane
If anybody is interested, with the revival of HEMA, we're starting to end up
with longsword players who are getting up there with good Kendo players.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw)

~~~
machinshin_
damn. both of those guys are really good

------
hookey
Inside the world of having a video player that doesn't let you adjust the
volume.

~~~
CurrentB
Yeah that is extremely annoying.

------
kbenson
The documentary "Reclaiming the Blade" is about the semi-lost art of medieval
and renaissance sword fighting, and is quite good. If this topic is even
slightly interesting, you'll probably find the documentary entertaining.

------
brosky117
I'm not the type to be into this kind of thing but that slow-motion kill was
sick! He/She caught their opponent wide open AND had the presence of mind to
instantly defend. That was legit.

~~~
gknoy
That slow-motion was pretty awesome, I agree. You could tell that the fencer
had practiced that to where retreating into a defensive guard was likely
instinctice. :)

When you look at many of the plates from earlier fencing manuals, such as
those of Fabris or Capo Ferro (Italian fencers from the 1600s), many of the
prime guards and ways you strike are done so that you are parrying in measure
-- your blade and hilt are in a position that prevents the opponent's sword
from connecting with your body. Many similar ideas are present in other
swordmasters' treatises.

Disclaimer: I'm a terrible fencer, but several of my friends are up to their
eyeballs in historican fencing, so when I go home on holiday, I get an earfull
of it. ;)

------
jkot
Sword fighting and middle age reenactment is quite big in Germany and Central
Europe.

~~~
probably_wrong
Interesting. Do you have any idea about where should I start looking? I'm in
Germany now, and this looks fairly interesting.

~~~
elbows
The HEMA Alliance has a club finder which lists groups all over the US and
Europe:
[http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=748](http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=748)

------
JamesHester
Hi All,

    
    
       Fascinating to see this matter being discussed on here. 
    
       By way of putting my cards on the table, I am a former curator from the Royal Armouries in England (most recently taking care of the RA collection at the Tower of London). I now live in Boston where I founded The School of Mars, teaching arming sword inspired from a variety of early manuals.
    
       A lot of the myths seem to have been adequately busted in this thread, for which I am thankful. But just to recap.
    

\- Actual swordplay, even in armour, was much faster than we tend to give it
credit for. The weapons were properly designed (longswords usually no more
than 3lbs. and balanced such that the blade's weight was compensated for by a
heavy pommel), allowing them to fly in the hands of someone trained to use
them. The armour, too, was custom made for each person, fitting them like a
second skin, allowing for a wide range of movement and for the weight (usually
45-60lbs for a battle harness) to be spread throughout the whole body rather
than being carried in one or two places. Some of our interpreters would
demonstrate this by doing somersaults, cartwheels, and even yoga poses in
their harness.

\- Yes, battlefield combat is a very different game from tournament style 'one
on one' combat. Some techniques are more suited to one than the other.
However, many of the techniques in the manuals are usable in both situations,
and it is more a matter of the mindset and application of the individual. I
agree that most of the HEMA community trains for tournament style combat,
because this is mainly the way in which techniques are demonstrated and used
in competition. It would be very interesting indeed for training regimes to
work out systems of teaching how to apply these techniques to a battle
environment.

\- Categorizing HEMA is going to depend largely on what your intentions are in
studying it. If you want to attempt to accurately re-create the style of
fighting from a particular master/manual, and restrict your research/practice
to just the contents of said manual and any contextualising resources, then
you are more in the realm of re-enactment. I am not yet convinced that the
full realization of this is possible, given that we are dealing with texts of
variable clarity and no living individuals from an unbroken lineage to verify
our theories. That is not to say that there isn't a martial/competitive aspect
to this particular type of re-enactment, but in this case one is dealing with
a fundamentally 'dead' style, with a set end date and a finite number of
techniques, unable to change after its period.

\- To make it a martial art requires that we allow the style to be organic, to
grow with modern practitioners and teachers as everyone discovers variations
of the style that suits them (much like the masters did themselves). This is
the idea that I am attempting to bring about with School of Mars. The manuals
form the foundation of the teachings, but as new insights from modern
practitioners, who may have been exposed to other styles etc., the techniques
adapt, or have new techniques or applications added on. We today have the
benefit of access to a rich martial heritage that spans the globe, which the
early masters did not. To some the thought of mingling them could be seen as
heresy, but in my opinion doing so is simply part of reviving the martial arts
of Europe in a modern setting. I suspect that the early masters would have
leapt upon the opportunity to gain inspiration from other martial styles had
they the ability.

/rant. :-)

~~~
pluma
About the battlefield combat: I'm not sure HEMA can really explore battlefield
combat at scale, at least not with very strict minimum requirements on armour.

HEMA tries to follow the authentic fighting styles very closely and therefore
places a lot of emphasis on killing/disarming blows, including stabs to the
head (at eye level) or throat and slashes at the hands. This works with
sufficient protective gear under controlled conditions.

Battlefield scenarios as seen in re-enactment are far more chaotic. It works
because the ruleset is the spectral opposite of HEMA: no stabs to the head, no
blows to the hands. Basically medieval combat without the "fun parts".

I don't think it'd be possible to create that kind of environment with a HEMA
ruleset without making a whole lot more dangerous and accident prone.

OTOH battlefield re-enactment can frequently get away with barely any armour
at all (because the rules emphasize safe techniques) while plated gambesons
and face guards seem to be the norm in most of HEMA.

Meh. What do I know anyway.

------
ktzar
I'd start with a "You fight like a dairy farmer"

~~~
simi_
Hehe.

> How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

All of them (spoilers!):
[http://www.worldofmi.com/gamehelp/insults/mi1.php](http://www.worldofmi.com/gamehelp/insults/mi1.php)

------
flarg
This looks so great: I've been looking for a martial art to supplement my
daily workout and give me some strength and agility - and some fun - this
seems a lot more exciting than the Krav Maga classes I was looking at. Anyone
know if there's a good place in the UK to do this?

------
pmlnr
European here. We've been doing this for a while.

------
MagaManGo
This is so freaking cool. They are much faster with the sword attacks than I
would have imagined.

------
enjo
Cool! I was watching "Big Giant Swords" on the Discovery channel (a fantastic
show) and they touched on competitive sword fighting last week. After seeing
this, the whole thing makes a lot more sense.

------
pakled_engineer
If you live in Vancouver there actually is a srs swordfighting school
[http://www.academieduello.com/](http://www.academieduello.com/)

------
daktanis
Hmm....may have to find somewhere to do this in Orlando.

------
wtbob
Sadly, it doesn't play in Chrome on Linux.

------
IndianAstronaut
I think I found my new hobby.

------
jafaku
The girl says "size shouldn't matter". Yeah right, because you are fighting
for points.

~~~
jafaku
Why the downvotes? This is swords and armours, not guns. Strength matters a
lot. Since apparently you already live in fantasy land, why don't you try
fighting "The Mountain"? Then tell me if size doesn't matter.

~~~
jessaustin
Have you actually trained in any of the sword disciplines? If you do, you'll
find that technique, speed, grace, and mental toughness are more important
than size or strength. _Ceteris paribus_ , of course, size and strength are
advantages, but you'll find that _ceteris_ are rarely _paribus_. Swords are
tools, and human beings using tools are capable of surprising things.

I guarantee you, if you've played kendo at any decent dojo, you've had your
ass kicked by an unassuming Japanese lady, or possibly her granddaughter. Even
if you are like a Mountain, whatever that's supposed to mean.

~~~
jafaku
I don't want to be a dick, but have you actually had a real sword fight? Have
you pierced someone's armor and make him bleed? Of course you haven't.

The Mountain is a fictitious character from the popular TV series Game of
Thrones. He uses a huge sword that you wouldn't be able to stop the same way
you stop your fake swords brandished by girls. And I only dared to use him as
an example because all of this is basically just that: a game, a fantasy.

If I had to pick a guardian, I would choose a newbie sword man from the middle
ages over your instructor (who has never had a real fight) any day.

If you think Kendo is real, see what the guys from Iaido have to say about
them: When they pick a real sword, they simply can't handle the weight, and
the ones that can don't know how to actually cut stuff, because all they have
learned is to win points in a game similar to tag.

~~~
jessaustin
Do me a favor and figure out what you're complaining about. Is it that the
interviewed HEMA "girl" enjoys the fact that size is less important in her
sport than in some other sports? Is it that her sport is not as "real" as your
favorite HBO program? Are you instead complaining about getting downvoted for
those obnoxious opinions? Maybe you don't like my opinions about sports I've
played? Perhaps you'd like to put some words into my mouth? Oh, now I see,
you're an iaido fan. After all the other stuff you've said, that's just cute.

~~~
jafaku
> Is it that the interviewed HEMA "girl" enjoys the fact that size is less
> important in her sport than in some other sports?

With a very serious face she said exactly this: "It's a serious martial art".
Then the narrator says she's already a champion (with just 3 years of
training? while studying/working as an engineer? lol) that fights opponents
twice her size. And then she goes on with her fantasy: "It's hard for me to
fight small people because I'm SO used to fighting with people taller than me
or larger than me" (yeah right, that totally makes sense, lol). And _then_
(some context huh?) she says that size shouldn't matter. I have seen this sort
of delusion in many activities, including but not limited to religion and
"martial arts". And let me tell you, it's all fun and games until someone
crashes against reality.

> Is it that her sport is not as "real" as your favorite HBO program?

I specifically said both are fantasy. But it's hilarious that you out of all
the people try to mock me for this. By the way, I'm pretty sure the actor who
plays the Mountain got more training than you. I would bet my life-savings to
him in a fight where he used only armour (no sword) versus you or your
"champion" with armour and a real sword. It will probably end like this:

[http://youtu.be/pRY4Mpmfk1o?t=3m19s](http://youtu.be/pRY4Mpmfk1o?t=3m19s)

That's not the Mountain by the way. Check him out: [http://media.joe.ie/wp-
content/uploads/2014/02/gameofthrones...](http://media.joe.ie/wp-
content/uploads/2014/02/gameofthronesmountain1.jpg) . But don't worry. What
does it matter that his arm is the size of your torso? You are very fast and
skilled. It's not like he wouldn't cut you in half with a single swing, right?
Because size doesn't matter.

> Oh, now I see, you're an iaido fan.

No, you don't see ;), because I'm not a Iaido fan. In fact I've never even
tried it.

> After all the other stuff you've said, that's just cute.

Is it. I think you are cute.

If it was seen just as a sport or a game, kind of like cosplay, I wouldn't
mind. But the girl in the video truly believes she's a warrior and that can't
end well.

~~~
pluma
> But the girl in the video truly believes she's a warrior and that can't end
> well.

Does she? For all one can tell she seems to believe she knows what she's doing
when she's using a sword in HEMA. Does an experienced kendo, aikido,
taekwondo, <insert established MA here> fighter think of himself as a
"warrior"?

I'd sure hope not. In fact I'd hope nobody today really thinks of himself as a
"warrior". A soldier maybe, but even then it seems a bit antiquated and out of
place. And worrying, if they would carry that notion over into their civil
life.

If you're trained to disarm actual attackers in actual violent conflicts in
actual life-or-death scenarios (not staged fights where both fighters use a
formal style and fight with any kind of ruleset), maybe it's somewhat
understandable you'd think of yourself as a warrior. But that is no more
applicable to her than it is to a participant in any other martial art.

You seem to project some kind of anachronistic grandeur onto the notion of
being a _real_ "warrior". It's a sport. Like the vast majority of martial arts
today already are.

You're right, an HEMA "world champion" (or whatever) likely couldn't fight
their way out of a wet paper bag in a realistic life-or-death situation. But
that holds true for any martial art taught as a sport.

And unless your day job (or geographical circumstance) involves an extremely
high chance of getting into those situations, there's no reason this should
matter. And if you do have a high chance of getting in those situations, why
the fuck would you care about what kinds of martial arts are performed as a
sport?

Aside: in any HEMA fight I would rather bet my money on the one with the
better reflexes and legwork. And although I've seen big guys with almost
feline grace, generally big blokes tend to overvalue their size/strength
advantage and underestimate the importance of speed and balance. And I'm not
sure I'd ever bet any amount of money on a paid actor who has been taught what
kind of moves look good to a television audience. We're talking about free
fighting, not choreography here.

~~~
jafaku
That "paid actor" has a Strongman career. See his personal records:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafth%C3%B3r_J%C3%BAl%C3%ADus_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafth%C3%B3r_J%C3%BAl%C3%ADus_Bj%C3%B6rnsson#Personal_records)

If you think your "leg work" can save you from someone who can lift 400+ Kg,
you live in fantasy land. Unless you mean you will run like hell.

There is a reason why contact sports like Box or MMA have weight categories.
Size matters! And swords aren't such good weapons that they remove the
strength factor. If we were talking about guns, or even bows, then sure,
dexterity beats everything else. But in close combat you don't want to fight
someone who can literally crush your body with his bare hands.

Edit: A picture with Arnold, for comparison:

[http://www.dv.is/media/cache/0c/10/0c10973a39a53647327481c60...](http://www.dv.is/media/cache/0c/10/0c10973a39a53647327481c607be9889.jpg)

And Arnold didn't focus on strength when he trained, but this man did. Imagine
that.

------
moron4hire
Someone should use their clout within the sci-fi and geek worlds to run a
kickstarter for a video game based on realistic sword fighting, then
completely drop the ball!

~~~
pluma
Too soon, mate. Too soon.

I mean, I still have the t-shirt.

------
jcburns
...and it's a video. I look to the NYT for words on a page...I wish they
wouldn't waste resources on stuff like this just for the "oh, it's cool"
factor.

~~~
samspot
Only 26 words down is this link:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/sports/for-longsword-a-
com...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/sports/for-longsword-a-comeback-
ages-in-the-making.html?_r=0)

------
Mithaldu
"it's a serious martial art"

It may be a serious, and quite cool, sport. But i don't think something that
has zero real world practicability or application falls under the banner of a
"martial art".

~~~
medecau
It's sitting on the top of the front page with 28 points. I've got no idea why
I keep coming to HN looking for hacker news.

~~~
boothead
Well this is closer to the original meaning of "hacking" I guess :-)

~~~
logfromblammo
It is very "close to the metal".

~~~
nathan_long
It involves a lot of low-latency pings.

