
Ask HN: Should I leave finance to become a developer? - johnnycash
I&#x27;ve been thinking about this for years, and wish I&#x27;d asked this earlier. Here is my rationale:<p>--Work with people who have more similar personalities&#x2F;outside interests&#x2F;sense of humor as me<p>--Sick of envying developers have fun, make cool shit, and make money<p>Here are some details:<p>--I work as a quant doing research at a firm on wall street (recently got masters in financial engineering). I thought going into finance my salary would surpass ~200k after a few years, and as a developer, it would max out around that level. But, my salary now is about 100k (w&#x2F; 25k bonus) and I feel like I could be making way more as a developer right now...and I&#x27;m always thinking &quot;that could be me&quot; about my developer friends.<p>--Whatever I need to get done, I kludge away (usually in Python, R, or C&#x2F;C++&#x2F;C#) until it works; I have no concept of elegance in this context. Also, I&#x27;m usually the only one writing the programs--I&#x27;ve never worked in a collaborative development environment, since I mainly do research. I&#x27;m not sure how to get from this level to being a developer?<p>--I write programs to analyze data, which frequently involve machine learning&#x2F;AI algorithms. Are companies looking for this in a web developer? Or should I try to tailor my skills more towards a data science position? Or is there a path you would recommend particularly for someone with this skill set?<p>--I want to stay in NYC<p>What I&#x27;m hoping to get out of asking this question on HN is some guidance to help me realize if I&#x27;m on the right track, or if I should completely change my life and go down an entirely different career path as a dev. I&#x27;m pretty lost when it comes to the tech industry right now and am glad I started reaching out for help. Any advice you could give from your experience in this industry would mean a great deal to me.
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vijucat
IMHO, not only is this a "grass is greener on the other side" situation, it is
a drastic abandonment of accumulated potential energy (your degree + industry
experience).

You would be abandoning a true niche skillset: there are some positions that
are open only to people with an MS in FE plus C++ plus x years of industry
experience plus a cogent answer to "What happens when there is a race
condition between an Order Cancel Request and Executions? What FIX tags are
involved? Give me an example". Many people would seriously envy you if you
told them what you do.

BTW, many startups (not all) are all about the kludge : they are always in a
time crunch and that's why languages that allow rapid iteration such as Ruby
or JavaScript (quick wins, but long-term technical debt accumulation) win out
over the more sturdy-but-time-consuming enterprise choices such as Java or
C++. If your startup may not even exist 3 months after inception, it makes
sense to rapidly discover if we can even get customer no. 1. For Goldman Sachs
or other big bank with deep pockets, they can afford to allow you time to do
things the right way from day one.

For some people, kludging is a personal habit. It is a dangerous one. One
suggestion I have is to spend at least an hour daily on reading.

The way I see it, you only need a change of job to a better pay and more
respect than $125k in NYC. You may be happy after that + finding more like-
minded friends outside work? (maybe attend some tech meetups on meetup.com in
NYC?) If your heart strings still tug at you, you can always consider
switching over :-)

I used to work in the financial industry and switched over to a startup
recently, but it was a decision that made sense for ME, not necessarily
others. If you want to talk to me, please don't hesitate to contact.

~~~
johnnycash
Hi vijucat, thanks for your response. I think you're right that if I left my
current industry, I would feel like I wasted the time I put into getting into
finance. That's what's holding me back.

I actually have no idea how to answer your race condition question because I'm
not involved in parsing the FIX logs. I could probably start doing this kind
of thing at my current job though. Are firms actively looking for people with
these kinds of skills?

Also, I'm pretty opposed to working at a bank because of their hierarchy,
culture, and morals. Knowing this, would you still recommend I stay in
finance? (Pauses for laughter to subside). If you're wondering why I got into
finance in the first place, it's because I wanted to work for buy-side firms,
and wanted a lucrative job, and was a little naive. I fell into the sell-side,
but work at a company much smaller than a bank.

Finally, you mentioned I'm underpaid--what do you recommend I ask for in terms
of a raise, and after how many months would it be appropriate? I'm a few
months in and this is my first job ever because I did the master's right after
my bachelors.

~~~
vijucat
I just gave the FIX log example because that's what I am familiar with, that's
all. :-)

> Are firms actively looking for people with these kinds of skills?

Generally, I used to use efinancialcareers.com and other industry-specific
recruiters to gauge demand. On the flow side / sell-side, unless you have
elevated into a more quant-focused role, the IT folks often end up dealing
with FIX, but I suppose it also depends on which instrument...I was in
equities.

> Finally, you mentioned I'm underpaid--what do you recommend I ask for in
> terms of a raise, and after how many months would it be appropriate? I'm a
> few months in and this is my first job ever because I did the master's right
> after my bachelors.

Honestly, I don't know. I'm in Hong Kong and I don't have a pulse on NYC
salaries right now. I somehow thought you had some years of experience, so the
salary you mentioned may not even be low if this is your first job?

If I was in your situation, I would do a survey among my friends to gauge the
appropriate salary. Be careful about recruiters' opinions, though : it
benefits them to make you feel dissatisfied at your present job, so they may
exaggerate how much you could get if you jumped jobs. If the gap is too much,
I would immediately put in a word in with my manager : "Hey, I was just
talking to my friends and I found out that I started off at the lowest salary
among the bunch. On the average, the difference is $40k or more. Do you think
you can revise my base or bonus at some point in the future?". It is
politically important to put it across as a concern / request, not as an
aggressive stand. If the gap in salary between you and your batchmates at
other places is not that much, you can wait till the year-end / half-year
review...

Plus, there are all the other issues of your employer's brand-name, the kind
of work you do, how nice your colleagues are to you, how nice of a person is
your boss, etc;...All these have tremendous value, too, and employers are
keenly aware of their brand-value as well as whether the work you are being
allowed to do is coveted, and don't hesitate to pay you less than market-rate
if either factor comes into play!

> Knowing this, would you still recommend I stay in finance?

Yes, finance is so large an industry that stereotypes need not apply to you.
For example, Jane Street is much more respectful of good coders / thinkers has
a startup feel to it. You can aspire to join such a small firm rather than
JPM, GS, or other axis-of-evil participants. :-) Or you can join a smaller
buy-side shop, etc;

The top three things I would suggest doing are a) network; need not be
aggressive; just do things you like with other people. Go to an R meetup or
python meetup, for example. Meetups hosted at other firms' offices are a great
way to check them out and get intel on what the industry is like outside your
firm b) identify fields of interest and become good at them; could be tech,
could be particular instruments of trading, etc; c) wait. Wait until the field
and the players become more clear. Wait until you come across a firm or
opportunity that makes you go, "Wow, I'd like to work there / on that!". Then
the energy will come to you naturally. Or maybe you see them all and it
becomes really clear that you don't even want to be in NY?

I think it's great that you posted on HN and asked for advice. It's great that
you acknowledged that you are dissatisfied. The tricky part after seeing a
problem is waiting. :-) The natural tendency is to jump to a solution, and
often, we just simply pick the thing that looks most different from where
we're uncomfortable (startups instead of finance; SV instead of NY, etc;).
Staying with the discomfort till your feelings crystallize more clearly is
probably the most tricky yet important skill for anyone.

------
CyberFonic
So if you were making $200k+ you wouldn't be wanting to be a developer?

In which case, you either don't generate enough value in your current role or
you haven't negotiated your salary effectively. $125k pa does seem low for a
good quant on Wall St. The amount of effort required to be a good, thus
valuable and well paid developer, is considerable. Similar level of effort
invested in your current skillset might see you advance in your present career
track.

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lscore720
Good question - between the financial crisis, regulatory overhaul on Wall
Street, and tech boom, I've run into many people in this situation in recent
years. In NYC, the quant-to-data scientist transition has been the more
seamless one. Alternatively, I've occasionally worked with quants who are
genuinely excited about web development - fortunately, NYC has great options
for learning & networking here.

You provided a decent background, but I don't want speculate and offer
counter-productive advice based on limited information. Depending on your
interests and experience, as well as the the different types of companies &
roles, there is much to consider!

I'm happy to discuss options further - feel free to e-mail me at
brad@tomesei.com.

~~~
CyberFonic
If you ever write a blog post about your perspectives on Wall St, please post
a link here - would love to read it.

------
johnnycash
Thanks everyone for your replies. I think vijucat's phrase "grass is greener"
describes what most of you are saying, and gives me hope to continue with my
current career path.

My performance review is coming up and based on what a lot of you are saying,
I'm underpaid and should ask for a raise. This is my first job (did BS then MS
right after) and I've only been here a few months. Any tips about how much I
should ask for? Based on Glassdoor I'm thinking about asking for 120K + 25K
bonus, but is this still too little?

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MalcolmDiggs
I think there are _great_ and _shitty_ jobs in every industry. Switching to
tech isn't necessarily a silver-bullet, there are more than a few soul-
crushing tech jobs out there (think Office Space), and comparing-yourself with
peers won't stop just because you switch industries. The feeling of needing to
keep-up-with-the-Joneses is a pretty universal phenomenon.

That being said, yes for your skillset you should be able to pull in a
slightly higher salary soon (if not immediately). But I'd be very picky about
what company you switch to. With many startups comes a very large amount of
risk (the bank accounts of many startups will have less than 1% of the funds
of your current employer). The hours will be insane, and it's quite possible
that you'll never actually make any cool shit...or money. But that's all case-
specific. Do your research on the particular organization you're thinking
about joining, and make sure you _love_ the people there, because you're gonna
be spending a lot of time with them.

If you'd like to wade in / test-the-waters, try to freelance on the side for
awhile; or join a startup that isn't looking for a full-time commitment.

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autovis
That's funny, because I'm currently a developer thinking of jumping to finance
for the money. No matter what I do, I will always continue doing development
on my own time in the form of side projects. Today with stuff like Github and
if you have the time, mingling with other developers isn't too hard (if you
don't mind the distance).

~~~
CyberFonic
Whether you work in finance or as a developer, your worth to your employer is
dependent upon the value you bring to your employer. Might be an idea to look
at what you enjoy instead of being fixated on the money.

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dreaminvm
Its ironic that a lot of developers feel the opposite of what the OP is
describing. Developers think wall street pays more and wall street (OP) thinks
developers make "way more".

Like others have already pointed out, OP you seem to be underpaid in NYC in
your position, but I wouldn't rush to switch fields. Stay with what you are
doing and try to identify your value and skillset which you can then use to
negotiate a higher salary.

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pdovy
I think the question you need to ask yourself is what do you actually want to
do?

As someone who works as a developer in the HFT space, I can back up what
others are saying - you could be making more than you are now either as a
quant or a developer (without switching industries, if finance really
interests you).

Do what you think will make you happy in the long run, and then spend the time
to invest in those skills.

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JSeymourATL
Money, People, & The Actual Work involved are the primary drivers influencing
any career move.

Leverage your quant & trading background-- look for developers working on
tools/programs/services for that space. Reach out to them for professional
networking. See if they would be open to sharing their perspective. Linkedin
is a good place to sort profiles.

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tamersalama
short time to read/comment: software developers don't operate in an
idea/knowledge vacuum. Your current profession will be your greatest source of
those ideas - don't abandon it. Work on both.

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panjaro
do you want to manage finance in your life or create softwares ?

