
E-Cigarette Maker Juul Labs Is Raising $1.2B - Emore
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-29/e-cigarette-maker-juul-labs-is-raising-1-2-billion
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gringoDan
I wonder how good it is for public health if Juul is able to grow this market.
Do the health benefits from cigarette smokers switching to e-cigarettes offset
the young people who never would have dreamt of smoking cigarettes heavily,
but regularly use Juul?

I had no idea how pervasive Juul was for college students until my sister told
me that multiple people were "Juul-ing" in all of her classes. Highly
recommend this New Yorker article to understand the cultural phenomenon:
[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/14/the-promise-
of...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/14/the-promise-of-vaping-
and-the-rise-of-juul)

~~~
TimTheTinker
That’s a great article, and rather eye-opening.

Juul may help cigarette smokers get away from tobacco, but wow — stories about
teens and young adults taking Juul hits every 10-15 minutes are something
else. That’s just plain addiction, taking them far beyond the threshold of
diminishing returns, even for caffeine-like self-medication.

There’s definitely a lot of money in creating addictions... this can’t be a
long-term, net good to society the way it’s heading now.

~~~
EpicEng
And when I was in school half the kids smoked cigarrettes. I have no idea what
the numbers are, but you have to consider that fewer kids are using tobacco,
which is a good thing.

~~~
trentlott
Well, it depends.

As far as I remember, the vehicle is propylene glycol. It isn't biologically
inert, and I'm not sure how much work has been done to study buildup within
the lungs or combustion products. Combine that with dodgy sourcing allowing
metal contamination.

It seems more or less the definition of trading the devil you know for one you
don't.

~~~
tonypace
There are a lot of studies about inhaling PG in the context of smoke machines
(in bars, generally). It reduces lung function, but not permanently. No more
serious harm seems to be indicated.

~~~
EpicEng
Also, PG has been used in ventilation systems as an air sanitizer for decades.
Not a 1:1 comparison given the massively increased volume papers get, but it's
something.

~~~
singingfish
There's literature back to the 1930s about workers inhalation of VG and PG
vapour in volume in an industrial setting. From memory, there are consequences
but not associated with the chronic degenerative health conditions associated
with cigarette smoking. An examination of the molecular biology of VG and PG
suggests its quite difficult to find bad things they would do that would be
associated with the chronic degenerative health conditions associated with
smoking.

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robertpelloni
For those who don't know, Juul is the inventor of the "salted nicotine" vaping
trend which makes the nicotine spike much faster in the bloodstream than
earlier vape juice, which is more like cigarettes. They have a patent but it
appears to be ignored by the vape industry as "nicotine salts" are widely
available (added benzoic acid). The nicotine level is also much higher,
allowing for lower wattage devices and smaller vape clouds, and a harsher hit
that more closely resembles smoking. I think this technology is great if it
can reduce the harm of smoking and get people off of cigarettes.

~~~
aphextron
> I think this technology is great if it can reduce the harm of smoking and
> get people off of cigarettes.

I think this was the initial hope for e-cigs, but reality has turned out
differently. These things are leading to a whole new generation of nicotine
addicts at a time when smoking has fallen to all time lows in the US. Juul
particularly is getting kids hooked that otherwise would have never touched
tobacco, and they're getting a lot of heat over their advertising tactics now.

~~~
singingfish
I'm not able to accept this without decent evidence. There's some pretty clear
psychopharmacology related to burning tobacco that is absent for ecigs.
Specifically one of the byproducts of burning tobacco is a compound related to
early anti-depressants - a mono amine oxidase inhibitor. The effect of this
compound seems to be to potentiate the addictiveness of nicotine. That is move
its addictiveness from O(n) similar to caffeine to greater than heroin
(citations available). This is why the buzz you don't really get a buzz from
ecigs that you get from cigarettes, and also why people who are using ecigs to
give up smoking should initially start with a very high nicotine concentration
(i.e. as high as they can tolerate) to saturate their system, so a relapse to
cigarettes does not give any satisfaction. Additionally at low doses typical
of ecig use, nicotine seems to be about as harmful as caffeine. It's the
byproducts of combustion that seem to be the real problem.

~~~
tigershark
How many years of cigarettes smoking and vaping did you have? From what you
write it seems to me that either you never smoked for years both of them or
now you started vaping and you want to believe in what you write. Sadly the
things that you write are extremely dangerous for all the young people that
start vaping.

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notvplez
I managed to break a seventeen year old cigarette habit by switching to vaping
(after dozens of failed attempts either going cold turkey or with nicotinine
gum/snus), and have now vaped exclusively for almost seven years. In my
opinion his comment is 100% spot on.

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_hardwaregeek
It's pretty incredible how fast Juul took over the market. Even a year or two
ago nobody I knew really vaped or smoked. But now Juul has basically made
vaping popular. It's super easy to get, lightweight, and amazingly effective
(i.e. addictive). I watched my friend go from never smoking a cigarette in his
life to getting a Juul, to having serious stress and mood swings if he
couldn't find his Juul. If he lost his Juul, he bought a new one _immediately_
, no matter the price.

~~~
therein
He should have just contacted support and asked for a replacement. The actual
device itself is actually quite simple and cheap and despite selling it for
the price they are selling it for, they'll ship you a free replacement in a
heartbeat because it is so cheap for them to manufacture.

Aside from that, what bothers me with Juul and makes it possible for a
competitor to potentially usurp them, even after the momentum they have behind
them is how inconsistent the pod quality is. Let alone leaking, the pods
degrade really quickly and juice sometimes seems to disappear. The liquid
changes color and develops dark filaments even after less than a day passed
since taking it out of its packaging.

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simonebrunozzi
Very dubious about the long term health effects of e-cigarettes.
Unfortunately, a startup can move much faster than proper regulation.

I hope I'm wrong.

~~~
skellera
E-cigs have been on sale for like a decade now. What kind of regulations are
you hoping for?

~~~
ttul
Hopefully regulations that spell out the dangers of nicotine addiction (which
are non zero) and which protect children to the maximum extent possible. Take
a leaf from Canada’s new Cannabis Act, which is incredibly harsh on those who
sell and distribute to minors.

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ttul
I have heard that you can’t find a stall to save your life at my kid’s high
school because they are all constantly being used by Juul-ers. One has to
wonder whether this is a good idea, hooking kids on nicotine, even if it’s
free of smoke.

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cowpewter
I've never been a smoker, but I do like vaping. Nicotine is a useful chemical
when it's not accompanied by all the junk that comes with burning adulterated
plant matter. I self-medicate with it for ADD. It helps me focus, more than
caffeine does alone. I used to use the lozenges that are advertised for
smoking cessation, but I switched to vaping about a year ago.

~~~
GuiA
That is a nuance that a lot of people are missing.

Nicotine is highly addictive, but in itself does not kill you (at the amounts
smokers/vapers are intaking it).

What kills you is the delivery mechanism. We have plenty of data for how the
"burning up dried tobacco leaves" delivery mechanism kills you. However,
currently, we have very little data regarding how propylene glycol does or
does not kill you in the long term. That is the big open question when it
comes to vaping.

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jaequery
after almost 18 years, i quit smoking and vaping altogether a year ago and i
couldn't be happier now. it feels great to be finally free from smoking. i
used to think smoking is good for relieving stress, but after i quit, i
realize, it was smoking that created the stress every couple hours for me to
light up another one.

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danieltillett
My concern is more about the young age of many of the new users and the
perception that vaping is safe. While I don’t doubt that vaping is much safer
than smoking, I am not sure if I want to see 13 year olds vaping given it
appears to be just as addictive as smoking.

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xkcd-sucks
What is Juul doing that led to such resounding success compared to all the
other ecig makers?

~~~
cannabisceo
1\. Simple to use pod system eliminated the headache of using DIY devices
where you buy the e-liquid, cartridge, and battery separately and fill your
own cartridges.

2\. Salt-based nicotine provides increased nicotine absorption and juul
patented that. It's literally more addictive.

3\. It blew the competition out if the water. The other ecig devices offered
at convenience stores were underpowered, poor performing, and obviously low
effort.

4\. Distribution. Getting into convenience stores and gas stations was pivotal
to their success but arguably the product quality drove distribution.

5\. The device is sexy looking. It's a fashion statement.

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ghostbrainalpha
Why is vaping more popular than Nicotine gum, and Nicotine patches?

A third party can't even tell their is anything special about your gum. So you
would think it could be popular among high-school students and people on the
air plane and the other situations that don't allow vapor clouds.

~~~
zubi
Because smoking as a habit has very little to do with nicotine addiction. The
psychological addiction is the key. After a long period of smoking it takes
only a few days to fully overcome nicotine withdrawal whereas it takes much
longer time and effort to get rid of the habit itself. Smoke, gestures, the
ritual, everything related to smoking becomes a part of your identity, so
replacing the whole package is easier compared to eliminating everything but
the chemical aspect.

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iamthirsty
20 year old Juul addict living with two others! AMA.

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martin1975
Personally I like my Phix... twice the amount of nic juice, about the same
price and bigger battery. Definitely more action for about the same amount of
money. They're not the best kid on the block..just the first in this category.

