
Declining eyesight improved by looking at deep red light - omarchowdhury
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-06/ucl-dei062620.php
======
Havoc
And green supposedly reduces pain.

And blue keeps you awake.

The guys with their RGB computer gear where right after all...

~~~
gopalv
> green supposedly reduces pain

There's a Jasper Fforde book[1] which treats green like an opiod (of course,
the book is about a dalton style genetic dystopia - colour vision instead of
race, but one with Ford in a Mao style "great leap forward").

The whole book treats colour as a powerful thing to manipulate bodies and
minds.

[1] 125-66-53 in -
[http://www.jasperfforde.com/grey/chroma.html](http://www.jasperfforde.com/grey/chroma.html)

~~~
zackees
Personal anecdote, I was able to improve my eyesight by getting a 70 inch TV
as a monitor and placing it 6 feet away.

I was about -5 and moved to -4.75

~~~
nouveaux
I am missing the connection here. Why would this improve your eyesight?

~~~
zackees
If you are nearsighted then it's probably because your eyes are adjusting to
close objects like reading and looking at a monitor. Your eyes adapt to their
focal length. For example, taxi drivers often get farsighted.

------
Gys
Discussed extensively:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23685915](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23685915)

------
progfix
I am not sure if this is related, but I am heavily short sighted and facing
the sun with closed eyes for a couple of minutes sharpens my eyes.

I suspect it is just because I tend to spend too much time in dark rooms and
in front of screens and being in the bright sun "fixes" that for a while.

~~~
moron4hire
It's forcing your pupils to constrict. Decreasing the aperture size on a lens
increases the field of view. So, while your eye might not be able to
accommodate at the correct distance given the current convergence point, there
is more room for error. It's a fairly common method in photography, in cases
where one might have difficulty getting a correct focus on a subject. It's not
a "fix", but a compensation.

~~~
hellofunk
> Decreasing the aperture size on a lens increases the field of view.

No, the aperture has no effect on the field of view. They are orthogonal
features of how a lens works.

~~~
PaulHoule
I think the commentator meant "depth of field"

~~~
moron4hire
yes, didn't have my first coffee yet

------
tzs
There are several comments here pointing out that RGB devices such as phones
and monitors usually cannot make a narrow band of light around 670 nm.

But the article ties this to light absorption by mitochondria, which it says
absorb [1] 650-1000 mm light.

Two questions:

1\. If you use a narrow band source of light, does it really need to be around
670 nm, or will anything in that 650-1000 range likely do?

2\. Would it actually matter if there is also light outside this band?

If it doesn't actually have to be narrow and only contain 650-1000 nm, then it
might actually work with some RGB devices. There seems to be significant
variation among RGB devices, though.

jlokier linked to spectra for iPhone X [2] and iPad Pro 9.7/iPad Air 2 [3].
The iPhone X with Night Shift at maximum has a significant output about 650
nm. The iPads have very little above 650 nm.

This suggests that RGB devices might work for this, but there is no easy way
of knowing for a given RGB device unless you can get its spectrogram.

From what I've been able to find, it looks like Philips Hue bulbs just miss,
with their red falling off rapidly near 650 nm.

Candles look really good for this [4], and I'd guess similar for fires. I
wonder if this means that ancient people tended to keep better eyesight in old
age then us, because every significant light source they had (sunlight,
moonlight, firelight) had a lot of its energy above 650 nm?

[1] OT, but why the heck does the "b" in "absorb" become a "p" in
"absorption"?

[2]
[http://www.displaymate.com/Spectra_41a.html](http://www.displaymate.com/Spectra_41a.html)

[3]
[http://www.displaymate.com/Spectra_35.html](http://www.displaymate.com/Spectra_35.html)

[4]
[http://dev.informationdisplay.org/IDArchive/2015/NovemberDec...](http://dev.informationdisplay.org/IDArchive/2015/NovemberDecember/FrontlineTechnologyCandleLikeEmission.aspx)

~~~
the8472
> 2\. Would it actually matter if there is also light outside this band?

Your pupils will adjust to perceived intensity. So if the bulk of the light
comes in at shorter wavelengths it'll contract and you'll get even less of the
already small fraction in the range of interest.

On the other side in the infrared it's more a question of safety. You don't
want to overload your retina.

So you want it visible but long wavelengths only, which boils down to a fairly
narrow range.

That's assuming it actually works. Single studies and all that.

------
zoomablemind
> ...simple brief exposures to light wavelengths that recharge the energy
> system that has declined in the retina cells, rather like re-charging a
> battery.

If retina cells' energy absorbing properties are so selective, then how such
treatment is different from daily exposure to ambient or dusktime sunlight? Or
this 'recharging' stops in presence of 'wrong' wavelengths in the spectrum?

~~~
bdjfkrkrk
I think it's about intensity. It's well known that powerful light in the
morning from the sun is good for you. But it needs to be above a certain
intensity.

~~~
dorkwood
I currently have the morning sun blasting through my window every morning, and
it feels like it's having the opposite effect: reduced sleep quality and a
foggier brain.

------
company454
It is one of used methods of improving (or preventing from declining,
depending how you look into this) eyesight for children in Ukrainian (and
probably many other post-Soviet) clinics.

I'm 30 now, I have been myopic since 6-7 years old. Every year from around
1998 to 2008 I went (well, was forced to go by my mother, she didn't like the
idea of glasses) to clinic, where during 10-14 days I and other children did
lots of exercises, which presumably had to improve my eyesight. Staring into a
device, which emitted red light, was one of such exercises.

It usually happened one time a day, a doctor collected all children (10-15)
into a group, we went into dark room, where the doctor pointed a light beam
from that device (it was semi-portable) into child's eyes. There were 3-4
sessions, 1-2 minutes each. We were also encouraged to look into the sun in
the evening, when it is close to the horizon and is red (for a few minutes
each day).

The only problem with all those exercises is that they didn't really worked. I
remember that during the first few years I at least was able to see some
marginal improvements (like being able to see at the end of 2 week period 5-7
lines out of 10 instead of 4-5 on the standard chart).

However, all subsequent years I (and most children there) just imitated the
progress due to the pressure from doctors ("Don't you see that line? You saw
it yesterday. Have you watched TV again?") and parents ("Darling, look more
carefully, you probably will see at least some letters there."). I still
remember the first 7 lines (+ the last line) of that table by heart, more than
10 years since I saw/used it the last time.

Nothing worked: \- neither exercises with lenses (you look though +lenses,
then though -ones, than again though +ones and so on) \- nor direct shots of
vitamins and actovegin into your butt and under eyes (not as unpleasant
experience as it sounds, they just enter a thin needle 1-2 cm below each of
your eyes and administer a shot, it doesn't hurt all that much). \- nor
special eye treatment, where you hold small reservoirs with hot Riboflavin
(vitamin B2) contacting your eyes for 30 minutes each day (there were
electrodes there, with small current going through your eyes, probably to make
the absorption better) \- nor neck massage (What the hell neck massage has to
do with eyesight? We were told, that it somehow improves blood circulation in
the neck, and it is somehow better for blood circulation close to your eyes).
The most pleasant exercise, by the way, you just seat for 5-7 minutes and a
lady doctor does a massage.

Doing that as a child, without parents (I was dropped of in the morning and
taken out closer to 16.00-17.00), waiting in queues for all those exercises
(sometimes - 30-60 minutes for each). It was as close to hell as I got under
my childhood.

The result - I got more or less the same -4 and -5 until I was 20 years old,
just as other children, which just wore glasses. A few years after that I did
laser correction, since that time I got 100% eyesight.

So, I don't believe in that "treatment". If it does something - the effect is
marginal and quickly disappears a few weeks later. Get good/convenient glasses
or contact lenses, if you have enough money - wait until 20-22 years and do
laser surgery. It will change your life just as it changed mine.

~~~
throw1234651234
City / organization name in hohlyandiya?

Massages CAN improve circulation. It's just uncertain if it really helps with
the issue at hand. For example, head massages increase hair width but don't
cure baldness.

~~~
company454
1\. "hohlyandiya" is considered as derogatory name of Ukraine, it's strange to
see it being used on Hacker News (a link for non-Ukrainian folk here:
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/хохол](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/хохол)
and
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/khokhol](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/khokhol)).

2\. Ivano-Frankivsk regional hospital/clinic. Well, massages probably can do
many things, they just don't cure/slow progressing myopia.

~~~
throw1234651234
Thanks, sorry if I offended you. It was just my way to convey to you why I am
asking about the specific hospital.

I honestly consider kazap/hohol to be too comical to be offensive, but
apologies if I offended, not my intent.

~~~
agapon
No problem, silly kazap. Sorry if I offended you.

~~~
throw1234651234
I am a hohol too ;)

------
chansiky
> "The technology is simple and very safe, using a deep red light of a
> specific wavelength, that is absorbed by mitochondria in the retina that
> supply energy for cellular function."

Interesting, I would have never thought that we have cells that use light as
energy.

Also, is this deep red light found in sunlight as well? As in, does this
treatment only work with light that is restricted to this wavelength, or does
it work with any light that contains ample amounts of this wavelength?

I know its been coming up here and there that we are just not getting enough
sunlight in general with everyone studying indoors, working indoors,
exercising indoors, etc. Just seeing if this is a broader issue of people not
spending enough time in the great outdoors.

~~~
raun1
Sunlight has tons of red and infrared light (red and near infrared have mostly
the same effects on cells, the main difference being penetration distance).

Light is ridiculously important for mitochondrial health, and that effect on
mitochondria is one of the main reasons sunlight is so necessary for optimal
health. Fun fact, 75% of potential ATP production only results from light
exposure, with only 25% from food. We run on light more than we do food
(necessary nutrients and minerals aside).

~~~
omarchowdhury
> Fun fact, 75% of potential ATP production only results from light exposure,
> with only 25% from food. We run on light more than we do food (necessary
> nutrients and minerals aside).

This is fascinating. Would you care to share literature that dives into this?

------
jaggirs
Does this have any similarly with staring at a fire?

~~~
scabbycakes
Oooh, good question! Anyone able to answer this?

~~~
core-questions
Certainly a fire produces light in this wavelength, but also in many other
wavelengths nearby, so since a narrow band seems to be the requirement for the
eyesight improvement, it's probably not optimal.

------
HumblyTossed
Neat. Helps with blue light sensitivity. Ought to help with all those awful
blue on black night modes out there. But won't help lens flexibility, so
readers will still be needed.

------
slowmovintarget
Is this advertising? Interesting findings, but it ends with "we're developing
a product..."

~~~
throw1234651234
Probably. There is a device that "fixes baldness" that just shines red light
at your head.

------
bovermyer
So I should hang deep red LED strips all over my home office, then.

I finally have an excuse...

------
emmelaich
Related -- has anyone here tried
[http://www.glassesoff.com/](http://www.glassesoff.com/) and had some success?

It trains the brain rather than affecting the eyes.

~~~
throw1234651234
No. Looks like it's only for nearsightedness anyway.

I have practiced looking at a pencil end / hair follicle / other small object
as close to my eye as possible and then looking at a distant object for years
now. I have also read about the Bates method, palming, etc and have tried them
on and off over the years.

The close-far method seems to be the only reasonable "exercise" \- though no
one can tell me for sure whether there is muscles involved (or relaxing said
muscles) in looking far away.

Anyway, nothing has helped. I also don't see strong research on the topic
however. As an example, doing a one-arm chinup is possible for most people. It
can take up to half a decade of structured, regular training.

Maybe fixing eyes is possible, but it requires 30+ mins a day, every day for
years. Who knows.

Edit: Also, the strongest studies are the ones comparing Chinese kids in China
and Austarlia, where the latter spend more time outdoors and have reliably
better eyesight. Not really relevant to adults, but can help when raising your
kids.

~~~
davidwitt415
One of my covid projects is improving my nearsightedness, I'm 20/200+. I've
been spending 20 minutes a day doing techniques called Eqyptian Black Dot and
Egyptian Letter Gazing plus other techniques I got from a book called The Art
of Cosmic Vision by Mantak Chia, a well known Taiji master. I've been doing it
now for 7 weeks and have noticed significant improvement in my vision. I'm not
going to be driving without glasses any time soon, however, I am increasingly
able to function without glasses, which was my main goal.

Your point about the outdoors is also made in the book. We are spending our
time in near focus on screens and not using our far vision, as in nature. I
now make sure to take time during the day to get outside and do distance
gazing and expose my eyes to sunlight.

~~~
throw1234651234
I printed out an eye chart and have consistent lighting in a room where I use
it. My eyes have not improved in the past 5 years of doing exercises on and
off.

I recommend printing an eye chart and testing yourself w/ the same lighting
and distance from the chart.

Also, keep me updated please (if you remember to, post here or something),
genuinely interested.

I am tempted to buy a huge screen and place it across the room from me to have
the focus point further away.

I think part of the problem might be that it's focused on one place, rather
than close focus. But I guess it's better to be focused further away.

~~~
davidwitt415
I printed out an eye chart this week to do just that. I also purchased a
device for testing and tracking my vision that I just started with:
[https://www.eyeque.com/visioncheck/](https://www.eyeque.com/visioncheck/) You
can email me (davidwitt415 at gmail) if you want me to keep you updated on my
progress.

------
vangelis
Works for mental acuity too:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042018](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042018)

------
abruzzi
I need to check the wavelength of the safelight in my dark room, but I
sometimes spend hours in deep red light, so I guess that could be good.

------
rubicks
This seems relevant: [http://jonls.dk/redshift/](http://jonls.dk/redshift/)

------
paulcarroty
My ophthalmologist suggested to do similar exercises 10+ years ago, like
seeing in 'lazer oculars'.

So I guess this is not new practice.

------
grbullock
Twenty-four participants of varying ages that found an effect on older people?
This study reeks of p-hacking.

------
newsbinator
Sounds harmless to try at home.

Anybody know how to make a 670nm deep red light?

Can an iPhone do it or would you want to buy an LED?

~~~
thdrdt
Be very careful with this. Light sources can emit all kind of peaks of light
you might not notice. For example a LED might look red but can also emit some
infrared.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
Could that be harmful to the eye?

~~~
lm28469
Yes, just like looking at an eclipse without the proper gear. Your eyes don't
register the threat and stay wide open while getting blasted by harmful
wavelengths

------
lazyeye
Would you get the same impact wearing red-tinted sunglasses in daylight?

------
mikece
Sounds like it should be trivial to build a website -- a future Show HN? -- to
make the whole screen the correct color for a specific interval of time,
fading in an out at the start/finish. The only thing the user might have to do
it turn up the screen brightness first.

~~~
the8472
Computer monitors do not work like that. They emit a mix of 3 fixed spectra.
You cannot shift the red to an even longer wavelength. At least not without
adding some physical filters on top that only let through the long tail (which
is fairly inefficient). At that point you might as well buy specialized LEDs.

