

National Rail Have Killed My UK Train Times App - mocko
http://mocko.org.uk/b/2010/10/29/national-rail-have-killed-my-train-times-app/

======
auxbuss
Talk about Old Skool British behaviour. I grew up with this mentality and have
been merrily waving it goodbye for the past couple of decades.

As well as the suggestions in the article's comments, I'd drop a tweet to
Glynn Moody (@glynmoody) who will certainly take this on. Also worthwhile
tweeting would be Tim Danton (@timdanton) editor of PCPro (for USians, that's
the UK's main commercial tech mag), and also Tom Watson (@tom_watson) our
"Uber Geek in Parliament".

No harm in getting a petition going at Number10 and maybe asking the Open
Rights Group (@OpenRightsGroup) to get involved and start a campaign of
lobbying MPs.

In addition, open data is huge in the Euro Parliament, so write to all you
MEPs via <http://www.writetothem.com/>

Don't ignore the latter, my experience with my MEPs has been excellent. One
even sends a weekly newsletter giving his diary, what occurred, and what he's
up to next. Once you engage with these folk, things really can start
happening.

We need to fight to keep public data available, and there's loads of support
in the places where it matters, so just start making some noise and you'll
soon have your app back working, and hopefully you additional app too.

~~~
bsk
Problem is it's an association of private companies. Maybe a better way is to
pressure the government Network Rail to offer a similar service, as they also
have the information.

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stevenp
I fought this same issue with Routesy, my SF iPhone app, in 2009. Getting
agencies to be smart about making data open is a challenge, but a lot of
cities are coming around.

Once agencies realize that they can _not_ make a killing off apps and that
they're better off having developers make great apps that increase ridership
by making the systems less awful to ride, everybody wins.

If you're curious about the story of my battle and how I had to get a lawyer
involved to get Apple to let my app back into the store, check this out:
[http://sfappeal.com/news/2009/06/who-owns-sfmta-arrival-
data...](http://sfappeal.com/news/2009/06/who-owns-sfmta-arrival-data.php)

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andysinclair
There seems to be a trend emerging where companies/organistions are killing
off APIs with no warning, and the consumer of the API is powerless.

I blogged about this recently
[http://andysinclair.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/your-api-
killed...](http://andysinclair.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/your-api-killed-my-
application/) as I was very annoyed that TFL (London's transport network)
disabled one of their APIs which stopped 2 very popular iPhone applications
from working.

~~~
unculture
Could this be because of the change of government? The new government is
dismantling all sorts of other central government internet projects - perhaps
the data providers who were being pressured into making their feeds available
are spotting a change in the political climate and a chance to keep the
profits in-house.

~~~
andysinclair
I'm not so sure, I think it more a case of lots of these APIs and open data
projects exist as "side projects" and do not receive the full backing and
resources of the department/organisation.

I followed up the story of TFL and it turns out that the API stopped working
because of a security patch that was applied, rather than more sinister
reasons.

------
netaustin
So mock their API with BeautifulSoup or Hpricot :-)

~~~
bsk
Way to go. Just host it in a safe country, like Turkey.

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drpancake
I wrote to my MP about this very issue a couple of months ago, explaining that
ATOC are abusing their position by making sure that their £4.99 iPhone app is
the only option available. At the time I wanted to build something for
Android, but was put off by cases just like this one. Here's the reply:

"Dear Mr ______,

Thank you for your e-mail of the 23 August.

The ORR regularly monitors Network Rail's operations both annually and more
comprehensively periodically. Network Rail operates under a network licence.
This licence contains a set of conditions under which Network Rail must
operate. Network Rail is also accountable under its licence. The ORR's
monitoring and enforcement of Network Rail operates under a regulatory
framework designed to provide effective incentives, rewarding Network Rail for
doing a good job. Where necessary, the ORR may enforce compliance with the
network licence if Network Rail fails to fulfil its obligations, and we may
also impose monetary penalties.

As the monopoly owner and operator of the UK rail network, it has control over
timetabling and its relevant data. As you highlight, ATOC use this data for
its National Rail Enquiries services, in agreement with Network Rail.
Distribution of this information is at the discretion of Network Rail.

Its funding is derived from track access charges and station leases. It also
gets a Government grant based on network improvements agreed with the
Department for Transport. All funding information can be found on Network
Rail's website (www.networkrail.co.uk) whilst all reviews from the ORR can be
found on its website (www.rail-reg.gov.uk).

Thank you for taking the trouble to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Richard Benyon MP"

tl;dr: Network Rail operates under a network license and is regulated by the
ORR (i.e. it's effectively government controlled) but that license says that
they can distribute data however they see fit.

~~~
drpancake
I forgot to mention: in a week or so I'm meeting the guy at Directgov
responsible for data.gov.uk (for something at work and totally unrelated).
I'll be sure to bring this up and see if he can help out.

~~~
mocko
Thanks, I'd really appreciate that. ATOC's attitude really stinks. If you want
to get in touch directly I'm mock at mocko.org.uk.

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jalada
They killed off MyRail Lite ages ago as well:
[http://www.bluesnapper.com/blog/stuff/kizoom-myrail-lite-
gon...](http://www.bluesnapper.com/blog/stuff/kizoom-myrail-lite-gone/)

------
conjectures
Hello. I suggest you try and contact people on and around the Transparency
Board: data.gov.uk. @rchards supports the board and @nigel_shadbolt is on it,
@countculture is also a good bet. Drop me a line matthew at refute.me.uk if
you need some email addresses.

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anigbrowl
Send this to Private eye - they love a well-documented case of bureaucratic
bumbling like yours.

------
omh
I just opened the letters page of UK Wired Magazine and there's a letter from
the chief executive of National Rail Enquiries (Chris Scoggins) pledging to
open up their data.

I'm sure that Wired would be interested in your story, and it's worth trying
to contact Mr Scoggins directly.

(I'm not a regular Wired reader, but it seems this is in response to a letter
published in the 09.10 edition)

~~~
mocko
Hi omh. That looks like an awesome point of contact. I can't find a letters
page on their website, is his letter online anywhere?

~~~
omh
I don't think it's online, and unfortunately i've now lost my copy of the
magazine. It looks like part of an ongoing discussion though, so contacting
Wired to get the whole storyis probably best. Good luck!

~~~
mocko
I went out and bought a copy this morning :) Fascinating letter, the chief
executive's commitment to opening data feeds is completely at odds with what
they're doing here. I've left a comment on his blog post at
<https://nationalrailenquiries.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/146/> so let's see if
it elicits a response.

~~~
omh
Now that I'm back at a computer, I found the 'From the Editor' letter that he
was responding to:

[http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-
magazine/archive/2010/09/start/...](http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-
magazine/archive/2010/09/start/from-the-editor?page=all)

------
jlees
It's entirely because they must be making a killing off their paid-for app and
don't want you to offer a free alternative. How horrid.

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DisposaBoy
Guys, before rounding up a mob, please try to find out the story from the
other side as well. To put it simply there was a complaint about Tfl killing
an app last week or something, AFAIK that developer didn't get permission to
use the data whether or not it was publicly available or whomever used that
data. It states in Tfl's website that written permission is required for
certain things and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get such
permissions. In the article I noticed slight whining about other people doing
the same thing which is (slightly)comparable to illegal downloading of films,
countless people do it, but ultimately you have to seek permission from the
content providers as you're utiliing _their_ services.

~~~
confuzatron
Quite.

One can't blame companies for being a bit protective of their timetable data.
If this kind of data escapes into the wild there's a genuine risk of what is
known in the biz as _'having more customers'_. When this happens there's a
whole knock on series of problems that the companies need to deal with, not
least of which is _'working out what to do with all the extra money'_.

I think perhaps this chap didn't consider these factors when he cooked up his
little application. Will he be stumping up to repair any tracks that get worn
out earlier due to increased passenger numbers? I think not.

~~~
unculture
I catch your obvious double meaning, but it's worth pointing out again that
these institutions get a lot of tax money, so we most definitely do have to
stump up extra when tracks need repairing.

~~~
confuzatron
Good point - the bastards have even less justification in hoarding the
precious precious data.

