
Skinny Puppy demands royalties from US govt for using their music in Guantanamo - r0h1n
http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2014/12/skinny_puppy_de.html
======
delinka
Let's step back into reality for a moment. Do they actually have a claim? Once
I've bought the album, can't I torture my acquaintances to my heart's content
without paying royalties? A small enough group isn't a "public performance,"
I'm not broadcasting it to the entire town.

Further, aren't there exemptions for the federal government with respect to
use of copyrighted works? Sure, you'd probably have a case against a federal
agency who acquired your album only to provide copies freely to its employees,
but if they stick a track in a presentation to a small group (or several small
groups ... or many small groups) I'm pretty sure the courts would just throw
out your case.

OK, enough armchair lawyering, is there someone with a professional opinion on
this?

~~~
waterlesscloud
Bars and retail stores count as "public performance" for purposes of song
royalties. So the group in question can be quite small.

~~~
tomp
That's because they are open to the public. Jails are not, in general -
they're more like invite-only parties.

~~~
jahewson
Copyright law defines a public performance as one which occurs outside of a
family and it's normal social circle. So any performance at an invite-only
party is regarded as a public performance. For this reason, although a jail is
not a public place, any performance there would be considered a public
performance.

This makes sense when you think about it: an invite-only party could be held
in a fancy hotel and have many hundreds of guests, or it may be a business
event.

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shdon
It's a pity that governments place themselves above the law. It would be nice
to see the US government forced to actually pay up. It would be even nicer to
see the band donate any sum awarded to an organisation like Amnesty
International or Doctors Without Borders.

~~~
grecy
> _It would be nice to see the US government forced to actually pay up._

Or, if they don't, to keep things consistent, then nobody should ever have to
pay up again.

~~~
bostik
Could you then label a nightclub as "Aural S/M Experience" and avoid paying
any royalties from the used mu^Wtorture tracks?

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pekk
In case you didn't understand the subtext, the point of this is to register
offense that their music was used in this way (the opposite of what they would
want). It's a form of passive resistance. This story isn't primarily about
copyright and it certainly isn't about money.

~~~
saraid216
Ah, but a large percentage of HNers are Americans and thus care more about
copyright and money than about torture.

~~~
swasheck
I think that what you're trying to say is that `a large percentage of HNers
are Americans and thus care more about copyright being used against them in
order to extort them, usually for money.`

Most "Americans" care about a wide variety of topics so please take this sort
of stereotype somewhere else.

~~~
saraid216
No, that is not at all what I was saying, but thank you for trying.

~~~
etherael
I'm confused here. You said something that was on the surface absurd, got
downvoted on it, which I would assume would at least cause you to re-examine
your original premises, and then came back doubling down on your original
statement, which I interpret as dismissal of the downvotes as just hive mind
thinking about a subject they're very clearly wrong about. So, do you honestly
actually believe that most Americans are more concerned with copyrights than
torture? And if so, what leads you to this conclusion?

This question is not meant to be hostile, I am not American so I have no horse
in this race, I just want to understand where you're coming from.

~~~
jholman
I'm not saraid216, nor American, but I believe that I find it very difficult
to find (sampling from primarily Canadians and Americans) people who get
emotionally heated about other people being tortured, and relatively easy to
find people who get emotionally heated about copyright violation (usually
against themselves or against someone they would like to identify with). I
would say that I find the latter group between 10x and 100x more common in my
life than the former.

It's even harder to find someone who will actually lift a finger to do
anything about strangers being tortured, and harder still to find someone who
will do more than write an angry comment online (for example, I will not do
more than write comments online).

Although I found saraid216's comment smug, dismissive, and non-contributing,
as far as I can tell it was essentially _true_.

~~~
etherael
Interesting perspective, I agree with your observations, but I don't know if
it's really a manifestation of those people not caring about torture so much
as it seems like a problem with which they do not have direct experience and
thus do not have the emotional immediacy involved with something that more
directly affects them.

For example, I might find my neighbour's loud music at three in the morning
evokes more of an emotional response than the spanish inquisition, but that
doesn't actually imply I think that my neighbour's loud music at three in the
morning is really more important or severe than the spanish inquisition.

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JonnieCache
Seems pretty cheap. They've got a lot to learn about military contracting.

~~~
junto
As long as the figure continues to have lots of triple 6's the point is made I
guess.

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saljam
Musicians have made similar demands in 2008[1]. That includes Christopher
Cerf, one of the Sesame Street composers. He features in a documentary
Aljazeera made about this[2]. I seem to remember he also asked for royalties
but was unsuccessful, but I can't find a reference to that.

[1]
[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google...](http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fhostednews%2Fap%2Farticle%2FALeqM5g64EuoVhuWIkenJw0OsqodF-
EbnwD94VDHPG0&date=2008-12-09)

[2] [http://www.dummymag.com/videos/watch-al-jazeera-s-songs-
of-w...](http://www.dummymag.com/videos/watch-al-jazeera-s-songs-of-war-with-
christopher-cerf)

------
sheetjs
Reddit discussion (from 9 hours ago):
[http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/2p8mvd/skinny_p...](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/2p8mvd/skinny_puppy_demands_666000_in_royalties_from_us/)

Earlier this year they tried to bill the US government:
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/metal-band-
skin...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/metal-band-skinny-puppy-
send-us-government-invoice-after-finding-out-their-music-was-used-as-torture-
device-in-guantanamo-bay-9100005.html)

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DigitalSea
$666,000 is far too low. If the members of Skinny Puppy knew how Government
defence contracting works, they would realise that this kind of value is a
write-off, go for $666,000,000 - now that is more of a defence figure.

In all seriousness though, this shows extreme irony. The Government is content
with passing draconian bills penalising users for downloading Game of Thrones
and cutting off their Internet connections, sending Swat teams to their homes
and allowing corporations to financially haemorrhage them in the "court of
law". Yet, when the Government wants to use someone else's music without
paying for a licence, they think they are above the law they want to so
desperately put in place?

They definitely have a case. Copyright law forbids audio and video being
broadcasted to many persons without a licence in a public place (with
exception of your family and a few other exceptions). This isn't music being
played in a family home, it is music being broadcasted in a US owned detention
camp prison.

If I were in a band and found out my music was being used to torture people, I
would be pretty pissed about it too. I couldn't imagine how that would make
you feel knowing something you created is being used to interrogate and break
a potentially innocent person locked up inhumanely.

I am going to be keeping an eye on this case. If the US fails to pay up, it
could set a precedent for future court cases brought against small businesses
and individuals being fined for playing music. And yes, there have been cases
of small businesses, restaurants, cafes, etc being bullied by ASCAP into
paying for licences to have play CD's or even in some cases, have a radio
playing.

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davidgerard
Actual source: [http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/vancouver-band-demands-
compensa...](http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/vancouver-band-demands-compensation-
after-learning-music-used-for-guantanamo-bay-torture-1.1671312)

This is from February.

~~~
microtherion
And I submitted it back then:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7192081](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7192081)

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andrewtbham
The guard's story that told the band is interesting.

[http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/industrial-
acti...](http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/industrial-action.html)

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singingfish
I did a small amount of research on this on behalf of a psychologist involved
in torture trials (not testing torture, bringing people to account). The use
of Skinny Puppy's music has been quite widespread.

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sysk
Could this spawn a new music genre/industry (torture music)? We truly live in
a bizarre world. It would certainly make for a good character background in a
dystopian movie: a megacorp X office worker who produces torture music at day
but leads a second life at night, rediscovering his love for music at
underground bars where any type of music is being played (despite the the
strict totalitarian government censorship laws).

~~~
fragmede
Someone's clearly never appreciated Merzbow.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzrL8J0t-c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzrL8J0t-c)

~~~
sysk
Indeed I hadn't! I certainly couldn't listen to that for hours but it would
make a good soundtrack for a David Lynch movie :)

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orf
Imagine hearing this[1] for 12 hours straight.

Edit: Not saying it's bad music, but perhaps after the 12 hour point the
constant beat would drive anyone crazy.

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5VFuiblU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5VFuiblU)

~~~
pmoriarty
Please. That's a great song, and even Skinny Puppy (a relatively tame, "dance-
industrial" band) has a lot noiser, less structured music that would be more
"disturbing" to some. These prisoners were lucky if they got to listen to
Puppy's Assimilate.

There's far, far, far more extreme music than that, such as the whole "noise"
genre, which includes bands like Massona,[1] Merzbow,[2] and Borbetomagus.[3]
And, yes, fans pay good money to buy their albums and go hear them live. I've
gone for days listening to all of these virtually non-stop.

I'm not really in to them anymore, but I'd still much rather hear some noise
music than put in a stress position, be tasered, be stuck in an extremely cold
or extremely hot room, be waterboarded, raped, deprived of sleep or medical
attention for weeks on end, be subject to mock executions, have my family
threatened, be kicked to death (or kicked in general.. no thanks!).

Yes, music and various other means of sensory overload or sensory deprivation
can induce altered states of consciousness, and when combined with a menacing
environment where you're surrounded by people who mean you harm (and often do
you harm), they can be unsettling. But music would be one of the last things
I'd be worried about in a torture prison.

At least they didn't force the prisoners to listen to Johnny Cash.[4]

[1] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JjDP3rK5I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JjDP3rK5I)

[2] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguPH0XBxdw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguPH0XBxdw)

[3] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulFn6cqFvc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulFn6cqFvc)

[4] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY)

~~~
krick
It's not about music being extreme. Actually, you can see that other bands in
the list aren't something that is generally considered being extreme. I'd
argue that listening to Merzbow as a torture method is far easier than Queen
exactly because of lack of structure — I generally listen to Merzbow and such
when I'm extremely tired and it just helps to relax and stop thinking.

Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure that loud music for 12 hours is _actually_ more
humanistic (hah, humanistic torture — I've got to remember that!) than
arbitrary item from your list. After all, Chinese water torture [1] also
sounds surprisingly harmless, right?

[1] -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture)

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jackhammer
I thought the entire point of having that secret prison in Cuba is that US
laws don't apply.

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butwhy
How do they prove it?

~~~
malka
They just have to torture them to get a confession.

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jmnicolas
Hey who cares about torture in Guantanamo, a crime has been committed :
copyright infringement.

The level of cynicism of these guys is impressive.

~~~
i_cannot_hack
What on earth are you talking about? This is a statement _against_ the torture
in Guantanamo. They are suing to bring publicity to the issue.

> used our music without our knowledge and used it as an actual weapon against
> somebody

> And Key said band members were offended to learn that their music was played
> in the notorious prison to inflict damagd on detainees.

~~~
jmnicolas
I guess it's a cultural thing (I'm not Anglo-Saxon) but for me, asking for
money is not about being offended : it is being greedy.

If they pledged this money on a charity or something it would look entirely
different.

~~~
Gracana
They're never going to be awarded anything. The money isn't the point.

