
The Updated Pioneer Offer - danicgross
https://pioneer.app/blog/
======
PostOnce
Turns out partially enslaving high school children for $5000 for eight years
generates some backlash.

And to think, that from a guy who is already set for life; what does it say
about a person if they're already rich and entertain themselves by preying on
young people for money they don't remotely need? Other opportunities abound
(with a higher capex and effort barrier), but why work when you can be a
vulture and buy half some kid's life for $5000?

It's good the terms have been revised, but the initial terms were so
inconceivably shitty that I not only wouldn't do business with Gross, but
wouldn't even do business with anyone who does business with him -- I don't
want to contribute to the prosperity of people _THAT_ predatory.

But hey, at least you get an introduction to the network of other vultures.

edit: the original terms were $5K and they get 3% of any company, even if
unrelated to your funded project, that you start for the next 8 years, with
the option to buy another few percent as well. So it was basically a slavery
contract for n% of your life for essentially no money, passed off as a "fund
your dreams" thing.

~~~
captain_perl
> So it was basically a slavery contract for n% of your life

This is not an exaggeration, as it would clutter future cap tables and cause
your co-founders to reconsider working with you.

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js2
I had to dig up the prior discussion to understand what was updated about the
offer. Previously it was:

"In exchange for the investment and benefits below, Pioneer will retain 3% of
any company you found over the next eight years. Pioneer will also have the
option of investing an additional $20,000 for 5% in any of those companies.
These conditions apply if you already have an incorporated company."

There was a lot of pushback from HN on those terms:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17725751](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17725751)

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tpfour
I am still not sure about the $5k. Why not $15k, which is what someone working
minimum wage should expect to earn in a year?

The target population seems to be people who come from poorer backgrounds. $5k
can be a lot of money for someone making only 3x that per year, but it doesn't
seem anywhere near enough to get said person to focus on a project and
_especially_ not enough to get them to work on it and found a company. If the
goal is to get "lost Einsteins" to spend time creating things and building
companies, then you must give them the _time_ luxury to do so and $5k just
seems on the very low end of possibilities.

What am I missing?

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fovc
There's an explicit global angle here. In many parts of the world $5k is way
more than minimum wage for a year

~~~
tpfour
I understand, but then wouldn't you reach 5x more people if you handed out
$1000 instead?

I'm not against the idea, I'm wondering where the $5k is coming from. It just
seems arbitrary and not very much without a proper justification.

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pedalpete
At first I thought this seemed a bit like a scam, but on further reading,
ignoring the $5k as that is a bit of a loss-leader, the terms of the $100k
investment seem very well considered at this point.

At a max of 20% of a funding round you don't have to be concerned that one
investor is going to hold all the power. Though they may attempt to bring
other investors in, you are able to maintain the balance in the investment.

Daniel's history with Cue, having been through multiple rounds and an
acquisition are also good signs for an early investor.

I don't have the time to dig into the specifics, but I like this more than I
thought I would. What are others thoughts? Am I missing something? How can we
help others not have the initial reaction that I had if it would actually
benefit them?

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crossroads091
I thought the earlier feedback from HN was especially critical and cynical.
I'm curious to know how much of the update to the offer came from the feedback
here vis-à-vis the applicants themselves.

~~~
danicgross
HN is a wonderful fuzzer on optimism, so I'm sure it'll find some negative
angle here as well. HN caused us to _think_ about it, but we made the decision
after talking to applicants. Most didn't seem to mind. A few did. We figured
it was worth another revision. We're a startup, too. Launch. Talk to users.
Iterate. Etc. Etc.

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btrettel
Glad that they clarified this, as I was confused about the details of the
original offer. The "and raise money from investors" part makes this much more
attractive to me.

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jay_kyburz
I don't get it? At first I thought you write an application and if its good
enough you get 5k to explore it, but on the get started page is suggests you
have to work on the project for weeks and submit updates every Sunday.

How much work do you have to do to join the competition?

