
Engineers Create Stable Plasma Ring in Open Air - starpilot
http://www.caltech.edu/news/engineers-create-stable-plasma-ring-open-air-80367
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V2hLe0ThslzRaV2
Here's the research paper:
[http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp400001y](http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp400001y)

TLDR: The initial stages of the electrical discharge that produce this
'plasmoid' have many similarities to lightning. They're just electric arcs -
in this case, electric arcs to the surface of this solution of electrolytes.
And then what happens is this plasmoid emerges from it. Ball lightning is used
almost generically to describe phenomena seen in nature that aren't described
by normal lightning, bead lightning or things like 'St Elmo's fire', or
aurora. And likely it's not one thing but several things that have similar
observables. The US Air Force Academy team hopes its new approach can help
science to better understand this strange spectacle.

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roryisok
I learned the term 'St Elmos fire' about 15 minutes ago on a different HN
story, and here it is again. I know this is a common phenomenon but I've never
had it happen so fast

~~~
saycheese
Related Wikipedia pages “St. Elmo's fire” [1] and “Ball Lighting” [2]:

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning)

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ChuckMcM
That is a fun effect. And the generation of microwave RF energy (experienced
as radio interference on Cell phones in the article) suggests you could
rectify some of that and extract electricity directly from the effect.
Depending on wear on the crystal plate of course. Assuming the crystal does
not erode significantly over time, then you build a rectifying antenna around
the spot where the torus will form, these are small so you have hundreds of
thousands, perhaps millions, of these stations under the bottom of pipe which
is fed by your local reservoir. Water flows in, power flows out, no moving
parts. That would be pretty neat.

~~~
Retric
The water jet is moving just around Mach 0.9 so you need a rather complex
setup to generate it and the nozzle likely has a short lifespan even if the
plate is not eroding.

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ChuckMcM
It would be interesting to get comparative run times on water jet cutter
jewels. (non abrasive)

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dsign
It's kind of tragic to apply for a patent on a newly discovered phenomenon
without a foggy idea of the utility of such phenomenon and by extension of a
patent on it. It's like applying for a patent on black holes. With the
difference that pocket black holes are known to be very efficient mass-to-
energy engines...

Phenomenons in science should be public domain.

~~~
anigbrowl
The patent isn't on the phenomenon, but on the method of producing it:

 _The stream of water is an 85-micron-diameter jet blasting from a specially
designed nozzle at 9,000 pounds per square inch that strikes the crystal plate
with an impact velocity of around 1,000 feet per second._

Perhaps this exists in nature somewhere but but it seems pretty unlikely. I
too would prefer it to be public domain but we live ina market-dominated
society right now.

~~~
ehsankia
That seems like a very specific setup that probably took years of research and
trials. It's only fair that they can have some rights. The issue isn't so much
patents, but how patents are used and, more precisely, abused.

~~~
dantheman
Patents are an artificial construct -- their purpose is how they can be used.
If they are being abused, or used incorrectly, then they are flawed and need
to be fixed.

~~~
pavel_lishin
This is the comment in this chain that asks how you judge whether a particular
artificial construct is being abused or used incorrectly, especially with
regard to patents.

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forgotpassagan
Interestingly, the US government may have plasma weapons as far back as 1993.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARAUDER](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARAUDER)

The first attempt at a plasma ring weapon was successful enough to be
classified immediately and nobody has heard anything since. Usually that's a
sign that the project was successful and further research
classified/suppressed.

I've seen similar happen with Free Election Lasers and EMP weapons in recent
years. And with radar stealth before that.

Another tech that seems to have been suppressed is visual/IR stealth
technology dating back to Yehudi Lights.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehudi_lights](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehudi_lights)
. God knows what's out there now but it isn't hard to believe that we have
nearly perfect visual stealth

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rzzzt
Very cool!

Does anyone know why fusion power is not mentioned as a possible application
of this method? I thought maintaining a stable torus of plasma is a
prerequisite for certain designs.

~~~
whatshisface
Plasma first forms at thousands of Kelvin, fusion requires hundreds of
million. On the journey from absolute zero to a fusion reactor, plasma is a
hundredth of a thousandth of the way there.

~~~
gerdesj
I remember going on a physics A level class trip to JET in Oxfordshire in
about '88\. We were shown a graph (log) of progress so far and the target.
100,000th isn't that far out 8) I can't remember how far out they were back
then but a recent improvement had chiselled away another chunk of the problem.

We were told that it would be about 50 (not 25) years to a self sustaining
fusion reaction.

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hammock
What do you do with it? The article says something about storing energy, I'm
curious as to how that might work and what else you could do.

~~~
gnahckire
Maybe a high-end lightsaber?

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blackrock
This is interesting and novel, but what is a practical application of this?

A stream of charged particles of ions and electrons.

* Can this be used to charge a battery?

* Or feed in electrons into a DC power system?

* Can something like this output more energy than it takes in?

~~~
Hasz
I would like to mention this ring of plasma is visible only under a
microscope.

\- Sure, just not very quickly. It will likely come in the form of antennae
(tuned to 1/4 of the resonant frequency, likely around 900MHz or 1800Mhz based
on the static experienced by the researchers) and energy harvesting IC. Would
need more details to be sure.

\- This is a very strange question. Are you asking if it could provide a
potential difference(voltage) to allow a flow of electrons (current) ? If so,
yeah, probably. Would need more details, like above, to be sure. We're
probably talking about several mW of power.

\- Categorically, no. Even if we found out Eisenstein was wrong and quantum
theory is blown apart, thermodynamics will be solid, and thermo says this will
not happen.

This is likely to be an awful way to produce/store/transmit energy, but
definitely cool.

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djcapelis

      > Categorically, no. Even if we found out
      > Eisenstein was wrong and quantum theory is
      > blown apart, thermodynamics will be
      > solid, and thermo says this will not happen.
    

Well, unless you can use a plasma like this to do nuclear fusion, in which
case you will burn matter to generate energy.

~~~
Hasz
I would argue the energy was always there -- it is the mass-energy
equivalence, after all. I should probably clarify my point: energy must come
from somewhere; energy is not spontaneously created.

Also, I don't even think anyone has broken even yet. ITER is supposed to, but
we'll see.

~~~
mkagenius
Then how come big bang created so much energy from nothing?

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chongli
It didn't. All of the energy was there, it just happened to be located in one
place. Now all that energy is spread all over the place but it's still the
same amount of energy.

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eximius
> the ability to generate a stable ring of plasma without powerful
> electromagnetic fields or vacuum suggests the possible use of plasma
> structures to store energy, Gharib says.

That seems strange. Earlier in the article it clarifies that the ring is made
by squirting water on a crystal and that the ring is maintained by continuing
to do that. If you are required to keep squirting water at the crystal to
maintain it, is it actually a good storage mechanism? Is the maintenance power
draw much lower than the initial creation? How efficient is it?

~~~
felipellrocha
I think he is saying this structure _suggests_ other possible structures that
might be more energy efficient.

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LyalinDotCom
Really asks the question, how many other things do researches simply not try
because the standard thinking is that it "won't work".

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sitkack
I'd be interested if the effect is extensible into gases and plasmas.

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tzahola
Good. My plasma speakers are due for an upgrade.

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m3kw9
Now if you can make the plasma move through air at fast speed, Plasma gun!

