
Joe’s Crab Shack Tried Getting Rid of Tips – It Didn’t Last Long - antr
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/business/joes-crab-shack-tried-getting-rid-of-tips-it-didnt-last-long.html
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ryan_j_naughton
> "Company research had found that 60 percent of the restaurants’ customers
> disliked the change in tipping, Mr. Merritt said. They wanted to inspire
> good service with their tips and they didn’t trust management to pass on the
> money to its employees, he said."

Ugh, people are idiots! Paying an employee an actual wage will guarantee them
income in a way that tipping does not. If an employee is hired at a particular
hourly wage, we have labor laws to ensure they are receiving their pay. In
contrast, tipping provides no guarantees and actually enables the abuses these
same people fear. For example, legally a restaurant has to make a waiter whole
if their tips+ low hourly wage does not get to actual minimum wage. Despite
this requirement, many restaurants violate it BC tipping as the default puts
the burden on the waiter to bother their boss when they didn't make enough.

Imagine instead if when you checked out at Target, you paid the cashier
directly because you didn't trust target to pay them?! The idea seems
ludicrous but apply it to tipping industries and it somehow is normal.

The real culprit is people feel comfortable with what they know and fear
change.

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jghn
I'm pretty sure the number of servers who say "Oh, the previous table tipped
low. I must have done something wrong" is many orders of magnitude lower than
the number of servers who say "Oh, the previous table tipped low. Cheap
bastards".

As you say, I don't understand why people think that tipping actually helps w/
service. OTOH the masses still drag out that incorrect tale of To Insure
Prompt Service

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wccrawford
When my wife and I went to Japan, we received the best service we'd ever had
in every single restaurant, from random burger joints to classy Shabu Shabu
restaurants. (Classy for us, at least.) None of them accepted tips. They just
did their jobs well.

It was just proof for me that tips didn't have anything to do with good
service, not in the long-run or the short-run.

Of course, I tip still, because it's part of their wages and they deserve it.
But I don't for a moment think that it actually teaches them to serve people
better.

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erikw
I'd like to share some anecdotes from my experiences as a waiter.

1\. The people who demand the most service ("This is too cold, take it back",
"Bring me a different fork, this one has a spot on it", etc) tip significantly
below average, and sometimes not at all. This pattern is present just about
everywhere- I see it in IT all the time.

2\. Groups, especially business meetings, are the highest tippers. Serving a
table of 8 isn't significantly harder than serving a table of 2, yet groups
usually still tip based on percentage.

3\. People who use coupons are universally small tippers. I also suspect that
folks with coupons are not likely to be return customers.

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jghn
#2 I find interesting. I thought that the reason for autograts on large
parties is that they tend to tip lower overall?

Although you do seem to be phrasing it in a money vs effort angle than just
the money.

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ghaff
From my experiences on the eating side, I'm not surprised that business
meetings tend to be large tippers. Everyone is (usually) having a good time on
the company dime and the tip is other people's money anyway. The problem with
a group of individuals--specifically where everyone is paying for themselves--
is that some people often don't end up chipping in enough and after a couple
rounds of "we're a bit short here" the waiter ends up eating the shortage.

Even if it doesn't happen a lot, the effect on the waiter who makes 5% off the
group of 25 they've been serving all night can be considerable.

~~~
jghn
Yeah, I was focusing on the group angle, not the business angle.

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anotherevan
Living in a country where tipping is not a big part of the culture, I must
admit I've always found it one of the stranger customs in the USA.

I found the series of articles, "Observations From A Tipless Restaurant" was a
really interesting analysis.

[http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-
tipless-...](http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-
restaurant-part-1-overview/)

~~~
oarsinsync
> 3) The Linkery’s most transgressive act was not in implementing a service
> charge. Our most transgressive act was refusing to allow our guests to pay
> our servers anything more beyond the service charge — this is where the
> angry came out. A certain small number of very vocal men (and it was always
> men who were vocal about it) resented that we were not letting them try to
> exercise additional control over our team members. This was true even though
> compelling research has shown that servers do not adjust quality of service
> as a result of tips; instead the idea that the restaurant was not offering
> our servers up as objects of control, was heresy. For these people, the
> primary service they wanted from the restaurant was the opportunity to pay
> for favors from the server — much like the patron at a strip club pays the
> club for the opportunity to dangle bills in front a dancer for individual
> attention. The idea that a restaurant could legitimately want to be in a
> different business than a strip club, was not an idea these guests could
> countenance. Thus, I was ever subject to witty takedowns like you are a
> douche, along with other well-thought-out gems.

That's a very interesting take.

Good article, thanks for sharing!

~~~
gunshigh
The author makes a huge leap by making assumptions about intention. Some men
may have wanted to give tips because they didn't trust management. Others may
have done so because tipping is a social norm. And yet others may have not
wanted to tip, but objected vocally so that they didn't appear stingy.

~~~
oarsinsync
Sure, meanwhile in part 4 he makes another leap making assumptions about
server intention:

> Our sense was that our weak team members looked at their tips — which of
> course were close to normal since most people don’t adjust their tips much
> for bad service — and concluded that, in spite of what we were suggesting,
> they were already doing sufficiently good work. If I’m good enough to make
> my tips, it’s obvious that I don’t need to improve.

Which from the business perspective, is a real problem.

Or to break it down without the assumption of motivation

> Because tipping correlates weakly to service quality, and because individual
> tips are always subject to interpretation, tipping removes the incentive for
> poor performing servers to improve.

EDIT: or read part 5 if you want some explanation behind the leap in
intention. It helps to read the complete articles! :)

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exclusiv
Tipping is the brilliance of the restaurant industry. Keeps overhead low and
allows them to churn through "employees" with promises of tips.

Some say restaurants can't survive with more costs. Baloney. If you can't pay
a decent wage you don't deserve to exist.

The only people that care about prices going up are the no tippers because the
tippers are subsidizing salaries. The tippers wouldn't notice prices going up
much if any.

~~~
lwhalen
This is similar to the musician's plight of rarely being able to guarantee a
'flat rate' for their performance services - both originals, covers, or a mix
of the two.

~~~
aethos
Could you explain this a bit further?

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jasonjei
I think tipping is so culturally engrained in America that the odds of us
completely switching to a gratuity-included system is about the same as
switching to driving on the left side of the road. Americans will always
lament tipping, but Americans will always view tipping as leverage over the
restaurant. Americans want to have their cake and eat it too (no pun
intended).

I certainly want to see the practice end--I'm constantly reminded by Larry
David's awkward tipping interactions in _Curb Your Enthusiasm_. Ending tipping
will require a lot of mindshare among restaurants for it to work. For the most
part, these restaurants are special snowflakes, and I don't think the practice
will become mainstream anytime soon.

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hermannj314
In a business context, I've never understood the ethics of tipping. It has a
bias for youth and feminine gender and thus I must not use qualitative inputs
when determining my tips without fear of a subconscious bias to cause me to
improperly spend my companies money in a way that may be unethical or possibly
illegal (as both age and gender discrimination are real and I'd like to avoid
them). For this reason, I tip 10% on business trips always when it is
requested and regardless of service quality.

Anything else just seems too close to the definition of graft or bribery for
me to feel comfortable.

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nkrisc
What on Earth is wrong with my countrymen? Tipping should be done away with
and reserved only for truly excellent service.

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DougWebb
Both of those things can't happen at the same time. That's how we ended up
with servers wages getting cut and forced to depend on tips.

If tipping is acceptable at all, it won't stay reserved for only truly
excellent service. It'll become expected for good service, then adequate
service, then any service at all.

~~~
ghaff
That's not necessarily true. I won't tip the concierge at a hotel for telling
me how to get to a nearby restaurant (OK, that's an anachronistic example :-))
but I probably would tip for scoring me some difficult ticket or reservation.

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EliRivers
Sad news.

"They wanted to inspire good service with their tips". It's nice that they
want something. I want a pony. Neither of these things happen.

~~~
techthroway443
This comment doesn't make sense to me.

 _Neither of these things happen._

You are saying tips aren't based on quality of the service?

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toomuchtodo
> That's actually exactly what happens if you are working to get a better tip
> - percent based on your service.

Can you provide a citation? Because all data points to tipping in no way being
connected to the service you provide.

The best way to receive a tip (based on research)? Be female. Be blonde. Have
large breasts.

So lets dispense with this nonsense that tipping incentivizes service workers.
Its a thinly veiled, widespread (successful) attempt at wage theft.

[http://www.tippingresearch.com/most_recent_tipping_papers.ht...](http://www.tippingresearch.com/most_recent_tipping_papers.html)

[http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-
a-n...](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-
freakonomics-radio-podcast/)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/17/abolish-
tipping_n_5...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/17/abolish-
tipping_n_5991796.html)

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techthroway443
> Can you provide a citation?

Have you ever eaten out in your life? How many times have you left a 20
percent tip for a waiter who forgot to put in your order, brought the wrong
food, was mean to you, etc.

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toomuchtodo
> How many times have you left a 20 percent tip

Always. If I have an issue with the service, I take it up with management.

I don't short change someone's wages because of a perceived or actual
deficiency. What am I? Some sort of monster? Just because the rest of society
is cheap and short changes service workers because they can get away with it
(until labor law gets fixed), that does not make it right.

And if you say, "I can't afford to tip 20 percent all the time", well then my
friend, you can't afford to be eating out. Why do you think its more costly to
eat out in Europe than the US? _Because staff are paid a living wage there_.

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techthroway443
Sure you can take it up with management but why are you giving extra money to
the person who just gave you bad service? Tipping is for the quality of
service you receive, and if it's bad service it's absolutely pointless for you
to reward that shitty behavior. By all means go ahead but I'm not sure you
quite understand the point of tipping in the first place

~~~
oarsinsync
> I'm not sure you quite understand the point of tipping in the first place

The point of tipping is to prevent the employer from having to pay a fair
wage. Someone who works in such industries depend on tips for their
livelihoods. Not performing at 100% resulting in a significant drop in
earnings isn't really fair.

Given the typical audience on here, a reasonable comparison would be for
employers to be docking wages based on time spent not working. Given how many
of us visit this site at work, that could be a substantial drop in wages.

Then again, you might be making so much money that it doesn't impact you.
Servers aren't. They might just be having a bad day. Their mistakes on serving
you will have less of an impact on your life than your not tipping them.

Most of them are human beings trying to _survive_. Most of them are not making
enough to do more than that.

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humbleMouse
I was a fine dining server for a couple years. One thing that I saw work well
at another fine dining restaurant was tip-pooling among employees. This way
tipping stays but the waitstaff make a more stable wage - which cuts down on
things like fighting for tables/sections and leaves mental space for employees
to focus on customer service.

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wrp
I'm an American, but have lived in many countries, often where tipping is not
the norm. In general, my experiences with service personnel have been vastly
more pleasant in non-tipping countries. I feel that when people have to angle
for a tip, it poisons the interaction. It's irritating for the customer and
demeaning for the worker. I even avoid going to restaurants when back in the
USA because I expect it to be much less pleasant than I'm accustomed to in
Asia.

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wrp
When I was little, my parents told me to always tip 10%. When I grew up, my
peers told me that 15% was the right amount. These days, the servers tell me
that anything less than 20% is an insult.

Here is a piece from a server arguing for this steady rise. I don't agree, but
there it is. [http://dpo.st/1Tb3rlN](http://dpo.st/1Tb3rlN)

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ghaff
It makes sense that it seems to work better in higher-end restaurants. People
aren't choosing those restaurants based on price (within reason). Mainstream
chains are probably subject to a lot more quick glances at a menu by people
who then decide the food there is too pricey and move on.

It's also hard to change a system that people are used to.

~~~
continuations
On the other hand fast food restaurants are about as low-end as you can get.
Yet they have no problem getting rid of tips there.

~~~
ghaff
Fast-food restaurants don't have servers. The (yes, weirdly specific)
restaurant tipping expectations in the US (and, generally, where tipping is
the custom) revolve specifically around tipping the person who brings you your
food at your table.

~~~
abalashov
When picking up carry-out orders, I always leave a $3-4 tip when signing the
card receipt for it. Is this considered a faux pas, then?

~~~
douche
I would suspect that you are just overpaying the business, at that point.

To be honest, unless I'm leaving cash, I have my doubts about whether the tip
actually makes it to the server.

~~~
placeybordeaux
> To be honest, unless I'm leaving cash, I have my doubts about whether the
> tip actually makes it to the server.

I would be shocked to hear of any restaurants that do that. A warning sign
would be the owner running the register.

And for one data point: the restaurant I worked at would convert all tips on
credit cards to cash that the servers could take home that day at end of
business.

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lightlyused
I ate there several weeks ago, and asked one of the wait staff about this.
Person said they were making less money. Glad to see this decision gone. BTW,
service was still very good.

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ythl
Liberals are idealists, not realists.

"Pay staff a living wage and abolish tips" is a great _idea_ , but it doesn't
work well in practice.

Cue the liberals with their new line: "Pay the staff a living wage _in
addition_ to tips!"

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marssaxman
Works well in lots of places. Tipping is an obsolescent, faux-aristocratic
relic of a social hierarchy I would strongly prefer to read about in history
books and not to experience in daily life.

~~~
ghaff
I have no issue with tipping people who do things for me that go above and
beyond. I'm much less in favor of building tipping into interactions where
it's customary and expected (especially when different parties will invariably
have different ideas about what is customary and expected).

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67726e
I hate how there are all sorts of random situations where I'm expected to tip.
I've been told I'm supposed to tip at the car wash, when getting a tattoo, or
using a food runner (do I tip the UPS driver?) - it's all senseless.and
strikes me as a money grab against good natured folks.

~~~
ghaff
The US can be really crazy. Part of the issue is that you have to understand
compensation models--for example, my understanding is that like waiters,
delivery drivers largely work for tips (usually). But, especially when
traveling, there are a gazillion situations where a dollar here or a dollar
there seems to be routinely expected sometimes. I suspect that I don't leave
tips in some situations where many people do. (No, I don't routinely leave a
few dollars a night for my hotel room servicing.)

No to UPS driver. Tattoo? No idea but probably given that I tip my barber.

