
Our sons' student debt is delaying our retirement - option_greek
http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/30/retirement/student-debt-delaying-retirement/index.html
======
monroepe
A Bachelor's degree doesn't really do that much for you these days. It's
become like a high school diploma was 30 years ago (which almost no one paid
for). I keep trying to advocate that people not go so far in debt for a
college degree. For med school or law school (although I would argue that this
is not a great investment with the current glut of law school grads) it makes
sense to go into debt of that size. But I don't think you can or should
justify student loans of over $10k for undergrad. Maybe you could stretch that
to $20k, but I wouldn't (and didn't). If you can't afford a college don't go
there.

I left college with ~$3k in student loan debt. I went to a liberal arts
college that costs ~$60k a year with room and board. My family definitely
could not have afforded to send me there, but I got a lot of scholarships and
financial aid. I ended up with a job that had nothing to do with my education
there. I value the experience I had there, but it was not worth $60k a year by
any means.

There is a lot of benefit to college education, but not everyone needs to go
to their dream school. Not everyone drives their dream car or lives in their
dream home.

~~~
odonnellryan
Few friends went to a state school in NJ and lived at home - literally could
not get cheaper than this situation for us - and they ended up with between 20
and 40 thousand of student loans.

Yes, they did work part time. But 100-200 a week from a part time job doesn't
go far. That's gas and lunch.

They certainly got some aid other than loans, but I do not know the level of
scholarships they received. Might have been their problem!

~~~
kamaal
>>and they ended up with between 20 and 40 thousand of student loans.

Doesn't seem much, if you continue the same student life style after getting a
job, that kind of debt can be seen through in 1.5-2 years.

After that every thing you earn is yours.

~~~
odonnellryan
I don't think it is that bad. They got decent jobs.

------
replicatorblog
I was a writer for Wired Magazine for three years and never took a single
class in journalism, and nothing beyond the required english classes in
college.

I think we need to do more to help educate parents and prospective students
that in most cases a college degree is next to worthless. For-profit schools
like the University of Phoenix get a lot of negative press, but how about
these little known colleges referenced in the story that charge nearly as much
as top of the line schools? Sadly, many colleges (most?) are simply outgrowths
of an overgenerous loan subsidy program run by the government.

If you want to enter a credentialed field, be it education, medicine, or
law—by all means get a degree.

Likewise, if you're going into a highly technical field, it's a wise
investment to study intensively.

Most psych/business majors would be better served working their way up through
the ranks.

In 90% of creative fields you're much better off just "doing it." I got my job
at Wired by writing on my blog and getting the attention of the editor-in-
chief. If you want to be a filmmaker, make films—same with music, art, etc. I
essentially got paid for my "graduate school" in writing.

This is easier said than done when most entry level gigs require a college
degree, but you can still get an affordable degree at most state universities.
Also, we should be talking more at the political level about vocational
education and non-degree training programs to prepare people for the
workforce.

~~~
intopieces
>I think we need to do more to help educate parents and prospective students
that in most cases a college degree is next to worthless.

Do you have a source for this? The Bureau of Labor Statistics says the exact
opposite. [0]

>Most psych/business majors would be better served working their way up
through the ranks.

Source? Again and again, people only seem to look at the cost of education
like education is a product that you buy at a store that could be gotten
cheaper if you follow this One Weird Trick. College education is an
experience, an exposure to new ideas, a gradual development of ancillary
skills.

>This is easier said than done when most entry level gigs require a college
degree, but you can still get an affordable degree at most state universities.

Why would anyone bother to get an affordable degree when they are "in most
cases... next to worthless?"

Again, another person who went to college advocating that other people don't
go to college. Every time this topic comes up, people who have clearly
benefitted from higher education start claiming no one else needs a college
education.

The same attitude that led us into the student loans debacle -- "education is
a product" \-- is the same attitude that pervades every thread about this
topic, but somehow the participants think they've 'hacked' the system by
advocating people not get an education. It's bizarrely short sighted by
otherwise educated individuals.

[0][http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm](http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm)

~~~
theseatoms
Those who earn bachelor's degrees do indeed earn more than those with only a
high school education. But many people are vastly overpaying for this benefit.

Not to mention that this is not a controlled experiment. Maybe those who earn
degrees would have earned more anyway. (Though I do suspect that college is
very beneficial, for the reasons you cite.)

~~~
monroepe
>But many people are vastly overpaying for this benefit.

Exactly. I don't have any issues with getting a degree. I think it is very
beneficial both financially in the long term and emotionally. But you
shouldn't overpay for it. There is nothing wrong with community college. There
is nothing wrong with putting off college for a year or two to save money.
Obviously every situation is different, but I think we should be educating
high school students about their options and their prospects.

~~~
intopieces
>There is nothing wrong with putting off college for a year or two to save
money

Positively agree. In fact, I think entering college directly after high school
is absurd. We should encourage if not require everyone to take a year off to
really decide what they want before entering college. Lots of people I know
who ended up dropping out with debt and no degree reported to me that they
were not ready for college and they only went because it was the "thing you're
supposed to do."

~~~
monroepe
I entered not knowing what I wanted to do at all and ended up with a history
major, which hasn't really been all that useful to me. I discovered too late
that I loved programming for me to switch majors to cs.

Now I am not saying that waiting a year or two would have helped me pick a
better major, because I still might not have found my passion for programming.
But I do know that I would have studied harder and learned more during those
years. My grades were fine, but I really did just enough to get good grades. I
didn't take advantage of the learning opportunity because I was immature. I
would love to go back now and really learn.

------
ams6110
Never cosign a loan. There is one reason that lenders required a co-signer --
they know that the borrower is high risk for defaulting.

If you can't afford or didn't save for college, go to a cheaper school. In-
state tuition and fees at most state universities is more than it used to be
but still generally under $10K a year. There is no reason to go into six-digit
debt for an undergraduate degee.

With very few exceptions, once you get your first job, nobody cares where you
got your undergrad degree (if even then).

~~~
tw04
Given that you can't get out of student loan debt through bankruptcy, they're
at basically no risk. It might take them your entire lifetime to collect, but
they'll get it eventually unless you happen to kill yourself at a young age.

~~~
lxmorj
What happens if you stop living in the US? (I realize very few people would do
this, but I'm curious)

~~~
cpursley
If you leave the US, you don't stop being a US Citizen unless you revoke your
citizenship. And most nations won't allow you to become a citizen if you have
foreign debts.

Also, expect to see more of these types of rules, since many student loans are
backed by US Government entities:
[http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2015/12/...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2015/12/22/irs-
gains-power-get-tax-scofflaws-passports-revoked/77417570/)

> A new enforcement provision passed by Congress and signed into law earlier
> this month allows the government to revoke the passports of seriously
> delinquent tax scofflaws — people who owe more than $50,000 to Uncle Sam.

~~~
GFischer
"most nations won't allow you to become a citizen if you have foreign debts"

How will they know? AFAIK, my country, which has pretty lenient rules, only
asks for proof of no criminal record at the time the application is filled.

On the other hand, you can and will be extradited to the U.S. if you were
found breaking their laws and their legal system does ask.

------
carsongross
_a bachelor 's degree in journalism and media studies._

 _He 's especially interested in a Hollywood career, but has found it hard to
land a job there._

These folks went into debt to the tune of nearly 4x the average american pre-
tax income, for a theater degree.

No, the lenders shouldn't have let them do that... but come on.

~~~
JPKab
Agreed.

I went to an affordable, in-state university. My father was wise enough to
advise me that I was taking on debt for myself, and should think very hard
about the economic consequences of my decision.

Some parents are just way too nice to their kids, and these two are in that
bracket.

I've found it very amusing as I've grown up to notice this is a pattern in
otherwise well-meaning, financially successful baby-boomer parents: in stark
contrast with my father and other parents like him, they seem to encourage
their children to pursue their dreams without any regard to reality. I suspect
my father's financial struggles gave him a sense of practicality that some of
the executives I work with never had in advising their own kids.

I have 3 executives I've reported to in the past year. One of them subsidizes
her 30 year old daughter's life of studying Middle Eastern cultures. Another
subsidizes his son's death metal band (which he abandoned his Music degree
midway for), and the third is paying for his daughter's failing business,
openly complaining about the fact that she doesn't seem to show up for work
very often and has hired people despite lacking revenue to even pay for
herself.

Parents enabling bad decisions is never a good thing.

~~~
FireBeyond
I've always found that to be a cultural oddity. Growing up in Australia your
parents almost never paid for your first car. I'd estimate 1% or less. And it
was a source of pride. Your first car might have been a barely roadworthy
beater/clunker but it was yours.

Here in the US, there's still some expectation that there's a good chance
that, if your parents can afford it, they'll buy your first car. Certainly not
an absolute, but definitely a much more commonplace expectation.

Some of this is due to other factors too, admittedly. Parents in the US seem
to spend more time as chauffeurs than in Australia, often due to the mostly
inferior public transit systems.

------
n0us
"Sean is now pursuing another bachelor's degree, this time in computer
science, from the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg. He is
paying for this degree as he goes, with help from an internship program with
the U.S. Navy."

Smart move. Maybe he will pay it all down some day. In this thread there are a
lot of people saying you shouldn't take out a lot of loans to get a degree
like journalism, and you shouldn't. I agree that is the type of degree that I
would encourage someone to get as a second major, and/or from a state school.

Part of the problem here is that all of these people's parents grew up in a
different time period where having a technical major was less important,
schools were much cheaper, and it was easier to find jobs in general. Combine
this with the utter lack of skilled and proper advising for freshmen coming
into college.

You get there and you are 18 years old, have little concept of money and
underdeveloped judgement skills. Then you go to your advisor who is a scatter-
brained English professor with books all over his office. Advising for him is
just one of those things you have to do as a professor but he isn't really
there to advise and has no idea what to tell you, or his 100 other advisees.
So then he asks you what you like and you tell him you like writing. There you
go, major in journalism. Even then, some people might want to sign up for CS
or Business but they lose the class signup lottery because those departments
are under funded and don't have enough sections. Then they lose again for the
next 3 semesters and are forced to declare a major in classes that they
already have experience in.

There is no point where they explain the value of a degree to you and it can
be difficult to understand for most people until they are 2 or 3 years in and
suddenly realize that they are stuck in this path and can't go back to change
majors because it would take more school and they can't take on more debt. You
can't drop out and start over later because then you have to start paying
those loans and don't have a degree at all.

tl;dr; it isn't just these kids making bad decisions, it is a dysfunctional
system that leads people down paths that are convenient for the school, not
necessarily for the students.

~~~
Throwaway12141
> "Sean is now pursuing another bachelor's degree, this time in computer
> science, from the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg. He is
> paying for this degree as he goes, with help from an internship program with
> the U.S. Navy."

... or he could have just driven 40 minutes north and gotten a CS degree at
George Mason University, which is a far, _far_ better program than Mary
Washington. OR if out of state tuition is not an issue, he could have driven
another 30 minutes further and gotten a CS degree at U Maryland, which hovers
in the top 15. Both of which are basically the same price as Mary Washington.
Is it worth mentioning that the Navy has close connections to both schools?
Particularly GMU.

Indeed of nearby schools, the following are all superior to Mary Washington in
CS and cost about the same: GMU, U Maryland, Virginia Tech, UVA, ODU, VCU.

So one son decided to blow $200K on a journalism degree, and his parents
helped him. Now the other son, already $60K in the hole, is going back to
school, and has picked the worst of several options to get a computer science
degree. And no doubt his parents are helping him again. One wonders if the
problem is the parents.

~~~
cpursley
There's another option that's even cheaper. My training to enter software
development was less than $1,000 (various books and online courses + plus lots
of hours behind the keyboard). While that might not provide a _deep_ CS
background, its _enough_ to become a competent developer to build real things
and obtain a job. And if someone feels like they still need that CS degree, do
so after entering the field and pay tuition out of pocket along the way.

------
DickingAround
$200k for journalism and media studies was a bad investment. It's a tough
message, but you have to invest in education more intelligently than 'throw
money at it and hope for the best'.

~~~
richerlariviere
The U.S. educationnal system is wrong. If you go to Canada, you will pay less
than 30k$ for you entire program. It's illogical to waste 4 years if you don't
have solid chances to get a job and make it profitable, maybe it is not the
place to go and/or the career to follow.

~~~
marknutter
Getting a journalism degree in Canada doesn't somehow make it more viable. We
don't need more journalists, plain and simple. Nobody should be paying money
to become journalists.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>We don't need more journalists, plain and simple.

I disagree. In a country with free press, journalists play a critical role in
uncovering truths and disseminating the information among the public.

The problem is that the vast majority of people with the title "journalist"
today aren't really journalists. They're just brain-dead writers for news
conglomerates and PR firms. And yes, getting a degree just for that is dumb.
But if you want to become an _investigative_ journalist, then getting a degree
for it is a very good idea.

~~~
serge2k
There is a difference between not needing more journalists and not needing
journalists.

------
wmil
The real solution to this is to open up some kind of bond market for majors.
Bundle up a bunch of student loans by major and create a partly public partly
private debt obligations.

Schools have far too much incentive to lie about the value of different
degrees. Parents and high school advisors don't have the necessary
information.

A market device would give students the feedback they need to plan their
futures.

Plus if large employers ever complain about the skills that grads are lacking,
they can be asked to invest in the appropriate student loan category.

~~~
tacostakohashi
There is already a lot of information available about the labor market in
general, and colleges are also required to provide gainful employment
statistics for graduates. Despite this, it seems that many students make poor
decisions, probably for more subtle reasons (easy availability of loans,
wanting to experience college, wanting a gap between school and work, etc).

Securitizing student loans by major and having a liquid market for the
securities is an interesting idea, but its hard for me to imagine that the
information provided would have any impact on this problem. If students,
counselors, etc already ignore the plentiful labor market statistics
available, a I'm sure they'll have no trouble ignoring a proxy for those
statistics.

------
pessimizer
Shouldn't it? They're under 60 and they cosigned on $200K of debt. If they
really thought that that they could afford be retired right now, coming up
with another $200K should only take a few years between the four of them.

They'd still be retiring earlier than anyone that I know who isn't wealthy.
Ideally they'd have cut the taps at some point before their child spent $130K
on a "journalism and media studies" degree in order to be an _actor_ , but I
understand that nobody's invented a time machine yet.

------
cryoshon
All of the people here writing about how these people shouldn't have picked
non-STEM majors are missing the point entirely.

These people in the article are the population we've got, not the population
we want to have; Monday morning quarterbacking is completely useless, as the
debt is already accrued. To state it again: this is the population we actually
have. They are not technically skilled, but they are educated and heavily
indebted. They were told "go to college, get any degree, and you will have
success." This was not accurate, and now, we have an entire generation that is
suffering.

Student loan debt is smashing the potential of the millenials and is now
increasingly seen as a massive burden on their parents and (mostly uncreated,
due to insufficient funds) children as well. Large-scale debt relief is
mandatory at this point, as all of the money siphoned to debt maintenance is
severely limiting the amount of demand that the economy's primary consumers
are able to create. Millenials aren't buying homes, aren't having kids, aren't
buying cars, aren't able to put their parents into nursing homes, etc.

The parents of the millenials typically have some wealth that can be
extracted, and so, it's on the chopping block. This is why loans have
cosigners-- so that their bank accounts can be emptied, too.

Debt slavery is the reality we live in, and predictably, debtors parents
aren't thrilled that their retirement is being siphoned away by their
children's debt.

As I said, this debt is a massive drag on the economy, and debt relief is
mandatory. Unfortunately, there's not so much going on politically right now,
so I think that a mass student debt boycott is a better decision. It's
unlikely that the lenders will be bankrupted, but it'll send a message at
least. Sure, they'll ruin everyone's credit and dock people's wages, but that
can only be sustained until there's white riots due to poverty. And it'll
probably take riots to end this debt slavery-- it takes riots to fix things in
a broken country.

------
rayiner
I see a lot of people blaming the government for college costs, but the fact
is that, unlike for graduate school loans, the amount of guaranteed
undergraduate loans individuals can take on is capped at $12,500 Stafford + up
to $5,500 in Perkins loans. Beyond that you need parents to sign on for PLUS
loans, which require a credit check.

The real problem is that we've been indoctrinated to overvalue education and
artificial college rankings. If you're a Virginia resident, going to UVA will
cost you almost $30,000 a year, in-state, including room and board (unless
your parents happen to live in Charlottesville). But you can go to George
Mason for only $11,000 a year living at home. But few people who can get into
UVA go to GMU because you're giving up a lot of job prospects in the process,
plus have to deal with the "commuter college" stigma. And employers don't
really ascribe a much higher value to a UVA education versus a GMU one--they
just want to sort people who managed to get into UVA from people who didn't.

------
swalsh
It's amazing that someone with virtually no life experience (12 years in grade
school?) has to make this huge life decision on what they want to go to school
for. Do they want to be an artist, maybe an engineer? They then get thousands
of dollars in loans to go pursue it.

It's probably the second biggest monetary investment in their life (if they
buy a house), but probably the least educated investment.

Now, some people get amazing help in high school while making this decision.
They have extremely intelligent parents, a very supportive school
counselor/teachers etc.

But a lot, and I know this from experience have zero help. I know today that
if i'm going to invest a hundred thousand dollars in a college education I
should probably try to know what the market 5+ years from now will be (good
luck with that) maybe I should know what the ROI is on that degree... maybe I
should know how competitive the labor market is/will be.

When i was 18 graduating from school I had zero help with this process. Zero.
I was told "pursue what you love". How do you expect an (average) 18 year old
to make this evaluation?

In my perfect world, we would increase business taxes to pay for higher
education, those taxes would then be given directly to programs. Programming
industry needs more programmers? easy give more money to computer science
education. Students of course will still apply to programs they're most
interested in, but in a competitive industry they'll get rejected BEFORE they
make the major investment. If it takes a congressional act to change industry
taxes, you can be assured someone is going to do some studies on how much each
program will need. It's better to have a professional do that, than to hope
the student maybe looks into it.

Finally how many jobs ask for a bachelors that just don't need it? If you
start asking companies to pay for that education, they might make a better
evaluation if its necessary.

Things just get more efficient, perhaps less "fair", but I don't life
crippling debt is fair either.

------
andmarios
From a different point of view, the parents are age 57 and 59 and if
everything went well, they would already have retired.

In contrast, European Union asks Greece (and other PIIGS countries) to set the
minimum retirement age at 67 if it wants to stay a member...

~~~
theandrewbailey
> From a different point of view, the parents are age 57 and 59 and if
> everything went well, they would already have retired.

Things would have to have gone really well to retire before 60 in USA. Most
Americans don't even consider retiring until at least that, often 65.

------
treerunner
No doubt higher Ed is a mess in the US but this could just as easily be an
article about attachment parenting gone array. The article mentions that their
son is waiting on a dream career in Hollywood. One would think that critical
skills gained from a media studies degree would be useful in unpacking the
myth of cracking into the big time. Perhaps he would have a better chance if
he took himself out of the multitudes of the uninspired waiting to be
discovered and instead did something to help his family with their problem.

------
gd78
Wow, living in Germany I graduated in CS with ~7k in loans. Just the idea that
a government does not pay its childrens education is freakin me out and from
my perspective seems to be a neo liberalism horror story.

~~~
pigpaws
college professors in the States need to be compensated at the same rate as
company CEOs. EVERYONE 'deserves' a flat screen 4k TV, a brand new car every 3
years and 7%+ gains on any and all investments, otherwise, it isn't "fair".

~~~
tostitos1979
Umm .. no.

As someone who was a lecturer for a top CS dept, I can tell you that
professors do not get compensated the same as CEOs. You can use google to
check salaries for public university professors in many places (since this
information is public). When a CS PhD accepts a job at a University, they take
a pay cut from what the private sector pays. A full professor makes under
200K, and that is at the top of the stack. The average take for assistant and
associate profs (at top CS schools in North America) is more like 130-140K.
Not what CEOs make!

~~~
Futurebot
Not to mention how many professors are being replaced by adjuncts ("Overall,
non-tenure- track faculty, often known as adjunct or contingent faculty, now
account for three-quarters of the instructional faculty at non-profit colleges
and universities across the country."):
[http://agb.org/trusteeship/2013/5/changing-academic-
workforc...](http://agb.org/trusteeship/2013/5/changing-academic-workforce)

Those adjuncts are often contingent, low-paid workers:
[http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/poverty-u-
many...](http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/poverty-u-many-adjunct-
professors-food-stamps-n336596)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/opinion/your-waitress-
your...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/opinion/your-waitress-your-
professor.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0)

[http://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-college-so-
expensive...](http://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-college-so-expensive-if-
professors-are-paid-so-little/)

The numbers you present themselves are in the top 25% or 33% (depending on
which measure you look at) of earners as professors, all inclusive. The idea
that most professors are well-compensated on the whole is absurd. Wasn't the
old deal supposed to be "decent compensation, but not great, made up for with
great benefits and tenure?" Now it's "terrible compensation and no benefits,
no tenure."

Of course, the person you're responding to seems to be making their comment
sarcastically in any case.

------
jackcosgrove
For that amount of money, the parents could have purchased a cheap condo for
each of their children, and have the children rent it out as a source of
income that would be more stable than a knowledge economy job attainable with
their children's interests. Or the child could live in the condo. At this
point, a condo is actually more useful than most degrees.

------
ck2
$130k on a journalism degree which is rapidly becoming a professional blogger?

This is a first-world, lack of common-sense problem.

------
seivan
Not looking forward to the large groups graduating with
gender/culture/journalist degrees. A large generation lost. The smarter ones
will figure out how to squeeze money from government grants like they do in
Sweden.

------
tailgate
At this point I wonder if they're better off selling their house and moving to
Mexico or something.

------
joshstrange
Guidance counselors across this country are massively failing the students who
turn to them for... guidance. Mine pushed me into AP/Honors classes for
subjects I had almost zero interest in causing me to get B's when I could have
easily gotten A's in the regular classes (Comp Sci was the exception, I'm glad
I took the AP version of that, at both A and AB levels). Even with my score on
the ACT being very good I wasn't able to qualify for certain loans through my
college (and some privates ones/grants) due to a lower (un-weighted) GPA which
increased my tutiation.

This coupled with a complete lack of understanding how student loans work or
what I would be responsible for (I take 100% responsibility for this failing I
just wish there had been more education on the issue). Now I've got some ~$60K
left in student loans and I didn't even finish college because all of my job
prospects said they didn't care about a degree if I could do the work required
(software engineer). I am, thankfully, able to make the payments on them but
(and again, I take full responsibility) student loans were practically billed
as "Free money" and just "something everyone did"... The "good debt" to
have... What a load of BS.

I liked my college experience and the life-long friends I made but knowing
what I know now I might have cut my college even shorter or possibly not gone
as I was able to get a part-time job (I could have worked full time if I had
wanted) in my first semester at school in my field... This will not hold for
all majors of course but the college (and high school) system sells college as
a job ticket and that couldn't be further from the truth in today's world.

------
TrevorJ
If you co-sign a loan it's not your son's debt, it's _your_ debt.

~~~
dragonwriter
> If you co-sign a loan it's not your son's debt, it's _your_ debt.

Actually, if you _co_ -sign, its both, and primarily the son's.

~~~
TrevorJ
My point is, one of personal responsibility. You are agreeing that if the need
arises you are willing to be 'on the hook' for the money owed. It isn't their
son's debt that is keeping them from retiring, it is the choice that they made
to co-sign the loan.

------
jld89
Just go for a few years and get your degree in europe. Education in most
countries is almost free of charge (between 100€ and 500€ _a year_ )

So you can get a degree for 7k€ (if you live relatively well if you are
thrifty it will be less than that. this without working part time, this
_includes living expenses_ ) per year. So in total 21k€ max. That is 23k
USD(Jan, 2016 rate). That is what you would pay in 1 year in a low level
college in the US, without the living expenses! (All this even if you are a
foreigner)

Why pay that when you can study in the Sorbonne or in the Freie Universität
Berlin? There are even degrees in English.

Admittedly one needs to talk the language (french, german) but it is
definitely worth it. Not to talk about the experience you get for the money.

PS: This is what I did, currently doing my masters degree in Engineering in
France.

------
sakopov
While majoring in Computer Science at MU, not a fancy school by any means, i
had a job in my field on the third year of school and by the time i graduated
i had a few years of development experience. Most folks I communicated with in
school had similar experience. Those who didn't were typically foreign
students. Do other majors not work this way? It baffles me how someone went
through their college career, at a prestigious school at that, and couldn't
get some kind of job/internship.

------
duked
I don't want to be harsh but the reality is either you can afford to try a
very hard path such as "bachelor's degree in journalism and media studies."
where it seems competencies don't really matter or you push your kids to study
something where the odds of finding a jobs are higher.

Unfortunately it seems like, journalism, acting, professional sports is not
about talent but about who you meet and when :/

May be I'm a pessimist but that's how I feel about certain jobs/career paths.

------
barney54
These are important stories to hopefully make people thing more critically
about not only the value of college, but the value of your degree. For
example, a degree in journalism today doesn't really seem to convey much
value.

------
mwhuang2
I recommend the book "Worthless: The Young Person's Indispensable Guide to
Choosing the Right Major" by Aaron Clarey for a brutally honest, if
exaggerated, take on higher education and employment.

------
cpursley
I wonder if allowing bankruptcy for student loans would allow the market to
price them correctly (based on job prospects, etc)?

------
brador
What would it take to completely wipe out all student debt? In theory, could a
Presidents pen stroke do it?

~~~
DrScump
Obama has already done such a giveaway, writing off student loans for certain
schools that were paper mills and shut down once they got any scrutiny. The
loser? Taxpayers.

Instead of discharging that debt, he could have offered to _apply_ that
balance to genuine, accredited programs (e.g. if the student had $80K in debt
principal, she could get the first $80K taken from that balance instead of new
debt). In other words, they made that money commitment in search of a degree
-- they shouldn't just dump all that on the taxpayers with no societal gain
from it.

Another parallel taxpayer-funded debt reduction done by the current
administration was to change such windfalls to non-taxable (as regular income,
as it always had been), again at the expense of other taxpayers.

------
will_brown
It is important to know and not perpetuate the myths about student loans...

-Federally guaranteed student loans _can_ be discharged in bankruptcy (it is just a different standard than other debts); and

-Federal plus loans (a type of educational loan for parents) can also be discharged, not just through bankruptcy but also directly through the US Department of Education, for example one program is for permanent and total disability, and with the aging population more and more parents with $100,000's in loans for their kids will be eligible for this discharge.

~~~
otterley
> -Federally guaranteed student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy (it is
> just a different standard than other debts)

As a practical matter, it is not dischargeable. The standard is nearly
impossible to meet.

~~~
will_brown
>The standard is nearly impossible to meet.

Not really, the standard is "undue hardship". The problem is the myth...Of
~900,000 bankruptcy filings in 2014 only ~700 listed student loans as a debt
to be discharged, of that number do you know how many were successfully
discharged? The truth is of ~900,000 bankruptcies vastly more were eligible to
have student loans discharged but didn't because they didn't even try.

As a lawyer I have personally worked with a client to have a >$100,000 parent
loan discharged directly with the US Dept of Education, and in no way would
this client come close to being eligible for a normal bankruptcy.

~~~
otterley
Did the lender contest? Was the bankruptcy actually adjudicated? Your client
may well have just gotten lucky. The Brunner test is a tough one to pass.

~~~
will_brown
Discharge through bankruptcy and discharge through the US Dept of Education
are different reliefs.

In bankruptcy, available statistics show educational loans are discharged, in
whole/part, 50% of the time when attempted.

My client's loan was discharged through the US Dept of Education. Unlike
bankruptcy a lender can't contest, there is no adjudication because the matter
does not go to court and a lawyer really isn't needed.

It surely isn't luck. While most people falsely believe student loans can't be
discharged in bankruptcy, even more don't even have any idea there is a
separate process to discharge student loans directly through the US Dept of
Education.

~~~
otterley
Does the DoE's ability to discharge student loan debts include private student
loans, or only federally subsidized ones? My understanding is that the DoE has
no legal interest in the former. Also, for many students, private loan
obligations dwarf federal loan obligations.

Also, under which criteria did your client receive loan forgiveness?
Total/permanent disability? TPD will only apply to only a small fraction of
borrowers; bankruptcy is much more difficult to attain a discharge under.

~~~
will_brown
As far as I am aware DoE can discharge any loans they originate (subsidized,
subsidized and PLUS loans). Between sub and unsub that covers up to
~$18k/year, meanwhile only 1 in 10 student end up with over $40k total. PLUS
loans are probably closer to private loans in obligation as parent loans can
cover multiple children.

In my client's case it was >$100k of parent PLUS loans, discharged under TPD.
Statistics suggest TPD could apply to as many as 20% of borrowers. Again this
number will only increase as baby boomers get older. I don't know if "small
fraction" is a fair description or not of 20%, but that would still mean >$12B
of parent plus loans alone are eligible for discharge under DoE TPD.

One problem I experience first hand as a lawyer is potential clients who
actually are eligible but they don't believe it. Worse they think it is some
type of scam, because they believe it is impossible to discharge student
loans. Something tells me if I discharged >$100k in student loans for a parent
as a SV startup rather than in my capacity as a lawyer, I might be hailed as
disrupting student loan debt rather than lucky.

