
FTC Brings First Case Challenging Fake Paid Reviews on an Indie Retail Website - minimaxir
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2019/02/ftc-brings-first-case-challenging-fake-paid-reviews-independent
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potatofarmer45
There are so many fake reviews on Amazon that the "average" stars for a
product are no longer reliable indicators of quality. Especially for cheap
electronics (read: headphones), products that have only been listed for a
month somehow have hundreds of 5 star glowing reviews.

When I do research nowadays I have to deliberately select the 1 star reviews
to see if there is a real issue that's glossed over by the paid reviews.

~~~
duskwuff
Or reviews that were transferred over from other products. Here's a case in
point:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MH9HPTR](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MH9HPTR)

Over 3000 reviews... most of them for products completely unrelated to the one
on sale. I see reviews for a bicycle lamp, a phone screen protector, and a
voltage converter.

This seems like a bug. Surely Amazon shouldn't allow sellers to transfer
product reviews over from other products?

~~~
organsnyder
They're abusing the "color" parameter to be multiple products instead. It's
astounding that Amazon has yet to actively prohibit this.

~~~
toufiqbarhamov
Nothing about Amazon’s abuse of their customers surprises me anymore. Their
“Amazon’s Recommemdation” is a joke too, and they’re associating their brand
with garbage.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gflpf0DrCgw](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gflpf0DrCgw)

Par for the Amazon course, cheap Chinese knockoffs. If they had anything other
than a highly permissive refund system, they’d already be drowning in
lawsuits. They must bleed refund money though, and I thought Bezos was all
about right margins?

~~~
macintux
What percentage of customers go through the refund process? I think I refund
maybe one purchase every 4-5 years, for all of my retail activity combined. I
don't believe I've ever bothered with Amazon.

~~~
howard941
I wish I was as discerning a buyer. I send back half of what I get off of
Amazon, something like once every other month. By volume it's a lot more than
I return anywhere else except for games impulse purchased and "returned" to
Valve on Steam.

~~~
gumby
> I send back half of what I get off of Amazon

If you return too much stuff amazon will cut you off:
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/05/23/a...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/05/23/amazon-
bans-customers-who-return-too-many-orders/636089002/)

~~~
spookthesunset
I'm sure the people who get cut off are serious outliers though. Like so far
out there it is obvious that they should be cut off.

~~~
Judgmentality
The article mentioned one example of someone returning around 1/10 items.
Considering how bad their counterfeit problem is now, I'd say that's pretty
low when an uninformed customer could probably expect more than that many
items to be disingenuous.

~~~
stordoff
If it's around 1/10, it must be over a long period of time. There have
certainly been periods where I've returned _way_ more than that, including
things like 'These headphones I bought a year ago have broke, this hard drive
I bought 6 months ago has stopped working, AND I'd like to return this
expensive item I've just bought, and the only other things I've bought
recently are £5-10 books'.

I suspect it's more likely to be done on total purchase _price_ - I spend a
fair amount of money on things that are very difficult to counterfeit (video
games), so they are obviously never returned, which probably tips the balance
back in my favour (the fact that I'm in the EU, and have a statutory right to
return (for any reason) may also be a factor).

------
elektor
Last year I bought a set of cheap Bluetooth headphones on Amazon which I use
on a daily basis. It's obvious they have an affiliate program because I often
seem on those daily deal roundup posts that a lot of tech blogs now have.

Recently, I've been getting emails from the vendors asking me to leave a
review in return for a free product. Here is a copy and paste of one:

Dear Customer,

Thank you for purchasing our (HEADPHONES). Are you satisfied with the
Bluetooth headphones that you bought? If there is any question or concern
regarding product quality, please don't hesitate to contact us first.

If your (BRAND) experience has been everything you hoped it would be, share it
with the world! Meanwhile, to express our sincere thanks for your kind
support, we are more than happy to send you a (FREE PRODUCT) for free if you
are willing to leave us a review since this would be very helpful for other
customers who are also interested in this product.

If you are interested in a (FREE PRODUCT), please get back to us with the
screenshot of your review.

Note: you can click the link below directly to leave your positive review:
(LINK TO AMAZON TO LEAVE REVIEW)

Please rest assured that we’ll arrange (FREE PRODUCT) to you ASAP after we
receive the screenshot of your review together with your shipping address.

Any questions, please kindly let us know.

Have a nice day!

~~~
dontbenebby
>If you are interested in a (FREE PRODUCT), please get back to us with the
screenshot of your review.

>Note: you can click the link below directly to leave your positive review:
(LINK TO AMAZON TO LEAVE REVIEW)

>Please rest assured that we’ll arrange (FREE PRODUCT) to you ASAP after we
receive the screenshot of your review together with your shipping address.

It'd be interesting to see what they do if you left a neutral review. (Eg:
"Three stars. Cheap build quality but decent for the price I guess").

I suspect they're trying to maintain the illusion they're not paying for
_positive_ reviews, just for reviews.

If they're dumb enough to reply back over email that only positive reviews
qualify, you could probably forward that to a regulator.

~~~
uodtl
Can't you edit the review or just take it back once you've received (FREE
PRODUCT)?

~~~
haggy
It's a numbers game. Most people aren't going to go back and edit it. They'll
leave their 5 star review and hold their hand out for FREE PRODUCT.

------
omouse
FINALLY.

 _" In addition, the order requires the defendants to notify Amazon, Inc. that
they purchased Amazon reviews of their Quality Encapsulations Garcinia
Cambogia capsules and to identify to Amazon the purchased reviews."_

Online reviews don't work without _trust_. Maintaining trust is done by Amazon
in this case, but sometimes the job is too big, especially at this scale.
Amazon needs better tools perhaps, but the judgement of a court, backed up by
a state? Damn, that is a powerful way to ensure there is some minimum level of
trust in the marketplace.

I'm against too much government interference in the marketplace, but it's in
everyone's interest to _increase trust_ in the marketplace rather than let it
become a market for lemons.

~~~
kanox
> FINALLY

Identities in comment sections have always been fake and anonymous and this is
a good thing even if it results in occasional spam reviews. Legal action to
enforce real IDs would make the internet _worse_.

I don't get it. I'd expect highly technical forums to value anonymity despite
its drawbacks but I'm continuously disappointed.

~~~
omouse
_Identities in comment sections have always been fake and anonymous and this
is a good thing even if it results in occasional spam reviews_

Comments are not the same as reviews.

This is why Amazon, for example, has "verified purchase" status for reviews.
Reviews can influence a buying decision and are integrated as part of a
platform. Comments can influence a buying decision but they live outside the
platform and can _always_ be made anonymously on any other platform.

The issue in this case was someone purchased fraudulent reviews on someone
else's platform where the platform's integrity is severely diminished through
that fraud.

I support anonymity, as I said I'm in favour of less government interference
in markets, but in this case, we need a bigger stick because Amazon and other
marketplace platforms don't quite have the technical tools to fight fraudulent
reviews.

Also I don't think there's a mention of using real ids?

------
jawns
> Finally, the order imposes a judgment of $12.8 million, which will be
> suspended upon payment of $50,000 to the Commission and the payment of
> certain unpaid income tax obligations. If the defendants are later found to
> have misrepresented their financial condition to the FTC, the full amount of
> the judgment will immediately become due.

That's an interesting way of structuring the penalty.

I wonder how enforceable it would be.

~~~
ceejayoz
Why wouldn't it be enforceable? It's a court order.

It's also quite standard: [https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-
blog/2016/03/...](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-
blog/2016/03/suspension-prevention-story-behind-suspended-judgments)

~~~
jawns
My apologies. I should have said "recoverable" rather than "enforceable."

I would assume that if a company is in trouble with the FTC, it's probably not
in the best financial shape after paying even the costs associated with the
suspended judgment. So if the FTC finds that the company made an omission and
the full judgment comes due, will it actually recover that money? Or is the
point to just fine them out of existence, without concern for actually
recovering the money?

~~~
ceejayoz
If the FTC discovers they've hidden assets, they can go back to court,
reinstate the full penalty, and go after those assets. I suspect there'd be
additional criminal charges like perjury available to them, as well.

------
gav
I still don't understand why Amazon has done so little to combat the plague of
fake reviews. It seems like it's something that's going to blow up eventually
and bite them.

Along those lines: why do they still value reviews that aren't associated with
a purchase? This is the logical first step.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
I think you can assume that Amazon operates in its own best interest. If fake
reviews were hurting sales, it'd stop them within weeks. I'm guessing, for the
time being, they're helping sales. Although, I haven't bought anything on
Amazon in 3 years now, and I never will again. I think this problem is
creating HUGE long-term downsides. Those are a lot tougher to
calculate/quantify than the short-term benefits, though.

~~~
fossuser
I wonder what the actual outcome is for sales - fake reviews and counterfeit
products have driven me to purchase a certain class of items directly from the
manufacturer and not on Amazon.

Maybe most people don't bother with this though?

~~~
appsonify
I no longer have amazon prime-had an awful experience with getting shit
shipped, and come to think of it most were cheap alibaba electronics with
markup.

but when I need some cables or other mundane things, it's convenient, although
I don't really need it ASAP TMR like with Prime. I found that it puts a lot of
pressure on the couriers and it just ruins the experience for everybody
involved.

The end of this quarter for Amazon will disappoint.

~~~
trumped
monoprice.com used to be better for cables and stuff like that... haven't use
them in a while though..

------
femto113
Title would be more descriptive if "Indie Retail Website" was replaced with
"Amazon.com".

What I find most notable here is that the FTC's settlement is with the
manufacturer/seller, and doesn't seem to affect the company that wrote the
reviews (amazonverifiedreviews.com).

------
dylan604
I think they should be forced to list the number of items returned right next
to the number of reviews.

------
Gpetrium
This is an interesting case since it has the potential to impact other larger
entities such as Amazon (Goods), Google (Apps), Apple (Apps).

The issue with fake paid reviews is extremely difficult to gauge and act upon.
On one end, the owner of the marketplace doesn't want their place to be seeing
as 'full of fakes' on the other end, they don't want to be seeing as censoring
legit feedback. How do you know who is who? The second you figure that out,
the 'bad actors' will find different, innovative ways to break your system.

On another side, because review has become a huge part of the decision people
take, new entrants are finding it harder to get a piece of the market (even if
they are legit) without paying someone to provide reviews.

Finding the right balance in this area will be a continuous effort on all
sides, we will likely need better independent customer review sites, the
marketplaces will need to find better ways to gauge what is real and what is
not, the customers will need to be proactive and check information from
different angles, businesses will need to find new ways to prove their
legitimacy to get the trust of clients.

------
thatoneuser
Worst part is this creates a rift in the market where vendors are not
incentivized to produce quality products, but rather to manipulate and game.
Who could have possibly thought that A single entity handling so much of the
nation's purchasing would end up with terrible oversight in quality?

~~~
president
That's what "business" is now. People already have everything they could
possibly need - food, shelter, and basic necessities. "Business" is now a game
of tricking people into wanting things they don't need and trampling over each
other for profits.

------
yazr
Not clear if this is mostly a "wonder food false advertisement" enforcement,
or a "false review" enforcement.

Maybe this was an easy "starter case" to advertise (ha ha) the new FTC
position.

~~~
advisedwang
The FDA usually peruses issues of false health claims, so I'm guessing the
latter.

------
manav
I was worried for a moment since the company, "Cure Encapsulations" sounds
familiar to the product line I frequently buy "Pure Encapsulations", luckily
they are not the same.

What's interesting is that they only seem to have one product on Amazon:
[https://amzn.to/2Ef2XH9](https://amzn.to/2Ef2XH9), for which they are
Amazon's top choice for the category. I wouldn't be surprised if one of their
competitors made the complaint to the FCC.

------
nimish
The wrong actor is being targeted here: Amazon is just as culpable for
encouraging bad behavior.

~~~
gscott
Amazon has their own "Vine" program to do the same thing.

------
Razengan
Can such problems ever really be solved without associating every online
account with a person's identity (at least internally) and enforcing one
account per person per social platform?

------
i_am_nomad
Seems like there’s a huge business opportunity for trusted, independent review
websites. Or for a company that certifies such websites as trusted.

~~~
Gpetrium
Until the trusted, independent review websites are paid to let some things
slide. It is a very difficult environment to maintain.

------
appsonify
There's an obvious problem with the way we are trying to gauge with a 5 star
rating system from the Middle Ages.

But what would you use instead?

------
mc32
Crowdsourced reviews are problematic (often but not always lacking context).
Paid reviews make them worthless.

Perhaps this is one use of a blockchain which could add credibility to
reviews.

Still by and large I prefer independent professional reviews (combined with
authentic crowdsourced reviews), the problem with these, like CR, is that
they’re not scalable to thousands of new products periodically, so we have to
rely on crowdsourced reviews that don’t include a “trustworthiness” quotient.

~~~
samat
How on earth would blockchain help?

~~~
mc32
Tying buyer to review, although not perfect, in that you could still have a
confederate problem, it would help.

~~~
nomel
This is defeated by simply giving people amazon gift cards to purchase the
product to submit the review. I've seen many reviews state that this is
already happening: a review in exchange for the product.

