
Sun, surf and low rents: why Lisbon could be the next tech capital - smcl
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/29/lisbon-web-summit-sun-surf-cheap-rents-tech-capital
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ThePawnBreak
There's an article like this written about 90% of Europe's capitals. There are
no tech hubs in cheap places, because smart people move away from low wage,
low cost of life places. Libon stands no chance, I would say the only
contenders are London, Stockholm, Berlin and maybe 2-3 others. The only low-
ish cost country I could see becoming a serious contester for a tech hub would
be Poland.

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mxuribe
But you have to admit, there's an obvious need/desire for there to be
other/more tech hubs. As cool as it might be for some to have a single tech
hub, that kills affordability, hence distributing the hubs to numerous spots
around the world. Let's face it: if you happen to be a tech employable person,
wouldn't it be cool if you _COULD_ spend a few years in tech hub A, then be
able to move to tech hub B, etc.? Instead of really only having one (or too
few) options? I think so anyway.

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ThePawnBreak
I think tech hubs are intrinsically centralized, because you need to get the
best people in the sample place. If you have N tech hubs, then you have no
tech hubs. If Europe is to have a real tech hub, it needs to have the best
minds in Europe (at the very least) be there. And for now, there is not really
any such place. Language is also a big issue.

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user5994461
There is such a place. That's called London and the language is English.

Source: Me and the dozens of tech people I meet every days who have left their
countries to come here.

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xadoc
Lisbon is definitely a nice place to live, but not so much to work. Otherwise
why the significant emigration rate of tech workers/skilled workers? Pay is
low and the hours are long. VC money in Portugal is very limited and
bureaucracy is still more than what you would expect comparing to the UK.

Most entrepreneurship programs are state sponsored and usually there is some
big international company involved, from incubation these companies become
state dependent.

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mping
The pay is low if you compare to London, even so I had colleagues in Lisbon
earning more (before taxes) than devs in London. If you don't earn enough here
to live comfortably, either you dont have the skills (yet?) or have no idea of
the market you're in.

Of course, if your plan is to earn money, in Europe London is the place to be.

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kybernetyk
And a lot of bureaucracy and a complex tax system.

If I wanted to start a business in Europe I'd chose the UK. They are light
(for Europe) on regulation and have very simple rules when it comes to running
a business according to law. Hell, you can set up your Ltd. in 10 minutes and
pay the fees via PayPal.

Try that anywhere in Continental Europe.

(That's also why I don't get all the hype about Berlin. I'm from Germany and
Germany is one of the last places where I would start up).

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lifty
Estonia, while a little obscure, has great facilities for interacting with the
government, and a very straightforward tax code. They have one of the most
modern governments in Europe, with which you can interact fully digitally by
using a digital id (smartcard). Also, check out their latest campaign for
attracting business and talent, called e-Estonia. While they have plenty to
learn, they are on the right track.

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plinkplonk
I suspect what makes a 'tech capital' is the presence of VC money. For better
or worse, SF absolutely dominates here, and till we have comparable amounts of
money in another location, there won't be comparable 'tech capitals'. I doubt
low rent is a marker of a tech capital anywhere. (I could be wrong).

It might make sense to register a company in the USA, raise money from US VC
then work from wherever you have access to your customers and you like living.
India has a few companies that do exactly this. US registered companies, a
global clientele, tech work happens in India, mostly in Bangalore.

E.g: Helpshift.

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k__
Sure thing. But I think SF is more of a US thing.

I have the feeling that Europe is searching for its own tech captial right
now. London was the best candidate, but (probably) got nuked by the Brexit.

I'd think it could be Berlin, it is rather cheap and still got much creative
people. Don't know if they will gentrify it away the next years.

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user5994461
Brexit doesn't matter.

The brains are already here. The companies are already here. The language is
English.

There is no other place in Europe who can compete with that.

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piva00
London is far from being THE tech capital of Europe. Nowhere here has
consolidated itself as a huge tech hub yet, London is good, just as Berlin is
pretty good for tech jobs right now.

I'm currently living and working in Stockholm and I can say that the culture
around tech here is pretty damn good, although smaller than Berlin or London
we get some very good people around here, paired with Swedish efficiency.
Hell, even Amsterdam has a good tech scene.

I hope that London doesn't suffer a huge backlash from Brexit but... It's not
a consolidated tech hub and I really don't know about startup culture around
there.

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drcross
I've heard Portugal could be favourable for personal income tax if you are a
remote worker, can anyone comment on that? If i'm thinking about "semi"
retiring I'd like somewhere with cheap tax, sun and good hospitals.

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ldarcyftw
Apparently there is a 10-year 0-tax on non-Portugal income. Road to residency
is quite straightforward (for non-EU citizens) (not sure about citizenship
though). On the other hand, bureaucracy is quite bad I've heard.

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me_bx
Information related the taxation regime for "non-habitual residents":
[http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-
re...](http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-regime-for-
non-habitual-residents/)

Apparently, the 0% tax only applies in case the income is already taxed in the
state of origin...

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ethbro
For Americans, isn't all our income always still taxed in the US?

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mark212
Always _subject to_ taxation by the US. There's a fairly high initial
exemption for money earned abroad while living abroad.

The only exception is Puerto Rico

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virmundi
Yea, and Palatka Florida is in the running. It's close to the ocean, 45 mins
from St Augustine. It's dead center between Jacksonville, Gainesville and St
Augustine. It's dirt cheap with my 130 year old house at 2000 sqft only being
145k. And I'm here.

You need more than low cost housing, friendly government and eco-amenities to
make a new tech hub.

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jostmey
In my opinion, tech hubs need:

* Open minded culture

* Top research facilities (i.e. Multiple top universities)

* Low cost of living, high quality of life

* Large customer markets

Just because Libson has a low cost of living doesn't mean it will take off.
The cost of living is low in lots of South American Cities. Does that mean
they will all be the next San Fran?

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ThePawnBreak
Care to name a few tech hubs that have a low cost of living?

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jdavis703
Austin, Texas in the U.S.? While the cost in dollars may be cheap, I would
definitely consider there to be steep non-monetary costs to living there.

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ryuker16
I don't think Austin is considered cheap except compared to new York and SF

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pmcpinto
Lisbon is an awesome place to live, the weather is awesome (today we have 27C
and it's almost November), the food and nightlife is great and somewhat cheap
compared with other european cities, but it's far away from becoming a tech
capital.

It's really a nice place, especially for people who are working remotely and
receiving a kind of salary that are paid in UK, US, Australia, etc

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mping
Actually I would very much prefer that Lisbon would become the next tech
creative scene than the next Sillicon Valley. Besides lots of money for some
people, I don't see any particular advantages of being loaded with VC money. I
don't buy into the trickle down argument, from what I read over this side of
the pond only the IT people are happy in SF.

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krona
For anyone employing/being employed in Portugal: I've read that that the
statutory maximum working day is 8 hours. What does that actually mean in
practice?

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k__
I don't know Portugal, but in Germany it's 8h too. (40h a week)

(8h work) + (0.5h to 1h lunch break) ~= 9h at the office.

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Inufu
In my experience (Austria and UK), lunch break is part of the 8h, i.e. I get
to work at 10:00 and leave at 18:00.

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k__
[http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2...](http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2680.jpg)

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wfeui3
It is all sunny, until you try to register a company.

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k__
How come?

It's in the EU, so you can register your company where you prefer. Ireland for
example.

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cagataygurturk
Burocracy in south Europe is not similar to anywhere in the developed world.

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rubenfonseca
Nope

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AncoraImparo
Not going to happen.

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adamors
Why?

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paol
Not the OP, but I do live here: because you can't have a concentration of
startups without a concentration of venture capital, and that has yet to
materialize. Nor do I see a particular reason why it should materialize.

