
People are planting more vegetable gardens - jelliclesfarm
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/27/822514756/fearing-shortages-people-are-planting-more-vegetable-gardens
======
taylodl
I'm planting a garden because I plant a garden every year. Well, I've been
doing it for the past 25 years or so anyway. I've gotten quite good with
production. I shudder at the thought of a bunch of noobs going out and
starting a garden, but hey, I was a noob once too and I learned. My biggest
advice for a beginner is to consider your approach to pest control. That means
identifying the pests in your area, both bugs and animals, and whether you
want to use chemicals or natural methods. Seeing as how I eat produce I prefer
using natural methods but you have to realize they're not as effective and you
will suffer losses. Sometimes those losses can be severe - you'd be amazed at
the amount of damage squirrels, rabbits, crows, and various beetles can do to
a garden in short order! The cool thing is you're going to learn about all
kinds of new insects you never even knew existed happily munching away on all
your produce! Enjoy!

~~~
aszantu
I'd never skip on the opportunity for fresh organic meat and would totally
welcome rabbits and squirrels to my garden if I had one xD

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I'm not sure where you live but I'd think twice (and probably still do it)
about eating rabbit from anywhere where people routinely put pesticides on
their lawns.

~~~
cloverich
I've always been a bit curious -- you cook the rabbit. Which pesticides (etc)
survive the cooking process to the point where you'd need to worry about them?

~~~
hansvm
Most pesticides survive the cooking process. As a rule of thumb, cooking kills
most biological baddies (bacteria, worms, etc) and doesn't do much for
anything else. If your threat model includes pesticides, botulinum toxin, or a
number of other contaminations then you probably need to just avoid that food
source, or at least limit exposure.

------
UncleOxidant
I'm not planting a garden because I fear shortages, I'm planting it so I don't
have to make as many trips to the store.

~~~
mywittyname
I do it because some things are wildly overpriced at the grocery. Like,
there's no use in planting cucumbers when they are $0.50 at the grocery. But
fresh herbs are like $3 a bunch and berries can be $3-5 a lb, so it can make
good financial sense to plant some of these.

An herb garden and planter will produce easily $100 worth of herbs over a
season for nothing more than 20 minutes of planting, then regular watering and
tending. I had so much basil last year that I literally ate it in salad.

Berry bushes can be a little more expensive, like $20-50. But they also yield
crazy amounts of fruit over the season and grow in like 95% of the USA.

It's a good investment, and it's a nice way to get some out doors time
everyday.

~~~
Cerium
I focus on foods that are expensive or you simply cannot buy. For example,
carrots straight out of the ground taste significantly different than store
bought. Despite carrots being one of the cheapest foods I still grow some.
Otherwise you nail it with herbs and berries. I estimate a couple basil plants
save me at least $50 a year.

Another good item I always recommend is to plant the green onion stubs. About
3 square feet of green onions is enough for my family all year.

~~~
downerending
Indeed, good tomatoes seem to be unavailable in stores at any price (even
before all of this).

~~~
maxerickson
Of course they don't substitute for fresh, but canned tomatoes are pretty good
for a lot of cooking. They are harvested relatively ripe compared to store
fresh.

~~~
gen220
They are also tomatoes bred for taste rather than shelf life, which makes a
significant difference. Unless they’re in season, I’d personally never use
“fresh” tomatoes from the produce section. Canned tomatoes from a good
vineyard will taste better and even be cheaper sometimes.

For whatever reason, my generation (20s) tends to have a some repulsive
initial reaction to canned goods. But as long as they’re packed sans
preservatives, many fruits and vegetables are probably better for you than the
“fresh” ones at the grocery store.

~~~
downerending
And don't overlook frozen. Not sure about tomatoes, but many vegetables are
excellent in this format.

------
telesilla
We've started making bread every night for the next day, and I've heard many
of my friends are doing this. It's better than what we get in the local
bakeries (we don't live in France) and have already discussed continuing to
bake now that we figured out some easy tricks. We started here :
[https://andyljones.com/posts/bread.html](https://andyljones.com/posts/bread.html)

~~~
IvyMike
Conversely, just saw this twitter post by @gloomfather: "Oh dude yeah you
gotta try baking your own bread in quarantine. It takes 14 hours to do right
and it’s boring as shit, but the results are often quite disappointing." :)

~~~
jdc
A very on-brand comment from that fellow. But if you not doing it to pass the
time, I'd suggest using a bread machine!

~~~
soperj
If you do it the no-knead way, making bread in the oven is less work than a
bread machine and less noisy. Less clean up, and better bread.

~~~
mrob
No-knead bread needs high-hydration dough, which is fashionable nowadays but
not to everybody's preference. If you prefer something like normal sandwich
bread then a bread machine will make it for you.

------
blisterpeanuts
We had 10 pots on the patio last summer, growing cilantro, parsley, green
beans, stevia, potatoes, basil, swiss chard, etc.

Drip irrigation tubes attached to a timer faucet watered it every morning
automatically. At some point I'm going to try to hook in a Pi or Arduino so I
can remotely control the irrigation, e.g. if it's raining I won't have to go
outside & manually shut it off.

We'll be doing that again, and this spring we're also planning to plant a
couple of rows of potatoes, carrots, and lettuce. Growing food is not
difficult, but it does require some knowledge and understanding of soil pH,
pest control, etc. Fortunately there are plenty of how-to videos these days.

The food you grow in an organic, chemical free environment tastes fresh and
pure, is good for you, educational for the children, and very satisfying. It
may not pay for itself in the first couple of years, but over time you'll find
that it's well worth it. Freshly grown potatoes taste incredible.

We are thinking of getting chickens, but it may or may not happen this spring.
Self-sufficiency takes a lot of work, but partial sufficiency is quite
attainable for many people. Even if you're in an urban apartment, there are
hydroponic devices and grow lamps to help you grow considerable veggies. I
suppose we can thank the pot industry for that.

~~~
RosanaAnaDana
>Growing food is not difficult, but it does require some knowledge

I'd push back on the first part of this lightly. Growing _some_ food is not
difficult. Growing food effectively however, in quantity and for a long period
of time, does require a fair bit of experience and local knowledge that you
just can't get in one season. My family gardened heavily growing up, and I've
been gardening extensively since my mid 20's (late 30's now), and I would say
I only now truly feel like I 'get it' with regards to many aspects of
planting, harvesting, timing, and preservation.

Prior to the pandemic, my goal this summer was to have my house be 'food-
independent' for 3 months of this year. I've revised that goal to try and get
to food independence by end of spring and maintain that through the end of
fall and into winter.

My argument would be that gardening has a very low barrier to entry: literally
any one can (and should) have a garden. However, the top skill cap on
gardening is very high and does take time to achieve. Its also not something
that can be entirely short-cutted through self learning/ study. _How_ you grow
depends on where you are and the details of your particular garden. Nothing
else but experience will get you there.

~~~
asdkjh345fd
>My argument would be that gardening has a very low barrier to entry:
literally any one can (and should) have a garden. However, the top skill cap
on gardening is very high and does take time to achieve

It really isn't. Gardening is very easy, and the skill cap is very low. The
problem is that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of misinformation being promoted
as knowledge, and beginners have no way to tell fact from fiction. Almost all
of my learning curve was spent trying things that are based on incorrect
assumptions or just plain memes. As soon as I learned "build soil instead of
killing soil" everything became trivial.

------
Bukhmanizer
Don’t think it has as much to do with fearing food shortages as it does with
being bored at home. At least that’s how it was for me.

~~~
myself248
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden)

------
Traster
I wonder if the people planting vegetables are aware of just how much they
would need to plant in order to supply even a small fraction of someone's
required calories. I mean, there's a good reason we've centralized food
production into massively efficient enormous farms with heavily mechanised
harvesting.

~~~
nathanaldensr
For my family and me it's not about calories, it's about nutrition. Vegetables
are an excellent source of all kinds of vitamins and minerals, especially ones
grown in quality soil with quality seeds. It's also about fiber. We get our
calories from fats and protein.

~~~
close04
In general most people planting these gardens "ad-hoc" and not doing it more
or less "as a job" probably don't have that much dedicated surface for this,
nor can put in that much effort/time into it in order to obtain more than a
nice and tasty complement for their meals. If you can consistently offset a
shortage for your family then you're pretty much a farmer.

And I say this as someone who actually cultivated such a garden for years,
with help from the family. I allocated a lot of time each day to tending that
garden, more than most people would be able to do these days and have a stable
job, even with WFH.

It was just a pretty hard but pleasant activity, relaxing, I got fresh air and
exercise, and I could get some really tasty vegetables but nothing that could
"feed the family". And my livelihood didn't depend on the success. Like a
dessert at the end of the meal: great but not quite main course.

------
seanwilson
Tangential topic, but does anyone have a good no-nonsense evidence based
source for how to make bread and/or sourdough?

I've been trying sourdough and it's crazy how many contradictory pieces of
advice and explanations you read e.g. if the yeast comes from the initial
flour or air, what ratio of flour + water to feed it with, how many times a
day you feed the starter, how many times you let the dough prove. It generally
indicates to me that the process is very forgiving though (as so many
variations work).

I would have thought most myths would have been put to bed by now as it should
be relatively easy to run cooking experiments if you want to debunk something.

~~~
cardamomo
I highly recommend books by Peter Reinhart. I prefer to bake with whole
grains, so I have his "While Grain Breads: New Techniques, Extraordinary
Flavor," but anything by him should be great. His work is definitely based in
experience and the science of yeast and flour.

~~~
pmoriarty
The bread I make most often, the simplest and most delicious one I've had in
my life, comes from Reinhart's _Artisan Breads Every Day_. So I can definitely
second the recommendation of his books.

------
ctack
Being in lockdown has enabled me to really focus on our vegetable garden this
year. Am even getting into weeding which is not normally something I enjoy.

~~~
frobozz
This. I used to grow veg before commuting and children got in the way. Last
time I tried I didn't have the time to keep on top of the weeds. I hope that
now we are all at home all the time, I'll be able to do a bit of hoeing any
day I like.

------
Crcarter
I run tech at a small farming and gardening supply company in Maine. We’ve
seen order volume jump 2-300% in the past few weeks. We’ve done several VPS
upgrades to handle the increased traffic, and our order number allocation
system has broken down several times recently. Our digital infrastructure is
keeping up now, but we’re all still scrambling to keep the staff healthy and
safe as we all work to get the orders out the door safely and responsibly.

~~~
kyuudou
Puts a new twist on "Elastic Beanstalk"

------
big_chungus
I hope this convinces people to become more self-sufficient overall and grow a
little of their own food. Living farther out from dense urban cores on more
land will help, and conveniently, it will also make one less likely to fall
ill. Telecommuting will hopefully enable people to live much less densely and
avoid something like this recurring at its present scale.

~~~
yardie
The climate impact of individuals living in the city vs those living in the
suburbs is considerable. More people living away from the city increases
deforestation and is a net negative as far as lifestyle is concerned.
Telecommuting is a nice option but most businesses don't work that way. I work
in the commercial arts world. A lot of it is sensory stimuli and requires
paying butts in seats. I can't dropship an experience through Amazon working
from bungalow in Chiang Mai.

~~~
asdkjh345fd
>The climate impact of individuals living in the city vs those living in the
suburbs is considerable.

Yes, but in the opposite direction of what you imply.

>More people living away from the city increases deforestation

Why would that be the case? Almost all deforestation is for land for farming,
not for houses. How much oil is burned growing food and shipping it and
storing it and lighting and cooling stores to sell it?

>is a net negative as far as lifestyle is concerned.

Not everyone values the same materialistic things you do.

>I work in the commercial arts world

That's a make-work industry that doesn't need to exist. Consider the massive
environmental impact of your industry, and how it adds absolutely no value to
society at all. Yet you want to stop people from living further away from
massive disease spreading urban centers and growing their own food at a cost
of zero burned oil?

~~~
imtringued
> Consider the massive environmental impact of your industry, and how it adds
> absolutely no value to society at all.

What massive environmental impact? Commercial art sounds like one of the least
energy intensive occupations. You just sit in front of a laptop with low
energy consumption. You are sharing a building with hundreds of other people.
You probably take public transport instead of commuting by car, live in a
small apartment and share heating with other people. Really the biggest
pollution source is the food that you are eating as an artist and that's not
your fault. It's the fault of the farmer that is using diesel tractors,
fertilizing his plants with artificial fertilizer, shipping his food with
diesel trucks. All of these pollution sources will have to switch to renewable
energy one day. What about that laptop? It's probably running on Renewables
today!

~~~
asdkjh345fd
>What massive environmental impact?

The one you describe in the rest of your post. Billions of tons of CO2
emissions and the outcome is a negative burden on society rather than a
benefit.

>It's the fault of the farmer that is using diesel tractors, fertilizing his
plants with artificial fertilizer, shipping his food with diesel trucks.

None of those things are the farmer's fault. They are the inevitable and
mandatory cost of urbanization. Were you planning to just starve while making
ads?

>All of these pollution sources will have to switch to renewable energy one
day

That is physically impossible. What will have to happen is techno-industrial
society will collapse as we exit the tiny blip in history of abundant energy.

------
mikedilger
I'm glad people are doing this. Us long-term gardeners, farmers, farm
lifestylers and preppers are happy to answer any questions.

~~~
commandlinefan
> answer any questions

well, since you offered... ;) I've heard differing advice on using coffee
grounds in gardens: some say you should and some say you shouldn't. Am I doing
my garden a disservice dumping each day's pot of coffee grounds into the dirt?
I'm trying to grow tomatos, peppers (jalapeno, bell and poblano), cilantro,
beans, squash and zucchini.

~~~
mikedilger
Coffee grounds are good. Either compost or dig in directly.

Many people get confused about pH. Coffee grounds are acidic. But it will have
negligable effect on soil pH. Something about buffering capacity (I'm sure
I'll be corrected by someone). Same thing with pine needles. They are acidic
but will not change soil pH.

They won't make much difference right away, but adding organic matter improves
the soil over time.

~~~
mikedilger
Let me explain the pH thing better, now that I've had a think. Soil has a
cation exchange capacity (CEC). Some soils have higher capacity then others.
Think if it like a numeric count of all the molecular points where a cation
could ionically bond. On each of those points, either you have a hydrogen
(which makes it acidic) or another cation (which generally makes it alkaline).
Those are calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, but also a few others in
minute quantities even lead (Pb+2). Ammonium is a cation too.

When adding something, it adds more CEC attachment points, but also more
cations and more hydrogen.

Within just the coffee grounds, many of the CEC points are occupied by
hydrogen, so it is acidic. But when you compare the number of CEC points to
that in the soil, the amount in your soil overwhelms. The good cations in your
soil wont be affected much until you have enormous levels of coffee grounds
(like >10% or something, I'd have to calculate it and I haven't).

And of course you can always just measure the pH and add cations which will
displace the hydrogen (it will bond with the anion). Calcium is cheapest which
is why people use agricultural lime. Dolomite will give you some magnesium
which will probably produce healthier veggies. Potassium is important but too
much will just bulk up the veggies rather than letting them develop more
healthfully. Sodium is almost never useful.

------
01100011
It's great if you can efficiently do it and actually use the results. If you
have free time, or kids to help out, I think gardening can be a great hobby
and help supplement your nutrition. I think it takes some practice to get
right. Fertilization, bug control, selecting varieties, site selection and
preparation... My past attempts at gardening have reminded me of the
comparative advantage of outsourcing my food supply. Even when my garden has
done well, I struggled to eat the results(weeks of non-stop zucchini gets
old), and didn't have the time for preservation.

------
remarkEon
I love gardening. Have a lot of really fond memories of playing in my mom's
garden (despite terrible allergies) while she was working on it. Tomatoes,
rhubarb, raspberries, all sorts of other spices and nectar plants for things
like bees and hummingbirds. One summer memory in particular sticks with me,
because it was probably my first lesson in the scientific method. Mom's
hollyhock plants came down with what ended up being a bad case of rust[1]. We
changed the watering routine, fertilizer...nothing worked. This was before
google and all that, so we first went to the library and got some gardening
books. Went out and compared pictures, but none were exactly the same. Next I
clipped some leaves from the plants and we went down to the garden shop a few
blocks away and, sure enough, the guy behind the counter (kicking myself I
can't remember his name, probably 85 or so with crystal white hair) gave the
diagnosis and recommended cutting off all the affected leaves and burning
them. Saved the whole lot!

Unfortunately, because of work, I live in a city now and that means ... no
yard with a garden. The wife also loves gardening. Anyone have any tips for
setting something up in an apartment with a balcony? Irrigation is my primary
concern.

[1]
[https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/flowers/hollyhoc...](https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/flowers/hollyhock/hollyhock-
rust-in-gardens.htm)

~~~
ornornor
You can make self watering pots with 5 gallons buckets, their lid, a pipe, and
an old T-shirt. But if you’re not going away, you can simply water every day.

------
Madmallard
Planting your own garden ensures you know what crap is sprayed onto the
plants.

------
aresant
There is not a shortage issue, there is a logistics issue.

The logistics issue is that we have commercial and retail supply chains that
are Apples & Oranges level different in terms of getting end consumers what
they need.

For instance:

1) Commercial Offices - why is toilet paper disappearing especially in big
cities? It's not the production side that's failing. It's that a huge amount
of toilet paper is bought and distributed by commercial contract stockers. The
supply chain has NOT adjusted to get commercially stocked toilet paper to
retail centers. And making it worse commercial distributors are FORBIDDEN to
sell to retail in many cases! So now you're dealing with a supply chain +
beurocratic issue. There are Mt. Everest sized stocks of commercial TP sitting
in warehouses all over America.

2) Commercial Restaurants - These establishments fed the MAJORITY of office
workers in major cities up until 3 weeks ago. Commercial restaurant supply
chains are reeling - they have stock sitting on shelves and are trying to
figure out how to get it into the retail supply chain with similar beurocratic
and logistics issues.

There is not a food / grocery shortage and there is unlikely to be a food /
grocery shortage in the USA.

But it is going to take some time to sort out how to adjust to this new
normal.

And inevitably as soon as we figure it out the pendulum will swing the other
way :)

~~~
01100011
You make a good point about the supply chains.

There is not a food shortage yet. However, I would not be surprised if there
is a shortage of labor intensive food products in a month or so, depending on
storage limits. I would not expect shortages of less labor intensive staples
like cereal crops and maybe milk. It seems to me that meat packing is fairly
labor intensive, so I would not be surprised if meat becomes more scarce at
some point.

Fresh vegetables seem fairly labor intensive. Fruits can be warehoused for a
year or so(AFAIK, at least in the case of apples). Some vegetables are
probably more automated(potatoes, corn). I wonder about salad greens though.

FWIW, if you're just now considering getting a chest freezer to stockpile
frozen goods, good luck. _Everyone_ is sold out.

~~~
aresant
With 30% of the US economy out of work and the gov't prioritizing business vs.
consumer handouts I would argue the inverse.

80% of people that get COVID have a mild case.(1)

Mild / average cases of COVID run ~2 weeks beginning to end.

Farming, food production, and grocery is NOT going to close down.

The available labor pool has massively expanded and without paycheck or
stimulus coming lots of Americans playing 1-rung above farm labor are going to
fill any void in the migrant labor pool.

(1) [https://www.webmd.com/lung/covid-recovery-
overview#1](https://www.webmd.com/lung/covid-recovery-overview#1)

~~~
01100011
That doesn't take into account fear and the need to care for family. If, for
instance, Mexico gets hit hard by COVID, you might see an effect on US
agricultural labor supply as people return home to care for family or attend
funerals. There is a fear factor as well. In China, I remember reading people
were simply refusing to show up for work.

> Americans playing 1-rung above farm labor are going to fill any void in the
> migrant labor pool.

Has this ever happened in modern times? I can see Americans filling voids in
the construction and service industries, but farm labor is pretty hard work
and doesn't pay well. Will Americans take a farm job when they can sit idle
and collect enhanced unemployment benefits?

Keep in mind that farm workers generally don't have quality health care, and
will likely fare worse as a population than an averaged sample of cases.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" In China, I remember reading people were simply refusing to show up for
work."_

This might be what happens with people who can afford to live off their
savings or state support while out of work, but many won't be so fortunate.

Here's a more likely scenario for many of the seasonal workers who supply our
food:

 _I soon spotted a group of men huddled in a corner..._

 _I stopped and asked them, from a safe distance, if they were following the
lockdown._

 _Ramesh Kumar, who comes from Banda district in Uttar Pradesh state, said
that he knew "there won't be anybody to hire us, but we still took our
chances"._

 _" I earn 600 rupees ($8; £6.50) every day and I have five people to feed. We
will run out of food in a few days. I know the risk of coronavirus, but I
can't see my children hungry," he said._

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
india-52002734](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-52002734)

------
dylanz
I received my Permaculture Design Certificate from Bill Mollison, my
Permaculture for Aid Workers from Geoff Lawton, designed two properties, both
included food forests, and I also like long walks on the beach and sushi.
WHO’S HIRING APRIL 2020. Joke aside, gardens not only provide food, I’ve found
they act as an anti-depressant and are quite fun to build.

One principle of Permaculture is to optimize space to provide for human needs.
I feel like the HN community could come up with some cool shit in this space.

------
tathougies
Made a good penny selling my tomato starts this year. More than covered my
seed purchases for our garden (not due to coronavirus, I just like gardening
and splurged on them this year).

------
virmundi
I’m curious if the Feds will start to crack down on this kind of behavior.
Think of the impact on veggie prices once a good portion of Americans are
growing their own food. The New Deal already showed the US could come in a
demand you pay fines for not buying crops you don’t need.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn)

------
DoreenMichele
I'm encouraged to see this. I don't really have anything profound or witty to
say, but this makes me feel like we're probably going to be okay.

------
chris1993
Related to this the sales of my gardening app in March were about 100% higher
than usual. That's coming off a low base (people don't like paying for apps)
but it's a big change. Most of that was in Australia where it's coming into
winter so it's not the usual vegetable gardening time. You can't buy vegetable
seedlings anywhere at present as they're sold out immediately.

------
blendo
Aspirationally, I’d like to put in the “Three Sisters” (corn, beans, and
squash) [https://redandhoney.com/milpa-plant-
one/](https://redandhoney.com/milpa-plant-one/).

What pests should I worry about in Northern California?

~~~
mikedilger
Some garden plants are sure to attract lots of pests. But corn, beans, and
squash are not among the most heavily attacked in my experience. You probably
won't have too much of a pest problem.

The crops with the most pests (in my experience) are brassicas (white
butterfly), tomatoes (everything seems to attack tomatoes!), and beets
(slugs).

Nasturtiums as a trap crop supposedly can draw away aphids. But remember that
nasturtiums attract aphids. So it's a gamble. I guess just don't plant them
too close. I've never tried.

------
vinni2
I live in a place where it’s not good weather most of the year. So I tried
some indoor garden with grow light somehow it didn’t work the plants seemed to
be sick just gave up. Instead I am stocking up some frozen veggies if they
really goes short.

~~~
koheripbal
It takes minimum 1 acre of land to feed an adult. Small gardens make sense for
things that are needlessly expensive, like mint, basil, etc...

If you have a backyard, the least effort - highest output thing you can plant
is a fruit tree.

~~~
PeterisP
If you're hungry, you plant dense staple crops - an acre can yield something
like 10 tons of potatoes (or carrots or pumpkins) - if you're not selling
produce, then even planting 0.1-0.2 acres of potatoes means you'd have more
potatoes than your family needs (because you eat lots of other things). It
also takes a lot of labor if you don't have specialized machinery and will
take a lot of space in the basement, but it will keep you from starving even
from quite small plots of land.

A fruit tree is great, but the proper time to plant one is ten years ago.

------
doggodad
Here's the list for this year, first growing season after recovering from the
Nov 2018 fire:

\- Red, green & yellow bell peppers

\- Jalapeños

\- Okra

\- Heirloom tomatos

\- Cherry tomatos

\- Yellow squash

\- Zucchini

\- Watermelon

\- Sweet corn

\- Sunflowers

Critters we have to deal with:

\- Black bears

\- Deer

\- Crows

\- Blue jays

\- Turkeys

\- Squirrels

\- Snails

\- Drug addicts who can't see me or the Glock I'm racking

------
rootsudo
Hydroponics are really easy to produce :)

