

Diaspora: One Month In - iwani
http://www.joindiaspora.com/2010/07/01/one-month-in.html

======
ihodes
Glad to see an update from them—sounds like they're doing work. They've got a
lot more to do in the months ahead, and I'm looking forward to following
along.

As an aside, it's interesting to see how similar their message passing
protocol is to one I'm beginning to plan out, though for a completely
different application. Kinda like a "push to origin; fetch from origin" (from
git).

EDIT: And hmm, every time Diaspora comes up, people start to say something
about a "hype cycle" or something. I don't really know what that is, but it's
rather obnoxious.

How about we don't take every mention of Diaspora as an invitation to count
the ways they're sure to fail; because of the hypecycle or motorhyper or the
gnarly-toothed funderrazer…etc.

To me, this is an interesting update about a curious project. Keep it going!

~~~
pvg
How can you tell it's obnoxious if you don't know what it means? Easy to find
out, though - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle> You might find it
inaccurate or otherwise useless but it hardly seems obnoxious.

As to assessing Diaspora's chances of success - it's a perfectly reasonable
thing to do, especially in a forum of technology-, product- and business-
focused people. It's Hacker News, not Cheerleader News, after all. Just
because a reasoned analysis might be negative doesn't mean it's cynical.

------
garply
So, if I'm reading this right, the servers will be totally distributed?

I don't care about a Facebook replacement so much as a totally distributed
file-sharing system where trust and recommendations are based on my real-life
friends. It seems like that could happen with this. Also, I think file-sharing
is a great hook for the everyday Joe. And it's somewhere Facebook can't easily
go.

~~~
messel
Couldn't agree more. The system they cook up will be one of many websocket
wielding filesharing services. What will they do for browsers without
websockets, flash supports sockets (cofounder Tyler hacked out a quick
fallback).

Maybe it's better to just not suppor older browsers?

~~~
djacobs
My guess is that people who are interested in Diaspora, at least at first, are
current on their web browsers. I think there's a trend among web services
(esp. Google) to prod even everyday people away from older browsers,
especially IE6.

Then again, if they want widespread adoption, they can't just support
HTML5-compliant browsers. Hmm...

------
c1sc0
I actually like this refreshing new approach to writing open source software:
keep it closed for several months & code like madmen. If they can get UX
people involved in the closed stage we might even see an open source product
with an elegant ui for once!

~~~
muppetman
Totally agree.

I think the "release often" philosophy is a good one, but too often and you
just open yourself up to "this doesn't work, that's wrong, this is broken etc"

I think knuckle down, code a bunch of good stuff then show it off. Of course
you'll still get the complaints, but it'll be a lot clearer to a lot more
people how it works and the potential it has.

All that said, all they've shown us here is a very simple demo, we have no
understanding of the underlying message passing protocol and its robustness.
It does look promising, but looks of course...

~~~
igravious
Sure. But the mantra is "Release early, release often".

And I guess early means that you don't need to wait until your code-base is
feature complete or at 1.0 to release the code.

By the same token I think you're allowed to do what the Diaspora guys are
doing and lay the foundations first, set the tone of the project and the
general direction and style.

I hope these guys do well but if it ain't them it'll be someone else cuz peer
to peer federated social networking is in the near future of social networking
and I'd much much much prefer if it was open source than not.

~~~
muppetman
Yea, this is pretty much the comment I wish I'd posted.

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oomkiller
It's disappointing to me to see them choose regular HTTP for communication. I
think XMPP PubSub or just regular XMPP messages would work better, and you
could use the existing federated jabber networks. With this, they are probably
going to run into NAT traversal issues, etc.

~~~
misuba
If it can't be hosted on the crappiest major shared host provider you could
name, it isn't a fit for their goals.

Which means it's a total mystery why they're using WebSocket, but yeah.

------
qq66
Despite these guys' good intentions, I'd actually place my bet on an unfunded
startup in this space over these guys who have been put through the hype cycle
before they were ready.

~~~
drats
Yes but remember how important the "seed users" are, which is why Facebook
started where it did. If they truly deliver on the non-corporate, privacy
aspects and keep a slim interface then many "alpha geeks" will swap over. Do
you really care about the 100 or 200 friends you have on Facebook or the core
10-40? Or if all your tech buddies and most of your clued-in friends are on
Diaspora and posting content there they don't post on Facebook, which account
will you log into first? What will your Facebook become then other than a
viewer, rather than a place that you put content? Would you have much trouble
shutting down your Facebook at that point?

I don't see any unfunded startup being able to do anything new in this space,
Facebook offered interface over Myspace. Diaspora offers control over Facebook
- and from this demo they seem to be dispelling the vapour accusations,
although we will have to see how it progresses. Google and Twitter currently
are offering things and will be offering more in this space also. What real
other avenues or general areas do you see a newcomer playing to? Games?
Dating? Work collaboration? An even better interface? I don't see many areas
for traction. Yes there is probably something I haven't thought of, but I
don't think you can place your "bet" on a hypothetical vs these guys with an
interesting demo and plenty of money to keep developing, who have hype and who
are attacking the most vulnerable privacy/information vector in this market
without some reasoning to back it up.

Edit/addendum: I also think these guys rubbed a lot of HN people the wrong way
- although I am not accusing you of this necessarily - because they got decent
crowd-sourced funding in a seemingly haphazard way. Yes they are young, but if
you go back to their pitch it was very slick, and as I said above, this tech
demo goes a fair way to dispel the concerns about their youth/inexperience.

~~~
axod
Personally, I use facebook to communicate with friends and family - neither of
which are universally geeks or techy. So I'd still use facebook.

Just because a few privacy freakouts and geeks flock to this I don't see any
reason anyone else will yet.

~~~
josh33
You sound like the slow-adopters of facebook. In the world we live in with
security becoming more of a general concern, they could be on the front-edge
of the revolution they think they are on. Plus, if they deliver on the UX/UI,
people will use it.

~~~
axod
"In the world we live in with security becoming more of a general concern"

Which world is that? The one where people post minute details of their life on
twitter? The one where they send naked pics of themselves around, expose
themselves on chatroulette?

It's going the other way - people are exposing more and more of themselves
making more of their life public than ever before.

Some geeks are always concerned about privacy/security. How many "normal
people" use PGP to sign their emails?

~~~
johngunderman
Today's concerns for security are not concerns for keeping our information
private. Rather, they are concerns that we will maintain control over our
private information, to be able to share it at our own discretion. Facebook
removes much of this control from the user.

~~~
axod
no evidence to show that facebook users see it that way, or care.

Also FWIW, I think the name "diaspora" is _terrible_ I cannot see it working
at all.

~~~
seancron
The name can be changed, what I want is the technology.

Show me the code and let me develop on it. Let me change the interface, add
features, and do analysis on my social graph. Depending on the license they
release the code under, there could potentially be other services that use the
technology and have a nicer name than Diaspora.

Facebook users might even take notice if Diaspora has a "dislike" button and
access to their Facebook data via Diaspora.

~~~
axod
The issue is, you'll get complete fragmentation and confusion. It won't get
widespread adoption. It's a fun thing for geeks to play with, but I don't
think there is any way in hell this can succeed with the current setup.

~~~
zaphar
It doesn't have to get widespread adoption. It just has to be suitable for me
to use. I don't use facebook hardly at all for posting content. I almost never
log into it.

If this can pull from facebook eventually and perhaps even push to it then
I'll be happy.

It's open source and open protocols. Because of that it's definition of
success is not the same as a startups. Even if the project fails miserably but
in the process causes Facebook to change a little then that will be a success
IMO.

~~~
axod
What is the point of a social network if only you use it? ;)

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seldo
What I'd really like to know is: what are these guys doing with the 200 grand
people pledged? Is it just paying their rent in SF or what?

~~~
axod
What do you think they should spend it on? What did you think they would use
it for?

Creating something like this - or most web startups - isn't expensive, it's
just time consuming.

~~~
BerislavLopac
"Creating something like this - or most web startups - isn't expensive, it's
just time consuming."

Which makes it expensive. Or is your time free?

~~~
axod
Right. but the OP said "Is it just paying their rent in SF or what?"

Which seemed to imply that would be a bad use of money - salaries.

------
stcredzero
What I want to see: DRM for the people! Incorporate White Box Cryptography and
the whole suite of tricks so that users can share certain info then unshare
it. It wouldn't have to be perfect to be of tremendous benefit to many.
(Girlfriend revenge sites won't be thrilled.)

~~~
mjgoins
Can you describe how you envision this working? Why would you choose to use a
client that correctly implemented the drm features? How could a free/open
source client even accomplish the drm?

~~~
stcredzero
I'd only implement this for completely closed platforms. All bets are off for
hacked and jailbroken devices. The point isn't to provide absolute security.
It's to provide an _audit trail_ and some measure of security -- enough to
foil an average consumer, but not enough to stand up to concerted attack.

 _Why would you choose to use a client that correctly implemented the drm
features?_

To avoid prosecution under the DMCA. To avoid having to jailbreak your device.
Because the effort of hacking isn't worth it. Current streaming DRM
technologies have a good-enough track record, in part because what they
protect isn't that valuable.

Big companies don't have access to perfect DRM, but it does useful things for
them. Why shouldn't individuals have access to the same tools to protect their
own data against such companies? In particular, big corporations are just as
vulnerable to legal remedies as individuals.

------
aditya
What is the nature of their relationship with Pivotal? Anyone know?

~~~
sant0sk1
It is most likely a client relationship. Pivotal is big on getting their
clients into their office so they can participate in the XP process.

~~~
fizx
Probably not. They don't have enough money yet to afford Pivotal. This is
probably just good PR for both sides, as well as relationship-building, so
that when Diaspora gets an A round, they can start spending it at Pivotal.

------
shiftb
Happy to see them working with Pivotal, that gives me a lot more confidence in
them. They're working with top notch mentors.

------
lhnz
I don't think this will catch on. Diaspora is too hard for people to say... ;)

~~~
robgough
I was surprised by the way the bloke in the video pronounced it actually, was
thinking more dey-ah-spore-ah.

I think there is an argument for a simpler name, but at this stage it's hardly
the most important factor.

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jchonphoenix
If you step back from the "hype", not to directly oppose the many views
present on this board, and analyze their statements, it appears they have more
reasons to fail than succeed. The most worrying thing I see is their reliance
on pivotal labs. They mention it in passing, but it would appear that the 4
founders of diaspora have very little technical knowledge and have outsourced
the majority of their code. They are relying on someone else to do the most
fundamental part of their startup and that, in and of itself, is extremely
worrisome.

~~~
telemachos
I'm not quite sure what makes you say "the 4 founders...have very little
technical knowledge and have outsourced the majority of their code."

Here's what I read,

 _After getting settled in ole San Fran, our first day at Pivotal Labs was
June 7th. Not only has Pivotal lent us desks and monitors for the summer, they
push us daily to drive development from the interface and focus on the
experience, rather than providing just a tool for developers to hack on.
Getting periodic help from Pivots has already been transformative on the
outcome of Diaspora.

So Pivotal Labs, thanks for letting us use your stuff, eat your food, and for
teaching us your agile ninja ways. We owe you one!_

That doesn't sound like Pivotal is writing code for them. It sounds like
Pivotal is (1) giving them (free?) space to work and (2) mentoring them
regularly. The bits below what I quoted - where they talk about specific
technology and features, say "we did this..." and "we are adding that..."
Again, no implication of outsourcing.

My recollection was that they were NYU undergrads in CS. Why do you think they
lack technical knowledge?

~~~
jchonphoenix
Pivotal Labs doesn't work for free. If you go to Pivotal's front page, what
they do is pretty much do all the coding for a startup. They take a business
person's ideas and then code them up and implement them. From there they then
teach the business people either how to maintain it or how to hire a dev team
that can (or work with the dev team they've hired to learn how to work with
the codebase).

Its just what pivotal does for a living, so my logical conclusion was that
Diaspora was using Pivotal for code, and their comments on their blog were
filtered to with PR speak.

~~~
telemachos
You may be right, but that's an awful lot of speculation. As for "Pivotal Labs
doesn't work for free," the publicity of "helping the famous kids dream big"
may be more than enough payment. (That's assuming we want to be ultra-cynical,
which I have mixed feelings about frankly.)

------
cmelbye
Anyone else turn HD on and look at the URLs?
<http://washington.joindiaspora.com/> et al. I've been trying to create an
account without luck, but they're running the app in the development
environment so I've seen a lot of in depth back traces and things like that.
They're using Rails 3 (beta 4), Thin and EventMachine's async features,
Mongo/MongoMapper, Devise, and Warden.

------
aplari
Is that asterisk part of their logo? It's really distracting. I spent a good
few moments looking for a footnote, until it dawned on me that it was just a
visual gimmick.

So instead of hearing about their progress, I'm scanning their footer. I say
change the logo, because it's first thing on every page. Thus an awesome
distractor for whatever they want to tell.

~~~
melvinram
What did you expect to find in a footnote for a logo/company name?

~~~
Kliment
Trademarks, disclaimers, parent company references. (X is a registered
trademark of Y. Y and X are not affiliated with nor endorsed by similar-
sounding Υ or Х. Y is a fully owned subsidiary of Z. All rights reserved. Blah
Blah.)

------
andymoe
I think it will be really interesting to see if they do the security
correctly. If my entire network wants to remain anonymous to each other then
that needs to be supported. If I want to create a separate public persona - I
should be able to do that too.

All communication between nodes should be really hard to intercept/fake and
should be strongly encrypted, minimal logs should be stored and all content
should be strongly encrypted on disk. I'm sure there are those here that could
tell us what that might look like from an implementation standpoint and I'd
love to hear everyone's thoughts.

People are already comfortable with this mode of communication and we can make
the world just a little better place if this new platform for communication
was really secure by default and worked not only for the average internet user
posting pictures of their cat but also the occasional government dissident
organizing a protest.

------
fizx
An interesting note is that Pivotal Lab's VP of Technology, Ian McFarland
(@imf), was Friendster's Chief Architect. Ian is one of the nicest people in
the SF startup scene, and can share the experience of Friendster's growth,
pain, and subsequent downfall.

------
kunjaan
What just happened in the message passing demo?

~~~
ohwaitnvm
An offscreen computer on another seed posted some messages. They then
propagated from one seed to the others and then websockets automagically sent
the posts through to the users sitting at their browsers, which jammed them
into the page as it received them (each of the six windows being a different
user viewing their own seed and its feed.)

------
paulnelligan
Looks interesting. I really hope they try to change it up completely from 'the
facebook model', while still including essential features - personally I'd
like to see more emphasis on the virality (yes, virality!) of groups.

These guys seem pretty smart, energetic, and optimistic. Anything that breaks
the status quo is good.

However, they could have used some screen capture for the demo ... It wasn't
entirely clear to me what was going on there.

------
pclark
They're focussing on features, not benefits.

------
BerislavLopac
One more thing I don't really understand -- what will Diaspora offer that
other similar projects, already implemented don't already have? I'm talking
the likes of Appleseed, PeerBook, PeerSoN, OneSocialWeb and Peerouette...

~~~
ramy_d
honestly? I think it's hype and polish (then again, i've seen the other sites,
and they aren't far away from good polish, so mostly hype).

edit: i'm not trying to make a comment about hype cycles -_- or how they are
going to fail. i'm just Diaspora is pretty much those projects, but with the
attention and money they all deserved at a time when they were (are?) most
active.

------
tyrelb
congrats on the success - good to hear you're on track, and I'm excited to try
logging in!

how can average people like me help out?

~~~
rroy1590
patience. realistic expectations. encouragement.

------
tmcw
... so when you post a message, it's like sending 300-400 messages to up to
300-400 servers?

Uh, yeah, that'll scale.

~~~
qw
IRC servers can have lots of clients that receive messages, and they have no
problems sending thousands of messages to connected clients. Diaspora's nodes
seems to be both server and client, but the mechanics are the same. When it
receives a message, it's just like a IRC client, and when it sends a message
it is like an IRC server.

Unless each physical server is overloaded with busy nodes, I think it will
scale well. There is a limit to how many friends that subscribe to an average
user.

A possible improvement could be to have "repeater" nodes for popular users
with tens of thousands of readers. Instead of sending 20.000 messages, you
only send messages to 2-3 repeaters for example. The subscribers would be
connected to the repeater node, and not the original node. I imagine that this
could be controlled by setting a privacy level on your messages. Public
messages would go to the repeaters, while private messages would be sent
directly to your closest friends and family

~~~
wmf
OTOH, if you have 20,000 "friends" maybe Diaspora _should_ force you to buy a
more powerful server. Social networking is one thing and social marketing is
another.

------
robryan
What language are they using?

~~~
telemachos
From the FAQ:

 _What language are you programming Diaspora in?

Ruby, with a bit of Rails and other Ruby frameworks thrown in._

------
khangtoh
It looks more like a Twitter replacement rather than a Facebook.

------
joubert
Im excited to try it out.

------
alexro
Made me think about Web 3.0 possible definition - websites connected

~~~
weixiyen
web 2.0 - ajax

web 3.0 - comet

~~~
manveru
Sorry, but they're the same.

~~~
weixiyen
No, they are related, but not the same, particularly on the server side.

