
Working at Netflix Sounds Like Hell - mojoe
https://gizmodo.com/working-at-netflix-sounds-like-hell-1830020977
======
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18304329](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18304329)

------
clarle
I'm an ex-Netflix engineer (voluntarily left in March to work on my own
company, worked there just under 3 years).

I don't know what it's like from the executive or middle management side of
things, but from the engineering side of things, I liked the fact that people
were transparent about their mistakes and there were always detailed write-ups
about any technical incidents.

Incident post-mortems were always incredibly good for that reason, and I never
felt like my job was on the line if I admitted to messing up somewhere.

I liked it a lot there, good work/life balance and never really felt stressed.
If anything, I didn't think there was enough interesting work to go around as
the company was growing a lot bigger.

But as an engineer, I wouldn't mind going back.

------
shroom
Stories I’ve hear from friends to my family who worked at Netflix made me
cringe. Regular meetings where everyone at the meeting have to do
presentations about their own recent work at the company and basically have to
present why they should stay instead of the ”other guy” who will be fired. No
rest with constant fear of being fired or the alternative if you ”make it” is
constant preasure of performaning better than other teams. This breeds a
backstabbing culture for sure.

 _edit spelling_

~~~
HillaryBriss
it's interesting to put this into the larger context of "the US needs more
programmers and STEM grads." if that is true, how does Netflix find additional
people to hire? how does it survive in a competitive labor market when it
treats employees in this way?

~~~
pixelperfect
"the US needs more programmers and STEM grads" can always mean "we wish we
could hire programmers for $45,000 a year, but due to supply and demand we
have to pay them more than that"

~~~
kamaal
I guess in this case they are more than willing to $500K/yr compensation
packages. That's far away from $45K/yr packages.

So the question is how many people can suffer through this kind of hell
grinder at $500K/yr.

~~~
JBlue42
People suffer through a lot more for a lot lot less.

------
SigmundA
_CEO Reed Hastings is described as a dedicated adherent to the culture and
several former employees said he is “unencumbered by emotion”—in a good way._

Is this not the definition of a psychopath?

This really does sound like hell to me. Then again a lot of modern corporate
culture especially in tech seems to be moving toward this type of hell.
Basically a form of social Darwinism.

Life and more specifically happiness is not efficient. Maximizing profit and
growth and performance might work better unencumbered by emotions, survival of
only the fittest, but does that lead to happiness?

~~~
austenallred
Or a Stoic?

~~~
strangerlands
Stoic maybe if the same rules applied to him, but it is not the case, they
apply to everyone except himself. Maybe it is just me, but I don't like when
people apply harsh rules for everyone except themselves. Cult or dictatorship
come to mind.

~~~
beatgammit
When you're the owner/manager of something, you get to decide how people use
the things under your control. It's the same way if you let someone borrow
your car or other valuable possession: you'll see rules for how that item can
be used (e.g. don't take the Lamborghini off-roading).

If that behavior extends outside of things you _should_ control (e.g. you try
to control your friends and acquaintances), then it can be considered
psychopathic or sociopathic. If you're just trying to minimize harm to things
you control, then I'd argue that it's normal.

The CEO of a company is very much interested in running things efficiently.
Without more information, there's really nothing to suggest this CEO has a
mental disorder.

~~~
strangerlands
Not everything that is lawful is also ethical. He can do it and I firmly
believe it is unethical at the same time. Also, and I am not necessarily
referring to the CEO, being a bad person – when the noun would actually start
with the letter a – doesn't mean having a mental disorder.

------
akras14
On one hand this seem crazy. On another, every place I worked at was full of
free-loaders who did nothing and never got fired. I wonder if things are
different at Netflix.

~~~
Someone1234
Are they firing "free-loaders" or people who are just worse at playing
politics/self-promoting?

We have extremely quiet people at work, few know what they do, but they're
actually extremely productive, rarely make waves (good or bad), and help keep
longer term goals.

The "Rockstar" types join, get all excitable, make a handful of rapid (often
good) changes, burn out, and leave. Likely to start again at their next
workplace.

~~~
prolikewh0a
I'm extremely quiet at work and don't really have any work friends at least in
my department (helps stifle drama), yet am consistent with my productivity,
have clear ticket queues every day or they're in a status where I'm waiting
for a response from another engineer. I've had my manager tell me in 1:1's
that people report me for doing nothing all day except listening to music.
I've been here 3 years.

I'm content with just sitting here and doing this job for now and get paid
enough to live at my means, so I make no attempts to get a promotion where
I'll have much more work and stress, and make little attempts to go above and
beyond. I just stay consistent and I'm seen as a free loader by some.
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
livesinhel
How can this be? Do you have regular stand-up meetings?

~~~
prolikewh0a
They were taken away from us around a year ago. They were very beneficial, but
leadership said they 'were a waste of time'. Our team has suffered with
communication and staying on track with problem issues since. Oh well though.
I just keep doing the same work.

------
claydavisss
I had a Netflix offer this year I declined (yes, people decline Netflix now
and then)

The salary was eye-popping...$400k. That's just to be a senior developer.
There were RSUs on top of this so total comp was probably $500k. That's crazy!

I knew if I joined I would be terminated but that didn't bother me...the
salary was crazy and apparently the goodbye package is also generous. I
suppose it's sort of nuts to know you will be fired from day one though.

In fairness they make sure you understand what you are getting in to. My
future manager even phoned me on a Saturday to make sure I understood. So I
have respect for them

When the next recession hits, working in tech will get worse and even the
monster salaries will go away. Almost no one here has had to experience a real
drop in demand for developers

~~~
strangerlands
There are no RSUs at Netflix, just for everyone 5% each year of annual salary
in free stock options at 40% of current value, vesting every month. You can
also use up to 100% of your salary for buying stock options at 40% of current
value. The policy made rich many people who invested heavily in the stock
options program years back.

The severance package is 4 months of salary.

I doubt you got an offer from there, because it is all very clear, or you did
not pay any attention.

~~~
claydavisss
Dude I don't even know how the stocks work at my current employer. Can't force
you to believe I got an offer there and I'm not forwarding you my offer
letter...so choose to believe me or not.

~~~
strangerlands
Putting aside the very rude "dude", it is not a matter of how RSUs work or do
not work, more simply they never talk about RSUs because they do not give
RSUs. As I said, you never got an offer or you did not pay any attention. It
is fine either way, of course. No need for any letter.

------
CPLX
The big question, of course, is does Netflix succeed because of, or in spite
of, this policy.

~~~
ashelmire
They’ve been pushing the same product since inception; they could do nothing
except maintain current tech and catalogue, which is what they’ve more or less
been doing. So it’s in spite of. They could have any culture, hire a herd of
thousands of cats and pay them half a million each, and they wouldn’t lose
much.

The only thing they need to do to survive is maintain rights to enough shows
people are willing to pay for.

~~~
icebraining
_They’ve been pushing the same product since inception_

I don't see how that's true at all. They were originally an American DVD mail
order service that rented other people's movies.

They're now a global streaming service with a strong content production
division.

They've change both the product, the business model, the customer base and the
tech.

~~~
falcolas
They made that pivot a decade ago now. The current work for most of the tech
employees is likely exactly maintenance.

They could be looking at another pivot, but that's yet to be seen.

~~~
icebraining
I wasn't speaking only regarding tech, since the previous poster talked about
the catalogue, which has definitively changed with the Originals (the first is
just five years old).

But even regarding tech, they've been making new things; for example, they
moved from physical data centers to their OpenConnect appliances.

------
ymlaree
Netflix is following FB tracks it seems, 1st degrade the user experience, then
poor company ethics surface. Soon we'll need food like "humane" labels in
tech.. [edit : user not customer]

~~~
taneq
What did the user experience used to be like, if the current version is
'degraded'? We only just got Netflix but it seems pretty slick and well-
thought-out.

~~~
iron0013
Those who have been subscribed for a long time know that the content selection
is abysmal compared to what it was in the past. A long time ago, I remember
feeling surprised when they didn't have something specific I wanted to see;
now I am surprised when they DO have something specific I want to see.

~~~
JBlue42
That and there were things that, yes, might've taken a little time to
maintain, but at least gave it a 'face' outside of normal corporate BS such as
being able to share stuff with friends on there. Also, star ratings going
away, I think reviews are gone now too, as well as the ability to dismiss
things you aren't interested in the past (I think that disappeared a few years
ago).

The UI and findability sucks if you're on a PC but is fine if you're on a big
screen tv (which is the direction I assume it's been aimed in, as well as big
buttons for touch screen or visibility). When I was subscribed, I would use a
third party website like instantwatcher to easily sort and search what so I
could browse quickly.

Recommendations and the whatever algorithms they're using now aren't very
useful (maybe coming full circle on the limited content leading to limited
choice).

------
youarentryan
I really liked working at Netflix, but yeah... puhrty intense culture.

Also seems like the Hollywood office is becoming more "Hollywood", which might
prove problematic for avoiding all of the dumb mistakes Hollywood people make.

With so much attention going to the content side of the biz, I also wonder if
top engineers would feel more celebrated at Google, Facebook, or start-ups
where their contributions are seen as the primary innovation driver of the
business.

~~~
JBlue42
What sort of dumb mistakes?

Also, what engineering/technical challenges do you think Netflix still has to
resolve? It seems like things are stable and right now the focus is on content
growth / ownership, especially in the face of other companies catching up and
trying to compete in the streaming space.

------
huffmsa
Sounds like being on a sports team at a high level. It's not for you, then
it's not for you.

It's business, not personal.

~~~
tluyben2
> Sounds like being on a sports team at a high level.

In the sports that doesn't pay too much (for most people working at Netflix)
even though you are in the top of the world. With the high level sports you
get some kind of satisfaction that you got further than anyone (or some other
reason beyond money) and not for the money; most people at Netflix probably
work there for the money.

~~~
huffmsa
But if you make it at Netflix for more that 6 months you're probably a stud
and can take your skills anywhere. You are at the top of your game.

Working with video at large scale is tough man.

~~~
kamaal
>>Working with video at large scale is tough man.

The question of course is how much staff works on video tech. Even at a
company like Google, most people are not working on Google search. There are
teams that do all kinds of work behind the scenes to make this happen. Like
Build teams, SRE, QR DevOps etc.

The tech part is hard, but is largely solved. AWS has today made it easy to
play the scale game. The unsolved riddle there is affordability not tech.
That's the whole point behind Amazon Prime anyway. If Netflix was using their
infrastructure to be successful, they might as well have done it themselves
and they have.

Another big part about these companies is they oversell the role of
technology, and the role of tech people in their success. Content is way
important a thing for these companies than tech will ever be. Interesting
content to consume is what keeps these people in the game.

There is a reason why some thing like New York Times is still around. And they
are not even a tech company.

------
booleandilemma
I like to work for a company that’s fun and stable, not one that sounds like
it could be a faction in Divergent.

------
dba7dba
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-
are-...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-
psychopaths-australian-study-finds/)

"The study of 261 senior professionals in the United States found that 21 per
cent had clinically significant levels of psychopathic traits. The rate of
psychopathy in the general population is about one in a hundred."

And I personally think if you examine ceos of highly successful companies, the
ratio will be higher than 1 in 5.

Sure it's ONE study. But it actually makes sense. You don't get to the top in
modern corporate world (especially hyper competitive one like the tech)
without being slightly crazy.

------
Shorel
I wonder if this model would work better with a little bit of gamification.

Let me explain: You get fired for not performing. And the gamification part is
you can get hired again in that same company, even same position, let's say,
three or six months after you were fired.

You get your old salary, benefits everything. And the mental relief that being
laid of is not permanent.

Then you work different this time, with the experience of having done this job
before and the experience of being without a job too.

It would benefit Netflix a lot more than firing people in a permanent basis,
IMO. And with these ultra high salaries, people would go back there.

~~~
bjhoops1
_fry squinting_ can't tell if ironic or earnest...

------
xivzgrev
This isn't all that surprising. Almost 10 years ago Reed literally published
all these tenants in a culture presentation that made the rounds in SV. It
very much mentions keeper test.
[https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/reed2001](https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/reed2001)

Now what is interesting are the anecdotes about how it impacts people. People
often feel motivated by fear, and sometimes feel shamed, etc.

------
netheril96
Relevant:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15607383](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15607383)

------
lifeisstillgood
"""One employee expressed the feeling that they live in fear of being fired
every day at an executive meeting. A vice president named Karen Barragan was
said to have responded: “Good, because fear drives you.” """

isn't this normal (for contractors?)

i mean it is terrible (armies whose job is to kill people put a pot of effort
into avoiding just such feelings)

I do wonder why businesses so easily follow this route.

~~~
HillaryBriss
> _fear drives you_

maybe it's interesting here that, in the last couple of days on HN, we've seen
several stories to the effect that long-term chronic stress is literally
damaging people's brains.

given that, i wonder how a Netflix competitor might exploit the defects in
this hiring/firing strategy.

~~~
snovv_crash
Exactly my thoughts. In fact, from what I've seen companies where people lead
"from the front", ie. by example, have much higher productivity and better
retention of top performers than companies where the management goes around
threatening people if they don't perform.

------
azr79
A lot of contradicting testimonies in this thread, I don't know what to
believe anymore.

------
detaro
This article reports on what another publication wrote. The original has a
discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18304329](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18304329)

------
sunnyP
Their environment seems similar to the movie In Bruges. I wonder if Reed
Hastings is so dedicated that he would “Keeper Test” himself.

------
helen___keller
Reminds me of stories about working at Goldman Sachs. I guess that’s fair when
Tech has become the 21st century go-to yuppie industry

------
objektif
I guess people still stick around because of the stock price performance.

~~~
kakaorka
Isn't Netflix's compensation to employees all cash?

~~~
hatred
You get the option to invest any portion of your salary in NFLX stock options.

~~~
icebraining
Do you mean pre-tax?

~~~
hatred
hmm, I don't think it is pre-tax. May be some NFLX employee can confirm.

~~~
icebraining
Then it doesn't seem like a great perk, I can trade my post-tax salary for
NFLX stock too...

------
fouc
Sounds a bit like Amazon's work environment?

------
kamaal
>>CEO Reed Hastings is described as a dedicated adherent to the culture

It really isn't culture unless it applies to yourself. Does Mr Hastings hold
himself to the same standards himself as does to everybody else?

>>Kill or be killed seems to be accepted as a mode of operation.

A pathetic excuse for a toxic work environment than anything else. This will
lead to non-existent to negligible co-operation inside and across teams.
Stealth political projects and alliances to sabotage internal projects. Cartel
style power structures, purges and internal power dynamics. You usual _ala
carte_ toxic political power play.

Of course this happens in all companies. But the speed is low. Here it feels
like the CEO derives please pouring a catalyst into a run away chemical
reaction.

>>It’s also led to culture shock as the company rapidly expands, takes on
bigger loads of debt, and faces stiff competition.

Based on everything I've read so far. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Bezos
eats these people for lunch in a few years.

Bezos isn't known to be employee friendly either, but he is also not a fool.

There is a always a fine line between working hard towards a purpose, and
pointless busyness just for the heck of it.

>>One executive said he was fired because he did not inform others about
another employee’s medical condition out of respect for their privacy. Netflix
saw this as not being “forthright with us around a major employee issue.” But
Jonathan Friedland, former chief communications officer was a little too
forthright and open when transparently talking out issues. He was fired this
summer

Damned if you do, damned if you don't situations happen in processes where
people want to screw you regardless, and not exactly because of the merit of
your case.

Here the cartel boss seems to maintain early _communism-esque_ purge lists.

------
patrickg_zill
Sounds like a bacchanalia for psychopaths...

