
Phone Companies Ink Deal With All 50 States And D.C. To Combat Robocalls - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/22/753524482/phone-companies-ink-deal-with-all-50-states-and-d-c-to-combat-robocalls
======
viraptor
As much as SHAKEN/STIR is a fun tech, I think the article misses the part
which will actually hurt the callers:

> Require Traceback Cooperation in Contracts. For all new and renegotiated
> contracts governing the transport of voice calls, use best efforts to
> require cooperation in traceback investigations by identifying the upstream
> provider from which the suspected illegal robocall entered its network or by
> identifying its own customer if the call originated in its network.

This is the amazing low-tech solution: It basically means companies will stop
ignoring what they knew is happening for ages. As long as LE takes on the
uncovered sources, I feel like this is the most important principle.

~~~
reaperducer
I'd have more faith in it if it didn't include the phrase "use best efforts."

~~~
jerf
I'm pretty sure that's basically lawyer-speak for "you can't sue us if a
robocall gets through; we never committed to anything". Don't worry about it,
if they follow through and it works it won't have meant much if they said
that.

~~~
vageli
> Don't worry about it, if they follow through and it works it won't have
> meant much if they said that.

That's a pretty big if though, and if it doesn't work that statement precludes
recourse.

~~~
jerf
They were never going to give you recourse anyhow. They'd be idiots to do so.
I certainly would not be willing to personally guarantee that hostile,
intelligent human beings will not find some way past the security I implement.
I'd love to be able to, but when the opposition is as smart as you and
generally endowed with more time and motivation, giving out lots of recourse
if they do manage to score some points is a fast route to bankruptcy.

If you think about it, most of our normal concepts of "recourse" involve
things entirely under the other party's control, and in serious contracts,
still often have a call out of "acts of God". It'd be like a football team
offering legal recourse if the other team wins; not the brightest move.

------
parliament32
Slightly OT, but android's "screen call" feature has been my number 1 tool is
fighting the robocall battle. It's more responsive than the "let all calls go
to voicemail" approach, and 80% of robocalls disconnect by themselves when the
bot starts talking. It still requires my live "attention" when the call is
going through but I'm not that upset about a few wasted seconds, especially if
it lets me grab a legitimate call when it's happening.

[https://www.androidcentral.com/how-use-call-screen-
feature-p...](https://www.androidcentral.com/how-use-call-screen-feature-
pixel-3)

~~~
Shebanator
Glad you like it. We're hiring :-)

~~~
Scoundreller
Has GOOG ever not been hiring?

------
jerkstate
I started getting the "Apple Support" scam robocall a couple weeks ago, and I
decided to have some fun with the operator who tries to get you to install
malware on your system. Slow playing, playing dumb, acting like they are
talking about fruit not computers, and so on. It was fun for a little bit.

So they must have put me on a different list. Now I get the same call with the
same intro, but when you press "1" \- it connects you not to the scam
operator, but to another hapless individual who's been robo-dialed. I get this
call about 10x a day now.

I hope they throw the book at these clowns.

~~~
hatchnyc
Did this once, after 40 minutes or so of pretending to run a dozen different
diagnostic tests on my computer the guy asked me to read him an error from the
log. I told him it said something like "Fatal System Exception 0x0051: Someone
is trying to play a scam on you."

He just screamed "fuck you!" and hung up.

~~~
novok
Product Idea: Scam caller time waster.

When you get a call, press a button to redirect them to your time waster. Hire
them from the same area that the scammers hire people for these things.

~~~
btilly
Already done.

See [https://jollyrogertelephone.com/](https://jollyrogertelephone.com/) and
enjoy.

------
ConfusedDog
I accidentally discovered a way to battle this. I had a phone number from a
different state, far away from the state I'm living right now. I often get
calls from the old state which I have no business with, and occasionally get
calls from other states (not the one I'm living in) to test to see if I pick
up. Robo caller has 1/50 chance of hitting the right state, even lower for
hitting the right region.

I let all strange and not-in-my-contact numbers go to voice mail which I left
in default. If it's important enough, hit my voice mail, I will call back. I
got vastly reduced number of robocalls in the past year or so this way.

~~~
Balgair
Oh, I just got rid of voicemail all together. Just let it ring, then drop, if
I don't know it.

My friend used the Off-Hook tone [0] as th initial sound on their voicemail,
then followed by them actually leaving an invation to leave a message. It
seemed for a while there that the robocall would just interpert the off-hook
tone as a dead number and not wait the 3 seconds. But then they started
waiting until the line dropped and that trick stopped working.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-
hook_tone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-hook_tone)

~~~
criddell
I'd like voicemail only for people in my address book.

It feels like there are so many easy ways to make the phone app better yet
nothing ever seems to change with it. My phone is in my pocket now instead of
on my desk, but it's basically the same thing I had in 1982. Why is there so
little innovation around the telephone and voice calls?

~~~
ghaff
Well, one reason might be that people who are not in your address book--who
you can otherwise easily "Do Not Disturb"\--may be emergency calls related to
people you know but the originators, e.g. police/hospital are not in your
contacts list. Those are more or less exactly the sort of calls I want to be
able to leave a voicemail even if I don't otherwise process their call.

Unfortunately, it means I get various voicemails threatening to delete my SSN
or that police are coming to arrest me. But, other than making it harder for
scammers, I'm not sure what the fix is other than basically switching your
phone to a pure whitelist system.

~~~
criddell
You're agreeing with me, I think. There's a ton of innovation possible with
the phone app that isn't happening. There's no reason there couldn't be
curated white lists that you subscribe to for stuff like that.

------
awinder
""I salute today's bipartisan, nationwide effort to encourage best practices
for combating robocalls and spoofing and am pleased that several voice service
providers have agreed to abide by them," said FCC Chairman Ajit Pai in a
statement."

This guy is THE absolute worst. 51 attorneys general were able to rally to a
cause that the chairman of the FCC could only pay marginal attention to (and
under duress at that; he didn't pay this issue any attention until political
blowback started).

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I try to be charitable in my assumptions about the motives of civil servants.
I think their jobs are more difficult than most imagine, and the press
coverage isn't always fair.

But I'm really struggling to find a charitable explanation for how Ajit Pai is
conducting himself as FCC commissioner.

Can anyone think of a plausible theory that doesn't involve malice [EDIT: I
should have said "self-serving" instead of "malice"] or extreme incompetence
on his part?

~~~
ars
> for how Ajit Pai is conducting himself as FCC commissioner.

What things are bothering you? Unlike the insinuation of the person your
replied to, in reality he worked on this Caller ID issue almost immediately
upon becoming chairman. (He put out an action paper July 2017, and became
Chairman in January.)

Net Neutrality seems to have had zero actual (as opposed to theoretical)
problems, so that wasn't a problem either.

So what things are you seeing that you want explanations for?

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
My problems with Pai's leadership are the same gripes you'll find from
Googling those various issues. Apologies but I don't have time to dig up
references at the moment.

~~~
ars
So basically you have no gripes?

> "But I'm really struggling to find a charitable explanation"

An explanation for _what_?? Ajit Pai was the one who got this Called ID
situation taken care of. What in the world do you have to complain about?

I don't need references - what are _you_ complaining about?

------
tzs
Careful how you respond to spoofed ID calls.

There is no one, either individual or business, that has the same area code
and prefix as my cell phone and would have any reason to call me, so when I
see my area code and prefix in the caller ID, I know it is a spam call.

For quite a while, I'd respond by immediately declining the call, but I wasn't
careful how I did it. It turned out I was not just hanging up or sending them
to voice mail--I was hanging up _and_ sending back a text message that said
something like "I'm not available right now".

Of course the text message does not go to the spammer. It goes to the person
whose number is being spoofed, who would then sometimes text me or call me
trying to find out who I was and why I suddenly text them out of the blue.

Take a moment to make sure you know what the various call decline options on
your phone actually do.

~~~
NoodleIncident
Why would anyone want their "decline call" button to let the person calling
that they're being intentionally ignored? That just seems terrible for both
real and fake calls.

~~~
asdff
Because iPhones lock up unless you decline the call.

------
TBurette
What I don't understand is why it is such a prevalent issue in the US but not
in Europe.

I've had a couple of French phone numbers over the past 15 years and I can't
recall a single time I got spam call (though I did get an occasional spam text
message with a shady link). I know my parents occasionally get some call but
it's a small handful of offenders that keep repeating the same call again and
again.

I don't think it's a technical difference as you can make call using IPBX/VOIP
without too much trouble here.

~~~
IshKebab
Isn't it because local calls are free in America, but they've never really
been free here. Also I _do_ get spam calls in the UK occasionally. Maybe once
every couple of months.

Also they're more obvious because they're always from a landline number, and
barely anyone uses landlines anymore. In America landline and mobile numbers
are mixed so you can't tell (as far as I know).

~~~
Scoundreller
Oh, I’m sure American telcos get paid to terminate calls, it’s just a tiny
amount (less than 1 cent/minute). It’s still worth it for the scammers, and
the telcos like the extra revenue, especially as POTS declines.

My VOIP provider charges a lot more for EU call termination, which probably
makes scattershot robocalls unprofitable.

------
todipa
The way I handle this is to create a contact called SPAM RISK and add all the
spam calls I get to that contact. My siblings do the same. Once a month, when
we go to our parent's house, we sync this contact (we block this "caller").
Our parents are getting old and are starting to fall prey to these robo
callers. I haven't figured out another way to help them...

~~~
lprubin
Thats a good start. What about telling them to never answer a call from an
unknown number. Any legit call will leave a voicemail and that will weed out a
large number of scammers.

Next, if the voicemail is clearly a robot voice, make sure they don’t respond
until checking with you first. That should weed out another big chunk.

~~~
toast0
> What about telling them to never answer a call from an unknown number.

Just yesterday, I got a call with caller ID for Chase bank, audio in Chinese.
Trusting caller ID is a bad choice (at least currently)

~~~
fortran77
Exactly! Telling people to "only pick up from numbers you know" is not good
advice. The whole point of this article is that caller IDs can be spoofed.
That's what these new protocols are all about.

------
segmondy
Waste their time. If I'm not too busy. I answer their phone calls and I waste
as much time as possible. If everyone answered the calls, kept them on phone
for a minute. They would find something else to do. I kept one on for almost
10 minutes today. Insurance call, I told them I don't have the VIN and have to
go downstairs to get it. Told them I live on the 8th floor and we don't have a
working elevator. Told them I'm on a crutch and walking slow. The idiot was
willing to wait until I told them I got downstairs and needed to go back up to
get my car key.

~~~
e40
I use the "my wallet is upstairs" and "wait, having trouble finding my wallet"
when a CC is needed. I routinely keep them on the line for 10m while I work,
then tell them why I did it. Sometimes they debate me, mostly they hang up
angry.

I usually start with, "hey, quick question before I give you the CC#: why did
you spoof your number?" I had one guy try and tell me I didn't understand
"VoIP, that's just how it works." Weirdly, I ended up hanging up on him,
because he wanted to continue to argue after I told him he was wrong.

------
bmurphy1976
I just got a call yesterday with the caller ID "CHASE ATM" and when I let
Google screen the call it was one of those Chinese language scam calls. I get
~2-3 of these scam calls in Chinese a day, even though I'm Irish. It's fucking
irritating, but the fact that they can be so brazen as to have "CHASE ATM" as
the caller ID is dumbfounding. It's a goddamn shame our government can't
function and scams like this are allowed to flourish.

I'm waiting for the "gotchas" to come to light that will allow the status quo
to continue. Seems par for the course so far.

~~~
umanwizard
Do you live in Ireland? If so, it's a bit sad for me to learn that this
robocall garbage is present in other developed countries, not just the US...

~~~
bmurphy1976
No, Chicago.

------
dgellow
Is robocalling mainly a US issue? I don't think I ever faced robocalls in
Western Europe.

~~~
reaperducer
_Is robocalling mainly a US issue? I don 't think I ever faced robocalls in
Western Europe._

I've seen Europeans on HN complaining about robocalls. I'm pretty sure Germany
is one of the countries that gets them.

~~~
nougatbyte
We also get robocalls, had a few cases where neighbours got contacted by
"Microsoft support". But one can report to the Bundesnetzagentur. Don't know
how effective they are.

------
fossuser
iOS 13 fixes this by finally adding a white list option that sends all non
contact numbers to voicemail.

I haven’t gotten a robocall since the beta started and it’s been great.

~~~
alyandon
Yep. Such a simple solution that covers 90% of spam/scam problem and yet I
still have to install 3rd party dialer apps on Android to get that
functionality. :(

------
rynop
I have a simple low tech solution that is practical for m̶o̶s̶t̶ some.

Change your number to an area code that is outside of where you live - ideally
a different state altogether.

If you get a call from an area code outside of where you live it’s probably
Robo. If you get a call from area code of where you actually live, it’s
probably legit. Ex: kids school, daycare, healthcare provider etc.

~~~
taylortrusty
I'd say changing one's phone number to be of a state they don't reside is not
practical for most.

~~~
rynop
Agree, "most" was a bad word choice, "some" is probably better.

------
jjtheblunt
Wouldn't iOS and Android builds that have a switch to only allow inbound calls
from numbers in contacts effectively end robocalls to most cellphones?

This idea doesn't work for landlines, of course.

For legitimate new callers, they'd be shunted just once.

~~~
ggggtez
And... what if you don't have a smart phone? Did you forget that there are
other kinds of cellphones too?

The issue is that the telephone system basically has no security/privacy/abuse
defense mechanisms, and phone companies have done nearly nothing to fix that
in the last 100 years. Well, unless your scam is stealing from the phone
company (ala phreakers). Then maybe they'd try to fix it.

------
coding123
The latest strategy the robocallers are deploying is NOT to copy your prefix.
They caught on to the blockers that do prefix filters.

~~~
reaperducer
I must be getting some real low-end robocallers on my work phone then, because
I got six of these neighbor prefix calls just yesterday.

------
duxup
My wife is bombarded with fake lawsuit and IRS calls.

I get at least 3 calls a day although the volume will drop and climb here or
there.

------
garraeth
Anyone else getting a 404 clicking the "anti-robocall principles" link within
the article?

------
labster
I’m starting to think that maybe we should give robocallers the death penalty.
Maybe there’s some sort of humanist counterargument, but I can’t think of any
right now. Annoying millions and defrauding hundreds of people daily has got
to cause at least as much cumulative social disruption as murder, right?

~~~
greggyb
Punishment should be commensurate with crime. If the penalty for robocalling
is death, then there's no disincentive from performing worse crimes to avoid
punishment for robocalling.

If I'm already at risk of death penalty, I'll have fewer compunctions about
assaulting or killing someone who threatens to out me.

------
gesman
1\. Treat Robocall offenders like pedophiles. Both outside and inside of
prison. Problem #1 solved.

2\. Auto-transfer any incoming calls not in my contact list to voicemail.
Apple?

~~~
tenebrisalietum
So if we have a "National Robocall Registry" for individuals like a national
sex offender registry, what will that accomplish, especially given that most
of these operations are not in the country they target.

If you mean getting punishment that wasn't meted out to them by a judge in
prison by other inmates, this is not really how law is supposed to work; you
are entitled to the punishment given to you by a judge and no more.

If you think penalties should be increased (maybe they should) then you should
work logically and level-headedly within the law and lobby your
representatives to increase it.

It would be better if society, especially one with so much money and
resources, would find a way help the really mentally ill before they commit
horrific acts or all types, instead of using primitive, childish, and
retrogressive ideas of evil and good to justify revenge-based emotional acts
that aren't grounded in logic. This honestly doesn't make you much better than
most criminals.

Your way is really little better/civilized than vigilante justice.

------
techntoke
I personally think email and phone spam should carry a much bigger criminal
penalty and straight out block countries that don't cooperate.

~~~
vpribish
I personally think we should send in the Marines to disconnect scam operations

~~~
Fjolsvith
Better yet: Use the Air Force to nuke them from afar.

~~~
maxerickson
Blow up their planet.

