Ask HN: How often do salary expectations not match up?

[savorypiano]

I recently had a 2 day interview, which went well until at the end we found out my salary expectations did not match up to theirs (85k in SF). It ended up to be a waste of time for both parties, as they didn't want to budge from 85k, and I didn't want to appear weak by backing down.

How often do your salary expectations not line up with the offer? Either as the prospective employee or employer.

Or are companies and employees generally within a ballpark on what they perceive as market rates.

I have to admit I thought the market rate in SF would be much higher, given what I've read in HN. It would have been relatively entry level but at a financial firm.

[nandemo]

I interviewed at a small company in Tokyo that was looking for an experienced programmer. I did a take-home programming test that took me a couple of hours (not Fizzbuzz-level), and also a couple of on-site tests. Besides being bilingual in English and Japanese, which isn't rare but relatively uncommon, I also happen to speak an additional language that they use. I was aiming at U$50~70k -- yes, the average senior programmer in Tokyo earns less than a junior programmer in the Bay Area -- they offered me $35k. For reference, cost of living in Tokyo is about as high SF as far as I know (rent and taxes are probably lower in Japan but food is more expensive).

After that I went back to always asking the salary range beforehand.

[anmol]

A few pointers on this:

* For most 100 person+ tech companies in SF/Boston/NY, there most likely will be salary bands for different roles and levels. You can get this information on glassdoor and other sites.

* The waters get tricky with seed/early-stage startups, without dedicated HR resources, since most founders are not great at HR consistency. For such interviews, its OK and helpful to ask for a broad range for the role during the screening interviews. Its usually hard for the company to give you specific #s because they haven't completed technical interviews, and have no idea how good you really are.

* For BOTH big and small companies, its OK to ask for their comp philosophy early in the process. Eg. some companies pay higher-than-market cash but low options. Some incentivise the other way. If its more that 10-15 people, they should have an answer for this. If its a very early stage company, they may not have figured this out yet.

* Across all offers, you should be comparing total comp, not just base salary. Total comp = base salary + bonuses + stock options + healthcare + other benefits. For a early-stage startup, you may be able to ask them to move some of these around, based on your personal needs. After about 10-15 people, it becomes really hard for the company to do this, because everyone has to fit into comp bands.

* Advice to me from the head of recruiting/HR at a 3000+ person leading bay-area company: Every candidate they hired came up with an argument/data on why they should be paid more. Its part of the negotiation process, and the equivalent is me going to investors with a pre-money valuation that I think we're worth for our next financing.

* No company wants to interview a candidate for 2 days and discover they can't close the candidate because he/she is amazing but has completely different salary expectations. Hiring is huge team effort, and that's a bad outcome for the company too.

[savorypiano → anmol]

Great points all around. Glassdoor is a tremendous help, but often the information is still incomplete or categories lumped. I understand companies have this resource though, so I was wondering how often a disconnect still comes up.

[justinlloyd]

I have been consistently disappointed by offered salaries for any position that does not explicitly state a salary range up front, before you begin the interview process. Some of the offers have been so low-ball that it isn't even funny, e.g. offer $85K for a game development programmer with 15+ years of experience and dozens of shipped titles but on the same day offered a student straight out of college with no experience $100k - or - offering $35K salary with basic benefits and nothing else (this was only a few years ago) for a Lead Developer position in Seattle. All I can say is that I laughed in their face and told them they weren't serious.

I just turned down an "opportunity" to talk with Kixeye because when I asked "so what would this hypothetical position you are going to create for me actually pay?" they said they don't discuss salary until they are ready to make an offer. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't have time to waste on losers like that.

[ericb]

This is why I mainly use recruiters, and I ask salary range up-front. If my read on the situation is the recruiter doesn't know (bad sign), then I prioritize the opportunity and recruiter lower. I also give more attention to jobs with the range posted, and I'm grateful when I see a range posted and it is low--they've saved me, and a lot of people a lot of time.

I'm at the high end of salaries, and I'm not taking 2 days off of work to interview for each job, only to find out it isn't in my range. I think companies that are cagey about this are either going to come in low, or are self-centered in their thinking (we are so awesome to work with, salary shouldn't matter!), both of which are bad signs for what should be a win-win relationship.

[savorypiano → ericb]

> or are self-centered in their thinking (we are so awesome to work with, salary shouldn't matter!),

I think there was definitely this element here. The feeling I get was that they expected candidates to jump at the chance to break into the industry. This is probably true. They were able to recruit people from top tier schools and I later heard they were famous even amongst funds. Yet, I don't think they distinguished that the career path is quite different as a programmer vs. a trader. As a programmer in a finance firm, my fear is that I'd be viewed as a cost center, a 2nd class citizen. Also it's a bit specialized and legacy tech work, like doing COBOL at a bank. Thus, I'd like to be paid up front and not in promises.

[georgemcbay]

Speaking as an employee I've definitely seen situations where expectations didn't line up, but I would never have gone through 2 days of interviews without a really clear idea of the range they were considering. I guess this is one of those "live and learn" things, though.

Also, it boggles my mind that a company would spend 2 full days interviewing someone for an entry level person, and then on top of that it boggles a bit more because if they spent 2 days you'd think it is because they are being super safe and trying to find a great fit, and if they did find a great fit, finally, after all that work, why they wouldn't consider going up at all.

Sounds like a real clusterfuck all around.

[savorypiano → georgemcbay]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I didn't know if it'd be a negative signal by asking about salary early on. Also, I was under the impression a hedge fund would pay better.

They may have considered going up if they didn't have another option. I was told they were out for a week, which I interpret as them making an offer to someone else first. For all I know this person was a better candidate all around, but I'd be wary of hiring someone clearly unhappy about the salary too. Overplayed my cards, live and learn.

[tptacek]

85k is a reasonable offer for an entry-level generalist developer role. Entry-level in other cities is even lower (65-75).

[savorypiano → tptacek]

I would agree except this was at a hedge fund. There is no stock, but a crappy bonus that requires 3 years vesting. Also, you had to start at 5am, which made taking public transit difficult if not impossible in some locations. So add 1.5 hour one way commutes to a 10-12 hour days, 85k with no stock really wasn't enough to justify basically selling all your time for little upside. They also used Java. The one thing that would have made it manageable was to be able to live nearby in the city (with savings) so I drew the line at 100k.

[salahxanadu → tptacek]

I would say in any other medium-sized US city entry-level would be 40-50K for a developer.

[iends]

After a series of interviews with a company for a job while in gradschool (after I already had a BS in Computer Science) and was offered $10/hr as a contract C developer (no benefits).

Starting salaries in my area for developers with a BS is around 60k-65k/yr with benefits.

[alloftheabove]

I too was disappointed from my salary offer in the Bay area but decided to take it anyway. I was making the bet that I just needed to get out here before I could really make any significant moves up career wise.

[staunch]

If you're about to go through a lot of effort, like a two day interview or flying somewhere, it's perfectly reasonable to bring this up.

"Let's assume I'm a really good match for this position and you want to make me an offer. What's the range of compensation you would be comfortable with?"

[segmondy]

Every company that has refused to discuss salary until last minute has been a complete waste of my time. I'll never have an interview without discussing the salary before hand ever!