This is not copywriting, this is landing page design (from the POV of a designer, and not marketer). I'm also wary of this data, because he does not include testing.
The way you design a landing page is very different from this one when you incorporate testing from the start.
Edit:
If you want to see a really good landing page, go and visit posthaven's page (http://posthaven.com I think). Its just perfect. You actually feel the need to pay this people money.
You must be joking. It may convert like hell, I don't know, but - oh my, is this page... ugly. All the mixed fonts and barely readable colors. They aren't even consistent in using underlines and colors for links. Total mess if you ask me. Wouldn't even consider becoming a customer looking at this LP only.
Not at all. But you don't establish that A) the landing page in the post doesn't create money, NOR B) that the landing page that "makes you feel" does.
Your example is not a good one. Posthaven's landing page only makes sense if you know who's behind the project. You should have stopped when you made the good points about landing page design from a designer's point of view rather than a marketer's and the lack of testing. I still would have disagreed with you but at least you'd have made good points. But using Posthaven as an example of a good landing page makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about (I swear I didn't mean that in the really mean way it sounded).
Posthaven's value proposition comes last - which would be fine if everything before it wasn't so boring and made sense to the casual user. The design is uninspired, derivative, and lazy looking. It may convert among the in-crowd tech scene but as an example of good landing page design it fails both aesthetically and in terms of messaging. "Learn about our pledge"? I don't want to know your pledge until I know what the hell it is that you do.
Considering the post was all about the content (and the progress from very-designed-to-it-ought-to-be-designed-less on the design front), how can it be about landing page design? The whole post is about the words. Copy is made of words. You write words. Copywriting.
It's interesting that you diss the post because it doesn't have "test data," but then you say that posthaven's landing page is better because of how you "feel."
I appreciate the depth and detail of this, thank you for posting it. However, I think it would be more effective if broken up into steps by section/facet of the landing page, rather than a giant description of "Round Two".
Of course, when it comes to editorial content, the sections/facets/headlines aren't entirely orthogonal...changing the content of one headline means you might rearrange a lot of other content. However, I think this makes it even more useful to break things down by iteration of each facet: e.g. Hero-headline v1.0, Hero-headline v2.0, etc., and show (briefly) how that impacts the other decisions you make down the page.
Of course, this is a lot more work, both in writing and in production, to put out.
Hopefully it has two ... a big one at the top and a small one at the bottom.
The funnel metaphor has always thrown me off. IRL I don't pour stuff into a funnel and expect less than 100% of what I've poured in to come out the other side.
I wrote that headline, and I'm acutely aware that a funnel has TWO holes in it. :)
Why do we use the word "funnel" then? Why write "Your funnel has a hole in it" even if you're thinking "Well, duh, it actually already has two holes"?
Here's why:
1. Funnel is the term of art. Like it or not, that's the word people use.
2. It's evocative and it's signaling -- "This is for me, I talk about my sales funnel"
3. Normal people don't think "sales funnel has two holes." Even though they use the word funnel, they really just envision a triangle. Just like when you say the word "chairman" or "cupboard," you don't think "That person is special because he owns the chair and doesn't sit on the floor like the rest of us" or "That's a piece of wood where you place your cups." The "hole in it" evokes more an image of a boat or a bucket, things dribbling through where they shouldn't.
Et voila. Your funnel has a hole in it. As a headline, it works beautifully.
I don't get the ConvertKit pricing: Preordering 3 months for $93 a month for $281. 3 times 93 is 279. The other prices are also off by one or two. Maybe I have OCD, but somehow that really confused me.
Care to elaborate? I think that's more of a judgement call than any sort of fact. I have to assume what you're talking about (which makes me wonder why this is the top comment) is the screenshots within the post. That could go either way. For a second I was engrossed by them and almost thought I was looking at the actual page but it's not so bad that it warrants being called a confused mess. The images were necessary to get the point across and things were separated enough so you knew what you were looking at. Nathan has a unique design style that both his blog and the ConvertKit landing page share elements of which is why I can see people getting a little confused but in the end, it's just a blog post, dude. And it's well designed on top of that. Not everything on the internet is perfectly suited to your tastes, lay off.
> things were separated enough so you knew what you were looking at
Until I noticed the low-res quality of the screenshot I didn't know what it was. Lossy images in 2013; great first impression.
> Nathan has a unique design style
I'll keep my opinions on that to myself, but when someone writes two books on design and hawks them on HN, people tend to be more critical of your work. I think it says something about someone's expertise when at least two of the HN posts on his products had people confused about design choices and what they were supposed to do on the page.
> And it's well designed on top of that. Not everything on the internet is perfectly suited to your tastes, lay off.
Design isn't someone's aesthetic or someone else's taste, it's the ability to communicate. This page is confusing a lot of people, so by definition, it is not well-designed.
HN also advocates raising one's prices to imply value, and I think that's why this and other posts have had people questioning the price points for the content. Additionally, I don't think "Good question. Not sure." is good copy for when I can expect a product I've paid for.
> Design isn't someone's aesthetic or someone else's taste, it's the ability to communicate. This page is confusing a lot of people, so by definition, it is not well-designed.
I don't really have a dog in this race but I am a designer and I am a writer, and hey, deconstructing sentences is fun.
Starting at the top:
> Design isn't someone's aesthetic or someone else's taste, it's the ability to communicate.
This is not an accepted definition. In fact, it's a huge bone of contention. Exhibit A: the yearly surge of near-infinite "What Is Design!?" "Design Is…" articles.
But let's pretend it is a canonical definition and then talk about what that would mean:
> it's the ability to communicate.
How do people communicate? They can only communicate if they hold things in common. Example: a language. What else? Belief systems. Culture. Background.
Are aesthetics personal? Can different people hold different aesthetics? Can a mismatch between their aesthetics, like a mismatch in language or belief, cause a communication rift?
Yes, yes it can. Ergo…
> Design isn't someone's aesthetic or someone else's taste,
… is wrong.
If you don't think it's not, you've never tried to design something modern and sleek for lawyers… or tried to persuade somebody who loves floral wallpaper to side with Adolf Loos.
"Things that look better, work better," research has shown… but did they test it on people outside the culture that created the object tested? What is "better," exactly?
This is why knowing your audience's taste (beliefs about aesthetic) is critical to communicating effectively and, ergo, why aesthetics are a huge part of design.
> This page is confusing a lot of people, so by definition, it is not well-designed.
Let's take the two assumptions here:
1. This page confuses a lot of people
2. That means it's not well-designed
Even if you accept 1 as true, that does not lead to 2 as neatly as you suppose it does. What if it confuses people who are not his audience in the first place? What if it confuses people who aren't really interested in conversion rates, but simply interested because Nathan Barry is becoming an HN darling? Casual surfers, you might call them.
If casual surfers are the only ones confused, then does that mean the page is not well-designed?
What if what you consider "awkwardness" in the design actually attracts other people who are in the author's target audience, while repelling people who are the internet equivalent of windowshoppers?
Is that not the definition of well-designed?
Finally, I think what you meant to say is "This page confuses a handful of people who are commenting on HN" which is not the same as "a lot of people."
I'm a designer and a marketer, and it's my business to know that it will confuse a lot of people. I'm not basing my feedback on my own confusion (that would surely be narrow-minded), but on my analysis of the layout and text and my ability to predict his target audience and desired result.
I think it fails on several points, many of which are design-related.
The aesthetic is fine, beautiful even. Full marks for that. But the page is confusing in that it is extremely long, it lacks focus, and it lacks organization. This is why, in as short an analysis as I could make, I deemed it "a confusing mess." In my professional opinion, most people will take one look at this page, start reading, get interested for about 12 seconds, scroll down one page, realize there are approximately 20 screens of additional content, and then click the back button thinking "I don't have time for this."
If you don't understand that, then you're wasting time talking about design and its origin and meaning. Waxing philosophical over this is not helping this page get any better. In other words, you're over-thinking it.
I am truly not sure why you're arguing with me and slinging ad hominems -- "you're wasting time talking about design and its origin and meaning" etc -- considering I never contradicted your personal opinion. The person I replied to was slinging "truths" about "What Is Design" which needed to be shut down. You, otoh, wrote what was clearly a personal opinion and didn't try to dress it up in lecture speak.
I don't really have a dog in this race
This isn't very honest considering that you are the one giving Nathan the advice in the article. And he is creating ConvertKit while part of your 30x500 launch class, Correct?
From the article: "As you’ll see, I had a huge amount of help from Amy Hoy. Throughout the process she gave great advice on copywriting that I’d like to share here."
MJR: This isn't very honest considering that you are the one giving Nathan the advice in the article. And he is creating ConvertKit while part of your 30x500 launch class, Correct?
Nathan is /not/ and has never taken 30x500. (I'm alumnus from way way back, and alumni get to attend all succeeding classes, so you have to take my word for it.)
So in that sense, Amy doesn't have a dog in the race, which she would were she partnering with Nathan on the product. She may have a tiny mouse, however. ;)
It means I can look at it and get it without having to think about it. It has nothing to do whether or not it floats someone's boat, like the rest of your post alludes to.
Clients? What design ends up being in the eyes of a client is not really worth discussing; that's a bastardization of our industry, not the definition or intention itself. No one actually knows what they want and why they should want it, but they'll tell you what to do anyway to justify the bill. On the opposite end of the spectrum, certain agencies can get away with charging hundreds of thousands of dollars for irrational, ill-thought out concepts because people just assume the cost ensures the quality.
I don't know what makes someone an HN Darling. What I have noticed is that people around here seem to take a blog post's title at its word and upvote it without doing due diligence when it comes to topics they don't understand. Seeing names repeatedly must mean that they're qualified, rather than just someone marketing themselves.
> It means I can look at it and get it without having to think about it. It has nothing to do whether or not it floats someone's boat, like the rest of your post alludes to.
Here's what you didn't say: "The PAGE is confusing and I didn't like it." Here's what you did say: "DESIGN isn't x or y, it's abc" and "Lots of people xyz." One is clearly a personal opinion; another is an attempt to rely on "truths" instead of your personal opinion (but the "truths" are specious!).
You're welcome to think whatever you like of the page.
But to dress up an opinion in "facts" and sweeping generalizations? Expect pushback from people who see that gambit for what it is.
> Clients? What design ends up being in the eyes of a client is not really worth discussing; that's a bastardization of our industry…
As for clients, I'm not sure where that comes into the discussion. You are the first to bring up clients. Color me confused.
Sorry Amy, I have a lot of respect for you but I think you let your emotions get ahead of you on this one. It seems you're more interested in defending Nathan after helping him with this post than you are in understanding what the actual argument here is; that the blog and the content therein are a mess. Normally I wouldn't care about this in an HN post, but we're talking about someone that considers themselves qualified enough to ask for money on their knowledge of design, targeting people who don't know anything on the subject. Instead of blindly drinking the kool-aid, some of us legitimately care why someone's not practicing what they're preaching and how they have attained this "Darlinghood".
> Here's what you didn't say: "The PAGE is confusing and I didn't like it." Here's what you did say: "DESIGN isn't x or y, it's abc" and "Lots of people xyz." One is clearly a personal opinion; another is an attempt to rely on "truths" instead of your personal opinion (but the "truths" are specious!).
Design is a bento box, the aesthetic is the food. When your bento box doesn't effectively contain everything in a manner that people easily can digest, something is amiss. It doesn't make it any less so because only a "handful" of people were actually vocal about it (which is not true, the top posts complain about these inconsistencies and the one speaking to the actual pricing was admitted as confusing by the author himself).
“Well-designed objects make it clear how they work just by looking at them.” - Joel Spolsky, Affordances and Metaphors
On the topic of opinions I'll also ignore that elsewhere in this thread you concluded that your own headline worked "beautifully" despite the fact that people didn't understand the metaphor and there was no proof that the intended audience wouldn't feel the same way. Furthermore, this entire post is an opinion piece (as noted in the second-most upvoted comment); there's no solid evidence that any of these layouts are any better than the other in actual conversions and some commenters even felt that the last design was the weakest. But to get to the point --
I have a hard time reading and absorbing something that forces me to take in three very large mockups and all of the copy within it. I have a hard time reading lengthy body copy that is formatted poorly (weird/varying indentations of lists and chunks of copy with no subheadings), pasting the entirety of rewritten copy in plaintext instead of letting the mockup speak for itself, and no pull-quotes or otherwise highlights of important changes or concepts to break up the monotony. It was just a huge pain in the ass to read and the mockup designs themselves were incredibly generic, which - again - wouldn't be a big deal if he wasn't ironically selling his expertise on the matter.
A better way to have designed/written this post would have been to let all three sit side-by-side. Speak to the strengths and weaknesses of each and how you came to changes you did in a short, succinct manner (concise blurbs and bulleted lists under each). And like others have said, while I might know who both of you are, that alone doesn't make me inclined to believe you without some actual datapoints to back up the decisions made.
Someone said that this wasn't copywriting so much as landing page design, and that Posthaven's page was much easier to understand. You replied that this has nothing to do with landing page design and that their thoughts on Posthaven's design is merely an opinion. When the layout has to change to accomodate the hierarchy of the copy, it absolutely deals with design. It's about content flow and what that means if you had heatmapped everything out. Only then do you understand what is actually being seen and read.
Posthaven's page works far better than ConvertKit's because it is straight-to-the-point. In 10 seconds I know what it is and what I can expect and what I can do to get started. It isn't wishy-washy marketing bullshit that goes on and on and on, forcing me to scroll all the way down to get to the actual call-to-action. When a tiny box can do a better/faster job at selling me than a wall of text, that's not an "opinion"; that's a fact.
> As for clients, I'm not sure where that comes into the discussion. You are the first to bring up clients. Color me confused.
You, two posts up:
> If you don't think it's not, you've never tried to design something modern and sleek for lawyers… or tried to persuade somebody who loves floral wallpaper to side with Adolf Loos.
Those? Clients. If you're trying to say that "boys will be boys" and they won't budge on what they want, that seems to be a misunderstanding of what a designer's purpose truly is. If you're a grunt at a low-level agency that hasn't proven themselves yet, this might be the case, but your job is to prove people wrong with data to support your decisions. If they really care more about their brand and your professional insight and experience than they do about adding things for the sake of adding things, they'll throw their aesthetic preferences out the window.
Anyways, I've spent too much time writing on something that the comments here do a good job at justifying without, so I'm leaving it at this.
I think the main problem is that Nathan incorporated the ConvertKit landing page versions INTO the article. Because the width is the same and the design of the blog and product page are somewhat similar, it's difficult to see while scanning, where the article stops and the example begins.
Nathan, you might be better off taking the landing pages out of the main article(lightboxes, new windows, something) to differentiate the article content from the subject of the article.
so this is somewhere between aweber and hubspot?
Whats the unique selling prop about this project?
I agree- I scan this thing and it confuses the hell out of me
You have got to be kidding me. Excuse my French but this is an epic ripoff. A quick Google search and a free Evernote account and in a half hour you can get a monster swipe file filled with choice copywriting tutorials and examples.
There is real gold out there for free, and if you absolutely must spend your money frivolously, there are copywriting books on the Kindle for under $5 that will give you everything you need and more.
Let's be clear here - this is a rip off for you. I understand where you're coming from as someone who has seen people try to sell info-products on things I'm an expert in and know I could get for free however it's easy to forget the kind of mindset someone who would buy this has. In fact, I'd say many of us used to be the ideal customer for this type of product but as we've grown these formerly complex ideas are now almost just common sense to us.
This just isn't for you but I can see it having tremendous value. I work as a sole developer in a marketing department where I need to be an expert in web development and marketing. I have a lot of experience with landing pages (I usually create like 3 a day at least) but I'm still interested in the product and here's why:
The valuable thing about this is that it's a product that's been thoughtfully organized and crafted by someone with a good reputation that I trust and who has proven to most of us I think that he's definitely credible on the subject. I could find the free stuff if I wanted to but having it all organized, curated, and formatted for me plus the actual product he'll be launching saves me tons of time and effort. I could spend the equivalent of $300 worth of my time to get the information myself or I can send Nathan my $300, save that time, and become an even more effective marketer faster, which then gives me time to not only make back what I spent but turn a profit too.
I find your reaction odd. Like, I'm sure Nathan would be willing to refund the money you didn't actually spend to read this article that you found to be such a ripoff that it's equivalent to a $100 apple.
What part do you feel is a rip off exactly? This tutorial or ConvertKit itself?
I believe that the point of ConverKit is to simplify and streamline the process of creating a landing page and drip email campaign. It seems like a pretty good proposition to me! I personally found the step by step process in this little walk though very valuable - especially as I'm writing a sales page myself at the moment.
You are right, but for a lot of people it doesn't matter if it's available for free somewhere. Right now, right here is his stuff from 'a' to 'z' with examples. Most people just can't find the good stuff and are in a hurry. His article puts a lot of what they're looking for in one place and he put a great deal of effort in to it.
This is just a free article on how I (with help) wrote and rewrote a landing page. I'm not selling a course on copywriting. Just sharing my experience.
A free article that is about a service that helps to improve conversion rates by making it easier to provide free articles. Which finishes with a call to action to convert the reader to the service = mind blown/Startup Inception.
I personally think seeing the iterations and tweaks was fantastic. Seeing both the process in both text and visuals was where the gold was for me.
The only thing I was thinking when I saw the final/current design was that it would sense to me for the reader to scroll (slightly) to be able read "Your funnel has a hole in it". You've created suspense/tension with the headline and a more effective resolution might be with a physical action by the user, rather than just by reading. It might help to get them commit to the rest of the page.
Thanks for putting this out there Nathan, much appreciated.
Nathan isn't selling anything related to copywriting. His article is about copywriting and it's using the landing page for his new app as an example. The prices you see are for his app (yet to be released) which doesn't have anything to do with copywriting.
Edit:
If you want to see a really good landing page, go and visit posthaven's page (http://posthaven.com I think). Its just perfect. You actually feel the need to pay this people money.