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F-Droid interview featuring Sylvia von OS and Hans-Christoph Steiner [audio] (fossandcrafts.org)
133 points by pabs3 on May 15, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 58 comments


Right now I have put LineageOS on my old tablet together with F-Droid and Termux. When used with its keyboard case this makes for a suprisingly capable device. It is small and lightweight and I can use it to get actual coding work done. It is basicly my traveling laptop now.

On F-Droid, these FOSS offerings of apps can be amazing. Trying to find a piano app for my baby. The once in Playstore pieces of ad delivery shouting garbage. The one I found on F-Droid is simple, clean and exactly what I was looking for.

If it wasn't for the Microsoft Authenticator I need for my work I would have no need for the entire Playstore.


Depending how locked down your work AD is; andOTP can scan and generate 6-digit codes which Microsoft support.


andOTP is unmaintained, I would recommend Aegis


Thank you; I had missed that. Aegis is also great; but always a pity to loose such a trouble free piece of software.


Thankfully, Aegis imports andOTP vaults with no trouble.


Why is it a problem that it's unmaintained? It's not like the TOTP standard is a moving target.


Tightly integrating into device bio-metrics whilst protecting secrets from advisories is very much a moving target.


Can't you just not use the bio-metrics option for andOTP? Honest question. I tried Aegis, but still prefer andOTP.


If you ask me, the fewer features, the less the attack surface.


Do you have any opinions on 2fas.com ?


I checked them out last week. They claim to be the internet's favorite open source 2fa app (or some similar wording). The trouble is they only just became open source and there is no evidence to support the claim. They are open source so I don't want to spread FUD but for my own personal use case I found the project a bit dubious. Like what else are they not being honest about?

I do in pirinciple like that their browser extension works in conjunction with their phone app.


Gosh darn it, you got us! It’s true, it has to be said… our claim is a complete marketing BS, a statement which our mom said when we were down and beat over a break-up in high school a few years back. Truth be told, we’re actually the highest-rated open-source 2FA app on both major app stores… but it still technically may not be true.

Frankly, our mom’s white lie just kept us together somehow and fueled the fire for development and growth. We were able to work it out with ourselves, process things on a different level, finally be at peace during a tough period of our adolescence…

Now, it’s true our therapist said last week we should probably get over it. - Finally, come clean and face the fact that you’re not actually, indeed the Internet’s favorite open-source app - he said smugly. But it’s a hard pill to swallow, y’know. Especially coming from a guy who we pay to listen to us moan about Authy and Aegis all the time… we should probably just do it the Metallica way and fire the guy. He feels like he’s part of the band, it’s too much… But, we digress!

We needed a push, a spark - AN INTERVENTION. And… you gave us just that. We solemnly swear to work it out with our mom to change that marketing claim on our website. We think it’s time. It probably is.

How about… OUR MOM’S FAVORITE OPEN SOURCE 2FA?

5 upvotes and it’s going live for a week. 20 upvotes and we’re keeping it till the end of May :slightly_smiling_face:


This was really cringey. But I guess your point is you mean you are the highest rated open source 2fa app on google and ios stores? That's great. It's impressive considering you've only been open source for a minute too. Keep up the good work. While the product is "not for me" at the moment, I wish you all the best.


Hi! Thanks for the reply and for your kind words!

We went open-source by the end of 2022, and yes - while we’re still new to the game, and some may say even late to the game - it was, is, and will be a huge deal for us because we strongly believe in the value of open and transparent code. We are also very much a community-oriented team. We know the app still lacks some features. We know there’s still room for improvement, and that’s why we value outside voices - such as yours and the voices of thousands of users on our Discord server and Github, providing us with amazing insight.

Yes, we are the highest-rated 2FA app in both mainstream app stores, but we’re not here to toot our own horn. We still see a clear path of improvement for our code, our features, and our business model to keep and develop the spirit of truly open-source software.

And if you’d like to know more - thou we hear you’re not interested in our app at the time, and we totally get that and respect it - go ahead and visit our Discord server to get in touch with the devs and maybe hint a thing or two to make you like us more in the future! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

PS. Cringe is the way.


It is not in F-Droid so I can't easily try it.


I never knew this, thank you for the tip! I will try and get it to work this evening.


If you use bitwarden/vaultwarden as password manager you can manage TOTP either on web or via browser plugin with it. In my limited testing with office365/teams a few days ago it worked.


Personally, I have a strong preference for not combining my password manager with my 2fa totp code generator though. Compromise of one meaning compromise of the other, and all that.


I've been doing this for about a year now, and haven't run into any issues with any of the various tools I need to authenticate with. It's a great solution so far, and this one feature makes the entire subscription pay for itself, imho.


PianoOli is one of my favourite apps


FDroid is fantastic, all the apps are straight to the point, most of my utilities are now from there, email client, vpn client, call, sms, IM, browser, ... If I need something I start from there. I would love to go for LineageOS or GrapheneOS, just trying to make sure I have banking apps backup in an older phone before fully committing to it.


I do banking through the browser and it works just fine. That and Google Maps if I really need a pinpoint business location or traffic. We underestimate just how much still works fine in a browser, with the added benefit of being sandboxed and sucking very little comparative power to a native app. Often, mobile versions of websites are stripped down and quite nimble.


For what its worth, my banking app has worked without a problem on GrapheneOS with the sandboxed play store. Truly loving it. (I also went in with a backup and would suggest it just in case).


My two banking apps have run fine on LineageOS with microG. There are plenty of other things that don't work, but the banking apps are fine.


Maybe give GrapheneOS a shot then. In my experience, pretty much everything works out of the box.


Any way to do tap to pay with banking apps? I'm too used to the convenience but trying to be privacy conscious where I can.


What email client are you using?


not op, but k-9 mail is a fantastic mail client on f-droid


If you are into a lot of features: Fair Mail If you want to keep it simple: K-9 Mail


It should be Sylvia Van Os, I'm aware the original website gets it wrong too but Von OS makes it sound like she changed her name because of some sort of Open Source fanaticism.


Almost, her website[1] spells it "Sylvia van Os", with a lowercase "v". In the Netherlands the spelling is mostly "van", in Belgium they use "Van" [2].

[1] https://sylviavanos.nl/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_(Dutch)#Collation_and_capi...


As a Dutch person with a van-prefix working for a Belgium company it is a constant, losing, battle.


I sympathize. Some incorrect usage just seems immutable. No matter how simple a matter it is to understand, no matter the effort needed to fix it, it just cannot be changed.

For instance, in English, the incorrect use of the apostrophe to indicate an acronym plural, DVD's instead of DVDs. This misusage is so entrenched that even as I type this my Android phone's speller is trying to make me use the incorrect form!

Another widespread problem is incorrect word usage of fewer and less to distinguish between 'discrete numbers' and 'bulk quantity'. Supermarkets are recalcitrant offenders, they perpetuate the problem at checkouts with signs such as less than 12 items.

These two examples are just lost causes. I think we just have to accept that the entropy of English is increasing with word usage becoming less precise (I wonder how long it will be before fewer precise becomes acceptable). One could say people like me who notice the problem are just being pedantic and they're probably correct. However, a wider problem emerges here. Whilst the incorrect usages above are two notorious instances, there are others and when one comes across them one temporarily loses focus on the text to fixate on the bad usage, it is distracting and disrupts the flow of one's reading.

Perhaps it's just me, but I find incorrect usage more distracting than typos or bad spelling, for instance people that run instead of people who run is more distracting than, say, the incorrect usage of its/it's, which is easy to overlook or mistype even when one understands the correct usage.

Whilst I have a smattering of other languages I don't feel sufficiently competent to comment about them, but with English it seems to me if we're unable to fix the notorious examples, then we'll have even less success in fixing others.


> For instance, in English, the incorrect use of the apostrophe to indicate an acronym plural, DVD's instead of DVDs. This misusage is so entrenched that even as I type this my Android phone's speller is trying to make me use the incorrect form!

It's not as clear-cut as you think - that's a borderline case - many people view it as falling under the "small words" or "symbol" categories of appropriate use of the apostrophe for the plural:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Letters_of_the_alph...

> Another widespread problem is incorrect word usage of fewer and less to distinguish between 'discrete numbers' and 'bulk quantity'. Supermarkets are recalcitrant offenders, they perpetuate the problem at checkouts with signs such as less than 12 items.

The countable/uncountable distinction in English is eroding and may well be dead in a generation. It's a distinction that does not exist in many other languages and it seems that many native speakers feel it adds little to clarity.

> I wonder how long it will be before fewer precise becomes acceptable

You could try paying attention to how people actually use the language instead of hyper-focusing on imagined rule breaking and you'd quickly see that's unlikely to happen

In the real world what is happening is that it has become acceptable to use "less" to describe countable quantities.

It however has not become acceptable to use "fewer" to describe uncountable quantities and there is no sign of that happening.

> people that run instead of people who run

now that's getting really pedantic - spoken English in any register has always been fairly free about choice of relative particles. I'm not sure use of "that" in this context has ever been considered bad usage outside of highly prescriptive "Good English" guides.


On the last, there are these sorts of things where people decide (or hallucinate) some particular distinction which is not reflected in usage (current or historical). Reminded of, e.g., http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/001461... .


It seems to me you ought to be railing against English grammar in general rather than criticizing me. I do not make the rules, I just use them the best way I can (and that doesn't mean I always use them correctly).

I don't claim to be an authority on English grammar, nor am I as pedantic about its use as you imagine. My background is technical, and my English grades at school were nothing special (I was never asked to write for the school's magazine). Whilst it may seem to you that I am being overly donnish about usage, I have learned the hard way that using sloppy English gets noticed and doesn't win one any favors, in fact, I've found that not being careful about one's usage can be outright disadvantageous. People who do have a good command of English grammar may not mention bad instances out of politeness, but they never let them go unnoticed. Grammar is so ingrained in their psyche that bad usage automatically waves red flags.

That said, I've been lucky enough to have encountered people who have had no compunction about drawing my attention to my grammatical errors. Many instances come to mind and several were embarrassing. Decades ago when working in Europe, I had colleagues—native German speakers—proofread my technical documents. The trouble was that besides a few errors in the subject they also drew my attention to my grammatical errors and inappropriate use of colloquialisms. It's a sobering moment when one meets non-native English speakers who speak English better than one does. That perhaps is an unusual case, but I've had similar experiences in my English-speaking environment.

If you think such matters unimportant then so be it. I would contend however that if one wants to be taken seriously then paying attention to one's grammar is important. Incidentally, I'd suggest that one never sees instances of the grammatical errors we've been talking about actually appear in books and publications from big well-known publishers, as book editors simply never let them go through to printing.

Your reference to the apostrophe to indicate a plural is nevertheless deemed grammatically incorrect by most references. That it's earned probably the most derogatory nickname of all instances of bad usage—the greengrocer's apostrophe, or apostrofly —seems to attest to how widely it is detested. Whilst some cases are tolerated to avoid confusion, there are usually ways to avoid using them. For example, Mind your p's and q's is easily resolved with Mind your Ps and Qs, the same for DVDs. It's not the unusual cases that are the issue, it's that by far most instances of bad usage are committed by people who simply don't know how to use the apostrophe because they were never taught its correct usage at school.

It's misfortune that English is lumbered with the apostrophe but its use is simple to understand and its rules can be taught in just one lesson, unfortunately, it's often taught in such a bungled and convoluted way that it's little wonder students are often left in confusion. Such bad teaching ought to be held up as an exemplar of how not to teach English. I vividly recall learning the possessive apostrophe in primary school in just one lesson, and I've never forgotten it. The teacher said 'Just ask yourself a question who owns the object and the answer will automatically tell you where to place the apostrophe—that is, it's located immediately at the end of one's answer'. That's it, end of story: 'who owns the bat?', answer 'one boy' thus the boy's bat; if two boys have ownership then it's the boys' bat. It's remarkable that so many manage to screw this rule up.

Some grammarians suggest eliminating the apostrophe altogether. That's one solution, the logic being that one understands what's meant from its context and that's often true but not always so, same applies for the fewer/less case, but again ambiguity can often creep in.

Given English is, in parts, already disastrously messy and ambiguous, I'd postulate it makes little sense to add even more confusion to the language by intentionally making it even more so. After all, the purpose of language is communication, and ideally that ought to be as unambiguous as is possible. As mentioned, the possessive apostrophe can't get much simpler and still be a rule, if anything it can even be improved, in doubtful instances where 'possession' could apply to either a single or multiple owners then ambiguity could be stated specifically by deliberately omitting the apostrophe altogether.

"now that's getting really pedantic… …I'm not sure use of "that" in this context has ever been considered bad usage outside of highly prescriptive "Good English" guides."

Your comment about making a distinction between that and who as being pedantic is informative because their meanings have always been well defined and that still hasn't changed. If many are now beginning to perceive the distinction as being unimportant then this is a recent phenomenon, and I'd reason is likely generational. Any reasonably educated person of several generations ago would consider a misusage of these words as crass and unacceptable on grounds that a language should always be able to distinguish between humans (as living animate beings) and those of inanimate objects if for no other reason other than out of consideration for the dignity of human beings/living things.

The most recent and authoritative grammar references make this clear distinction and it's still the accepted practice. When referring to both people (in its collective sense) and to individuals then who is always used. It is however acceptable to refer to a nondescript group using that. Confusion often seems to arise when making reference to, say, a company where no clear distinction is made between the inanimate entity and those humans who are employed by the organization. For example, 'the policy of Microsoft [corp] is that…' is typically confused or confabulated with, say, those at Microsoft who determine policy'.

Incidentally, I use The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language as my grammar reference, I purchased my copy of this 1800-plus page tome not long after it was published about two decades ago. It's the most authoritative reference of English grammar ever written, it's also still the most current one: https://www.cambridge.org/features/linguistics/cgel/reviews...., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cambridge_Grammar_of_the_E...

The question is how far can a language decline or fragment to accommodate the lowest common denominator before becoming ineffective and falling into disuse or metamorphosing into some other altogether different language. I cannot answer that, but little doubt exists change happening and exceedingly fast at that. I'm in full agreement with you when you said "The countable/uncountable distinction in English is eroding and may well be dead in a generation.", it's only but one instance of many such changes. Whilst change has always been a characteristic aspect of English—more so than many other languages—and that sloppy usage has always been been a contributory factor, that change picked up with great apace some 50 years ago. That's when the rot set in big-time—when educators thought it a smart idea to simplify the learning of English by essentially eliminating the teaching of grammar altogether. As we've now seen the results have been nothing short of disastrous.

If we also consider the multitude of other factors† at work on English then we've a recipe for rapid changes to occur within the language. For instance, it's unfortunate that English doesn't make use of diacriticals, then there's the propensity of English to steal words and phrases from other languages at the drop of a hat and then integrate them without due attention to context and meaning and or without attention to pronunciation, and finally there's diversification brought about through its adoption by different ethnic groups, etc. My personal views is that English is changing and diversifying so rapidly that in several hundred years it'll not only be unrecognizable to today's users but also it'll have fallen from prominence and become a backwater language of little significance.

__

† Factors such as those mentioned make English such a dog of a language, especially so for those who must learn it as a second language. Like it or not, English has never had the 'discipline' of say French with Cardinal Richelieu's four-hundred-year-old watchdog the Académie Française hanging over the language, nor has it had the stability of German where a German speaker is still able to read thousand-year-old German texts without much difficulty. And without diacriticals, English ends up having dozens of common words that are confusing and or are difficult to spell or pronounce such as 'through' and 'thorough' and the proper noun 'Warwick'.

Then there are those words imported into English—imported not through any specific need as perfectly adequate ones already exists in English—but solely because they are fashionable. 'Tsunami' is a quintessential example of such a fashionable import, it's not only displaced perfectly adequate English words but despite its translators having provided a good translation into the Latin alphabet, English users choose to ignore the translation and make no attempt to pronounce the word correctly. Instead of pronouncing the hissing snake-like sound of 'tsu' what usually emerges is a bastardized slurred-out 'sooo'-like sound with little or no deference to culture from which it came. It's little wonder that much of the world cannot but help notice the palpable and very distasteful arrogance of native English speakers.


Good point, I can no longer fix it unfortunately. In Belgium you can also have both van and Van so it's not only Van.


Both in dutch (van) or french (de, d') in small caps in a name, indicate nobility.


Wikipedia says that's not true:

> The German "von" is a linguistic cognate of the Dutch "van", however, unlike the German "von", the Dutch "van" is not indicative of the person's nobility or royalty. Van has a history of being used by commoners and nobility alike to simply signify ancestral relation to a particular place, (e.g. Willem van Oranje "William of [the] Orange [family]"; Jan van Ghent "John [who hails] from Ghent").


Camper and caravan are fine too.


I have to admit I'm a little tickled at the nominative determinism here.


The case was correct, but I misspelled "van" as "von"... how embarassing! Fixed on the website.


Fdroid is amazing.

If you use it and your download speeds are crazy slow, double check the mirrors. Today I was shaving an issue where downloading was extremely slow, I ended up picking another mirror and my speed went from 2kb/s to instant downloads.


Slightly related shoutout, https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium is a fairly new app on the block for installing apks directly from source, wherever that is. It supports a variety of sources, including fdroid or github releases. Very promising :)


https://privsec.dev/posts/android/f-droid-security-issues/

I like how F-Droid enabled the Android FOSS scene but I avoid using to get apps everytime I can. I'll use it as search and get the apps from their source repo with Obtanium.The way the F-Droid team dismissed those arguments is very off-putting.

https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium


Is there a transcript available?


I made this one using Whisper: https://pastebin.com/XCBULY0U


You can use whisper


I love Fdroid and the way it makes FOSS software more available.

I wish it was a bit more polished though. On my stock unrooted OnePlus6t there is no option for updating all possible apps at once.

Like if there are 3 apps to update it takes at least 6 clicks to update them.


That's being worked on actually and is already available in the F-Droid Basic Alpha: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.fdroid.basic/

Do note that the new APIs from Google require apps to take "ownership" of the update process of another app so if you update from another app then F-Droid Basic Alpha loses its ability to automatically update it until you manually update is from F-Droid Basic Alpha.

As you'd guess from the name, it's still an alpha, but from my experience it works pretty well. Bug reports are helpful, of course :)


Brilliant, that's great to hear.


The Neostore app (available on F-Droid) is a slightly improved front-end to F-Droid that smooths some of those rough edges.


Droidify is my go-to F-Droid frontend and it supports one-click updating of all apps without confirmation (most of the time).


Fdroid is my go to app store. Being on calyxos I really don't have much choice but every once in a while I search apps on aurora (play store equivalent for cayxos) I see it being full of junk apps


F-Droid isn't a very good app. If you want to see proper apps I suggest you try Droidify or NeoStore.


F-Droid is great!


Tried to install on an old Android 4, absolutely nothing worked.


My bad, I tried to install a too recent version: https://f-droid.org/docs/Running_on_old_Android_versions/




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