Seems to me answering those questions will be part of a greater process to balance power and interests between manufacturers and consumers/users.
E.g., Tesla already seems to try and decide the questions in the way manufacturers would likely have them, i.e. suppressing data transmission is tampering and the problem of car reselling doesn't apply as cars cannot be resold anymore without manufacturer involvement.
I think it's up to consumers to offer a different perspective here.
> s tampering and the problem of car reselling doesn't apply as cars cannot be resold anymore without manufacturer involvement.
I suspect this will become a huge societal problem if it continues like this in a car-dependent country like the US. Yes, the middle-class people will probably still be able to purchase $30,000-40,000 cars for the foreseeable future (even adjusted for inflation), but what will happen to the people who won't be able to purchase a second-hand car that costs more than $5000-6000 (or even $1000-2000)? How will they continue to get to work in a country that values public transport so lowly?
Good reliable cars are currently cheaper than ever. Of all the problems stacked against the poor, I'm not sure that cars have become less obtainable. Adjusted for inflation, the cheapest economy cars are quite inexpensive, and generally speaking, they last much longer than they did 20-30 years ago.
That's the opposite sentiment that I've heard recently (from an American perspective). My understanding is that our used cars are more expensive than ever due to:
a) Certified pre-owned and similar programs making some used cars more appealing (and thus more valuable), removing them from the supply of unvetted, cheap used cars.
b) More folks being able to afford used cars around the world. It seems like at the lower end of the market, many American used cars are shipped to Latin America or the Caribbean (in Europe many older cars are sent to Africa), again reducing the supply of used cars.
This is my sketchy recollection of things I've heard and read, I don't have any direct sources to link you to, but I've certainly heard multiple people bemoan that say, $5-10k doesn't buy you nearly as good a car as it used to (even adjusting for inflation).
EDIT: As an aside, the issue of shipping cars to different regions could also prove interesting for owners down the road. There are already some issues there - I believe my car's navigation system is for North America, or maybe US+Canada. So if my car gets shipped to Argentina in 10 years, the Nav will be useless or will need an update. Not a huge deal. But if Tesla's Autopilot is tuned for conditions and laws in a certain region, it would presumably require reprogramming for another region. Would that be an automatic over-the-air update? Or would Tesla not want to bother with free updates to a 20-year-old car?
There's a very long tail of used cars. When you are talking CPO (certified pre-owned), you are talking 0-3 years old, with perhaps 50,000 miles or less (15k-30k probably the sweet spot). Sometimes these can be a good deal, sometimes you can get like 5-10% off the new price (which seems not worth it...to me)
The OP talking about a $5,000 car is talking about a 10-20 year old car with 100,000+ miles.
Both cars appeal to a different set of buyers. The CPO car effectively competes against new cars.
It's not uncommon at all today to see a car tick over 200,000+ miles, so buying a car for $5,000 with 100,000 miles on it can be seen as a pretty good deal. Usually people would recommend a good Japanese / Korean car (Toyota, Honda, etc.).
The market was disrupted a decade back by cash for clunkers, which took lots of cars off the road. That raised prices and forced banks to write loans for older cars.
At the same time, emissions controls changed the market in that cars are more governed by use not age. I mostly buy Hondas and know the market a bit, and they are all good for about 200,000 miles without significant maintenance.
I sold a 2003 Honda Pilot with 250k miles for $2,500 last year -- really high considering all of the stuff that will break on a car of that vintage. In the 90's, that pricepoint would be for a much younger car. A place like CarMax will sell a 2010 Pilot with low mileage for $15k, which works because the TCO works out -- you won't have lots of maintenance.
>a) Certified pre-owned and similar programs making some used cars more appealing (and thus more valuable), removing them from the supply of unvetted, cheap used cars.
That seemed to be true for a while, but I've seen prices relax quite a bit lately. It's possible this was just local, and I'm not seeing a broader trend.
It's also the case that perfectly good brand new cars can be had for $13-$14k, (Nissan Versa, Ford Fiesta) which I appreciate are not attainable for many people.
You would think so, but afaik there's almost no older smart-phones around (think 4-5 years-old) because they're expensive to repair, that is if you can repair them at all.
That's why you don't see less-wealthy people commuting to their jobs in an early 2000s Mercedes S-Klass or in a VW Phaeton (even though they'd be able to purchase such vehicles at today's prices), but instead they use an older Honda or a Toyota or a slightly newer Nissan.
Smartphones aren't cars. Cars are much bigger, therefore easier to make [somewhat] modular. Furthermore, the recent hype with smartphones was smaller, thinner, and more glue.
To judge by what I've seen lately cars have started becoming full of tablets and tablet-like screens, those things will be expensive if not impossible to repair in 10-years' time.
Sourcing a CANBUS module for a 10+yo car is already a roll of the dice. Take all the modules that are required for the vehicle to operate, are matched to the VIN, can't be re-flashed, aren't available aftermarket and aren't made by the OEM anymore and anything that breaks where those sets intersect turns the vehicle into a brick. The list gets a little longer every day and won't get shorter until we get right to repair legislation with teeth.
You can drive a car without all the fancy electronic doodads. Everyone who drives a 20+yo car does it every day. You can't drive a vehicle that won't start because it doesn't see some quasi-essential (e.g. ABS) module talking on the bus.
>Take all the modules that are required for the vehicle to operate, are matched to the VIN, can't be re-flashed, aren't available aftermarket and aren't made by the OEM anymore and anything that breaks where those sets intersect turns the vehicle into a brick.
I'm starting to doubt this more and more. Dumping the ROM from a read-only chip and flashing a new one isn't rocket science.
After watching stuff like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWhId-tQXs&t=9m31s
and guys like Dave Jones and Louis Rossman, it looks like the entire repair industry is long due for disruption.
Sure, finding old or obsolete parts will still be a problem, but not impossible.
It's already expensive. The Entune head unit in my Corolla would cost me $1000 for an OEM replacement (they have a known touchscreen issue), but an aftermarket head unit with way more features may run me ~$400 including a mounting kit, and that's if I splurge on a nice one. I may give up a few features by switching, but certainly not $600 worth of features.
> E.g., Tesla already seems to try and decide the questions in the way manufacturers would likely have them, i.e. suppressing data transmission is tampering and the problem of car reselling doesn't apply as cars cannot be resold anymore without manufacturer involvement.
Not that I doubt that they believe this, or even that they've said or implied it, but is there any official statement from Tesla to the effect of prohibiting, or even trying to limit, resale without Tesla's involvement?
E.g., Tesla already seems to try and decide the questions in the way manufacturers would likely have them, i.e. suppressing data transmission is tampering and the problem of car reselling doesn't apply as cars cannot be resold anymore without manufacturer involvement.
I think it's up to consumers to offer a different perspective here.