> If you're a connected young prince w/ a cushy party/govt job in China you're ballin' and life is goooood
I’ve recently been reading a lot about the late Roman republic. Cycles move faster nowadays. These people have a lot to worry about, and rational reasons to live fast.
It's odd that China denies the existence of these things, because as of late, they usually do some logical jujitsu to validate their actions, whatever they are.
To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility.
The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial.
Saudi Arabia is in a spat over human rights with Canada right now trying to indicate that Canada is a 'human rights abuser' given the number of homeless there.
But to just 'deny deny deny' is bad in the era of the Internet.
My bet is that average Chinese people could be propagandized into the line on Tibet, but if they find that there are 1M people in camps, and their government has been denying it, well, it just kills any credibility the government may have.
An average Chinese Joe's line of thinking is: look at the West, 9/11, London, Paris. We don't have a single bombing! These religious people are aggressive and bad! If it makes the country stable and harmonious, the government HAS to be strong!
I was sitting by a young Chinese man, about 18 years old, attending a private school in Cali, he lived there with his mom, he was on his way to China to visit his father.
I asked him about 'state media control' and he said "well, you know, someone could just, you know, get a knife and start stabbing people!" which was his justification for all the control.
I asked him, while we waiting for CalTrain ... 'do you feel safe right now?' he said 'sure'.
That's because there had been religiously motivated knife attacks at the Kunming train station in 2014, and much worse in Xinjiang in 2008-2009. Not saying that's right, but people's minds change, as they would for 9/11.
Generally speaking, people become defensive about their home country. For an American, it is strange to see people want to come to the USA, benefit from the economy, educational institutions, etc... Yet, if you bring up anything about the poor state of human rights or democracy in their home country they will naturally become 1. defensive and 2. bring up some form of "whatabout" argument against the USA.
Actually there have been many attacks, but not since Xinjiang turned into a total surveillance state (ironically it ended up as a 'successful' trial run, parts of which have since rolled out nationwide).
Open question: What would you do if you have increasingly frequent terrorist attacks in major cities year after year at the same time that Wahhabism is taking root in your previously tolerant community? China doesn't have the luxury of two oceans to protect itself from religious fanatics. Xinjiang itself was Buddhist and Indo-Persian in culture well into the medieval period, until conquered and forcibly converted by Turco-Islamists who reveled in "shitting on the Buddha's head" and destroyed many monuments -- basically the Taliban and ISIS. Since then, Xinjiang's Islam has mellowed out but the insidious and fanatical influence from West Asia continues nonstop.
It's absolutely defensible and moral to stop any fundamentalist backsliding in Xinjiang or indeed anywhere in the world. Modern day Xinjiang's problem is very simple, it's one of people losing their identity in a modernizing world. You see the historically more Chinese-influenced Northern Xinjiang more peaceable and prosperous, and religion more tolerant and tolerated. The opposite can be said of Southern Xinjiang. People who fear change tend to become reactionary and turn to religion. It would have happened regardless of whether they were in China. The alternative is to never develop like some of the Central Asian -stans (e.g. bride kidnappings in Kyrgyzstan), but then who wants to live there -- not even Uyghur émigrés, who never go to those places but always head for the EU, the US, or if they have no choice, Turkey. It's sad to say but it might take materialist brainwashing ('re-education') to reverse religious brainwashing.
> there have been many attacks, but not since Xinjiang turned into a total surveillance state
It might seem that way when you ignore attacks on people by the surveillance state. From the invasion of privacy en masse, to people being disappeared, thus robbing them of even their deaths in a way not even the most heinous terrorist attacks do. It's like nuking a city and then saying you "stopped all car thefts" in it.
It's just as fundamentalist and religious, only with a party line that can shift on its own, vs. preachers who shift their interpretations of fixed scripture, for the same result.
Also, monuments destroyed in medieval times? Really?
> The start of the Cultural Revolution brought huge numbers of Red Guards to Beijing, with all expenses paid by the government, and the railway system was in turmoil. The revolution aimed to destroy the "Four Olds" (old customs, old culture, old habits, and old ideas) and establish the corresponding "Four News", and this can range from changing of names and cutting of hair, to the ransacking of homes, vandalizing cultural treasures, and desecrating temples. In a few years, countless ancient buildings, artifacts, antiques, books, and paintings were destroyed by Red Guards.
> it might take materialist brainwashing ('re-education') to reverse religious brainwashing.
They're not even getting "materialist" brainwashing, whatever that would even be, they're getting totalitarian brainwashing. Within the framework of totalitarianism, where there is no truth except the truth enforced by coercion, what you say makes sense: only a stronger lie can combat an existing lie, and anything grounded in truth or voluntary insight is lava.
It's still essentially arguing wether a turd or a puddle of puke constitutes better tasting food -- any no doubt existing differences are meaningless, they should never make you pick one or the other.
> "Factuality itself depends for its continued existence upon the existence of the nontotalitarian world."
-- Hannah Arendt
I feel the human rights issue in Tibet could be more complicated than you think...For instance, there was an article from the Guardian describes some aspects of the old traditional system in Tibet before the Chinese government took control of the region in 1950s [1],
Some extreme cruelties were practiced in Tibet before 1950, including mutilation as punishment and using human body parts for constructing religious instruments. The latter is documented in an article published in 1923 [2].
underdeveloped nation in an underdeveloped region in the 1950s has non modern social practices.
In other news, The world is round, and the sky is blue.
So, taking over a country, eradicating their culture, deciding who reincarnates, diluting the population is ok?
Are we saying ethnic Chinese are superior to tibetans
China basically has the money to bully people into submission.
Also it’s funny that the people who support North Korea, murdered most of their educated class during the great revolution, have locus standii on this issue.
Yes, that's the Chinese government propaganda line that always gets trotted out.
In fact, the writer actually states:
"Last December, Ye Xiaowen, head of China's administration for religious affairs, published a piece in the state-run China Daily newspaper that, although propaganda, rings true. " And argues some of the same points from the propaganda piece.
The author of the piece you link to formerly worked for the China Daily in Beijing, run by the Publicity Department of the Communist Party of China.
Finally, you do realize that skulls are easily obtained via death by natural causes, right? Especially before the adoption of antibiotics and vaccination?
Tibetans practice sky burial, where bodies are left out in a charnel ground and picked clean by wildlife. (Probably because digging graves is difficult and cremation would be a waste of scarce fuel.) I suspect they have a different attitude about the dead and their parts than you.
> the author of the piece you link to formerly worked for
> the China Daily in Beijing, run by the Publicity
> Department of the Communist Party of China.
Yes, I read about that too in the comment section of the Guardian article...I just feel that if there are some facts in that article, those facts are still facts even if the article was written by Satan himself, right? But of course, the organization of the facts is important and sometimes crucial too, but then it would require each individual reader to parse and incorporate those knowledge...But again wouldn't this be applicable to any book or any article, even if those written by the most famous or most authoritative figures -- if that's what people value in them?
> Finally, you do realize that skulls are easily
> obtained via death by natural causes, right?
> Especially before the adoption of antibiotics
> and vaccination?
>
> Tibetans practice sky burial, where bodies are
> left out in a charnel ground and picked clean by
> wildlife. (Probably because digging graves is
> difficult and cremation would be a waste of scarce
> fuel.) I suspect they have a different attitude
> about the dead and their parts than you.
Yes, I am aware of that and I respect their decision, if this is out of their own volition and informed mind...I am not an expert on such traditions...but as I read in the article that I previously cited as [2], it states that, on page 2,
There are trumpets made of human thigh-bones,
the bones of criminals of those who have died a
violent death being preferred for this purpose.
And as another instance, on page 17,
the bones of Father Brieux killed in 1881 [happened
in Tibet] were 1881 were taken from his grave, and
his skull was made into a drinking-cup.
There are a few other instances in that article if you want to know more...I will skip them here for the sake of brevity...
My point is the matter could be more complicated than either you or I currently think...I am not an adherent of the Chinese government propaganda...but as averse to those propaganda as I am, this does not mean that there is no information or valuable points in their propaganda...I also hate to have to dig out knowledge from propaganda, but if that helps me to get closer to any fact or truth, then I feel I have to do that, instead of simply throwing all their words away without any discretion...
BTW, the article [2] I cited was published in 1923 by Berthold Laufer , supposedly before CCP's Propaganda Division became full-fledged enough to be capable to have any influence on that...
Yes, they were using bones of dead people to construct ritual objects. You do realize that actually killing someone for that purpose would be considered an insanely stupid act causing a rebirth in hell? And how on Earth this custom can explain the Chinese invasion and the atrocities committed until this day?
You know what life is in Tibet for Tibetans? The horrors are so great that once a while they prefer to publicly kill themselves, suffering a terrible death rather than going on like this. That's the sad reality of living under the Chinese rule. There were many things wrong in ancient Tibet, such as feudal fights, the abuse of power by the central government and so on, but nothing of this justifies the invasion and the current treatment of Tibetans by the Chinese.
> using human body parts for constructing religious instruments.
That’s not far off from the current western use of relics. I’m glad the Italian government hasn’t raided the Vatican and turned it into a museum or government offices. The idea that this would be defensible because Catholics have retained medieval practices— well, I hope that’s plainly absurd to anyone reading this.
A lot of that was just the standard "we communists will liberate you from serfdom" spiel that they applied to the rest of China as well. Tibet was no paradise in 1950, but it was about the same as the rest of China before the communists took over, which wasn't a pretty place (allowing the communists to take over in the first place!).
I am not trying to justify the current situation in Tibet...I am just saying it is a complicated matter...and I agree that lots of things need to be improved there -- and I honestly do not know exactly how...
The commuism is an umbrella term, that covers many great details...I personally don't like the totalitarian way of ruling by almost all existing or past communist governments...But I do think the social collaboration and universal fraternity among all human beings are good things -- but those aspects seems to have certain totalitarianism in themselves as well...so I honestly do not know a good solution about this too...
The victors write the history to justify their actions, whether it is true or not, or even reasonable. To say that the PLA wanted to justify the L in its name is an understatement. And to muddy that further, it isn't unreasonable to think that the PLA's invasion of Tibet was simply territorial in nature and had nothing to do with the condition of its people (like the Siege of Changchun that wound up killing more people than they liberated).
But this is all par for the course for the human history of conflict!
> The victors right the history to justify
> their actions, whether it is true or not,
> or even reasonable.
Yes, I agree. That's a saddening part of our real world, that veracity is not always the most enduring thing (and it is usually not)...
> And to muddy that further, it isn't unreasonable
> to think that the PLA's invasion of Tibet was simply
> territorial in nature and had nothing to do with the
> condition of its people (like the Siege of Changchun
> that wound up killing more people than they liberated).
I feel you are making an assumption that PLA or Chinese government is a single entity with a universal will (similar to general will)...but the implementation of the actual strategies are quite often the work of individual commanders and they usually differ quite a lot -- as all individuals do...It's unfortunate and saddening to see there have been so many assholes in almost any country of the world -- and you cannot do anything about it, as they are much much more resourceful than us...
> But this is all par for the course for
> the human history of conflict
Perhaps we should let those who want conflict to fight their own fight, and leave the majority of us to live our own lives...but as I said, those people in power are much much more resourceful than most of us...The result is that we are fighting their fight, and let them live our lives...
"To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility." --Careful with that thinking, you likely live/cameup in a somewhat free/democratic society
If you talk to folks who have to live in say Russia/Putin-stan today when the government lies and everyone knows that the government knows that everyone knows they're lying it's actually a mechanism of intimidation and control.
It really boils down to "we can get away with saying or doing whatever we want-- what are YOU going to do about it?" or "Your facts don't matter, your information doesn't matter, your data doesn't matter, your truth doesn't matter-- all that matters is power and we have the power and we're in charge."
This strategy is a bit different from the casual/blatant general dishonesty of the current American president (it seems to be a bit of a personal tick rather than this kind of deliberate thinking) --- but it is absolutely a well-worn trick of nightmare authoritarian regimes.
If you're not already familiar, check out these journalists:
- julia ioffe
- masha gessen
If you want some provocative Chinese muck-raking, these sometimes be useful/interesting resources:
It’s not a secret in China, the gov created enough islamophobia so that even every single Chinese knows, most won’t give a fuss; denying it is just a cheap way to avoid talking about it in public internationally.
"Region in Northwest China relocated 461,000 poverty-ridden residents to work in other parts of the region during the first quarter of the year, in what a Chinese expert on Friday said was a bid to improve social stability and alleviate poverty."
Slighhhtly different spin on why it is being done, what's being done, etc
That's English-language content for a foreign audience
"Authorities in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China relocated 461,000 poverty-ridden residents to work in other parts of the region during the first quarter of the year, in what a Chinese expert on Friday said was a bid to improve social stability and alleviate poverty."
How kind of the government to forcibly separate families and relocate Uighurs to camps where there culture is eradicated, all in the name of poverty alleviation.
Here is another quote, with a link to a longer, more detailed article from a less-biased source (the Global Times is run by the Chinese Communist Party):
"Asked to comment on the camps, China’s Foreign Ministry said it “had not heard” of the situation."
> How kind of the government to forcibly separate families and relocate Uighurs to camps where there culture is eradicated, all in the name of poverty alleviation.
And what makes you think they're forcibly separating families? Did you literally just make that up out of thin air?
“At first, Bekali did not want the AP to publish his account for fear that his sister and mother in China would be detained and sent to re-education.
But on March 10, back in China, the police took his sister, Adila Bekali. A week later, on March 19, they took his mother, Amina Sadik. And on April 24, his father, Ebrayem.“
> The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial.
> To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility.
What evidence?
The UN says it has "credible reports." There's absolutely no information about the contents of these reports or where they came from -- only a blind assertion that they exist.
Meanwhile China has always been transparent about what is happening in Xinjiang and makes little attempt to hide it. The public ceremonies and mandatory educational courses are public -- that's kinda the point.
The only thing remarkable here is that after the Iraq War, after the endless propaganda effort against Iran (remember all the breathless reporting about Iran forcing non-Muslims to wear badges [1]?) so many people are still dumb enough to accept this sort of "reporting" without any verifiable, documentary evidence let alone actual first-hand witness accounts.
Maybe it's just late and I'm too tired but you mentioned the UN saying it had a report but your link talks about a Canadian newspaper issuing a correction in 2006, am I missing how they are related?
I traveled around Xinjiang in 2010. I was in Urumqi during the one year anniversary of the 2009 Urumqi riots and there was some tensions. Armored and armed guard units were walking the streets, and the Uyghur people we talked with were very nervous. There was segregation at a business level there. The main strip for food was Uyghur on one side, Hon on the other. At the time, it seemed unsettling, but people were getting on with their lives.
Looking back on it, I realize I was part of a joined agenda. We stayed in a Military hotel, and had a driver/escort who was special forces. We had to get permission to do the things we did. We wanted to stay with a Kazakh family, but were denied and told that we could stay with another Kazakh family. It was all pretty wild, and my friend kept in touch with a Uyghur we met, and she desperately wanted out of Xinjiang... and was essentially living in fear.
I didn't hear about camps then, but I wouldn't put it past the government.
The injection fears, at least, are known to be just standard fear mongering and rumor during the riots, see:
Fear pervaded Urumqi; A week after the riots, stories started to spread that Uighur, or Han, depending on which side you talked to, were injecting AIDS-infected blood into random strangers in crowds. It was an old urban myth, the source of an outbreak of panic in Beijing and Tianjin in 2002, but tinged with ethnic hatred. Thousands of people queued up for HIV tests at local hospitals.
As for stabbings, ya, knives are used for murder in China. The Kunming train station stabbings were absolutely horrible, but so were the multiple kindergarden stabbings that didn't involve Uighurs at all.
China has detained over three million people in an even bigger area called Tibet.
A few years ago there was video of people; men, women and children desperately trying to escape over a mountain into Nepal. Long lines of people on snow mountain peaks. Chinese military snipers picked them off one by one.
I don't know about any video, but I have met Tibetan refugees in northern India and heard their stories about escaping via the Himalayan mountains, and the need to carefully avoid Chinese guards. The stories were haunting. Traversing the Himalayas is no joke.
Use your common sense. Watch the video again. If a group of people was shot, they'd more likely to lay down immediately, not continue climbing. It's mostly likely that guy was tripped into the snow by accident.
At this point the only thing this thread actually demonstrates is the intensity and the stupidity of the latest anti-Chinese propaganda. These fact-free Two Minute Hates against the endless enemies of the West are very much not about common sense.
Back in 2008 there are actually Chinese/Tibetans debating on this matter on the Interweb. Now all sites are blocked in China, it's one sided voice only.
Is there any other news that provides more details about who is being selected to be in these camps?
Are these criminals that have broken some law and are in prison?
I know 1 million seems like a huge number, but to put things in perspective, the there are over 2 million African Americans in "camps."
I understand there is a huge difference and I'm not saying they are remotely the same. I've just been more careful in recent years because these same news organizations seem to downplay terrorist attacks in China [1].
I don't know if this is really HN fodder or not, but I noticed it immediately after the announcement that Google is now moving into China and complying with everything.
I'd recommend the Sinica podcast, they have done several shows on surveillance tech and the Chinese state, including one focusing on xinjiang and these camps.
Big tech in China is closely linked to government social engineering.
Horrific to think this is an up and coming super power. What kind of standards does this set on a international scale? What kind of example does this send to surrounding nations?
I get the US is not exactly the best leader in human rights, but the transgressions of another is a tu quoque logical fallacy.
I wonder at what point do we sanction them on human rights concerns, if that is even possible at this point. If it's not physical genocide, at the minimum it's cultural genocide.
The standard for superpowers was already set by the US and USSR - if you have nuclear weapons and the ability to project military force globally, you can more or less get away with anything. I don't know about their force projection capabilities but I'm sure their nukes can reach the US, and they can definitely reach our allies, and of course Japan and Korea would just be screwed.
They're one of the biggest markets in the world and they own much of the world's manufacturing infrastructure, and we're already in a trade war with them.
If we can stay on top of that, then yes, soft power might work, but China has a lot of leverage of its own in that regard.
This moment, the opening of the 21st century, is quite literally the worst time for the United States gov't to be really shitting the bed WRT promoting human rights.
The United States stumbles dick-first sometimes into insane or really dumb policies & ideas but they can occasionally be reasoned with & there are people who aren't nakedly corrupt & awful in the gov't aparatus.
When/if China or any of the other usual suspects become the biggest dog on the block that goes out the window
Uyghur secular culture is fine, but not its religious culture. The methods have gone significantly overboard but the motivation has always been what the state openly said, to stem the "three evil forces" of "separatism, religious extremism, and terrorism."
Your question might be rhetorical but let's answer it at face value. What kind of standards does it set based on the values in the above observation? A strongly sovereign and non-interventionist world; a materialistic if not atheistic world; and one where terrorism is strongly suppressed at home by state power. These are starkly different value priorities than how the U.S.-led Western alliance might go about running the world, but it's worth considering without the prejudice of home bias.
There's no question that the current Xinjiang situation is tragic, that the Chinese measures are draconian, and that the sooner these camps close and people can return to living their lives the better. God forbid this were to escalate to mass murder, but Beijing is far smarter than that.
However, at this point, the individual Uyghurs have a choice of assimilating by force (and learning Mandarin, which they en masse don't speak) and giving up part of their identity, or staying in camps indefinitely. Assimilation & submission is the only way this story ends well.
China will have a stable, secure and controlled Xinjiang and they are pretty serious about it. It's not like anybody in the "global community" will seriously consider for a moment sanctions or (God forbid) any military action.
Coverage of what's going on in Xinjiang is good, and so is welcoming Uygur refugees. But any encouragement or foreign support of dissidents/etc inside Xinjiang is deeply unethical because Uygurs must and will submit to Beijing and anything that delays that will hurt people and cost lives.
Oh the western people are scarred of China's horrors ? China is not doing anything that USA has not done in past. Putting people we don't like in camps (Japanese Americans), conducting experiments on people we thought were less than humans (Blacks) and so on.
Implying and providing justification for current actions based on past conduct is not only illogical, it just spits into the face of human progress.
Hunter gatherers had tribal wars and cannibalism, racism was rampant and women were powerless in the past. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be “scarred of the horrors”.
USA is probably civilised only in last 60 years or so. Otherwise the country was far too overtly racist and oppressive to minorities.
Uighur muslims are just a million or so and minuscule on larger scale. Also, it might be better to de-radicalize them now before they start bombing your cities. For example if USA had not armed Osama Bin Laden, 9/11 was avoidable. China is taking precautionary measures to avoid future wars and terrorist attacks like 9/11.
Post-slavery US behavior is far more favorable and accommodating to human rights than China today. Your comparison between the US and China is false and misguided. Individual rights are generally cherished and protected in the US; in China they are stomped upon by the Communist boot.
> Post-slavery US behavior is far more favorable and accommodating to human rights than China today.
Asking me to stop will not change facts.
Slavery was abolished in 1865, let us see what other things happened after that and what China is doing to Muslims is a page from the exactly same book.
1. 1882 - US government kicked out Chinese (and Indian) people from USA by enacting purely racist law called "Chinese Exclusion Act". Not only Chinese citizens were kicked out but citizenships were revoked retrospectively. The remenants of this law can be seen even today in green card country wise caps on India and Chinese. Cancellation of H4-EAD is just an example of how US admin has institutional racism against Indians and Chinese people.
2. 1942 - Internment of Japanese Americans. Absolutely disgraceful and yet exactly same as what China is doing to Muslims.
6. The current laws like Civil Asset Forfeiture and Marijuana prohibition targets black families and people from low income families depriving them of their own money and freedom.
I am not even coming to the topic of how USA had destabilised perfectly stable countries like Iraq, killed thousands of innocent people, maimed thousands of people and children, bombed hospitals, killed babies, raped women and children across Afghanistan and Iraq here.
how is this labeled [dupe]? They are two separate articles. I'm confused because I've seen plenty of times an issue covered from different articles where both show up in results not labeled dupe.
The story you linked above, with over 170 upvotes and less than a day old appears nowhere on the first 5 pages of HN.
It's hard to imagine HN suppressing any similar story from a similarly credible source about a million people being detained in any predominantly white or English-speaking country.
There's a lot of money for YC to make in China, but this is a million human lives. Please at least try to think about that.
(And yes, the story is certainly drawing flags from Chinese patriots and wumaodang alike)
That doesn't reflect how HN is moderated at all. Your claim about who's flagging is equally made-up. Edit: the claim in your profile is also completely untrue.
In fact you have a long history of making things up about HN moderation, posting them, and continuing to repeat the false claims when corrected. You also have a long history of using HN for political battle about China. If you keep abusing the site this way, we're eventually going to ban you. Dramatic allegations about "censorship" and "suppression" don't immunize you against having to follow the rules like other users.
Seeing good-faith comments which break no rules I'm aware of being flagged is truly disappointing.
It's your forum and if you choose rule by law rather than rule of law, I am powerless to improve the situation. In ten years time, if you remember any of this, I hope that you might have a new perspective this topic.
Users flagged the comment. No moderator touched it.
It's time you stopped posting these tedious harangues, which baselessly insinuate corruption while sneakily pretending to be fair-minded ("cannot prove any wrong-doing of course").
Nothing sneaky is involved. Like you and most people, I believe I am fair minded. There's no pretending involved, either.
It is very surprising users would have even seen a comment buried deep in an old thread within minutes, but it is possible and I'm inclined to believe you in this case (though the next most likely case is a 五毛党 vote brigade). Nothing in the comment was a violation of guidelines, nor was the previous comment at all what it was maligned as.
That said, it's now clear that the very attempt "to voice minority opinions I believe to be true" is counter to the goals of the forum. While they're ideas and issues where one voice has a relative chance of making a difference, they're also very likely to lead to flamewars. It's hard to let go of the human rights issues, especially those I've seen some of first hand, but it's not productive here.
I'd be lying if I said YC's recent moves weren't terrifying, but I'll give up on voicing it in this way.
I'm happy to see more headlines about this, because this doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves.
Here is one account from a camp:
> “Xi Jinping is great! The Communist Party is great! I deserve punishment for not understanding that only President Xi Jinping and the Communist Party can help me,” was one of the refrains that a Uyghur woman who was in a centre last fall, was forced to regularly repeat.
> The woman, whose name is not being used by The Globe and Mail for her protection, was put through regular self-criticism sessions. Part of the content was cultural. “My soul is infected with serious diseases,” she would repeat. “There is no God. I don’t believe in God. I believe in the Communist Party.”
> Other content was more explicitly political. Day after day she would say out loud that she was a traitor, a separatist and a terrorist.
> She was one of the most revered academics from the Uighur ethnic minority in far western China. She had written extensively and lectured across China and the world to explain and celebrate Uighurs’ varied traditions. Her research was funded by Chinese government ministries and praised by other scholars.
Genuine question for someone with a better understanding of psychology, or the kind of propaganda employed by authoritarian regimes, but what purpose does this serve? I can't imagine you can actually convince someone to suddenly like the CCP or Xi Jinping through something like this. Is it simply a tool to show who's in charge?
In an authoritarian situation it literally doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying. You just say it to get through the day.
It's not like a scifi movie where every little thing is monitored, the game is you just don't cause yourself (or perhaps more importantly your pals or family) trouble and try to "get yours" and live something resembling a decent/self-actualized life.
For the regime, those kind of performative statements sets a good example & makes the problem go away
They drown you with extremist views so that when you encounter softer but still pro-China views, you'll be more accepting of them because they seem more "reasonable".
Brainwashing. They do it starting with preschool. Kids get to sing songs about how great the country, the party and its leader are. It's all quite militarized. In camps like these it's surely worse, their purpose is to break these people. It's psychological torture, not re-education.
The interesting thing about whole this Chinese persecution of Muslims is the complete silence from their Islamic friends such as Pakistan and Saudi. I would expect America's friend Saudi to be very vocal critic of China's actions. But so far everyone has been silent.
No. But I think Saudi deeply cares about Islamic demography in every country including USA. Saudi invests billions of dollars in countries like India to make sure Muslims remain radical and under the control of sharia and women on street wear hijab. In my village for example an international NGO funded by Saudi pays INR 800 ($12) to women who wear hijaab.
Pakistan had national election recently, the prime minister will be in office this month and I dont think the new PM will start by attacking China who they depend on to counter India.
I hope that I see for once before I die a single report by BBC of what Muslims from Indonesia to Mali are doing with minorities, gays, even other Muslims from different sects other than Sunnis. I hope that BBC does a single report about the extremist Muslim neighborhoods in the UK and other European countries. I hope that I can express my opinions in this website without getting massively downvoted within seconds.
What are you trying to achieve with that statement? Responding to an article about Muslims being persecuted with examples of some Muslims persecuting others is utterly useless. It's like responding to an article on 9/11 with examples of atrocious things the KKK has done. You're making a pathetic attempt to justify what China is doing. Downvoting you is exactly what should happen.
while I am not even white or from the west myself, but comparing 9/11 or extremist muslims with KKK is just idiotic to say the least. I am not making any justification for China btw, it's the biggest dictatorship on Earth, what do you expect?
Actually there's been a distinct lack of very necessary China criticism for a few too many years. Don't let the denormalization of some actual reporting throw you.
at the same time, every article remotely critical of China in HN always has a squadron of comments employing whataboutism and deflection and unsubstantiated accusations of anti-China propaganda.
This story may both be true and be propaganda. What better kind of propaganda than stuff that is actually true?
What's important with propaganda is not how true it is, but the timing and the context and the reason why it is being deployed.
By pointing out that this is part of a campaign, I'm not saying I disagree with the motive for the campaign or the truth claims in the stories (or that I oppose them).
In my view, the mechanisms of propaganda are more interesting than the tit for tat between two morally mediocre powers.
It's not whataboutism to point out that the vast majority of anti-Chinese propaganda being posted to HN is just that. There are real problems in Xinjang. Noted Xinjang politicians and academics do disappear. China has both secret courts and preventive detention. There is real evidence of this eg [1] [2].
But we don't get articles about the actual issues. We get this sort of breathless, fact-free nonsense about millions of people disappearing into "extrajudicial camps." It has no relation to reality and exists only to push a narrative and get clicks.
I think he’s pointing out the hypocrisy of there being nearly nothing in the news cycle about this and certainly no national outrage or protests, implying much of the protests against ICE were simple political point scoring and not genuine concern for strangers’ wellbeing.
I was mostly pointing out the hypocrisy of so many Americans ignoring Chinas awful human rights record because there is money to be made. The same applies to Saudi Arabia, which is much worse than China yet also makes Americans rich so we look the other way.
What, in the US? What would be the point, especially with Trump in the White House, uninterested in human rights issues.
Americans protest the detentions and family separations here because we're at some level responsible for it, our taxes are being used to pay for it, and in our system there's potential for a good resolution to come about due to protest. Also, tanks probably won't be sent to crush a protest.
Trump is in a major trade war with China right now, and just scored some major points for US oil. Even if you are cynical and think Trump doesn’t care about human rights, there’s certainly never been a time in recent history where a president could use major human rights protests to effect change in China. Ie Trump could certainly use the leverage against China right now. So if you do care, there’s never been a better time to protest.
Characteristically, when videos of muslims cutting christian and "wrong type" of muslim heads are openly circulating internet, UN shows no slightest concern.
Don't even think about it.
There's definitely an uptick of Chinese gov't influence operations on Reddit, HN might be a bit under the radar but just in case...
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2018/62187...
If you're a connected young prince w/ a cushy party/govt job in China you're ballin' and life is goooood.
But if you're Joe-Shmoe you're kinda screwed, like with a most nightmare regimes it's the worker bees who get hit worst.