Most of us are employed producing goods and services for which people are not born with an innate desire.
Approximately the only people who can bash advertising without hypocrisy are subsistence farmers. The rest of us are paid to satisfy artificially inseminated needs. Perhaps our specific industries and employers use classier, higher-quality, and more subtle forms of advertisement, but in a truly ad-free world, we'd not spend money on anything but staying fed, warm, and reproductive.
The guys who spent money building on, say, the Colossus of Rhodos, on the development of scientific instruments and the pursuit of science itself, and generally, in every aspect of science and culture would beg to differ.
Besides, nobody is bashing advertising because it's advertising things. We're bashing that advertising activity that's based on lies and deceit -- you know, like the flashing neon signs that invite you to buy this pill that's gonna make you beautiful like the other girls and it's basically half a gram of sugar mixed with ten grams of Matcha tea, and the sort of dubious activity that it mixes up in this scheme, like user tracking and outright malware (remember Forbes' blunder?). And I'm not even going to get into the part where it advertises stuff like cigarettes (and I'm a smoker, I'd just rather not see this vice being frickin' advertised!). I have every intention to keep bashing this shitty industry until it grows a spine.
Apparently history counts for nothing. If you are trying to claim the entirety of the human experience as some kind of living advertisement you have one hell of a claim to prove. Entire cultures lived and died before the first word was ever even writen. They sang, they made language, they created art, all without even thinking about the concept of money. Advertisement, as is being discussed, is relatively new, and to try to muddle the discussion by positioning it as the cornerstone of civilization is to miss entirely the point.
If you believe the human experience before modern technology and economics was good enough, why aren't you living it? What in the world are you doing on a computer?
Yes, many people lived and died in an era when there was no time for economic activity beyond extracting dinner from local fauna or the land. The process by which they first learned about and acquired farm implements, giving them the time to do other things, is called advertising.
I'm curious what led you to such conclusions. That depiction does not match how I view the world at all.
Just because an item doesn't prevent one from starving or freezing to death does not mean it is an "artificially inseminated need".
Sure, GDP might drop 10% in the short-term if all advertising was banished. Who knows. What I do know is that people won't stop wanting things that make their life better, and in general will continue to buy such things.
Advertising is not what keeps us from a peasant lifestyle.
I don't buy for a second that the end of advertising would harm GDP. It would take generations of cultural turnover to move people away from consumerism. If people were not being psychologically manipulated into buying certain products they don't need or want, they will just buy what they want instead.
Sure it does. Advertising is the flow of information about what products and services are available, how much they cost, and where to purchase them. Some are crass, some are subtle, some are sprayed, some are targeted, and the very best (personal recommendations and such) aren't even paid for. They are all advertisements.
The way your post comes across, given the context: "It's impossible to learn about things in the world that one might pay money for without advertising"
Is this what you actually mean? Because that's an absurd statement. Unless you dilute the meaning of the word "advertising" such that it covers literally every human action. But then we aren't having a useful conversation anymore.
You're aware that a small number of years ago, in the scope of human civilization, most objects were not branded, billboards didn't exist, etc?
I wanted a Bluetooth speaker. I sought out non-paid reviews by third parties (some of the being fellow consumers who had already bought the device), and then decided which speaker I thought would work best for me. I didn't make use of advertising in the process.
How did you know you wanted a Bluetooth speaker, or that such a thing exists?
In your specific case it's possible that you knew what speakers are, and you knew what Bluetooth is, and you extrapolated from there that the combination might exist and you went looking for one (carefully avoiding paid reviews in the process).
But it's also possible that you saw a post on techcrunch or HN years ago when Bluetooth speakers were first being developed that seeded the concept in your mind. Something changed between then and now such that you recently wanted to buy one, and that kicked off your ad-free research and purchasing process. Are you positive that no ads were involved in that original, long-past inception of the concept "Bluetooth speaker" in your mind? Or maybe one of those fellow consumers whose reviews you recently read originally bought their speaker because of an ad they saw.
If I make a better mousetrap, but then tell no one and never leave my farm, will the world beat a path to my door?
I think you might argue that there is a distinction between word of mouth flow of information and advertising, but the devil is in the details. Is publishing a peer-reviewed paper advertising? Is updating a blog about your project advertising? Is posting a limited number of access codes on a forum you don't own to a service you are launching advertising? Is cold calling advertising? Is sending unsolicited emails advertising?
What makes advertising advertising, and how is it different from telling people about this thing you made that they don't know about but might add value to their lives? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with fuzzy concepts like social capital.
3) I was at the store a while back, browsing around (of my own volition), and learned about them
I could go on, but you get the idea. There are very many ways to learn about new things other than overt advertising. If we are being lenient, it's actually not too different from asking "how does culture spread and evolve?" Humans have been doing this stuff for thousands of years.
To address the second half of your post, I do agree 100% that it's impossible and unreasonable to draw a really hard line against all advertising. But I think we can certainly do way, way better than we do now.
Having your product out in the world with a brand name on it is a form of advertising, and it works really well because people don't recognize it as such.
Some people do recognize it, which is why they'll do stuff like de-badge their cars, to avoid being an agent of the "my friend has one" or "I saw one" form of advertising. My grandparents found this terrifyingly insidious and tried to be cognizant of and reject it whenever possible. Now we all wear logos without a second thought.
>3) I was at the store a while back, browsing around (of my own volition), and learned about them
Manufacturers jockey with retailers for prominent shelf space (or shelf space at all) as part of their advertising efforts.
Similarly, a storefront with signage in a heavily (foot) trafficked area is one of the most expensive (per impression) ad placements that money can buy.
> Having your product out in the world with a brand name on it is a form of advertising
I didn't say the product had a branded logo on it. Many products do these days, but not all.
It's not hard to imagine a world where logos aren't everywhere. Even today, I don't buy clothing with prominent logos.
You are completely missing my broader point here. Advertising is a small, superficial part of culture. People have participated in culture for thousands of years, acquiring items and ways of doing things. They don't need advertising to do this.
> How did you know you wanted a Bluetooth speaker, or that such a thing exists?
Because I want a speaker and my phone supports Bluetooth.
> you knew what speakers are, and you knew what Bluetooth is
Umm, yeah. And if I didn't know what Bluetooth was I'd still know I wanted a speaker. The fact that my phone supports it - even if I didn't know what it was - would lead me to wanting a speaker that supported it.
> If I make a better mousetrap, but then tell no one and never leave my farm, will the world beat a path to my door?
The ads proclaiming best mousetrap ever, never are. So from my PoV all I lose by you not advertising is another rip-off.
Try renting the mousetraps with a "Purchase if we catch X mice per month" agreement. Prove their efficacy instead of spewing empty words.
> but the devil is in the details. Is [...] advertising?
An argument that there are shades of gray isn't a valid answer for the complaint that people enthusiastically push the boundaries of black-hat.
> What makes advertising advertising, [...]? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with fuzzy concepts like social capital.
The fact that someone pays to force it on you. Also, that the people writing the advertising would say anything for the sale, rather than being honest.
Original content by Netflix and Amazon is produced by the same companies, people, and tools as the rest of Hollywood's output, just for a different distribution system.
If you feel (as I do) that they haven't sufficiently adapted to the current era, why do you think any other open protocol would be able to change more easily?
The prevailing winds in the regulatory climate do not seem to point towards a skyscraper construction boom anytime soon.
Over in technology, we're rapidly marching towards cheap household-scale solar panels and batteries, commodity autonomous driving technology, and cheap electric cars. Elon Musk's satellite constellation will deliver decent internet service regardless of the population density/economics needed to support fibre buildout. Telepresence is already good and keeps getting better.
The society coming down the line is one made of energy-independent prefab houses with no particular constraints on location (so they'll go to where land is cheapest), drastically improved freeway throughput (autonomous cars can pack much more densely), and car interiors not much different from small apartments (you'll be able to eat, sleep, and work while the computer drives).
So, as it gets easier to live farther from work, the economic incentives for everyone to cluster into a few square miles will diminish greatly.
How would you compare it to code review at a medium to large tech company? At work there's certainly a lot of back and forth but it never feels hostile, and I usually learn something.
I'd say there's more review on m.o projects than at any medium-large company I've worked at. It's not hostile at all, and I've learned something the times I've cared enough to shepherd a patch through that process.
I don't think it's unfriendly to newbies at all, other than the size of the codebase being so large that it takes considerable time/effort to understand well enough to make a patch you're willing to work through getting integrated.
This started well before "social media" was a thing. Newspapers weren't done in by Twitter, but by their own online editions, and by Google unseating them as the best place to advertise.
All it takes is a coup of a nuclear-armed nation, and the barrier to entry on that project keeps dropping as states with a recent history of fanatic-deposes-weaker-fanatic coups join the club.
Approximately the only people who can bash advertising without hypocrisy are subsistence farmers. The rest of us are paid to satisfy artificially inseminated needs. Perhaps our specific industries and employers use classier, higher-quality, and more subtle forms of advertisement, but in a truly ad-free world, we'd not spend money on anything but staying fed, warm, and reproductive.