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I feel badly for this guy but drinking on a public street is a no-no in most places in North America. There is something to be said for understanding the local rules, regardless of how stupid they may be.

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tikhonj 785 days ago | link

The rule in question is not only silly but also relatively minor: I think it involves something like a $25 fine.

He wasn't doing anything horrible or dangerous, but was treated like a base criminal. And that's the real issue--a complete lack of decency and civility by people given additional power and trust by the state.

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viame 785 days ago | link

I have to start by saying that the sandwich part is hilarious.

On a serious note, everything that you have said is what I wanted to say so I won't repeat. But how do you deal with this issue? Why does no one seem to be taking action?

This post will get some comments and by tomorrow it will be forgotten. It is your(everyone who agrees with this issue) country, why not do something about it before it gets worse?

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bilbo0s 785 days ago | link

Yeah.

I understand it is a bad situation and everything, but as you said, that's just the way it works here.

In fact, he got off pretty light talking to the cops like that in NYC. You should thank your lucky stars that you were not...say...black American...you would have had a WHOLE lot harder time.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, unless you left something out, it sounds like you were treated a good deal better than most NYC residents would have been treated under similar conditions.

Now that IS a bad thing...I realize...but...you know...

I'm just sayin'...it's not like they will single out foreigners.

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tptacek 785 days ago | link

Try being North African and mouth off to the police in the suburbs of Paris.

It is --- I assume this goes without saying, but this is HN and we're talking about the police so here goes --- much easier for the police in France to invasively search the people they detain, as well.

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illumin8 785 days ago | link

Yeah, unfortunately in the US, drinking in public is against the law, and if you are with people who are breaking the law, you are also considered a criminal. Although it is pretty fucked up, you should be aware of the local laws, especially if you are partying after midnight in public in any city.

I wish things were different, to be honest, but if you put yourself in the law enforcement officer's point of view, what's the difference between a few tourists enjoying a bottle of wine on the street, and a few drunken hooligans causing trouble and starting fights. I'm not saying you were doing anything like that, but a cop really can't discriminate.

I do believe the way they treated you was unacceptable, however, and you should file a complaint against the arresting officers. I believe in NYC you can dial 311 to do this. Police officers should be held to a higher standard and they are trained that the response to any situation should be justified - in other words: violent, belligerent drunk gets slammed into a wall and handcuffed. Happy, carefree drunk tourists should get calmly spoken with and given a warning.

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mquander 785 days ago | link

I wish things were different, to be honest, but if you put yourself in the law enforcement officer's point of view, what's the difference between a few tourists enjoying a bottle of wine on the street, and a few drunken hooligans causing trouble and starting fights. I'm not saying you were doing anything like that, but a cop really can't discriminate.

Don't make needless excuses. Firstly, there are many ways the law discriminates in your example; given your description, a cop could probably cite the second group for disorderly conduct or assault.

In addition, cops are not machines who accept a sequence of events and output "legal" or "illegal." Nor should they be, or could they be, given the complexity of law. An individual officer is indeed expected to exercise discretion and to enforce the law in ways that help society. It's impossible to take that discretion away from them, since we don't always have a way to judge the objective truth of situations without trusting some of the people involved, so we should remember that they hold that responsibility and be wary of attempts to discharge it.

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tptacek 785 days ago | link

I guess, to the extent you're right that police should be held to a standard of "unfailingly professional while issuing open container tickets to drunk people who are taunting them". We also obviously don't have the full story. His friends apparently were arrested. Arrest is a big deal; it takes cops off their beat or patrol for an hour or two. What did his friends do to make the situation worse?

Open container enforcement is a quality-of-life issue. Tourists and bros won't appreciate it, but you should be aware that in many places, the residents not only do appreciate it, but get angry if it doesn't happen. I'd be pissed if people were wandering up and down my street drinking in the middle of the night.

Finally: with regards to "making excuses", you should get over it. Getting mad at the police for being assholes isn't going to get you anywhere. You can be "message-board-correct" about this all you want, but there is zero power to be had in standing up for your right not to be verbally abused by the police. You are the least of anyone in the NYPD's problems. There is, on the other hand, tremendous power to be had in being able to come back at abusive behavior with calmness, politeness, and appropriate compliance (don't consent to searches).

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GiraffeNecktie 785 days ago | link

Let's not confuse our terms. If you break the criminal law you are a criminal. If you violate some other statute (e.g. failing to stop at a stop sign, drinking in public, being undressed in a public place) it's not the same thing. You are not a criminal and shouldn't be treated as such. Yes you can be charged and required to appear in court, but that doesn't, in any way, make you a criminal.

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mikeash 785 days ago | link

According to the story, he was not drinking in public, although his friends were.

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mike-cardwell 785 days ago | link

This doesn't sound like the behavior of a police force to me. It sounds more like the behavior of a gang.

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tptacek 785 days ago | link

Have you ever actually had a run-in with members of a gang? The idea that you'd equate incivility to gang behavior suggests that you probably haven't.

Incivility and even hostility is an unfortunate fact of life when dealing with urban police. You might just as productively complain about the weather. Or, if you're of a mind to see the other sides of issues, read a couple police blogs to get a feel for the shit city cops have to deal with.

They are, to be sure, authoritarians. The people that tend to post on HN, myself included, are not wired to be particularly tolerant of authoritarian behaviors. But they are not intrinsically bad people. They're doing an important and very difficult job, often under shockingly bad circumstances.

At the very least, try to remind yourself that when dealing with the police, you can get 1000x more power and control over the situation by being polite and (at least superficially) compliant than you can by being firm and unyielding. It is rare for people to be polite during police confrontations. Belligerent? All the time. Terrified? Sure. Calm and polite? Almost never. There's an exploitable vulnerability in police ability to handle calm, polite behavior.

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TightVNC

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Yeah, that is probably never going to happen or if it does it's so far out that it's not worth speculating on.

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3pt14159 788 days ago | link

Think about the amount of data the 70 people at Dropbox move. A couple hundred years ago that would have taken every single literate person.

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jey 788 days ago | link

How do you justify that very strong assertion? What's your definition of "far out"?

The past 100 years are a great example of how a lot of change can happen in a short amount of time.

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Qworg 788 days ago | link

There already are unmanned oil platforms. As communications and remote systems get better, I expect to see even more automation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normally_unmanned_installation http://www.shell.com/home/content/innovation/meeting_demand/...

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mattadams 788 days ago | link

I'm aware that there are unmanned stations -- not only oil platforms but regular leases. I live in oil & natural gas country (Northern Alberta). What you don't see are the thousands and thousands of guys running around keeping it all ticking.

There are some things that you can automate -- but a lot of things in the oil & gas industry cannot be automated. Specifically, the leg work required to get things started & keep them maintained. Automating those sorts of things requires a pretty advanced AI and I don't see that coming around the corner anytime soon.

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rdl 787 days ago | link

You can make things simpler for dumber AIs (or dumber workers) by designing field-replaceable-units with that in mind. It is going to cost more/be less efficient, so as long as a human costs $300k/yr or less, no need, but when that isn't the case, you see "forklift upgrades", etc.

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Quickbooks, absolutely. If you're doing anything serious you need to use an industry standard (not necessarily Quickbooks) for this kind of application. Your accountant will hate you for using anything else.

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I think my biggest gripe is that these things are only possible by using one of the many libraries or rolling your own solution. The rather disorganized state of the node.js libraries is far too confusing for most of us who don't do Node 24x7.

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tlrobinson 816 days ago | link

Agreed. The solution needs to be part of the language, or at least node itself, not a 3rd party library (or 10)

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mattadams 818 days ago | link | parent | on: Html5please

How about "please don't use stuff that makes rendering horrifically slow on relatively modern hardware?"

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karl_nerd 818 days ago | link

It's actually there on for example box-shadow, one of the worse offenders

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Please see my reply below, thanks!

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I know that Jason will reply to this later today but I figured I would do it now.

The company is based in Ontario. Jason lives in Oakville so anything in the GTA would be good.

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Data tables (jQuery addon) does a pretty good job with HTML tables.

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tptacek 852 days ago | link

If you can push all your data to the front-end all at once, yes. DataTables makes this pretty straightforward.

Otherwise, his point stands. DataTables has hooks for this stuff, of course, but that's just a way of saying "DataTables doesn't itself solve this problem".

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arethuza 851 days ago | link

I rather like the fact that DataTables doesn't try and solve the whole problem (front end and server back end) - otherwise you end up with things like ASP.Net server controls and DataGrids which are really just an attempt to port desktop development approaches to the web - creating an unpleasantly leaky abstraction along the way.

I find that using DataTables as front end and hooking it up to a backend is pretty straightforward and results in a nice separation of concerns - let the server/database worry about paging, sorting, searching and filtering. Of course, if you have a relatively small amount of rows then just let DataTables do all the work - but at least you have the choice.

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irahul 851 days ago | link

> If you can push all your data to the front-end all at once, yes. DataTables makes this pretty straightforward.

Paginagtion(ajax or page reload takes care of it). I use slickgrid https://github.com/mleibman/SlickGrid; pagination is straight forward, filtering takes some work. But do the hook once, and wrap the table in jquery-ui css framework's ui-widget, and you have a good looking, working table.

> but that's just a way of saying "DataTables doesn't itself solve this problem".

slickgrid is sortable, but filtering needs work. In fact, "slickgrid doesn't do everything" is part of its philosophy.

I have come to opposite conclusion that of author's. Having an excel sheet replacement in your repertoire is important, especially when you are replacing enterprisy stuff.

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dreamdu5t 852 days ago | link

Data tables was too slow for us over using 500+ rows. We went with SlickGrid... which is faster but just all over the place.

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rufo 852 days ago | link

I found DataTables was much, much faster when I passed a JSON data hash - I think the DOM manipulation is what normally kills it. We've got some tables of several thousand rows in a small internal app and performance is fine, even in older IEs. (I think I tested up to several tens of thousands before IE started to be unreasonably slow - YMMV, of course.)

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Is this just a subvertisement for Mongo?

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