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I think the most depressing thing is how unsurprising this is.

This is why free trials require credit cards upfront, as they're more difficult to fake, not because you're about to be stealth billed. It's thanks to people like this.


it's practically trivial to bypass this if you really want to. CapitalOne in the US allows you to have virtual cards that can be verified but you can delete and block at any time for free if you have a credit card from them. I'm sure the practice discourages casuals from gaming trials, but it just feels like it's making life miserable for paying customers but doing almost nothing to stop bad actors

If you also ban virtual and pre-paid cards it cuts this to almost zero.

There is a difference, this rocket company is not really going to generate a new virtual card every time? You think their business bank account even supports that?


Considering it's a startup, high likelihood they are using something like Brex, which does support virtual card numbers.

Those types of card numbers are detectable though.

They are detectable only if the issuer has a dedicated BIN for virtual cards. If they issue in the same BIN as your regular card, there's no way to detect without issuer cooperation, which would defeat the point.

How? Based on issuer identification number?

As one example, Oracle Cloud's Free Tier sign-up prevents any type of virtual card.

Oracle could productize a Trial Filter.. powered by Oracle Lawyers™.

I'm pretty sure it can be done via the IIN. Services like https://binlist.net/ provide a convenient solution to identify if it's a prepaid card.

> CapitalOne in the US allows you to have virtual cards

Anything recurring will not take a virtual card or gift card in the US.

I got burned on this a couple times until I figured it out.


privacy.com

I'm sure they're doing this, they'd be mad not to - firecracker has cgroup support.

Outside of the big clouds just buying a 1 Year lease (say) on a dedicated server is so cheap that you'd not be saving much vs spot instances and with spot instances you need code to manage this and you're introducing risk of slowdowns. Probably not worth the trade off.

To illustrate a 128GB ram 20 core server with a 10Gbps NIC and some small SSD storage is probably going to cost you <$2000 USD for a years rental.


They've got usage that plummets 80% 2 days a week and the other 5 have a broad predictable time based pattern where usage drops ~66% judging by graph.

If that works out to same prices as keeping compute at literally your peak requirement level round the clock then something is very wrong somewhere. Maybe that issue is not in-house at blacksmith - perhaps spot pricing is a joke...but something there doesn't check out.

Loads of companies do scaling with much less predictable patterns.

>risk of slowdowns

Yeah you do probably want the scaling to be super conservative...but -80% fluctuation is a comically large gap to not actively scale

>To illustrate

Better view I'd say is: That chart looks like ~4.5 peak. So you're paying for 730 hours of peak capacity and using all of it about 90 hrs.

Given that they wrote a blog about this topic they probably have a good reason for doing it this way. Just doesn't really make sense to me based on given info


I think you're reading a graph for a single tenant not overall infrastructure.

m7i.4xlarge on AWS spot price right now is $0.39/hour whereas renting the server is about half that per hour.


No, I'm not. I'm looking at the 5 day average across fleet graph right at the bottom. That shows very roughly 2/3 drop from peak to lowest, while the 80% is from the text as fleet wide.

>whereas renting the server is about half that per hour.

If you're at capacity only 90 out of 730 a month then paying 2x for spot to cover those peaks is a slam dunk


What's wrong with minio out of curiosity? Ceph an option?

This is at least partially subjective.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32148007

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35299665

Ceph would be a theoretical option, but a) we don't have a lot of experience with it and b) it's relatively complex to operate. We'd really love to add a lighter option to our stack that's under the stewardship of a foundation.


Try expanding a cluster, or changing erasure coding configuration, or using anything that needs random access within a file (parquet), or any day 2 operation.

Even some basic s3 storage patterns weren’t considered when the core storage scheme was designed. Lacks an index and depends on filesystem to organize objects and then crumbles to lock contention when too many versions are stored or under walkdir calls when anything is listed. It also can’t even support writing to the same set of keys as S3 should allow since it implicitly depends on underlying filesystem paths.

They might have added an index by now but gatekept it to their enterprise AIStor offering since they’ve abandoned any investment in open source at this point or appearance that they care about that. Their initial inclination in response to this issue says everything - https://github.com/minio/minio/issues/20845#issuecomment-259...


on what?

Look under the hood, the limitations are based on the core, sticking a UI on it does not hide what needs to happen at scale.

Guessing you’re referring to minio not ceph? Have they still not figured out how to do day 2? I mainly avoid them because of their license and the way they interpret it

They are not efficient; they have a one-time static hash to create a cluster. After that, it is all duct tape and glue. Want to expand? Add another cluster (pool) and then look for the cluster that contains the object. They don't know which cluster has the object, and performance does not scale as well with additional clusters. Want to decommission a single node, drain the cluster. They refer to multiple pools as a single cluster, but it is essentially a set of static hashes that lack the intelligence to locate objects. Got the initial EC configuration not quite right.. sorry need to redo the entire cluster.

MinIO is a good fit if you want a small cluster that doesn't require day 2 operational complexity, as you only store a few TBs.

I have not looked into them recently, but I doubt the core has changed. Being VC-funded and looking for an exit makes them overinvest in marketing and story telling.


That tracks with my past analysis as well, thanks

Even if the cooling system was free p&p will be $7 million.

But that's embedded compute on a satellite isn't it, not a data centre in space.

Reduce latency for what? I can't think of how, unless of course you ran a laser down to starlink or some other completely impractical plan.

Genuinely most "AI" DCs are spending less than 9KW on cooling for every 100KW of servers. If you were that bothered about getting that to zero, you could literally sink them into the ocean, build a heat network so the town can take the heat for free or use any of a dozen more established and practical ways to do that.

Please don’t suggest heating the ocean! Someone might just go to try to do that. The ocean is already warming too much!

It's a bit demoralizing how many suggestions in this thread would have significant environmental effects beyond what large scale AI training already has.

It's far far faaar more demoralizing people not realizing orders of magnitude...

Something like 2/3rds of sunshine is already being absorbed by oceans. How much solar power do humans harvest? A billionth?


I'm talking about the above proposals (albiet hypothetical) to either cover a pole of our planet in solar and other ocean based proposals--not solar in general.

It's a bit demoralizing people talk about AI training as if it were even 1/100th the environmental impact of the personal automobile or frequent airplane trips

It's already being done all over the place. It's not particularly damaging compared to the alternatives.

It's totally mad and impractical; I love it!

That's excellent pricing from a structural perspective.

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