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Does anybody remember when trolling was a term used to describe an activity in which users wielding enough understanding of other's perspectives would attempt to give other's cognitive dissonance?

It seems that one of the most powerful online political classes have lumped hatred and abuse in with disagreement, mockery and satire.

I don't think it's good for the conversation between the group of user's that dislike where Reddit and other big social media sites are headed and the people that are taking them there.


It is really easy to define the meaning of terms if you are the easy-to-agree-with side of a conflict. And now you cannot even mention the elephant in the room anymore without being immediately flagged, banned or at least called a women hating privileged white boy.

I miss those days when I was proud to be a troll, when it meant tricking people into thinking in ways that they normally wouldn't. People used to love trolls! Of course, it didn't just mean that. There were also troll raids when friends would get together and make silly comments on every thread they could find, crashing the party but having fun with it. The incendiary ones used to be called flamers, but I think that term is too trollish to use against trolls these days.

> People used to love trolls!

No they didn't.

> crashing the party but having fun with it.

I'm sure you and your friends were having fun with it. The people whose parties you crashed? Probably not so much.


This is starting to look like a debate similar to "where does tagging stop and graffiti begin?".

I was never the type to participate in the troll raid style, just the kind to nudge a conversation in a certain direction, more like taking a position in a debate that I didn't necessarily agree with to make it more interesting. I'm thinking of threads on forums where people would actually vote for their favorite trolls. But you would have had to be there to know what I mean.

>> People used to love trolls!

> No they didn't.

... Poe's law?


I think I remember the term flamers being retired as people began to misinterpret it as a negative term for homosexual individuals (based off of flamboyant). This would've been around a decade ago, maybe a bit more, so it could just be a false memory.

Yes, I think that's definitely it. That's what I meant by being too trollish. It's too much like something a troll would say. But I never even realized the anti-gay term was based on flamboyant, although it makes perfect sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

Bingo, the whole thing has taken on the contours of a psyops with the goal of silencing the opposition under the guise of "trolling".

More and more political debates have turned to a battle of "framing" rather than actually debating the positive and negative sides of some action (or inaction).


EDIT: Removed overreaction to grammatical pet peeve that distracts from the main point.

> It seems that one of the most powerful online political classes have lumped hatred and abuse in with disagreement and mockery.

Its pretty common, online and off, for people of all classes to ascribe disagreement with their preferred position with "hatred and abuse". Mistaking this common error for a feature of a particular "powerful online class" is, AFAICT, the same kind of misperception of persecution as the error itself.


Like changing the topic of #windows to "PC users wet the bed" during a netsplit? I think you may be viewing the past through rose colored lens.

Regardless, the things people are complaining about on Reddit aren't satire. I don't think a debate over word meanings is helpful.


No, not at all like that.

Like holding a straight face and carefully putting forwards an extreme position which you do not hold while making use of the correct memes and language so that it appears congruent to outsiders.

A humorous effect is created because a line can be drawn between those of the audience that know what you're doing and those that do not. A selection of the audience watches on as people that are not in the know either get angry with you or agree with your bizarre statements.

It's effectively hidden satire and that's why it was so fun and so potent.


I use to love to do this while at college. Homosexuality was still controversial enough you would get people debating it. Of course someone would eventually compare it to something most everyone agreed was wrong. Immediately the other side would try to say why that other thing was wrong, at which point I would jump in to defend it. I became so good at it that people would approach me after class to clarify if I was being serious or not. I even wrote a paper for a class that was titled something along the lines of 'A Defense of Consensual Relationships Between Genetically Similar Adults'. I ended up Poe's Lawing myself with that paper.

Sadly corporate environment isn't anywhere near as tolerant of this.


In essence invoking Poe's Law intentionally.

Does this mean that Democratic countries that are part of the Euro are rendered unable to listen to the wishes of their citizens and must instead act as despots on behalf of Germany?

If so, I don't see this ending well.

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The ones who were asked by Greece to cough up money pretty much agreed with Germany.

France and Italy didn't (at least not in public), because they would also at some point like to have access to taxpayer money from the Northern/Eastern EZ countries.

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Every borrower of money has to come to terms with the lender, or there will be no money.

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Never had this been true in history. Bankruptcy and debt forgiveness have happened regularly through history. And if those don't happen, usually revolution or war is a consequence.

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It is true, though. Bankruptcy (or its polite cousin "debt forgiveness") happens when the money tap gets turned off.

If you want the tap to keep running, you have to be able to compromise with the guys at the source and at least pretend to care about repaying it.

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I agree with this in individual cases.

But we are talking about an economic union among states where the biggest state is quick to socialize banking losses among the poorer states, and makes it a morality play about "Those dirty Southerners".

That's a pattern that doesn't end well unless someone is smart enough to hit the partial reset button.


For those interested in the tech, I found this article on the technology behind Urbit a fairly interesting start: http://moronlab.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/urbit-functional-prog...

Note: it was written in 2010 and I am sure that over the last 5 years a lot will have changed.

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https://github.com/sebinsua/ramda-debug

Debugger for functional programming code in JavaScript. Lets you observe and visualise data flows through your function pipelines.

https://github.com/sebinsua/jstruct

A declarative way of defining JSON transformations. Hoping to possibly create a JSON-first GraphQL with it later on by letting the client supply the definitions of the data structures it expects.

http://spokesapp.co

Networking for makers.

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My feeling last time I saw one in person:

Convincing the public to install a coffee vending machine in their house at cost to themselves by marketing it as a coffee machine was an impressive feat.

They're very small, stylish, and low-priced.

Until you start to buy the pods for your vending machine.

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Eh if it means im replacing a $3-$4 cup of coffee with a 50 cent cup of coffee + convenience, sounds good to me.

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This is exactly why I use a Nespresso machine. At $5 and ~10 minutes per cup of coffee from the coffee shop, with varying outcomes depending on the barista, vs 70¢ + milk per cup and almost perfectly identical every time, it just makes sense to use one.

Even at one cup per working day, that's a saving of over $20 per week for me. Even one of the top end machines would pay for itself in months.

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You could replace it with... instant coffee, y'know? I've found the more expensive ones taste good, and it's only cents per mug.

Sure, it's not the coffee-shop mouth-experience (I put a lot of that down to the frothed milk), but a Nespresso doesn't provide that either?

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Where I live, Nespresso makes a superior experience than I can find within a 3 mile radius. (fwiw, Los Angeles)

Yes, if I go to my absolute favorite coffee shop in town, it is superior to Nespresso.

But, in comparison to instant coffee (in my humble opinion), it is night and day, and its miles and miles ahead taste wise than coffee bean or star bucks.

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I need to try a Nespresso somewhere (not sure where/how).

At the moment I'm reduced to decaf, and I'm finding Percol Decaf Colombia excellent: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Percol-Fairtrade-Decaffeinated-Colom...

Though next I want to try a Peruvian coffee,.

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Find one of their stores. If you can handle overly pretentious staff for 5 minutes they'll let you try them for free.

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> Sure, it's not the coffee-shop mouth-experience (I put a lot of that down to the frothed milk), but a Nespresso doesn't provide that either?

Most, or some, Nespresso (and I guess the Keurig machine in the US?) had a little single-serve milk frother.

It's a little jug that contains a heating element with a small detachable magnetic 'whisk' component which is completely submerged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L50Renw5LqE

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You can get a decent superautomatic for $400, and a nice one for $700. This is quite a bit more than the nestle, but you probably end up breaking even after a year and getting better coffee at the same time.

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One of the best superautomatics I found on Amazon still has issues like cleaning, maintenance, and clogging that Nespresso just... doesn't:

http://smile.amazon.com/DeLonghi-ESAM3300-Magnifica-Super-Au...

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And, Nespresso usually fixes all problems for free. After all, they are in the coffee business just as equally or more than the coffee machine business. They have absolutely satisfying customer service skills.

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True. It's like Pepsi Cola convince the public to install a Cola vending machine in their house at cost to themselves.

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http://www.keurig.com/kold

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The business model is well-worn, just adapted to coffee. People are paying for the convenience. It's clear this isn't the cheapest way to make coffee at home, unless of course you value your time!

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The best use I see of those is in all sorts of waiting rooms - at car garages, doctor's waiting rooms, etc. You don't have to train your staff to use an expensive coffee machine which needs cleaning and maintanence, you buy a $100 nesspresso machine and if a customer wants a coffee they get one within 2 minutes,and it tastes very nice, with froffed milk and everything. I feel like it works very well for businesses.

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Yes! Very true! I love to go to the bike shop just for the Nespresso... ;-)

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Can you define this leaky sand or is just bullshit?

There is definitely a lot of churn, but slowly but surely you are seeing certain functional programming approaches winning out.

And the language is progressing so much faster than similar dynamic languages like Python.

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> the language is progressing so much faster than

Because it was a haphazard design.

A lot of the progress is just Javascript catching up to thoughtfully designed languages like Python. That's a good and necessary thing, but the fact remains.

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Python ground to a halt around the time Python 3 was released and last time I looked it was still barely progressing. Meanwhile JavaScript has ES6, ES7, TypeScript, npm, Ramda.js.

It's long past 'catching up'. It's a healthy ecosystem.

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> JavaScript has ES6, ES7, TypeScript, npm, Ramda.js. It's long past 'catching up'

Javascript is definitely making great progress, but npm thrown in as an example of how it's "long past catching up?" That's like, bare-minimum required functionality.

I'm not trying to attack, but when JS evangelists cite something like npm as a zap-pow feature, skeptics roll their eyes - especially when they've been using pip/rubygems/cpan for a decade or two.

Edit: I realize now you were probably citing npm more as evidence of JS having arrived with a healthy ecosystem (true) than as evidence it's leapfrogged others.

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I would bet that in 20 years time many other social networks will not be standing yet Twitter will.

Maybe it makes less money and grows slowly, but I check Twitter every day and can't see myself stopping. On the other hand, Facebook is a ghost town. Many social networks explode into the scene but most burn out quickly.

It's nice to find a way to make a quick buck, but I think they should be thinking of the long-term, too.

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I assure you, Facebook absolutely isn't a ghost town. It is transitioning into something very different than it used to be, though. Back in the college days it was a cool service that people were passionate about. These days it's practically a utility - some social glue that helps to hold your life together. That's no bad thing - I certainly don't expect Facebook to go anywhere anytime soon.

Aside from anything else, I value the past content I have on Facebook - photos, mainly. By contrast, Twitter content is almost all ephemeral.

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I think at this point everyone has already heard the "social utility" description and it dire straits add much to the conversation, particularly because phone books were a social utility too.

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I'll bite. I've tried to use Twitter for something for years, yet the best I've gotten out of it are shortened links to content I'm already aware of through other channels (like HN, reddit, etc.).

My Facebook feed on the other hand is full of more information on family, friends and my local neighborhood than I can reasonably process in a day.

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My experience is completely the opposite to yours. My Facebook feed is full of information I really don't care about: what people had for dinner, where they are, invitations to play games, ugly pictures, etc. My Twitter feed on the other hand is full of nuggets that keep me informed on things I'm "really" interested in. My advice to you is that you just need to follow the right people.

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> My advice to you is that you just need to follow the right people.

That advice works both ways doesn't it?

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No it doesn't. Many of the people I follow on Twitter don't have Facebook accounts and for some that do have Facebook accounts I don't really want to be their friend -- just listen to what they say. I don't think you really understand how Twitter works. Twitter != Facebook. They are not even close.

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At the end of the day, the quality of your facebook feed depends on who you are friends with. If you want a better facebook feed cull out the ones who post uninteresting things.

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Sorry but I don't unfriend friends. Reason: they are really my friends and it would be rude -- not to mention hurt their feelings. That is just one example of where Twitter excels above Facebook: you can unfollow or mute a feed. Most of the people I follow are not my friends -- just interesting people that have interesting things to share.

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http://gizmodo.com/5876654/ignore-your-annoying-facebook-bud...

Just saying. I do understand your point though.

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But on Twitter it's perfectly acceptable to not follow your close friends. It's not expected that you do.

On Facebook, the opposite. Hence why I'm an avid Twitter user, but don't have a Facebook account.

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Per Facebook as of March 2015, 936M people use the service every day, 798M using their phone. I love Twitter too, but with 13% of the world using it every day, it's no ghost town.

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Not saying you're wrong (am a heavy twitter user myself), but we should consider that taste is a fickle thing. Only a few years ago many people checked myspace, friendster, orkut, etc everyday. Now they don't. As quickly as social networks grow they can also collapse.

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Don't know (and I don't think anybody knows) if Twitter will be around in 20 years but I do check my Twitter account constantly. Twitter helps me stay up-to-date with things that are important to me. I prefer Twitter over any other "social media" sites (and I subscribe to most).

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I hope they'll be around in 20 years. It's the internet's watercooler, and we'd be worse off without it.

But that's the fear—that they'll mess up too much right now, and kill their 20 year prospects.

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Twitter restricts choice of clients and filters some @mentions from your notifications with no option to disable filtering.

As soon as a reasonable competitor comes along, I'll gladly jump ship.

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I'll bet that Facebook will have more active users in 20 years than Twitter does. Anywhere up to $200. Up to you.

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Have you stopped to consider that for most other people the opposite might be the case?

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I doubt it. If twitter is nothing but a feed, then the notification feed on your phone could do a much much much better job. What Twitter did to RSS, a nice notification app could do to Twitter.

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Amen to that. Twitter is a great thing and business, it just doesn't print as much money as management told everyone they would. As such, the stock is continually under pressure.

The stock being mispriced has nothing to do with the "value" or viability of the business, just the lifespan of the current management team.

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When are they coming to the UK?

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As long as the number of people that choose to exercise their freedom of expression does not fall you are right.

Let's just hope that people do not begin to follow extremist muslim law out of fear for their lives.

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There is no muslim (extremist or not) law that encourages these acts, research it. You can tweak any law to do exactly as you wanted to do and that's what those people are doing. The last thing I know about a war (if we put this as a kind of war) is don't cut trees, don't kill non-armed soldier, women, children or old people but they keep beheading people on national television.

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Start a twitter or a blog. Or both.

Please.

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