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• Philosophy

• - Partially Examined Life: http://www.partiallyexaminedlife.com/

• - Philosophy Bites: http://www.philosophybites.com/

• Comedy

• - Bill Burr Monday Morning Podcast: http://www.billburr.com/podcast

• - The Bugle Podcast: http://thebuglepodcast.com/

All you need is philosophy and comedy, anything else is superfluous.

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The Bugle regularly makes me laugh out loud on my commute, although I'm not sure quite how well it translates for non-Brits. Co-host Andy Zaltzman is the brother of Helen Zaltzman who also co-hosts an excellent comedy podcast, Answer Me This.

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A fellow bugler?! Well met, good sir. I like its Britishness and frequent references to cricket and other such obscure and quaint social rituals. In truth - though I am a non-Brit, I am an inhabitant of the Emerald Isle persuasion and require very little in the way of machine translation.

I am listening to Answer Me This! as I type my reply to you and I thank you for the pointer.

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..and sex maybe?

https://soundcloud.com/guyswefucked

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Seems to be mentioned on this Electronic Literature Organisation blog post waaaaay down the page: http://eliterature.org/2014/06/announcing-winners-of-1st-coo... :)

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It is my opinion that traditional poetry will be seen as a proper/strict subset of procedural poetry in time.

You are most definitely not alone in your thinking, your idea was too far ahead of its time for those people you presented it to. Do you have your code anywhere online? This was my attempt: https://github.com/igravious/poetify/tree/clean_raine but it is broken at the moment ... sigh This post makes me want to fix it.

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Well. Thanks for the reminder. I always mean for the code I put on Github to be shared but I rarely seem to plonk a license file in the project root folder. (Does that mean I subconscious _don't_ want to share???)

I just GPLv2'd https://github.com/igravious/clearsilver_ruby and https://github.com/igravious/clearsilver_ebuild Nothing earth-shattering but it's a start I hope...

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> Does that mean I subconscious _don't_ want to share???

No, it's just a reminder that releasing software is kind of a pain. You have to write docs, you have to choose a license, you have to organize things, tag your repo, maybe make a .tar file if your project is big enough (or it's expected by your audience).

> Nothing earth-shattering but it's a start I hope...

Everyone has to start somewhere! Nice job.

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Thanks :)

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How does this (poetry technology) differ from electronic poetry[0]? There must be some degree of overlap. PoetryDB sounds fascinating, could you go into more detail? I was tinkering with an electronic poetry publishing platform which I called Poetify[1] but I didn't get too far. It requires Ruby 1.8 and Camping so it's a bit quirky.

I have been mulling the idea of a standardised electronic poetry markup (PoetryML) for some time, this would facilitate openness, sharing and innovation in the field. Of course, it's not an easy task to come up with a file format that encompasses all this experimentation. I have some concrete thoughts on the matter and a small bit of working code...

My friend and colleague, Giovanna Di Rosario, recently wrote this dissertation, Electronic Poetry: Understanding Poetry in the Digital Environment[2]. Great to see a fellow HNer into this deeply interesting field.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_poetry

[1] https://github.com/igravious/poetify/tree/clean_raine

[2] http://elmcip.net/critical-writing/electronic-poetry-underst...

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PoetryDB is intended to be a database of poetry consumable via an API. You can try it out at http://poetrydb.org. The API is documented on github at https://github.com/thundercomb/poetrydb.

There is definitely overlap between Digital Poetry and Poetry Technology. However as the name suggests, Poetry Technology is more than the resulting instances of poetry. It is as much, if not more, about the technological process and mediation.

Digital Poetry is perhaps more apt as a marketing label to a consumer (just as we might say, “I like listening to electronic music”). From the point of view of a practitioner, my objection to Digital Poetry as a label is that it is two dimensional, and casts poetry technology as a variant of existing poetry, whereas this is misleading.

Digital Poetry, unfairly or not, is not on the whole viewed too seriously by the literary establishment. It is considered to be gimmicky and perhaps even a failed attempt to achieve “serious” or mainstream literary work. Poetry Technology aims to set that right, by drawing attention to the technology, the process, the body of knowledge that it draws from, the theory that can inform the practice and application, the potential works that could be created. It is much more than a label.

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Your markup project sounds intriguing. Would love to keep in touch to hear how it progresses, do you have a preferred way of being contacted?

I also tried the poetify weblink but the website doesn’t seem to be running at present.

Thanks for the links.

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> I also tried the poetify weblink but the website doesn’t seem to be running at present.

I know :( I upgraded Ruby past 1.8 and broke my own app :( but the code is there for you to have a gander at and the README gets at what I was trying to do.

> Your markup project sounds intriguing. Would love to keep in touch to hear how it progresses, do you have a preferred way of being contacted?

Your database of poetry consumable via an API sounds intriguing. I would love to keep in touch to hear how it progresses! Would this be able to support a poetry sharing social network of authors, followers, and readers?

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That's an interesting suggesting. There is no reason that the API can't be extended to accept posts of actual new poems. The reason this hasn't been done is largely practical, because I'd have to tackle the security and authentication side, and probably put in place some moderation too. A truly multi-tenanted social database, where people can share their content or keep it private as the case may be, sounds intriguing. However this would be a much larger undertaking. The current incarnation of PoetryDB had a somewhat simpler, less "social", aim.

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Thanks again for drawing my attention to ELMCIP, it looks like a treasure trove of learning in Electronic Literature. I tried to access the full text of Giovanna's thesis, but unfortunately the link seems to be broken.

PS: Wrt your earlier question, I don't mean to sound hung up about labels, and what to call such and such. This tends to be a futile exercise anyway, as to what will be taken up in popular usage. What I do think is worth reiterating is that poetry technology in particular tries to shift attention away from digital poetry as simply "poetry in another medium", and moves "lower down the stack" to investigate and clarify the real material and symbolic grounds that give rise to digital poetry / electronic literature. This material and symbolic ground is necessarily a combination of the new aspect, namely information technology at large, text processing technologies, program language techniques, data science, and the specific methods that can be applied to language learning and pseudo language learning, etc. ; as well as the traditional and ongoing aspect, namely the body of poetry since the dawn of civilisation, the literary criticisms and appraisals that took shape around it, formal understandings of poetics, etc. In other words poetry technology is about bringing together two considerable traditions in their own right (one new, one old). The danger, at least from the mainstream point of view, has been to see this as gimmicky, a recurring flirtation. Poetry technology is saying there's more to it, they're in a relationship now.

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It'd be nice if they used some of their massive pile of cash to back-port that feature and generate a ton of good will.

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Google does a lot of Linux kernel work, a lot of gcc work, a lot of clang work, open-sources monumental amounts of code, pays several hundred students to work on open-source during summer.

If that's not enough to "generate a ton of good will" then doing one more minor thing won't change anything.

If they start giving out hundred dollar bills, you'll be complaining that it's not two hundred dollar bills.

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I'm aware of the work they do. A couple of stupid decisions can cancel out a lot of good will. Not back-porting key pieces of tech and sunsetting products without open-sourcing them is going to counteract the good will they generate. I actually don't dislike Google, and appreciate that they've been a decent open-source player.

This is not so minor.

If they start handing out hundred dollar bills I would think they'd gone nuts.

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Perhaps not call the app TextSecure then?

I think Moxie is a total dude but wasn't SMS encryption the Unique Selling Point of TextSecure? It was the reason I installed the app and go through the inconvenience of typing a very long string into the app every time the app restarts.

I undertsand the logic of what Moxie is saying, if that's the case then the conclusion should be, "We need to shut down the entire app", not "We got to switch off encryption"

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It will still be possible to send encrypted messages, just over the internet rather than over SMS. This has been the default mode of operation for a while now, we're just disabling the old SMS mode that has been lingering for the past few years.

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I know you are busy, and even if you get this i assume you won't respond, but i am tired of sending email to support@whisper. Why can i not get group messages from iPhone users when wifi is turned on? I have sent my logs, emailed, and talked with at least two of the Inner Circle, and no fix works. I bring it up here because you are degrading/destroying one of the biggest reasons i use (and relentlessly flog) your product. You can look through the emails; i love you guys and i want to support what you do. But the fact that the shit a)just does not work and b) is now going to leave me (and others) exposed makes the feel extremely sad.

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Was away from HN and didn't see your reply Moxie.

I get that SMS leaks metadata. It's like email in that respect, isn't it?. And we still want to encrypt email. Is it so much of a burden for you people to carry the SMS encryption code? Maybe a fund-raising drive to keep it financed and included?

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The next version is called Signal, so there you go.

The reasons make sense - SMS as a transport is almost unworkable, there's a lot of crap involved with MMS bugs that it would be good to rip out, and it can never be compatible with iOS.

A replacement for GCM/push/etc for wakeup would be nice - I wonder what that would look like? - but it'll do for now.

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When you say, "there is a school of thought which embraces the idea that the universe is senseless" the first idea that springs to mind is existentialism[0]. Are you talking about existentialism? You mention Nietzsche, he (along with Kierkegaard) are claimed to be the fore-runners of existentialism - the idea that life has no (intrinsic) purpose, senseless in the meaningful sense.

Their claim is that one can give meaning to life by imposing or constructing a meaning or a purpose of ones own. I think it would be a stretch to equate this purposeful overcoming of the futility and the absurd with the general pattern recognition and construction that the mind involuntarily engages in moment to moment.

Postmodernism, if it is anything, is the rejection of or going beyond the project of modernism (the clue is in the name). Modernists still believed in grand projects, ideals, and narratives - for instance, the implicit idea of progress. You could say that postmodernism paradoxically rejects over-arching grand narratives and in a way claims to bring to an end the grand intellectual epochs we've had from the renaissance onwards through the enlightenment and finally arriving at modernism. I've yet to come across a satisfactory account of postmodernism beyond the one I've just relayed.

[0] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/

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Interesting.

How about blue? No? What about International Klein Blue[0][1]? Maybe yes? Just goes to show. I would say that the first deliberate black canvas, yes. After that, no. Derivative :)

Shark-in-a-tank[2]. The contemporary work of art people don't think is a work of art. I wonder why that is? The title alone is intriguing, "The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living". The formaldehyde gives it a distinctive hue. The vitrine is divided into three rather like a triptych. It's outrageous something gave its life in the creation of this work though people have been worked to death for far more mundane tasks. I don't like shark-in-a-tank, but it's art I'm afraid.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Klein_Blue

[1] http://www.themilanese.com/?p=6939

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physical_Impossibility_of_...

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The Double Irish is being phased out slowly. Here's a NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/business/international/ire...

This got announced at the last government budget - I could not make any claims about the economic repercussions one way or the other.

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