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gcp 13 days ago | link | parent | on: Brendan Eich and Mozilla

Contributing to a political campaign is promoting your beliefs.

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gcp 13 days ago | link | parent | on: Brendan Eich and Mozilla

This makes it impossible for a minority movement to slowly gain traction.

Why do you think secrecy in voting is widely considered to be necessary for true democracy?

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devindotcom 13 days ago | link

It's not impossible, and while some forms of secrecy are necessary, I don't think they are "widely considered to be necessary," even if "true democracy" was a well-settled concept that happened to agree with your understanding of it. We just don't see eye to eye on this and likely won't ever.

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saraid216 12 days ago | link

You're basically not saying anything except, "I disagree."

Voting is the same type of public, political speech that donations are. Indeed, in a world where money is indisputably an overwhelmingly dominant medium through which votes are gained (that is effectively the point of donations), they are practically synonymous.

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gcp 13 days ago | link | parent | on: Brendan Eich and Mozilla

Mozilla reserves the right to hire and fire (which would have been Eich's fate had he not resigned)

On what do you base that assertion? There certainly was no indication for this, and the board claimed the opposite.

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MrZongle2 13 days ago | link

I take the board's statements with a block of salt. These are, after all, the very people who appointed Eich in the first place.

The company has insisted that Eich wasn't forced to resign due to employee pressure. But why else would he resign? Eich has been with Mozilla since the beginning, serving as an architect and CTO.

He stated "under the present circumstances, I cannot be an effective leader." Why? Because those whom he would lead refuse to be led by him, the organizations he would work with would refuse to work with him, or a combination of both.

If this were the case, then in the company's best interest the board would have to fire Eich.

It was inevitable.

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gcp 13 days ago | link | parent | on: Brendan Eich and Mozilla

I don't get this viewpoint.

You can say whatever you want, as long as you don't want a bullet in your head. Does anyone recognize that as freedom of speech? I doubt so.

Clearly we recognize freedom of speech as the ability to speak out with some limit on the repercussions of that. I'm not clear what they should be, but there certainly are some.

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devindotcom 13 days ago | link

"Freedom of speech" is a guarantee that the government will not curtail your ability to say what you want on whatever topic, with some specific limitations.

You can say whatever you want. If I say "you know what, I don't think black and white kids should go to the same school," I assume the liability for that statement. I may think it's reasonable, and other may as well, but the fact is in this day and age that statement and sentiment will do me all kinds of damage. Especially if I'm a public figure.

Are we actively working against people who believe differently from us? Yes, that is called activism. As long as it is nonviolent resistance, civil disobedience, or simply speaking out, we are within our rights and fighting for what we think is important: equal civil rights for all people.

Will that get people fired? Hell yes. You think superintendents who were in favor of segregated schools didn't lose their jobs? You think diners that wouldn't serve black people didn't go out of business? Activism aims at producing consequences, whether it's changed laws, greater visibility, or the removal of people who support the opposite cause. In the case of civil rights the stakes are high enough and the groups large enough that major consequences are possible. Eich was one of them. Here's to a hundred more!

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badman_ting 13 days ago | link

A bullet in your head, right.

Anyway, has anyone else noticed how supposedly a community of people not wanting one guy as CEO is a terrible tragedy, a lynching and on and on, but not Proposition 8 and the larger movement to prevent people in love from being able to marry? "The death of one man is a tragedy…"

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planet.mozilla.org has a blogroll.

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I agree. Though you could argue that the internal support for him also wasn't strong enough that he stayed on. Silent majority?

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I think that's a good point. Realistically, once the cat was out of the bag and the initial PR response from Mozilla failed to connect, the matter was realistically out of their hands. They could've encouraged Eich to stay and weather the storm, ensuring that the controversy kept going and Mozilla itself remained in the background of the gay marriage question, or they could've let him do what he did, and now endure the controversy from the other side.

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Using your power, whether it's your vote, your money, or your vocal platform, to deny other humans basic rights for no valid reason

I have to laugh every time someone uses this argument.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

I could quote some choice passages, but you should really read it in full. I'm pretty sure every single last one of you has "voted or supported with your vocal platform" positions or politicians taking positions that are directly contrary to what's in there.

We're in a society where even in the most progressive of places we're so far away from this ideal, that whenever someone claims something isn't a political issue because it's "obviously the right thing", I want to throw up.

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mkr-hn 18 days ago | link

We don't have to be perfect to advocate for improvement.

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That's equal to admitting your career in a technological organization is strongly determined by whatever personal political views you hold.

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bakhy 18 days ago | link

no, i'm just pointing out that there is no need to launch any kind of crusade against Mozilla, as the parent implied. it isn't such an XOR situation - either accept everything Eich does, or drop Mozilla altogether. i'm still using Mozilla. protesting him as the CEO does not imply abandoning or destroying Mozilla. JavaScript neither!

and it's not really my career or your career, he's the CEO (!) of Mozilla. it is a company with a certain ideal behind it, and he has opened discussion on whether his past behavior is at odds with that. his defenders too often here take the position that there simply should not be such a discussion...

personally, i do think it is a bit blown out of proportion. but it did offend me. particularly the claim that it is just his freedom of opinion and that Mozilla itself would crumble if he would change his opinion now (?!) and all that hiding behind Indonesian people, what's up with that? in any case, for me it is about me, and my life. it is not some abstract subject. it's not something i can just donate a little money to, and ignore it the rest of the time. it was people voting about my life (i'm from Croatia, but we had our referendum last year), and about a subject that will not concern their life or family at all..

i just must complain... because i don't want to use Chrome :)

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gcp 18 days ago | link

protesting him as the CEO does not imply abandoning or destroying Mozilla

Protesting Eich as CEO on grounds of his personal beliefs has very very strong repercussions for Mozilla as a community.

and it's not really my career or your career

It is my career. I'm not CEO and I haven't spoken out on gay marriage, but I have spoken out, personally, on any number of subjects. If Eich is forced to step down, I'd consider myself on strong notice that any personally made statement on any political or moral subject could be a serious limitation to my technical career, even if at the moment I make it it's the majority opinion. How downright insane is that?

and all that hiding behind Indonesian people, what's up with that

He's pointing out that there's Mozilla communities who see things very very differently from the USA-centric shitstorm that he's experiencing. Should we kick them out, or limit their careers, for being bigots?

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bakhy 18 days ago | link

re.1 - well, not as serious repercussions as implied in the comment above, that was my point. i'm sorry, but i cannot subscribe to the idea that i should either abandon Mozilla completely or never criticize it's choice of CEO. (no matter how many downvotes i will get on this site in the process...) that's what i wanted to say. of course, this could do damage to Mozilla's reputation, but that's not, by itself, grounds for dismissal of the discussion. the rest, however, are good arguments.

re.2 - it is, you are right. but i think one issue remains - is his sponsorship of Prop 8 at odds with Mozilla ideals? that should matter when choosing Mozilla's CEO.

re.3 - no. i think it would just be nice if Eich would stand behind his opinion, instead of dragging both Mozilla's future and the whole country of Indonesia into this. none of those Indonesian contributors are CEOs of Mozilla, so their political views do not reflect on the company itself. if a known anti-LGBT Indonesian became CEO, then I don't know, we would probably see a similar reaction.

and P.S. it is kinda racist to imply that all Indonesians are against gay marriage. his dragging that whole country into this is not cool.

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They are based in California, what did they expect?

Well, Prop 8 did pass, so...

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parasubvert 18 days ago | link

Touché :-). But I meant the larger (more liberal) enclaves like the SF South Bay.

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