People have a lot of opinions of javascript because it really is the Statue of Liberty. You really can know a subset of Algol and have portable apps in the browser asap.
Well gosh darnit, then everyone and their mother is going to come to America
The thing is brilliant UI engineers will stun you with incredible UI. It's almost like not investing in AI, you will get blind sided by products that just look and feel better. Your backend engineers are never going to cut it. This is true for backend engineers too, if you try half ass it with "full stack" devs, brilliant backend devs will stun you with things and your products will be inferior.
For example, we all got stunned by the machine learning people. We have to pay attention to everyone.
backend and frontend engineers aren't as distinct from each other as they are from ML or something like embedded development. It is very normal to be able to build a web interface end-to-end, and frankly something I expect of every competent developer in that space. Someone who is a high-performing frontend engineer should also be able to perform at a high level in backend, and vice-versa. I'm talking about the industry as a whole though, and specifically that I wouldn't trust the average "frontend developer" to be making wise engineering decisions. Saying this coming from a background of working with designers on webby award winning projects and having a high degree of respect for the platform.
I totally get your point. I'll just give you a little color about where I'm coming from. Most products don't need a team of over five frontend/backend devs (so imagine a team of 10 people). Most teams have been over staffed. When you are overstaffed, that's when everyone needs to be cookie cutter
with cookie cutter expectations (e.g backend should do ui, frontend should backend). On non-overstaffed teams, the core group compliments each other very well and brings extreme expertise. No one on such a team ever goes "I can do what that guy does", because it's not a run of the mill mass market team.
I think in the age of AI we'll see more concentrated teams since everyone can hit up AI and do anything. It's going to be very important to build tight teams, and I don't think it's going to happen by continuing our factory farm level recruitment.
That's an interesting point about team composition. Companies originally split frontend from backend to scale up the number of developers they could put on projects. The idea was that each system could be a black box to the other team, and you may only need one person that understands it all end-to-end. The problem was that by splitting monoliths into multiple services they basically lost most of the advancements the industry had made to increase developer velocity. If your org was trending towards hyperscale, then you would have been transitioning to a multi-service architecture anyways, but for everyone else the move to SPAs resulted in a massive loss of productivity.
Listen, how impactful LLMs will be largely depends on the type of code teams are writing. If you're already building in a highly declarative manner, where your libraries are automatically handling most of the glue for you, then you may not have much of a need for writing code more quickly. These are the teams that are actually fast. Teams that already spend a bunch of time writing glue code will likely see significant improvements in velocity, because LLMs are good at regurgitating existing patterns. What they probably won't do is refactor your project so that your team starts operating on the level of the formerly described one.
You should ignore all of it. They mostly sell the idea of a developer to you, the same with any marketing. That's what an influencer does, they make you feel good about buying a cheap identity.
These grifters sell entire courses on the product, that's their game. So when you find an unmaintained Remix app at your company, well, the grifters got the ears of your junior devs :(
Pure grift. But since most people are decent people they don't know and fall for it, and something like this influencer emerges. They have entire Discords of customers, the same as crypto scams.
Edit: I don't know why people would downvote calling out a notable grifter in a thread that extended out to a discussion about influencers. WHICH influencers? Are we scared of that topic? The climate of the JS ecosystem didn't happen accidently.
People fall victim to this shit right here on HN, and then write blog posts about what the fuck is wrong with frontend:
I find Remix really nice to work with, it’s a framework that embraces and utilizes web standards (what the article is arguing we should get back to doing more), and I’ve learned everything I know about it (and the majority of everything else I know about front end dev) for free. It’s not like you need to purchase courses to learn. At the same time, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with selling courses to teach people about a framework. But the idea that the entire thing was created just to sell courses about it is not true.
But I do agree that there’s just way too much fast moving, breaking changes on front end in general, frameworks released every other week, etc…
It does. It bridges a purely server-rendered architecture with a SPA really nicely, and does it mostly with web standards. You don't need to run any client-side JS with a Remix app. It's not perfect, but there are a lot of benefits to its approach.
I won't try to argue there's no front-end treadmill: there absolutely is, and I had to laugh reading the current top comment because I just had to migrate off Apollo CLI at work.
But this "The web was perfect in 1999--stop changing things!" take is tedious and intellectually lazy. (I'm not accusing you of it, but it's certainly a common sentiment.)
We should be working together to solve concrete problems, and avoid both chasing the latest fads and pretending there's no room for improvement.
It’s a nuanced topic. If we want to dive in, I can provide a glimpse into the first layer of the anus as we stick our head into it.
When we shepherded a lot of sheep into frontend via these courses and boot camps and quasi courses/bootcamps in the form of certain frameworks (hey, you only know this one framework?), we created a cohort of something.
Now what is that something? It’s not really the tinkerer that loves doing this stuff and would have found a way to express themselves (please pay attention to the word “express”, as in, can’t help it). That something was … a pragmatic identity. A pragmatic identity was formed where “I am now a software engineer because I and my cohort agree, we really know how to do our stuff”.
Such a cohort can only be fueled by identity, not passion. This cohort can’t innovate and must cling to the identity of their original accreditation, so they will always be defensive.
That’s the first layer of the asshole as we enter it, it goes deeper. The second layer involves large amounts of money and people’s livelihoods, to which they’d defend unto death.
Okay? I'm having a lot of fun talking about some of the parts of our circus. I can't change anything. There will be new cult leaders (evangelists) for frameworks, and new cohorts, we can't change the past. Just pay attention to the rough framework (no pun intended, swear) as it happens again, and try our best to call it out, because it didn't always lead to great outcomes.
Money will be made on all sides regardless and we will all be fine financially. I'm talking about something else, inner. The infinite anus, asshole, is real - but now I'm just projecting.
IMO, the pain from "mostly" starts to show when integrating React Router v6 with legacy frameworks and applications. I'm sure if you go all in on React Router v6 it's great.
At my $DAYJOB we are migrating to Remix w/ GraphQL Federation. It's been a pain.
Especially because we haven't finished any of these migrations:
* ExtJS -> JQuery
* JQuery -> React class components
* React class components -> MobX-observed components
* Observable MobX components -> functional React components with context
* Functional React Components with context -> React Router v6
* React Router v6 -> Remix w/ GraphQL federation
I understand my situation is unique - I'm just bitter from needing to know ~6 different frontend technologies at once. Let alone all the Not-Invented-Here-Syndrome abominations in our codebase.
It's not that unique. The one enterprise app I worked on (that was started with Rails 1) had all of: Prototype, jQuery, Backbone, Angular, React, Handlebars AND mustache, vanilla CSS, SASS, CSS in JS (or whatever it's called). I wouldn't be surprised if they've introduced Tailwind at this point.
It actually wasn't even THAT bad considering how huge it is. People still complained (admittedly myself included), but it had been TDD'd from the start so had very good test coverage, at least. Also, some people who had worked on really massive Java applications called it "really good!" so it's all about perspective, I suppose :)
your last note that adds not-invented-here abominations… if chasing endless frameworks of the month is bad, and building stuff in house is bad, then what do you propose to avoid making this mess?
Skip a couple framework versions and indeed entire frameworks. Maybe go a couple years before you "upgrade" to something else. It is entirely possible you could go as much as 5 or 10 years on something. You'll still have to evaluate and potentially mitigate some CVE's. But that could actually be less work and less aggravating.
My point being, it's "based on" Web Standards, it is _not_ Web Standards.
What if I use `fetcher.submit(data, { encType: "application/json" })`? Why not just use fetch directly at that point? I believe it adds a layer of indirectness that just wasn't there before.
If web standards are so important, why don't we use `window.fetch` and `new FormData()` directly instead of wrapping it?
My favorite example of this being JSON gets converted to FormData on the frontend, which then gets POST-ed to the server, which then converts it to JSON on the backend.
I think you're mistaken. I can't comment on the quality of Kent C. Dodds' educational content, but his formal affiliation with Remix was short-lived. The courses that he sells have no apparent affiliation with Remix (the open source project or the company).
Incidentally, Remix is an open source project started by the React Router devs to create more framework features around React Router. React Router is probably one of the most widely deployed JavaScript libraries ever and is the furthest thing imaginable from a project created by grifters to sell online courses.
Remix was also a company that raised a $3 million seed round and then was acquired by Shopify (for presumably much more than $3 million). Shopify appears to continue to invest heavily in Remix and React Router development, and appears to use Remix heavily.
I don't think it's weird to like a piece of software and have that lead you to work at the company that builds the software and also to develop an educational course about that software.
There are only a few popular, promoted alternatives to NextJS right now (that I know of): Remix and TanStack. That is, if you're fully React focused, ofc. I dont see promoting Remix as a red flag.
Promoting it? No problem. But promoting something you profited from without disclosing it violates FCC rules for broadcasting. I would say influencers aren't technically broadcasting but they are in principle.
> React Router is probably one of the most widely deployed JavaScript libraries ever and is the furthest thing imaginable from a project created by grifters to sell online courses.
This is a funny example (to me) because in 2017, one of the two co-creators of React Router (Michael) came to my job and gave a two or three-day in-person training course on React. I think he also covered Redux and React Router. We had a great time getting to know him.
It turns out that Ryan and Michael spent a substantial amount of time and effort on a side business called React Training. It is fair to say that their speaking engagements were a solid revenue stream, but agreed - definitely not grifters.
In case anyone isn't familiar with remix, bloomingkales seemingly has no familiarity with the framework. Obviously it's not been created as a conspiracy to sell training courses. The idea is ludicrous.
It's quite a nice framework. It's easy to learn, straightforward, the people in their discord are very helpful. It has the backing of a large company (shopify) who are using it extensively.
It is, I'll say again, obviously not a conspiracy to sell training courses.
I get why you might feel that way. Ryan and Michael used to run a company based around React training. They created React Router which some people love to complain about. They've since moved over to working for Shopify. Shopify pays for their development on React Router/Remix. They do NOT sell training anymore.
Kent on the other hand, worked with them for a short time. He makes his living selling training. Filling in a gap (selling training) isn't really a grift is it? The dude's got a family and he's found something he can sell.
E.g. react-router was ready 5990 commits ago. It is a grift, they keep rewriting it and reengineering the API over and over and over again just to be able to sell more training.
Look at wouter for what is possible if your motivation isn't selling training material. It was written and left alone, it works just as well, it's stable and doesn't change for no reason.
You asked if react-router team sold courses, they sold consulting services. Seems like a conflict of interest to sell consulting on a tool you built while introducing breaking changes (but hey if you need quick help throw us a few dozen grand).
I guess that's fine for you but it's very smarmy IMO.
I think that adds to my point. How does that have so many stars on github? The customers "star" it. Who uses this on a real app? It's alright to slowly accept the bitter truth that grifting scales.
Not really sure that's relevant. Grift implies an intentional value extraction without providing anything. Using your example: I'm confident that the time spent working on remix and courses related to it resulted in far less monetary gain than spinning out courses on React. If you think Remix is misguided or a bad framework etc... that is very different from grifting. A corollary: Is Deno a grift because it shares the same creator as Node and has a paid product attached to it? In my opinion no but you might disagree... I'm mostly opposed to the idea remix in particular exists purely as a grift - love it or hate it there are far easier ways for someone with the influence of Kent to make money.
That was the end goal for this whole thing. I do look at the pricing page (what are you trying to sell constantly?) on anything people put up on the internet and judge from there. You can have the last word and put in a testimonial for Remix, since I won't be budging on this. It's a rabbit hole for both you and me to keep going at this, as I've seen enough of this pattern. Consider me a neural net on this front (end).
I'm not interested in writing a testimonial for Remix, merely commenting on the absurdity of calling a project of this scale as nothing more than a grift to sell educational content. There's no reference to these paid courses anywhere on the landing page, there's no callout for paid courses in the main navigation. The only mention of tutorials at all is buried in the community section which leads to: https://remix.guide/ which seems to be unaffiliated with the Remix team, and has no section advertising paid courses anywhere. You're talking about a framework that has been acquired and subsequently used in production by a global company in Shopify - clearly there is something to the framework beyond being a vehicle for tutorial sales.
Again, I want to be clear: This is NOT an endorsement of Remix. Your line of thinking seems to be conspiratorial and not grounded in reality. You mention repeatedly about pricing and the end goal of funneling noobs toward course purchases... One would assume that in conspiring to sell courses the team behind Remix might actually advertise that they have courses for sale on their website.
I have to be honest as a third party that a. doesn't work with remix, b. doesn't know anyone who works on remix, c. doesn't know you - it seems like you have a personal vendetta.
No personal vendetta. We sit here and punch the mysterious air as to why things are the way they are. I thought maybe we'd punch up at something that is plausibly a culprit. I'll admit it may be punching down, since this is just one dude. But then again, it's one dude who influenced a lot of people ...
We can't just keep sitting here and blaming developers for being
1) New
2) Dumb
3) FOMO
4) Dumb
5) Unqualified
You understand? It's worth looking at what content they are consuming and where the mindshare is being promoted from. It's worth asking who is selling them the idea of these frameworks.
> We can't just keep sitting here and blaming developers for being New / Dumb …
Well, as a cohort, I think the ratio of inept programmers to skilled programmers stays mostly constant regardless of stuff like this. Like, if programming is hard to learn, fewer people will try and learn it. But also the skill bar goes up - so people spend more time as inept developers before they’re skilled. Likewise if programming gets easier to learn, we get a swell of fresh faces eager to become frontend developers. And the ratio stays more or less the same. It’s kinda like a sales funnel, or a hiring funnel. You always have more leads in your funnel than conversions. (And if you don’t, you’re in trouble!)
We live in an anti gatekeeper era. Content is free, but nobody protects you from wasting your time watching edutainment. The downside of that is real - lots of people waste countless hours larping as students. But the upside is real too. It’s easier than ever to learn anything.
>Grift implies an intentional value extraction without providing anything.
Is it without providing anything, or a value extraction greater than what one is providing?
If the former, it makes the definition very each to check, but it almost makes it very easy to avoid grifting by providing even the most minimal value, and leads use to needing a new word for providing some value but extracting more than provided (perhaps intention should be included). If that is the case, might I suggest "jrift"?
I can tell you that your response is at least relevant for me because I happen to be working with Remix right now, not because of any influencers but just because I happen to be working on a Shopify project. I've seen lots of frameworks come and go and evolve, so I'm not surprised that this one changes a lot, but I always enjoy getting opinions from people with experience. Whether or not I'll end up resenting it in the future, I don't know, but at least I'll have been warned.
Obama just made a random decision to make a China pivot. We had a large force in the Middle East and instead of just bringing them home, we created this weird apparatus to shift the strategy over to China. This is similar to if your company decided to introduce Agile. That extension of your company will never go away, and will have ideas.
The idea that “someone is stealing our technology” is just an idea, similar to “developers don’t give good estimates or timelines”. An idea that will feel like the right idea to all, and will be copied. Copy cat culture exists in war too (why are you fighting them? Because they are fighting me).
This is a contrived problem, and demagogues like Trump seized on it. Was it all Obama’s fault? Not quite. Bush had already created a war apparatus in the 2000s, and there was no turning it off, just turning it around and pointing it somewhere else.
——
We are the storytellers of this history, we lived it. We are the primary sources, don’t doubt your ability to document this history. AI was never imagined in the halls of Research to create a never ending forever digital war.
The only hope we have is that Trump is a true circus ring master. He cancels the previous admin things and reinstates them with his name and a republican spin.
I know, people felt like eggs were too expensive and brown people were getting too much of a free ride so they voted to burn the country down.
The grand summary of America 2025. I don't think anyone has said it better than that in all of media. They gymnastics people run to avoid that simple truth just reveals their rotten core.
No. Lines being drawn is fine. It's fine to see the faces painted exactly as they are. The Left actually doesn't need to win back any voter from the Right. They just need to passionately show the faces of those on the Right, and the larger demographic of the Left will emerge.
When you see the corruption allowing, greedy tax obsessed Republican, when you see their true face, it's the greatest rallying call for a blowout midterms.
Just cut the tall grass to see the critters in the field.
Well gosh darnit, then everyone and their mother is going to come to America
It's an age old envy.