Interesting point. If you have a gun to your head, and disobedience has virtually no effect except suicide, then you have virtually no responsibility.
Compare to those of us who are complicit (even if tacitly) in all sorts of crimes, from war to global climate destruction to mass incarceration. Much more responsible than this Auschwitz guard, since we have more freedom to act effectively.
(Assuming he's truthful, and couldn't frag his Nazi commanders nor organize his peers.)
There is nothing in this comment I agree with at all. That doesn't mean I think it's bad; it's just startling to me how different someone else's worldview could be.
I am responding here just for context, it is not directed at you. The parent comment is evidently not popular. It has already been pointed out in comments that many did actually martyr themselves rather than follow the orders or be a cog in the system. However what really annoys me is the insincerity of the "holier than thou" position adopted by many here. Yes, some of those who are commenting here would, I think, martyr themselves in such situations, but I doubt if the majority would. I seriously doubt, if even 50% of those commenting here from that patronizing position would do any different, and I am being generous. Its not about just those who have left such comments, I wonder how many among our own peers would take a moral stand in light of the consequences, particularly when I see people grumble and moan self righteously about even petty inconveniences. Again, I know some would, I know one or two people among my peers of whom I have absolutely no doubt that they would sacrifice themselves, and it fills me with a sense of respect for these people that I cannot even begin to describe. I would like to think that even if I dont sacrifice myself I would find a way to squirm out, but that is perhaps wishful thinking, unless you are put in that situation you never know yourself well enough.
Many people were in the same position as Kiriakou, Snowden, Manning, many were fully aware of the wrongs that were going on, how many put up a resistance at a cost to themselves ?
Do I consider John Yoo to have committed worse acts than this guy, well, absolutely, assuming his account is truthful.
A nonignorable artifact is that we turned out to be on the winning side. Had the winners and the world order been different, Wolfowitz and their ilk would have been the new Eichmann's in the then popular narrative.
@tptacek Just to be clear I am not making a case for a moral equivalence, far from it. The only connection is that many people were in a position where they could have mitigated wanton civilian casualties and gross miscarriage of justice, if they chose to adopt certain personal inconveniences. However very few actually did. A sizeable portion of US were dead against the Iraq war, but among them many still continued to fund some of it with taxes, why ? because among other things, not paying taxes would cause considerable inconvenience.
And again this not by any means directed at you. I am not an US citizen but had I been one, I would have paid the taxes anyway and rationalized it away that taxes does good and very little of that is funding the war.
> Yes, some of those who are commenting here would, I
> think, martyr themselves in such situations, but I doubt
> if the majority would.
This.
I thought about it yesterday, and I believe the most important difference between people living "in the situation" and commentators today is this: we know the Nazis lost the war big time.
1. I truly believe that quite a few people would try to act if they knew the war was coming to an end, their action would be seen as heroic, and therefore they either live as heroes or at least be remembered as such. Conversely, it's not tempting to act if you're going to be vilified when the Nazis win and rule the world.
2. Wasn't it clear by 1944 (or whenever) that the Nazis would lose? In a way yes, but if you want to argue that, think about Syria. A year ago it was clear that Assad was finished, he would certainly lose his power and quite possibly his life. Today he's not only in power (over a smaller Syria), but some in the West are actually wondering if we shouldn't include him in a coalition against IS. Now that he gave up his chemical weapons, we're clearly fine with whatever he's doing.
I also have trouble arranging Nazi camp guards, a CIA analyst alleged to have outed an undercover agent during a book press availability, Snowden, and the person who dumped a database of foreign service cables to a stranger on the Internet. I have, literally, no idea how to order that set.
I don't know if that's interesting to you or not. Just a difference in our worldviews.
Comparing our stance against the climate change, with a full-featured genocide is nonsense.
There's a limit to everything. Then again... when individuals with psychopathy imagine others in pain, brain areas necessary for feeling empathy and concern for others fail to become active and be connected to other important regions involved in affective processing and decision-making[1].
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you've got to make it stop."
Disobedience of orders within a military hierarchy in wartime will certainly lead to court-martial, and in serious cases may result in a death sentence.
Did some digging, luckily you are now obligated as a German soldier to disobey:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_and_obedience_in_the_Bu... "He must not obey if the order violates others' human dignity, international law or consists of a crime (including a misdemeanor)"
Well not back then of course.
Compare to those of us who are complicit (even if tacitly) in all sorts of crimes, from war to global climate destruction to mass incarceration. Much more responsible than this Auschwitz guard, since we have more freedom to act effectively.
(Assuming he's truthful, and couldn't frag his Nazi commanders nor organize his peers.)