Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Input: Fonts for Code (fontbureau.com)
151 points by wasabian on Aug 3, 2014 | hide | past | web | favorite | 41 comments

Wow, I never thought I would see proportional fonts specifically designed for coding. I've coded almost exclusively in proportional fonts for over ten years. The font I use the most is Georgia. It makes code easier to read and more pleasing to the eye, just like any other text.

Besides personal preference, I think there are two main reasons people avoid proportional fonts: column alignment and two-space indents.

Two-space indents are an unfortunate trend in coding styles, because they practically mandate the use of a monospaced font to see the indentation. I use tabs for indentation, which let each developer adjust the visual indentation to suit their own eyes. Four-space indents are OK too.

I would love to see programmer's editors provide a way to control the amount of visual indentation that each leading space represents.

Column alignment of course is not possible with proportional fonts, but that's an easy problem to solve: don't do it. Instead of this:

  void DoSomethingWithStuff(SomeReallyFancyTypeName thing,
                            string                  name
                            int                     count,
                            bool                    condition);
Write this:

  void DoSomethingWithStuff(
      SomeReallyFancyTypeName thing,
      string name
      int count,
      bool condition
While you lose the advantage of seeing all the parameter names lined up, it becomes much easier to visually associate each name with its type. My eyes tend to wander when I have to scan across a wide horizontal gap to match things up.

This style also leads to much shorter line lengths as can be seen here, and it's easier to maintain: You don't have to realign things when you change the length of the function name or one of the type names, or when you add a parameter with a longer name than the ones you have already.

A case where column alignment is more useful is ASCII art in comments. I've experimented with using a monospaced font for comments and proportional for code, which solves that problem nicely. But I don't use ASCII art much myself, so I went back to proportional for everything.

I'm looking forward to trying out these fonts!

I would say that the problem is "SomeReallyFancyTypeName" where you've created a ridiculously long type name (one of the reasons I avoid Windows programming at all costs).

That aside, editors don't handle tabbing very well. It's far more space-efficient to insert two tabs instead of 8 spaces, but space and bandwidth are so cheap these days, no one can be arsed to fix what is viewed as a minor problem (use enough spaces and sooner or later, we're talking real bandwidth).

Then, there's the moment where we have to decide what those all those tabs (and sometimes spaces) mean, depending on the language, the layout rules, personal preferences, etc. For example, some people write Python with 2 spaces at the beginning of a line (which is plainly heresy). Others write it with 4 spaces (which is damnable blasphemy). Which is right?

And how many other languages are like this?(hint: any language in which layout is indented for any reason)

And concerning line length - what's the maximum allowable length before wrapping? You say 80, I say 132 (sometimes more), but I run terminal in a full-screen mode with 13-pt type, single-screened, never side-by-side.

Personally, I've learned my lesson. I'm waiting for editors to smarten up before I muck around with proportional fonts for code. Again.

Thanks for the comments. You're right, "SomeReallyFancyTypeName" was a bit of a strawman on my part. But even with shorter type names you still have the same problems if you use column alignment. I actually gave up column alignment long before I started using a proportional font. I just found it to cause more headaches than it was worth.

You mentioned that "editors don't handle tabbing very well". All the editors I use most frequently - IntelliJ IDE, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Komodo, Sublime Text, UltraEdit - handle both tabs and proportional fonts without any problem, so that hasn't been an issue for me. I'm curious to know what editors have trouble with tabs.

Anyway, I try not to worry too much about tabs vs. spaces. My only real objection is two-space indents. That's just not enough for many people including myself.

Of course many editors don't support proportional fonts, but that doesn't cause a problem for those of us who like to use proportional fonts in the editors that support them. It's really easy to write code that is equally readable in a monospaced or proportional font.

Regarding the line lengths, my coding style lends itself to very short line lengths, as shown in the example above. I think that helps give some freedom to use wider indentation.

This (http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/) is smart tab handling. All other editor aren't that great, compared to this.

Totally subjective opinion, but yet to see something beat Consolas.

I actually prefer Ubuntu Mono over Consolas or Inconsolata but fonts are a very subjective thing. :)

On my Macbook I've tried many many coding fonts, yet Ubuntu Mono is actually the best. All others either seem to render weird to me or I don't like their look in the first place.

One reason I like Ubuntu Mono is that it supports a large number of Unicode characters. When I was using Inconsolata, a non-ASCII character would be replaced with a glyph from a different font (usually being a bit too big in gnome-terminal). I'm glad that there's a variety of high-quality open fonts to choose from!

The biggest problem with Ubuntu Mono is the rather small size of its punctuation, especially dots have been nearly invisible for me. Other than that, the Ubuntu family of fonts are fine indeed.

Ubuntu mono always seemed a bit crowded to me, it was my default before I got my hands on Consolas. With infinality freetype it looks really beautiful too.

Exactly. I love Ubuntu Mono and have settled on it after extensive search.

I prefer Inconsolata, but it renders poorly on Windows in some applications. Consolas is a good fallback though

I tried this DOS VGA font out just for fun and it kind of stuck...




Yes. Call me old fashioned but VGA remains my font of choice for coding, email, and general text editing. This is the one I use: http://www.inp.nsk.su/~bolkhov/files/fonts/univga/

Every year or so, I do the font dance and scour the web looking for clean bitmap fonts (I strongly dislike antialiased fonts, my opinion may change when I get a higher resolution screen) but always come back to uni_vga.

Scanning over the page and the 'explanation' page, I found a headache developing as I tried to read everything there.

My experience so far is that I find this far harder to read. For reference's sake, I don't do parameter alignment in my own code (see Stratoscope's comment), but still find it easy to scan code in most-any monospace, probably because my eyes just know where to jump to all the time...

For all the words in favour of proportional fonts, I would venture that when the words on a page are in fact ultimately forming macroscopic symbols (identifiers), often with PascalCase or camelCase or underscore_words, uniformity no matter the characters used is perhaps a more useful feature than making the words easily comparable to those read in prose?

Agreed. If somebody likes that — well, that's nice. I even see on screencasts sometimes TextMate with proportional fonts, so obviously somebody will find it desirable. But it won't be me for sure. First off, what I've seen there doesn't seems readable by itself. Second, I don't really see any real benefits of using proportional fonts for coding, while drawbacks are quite big: when I'm tired or just reading quickly through the code I often find myself depending on being able to see that lines with the same number of characters have the same width.

Even more than that (maybe it's something like "professional deformation" already, but I'm fine with it): I've considered using non-monospaced fonts automatically for stuff like LaTeX or markdown, or my own txt notes, but didn't find it pleasant enough. For all the european languages, anyway — typing japanese in vim is a bit painful for me and I don't know languages with more exotic writing system, be it arabic or hindi. I even hard-wrap natural language texts, which would be crazy using proportional font — and am glad I did so, when I want to see it through `less` on fullscreen.

Maybe this is the place to ask about my pet peeve - why do fonts, including specialized coding fonts, position parenthesis with both sides equally?

I mean, it seems that for readability it would be better to emphasize the fact that they're asymmetrical - when looking at "foo(bar)baz" , it would be better if the parens would be a pixel or so closer to their inner contents; but currently "foo(bar" on most fonts looks as if the paren is merging with the initial text.

The same would apply for foo[bar]baz and foo{bar}baz.

Fonts do it because outside of code there is just always a space character inserted before every parenthesis. Adding additional space inside the parenthesis character would just increase that space, something that is not desirable.

The topic is developer-oriented specialized fonts - so there is no such thing as 'outside of code', and in a monospaced font no space can be added since the width is fixed - so my question was about shifting the parenthesis towards the 'inside' within that width.

I was just giving a historic explanation as to why no one might have thought of that. (By the way, good modern fonts actually do a lot in terms of automatically adjusting the spacing of individual letters, and popular layout tools like InDesign offer algorithmic alternatives to whatever the font comes with by default. In proportional fonts “Te” will typically be closer together than “Th” – if you output those fonts with the right program. So fudging with spacing in some automated fashion is not out of the question.)

However, even in code it is desirable to not add extra space to parenthesis, since “foo (bar” is certainly no less common than “foo(bar”. Basically, the font would have to automatically adjust depending on whether or not a space is in front of it to treat both of those cases appropriately. (I think that’s possible with current font formats, so there is likely no technological hurdle to this.) However, that might not be desirable since it might make “foo (bar” and “foo(bar” easier to confuse.

even in code 'foo (bar' is as common as 'foo(bar' and because parens tend to be narrow -as opposed to W or M- moving it one direction or the other would leave a -taste vary but- weird looking gap of white space. It would also through off visual alignment in columns, which is basically the only argument monospaced fonts have going for them.

This is some truly amazing work. Love the option to change the built-in line spacing.

(I’m a monospace addict, and I always switch between Source Code Pro, M+ 1m, and others. What I don’t like about M+ 1m is that it’s narrow, and the line-spacing in the web font is too small.)

Do you use M+1m in a retina display exclusively?

Yep, I’ve actually never seen it without retina display.

I think this must be made clearer when comparing fonts. I expect a lot of things to look good on retina!

On the info page:

""" <div><span class="highlight">M</span></div>

<div><span class="highlight">M</span></div>

<div><spam class="highlight">M</spam></div>

<div><span class="highlight">M</span></div>

proportional fonts can make it easier to spot typos """

The example given demonstrates that a certain subset of typos can be caught using proportional fonts, but not all.

If a word has too many or too few characters in it, I think you are more likely to spot it utilising a monospaced font.

EDIT: the quote has been made more legible.

Just the Mono family alone is excellent. There are a number of different weights available, each with italic and bold variants, and the repertoire of glyphs is extensive.

I enjoy condensed fonts like Pragmata Pro (which I highly recommend), and this appears to be one of the few viable alternatives I've seen. Merits a week-long test-drive, I think.

Actually, it looks a lot like PragmataPro: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7c5yifw5saip3ae/pragmata_vs_input....

Yes indeed, but with light and ultralight variants. A day later, and I'm still enjoying Input a lot.

I have been having a love affair with Source Code Pro, thin weight, at about 14pt, using Solarized Dark color palette.

There's something refreshing about it, it's nice, big, clean, and LEGIBLE. I use it for my IDE and terminals and there's no turning back.

Highly recommend everybody check out Source Code Pro!

I just recently switched. Turns out, this is the same font that Codegansta uses, as seen here: https://gophercasts.io/

So you can get a nice preview of it if you like :)

(though, i think he uses 12pt, i use 13pt personally.)

Looks nice, I've switched my terminal to Condensed and works great.

I unfortunately can't use it in my main IDE's as both PyCharm and PHPStorm have bad aliasing on Linux fortunately solved by Terminus which doesn't require it.

I will likely never stop using M+ 1m, which is a somewhat unknown font. Nice and narrow. Efficient. http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/M-1m

The example with breakcycles seems to be broken on chrome 36.0.1985.125 (Official Build 283153) for windows. http://imgur.com/hd4REcG

This caused me to lookup Sublime Text (3)'s font configuration options and see there were some options I didn't know about. For example, you can add line-height by adding

        "line_padding_bottom": 2,
        "line_padding_top": 2
to your Preferences file. Found this info here in what is also the best version of a ST manual I've seen http://sublime-text-unofficial-documentation.readthedocs.org...

I like the look of it. Will definitely try for a couple of days next week. No reason not to. ☺

It's nice but Pragmata Pro is teh_one

I would have liked to have seen the example page have a section how it behaves with ASCII art that you sometimes see in comments.

Check out the code of the Input.com site. There is some ASCII (logo)art in it.

Woops, I mean inputfont.com

HN would benefit from a programming font respite.

Registration is open for Startup School 2019. Classes start July 22nd.

Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact