Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I think you mean, "Many casualties on the Palestinian side." Has ANYONE been killed in Israel? While Gaza is bombarded and dozens are dead, including children.

Don't try to equate the oppressor with the oppressed.

Nor is the oppressor the side with fewer casualties. Germany lost far more soldiers and civilians in the Second World War, yet that racist regime were clealy the oppressors, whose end came only by force.

So it is with Hamas.

It's annoying when people we don't like win elections isn't it? EDIT: Which countries weren't racist in the second world war? All the allied countries I know anything about certainly were.

It's more than annoying when said people proceed to summarily exterminate and/or expel all members of the democratically elected government belonging to the rival party, and bring about a quasi-religious violent regime which kills its own people for ideological ends.

Also, it is not ok to use your own civilian population as human shields, raise a generation of kids to become violent martyrs for your cause, and sacrifice their lives for your ideological war, which include things like the "elimination of a Jewish state in Israel".

Hamas killing Palestinians living in Gaza who are having a wedding, which wasn't Islamic enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEud-cEjwQU

Indoctrinating children to hate and "kill Jews" to "liberate Palestine": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers

By the way, in Hamas' view, "liberate Palestine" means to rid it of a Jewish state completely. If they took all that money to actually improve the education and quality of life of their citizens (which is what they are, essentially), they could be a legitimate government of a legitimate state. They already effectively have a state in the Gaza Strip. But their leaders would prefer to fight their ideological war and sacrifice their own people for it. As often is the case, it's the leaders of the people with their ideological ideas who are most responsible for the deaths of their own population.

> They already effectively have a state in the Gaza Strip.

I don't understand why anyone would say that. The things that differentiate Gaza and the west bank from a sovereign state are precisely the basis for the horrible conflict happening there.

Hardly. The goal of Hamas "armed resistance" as they call it is a united Palestine with Jerusalem as its capital, no land swaps etc. This is an ideological position with zero compromise. Hamas' understanding of "occupation" is exactly that Jews have a state in the area.

Gaza could become a sovereign Palestinian state, it doesnt need a military to do so. No one is occupying it or attacking it, and it receives tons of American money. The problem is that their leaders are ideological crackpots, and many are corrupt on top of that, and they havent built up their economy, infrastructure, education etc in 7-8 years they controlled it. Instead they spent all their efforts on violent methods to advance an ideological agenda, and used their own people as human shields and used "state" funded TV and social centers to teach their kids to hate.

> Gaza could become a sovereign Palestinian state, it doesnt need a military to do so.

A state with entirely benign neighbors could, theoretically, endure without a military (not that such a state really exists... even Monaco has a few soldiers). Not being permitted to have a military does preclude a state from being considered sovereign.

In any case, you said "They already effectively have a state in the Gaza Strip." That's silly on a few levels, independent of the politics.

> No one is occupying it or attacking it

I know little about the conflict but I'm quite certain the people living there consider the blockade an aggressive act. I certainly would.

> The problem is that their leaders are ideological crackpots, and many are corrupt on top of that, and they havent built up their economy, infrastructure, education etc in 7-8 years they controlled it.

Gazans are definitely very badly served by the homicidal lunatics they've voted into office. I'd say the problem is a lot bigger than that. The lunatics are exploiting the situation but the conflict is a lot older than they are.

Yeah the Gazans are very badly served by Hamas as their leaders. Hamas could have taken the opportunity of having the entire area essentially self governed to set a shining example of Palestinian self government and focus on actually helping their people and grow the economy, develop things with thw money they get from the US etc. In fact they could work with Israel and other countries to do it. But they choose the path of violence which makes the US, EU, UN and others label them a terrorist organization, and that hurts the regular people in the Gaza strip.

As for the blockade - it is there to try and prevent arms smuggling into Gaza which has happened before (via tunnels, boats etc) from groups in Iran, Syria, Egypt. Iran as aa state actually delivered arms to Hamas and Hezbollah. It uses the Palestinians as a wedge against Israel being in the region (which it refers to as the Zionist regime). In fact, to many Arab states, Palestinian Arabs are often just a political tool but when it comes to helping them they have a worse record than Israel. Consider the relationship of Kuwait with Palestinians, 500,000 of which they expelled following the Gulf War with NO right of return, for siding with Saddam. Consider the feud of the Hashemite dynastry with the PLO -- look up Black September in Jordan or how 7000 Palestinians in west bank were summarily killed during the 1967 war. Not much outcry was going on when Jordan controlled the West Bank. But when Israel controls it, there is a great outcry about how they live there. I would like to say that the outcry should have been in ALL cases. The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq have been fighting for independence for over 100 years and hardly anyone talks about Turkey's "occupation" of them, or Saddam's gassing of the kurds with Mustard gas after the Gulf war for siding with the USA (short version: we betrayed them and left after we achieved our ends just like we did with muhajideen and others who helped us win wars against our enemies back then).

Anyway -- it's a complex scenario, and history is replete with violent leaders. Arab states originally wanted to see the Jewish state completely gone, and for it to belong to Syria! And earlier than 1948, Arabs would never want to work with any organized Jewish groups, to create one state. That was the conclusion of the Peel commission, which said the only way is to separate into two states. Look up "Al Husseyni" on wikipedia for example.

Today, the way out is to elect moderate leaders who reject violent resistance in west bank and gaza. This should be OBVIOUS. If gaza doesnt attack Israel it will mot be physically attacked. In fact if someone else attacks Gaza, Israel can help defend it. Furthermore, if they provide a great education for their children, increase economic ties with Israel, and actually ENFORCE normal laws like against stop smuggling qassam rockets into Gaza, or firing them, or killing people, etc. then the blockade can be lifted eventually and they can trade freely with other nations.

One thing is obvious: if Gaza lays down their arms Israel would NOT go in there or attack anyone. Gaza leaders can form a state of their own and go work with other countries to build it up for their people. But the current leaders have a stangelehold on Gaza. This often happens when an army leaves as suddenly as Israel. This happened when England left India after Gandhi (a civil war in which by some counts 1,000,000 people died) and it's happening in Iraq with ISIS now. It's unfortunate. But we havent learned how to do nation building properly.

> Germany lost far more soldiers and civilians in the Second World War

Not more than the Russians...

Check your historical figures. There's no possible definition X of the major Allies (hint: USSR) for which you can support your claim that "Germany lost far more soldiers [or] civilians" than X. You're smoking crack by like an order of magnitude.

You spelled "Israel" wrong.

Casualty != killed

That being said, I suspect you are correct about a disparity in numbers on one side.

Three Israeli teenagers were murdered.

A separate incident that was also not in Gaza and not related to Hamas. Somehow no one cares about those facts and Israel can use it for further aggression against a people, most likely hoping to spark further retaliation so they can escalate further.

> not related to Hamas

Huh? Take your propaganda elsewhere.

Um, the suspects Israel arrested are not members of Hamas but a group that has consistently clashed with Hamas... This isn't some hidden detail, haha.

Stop pretending we're talking about something else. The three Israeli kids were killed by Hamas, a Palestinian terrorist group. Read the parent.

There would be less people killed on the Palestinian side if Hamas' strategy didn't include purposefully putting civilians in harms way, such as by using them (including children) for human shields when Israel gives advance notice that a particular building is going to be bombed [1] [2].

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/middleeast/by-phone-...

[2] http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/08/world/meast/mideast-tensions/i...

Yea, wtf, why would people live with their families?

And why don't they have fancy bomb shelters like Israel!

The leaflets are practically taunts. Where are the people of Gaza to go? How are they to get out?


They don't have bomb shelters because their government sees utility in their deaths.

And yet they still bombed the building?

There would be less people killed if Israel's strategy didn't include creating settlements in Palestinian territory. There's lots that can be done to reduce casualties.

Hamas and good portion of the Muslim world wants nothing less than the destruction of all of Israel. They tweet about reclaiming Tel Aviv.

Settlements are irrelevant. They also haven't expanded geographically since before the second intifada. Homes are built within the existing perimeters of the settlements.

Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact