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Whenever people discuss "Star Trek Economics," they seem to limit their discussion to the apparent economics of, and within, the Federation -- and specifically, within Starfleet. This is problematic for two reasons.

The first is that the Federation is but one of many interstellar powers within its galaxy, and that's putting aside any of the thousands of unaligned or independent worlds and smaller coalitions. Many of these societies, even some of the Federation constituent societies, appear to use their own currencies or means of exchange. Take the Ferengi as the most extreme example. They are basically an anarcho-capitalist society, bordering on kleptocracy. Money is important to the Ferengi, to put it mildly. So how does the Federation conduct trade with the Ferengi government? On a more microeconomic level, what happens when Bashir and O'Brien order a couple rounds at Quark's? Who picks up their tab? Clearly Quark pays for his own supplies, and charges hefty markups, and he's always seen fretting about the difference. I have a hard time believing that Federation officers can just consume his (clearly limited) resources without contributing to his profit margins. And if they pay him in Federation Credits, what good are they to a non-member of the Federation? If they are not currency -- if they are more like scrip, or rations, or promissory notes good for X units of energy, or what have you -- then this creates a serious problem for Quark. Presumably, the value of Federation credits is relatively fixed and/or tied to some other unit or commodity. It is not a fiat currency. So why in the world would Quark accept credits, when he'd strongly prefer latinum? And how does one go about exchanging one for the other? For that matter, what would the Federation make of someone who decided to exchange all of his credits, even if he could, for gold-pressed latinum? If credits are not money, then perhaps they are something along the lines of notes or bonds, floated by the Federation government. In which case, Bashir and O'Brien pay for their drinks in the equivalent of US treasury bills, or perhaps in fractional shares of a Federation sovereign wealth fund. Or perhaps they are energy rations of some sort, in which case, Quark needs energy as much as any other business, and so he's happy to accept it (and to charge as many energy-units as he sees fit for his food, drinks, and games of chance).

The second problem has more to do with using Starfleet as the lens through which we draw conclusions about Federation society. If I were to show some alien society a documentary about the United States, set primarily on a US aircraft carrier, with ~90% of the situations and characters taking place in a military context, my alien viewers would draw some very interesting inferences about the US (or, more broadly, all of human society). They'd think we were a rigidly hierarchical society. They'd think we have a handful of basic professions, and that nobody really cares too much about personal property. They'd wonder how everyone gets by, and how resources are allocated, and they'd probably assume it's through a quasi-socialist system of rationing and stipends.

The microcosm of the US military is different from the macrocosm of US society, and especially different from that of the entire world. It's sort of a mini society within a larger society, operating under its own rules and organizing principles. Similarly, we should suspect that life in Starfleet is probably different, in some meaningful ways, from ordinary life in the Federation. And life in the Federation is different from life in the Klingon Empire, or in the Cardassian Union, etc.

None of this is to discount the deep and insightful thinking on the part of this article's author. Nevertheless, I think we should consider the limitations of the framework through which the shows allow us to view the Star Trek universe. We get our fair share of glimpses into the outside-Starfleet world, but we should still be mindful of the observational lens through which we catch those glimpses.




Star trek's economics make no sense at all and never have, unfortunately. It's clear that money is used outside the federation which means the federation needs it to interoperate. There's also clearly private ownership (they buy Kirk antique spectacles).

It's not clear that the Federation president is elected. Has there ever been any discussion of federation politics ever? Even on an aircraft carrier someone would mention an election.

Trying to infer post-scarcity economics from an internally inconsistent bunch of TV shows and movies where it's pretty clear there was never much thought given to the matter seems like a waste of time. I lost interest in the article when it tried to do this, Iain Banks's Culture which is much more clear about its economics still doesn't answer basic issues such as "why can't anyone have x?" Or "what if two people want the same x?"


Actually, I think Banks does address some of those points - mostly by pointing out that if you do have a society where almost all reasonable requests can be satisfied by asking then the perceived value of "owning" something becomes negligible. You could make unreasonable requests, say to have planet built for you, but you'd have to ask a Mind for that and they might or might not do it - depending on how interesting the request was. (Given that the Culture regards planets as bit wasteful from an engineering perspective, I can't imagine any self respecting Mind would build one).

Of course, the real get out, as Banks has pointed out a number of times - Culture people are not humans - they are the results of 10,000+ years of direct (genofixing) and indirect (their language Marain) manipulation by machines to be a good deal smarter, rational and more capable of enjoyment than we are. You could argue that this is the machine gods making their pets more compliant, or not....

Also, Look to Windward does mention "re-inventing" money... :-)


Banks has the advantage of being flip when explaining anything, so none of his explanations really need to hold much water. If you "need to ask a Mind" it just elevates the question to the next level (and the whole idea of Culture percentage, or however it's put, indicating almost any Mind is really only partially conformant to the mainstream, is a huge loophole -- what stops the Culture from becoming the hegemonizing swarm from Hell? It comes down to an argument about what sentient beings will do with unlimited power).

Banks at least has put enough thought into it to give flip answers, though. Star Trek is a mindless mess.


There is a section in Surface Detail (I think), where Banks makes the point that the difference between a galactic civilization like the Culture an a hegemonizing swarm is just a degree of restraint. :) It kind of reminds me of Michael Eddington's comment about the Federation -- at it's core, there's not much separating it from the Borg. At least the Borg tell you they're assimilating you. Just look at what happened to the Ferengi Alliance by the end of DS9. They appointed a "liberal" Nagus who had never made any profit and allows his females to walk around clothed!

It is also hinted in the Culture novels that there is a very rigorous psychological test that goes into the creation of a new Mind. I wish he went in to the "birthing" process a bit more. It seems at least the more even-keeled Minds become Hubs or GSVs, and the more crazy ones become ROUs, but what about the Minds that are too psychotic to be entrusted to the safety of pan-humans? They can't make "perfect" Minds, because "Perfect AIs Always Sublime". Apparently you have to be slightly off-kilter to want to stick around this plane of existence, but not too off-kilter.


StarTrek economics does not have to make sense for post-scarcity society to make sense.

For that to happen a number of things will certainly have to be in place, but in truth none of us know how the world will look like when most production is automated.


Right, the problem is that Star Trek isn't even a useful jumping-off point.

This article is "link-bait gone wild". Calling the article "The Economics of Star Trek" is valid in that the Star Trek setting is supposed to be post-scarcity. But that's about where Star Trek's usefulness disappears.

They don't even take their ground assumptions into account in either their background setting or their stories. (Most of the intrigue in the episodes is conflict over resources (unless it's the "Prime Directive" which is even sillier). Why do the Klingons want this planet?)


I don't see any link-bait with the article.

What I see is someone trying to speculate out loud about how such a society could work using Star-Trek as reference point.

Keep in mind that Star-Trek has always been fairly scientific in its approach to story telling and so I think it's absolutely fair to use it as a jump of point since it provides an already existing narrative to talk about an otherwise abstract idea for many.

To me it's speculation and it's concise enough to take serious. What he basically claims might be a possibility even if you took away Star-Trek but it would be harder to communicate the ideas.

After all isn't that what creativity is al about exploring?


Sorry, I didn't mean to deride the title. I think the article was based on a good idea (Star Trek is post-scarcity and people will read articles on Star Trek), but went down the rabbit hole trying to justify its title (by dwelling on analysis of Star Trek, which is a hopeless task).

I think a better approach would be to look at markets that are already post-scarcity or approaching post-scarcity. E.g. entertainment, many kinds of information, and software. What happens when the price of things gets so low that the cost becomes finding the thing you want rather than getting access to it?

In the world of open source (which isn't post-scarcity, but is similar in that people do stuff for "free" and so they aren't incented by money) we see what I refer to as the "economy of interestingness" where things programmers are interested in get lots of attention (3d game engines, web browsers, programming languages, editors) while things programmers don't care about are horribly neglected (e.g. accounting software, email clients)


I hear you.

Sometimes though you need a bit of a fictional narrative to help push thinking past the constraints if nothing else as inspiration and motivation.

But I am sure there are more rational ways to approach this.


27 Million died in WW2 for the USSR - that's a lot of volunteering .. That said .. Star Trek is based on a system of exploration ( We gain in knowledge and Lose in WAR) The Federation hopes to bring enlightenment when your capitalist society is ready for it.. And will not go to WAR over it. .ie. (With a phaser a can rule the world) In a Zero-sum fashion. As for the (USS war-boat) view of the world. We in the Federation would see it for what it is a WAR making ship to exploit any and all how can't stand against it. The Federation is about knowledge as wealth and the Ferengi, Klingon Empire, or in the Cardassian Union – it is all about power. And WAR keeps it in power. When the federation encounters the Borg by way of Q. The Borg seeks knowledge and power and only a Q can stop them with a greater power. The Borg has perfection as a goal of their collective. .i.e. 7of9 .. the Federation has freedom to learn as its goal. And will kill anyone who tries to stop it.


>On a more microeconomic level, what happens when Bashir and O'Brien order a couple rounds at Quark's? Who picks up their tab?

The author actually explains this if you read further. Quark's operates basically like hotel. The cost of the drinks is basically written off as part of the cost of doing business. His real business is operating the gambling tables and selling holosuites, both of which are purchased in latinum.


As someone finally watching DS9 for the first time, how does it work when Quark thumb-scans/charges Odo for 8 slips of latinum (in exchange for the baby changeling) in 'The Begotten' episode?

A few questions arise: Who does Odo work for? Who pays him? Does he use money (he doesn't seem to in any other episode)? How does Quark get the latinum?


Odo works for the Bajorans, who are not Federation members (for most of the series at least), though they are under the military protection of the Federation.


> how does it work when Quark thumb-scans/charges Odo

I find it funny that a scheming Quark would bother thumb-printing a shape-shifter. It's only Odo's honor that prevents him from saying, "Oh, no, that's not my fingerprint. Let me show you my current set..."


Also a bit funny is the Founders all look like Odo, or rather his "father", the scientist who experimented on him when he was "young".


I don't know, except that he's wearing a Bajoran uniform. I don't know if you noticed, but it's the same as the one Major Kira wears except in colour, like different-coloured Starfleet uniforms. Rom wears a Bajoran uniform too when at work.


Odo is not a member of Starfleet, he's (now) employed by the Bajoran government - Deep Space Nine is (now) a Bajoran installation, with the Federation administrating it until the Bajoran government basically gets its shit together after the occupation.


Quark has to pay for the space he occupies - he rents it from Deep Space Nine, which presumably at this point means the Federation. Those Federation credits he gets paid in can be used to pay for his rent, and other Starfleet/Federation equipment.

His profit comes from the other customers who pay in other currencies, including but not limited to, latinum.


Why does he have to pay for the space? The Federation is post-scarcity. Surely space is free. If space on DS9 is scarce, then how is it allocated? Fiat, apparently.

Star Trek doesn't bear up to any economic analysis. It's not even worth trying.


> The Federation is post-scarcity.

No, its not. Its just phenomenally wealthy compared to any place in the real world today.

If the Federation was post-scarcity, then many of the plot lines in the various shows wouldn't happen, and the Federation, notably, wouldn't be getting into conflicts with neighbors for scarce resources like territory, etc. (And if it did because the other party started it, it would wave its hand to generate an arbitrarily-capable defensive force, win the conflict, and be done immediately -- which obviously isn't what actually happens in any of the series in that situation, which seems to recur fairly regularly.)


What you're pointing out is that Star Trek makes no sense. The original Star Trek technical manual stated that they had what Neal Stephenson would later call "matter compilers" and used them for everything (the same technology that allows transporters to work creates food and clothing and recycles waste).

And Star Trek only gets more contradictory baggage as it goes on (in one episode of TOS they essentially resurrect the bridge crew using transporters; so I guess they could replace all the dead security officers too). It's explicitly stated, many times, that there's no money. But none of the implications of this are followed through.

And this nonsense suffuses the entire show, not just the economics. The new J.J. Abrams movies manage to be even worse, but at least they're fast-paced and the actors are trim. (Why does the Federation need to make deals with Khan when Spock just gave them interstellar transporters that can penetrate shields and target starships moving at warp?)

About the only thing that makes sense in Star Trek is that their security teams are utterly incompetent. In a world with infinite wealth and resurrection machines, there's little incentive to stay in shape and learn difficult (and painful) combat skills.


Perhaps the Federation actually is the Culture; perhaps the Minds of the Federation are staying hidden, and purposely confusing all these issues so that people have the impression that they have something to do.


Dave Barry once commented that the holodeck would be mankind's last invention and that transporters would make everyone morbidly obese. ("Beam me some nachos with queso.")


> Why does he have to pay for the space? The Federation is post-scarcity.

Deep Space Nine is not Federation property, however - while it is only administrated by the Federation, it remains the property of the Bajorans. Presumably, payment for use of space is part of the arrangement with the Bajoran government.

> Star Trek doesn't bear up to any economic analysis. It's not even worth trying.

I can't beat Tetris, either.


Yes but you get higher and higher scores in Tetris.

Presumably the post scarcity Federation could simply build its own arbitrarily large and luxurious DS9 next door to it. In any event, space isn't likely to "cost" anything.


My HN and Reddit karma keep growing, too :P


Everything about DS9 is different because it is on the far frontier outskirts of the Federation (technically outside,) where there is regular interaction with non-Federation peoples. The station was owned by the planet Bajor, which was a candidate to the federation, not a member. Bajor is not a rich, self-sufficient planet, it was devastated by war and occupation prior to the start of the series.


"They are basically an anarcho-capitalist society, bordering on kleptocracy."

I completely and utterly disagree with that statement.

See here:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ferengi

I pasted that link because I didn't think you knew that the Ferengi had a government and governing structure. But then I realized that it could be the opposite...that you don't know what anarcho-capitalism is. So here is a link, please read it, and don't confuse anarcho-capitalism with any form of immoral government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism


> On a more microeconomic level, what happens when Bashir and O'Brien order a couple rounds at Quark's? Who picks up their tab?

It is mentioned in the article that the Federation would likely hold reserves of foreign currency (like latnium) for trading with peripheral civilizations. It's likely that being stationed on an alien space station would give the DS9 officers some stipend of latinum for trading with the locals.

It could also be that Sisko worked out a deal with Quark that rent and maintenance is free, so Starfleet officers drink for free.

Or like he also said in the article, drinks are just a loss-leader for the Dabo table and holosuites.


> Take the Ferengi as the most extreme example. They are basically an anarcho-capitalist society, bordering on kleptocracy.

They are undoubtedly capitalist, but they are far from anarchists. They have leaders that have to power to establish property rights and revoke them. There are episodes of Deep Space 9 about the Ferengi politics in which Ferengi women fight for the right to conduct business and wear clothes (!).




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