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Don't understand why we don't start naming and shaming. It's a lot easier to not see as a real problem when it's always stories of nameless men in unspecified locations and situations. And the kinds people who are prone to this behavior are being given a free pass, only to do it again later.



The point is it's a systemic problem. Internet mob justice is generally terrible to begin with (for a lot of reasons) and it doesn't solve the problem.

Also, at the risk of stating the obvious: there are potentially very serious ramifications for the person doing the naming and shaming too. Most people don't like being called sexist assholes even if they are, in fact, sexist assholes.


Shaming usually makes people either dig their heels in more and justify their behavior, or it drives the behavior underground where they won't get caught for it. Neither is a desirable result.

I think that what Heidi did is basically perfect - she's educating people that this does go on, it does have an effect on the women who are subjected to it, and they shouldn't have to put up with it. But she's doing it in a neutral, non-defensive tone, without calling out specific people. That's usually much more effective at changing behavior.


Naming and shaming is hard for anyone who has to have a continue relationship of even a distant sort with a guy and it is hard to prove a lot of accusations. So I wouldn't pressure anyone to be the namer-and-shamer.

But if you could get over those hurdles, it should happen, regardless of those shamed "digging in". Seriously, this kind of behavior seems much more authentically shameful than a lot of illegal activities carrying multi-year sentences. Sorry but knowing that inappropriate behavior has hard consequences works as a deterrent, maybe not for the first guy confronted but for the tenth guy, who at that point knows they just better not do that.


Why shaming? Isn't this shit outright illegal? There is time to worry about shaming after the lawsuits.


Win or lose, lawsuits are an enormous time and money sink. That's for any lawsuit. Sexually harassment ones are worse. Asking somebody who has been harassed to go public or file a lawsuit is putting an enormous burden on them, one that they don't deserve.

In my view, the problem is the behavior of some guys, enabled by a much larger number of guys who are ignorant or indifferent. I think the solution mainly lies with waking up that latter group.


Lawsuits suck, I'm sure sexual ones are the worst.

But if some sleazy fucker knows that the worst consequence of harassment is social disapproval it drastically lowers the stakes for him. You have to count on the harassed person to want to make the harassment very, very public so that the people outside his close also-sleazy social group find out, remember, and hold him accountable.

Beyond losing friends and contacts, any retribution would have to happen in the business world; how do you hold someone accountable inside a system were sociopathical ignorance of the social consequences of your actions (and the actions of other) is rewarded. My entire life has been a series of events crushing the pleasing ideals I was taught as a child regarding morals, they just don't matter in business. Some businesses have them, and it costs them money to exercise them.

Legal recourse is how society turns externalities into internalites.


If the recourse is the lawsuit, then you have to count on the harassed person to a) want to make the harassment very, very public, b) figure out a way to pay for a very expensive lawyer, and c) be willing to spend years in a very stressful proceeding. For criminal law, substitute for b) a willingness to deal with an often-hostile legal system.

It's great when that happens. But take a look at what happens to people who report rapes, a crime for which their is often physical evidence. E.g.: http://msmagazine.com/blog/2011/04/15/woman-pays-for-reporti... or http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/it-happened-to-me-i-... http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/38671/test-case-...

And I can't quickly find the links that were the stories I found most compelling, the ones with the enormous social consequences. The questioning of what "really" happened. Getting smeared as crazy, a bitch, manipulative, etc, etc.

It's great when people who are already traumatized willingly go through that. But it's a great deal to ask of someone in that state.


Because what if the namer/shamer gets it wrong? Have you ever heard of the Salem Witch Trials? Or even Donglegate, for that matter?

It's the whole reason presumed innocence is a cornerstone of every modern justice system.


Let's figure out what kind of behavior you mean by "this behavior." Does it mean saying dongle to my buddy?




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