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The problem is not java the lang. It's the java developers. Looks like they moved on to do angular now.

That's a good sign. Y'all JS devs need to learn something from Java community (especially the engineering/quality side) even if you guys have to go through the pain of Java growth (small => medium => bloated => denial => acceptance => cleaning up => shaping up for the future).

Amusingly, I'm undergoing that transition right now from doing mostly JS to doing JS & Java professionally.

I'm not sure how I feel about Java so far, although there are problems that I want to solve in the Java backend at work for future scalability, since the quality of code is actually worse than our frontend code currently.

It's a bad sign for .js devs: trouble ahead.

JS ecosystems in terms of quality, tooling, and engineering is already bad, can't be worse than that really...

PS: No, yet-another-js-library-to-replace-jquery is not considered tooling. No, yet-another-replacement-for-grunt/bower/yeoman is not a good sign of the ecosystems. Java has Maven since 2004.

Maven is horible. Hth

It's awesome and other tools (bundler) are copying it or build on top of it (gradle, buildr, Ivy repo). XML is horrible, not Maven.

Python tools don't even come close. Ditto with .NET NuGet. Find me a tool that can compare feature by feature with Maven and still relevant for a long time.

I've always said: "With Java plus XML, you can have one language for the price of two."

With Java, you write a lot of syntax to get static typing, but it's worth it because static typing! Then you throw static typing away (because now it's to restrictive I suppose?) to use XML files which must be structured a certain unpredictable way or you'll cry at the traceback you receive, and pray your imminent Google search can make sense of it all.

Nobody with any sense uses XML in Java anymore. Everything uses annotations now.

Well, your responses mostly amount to "OMG, I hate Java coders / everything there sucks" etc. Not really insightful.

I partly agree with this.

I'm a systems engineer, but I have to touch some Java code from time to time. I always have an hard time with the amount of indirection an average Java developer can reach. Luckily a few smart guys were hired recently and they have past experience in contributing to the JVM and their approach to the code is completely different and much, much more simple to understand, and since they came onboard the performance of critical parts of our main application increased dramatically with a few lines of code instead of the previous 400 or so.

Isn't it amazing how fast applications can go when they stop doing things they don't need to do?

> I always have an hard time with the amount of indirection an average Java developer can reach.

It probably has to do with the "enterprise" culture that tends to err on the side of overgeneralising things and applying far too much abstraction (Java came into being at a time when the OOP fad was gaining significant traction.) The standard library also being in that style encourages this too.

But things like Java4K suggest that it's definitely possible to do a lot in a tiny amount of code.

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