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The Emacs Problem (2005) (sites.google.com)
95 points by swah on Feb 27, 2014 | hide | past | web | favorite | 95 comments



I've noticed two interesting things about Emacs over the years. One is that it's an order of magnitude easier to write tools in Emacs than in other environments. It's also more satisfying, because Emacs lacks the arbitrary hoops you typically have to jump through when writing plug-ins—hoops that come from internal limitations of the host system and give you that annoying "why can't I do it this way" feeling. Emacs, despite its high learning curve, has little such systemic friction. Because making tools is an order of magnitude easier and more satisfying, people do it more, which is why Emacs has so many tools, as well as sophisticated things (e.g. Slime) that show up more rarely elsewhere.

The other thing is that the core of Emacs is a masterful piece of domain-driven design, where the domain is "text editing and windowing". Its conceptual model is clear, simple, and consistent. (Some of the later additions don't have this quality, but fortunately they mostly stay out of the picture.) It has a rich language for its concepts—'buffers', 'text properties', and so on—and uses that language everywhere through documentation and code. This tremendously eases the burden of writing programs that interoperate, because everything is based on the same conceptual model and thus makes sense in the same way. Not all Emacs programs follow identical conventions—far from it—yet it's amazing how close they get, given how many there are. It's Emacs' exemplary domain model, as much as its Lisp character, that creates this conceptual unity.

So while Emacs rightly gets a lot of credit for the technical aspects of its extensibility, we should hear more about the design aspects. Its core design is a masterpiece and ought to be studied as an example of the power of software design itself—something we're mostly still pretty bad at. It might be hard to get that taken seriously, though, since on the surface Emacs is obtuse, clunky, and old. Only when you dive underneath does it become orderly and beautiful.


"The whole nasty 'configuration' problem becomes incredibly more convenient in the Lisp world. No more stanza files, apache-config, .properties files, XML configuration files, Makefiles — all those lame, crappy, half-language creatures that you wish were executable, or at least loaded directly into your program without specialized processing. I know, I know — everyone raves about the power of separating your code and your data. That's because they're using languages that simply can't do a good job of representing data as code. But it's what you really want, or all the creepy half-languages wouldn't all evolve towards being Turing-complete, would they?"

This touches on the core problem with the whole Java ecosystem. The existence of so many tools demonstrates, first, that the underlying technology is insufficiently expressive and, second, that many programmers would rather create tools than applications.

Leaving the second aside, the kinds of tools required for Java development are largely unnecessary in the Lisp world because the language itself is expressive and extensible. You don't need different representations for data and code, separate parsers, and frankly bizarre build systems (coughmavencough).

As ESR, I believe, said "Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it." Unfortunately, it also makes you more aware that things don't have to be as bad as they are in the Java world.

Hopefully s-expressions will be the next aspect of Lisp rediscovered in "modern" programming languages.


I have no difficulty with configuration. I have a reference.conf which provides sensible defaults and is bundled in the jar file:

    cache {
      ttl = 1024
    }
I have an application.conf which belongs on the classpath and contains location specific configuration:

    cache { 
      redis_server = "123.456.789.012:6379"
    } 
In my code, I do this:

    server = getRedisServer(config.getString("cache.redis_server"))
    server.put(key, value, ttl=config.getInt("cache.ttl")

https://github.com/typesafehub/config

Java does have fugly enterprisey frameworks. But it's silly to claim that this is some property of Java.

Incidentally, Python also does "code as data as config" also - see django's settings.py, for example.


You're correct that the particular tools and XML everywhere culture of the Java ecosystem isn't a property of Java itself. However, the verbosity and corresponding lack of expressiveness of Java does, I think, have an impact.

Elegance seems to be much more highly valued in the Lisp world than in the Java world.


All the languages that get wide adoption at the enterprise level suffer from similar issues.

I think it is something that is bound to the enterprise architect culture.


All the enterprise users want the tool to fit their work flow. They don't want to have to change their workflow to fit the tool (no matter how stupidly inefficient their workflow is). This means that the enterprise tool vendors all need to create tools that are highly configurable. In fact, they often have to be customized for each different customer.

This leads to enterprise software vendors trying to write extension/customization languages for their tools. And of course, they almost all do it badly, and they all do it differently. (If you're hearing an echo of Greenspun's tenth law here, well, yes, I think that this is exactly what he was talking about.)


Maybe it'd better to write that as: Only the languages that suffer from similar issues get wide adoption at the enterprise level. (Yet, I don't think that completely captures causality.)

Enterprise architects have a surprisingly big diversity of culture. I'd look first at the process by what enterprises choose their development stacks. It often has little input from architects, developers, testers, or admins.


My employer does enterprise consulting in Fortune 500 companies, the developer stacks and architecture designs we sometimes end up doing, chosen by architects, end up in what is usually called "space station architecture".


I think it comes down to the perceived lack of value to the enterprise of elegance in programming languages.


It's possible in any language, although usually not done with compiled languages, because then the user needs to recompile after every change to the configuration, and distributing as a binary becomes impossible. Usually not, but sometimes: I use the dwm window manager, which is written in C and configured by changing a header file and recompiling. The author points out several advantages to this, including scaring away inexperienced users who would bug him with questions.


You don't need to recompile a typesafe config. Application.conf overrides reference.conf - the latter only provides defaults.

Recompiling a Config.scala file is fast anyway unless you change the type signature.


Consider all of the code that goes into making typesafe config work. Then contrast that with the code necessary to store configuration as sexps.


Yes, typesafe config is an external library rather than using the built in interpreter. That is extra code.

If you wanted to do things in equivalent lisp style, you'd just compile a Config.java/Config.scala file and add it to the classpath. That's only a few extra lines in your ansible script. Your configuration will be statically typedchecked - failure to include a required parameter or including a param of the wrong type will result in a compile failure.

This is unconventional but a very reasonable way to go. At the moment I'm just using typesafe config because it's more or less the standard, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of compiling my config.


> If you wanted to do things in equivalent lisp style, you'd just compile a Config.java/Config.scala file and add it to the classpath.

That's really not equivalent though. With Java and Scala, there's a sharp divide between what's code and what's data. Even if you create a Config.java class, you can still point to some bits and say "that's Java code" and other bits (like primitives or array literals) and say "that's data". Java doesn't know how to treat the code bits like data, or the data bits like code.

This means that there's a whole load of cool stuff that you just can't do with your Config.java that you could with a config file holding Lisp code. For one, you couldn't use macros to easily pre-process your config file. Or, as Yegge pointed out, you couldn't just turn the tag names (in an xml like structure) into functions that transform themselves.

Newer versions of Spring use Java for configuration. As you said, it's pretty cool to be able to compile and type check your config. As cool as that is though, it's not at all the same as putting your config in Lisp code.


In addition to my other comment. One giant difference is creating said file. It is trivial to output files like this from lisp. Not so much for java/scala/whatever.

Consider, if you were to do this the way you are describing. How would you support saving updates to the configuration from within the application?


I think the point is often best regarded as annoyance by lispers that it has taken so much code and time to get back to where they were at the start.


What??? Java is bad because it can't store data as code? (a) That's stupid (b) That applies to every other language in the world which isn't a lisp or scheme.


Python can do it. As I'm sure every interpreted language can.

e.g.

./data.py:

me = "RamiK"

EOF

./code.py

import data

print(data.me)

EOF


I think we can wait a long time (not infinite hopefully) before people let go of complex syntax (order of ~yacc) for smaller, simpler yet more programmatic (sexp, forth).


This discussion is tempting me to dust off my partially finished Scheme-based clone of Ant.


Please do.


next: sexp based systemd



Didn't know it was using scheme. Kudos. I wonder if anyone is using guix + dmd


I use Guix on top of Debian right now, but not dmd. Things are getting closer to the point of having a full Guix system, but we're not there yet.



Let me see if I can channel some of ESR's pomposity: If S-expressions are the answer, you're asking the wrong question.


I don't know why you got downvoted.


Re-reading this after a few years was interesting. At the time it really seemed like the Emacs ecosystem is stagnating but this has changed during the last two years: package managers, crazy good, well maintained extensions (magit, org-mode, flycheck, Gnus), and small language changes. We even had an Emacs-only conference! ;)

Still, elisp is elisp is elisp and there is no getting around that fact. The last Common Lisp rewrite/transformation has, AFAIK, stalled. 'cl is still not welcome in core packages. Just staying with the language and dealing with its quirks has proven very effective and I think this is in a large part due the flexibility of being a Lisp. It might be the wrong language for text-processing, but is the right language for ancient software that tries to stay recent.


I agree, the "emacs problem" is more or less solved by the advent of ELPA, along with external package repositories that mean you don't have get your code into emacs to get it widely disseminated. Emacs Lisp is still Emacs Lisp, but it has closures now, so who cares?


Most programmers these days are quite astonished that anyone would actually still use Emacs. If they realized how much functionality it has, and how powerful its extensibility model is, they'd be ten times as astonished. It's got things that Eclipse may never have, not in a hundred years, and that's no exaggeration.

Thrill me.


All the things cited below are just a matter of libraries, things that I don't find particularly worthy, someone could reimplement them in Eclipse.

What Emacs gets by being an lisp based system, is a pervasive dynamic circularity that, Eclipse (among others) ~is far from enjoying[1]. Anything is a burden in Eclipse, the SDK is a maze of stateful randomly order objects[2]. You needed a book to have a menu action running your code.

In emacs it's one line, very declarative, very composable[3] and you're done. It's pretty and gets out of your way. Everything in Eclipse was over-engineered (plugin repos that takes minutes to actualize, so much for Java jitted static typing performance). The only joy you get is the surprise you actually got the elephant dancing.

This and the target miss. It was a reinvention of Visual Age but it lacks good user interaction basics (edition is very crude, hard to extend, snippets were a new shiny thing in 2007)

And now that elisp has lexical-scoping, you can enjoy functional idioms to the fullest (dash.el) making your eclipse plugin java code (prior 8) even harder to swallow.

[1] at least when I was quite messing with Eclipse (circa 2007) EMF, OSGi, Eclipse plugins, Eclipse SDK running in Eclipse.

[2] how many ways you can get a particular object, accessing things through indexes (myArray[0] is not a stable path to anything)

[3] write a simple function, wrap it in a command, wrap it in a menu or a keybinding. very iterative, layered ..


I've heard Emacs referred to as a Lisp run-time that happens to implement a text editor within it. You can reprogram it within itself without stopping to parse, recompile, or reload any code. This is pretty normal for Lisp-based applications.

One interesting library I've come across is skewer-mode. It depends on a package that implements an asynchronous web server to inject some handy javascript into your browser that opens up a two-way channel with Emacs. I just have to add the href to load the script in my file and then I can open up a javascript REPL in emacs and load code into my browser without refreshing or anything.

I've heard of projects that let you programmatically embed and control webkit instances.

I publish books from emacs.

It's a handy programming environment and not merely a single-purpose application.


I would like to add that customizing/extending Eclipse has become a nightmare. Two of my plugins stopped working in 4.x. Took forever to get a simple Nature and Builder working again under 4.x.

Eclipse's uses XML to declare UI, behavior, expressions. Completely baffling. Terrible docs. Extremely difficult to debug. I was reduced to trial and error (after copying working examples I found).

I've used Eclipse since the early alphas. Its muscle memory.

Scouting the plugin dev stuff of IntelliJ, it doesn't appear to suck so mightily. I've forced myself to start using IntelliJ.

I miss LISP so much I could cry. Even so, I remain wary of metaprogramming. And I very much want to do plugin dev, vs modifying the runtime, for the separation of concerns. I've had to customize all-in-one runtimes and borking the whole runtime with a bad override is not fun to debug.

I've not done emacs plugins, so can't comment or compare.


> I miss LISP so much I could cry. Even so, I remain wary of metaprogramming. And I very much want to do plugin dev, vs modifying the runtime, for the separation of concerns. I've had to customize all-in-one runtimes and borking the whole runtime with a bad override is not fun to debug.

Your concerns are artificial! Let go of your concerns and be free. The hundreds of Emacs users around the world are already doing it. It's great.

It used to be a bit of a wild-west without lexical binding but we have that now and it's going over pretty well. Fewer libraries step on each others' toes as adoption spreads.

We have package management built-in. We have awesome introspection and debugging tools. There are a lot of wonderful built-in packages.

My init file isn't even written in raw elisp anymore. I use a well-documented org file. The amazing org-babel library is bundled in. My init file is written for humans to understand and only incidentally for my editor to execute. It's great.

I only wish more software was designed this way.


> My init file isn't even written in raw elisp anymore. I use a well-documented org file. The amazing org-babel library is bundled in. My init file is written for humans to understand and only incidentally for my editor to execute. It's great.

Came here to say that I do this, too: https://github.com/nhoffman/.emacs.d

Not sure if it was worth the effort, but it was fun!


I do this too. I got the idea from Sacha Chua:

http://sachachua.com/blog/2012/06/literate-programming-emacs...


Ooh, `copy-and-comment` looks super useful. Pulling that one into my own, thanks!


Do you happen t have your dot files up on github by any chance? Would love to take a look at how you setup your init files with org-babel.


The mark ring. The kill ring.

Registers. Each kind has its own use.

Painless keyboard macros. Name, save, edit, insert a counter, make them yours.

Dired. Wdired. The find-*-dired functions.

Org-mode.

Tramp.

These are all built in. Beyond that: a major mode for pretty much any language you can think of. Packages like magit and expand-region also immediately come to mind.


and it all works about the same with a GUI or over ssh in a terminal. I pity the new engineers stuck with Eclipse or whatever (muscle memory doesn't transfer).


For one, libraries that aren't written in Java. :)

Startup times less than seconds.

The dead simple ability to execute any lisp in any editor with a few key presses.

A really good integration with REPL environments.

A somewhat nice way to treat a shell as a REPL.

A mail client I like. (Hard to say that is good for others...)

And, it is overstated, but org-mode really should be looked at. Literate Programming. Task management. It has it all.


Magit. Tramp. Org-Mode. Macros. Ido. Flycheck. Hilock.


And Paredit, emacs.desktop, rmail, slime, w3m mode, make integration, remember mode, instant keyboard macros, color themes, font choices.


Remember mode is like a very small subset of what org-mode does, right?

I wasn't an org-mode believer until a few weeks ago, and then used it to bookmark and track notes for a large software project I had to audit, and it was amazing.


It is awesome.

Remember mode is just a very simple way to remember stuff, and it can be plugged into org mode.

The biggie that I forgot is calc. Just awesome.


I've never used calc. I use rpn, an incredibly simple rpn calculator someone I know wrote in like 1998. Why would I use emacs calc? (Curious).


Well, I didn't know about rpn. Calc the stack based thing, but it might have more features.


Oh, I wasn't arguing, I was just waiting to hear about calc's amazing powers.



Hah! Of course an Emacs calculator would contain a rudimentary CAS. How couldn't it?


Well, for one thing, writing plugins is absolutely smooth in Emacs. This is not true of Eclipse, beyond the thinnest and palest shadow of a doubt. The only way forward for Eclipse to get anything approximating this is, IMO, to build a Clojure front-end for plugins to use.

But design wise, the Eclipse plugin system is awful comparatively. Some of that comes from Java's native lack of extensibility and static nature. Some of it is just plain old design pattern profusion.


Before someone jumps up and says "JSON!", bear in mind that while it's often a better format for moving data, and that the stacktrace example in that post would probably be better as JSON, that JSON does not solve the arbitrary text problem. While I'll take JSON in a heartbeat for most data serialization tasks, if you've really got mixed text, I'll take XML.


Could I trouble you to elaborate on that a bit? I'm not sure I understand why XML would be better than JSON in that case.


I think Steve Yegge (in another post) said it surprisingly well, and simply. Paraphrasing:

If you have more data than text, use JSON. If you have more text than data, use XML/HTML.

Imagine HTML documents encoded in JSON -- in that case JSON would be ugly and annoying to edit. Now imagine (the more common situation of) structured data serialized as XML. That is ugly and annoying to edit.

Use the right tool for the right job. :)


The two are not interchangeable, though. XML allows mixed content, i.e. something like

    <Foo>Some text <Bar>more text</Bar></Foo>
while JSON does not. So there isn't a 1:1 mapping, at least not in the direction XML → JSON (and the other direction only works if you have a schema that defines data types for the document).


One can make a 1:1 mapping from XML to JSON, but it is going to be verbose.

    {
       'tag': 'Foo',
       'children': [
           'Some text',
           {
               'tag': 'Bar',
               'children': ['more text']
           }
       ]
    }
or (hello, LISP)

    ['Foo', ['Some text', ['Bar', ['more text']]]]


Yes, that's what I mean. Both XML and JSON can ultimately encode everything, but they both do indeed have strengths over the other. The problem with XML isn't that it is a "bad thing" that should never be used, the problem is that it become trendy and people started using it for all sorts of things it shouldn't have been, combined with a healthy dose of it being used by a lot of people who didn't even understand XML. (XML isn't that complicated, but there's more to it that "tags, attributes, and text".) When you're in a domain where XML really should be used, you're going to regret trying to jam JSON into that domain.

Also, side observation, that Lisp-like encoding is pretty icky as-is (deciding if something is a tag or text by how deep the array is?), and gets worse if the XML uses attributes.


I think the various XML Schema-ifications don't help either. XML is fairly poorly defined while JSON is pretty precise. This has more to do with a heavy industry of poorly defined, implied semantics atop XML than anything about the raw format, though.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you could get away with:

I don't think your second example is much at all like Lisp and I think to actually achieve something lispy, JSON would need some kind of symbol type, so you can do:

  ['Foo, ['Some Text', ['Bar, 'more text']]]
Though, mix in attributes, and it's just a nightmare.

After all, it's not like:

  '(Foo "Some text" (Bar "more text"))
Or with an admittedly not-very-well-thought-out attribute:

  '(Foo "Some text" (Bar ([] (name "Baz")) "more text"))
For:

  <Foo>Some text <Bar name="Baz">more text</Bar></Foo>
Though there may be a better way of representing attributes....


That's Python. In Lisp it looks like:

'(foo "Some text" (bar "more text"))


Thanks, chubot, I think I see the point now.


My first thought was CDATA, but he could also mean using multiple namespaces or something else I suppose.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/CDATASectio...


CSON! :(


It would be interesting to see lisp adoption coming not as a language but as a serialization format. It seems fairly easy to implement and every language would then have at least the AST part of lisp.


You mean like canonical s-expressions (http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/Sexp.txt)?

One can write a parser for the canonical representation in less than an hour, and a parser for the advanced representation in a weekend.

They are infinitely nicer than XML.


Yes. So why isn't it more common ?


The Clojure folks are doing this with EDN:

https://github.com/edn-format/edn



I think this is a gem of an idea. Like an attack vector.


I find the intro paragraph kind of funny that "Lisp sure beats the hell out of Java for text processing". The reason that I find it funny is that The Stanford Parser/Stanford CoreNLP library is one of the more popular toolkits. Perhaps the status of Lisp text processing is such that it is not needed but Wikipedia has only one Lisp toolkit and quite a few Java ones[1] (Ruby also has 1).

The other thing that I found interesting in this article was the reference to regular expressions as being really useful for text processing but not good for handling tree-based data and I very recently found that the Stanford Parser has tree regular expressions/tregex[2].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_natural_language_pro... [2] http://nlp.stanford.edu/software/tregex.shtml


Simply by having a parser library - and I should mention one meant primarily for natural language parsing - is not indicative of Java being "better" for text processing than lisp. Indeed, one could argue that the mere fact that Java has a library for text processing at all is indicative of lisp being better; after all, the reason lisp does not have an external package could be because it simply does not need one to be just as powerful.


I have been learning Emacs for a few months now, and am loving it (mostly), but I'm going to skip the Emacs issue and focus on his problem with xml.

"Doing this effectively requires your data to be tree-structured."

I have actually been replacing XML with YAML in lots of places. I find the structure much less verbose, and easier to understand, and has features that JSON lacks, and I almost never have problems with delimiter collision. If you haven't yet, I really suggest checking out YAML, but that's just my two cents.


You may also like http://p3rl.org/JSONY which ingy and I came up with as a sort of half way house between YAML and JSON. Note that while that's a perl implementation, the Pegex grammar underlying it should be compilable in other languages.


I wish I could see it compared to something more like Sublime Text. Of course Eclipse & Visual Studio are crappy, we all know that. Nobody is questioning that.

Also, "plugins are super-easy to write" is not much of a benefit to someone who wants to, you know, actually write apps rather than write plugins for the editor in which they will ostensibly one day write an app. Imagine if someone told you to use app X instead of Photoshop because the plugins are easier to write than Photoshop plugins.


>Of course Eclipse & Visual Studio are crappy, we all know that. Nobody is questioning that.

You'd be surprised. They might have clunky editors, but they're far more advanced in dealing with code intelligently (refactoring, AST parsing and transformations, knowledge of structure etc) than ST or Emacs.


In my experience with VS that stuff mostly came from Resharper, a plugin.


> you have a third option [...] you store your text data as a lisp program.

And now anyone with access to a "text" file can run arbitrary code. Or am I missing something?


You are missing that by "reading" the code in Lisp you don't also "execute it", you can just read it and have a nice tree data structure. If you have any reason to eval it, go ahead, but that would be a bad idea for a log or a config file (unless you want a Turing complete configuration or logging DSL... hopefully you know this is a bad idea!)

Most other languages don't have an obvious way to just parse a file of source code without actually executing it: `#include <stdio.h>` or `import mycoolpythonlib` or `require __DIR__ . '/goolib.php'` both parse and execute/compile/link the file, so yes, any config/log file becomes a code file and "arbitrary code" gets executed, but it doesn't have to be this way.

(Now, you have things like "import hooks" and access to the AST in Python for example if you want a tree of the imported file, but nothing "simple" and obvious. And this is the thing actually: as much as people consider Lisps too complex and powerful, the nice thing is how "obvious" and "simple" they make things like this - by just parsing sexp tree and manioulating nested lists instead of inventing a file format like XML with its transformation languages, query languages and so on, and all the tools to support them, and all the man-years (or is it decades? ...centuries?) spend to code and maintain them ...just think how much needless effort could have been spared.)


OK, I must be missing something here...

I get that reading in an log or config file as an S-expression is kind of cool, in a "one ring to rule them all" sort of way, but... what's different between that and reading it in as a DOM or SAX tree?

Is the claim that Lisp's reader is somehow better than DOM or SAX? Easier to use? The resulting trees are easier to walk? Easier to use? What's the actual improvement from doing it the Lisp way?

It seems to me likely that Lisp can import a file into a tree easier (on the coder) than SAX can, but not significantly so. It's not one line versus dozens; more like one line versus a more complex line or maybe two lines.


In a world where XML with DOM and SAX exist, there is no difference. Now imagine that all this and all related technologies (and there are quite a few...) wouldn't even have had to be invented :) ...because you could have just used one parser, that you developed for the language in the first place. Think of the amount of code duplication in all the parsers for all the languages and file formats!

I argue that the point should always be to reduce complexity of the systems and keep them DRY, even at the cost of slightly less functionality and slightly worse performance. Mainly because the introduction of complexity in a system tends to be irreversible in practice (whereas performance can always be better tuned and more functions can be added when/if needed).

Now, in the real world, where the complexity of XML and friends (and this is probably not even the best example) has already been introduced, and where you can't make it disappear because you have so many things that depend on it now, you're right, there is no real benefit of the fact that you can also do it in a simpler way. And most pro-Lisp arguments hit the same walls: yes, you have a more elegant way to do things, but the complexity of the other ways of doing the same thing has already been introduced and it's not going away, so there's usually little benefit for also having simpler ways to do things.


Now you've kick-started me to start looking at 'Land of LISP' which has been sitting on my shelf for a number of years...


Glad to have resparked the interest. But as cute and witty its comics may be, I couldn't stand Land of LISP and abandoned it after ~25%... not "dense" enough for me I guess.

Practical Common Lisp is what grabbed me finally (it's available for free online http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ or you can buy the print), and you'll love it if you more "to the point" and practical examples.


+1 that's one of the most awesome books out there.


And now you have to debug your log files (don't worry, though, the log files log their operation so any bugs will be easy to track down).


Since you can execute the log-log files, you can built a automated test system directly into them. So you can have unit tests which quickly expose any problem. ( I am mostly convinced that this way lies madness, but on the other hand...)


"but on the other hand..."

This is how you can tell that madness lies that way.


If I'm reading the "Beyond Logs" section right, he seems to think that's a feature, not a bug.


A Lisper will think Lisp is a feature and everything not Lisp is a bug, pretty much by definition.


I mean, log files less-so, but having a config file written in a DSL of sorts can be quite a boon. In the ruby world I've found this type of pattern to be quite useful.


> Unless "we" are C++ programmers, in which case "we" like to write 2500-line clones of the Unix 'grep' utility whenever "we" need to do a text search — or so it would seem, from the candidates I've interviewed in the past few months.

Maybe you made the impression of a smart ass interviewer who likes to make up retarded interview exercises, and your interviewees played along. You might want to work on that.


That's probably a pretty shitty interview question, but can it with the "retarded" stuff ok.


Yeah. The assumption of smug superiority on the part of the Lisp folks can be really annoying, but responding in this way just makes you also a jerk. Been there, done that. Just yesterday, in fact. After thinking about it, I decided that I didn't like the way I'd gone about it. It wasn't that the other person was being wonderful - he/she was being a pompous, self-important jerk. But I let that turn me into a jerk, and that's not progress...


Down in the comments, he says that Lisp isn't really ready for production use. He lists some reasons. This was written in 2005; does anyone care to comment on the current situation?


It is performant (I use SBCL), libraries are just about trivial to use now that zach did quicklisp: http://www.quicklisp.org/. I use it for almost everything that I do now. Even pen testing.




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