Think, people, think.
Do you want to spread this message in your countries? This summer when there is an Occupy or 99% demonstration in your country, do you want young men in helmets and masks carrying baseball bats and molotov cocktails to take charge of it? Will you carry a pistol with you at the demonstration to shoot police officers?
If not, then do not distribute this video.
Nothing good comes from the kind of violence that these idiots in Kyiv have started. They sit there at the Maidan with a 24 hour diet of patriotic songs and exhortations to valor and courage. If you wanted to set up a camp to train suicide bombers, this is exactly the kind of propaganda barrage that you would use. These people are brainwashed zombies and they are trying to use YOU to infect everyone else in preparation for the REAL zombie apocalypse.
This is no joke. Just say no to mindless propaganda and learn to THINK FOR YOURSELF. It wouldn't hurt to read some history and learn how much can be achieved by tireless negotiation and compromise to build a common ground and a political party. The Hitler style of party building never ends well.
> Nothing good comes from the kind of violence that these idiots in Kyiv have started.
Pick any revolution and you'll know how any good came out of it. This is the last resort and this is the only way.
You know why this is the only way? Because the dictators or the tyrants didn't grab the power as a result of some misunderstanding. It was well planned for years and then executed with precision. Later, once they had it, they made sure, for decades, that the power stays with them and it goes further and further from the people. Now, I have no love for communism, I consider this best for romantic intellectualism on paper but the worst policy in real life. It's not even about that. It's not even anarchy. It's like fighting for your life, you hit with what you got, and what you can.
So no, dialogue is not going to work. They know they are corrupt, they know they are tyrants, they know they are evil. What are you gonna negotiate with them? All they want is to remain in power (unchecked) and that is exactly what you don't want. Where does that leave you?
Depends: Will the police by the time the next big Occupy protests start already have shot people without reason? Tortured others to make them give up? Well, then I may consider these things if I still have the bravery to be part of such a protest.
They do that in Canada. I've lived here for 3 years and there have been several incidents in the press. Ukraine has no monopoly on this.
Don't get this video as it is, look for additional facts about Ukrainian protests, make your opinion - that is a noble goal of the video, though it should be stressed more for HN.
Propaganda, by nature does not show objective facts and depend on "useful idiots". There are countless examples, parent mention Nazi Germany which had its own propaganda ministerium. In recent history, during the first Gulf war, we could read how Iraqi soldiers pulled infants from incubators in Kuwait City, turned out to be false, but was part of legitimise the war. In the second Gulf war, do you remember secretary Powell's united nations WMD speech?
I think you simply don't understand the situation. You won't understand what it means to have no hope against changing your government, even when the government continues to abuse you, while you do what to change things somehow, and you can't wait decades for it to happen, because the government's abuses are too much too bear.
Americans only pretend they want to change things, by liking stuff on Facebook, and then they just accept the situation and live with with, because they are too lazy to even go to a protest anymore.
Until Americans learn how to do a protest like what happened with the Arab Spring, and is happening in other countries, I think you need to stop teaching others about how to protest against their governments, deal?
Even the measures taken against them where mostly in accordance with civil rights, even making unusual allowances for destroying other people's property. The actual violent incidences are nothing compared to the Ukrainian situation.
No sign of any civil rights there...
Imagine this type of peaceful protest in any western capital and those protesters would be now peaceful in jail.
I tried to really dig into the affair, but it's too complicated with both sides corrupt (like it typically happens in the former USSR), Putin blaming EU for everything while seeding billions to the Ukrainian government, non-transparent government-opposition talks, news sites hunting for sensations... It feels like it's impossible to make an objective (or close to it) idea about the whole situation. And this video isn't helping one bit.
As much as I hate the current Ukrainian government, I'm not sure they have anything better. Pretty horrible situation.
It seems that Kiev, the capital, happens to be in a region that is dominated by Ukrainian-speaking people, who feel closer to (Western/Central) Europe than to Russia. Therefore, a lot of protests are happening in the capital, which makes it easy for the media to paint a picture of an entire country with a pro-European bent in revolt against its pro-Russian government. That narrative conveniently ignores the huge pro-Russian part of the country.
Things would play out very differently if Kiev were in the pro-Russian part of the Ukraine.
Kiev was settled by a group that, although they were linguistically part of Northern rather than Eastern Europe, gave their name to Russia.
Fun fact, this group also effectively began the Russian Orthodox tradition.
I am referring of course to the Kievian Rus, for whom Russia was named, but who were basically to the Russians what the Normans were to the French....
So why can't the Ukrainians solve their problems the EU way?
And I don't think that if you talk with Belgians many will agree that their model is in any way, shape or form to be used as a model for other countries.
The current protests erupted when one of the first steps along that path was openly scuttled by Russia applying a huge amount of financial leverage.
It is true that only half of Ukraine wants to join the west, but it's also clear that this is a clash between Russian interests and that of the European-minded population in Ukraine; not with EU/US in any significant way.
There is a lot of schadenfreude going on of course because it's a huge blemish on Sochi as Putin's PR offensive and Western media are eager to rub it in as much as they can.
Ironically enough, according to rumours, this all started because Putin ordered Ukraine's president to 'fix this' before the Olympics started and the unsuccessful police crackdown started the current chain of escalations.
Is that not correct?
(I did not read the article, just looked at the charts, which look to be in agreement with my personal experience).
I would say that about 20% of the very east part of the country is largely pro Russia, as well as most of Crimea. But even the pro-Russia people don't necessarily think Ukraine should join Russia, almost everyone want's the corruption to stop, as you have pointed out. And I have yet to find a single Ukrainian, Russian speaking or not, who would have anything good to say about Putin. Of course, in most parts of Russia, outside Moscow, you will rarely find anyone who doesn't outright hate that bustard.
I think most people want both Yanukovych and Putin out of their country. So maybe you are right, not every one is pro-EU, but most I would say are unti-Putin.
What I want to know is why can't Kyiv negotiate its way into the EU in stages, step by step, and at each stage the agreement would be small enough that it could be explained to the people of Ukraine and they could vote in a referendum based on the facts, rather than some fantasy ideal of "sign document, get rich".
I am very curious about the punitive aspect of it though.
I've never heard of it and unless it's hidden deep inside the treaty I also can't seem to find any punitive measures there.
Do you have any pointers on that?
Don't get me wrong, the government is far from being a good one and there surly are reasons to demonstrate. But it's elected and the OSCE said it was a fair election overall .
Well, in the end I must agree to Aoyagi: this is one side of a complex situation and although it is undoubtedly touching, it's not the whole truth behind the current situation.
Well, the protesters can't exactly afford highly sophisticated weapons made to inflict pain but not (too much) damage. They don't have the luxury of spending tax money on expensive equipment. The only reason there are rubber bullets is because they probably don't find it in their self-interest to use something more heavy at the current time. The government can slaughter its own people in a matter of hours if they want to, and face no resistance from some pathetic molotov cocktails.
Maybe the video is one-sided (I haven't seen it yet), but comparing the two sides in the way you do does not make any sense to me.
Also, I think it'd be useful to think about how western countries would handle this kind of "protest".
So take it with a grain of salt, since it seems unclear sponsors are learning to manipulate these kinds of protests into their own agendas. With some measure of success I would also add.
-- George Orwell
There are places on earth where mere non-violent non co-operation just can't work. Basically because no one knows what you are doing, why you are doing and what your actual story is.
If the opponent force is simply too overwhelming, powerful and has too much sway. Non violent non co operation doesn't help much.
But what happened? Oh right. Peaceful protest brought down the Soviet block.
But every instance of non-violent non-co operation(Lets call it with the name Gandhi gave to it - ahimsa/satyagraha) works only because of the opponents get weak after a point of time. Indian Independence movement worked because in the course of WW2 the British lost the gumption they had earlier to control a nation as big as India. They were running out of resources, ideas and means to stay in India anymore. Gandhi's movement gave British too much bad across the world. Plus WW2 and WW1 had really taken a toll on the British. So it was a mixture of all these things + Gandhi's movement that make ahims/satyagraha work.
I guess its the same with USSR too? Didn't this whole cold war thing come too heavy on the Soviets? The way I understand they were in deep financial crisis and were facing an imminent defeat in Afghanistan.
They did a trial run with Solidarity in Poland (not coincidentally the home country of the pope at the time) and then rolled it out on a larger scale after that succeeded.
Assad in Syria actually used Gandhis example to win in the end: He made sure the most rational, less radical and especially the non-violent opposition was crushed first.
All these "ethnic raids" came from basically "nowhere", maybe they were also encouraged by the regime, and then this contributed to more violence. End result: No opposition that can effectively be supported from the outside, and vanishing sympathy or compassion for the most massive genocide in recent history, much less any hope of peace.
In Cuba, on the contrary, Castro is facing a new, well organized and well disciplined opposition, and is finding it ever harder to attack them.
Basic point here: The stronger force has an advantage when the weaker opponent resorts to hatred and violence. That is why in China, Turkey, Syria and Ukraine we see the government's media outlets put a huge effort into portraying any dissidence as violent and hateful...
This looks on the outside very successful regarding suppressing Sukarno. After all the Dutch succeeded in keeping him contained until the Japanese arrived. However in a closer look you see a slow and steady development of a network of support that Sukarno built in Sumatra while in exile, which was used to support his efforts on his return to Java.
So I am not sure it is so clear.
Another interesting example might be Gorbachev in Russia. Here's someone who was quite clearly a communist and a Marxist, who, nonetheless, was not above critiquing the existing Soviet system in relation to the West and in so doing exposed cracks that caused the whole system to collapse. Gorbachev of course built on Khrushchev in this regard, but it shows that what is important is the alliance and solidarity, and to the extent that non-violence is conducive to that (and it usually is) it usually is helpful.
I feel everyone gets a temporary jolt of validation from being voted up. However, it should be in exchanged for adding value (being insightful, interesting, useful, funny).
It's just "Click here if you want the good guys (us) to win!", and people are clicking. Amazing. And people are wondering why long-form journalism is dying.
EDIT: HN is not a journalistic site. So don't worry about the decline of journalism in this context.
Personally, I think it is very legitimate to appeal to sentiments, because of the three means of persuasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric_%28Aristotle%29) pathos foremost agitates people to actions. And sometimes, it is necessary to act (and inform the public). That you disagree with others on this very issue is no reason for insult.
The problem with videos like this is that they provide no context. It doesn't tell you a damn thing about what's going on. It's a video of a pretty girl shot with a DSLR with a shallow depth of field. Is this even shot in the Ukraine? No idea. Could be a studio pretty much anywhere.
I don't know what's going on in Kiev. This wiki article is all I could find that is well cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_up,_Ukraine!
I can recut this video and replace it with scenes from Los Angeles, Oakland, Chicago or New York. Just show some clips of police brutalitiy and say, "Our politicians are corrupt."
Obviously things have escalated now with many deaths, but these narratives of government thugs vs. brave people, or police vs. right wing elements, grow tiresome. This is not like Syria, or Occupy. It is a significant, representative portion of the population demonstrating against the government. Plenty of propaganda from both sides, though one should remember that the Ukrainian (and Russian) governments have much more experience with that than the opposition.
For me it would be enough to get scared.
The media is full of propaganda and one-sided stories. I like to see more coverage of how people think aside those confined protest areas!
There's no question that this video is propagandistic in nature. Both sides release propaganda materials. The only reason you don't see the other ones is that they're in Russian and therefore of little interest in the Western media. We should definitely think the video as little more than another attempt at manipulation, but a lot of skepticism of another kind is unwarranted.
> Do you want to spread this message in your countries? This summer when there is an Occupy or 99% demonstration in your country, do you want young men in helmets and mass carrying baseball bats and molotov cocktails to take charge of it? Will you carry a pistol with you at the demonstration to shoot police officers?
It's easy to describe the occupants of the Maidan in these terms:
> They sit there at the Maidan with a 24 hour diet of patriotic songs and exhortations to valor and courage. If you wanted to set up a camp to train suicide bombers, this is exactly the kind of propaganda barrage that you would use. These people are brainwashed zombies and they are trying to use YOU to infect everyone else in preparation for the REAL zombie apocalypse.
On the other hand, quickly conducting a poll among them would probably let you find quite a few who are equally disgusted by how the "Occupy" movement turned out. Ukraine isn't exactly a democratic country; people get arrested and beaten just for standing in the wrong place, and they are genuinely outraged that peaceful protest has led them to nothing but leg pain.
I wouldn't want yong men in helmets carrying baseball bats and Molotov cocktails down my street, either. That being said, if you stroll around at an Occupy demonstration, you're probably bound to find more people frustrated that they're living in their cars than car owners in Ukraine. It's a place where, if you get pepper-sprayed by the police, you don't end up giving horrible testimonies in the media while the policeman gets a modest disciplinary sanction. You get beaten and tortured, Western media gives you a pat on the back, the policeman gets a promotion. How exactly do you expect people to deal with this non-violently?
> "THE POLICE IS READY TO SHOOT". But she won't say that it's with rubber slugs or that the protesters are throwing molotovs and shooting fireworks (which can deal nasty damage). Rocks are implied, I think.
You also fail to mention the tear gas and the grenades. More than half of last night's dead are civilians. Unless they're really fucking confused and throwing rocks at each other (which, given their steady resistance, they probably aren't), the police is dealing some fairly nasty damage, too.
> But how did this president became elected? The girl in the video speaks about dictatorship. But is it one? It bugs me, that we do not hear the voices of those in support of the current government. We always get to see the Maidan and maybe some other confined protests in other cities. In the media, it looks like the whole country is uprising. But that can't be the whole truth. If the government has no support at all, it would not still be in power.
This is simply not the way it works. Yes, it's the way it works in the US, in Germany, in UK, in Iceland -- countries that have a democratic tradition of hundreds of years or even more.
Given enough interest and control, people win elections by rigging and stay in power by tight group binding. If the Prime Minister, the President, and the Ministers of Internal Affair and Defense are on good terms, how exactly do you think relinquishing power happens? People sit around in a circle and think hm, maybe we should step down?
Here's my opinion - there are tons video's how truck move in police. How footballs fanatics throw molotov to cops. Now they shoot from guns. This is not "only way" - this is just another one opposition politics game who want grab the power.
It is time for EU to do some real actions (not sanctions...). They should propose some real alternative options, even for Yanukovich - maybe a full EU membership or something similar, bit more than just Association Agreement.
If it was Bosnia or something with a small population, it would be doable. It's political and economic suicide for the EU to offer full membership on a whim like this.
The article writer could at least describe the situation after the video player...
What is it about?
It's a young woman talking about the situation in Ukraine.
The only reason the US and by proxy, the EU cares about the Ukraine is so they can put another load of Patriot Missiles there; to protect Europe from Iran and North Korea of course, it has nothing to do with gaining a strategic advantage over Russia.
The cold war never ended.
The biggest group of protesters are all right-wing and not at all want to belong to Russia, if you ask the opinion of the other part of the Ukranian people you will hear different stories, we only get to see the destruction and get to hear the pro-right-wing protesters. The statement that everything will be "better" when they will belong to Europe is also a misconception. A lot of people in Ukraine live of a pension that ranges around 100 - 200 Euro per month, now don't think these people can afford food from the neighborhood supermarket, prices are too high, they can only survive by going to markets and buying from farms. Imagine what happens when they will join Europe, prices will inflate, pensions will not go up because there is no money for it ... Etc... There's much more behind it ...
Nobody cares about the people, it's all about control and resources.
Russia cared enough to provide several billion dollar relief loans and a 30% discount on gas prices to cancel the negotiations with the EU.
The EU didn't offer any financial aid, because they didn't care particularly much for Ukraine joining the EU.
Joining the EU is probably the worst thing that can happen to Ukraine. Only high performing nations benefit from the EU, everyone else gets screwed by the regulations.
I remember reading an article that had certain people expressing outrage over the fact that Russia would scrap its free trade agreement with Ukraine if they join the EU. They didn't seem to realise that if Russia didn't do this, the russian markets would be flooded with cheap crap from the EU.
This is not the whole story. Broke in their time nations like Ireland or Portugal benefited immensely from joining the EU. While they are not anywhere near "high performance" still, participating in common labor and trade market with enforced regulations standards pulled them out of mud.
Also let's not forget that the alternative is integration into Russian zone of influence. You can doubt the merits of EU, but life as a Russian colony would not bring prosperity (let alone justice) to Ukraine, no matter how many petrodollars circulate in the metropole. Ukrainans will always be an afterthought.
And now they get expensive, quality stuff from China and Bangladesh indeed, makes sense.
That's like saying that USA people are dumb MacDonald eathing jerks because they have allowed NSA to happen.
A good discussion generally consists of points and opinions. There, I said nothing too.
OK your name contains "emo" so maybe that's why you don't get it but that's ad hominem from my side.
Of course the people of Ukraine have visions and dreams about their future. What you are seeing in this video though, or on any western media (and eastern media for that matter) is not indicative of what the Ukrainian people actually want. Jumping onto either bandwagon only because of what you read in your twitter feed is just stupid.
Your first comment is about US only and doesn't mention Russia. You did that only with your last comment "(and eastern media for that matter)".
Well, get back to your geography homework and have a look where the Ukraine is located...
"The Aegis BMD system is the linchpin of the Obama administration's plan for a missile defense umbrella in Europe intended to protect U.S. forces and NATO allies from Iranian short- and medium-range ballistic missiles."
Do your homework. (although I did mislabel the missile system, its aegis, not patriot that are being used here)
Well, I'm European and you can't expect me to know details about every military protection plan from the US administration (which are surely a lot), can you?
Googeling it wouldn't have returned useful information with two wrong facts I guess ;)
...and by the way: your link said nothing about the Ukraine! :D :D So again, look at google maps!
edit: as for nothing being said about ukraine, well......America hasn't gotten the Ukraine under its grips yet? Do I have to spell this out to you? seriously man.
The fact that my Ghostery plugin had registered 16 trackers (including Buzzfeed.com) on thoughtcatalog.com (a "experimental" media group based in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, not NYC, not Brooklyn but Williamsburg, Brooklyn). Brief browse through their headlines runs the gamut of my typical FB newsfeed a la Buzzfeed about threesome sex, expensive college education, relationship fidelity and women's body image that exploit the insecure and the well-meaning.
The copy reads like the typical HuffPo copy on the Sochi Olympics (the current "hot-button" issue on "homosexual propaganda laws" but no coverage on Chechnya and Russian oppression on the Norther Caucus where we are "partners against Terrorism" now) /China-Tibet issue (where we celebrate the "peaceful and oppressed" Tibetans" but not the similarly oppressed Muslims in Xinjian)/Arab Spring (where we celebrate the initial "Spring of Democracy" and now remain mum on the chaos that ensues in Libya/Egypt/Syria).
Brave New World got it right. Our media has become the soma and reality MTV to validate our own prejudices and tug at our indignation and emotions.