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What exactly are they trying to license these bootcamps as? They are basically job placement agencies with training included, right?

This is a bit off topic, but the prices that they command seem ludicrous. $1k a week or so, for most of them. I know that a person attending stands to get a high paying job, but 10k seems like a lot.

I don't know, 10k compared to 100k+ at a proper four year college seems fair to me

If you are truly paying 100k for a 4 year (120 weeks) university education, then it works out to be $833 per week. My education at an in-state university cost far less than that. Claiming that "bootcamps" are superior in value or rigor is mendacious.

Except you don't have to attend bootcamp for 120 weeks.

It definitely cost me much less than 100k to go to a proper college, and I got more than 60 weeks of instruction.

Did you get a job at week 65?

But anyway this is not the issue, if you pay to learn something so what? What does it haves to be regulated? Is not like food where you may get intoxicated if its bad, is not like cars where you may kill someone if you don't know how to drive; if you need to certify the quality of your employees you can always ask for a college degree and that's it, doesn't mean that everyone haves to ask for it.

There's a long history of fraud in education.

Quoting from the article, "it would be relatively easy for a fly-by-night operation to advertise a developer bootcamp, collect tuition, and then provide low-quality education — or skip town before the courses were even set to begin. Even if the current crop of hacker boot camps are perfectly ethical, there’s no guaranteeing the integrity of future entrants into the market."

Your own statement reflects undue optimism. Who says that 1) you actually make it to week 65, that 2) you get a job, and 3) it's not a ringer job paying sub-market rates from a firm which pays recruitment fees to the school?

The article links to http://www.fastcompany.com/3023456/become-an-ios-developer-i... , which goes into some details about the negatives. And positives.

Markets equilibrate slowly with asymmetric information, which is the case with schools. Regulations done right can prevent malicious people from taking advantage of a temporal lag.

It's a long history of fraud in human history; education is not a special case.

>there’s no guaranteeing the integrity of future entrants into the market.

There is no guarantee in any market; you survive by the product you provide, you can sell food that tastes bad (but is not rotten) and then change the name of it any amount of times you want, but without appealing to the market you just end up broke.

Is the same way here; if you don't even give the classes that's a scam and if it happens to you then you sue them; if they are "low-quality" you just give everyone involved bad reviews and go on with your life.

Walmart sells millions of very "low-quality" stuff, but people knows that "you get what you pay for", but even if they suddenly increased the prices on their low-quality stuff they would still be legal. Why is different with education?

You need another ">" in the ">" above - I quoted someone else. I was pointing out that the article already covered some of the reasons for regulation, which means the previous poster (that is, you) didn't actually understand the article and its references. I gave one quote. There are others. I've repeated a couple more below.

I myself wouldn't use the word guarantee this way, as you rightly point out, but to be fair, it's part of a hypothetical.

It looks like you didn't understand the last part of my response. It takes time for a feedback mechanism to operate, and in some fields that asymmetric information and time lag can be exploited in ways that are well known, generally considered unethical, and more easily addressed through regulation than lawsuits.

The article even gives examples; of companies which "make bold claims about alumni making six figure salaries upon graduation" but omit that that is a rarity, and "boast of high placement rates" but omit to say that "many students either quit or are kicked out, which inflates placement numbers."

These are obvious cases of information asymmetry, and the companies aren't even lying, so what is there to sue about? Misleading advertising?

Plus, it's disproportionally likely that students will not have the resources to make a legal challenge on their own, or that a lawsuit would be effective. It would require a class action lawsuit, which is more complicated, more expensive, and it's more likely that the school would declare bankruptcy, and the organizers start another school. (Just like some West Virginia water polluting company I've heard about.)

Wal*Mart and the goods they sell are subject to a lot of regulation. I don't understand your point.

Everyone else makes false claims and get away with it; fox news does it all the time, and they get paid for it (commercials)

>It looks like you didn't understand the last part of my response. It takes time for a feedback mechanism to operate, and in some fields that asymmetric information and time lag can be exploited in ways that are well known, generally considered unethical.

That seems to imply that value at some point is completely established and that couldn't farther from the true; this is the same world where you can legally sell dog-haircuts for thousands of dollars, doesn't mean it is a scam or that we have to create a government regulation for dog fashion standards.

About walmart: No they are not; clothes lost their color and integrity pretty quickly; their towels stain everything, etc. Just read their reviews... pretty much anywhere.

I don't understand. Are you arguing that Fox News should be regulated? I'm not. There's no large information asymmetry there, as surely those who can pay $10,000+ for an advertisement know what they are getting into. (You as the viewer are not the customer.)

Or are you arguing that nothing should be regulated?

If the clothes you bought from Wal-Mart violated consumer protection regulations, then sue them. If you think there should be laws in place, then talk to your legislative representatives.

(Edit: Wal-Mart is subject to OSHA, the FSA issues food product regulations, its money order business is regulated by the FDIC, and so on. You confuse, I think, "some regulation" with "completely regulated.")

There's a long history behind the reason for regulations, stretching back to the muck racking journalism of the 1800s. Do you disagree with all of it?

And I really don't understand your "dog fashion standards" issue. Where's the information asymmetry? Where's the time lag which can be exploited by unscrupulous dog hair dressers?

The lag doesn't matter, the value of anything depends on how much the sellers can charge for it and still be able to sell it.

This regulation or no regulation? It would be like asking if I like women with big eyes or women with no eyes; of course there is a middle ground but this is erring on the wrong side by a lot.

> Quoting from the article, "it would be relatively easy for a fly-by-night operation to advertise a developer bootcamp, collect tuition, and then provide low-quality education — or skip town before the courses were even set to begin."

That's why these bootcamps only charge students after they complete the course and get an industry job.


Quoting that Fast Company article: "With the support of his wife, he sold his 2004 Volvo for the amount of tuition, and his family of four in the suburbs made do as a one-car household."

Quoting http://www.hackbrightacademy.com/faq : Tuition is $15,000. If you receive and accept a full-time job offer from one of the companies in our network then we will refund $3,000 of your tuition. If the program doesn't meet your expectations in the first 2 weeks, we'll give you your money back (less your down payment).

Yes, there are some which do as you suggest. Quoting http://www.appacademy.io/#p-program : App Academy does not charge any tuition. Instead, you pay us a placement fee only if you find a job as a developer after the program. In that case, the fee is 18% of your first year salary, payable over the first 6 months after you start working.

But certainly not all do as you believe they do.

I've never seen a bootcamp/code school that doesn't require payment up front or at least in installments that finish before the course does.

There's a long history of fraud in every area of human enterprise. Doesn't mean we need to regulate everything.

Agreed. And I never said we did. I said that markets with a high degree of asymmetric information and long equilibration times need good regulation to prevent likely but culturally unacceptable practices.

I know you were trying to make a point, but actually, I got a job my the summer before my Junior year working in a lab on campus. The school had great resources to match people with interesting on-campus positions that aligned with their major. I ended up working at the lab after graduating for several years.

> if you pay to learn so what?

I agree.

> Why does it have to be regulated?

I'm curious to know as well. Certainly there are reasons to regulate, if there is some existing system and these schools somehow violate existing policies. It's not clear why they need to be licensed.

> Is not like food ...

Regulation happens for more reasons than just personal harm. Obviously some argue that it shouldn't, even if it does cause harm :)

> like cars ...

A big reason for regulation isn't safety, it's taxation, which helps pay for things like roads and maintenance.

I worked before and after having a college degree. Simply not including it on my resume worked fine, and as long as my resume was filled with all the things I knew/was skilled at, my degree or lack of only came up as an afterthought. So I agree with you on the last point.

Why is that ludicrous?

I said it seems ludicrous. It just tastes bad, but since you asked, I decided to approximate the cost per unit/hour, and it actually costs about the same as California's public community colleges, so I guess this isn't crazy.

All the same, California's community college prices are kind of out of hand if you ask me, but since you asked, I guess I take it back, but lacking any actual accreditation or guarantee, it's unclear how valuable such programs are in the long run.

California's community colleges pay their lecturers.

Definitely not enough if you ask me :)

That said, I didn't realize that some (many?) boot camps were using volunteers as instructors. Who would volunteer for such a thing?

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