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nawitus 270 days ago | link | parent

I'm against these, because I'm against gender discrimination. Gender discrimination means that one gender is treated differently from another.

It's also interesting to know whether transwomen will be allowed. Some radical feminists only accept 'born as women' to their conferences. And if transwomen are accepted, what's their definition of that.



neilk 269 days ago | link

Since you are against this conference in principle, I have a feeling you're only bringing up the trans issue to cause trouble.

But, you're right, it has been an issue at some conferences. So it's worth clarifying.

The Ada Initiative does not represent all women in tech, but they do help organizers with codes of conduct and other policies for female-friendly conferences. It might be good for jl and YC to consult with them. Their policies are inclusive: http://adainitiative.org/faq/#how-does-the-ada-initiative-de...

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loceng 269 days ago | link

Or maybe they're bringing it up because it would be gender discrimination and would be hypocritical?

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imgabe 269 days ago | link

Words have multiple meanings. Yes "to discriminate" does mean to treat one thing differently than another, to discern among various alternatives. That's not the context discrimination is being used in here. In that sense, having separate bathrooms is also "gender discrimination". Are you against that as well?

In this context discrimination refers to a systemic tendency to undervalue a particular class of people for reasons unrelated to their ability to contribute. That is a situation worth reversing. Don't deliberately interpret words in the wrong context just to be a pedant.

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

>That's not the context discrimination is being used in here. In that sense, having separate bathrooms is also "gender discrimination". Are you against that as well?

Yes. And gender separated sports leagues. I believe people shouldn't be defined by their gender, which is a problematic term in the first place.

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loceng 269 days ago | link

Indeed, it just creates and reenforces the dichotomy.

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rimantas 269 days ago | link

having separate bathrooms is not discrimination. Having bathroom only for one gender would be.

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imgabe 269 days ago | link

Again, there are two different meanings of the word discriminate. Having different bathrooms is discriminating between the genders. Treating them differently. Having bathrooms for one gender and not the other would be discriminating against that gender.

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rimantas 269 days ago | link

No, there are two word, discrimination and segregation. Men having a bathroom and women not (or vice versa) would be discrimination: one have bathroom, other don't. In having separate bathrooms men have a bathroom and women have a bathroom, no discrimination there.

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imgabe 269 days ago | link

No, this not even something we have to argue about. Simply look up the definition of the word:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination

This conference is about the first definition, not the third.

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dragonwriter 269 days ago | link

Segregation on an axis requires discrimination on the same axis (if you don't make distinctions, you can't separate.)

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rimantas 269 days ago | link

Treating differently by "distinctions" is discrimination, not just making them. Otherwise the whole concept of gender is discriminatory.

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dragonwriter 269 days ago | link

> Treating differently by "distinctions" is discrimination, not just making them.

Segregation is treating people differently by the axis on which segregation occurs.

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limedaring 270 days ago | link

> Our goal with this conference is to inspire women to start (or hang in there with!) a startup through the insights and experiences of those who have done it already. If you're a woman interested in learning more about startups, I encourage you to apply.

How is that discriminatory? You can't argue that women are widely represented in entrepreneurship (heck, it's an even smaller percentage than in development.) Startup School has always been 99% men. I'm personally super excited about a conference with women who've dealt with the issues I have as a female founder.

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

It's discrimination by definition. Some may claim that certain kind of discrimination is positive (e.g. positive discrimination itself). I'm personally objected to all kinds of discrimination, "positive" or not.

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limedaring 269 days ago | link

I think you should revisit your definition of discrimination. Discrimination is treating someone unfavorably or with prejudice due to their gender. This event is for female founders and promoting them. There is nothing against men, against male founders, or the sex in general.

Just because something is for one subject does not mean it's against the opposite.

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

Definitions of words are a) subjective b) tools for communication and c) political. I think my definition of discrimination is better, because there's no objective definition of 'good discrimination' versus 'bad discrimination'. Defining discrimination to only mean 'bad discrimination' is then futile, and doesn't really help with communication. In fact, those endless debates of what is and what is not discrimination would be replaced with slightly more constructive debates of where discrimination might be justified and where not.

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rimantas 269 days ago | link

Just because something is not against one subjets doest not mean that there is no discrimination.

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jkrems 269 days ago | link

So only treating the sick is discrimination against healthy people?

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hythloday 269 days ago | link

"I'm against gender discrimination"

Do you believe that no gender discrimination in favour of men occurs in the rest of the industry? Are you against any particular act of discrimination that you happen to witness, or are you stating a preference for a system in which no discrimination occurs?

(I, too, am against gender discrimination, which is why I am for these.)

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detcader 269 days ago | link

"Discrimination" is a red herring. We practice discrimination all the time, it can be a good thing. Using it like it's a dirty word is insulting to the intelligence of the organizers here.

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oskarth 269 days ago | link

> I'm against these

It's not a football team. It's a conference that someone else organizes. Leave it alone if you don't like it.

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

I'm against many things that should be legal and that I don't organize. Just because someone has the legal right to hold a discriminatory conference, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to criticize it.

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MartinCron 269 days ago | link

Please stop. Bringing up radical feminism in this context is just trolling. There is absolutely nothing radical in what they're doing here.

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scott_s 269 days ago | link

1. The invitation form ask for gender, implying men are allowed to attend.

2. If we assume that an imbalance in a system is self-enforcing, then it is unlikely to remedy itself - even if we remove what initially caused the imbalance, because it is self-enforcing.

3. I don't think you brought up the transgender issue in good faith. The organizers of this event have given no indication that they align themselves such a fringe group.

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Aloisius 269 days ago | link

> I'm against these, because I'm against gender discrimination. Gender discrimination means that one gender is treated differently from another.

As a society, we accept discrimination in order to build a better and more equitable future.

SV prides itself on being a meritocracy, but it isn't a perfect one. People were born with money and connections have it much easier than the average schmo off the street. But certain minorities in our field* also have the added burden of having to battle pervasive stereotypes that sometimes borders on downright hostility on top of a near complete lack of a support network.

In order to become a more perfect meritocracy, we should strive to level the playground for everyone, but we can't easily tilt the playground such that average schmo's are on equal standing with people born into SV royalty, but we can make some minor shifts to help overcome the burden of being stereotyped because of what you look like.

So we accept some discrimination. And we benefit from it. The fact of the matter is that having diversity in startups is A Good Thing and increases the odds of success (unless your plan is to only sell your product to people who look/act/think just like you).

* Yes, women are the majority in the world, but for this and all discussions, it is important to limit ourselves to a field; in this case, tech startups. I would be just as supportive of a conference/support group/etc. for promoting and helping male child care workers (95% female) to overcome the stereotype of men being unfit for child care.

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Ambrosia 269 days ago | link

jeez what's with all of these MRAs coming out everywhere when somebody tries to do something for women? this shit happens every single time

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MartinCron 269 days ago | link

I think it's just an underlying insecurity and zero-sum-game thinking, basically "anything intended to help women must also hurt men".

A part of me feels pity for them, after all, they're fighting a doomed fight, but it doesn't excuse their behavior.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Men always become very nervous when women try to have their own spaces, talk amongst themselves, organize into groups, etc. It's like reality can't pass the Bechdel Test.

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theorique 269 days ago | link

The opposite is also true.

Women (and some men) tend to be very suspicious of male-only spaces because they think that said men are plotting to reestablish the Patriarchy. Not really, though.

Sometimes it's nice to have a safe space where you don't have to police yourself for the opposite sex and risk being misunderstood by them. I don't begrudge women their own space, and I would hope that women, feminist and otherwise, would not begrudge men theirs.

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detcader 266 days ago | link

"they think that said men are plotting to reestablish the Patriarchy"

hahahaha you have no idea what I'm talking about or what you're talking about

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theorique 265 days ago | link

Try to establish a club, organization, or group for men only, and you'll face suspicion and criticism from women.

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aaren 269 days ago | link

Some men!

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detcader 269 days ago | link

More like "men as a political class." I'm male, and I knew I was inviting this comment. To me saying "some men" is like giving the "good men" a cookie, when really all men should be concerned about these kinds of things, by virtue of being human.

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mcantelon 269 days ago | link

>To me saying "some men" is like giving the "good men" a cookie

To me, saying "some men" is being precise with language and not falling into generalization. "Men", in common usage, refers to individuals that are male, not a "political class".

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hythloday 269 days ago | link

English does not discriminate well between the universal quantification (∀; all men are) and existential quantification (∃; some men are) when quantification is indefinite (men are). It's often unambiguous; saying "men are well-represented in the boardrooms of US companies" would not be taken as implying that a number of men close to 165 million (or 3.5 billion) crammed into American boardrooms. Where it's not, it's far better to assume that the speaker is using the existential qualifier, as universal quantification is usually spelt out as a rhetorical feature ("ALL MEN benefit from the patriarchy" is far stronger than "MEN benefit from the patriarchy").

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mcantelon 269 days ago | link

That's a very good breakdown of usage of the word and I'd forgotten about the indefinite usage. In this particular usage, it included the word "always" ("men always"). If someone states "men always love sports" then I'd interpret that to be equivalent in meaning to "all men love sports".

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aiiane 269 days ago | link

"some" people always seem to jump up to make this pedantic argument when men are generalized about, and yet somehow talking about women as a general group never seems to invoke the same.

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mcantelon 269 days ago | link

Ah. Criticizing the intentional use of sloppy generalizations is "pedantic" and sloppy generalizations are sometimes used against women so this justifies the use of sloppy generalizations against men. Got it.

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asdasf 269 days ago | link

What's with people wanting to dismiss opinions they don't like with poorly thought out strawmen?

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bovermyer 269 days ago | link

I would think that gender equality would trump gender discrimination. Or are you saying that inequality is acceptable in the face of attempts to take corrective action?

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danilocampos 270 days ago | link

> Some radical feminists only accept 'born as women' to their conferences. And if transwomen are accepted, what's their definition of that.

Really. That's interesting. I know... a few feminists 'round these parts who might be characterized "radical." Can't think of anyone getting their hate on against trans women. And I don't know why you would raise such a specter of exclusion with no basis.

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hythloday 269 days ago | link

Radical Feminism (one concept) is somewhat equivalent to separatist feminism, which takes it as axiomatic that women making decisions under the influence of men are not free to make decisions (they're the "all sex is rape" school). Given that, they historically[0] tended to see trans women as male invaders of a female space, which makes them de facto transphobic. Transphobia is not a typical property of feminists who happen to be radical in their views - if anything, it's the opposite (radical feminism is a second-wave school which had its peak in the 70s).

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Not all people who call themselves radical feminists believe that "all PIV is rape" (notice how you equate sex with penis-in-vagina intercourse). You forgot to provide a link to that [0], I'll give you one: http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...

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hythloday 269 days ago | link

I didn't mean to imply (and I don't believe) that all radical/separatist feminists believe that, but that the idea originated in that movement. I don't equate PIV with sex but didn't want to add jargon to what was meant to be a 101 post. Hence quotes.

Thanks for your help disambiguating.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Any time. I believe there's a high amount of nuance to the writings, activism, and ideas referred to by the phrase "radical feminist," and without noting it, it becomes very easy to get the wrong idea about the whole thing. "All sex is rape" and "all PIV is rape" are two vastly different statements in the context of this politics.

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mtrimpe 270 days ago | link

Feminists fighting against trans women is a fairly well known phenomenon. Feminist and transphobic are hardly mutually exclusive worldviews.

Edit: dug up a few pointer links:

http://www.transadvocate.com/unpacking-transphobia-in-femini...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia#Transphobia_in_fem...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderi...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=transphobia+feminism

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rimantas 269 days ago | link

  > self-identified feminist
as opposed to what? Certified feminist?

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ionforce 269 days ago | link

It calls into question one's worldview as a feminist if you are busy discriminating on gender expression.

It seems logically inconsistent.

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unmole 269 days ago | link

You will find irrational extremists on either side of every political issue. In the case of gender relations, you have the religious right and MRA wackos on one extreme and the mysandric, transphobic "RadFem" fruitcakes on the other.

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Crito 269 days ago | link

Whether it is logically inconsistent depends on how you define several terms. Of course everyone is going to choose definitions that make their points of view self-consistent... so that obstacle needs to be cleared first. You very quickly fall down a relativist hole.

The best way out of that hole is to describe things literally, with as little interpretation as possible.

For example, if you interview a hypothetical person Alex, and Alex claims to be a feminist, then you could write: "Alex, a self-described feminist, ..." but should perhaps avoid writing "Alex, a feminist, ..."

The first only relies on you, the audience, and Alex agreeing on the very basics of the English language. The second implies some sort of agreement between you and Alex on what it is to be a feminist; basically you are injecting your assessment of Alex's beliefs. In the first, the audience may disagree with Alex, but they should have very little room to disagree with you. In the second, the audience disagreeing with Alex pulls you into the fray as well.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Much of "radical feminism" holds that gender isn't about expression, and that you can't switch genders as much as you can switch races. This makes people extremely uncomfortable, of course

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mtrimpe 269 days ago | link

Do you agree with the following definitions commonly used when discussing gender issues?

Sex: Assigned biological category -- male or female: designated at birth by visual assessment of anatomy based upon presumption of reproductive role.

Sexual Orientation: Term for an individual's physical and/or emotional attraction relative to their own sex such as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or straight.

Gender: The social meaning given to biological sex.

Gender Expression: External characteristics and behaviors associated with gender that are socially defined and associated with masculine or feminine. For transgender people, their gender expression doesn't match their biological sex.

Transgender: People who identify with a gender that is different from their biologically assigned gender.

Intersexed: Describes people who are born with external genitalia, chromosomes, or internal reproductive systems that are not traditionally associated with either a "standard" male or female.

Cis-gender: People who identify with the sex or gender they were assigned at birth.

Gender is generally assumed to be defined as that part of 'sexual identity' which is a social construct and hence changeable.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

When I say "gender" I mean the thing as described here (i.e. Rachel's working definition of it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot8cBm0YmXo

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detcader 269 days ago | link

You can be a human, you can be someone with the flu, but you can't really "be" a feminist, or any other political "ist", being that there's no agreed-upon definition of the word. So it's more productive to talk in terms of people "identified as" X.

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mtrimpe 269 days ago | link

Just 'Feminist and transphobic' somehow seemed wrong language-wise. That might just be because English is not my native language though, so I've edited the comment.

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danilocampos 269 days ago | link

While this may be a thing, what I have observed is that those most concerned with feminism in tech offer pretty consistent solidarity with their trans brothers and sisters. I don't believe this was invoked in good faith. Next level concern troll.

Thanks for discussing this issue and offering links, too.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Why thank them for providing you sources strictly on one side of the issue? Here's a self-identified "radical feminist" take on it: http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...

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scott_s 269 days ago | link

I think the phenomenon is brought up in discussions of sexism in the tech industry disproportionate to the degree to which it occurs. I don't think people who typically bring it up are actually concerned with the issue, but rather want to poke a stick at the notion of feminism itself.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Nice job bringing up one side of the issue. Here's the other:

http://againstallevidence.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/cant-we-a...

http://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/the-on...

http://radfemriseup.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/30-women-meet-f...

http://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/shared...

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mtrimpe 269 days ago | link

I'm not sure whether your first sentence is meant as snide, but given the quality of your posts on gender issues in general I'll assume you're just taking the opportunity to elucidate the logic behind both viewpoints.

I do have to say that as a person somewhere on the trans* spectrum some of those posts do feel rather hateful towards 'my kind' though.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

You specifically posted links equating radical feminist concerns with queer theory/transactivism with "transphobia," cheapening real transphobia, given that the links I posted (have you read them? I recommend them) illustrate that "radical feminist" desired exclusion of transwomen from conferences, etc, is not motivated by hatred, but a gender politics that doesn't have much to do with queer theory/transactivism specifically.

If you think I'm saying bigoted things (or trans*-spectrum-phobic), I'd appreciate knowing where I've done that so I can learn not to.

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mtrimpe 269 days ago | link

I simply shared two wikipedia articles on the topic to refer to a somewhat impartial source and added an article which illustrated the existence of a transphobic fringe within the feminist community.

I didn't intend to make any statement concerning exclusion or condemnation of transwomen from conferences; although it seems like you did jump to that conclusion. Neither did I explicitly mention 'radical feminism.'

As for feedback; the part that's hurtful here is that while the article I posted seems to take great care to attempt to perform a level-headed in-depth deconstruction of transphobia in the feminist community and painstakingly ensuring to criticise specific behaviour by specific people rather than the feminist community as a whole.

Many of the articles you linked invoke a variety of ad-hominems, strawmen and generally mostly seem aimed at eliciting a certain emotional response towards the trans community.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

Actual transphobia (like the rampant homophobia, specifically against lesbians, before it) in "feminist" communities is tragic, just as it is anywhere. I don't mean to excuse bigots, only to provide context for the discussion of the political exclusion of (rather than emotional, bigoted marginalization and violence against) transwomen from women-only spaces, which is the overall topic at hand here and the concern of many radical feminists.

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mtrimpe 269 days ago | link

As I suspected we're mostly on the same page then with the main difference being (if I'm correct) that I interpreted radical feminists as the subset of feminists who hold radical beliefs rather than referring to a specific 'radical feminist' belief system and its views on trans* issues (whose existence I was not aware of until now.)

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detcader 269 days ago | link

I see now, I assumed a different motivation on your part than there was in reality. I apologize.

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badman_ting 270 days ago | link

I have never heard of such a thing in a conference context, but I have seen it come up in others. And I don't think it's helpful to label such exclusion "hate", as it typically comes from women who feel that self-identifying as female is not sufficient to qualify one to be called a woman.

But it's a very complex and interesting issue, not worth bringing up here, as you note. It's brought up here to stir the pot, I seriously doubt GP actually cares about transpeople at all.

[Edited later: for what it's worth, I regret choosing the word "typically" above. "Sometimes" or "often" would have been more appropriate word choices]

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

I referred to the RadFem2012 conference[1].

>I seriously doubt GP actually cares about transpeople at all.

That's very offending.

1. http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/05/23/radfem2012-excludi...

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badman_ting 269 days ago | link

OK, so if I follow what you're saying, since RadFem2012 excluded transwomen, the Female Founders Conference probably will too? Perhaps, nawitus. Perhaps.

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mtrimpe 270 days ago | link

I agree that it's largely to stir the pot in this case, but as a gender-dysphoric bisexual male I am curious where the line would be drawn.

I'm fairly sure Jessica will just apply common sense though and would put me somewhere below full (trans-)women but above cisgendered men as far as priority goes, which would make sense.

Not that I'd be able to attend either way though; even though I would very much love to.

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dictum 269 days ago | link

> I'm fairly sure Jessica will just apply common sense though and would put me somewhere below full (trans-)women but above cisgendered men as far as priority goes, which would make sense.

Why? If anything, a heterosexual man would be more likely to benefit from a conference for female founders because his SO is a founder or wants to start a company.

(Not trying to start a flame war — I just can't see the difference between a bisexual man, a homosexual man and a heterosexual man in this context.)

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mtrimpe 269 days ago | link

The key part there is 'gender-dysphoric' which basically my identity lies somewhere in the middle between male and female.

That basically means that while I don't feel like I'm in the wrong body, I do prefer (to some degree) to socially act and be treated as a woman.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

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dictum 269 days ago | link

Sorry, I'd missed that. I had seen 'gender-dysphoric' before but didn't know the meaning of dysphoria and hadn't looked it up.

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detcader 269 days ago | link

You were born male and so have not experienced female socialization and experiences throughout your life. You have what is often called "male privilege." I'm not comfortable with my "gender" either (who is?) but I don't plan on taking up space at the conference.

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epi8 270 days ago | link

So, I understand your intent, I suppose, but a think a more pragmatic viewpoint could be beneficial. Sure, this conference is aimed at women, but many tech conferences are predominantly aimed at men, simply because that's the largest demographic who attend. This isn't hurting men in any appreciable way, and could encourage more equality later down the road.

> Some radical feminists only accept 'born as women' to their conferences.

This may be true in some rare, extreme cases, but is frankly hard to imagine. Can you cite any sources on this? My experience (though I am neither trans nor a woman) is that people involved in the feminist movement or gender-queer community try to treat a trans person as much as possible as any other person of that gender.

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mantas 269 days ago | link

How are many tech conferences "predominantly" aimed at men?By not saying they're specifically for women? So now not mentioning gender is women discrimination? Nice. Go, Equalia!

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epi8 269 days ago | link

I didn't say it was discrimination, in the same way that the conference under discussion is not discrimination. However, have you ever been to a tech conference where, say, a quarter of the attendees were women? I haven't. What I am saying is that creating at least one conference in which a woman is not unusual is not a "wrong" in the way that someone up the thread said.

I don't think it's too far-fetched to claim that conference organizers try to tailor their conference to the demographic who attends. While the vast majority of topics apply equally to men and women, there may be some topics that women will be more interested in, given their minority status in the tech world. I'm saying that it is laudable to create a conference where such topics can more easily be discussed.

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dragonwriter 269 days ago | link

> How are many tech conferences "predominantly" aimed at men? By not saying they're specifically for women?

One common argument is that conferences that are organized predominantly by men also tend to target men, even without conscious intent, because their planning, structure, and communication reflects the different ways that men are socialized in our society.

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

>So, I understand your intent, I suppose, but a think a more pragmatic viewpoint could be beneficial. Sure, this conference is aimed at women, but many tech conferences are predominantly aimed at men, simply because that's the largest demographic who attend.

I'm not necessarily against a conference aimed at women, I'm against a conference which is only for women (which this seems to be according to it's homepage). (The rules for this conference apparently are not available at this moment).

>This may be true in some rare, extreme cases, but is frankly hard to imagine. Can you cite any sources on this? My experience (though I am neither trans nor a woman) is that people involved in the feminist movement or gender-queer community try to treat a trans person as much as possible as any other person of that gender.

Sure: http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/05/23/radfem2012-excludi...

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eevilspock 269 days ago | link

Imagine you're a woman. The legislature that governs your country is more than 80% male, and that's after a lot of very recent gains by women. You feel this status quo is the direct result of historical as well as current bias against women, and bias for men. Much worse, since this legislature makes the laws and performs checks on the other branches of government, the inclusion or lack thereof of women in the legislature has concrete and far reaching impacts, such as whether congress takes seriously and pursues reports of sexual harassment and discrimination in the military, or whether abortion rights are upheld. This status quo is not simply the result of age-old and deep bias, it is a player. It perpetuates the bias and slows our evolution out of it.

It is in your interests to have a government that is representative and understands your difficulties as a woman in this society, that understands these biases and is highly motivated to undo them. You would also like your daughter and the daughters of others to one day look at that poster on the classroom wall with a solid block of 44 male presidents in a row and finally see a woman among them, because you know it has an impact on their psychology and dreams and perceptions of gender, even if only one woman among 44, even if it takes decades for that poster to change enough to erase its impact. You directly experience on a day to day basis how much women are limited by society simply due to their gender. It is also obvious that despite the ever increasing number of men who are sensitive to women's issues, it is fare easier for other women to share your understanding simply because they've lived it and have been pained by it. It is not just a abstract principle of equality for them.

Is it not rational, in fact extremely smart, to have a preference toward electing women into office, when all other factors are more or less equal or less important? As a preference, a factor in your choice, not the sole decider, you would of course vote for a man sensitive to women's issues over a traditionalist women, or a man with unknown sensitivity to women's issues over a woman who was significantly less competent or more disagreeable with you on other important issues.

Is this gender discrimination? Is it gender discrimination if said preference only lasted as long as the stilted status quo existed? Would you not be a naive idealist to stick to the notion that despite the deeply ingrained sexism in society, one should not take any active action against it other than not be sexist yourself?

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nawitus 269 days ago | link

>Is it not rational, in fact extremely smart, to have a preference toward electing women into office, when all other factors are more or less equal or less important?

If one assumes falsehoods, many irrational decisions becomes rational. For example, like the assumption that a male politician doesn't care about women's issues. In fact, I live in a country with 40% of the parliament being women, even though 60% of the voters are women. Women decide the outcome of the election, which might be one reason that men are used in forced labour but women are not.

Anyways, if the choice is between a male and a female politician who are completely identical in every respect other than gender, then it's a roll of dice - but such a situation is not realistic.

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hbags 269 days ago | link

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you lack empathy for the challenges faced by women in Silicon Valley because you're a white male whose local culture is globally famous for being tolerant and inclusive?

You haven't experienced the problems personally, and you probably haven't even seen them locally. But they're real.

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ps4fanboy 269 days ago | link

What an incredibly rude and condescending thing to say.

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camelite 269 days ago | link

I can try to imagine I'm a woman, for sure, men are capable of empathy and compassion after all, but do I have to be a feminist?

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badman_ting 270 days ago | link

> Gender discrimination means that one gender is treated differently from another.

Yes, it does. Think on that more deeply.

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loceng 270 days ago | link

Are you trying to imply two wrongs makes a right?

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epi8 270 days ago | link

I don't know about the person to whom you are replying, but in my opinion, in this case, two wrongs make a right, if you can call hosting a conference aimed at an under-represented group a "wrong". Sure, in a perfect world, we wouldn't want or need such conferences, but in this world, we should strive for the best equality we can manage and not limit ourselves by blind idealism.

If in the future, women and men are equally represented in STEM fields, then we can have a discussion about whether such conferences have outlived their purpose. But since that is not the case today, I think that trying to rectify the imbalances in a reasonable, non-confrontational way that doesn't harm anyone is laudable.

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loceng 269 days ago | link

First most I was trying to get clarification as to what the person meant with their comment, as what my comment was is how I interpreted their comment.

I am not for or against such a conference, though ideally they're not needed - however if there's enough of a specific interest then business-minded people will try to create a conference to leverage that interest and try to make profits from that common interest - nothing wrong with that - just stating it for the point of that conferences for X,Y,Z group will always end up existing.

I think the solution is to shift the power structures that have been sustained, and are perpetuated, by most of our culture's current societal structures - and so everyone - poorer women and men, any minority, have the same chance of making their way into "power." Unfortunately I have to get back to work before I start writing a mini-essay going into more depth..

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rimantas 269 days ago | link

What makes you think that 50:50 representation in given field is "the correct" one?

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epi8 268 days ago | link

Nothing, and I'm not sure what the "correct" representation would be. However, I do not believe the representation we have now indicates a field with an equal barrier for entry for a man and a woman who have the same skill set, motivation, and intelligence.

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badman_ting 269 days ago | link

You think this conference is wrong? Why?

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loceng 269 days ago | link

I haven't read anything about the conference, other than from the title, it seems to be geared towards women. That's fine - just hoping men aren't ban from it, and wouldn't be ridiculed or outcast if they did attend.

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badman_ting 269 days ago | link

Yes, it would be a shame if people attending a tech-related conference were treated harshly due to their gender.

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